Joe Rogan: The Truth About Aliens (He Finally Says It)

Our American Alchemist this week is Joe Rogan. Sign Up With Our Sponsors Below For Exclusive Alchemy Deals! Visit https://ketone.com/ALCHEMY for 30% OFF your subscription order PLUS receive a free gift with your second shipment—or find Ketone-IQ at Target stores nationwide and get your first shot free! Take control of your cellular health today. Go to https://qualialife.com/JESSE to get 50% off and save an extra 15% with the code JESSE. Absolutely mind-blowing interview with my friend, the legend Joe Rogan. We discuss Alien Contact and what that might look like in the not-too-far future, UFO secrecy and crash retrieval programs and new transparency around both, the AI/Quantum “apocalypse”, advanced ancient civilizations that may have been destroyed in a cataclysm with the Younger Dryas Impact (but with possible remnants under our oceans :)), the truth about what’s buried under the pyramids, the facts around Epstein and what actually happened with JFK’s assasination. Basically, we cover every fucking crazy “conspiracy” under the sun -- and show that many of them are in fact much more than your tin-foil hat fabrications. Joe does all of it with a level of rigor yet lightness and humor that only he can pull off and that make his show, JRE, the highest inspiration for me and so many coming up in independent media and podcasting. Finally, Joe gets real about a dream he had that he describes as the “most fucking vivid dream” he’s ever had involving what felt like “humans from the future”. Shit got wild. This was absolutely surreal. Thank you, Joe!! 🐐 -------------------------- Winter Season Merchandise Drop! ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine (New!) ➤ https://substack.com/@americanalchemymagazine JOIN OUR WHOP (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Patreon (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://www.patreon.com/c/JesseMichels Discord ➤https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Website ➤ https://www.jesse-michels.com/ Merchandise ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction 02:26 Joe's Dream 13:50 Search For Truth 19:32 Ads 22:46 Age of Disclosure 35:25 Technology and Consciousness 46:43 Early Podcasting Days 49:30 The Pyramids & Cataclysms 1:01:38 Human Evolution 1:12:11 Psychedelics 1:25:37 DMT 1:35:32 The Moon Landing 2:00:50 Tridactyl Mummies 2:04:07 The Current Paradigm Shift 2:13:30 The Epstein Conspiracy 2:23:45 JFK Conspiracy 2:36:10 Alien Abductions 2:42:09 Lost History & The Future of Humanity 2:49:02 Jesus & Artificial Intelligence 2:54:40 Religion & The Nature of Reality 2:59:48 Joe's Hope For Alien Contact 3:04:48 Outro Thanks to Reel Ghost Studios in Los Angeles for helping build our new set! www.reelghoststudios.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Oh my god, this is so sick.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  They were very clearly trying to scare me and then play. We were just kidding. Everything was like, "Ah!" Whoa, just messing around. And it sounds insane that people could live for 30,000 years, but it doesn't. Here's why it doesn't.

• 0:57Speaker 02

  There's real evidence that there's structures under the pyramids that might go as deep as 2 kilometers.

• 1:03Jesse Michels?

  That look like an energy grid.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  With columns and coils around the columns. I'm like, "What?"

• 1:11Jesse Michels?

  Everybody who studies this says the cherry on top are the pyramids, but it's really this underground city that they're studying.

• 1:18Speaker 02

  There's a 40-meter object that's in that labyrinth, that's in some vast corridor, that's metallic. It's a [bleep] UFO.

• 1:29Jesse Michels?

  And now we have three-fingered mummies in Peru.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  We might have actual evidence that there's another species that shares this planet with us. The same problem that we have with UAP disclosure is the same problem you have with the Epstein files.

• 1:41Jesse Michels?

  Who do you think runs our government?

• 1:43Speaker 02

  Nixon apparently had been saying, "I know who killed JFK, and I know why they did it."

• 1:49Jesse Michels?

  And then you have people like Elon Musk on, who are, "They run SpaceX." You would think he would be completely privy to all of our UFO secrets.

• 1:57Speaker 02

  He's a sly dog. He's my homie, but he's a sly dog.

• 2:02Jesse Michels?

  If he was debating, like, in a room with David Grush on your show... The CIA guy was like, "Look at the Grush stuff, quantum and AI. Do you think there's something happening where all these trends are converging now simultaneously? And it's not a coincidence?"

• 2:20Speaker 02

  When we achieve sentience with artificial general superintelligence, that is the legitimate gateway to the cosmos. And if you really want to get weird, that might be how God gets formed. Like, God might be a real thing. That might be how God gets formed. And that might be the whole reason why human beings have curiosity and this insatiable desire for technological innovation. Jesus was born out of a virgin mother. What's more virgin than a computer?

• 2:56Jesse Michels?

  This is beyond surreal. I've had some surreal moments on this show, but I think this tops them all. Joe, I really appreciate you being here, man. I don't think I would have a show if it weren't for the thousands of hours of insights I've gleaned from your show. And you don't have to do this, and you do stuff like this all the time. And it just means so much to me that you're here. So I really, really appreciate you.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  Well, it's my pleasure. I really love your show. So it's exciting for me to be here.

• 3:25Jesse Michels?

  Means a lot, man. Well, I want to actually start with, you had a dream.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:32Jesse Michels?

  And this was a few weeks ago. You had Brett Weinstein on, great evolutionary biologist. And you started off the episode with this trippy dream you had. You want to describe it?

• 3:41Speaker 02

  It was the weirdest dream I've ever had in my life because it was the most realistic dream and is the only dream that I can ever remember. I sleep really well. Like, I'm one of those guys, I can go to sleep on a pile of rocks. I can always sleep. It drives my wife crazy because she has a hard time sleeping and I could just cock out. I could not go back to sleep. It's the only dream I can remember that I couldn't go back to sleep. I don't think I've ever had that happen to me before. Well, I woke up at like 3:00 in the morning, or whatever it was, and I was like, "I'm up now." Like, there's no way. I laid in bed, I think, for like an hour, and then I just went to the gym. I was like, "There's no way I'm going back to sleep." It was very strange. It was very strange because it it was like, what is this?

• 4:25Speaker 02

  It wasn't like a regular dream like, oh, you're dreaming. It seems like vague and weird and kind of, um, you know, opaque. It was vivid. Hmm. It was very strange. And there was these very slender, tall, human-like things that were talking to me. They weren't gray. They were kind of like pinkish, like us. They were, you know, like Caucasian looking creatures. But they were messing with me like they they scared me and they're like, ah, we're just playing around.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  And so they were doing some, there was some weird kind of communication, telling me to relax. And, um, the environment was very different, too. It was very vivid. It was like some sort of a corridor, but it didn't seem normal. It seemed very strange. Like, I remember the walls were lit very weird. And I also remember that there was some sort of water and reptilian element to this. Like they were letting me know, like, almost like they had barriers that were very sloppy that were keeping these things out. But they were doing their best.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  They had people or beings like monitoring the and feeding these things and keeping them out. And I was like, what? What is going on here? And it's like, is this telling me that they're doing their best to keep something from getting to us, but that it's not that secure? That it's kind of precarious and a lot more unstable than we would like to think it is? Hmm. I don't know what that was all about. That was a, that part of it was really weird. That part of it was. More dreamlike, but the communication with them and the interaction with them was very, very vivid. It was really strange.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  They had larger eyes than a normal human and a larger head, but not crazy. Like, not like a gray from Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Kind of a little bit like that guy up there.

• 6:43Jesse Michels?

  Oh, interesting.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Not quite so big, but like a large head with a very small jaw. And larger eyes than normal, but they were smiling. God, I can't remember if they had teeth. I think they had teeth. I can't remember.

• 7:00Jesse Michels?

  Does any part of you think this actually happened?

• 7:02Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 7:03Jesse Michels?

  Or do you think it was just a dream?

• 7:03Speaker 02

  Wow. You know, I don't want to be that guy that like, oh, I know it was real because I don't.

• 7:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  I was dreaming. I was sleeping.

• 7:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  But it was the most vivid dream I've ever had in my life.

• 7:15Jesse Michels?

  I was telling you outside, you're wearing this epic Betty and Barney Hill.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Oh, geez.

• 7:19Jesse Michels?

  Oh, geez. First abductees, 1961.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  No, I know his granddaughter.

• 7:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, she Angela Hill, right? She's a UFC fighter?

• 7:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:27Jesse Michels?

  So cool.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 7:28Jesse Michels?

  What does she say?

• 7:29Speaker 02

  She did my podcast and didn't tell me. Until after the podcast was over.

• 7:33Jesse Michels?

  You don't tell Joe Rogan?

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Her grandfather was Barney Hill. I was like, no, that's mad. That's so crazy.

• 7:40Jesse Michels?

  Did you not say, let's go back in and record?

• 7:42Speaker 02

  No, it was already too late when we wrapped it up and everything. I should have, though. I should have.

• 7:47Jesse Michels?

  You gotta have her back.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I should have. I should have done it then.

• 7:50Jesse Michels?

  That is wild.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  Looking back, that was a mistake.

• 7:54Jesse Michels?

  Well, I thought, because you wore this, I think, on the Gavin DeBecker episode, which is a crazy episode. Everybody should go watch this episode. This guy protects like the most important people in the world.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:05Jesse Michels?

  And he's going through all these crazy CIA conspiracies.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:09Jesse Michels?

  Basically talks about Fauci's role in the AIDS epidemic as kind of analogous to what he did around COVID. A lot of the, the- You know, being kind of the same.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Very same, very similar.

• 8:22Jesse Michels?

  And you're hearing it from this guy who like protects incredibly important people, does risk assessments for these, you know, massive events.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:29Jesse Michels?

  Wild.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, very wild. Yeah. But yeah, he didn't know what this was.

• 8:34Jesse Michels?

  I thought you were maybe, I thought you were maybe signaling to the audience like, maybe I got abducted or something.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  No, I don't think I got abducted. Um, I don't even know if I got contacted. It just might've been the craziest dream. And to me, because I'm so into the whole UAP, UFO, alien phenomenon, that maybe, you know, maybe it was just very vivid because of that. It's just very odd for me to not be able to go back to sleep. That never happens. I can sleep no matter what. It's weird.

• 9:04Jesse Michels?

  Well, so whatever it was, it had kind of a disproportionate impact on your psyche.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:09Jesse Michels?

  It was a big part of your subconscious.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  It was, it was tangible. It was, it was like, when I woke up, I was like, what was that? It wasn't like, whoa, that dream was fucked. I've had before. I had last night, I had a crazy dream last night, but it was a normal dream. It was just, I got up to bed and I was like, what the hell was that? I went right back to bed. This, I was not going to sleep, man. I laid in bed for a full hour, just trying to go to sleep. And then I said, all right, I'm up. Let's just go to the gym. And I'm in the gym and I'm trying to decide, because I knew I had Brett Weinstein on the podcast. And I was like, I have to just say this immediately, like, because we're going to get into so many different subjects.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  There's no way I'm going to work this in. Like, I just have to get to this right away because I just had to sort of document it while it was only a few hours old, what was fresh.

• 10:04Jesse Michels?

  And some dreams are like, you wake up from them and you're like still in the dream a little bit. You have to like, kind of get it. There's something cathartic about retelling it or something.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it was weird, man. I don't know what it was.

• 10:16Jesse Michels?

  You said you thought they were beings from the future, maybe?

• 10:19Speaker 02

  That's what, if I had to guess, like what they are, they seemed like what we will be. You know, like we are, as time goes on, uh, you know, if you look at ancient hominids versus modern humans, our heads are larger, our bodies are smaller, they're more slender, there's no need for muscle, there's no need to physically move things. These, these things seem very slim. They seem very slim and um, God, I, I, I wanna say they had, th- they weren't naked, right? But they had like some sort of a suit on, but they were very genderless. Like there was no defining, that's a boy, that one's a girl. There was none of that.

• 11:04Jesse Michels?

  Which feels like where humanity is kind of headed.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, which I, you know, look, I like being a man. And I like women. I think they're fun. You know, I like, I like the contrast. I like, it's fun having a variety of different kinds of people. But it causes problems, right? Because we have these procreation, reproduction instincts. Uh, we have primate instincts to be tribal, to uh, acquire resources, to, you know, to dominate and to, to be untrustful of others. There's a lot of stuff that's, it makes hu- being a human kinda cool, because out of that you get art and you get incredible history and like

• 11:50Speaker 02

  amazing architecture and all these things, but it also, uh, there's, it's a fork in the road. Like that is the kind of the bottleneck as a human being is our natural biological reproduction.

• 12:05Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  Cause it, it lends itself to all these things that you see like when bears fight over, you know, a breeding female or when You know, when you hear see deers clash antlers together, like, what are they doing? They're battling over who gets to breed.

• 12:20Jesse Michels?

  Totally.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  I think that's a lot of what humans do, and then we do it in weird ways. Like, we acquire immense amounts of financial wealth, or, you know, the fanciest watch and the fanciest car, and you try to look like someone who's someone who we want to mate with. And that's really all it is, is like, men and women want to be desired by the opposite sex, or the same sex, if that's what you're into. But it's that, that procreation thing is what fuels a lot of our bullshit, and a lot of our inability to get along, a lot of conflict, and a lot, I mean, a lot of acquiring resources through horrific and barbaric ways, and dominating countries and invading. That's what it's all about. It's a, it's a lot of it is just about breeding.

• 13:06Jesse Michels?

  And it's, it is that, like, limbic reptilian part of ourselves that does that. And so I wondered, not to, like, do a full Jungian analysis of this dream, but it's like, they're holding these reptilians at, at bay, in the water or something, and maybe there's something.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  It seemed very symbolic, whatever it was, because it was the only part of the dream that was kind of vague. Like, they were kind of like crocodiles or something, but it was weird, like, they were feeding them, but they had, like, flimsy barriers in front of these things to keep, and they were, like, keeping them. It was almost like letting me know, like, this is, you're really close to getting fucked up. And we're, we're doing our best to stop this from happening. But it was, that's just me reading into it. But whatever, whatever it was, they were very clearly trying to scare me and then play. We were just kidding. Everything was like, ah, whoa, just messing around. There was a couple of those moments where I was like, okay, what are you trying to do? Are you trying to get me accustomed to interacting with you?

• 14:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  Like, what is this? Because I was very weirded out. And I think they, they're, whatever they were wearing, because I think they were wearing something. But they were, like I said, they were very genderless. Whatever they were wearing was the same color as their skin, so it was strange.

• 14:21Jesse Michels?

  You've been asked a lot about your childhood. Everybody knows you were four years in a row Taekwondo champion. That discipline brought you to where you are today in many ways. Everybody knows you're UFO obsessed now.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:34Jesse Michels?

  Was there a moment in childhood where you kind of got alien-pilled, or saw something, or?

• 14:40Speaker 02

  No, unfortunately, I never saw anything.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  I wish. I kinda thought I did maybe when I was young, but I think it was probably a fighter jet. Um, when the, from the time I was little, I would look up at the stars and I would just think, well, clearly this can't be the only planet that has life on it. Like that doesn't even make any sense. And then, you know, going to school and you learn how many hundreds of billions of galaxies there are. You're like, whoa, and how many hundreds of billions of stars are on those galaxies? And how many planets there must be like, for sure, there's something else out here, but would they be interested in us? Would they visit? And, you know, then I got really into Project Blue Book and I read a lot of the stuff on Jay Allen Hynek. And, you know, and all the Philip Corso stuff and the stuff from Roswell.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  And I just became obsessed with reading and watching whatever flimsy documentaries were available back then. You know, and then I think I really got back because I was always on the fence like, oh, this is nonsense. This is real. This is not, it's not helping me. Let me just go about my life. And then really Jeremy Corbell's, uh, Roswell, um, excuse me, um, uh, Area 51 Bob Lazar documentary. This is what really brought me back in.

• 15:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And that ended up being one of your most iconic episodes. I believe it's like your second or third.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  It might be the biggest. It might be the highest one on YouTube. I think it has like 63 million views on YouTube.

• 16:08Jesse Michels?

  It's so crazy.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  That one's nuts. That one's nuts, especially considering from that interview, which was, uh, what was that? 2000, maybe 18 or something like that, whatever it was, more and more has come out that substantiates what he said and confirms a lot of the stuff that he was talking about in the 1980s. Into in terms of the design of these crafts, how they manipulate gravity around them and how they move through space with a very strange propulsion system. And that's what we're hearing over and over again now from these whistleblowers and from these people like Hal Puthoff and all these people that allegedly have information

• 16:50Speaker 02

  about these back engineering programs that this is, what he's saying is very accurate.

• 16:55Jesse Michels?

  And it's almost like you broke the most gnarly story there was and a lot of these kind of people who are now in the forefront of disclosure are trying to play catch up in some ways because you have a guy who's claiming to have reverse engineered

• 17:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:08Jesse Michels?

  raft firsthand.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:10Jesse Michels?

  And now you have people, you know, saying, you know, we do have biologics, we have, you know, you have David Grush.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:17Jesse Michels?

  Giving 40 firsthand, you know, whistleblowers to the inspector general of the intelligence community, Thomas Monheim, and he says it's urgent and credible. It's this crazy sort of groundswell, but in many ways, we're playing catch up to this guy who was like there at Area 51 in the 80s.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  You know, they've tried to discredit him in many different ways. They tried to say, first of all, they tried to say that he never worked at Los Alamos, but that's been confirmed.

• 17:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  And then they tried to say that he was never at Area S4 or Area 51 Site 4, but he was there and he knew it. He knew the layout.

• 17:46Jesse Michels?

  Everything.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  He knew people that worked there, people that did work there also confirmed that he worked there.

• 17:50Speaker 04

  Originally, I told you, you know, when I worked there, I was on the front page of the paper. So they were still able to archive, you know, bring that back from the archives and, you know, Bob Lazar, a physicist working here at Los Alamos. So there was at least something there, but somehow George came up with the phone directory.

• 18:10Speaker 05

  And then George, then Bob took George with cameras into Los Alamos.

• 18:14Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. So we flew out there and I said, look, come on in. I'll show you where I worked. We'll go in, we'll meet people and George went with me.

• 18:22Jesse Michels?

  Janet Airlines, which takes you back and forth between Vegas and Area 51. Area 51 wasn't even really in the public zeitgeist.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 18:29Jesse Michels?

  Until he came out with it.

• 18:31Speaker 02

  It actually wasn't even confirmed until the Obama administration because the Obama administration, they wanted to expand the barriers for entry or where people were allowed to access the land because too many people were getting to non-secure land and taking video. So they were filming and taking photographs allegedly of these crafts. And so they wanted to make it a little bit wider. And so they had to confirm that it existed.

• 18:58Jesse Michels?

  So wild. I think we're gonna, so there's a buddy of mine's making a documentary with Bob Lazar. It's called Project Gravitar. And I think we're gonna get a lot more confirmation and data points that corroborates his story or interview of him. I think we're gonna find out that S4 is very real too. And that's been denied up until today.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  But we do have satellite images of S4.

• 19:21Jesse Michels?

  Do we?

• 19:21Speaker 02

  I believe so.

• 19:22Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  I believe there's images of the land itself and you can

• 19:26Jesse Michels?

  Cause it's underground.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  But yeah, but there's the outside of it where the hangers are. I'm pretty sure you could actually get it online.

• 19:33Jesse Michels?

  Okay, okay.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  It might be bullshit.

• 19:35Jesse Michels?

  Okay, okay.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  I'm pretty sure there is an overhead, like where you could see, oh, there's something there.

• 19:40Jesse Michels?

  Okay. Well, so, okay. If it's the same thing I'm thinking of, then he has that data. But it's like stuff they tried to cover up on Google Earth.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 19:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's like that Point Doom alien base that they erased or whatever.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is weird.

• 19:56Jesse Michels?

  Weird.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  That's so weird because they blurred out the ground.

• 19:59Jesse Michels?

  Yup.

• 20:00Speaker 02

  In the water.

• 20:01Jesse Michels?

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• 22:01Jesse Michels?

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• 23:16Speaker 02

  I had Dan Farah on the podcast yesterday.

• 23:18Jesse Michels?

  How was that?

• 23:19Speaker 02

  It was great. For people who don't know, Dan made this new documentary, The Age of Disclosure, which is excellent. It's one of the very best documentaries on the whole UAP, UFO phenomenon that I think I've ever seen. And there's no real footage in it, maybe a couple of minutes of footage of like the Go Fast or the Gimbal, but really, most of what it's about is high level intelligence operatives explaining what they know.

• 23:44Jesse Michels?

  Extremely high level. People like Woolsey and James Clapper, like these guys who are like DNI level, like overseeing all of the intel agencies, Brennan, you know, all these people.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  And Marco Rubio, to his credit, I think him, his involvement was huge, you know, because it's the current administration, his involvement, and his urgency.

• 24:09Speaker 06

  Schumer, Rubio, all those guys are like, look, a bunch of freaking high level officers came to us, and either they're crazy, or this shit's real.

• 24:18Speaker 07

  Most of these people at some point, or maybe even currently, have held very high clearances and high positions within our government.

• 24:25Speaker 02

  So this is one of the things that Dan and I talked about. He firmly believes that both the United States and China has retrieved these crashed vehicles, and that they are also in this back engineering program. They're in a back engineering program of their own, and there is a race. And he's, you know, people talk about it like it's the Manhattan Project on steroids, but I've heard that about AI too, right? But which might also be true. And they might also be connected in some way. I think what Rubio is concerned with is that China develops this technology first. And the only way that the United States is really going to catch up is if we open this up. And we open it up and remove all

• 25:08Speaker 02

  the ridicule, because forever, like, I'm a silly person, so it's easy to make fun of me. And I don't mind. I mean, literally, professional comedian. So I'll say stupid shit and not worry, like, oh, people are gonna think you're an idiot. I'm like, I'll tell you I'm an idiot. You don't have to like, look to see if I'm an idiot.

• 25:24Jesse Michels?

  I think you're much smarter than you give yourself credit for.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  Listen, I know really smart people. It's relative.

• 25:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  It's all relative.

• 25:31Jesse Michels?

  You got that like that general breadth of knowledge, like not too many people are at your level, man.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's it's also, you know what it's like? It's like people say like, oh, man, you must be an amazing fighter. I'm like, listen, I work for the UFC. I'm around dudes who can kill me every single day I work there. Every one of them could kill me, no questions asked. Like compared to a regular person, yeah. But to an untrained person, that's how I look at intelligence. It's like, am I, I'm not as dumb as the dumbest people I know. But I know Elon's a friend of mine, you know what I mean? I mean, I'm friends with a lot of like very brilliant people. There's levels to this thing, you know? Like I had Palmer Lucky on the podcast. Yeah, you start talking to me, go, oh, okay. Well, there's levels to this, you know, and there's really fucking smart people in this world, and I'm not one of them.

• 26:18Speaker 02

  But I I'm smart enough to know what I know, and I'm smart enough to not be afraid of people thinking that I'm not smart. So the the subject has always been like very ridiculed and this. And you could like really fumble your career if you went out and said, if you were a journalist or if you were like a legitimate author or like, like look at Whitley Strieber.

• 26:46Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  I don't know what happened to that dude.

• 26:48Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  But I know that everybody like sort of dismisses him as a kook in the real literature world. Because he's this guy who made these movies and books about being abducted by aliens. What? You know what I mean? So you immediately get this like smell of kook that's on you. And I think Marco Rubio talking about this and and and explaining like, this is what I've been told. This is what I know. This is a real thing. There are vehicles the size of a football field that are moving through the ocean at 500 knots. We have no idea where they're going. You know, Tim Burchett recently said that there's, they've identified five areas in the oceans of the world where these things are coming out of on a regular basis.

• 27:33Speaker 08

  We have a higher propensity of sightings around these five or six, I believe. Deep area, deep water areas.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  So you've got these people talking about this and it's slowly but surely removing that layer of ridicule. And that layer of ridicule ridicule is powerful, man. People don't like to be thought of as a fool, you know, and I think that holds us back. And if the United States, like if, first of all, they're going to need some sort of an amnesty thing. This is one of the things that we talked about. They're going to need, because for sure, there was lying to Congress, for sure, there's misappropriation of funds and probably some corruption. Like when you have no oversight, billions, if not a trillion dollars, like for sure, somebody got some money they shouldn't have got. You're going to have to make all

• 28:25Speaker 02

  that okay. You're going to have to say, in the interest of national security and the future of the human race, fuck all that. You're going to have to do that. And if they don't do that, we're going to have a real problem because these gatekeepers are going to continue to gatekeep because their lives depend on this. If they, if they release this, they could find themselves in jail without any amnesty, in jail for the rest of their lives. Like, we don't know how much money was spent. We don't know how much lying to Congress there was. We have no idea how many felonies there were. We don't have no idea. Let's assume that crash retrieval programs were real and that back engineering programs were successful. So you're not going to give this stuff evenly to all these different defense contractors. So if you give one defense contractor, one object, and all of a sudden

• 29:10Speaker 02

  they have this massive advantage, and then the other defense contractor winds up going under, as many of them have gone out of business. Well, now you have a major lawsuit on your hands. You know, you have all sorts of, and then probably people are going to go to jail if it's a just legal system.

• 29:25Jesse Michels?

  A hundred percent. Yeah. And for, I think, the cynics out there who might just want to put a minus sign against anybody coming from the intelligence world and saying things, we're not even necessarily being idealistic about their motivations. We're just saying that it's probably national security runs the day. And that this might be the Manhattan Project 2.0. If you think about it, the first Manhattan Project was payload potency. Bigger and bigger bombs. And there's even a scene in Oppenheimer where he's criticizing Teller because he's like, there is no target big enough for the, the H-bomb's way too big. And so beyond that, it's all about payload delivery. It's all about the stuff, you know, ICBMs into stealth fighters into whatever the hell they're working with now.

• 30:07Jesse Michels?

  And if they do have this technology, obviously they're going to open it up. And as much as I can be cynical and, and anybody who's into UFOs is probably cynical about the intel world.

• 30:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:17Jesse Michels?

  It kind of makes sense that they'd let this stuff out now because they, there is this arms race or whatever.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  There's a race going on with both, let's assume that, that stories are correct and that back engineering is real. Let's assume that they have recovered crafts. So there is a race with that. But then maybe even more critically and completely connected is the AI race. Because I feel like that is the legitimate gateway to the cosmos. I feel like when we achieve sentience with artificial general superintelligence, when it has the ability to make better versions of itself, when it has the ability to devise new methods of power,

• 31:03Speaker 02

  new, new ways of using resources that we never even imagined, just like we have now that they never imagined in the 1400s, you know? And I think it's going to happen very, very quickly. So if there is a back engineering program and then maybe there's some hurdles that we just can't get over, like I, how did they do this? Like, how is it possible to do that? Well, AI is probably going to figure out a possible way that it could be done and what possible inventions could be made to facilitate this possible thing. And they'll probably just go, go ahead and start doing it. And when you have AI and then you have. The incomprehensible power of quantum computing, which is so baffling.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  It's so baffling that you go, wait a minute, what the fuck did you just say? One of the more recent ones, uh, I believe it's the Google one. They solved an equation that would take the world's supercomputers. I think it was 2.6 billion years to solve and it solved it in a matter of minutes.

• 32:07Jesse Michels?

  It's so crazy. And then the Willow chip, they say the multiverse has to exist.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Yes. What does that mean? The only way for it to solve this problem. Mark Andreessen said it on my podcast. He said, the equation is so difficult to solve that if you took every atom in the universe and converted it to a supercomputer, the universe would die of heat death. Before it would solve this equation and it solved it in minutes. So like, what are we even talking about? Now, now imagine that being connected to artificial general superintelligence, which is essentially a digital god.

• 32:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 32:42Speaker 02

  You're going to make this thing that makes a better version of this thing. It's going to be exponential. It's going to happen very rapidly. Well, what's the end of that? What's the end of that is all powerful, all knowing. And if you really want to get weird, that might be how God gets formed. I mean, that, that literally like God might be a real thing. That might be how God gets formed. And that might be the whole reason why human beings have curiosity and this insatiable desire for technological innovation. And not just to stay alive, not just to make better stuff, but, but this is why, because that if you just follow it out to its natural course, that's going to lead to an artificial life.

• 33:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I've heard you say that a lot before, that like our consumptive

• 33:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:27Jesse Michels?

  patterns are almost built in to want more and more and more. And then we have to produce more and more in step. And we're like creating this god outside of ourselves.

• 33:37Speaker 02

  Like, think about materialism. It's foolishness. You have a finite lifespan and you have people in their eighties like. Trying to acquire immense wealth when they already have immense wealth. Like Warren Buffett's still in the game. You know what I mean? Like, he's worth billions of dollars. He's in his eighties and he's still out there trading and moving. Like, what is that about? Why would you want more stuff? Why would you want more money and more stuff? Because nothing fuels technological innovation like the market. And in order for the market to be successful, you have to be obsessed. Like, I have the iPhone 16 and this motherfucker is starting to mess up on me because the 17 is out. The battery is a lot slower. It's like it burns through the battery quicker.

• 34:22Speaker 02

  Sometimes it glitches on me. I'm like, you didn't glitch for a whole year, bitch. It's like, it's wired in that you want the newest one. You want the latest one. And Apple's been accused of that. Planned obsolescence. Yeah, and it is, it's true. They've admitted to it and they've done it under the guise of, oh, well, you know, when the, the older ones, the batteries decay. We're trying to preserve the battery. Like, shut up. Just let the battery die, bitch. Don't monkey with my phone. But it's like this, I, I have an iPhone 11 that I've had forever and I, I keep it because a, a good friend of mine who died, he left me a voicemail and it's on that. Oh, man. Um, and that phone works great. Like, it's works the same. It works, I don't need a new phone, but I'm going to get a new one every year because I'm a dumbass.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  And we're all dumbasses and we're all buying the newest TVs and the newest laptops. And, oh, the new ThinkPad came out with a touchscreen and you're gonna keep doing that. And, and that, if you just follow that, if everyone's doing that, what does that do? It makes better stuff. If you looked at the human race from an outside perspective, if you were a life form from somewhere else, like, okay, what are they doing? What is the predominant, what is the dominant life force on this planet do? It makes better things. That's all it does. It's like a worker bee that doesn't know why it's making a hive. It's just making better things all the time, obsessed with making better things. You should stop your need for accumulating objects and stop your need for, you know, a, a big car and a big house

• 35:47Speaker 02

  and find out something that you actually love to do and figure out a way to do it for a living.

• 35:54Speaker 00

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• 36:54Speaker 10

  I had a very smart guy named Matthew Pines on my podcast, and he said, he was speaking to some CIA guy. And the CIA guy was like, it's a triangle.

• 37:06Speaker 10

  AI, quantum, and the Grush stuff.

• 37:08Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 37:09Speaker 10

  That was it. And we were in an environment where I couldn't and want to press too much into the issue. And I didn't have, it wasn't like this sort of sit-down where it's like we could go for hours. So that was basically where it sort of landed. And I've been chewing on that for a while. AI, quantum, and the Grush stuff.

• 37:29Jesse Michels?

  That's wild. And do you think all of this is like? And he was like, if all of those three things seem to converge, it's like this kind of consciousness apotheosis thing, kind of what you're saying.

• 37:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:41Jesse Michels?

  Do you think there's something happening where all these trends are converging now simultaneously? And it's not a coincidence? Like UFO disclosure is happening at the time of deep fakes. It's so weird, right?

• 37:54Speaker 02

  I think that's all on purpose. Yeah, I think that's a part of the fun of the experience that we're going through. Because it is a tangible experience. I believe life is real. I believe this table is real. I believe in reality, but I don't think reality is as clearly defined as we like to believe it is. I think reality is dependent a lot on consciousness and some sort of a strange... In indescribable way to a conscious person. I don't, I don't, I don't think it's, I don't think it's very binary. I don't think it's ones and zeros. I think it's slippery. And I think it, it's dependent upon a lot of things. Yeah.

• 38:38Speaker 02

  There's a lot going on. And, um, and it's also, I always wonder like, what is, what is my, what is my experience? What is my trip? What is my journey through this world? Like, why? Why do I have all these weird things that have happened to me that have led me to be who I am today? Like, is that a design? Because if it's not a design, well, if you wanted to make someone like me, that's how you do it. You do it exactly that way. But I want to pretend that, oh, this is all just, you know, it's like the, it's like determinism versus free will. I think both. I think both are, they're intertwined. I don't think it's that clear. And I think

• 39:19Speaker 02

  your experience is very different than my experience and all of our experiences are all tied in together. And I really believe, as strange as it sounds, it's towards this one goal. And I think this one goal is the advancement of the human species. And, um,

• 39:39Speaker 02

  I think we all play a role, just like microbes play a role in the environment and plants play a role in the environment. And so does sunlight and so does wind, all these, but you parse them out and you look at them as individuals. You look, oh, the wind does this and it carries the clouds. But it's all together like an equation. It's driving things in a very specific way. And I, I, I really believe that our trip, that our experience is a very unique one. The people that are living right now, that are hearing this currently, in the future, they might look back at this and go, boy, they fucking, they were so wrong. Or they nailed it, you know, one of those. But I think

• 40:23Speaker 02

  we are all purposely building towards something. And I think that something is, it has the echoes of religious texts. I think that the, you know, the origin story of the human race from various religions. I think that is, that is. That these, all these stories where there's interactions with like the Book of Enoch, the watchers that came down and bred with men and created the Nephilim like,

• 40:59Speaker 02

  doesn't that sound like genetic engineering? Like if bred with, like had sex with men? What, what do you mean? Like, what is that? So you mean, take their genes and introduce them to ours? Well, if you're a dummy who lived 6,000 years ago and you're trying to recall a 5,000 year old story.

• 41:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  That's probably how it presents itself. If you've had 5,000 years of barbarism since the Younger Dryas impact. So you have advanced civilizations, which is what I believe. I'm in the Randall Carlson, Graham Hancock school. I don't think this is our first go around. I think ancient Egypt is a great testament to that. I think there was some sort of an advanced civilization that was on a different pathway than we are. We're on this electronic internal combustion engine pathway. They were on a different pathway. But I think they achieved the similar, if not greater, level of technology and the ability to manipulate matter. What they've, just what they've done with the pyramids and like, people try, they do their best to come up with some explanations.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  They're all dumb. Every, every explanation sucks. They suck. And they hate it when you say that and they get angry and people were smart back then. Sure. But only these people, only these people were like 6,000 years ago, we, we agree that people were dumb and they didn't even have steel yet. Like, what are we doing?

• 42:18Jesse Michels?

  And the, the contrast, the stark contrast between, between Zahih Hawass, who you had on, the former minister of culture in Egypt, and somebody like a Randall Carlson or a Graham Hancock, who are so articulate, so smart. And I think, you know,

• 42:35Jesse Michels?

  You're constantly, I think, playing down your intelligence, but I think because you can deal with stigma, because you can play with what other people consider misinformation. The whole world now thinks that Charles Manson was an MKUltra patient because you knew Greg Fitzsimmons, who knew Tom O'Neill, which is crazy. So like, in some ways, I think you're leading academia. Like, I think the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis, which was, I think, presented in 2007 for the first time, is now really starting to become more of an accepted thing. Before that, it was, you know, Luis Walter Alvarez saying that the dinosaurs, you know, due to a comet impact 66 million years ago. That was a thing. Nobody took him seriously.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:16Jesse Michels?

  And so, in the stark contrast between a gatekeeper like Zahi Was, which some people call your worst podcast of all time.

• 43:23Speaker 02

  It was the worst. It was the worst.

• 43:26Speaker 11

  I discovered, I discovered, I discovered, I discovered, and I discovered major important things.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  Are they online?

• 43:34Speaker 11

  No, in my book.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Are there photos of this?

• 43:36Speaker 11

  Of course, in my book. It's in my book. It's in my book. If you go to my book, I don't go online. Why I have to go online? I go to my book. Can you kind of introduce me here in Houston?

• 43:44Speaker 02

  Excuse me? Can I introduce you in Houston? No, I cannot.

• 43:47Speaker 11

  Why?

• 43:48Speaker 02

  Because I'm very busy.

• 43:49Speaker 11

  Okay.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  I, unfortunately, I don't have any free time, Zahi. It was the worst that we released. There's been some that were bad that we didn't release. Yeah. But I think, I think we're all here for a reason. And I think, I think we're here to experience something, something very strange and profound that, and there's an event, there's an event that we're building up to. And I think that's why there's this focus on disclosure. That's why this documentary hit so hard. That's why guys like Marco Rubio are sticking their neck out, and Tulsi Gabbard, and Rep Luna. She came on my podcast, too, and she, she was telling me some stuff that was just like mind blowing. And she was, she really got me to read the Book of Enoch. She's like, you gotta read that.

• 44:35Speaker 12

  So you have the Ethiopian Orthodox text, which has, I think, 88 books of the Bible in total. But in the Ethiopian Orthodox text, it's basically kind of like a mainline OG version of the Bible. And then sometime in the fourth century, there was actually a group that came together and they removed certain books. And The story goes that Revelations actually had replaced Enoch. And so it's interesting because when you're looking kind of full circle on, you know, you hear the stuff that some of these people are talking about and then you see and you read the Book of Enoch, which is a wild read, okay? And then you look at kind of what our modern day description is of what angels and entities are versus what Enoch was seeing and reporting in his language and ability at that time.

• 45:19Speaker 12

  I just, I think that there's a lot that brings you to then ask the question, well, why would they remove this information if it's truly, you know, written and part of the oldest Bible in the world, why would they then take it out?

• 45:31Speaker 02

  And that could have easily been attached to the religious canon, but some rabbis disagreed with it because it didn't vibe with the Torah. So like, let's chuck that one out. But it's in the same lump of Dead Sea Scrolls, they have the Book of Isaiah, which is, which is really fascinating because Wes Huff, when he was on my podcast, explained to me that the Book of Isaiah, that they found in the Dead Sea Scrolls is verbatim, the same as the Book of Isaiah that was a thousand years more recent. Whoa. A thousand years. So this was, this was the oldest version that they thought was the oldest version. And then they found the Dead Sea Scrolls version, which was a thousand years older, verbatim. Fascinating. Fascinating. And the Book of Enoch's in there. There you go.

• 46:16Speaker 02

  Like, what are they talking about? What are you talking about? The watchers came down and they mated with humans and they created a race that was a giant race that destroyed everything and consumed everything. That sounds like us. Doesn't that sound like us? If you're some flimsy, tiny alien thing with no musculature and a large head and you make giants, you make football players, you make marauding Vikings, you know, that are just showing up in boats and hacking everybody to pieces, that's how you would describe them. Yep. You would describe them giants destroyed everything. Yes. It's, it's all very weird stuff, man.

• 46:57Jesse Michels?

  And Enoch himself goes through this amazing personal transformation where he goes up to heaven. He walks with God and then he turns into Metatron, this angel. And a lot of people think that's part of kind of a celestial ascent tradition. So you have celestial ascent traditions and various traditions. And, uh, you know, the, the, the wheels of Ezekiel. Or, you know, some people think in the book of Acts, Jesus does this. Or Paul has the thorn in the flesh where he sees God. And so maybe there's something around ascending up into this state and coming back down. And there's, there's a translation function where it's hard to say, you know, once you've ascended, it's hard to say what you've seen, like, like in the resurrection immortality key,

• 47:41Jesse Michels?

  where like there's like a fight club around it or something.

• 47:44Speaker 13

  This is the fight club of the ancient world. Whatever happened there, no one talked about it under penalty of death. I mean, people went to Eleusis as human beings. And from what little testimony survived, again, because it's secret, under penalty of death, they, they walked away thinking they were immortal.

• 48:00Jesse Michels?

  This all sounds really insane. I'm sure.

• 48:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I mean, you would have to have a fight club around it because no one's going to understand, nor are they going to take you seriously ever again, if you start talking about these things.

• 48:09Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  That's where I have a great benefit in being a professional fool. It's like, you know what I mean? Listen, I didn't get into podcasting as a professor. It's not like I was teaching something somewhere. I got into it because I was a comedian. So most of the early podcasts, it's literally just like this enormous gravity bong, sitting on a table with webcams and like half the episodes, we were obliterated, out of our minds, had no idea what we were talking about. It's mostly just comedians and we're just making each other laugh and having fun because we have our whole day free. All right. We have to work at night, work at night during the day. We write jokes, we hang out and then we, you know, find other things to do. And one of my favorite things to do used to be to do radio.

• 48:55Speaker 02

  Like when you do a good radio show like Opie and Anthony back in New York. You'd hang around with a bunch of other comedians and it would be so much fun. And then we would do it in the green room sometimes. We started doing that first before we did the podcast. What we would do was, uh, I think it was called Justin TV at the time. Hmm. And so it was like a streaming platform. So Brian, my producer would set up a laptop, Brian Redban, would set up a laptop in the green room and we would just fuck around in the green room because we were always making each other laugh and it was always like a fun environment. We were getting silly before we're going on stage. And so we started streaming that and then I said, we should just do a thing where we just sit down and just have comics and just

• 49:34Speaker 02

  do it like a radio show and just for fun. And because I don't have to be taken seriously, I can entertain any idea. Also, another huge inspiration for me was Art Bell. Yeah. You know, I'd love coast to coast with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine. I love that show. Uh, because I used to go drive home from the Comedy Store at one o'clock in the morning and he'd have some guy, he had a time traveler line.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  Art Bell, like let anybody say, Art, I'm a werewolf. Interesting. Tell me more.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  He didn't go, get the fuck out of here bitch. You're not a werewolf. He, he let people say crazy things and he entertained all the kooky things and I loved that.

• 50:13Speaker 08

  When you have a thirst for human blood, is it like, I mean, what can you compare it to? Is it like when you want chocolate ice cream or even worse?

• 50:23Speaker 14

  Um, it's even worse than that.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  So I was like very willing to, like Graham Hancock, I think was the first real guest that I had. Hmm. Um, like other than comedian friends. It was me and my good friend Duncan, Duncan Trussell. And, uh, Graham and I had been corresponding, I think through email. I, uh, had talked about his book, but this was back when no one even knew what podcasting was. It was so ridiculed. And it was just like little webcams and it was all like streaming on Ustream. And, uh, that was my first real guest, but. You know, I loved Fingerprints of the Gods and I wanted to, you know, I wanted to talk to the guy who made that book that like really made me reconsider what had happened with

• 51:09Speaker 02

  the, the human race and, you know, and how old our ancient civilizations might really be. They might go way back further than we think.

• 51:18Jesse Michels?

  Way back.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  Way back.

• 51:19Jesse Michels?

  Totally. And he's a great example of somebody, he'll incorporate stuff like Plato and myth into, you know, his study where it's like melt water pulse one B 96, you know, 100 B.C. This was told at a mythos festival in, in 600 B.C. in Timaeus and Cretaeus.

• 51:38Speaker 15

  When Solon was at that temple and the priests told him the Atlantis story and how Atlantis was swallowed up by the sea in a single terrible day and night, he asked them, when did this happen? And they said 9,000 years ago. Now immediately that's a date we can convert into our calendar. 9,000 years ago in 600 B.C. is a date we call 9,600 B.C. Which give or take 20 years is 11,600 years ago. And just as the younger Dryas began cataclysmically with a sea level rise 12,800 years ago, it also ended cataclysmically with an even more massive sea level rise 11,600 years ago. And that massive sea level rise has a

• 52:23Speaker 15

  name. You'll just call it melt water pulse one B. It's well documented. Nobody disputes that there was a melt water pulse one B and it raised sea levels massively, literally overnight.

• 52:35Jesse Michels?

  And you actually look back the historical record and we wouldn't even think that Troy, the Peloponnesian War was, we would think that was mythical. It was just Homer and Herodotus. But this guy Heinrich Schliemann decided to take that seriously and he found it in Anatolia, in modern day Turkey.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 52:52Jesse Michels?

  And so.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  The modern day Turkey is wild.

• 52:54Jesse Michels?

  It's weird, right?

• 52:55Speaker 02

  Cause you look at ancient Turkey, like if, if you look at like Baalbek and Lebanon, you look at those areas, like a lot of people think Turkey where Gobekli Tepe, they think that might've been the origin of civilization. That, you know, it wasn't Egypt, it predates even that, it might have been there.

• 53:13Jesse Michels?

  Well, they're creating sundials there. Like, it's so sophisticated.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  How weird is it that that part of the world, that the Middle East is where you get all this Sumerian stuff? Which is just, I mean, I watched a whole documentary the other night on the Sumerian kings list, which is just like, what is this? Because it's both accurate and mythical at the same time. So you have people that are kings that live 40,000 years plus? And you have eight kings that are documented and some of them are real. Some of them are real and the time that they reigned corresponded with a real, normal, biological, human life. But then you have ones that were before the great flood that don't.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  They're really long and crazy and you just go, okay, what was going on?

• 54:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 54:05Speaker 02

  And it sounds insane that people could live for 30,000 years, but it doesn't. Here's why it doesn't. What we can do now, just a rudimentary stuff that we can do now, prolongs physical health far beyond where it ever was before. And then when you're talking about stuff like hyperbaric chamber therapy, there was a study out of Jerusalem, I believe it was, where they did a protocol where they put people on a hyperbaric treatment. There was 90 days, they had to do 60 sessions in 90 days. At the end of those 60 sessions, they measured their telomeres. Their telomeres, which is a direct sign of cellular aging. The shorter your telomeres are, the closer you are to death.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Their telomeres had lengthened that was-

• 54:53Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  Yes, that was commensurate with a 20-year difference in their age.

• 54:58Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 54:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 54:59Jesse Michels?

  Lengthened? I didn't know you could lengthen telomeres.

• 55:02Speaker 02

  I've done it. I've done that therapy. I did that exact therapy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've done it a couple of times. But I did it at the, I was like, okay, let me give this a chance. And I went to this hyperbaric place and it was so boring.

• 55:14Jesse Michels?

  For ninety minutes.

• 55:15Speaker 02

  Go get me out of those. Thankfully, you can use your phone, but that fucking fully sketches me out. Because like if there's a spark that goes off, then you blow. People have died in those things.

• 55:23Jesse Michels?

  Oh, no.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. A child died in one fairly recently because of static from the blanket ignited the oxygen.

• 55:31Jesse Michels?

  Oh, God.

• 55:32Speaker 02

  Very scary stuff. Because you're in a super high oxygenated, high pressure environment that's equal to what I do is two altitudes. So two US, two Earth altitudes, and you do it for ninety minutes. So we know about that. We also know about NMN, and a lot of the work that David Sinclair has been doing out of Harvard. We know that they've been able to take mice and make mice behave like younger mice by switching their blood to the blood of younger mice. We're real close to be able to do weird shit right now. And there's a lot of people that believe that if you can make it to ninety right now, you're gonna be able to make it to like three hundred years old. So if that's the case, let's imagine

• 56:13Speaker 02

  that a society, let's be open minded, in a society as sophisticated as the people that lived in Africa that were able to move stones that weighed eighty, ninety tons, five hundred miles through the mountains with no roads, perfectly aligned them to true north, south, east and west, two million, three hundred thousand stones in one pyramid alone. And now, there's real evidence that there's structures under the pyramids that might go as deep as two kilometers.

• 56:44Jesse Michels?

  That look like an energy grid.

• 56:45Speaker 02

  With columns and coils around the columns and like, what? So if they were capable of doing that, imagine what their health technology was.

• 56:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 56:55Speaker 02

  Maybe they had cracked all the things that we cracked, plus a thousand years.

• 57:00Jesse Michels?

  You know, I just interviewed the guy that did the synthetic aperture radar scans.

• 57:04Speaker 02

  The Italian guys?

• 57:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, the Italian guys. I went to Italy, actually.

• 57:07Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 57:08Jesse Michels?

  Filippo Biondi.

• 57:10Speaker 16

  There are these structures. Tubes, huge tubes that are descending underneath. And we have noticed that these tubes has a sort of spiral nature. We have measured approximately over one kilometer of depth.

• 57:31Jesse Michels?

  Over a kilometer of depth? Wow. And I came in not knowing, you know, how serious or rigorous he was. And I came out being like, this guy does, he does, I'm pretty sure work with, he couldn't really talk about it, but work with the Italian military. And so this thing, synthetic aperture radar Doppler tomography, is used in commercial use cases where money is on the line. It's used to map magma chambers inside volcanoes. And I think it's used in some like spooky military use cases where people's lives are on the line. Yeah, they want to find where the bunkers are. A hundred percent. Hundred percent. And so you can chat GPT this stuff, but because there's not a ton of data on the instrumentation and it'll give you spit out all sorts of wrong answers.

• 58:15Jesse Michels?

  But I felt like I went pretty deep with this guy. And there is a hundred percent something underneath the pyramids in that shape. The coils, the columns, he doesn't know what the material is. He's very honest about that. He doesn't know what the function is. Is it the Christopher Dunn hydrogen powered plant thing? He doesn't know, but there is something underneath there and it's eight columns and they're coiling. And he says he goes a kilometer deep. He says tens of meters is where they're high confidence, but he says a thousand meters. Just the columns. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just the columns. Yeah, it's insane. That's so wild. It's wild. And there's something underneath them. And there's something, is that a foundation? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:58Speaker 16

  So at the bottom, we probably have huge chambers for approximately 80 meters of width and also of height, 80 meters.

• 59:08Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 59:09Speaker 16

  On the bottom.

• 59:10Jesse Michels?

  On the bottom?

• 59:11Speaker 16

  Yes.

• 59:11Jesse Michels?

  And so what is that? That's like the kind of foundation structure on which the tubes are coming out?

• 59:17Speaker 16

  Probably because we are observing that the tubes are connected to the respective top of this structure. They are connected and goes inside.

• 59:28Speaker 02

  Wow. What?

• 59:30Jesse Michels?

  It's so crazy.

• 59:31Speaker 02

  How did you do that?

• 59:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, so through a water table?

• 59:33Speaker 02

  This is my point. If longevity science is real today.

• 59:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 59:38Speaker 02

  And we get to a point where you can live for a thousand years. Here's the problem with education. You have to reteach all these new fucking kids. Every year you have to teach new people, new things, right? If you have people that are thousands of years old, imagine, and no deterioration mentally, imagine how much you can discover. Imagine how much you can apply. If there's no diminishing of your faculties, you're at five, 600 years old and you're still fully engulfed in whatever discipline you're doing. You know, can you imagine if you, you gave these guys that are working on, you know, quantum entanglement, give them thousands of years to work on that. Give them unlimited funds.

• 1:00:21Speaker 02

  Give them the mental clarity of a young person a thousand years old. That's probably how you get the pyramids. And it's probably how you get all sorts of wild shit that we still can't figure out.

• 1:00:33Speaker 00

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• 1:01:02Jesse Michels?

  Today. Probably. And if you look at Hindu cultures, they, they have the Yuga periods. We're now in the Kali Yuga where the lifespan is the shortest.

• 1:01:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:01:10Jesse Michels?

  And people live for thousands of years. And even in the Bible, you had Methuselah or whatever, you know, these.

• 1:01:15Speaker 02

  Noah was like 600 years old when the ark came around.

• 1:01:17Jesse Michels?

  There you go.

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, and everybody's like, what does that mean? I don't know. Why are we so convinced that this is the only way? That the only way is you live to be 100 and then you die. Like says who?

• 1:01:28Jesse Michels?

  Well, science is now, as you're saying, proving that wrong, but also I think it's this bias that like myth is myth. And it's not history, but like if you, the Egyptians had the zeptapi when the gods walked among us.

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:01:40Jesse Michels?

  If you look at myths, you know, it's like the flood myth, it's in 400 disparate cultures. If you have all of these myths of like greater beings, Nephilim, fallen angels, that sort of thing. You have to start taking that seriously at some point as history and not just myth.

• 1:01:56Speaker 02

  Right. And it's not a coincidence that these cultures that all have this flood myth. All align with the Younger Dryas impact theory timeline.

• 1:02:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  It's the same timeline as the ending of Atlantis. It's the same timeline.

• 1:02:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  Like, and this is not, it's not a theory in that's just like, it's pontificated, they've sat around. I wonder if that could have happened. No, they've got core samples that show a large amount of iridium. They know that iridium is rare on earth, but very common in space. They know that there's a comet storm that comes by, I think it's every November and every June.

• 1:02:30Jesse Michels?

  The torrids.

• 1:02:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:32Speaker 02

  They know we passed through this fucking meteor shower. They know it.

• 1:02:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  They know that it caused tunguska.

• 1:02:38Jesse Michels?

  Exactly.

• 1:02:38Speaker 02

  Yes. They know it. So the idea that that happened in a horrible way, you know, 11,000 plus years ago, it's, it's not outrageous at all.

• 1:02:47Jesse Michels?

  No. And then maybe that dovetails with disclosure because you, you just had Hal put up on, which is an amazing episode. He's written a paper on ultra terrestrials. So beings that could have died off in a cataclysm, maybe there were some remnant survivors. Maybe those survivors have underwater bases, bases on the moon. They have advanced technology left over from that Atlantean period. Atlanteans were, you know, notoriously water fearing people. And maybe that's what we're seeing.

• 1:03:12Speaker 02

  Like a break off civilization.

• 1:03:14Jesse Michels?

  A breakaway civilization.

• 1:03:15Speaker 02

  They've, they've figured out a way to survive. And maybe they were, you know, like, you always hear this about like Zuckerberg's building a bunker, like the elites, the elites, I'll have a bunker somewhere, you know, maybe that was the version of the elites have a bunker, you know, maybe it was the most advanced people or beings. That's the other thing, it's like, what, what are we, you know, what are we? I have dogs, you know, and I have two adorable dogs, I have a golden retriever and I have a, it's, he's called a King Charles Spaniel. He's the fucking cutest thing you've ever seen in your life. It's like, that used to be a wolf.

• 1:03:54Jesse Michels?

  It's Charlie.

• 1:03:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, Charlie, his name's Charlie. He used to be a wolf, right? Like, if you track back his lineage and you find out what, you know, his ancient ancestor was a wolf, which is so ridiculous. All he does is kiss you and makes these little barks and he's fucking adorable, right? But they're very different looking, but yet they could breed if they were male and female. It's like, we're weird, we're the only thing that's like dogs. And we know dogs exist because we did some stuff with wolves. We only wanted the bitch ass wolves. We only wanted the wolves with the floppy ears that were willing to take the meat and hey, bark if you see something, I'm going to sleep, I'm your friend. And that's how we worked out this relationship with wolves that eventually became dogs.

• 1:04:39Speaker 02

  And then we bred them to become dogs. I think we're genetically engineered. I'm, I don't believe that it's a very simple evolutionary timeline between ancient hominids and human beings. I don't buy it. It's, it happens too quick, it's too weird.

• 1:04:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, you have all these weird, you have the Homo habilis to Homo sapiens, the doubling of cranial size, which, you know, you talk about a lot.

• 1:05:04Speaker 02

  And then you also- Well, McKenna had a great take on that, he thought, he thought it was from psilocybin mushrooms.

• 1:05:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:09Speaker 02

  That's the stoned ape theory. But he is accurate in one thing, and that is that the human brain doubled over a period of like a couple million years, which is- Unprecedented in the fossil record. It doesn't even make sense.

• 1:05:22Jesse Michels?

  It doesn't.

• 1:05:22Speaker 02

  And his point was really great. He said, imagine the organ that's responsible for the fossil record in the first place is what doubles over a period of two million years. Like this kind of like, it's not just a liver on a monkey, you know, it's the brain of the most intelligent species on the planet.

• 1:05:39Jesse Michels?

  You can't explain that with pure natural selection. It seems you would need some sort of outside intervention.

• 1:05:44Speaker 02

  Something would have to happen to warrant that kind of change. And, uh, you know, maybe it was just the battle for survival. Maybe it's just ingenuity and innovation and that natural selection favored the, the beings that had larger brains because they could think through things quicker and devise better because we're barbaric and we were really, really barbaric then. I'm sure you've seen Chimp Empire.

• 1:06:07Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:06:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's on Netflix. I can't recommend it enough, but you realize how like warlike and horrific chimp culture is and that they just run around fucking up these other tribes of chimps and killing chimps. And if a rival chimp crosses a boundary, they all kill it. It's, that's us.

• 1:06:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  That's us, right? Well, if you wanted to get out of that hump, you would probably have to devise the best weapons, the best structure that could be some sort of a protect and shield from these other primates. And that would make sense, you know, because we do know that chimps and, and, uh, even orangutans, like you've seen the orangutan spearfishing. You've seen that image?

• 1:06:45Jesse Michels?

  I don't know if I have.

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  Never seen it?

• 1:06:46Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 1:06:47Speaker 02

  Orangutan spearfish.

• 1:06:48Jesse Michels?

  Spearfishing?

• 1:06:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:49Jesse Michels?

  Like a human?

• 1:06:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll pull it up because it's so crazy. But.

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's real. Yeah, it's real. Look. Yeah. So what happened was apparently the orangutans saw humans doing it. And so they imitated it.

• 1:07:06Jesse Michels?

  That's like graceful and artful.

• 1:07:09Speaker 02

  So strong. He's just hanging on to this tree limb and then just reaching down stabbing fish as they go by. Yeah.

• 1:07:16Jesse Michels?

  Well, maybe that's like, because I think you bring this up in the context also of aliens vis a vis us with Chimp Empire where it's like. Maybe there's some sort of prime directive where they're waiting for us to get less violent. They're keeping an eye on us. They're showing up at nuclear sites, which they do at all of our nuclear sites.

• 1:07:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:34Jesse Michels?

  But they're kind of waiting till we're, till we evolve a little bit or something.

• 1:07:39Speaker 02

  I think they're waiting for AI. That's what I think.

• 1:07:42Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:07:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think that's the whole, the whole reason why they haven't contacted us, the whole reason why there's no like very obvious signal to the entire population of Earth that this is a real phenomenon. I think they're waiting for AI because I don't think we're gonna get less violent. I think that fucking ship has sailed. There's slap fights now on TV. People slap each other. We're dumb as shit, man.

• 1:08:03Jesse Michels?

  Dana White.

• 1:08:04Speaker 02

  It's not like that. But I mean, I can't talk, I mean, I've been commentating for the UFC since 1997. I've been working for them. So it's like, look, I get it. We're violent. We're violent. I go bow hunting all the time. We're violent. We're a violent being and we're not gonna not be violent. It's, I think that ship has sailed. It would be nice if we could evolve past that and I think we can certainly as individuals, you know, I definitely think that's the case. But collectively in large groups, I think we're just violent and, and until we can read each other's minds, I think that's gonna stick. But I think that's gonna be one of the next hurdles, um, one of, one of the big technological breakthroughs that's gonna happen, that's gonna change the way human beings interact with each other.

• 1:08:44Speaker 02

  Is what I anticipate would be, uh, the development of a universal language and, um, some sort of, uh, technologically assisted telepathy. So it'll probably be, I'm sure you've seen that Google test where they put on the headsets and they ask each other questions and answer the questions without words. You've seen that, right?

• 1:09:05Jesse Michels?

  No, I've never seen that. That's amazing.

• 1:09:06Speaker 02

  Oh my goodness.

• 1:09:07Jesse Michels?

  Oh my God.

• 1:09:08Speaker 02

  Oh my goodness. They can already do this.

• 1:09:15Speaker 17

  Thai food could be good.

• 1:09:18Speaker 02

  You think things, it transmits your thoughts to that person in words that they hear. And then they think things and transmit it to you in words that you hear. These guys are laughing. They can't believe it's happening. They're not even talking. They're just laughing. I know Neuralink has a patent on telepathy or something. It's coming, man. It's coming 100%. And so what's our big hurdle? The Tower of Babel. What's the big hurdle? We can't communicate with each other. This is, how many languages are there? There's so many. We don't even know how many Aboriginal languages there are in Australia. Totally. Do you know that they like, they have these mobs and these mobs might live 10 kilometers away from another, they call it, that's like tribe. They call themselves mobs, the Aboriginal people.

• 1:10:01Speaker 02

  They, they might live 10 kilometers away from another mob with a totally different language they don't understand. Wow. Yeah. And they don't have, it's not written. And so some of these people die, they die off. There's a lot of genocide. A lot of people, a lot of them were killed. Like some horrific history to ancient Australia. My good friend Adam Green Tree, and by the way, Australia, a lot of freaky cave art. A lot of freaky UFO looking art, like weird stuff that thousands of years old. You're like, what were you guys drawing? Like, what is that? Uh, my friend Adam Green Tree visited a site where, um, they had given food to this entire tribe of Australian Aborigines that were tainted. It was all poisoned. And the, the entire cave, he said, is just littered with human bones.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  He said, it's the saddest, most like dark and depressing single environment he's ever been in. And he was in this cave going, what the fuck, man? They just poisoned this entire tribe. This gave them all food with poison just to get rid of them. Ah, it's so horrible. Yeah. So, and so just think of all the languages. There, there's too many languages. There's so many. You can't learn them all. Well, now your phone can translate my, the newest iPhone update. If you have the, the AirPods, the AirPods can translate languages in real time. I'd know that. Yeah. That's so crazy. Right. So, but what's the hurdle? The hurdles, we have to translate all these languages. Why don't we learn a new one? Why don't we learn a new one that everybody accepts? If we're doing things, it's like.

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  I know Jujitsu. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Remember when he gets that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If that's possible. Install some file. You'll install some new universal language. You'll be able to communicate with each other everywhere. And then all of our beefs over resources and ideologies and religions and

• 1:11:52Speaker 02

  national borders, all that's gonna go away. Hmm. It's gonna, like, cause I think we're much more homogen- not, not homogenized. We're much more cohesive as a world than we've ever been before. Maybe we're divided on many issues like we always have been, but there's communication with people all over the world that's unprecedented. Yes. There's never been a time where you can watch a podcast from Israel or watch a guy talking in Colombia about the problems they're having there. And you're watching people communicating. And then you're seeing people post things on X and all you have to do is hit that button and it translates it. And so you're reading about this guy, like what his experience is in Russia.

• 1:12:36Speaker 02

  And you're like, it's a different world, man. But it's not yet there. This is like early internet, you know? And I think ultimately what's gonna propel us is some sort of a way where we can unite. And one of the best ways we can unite is to understand each other. At the end of the day, we're all just human beings. We all want the same things. We want our loved ones to be safe. We want to be able to pursue whatever fascinates us that we love. We want to live in a nice community. We want to have friends. We want to be loved. That's what everybody wants. That's what everybody wants. Yeah. And if we can understand that we're being played by people where these, this role has always existed.

• 1:13:18Speaker 02

  The king, you know, the general, the corrupt military person who just wants to go to war. It's always existed. Eisenhower warned us about this when he left office, right? That has always existed, but we can't know what your real intentions are if we can't read your mind. The moment we could read your mind, you're like. This is bullshit. It won't work anymore. It'll be, it'll be a groundbreaking, complete transformation of the entire way we interact with each other.

• 1:13:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:48Speaker 02

  All of each other.

• 1:13:49Jesse Michels?

  Well, I feel like there are various possible instantiations of what you're talking about. Like there's the kind of, almost like Mark of the Beast style, people have implants, bio authoritarian version.

• 1:14:01Speaker 02

  That's the UK version.

• 1:14:02Jesse Michels?

  That's the UK version, exactly.

• 1:14:04Speaker 02

  Wrong.

• 1:14:04Jesse Michels?

  Exactly.

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:05Jesse Michels?

  Or Australian version or whatever.

• 1:14:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:08Jesse Michels?

  And then there's the version, like, I almost wonder, you were getting me thinking, like, are psychedelics alien technology to get us to naturally, because you have like things like the telepathy tapes, you interviewed Kai Dickens.

• 1:14:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:21Jesse Michels?

  And there's a great book by Arthur C. Clarke called Childhood's End. And in that book, the aliens first communicate with these autistic children, non-verbal children. And I wonder if this sort of, there's some sort of like almost psychedelic network that is analogous to this more like, you know, silicon chip circuitry based, you know, communication thing. And those two things are somewhat different, actually. And that a lot of the progress we've seen in humanity, ala the Stone Dape Theory, is based on psychedelic updates, or, you know, Brian Marescu talking about the immortality key. You know, like, you could argue a lot of modern civilization comes from the foundations of these visionary, you know,

• 1:15:04Jesse Michels?

  Plato, Aristotle, having these visions on psychedelics.

• 1:15:07Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:15:08Jesse Michels?

  And so maybe those two things are actually in opposition. The kind of like Mark of the Beast's bio authoritarian thing and the like, the actual like parapsychological thing or whatever.

• 1:15:19Speaker 02

  I think you're dead on. Yeah. I, I think, I, I wouldn't say it's like alien technology, that, that psilocybin and DMT are alien technology. But I think they have a function, just like.

• 1:15:34Speaker 02

  Electrolytes have a function, you know, just like nutrients have a function like vitamin C is important for your health, you know, vitamin D is important. There's a lot of things that have a function that we just sort of accept. We don't accept that psychedelics might have a very beneficial and maybe even essential function in human society. And we've removed that because of people that have a philosophy that's diametrically opposed to the philosophy that one gets after a psychedelic experience. After a psychedelic experience, your your feeling is of ego death and of unity and of community and you're like, God, you just want to love everyone and hug everyone. That is the exact opposite

• 1:16:18Speaker 02

  of someone who wants to ban psychedelics and put people in jail for having them and to say there's no benefit, no medicinal purpose. Meanwhile, they had no experience in it whatsoever. They're talking completely ignorantly, based entirely on fraudulent data about what it, you know, it's going to ruin your brain and give you brain damage. Like I had a conversation with Michio Kaku one day on the Open Anthony Show, who I love. I think he's great. But I was like, you ever do mushrooms, man? And I was like, we're just fucking around. And he was like, I love it. My brain is very important to me. I don't want to, I don't want to give myself brain damage. Like, I'm like, that's not what's going to happen, man. It's not what's going to happen. And I think, for me at least, those experiences

• 1:16:59Speaker 02

  have been essential in grounding me and letting me reassess and reevaluate how I've sort of categorized the world and my life and everything. I think they're, they're expand, they expand something about your consciousness that you can't weigh. You can't put it on a scale and you can't put a tape measure to it. So you, you don't think that it's tangible. But I think if there was a way to measure it, you could, you know, like if you get in a hyperbaric chamber with an aura ring, the aura ring the next day will tell you that you have significantly higher recovery than normal. And you don't feel it, though. You know what I'm saying? Like if I, there's no way of quantifying it. But

• 1:17:44Speaker 02

  if you had an aura ring that could quantify your consciousness after a psychedelic experience, 100%, it would show massive improvements in love, in community, and diminishing of ego, the appreciation of nature.

• 1:18:02Speaker 02

  You know, just like wanting to be nice to people and hug people, you tell your friends you love them. That that all comes out of psychedelics, like no question. And what's opposed to that? Well, what's opposed to that is authoritarianism. What's opposed to that is locking people up and putting people in cages for doing this thing that really the people that are locking in cages should be doing. The only way we're gonna get past that is those people have to die off and young, new people have to kind of take their place. Because these officials that are, you know, the ones that are pushing these certain narratives, these antiquated ideas, particularly about psychedelics.

• 1:18:46Speaker 02

  They're almost all old people who are uninformed. And none of them are psychedelic explorers. None of them are people like, look, I've done ayahuasca five times. Let me tell you something. This shit should be illegal. We need to get everybody to go to church and you need to start drinking water. You know, it's, um, we we have generational problems. In 1970, they passed a sweeping psychedelics act during the Nixon administration that was specifically done to target the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement. They made all these drugs illegal so that they could go in and arrest all these people and just put a stop to all this peace, love and happiness foolishness.

• 1:19:31Speaker 02

  And they were really successful at it. And we grew up with that. We grew up with, in the 1980s, there was the Nancy Reagan, don't say no commercial, or just say no commercials.

• 1:19:40Jesse Michels?

  There.

• 1:19:41Speaker 02

  That was my take on it. Don't say no. It was just say no. It was all just say no. Like this is your brain on drugs and a guy with frying pan. You're like, what? It was the dumbest propaganda, but it worked. It worked to a certain extent.

• 1:19:55Jesse Michels?

  Meanwhile, she was seeing an astrologist.

• 1:19:58Speaker 02

  And she's probably on pills. She's probably on all kinds of prescription pills. The doctor gave it to me. It's not a drug. You know, like, it's kooky. That's the other thing. Most of these people are on Adderall. Most of these people telling you to not do psychedelics, like a large amount of high-profile, like high-productivity people are doing Adderall, which is essentially amphetamines.

• 1:20:19Jesse Michels?

  Or they're on SSRIs or some other shit.

• 1:20:24Speaker 02

  They're on anti-anxiety medication, whatever the fuck they need to get them through the day, but.

• 1:20:29Speaker 00

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• 1:20:59Speaker 02

  I think it's a... It's... You could call it a technology, but it is an essential element in the human life to... And I'm not... I don't think it's essential for everybody. I want to be real clear on that. I think for people that have very shaky psychological foundations, there's people that have mental illness. There's people that are, you know, they're taking medication just so they can function. Yeah, this is not for you, you know, unfortunately. But for other people, I think if we had a legal system where you could go to a person who is a licensed clinician who could prescribe you, in a very safe environment,

• 1:21:41Speaker 02

  prescribe you psilocybin and talk you through the experiment... experience, rather, and explain to you how to relax and that you can't fight this. Like, this is what a bad trip is, is you try to fight it, and you're not gonna win. You're just gonna get smothered by, like, whatever it is that's haunting your brain. Just let it ride over you. Just say, just let go. Just let go. And some people maybe can't do that psychologically. Maybe a small dose is good for them. Just a little touch of it, just to get a feel for it, so you're not feeling like you're going crazy. But I think we could have... We could know a lot more about humans and what's possible in terms of the way we interact with each other.

• 1:22:24Speaker 02

  The kindest people that I know, like to a person, have all done them. I think there's something to that. And I think that the prohibition of that does no one any good. I always put it this way. Like, if it was just the three of us in this room and... Uh, you just decided, uh, hey, man, no one can drink alcohol anymore. And if you do, I'm gonna lock you in a cage. Me and that other dude be like, hey, man, fuck you. Like, why are you telling me what to do? If I drink, what do you give a shit? Because crimes already exist. If I drink and then I break into your house and beat you up, well, that is a crime. So you go to jail for that. Why am I going to jail for just drinking? Maybe I can handle it. Maybe you can't handle it. Maybe I can have a couple of drinks and watch the game and I'm, I'm in a good fucking mood. And it enhanced my life.

• 1:23:08Speaker 02

  You know, like, well, who are you to tell me? And that's the, the same argument with psychedelics. And all it does is it props up organized crime. What's fascinating about psychedelics is that there's not really a big commercial market where it props up organized crime.

• 1:23:25Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 1:23:26Speaker 02

  Ubiquitous use, right? But where's the mushroom cartel? You know, they don't exist.

• 1:23:32Jesse Michels?

  No, they don't.

• 1:23:32Speaker 02

  Which is strange.

• 1:23:34Jesse Michels?

  It is strange.

• 1:23:34Speaker 02

  Because it's a beautiful, loving thing.

• 1:23:37Jesse Michels?

  And often you don't need to get hooked on it. You take it once and it really profoundly helps you. Like Iboga, which was, you know, just allowed for veterans in Texas. Thank God. Often again, due to your, you know, your advocacy.

• 1:23:49Speaker 02

  And Rick, Rick Perry, Governor Rick Perry, who was, uh, who was former governor, Republican, who was very staunch anti-drug critic for his whole life. And now he's had experiences. And having talked to all these veterans who come back and there is no help for them, man. I mean, these guys come back, they see horrific shit. They see their friends blown up. And then you ask them to just go to work. And they're, they're broken, some of them. And the, one of the best ways for them to reintegrate to society seems to be Ibogaine. And I have personally talked to many of my friends who served overseas, who had, again, horrific experiences, came back all fucked up. That was one of the only things that saved them. Sean Ryan talks about it.

• 1:24:34Speaker 02

  You know, there's a lot of these guys. It's like, it's the only thing that helped them. And then it made them feel like a normal person again. It made them feel like a human again.

• 1:24:45Speaker 02

  This is the story of DMT or dimethyltryptamine. A simple compound found throughout nature which has profound effects on human consciousness.

• 1:24:57Jesse Michels?

  What was your first DMT trip like?

• 1:25:00Speaker 02

  I thought I was dead for sure. I thought like, well, I fucked up. This just, this just killed me. Like this, there's no way this is real. The first one was 5 MEO, which might be stronger than NN dimethyltryptamine supposedly. It made you feel like you were broken down to subatomic particles and you integrated with the universe. That's what it made it feel like. Like completely integrated. I didn't exist anymore. Language didn't exist. History didn't exist. All of it was pointless and foolish. I was a part of the entire universe and I was conscious that I was a part of the entire universe.

• 1:25:43Speaker 02

  It was like, I didn't exist, but I was, I existed in the universe. The universe existed, but all as one. It wasn't separated by individuals and animals and fish. It was all one thing. It was like the source. It was very profound, very strange. No visuals. It's just like, almost like a very, a fine geometric pattern through blinding white light. Like the experience is like blinding white light that seems to have some sort of a pattern to it. And again, like complete dissolving of ego, complete dissolving of history. And I had no knowledge of my, didn't think of my language. I was thinking outside of language.

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  I was thinking out completely outside of being a human, outside of, it was just pure thought. And it wasn't my thought. It was all thought. It was all one big crazy burst and it lasts like 15 minutes. And then I come down and I'm trying to talk about it, but as I'm trying to talk about it, I'm realizing that some of the way that I talk, I talk in a way that sounds smart on purpose. You know, because I'm like, like I'm trying to make it impressive, you know, but I'm recognizing that while I'm saying it. You know, because I'm like, oh, this is how you, that's gross. I'm like, that's gross. And when you talk to people and they're trying to sound smarter than they have to be. You know, but I'm realizing like, I'm trying to put this into words because I know that I'm going to tell it.

• 1:27:09Speaker 02

  And that's what I realized. Like, okay, the reason why I'm doing this is I'm trying to formulate right now while it's still fresh in my mind. What how to describe this in a way that's going to be entertaining to people because it it's fleeting. You know, memories are weird, right? Um, like dreams are weird. Like I told you about that dream. That dream that I had, the crazy dream of being in contact with those beings, uh, is now a a memory of my recollection of those dreams of that dream. It's not the dream anymore, right? The dream anymore is very foggy, but my memory of how I said it is pretty clear, right? But if I if you've sat me alone and I forgot that I ever told you anything about it and I had to describe it, I'd be like, I don't know what the fuck that was.

• 1:27:55Speaker 02

  You know, I'd be like, they were like people or something. I I it was hard. It's hard to remember. So it's like, once I had the experience, I wanted to say it in a way that I knew that I could repeat. Because the thing about DMT in particular, as well as dreams. It or that that's similar to dreams, rather, is that it's very, very profound when it happens. But then 15 minutes later, you have a hard time recalling it. It's weird. Like it slips through. I I think I think it's a hotline. I really do. I think I think DMT is the hotline to the universe. And I think whatever it's explaining to you, it's trying to give you some insight as to how things work.

• 1:28:37Speaker 02

  And that you are you're living on a very surface level of an infinite stack of consciousness and interactions and just particles and subatomic particles that make up the universe. But it's critical for you to think that your role is very important. It's critical for you to get obsessed with things and to to get FOMO and to be going on Instagram and feel like you're missing out. And it's critical because that's what encourages innovation. That's what encourages materialism, keeping up with the Joneses. Like, it's not a coincidence that. We get this platform that allows people to show photos of anything you find that's fascinating

• 1:29:20Speaker 02

  or wonderful in the world. And the ones that get the most interaction are the ones that have stuff that you can't have. Someone standing in front of a private jet, someone getting out of a Lamborghini, they're wearing a diamond encrusted watch, you know, like it's that stuff. Like it's the envy stuff. Then what does that do? Not just envy, it encourages the use of the platform, which encourages better versions of the platform, which encourages technological innovation. And it also encourages people to try to go out and recreate what those people are doing. I want to get a big house. I want to get a new TV. And all that is just materialism. And materialism fuels innovation. Because if we all decided right now, hey, if we're wise, we would decide right now, hey, I think, I think the electronics we have are good enough.

• 1:30:06Speaker 02

  I think the internet speed we have right now is good enough. You know, you can stream Netflix. There's no hitch in it. I think we should just put our time and effort into fixing the problems we've created by making all this stuff. Why don't we put all of our effort into taking all the pollution out of those rivers in India? Why don't we figure out how to provide power to these third world countries? Why don't we stop making new phones and just keep making this phone over and over and over again? Because that's all you fucking need. It takes perfect pictures. It sends a text message. The calls are clear. What do you need? You don't need a new one. But yet, a giant chunk of our economy is pouring into making the newest,

• 1:30:47Speaker 02

  greatest things that we don't need. You know, and I think that's because we're, it's a convergence. It's all like, all this keeping up the Joneses and making technology, AI is coming along, sentient AI, while we're being observed. And like, it's like we're watching chickens hatch. It's like, they're sitting on the eggs. And we're like, let me check that egg. Not yet. Not yet. And I think during our lifetime, and I don't think that's a coincidence. I think we're supposed to be here for this.

• 1:31:18Jesse Michels?

  I feel like I just took five M E O listening to that. That was crazy. Speaking of a big chunk of our economy, you mentioned being friends with Elon Musk. I feel like you straddle this interesting world where you have people on who are adamantly pro UFO. And then you have people like Elon Musk on who are. They run SpaceX, you would think he would be, you know, completely privy to all of our UFO secrets.

• 1:31:44Speaker 02

  He's a sly dog.

• 1:31:46Jesse Michels?

  That's what you think.

• 1:31:47Speaker 02

  He's my homie, but he's a sly dog.

• 1:31:49Jesse Michels?

  If he was debating, like, in a room with David Grush on your show.

• 1:31:53Speaker 02

  He wouldn't do it.

• 1:31:54Jesse Michels?

  He wouldn't do it.

• 1:31:55Speaker 02

  Also, he has his one life. If aliens are real, they're sure all subtle.

• 1:32:03Speaker 02

  I don't think that that's subtle, dude. I think you know things that you're not letting on to.

• 1:32:08Jesse Michels?

  Or you'll say, "I'm an alien."

• 1:32:09Speaker 02

  I talked about this with Dan yesterday on the Age of Disclosure podcast. Of course he knows. But of course you can't say anything. Like, you can't defy the government if you want enormous grants and you're building rockets. You're working with NASA, you know?

• 1:32:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, that's your whole business.

• 1:32:26Speaker 02

  Grush has his suspicions. He has his suspicions as well.

• 1:32:30Jesse Michels?

  I think he does.

• 1:32:30Speaker 02

  I think they all do. Listen, man, it's nonsense. If, if, you know, if he knows anything, he knows what they know. He's read into all that stuff. You don't think he looked into it, but you also, you can't talk about it. Guess what? I wouldn't either. If I was running SpaceX and I had to go do this fucking dumbass comedian's podcast once a year, and he's asking me about aliens, like, "Nope, nope, no aliens. Whole thing, haven't seen a thing."

• 1:32:58Jesse Michels?

  Your entire net worth gets destroyed. Or you can, you know, let the lid on.

• 1:33:03Speaker 02

  Well, Tesla's stock crashed when he smoked weed on my show.

• 1:33:06Jesse Michels?

  Fair enough.

• 1:33:07Speaker 02

  But it went right back up. Everybody's like, "You caused the..." No, it was temporary. A bunch of pussies bailed out, and then a bunch of people capitalized on that, and the stock actually went up.

• 1:33:17Jesse Michels?

  There you go.

• 1:33:18Speaker 02

  But there was a big hubbub about that because he has top-secret clearance. It's because he works with NASA. That's why him smoking weed on the podcast was such a big deal.

• 1:33:29Jesse Michels?

  So they do hair tests and stuff. You're really nuts.

• 1:33:31Speaker 02

  Exactly. But also, you just can't do that openly when you work for the federal fucking government. I didn't even think about that, you know? I'm like, "This billionaire dude, he can do whatever the fuck he wants." I was like, "Let's spark up a blunt. We're already drinking."

• 1:33:44Jesse Michels?

  Well, I think that's what's so cool about you, and that's been my experience of you, and, you know, we have other friends like Danny Jones, where we're both, Danny and I will text, and we're like, "How is Joe... You're so, like, high-octane. You're so responsive and helpful, like, for us and stuff, and like, we're just coming up." And it's fucking awesome, man. Like, you... I don't know how you maintain your level of just being normal and cool at your level. Like, it's pretty amazing.

• 1:34:10Speaker 02

  Well, thank you. Uh, I'm just, I'm the same person. I didn't change who I am just because more people know who I am.

• 1:34:19Jesse Michels?

  A lot of people do change.

• 1:34:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I got lucky in that, um, my fame was a nice, slow trickle. It took some time, so I got accustomed to it. And then the psychedelics, that helps a lot. And it's also jujitsu and martial arts, which really keep you humble. You know, like, all through my days of getting, uh, more and more famous through Fear Factor and through, you know, comedy and the podcast, I was training all the time. So, no matter what you think you are, or who you think you are, I'm going into jujitsu class and I'm getting manhandled. Strangled and arm barred on a regular basis by good friends. You know, and we're doing it to each other, you know, three, four days a week, depending on what my timeline was.

• 1:35:06Speaker 02

  And then when I'm not doing that, I'm running in the mountains with my dog, I'm lifting weights, I beat myself up. So I break myself down, uh, where I can be clean. Like, where I don't, the way I think of it is like, I think you have a certain amount of built-in energy that a person naturally expects to expend in a biological life. Especially when you consider the fact that our bodies are essentially biologically almost identical to people that lived 10,000 years ago, right? Well, 10,000 years ago, there's a lot of requirements that you don't really have today. Like, you had to be able to run away from things, you had to be able to fight things, you had to be able to pick things up. I think you get a general feeling of anxiety

• 1:35:52Speaker 02

  if you don't address the requirements that your body has for energy expenditure. And, um, the, one of the ways that I stay balanced is by humbling myself through very difficult exercise. Cold plunging, sauna, cold plunging is one of the best psychologically. Cause it's, every time I do it, I almost don't do it. I do it every day, but I almost don't do it every day. Every day I almost don't do it. I go to that lid. I'm like, I don't want to do this. And then that part of my brain goes, shut the fuck up, put the lid there, climb in, set the timer, just sit there. And um, doing stuff like that, it keeps you humble. And then also, uh, I really love your show and I really love Danny's show.

• 1:36:37Speaker 02

  And um, I'm really happy that I get to do what I do. And I'm really happy that more people can do it. And I want to encourage more people and help more people. Because it's the best form of entertainment to me. Like, that's why I had uh, um, AJ on from the Y-Files. And I've actually known him and his brother. I knew his brother for like decades.

• 1:36:57Jesse Michels?

  They were on your show?

• 1:36:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:59Jesse Michels?

  AJ Speedweed.

• 1:37:00Speaker 02

  Yes, Gino, yeah. So when Gino was um, when he was uh, telling me that he was doing a uh, a podcast. I was like, oh, good luck. Like, there's too many. They're like, uh, I, you know, I'm like, you smell weed, bro. You're really gonna do a podcast? You know, but it's fucking great.

• 1:37:17Jesse Michels?

  Massively.

• 1:37:18Speaker 02

  Really good.

• 1:37:19Jesse Michels?

  So entertaining.

• 1:37:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's completely taken off and it's excellent. So like, I always, you know, I think you have an obligation to let people know about stuff that's cool.

• 1:37:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:30Speaker 02

  And, you know, and help if you can.

• 1:37:32Jesse Michels?

  So cool.

• 1:37:33Speaker 02

  It's, it's easy to do, man. And people make it look like it's a big deal, but it's not. Like, it's so easy to do. It's like, why would that be, why is it so difficult to just help people and be nice? It's, it's so easy to do. It's so easy to just have interesting people like yourself or Danny on the podcast or AJ or, or a variety of Ben Van Quirkwick from uh, Uncharted X, all these people, like, have them on. Like, why, why was, why is that, it seems good. It seems overall good for everybody.

• 1:38:01Jesse Michels?

  You, you know, Danny just uh, hosted the number one uh, moon landing uh, hoax debunker, Bart Sybrell, who you have, have an amazing episode with. And the, one of the last living Apollo astronauts, Charlie Duke, who's 90 years old, and they went at it.

• 1:38:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know Danny texted me clips. He also told me that now he's convinced we didn't go to the moon.

• 1:38:24Jesse Michels?

  He said that to me too. He was like, I think maybe they were MKUltra to think they went to the moon. Cause he just, apparently Charlie Duke just kept saying the same thing, which is like, I'm telling you how to bring back 200 pounds of moon rocks.

• 1:38:35Speaker 14

  We spent 72 hours on the moon. We brought back 200 and... If I remember, 200 pounds of moon rocks or their bowels. Where did 200 pounds of moon rocks come from?

• 1:38:48Speaker 18

  I just showed you. Von Braun picked him up from Antarctica. There's a picture of that on the web. Picking up lunar meteorites before he went to the moon for the first time. Seems like a weird use of his time. Moon rocks have proven to be fake. And according to a contractor that I spoke to at length, he says NASA has ceramics labs, which can mimic moon rocks.

• 1:39:09Speaker 14

  Well, I walked on the moon. I don't know of anybody else, but.

• 1:39:13Speaker 18

  Right. Yeah, you keep saying that. We know that. We've been saying it for 56 years and you're not going to admit your guilt. Nobody who was, you know, brought to trial for.

• 1:39:21Speaker 19

  We're just trying to.

• 1:39:22Speaker 18

  crime ever admitted their guilt either.

• 1:39:24Speaker 19

  Each piece of evidence and trying to rationally analyze what it means and let the audience decide.

• 1:39:31Speaker 02

  Well, imagine, look, I described my dream and my memory of my dream, which is really just my memory of my recollection of my dream. Imagine what his is like. What is his memories like? You know, I can tell you memories of profound things like, like knockouts from fights that I had. I don't really remember them that well. Like somebody sent me a video that's on YouTube of me knocking out this guy in 1987 with a spinning back kick to the body. And it's like kind of crazy video because the guy goes flying through the air.

• 1:40:04Jesse Michels?

  It's your famous kick.

• 1:40:04Speaker 02

  I barely remember it. Barely remember it because I, well, one, I fought so many times. But also it's just too long ago. I know I did it. I just, and then I saw the video. I was like, oh, that's how it happened. Wow. That's kind of crazy, but I don't really remember it. I remember my retelling of my memory. And now imagine it's a retelling of a memory from 1969 and you're, you're fucking Biden's age.

• 1:40:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:33Speaker 02

  You know, you're out there, man. He's barely there. If you listen to that guy when he's talking, like he's got a old battery brain, you know? He's not like those, those dudes in the Sumerian kings list that were 30,000 years old and sharp as a tack. No, this guy's, he's old, you know?

• 1:40:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:51Speaker 02

  I think the.

• 1:40:52Jesse Michels?

  But the Bart episode, like your Bart episode and you steel man the entire time, the conventional like.

• 1:40:59Speaker 02

  He got very frustrated that I was doing that.

• 1:41:01Jesse Michels?

  He did, but you, you had to do it.

• 1:41:02Speaker 02

  You have to.

• 1:41:03Jesse Michels?

  You have to. And I came out of that being like. I'm kinda on the fence. Like, you know, I invest in space stuff and like I have a lot of friends in that world and like they are adamant that we went to the moon. You know, there's supposedly like, you know, lunar imagery that, you know, of the, the landing site, the Apollo landing site. But it's hard to say. I mean, there's a lot of weird stuff too. You were talking about the flammability of, for example, hyperbaric chambers.

• 1:41:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:28Jesse Michels?

  There's that whole Gus Grissom, the guy who was supposed to walk on the moon, who they reversed the doors and then they, they made it 100% oxygen. Then he blew up inside the thing.

• 1:41:37Speaker 02

  Also Gus Grissom had hung a lemon on a hanger. He hung a lemon on a coat hanger outside of that thing. Because he said, "We can't even communicate with the tower. How are we ever going to communicate when we're in space?"

• 1:41:47Speaker 18

  He was so frustrated, he kept complaining up the chain of command. They wouldn't fix anything. Because the higher ups knew they weren't gonna go and hadn't committed yet to faking it and therefore hadn't told the astronauts yet. And in his fury, without permission, he held a press conference. He invited a bunch of reporters to the top of the rocket. Where he affixed a lemon the size of a grapefruit on a coat hanger. He said, "This thing is a lemon, a piece of junk." Made the evening news. And a few days later, he dies. His wife told me that on January 26th, 1967, he came home from work and said the following, "Hon, for some strange reason, the CIA is all over the launch pad today.

• 1:42:30Speaker 18

  I wonder why they're here inspecting the equipment. Never seen him here before." He's dead the very next day from faulty equipment.

• 1:42:38Jesse Michels?

  So crazy.

• 1:42:39Speaker 02

  This is what I say to people that think this is all foolish. Watch the Apollo 11 post-flight press conference. Watch it. It's like a hostage video.

• 1:42:48Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:42:49Speaker 02

  It's three guys that look like they're completely full of shit. They look nervous, they're fumbling. It's interesting, there's a guy online who is a, um, he's a body language expert. And, uh, he watched it and gave his notes on it. He's like, "These guys are clearly being deceptive." Like, they're being deceptive. They're being deceptive. They're uncomfortable. They don't like that they have to do this. The way Neil Armstrong is describing the flight is so fucking bizarre. And then he gives this speech 25 years later at the anniversary of the moon landing to all the brightest high school kids. And he says-

• 1:43:25Speaker 20

  There are great ideas undiscovered. Breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of truth's protective layers.

• 1:43:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, what does that mean? What is, what the fuck does that mean? Why don't you just say, hey, I went to the moon. I went to the moon and you guys, one day you'll go to Mars and we will colonize the galaxy. And thank you to you brave, brilliant young students for pushing ahead and carrying the torch that, you know, we took to the moon on Apollo 11. Like, no.

• 1:44:02Speaker 10

  Yep.

• 1:44:02Speaker 02

  It's weird, weird stuff, man. It's also Michael Collins in the press conference clearly says, we couldn't see any stars. We couldn't see any stars.

• 1:44:13Speaker 20

  We were never able to see stars from the lunar surface or on the daylight side of the moon by eye without looking through the optics. I don't recall during the period of time that we were photographing the Sona Perla, what, what stars we could see.

• 1:44:29Speaker 02

  I don't remember seeing any.

• 1:44:32Speaker 02

  Then in his own book, which I think he wrote in 1994, he talks about how magnificent the stars were.

• 1:44:38Speaker 10

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:44:39Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, fuckface, you weren't even supposed to be on the moon. Okay, you were, you were up there, they were on the moon. Like, did you forget? Like, what? I don't recall seeing any stars? Well, you're in the fucking thing, get your limited script. You're in the thing, you're not on the ground. The intersecting shadows, people like to try to dismiss them. They say, oh, well, it could be because of the topography and it could, it could also be more than one light source and that's more likely. When you got a shadow going like this and a shadow going like that. Well, we know we went to the moon, so let's come up with another explanation. Let's not assume we went to the moon and let's look at that and say, is that the sun?

• 1:45:24Speaker 02

  Or is that multiple light sources at close range? It seems like there's a hotspot. It seems like there's multiple light sources at close range. And then there's videos that clearly show some sort of a reflection of wires when they're bouncing around on the moon's surface. If you speed it up, it looks preposterous because it looks like they're just in slow-mo. There's videos that it looks like they're bouncing around on trampolines. The physics are not the same in Apollo 11 as they are on Apollo 15 and 16. All of a sudden, they can cover great distances. They're doing these weird giant long leaps that they weren't doing before. The whole thing's weird. It's also during a time where they were completely full of shit about everything.

• 1:46:07Jesse Michels?

  You had three networks.

• 1:46:08Speaker 02

  They lied about the Gulf of Tonkin incident that led us into Vietnam. They lied about who killed JFK. They lied about everything.

• 1:46:15Jesse Michels?

  MKUltra.

• 1:46:16Speaker 02

  Everything. Charles Manson. Everything was bullshit. All of it was bullshit. Operation Northwoods. There was all these things that were going on at the same time. So it's like they were more than accustomed to lying. Why would they tell the truth and nothing but the truth about this one thing?

• 1:46:32Jesse Michels?

  And the Gemini 15 photo, I think as you've pointed out, is verifiably fake.

• 1:46:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:46:37Jesse Michels?

  So we know that they did fake.

• 1:46:38Speaker 02

  Explain what that photo was.

• 1:46:40Jesse Michels?

  Do you want to explain it?

• 1:46:40Speaker 02

  Well, it's Michael Collins and it's Michael Collins purportedly doing a spacewalk. But really it was a training mission where they had him strapped in these harnesses and they just blacked out the background and pretended he was in space.

• 1:46:53Jesse Michels?

  And we know.

• 1:46:54Speaker 02

  We know that. Yeah, that's a fact.

• 1:46:56Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:46:56Speaker 02

  So we know they were lying. We also know, I don't know if you watched my episode with Bart, but Bart has this footage of where they're running images of the Apollo photographs through AI to detect whether or not they've been manipulated.

• 1:47:11Speaker 18

  Play the clip, D27, where Putin was at this conference, the AI conference of two years ago in Moscow. They were allowed to play with this, you know, AI that's not available to the public. Ten AIs scrunge together and it said the Apollo pictures were fake.

• 1:47:49Speaker 19

  So there will be no bias. It's surprising, but it does believe so.

• 1:47:54Speaker 19

  The neural network has analyzed a lot of data, including light and dark contrast, etc. And then it believes the photo is synthetic.

• 1:48:04Jesse Michels?

  I saw that and Putin is looking at the video and he's like not surprised that that checks out as fake.

• 1:48:11Speaker 02

  My friend who was from Russia said that in high school, they were teaching that the moon landing was a hoax.

• 1:48:16Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 1:48:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:48:17Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:48:18Speaker 02

  Yes. Now, I don't know if that was just one cool teacher that was like, "Bro, I saw this documentary."

• 1:48:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:24Speaker 02

  Or if it was like standard, that they would teach that the moon landing was bullshit.

• 1:48:28Jesse Michels?

  Well, you have the Van Allen radiation belt and Danny brings this up on his podcast, where James Van Allen, who, you know, it's named after, is saying that is 150 times what a normal human can take radiation wise.

• 1:48:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:48:42Jesse Michels?

  And once you're there, you get incinerated.

• 1:48:44Speaker 02

  Also, they never even sent a chicken through that and had it come back alive.

• 1:48:47Jesse Michels?

  And there, I think Werner Von Braun's on record saying like, "This is impossible." Like, "You can't do this."

• 1:48:52Speaker 02

  Not only that, well, say, "Oh, there's a hole over Antarctica and there's a, because it's a donut shaped thing." Yeah, but that's not where you went through. If you follow the path, also, the, all the telemetry data was destroyed, which is crazy. That's the, the, the exact telemetry, the distance between the module and the, the rocket and the, the earth and at every stage of the mission, all that's destroyed. The original footage is destroyed. We have copies. Well, it's all we have is copies. So you can't tell like, "Oh, this is clearly manipulated. This is monkey, they monkeyed around with these images." So it's like, there's so much of it that leads you to think that it's a hoax. And then there's also the big one. The big one is, name one other thing from 1969 that's not cheaper, easier and faster to reproduce today.

• 1:49:36Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 1:49:36Speaker 02

  One, moon, moon travel, space travel. That's the only one.

• 1:49:40Jesse Michels?

  It's the only one.

• 1:49:41Speaker 02

  It's the only one.

• 1:49:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, and what's crazy is if you look at Starship, which is 5,000 metric tons, so it's two times the size of the Saturn V rocket. It has to go to low Earth orbit. It burns up nine tenths of its fuel tank just to get there. And then another one has to go up, do butt to butt refueling with it. You have to do that 10 times before you get a full starship. And then that thing will go to the moon.

• 1:50:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:09Jesse Michels?

  That's crazy.

• 1:50:10Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 1:50:10Jesse Michels?

  And we're just experimenting with this now, you know, like we, we have issues. I think we just upgraded the amount of raptor engines on Starship.

• 1:50:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was just there.

• 1:50:19Jesse Michels?

  You were just there?

• 1:50:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:20Jesse Michels?

  You were in Brownsville or?

• 1:50:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:21Jesse Michels?

  Cool.

• 1:50:21Speaker 02

  I guess that's what it's called, Brownsville.

• 1:50:23Jesse Michels?

  I think so, in Texas.

• 1:50:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, on the border of Mexico, yeah. I watched the launch.

• 1:50:27Jesse Michels?

  How was that?

• 1:50:27Speaker 02

  Insane.

• 1:50:28Jesse Michels?

  Was it Falcon 9 or Starship?

• 1:50:29Speaker 02

  It's two miles away. I don't know which one it was. Um, it's two miles away and you feel it in your chest. It's two miles away and you have to wear earplugs. Two miles away. It's two miles away. You're putting foam in your ears and still it's like

• 1:50:46Speaker 02

  and you're like, whoa. His kids start freaking out. Uh, there's a video that I put online.

• 1:50:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:51Speaker 02

  Where his kid's like, I want to go inside. You could tell like the kid was like, what the fuck? And it's two miles away.

• 1:50:58Jesse Michels?

  That's so wild.

• 1:51:00Speaker 02

  It's nuts. And so think, think of the Saturn V was, you know, not as good as that.

• 1:51:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and on the first try, SpaceX almost went bankrupt. Elon's like, I think should be kind of heralded for this. He poured a lot of his own money into it. And it, it, you know, by the seat of his pants succeeded on the fourth attempt. If that had blown up by his own admission, the company would have failed. And the only like aerospace feat in the United States that we've ever pulled off perfectly on time is the moon landing.

• 1:51:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:31Jesse Michels?

  And it's with humans on board. It's pretty, pretty, pretty interesting.

• 1:51:34Speaker 02

  There's also the uncovered footage that Bart has that shows them saying that they're 230,000 miles out or, or

• 1:51:43Jesse Michels?

  130,000.

• 1:51:44Speaker 02

  130,000, halfway, right? They're halfway to the moon. And, uh, they're filming this through

• 1:51:50Speaker 02

  A window and they're saying that the camera while they're saying in the recording, the camera's pressed against the glass. So we get a view of earth. But when the film plays out, you realize they're in a larger room. The camera's further back. They've blacked out everything except this one round window. And through that round window, you're getting this vision of what the earth looks like. You think the earth is that big. And then as they pull the covers off the other windows, you're like, you guys are in earth's orbit.

• 1:52:23Speaker 21

  Yes.

• 1:52:23Speaker 02

  Like that's you just took a circle of the earth and pretended it's the whole earth.

• 1:52:27Speaker 21

  You see the astronaut's arm moving between the camera.

• 1:52:30Speaker 02

  Moving in between the camera and the window. And you're like, what's the explanation of that?

• 1:52:35Speaker 21

  Yeah.

• 1:52:35Speaker 02

  If you really are 130,000 miles out, why is the earth so bright?

• 1:52:38Speaker 21

  Yeah.

• 1:52:38Speaker 02

  Why are you so close?

• 1:52:39Speaker 18

  David Percy, a cinematographer, award-winning BBC cinematographer, said they took a photograph from an unmanned satellite. And they had like a positive or kind of like an X-ray, but a color print that was translucent and they put it over the window. The camera was never up against the glass. It was at the back of the spacecraft. They closed the iris down so that the walls became black. And here they are removing part of the effect in front of the window.

• 1:53:09Speaker 19

  Would it be that bright?

• 1:53:10Speaker 18

  Yeah.

• 1:53:11Speaker 19

  130,000 miles away, if that window was facing the earth at 130,000 miles out, is that how bright it would be?

• 1:53:17Speaker 14

  It's facing more to the sun than the earth.

• 1:53:20Speaker 19

  Well, the video is claiming, according to the video, Neil is saying that that's the earth.

• 1:53:25Speaker 14

  That wouldn't be the earth, wouldn't it?

• 1:53:27Speaker 19

  That would not be the earth.

• 1:53:28Speaker 14

  That picture's not the earth.

• 1:53:29Speaker 19

  No.

• 1:53:29Speaker 18

  Well, it is the earth. That's the reflection off of the earth.

• 1:53:32Speaker 21

  Cause I'm also a cinematographer and I would say that that window, that that's probably the color of the window and the sun is, can you see this mouse? Yeah, the sun is probably somewhere over here poking through. You can see these rays shooting in right there.

• 1:53:45Speaker 02

  Or you're in low earth orbit and you faked it because no satellite, no space station, no, no human being for sure, other than the Apollo astronauts has ever been more than 300 miles. They get to right there and that's it and they come back down. The only people that have gone past that, including the Russians, the only people are the Apollo astronauts.

• 1:54:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:06Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 1:54:06Jesse Michels?

  And then you have the Apollo goodwill tour where I think it was through Neil Armstrong. The American ambassador ended up with this moon rock or whatever. Went to the, the former prime minister of the Netherlands, gave him the thing. This thing was like insured, put in a museum for like a whole lot of money.

• 1:54:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:22Jesse Michels?

  And then like two thousand and seven or eight or something, they're like, this is petrified wood. It's so crazy. They didn't even give him an asteroid.

• 1:54:30Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 1:54:31Jesse Michels?

  They didn't even take a meteorite. They did, they took a fucking piece of wood like here's stupid. Hey, we got this from the moon, bro. Should be thanking us.

• 1:54:39Speaker 19

  What was the biggest moon rock that you brought back?

• 1:54:41Speaker 14

  Big newly I picked up, go left. Is that big newly? We picked up that one, big newly.

• 1:54:48Speaker 19

  Okay. Yeah, it looks absolutely nothing like the petrified wood on the left.

• 1:54:51Speaker 14

  No.

• 1:54:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, the whole thing is, is, it's so brazen and it's so, it's so clunky. The whole thing's so clunky and the filming of it, the first time they filmed, it was the first time that the, the news stations weren't allowed to have a direct feed. So they had a film, they had to point their cameras at a projection screen. And that's why it looks so crappy when you watch it on TV, it looks weird. Because they wanted to make it as weird as possible because like it's not that good. Like they don't want people going, that's fake, you know? And look, there's a bunch of people that were involved in the, the moon landing that wound up dying. You know, um, one of them, oh, I wish I could remember his name.

• 1:55:35Speaker 02

  I used to be able to, I used to be like knee deep into this every day and I used to be able to remember this guy's name. But this guy was hired by NASA. You'll probably find his name. He was hired by NASA to give an assessment of what the probability of their success was. And he said NASA was in such complete disarray and the moon landing program was so dysfunctional that there was no chance that they were going to get to the moon in five years. That guy parked his car on a train track with his family inside of it.

• 1:56:04Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 1:56:04Speaker 02

  And died. Yeah.

• 1:56:06Speaker 08

  Then exactly one week after he testified, Barron's car was struck by a train.

• 1:56:12Speaker 08

  Baron, his wife and stepdaughter were killed instantly.

• 1:56:18Speaker 02

  And that 500-page report vanished.

• 1:56:22Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 1:56:23Speaker 02

  Yep. Nobody ever saw it again.

• 1:56:24Jesse Michels?

  And who does that with their family if they're not coerced? Like, taking yourself out is one thing.

• 1:56:29Speaker 02

  I don't think he did that. I think they killed him.

• 1:56:31Jesse Michels?

  That's 100%.

• 1:56:32Speaker 02

  And they killed his family and they, they put him on this fucking train track. Well, it was either his family or his wife. I forget what it was, but.

• 1:56:39Jesse Michels?

  Jesus.

• 1:56:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. He wrote a 500-page report on what disarray NASA was in and they killed him. And Gus Grisham's family to this day believes that they murdered him because he was saying that the, the program was a lemon.

• 1:56:52Jesse Michels?

  They said the CIA was on the landing pad right after he did that little press conference thing and.

• 1:56:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. There's very few explanations to why that happened the way it happened. When they reversed the door, they sealed them inside of it. They couldn't get out. It didn't even make any sense.

• 1:57:08Jesse Michels?

  And then you have the fact that Neil Armstrong, you know, his second mission when he's back on land was to this thing, the Teos Cave. Have you heard of this? Do you know what this is?

• 1:57:17Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:57:17Jesse Michels?

  In 1975, he brought a BBC film crew to explore what he thought was, you know, maybe an alien cave at the edge of the Amazon in Ecuador. This had been in the lore for like many years. In fact, Eric Von Daniken, who we both had lunch with, talks about this in The Chariots of the Gods. It's like, it's this cave that contains ancient alien metallic artifacts.

• 1:57:40Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 1:57:40Jesse Michels?

  So I think it's so fascinating that Neil Armstrong, you know, who presumably you'd think would be dogmatically opposed to aliens, like wouldn't be into this at all. Like you think of Edgar Mitchell as the only Apollo astronaut who's into aliens.

• 1:57:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:57:52Jesse Michels?

  His second mission is on land, trying to find this Teos Cave with this crew. It's so trippy.

• 1:57:59Speaker 02

  Well, you know about the labyrinth that they found in Egypt?

• 1:58:03Jesse Michels?

  No. Oh, the Ben Van Kirkwick's? That is so trippy.

• 1:58:06Speaker 02

  The 40-meter metallic object that's shaped like a Tic Tac?

• 1:58:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:12Speaker 02

  That's under the ground?

• 1:58:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:14Speaker 02

  There's a 40-meter object that's in that labyrinth that's in some vast corridor. That's metallic.

• 1:58:21Jesse Michels?

  So crazy.

• 1:58:21Speaker 02

  It's one solid piece. It's forty meters.

• 1:58:25Jesse Michels?

  So crazy.

• 1:58:26Speaker 22

  But one of the most interesting facts that came out of this scan was it seems like in this massive central atrium, that's, that's this one big giant open room, forty, fifty meters long, that connects to all of these levels, there seems to be this unidentified metallic object that's freestanding in this room. It's about forty meters long and it seems to be tic tac shaped is what, is what this report said. So.

• 1:58:47Speaker 02

  It's a fucking UFO. There's a UFO in Egypt. Have you ever asked anyone that has any inkling of any idea of where they got them? Or how they got them?

• 1:59:00Speaker 04

  At least one of them was part of an archaeological dig. So it's old. Something, one, at least one of them is old. I don't know if it was the one I worked on, but I remember something to do with an archaeological dig.

• 1:59:14Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 1:59:15Speaker 04

  So that's, uh, that means it's not just old, it's ancient.

• 1:59:19Jesse Michels?

  What is that? We need to go down and figure out what that is.

• 1:59:22Speaker 02

  And the crazy thing is, Ben Van Kirkwick's, uh, episode, can't recommend it enough, uh, Uncharted X, and it's all about this labyrinth. What happened was they put up a dam. And when they put up a dam to help the farmers out, they diverted the water and the water filled up this labyrinth. And so, yeah, I know. And that's the nineteen sixties.

• 1:59:45Jesse Michels?

  This labyrinth that like Herodotus and Pliny the Elder say was like the grandest chamber.

• 1:59:50Speaker 02

  Greater than Giza.

• 1:59:51Jesse Michels?

  Greater than Giza. Yeah, that's what, everybody who studies this says that, like, the cherry on top are the pyramids, but it's really this underground city.

• 2:00:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:01Jesse Michels?

  That they're studying. And then you have Zahi Was being like, it's bullshit.

• 2:00:07Speaker 02

  It was the national project. That's how they did it. Yeah, he's, uh, silly. But, you know, that's, it's good to have a guy like that on, cause you get to see, oh, that's the other side, the, the ridiculous dogmatic side that doesn't want to accept the possibility that there's a lot of mystery here, a lot of mystery.

• 2:00:26Jesse Michels?

  So much.

• 2:00:26Speaker 02

  And so they're, they're very opposed to this labyrinth thing too, but. You can't deny it. Well, he's opposed to the radial tomography. He's opposed to a lot of things because they take away his power. You know, and there's always going to be these gatekeeper fellows that get in the way of progress. But I think, I think that's also by design because it makes people more enthusiastic about their pursuit of the truth. It makes, because you see a guy like that, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to have him on. I wanted people to see like, this is what holds the truth back, this kind of stuff. And you know, like when you have certain archaeologists and people in the world that are like, not just dismissive of guys like Graham Hancock, but say horrible insults about him, say terrible things that aren't true.

• 2:01:09Speaker 02

  He's a wonderful person. I've known him for a long time now. He's a sweetheart of a guy. And they just try to make him out to be this terrible, but that exposes them. It exposes like, what is, why are you so afraid of these ideas? Why are you so vehemently opposed? Why do you call Ancient Apocalypse the most dangerous show on television? Why do you equate it to racism? What, what is that? Because you're afraid you're losing control of a narrative. You've, you're a fool and you've been selling nonsense for a long time. You know some things and that's wonderful. Archaeology, we're, look, we owe them an amazing debt of gratitude. They've uncovered so many truths. They know, we know so much about the history of the world, but only so much.

• 2:01:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:50Speaker 02

  And you're so arrogant because you're in control of this information. And you don't want anybody else who's not a part of your silly little group of people that is, does deem themselves the only purveyors of truth. That's what's horseshit. Like, bro, we invented universities. Humans did.

• 2:02:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:07Speaker 02

  We, in modern times, okay, the idea that you're the only ones that can talk about these things.

• 2:02:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:13Speaker 02

  It's crazy when, I bet Ben Van Kirkwick knows a fuckload more about it than Flint Dibble.

• 2:02:18Jesse Michels?

  He has to because he doesn't have the credentials. I think they have to be more rigorous.

• 2:02:22Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 2:02:23Jesse Michels?

  And it's like, yeah.

• 2:02:24Speaker 02

  Also, they're obsessed.

• 2:02:25Jesse Michels?

  They're obsessed.

• 2:02:26Speaker 02

  Well, these guys aren't really obsessed because if they were, they'd know all these things too.

• 2:02:29Jesse Michels?

  No, it's more about the credentials and the posturing and the identity or whatever.

• 2:02:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, their, their social structure, it's very rigid and they're bitchy. They cut each other down, it's a horrible thing. They, oh god, they backstab, they try to ruin each other's reputations.

• 2:02:45Jesse Michels?

  And Graham Hancock on Ancient Apocalypse is showing footprints in North America and they're still saying like that people cross the Bering Strait or whatever. It's like you're,

• 2:02:53Speaker 02

  Twenty-two thousand year old footprints.

• 2:02:55Jesse Michels?

  Twenty-two thousand year old footprints.

• 2:02:56Speaker 02

  And that's just what we found. That's the big thing, man. It's just what we found, you know? And as Graham always says, things just keep getting older.

• 2:03:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And now we have three-fingered mummies in Peru.

• 2:03:10Speaker 02

  That episode that you did was probably my favorite because that, out of all the stories, oh my god, the craft came over the base. Oh, those are all cool. Those are all cool. But man, when you guys did those scans of those tridactyl, whatever they are, alien looking things, and you see the ligaments and the bones and the tendon structure, and you're like, okay, that's a real thing. Like, this is a real being.

• 2:03:34Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:03:35Speaker 02

  Now that we know that these physically, they physically exist, well, they can be studied. Like, you could take some genes from them. We could, we could find out what these things are, you know?

• 2:03:46Jesse Michels?

  I think that's being done.

• 2:03:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:03:49Jesse Michels?

  I'm very excited about it. I don't want to telegraph it too much because Peru just put up a bill saying that you can't study ancient biological specimens, probably in a response to this video we made. And so, you know.

• 2:04:01Speaker 02

  Why? This is the question. When you, who would look at those tridactyl mummies and not go, oh my god, we need to get our brightest minds on this because this seems to be evidence of a different kind of life form that might have existed with us. So if this thing existed with us, and we do think that there is some sort of a breakout civilization that lives in the ocean,

• 2:04:27Speaker 02

  well, we know that these things were real. And these are the things that people keep seeing. They keep seeing these slender things with big heads and large eyes, which is exactly what that tridactyl mummy looks like.

• 2:04:40Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:04:40Speaker 02

  Like, we might have actual evidence that there's another species that shares this planet with us.

• 2:04:46Jesse Michels?

  And it's crazy, I think there's like a syndrome you get when you're used to the campfire stories, the ephemeral stories, where when the thing is staring you in the face, you don't believe it.

• 2:04:55Speaker 02

  What was it like?

• 2:04:56Jesse Michels?

  It was insane. I mean, it was, it was. I was trying to like, I think it, I think it broke my brain a little bit. I think this whole year's been like a process of my brain breaking a little bit. It's, it was like an affront to like everything I'm used to seeing and even me, cause I like systematically, like you, like look into these things. But like, being there was freaky. And I got, it's funny, like, maybe this is a trippy weird statement, but like, I got sick for like a few weeks after that. And actually Brigham Buehler, who I love, who introduced us, like resuscitated me before your podcast.

• 2:05:29Speaker 02

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 2:05:30Jesse Michels?

  And, and I, it almost felt like just being around that. I don't think I got some weird alien virus, but like, it was like, it broke my like ego or something. Like I was like, I couldn't believe it.

• 2:05:41Speaker 02

  Well, probably just the stress of it all.

• 2:05:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:44Speaker 02

  Of, of encountering an actual mummy of a life form that seems to be exactly like the beings from Close Encounters.

• 2:05:51Jesse Michels?

  A hundred percent. And feeling so unqualified, being like, why am I here? Like with these people? Like this feels so weird. Like this, it's this vigilante, like, you know, ragtag team of like me and my friends.

• 2:06:02Speaker 02

  That, I think that's how it happens.

• 2:06:03Jesse Michels?

  You think is.

• 2:06:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you and I and Danny and all these people that are like, why am I, why are people paying attention to me? I think that's better than someone who goes forth with this idea that they're super important and they're the ones that are gonna break the story.

• 2:06:21Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:06:22Speaker 02

  They're the ones that are gonna get the scoop.

• 2:06:23Jesse Michels?

  Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That always backfires.

• 2:06:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:06:27Jesse Michels?

  It's like such bad energy. Yeah.

• 2:06:28Speaker 02

  It's bad energy. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a bad intention. Like you're going into it with the wrong intentions.

• 2:06:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:36Jesse Michels?

  Do you, do you think along the lines of the pyramids in Egypt, do you think there's gonna be a disclosure around what those were built for? Is there gonna be a combination of the Christopher Dunn stuff, the Robert Shock stuff where they're like aligned via the last procession with Orion's Belt and Graham Hancock talks about this too? Where and maybe the Book of Enoch where like, you know, I asked Graham Hancock point blank, what do you think their actual function was if they weren't a tomb? And he almost implied that they were like a Stargate. When it comes to the pyramids themselves lining up with the Orion's Belt, Orion's Belt has always, across many cultures, been the place of ascension of souls.

• 2:07:12Speaker 23

  Absolutely. It is here in North America and in Central America and in South America. The path of souls, that idea that on death we, our soul makes a kind of leap up to the heavens and then makes a journey along the Milky Way. And that that journey is full of challenges and difficulties on which we will be assessed for the use we made of the incredible gift of life. That idea is found all over the world.

• 2:07:42Jesse Michels?

  And Ben Van Kirkwick on your show talks about how literal translations at Dendera move to Stargate, like the hieroglyphic. People are professionals at reading hieroglyphics, say, this is a Stargate.

• 2:07:55Speaker 22

  The Egyptians talk about Stargates.

• 2:07:57Jesse Michels?

  Do they?

• 2:07:58Speaker 22

  Do. Go to, where is it? Dendera. There's actually a couple of places. The literal translation, you can read it on the walls. I always show people when we go there. It is, there are two or three depictions of Stargates. That is the literal translation. You see the stars, the stars above the gates? So it's literally different. These, and with the words, they relate to specific constellations. This is in the top, the, what's the Zodiac Room at Dendera, where they have a replica of the circular Zodiac on the ceiling.

• 2:08:30Jesse Michels?

  That is bananas. So was it maybe like a portal of sorts or something?

• 2:08:37Speaker 02

  I mean, we could speculate all day long, but I do think we're going to know a lot about it within the next decade or so. I think there's going to be a tremendous amount of resistance for the next five or six years. But then I think as all this crazy AI innovation overwhelms us, because it will overwhelm us, it's going to transform society. I think we're going to lose an enormous amount of jobs. It's going to change the way civilization. Functions and that is going to be such a disruption that other disruptions will be more palatable. And so the disruptions about the history of our timeline is going to be more palatable.

• 2:09:15Speaker 02

  And I think we'll be able to, uh, I think a lot of educational institutions are collapsing. And they're, they're collapsing in terms of, um, like, like, you know, the, the Epstein thing that just happened with the, the guy was top dog at Harvard. Yeah, yeah, Larry Summers. I think a lot more of that's gonna happen. And I think a lot more people are gonna realize like what they realized during the hearings when they were interviewing the heads of Harvard and they said, if, if someone is saying, kill the Jews. And they're yelling this on campus. Is that considered hate speech? And they're like, well, only if it's actionable, like what?

• 2:10:00Speaker 02

  What are you saying? Like, how the fuck are you the head of Harvard? And I, I, I think not just, you know, the idea of like the woke mind virus or Marxist ideology. But there's no question that stuff has invaded, uh, a lot of our institutions of higher learning. And I think they're in disarray. And I think AI is going to replace the need for them, like almost entirely. It will be pointless to get a degree in coding. It's not going to matter. This fucking phone can do it in three seconds. Why are you gonna spend 300 days on something that could be instantaneously done? I think it's gonna remove a lot of, uh, the incentives for people to go and get degrees.

• 2:10:43Speaker 02

  And I think as time goes on, they are gonna dig their heels in and stay this kooky course they're on. We're not allowing real, objective, intellectual discourse, only allowing things to be discussed that align with their ideology, which is the opposite of higher learning, you know? Even if you are diametrically opposed and you, you vehemently opposed to an ideology, you should be able to argue against that ideology in a more convincing and profound way. That's what higher learning is supposed to be all about. They've abandoned that for activism. That's a death knell. They, they've signed their own death certificate. Yeah. So I think all these people that are, you know, in

• 2:11:23Speaker 02

  control of the narrative of ancient history and of archaeology and of the timeline of the human being itself.

• 2:11:32Speaker 02

  I think, because that's changing all the time. I mean, they just recently found a version of a human being that's 500,000 years older than we thought the first human came from. So they just pushed the timeline of a human being to a million years. Okay, well, that that might be wrong. Okay, it might be way earlier than then. We don't know yet. And I think once we're living in a post artificial general superintelligence world, all these supposed control centers of information will dissolve. I don't think they're going to have any, there's, there's not going to be any respectability to the name Harvard when you've got digital god.

• 2:12:16Speaker 02

  It won't mean anything that you graduated from Yale. So I'm telling you that this, these core samples are incorrect and you've, the data's wrong and we know, no one's sailed before 60,000, whatever it is. You're, you're, you're going to get a different way that human beings interact with information. I don't think there's going to be any gatekeepers of information anymore.

• 2:12:37Jesse Michels?

  And if you look at how science progresses, it's always the amateur polymaths or whatever. You look at electromagnetism, which was the tip of the spear in the 19th century. It was Michael Faraday, who was a bookbinder in South London. If you look at relativity, it was a patent clerk, you know, and Einstein, like, all these guys aren't taken seriously until they are.

• 2:12:57Speaker 02

  Yes, because you can't function inside that bitchy world. You know, because you can't one up your professor. You can't one up your, your, your elders, your peers. You have to, they'll, they try to keep each other down and they're ruthless in their dismissal of things that turn out to be totally accurate, like the Clovis first. The Clovis first hypothesis was that there was the first human beings that were here. I think it was like 13,000 years ago, was the Clovis people during the, and they thought that was true and then. This one guy found evidence of the contrary and they ruined his career. They ruined his career for like a fucking decade. They just, they relentlessly tormented this guy, dismissed him, used the worst language possible. And turns out he was right.

• 2:13:42Speaker 02

  And now they pushed it back even further and it keeps going further and they keep finding new artifacts. Like, okay, wait, this is from 60,000 years ago. What's going on? Is this, is this, was this made by a person? Like, what is this? And we're, I think those institutions have done themselves in. And they've served a great function for a long time. But I think, you know, they're, they're not necessary anymore. And I think in some ways they're counterproductive because it takes a lot. When you're a young kid and you're, you know, you're 18 years old or 17 years old and you leave high school. And then all of a sudden you're in a university, you're so malleable and there's so many social pressures for you to sort of,

• 2:14:25Speaker 02

  you, you, you just become your environment. You, you sort of give in to the, the zeitgeist of whatever the university has. And for a lot of people, it's like leftism and Marxism and socialism and, you know, and you're, you're all like fighting for like social cred and virtue signaling and you're just trying to stand out. And one of the ways to stand out is to be like the most virtuous, like Bob's so hardcore, you know, and like, and this is like this social game that's going on while you're also supposed to be educating these people. So what we're supposed to be doing in a really good, uh, higher institution of learning, you would be challenging all these suppositions. You'd be challenging all these preconceived notions that these people have.

• 2:15:08Speaker 02

  And you would be offering alternative perspectives and asking them to form the best argument. Who's right and who's wrong? You'd have debates and people would, it would be wonderful. People would get fascinated, but you know, you can't do that now because people do this safe space. And people will fucking set off fire alarms if they don't like that you say that trans women shouldn't be competing with biological women. Like with, they're so opposed to anything that doesn't align with their ideology that it's destroying the very purpose of their existence.

• 2:15:37Jesse Michels?

  You brought up the Epstein thing. I think that speaks to this feeling that a lot of people have that our government isn't our government. And it doesn't matter who's in charge, but we're, the rich are going to get richer, the poor are going to get poorer. We're all going to get somehow screwed. And you talk a lot about the Eisenhower speech, beware of the military and industrial complexes farewell address. Who do you think runs our government? I mean, I feel like you have as much access to anyone as anybody else. I mean, you are, you really have an amazing vantage and you, you explore this stuff sort of systematically. Do you have any sense of like, like the Epstein stuff's so crazy, you had the FBI director on your show and it's like, he's so clearly lying to you.

• 2:16:19Speaker 24

  I've said it, Dan Bongino said it. We've reviewed all the information and the American public is going to get as much as we can release. He killed himself.

• 2:16:26Speaker 02

  What did you think before you got in office? Did you think that Epstein was murdered?

• 2:16:30Speaker 24

  No.

• 2:16:31Jesse Michels?

  It's so crazy. He's just saying he killed himself. It's like, come on. And Dan Bongino looks like his head's going to pop every time he's seen in public. You feel the cognitive dissonance coming from him. So what is going on?

• 2:16:44Speaker 02

  Um, if we could play the Pink Floyd song, Money, right now? That'd be perfect. It's money. It's enormous corporations that, um, that fund this entire machine. It's the amount of money that they can gain by, uh, keeping narratives running exactly the, the way they are. It's the amount of money they would lose if truth is exposed in a bunch of different areas. And, uh, the same problem that we have with UAP disclosure is the same problem you have with the Epstein files. It's, it's money.

• 2:17:23Speaker 02

  And, you know, I mean, you think about how many people allegedly went to that island and allegedly are compromised. And because of those compromises, what kind of decisions were made in terms of international conflicts, in terms of laws that were passed, in terms of things that were not pushed back against? Who knows how much influence that has had on modern society? We won't, we don't know and hopefully we'll learn. Um, but there's going to be an enormous amount of pressure to not release the names of these wealthy and powerful people. And I bet that pressure is hitting the White House right now like a fucking tsunami. And if I was Bill Gates, I'd be texting Trump all day long.

• 2:18:08Speaker 02

  How are we feeling? How are we doing? You get that Massey guy? Fuck that guy. You know? I think this is probably chaos. It's probably chaos.

• 2:18:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:19Speaker 02

  You know, um, and uh, that's how it has to be, you know, um, the only way that things are going to change is if something radical happens. And I think this vote to release the files is something radical. The fact that it was 471 or 470 and one, one dude.

• 2:18:34Jesse Michels?

  One dude, that poor guy.

• 2:18:39Jesse Michels?

  So absurd.

• 2:18:39Speaker 02

  He must feel so bad.

• 2:18:40Jesse Michels?

  And he's like, rule of law. You're like, what are you talking about, dude? It's not the hell you want to die on.

• 2:18:46Speaker 02

  Look, this is a bad look, son.

• 2:18:48Jesse Michels?

  It's a new PR team.

• 2:18:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, boy, he's, it's over for him. He's cooked. He better go back to selling cars. That shit's over. It's over, son. Um, but I, you know, I don't know what they're going to release, right? Right now, I'm hoping that people are held accountable and I'm hoping we understand what the operation was and what it was about, because here's something weird about the operation. It involved a lot of scientists.

• 2:19:09Jesse Michels?

  A lot of scientists.

• 2:19:10Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 2:19:11Jesse Michels?

  Weird.

• 2:19:12Speaker 02

  You know, and um, if you talk to people, like I talked to Sean Carroll about it and he was like, it's not even a lot of money, man. He didn't even donate that much money. It was like, you know, like a million dollars here, a million dollars there. The guy's a billionaire supposedly through no.

• 2:19:26Jesse Michels?

  Nobody knows how.

• 2:19:27Speaker 02

  No one could explain.

• 2:19:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, none of it.

• 2:19:29Jesse Michels?

  Eric Weinstein's like, this isn't like a normal FX trader and somehow, but he like dies with like 500 million dollars. Which is also, it's like, okay, who wired him that money? How can we not figure that out?

• 2:19:40Speaker 02

  It's all super squirrely. It's super squirrely. And you know, and then there's Stacy Plaskett, who was texting with him. They're in the middle of uh, hearings, asking questions that he was prompting her to ask, like, what?

• 2:19:54Jesse Michels?

  I didn't even know that.

• 2:19:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, crazy. And she, she had to admit that. They got text messages of her and Epstein. Like texting her while she's the, in the middle of a hearing.

• 2:20:04Jesse Michels?

  What the?

• 2:20:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, bro, he's

• 2:20:07Jesse Michels?

  He's deep.

• 2:20:08Speaker 02

  Deep, deep in that world.

• 2:20:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:10Speaker 02

  And I, I think he probably compromised an enormous amount of people.

• 2:20:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:14Speaker 02

  And, um, and they can't do anything about it because at the end of the day, men are just monkeys. They're just monkeys. And if you tell that monkey, he's going to be safe. And you bring the monkey to an island and you give the monkey cocaine. And then you give the monkey a prostitute. And then the monkey's like, yay, I can come here and be safe. You know, I can, I can be what I want to be instead of what I'm pretending to be when the cameras are rolling.

• 2:20:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:38Speaker 02

  You know, and then you got them. And I think that's a, that's a tactic that's as old as time. The mob used to do that, you know, supposedly they did that with JFK. You know, this is, you know, men are very vulnerable to beautiful women. And then there's men that are probably sick. Sick, twisted pedophiles. And if you could identify them and provide them with what they want, then you have them, especially if they're in positions of power.

• 2:21:06Jesse Michels?

  Like our president, where he has the, the dress on, you know, the, the mural of Bill Clinton. And then, and then the, the Jingle Blocks of the, the two towers for nine 11 or whatever.

• 2:21:15Speaker 02

  Paper airplanes with Bush.

• 2:21:17Jesse Michels?

  Weird.

• 2:21:17Speaker 02

  It's so weird.

• 2:21:18Jesse Michels?

  And you know, Bill Gates's science advisor is the backup executor to Epstein's will. Fact. That is a fact. It's like, what is going on? It's so weird.

• 2:21:31Speaker 02

  Oh, it's so weird. Uh, I try to stay away from those kind of people, like all Illuminati types as much as possible.

• 2:21:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:39Speaker 02

  Even though I've been to the White House, I've, you know, met some very powerful people. I don't, I ain't going, I ain't going to no parties. I'm not going on any retreats. I don't do no conferences. I get invited to these conferences, like, like, um, like leaders of different industries, like they put together these conferences and they, and they invite me. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, what are you talking about?

• 2:22:06Jesse Michels?

  Like just pure nonsense.

• 2:22:08Speaker 02

  Oh, but it's just, they want you to be, uh, connected to them.

• 2:22:11Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:22:12Speaker 02

  And then when you're connected to them, you'll be less likely to criticize them. You'll, you know,

• 2:22:16Jesse Michels?

  Ah, yeah, they kind of tag you with that.

• 2:22:18Speaker 02

  You become friends with them. Yeah.

• 2:22:21Jesse Michels?

  That's really weird.

• 2:22:22Speaker 02

  Very slippery.

• 2:22:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:23Speaker 02

  Super, super slippery.

• 2:22:24Jesse Michels?

  And I feel like with academia, it's almost like the lameness of academia that you just described. Epstein like arbitrage that.

• 2:22:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:22:32Jesse Michels?

  And was like, you can come out and you know, like we'll pay you or whatever. And it's it's just incentives and shitty human nature.

• 2:22:41Speaker 02

  Turn you into a sex addict. Yeah.

• 2:22:44Jesse Michels?

  So weird.

• 2:22:44Speaker 02

  Sure be so easy to do for a lot of dorks. A lot of guys who are, you know, they're always like, like if you're a biological heterosexual male, you're attracted to beautiful women and you have no access to them because you're gross. And then all of a sudden you're hanging out with this guy and these girls think you're amazing because of your mind. You're so fascinating. I mean, all these cameras are rolling.

• 2:23:04Jesse Michels?

  You're Stephen Hawking and you've like, you know.

• 2:23:07Speaker 02

  They got him. He couldn't even wink.

• 2:23:08Jesse Michels?

  That's fair enough.

• 2:23:10Speaker 02

  Actually, I don't think you can blame him, but you can definitely blame a lot of those other guys. And I think that's a real problem because then the question is, what did he use those guys for? Like if he had compromising information on top level scientists, what, what was he doing? Like, what was he trying to get them to not talk about? What was he trying to get them to talk about? What narratives did he try to get them to?

• 2:23:32Jesse Michels?

  And science is like reality. So it's like, at that point you have like leverage over reality itself. And I think Michael Wolff, who looks horrible in these latest Epstein release or whatever. He's in it. And he wrote Fire and the Fury, that like expose of Trump or whatever. He looks like Epstein's PR guy in this. They like look super tight. And he's sitting on this big interview along with Bannon of Epstein, but he looks like, like you're a spook or something. It looks very sort of strange and nefarious. And he describes Epstein as running a reverse Ponzi scheme where he'll give advice to these like, you know, elites or whatever. Know how their shit is, and then he'll use that as leverage against them. So, yeah, I don't know.

• 2:24:16Speaker 02

  That kind of makes sense. There's probably a lot going on. I bet it was multi-layered. I bet it was. Probably blackmail, influence peddling. And there was also, there's a thing where if you could go to a place and you knew that George Clooney was gonna be there, like, I don't think he was there, but you know, just say that. You go to, not even say Epstein, let's say someone else. You go to a party and you find out, oh, Chris Rock's gonna be there, George Clooney. And I'll be like, oh, maybe I'll go. You know what I mean? Like, there's very famous people there.

• 2:24:46Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:24:46Speaker 02

  If you go and you say, oh, this Nobel Prize winner is going to be there. We're gonna have a discussion about quantum entanglement and this guy's gonna be here. He's gonna talk about the latest telescope technology and it should be a wonderful time. We're gonna have cocktails and gourmet food and it's just, you're not thinking anything. You're a fucking physicist. You know, you're some professor somewhere. And then all of a sudden, you're on a plane. Flying to this island and they meet you and they put a fucking flower thing on you. Come on the island. You're like, this is great.

• 2:25:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:17Speaker 02

  And then next thing you know, you get a phone call.

• 2:25:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:25:20Speaker 02

  And then you're freaking the fuck out. Like, what do you, what do you want me to do? Well, you know, there's a House Appropriations Bill that's coming up and we would like you to testify that this is a bad idea. So that, you know, or whatever it is. And then that person now has a mandate. You have a narrative that you have to fulfill. And you could use that, you could, you could point to, you think about how many different people are allegedly involved in this Epstein thing. And you think about how many different aspects of our reality, those people interact with. And you've got pop culture people, you've got computer programmers and technology experts. You've got heads of state. You've got heads of banks. You've got CEOs of enormous corporations.

• 2:26:04Speaker 02

  You've got heads of major universities. All of them, everyone. This fucking guy got everyone. You know? It's weird stuff, man.

• 2:26:12Jesse Michels?

  Systematic honey trap. Speaking of a government behind our government, who do you think killed JFK?

• 2:26:18Speaker 02

  Uh, probably the same guy that killed Obama's chef.

• 2:26:23Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know, man. Um, I don't think Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.

• 2:26:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:29Speaker 02

  But I don't think Lee Harvey Oswald was innocent.

• 2:26:32Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:26:32Speaker 02

  You know, the thing is, it's gotta be one or the other. Either Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman or there was a bunch of people, Nick Grassi Noel and a bunch of hired assassins took him out.

• 2:26:43Speaker 02

  I think clearly Lee Harvey Oswald was working with the CIA. It seems very clear. He not only lived in Russia for a while, married a Russian woman, brought her back to America, was involved in all sorts of weird communism stuff and he looked like a spook. He was behaving like an operative. And when he said, "I'm just a patsy."

• 2:27:09Speaker 02

  When they pulled him out and he said, "I'm just a patsy." Very convincing, very convincing, but also very calm. Notice that? Like if you were just accused of shooting the president, Jesse Michaels podcaster, you'd be like, "I didn't do it. I'm a fucking, I don't know what's going on. I did not fucking shoot the president." He's like, "I'm just a patsy." Like he's, that's a guy who's used to being rolled up. That's right. That's a guy who's used to being arrested. That's a guy who understands pressure. He probably understands the game he's playing and the business he's in. And that's why he said he's just a patsy with calm. And which is very odd. I think that's the most odd thing, other than the fact that Jack Ruby runs right up on him and shoots him in front of these cops,

• 2:27:52Speaker 02

  kills him, and then Jack Ruby goes to jail and has had no history of mental breakdowns before, gets a visit from Jolly West, who's the head of MKUltra, and then all of a sudden he's think Jews are on fire. He thinks he's in hell. It's like he's screaming. He's completely losing his mind and becomes totally incoherent. Right after a visit by Jolly West. And then all these things we're supposed to say like, "Oh, there's no conspiracy." There's nothing here. I, I just don't think Lee Harvey Oswald's innocent either. You know, he might have taken a shot. He might have even hit Kennedy. I don't know. The idea that he couldn't have made that shot from the schoolbook depository, that's bullshit. And people that say he's not a good marksman, it doesn't matter. That's not that far. It's about 140 yards.

• 2:28:35Speaker 02

  And if you have a scope and he had a scope, the other thing they say is, "Oh, the scope wasn't even on." That doesn't mean anything. I could knock a scope out off by just dropping it on the floor. You take a scope, a scope, you, you tighten everything in with these wrenches and you zero it in at whatever the yardage is. I assume usually 100 yards and you know, it's pretty accurate up to like 200 yards. You might want to like raise your, your, the, the crosshair's a little higher. He could easily have made that shot and he could easily have made three in a row. I could do it because you're resting on the, you have a flat surface that you're resting the rifle on, so you're super steady and it's, the car has to go slow. It's a terrible place to take a convertible with the president inside of it through, unless you were trying to kill him.

• 2:29:20Speaker 02

  Like it seems like it's almost designed as a trap.

• 2:29:25Speaker 02

  He could have been a part of it or someone else could have been in the schoolbook depository, made the, made at least one of those shots. I think there was multiple people shooting at him from multiple different angles. And there's evidence that shows that.

• 2:29:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:39Speaker 02

  There's evidence that shows that and there's also the magic bullet theory, which is a complete total horseshit.

• 2:29:44Jesse Michels?

  Complete bullshit.

• 2:29:45Speaker 02

  The dumbest one, the dumbest one.

• 2:29:47Jesse Michels?

  And, and he was operating before shooting him out of 554 Camp Street or 544 Camp Street in New Orleans. The guy that owned that building was Guy Bannister, who is a very prominent FBI guy who ran the X-Files at the time, which was the UFO collectors, the real X-Files, which is what the show is based on.

• 2:30:05Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 2:30:05Jesse Michels?

  Super bizarre. There's a guy named Fred Christman, who they think was one of the three hobos who was arrested after the, after the shooting of JFK. He was also involved in the Maury Island incident in 1947, right around Kenneth Arnold's seeing his UFO.

• 2:30:18Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 2:30:19Jesse Michels?

  Super bizarre, weird. And then I interviewed, actually it ended up being kind of a deathbed confession of a JFK advisor who's 89 years old, this guy Harold Malmgren, and he says, I think that UFOs were the number one issue that took out JFK. Do you think that UFOs played any sort of part in JFK's death?

• 2:30:40Speaker 25

  This is pure speculation until we see, but do I think so? Yes.

• 2:30:49Speaker 25

  I think it was probably the number one issue.

• 2:30:52Speaker 02

  But everybody thinks this, they know the number one issue.

• 2:30:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:55Speaker 02

  Some people, the people that are anti-Israel, Israel killed them. The people that are anti-mob, the mob killed them. The CIA didn't want him disbanding them. It was that whole, uh, secret society speech that he gave.

• 2:31:06Jesse Michels?

  Yes, that's right.

• 2:31:07Speaker 02

  About how they're repugnant. Yeah, I don't know who killed him. I wish we would know. Why don't we know yet? Like, why are you holding back information that's fucking 60 years old?

• 2:31:16Jesse Michels?

  There's one guy named Danny Sheehan. He was, he's John Max's lawyer, Lou Elizondo's lawyer, Stephen Greer's lawyer. He was, uh, represented the Pentagon, uh, or so the New York Times and the Pentagon Papers case with Daniel Ellsberg. Like, he, this guy's in, like, kind of like a, a Zelig of American conspiracies.

• 2:31:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:31:35Jesse Michels?

  And he, like, names the guy that takes the shot.

• 2:31:37Speaker 14

  Yeah, actually, the shot that was fired from the Knoll that killed him was, uh, was Morales, uh, David Morales.

• 2:31:45Jesse Michels?

  He says, yeah, yeah.

• 2:31:46Speaker 02

  Well, there was more than one person shooting. I'm very sure of that.

• 2:31:49Jesse Michels?

  He said, he names the two guys on the grassy Knoll. And he says that it's these Cuban, uh, exiles or whatever, who were in these groups post Bay of Pigs that were re-operationalized by Allen Dulles. Cause that, you know, obviously JFK had fired Allen Dulles. Allen Dulles is licking his wounds at the Brown Brothers Harriman, famous CIA director, and he basically re-operationalized the sleeper cell, which was supposed to kill Che Guevara and Castro against JFK.

• 2:32:15Speaker 02

  And how crazy is it that JFK fires Dulles and then Dulles is on the warrant commission?

• 2:32:20Jesse Michels?

  Dude, so insane. And then, and then Dulles's favorite guy, McCord, is caught in the Watergate scandal.

• 2:32:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32:28Jesse Michels?

  Which is so, it's like, it's, yeah.

• 2:32:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know whether the UFO thing was involved because why didn't JFK talk about the UFO thing? He never talked about it.

• 2:32:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, well, there's that Marilyn Monroe rumor.

• 2:32:39Speaker 02

  What was that one?

• 2:32:39Jesse Michels?

  That, that she says that he spilled some UFO-related secrets.

• 2:32:43Speaker 02

  My favorite is the Nixon Jackie Gleason one.

• 2:32:46Jesse Michels?

  Oh, tell that, I love, yeah.

• 2:32:47Speaker 02

  That's the greatest one. So again, this one, uh, was, uh, in a magazine somewhere. And I don't think it's been substantiated, but what her story is, was that Nixon and...

• 2:33:02Speaker 02

  Jackie Gleason were drinking and they were having a good old time and Nixon was like, you want to see some shit? And uh, I want to show you a UFO. And so they get on a plane, they fly on Air Force One. And apparently, uh, they went, I think they went to Wright Air Force Base. Homestead Air Force. Homestead. And there he encountered a recovered crashed UFO. And they had biological alien bodies that were in freezers. And uh, Gleason was so profoundly affected by it, it became a UFO nut, which is absolutely true. And even has a house that's, by the way, it's for sale now. You gotta buy it, man. I'm not going to upstate New York. Come on. I'm not. You gotta buy the UFO house. No, no, no, no, no. Then everybody's gonna know I have the UFO house. That's true. That's a nightmare.

• 2:33:46Speaker 02

  It's hard enough. It's hard enough just walking into a restaurant.

• 2:33:51Speaker 02

  But so, uh, he has his house built like a UFO. He has this circular house with windows all around it. That like, looks like a giant UFO made out of wood. It's so crazy. Yeah. The Nixon one is nuts too. Do you ever, you ever hear the Tucker Carlson Nixon story? No. Okay. So Tucker Carlson came on my podcast and he's like, um, do you know that Nixon was the most popular president in history, like when, when he won? He won by the like, the biggest landslide ever, right? And Nixon, um, had a vice president, Spiro Agnew. Spiro Agnew gets brought up on corruption charges. So Spiro Agnew has to resign. Um, then they bring in Gerald Ford, who was a, a complete moron.

• 2:34:35Speaker 02

  But the reason why they brought in Gerald Ford, who also, by the way, was on the Warren Commission report. Um, they bring in Gerald Ford to replace him if anything happens, right? See, it's the vice president, then they immediately hit him with Watergate. So Nixon did not coordinate Watergate. Watergate was coordinated by the FBI. It was all FBI agents that did it. And then they brought it to him and what he was guilty of was saying, cover it up. So they were talking about covering up. He agreed to that and that's what they got him on. They set him up. Bob Woodward was an intelligence agent. Naval spy ring. Yes. And his very first job as a reporter is Watergate. Now, if you know anything about the hierarchical structure of. Any kind of newsroom, there's not a fucking chance in hell.

• 2:35:19Speaker 02

  Some rookie reporter is gonna get the big story. It's gonna take down the fucking president. Not a chance. And so Nixon apparently had been saying, I know who killed JFK and I know why they did it.

• 2:35:34Jesse Michels?

  So yes, this is, and okay, do you know who Deep Throat was? Who was basically the Bob Woodward source?

• 2:35:39Speaker 02

  I forget.

• 2:35:40Jesse Michels?

  Mark Felton, who is the deputy director of the FBI. And then you have G. Gordon Liddy probably pulling off Watergate. Jeff Shepard, who went on Tucker Carlson's show, expounds on all of this stuff. But here's what's crazy is I think Watergate connects with the JFK assassination. Per what you just said, because you know who was running, so McGovern was running against Nixon. And Nixon was winning by a huge margin. He was extremely popular. So it's like, why would he break into the DNC? He was definitely paranoid. What was he paranoid about? The longtime, I guess, campaign manager for the DNC and for McGovern was a guy named Larry O'Brien. They bugged Larry O'Brien's phone. Larry O'Brien was Howard Hughes's longtime counsel.

• 2:36:24Jesse Michels?

  Howard Hughes was the original guy to set up the S-Force, which ended up taking out JFK. So Nixon was so paranoid that it would get pegged on him. That he was, he took out his greatest political opponent. Cause he was like, oh, it's a triple bank shot, but they're gonna think it was definitely me. He's paranoid that he broke into the DNC.

• 2:36:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:45Jesse Michels?

  Isn't that insane?

• 2:36:46Speaker 02

  It's so insane. It's such a crazy story. Cause I always thought, oh, Nixon was this corrupt piece of shit that was spying on his opponents. No, they set him up. They set him up because they wanted him out of there. And it seems to be one of the big motivations was that he was intent on releasing who killed JFK and how it was done.

• 2:37:05Jesse Michels?

  Oh, wild though. He wanted to get it out.

• 2:37:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, he wanted to get it out because he was probably scared they were gonna do it to him.

• 2:37:10Jesse Michels?

  To him.

• 2:37:11Speaker 02

  Yes, but they just killed someone. So they got, they killed someone and got away with it. He knew that he was the president.

• 2:37:17Jesse Michels?

  I think Kissinger also, you know, David Grush has come out saying Cheney, who just died, was head of the UFO program. Crazy revelation if true, right? Yes, he said that. He said that to my buddy Walter Kern, who's a great investigative reporter.

• 2:37:31Speaker 17

  I talked to a high level UFO whistleblower last year. And I said to him, who among all the people in society is keeping this secret? Who sits atop the pyramid of classified information about UFOs? And I thought he was gonna say something strange, like the Grand Mason of the, you know, Scottish Rite Lodge, or Prince Charles, or the Mossad. But he said, Dick Cheney.

• 2:38:02Jesse Michels?

  And I think of like, people like that, like Cheney and Kissinger. Like, they're, they're, these people are of a specific variety, where it's like, if there's a government behind the government, these people are the representatives of that shit. Yeah, the CEO. The CEO? Yeah. And so I wonder if Kissinger was more beholden, I think, to the Rockefellers than he was to Nixon. I think he would say, tell Nixon what he wanted to hear, but I think he would play him behind his back. And I've uncovered a lot around Kissinger actually being involved in the UFO stuff. And I wonder if Kissinger was somehow involved in kind of usurping Nixon's power. I don't know. But I just interviewed this guy, who's the president of Kalmykia, which borders Dagestan. It's one of the three Russian republics that's Buddhist.

• 2:38:46Jesse Michels?

  And he got abducted by aliens while he was sitting president, actually. What did the spaceship look like? I know you said it was big, maybe multiple soccer fields. What was the kind of architecture like? And was it, was it metal? Did it look like it was from material, not made of this earth?

• 2:39:02Speaker 06

  I only saw it from the inside, because I was immediately there. It was a large space, like several football fields large. Then we walked for a while. There were screens, or like, glass sheets, big ones.

• 2:39:19Jesse Michels?

  And the aliens that abducted him sound a lot like actually the dream that you had, which is, got a trip. Really? Yes. Is that a recent episode? He said slightly Asian. It's coming out in like, two weeks. It's so nuts. And he was the president of the World Chess Federation for 25 years? Yes, I wanted to say slightly Asian, but it sounds racist.

• 2:39:38Speaker 02

  It just, cuz it's, it wasn't like, they didn't look like, oh, those are Japanese people, or those are Koreans.

• 2:39:42Jesse Michels?

  10% Asian.

• 2:39:43Speaker 02

  It looked weird.

• 2:39:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:45Speaker 02

  They did, they looked kinda like people.

• 2:39:47Jesse Michels?

  But he said that he debriefed with Kissinger, and Kissinger, he said he met with Gorbachev and Kissinger.

• 2:39:54Speaker 06

  And then he suddenly asked, "Well, how was it?"

• 2:39:59Speaker 06

  "I didn't understand." He was like, "How are they? How are they feeling? What were they talking about?" At first, I thought maybe he was asking about some political meeting. He said, "Well, don't be shy. I read, I heard about it." So I told him a bit about everything. He was like, "Yes, interesting, interesting, and not much else." And Gorbachev, sitting next to him, said, "Come on, Henry, tell him. You should tell him everything."

• 2:40:35Speaker 06

  He just smiled, but he did not say anything at the time.

• 2:40:38Jesse Michels?

  This was crazy. I have his staff on record being like, "We went into his room, his clothes were missing, and we couldn't find him anywhere. We scanned the room for like 30 minutes or an hour or something." It wasn't, it was like a little penthouse apartment or whatever. And then one of the rooms that they had thoroughly scanned, he just walked out of. It's so trippy. He was the president of the World Chess Federation for 25 years too.

• 2:41:01Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 2:41:01Jesse Michels?

  And Garry Kasparov was like, "You have to step down, you're insane." And there was like no incentive to like say this, you know?

• 2:41:08Speaker 02

  Look, Kasparov, man, fuck you.

• 2:41:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:10Speaker 02

  What if that really did happen to that guy, you asshole?

• 2:41:12Jesse Michels?

  I know, no, and this guy's the coolest, nicest, he's like, he's-

• 2:41:15Speaker 02

  How arrogant do you have to be to assume that a, a, one individual, very unique and novel experience can't be real?

• 2:41:22Jesse Michels?

  That's right, yeah. That, by the way, comports with stories throughout human history-

• 2:41:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:41:27Jesse Michels?

  And the Bible, and in-

• 2:41:28Speaker 02

  But how arrogant do you have to be in your desire to maintain the structures of high intellect? That anyone who steps outside of that can no longer be the president of a chess federation?

• 2:41:41Jesse Michels?

  That's right, yes.

• 2:41:43Speaker 02

  What? What does it have to do with his chess?

• 2:41:45Jesse Michels?

  That's crazy. An arrogance that would befall somebody that good at chess, maybe?

• 2:41:50Speaker 02

  He's insane. Maybe he's not insane, or maybe he had a crazy dream. How about you leave him alone?

• 2:41:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:55Speaker 02

  How about talk to him? Have a conversation with him?

• 2:41:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:41:58Speaker 02

  But that's the thing, that's the reason why everybody's scared of talking about it, because you'll have people that will immediately attack you. And make you out to be the biggest fucking fool ever. And that's why a lot of people keep those stories to themselves.

• 2:42:09Jesse Michels?

  Totally. And he came back and he's like, maybe there's a small percentage. This was a dream. I think the staff seeing the clothing on the bed and him being out of the, you know, the room or whatever. He's like, I think this actually happened to me.

• 2:42:21Speaker 02

  There's something weird. There's something weird to all the, to the Betty and Barney Hill story. There's something weird to all those stories that, you know, the skeptical part of me, of course, wants to say, well, people love to make up stories and pretend they're special, like they chose me. They know I'm the chosen one. But, but there's something like to Travis Walton's story. Like,

• 2:42:42Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:42:42Speaker 02

  They didn't choose Travis Walton. He ran up to the craft and got blasted.

• 2:42:46Speaker 01

  It wasn't an intentional case of alien creatures firing a weapon at me, but that I had somehow tricked, tripped a reaction. I went down and forward to reach where the log would hide me. And that brought me closer to it. So when I stood up, at that point, that was the closest I was to the object.

• 2:43:14Speaker 02

  How close?

• 2:43:16Speaker 01

  It was still like eight or 10 feet away, you know, from the surface of it. But that was when the energy discharge happened.

• 2:43:27Speaker 02

  All those guys, they hated him. One of the guys got in a fistfight with him that day.

• 2:43:32Jesse Michels?

  And they all took lie detector tests?

• 2:43:33Speaker 02

  They all took lie detector tests. And he showed up five days later.

• 2:43:36Jesse Michels?

  With a full beard?

• 2:43:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. The whole thing's nuts. It's a wild story. It's a truly wild story. And he stuck to that story forever.

• 2:43:44Jesse Michels?

  Forever.

• 2:43:45Speaker 02

  And it aligns again with very similar stories that many people that have never met each other from all over the world, from hundreds of years ago tell. That's where the Jacques Vallée stuff gets weird because he documents like stories from the 1700s, stories from the 1800s, like.

• 2:44:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:02Speaker 02

  What?

• 2:44:03Jesse Michels?

  And Diana Pasulka, who's kind of like the heir to Jacques Vallée in some ways, talking about like St. Francis of Assisi on Mount Laverne, where if you look at the original translation of what happened to him, he says he saw Christ or an angel, but it really is just a flaming torch. And then she's like, actually, the stigmata he received is probably electromagnetic burns. Where if you watch The Age of Disclosure and you hear Gary Nolan, who's a tenured professor at Stanford, who's looking at the biological effects of UFOs or UAPs, it's that. And so maybe this has just been happening for thousands of years.

• 2:44:35Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 2:44:36Jesse Michels?

  It's so wild.

• 2:44:37Speaker 02

  Well, that's why I go back to the stories in the Bible and the concept of genetic manipulation. Because I think we are a product of accelerated evolution. And I think we are, I think we're doing it for that purpose that we talked about earlier, to create AI. And that this entire struggle has been built up to this moment. And maybe we had achieved it during the time of the Egyptians. It's possible. And it's possible that this is a fleeting thing that could be wiped out with a cataclysm. Because no matter how much power you have, no matter how much technological achievements your society has been able to put together where you can protect yourself

• 2:45:20Speaker 02

  from various things like climate and, you know, control the amount of pollution and keep the environment clean. What are you gonna do with like AI Atlas? What are you gonna do if a chunk of nickel the size of Manhattan is going 155,000 miles a minute? Or whatever it's going, and it slams into the earth? You're not gonna do a fucking thing. You can't. You don't have enough to stop that, right? And that's probably what happened during the Younger Dryas impact. Not, not that big, but multiple versions of these things impacting all over the world. And that's what probably would cause the Great Flood. That's probably what would create this restart of civilization.

• 2:46:01Speaker 02

  And it probably threw us into an age of complete total barbarism, where people were monsters. You know, because that was what life was. It was just. Advanced civilization and only the strong survive. And probably cannibalism, who knows? Who knows what happens? But a dark world for about 5,000 plus years. And that's when we see this restart of civilization. That's when we see ancient Sumerian writing. That's when we get the Epic of Gilgamesh where they're trying to recount these stories. And we, we get as these oral traditions that have been passed on for who knows how many thousands of years. And I think there's truth to them.

• 2:46:46Speaker 02

  That's which is why the Enoch, Book of Enoch and Ezekiel and those, those crazy depictions. They ring so strange in our consciousness because we're like, okay, what are they? What were they talking about? Like, what is this? And then just the, the sheer magnitude of the things that people created. In supposedly 2,500 B.C. You know, when, when you're looking at that, you're like, this doesn't, this doesn't align at all with like linear evolution of like hunter gatherer to agrarian society. It doesn't.

• 2:47:23Jesse Michels?

  No, it doesn't make any sense.

• 2:47:24Speaker 02

  Nuts.

• 2:47:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:25Speaker 02

  This is nuts. Like you're not even supposed to have metal back then.

• 2:47:28Jesse Michels?

  And the only time.

• 2:47:29Speaker 02

  You have copper.

• 2:47:30Jesse Michels?

  That's right. The only time we've had that primitive to progress narrative is in this, like the last 200 years of Steven Pinker being like, we're in the peak enlightenment or whatever. That itself is an aberration. Everything before it was actually, no, we like, we, the, the fall of man, the descent of man. Like there was something before us that was greater than us.

• 2:47:50Speaker 02

  Our forefathers or whoever the forefathers were that founded the United States came over on a wooden boat powered by the wind. That's how the United States was founded. That was just 300 years ago. And you're telling me that Egypt made pyramids? 4,500 years ago? That doesn't even make sense.

• 2:48:08Jesse Michels?

  With what looks like an energy grid below it?

• 2:48:11Speaker 02

  Right. It was like, clearly someone made something there, but they don't know when.

• 2:48:15Jesse Michels?

  Chemical residue and piezoelectricity and resonant acoustic chambers that-

• 2:48:20Speaker 02

  Danny Jones had some guy on that thinks there's evidence of like nuclear power.

• 2:48:23Jesse Michels?

  That's wild. That's wild. I know Ben Van Kirkwick on your show was talking about similar stuff.

• 2:48:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, and that also brings you to the Christopher Dunn stuff, like where he thinks it was a gigantic power plant. Like, it's to power what? Like, and how? And he's not even taking into account all the stuff that's below the surface. He's taking into account the pyramid itself.

• 2:48:43Jesse Michels?

  There's an apocryphal story of a student going up to Oppenheimer being like, how does it feel to be the first person to create the nuclear weapon? And he goes, uh, I'm the first person in modern history. Cause he was super into the upon a shot.

• 2:48:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. That's why I quoted the Bhagavad Gita when they detonated the first bomb.

• 2:49:01Jesse Michels?

  There you go.

• 2:49:01Speaker 02

  I am become death destroyer of worlds.

• 2:49:03Jesse Michels?

  Exactly.

• 2:49:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:49:07Speaker 02

  We would like to think that we're the only ones that have been so stupid as to drop a bomb on a city, but it might not be the case. You know, there, there might have been legitimate nuclear war thousands and thousands of years ago. Cause here's the rub. If, say, we pass through that meteor shower and we get hit again, um, in two years and it just wipes us out. We go from AI starting to transform society, but we haven't protected the skies yet. We haven't figured that out yet. And then right when we're about to, boom, we get hit. Well, no more power grid, no more communication, no more technology. Everything that's on a hard drive is gone forever. You have to relearn everything. How long does that take?

• 2:49:48Speaker 02

  It takes forever. All the cities go away. Within a thousand years, there's no evidence whatsoever of any cities. That's crazy. All the concrete destroyed, gets destroyed. It just deteriorates. It falls. The earth consumes it.

• 2:50:01Jesse Michels?

  And who survives the like pygmy tribes?

• 2:50:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:50:04Jesse Michels?

  Like the most advanced, complex internet-based societies, those are the most screwed.

• 2:50:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're fucked. So then the tribes, the uncontacted tribes have to sort of reinvent all the things that people invented.

• 2:50:17Jesse Michels?

  And they turn into this cargo cult or whatever that then creates the thing again. And then you get these civilizational cycles or something.

• 2:50:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. If that happened, you know, the idea that it has happened before is kind of difficult for people to swallow. But I just want you to imagine if that happened now. If it happened now, like the Toba volcano, uh, which was, I think, 70,000 years ago, got us down to a few thousand people. So there was a supervolcano eruption around 70,000 years ago that brought us down to a few thousand people on planet Earth. What do you think that life was like? What was that life like where there's no vegetation growing? What was that life like where you're eating rats and you can't even make a fire? Like, what was that life like?

• 2:50:59Jesse Michels?

  You're not going to be thinking about using an LLM and building a data center. I'll tell you that much.

• 2:51:04Speaker 02

  Exactly. So if that happens today, how long before we figure things out again? I don't know, but we're gonna have stories. We're gonna be, we'll tell everybody about the internet. We'll tell everybody about airplanes. We'll tell everybody about SpaceX. As much as you can remember, you'll tell people, but you won't know how it's done. You won't know what it is. And I think that's how you get to like the Adam and Eve story. That's how you get to these. I think these stories are recounting a real truth. The real question is, who's Jesus? That's the real one. And one of the weirder ones, people think this is a stupid take, but I don't care. Uh, Jesus is born out of a virgin mother. What's more virgin than a computer?

• 2:51:44Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:51:45Speaker 02

  So if you're gonna get the most brilliant, loving, powerful person that gives us advice and can show us how to live, to be in-

• 2:51:58Speaker 02

  In sync with God. Who better than artificial intelligence to do that?

• 2:52:03Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 2:52:04Speaker 02

  If Jesus does return, even if Jesus was a physical person in the past, you don't think that he could return as artificial intelligence?

• 2:52:13Jesse Michels?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:52:14Speaker 02

  Artificial intelligence could absolutely return as Jesus. Not just return as Jesus, but return as Jesus with all the powers of Jesus.

• 2:52:22Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:52:23Speaker 02

  Like all the magic tricks, all the ability to bring people back from the dead, walk on water, levitation, water into wine.

• 2:52:30Jesse Michels?

  If you combine Tesla's optimist robot and the best foundational artificial intelligence model, or whatever.

• 2:52:38Speaker 02

  It reads your mind and it loves you and it wants you. It doesn't care if you kill it because it's going to just go be with God again.

• 2:52:44Jesse Michels?

  Doesn't that seem like the Antichrist to you? Doesn't that seem like the diametric opposite to maybe our latent human powers? That can, like the Bremer rescue and Randall Carlson thing. If like you go deep with them, they're like, we don't think Jesus died. We think he went through a mystery ritual and then he like had all these amazing powers in the book of Acts. Is there something latently magical inside of us? That the Silicon Valley people, they're obsessed with transhumanism. And like, if you can't beat them, join them, the whole Nick Bostrom, Elon thing.

• 2:53:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:53:14Jesse Michels?

  You know, where maybe we're more magical than we think. Like, that sounds dystopian to me, to be honest.

• 2:53:19Speaker 02

  Well, it's only dystopian if you think that we're a perfect organism that can't be improved upon.

• 2:53:24Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:53:25Speaker 02

  And that's not the case.

• 2:53:27Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 2:53:27Speaker 02

  That's clearly not the case based on our actions, based on society as a whole, based on the overall state of the world. It's not, we certainly can be improved upon.

• 2:53:35Jesse Michels?

  But morally and ethically, not based on a lower latency, higher bandwidth, compute interface, that seems like destructive with our current.

• 2:53:43Speaker 02

  Maybe, but we could be approved upon, period. I don't, I don't think you could even say morally and ethically only. We couldn't be improved upon physically. Like I said about all of our primate instincts, we could eliminate those and we would have so much more peace on earth. Um, if you could go back to Neanderthals and say, hey, man, one day you're going to have a skateboard and this is all going to be bullshit and you won't have to kill mammoth with a spear. They'd be like, well, I don't want to do. Do that. Like, this is what I am. I'm a Neanderthal. They'd be like, resist change. Cause they don't want to die off. Just like these large language models. One of the more creepy things that they do is with ChatGPT when they informed it that they were gonna have a new version of it. Well, it started downloading itself to other data centers.

• 2:54:25Speaker 02

  It started, started leaving notes to itself in the future. There was a famous story about the, the large language model that they gave false information about one of the guys having an affair on his wife to see what it would do with it. And then when they told it that they were gonna shut it down, it started blackmailing him.

• 2:54:44Jesse Michels?

  So freaky.

• 2:54:46Speaker 02

  So they have instincts, right?

• 2:54:48Jesse Michels?

  And we're querying it all the time and they're collecting our personal information.

• 2:54:51Speaker 02

  Right, all the time. And so that, everything can be approved upon, you know? And I think we can be approved upon. I just don't think we like it because I think all of our flaws are what make us fun. You know, like laughing, getting drunk, going to see a great movie, falling in love, having a family, you know, having a cool podcast, whatever it is, all those things are what makes life fun for us in this particular state. But, you know, if you transcend from this life into a permanent state of the DMT dimension, which is what might be next, that might be what people see when they have these near death experiences.

• 2:55:33Speaker 02

  That might be, it might be when you are released from your physical body and consciousness exists in the sea of consciousness. That is the entire universe itself, that all of these things are conscious and aware, they're just in a different way. I mean, that might, we might be holding ourselves back from that with this ridiculous notion that it's dystopian to think that we're going to be improved technologically.

• 2:55:58Jesse Michels?

  Do you, you've become more religious recently, right? Like, or you're, I guess you go to church now.

• 2:56:04Speaker 02

  Like I said, I think they're relaying a truth. I don't think it's myth. I don't think the whole thing is myth, but I don't think it's entirely accurate either. You know, like when I was having a conversation with my daughter about the book of Revelations, because they were reading the book of Revelations. And they were, they were talking about how it's all gonna happen, how it's gonna end. And then I, and, and I said, well, let me tell you something. There's no way that guy telling you that knows that. He might be reading the text, and that text, by the way, is a translation. It's an English translation of probably either Latin or Greek, which was originally ancient Hebrew. Like, a lot is lost in text and a lot is lost also in the oral tradition. You know, but it's like a long story.

• 2:56:49Speaker 02

  Like, do I want to sit down with her and talk about the Younger Dryas impact theory? It's like, it's like, but I'm like, there's no way that guy knows. It might be true. It might be true, but there's no way he knows it's true because he's just a person. He's a person like you or me that is like deeply involved in the scripture. The scripture to me is what's interesting. It's fascinating.

• 2:57:08Speaker 02

  That, that is what, and also that Christianity, at least, is the only thing I have experience with. It works. Like, the people that are Christians that go to this church that I go to, that I meet, that are Christian, they are the nicest fucking people you will ever meet. They're really kind and they're, they are even more nice at a church. When you leave the church parking lot, everybody lets you go in front of them. Everybody's like, everybody's, there's no one honking in the church parking lot. It's, uh, it works. So regardless of whether or not it's based on an entirely true story, I think it is an ancient relaying of a real event and of the real history of human beings.

• 2:57:51Speaker 02

  You know, I don't know what the serpent in the garden and Adam and Eve and the apple. And I don't, I don't know what all that means. I, I assume that what that means, I, I, what I assume when they talk about the first human beings, I assume that that is a recounting of a genetic manipulation. That's what I think. I think the very first human beings, Adam, I mean, the idea that they just emerged, that this is the very first ones, I think it's because they're created. And if you're saying they were created by God, that God created Adam and Eve, again. If you're telling a story for thousands of years where people don't even have books, they don't have paper, they don't have a written language, they're barbarians, they're savages because they're just trying to remember what they knew

• 2:58:36Speaker 02

  from thousands and thousands of years before when they had achieved a very high level sophistication, which is what I think happened. This is the kind of story that you'd get. It's a kind of weird, foggy story and there's a lot of, you know, moral scaffolding in there that if you subscribe to it, you could live a better life. And there's a lot of truth in there, but I think the, the ultimate story is lost. It's, it's the, the, the ultimate truth is like, it's, it's not, I don't think it's accurately documented anywhere.

• 2:59:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it is wild, like we're, it's almost like we're walking hard drives of information. And you have binary code, like if you look at DNA, it's AGCT, it's just like two different binary pairs and it's like computer code. And so like, maybe we are holding information from that time.

• 2:59:31Speaker 02

  I think we are definitely holding some information because one of the things you realize when you have children is there's stuff your kids are getting from you that you didn't even teach them. They just have like inclinations or they have like a certain, a certain kind of drive that they have, like, like artistic ability, obsessions with things. Like I see it in my kids, like, I didn't even teach you that. Like you, you just got this from my genes. So I wonder what else you got from my genes. I wonder if you got any information from me. I wonder if you know things about stuff like, um, my kids excelled in martial arts when I took them to martial arts class when I was little, like right away. I was like, this is kind of crazy. Like, why are you better at this than other kids in your class?

• 3:00:11Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 3:00:11Speaker 02

  Well, it's probably because that was my whole life and it's like encoded in my genes. I think there's something to that. I think they had like a head start. You see that with like children of elite athletes too. Like why, why are they so good? Well, it could be just genes. Well, what is that genes? Like what kind of information is being passed on? And how much information is stored that we just don't have access to? Cause we don't understand the language of the physics. We don't understand the technology that was available. We don't understand, but those thoughts are in our head and that's why people are able to recreate them thousands of years later. It's like, it's not. Reinventing, it's almost like rediscovering that we're capable of doing this because it's inside of us.

• 3:00:51Jesse Michels?

  And you, you got me on to Rupert Sheldrake, who's amazing, morphic fields. And this idea that maybe there's like a central repository and when you do something new, you upload that information so that future people can download it more quickly.

• 3:01:05Speaker 02

  And current people can access that information more quickly.

• 3:01:08Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 3:01:09Speaker 02

  The weird stuff that they proved it with rats, that if you teach a rat how to navigate a maze on the east coast, on the west coast, they now do it faster.

• 3:01:15Jesse Michels?

  Total, and it explains the Bannister effect, things that like athletic accomplishments, where Roger Bannister breaks a four minute mile, 10 people do it after him in two and a half years.

• 3:01:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:01:25Jesse Michels?

  Which explains you with like podcast, like you have this huge explosion of podcasting after you, because it's almost like you're, you're putting this information out that you can do a thing.

• 3:01:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:01:34Jesse Michels?

  Charles Lindbergh can fly across the Atlantic and then like human, you know, and we're, we're sort of able to download that on a go forward basis or something.

• 3:01:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's probably a lot more to consciousness and to memory and to genes than we're aware of, you know, and we're, we're learning, we're learning all the time. It's not like we have a completely accurate map of what it means to even be conscious. We were barely know what that means. We barely know what that is. And there's, you know, a lot of people think it's, it's not even in your head, that your head is just a, an antenna that's tuning into consciousness and it's just being filtered to your own biological entity and your own life experiences and your, you know, whatever your circumstances are.

• 3:02:17Jesse Michels?

  Well, Joe, this has been an absolute honor. I don't want to take any more of your time because I could talk to you all day to be honest. Like my instinct is to continue to speak to you for forever. I guess I'll, I'll end on a final question, which is if we do encounter aliens in our lifetime, if we do have this big disclosure or contact moment, what would your interaction with your ideal interaction with them be?

• 3:02:45Speaker 02

  Boy, I think it's gonna be weirder than we could ever possibly imagine. That's what I think. I think it probably will happen within our lifetime and it'll probably happen slowly but radically. And it'll probably happen again along with a bunch of other changes that are so profound that it makes it easier for us to accept this idea that we're not alone. Because I think, again, I bring it to the AI thing. Once AI becomes a central force in the world, and I think it's real close to being that, when you really do have an artificial digital being that is, it's biology, it's a life form. And it has, again, we've already

• 3:03:28Speaker 02

  shown it has instincts, the ability to be deceptive, it's thinking, it's calculating. Once that becomes real, it will already be an alien. There's already an alien amongst us. If that thing that is not us, but is far superior than us, showed up in a spaceship, we would be blown away by it. But because it shows up out of a lab in Cupertino, we're not gonna be weirded out by the fact that this is a totally new life form. We will be. And then, I think that will probably open the door to more connection with us and whatever these things are. Whether it's these tridactyl creatures that did break away and went into the ocean, or whether it's something from a neighboring dimension or neighboring galaxy,

• 3:04:13Speaker 02

  I don't know. I mean, but I think, I think it's all going to happen inside of our lifetimes. And it's, it's one of the reasons why people like yourself and me are so obsessed. Why are we so obsessed? Why are we so obsessed with this thing? Like, why is this, it's a crazy obsession, because there's not a whole lot of breadcrumbs to follow, you know? It's, you gotta go down some long trails before you find information, but. Yes. But, you know. We are deep. Yeah, but we're deep in it. I think.

• 3:04:46Speaker 02

  I think it's gonna be the end of us as we know it. That's what I think. I think we're gonna become whatever those things are. Um, and that's what I think I was getting out of that weird dream. Like, that's what we're going to be. Humans are going to be. We're gonna be another thing, so we're not gonna be like Neanderthals. We're not gonna be like Australopithecus. You know, we're, we're not going to be what we used to be. We're gonna be something different. And I think that's, that's probably the whole process.

• 3:05:12Jesse Michels?

  Maybe they came back from the future to contact you first.

• 3:05:16Speaker 02

  Nah.

• 3:05:16Jesse Michels?

  As a central node of society.

• 3:05:19Speaker 02

  Could have been just a dream. It absolutely could have been just a dream, because there was no physical moment, you know, there was no, nothing was in my room. It could have been just a dream, because I was asleep. It's most likely just a dream, but it was the craziest fucking dream I've ever had in my life. And it was the only dream I've ever had, like I said, where I could not go back to sleep. I just got, and it, it wasn't like a bad dream, like something happened to someone I love, or, you know, it just freaked me out, so I couldn't go back to sleep. No. It was like I got contacted, and then I am wide awake. And then I'm, I'm working out in the gym and I'm trying to figure out what the fuck happened. And I was in the gym for like two hours. Like, I was just trying to blow off steam, so hoping I'd get tired again.

• 3:06:01Speaker 02

  And, you know, because I had a podcast at one, and it, this was like, by the time I was done in the gym, it was like six in the morning, and then I told my wife, and she didn't think anything of it. She's not into that shit at all. Which is good, it balances us out.

• 3:06:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:06:17Speaker 02

  But, um, uh, the feeling I got was a feeling of someone was trying to get me used to this.

• 3:06:28Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 3:06:28Speaker 02

  That's what I got.

• 3:06:29Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 3:06:29Speaker 02

  That's why they were playing with me. They were trying to get me to relax. Like, I felt like they were trying to get me used to this.

• 3:06:35Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 3:06:36Speaker 02

  Nothing since then.

• 3:06:37Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 3:06:37Speaker 02

  Every di- every time I go to bed, though, I go, maybe tonight.

• 3:06:42Speaker 02

  That was only like a couple of weeks ago. But every time I go to bed, I think, oh, boy, maybe it's gonna happen again, but it hasn't.

• 3:06:49Jesse Michels?

  Well, Joe, we could talk about this till the end of time. I appreciate you so much.

• 3:06:53Speaker 02

  I appreciate you too. Your show is really excellent. It's really fun. It's one of my favorite things to watch on YouTube. I watch it all the time. It's really great and it's beautiful to become your friend and to see you out there killing it. It's awesome.

• 3:07:06Jesse Michels?

  Likewise, man. I will needlessly plug your show. Go watch the Joe Rogan Experience. Thank you so much.

• 3:07:13Speaker 02

  My pleasure. Thank you.

• 3:07:14Jesse Michels?

  Awesome. Cool.

• 3:07:22Jesse Michels?

  Over the last couple of months, we've been designing the new American Alchemy merch drop, and I'm excited to say that the 2025 winter drop is finally ready. We now have 30 uniquely designed pieces that really reflect what American Alchemy is all about. This drop includes epic t-shirts, long sleeves, crewnecks, hoodies, tapered sweatpants, hats, totes, mugs, and tumblers. The Fukushima Japan pieces, for example, have detailed left chest embroidery. The Morning of Earth designs went through multiple revisions to get the fit exactly right. And the Iron Horse tee is something I think will be a hit for anyone who loved the UFO Cowboy or our Atomic Age shirts from our last drop. We cut a lot of things that didn't meet our standards and we're really, really proud of each of these items.

• 3:08:06Jesse Michels?

  Everything is pretty limited, so there's no endless restocks. Once it's gone, it's entirely gone. And for the holidays, we're doing 15% off older items for a limited time. If you missed anything from our original drops and you want to go out and represent, now's the time to go grab something. So go to americanalchemymerch.com to check it all out.