518 | All Black Everything

The Minimalists speak with philosopher Peter Rollins about why minimalists often wear black clothes, a few examples of emotional decluttering, the concept of "dopamine dressing," some tips for reducing social media scrolling, eight things Joshua's favorite writer tried to warn us about, and more. Discussed in this episode: What is an example of emotional decluttering? (5:28) What's wrong with wearing all black? (26:03) Right Here, Right Now: The Minimalists' 15th birthday and the final Sunday Symposium–for now. (48:57) Listener Tip: A unique way to reduce scrolling. (1:08:07) Have a question for the show? Call 406-219-7839 or email a voice memo to [email protected]. Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast Recorded at Earthing Studios http://earthing.com/simple.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'll be fine without it.

• 0:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, welcome to the Minimalist Podcast, where we discuss what it means to live a meaningful life with less. My name is Joshua Fields Milburn, and joining me here at Earthing Studios in beautiful West Hollywood, California is my good friend TK Coleman.

• 0:54Speaker 02

  Hey, man, let's job our loves today.

• 0:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Maybe we could talk about that. That was quite the controversy this weekend when we were at Sunday Symposium. We have several surprises for you today. Ryan Nicodemus is going to be joining us toward, well, later on Page 1 and also on Page 2. But joining us in the studio today, I stumbled into an Irishman on the street in Ojai this weekend, and I said, can we keep him? And here he is. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the show, our returning champion, Peter Rollins.

• 1:29Speaker 03

  Thank you, guys. I was wandering the lonely streets of Ojai, homeless and in need, and you brought me in, so thank you.

• 1:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, you know, you were doing this event with our mutual friend, Rob Bell, and you were doing like a live podcast in Ojai, and I brought my wife there. She thought we were going to go see Henry Rollins, and yet Peter Rollins was there, and she said it was even better. She's so glad that she got a chance to meet Peter Rollins. And, you know, the event was interesting, and I was so compelled by it. I want to talk to you a bit about it later on our Right Here, Right Now segment. When you were in town, I said, Oh, we should meet up for coffee. Let's have lunch. I said, we're doing a podcast on Tuesday. It's a non-guest day, but it feels like Peter's part of the family, right? He's been a guest more than anyone else. The last time someone was a guest this many times,

• 2:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  we forced him to become a co-host on the show. So be careful what you ask for.

• 2:28Speaker 03

  I feel like part of the family, although my invoice is going to be pretty high. Family members don't charge as much as I'm about to charge, so just letting you know.

• 2:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You clearly don't have any kids because I can assure you, they charge you a lot more.

• 2:41Speaker 03

  Is that right?

• 2:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, they're quite expensive.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  Hey, can I propose a nickname for Peter? If you ever decide to start a second podcast, I think you should be referred to as the PR machine for philosophy.

• 2:53Speaker 03

  Oh, that's brilliant. I should buy that off you. You want 10% now of that, do you? Because that's brilliant.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  Just buy me the Starbucks special edition coffee cup and we're good.

• 3:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Good luck. You're better off just paying a percentage right now. Professor Sean and I, last week or maybe a couple of weeks ago, Patreon asked us to work out a gift guide to recommend our five favorite creators on Patreon. And we had to write like a pithy one-line summary for each of them. And I think off the top of my head, the one that Sean and I came up with was, if Schopenhauer was a showrunner for a sitcom about pyro theology, it would star Peter Rollins.

• 3:34Speaker 03

  Oh, that's beautiful. That's my tagline. I've got the name. I've got the tagline.

• 3:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We're helping him out with branding today. Now who's getting the invoice?

• 3:42Speaker 03

  Yes. I don't know if I can afford you guys. This is brilliant.

• 3:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You know, when I asked him to come on the show, he's like, what's the topic? And I'm like, well, it's minimalism, I guess. I wanted to bring you into our world. We already had an episode prepared and I thought some of these questions here, I'm really interested to see how you might answer them, what value you can bring to the table, what perspective you can bring to the table for these folks. Because we got to talk about why minimalists often wear black clothes all the time. He didn't get the memo. We didn't like send him a fax. But he's wearing a beautiful black outfit right now. And so maybe you are indeed a minimalist.

• 4:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And in fact, I can confirm that if you go to his house, he owns next to nothing. Yep. And it's like beautifully curated and I can tell you that like he cares about aesthetics in a way. So maybe we can dive into that as well. We also want to talk a bit about emotional decluttering, the concept of dopamine dressing, some tips for reducing social media scrolling and much, much more. Also on page three, you're going to love this one, Pete. We'll discuss eight things that my favorite writer, David Foster Wallace, tried to warn us about. He tried to warn us about our dystopian future, which is now our dystopian present that we're stuck in. And we're going to talk a bit about that as well. But let's start with our callers. If you have a question or a comment for our show, we would love to hear from you. You

• 5:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  can join the show. The phone number is 406-219-7839, or email a voice recording right from your phone to [email protected]. Let us know if you're a Patreon subscriber so we can prioritize your message. By the way, big thanks to our patrons. Your support keeps our podcast 100% advertisement free because sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. Yes, they do. Our first question today is from Pascal.

• 5:31Speaker 03

  Oh, wow. From back from there. One of my favorite philosophers.

• 5:36Speaker 04

  Hello, the minimalists. This is Pascal from Switzerland in Geneva. My question would be, what's the first thing that pop up in your head when you think about emotional decluttering? If you can give us an example. And I have a second question. It's more, I guess, personal. Why do you guys always dress in black? Is it because it's just easy to have everything in black? Or is it like, if we can call it that, a style for your brand? Thank you for the opportunity and I will keep following you. What you do is great. Bye bye.

• 6:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, first off, Pascal, can my wife borrow your accent? Just for a while? That would be wonderful. I want to talk to you about the why do we always wear black? We can get to that. But this first question I thought was really interesting, especially since we have Pete here.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Emotional decluttering. Now TK wrote a book called Emotional Clutter. It's free. People can download it on our website. Just go to theminimalists.com, click the resources tab at the top. We have a bunch of free resources there. There's also an audiobook version of that as well, which I recorded with him. It was like kind of a mix between audiobook and a podcast. We did these mini podcasts between every chapter. And he talks a lot about the emotional clutter that we pick up. It's often with our things. Minimalism often starts with the stuff. There's a lot of excess things in our life because there's a lot of excess going on in here. A lot of mental clutter, emotional clutter, spiritual clutter, identity clutter. And so when Pascal asks about emotional decluttering, what's the first thing that comes to your mind?

• 7:14Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, because it's a phrase that I don't know that well. I conjures up an idea in my mind. So I'll say a couple of things, but you've written a book on it. So I don't want to be talking about what I'm just making up on the spot when you've actually thought about this.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  We love what you make up on the spot.

• 7:29Speaker 03

  Well, thank you. I'll try to make it sound profound. The Irish accent helps.

• 7:34Speaker 03

  But I love what you said because the first thought that comes to mind is that the clutter in our physical lives connects with our internal life. That's the thing that we often don't realize. Mind and matter are so interconnected. You can tell a lot about a person's personality and what they're dealing with and what they're going through when you see their space. And so that interesting idea of like, sometimes I think people, they start maybe by decluttering their material world, but it's really an attempt to try to get some sort of emotional regularity in their inner life. So I like that idea, but I would love to hear your thoughts on what that term means.

• 8:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I think what's interesting TK is I remember when Jordan Peterson first came on the scene and people were like, were giving him all kinds of hell because his like first advice for people was like, "Clean your room." But there's something profound about that because our material possessions are a physical manifestation of what's going on inside us. So if I have mess around us all the time, that means I have chaos around me all the time. It's probably a result of some chaos that's going on inside me. And when we talk about clutter, what we're talking about is anything that gets in the way. So emotional decluttering would mean getting rid of those things that are sort of in the way. And so TK, I want to talk a bit about the emotions that we tend to pathologize a bit.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Here, and we divinize other emotions. Happiness, excitement, these are the things we should have. This is the way it's supposed to be. And then, oh no, grief or sadness? Get that away from me immediately.

• 9:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. Well, just because we have a philosopher in the room, I gotta just say a quick thing about the Jordan Peterson observation. A lot of people got mad at the clean your room idea because, hey, it's so basic. Moms have been telling their children that for generations. Why is everyone so excited about this guy if he's saying something new? But there are two types of profundity. One is the profundity of having said what has never been said before or in a really different way. The other is stating something simple in a way that gets people to actually do it. Yes, those same moms who've been telling their kids to clean up their room are also frustrated because they know that it's easy to say. It's hard to motivate them to do it. And Jordan Peterson was able to find a way to motivate people to actually do it by contextualizing that

• 9:56Speaker 02

  parental command with a story about where they are on their hero's journey. And that's an important lesson for all of us, regardless of what you might feel about this particular philosopher or that particular advice. It's not just about the idea, it's about the way we contextualize it. When it comes to emotional clutter, I define emotional clutter simply as the emotional dimension to physical problems. Every physical problem has an emotional dimension. So if I don't have enough money and my job doesn't pay me enough, my expenses are really high, well,

• 10:28Speaker 02

  I don't have enough money, that's a physical condition. But if I feel like a loser because I don't have enough money, or if I feel regret about the choices that I've made, that's the emotional dimension to my physical clutter problem. Or maybe my kids don't pick up their toys and I either have to tell them to pick it up and they get mad at me, or I pick it up for themselves and I pick it up for them and I get mad at them. And now I feel really guilty. I feel like I'm a terrible parent, my kids don't like me. That's emotional clutter. Or maybe it's the holiday season and everybody wants all of these really expensive gifts and I don't want to get them those gifts, but it makes me feel like I'm not a great father or I'm not a great friend. That's emotional clutter. And there are different reasons for why we might have these feelings,

• 11:13Speaker 02

  but the emotional clutter comes from the narratives that we tell about the physical dimension of the problem. And when it comes to the so-called positive emotions, which is just another way of saying pleasant emotions. It's not like you are a better person if you have these emotions. Sometimes you're excited for no fault of your own. You know, and sometimes you're sad for no fault of your own. But the pleasant emotions are like forms of music that we know how to dance to intuitively. Or even if we don't know how to dance to them, we can't get them wrong. It's like listening to the YMCA. All you gotta do is move any kind of way. And there's no mistake you can make. Even your uncle who can dance just gets on the floor and it works anyway.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  And so when we get happy and we feel excited, we don't call our buddies and be like, "Uh, I don't know what to do. Uh, should I do a fist pump? Uh, should I, you know, yell with enthusiasm?" You can't get this wrong, man. You're feeling a pleasant emotion. But when we feel jealousy, when we feel angry, when we feel sad, when we feel guilty, we call up our friends and we say, "I don't know what to do with this. The DJ is playing some polka and I don't know how to move to that. I don't know how to dance to that. I don't have any moves. Help me. You know, give me some choreography so I can get back on the dance floor and live my life." And so emotional decluttering is about helping us deal with those genres of psychological music that make us really uncomfortable, that we haven't really learned any moves for.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  And they teach us how to develop a sense of psychological choreography.

• 12:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Peter, I often say that minimalism is an eraser of distractions. And I think you can apply that to the dress. In fact, during the lightning round, we'll talk about why we always wear black all the time and why that's not necessarily a prescription for anyone listening to this. We can talk about the benefits and maybe even the downsides of doing that. But to me, there's a lack of distraction by dressing, simply. But I think with respect to the emotions and the emotional clutter, often those emotions that are unpleasant, they're not bad, but they can become a bit of a distraction. And we can go into a spiral of sadness or grief, or maybe the most pernicious one can

• 13:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  be anger because that sets ablaze relationships and we can burn our whole life down with anger. But during the live podcast with Rob Bell that you were doing last weekend, you had brought up the topic which you've discussed on this show before is actually embracing the lack. And I think maybe there's a conversation to be had with Pascal about also understanding, I'm not lacking something in this moment, or maybe I am lacking and that's okay.

• 13:51Speaker 03

  Yes, yes. And I'm thinking, you know, the term anxiety, in psychoanalysis, there's this idea that anxiety primarily comes from this sense of what does the other want from me? I, what the big other, for example, you go to a party and you don't know exactly how you should act and you've got this idea that there's a way you should be, things you should have, a way you should conduct yourself in the world. And the sense of this voice that's telling you that, you know, you should be doing something that you don't know, it's called the big other, this big other that seems to be telling you that you need to be something, do something, have something. And the trick is how do we get rid of that big other, that voice that's always, that

• 14:36Speaker 03

  creates a lot of the clutter. So as you said, it's not, it's not your actual life that's causing the problems. It's often this voice that's, that seems to be telling you that you should be going out more, you should have certain things, you should be doing certain things. And that's where this emotional kind of pain can arise. So sometimes when I feel that, I have to go like, listen, there's nobody out there telling me that I should be going out and doing something like that. That's something internal to me. But this voice can be such an anxiety-producing.

• 15:10Speaker 03

  Element of our lives that we need to somehow exorcise from us like a demonic spirit.

• 15:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, and by the way, if someone, a stranger showed up at your door and told you, Pete, I think you need to go out more, you'd be like, get away from me. What's wrong with this person? Right? And yet we have the stranger showing up in our heads every day telling us what we should and shouldn't do. But it's often based on the expectations or the prescripts of a society or culture that you're already in. A good person does this. A bad person stays inside. A good person calls their mom every day. A bad person doesn't call them. And all of a sudden, we have all of these prescriptions that we've picked up and it causes all of this angst and the anxiety that you're talking about. And I think ultimately, when we're talking about emotional

• 16:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  clutter, we're talking about this low level anxiety that tends to permeate everyone's life all the time. It's a constant white noise in the background. And then from time to time, you get the spikes that give you the, I don't know, more pronounced negative or unpleasant emotions, the fear, the sorrow, the grief and the anger, the rage. These things all come up. Once, it almost feels like we can't, we've been unable to deal with the anxiety. We've been unable to sit with it. In fact, we've refused to sit with it for so long that it then boils up into something else.

• 16:37Speaker 03

  And I feel like I should, I'd be want, if I didn't bring up the Blaise Pascal for a second as well, because I think Blaise Pascal has something interesting to say about all of this. Maybe we've talked about him before, I'm not sure in the podcast, but Pascal, one of the greatest French philosophers, wrote this beautiful series of notes called the Ponce. And in the Ponce, he has three orders that he talks about that we all exist in, the order of the body, the order of the mind, the order of the heart. These are his three orders. The first order is the order of the body. And he says that basically, We experience a sense of lack in our lives, a sense that we don't have something. And then we hope for something that will fill that. So we feel a bit miserable.

• 17:22Speaker 03

  And we then fantasize something that will stop us being miserable. And he says, how we do that is through what he calls divertissement. And this is very interesting because I think it gets to the correct way that we try to relate to things. Divertissement is, his perfect example is the hunt where people go out and hunt for, say, a fox. And Pascal basically gets us to imagine, well, imagine you're about to go out on a hunt. So I decide, well, you know what, you guys are gonna go out, spend all day chasing this fox. So I'll just kill it and bring it to you at the start of the day and go, there you go, guys. You don't have to go out, dress up, get on the horses, there's the fox.

• 18:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right.

• 18:01Speaker 03

  Now Pascal says, well, of course you're going to be a bit disappointed.

• 18:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 18:04Speaker 03

  And then, so then I go, oh, right, okay, now I understand you like to go out and hunt. So here, go out into the forest. I mean, the fox is dead, but go out and have a blast. You go, no, I also don't want that. And Pascal says, what you want is the correct distance from the fox. And sports is brilliant at this because in sports, it's not about your team winning. Because I've seen my friends who are in the sport, you were talking about a game just before we went on live. And I've seen my friends, I've gone to games with my friends, and when their team is winning too much, they start to lose interest and they only start to get excited again when their team starts to lose. So the enjoyment is in the, a certain level of distance from the thing.

• 18:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 18:46Speaker 03

  But what that covers over, Pascal, and this is the really interesting bit, that covers over a sense of maybe misery and darkness that's in our lives. So we basically distract ourselves with objects, with these kind of back and forths. And it's all to prevent ourselves from Looking at the truth, which is probably we're all, we're all carrying darkness and difficulty and objects and our pursuit of objects can hide that from ourselves. But ultimately then those pains come out in, in aggressive, bad ways. We lose our temper with our loved ones. We, we self sabotage and lose our job and don't understand why we did it. So our, the darkness that we're trying to hide from resurfaces in unhealthy ways.

• 19:31Speaker 03

  For me, minimalism can often be a way of, of removing, and maybe this is emotional decluttering, removing that chase, that wily coyote kind of chasing the roadrunner thing long enough that we can admit to our own loneliness and our own sadness and our own difficulties. And as we're able to symbolize those things, actually they become lighter and freer. So, yeah.

• 19:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, and maybe there's something about replacing the chase with pursuit. Pursuit meaning I'm not tied to a specific outcome, or maybe I'm just being, I'm playing here. Like the, the basketball game you're talking about, it's most fun when there's tension and it's the last five seconds and the game is tied and your team has the ball and, and now all of a sudden it's like, there's this tension. If there's five seconds left and your team's up by 55, you're just headed to the parking lot already because the outcome we already are familiar with. Part of what makes it fun and exciting and playful is you don't know what the outcome is going to be. Because if it's perpetual bliss or happiness without the contrast of the so-called unpleasant emotions, then there is no, you can't have darkness without the light.

• 20:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You can't have happiness without the sadness.

• 20:40Speaker 03

  Can I, can I very quickly tell you an embarrassing story that I, I was in, so in LA, you know, you end up going to someone's house for dinner and the somebody will be there who's like a famous actor or whatever, right? So I was at a party and crazily Bill Maher was there, right? And I'd heard of Bill Maher and I, we were chatting away. And so I made a joke to Bill Maher that completely fell flat. And I have to tell you the joke because it really is this, because we were talking about this and I was, I think I was doing some, a couple of stories or something like that. And at one point I was talking about this very idea and I said to him, I said, When I first came to America, you know, I wasn't into sports, so I thought I should get into a sport to kind of fit in. And I said, so I I picked basketball.

• 21:22Speaker 03

  And I said, but the problem was my team kept winning all the time. And so the enjoyment kept going down. And he, what was the team called? And I said, oh, they were called the global, the Harlem Globetrotters. And I said, they just always won. But Bill Maher then turned to me and said, you know, they're not a real basketball team.

• 21:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Bill Maher has serious, well, actually, energy. He will throw a wet, for a comedian, he doesn't seem to have a sense of humor.

• 21:50Speaker 03

  I thought that was a, yeah, I thought that was a great, I thought that was my finest moment. No, no. Only the generals, they're always beating the generals, you know, the generals are almost going to win and then they get destroyed.

• 22:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But that's actually what makes it fun is the generals are almost always going to win, right? And if the Globetrotters were always up by 70 points all game, which they could be relative to the Washington Generals, because it's all scripted anyway.

• 22:14Speaker 03

  What?

• 22:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Anyway, Pascal, I'd love to give you a clutter counselling session with TK Coleman. Maybe he can help you unpack some of that emotional clutter, physical clutter, identity clutter, everything that's going on behind. Well, behind the the emotions that you're experiencing right now, maybe everything that's going on behind the material possessions as well. For anyone else who wants a clutter counselling session, head on over to theminimalists.com and click counselling at the top. And you can book a session anywhere in the world via Zoom with TK Coleman. Pascal, I'd also love to send you a copy of Everything That Remains. It's the book that Ryan and I wrote. He's going to be joining us here in a moment. Everything That Remains, the reason I want to send it to you is you asked a question about black clothes.

• 22:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And the very first line of that memoir is our identities are shaped by the costumes we wear.

• 23:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And we're all wearing some sort of costume. Sometimes it has to do with our wardrobe. Sometimes it has to do with our career. Sometimes it has to do with our material possessions. It could be our car. That's part of our costume. I'm the type of guy who drives a pickup truck. Or I'm the type of responsible person who drives a Prius, like Savvy D. And these are all parts of our identity if we hold on to these labels too tightly. Ultimately, it becomes identity clutter. We're going to talk about that here in a moment, but it's my favorite thing that we've ever written. Everything that remains just turned 10 years old last year. We'll send you a copy of that if you want the book, book, or the ebook, or the audiobook. We'll be happy to send that to you, Pascal. Before we get back to our callers and before we get to Nicodemus, it is time for the lightning

• 23:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  round where we answer the Patreon community chat's question of the week. Now, Pete, this is where we attempt to answer questions with a short, shareable, minimal maxim. People can find this episode's maxims in the show notes over at theminimalists.com/podcast and every minimal maxim ever at minimalmaxims.com. We did something really interesting this weekend. We did our penultimate Sunday symposium this year was in Orange County just a couple of days ago, and it was a beautiful experience. We, you know, when you go to a Chinese restaurant, they give you a fortune cookie and the fortune's always like poorly written or badly translated and, or maybe there's like lottery numbers in it and they're just bad, right?

• 24:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I'm like, fortune cookies could be so, so good. Like the message in here, you have the opportunity to spend time to distill it down to something profound and meaningful, pithy, some sort of aphorism or parable. And so I said, I've never liked the fortune and fortune cookies. So I guess I have to write my own. So we wrote 500 of them and

• 24:56Speaker 02

  I always feel so awkward when you say this because I thought fortune cookies were good.

• 24:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And he's like, aren't they so bad? I'm like, oh, yeah. You've lived your life, maybe.

• 25:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  He just always throws a paper out and eats the cookies. Like, these are delicious. What are you talking about? So maybe the cookie's good, but the, it's just not profound. So Savvy D had 500 of these printed up and we did our Sunday Symposium. And we just had people crack open these cookies and read what their maxim was for that. And like, it was so weird. The people were open them and they were like, this is the one that I needed. Of the 500 you made, like, there was one about devices distracting you or you becoming useless when you're used by the device. And, and this person's like, this is exactly what I needed. I saw her in the hug line after the event. She's like, I've got to go home and, and really simplify my digital clutter. And so like, sometimes these messages just show up. And that's what we try to do with the lightning round here.

• 25:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  By the way, we'll send you seven new maxims every Monday if you subscribe to our email newsletter over at theminimists.e-mail. We'll never send you spam or junk or advertisements, but we'll start your week off with a dose of simplicity every Monday. All right. Question of the week this week. Pete, this is a good one. I feel like we wrote this one for you and you, or you knew we wrote this one. That's why you showed up like this. The, the question is, what's wrong with wearing all black? What is wrong with wearing all black? Now, I do want to hear what you have to say about that, but let's listen to what some of our listeners had to say. Whitney said, there's nothing wrong with wearing all black, but dopamine dressing is also a thing.

• 26:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Dopamine? It's the first time I heard this term, so I had to look it up. She says, bright colors are good for your brain, or at least for my brain. So when I looked this up, dopamine dressing is the practice of choosing clothing that makes you feel good, confident and happy, based on the idea that your outfits can boost your mood and trigger the release of dopamine, a quote, "feel-good hormone." It involves wearing clothes that bring joy through factors like bright colors, bold patterns, or comfortable textures. And the key is selecting items that resonate personally and make you feel empowered. Now Pete, I'm all for feeling good, but-

• 27:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Might there be some problems with chasing dopamine through constant new wardrobe purchases? And maybe there's some benefits of it, too. I don't know.

• 27:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, chasing dopamine in any way with your phone or your clothes or your items, that maybe gets us back to that Pascalian distrac- it can be a distraction, or it can be, I mean, I have to be totally honest, I distress in black because I'm very colorblind.

• 27:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Wow.

• 27:38Speaker 03

  I'm like, for a human being, I am as colorblind as you can get, which isn't too, it isn't too bad. It's not like I see just gray. Just my philosophy is that. But my, uh, I, but you know, if I buy too many colorful clothes, I know I'm gonna clash really badly. So, black or dark just makes that not a problem.

• 27:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, maybe his clothes are memetic of his philosophy.

• 28:01Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 28:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I would actually argue the same thing with me, but not from a darkness perspective, but just from a simplicity perspective. Like, it's just so much simpler for me. But TK, maybe there's a benefit to the wearing bright clothes, and it does give you that burst of dopamine.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the difference between a practice being, being healthy versus unhealthy is all about, do I see this as a collaboration between me and the stimulant? Or am I looking at the stimulant as the cause and my happiness as the effect? So, there are lots of things that can affect our moods for the better. The kind of music that we play, the kind of lighting that's in the room, the amount of movement that my body needs. And it's good to be aware of these things so that we can collaborate with the elements of nature in such a way so as to optimize our lives. But then, if we start to use the absence of those things as excuses, it's a rainy day, I wasn't able to get sun, so I'm not gonna do my work and I'm gonna be a jerk

• 28:59Speaker 02

  to everyone. Or, I don't have control in this moment over the music that's being played, and I would rather be listening to this, but so and so's listening to that, so now I'm gonna be cranky about it. Well, in a sense like that, I've outsourced my power to the thing, and I'm no longer, no longer collaborating with it, but it's a codependent relationship where I'm becoming, you know, sort of like, uh, you know, reliant on it in order to be the healthiest version of me. And what we hear, what we see here with the dopamine, you know, selection of the clothes and clothing, it doesn't sound like it's, uh, it's chasing. It sounds like, uh, this person has a healthy use of it going on.

• 29:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah. And also, like, I enjoy wearing these types of clothes.

• 29:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's the right answer, right? As long as it's not hurting anyone else, right? Or as long as it's not totally inappropriate for the situation in which you're in and it's gonna make you feel awkward. You know, if you show up naked to a wedding, it's gonna be an issue, right? You're wearing a thong like, oh, but it's my choice. No, I mean, it is, but also like, you're going to cause yourself quite a bit of problems. But you show up, you've got the, the purple polka dotted dress and that's the thing, you're like, oh, yeah.

• 30:06Speaker 03

  And, and wearing all black can be its own thing. Like, if you, if you're making a movie about a serial killer, nine times out of 10, that person's wardrobe is gonna be all black and all the same. Basically, it's gonna be a Joshua wardrobe.

• 30:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, not saying anything. But I, I had a friend who, who had another friend who was in a, it was a show called Mindhunter, is it a show called Mind? And there was a serial killer, a guy who was a serial killer in that, and supposedly he was very good. I met him, he came to my apartment one time, lovely guy, and the first thing he said, and I was very proud of this, he says, "This is a serial killer's house." And I was like, "You just won an award being a serial killer? And you've seen my, my apartment and all the books that are just at the right height?" And all of that is like, "This is a serial killer." So, you know, sometimes that can be its own problem.

• 30:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I think what you're saying is like, maybe serial killers have, are disproportionately obsessive compulsive, or minimalists too, yeah. But like, there is a, an OCD component, I'm sure, right? And I mean, it's a, a mental disorder, right?

• 31:12Speaker 02

  I mean, even though it's convenient for me, I've sometimes, you know, consciously just put on a shirt with some color on it when going to church, because so many times I'll walk into a church, Catholic, people will be like, "Father." I'm like, "Ah, man." Because priests always wear black. Or some people be like, "What are you trying to look like a priest?" I'm like, "Priests don't even wanna look like priests. Why would you accuse me of that?" But, but like you said, even though this is easiest for me, there are some contexts where it becomes even more noticeable or stands out in an unwanted way.

• 31:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's like the Dave Chappelle joke, but you, you go in wearing the full priest outfit, you got the white collar on, and you're like, "How dare you think I'm a priest just because I dress this way?" Melissa said, I wear black most of the time. It's the color that is dressy or casual or whatever you want it to be. It also makes me feel somewhat invisible, which I really like. I think that's such a good point. Pete, sometimes like it makes sense. It's nice to not stand out all the time.

• 32:06Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Well, I feel like that again, that can be a good or a bad thing sometimes. Something that you mentioned TK actually on this is that weirdly you can, you can be a weirdo for non pathological reasons and you can be really normal looking for pathological reasons. So for example, Lacan used the example of imagine you're really jealous that your partner's being unfaithful. You're, you're pathologically jealous and then you find out that your partner has been unfaithful. You're still pathologically jealous. You just happen to be right. So in a weird way, like you can then not see that you've got pathological jealousy because empirically, something happened that allows you to go, oh, yeah. In the same way, you could be a hypochondriac

• 32:50Speaker 03

  who thinks you've got cancer and then you find you have got cancer. You're still a hypochondriac. You just are a hypochondriac who happens to have the thing that you think. And so it's really interesting to always ask, you know, yeah, what is this saying about me? How I wear my clothes? What, what's like, is this, am I doing in a healthy or unhealthy way? It's almost like you can't tell from what you're doing. It's, it's, it's your relationship with it. That's the interesting thing. That's where the, yeah, the meat is.

• 33:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Last year I was in Franklin, Tennessee, and there was the hotel we were staying at, we were there for some Dave Ramsey thing and standing at this hotel downtown and I went walking to a coffee shop, but then there was like this giant like fair thing going on downtown, swap meet, farmer's market, all of the things all together. There's some big thing going on downtown Franklin. And I'm walking, a few people say hi to me. Hey minimalist guy. And this one guy walks up to me and he goes, hey, I, I saw you and I just had to say hi. Okay, great. Hi. And he goes, I don't know what it is about you, man, but you're just so freaking simple.

• 33:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And in that moment, I realized like, he, someone else, that'd be a total insult.

• 33:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But I stood out because of the simplicity. In that moment, I realized he has no idea who I am. He doesn't know the minimalist or any of this other stuff. He, I stood out because I was just dressed so simply and everyone else was. And so like, in a weird way, I was accidentally standing out by trying not to stand out.

• 34:17Speaker 03

  Wow, yes.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  Would you have felt different if he says, "I don't know what it is about you, man, but you're so damn basic."

• 34:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I mean, he can only, he can only affect my feelings if I give him the keys to my heart, TK. Jess says, "The only thing wrong with wearing all black is when the shades of black don't match."

• 34:36Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 34:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK, I say every shade of black is beautiful.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  Every shade, every shade of black is beautiful.

• 34:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Anne says, "What looks, what looks good for one person may not look good for another. It depends on what you're going for. The world would be a boring place if we all just wore black." Which brings me to my pithy answer for today. If you dress in all black, people can still find the color in your personality. I, I remember when we first launched the minimalists.com 15 years ago today, when this episode comes out.

• 35:13Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 35:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  People started asking, it was so simple. Why are you, why is the website so simple? There's like, there's no sidebar, there are no banner ads, there's no product placement. And it was only 500 pixels wide and tenured, so there was all this white space on the side. And all the photos were in black and white, and the logo was black, and the website was white. So the whole thing was monochrome. And they said, "Where's the color?" And I would always say the same thing every time. The color's in the words. And I think the same can be true. You can dress in all black and still have your own personality. Now, what that is, it can be.

• 35:46Speaker 03

  Serial killer?

• 35:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, the serial killer personality. It can be flamboyantly you, very happy. It could be anything. The clothes don't have to dictate what your personality is. If anything, they can amplify what your personality is. But for me, wearing all black is sort of like just this this clean slate that allows me to have to be me without trying to be someone else. Brittany, one last one says, actually, before we do that, TK, let's talk about this because the the end of of Anne, what she said, like, it'd be so boring if we all just wore black. And I would say, what's wrong with boredom? Why do we pathologize boredom so much?

• 36:28Speaker 02

  I would say it's a natural tendency to try to alleviate or avoid any form of pain that you don't see as leading to something greater. Even when we do see it as leading to something greater, sometimes it feels so intolerable, we try to alleviate it. But boredom is one of those things, especially in the modern world, where we have such an easy ability to escape it and relieve it. It's one of those things that we kind of look at as sort of like a nagging hangover from history. And we don't really understand the role that boredom plays at incentivizing us to get in touch with ourselves, to think deeply, to learn new things. And the role that novelty plays in the process of of developing ourselves and exploring the world. What do you have to say about this?

• 37:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Peter obviously loves boredom. He comes to this podcast so much.

• 37:12Speaker 03

  That's why I'm here.

• 37:14Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, I mean, there's a there's a thinker called Bi young Chul Han. He wrote a beautiful book called Burnout Society, and so there's some nods of acknowledgement in the.

• 37:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Professor Sean's a big fan. I think TK is too.

• 37:27Speaker 03

  Oh, very good.

• 37:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I don't like Germans.

• 37:29Speaker 03

  Ah, exactly.

• 37:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Just kidding. They're my favorite. Most of our listeners are German. I think 97% of our listeners are German. I love you all very much.

• 37:37Speaker 03

  Is he German or is he Korean?

• 37:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  German, Korean.

• 37:40Speaker 03

  German, Korean. Oh, right. Okay, there you go. But he, you know, like, what's so beautiful about some of the stuff he writes about is how we're in this world where it's about being an entrepreneur of the self, life hack, be the best you can be, just do it. Like everywhere, there is this message of productivity, of seizing the day, of being the best you can be, and life hacking, all of this. And it'll be young, shall hand talks about how the symptoms that come from this being saturated by this message.

• 38:12Speaker 03

  Of like maximizing every minute of the day for productivity actually generates burnout, fatigue, you know, exhaustion, even kind of ADHD symptoms and things can be exacerbated by this kind of experience. And of course, he writes beautifully about the virtue of boredom, virtue of like of of being nonproductive, having a nonproductive dimension to your life and to your day to try to almost to kind of try to get alleviate some of these very modern symptoms. I mean, they're very modern, like ADHD and fatigue and burnout. These are the symptoms of the present day that seem to be connected with this every time you look on Instagram. It's it's it sounds wonderful because it's saying you can do everything, you can be everything,

• 38:56Speaker 03

  you can be productive, be an entrepreneur of the self. And it can kind of sound exciting and great. But actually, it's boredom and nonproductivity are real virtues that increasingly we have to find a way to carve out. You know, in the past, it was natural because you didn't have all the distractions. So, you know, whether you wanted to be bored or not, it would happen. Now, it feels like if you want to be bored, you actually have to practice it. You have to find rituals, whether it's leaving your phone at home and going out for a long walk for hours. You know, now we actually have to kind of carve out what our parents and our parents' parents probably had naturally. So, yeah.

• 39:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. In the book, when we do the the audio version, we have a section in there where we discuss a little bit noble boredom. I believe it's Ortega Ortega Iga Sette, I'm not sure if I'm saying it correctly, who said something to the effect that that when we are bored, it's because the thing we are observing or experiencing fails to find within us a surface upon which it can land. So you're looking at art in a gallery and you're bored because that art has no surface in your soul upon which it can land. You're sitting there at a symphony and you're just bored. That music has no surface within your soul upon which it can land. And as consumers, we make greater demands of the artists and the creators and say, find the surfaces that already exist within me and land on that. And I will deem your music.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  Your movie, your art, good, but we can also be participatory. We can be creators and we can say, I will cultivate and create new surfaces within myself so that I start to see boredom as a mirror reflecting back to me, an opportunity to expand so that I can appreciate what is inherent in the experience.

• 40:39Speaker 03

  Yes, and this is exactly what Pascal talked about with divertissement, which is so

• 40:45Speaker 03

  contemporary, even though he was writing hundreds of years ago, that he said that this divertissement is an attempt to escape the boredom, to escape just what, I think he actually said, you know, how many problems would be solved in the world if we just had the ability to sit in a chair and be, you know, like, but this distraction. So I even think, because you go to a Catholic church, is that right?

• 41:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:07Speaker 03

  Like, in my youth, I've always thought of Catholic churches as profoundly boring. You go in and in Northern Ireland, you go into a Catholic church.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  That's because you're from Northern Ireland.

• 41:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  But that's the propaganda.

• 41:17Speaker 03

  Yes, that's right. Yeah. And going to hell. That was the other thing. Yeah. Boring.

• 41:22Speaker 03

  You'll be all right.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  It's not boring there, TK.

• 41:27Speaker 03

  Yep, that's right. Yeah. But you go into a church, especially if there's nothing happening. When people go into a Catholic church and they'll sit. And increasingly, as I get older, I'm like, oh, that's one of the gifts of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church is boredom, is that you can go in and sit. And sometimes, you say, it can touch you in a very profound way. But also, nothing's happening. And the gift of being in one space where, I mean, there's lots of beautiful things to look at. But ultimately, it's almost like a, it's like a desert in the oasis of life. It's a place outside of the noise and the markets and all of that, this little desert

• 42:07Speaker 03

  that we can go into for a bit, feel the silence. And then we go back into the oasis. But that desert in the oasis space, I think we need, and we need to cultivate. There's something, a virtue to boredom. I'm very good at that. I have to say, I have cultivated laziness in my life, all my life. And that's why I suppose I do philosophy, because I go like, I just need hours of unproductive time just to think, you know, that's. So, yeah, yeah. That's the one part of my life that I'm happy with. Actually, there's other areas of my life that I'm not so happy with. But that's, that freedom from the voice of productivity.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  Well, on page two, I think we'll have a six hour debate about the Holy Trinity.

• 42:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  No, I think there's, there's something fascinating about like embracing your boredom. And maybe, yeah, maybe the black clothes are boring. And maybe there's nothing wrong with that boredom. Maybe we need a little bit more boredom because we're so over stimulators. Nothing wrong with dopamine, but chasing dopamine has made many of us miserable. That burnout makes us miserable. Rob Bell was talking about this weekend when he was at the peak of his success. He was so burnt out, he just flew to Northern Ireland to meet with Peter Rollins. Because he was like, everything was going so well, but he was so burnt out. He had all the dopamine, but he was miserable.

• 43:29Speaker 03

  I love, I love the fact that you've, you've told that story. So like, he had so much going on, so much success. He just needed to be bored, so he visited Pete Rollins.

• 43:40Joshua Fields Millburn?

  How about you listeners? What's, uh, what's wrong with wearing all black? Let us know your thoughts in the comments or in the Patreon community chat. A lot of people communicating over there, talking about what's wrong with wearing all black. I love what Brittany said here. Nothing's wrong as long as you're not clinging to the choice of wearing black. I couldn't have said it better myself. Clinging, yeah, I think that's the thing. I'm open to wearing other things. People go crazy when I do. In fact, I wore this shirt here. A friend, uh, Jamar, sent this to me. His son is like the number one lacrosse player in the country right now. He plays for Ohio State, but this is a shirt he sent me and I was gonna wear it, but I was like, people freak out on our YouTube videos. So I'm not clinging to wearing black.

• 44:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But remember episode 400, I wore a purple shirt and like to celebrate and everyone was like, wait, what's going on? I don't like you like this. And it made me want to lean into it more and start wearing polka dots and stuff, but.

• 44:35Speaker 03

  Being a guy in general is a bit like that. So being a woman, you know, you maybe be a bit more creative. A guy just starts wearing a cap. All his mates will be at the poker table. Oh, look at the fancy man. No, he's a cap man. Oh, I'm just wearing a cap, guys. Guys kind of get more locked in.

• 44:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, look at TK, he's brooding. Just because you're dressed in all black. Well, give me some of the pithy TK. What's? So what's wrong with wearing all black? What's your put the answer for us?

• 45:00Speaker 02

  The right outfit is the one that tells the truth about your values. You said earlier that we're all wearing costumes. Maybe not Halloween costumes, but the purpose of a costume is to create a perception, experience, or a feeling, right? So when it's Halloween and you dress up as a witch, or you dress up as Spider-Man, you want to create the feeling of being festive, or the perception that you are different than who you are in your normal day life, or some kind of sensation or experience that's just important to you. Well, our clothes are a means to an end. We have values that we want to represent. We have games that we want to play. We have goals that we want to pursue. And we pick our outfits based on the best combination of that. So if you're going for a walk and you want to be comfortable, you might not wear your dress shoes.

• 45:44Speaker 02

  You might not wear heels because comfort's the goal. You're going to the beach, you probably won't wear the same outfit you would wear to a wedding, unless the wedding is at the beach, right? And so if I'm going to a job interview, there's a particular game I'm playing. There's a particular kind of effect I want to create on them. And so I'm going to dress differently than how I would when I lay down to go to sleep. And so why is it wrong to wear all black? For the same reason that it's wrong to wear yellow, green, or any other color. It's not wrong at all, but when it stops serving you, when the outfits you're wearing no longer reflect the games you want to play, the goals you want to pursue, the values and convictions you want to represent, and you say, "I don't like this. I feel like I'm living somebody else's life,"

• 46:29Speaker 02

  then the clothes don't fit. And my alternative maxim would be, "Truth fits better than trends." It's not about keeping up with what other people think you should wear. It's about wearing what is true to the games you want to play, the goals you want to pursue, and the values you want to represent. That fits perfectly.

• 46:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, because trendy basically means this is soon to go out of style. That's just a marketing term. Oh, it's on trend, right? It's in vogue. It's like, that means it's going to be out of style really soon, right? If you want to flip it around. I also think, you made me think about Nicodemus. The other way is to opt out. When he goes to a wedding or a funeral, he just wears what I'm wearing right now, a black t-shirt and some black jeans and some black boots. And he wears really colorful socks. And that's it. And whether it's a wedding or a restaurant, or he's just gonna go watch a football game, he's wearing the same thing. He's saying, I opt out of your need for me to put on your costume in order to please you. And I think that that takes some courage, some courage to be disliked, some courage

• 47:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  to disappoint or upset other people. Not intentionally, he's not going out there trying to be disliked or trying to upset other people, but also recognizing I can't please everyone with my outfit. I can't please everyone with anything, but certainly not with the clothes that I wear. Speaking of Nicodemus, let's get him on the line. We'll take a quick break and we'll be right back. Welcome back, y'all. That's almost the end of page one. We're still here with Peter Rollins, but join us on the phone right now from Missoula, Montana. My best friend, Ryan Nicodemus is here. Come on, y'all.

• 48:01Speaker 05

  What's up, y'all? Oh, I'm so happy to be calling in. What a great episode to call in on. I love it.

• 48:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So, Ryan, it's funny, the first question, the woman was asking, Pascal was her name. She said, do you dress in all black? Is it like style for your brand? And I was, I was thinking like, I never really thought about it that way. Is this a style for, I mean, I, maybe not consciously, right?

• 48:26Speaker 05

  It's slimming. That's why I wear it.

• 48:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  No wonder you look so slim.

• 48:31Speaker 05

  You know, I told that to someone, they were like, I'm a maximalist. I like to put, you know, flair, I like to wear a lot of flair. I'm like, oh, I wear black because it's slimming. And he burnt me with, I just like to stay slim.

• 48:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Damn.

• 48:42Speaker 05

  How dare him.

• 48:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, Ryan, I wanted to get you on the phone. Would love to have you in the studio for this, but hopefully we'll have you at the end of this month for our final Sunday Symposium of the Year. We'll talk up with that in a moment, but today, the day this episode comes out on Patreon is December 14th, which means 15 years ago today, we launched a little website, a little blog called theminimals.com.

• 49:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And we were both still in the corporate world, Dayton, Ohio. And we had spent some time that year, all throughout 2010, sort of simplifying our lives. My mom died, my marriage ended the previous year, and I started simplifying. And then later that year in September, you did your packing party. It's where he boxed up everything, pretended he was moving. We featured this, we recreated it in our last Netflix film. And then he unpacked only the things he needed for 21 days. And at the end of that, Ryan, you were just, you had like a, I don't know, this profound moment. We were like, I think other people would enjoy this too. And we never thought any of the stuff when we started that blog. We never even had heard of a podcast at the time.

• 49:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I don't know if Netflix was even around then. We never thought about making movies or writing books together or going out on 11 different tours.

• 50:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But there we were, trying to share something that might add value to people's lives. And I was wondering, do you have any fond memories early on from that first few months of The Mentalist? Before it was even, it hadn't even like solidified yet?

• 50:23Speaker 05

  Oh, man. Yeah, the packing party, I mean, that was definitely like, yeah, a fond memory. You mentioned that, but yeah, just looking at that novel experience and thinking, man, this is like, not only profound, but it is, it's a very weird experiment and very entertaining. And I thought, man, people are going to get a kick out of this. And so, yeah, I'm glad we decided to put that up on the blog. I think one of the first memories that come to mind is that meetup we did in Chicago.

• 50:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, yeah, it was the end of 2010, like, I think it was maybe even December 31st. We drove out to Chicago to be part of a meetup. We met Jeff and Dave out there, who still are web developer and designer to this day. And Colin Wright was out there and several other people.

• 51:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was awesome, man. Like, just a very fond memory of that first meetup. I remember feeling very like not worthy to be around the people we were around. But it was very welcoming. And I just remember the one gentleman who came up to me and he was like, "So where are you guys?" "Oh, we're the Minimalists." "Oh, okay, cool." "And what are you guys doing?" "We're doing a blog." "Oh, okay, cool." "How are you guys gonna make money?" I remember asking that question. I'm like, I'm like, dude, that's not really where my mind's at right now, man. Like, I was like, I know that, you know, there's like, I have a, you know, my friend and I have a book idea. We've got a blog. I'm like, but I'm still working in the corporate world, man. Like, I, you know, cutting it late off till the year after that. I'm like, so I'm just kind of doing this as a passion.

• 51:53Speaker 05

  And I remember him being very concerned about it. I forget exactly. He was the husband of someone who had a blog.

• 51:58Speaker 02

  It was me.

• 51:59Speaker 05

  And he was, yeah, it was TK's husband. But no, I mean, what it came down to was like, you and I did this out of pure, like, just something that we wanted, something that we did, something we wanted to put out in the world. It wasn't a, we have an idea, and now let's put money in the driver's seat and see how we're gonna make money. But this gentleman, his wife was doing a blog, and he was very much putting money in the driver's seat. And they're not around anymore. And it's not that they couldn't have made it, but it just was kind of like a symptom. His question was a symptom of, you know, maybe he didn't really believe in what he was doing if he couldn't make money at it.

• 52:41Speaker 05

  And, you know, like you said, all the things that we've done since we started this with the podcasts and documentaries and books and tours and all that stuff, man. I mean, I love how we have always just put our interests forward, or what we're really, again, just like passionate about. And all that stuff that we've done in the last 15 years has come together. And God, if I would have, if I would have went to him and answered his question with like, "Whoa, we're gonna do podcasts, we're gonna do documentaries, and we're gonna do tours, we're gonna do books." Like, I probably would have bowed out sooner. Like, yeah, I mean, Like I would, or as soon as heated is what I'm trying to say. So it's like, yeah, man, I um,

• 53:22Speaker 05

  very much remember that meetup and kind of uh really feeling good about like, oh wow, like it's, this is something we really want to do. We don't have an idea on how to make money with it, but um, we're really having a good time and uh that's what I looked forward to, was just having a really awesome time, like putting this stuff out there.

• 53:40Joshua Fields Millburn?

  There was no grandiose plan. There wasn't a five-year plan or a 15-year plan. I would have never been able to plan for all of this. And by the way, if you do, and let's say that we had planned literally every single thing that has happened so far and we achieved every single one of them. Well, now you just meet your expectation and now what you you give yourself permission to be satisfied for a moment, that becomes a different kind of chase. But I would say we were sort of following our joy, following our interests is what what Ryan said. And and these things were interesting to us. There was a curiosity there of, oh yeah. And yeah, you're right. Early on, there was like this unworthiness going into that meetup two weeks in, Ryan. We see this all the time now when people come up to us after an event, they're like, now, I'm not a

• 54:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  minimalist. Or we go to their house. Now, just to warn you before you come in, I'm I'm not a minimalist, or I'm trying, but I'm not there yet. And as if we're gonna come in and condemn them for their possessions, right? I think Peter Rollins is the the exception that you go to his house and he's like, now I am a minimalist.

• 54:43Speaker 05

  Oh, he loves to rub it in how he's more of a minimalist than I.

• 54:45Speaker 03

  I do. I always say that to you when you come to my place. I'm very proud of that. I hide stuff as well, so as I can make sure that it's true.

• 54:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  He like, this is what I used to do with Ryan is I would force my things onto him. I'm like getting rid of all my neckties. I'm like, why the hell do I have 70 neckties? Do you know he needs 65 neckties? Ryan, Nick and Emes.

• 55:06Speaker 05

  I'm not gonna do those neckties, I'll take 60 of them.

• 55:11Speaker 03

  I mean, it's very hard to sell something, but it's really hard to sell nothing. I mean, you don't go into selling nothing for to make a living. But in a way, you're making money from selling nothing.

• 55:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, which is fascinating.

• 55:26Speaker 05

  It's true. Well, no, it's funny because there's a New York Magazine quote from my mom where the dude writing the article asked my mom like, why do you think people, you know, come out to see your son and to see Josh? And she was like, all I know is that my son can sell anything.

• 55:42Speaker 03

  Even nothing, even nothing. Whenever you can even sell nothing.

• 55:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  He could sell emptiness to a monk.

• 55:52Speaker 05

  Exactly. But you know, it's funny though, because she said that at first, I'm like, God, mom, why'd you have to say it like that? But then, you know, I looked at it. I'm like, she is right. And you're right, Peter, we're selling nothing. And what helped me see is like, we're all selling something. The question is, is what are you selling? And do you really believe in what you're selling, you know?

• 56:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's, there's one thing to share with you briefly, because as I listen to you guys, there's a, Lacan talks about this idea of like, don't compromise your desire. And what he means by that is not you should, basically, there's a thing called a pleasure principle where you desire comfort. You desire, you know, things that'll make your life easier. Nothing wrong with that. Want a good relationship. We want to make a bit of money. But, but what he means by desire is that weird quirk of that thing that you need to do, whether you make money or not, whether it works or not, whether anybody listens to you or not, whether you've got 10 people listening to your podcast or 10,000 people listening to your podcast. That thing that really actually disrupts your pleasure.

• 56:50Speaker 03

  It's the thing that gets in the way of, of you just leading a simple life. And for people like yourselves, I can see that as like, at one stage, you kind of had the pleasurable life. You were making money, corporate world, you were having those things. But, but then there's something, and it's not something that anybody could have said to you 15 years ago. Oh, you'll make a living from this. Oh, you'll be able to do this. Oh, you'll be, you'll be helping thousands of people, tens of thousands of people, hundreds of thousands of people around the world. No, you would, nobody would have thought to think that you decluttering your lives. Would be something, a gift to other people. That's this disruptive dimension. And amazingly, if you're able to, you know, make a living from doing that, even better. But this disruptive thing that happened 15 years ago.

• 57:35Speaker 03

  Of course, how could you ever have thought, oh, this is the way. This is the way to be successful. No, this is your quirk. This is your, that disruptive desire that you had to follow, that you were live or die to pursue. And I know for you and for me, for us, what we're doing, if, because there's, there's highs and lows in this. That go like, you know, if, if in five years' time, nobody's listening to this podcast, I know you'll still be doing the same stuff. You know, doesn't matter if there's a Netflix documentary or you're doing it with a few people in Ojai. It's like, this is, this is what you live and die for.

• 58:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, it was a lot of beautiful accidents along the way. You know, 10 years ago this month, Ryan, is when we started this podcast. And it was in this little broom closet in, at the University of Montana. We rented for a hundred and twenty dollars a month and they, they literally took the buckets out of there and put them in a different closet nearby. And we crammed a couple of desks in there. And I think for our first podcast, we had one microphone we were sharing. It was me and Ryan and Podcast Sean, just crammed into this, this tiny little room. And we just started recording and there, we didn't think about monetizing it. It's so weird because we don't go like, oh, hey, Ryan, you want to go have coffee? Sure, how are we going to monetize it?

• 58:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But it's a uniquely American mindset where it's like, I enjoy this thing. So thus, Ryan, can we monetize this?

• 59:01Speaker 03

  Yes, and in business, that's the be young, chill hand thing, like almost like even if you have lunch, there has to be a reason for it. Like, oh, this will be a productive lunch. And I remember moving to LA and people who do drugs here do drugs to be more efficient. Like back in Ireland, we get drunk to like get wasted and like forget about your things. And here, I'm going like, people are getting high to, to be more creative, to write that script, to meet baby Jesus or whatever it is. You know, there's, it's like even, even drug taking becomes part of the productive. Process, it has to be woven into being an entrepreneur of the self. Whereas just, just being, having that passion and my advice to anybody is what's that passion that

• 59:44Speaker 03

  anyone has? So you've got what you have to do for pleasure, for work, to pay your bills, to pay your rent. But what's that wee thing that, that you go, oh, I could, that there's no reason to do that. I just, I care about it. I want to make that music. I want to paint. I want to be a great cook. I want to, whatever it is, and go, and, and yeah, and that little voice in your head saying, oh yeah, but that will never result in being productive and making my life better. Go like, make space in your life for that. Might only be a small space, but make space in your life for that. And sometimes if you're lucky, that thing can take more and more space, you know, and that's where the real meat is. Not pleasure so much as enjoyment, as something richer than, than just pleasure, you know, it's, it's, it's meaning, meaning, purpose.

• 1:00:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah. And us finding the meaning, it's not embedded in it. It's not interwoven into the fabric of the podcast. It's us finding the meaning in it.

• 1:00:36Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. Orion, one thing I wanted to just say about your story that really captured me was when that guy came up to you and was like, how are you going to make money? And he was concerned about you. The thing I heard was that he was concerned about himself and might have been looking to you for answers.

• 1:00:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, like, how am I gonna, how, how am I gonna make money off of this? How's my wife gonna make money off of this?

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's exactly right. And sometimes the thing that stops us from doing what you're talking about, the stuff that makes life meaningful, is not only the voice within that says, but what if you don't make it? It's also the voice of other people who didn't figure out and make it work for themselves. And they may come to you and challenge you as a part of the process of dealing with their own resistance. And when we're unable to answer their questions in a way that satisfies them, it can make us internalize that doubt and take it upon ourselves. And it's important to remember that, look, not everyone's gonna make it. But like you said, you gotta have a reason for doing things beyond making it. I just saw an old reel with my, my future boss, Oprah, and, and someone, she was getting ready to start her show, and someone says, well, what if you don't make it?

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  What if your show doesn't turn out to be big? And she says, that's fine. I'll, I'll still be happy. I'll still believe in what I do. I'll still enjoy the conversations that I'm going to have. It'll be nice to have a popular show that lots of people listen to. But I'm going to do it anyway and I'm going to be fine. And I think that's the kind of mindset that you guys have had about it. Where you found a way to sell nothing, so to speak. But even in the absence of that, y'all would still be doing it. The question is, you know, would the mics be turned on? But it's not like you wouldn't be getting together, talking, you know, every week about these things.

• 1:02:12Speaker 03

  Absolutely. You may end up, you may end up like, I'm genuinely back in the broom cupboard. In, in 10 years' time, like I think about my own work. I, I feel like the cat in a cartoon, you know, that's run off the side of the cliff and its legs are still going, but it's not falling, right? But when it looks down, then it falls. And I'm like that cat, cause I'd be like, how am I making a living doing this? But I, I do want to ask the question, cause I think if I look, it'll just all collapse, you know? But if I end up back in, where I lived in Lake Hill Street, it's called The Village in Belfast. It's little, if I end up back there, doing what I'm doing, brilliant. Like, it's wonderful that I can travel to LA, that I can be in this room with you guys. We can all be doing, it's incredible.

• 1:02:55Speaker 03

  But I know if in 20 years' time, 30 years' time, we're sitting in the old people's home and no one's listening to us anymore and we're just still doing our thing, we'll just be as happy, you know? Because it's, because it's the passion. And if that shifts, I know in my life, if it shifts and it suddenly becomes, oh, I just do this professionally, that's the time to walk away, you know? That's the time to walk away. This stuff is like, this stuff is in you. It's, it's part of who you are, it's the essence of who you are, you know, so.

• 1:03:21Speaker 05

  Yeah. And making money, there's nothing wrong with that, right?

• 1:03:24Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, nothing wrong with that. And if you're lucky, you can get that, yeah.

• 1:03:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's gonna be in the vehicle. It's just like, like we always say, it's like, when we put it in the driver's seat, that's when. That's when the love for money really corrupts, you know, and it just makes one do what they don't want to do, or they're not necessarily joyful to do. Like if Josh and I really wanted to make an NTK, like if we wanted to make a bunch of money, we would go to minimalist home tours and turn on, you know, all the ads and promote all the minimalist home products. I mean, that's, that's where the money's at for minimalism right now, you know, but like that wouldn't be enjoyable. That's not what we're passionate about.

• 1:04:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, or we stop doing this altogether and like go work on Wall Street or something, right?

• 1:04:08Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:04:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so like, I agree with your point there. Like money is a passenger in the vehicle, but it's a drunk driver when you put it in the driver's seat.

• 1:04:15Speaker 03

  And this is, there's a philosopher, two philosophers called Deleuze and Guattari, and they used to write together. And one of the things that they were very good at writing about is how often what we create on our passions get woven into becoming a commodity. And then we start selling the commodity as, you know, the thing that will work. But when, so you don't start off making a commodity. You start off doing something because you believe in it. But we live in a system where if, if you're successful, there's a real, there's almost kind of like a tractor beam. It's almost like the dark, the death star grabs your ship and starts to pull you in. It becomes a commodity and then the money

• 1:04:57Speaker 03

  becomes the driver's seat. And it's almost impossible to avoid that. I think what you guys do is an attempt, is a continual pulling away from that tractor beam. You find a way to kind of do stuff and make a living, but you, you don't do adverts. You haven't given into that. You do these free events. You give away so much free content. And it's that temptation that I always have to remind, remember in my head that if I become more successful, for example, there'll always be this, it's not even, it's not a conspiracy. There's no individual doing it, but what I'm doing might become a commodity. And then I start to just care more about the money than the passion. And if that happens, it's

• 1:05:39Speaker 03

  not even selfish. It's, it's because your life will become rubbish. The selfish bit is holding on to the passion because that's the real fun, you know? The making money's a great if it happens, but it's, it's the work that that's where all the fun is, you know?

• 1:05:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, happy birthday to us, Nicodemus.

• 1:05:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, man.

• 1:05:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Fifteen years today, ten years on the podcast. If folks would like to celebrate with us, you can just leave us. We don't cop on every podcast, say, please, give us a five star review. But occasionally, we have a big anniversary or something, a birthday. Now's a good time to celebrate with us. Hop on over to Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Even if you listen on a different podcast app, it helps us reach more people. If you leave us a review on either platform, that'd be super helpful.

• 1:06:23Speaker 03

  Be maximalist in your reviews.

• 1:06:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:06:26Speaker 03

  Maximum stars. Minimalism in your life, maximalism in your reviews.

• 1:06:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Indeed. And Ryan, there's a good chance you'll be joining us at the end of this month.

• 1:06:37Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:06:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  On December 28th. It's our last Sunday Symposium of the Year. And then we're going to take a break for a while. In fact, I'm going to have lunch with Peter after this. We're going to try to sort of reconceptualize what do events look like going forward? And so we're going to take a quick break. So last chance to see the minimalists, me and TK and Ryan will be in Los Angeles on the very final Sunday of the year. It is December 28th. You can grab your free tickets while they're still available over at Sunday Symposium.com. Ryan, can you stick around for another question in a moment?

• 1:07:10Speaker 05

  Absolutely. And I want to throw in there that the only thing, Ryan, I have to nail down right now is a cat sitter. So if there's anyone in Missoula listening to this and wants to house sit a cat, or if they just want a cat, if they want us to just give them our cat.

• 1:07:22Speaker 03

  I am so tempted. You know how I come to LA at the moment? I dog sat for a friend, my friend Elliot, who I had a podcast with. They were away for six weeks and I said, I'll look after your dog. And then another friend said, oh, do you want to look after our dog? So I'm currently in LA because I'm looking after another dog or another friend. And then another friend said, could you look at? So I am now philosopher, dog sitter, and you know, and yeah, whatever. I don't, I'm not so sure about the philosopher, but I'm definitely a dog sitter now. So I might become a cat sitter. So maybe, maybe I should come to Missoula.

• 1:07:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But are they all the same?

• 1:07:55Speaker 03

  What's that?

• 1:07:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Are those things the same? Dog sitter philosopher?

• 1:07:58Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Amen.

• 1:08:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, Peter, if you like the snow and you like cold, then you get your butt out here.

• 1:08:04Speaker 03

  Oh, God, that's a sign so good.

• 1:08:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, we've got much work coming up. Nicodemus is going to be with us for page two. But first here is a minimalist tip from one of our listeners, one of our beautiful German listeners.

• 1:08:16Speaker 06

  Hi, this is Greta from Germany. I have a little trick for everyone who wants to cut down on the time they spend scrolling social media. There's a really cool feature on the homepage of The Minimalists. You go to theminimalists.com/random and it spits out a random article from their large archives. Whenever I feel the itch to go to Instagram, I now instead open this page and read the random essay that pops up. That does not take a lot of time, gives me something valuable to think about, and has no risk of falling into a scrolling frenzy. Hope this idea helps someone.

• 1:09:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Greta, thank you so much for that thoughtful comment. You know, we just published our recent TEDx talk called "Scrolling is the New Smoking." And it was funny because this weekend I'm with Peter Rollins and he's there with Rob Bell and they're doing this podcast together. And immediately he starts crapping on TED Talks. I'm like, damn, one just came out.

• 1:09:19Speaker 03

  That's right. I forgot about that. Yes.

• 1:09:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Anyway.

• 1:09:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Whoa, I'm all choked up, Ryan.

• 1:09:28Speaker 03

  Fifteen years from now, he dies, I see. That would be the ultimate, like, and points to the minimalists.

• 1:09:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, that'd be great. Anyway, it's called "Scrolling is the New Smoking." Wow. And yeah. Anyway, TK, do you have a favorite moment from that talk? Because I'm all choked up right now. We got a new Jordan. Someone stole my water.

• 1:09:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We got a new Jordan meme here, like crying, crying Josh.

• 1:09:55Speaker 03

  That's a sports reference. I'm not gonna get it.

• 1:09:57Speaker 02

  I'm sorry.

• 1:09:58Speaker 03

  Unless it's about the Harlem Globetrotters. I don't know.

• 1:10:00Speaker 02

  I'm so sorry. Okay, favorite tip with the new twist is the casino technique, where I talk about the importance of thinking ahead of time before you go into the casino, how much you're going to spend, how long you're gonna be there, so that no matter how lucky you feel, when you get to your number, you walk out, to do that same thing with your phone. But here's a positive twist, and I just call it plan frivolity. Instead of just thinking about it negatively, like, hey, I'm only gonna pick up my phone for 30 minutes. Just be honest with yourself about the desire to play on your phone. Sometimes you want to scroll to see what's out there. You don't have a clear agenda or constructive purpose. You just wanna find something funny or find something fascinating.

• 1:10:42Speaker 02

  Give yourself permission to do that and plan on it and say, for the next 20 minutes, or for this 30-minute time slot, I'm just gonna pick up my phone, fool around, and give myself permission to do it, but I'm gonna stop at the end of that. And that way, you stop demonizing your interest in that way, and you just sort of give into it, but in a way that has some structure around it, so you can say, hey, I wanna keep my word and end it at this time, but also the knowledge that I can come back and get to do this again, keeps me going.

• 1:11:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, it's probably worth saying that I agree with all of Peter's take about TED Talks generally. It's like, and it'd be rather, I have a lot of hubris to say, but ours is different, right? No, I don't necessarily think ours is different, but I do think it illustrates a problem, and people are looking for something sort of pithy. But to me, it's been a great on-ramp to the broader, more philosophical things we do. You know, to talk about something, we spent probably 300 hours on that talk, scrolling is the new smoking. And me and Nicodemus and TK, we had a lot of fun. There's a lot of jokes in it. And like, part of it was like, just pursuing an interest. We were meeting every single day, going through this talk together. Savvy D was meeting with us,

• 1:11:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  and we were just trying to figure this out, like, how can we add value to better illustrate this problem? So you can check that out. I think it's just theminimalists.com/smoking, if you wanna check out the TEDx talk. For anyone else has a listener tip or insight about this episode or any other episode, you can send us a voice memo, just like Bretta did, [email protected]. You don't have to be from Germany, although we do prioritize those messages. Nicodemus, I love you. Sign up for his mentoring messages, RyanNicodemus.com. It's good to hear your voice, brother, as always.

• 1:12:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, I love you guys. Good to talk to you guys and thanks for having me.

• 1:12:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We love you, brother. Always, anytime.

• 1:12:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, y'all. Up next, page two, the rest of page two and page three, but first, let's take a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right back.

• 1:12:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, y'all, that is the first 34% of episode 518. We'll see you on Patreon for the full two-hour, actually, it's almost three-hour maximal edition because, of course, Peter Rollins is here. We're gonna answer a bunch more of your questions. "How can I make letting go feel more effortless?" We also talk about turning your weaknesses into a superpower there. That was a really helpful conversation. "Should I cut off my friend if her behavior gets in the way of my peace?" Also, "How often does a minimalist change their underwear?" Nicodemus had a good answer for that one. Plus, we've got a million more questions and Simple Living segments over on the Minimalist Private Podcast

• 1:13:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  on Patreon. The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private podcast episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our archives, 10 years of archives over there on Patreon. Shout out to our special guest today. Peter Rollins is here. Yes. Check out his Patreon, patreon.com/peterrollins. You can also go to peterrollins.com. And, oh, check out his YouTube channel as well. A lot of free seminars up there. Peter, always such a pleasure to have you in the studio, man.

• 1:14:06Speaker 03

  Pleasure to be here. Always an honor for you to have me.

• 1:14:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Our audience absolutely loves you. That is our minimal episode for today. Big thanks to Earthing Studios for the recording space. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, post-production Peter, Spire Jeff and Dave, Jordan O'More, Tom Cat, Professor Sean, Savvy D, and the rest of our team, I'm Joshua Fields Milburn. If you leave here with just one message, let it be this: Love people and use things, because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Peace.

• 1:14:42Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.