Emma D'Arcy

Emma D'Arcy was a revelation to many for their performance in HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. And now in their first podcast chat ever(!) Emma opens about their journey from theater to the absolute center of culture, navigating being a gender non-conforming actor, and why all they want is a sword next season! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Josh Horowitz?

  Emma, have you done much of this kind of thing before?

• 0:33Speaker 02

  No. You know what's funny, Josh? I've never even done, I've never done the House of the Dragon podcast. I've never been on it.

• 0:44Josh Horowitz?

  I am humbly very honored.

• 0:47Speaker 03

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now.

• 0:55Josh Horowitz?

  I'm Josh Horowitz, and today on Happy, Sad, Confused, Emma D'Arcy is here. If you're like me, you watched House of the Dragon with great anticipation with actors like Matt Smith, Reece Ifans, and Olivia Cook. You knew that you were in good hands, but it is the revelation that it's Emma D'Arcy as Rhaenyra who has mesmerized so many of us. I'm so thrilled that Emma is with me today. It's a little late where Emma is, but I thank you. How's it going?

• 1:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, so good. Yeah, no, it's late here. So by comparison, your life looks very well organized. And as I look at my little picture of myself, it looks like I'm shooting a video diary in like a 90s horror film.

• 1:36Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, it's kind of video, yeah, horror film slash hostage video.

• 1:44Speaker 02

  Exactly, like, you know, if any of my family are watching.

• 1:48Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, let her hold up a newspaper. Emma is okay. Yeah.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  Today, twenty sixth of November, two thousand twenty four.

• 1:56Josh Horowitz?

  Exactly, exactly. So I am catching you a little late, so I thank you for that. And also coming off a lot of work, it seems like, did you basically do two plays essentially back to back over back home?

• 2:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did the double, as Matt called it, I did the double. No, very nice. It turns out all I needed in order to have a theatre career was to do a show about dragons on HBO. So anyway, here we are.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  I've come home to the stage. No, um, no, yeah, it's been really busy. It wasn't sort of intentional. This was supposed to be the fallow period before we go and shoot more stuff. But I feel really fortunate. I, I, I, um. Theatre was like such a foundational space for me and it had been such a long time since I'd. I hadn't been on stage since sort of pre pandemic and it suddenly became

• 2:55Speaker 02

  something that had fear in it again, which was such a new idea, like, um. Even sort of starting out, I don't know why, I think because when I was making bits of theatre with friends, I was often doing, you're playing, you're doing multiple jobs within the sort of theatrical object at once. And so there's not like loads of time to sort of ruminate on the idea of going on stage, it's sort of very haphazard. But, uh, yeah, for the first time, sort of earlier this year, I noticed that the idea felt a bit frightening and I worried that I would have to change the sort of biography I give about myself, about how sort of state is my home. And that felt like a huge amount of effort, so I thought I'd better go and check that it still applies.

• 3:38Josh Horowitz?

  And the check mark of pause, you, you, you acclimated, you got back into the rhythms?

• 3:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, it turns out I still really like it.

• 3:47Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, one, I mean, one significant difference, though, as you all know, is, I mean, the eyeballs are now on you. I mean, more so than ever. Did you, did you feel that? Was that palpable? In, uh, you know, at the dressing room doors, et cetera, or on stage, like, do you feel a little bit of a different energy? Thanks to what House of the Dragon has brought you?

• 4:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, um, I suppose that was different and I didn't, uh, I didn't anticipate it. There, there seems to be a theme, sort of not anticipating the thing until it's happening. But, um, yeah, the context in which I was on stage had changed. Um, uh, I, I suppose it was definitely my first experience of. I'd never done the stage door thing, you know, um, I'd never like had that experience before. And yeah, and I had never, it's a different type of pressure, I suppose. Um, I, I understand better the sort of freedom that you have kind of early in your career because the stakes feel high, but really the stakes are low and, um.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I think I was maybe fortunate, um, the first of the two productions I was just part of was, um, with an amazing, uh, practitioner called Katie Mitchell and her work is sort of so specific, um, so kind of exacting in its form that there's actually, there's not that room, that much room, there's not that much wiggle room as a performer. So, uh, I was very much there as putty for Katie as opposed to any other sort of facility, um.

• 5:19Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I, I, I think I, I've always found that I gain a feeling, I, I, I, I gain some sort of power in the conversation that happens sort of on stage between an actor and an audience. So even though it was frightening, I, I was happy to discover that I had the same sensation of, um, kind of growing rather than shrinking, uh, you know, when, when the curtain comes up.

• 5:45Josh Horowitz?

  What were, when you think back to growing up, what were the, um, first theatrical performances you went to that maybe rocked your world? Are there any that jump out?

• 5:56Speaker 02

  You know what, um? Well, like Panto actually is a big, is a, it's a, it's a big cultural event in this country. And we went to Panto and I love, I really liked that a lot, um. Uh, actually my mum used to, uh, like child mind, um, a friend of mine and, and, and her sister. And my mum would be paid in theatre tokens. That was what she asked for. We didn't have like a load of cash, but I think my mum wanted to be able to do that stuff. And so this sort of after school work that she did allowed us to go and, um, and see stuff, um. Yeah, panto is the big one that like springs.

• 6:41Josh Horowitz?

  I, if you will indulge me, I do want to go back because, and here's what I discovered, Emma, as I was doing some research. And usually it's the other way around where like I do, I do an interview with somebody and I'm like, oh my God, they've done 300 podcasts. There's nothing left to talk about. Emma, have you done much of this kind of thing before?

• 7:00Speaker 02

  No. You know, it's funny, Josh, I've never even done, I've never done the House of the Dragon podcast. I've never.

• 7:11Josh Horowitz?

  I am humbly, very honored. Um, well, I, I, I'm gonna make this as easy and painless as possible. I appreciate the trust. Uh, very foolish, very foolish, but, um, no, but, uh, look, I, I, I love this stuff and I love talking about movies, film and theater. So we are, you're in good hands, I promise. Um, but. So yeah, so we talked about theater love growing up. Were you, I mean, it sounded like your parents were both interested in the arts, had a lot of love for the arts, even though their careers weren't necessarily directly in the stuff that you ended up doing. Um, was film and TV very much in the household? Music, theater, the arts everywhere? Or, or, or did you find it on your own?

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Do you know, my, my dad was, um, uh, yeah, maybe not a cinephile, but like, he was a big lover of science fiction, actually particularly. Um, and that's something that he, uh, passed on to me. Um, I think a nice thing maybe about a being of my generation is that like, I didn't have like a hu- a super broad access. I had my VHS collection. So instead of sort of breadth, you have, um, you have a, a culture of rewatching, right? And so.

• 8:20Josh Horowitz?

  Obsessively, yeah.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so, uh, I don't know, things that come to mind are like 2001 A Space Odyssey, um, Close Encounters of the Dark Kind. Uh, like those are, those were sort of seminal foundational works, uh, of my childhood, um, uh, that came from my dad. Um, and yeah, I think like me and my sibling were really fortunate in that we. We grew up in a household where, actually like particularly sort of visual art was really valued and um there was a sort of cupboard full of bits of card and things that could be stuck to other things and we were encouraged to do that, you know, to to draw and to stick things down and um

• 9:08Speaker 02

  I'm always like really struck like I knew that the idea of like the artist was valued in my um household um and I I sort of knew that we didn't have much cash, but but the thing that, yeah, the thing that was sort of heralded was this sort of idea of the artist and I'm always really amazed when I meet people who you know uh who are artists, who have a sort of deeply artistic sensibility, but for whom um that wasn't part of the value system. Cause uh

• 9:38Josh Horowitz?

  They had to really seek it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 9:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And like what it what sort of opened that? What? Cause you know, in a in a way, I I I followed the formula.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  You know, I, yeah, I did as I was told, actually.

• 9:52Josh Horowitz?

  But it's it does sound like from from what I've read, like you kind of did find your own path in that. While fine arts was rewarding, it sounds like what you discovered, and correct me if I'm wrong, is you really gravitated towards collaboration and not wanting to kind of like silo off and work on your own thing, but like what you got off on was working with other folks. And when did that, when did, if that's true, when did that happen for you?

• 10:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's totally true. Um I think it first started happening, I did like an art foundation after I was at school and that was amazing. It allowed me to have a second shot at building a personality. It was really a sort of saving grace in my teenage years and um and when I was there, I was really fortunate and I met some really interesting people and it was sort of my first experience of making work uh as a little sort of collective of artists and that sort of delicious cross fertilization of uh ideas between peers and um and then when I uh and and and it's a funny thing, like when you're sort of studying art, which is

• 10:57Speaker 02

  like in itself quite a weird proposition, like what are you doing? Like it's sometimes it's hard to say. But but you're in a sort of communal environment, right? And you're in like a shared studio space or whatever and Like, I love that and I was lucky, we, I did some sort of like, more like performance art stuff with like some other artists. And, uh, but I could see that that's, that, that, that isn't the model, the industry's not really set up for that. And, um, yeah, as you say, I, I just, I don't have the, I didn't get the obsessive gene. Like, if you put me in a room, I don't, um,

• 11:37Speaker 02

  I, I don't sort of make for the short, for, for the like shore, the, the like sheer need to sort of produce. I don't have that, like.

• 11:45Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  My dad had that actually. And so I sort of know that I'm not obsessive in that way. And I, I, I, I need to be held to account. And, um, and so I, yeah, but, but I think like, working collaboratively has always been a bit of a drug to me.

• 12:01Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 12:02Speaker 02

  Uh, I like the sense of kind of losing the individual within the sort of collective aim and, uh.

• 12:10Josh Horowitz?

  It's, it's what you, we, we wish for everybody, right? Is to find, to find your tribe, to find folks that, that make you feel less weird, less of the outcast. You, you can't be the weirdo if there are ten other weirdos with you that are also into this crazy endeavor. Um, we all feel a little less alone when we find like-minded folks. And that's the beauty, I think, of any great, you know, artistic endeavor. Um, so who were you? Who were you in high school? Like, were you, did you have a, did you have a club? Did you have a tribe at all or not really?

• 12:42Speaker 02

  No. So, this is, um, it's okay, right? Because, um, uh, I feel that the tragedy is now concluded, but.

• 12:51Josh Horowitz?

  Right. We can now laugh about it. We can now smile about it.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, but really my, my like high school period was a, was a kind of fundamental car crash. It was the really sort of, it was okay though. It's fine. Uh, you know, it's a, it's a formative experience. Honestly, um.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  I would probably have bullied me. Um, no.

• 13:16Josh Horowitz?

  Don't say that.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  Some people, I, I, I've been slow to gestate at every stage and um. Like for example, uh, I, I, I sort of like the last year, just before I went to high school. I was still sort of playing imaginary games and no one told me that you must not do that when you cross the threshold into high school. You know, so it's like.

• 13:41Josh Horowitz?

  Got it.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  It's these things, it's these small pieces of knowledge that are uh, can be so definitive in one's life anyway. Um, no, so I didn't really have a tribe or even a, a personality uh, during high school. Um.

• 13:56Josh Horowitz?

  Emma, I don't, I, I see a personality in front of me. I don't believe it. What do you mean?

• 14:00Speaker 02

  No, no, it's true. I just, um. Uh, yeah, it just, uh, no, it just went into hiding for seven years, but then it was okay. But then, as I say, it was okay because I, I, um. I went and did a foundation and yeah, and I, I like, I was good at art and that stood in for a personality for seven years. And then, um, and then, and then I, and then I got a second shot and not everyone does. So, uh, yeah.

• 14:26Josh Horowitz?

  All's well that ends well.

• 14:33Josh Horowitz?

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• 18:01Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, so let's let's start to get into the career stuff. So you find you find your tribe, you start to collaborate, you're working in theater. Is, do you have a mind on getting into film and TV? And did you see a place for yourself? Did you see a path?

• 18:18Speaker 02

  I, uh, I, I didn't like anticipate ending up on the screen. It didn't, um, I, yeah, it wasn't like a, it wasn't like a sort of clear destination that I was sort of driving towards. After I left university, I was kind of committed to theater and was sort of just trying to do that for as long as I could get away with it. And I think I had to work out what it meant to be a gender nonconforming person who wanted to also act. And I briefly thought, and not again, not in a particularly sort of regretful way even, I thought, oh,

• 19:02Speaker 02

  that you can't have both. You sort of have to choose. And I sort of didn't mind that because I'm a sort of closeted workaholic. So I, at the time, I sort of felt, it felt like a clear, yeah, it felt like a sort of necessary evil of something that I, from which I derived a lot of joy. I don't know. And, um,

• 19:23Josh Horowitz?

  So do you feel like at that time, in those early years, you're, I mean, are you leading a split, like, you're not hiding anything, but you are leading a different kind of a identity for the purpose of, I don't know, making folks comfortable or what? I mean, I get it. It's a confusing, these things have shifted very quickly in the last few years. And I can only imagine.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  I was quite like slow to the language. Also, it's not like, it's not like I could explain myself, you know, like, for a long time, I couldn't explain myself. And I suppose when I joke about having no personality in high school, like, probably the beginning of a, a battle was taking place that again, I had no language for. And, and in some way, like, I couldn't help but mark myself out. It was by accident, but some of that internal warfare was presenting itself externally. And that didn't help in the process of making, you know, finding a tribe, as you put it. But, um, but and then in my like, sort of, yeah, like, early twenties, I was, it was only then, it was only after I left university that sort of language started to reach me that.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  Felt applicable to the experience that had been playing itself out for the sort of previous ten years um and longer um. I I I had like a, I think in the process of trying to get an agent, which is what I understood one had to do if one wanted to be an actor. And although I wasn't maybe admitting aloud that that's what I wanted to do. I I sort of, you know, like somewhere in the private corner of my psyche, that was a a sort of quiet ambition and. I think in the process of that, I. Uh began presenting in a way that was more feminine, but like the. Sort of for the first time. I mean, not in it, not particularly extreme, but I sort of grew my hair and like. I I I had the markers of a of a of a woman actor.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  And then I and then I did get an agent and that was great. And I suddenly had this panic that I had. Uh I'd like misled him. And that I and that I had fettered myself to something I couldn't live as. And I had a real sort of meltdown about it and I didn't know what to do. Because I thought I duped this lovely man. And possibly got both what I wanted and didn't want simultaneously. And yeah, and I just didn't know how to navigate it um. And at that time, it wasn't clear that. I mean, it's so strange, right? Because my job is transformation is built into what we do.

• 21:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  Quite literally, and um. I don't think there's any surprise in the the fact that the job I do allowed me to sort of run away from myself in some aspect a lot of the time. Um maybe my broad, the my my gestation period in my life has been longer because I've spent. Like periods of it as other people, you know, like um. Uh. But yeah, I I and the industry is remains and certainly was at the start of my career, pretty conservative.

• 22:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 22:30Speaker 02

  When it comes to casting um. And actually, like weirdly, there's sometimes I think a slight imaginative failure when when it comes to casting, like. Actually, we have such extraordinary technology and sort of hair, makeup and costume for transformation. Um it needn't feel like an obstacle and yet.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  For like many reasons. Yeah, so. Yeah, it's been like an amazing uh period of learning that you can have both and that you can live in the gaps in a way that is um. You know, uh comfortable and satisfying and also go and do your work and um. Yeah.

• 23:12Josh Horowitz?

  So what when when House of the Dragon happens for you and you actually get the role. Do they bring up how would you like to identify like I mean, is that something you brokered with them? Is that a touchy? I mean, it's a touchy thing to discuss. And this is a big moment in your life and career for a thousand different reasons. Can you take me through the thought process of like this is the time to shift professionally?

• 23:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, so as you say, so I had prior to that, I had uh I I had separated my sort of personal and professional selves. And for you know, for many reasons. But yeah, actually, it was HBO that came to us. And I think part of that was, you know, in a very, very small way, I think there was some evidence of. Um my like gender identity like sort of on the internet, whatever, but they came to me and said. You know, at the point at which we start, you know, releasing press packets about this show and stuff, how do you want to be referred to? And I I did really think about it, but.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  I think I worried about repeating the this moment of feeling like I'd imprisoned myself with my agent again in a sort of far more public forum. And at the time, it felt like I was making a decision with potential sort of ramifications that I couldn't yet understand. Like if I were to make a similar, if I would have to make a similar decision now, I would have a much better sense of the parameters of something like that. But at the time, I just I didn't have a profile. I just um.

• 24:43Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Knew something big was happening, but like it's hard to actually wrap your brain around what's coming, I'm sure. Yeah.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Totally, totally. Um.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so but then, yeah, so then we just said, yeah, and then and then rather than being two people, I was one person, just like that. Amazing. Um, and yeah, I feel very fortunate. I feel very fortunate um to have, I guess, come into all of this at the point that I did, because actually, a few years previously, the conversation would have been completely different.

• 25:21Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  And um, or or non-existent, or I would have had to have a sort of formal sit-down with everyone, you know, later. Like, I I don't I don't really, that's not really like my way, but um, I think I was very lucky with the timing.

• 25:37Josh Horowitz?

  So let's dig into the substance of the show and this amazing character. Um, as I understand it, you are auditioning, you're in the process, and you come up with a pro and con list. Is this true? Is this is this accurate? Can you give me a sneak peek? Can you give me a little peek? What are a couple of the pros, a couple of the cons? And did they come to pass or not come to pass?

• 25:59Speaker 02

  Well, so the big con, um, as I remember it, was like loss of anonymity, because I'm like a big, a deeply introverted person.

• 26:09Josh Horowitz?

  You're in your bunker. You're in your hostage bunker. We see.

• 26:13Speaker 02

  Exactly. Uh, uh, what are the cons? Like, um, oh, like, like, I didn't really know if this was something I could do.

• 26:28Josh Horowitz?

  That's a big one. Can I actually do the thing?

• 26:31Speaker 02

  Can I do the thing? And if I can't, I'm gonna find out with like a lot of other people at the same time. And that feels like, it feels like quite a harsh environment in which to fail. And and and not even like, I I I think failure is a really important part of one's practice. It's just I would have chosen sort of the very most sort of public forum in which to do that. Um.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, yeah, I, I worried about this sort of stuff about like the having to be yourself, self bit like I've always felt a lot more comfortable as other people um and I think that's like a kind of interesting paradox about the like requirements of the contemporary actor like so many of us have health uh uh unhealthily sort of run away for from our own discomfort by um playing other people and now we're brought out to um I don't know, present ourselves.

• 27:31Josh Horowitz?

  I just had literally this entire, I, Paul Meskell just did the podcast at the end of an insane press tour for Gladiator two. And he was so, it was actually a fantastic conversation because it was all about this. It was like this push and pull and you know from his work like what he gravitates towards and he's a true artist. And it's like, but he did the hot ones, he did the puppies, he did it all. And he, it's just, he's, he's wrestling with it in real time and you all are and it's a kind of a fascinating push and pull unless your name is Leonardo DiCaprio, you kind of have to play the game a little bit.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:04Josh Horowitz?

  It's kind of crazy.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  It, it is crazy and it takes a really long time to have any understanding of the parameters of the game. I think this is the thing that makes it quite like in turn sort of frightening and absurd. Um, uh, I hope Paul's all right. I can't really imagine the I, I, the, the scale, the intensity, the requirement, the um I hope, I think something that I've thought more recently is that it's very important to contextualize that stuff as work because sometimes, especially the event side of that thing, it's sort of presented as um, I don't know, like, like sort of a social like event, uh, uh, there's a

• 28:50Speaker 02

  There's a sort of fetishization of that object.

• 28:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 28:54Speaker 02

  And in fact, it is, it's, you know, it's a marketing tool and that's fine. And I, I find it really useful to put it back in the right box.

• 29:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  Because not least because it means it's okay to feel very stressed, you know.

• 29:09Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right.

• 29:10Speaker 02

  Uh, one can also do it at a party and I frequently do, but um.

• 29:14Josh Horowitz?

  You're talking to, you're talking to a kindred spirit. I was an outcast in high school. I'm out, outcast at parties. We can hang, Emma, it's okay.

• 29:23Josh Horowitz?

  Um, also part of the lore of you taking on this role is I think you broke bread with Amelia Clark. As I understand it, can you reveal without revealing too much, a little bit of what was helpful to hear from her? Before you jumped into this crazy endeavor?

• 29:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did, I did break bread with Amelia. Um, she was so generous. Uh, it was beautiful, actually. It was such a nice evening. Um, she was incredibly frank. She was super candid. Um, and her advice was amazing because it was both sort of, uh, uh, sort of broad, um, sort of embracing wisdom about like, um, I suppose the sort of, the psychic change that one's about to undergo. But also like practical stuff, like I really remember her saying like, your trailer is your space. Decorate it, use it, uh, you know, just like tiny things.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  Uh, and, and like, you know, we, we talked about the, about the, um, the practicalities of wearing a wig every day. What that does to your scalp, um, the issues you're gonna have, you know, like, it's like really good.

• 30:36Josh Horowitz?

  The real stuff, yeah, yeah.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, the real stuff, um.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  I mean, I feel fortunate because I, I think, again, we experienced a fraction of the baptism of fire for, without trying to make some sort of Taggarian pun, that Amelia went through. But even so, I think, I suppose it's like this show has a, you, you, you enter something with a, with a history that that precedes you, right? And that's quite a like specific environment to find yourself in. And

• 31:21Speaker 02

  I think I, I've felt until just recently, like a sort of trepidatious visitor. But I now feel like I sort of got my citizenship. Like, maybe, I don't know why, but after the second series and that's sort of done. And I feel like, yeah, I feel more confident in my citizenship.

• 31:38Josh Horowitz?

  You should. I mean, I do, I feel like you could easily delude yourself. And I read something to the effect of this, like the first series, like, oh, I don't come in until halfway, after halfway through. I'm not an actual lead of this. Sorry, Emma, you're the lead arguably of this show as much as anyone. So, but yes, it takes time and it's, and look, all of those accoutrements. This is a very unusual job for a thousand different reasons. The lineage, everything about it. I would imagine a lot of the help comes from the company of actors that you're keeping. And I've, I've been privileged enough to get to know some of them. Uh, let's talk about a few because, uh, the internet loves few things more than you and Olivia, as you well know.

• 32:19Josh Horowitz?

  Do you remember first impressions? Did you guys connect on a deep level immediately? Or did it take some time? What, how did that relationship develop?

• 32:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I, I feel like a slight scratch record because I, I do just love her and I loved her. Uh, like immediately. Uh, we met, um, sort of the first time we met both, uh, we met Miguel and Ryan, the, the showrunners on the first series. Um, they had us over for dinner when we were both cast. And it was the first time that me and Olivia met and I sort of, um, I sort of clung to her, I think, um, like, uh, like some sort of lichen, um, I, uh, I don't know what it is. I don't know why we, I don't know how we were so fortunate, but I, I just, I sort of recognized her and I think maybe she felt the same and, um,

• 33:14Speaker 02

  it didn't take long to feel, uh, to have like a deep sort of shared understanding of her, of each other, um. So weird, our job, right? Because like out of nowhere, someone walks into your life who becomes fundamentally important. And I'm like sort of blown away by that on repeat, like, uh, that's a kind of miracle. And also even like a potential danger of project-based work like this, uh, especially as like an actor or a maker or, uh, I think any creative who has to come in in a sort of open-hearted way to work collaboratively, collaboratively with others, like,

• 33:58Speaker 02

  you, you just don't know how important someone's gonna be. It's like nuts. And Liv is one of the sort of pillars in my life, which is, you know, what a remarkable thing to happen, like, shouldn't be allowed, really.

• 34:16Josh Horowitz?

  You're allowed. Were you aware of the word? Did you know what shipping was prior to being a part of this show?

• 34:23Speaker 02

  Sorry, say that again.

• 34:25Josh Horowitz?

  Were you aware of the word shipping prior to this show? The, uh, the idea? No, this is, this is new for you.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 34:33Josh Horowitz?

  Do you get a kick out? Do you get a kick out of it? The folks that project whatever they want to on this relationship on screen that you guys maybe are putting there, maybe aren't putting there?

• 34:43Speaker 02

  Do you know what, I, this is, I, I realize this is like a, it's a depressing way to respond to your question, but I feel that it's not for me and Liv. You know, like, um, uh, I, I, I appreciate its existence. I don't, I don't, I leave it well alone. We're, we're like, we're like, we're respectful neighbors. And, um, that feels like the sort of appropriate way to, um, to relate to that stuff. Um, that said, like, I love the sort of creativity that comes with a, with a fanbase like that of Thrones and House of the Dragon. Like, there's so much production going on peripheral to the show itself, like.

• 35:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  I, I find that kind of, uh, just like an amazing, I, I, I would like to have been part of something like that.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  As a, you know, as a, as a younger person, for example. Maybe that's where I should have been as a teenager.

• 35:46Josh Horowitz?

  I'm, I'm guessing at the stage door, if you haven't already, you're going to encounter or in your tattoo or two at some point.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  It has happened, yeah.

• 35:55Josh Horowitz?

  That's commit, that's commitment. That's, yeah, that's crazy. I saw.

• 35:59Speaker 02

  What was mad is I had a tattoo of them.

• 36:01Josh Horowitz?

  Of course, yeah, that's.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  You're like, not gonna believe this, but.

• 36:06Josh Horowitz?

  I got one up you. Uh, I saw our mutual, uh, uh, Matt, Matt Smith very recently at a, at a, one of those crazy New York Comic Cons. He is one of the most delightful, uh, humans on the planet, so talented and, um, he, he like, he likes to play a game with me, movie star or actor. Does he play that with you? Is, is Matt Smith a movie star or an actor? What do you think?

• 36:27Speaker 02

  Ah, ah, ah.

• 36:32Speaker 02

  He's an actor. But that's, that, that, that for me is like, that's.

• 36:37Josh Horowitz?

  That's the highest praise.

• 36:38Speaker 02

  That's the highest praise. He's an actor. He's an actor, yeah.

• 36:41Josh Horowitz?

  Was he, was he complaining?

• 36:42Speaker 02

  You called him our mutual Matt Smith.

• 36:45Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 36:46Speaker 02

  I know it depends where you punctuate that, but our mutual Matt Smith is so beautiful as a title.

• 36:52Josh Horowitz?

  That's my fanfic. Was he complaining about the wigs on day one, or did that take a while?

• 36:59Speaker 02

  Didn't take that long, I would say. Yeah, yeah. But look, the man puts up with a lot. I understand his sword is very heavy also.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  I actually can't wait to see him. I know that he's recently around and yeah, I haven't seen him yet.

• 37:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, he just departed my precious New York. Yeah.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly. I'm back. I mean, like, again, another fucking case in point, like, I, well, I love that man and I have, we have a really...

• 37:38Speaker 02

  Do you know what? We take our work really seriously and we have a really, have an amazing time working with him. I've learned such a huge amount from him. I mean, this goes for all of the cast, to be honest.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  I really think that he is able to create space for himself where there isn't any. Like, you know, sometimes shooting, especially on something as big as that show with so many sort of technical elements, so many hours, sometimes that can be quite rigid, can be quite a rigid process. Or but he understands how important play is to our work. And I have learned from him to fight for that space, rather than just to take it, I suppose.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing. And it was such a joy for me to learn, to sort of watch him and learn

• 38:44Speaker 02

  what kind of excites him and what like sort of lights up his appetite and his sort of, his imagination. And it's so nice. Like, he loves, he loves something new. Like, just say anything, say anything on a take that's new and...

• 39:06Josh Horowitz?

  And he likes, and he's just...

• 39:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and where there's some danger in it. Like, I feel like we're able to...

• 39:14Speaker 02

  Well, we both maybe have a have an appetite for for something dangerous. And yeah, it's like very exciting. It's a very exciting thing.

• 39:24Josh Horowitz?

  He also likes a good 90s erotic thriller, a weirder rabbit hole to go down with Matt Smith.

• 39:30Speaker 02

  I also, you know what I recently watched? Jane Campion's In the Cut.

• 39:36Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, yeah, Meg Ryan.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  Lee Bangs. God, that's a good film.

• 39:42Josh Horowitz?

  Mark Ruffalo, 100%. Yeah.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  I'm fucking amazing. Anyway.

• 39:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can go down that rabbit hole.

• 39:57Speaker 04

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• 40:26Speaker 05

  You've got your favorite blanket, a freshly poured drink, and a cold case burning a hole in your streaming queue. You're not just watching true crime, you're running the investigation from the comfort of your couch. Welcome to Murder She Watched, the podcast where we recap, dissect, and slightly overanalyze some of the best and craziest true crime documentaries on our favorite streamers. Did the spouse do it? Why is the shady neighbor wearing leather gloves in July? Why did this guy agree to be interviewed in this documentary? We ask the tough questions that you're often just screaming at your TV. So every week, we break down the twists, red herrings, and absurd documentaries that have kept you up all night.

• 41:10Speaker 05

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• 41:27Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, so it's season two for you. Okay, so you're talking about kind of like coming into your own and kind of owning the space a little bit more. And this was quite a journey. Well, coming off of the events of season one, I know you've talked about this, but but Rhaenyra really dealing with a tremendous amount of grief. Was that kind of the, I don't know, the through line for you, the guiding force of kind of like the evolution of Rhaenyra in season two for you?

• 41:51Speaker 02

  I think it was. Um, I mean, yeah, the start of the series, I think she is in profound grief and grief, like we we sort of know this, it can be so dislocating a force. Um, and and so I suppose in a way that the the journey that she goes on is a really clear one. She has to like, she starts the series as sort of an island, and she has to make a journey back to her family, her peers, her allies in order to reclaim power to sort of, I guess, you know, fight for her late son's name, like, um, it was a really, uh,

• 42:36Speaker 02

  kind of fortuitous, unusual situation for me because I shot the second series, sort of having just had a really significant bereavement. Um, and it's kind of fascinating to find yourself invited to really ruminate on that loss and and on the sort of grieving process that's taking place, but you are sort of simultaneously trying to, um, compartmentalize in some way. You know, it was an interesting experience of, uh, both sort of, uh, some

• 43:18Speaker 02

  in some moments, um, suppressing, uh, helving something and and then and then long periods of being sort of invited to sit with it.

• 43:29Josh Horowitz?

  And I would imagine it gets complicated, too. It's like I would like be in my own head. It's like, am I using this real profound loss for my job? And is that right? I mean, I guess that is the job. That's truly is the job to use your life, use all your experiences. But at the same time, when it gets that important and profound, it must, it's complicated.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  I think it's complicated. I think it's complicated. Um, yeah, like I I I think normally I I my feeling is that um a big part of our, the main part of our job is pretend. I feel that quite sort of profoundly and that the and that the um most like important muscle for an actor is the imaginative muscle and um and that if you are really work, I think we could, I think like I say this for myself, like sometimes think I can be, I have to be strict with myself about kind of uh working my imagination and not

• 44:32Speaker 02

  not being lazy essentially, but the the the payoff if you really do um the sort of imaginative work is that it it it I think you can the resource keeps giving in a way that your own stuff can start to thin or uh you you're you're genuinely working on that, right? You're genuinely working on the sort of categorization of that stuff. But then I suppose the unusual thing with grief is that it feels sort of physiological in some way. Um, you are a different person. You're sort of you are, you are like a stranger to yourself. Like I I was a little dislocated from myself while we were shooting series two and that wasn't

• 45:17Speaker 02

  something I could sort of opt out of particularly.

• 45:21Speaker 02

  Um.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  But, I mean, uh at the same time, sort of how lucky are we to get to uh to get to do a job in which like all of the facets of one life, one's life are sort of taking place simultaneously. I don't know, like you can't not bring it. Yeah. As you know, as much as you um want to create sort of professional boundaries and stuff. Um.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it was just, it was, it was an unusual experience. It's a specific experience for me.

• 45:57Josh Horowitz?

  But by my math, I think it's been probably about a year since you, you all shot the last season. And it'll be presumably still a bit of a break before you get to series three.

• 46:08Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, is it the kind of thing like you don't even think about when you're between seasons? Are you thinking about what you're hoping to explore in the next season? Do you, are you checking in with the showrunners or is it sort of like when they're ready, we'll talk?

• 46:23Speaker 02

  I would say it's a bit of both. I mean, when I, I struggle to, to juggle too many, too many things at once. And so I've obviously been doing these two theatre productions and they've been very totalizing. And so I've had these like holidays with other characters. But I would say that Rhaenyra is, I would say that Rhaenyra comes and visits. That feels sort of inevitable. Like I, in a nice way, I'd never, before House of the Dragon, I'd never played a recurring character before. And there's something specific about having a sort of operating system that's not mine, that's hers, that I know very well, but I can load up if I need to.

• 47:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I really, when we went back to shoot series two and I had like an early wig fitting. And I had a really distinct experience of like, when they put the wig on and it's such a transformative process, right? Wigs are amazing, I think. And, and so suddenly was I her and sort of recognized this, this other person and everything that comes with her. I really felt like she had been in Watford the whole time. A bit like the kid who get, who the parent doesn't pick up. Like I had just been remiss and I hadn't come and collected her.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  Totally. And I was like, so sorry, I'm back, I'm here, blah, blah, blah. And yeah, I, I check in with the showrunners. I mean, and the writer Sarah and. Ryan and I mean, I'm we're lucky because uh it's a really beautiful group of people and so that I count on my friends and I um you know, we check in on a personal basis and you know, occasionally I'll ask so like what what are we thinking?

• 48:15Josh Horowitz?

  Any any training necessary? What do I need to get? I mean, do you do are you putting in are you the type of actor that puts in requests or like put a bug in their ear? Like, what are you hoping to explore in series three for? We know war is coming. War is it's here. So there's that.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  The petition I put in is I want a weapon like it's getting ridiculous. I don't even I don't even mind if it's like a like a little dagger, a short sword. I don't care. I want like, you know, like imagine all the men in the show don't have to worry about where they put their hands because they're constantly holding the pommel of their sword. That obviously sounds like innuendo and you can do that what you will, but like that is true. And and and all the rest of us are going, where do we put our fucking hands? Anyway, next year, one one hand is going to be taken care of. That's what I want. I want to I want a sword. Uh, uh, and and I've been really clear about that with Ryan and um I think that's happening.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  In terms of like, in terms of like, it's what happens next, you know, something that struck me recently is like, actually, in both series, circumstance means that she's quite often a reactive character. She's in like a reactive position. And at the end of series two is maybe the first time when she is in a um sort of superior position politically. Um.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  And so like, I I sort of don't know the answer to the question of what happens when she is in a position of genuine power. Uh, not being sort of undermined left, right and center by her own council. Um, she has the strategic advantage. This is like a really new set of conditions. And I think the thing that we saw towards the end of the second series is a person who for the first time had to make a really distinct choice about her own destiny. Like she sort of, she inherited uh, the heirdom, um, there's lots that comes with that, but when the threat,

• 50:24Speaker 02

  when, when this threat enters that perhaps her father changed his mind on his deathbed about the succession. She's sort of forced to make a choice, right? Because now we're in the world of conjecture and she may think that's unlikely, but if there's any threat that that's true, she has to sort of make a decision about what she wants for the first time. And I think that's where we see her suddenly lean towards um, her faith. Uh, the sort of um, uh, the sort of historical legacy of her family, um. And there's something kind of fanatical about her behavior as she sort of takes up her own name.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  She like ordains herself, I think, in, toward the end of the second series. And that too, I think, is frightening in a way that I really like, because suddenly, yeah, we're, I think we're in the, we're approaching the realm of fanaticism and that sort of feels like where faith starts to beget faith. And um, yeah, that I, I, I think that becomes quite a sort of frightening character. I, I, I want to test the audience's loyalty.

• 51:38Josh Horowitz?

  You've, you've engendered all of this goodwill and now let's, let's, let's test that. Let's see what happens.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I, I, I wonder how unsympathetic she can be. I, I, I mean, I don't know, I'm not writing the thing, but that's, uh, I, I'm excited to test those relationships.

• 51:54Josh Horowitz?

  Well, you can have the dagger, you're gonna be stabbing everybody next season. We know that, so you gotta be.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  Or opening letters, we don't know, uh, you know.

• 52:02Josh Horowitz?

  What a twist.

• 52:03Speaker 02

  A very clean tear.

• 52:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I know the time has flown by, but I do want to mention the talent, which I saw as well, which is a fantastic short film you star in. I'm just curious, like, the space you find for something like this, which I believe you produced as well, is this, is the endeavor like, create something to keep me, you know, keep the juices, the synapses firing? Like, how does this one come about? And does it speak to anything about, I mean, I think back to our early part of the conversation about the collaborative nature on set. This is about kind of a set P A assistant, kind of overstepping. Just talk to me about what the attraction was and how this one came about.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, so straight out of university, I used to co-run a little fringe data company. That was sort of what I was doing. That was sort of how I came into ish being an actor and sort of working a bit. And then I worked with the director of this short film and we kind of co-made all of our work and that was our, that was what we did for, for like three or four, five years. And so this was like the first time in many years that we have worked together, but we've, we're sort of long-term collaborators. Yeah, Thomas May Bailey wrote and directed the, the short, the talent. And I did a lot of sort of dramaturgy

• 53:23Speaker 02

  and its development. And I, yeah, co-produced it with a person called Adam Spence. And I, it's good. It feels like getting the band back together.

• 53:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, now with some more resources, probably, and a little more, yeah.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and look, I mean, this was, this was, this was to some extent, it was an experiment. It was our first rodeo in a new medium. Certainly, it was my first producerial experience, yeah, in a filmic medium as opposed to theater. But it was a total joy. We shot it just before I shot House of the Dragon second series over four days.

• 54:00Speaker 02

  And I think it's, uh, yeah, I think for us, it's the start of like a, a new creative language. And I, I really hope that, uh, oh, I would definitely like to do more producing. I think something that I really notice is like in theatre, uh, the actor gets to deliver the product. Like the, the, the sort of line of communication is a direct one.

• 54:23Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 54:23Speaker 02

  And I found it frustrating that on screen, that's a slightly dislocated process because screen is an editor's medium. Unless you produce the thing, in which case you can see it through all the way to the end. And I, I do find that a more satisfying process. Um, yeah, and so it's been lovely. We're having a shot, um, award season now. Um, it's been amazing actually to discover that something you make kind of, um, you know, uh, what in a, a, a, a, a small scale way, um, can end up with, uh, you know, a sort of global viewership.

• 55:05Speaker 02

  But it's sort of like that, that, the whole kind of process, the whole industry of short films and even film festivals is kind of brand new to me. Um, but yeah, I'm excited. I, we're, we're in the movie, we're in the movie business now.

• 55:19Josh Horowitz?

  Welcome to it. So the lead, the lead actor Tommy is, is trying to ingratiate, uh, himself to is looking for a buddy cop, uh, actor, co-star. Who's your dream buddy cop, co-star in a movie? You're producing your, your feature film.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:34Josh Horowitz?

  Emma D'Arcy and.

• 55:37Speaker 02

  Do you know, I, I, without overthinking this, the person I just wanna say is Keanu Reeves.

• 55:42Josh Horowitz?

  This is the correct answer. Of course it is.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  It's the correct answer and you mustn't second guess it. You know, you just, the, the, the name comes from the gut and you say, and it's.

• 55:53Josh Horowitz?

  The gut. Yeah, it is.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 55:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. What's your, what's your Keanu film of choice? Is it all like, give me, rattle off a couple for me?

• 56:00Speaker 02

  Um, uh, uh, my own private Idaho.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  Like the fucking Matrix, um, John Wick, John fucking Wick. Um, yeah, I, yeah, man, imagine if that was real. Imagine if that was real, a buddy caught me.

• 56:22Josh Horowitz?

  Just invite me to set if it happens. I'm hoping we secret into the universe something today.

• 56:27Speaker 02

  Um. Yeah, yeah.

• 56:29Josh Horowitz?

  All right, we're ending with this, the happy second fuse confused profoundly random questions, Emma. These are a little bit more rapid fire. Are you a dog or a cat person?

• 56:38Speaker 02

  Cat.

• 56:39Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Do you collect anything?

• 56:42Speaker 02

  Uh, uh, postcards.

• 56:47Josh Horowitz?

  What's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 56:51Speaker 02

  A picture of my dad.

• 56:54Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, any actors you've ever been mistaken for? Does it happen?

• 56:59Speaker 02

  Uh, Hunter Schafer.

• 57:02Josh Horowitz?

  What's the worst note a director has ever given you?

• 57:05Speaker 02

  Um, oh, uh, that's a great question. Um, uh, did you mean to do that?

• 57:17Josh Horowitz?

  Passive aggressive much? Hmm. Yeah.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  So good. It's so good. It's so good. And I was like, yeah.

• 57:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, that's called acting. That's my A-list game. That's my good stuff.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  I was really trying. Yeah.

• 57:31Josh Horowitz?

  And finally, in the spirit of happy second fuse, an actor that always makes you happy. You see them on screen. You're a happy person.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  Um, uh, oh my God, so many. Um, uh.

• 57:51Josh Horowitz?

  Be a couple. It's okay. It's not binding. It's not a binding answer.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  No, no, I know. I'm just sort of having that experience of like suddenly having never seen a movie before, you know?

• 58:01Josh Horowitz?

  Name three movies.

• 58:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know the news. Um, uh, yeah. Um, um, no, okay. An actor who always makes me happy. Um.

• 58:16Speaker 02

  Or Karen Hines.

• 58:18Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, love it. Good answer. A movie that makes you sad?

• 58:23Speaker 02

  A movie that makes me sad. Oh, my God. Artificial Intelligence.

• 58:27Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, it's such a good one. The last 20 minutes of that one. Oh, God. Oh, and when when she leaves him behind in the car? Come on, Emma.

• 58:34Speaker 02

  You're on the bottom of the sea for like a million years.

• 58:39Josh Horowitz?

  What a film. Oh, and a food that makes you confused. You don't get it.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  Um, oh, boring, but coriander. I have the gene, so I literally don't get it.

• 58:50Josh Horowitz?

  It's a genetic thing. Okay, got it. Um, this has been such a delight. I don't know why you've been avoiding the podcast world, Emma. You are your A plus podcast guest. Truly, this was such a delight. It flew by. Congratulations. You just kill it in this this series, and I'm so excited. I hope you come to New York to do some theater at some point selfishly. Uh, let's make that happen. Good, good.

• 59:14Josh Horowitz?

  Excellent. Excellent. Well, hopefully, the first of many conversations to come. And congratulations on the short. Check that out. How can can people check it out yet? Or is it we're still kind of figuring out how the world at large conceives?

• 59:23Speaker 02

  It really depends where in the world you are. So without sort of giving a list of terms and conditions. It's probably best to say that it's, you know, roaming.

• 59:34Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, yeah. Search search Emma D'Arcy, the talent, and hopefully you'll find it soon. And seriously, thank you again for the time. I really appreciate the time and the trust today. Thank you.

• 59:43Speaker 02

  Oh, no, right back at you. It's so nice to speak to you. Have a lovely day.

• 59:50Speaker 03

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

• 1:00:10Speaker 06

  It's the feeling of escapism, the call of glory that drives us to build fantastic worlds, yet some grow darker than others.

• 1:00:17Speaker 07

  Dark Dice is the improvised horror podcast diving into the depths of madness and the corrupt divine in the fantasy realm of terror. Wayward souls who dare risk their characters at our table bring our stories to crawling life.

• 1:00:28Speaker 06

  Enhanced with award winning soundscapes and music, Dark Dice mixes the role of the dice with the drive to survive. So join us and hear the horrors of Dark Dice wherever you listen to podcasts.