Jay Duplass & Michael Strassner On The Art of Creative Rebellion

Jay Duplass is an award-winning filmmaker, actor, and co-architect of the mumblecore movement. Michael Strassner is a comedian, actor, and the protagonist of Jay's new film "The Baltimorons." This conversation explores Jay's first solo directing effort in 14 years, Michael's journey from rock bottom to seven years of sobriety, and how they created a transcendent film for less than the cost of an LA permit. We discuss creative authenticity versus Hollywood cynicism, why early sobriety rarely gets screen time, and how serving someone else's story might save your own. In the process, we dissect how cultural mythology is built through storytelling and why flawed humans make better protagonists than superheroes. These two are creating equipment for living. What unfolds is a love letter to persistence. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Seed: Use code RICHROLL25 for 25% OFF your first order 👉https://www.seed.com/RichRoll25 Squarespace: Use code RichRoll to save 10% off your first order of a website or domain 👉https://www.squarespace.com/RichRoll Bon Charge Get 15% OFF all my favorite wellness products w/ code RICHROLL 👉https://www.boncharge.com Roka: Unlock 20% OFF your order with code RICHROLL 👉https://www. ROKA.com/RICHROLL The Sprouting Company: Get 10% off and a free copy of "The Sprout Book" with code RICHROLL 👉https://www.thesproutingcompany.com/pages/richroll On: High-performance shoes & apparel crafted for comfort and style 👉https://www.on.com/richroll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us@voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

  Eating well rarely falls apart because of one big failure. It's the daily question that wears you down. Like, what am I actually gonna make tonight? What's in the fridge? And it's exactly why we built the Plant Power Meal Planner. It's a personalized, plant-based meal planning program that matches you with recipes based on your taste, your allergies, your cooking skills, and how much time you actually have. You build, through this program, a balanced, nutrient-dense plan for your entire household in a few minutes. Then it generates a grocery list for you with one click that plugs right into our delivery partners. All the recipes in the program are built by dietitians with culinary training. Plus, you get your own food coach to help you problem-solve along the way.

• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  The movie is set during six months of sobriety, and that's one thing that Michael talked about a lot, is how there aren't a lot of movies about early sobriety. There's movies about what it takes to get sober, but this movie really is about being early sober and still being an alcoholic and really not knowing how to do it. And, you know, there were so many poignant moments about that when Michael was telling me his personal story that made me want to tell this story. And, you know, one of them was, you know, his desperate fear of like, never being funny again. That was your biggest fear in terms of getting sober, is like, being funny is everything that you were at the time and what you felt like you had to offer the world.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  And if you are sober and you can't do that, obviously you made the decision that it wasn't worth living in that moment.

• 2:07Speaker 02

  I was downstairs in my basement, and my best thinking was, I don't think I want to be here anymore, you know? So I tried to hang myself, and luckily the belt broke. And the next day was the first day I actually asked for help.

• 2:29Rich Roll?

  So there was a brief chapter of my life, this period of time in which I was beginning to kind of give my curiosity wider berth to explore new projects and do interesting and different types of creative things, while also looking for, you know, kind of ways out of my lawyer career, but also before the full-blown existential crisis meets hell scare incident that, you know, basically precipitated the chapter that I'm most well-known for, which was my period of lifestyle upheaval and then ultra-endurance competition. But the phase I'm talking about right now is a phase of my life that I actually don't think I've talked about very much.

• 3:11Rich Roll?

  It all went down when I was working as an entertainment lawyer, no longer in the big, giant law firms, but in a small firm that I had formed with a couple of friends. At the time, I was working with writers and producers in the then, I think, very exciting independent film space. And I actually had a fair amount of fun doing this, probably the most fun that you could have as a lawyer, at least in my opinion. I have very fond memories of attending the Sundance Film Festival and being energized by supporting and just by being around young artists, young filmmakers, who were so devoted to realizing their dreams. And there was something very inspirational about that.

• 3:54Rich Roll?

  I have this one memory that really stands out among many great memories attending the Sundance Film Festival, and it was for the premiere of a film that was called Love Liza. And on one side of me, sitting in the audience, was my friend Gordy, who had written that movie and would go on to win the Waldo Salt Screenwriting Award that year at Sundance for the Best Screenplay. And sitting on the other side of me was Gordo's brother, Phil, as in Philip Seymour Hoffman. And then next to him was their mother, Marilyn, who was a judge in Rochester at the time and somebody I had become friends with. And I guess I'm sharing that

• 4:36Rich Roll?

  Because this was the kind of experience I realized that, you know, kind of a peak experience that no corporate law firm was ever going to be able to deliver to me. And another reason why it was a somewhat enjoyable period of time for me was because it sated the appetite of my inner shadow artist. Because I think what I really wanted to do back then was what my clients were doing, which was write and direct, low-budget, independent movies. But that was too risky, far too scary. Whereas being just in the proximity of other people that were doing it felt fun but safe. You know, because it gives this illusion of being part of something that you're actually kind of not. Anyway, this fascination with film that I had wasn't exactly a new idea.

• 5:20Rich Roll?

  I'd been a P A on sets when I lived in New York City for a couple of years at the beginning of the 90s. I attended NYU for a filmmaking intensive one summer. But steeping myself in it as a lawyer began inching me towards stepping more into the art form itself. So I did what you do when you live in L.A. as a requirement, which is to begin writing a screenplay. So that's what I did in collaboration with my wife Julie, later with my friend Drew. On the script that I would truncate into something that in 2003 I could realize as a short film that I was capable of directing. That film was called Down Dog, which was like this 15-minute, very broad satire

• 6:03Rich Roll?

  on the very ripe-to-be-made-fun-of-yoga scene in L.A. at that time. And the film's fine, I guess. It's not like I've gone back and watched it. Parts of it, I suppose, might hold up. But I will say that there was a very brief moment in time back then when it, this script, the feature version of it, caught the eye of Matthew McConaughey's then-production company called J.K. Levin. And it appeared for like a millisecond like maybe this project would turn into a movie that would get made with Double M in the starring role. Of course, that all quickly ended. That script ended back up in a drawer and I would get interested in other things, things that would eventually lead me here. Anyway, I bring all this up.

• 6:47Rich Roll?

  Only because this little film that I made, Down Dog, ended up playing a bunch of film festivals. It even won an award here and there. And one of those festivals was the Bend Film Festival in 2005. And at that festival, the feature that everyone was talking about was this film called The Puffy Chair. It was a super low-budget, lo-fi indie production by first-time writer-directors Jay and Mark Duplass, who also happened to be brothers. I made a point to see it, and I knew immediately that the guys behind it were, unlike me, very much the real deal. Jay was not there in person. He was with the Puffy Chair film at another festival that weekend.

• 7:31Rich Roll?

  But Mark was, and I got a chance to meet him, got to hang out with him a little bit. And so partly because of that, I've always felt emotionally invested in these brothers, maybe more than I should. And watching them succeed, seeing them rise to such a high level in the crazy business that is the movie industry, has been a real joy for me. Over the years, these two have made tons of great stuff. But these days, they're off doing separate things, part of this sort of conscious uncoupling of sorts, in which Mark has gone on to become basically a legitimate movie star. Jay, in his own right, a producer and executive producer on like a zillion television and other projects out there.

• 8:15Rich Roll?

  He started acting for the first time. You should check him out in season two of HBO's Industry, which is a show where he plays a hedge fund guy. He does a great job. In addition to that show just being next level, his performance is very unique and memorable. But the thing that Jay had not done is direct a film all on his own. It was this hole in his experience that he began to fill when he came across this improv guy, Michael Strassner, by way of Michael's short comedic videos on social media. And Michael's also this guy who happens to have this pretty extraordinary addiction and recovery story. These two connected, Jay and Michael, they concocted a plan to work together and came up with a creative idea.

• 8:57Rich Roll?

  Idea for a movie that they ended up co-writing for Strassner to star in and for Jay to finally solo direct. The culmination of this collaboration is The Baltimoreons, which is this really great heartfelt little indie that could with all the elements that bring up all of my Sundance nostalgia. And a film that is getting not only unanimous raise, but also what is almost impossible for a tiny feature in 2025, which is a theatrical release, meaning you can and should see it immediately in theaters. So this one is a little bit of everything. It's an old school, what it was like, what happened and what it's like now miracle of a sobriety story.

• 9:40Rich Roll?

  It's an artist origin story. It's a state of the union on filmmaking and television in the streaming area. It's about venturing, creative risk, and it's about finding your voice along with all the kind of hows and whys of cultivating and sharing it. This one plays a little bit like a James Fry Craig Mod mashup along with a few other recent guests that fall squarely into the old school category, which, as I've been talking about, is really the direction that I'm interested in moving the show more towards. More so than I have in recent years at least, in part because I'm a little fatigued, I'm a little bit bored by

• 10:20Rich Roll?

  the recent overemphasis of podcasting on things like protocols for self-optimization. This reverse engineering of podcasts that are turning into conversations that are basically predetermined. And I'm not crazy about that. And I really want to intentionally fall back in love with what led me to fall in love with this thing so long ago, which is just honest and open-ended conversations, informed by real-life stories, earnest stories that are lifted from real-life lived experience. Because to me, I mean, that's the shit, man. And I actually think that this is what we're missing.

• 11:05Rich Roll?

  And right now, especially what I think we need more of, or at least I know that I do, because it leads to what we happen to be lacking, in my opinion, as a culture right now, which is more empathy and more understanding. So that's what we're going to do today. And this is what I'm going to focus on more going forward. So if you're into that, great. If you're not, that's awesome, too. There's lots of other stuff out there for you. Have at it. But here, I'm gonna do my best to keep it true, to be true to what moves me, true to what I think is important when it comes to getting our head around the human condition. And I think this conversation is exactly that. So with that, this is me,

• 11:48Rich Roll?

  Jay Duplass, and Michael Strasser. So have at it.

• 11:54Rich Roll?

  Well, this is a big moment for both of you guys. It's your first solo directing effort. And, you know, Michael, obviously, this is like a launchpad for you. So that's, that's gotta be like, you know, like, very cool, but possibly deranging also, you know, keep yourself grounded. But I, I think, Jay, like, as an outsider looking in on your career, like, you and your brother, you've gone off and you've, you know, flexed in all these different areas, and you've got your hands in, you know, so many different projects. But it feels like your compass is pretty well calibrated, like, there is a pretty solid understanding of like, this is what I do, or these are the areas in which

• 12:36Rich Roll?

  I excel. And all of the products feel on some level of a piece with each other, even if you're, you know, stretching over here or over there. And I believe there is a narrative around the Baltimoreons that this is sort of a return to your roots. But I don't necessarily see it that way. I just feel like it's an extension of what you've always been doing. There's a purity to it, perhaps, that makes it unique and special. But like many people, like everyone, like, my introduction to you and your brother was the puppy chair. And I actually, I met your brother in 2005 at the Bend Film Festival, when he was there

• 13:17Rich Roll?

  with the, with the movie. Because I had written and directed a short film that was also screening at that, at that festival called Down Dog. It was like this parody of the LA yoga scene. That's great. And, and I kind of like palled around with, with your brother a little bit, and got to know him. And I, I just remember, when I saw that film, I was like, oh, like, These guys are for real. Like, this is a, this is a real movie. Like, they're going places. And your brother at that time, you know, he was telling me like, oh, they were, you guys were getting writing assignments already and stuff like that. Like, your, the foundation of your career was already kind of taking place at that time. And so that kind of like gave me an emotional connection to like

• 13:58Rich Roll?

  the career that the two of you have been having. But this movie now, like, I was living in New York when Slacker came out and, you know, it was all Hal Hartley and El Mariachi and, and, you know, then it was Sex, Lies and Videotape and, and Blue Velvet, these movies that just really changed, like, my young mind around like what a movie could be. And there was so much hope and like earnestness and excitement and possibility during that period of time. And I would go to Sundance every year and it was just like so exciting to go to these premieres and see these filmmakers get up on stage and just, you know, their dream had come true. You know, it was just very special.

• 14:43Rich Roll?

  And this movie, The Baltimoreons, very much feels like a movie out of time. Like, it is a movie from that era that shares that DNA. So was that like part of the, you know, the, the thinking process? Like, it's anachronistic that this movie, the reviews are incredible. Everybody's very excited about it. And it's actually getting a theatrical release? Like, a movie like this doesn't go into the theaters anymore. Like, it is like out of time. Like, it's this bizarre unicorn.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  I mean, most, most independent films don't get a theatrical nowadays, much less one with no movie stars. I mean, Michael is a movie star. People just don't know it yet. But yeah.

• 15:22Rich Roll?

  Three months from now, possibly a movie.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Possibly, very possibly.

• 15:26Rich Roll?

  Keeping standards low, though.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. It is, um, it is very unusual to have this kind of success with a tiny little movie. And I did return to my roots. Um, you know, I was coming off of a long period of You know, big things in my life happening and it might not be perceptible to other people in the public because we do produce a lot of things and we support people and we're always involved in helping people make things, TV shows, movies, whatever it may be. But, you know, over the last seven or eight years, I've essentially gone through like a loving breakup with my brother about us making art, you know, in a forced march, almost immigrant

• 16:09Speaker 01

  style way, you know, where we've come to realize that like, you know, I actually still want to be the Coen Brothers on some level. I'm just going to do it on my own. I want to be a writer-director. My brother's more runs a tiny little studio. Our company is basically a small studio. So it's been like a long journey, but ultimately what led me to Michael and to this project is, you know, I was going through that breakup, trying to figure out how I was going to make movies again. We had the pandemic, which kind of destroyed independent films because a COVID budget on an independent film is more expensive than the independent film. You need to do the protocols, basically. And then we had

• 16:52Speaker 01

  our strikes and towards the end of the strikes, I, I realized, you know, I had not directed a movie in 14 years. I've been supporting everybody else in making their stuff. And I just got to the point where I was like, I need to make a movie come hell or high water, which was exactly the place I was at when we made The Puffy Chair, which is, you know, at that time I was like, I gotta, I gotta do it, you know, because that's the thing about Hollywood, which you know well, which you know well, which is like, it's very easy to confuse talking about making movies with making movies. They are

• 17:32Speaker 01

  not the same thing. And, and, you know, my brother and I, over time, we really forced ourselves into, you know, an almost compulsive creativity because, and we even had a philosophy around it, which was just for me and him, but it started coming out. And now it's like a, I guess it's like an independent film mantra, which is make movies, not meetings. Because even when you get involved in Hollywood, they just want to talk about stuff. And, and our philosophy, even when we have a meeting with a studio would be like,

• 18:06Speaker 01

  We love to make this movie with you. We are making this movie on August 15th. If you would like to be a part of it, that would be fantastic because we don't want to have to pay for it with the measly $17,000 we can scrounge together. But we are making it, you know, and Hollywood being essentially a junior high dating scene, the less you need them, the more they want you.

• 18:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You know what I mean? Instead of be, you know, being on your knees and begging and being

• 18:34Speaker 01

  100%.

• 18:34Rich Roll?

  Being in this, you know, weak place from which to negotiate, just being like, we're doing it. Like, do you want to get on the bus or not? Like, we're cool, but yeah.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:43Rich Roll?

  That's, that's a, that's a power move.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  It is. It was our own little weird power move. And so I kind of returned to that place and I also, you know, I knew I was going to be, you know, I had made, I hadn't made a movie in 14 years and Hollywood is, what have you done lately? And so I just thought to myself, I was like, I need to return into the place of the puffy chair where I can just tell a true story and use the people who are living it. And I was just thinking about my life and I had gotten to know Michael a little bit.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Via Instagram?

• 19:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How did you guys, how did you guys meet?

• 19:19Speaker 02

  We, so I was putting up like dumb videos on Instagram. They weren't dumb. They were very smart and sophisticated, but it was Buffalo Bill talking to his Alexa.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  Buffalo Bill, the mass murderer.

• 19:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you got a lot of, yeah, a lot of videos up there.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 19:35Rich Roll?

  You know, playing characters and stuff.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  So I did this one, and also I would do Brene Brown a bunch because I was such a Brene Brown fan. And I would play, like, I would just be talking about like random stuff that she would be like yelling at her husband basically about. It's like, you know, Steve, you know what I really did? I went to, um, I got ice cream the other day. You know what ice cream stands for? I courageously encourage courage redeeming myself of shame. And I just saw Jay follow me and I was like, holy shit. Like my hero follows me. Someone I've looked up to for years. I am going like, it was crazy. I was just like, you know? And I had a short film at the time that I was looking for an actress for. And I was like, you know what? This guy helps out a lot of people. Why not me? And I just sent him a DM.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  And I was like, hey, Jay, I'm a huge fan of yours, all this stuff that I listed. I'm trying to shoot this short film. If you could help, great. If not, it just means the world that you read this. That was in September of 2021. He got back to me in February of 2022. And he was like, dude, I don't check Instagram. I don't know how it works. I don't know how it works. I know people think I'm savvy. I'm old and I don't know how social media works. Yeah, to the point now where like, we'll be together and he's like, can you help me post this? Like, I'm trying to make sure it's not cropped out. And I was like, I got you. Come here. And he messaged me back and he was like, send me the script. I sent him the script and he was like, come over to my house. And I was like, I was doing Buffalo Bill videos and you want me to come over to your house where your kids live?

• 21:08Speaker 02

  Okay, sure. And we just have this like great lunch. He helps me with the short. I shoot it, I edit it, I direct it, and then I come back. And this is like the stuff that like is unheard of in Hollywood, in my opinion. He took time out of his day to help me. And then we came back for the edit and he like stopped and he was like, okay, like this is where you cut here. This is where you, and he just like showed me how to do it. And God, I'm getting emotional this early. We're gonna cry. Yeah. And it was just the first person that really took time with me, you know? And it was, then I took him out to lunch to thank him in December of 2022.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  And I gave him a Sidney Pollack picture of Tootsie because he said it was one of his favorite movies. And I told him a little bit about my story, how I got sober. And after that lunch, I put on my manifestations, shoot a movie with Jay Duplass, number two. Number one's always stay sober every year. And he calls me up in April and he's like, hey, man, I want to make a movie and I want you to be the star of it. You want to do it? And I was like, yeah, that sounds awesome.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  And he was like-

• 22:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I would have, I would have thought that you had been, you know, putting together a script and that on the heels of, you know, like Jay sort of opening his door to you, that that would lead to you then coming to him with a script.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  No.

• 22:37Rich Roll?

  And that's not the way it happened.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  No, it was like, you know, I, then I came over to his house and the car that I parked out front here, so it doesn't have AC, and I showed up to his house shirtless and-

• 22:48Speaker 01

  I happened to be looking out of the window and I see this large bear of a man getting out of his tiny little Jetta without a shirt on and using his shirt to fan himself dry.

• 22:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's like some Jack Black shirt or something.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  Truly, I was just like, this guy is a living movie right here. I'm like, first of all, I was like, that's going in the movie for sure.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, we shot in December though, so that's-

• 23:10Speaker 01

  We shot in December in Baltimore. That was the one thing we couldn't pull off.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, but literally I'm like, I see him out of the corner of my eye and I'm sure as I'm like, "Hey Jay, how are you? Just give me a minute, you know, just need to get my back dry." And then we just kinda like, I would just kinda tell him like stories and we kinda, and then also stories and then locations that we had in Baltimore for free, you know, that we kind of backed this movie in together.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, we kind of, same as Puffy Chair. At the time, that was a movie about my brother and his girlfriend and my brother trying to make it as a musician and, you know, we had a touring band. We had this tiny town in Maine that Katie was from and, you know, we had a bunch of desperate people and by a bunch, I mean seven. Seven desperate people like, you know, my brother, myself, our actors, our girlfriends, now our wives, you know. So it was the similar philosophy, which is, you know, Michael had really opened his heart to me and told me what he'd been through. I mean, he already established himself as a hilarious person, but then I learned his, you know, his origin story essentially of becoming sober. And it just inspired me and, you know, I was like, I think this is it.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  And, you know, he's, Michael's originally from Baltimore and one of his best friends, David Bonnet, was there and was looking for work. He had been Paul Rubin's assistant and Paul Rubin's had just died and he was looking for work and had returned to Baltimore from LA. And, and we were just like, I think we can create a movie in Baltimore that's essentially-

• 24:42Speaker 01

  You know, semi autobiographical and it will be, you know, as authentic as a movie could possibly be because ultimately in the end, I'm try, I wanna, look, we're in the age of TikTok and social media and all this stuff, but like, you and I grew up watching movies. That was a dominant art form. It was the dominant art form.

• 25:02Rich Roll?

  I do too.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  You do, you do.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  I mean, I would go to the movies by myself and sit there and just like escape for an hour. It was like that and drugs and alcohol is what I loved.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  You know?

• 25:14Speaker 01

  But I, I mean, I am always focused on like, you know, a couple of things, which is like, what, what can I give people that, that they need, you know, that people are craving? And also, how can I platform beautiful, incredible people who are not being seen and who are not being witnessed and who are inspiring to me and can, you know, lift people up and, and, and give them a great time in a movie theater. And so Michael was it, you know, and, and he, and I knew inherently that he was scrappy enough to go to Baltimore with me and make a movie on the streets of Baltimore in the middle of the night in freezing, freezing cold weather for no money and just like,

• 25:59Speaker 01

  make a piece of art and just hope that, you know, hope and dream that, you know, it would be seen by people one day and celebrated by people.

• 26:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's like a couple of things that stand out for me in what you just shared. The first thing is like, you're approaching it from an audience member and, and from a perspective of like, how can I serve the audience? Like, you know, how can I help uplift this guy who I feel like needs to be seen more? And like, how can I serve the audience rather than like, how can I look good as a director? Or how can I, you know, it's a service minded approach, right? Which is obviously like, you know, it's a way of being in relationship with the world. That's a very, that's a very, you know, kind of AA sensibility. But there's this earnestness in the film, you know, which is rare. Like it's sort of, there's a sweetness to it, you know? There's no, it's not cynical like our time, you know?

• 26:51Rich Roll?

  There is a, it's, it's, it's uplifting and heartfelt and vulnerable and, you know, this, these characters are kind of just laying it all out there, unapologetically, you know? And there's a real, there's real beauty in that and you just don't see movies like that anymore. And especially like low budget, independent films. Like it's just, you know, it's.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  It did like take me back, you know, decades to when these were the kind of movies that were coming out all the time.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's been the most incredible thing that we've experienced in terms of audience reaction. I mean, we've only been to film festivals so far and we've, we've won an inordinate amount of audience awards. I've never had this experience before, even with giant, you know, not giant movies, but many of the larger movies that I've made. And the, that comment has kept coming back to us is, this is actually the movie I want to see on a Saturday night with my partner or with my friends. Like, this is the movie I want, this is the movie that will get me back into the movie theater.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  And also like the, people have come up to me and like said, I want to live in a world where this movie exists. And like, that's been like the sweetest compliment to me.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  I definitely do.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  And And the wild part is that, you know, everyone who came to work on this movie, it's really a self fulfilling prophecy in a way because when you, when you can only pay people the bare minimum, they only will be there unless they want to be there, unless they really care and need to be there spiritually. So we had 15 people on the ground in Baltimore who were just like crying with us every day as we were shooting these scenes and laughing with us every day and just having the time of our lives. Like, the experience of making the movie together has, has been, was for us the way that I think the audience is experiencing the movie. And that's been very refreshing because it is so easy to look out into the

• 28:48Speaker 01

  world and get discouraged. But like, it, you know, it's just a reminder that it's on us to create the beauty and the culture and the joy and the love that we want to experience every day. Like, we are the manifestors of our own destiny. And, you know, at the time, you know, I mean, it's a very cheap movie, but movies still cost money. And, you know, the philosophy behind it was kind of like, we're gonna lose money on this movie. You know what I mean?

• 29:22Speaker 02

  Was it like, maybe we'll put it up on YouTube or something?

• 29:25Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. I mean, it was like

• 29:26Speaker 02

  Jay has told me several times, like, we're not gonna make money on this.

• 29:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but you're probably like, I don't care. I'll pay you.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Truly. I was like, how much do you need from me? Like, I got a little bit in the savings, you know?

• 29:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that point of like, take responsibility for creating the beauty you want to see in the world is is similar to that speech that your brother gave at South by Southwest about like, no one's coming to save you.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, the cavalry isn't coming.

• 29:54Rich Roll?

  It's a it's an industry in which there's a lot of gatekeepers and you were just mentioning, like, yeah, you got to raise money, but like, that power move of saying like, we're doing this no matter what speaks to that idea that we're not waiting for permission from any of these people. And yes, the the tools that are available now democratize like access to this kind of storytelling, it still costs money, you know?

• 30:20Speaker 01

  It still costs money, but it is so much cheaper.

• 30:23Rich Roll?

  And I think there was once, you know, just this grand romance about like making a studio film or whatever, being anointed by the powerful people in Hollywood who are, you know, kind of pulling you out of the crowd and saying, this is the next guy.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:37Rich Roll?

  That feels like it's gone, which which kind of opens it up to everybody to just like, go out and make shit.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, making stuff is it's the most fun thing to do and it does create your own reality. And it is exactly what you're saying that, I mean, most of the people that I know, I mean, look, we're considered an overnight success, but by the time I had made The Puffy Chair, I was 31 years old. I had made three failed features. I had made a bunch of shitty short films. I had finally made a couple of short films that had some traction. So Puffy Chair was the last ditch effort for me. I mean, it was like, I was, you know, had just turned 30. I was like, I can't do this to myself anymore. I can't drag myself

• 31:30Speaker 01

  through this torture and my family. People were worried about me, you know? But ultimately,

• 31:37Speaker 01

  I loved making movies, you know, that's what I loved doing and I just kept doing it. And everyone that I know that is successful, it's never an overnight success story. It's attrition, it's, it's, you know, forging forward when all the signs even tell you, you shouldn't be successful. This isn't gonna work, you know? I mean, it's similar to what you created with your podcast. It's like, you know, following people around and going into their hotel rooms with little cameras that you barely knew how to work at the time, you know? Because ultimately, your heart was in the right place and you knew that there were stories to tell that needed to get out there.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  That's what I've learned over and over again. It's weird that I've been doing this for like 30 years. I mean, I've only been successful for 20 of them, but the, the, it's funny because I feel like the, the answer to every question at a film festival is make an undeniably great film, you know? Cause everyone wants to, how do I get this? How do I get that? You know, how are we gonna get a tiny movie distributed with no stars at a time when people are saying movies are dead, you know? Like, and independent films are off, off Broadway now, you know? And the answer is, I don't care. I love this guy, he has a story to tell.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  I, we'll talk about Liz a little bit, but the, his co-star Liz Larson, I fell in love with her, I learned about her personal story and incorporated that. And I was like, this is a story that I just wanna tell and I just have to trust that it's gonna go into the world. And, you know, contrary to what everyone was predicting, we are actually gonna make money on this movie and we're gonna release it theatrically in movie theaters this fall. And it's, it's totally insane. It's, it's, you know,

• 33:34Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm sitting here talking like I created this or believe in this philosophy. But I also doubted. I mean, I told Michael, I was like, we need to be prepared.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  This is not gonna sell.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  To make no money. We need to be prepared to maybe have trouble at festivals. We, we need to be prepared for all these things. We just need to know that like, we want to tell this story is very, very important to us and we're gonna do this and that's gonna be enough. And then we're gonna see where it goes.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  And the coolest thing was within 24 hours of us premiering at South By, I was walking down the street with Jay and he got a text and it was like, we got our first.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Like offer, distribution. And that ended up being the one.

• 34:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, IFC.

• 34:22Rich Roll?

  Well, a great story, well told, is the most powerful thing in the world. And can transcend all obstacles ultimately.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:31Rich Roll?

  And just believing in that and doubling down on that is like inspirational. But Michael, like you mentioned, okay, the, the story is semi-autobiographical. So like, we gotta, we gotta do a little bit of, uh,

• 34:44Speaker 01

  We gotta go deep.

• 34:45Rich Roll?

  What happened and what it's like now.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 34:47Rich Roll?

  Your story is, is, is pretty wild.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, I grew up in Baltimore, Maryland, and everyone was always like, ooh, The Wire. I think it's more like Hairspray, you know? Not more light and fun. But, you know, grew up with my mom, my dad, two sisters. And then, uh, my parents got divorced when I was eight. And, uh, then my neighbors became my stepfamily. So we kinda had this merger family and, um, you know, like, I just didn't like being like the talk of Towson. Like, you know, our small, like, we were kinda like, everyone was talking about the Strassners and all this stuff. And also I think I put a lot of that on me, like, you know, I think just like so many other alcoholics and addicts.

• 35:33Rich Roll?

  There was, meaning like, there's, there's some drama coming out of that house.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, you know, like it, it all.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  It all was like, it was a little bit of a tough, you know, upbringing and then, but when I found, ironically enough, I smoked for the first time when I was 10. Little weed outside of CVS. Congratulations. Yeah, it was awesome. It was actually not even behind CVS. We were at the front door to the right. So just two 10-year-olds smoking pot out of an apple in Baltimore, which was really great. And then, the funny thing is, the next day, I went over to my friend's house and I was like, "We can smoke any kind of weed." Because I'm 10 years old, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. And we go to the pantry and we get dill weed out. And we roll that up in computer paper and we smoke that. And we did not get high, but we like hurt our throats and Ms. Pontier came home and she's like,

• 36:25Speaker 02

  "Why does it smell like matches in here? What have you been lighting?" But my whole point is, once I did it, I couldn't wait to do it again. And the same thing happened with alcohol, you know? And then ironically enough, when I was 12, I took five shots, went to a, um, party and then threw up everywhere. That night, my mom picked me up and went to the hospital, got my stomach pumped. At 12. At 12. And, uh, That's for real. Yeah. And I knew that like I didn't feel well, but I couldn't wait to do it again. And you know, it was just more of that. And also, like, the thing that I also realized was, I loved drinking and doing drugs, but I also made, I loved making my mom laugh. That was like the two things, you know?

• 37:08Speaker 02

  And my heroes were like Robin Williams, Chris Farley,

• 37:13Speaker 02

  you know, Bill Murray, were all people I looked up to. There's definitely some Bill Murray in this character. Oh yeah, for sure. And there's some Farley, you know? Physicality-wise, like, I love that this movie has physical comedy because I feel like I never see that anymore.

• 37:29Speaker 02

  And done like actually like not. Like lowbrow, you know, but you know, and then, but the thing is like, growing up in Baltimore, there was really never any talk about like, I think now it's more conversational, but like, you know, I got in a hit and run when I was 19 because I reached down for a Crunchwrap Supreme at a red light and I hit a fire hydrant and then two parked cars. And then I got out on foot and called my mom and I was like, Mom, you gotta come get me. And she's like, Michael, you have the car. And I was like, well, I know where it's parked.

• 38:01Speaker 02

  And then I came back and got arrested and everything and my best thinking was, I guess I should join a fraternity now, you know, the opposite of like, maybe this guy's got a problem. Maybe this guy needs some help, maybe. Let's institutionalize this. Yes, exactly. Absolutely. But like, you know, consequences really didn't happen for me, you know, I moved out to LA and like. To be a comedian, to be an actor. Yeah, to be an actor and to follow in like the footsteps of my heroes, you know, I wanted to be on SNL so bad, like that was all I ever wanted, you know, and I got that opportunity. I, back in 2017, I went to New York and tested twice. The second time I tested, I was like, okay, well, I guess I'll be living here.

• 38:46Speaker 02

  Like this is gonna be great, not sober at the time. And when I came back, I was just like, super depressed and, you know, the way the movie starts is, uh, I don't, should we give it away or? Yeah, you can tell the movie starts. The way the movie starts is a failed suicide attempt and, you know, I was downstairs in my basement and my best thinking was, uh, I don't think I want to be here anymore, you know, so. On the heels of, of not getting the SNL. Not getting the SNL, things just not going my way or whatever type of story I had to tell myself. And I tried to hang myself and luckily the belt broke.

• 39:30Speaker 02

  And the next day was the first day I actually asked for help and, you know, like.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  I just look back on that and it's like crazy to me that like it could have went another way and I might not have been here. Astronomical odds that you are here. Yeah, exactly.

• 39:50Rich Roll?

  The other piece that is similar to the story in the movie is is kind of getting booted out of your improv group, right? Like was it the Groundlings or?

• 40:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:02Rich Roll?

  Or Upright Citizens or what?

• 40:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, so basically what happened was I was in the Sunday Company there and they told me to take a leave of absence and you'll be welcomed back with open arms and. So they wanted you to get sober? Yeah, they wanted me to get sober and so I did that and it was like the first time that like consequences were like there, you know? And when they said that like it's the best thing ever happened to me because I got sober and I haven't had a drink since, you know?

• 40:31Rich Roll?

  Did you go to treatment or did you just like show up?

• 40:35Speaker 02

  I didn't have insurance.

• 40:36Rich Roll?

  Go to a meeting or how did that? How did that?

• 40:38Speaker 02

  Went to a meeting. This guy met me at a Starbucks and he like literally, I didn't understand why he was meeting me. I didn't understand like why he was taking time out of his day.

• 40:50Rich Roll?

  What's the angle?

• 40:51Speaker 02

  What's the angle here? Yeah. And he was like, you know, someday you're gonna do it for somebody else. And he took me to my first meeting on a Monday morning and ironically enough, it was a like I was driving Uber for one of my odd jobs out here. I was driving Uber and I picked up somebody at like 7:00 AM in the morning one time, like two years before this and I was like, where are you headed? And she's like, I'm just going to like this AA because I'm so nosey. I'm going to this AA meeting and I was like, oh, I didn't know they do that that early. That's awesome. Congrats. You know, I hope you figure it out. Meanwhile, you're drunk driving her probably. Exactly. And ironically enough, that's the first meeting I walked in.

• 41:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it was like, did you clock it? Like you remembered like, oh, I remember I dropped somebody off here. So at least I'd know where that one is.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, you know, like I just.

• 41:43Speaker 02

  I kinda like, I didn't wanna be there, you know? I did not wanna be sober. I did not want, like, cause I was all, I was also like so afraid of what life looked like without this thing that I had for so long.

• 41:54Rich Roll?

  Well, that's a huge theme that I wanna like, put a pin in that, cause I wanna, I wanna dig into that a little bit more deeply. But before we do that, like, I suspect that there is this, you know, you, you mentioned Farley, right? So you're, if you're trying to like, uh, you know, mimic your heroes, you know? It's sort of that rock star thing. It's like, well, this is the lifestyle, man. I'm gonna go to LA and it's like, you're trying to live the, the like, you know, swingers, the movie lifestyle. Like, you gotta be at these clubs and you gotta, you know, show up, post up and be the guy, be the center of attention and all that kind of stuff that is like fueling your desire to be like seen and recognized and, and.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the way you described your, your comedy performances at Groundlings, like, Michael was known as like, the guy who can like, save a sketch with like a topless belly flop at any point in time, you know? It's just like sacrificing your body, like, you know, just going nuts on stage. That was a big part of like.

• 42:54Speaker 02

  There was just this one thing that I did where I was like this southern, it's like this southern gym teacher that just like kept on wanting to get into the glory days and like, would just get like tackled and like sacked, like, and I was taking hits on stage and like, I had main company members be like, you're not actually like, like, there's mats down. I'm like, no, I'm just taking it, you know? And it's like, I just love the pain of it, like, whatever I could do for a laugh, I would do it, you know? And like, and I also thought that like, I'm more funny when I'm drunk. Like, there's, those go together. Like, that's not a thing and thank God, there's like not any, there wasn't iPhones back in 2016 when I was going to weddings, cause, you know, I was the guy who would like put one sock on my.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  Foot and another sock, another appendage and then be like, anyone see my other sock? And women didn't like that, you know, like my, my, my buddy's fiancees were like, Michael has a problem. You know, it was just like, I just didn't want to deal with it. I was like, this is, this is what my heroes did. Like Farley got nude, like Farley did like big, physical stuff and like Belushi.

• 44:03Rich Roll?

  You can just list them off. And ironically enough.

• 44:05Rich Roll?

  In every art form to that idea that drugs and alcohol are the portal to creativity. Like, we know that that's not true, but it is a deeply entrenched thing. And the prospect of having to break up with that is terrifying. It's like an existential crisis, like you're, I won't be able to do, I have to be willing to not be able to do this thing that I love, that brought me here, that I'm so invested in, in order to save my life.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. And like ironically enough, the first book I read when I got sober was The Chris Farley Show. And the book opens up with him talking to a group of addicts and saying, if he can do it, anybody can do it. And I was like, I had no idea that he, you know, like tried and like had time. And I read that page and I was like, okay, well, yeah, if he could do it, maybe I could do this, you know, like, he wasn't just a, you know, crazy drunk person, you know? And ironically enough too, Tommy Boy was completely sober and it's like the best performance, I feel like.

• 45:07Rich Roll?

  I didn't know that.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So this is like the quiet theme, you know, kind of lingering behind the scenes throughout the film.

• 45:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:15Rich Roll?

  It's like, you know, clawing at him.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  The movie is set during six months of sobriety and, and that's one thing that Michael talked about a lot is how there, there aren't a lot of movies about early sobriety. There's movies about what it takes to get sober because all the wildness, you know, gets to come out in a film, but this movie really is about, you know.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Being, being early sober and, and still being an alcoholic and, and really not knowing how to do it. And, you know, there were so many poignant moments about that when Michael was telling me his personal story that made me want to tell this story. And, you know, one of them was, you know, his desperate fear of like, never being funny again. That was your biggest fear in terms of getting sober is like, being funny is everything that you were at the time and what you felt like you had to offer the world. And if you're, and if you are sober and you can't do that, obviously you made the decision that it wasn't worth living.

• 46:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  In that moment. But, you know, one of the things that's so amazing about Michael, and probably the, the linchpin of what really made me want to make this movie is when he told me about his suicide story and how the belt broke. He told me because he was holding a little bit of holiday weight at the time.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Which, you know, the, the wherewithal of a person to be in tears telling me about the day that he was supposed to die and also make a hilarious joke. I was like, if you don't mind, that's going in the movie.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  Of course, you know? And like, I realized when I would start, you know, once I had gotten some time in sobriety and like, you know, would start sharing at meetings and such, and like, I would start like, hearing the room laugh about the stuff. And I was like, oh, like, it's like, the first time I heard laughter in sobriety was in the rooms, you know? And like, seeing people like, open up their heart, but also like, have a room full of alcoholics laughing at stuff, or drug, you know? And it was just like, this is magic to me. Oh, I found that community that I have always wanted, you know? And, um, and like, I did not do it by myself either. Like, a lot of people helped me get there,

• 47:32Speaker 02

  you know?

• 47:33Speaker 01

  Some of them happened to be mutual friends.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  Shout out Scotty G.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  Always.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  I know he's listening and watching.

• 47:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  He comes up a lot.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  He's the best.

• 47:44Rich Roll?

  And so at this point, you had, so now what do you have like six or seven?

• 47:48Speaker 02

  Seven years, yeah.

• 47:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's been like, it truly has been like the most crazy experience ever. Like I, I was saying this the other day is like, all I ever wanted was, you know, get on SNL, get on TV show and like, that's it. And like God, my God, whatever, you know, has taken me on this whole other journey where like, I didn't think we were going to win the audience award. I didn't think Baltimore rounds was going to take me all over the world and all over the country to like, show this movie. Like, that's not what I had in mind at all. And it's been so much better. And like, that's like, the most magical thing to me is like, getting to experience this movie

• 48:33Speaker 02

  with audiences and like, hearing them die laughing at like, like I just, I sit in the theater and just like, listen, cause it's just the cool, cause I don't know when I'm going to have this experience again.

• 48:45Rich Roll?

  And I, and you get to be present.

• 48:47Speaker 02

  Present, yeah, a hundred percent. And like, I'm like this kind of creep that like, kind of sits in the back. And it's just been like, the most magical.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Well, it's also an incredible lesson in, in, you know, the idea that the worst thing that could happen to you is maybe the best thing that could happen to you, you know, getting fired from Groundlings, getting rejected by Saturday Night Live. You know, you've said to me several times that a lot of your friends who have gone on to be on Saturday Night Live have, have said it's the most traumatic experience, miserable, traumatic experience.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  And I want a miserable life so bad, like that's what I want.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  Like, I gotta take this misery to the max.

• 49:26Rich Roll?

  But there, but it's a romantic misery.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  It is, it is. But you know, as, as you get to know people who are on Saturday Night Live, they're just like, almost didn't make it. And you've said several times, like, you really don't think you would have made it if.

• 49:38Speaker 02

  If I went there when I was still drinking, I would be dead.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:40Speaker 02

  There's no doubt in my mind, cause I would have enjoyed the part, I mean, it would have been the party and everything.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  Well, it would have ratcheted up what you were already doing at Groundling Sunday Company.

• 49:49Speaker 02

  Tenfold.

• 49:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  You're on national television and in your mind, I gotta be high as hell for this to be good.

• 49:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  And they're not sleeping, they're not doing any of that stuff.

• 50:00Rich Roll?

  It's always easy to look through the rearview mirror and, and say, oh yeah, these, these horrible things that happened, you know, or, or, you know, you needed those in order to become the person that you are today. But of course they're true also, like these, these traumatic experiences that create all that suffering are grist for transformation. And on some level, the universe is like, no, you don't get to get that because like you're fucked up dude, you know, and until you snap out of it and start, you know,

• 50:28Speaker 02

  Cleaning it up.

• 50:29Rich Roll?

  Yourself out, like, you know, we're gonna deprive you of these things because you're not ready for them, you're not prepared for them. I think the thing that gets lost, like there, we live in a town where there's a lot of inspirational stories of great artists who, who were sort of under the belief that like drugs and alcohol were required in order for them to like share their gift. They get sober and then their careers blossom, right? But as anybody who's like in these rooms knows, like, the only thing that, you know, you are guaranteed for not drinking and using is to, is to be sober, you know, it's not like you do it to get these things, but

• 51:10Rich Roll?

  you're provided with the opportunity to, you know, become this more self-actualized person and that puts you in a position to become available for a bigger and more beautiful life. Like you, you get the chance to chase your dream because of that, but you're not guaranteed the dream.

• 51:26Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. I mean, like, I heard other people share their morning routines in those rooms and I stole those morning routines from people, you know, like, I get up every day at four and I get on my knees, I make prayer, I do my meditation, I journal, I read a new chapter of a book every day, I go to the gym and exercise and then I work for an hour on my work, whatever that is, writing, you know, and then I hit a meeting every single day and that's all before 8:30 AM. And all that stuff, I feel like is, again, the only way I'm allowed to do that is because I'm sober. And I think like when I put sobriety first, Then the rest of the stuff, the cash and prizes don't come, but you're, you can actually

• 52:11Speaker 02

  work hard and get the things, or get the things that you want, the dreams that you want, you go and chase them yourself with, you know, sobriety on your back.

• 52:20Rich Roll?

  And then the challenge becomes when you get your dream, which you're getting right now, like, how do you, how do you maintain sobriety as your, as your first priority and not suddenly become captured by all the, all the kind of fancy things that are going to be dangled in front of your face now?

• 52:36Speaker 02

  Well, I've got

• 52:37Rich Roll?

  And stay grounded.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  I've got a lot of people that keep me humble.

• 52:40Rich Roll?

  Without the groundlings.

• 52:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I got a lot of people, people that keep me humble, you know, like, I've got a great core group of friends that like, you know, just are there for me and I also like, I help out a lot of people by offering my time and sponsorship, you know, and, you know, I, I personally love when I get a phone call from anyone because it gets me out of my own self and gets me out of like, why am I not going out for that, you know, all the stuff that the industry that I'm in can take up my whole entire day and get me all crazy, you know, instead, find a way to be of service, you know, and that can be with my partner, with everybody. But, you know, another cool thing is like the movie had like all my family in it. So

• 53:25Speaker 02

  like, they keep me grounded a lot too. And they're like, yeah, you're just from Baltimore. You're not anything that big, you know, but

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Although I think their eyes were pretty wide open at South by Southwest.

• 53:38Rich Roll?

  Yes. They all come for the

• 53:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, it's so funny, I'll do this quick story. My, my mom's sitting one seat over from me and she's in the first five minutes of the movie. She plays Darlene, Brittany's mom. And she's watching and she comes on screen and she just goes, "Oh!" She forgot. She was in it. She was in it, yeah, yeah. And I was like, come on, Mom. And then, and then my dad came to another screening. And my dad and my stepmom were so sweet. They came to the Saturday one. And my dad is just in my ear going, there's Marty. There's Allison. There's, oh, there's Chris. And I'm like, Dad, this is not a private screening. You can't just be saying everybody that you're seeing on the screen. Like, and then it was just so cool.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  Cause like, and like, in all honesty, like, this is what's gonna keep, like, that whole day on Saturday, we got to do press and do all these things, like, that I've never done before. Take pictures and, you know, get to do all that. It was, it was a blast. The coolest thing about doing that whole was having my family next to me and like, watching this movie that we worked so hard on. Like, seeing that was like, that's my dreams. Like, my mom's finally seeing her son up there on the big screen. And like, that's, that keeps me here, you know?

• 54:58Rich Roll?

  Except for your brother.

• 55:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:01Rich Roll?

  Who, who wasn't able to make it.

• 55:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:04Rich Roll?

  Which is another big piece in, in all of this.

• 55:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, that was, um, you know, that was a year into my sobriety. I had a year and two days and I got a phone call from my dad. And my dad said, um, Zach is no longer among the living. And, uh, you know, like, I didn't know what to do. So I, uh, I called up my, my sponsor. He came over. He helped me book a flight. I went home and like, I put my one year chip in the gasket with Zach cause he had time in the program too. And I just like showed up and be of service, you know? How can I help people there? And it was brutal, you know, like.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  He was thirty-three. It's like the same age as like, you know, Farley and Belushi. And like, and he really tried at this. And like, that's the thing is like, I don't understand why I get it and he doesn't. And, um, you know, when I came back to LA, I went to my meeting and, um, I just like was the first hand up raised and I just shared, um, I just went back to Baltimore. I just, you know, I had to bury my brother. And, um, I went back to my seat and the guy that had his arms wrapped around me was my friend Zach.

• 56:36Speaker 02

  And like, that's God to me, you know, that Zach saying, I'm okay up there or wherever he is, you know, is that?

• 56:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like, it's a, it's a, it's a messed up disease. And, um, you know, like, it's been riddled in my family. Like my, my, my granddad died in an accident, a car accident, was drinking and driving, you know? And, but if I can stay sober, then if people that need it in my family, they have someone to call, you know? And I can change the, and it's not, and I don't want to have ego involved with like changing the narrative of a family, but like, I just love being sober so much that I, you know?

• 57:32Rich Roll?

  You get to be a living example. And, and that's, that, that's powerful in interrupting that kind of generational, uh, uh, you know, kind of continuation of, of this pattern.

• 57:45Rich Roll?

  But there's real beauty and humility in not being like, oh, I got sober and I moved to Hollywood and now I'm doing my thing. Like, the movie is a love letter to Baltimore and like these people, like, real people are in it, people that you know.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  Mostly real people.

• 58:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 58:03Speaker 02

  My whole family.

• 58:04Rich Roll?

  Because you didn't have to pay them.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:06Rich Roll?

  But it gives it a real authenticity, you know, and I think that there is, there is a maturity and a humility in your performance because on some level, like, as a comedian, like, there is a flex, like, you're gonna do your thing and you've got like your bits and stuff like that, but you're never over your skis on it. Like, it's never in a like, hey, look at me, showy way. Like, it's always very, you know, integrated and germane to, you know, character development and plot. And it just felt like a less mature performer, given this opportunity, would be like, you know, kind of, okay, I'm gonna go, I'm taking

• 58:48Rich Roll?

  it all the way, you know. And there was that sense of like, this guy could probably, you know, push the accelerator on this and he's not doing that.

• 58:56Speaker 02

  That's him.

• 58:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Or he's holding you back from that? He's saving you from that fate?

• 59:03Speaker 02

  Well, he just kinda like, he gave me the best acting note I've ever gotten, where it was just like, and it's such a, he just said, you're enough. Like, you're great. Like, just stay in it.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  Just be you, just be real. I mean, that's the greatest compliment, is, you know, is that the comedy is germane to the story because, you know, what I've found over the years, at least for the kinds of movies that I make, is that if I can tell a real, honest story and it's dramatic and people are behaving very naturally, the comedy that emanates from that, it just, it lives in the heart, you know what I mean? It's not like brain comedy. I mean, because of course, like, a gag is a gag and we'll always laugh, but like, when the comedy lives in the heart, it just like resonates and it's additive over time, you know. It just builds over time when you love that person more and more.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  And I think it works both ways. I think comedy also opens hearts. So it's like a symbiotic relationship. But, I mean, Michael trusted me and...

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  He's inherently just funny. He's just funny to watch. He's, he's, it's funny to watch him do stuff. And that's what we really did is just created scenarios for him to operate in and for him to be desperate in those scenarios. Cause you know, you certainly in the first six months of sobriety have not shed your desperation yet. And if anything, it's at a fever pitch because you don't have the alcohol to mask it. Obviously you're desperate when you're an alcoholic, but you know, so we were just trying to capture that. And you know, that's a great compliment. I appreciate that.

• 1:00:47Rich Roll?

  Jay, I really need to know what happened to your career as a running influencer and content creator. There was a stretch there where you were like sharing your runs every day on Instagram.

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:58Rich Roll?

  And that seems to have precipitously dropped off.

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was doing a daily run log. I mean, so first of all, my dad was a marathoner. I grew up under like, you know, he, he was a marathoner in the late seventies in like the special American heyday of American distance running. I mean, now we're in a bigger heyday, but I was just obsessed with it. I ran in high school. I didn't run in college. I went to University of Texas and it was kind of like one of the few schools that I couldn't run at. But yeah, I kind of came back to running. I mean, I've always run on and off my whole life, but yeah, I was trying to really make a comeback and run every day. And I drove my body into the ground, mainly just because I'm, as we were talking, I'm

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  a workaholic and you know, I don't have a lot of wiggle room in my life in general. Like there's just, you know, being married, I got two kids, you know, I have a partnership with my brother. I'm making a lot of movies. I'm mentoring other people to help them make movies.

• 1:02:00Rich Roll?

  You got dogs?

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  I got two dogs. You know, it's just, I just got really beat up. And our common friend, Alexi Pappas, has actually offered to like, coach me. And I was like, I don't know if I can go there yet. You know what I mean? Cause

• 1:02:15Rich Roll?

  Creates a little bit of accountability, you know, that you might not be able to live up to right now.

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not sure I could live up to it, but I do love it. It's like, It's kind of my church, you know, I mean, right now, it's just walking and jogging and, you know, just trying to get out in nature as much as possible. But I did have a lot of people loving just seeing someone run every day. It was a weird, there's nothing super special about it, but I think there was something, you know, accountability wise about it. It's just like you wake up and this one guy is gonna run every day, you know, which I did for about six months. And then I was like, honestly, my body just broke down and I didn't have the wherewithal or the time or the energy to, to get the supports to, to move through

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  it and to take care of myself as I did it, which is, you know, that's what you need to do if you want to run every day.

• 1:03:07Rich Roll?

  Well, this is the dilemma for the ambitious, you know, successful person, you know, who, who wants to, you know, do all things and is very capable in many ways. But, you know, you strike me as somebody who overcommits themselves. Like when you look at your IMDb, like I thought I had a bead on like all your projects. And I was like, I haven't heard of 80% of these shows that you executive produce. Like it's insane.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  Neither am I.

• 1:03:32Rich Roll?

  How many things you're involved with. So like you live inside a very crowded mind, I would imagine.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I definitely like my brother and I, you know, we grew up in the suburbs of New Orleans and we, you know, we, we loved movies growing up. We were obsessed with everything coming, you know, down the pipe of HBO. It was like a momentous day, the day that cable came to our neighborhood. We didn't know what it meant. We thought like literally a big cable was going to be laid across our lawns to bring all these wonderful television shows and movies in particular. But, um, you know, at that time, when we were growing up, it was New Orleans. So we, we, we basically thought the only way to be an artist was to, to be like a 60 year old blues, uh, black man, you know, touring

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Europe. We tried to do that. Uh, we failed at that. And then. You know, we, we went whole hog into movies and honestly, it felt like, I guess, a little bit like immigrants to film culture because, you know, we weren't Coppola kids. We didn't know anybody who made movies. We had no idea how we would access it. We were just, you know, making movies on VHS in the eighties when we were kids. But we had this kind of lucky moment where I went to the University of Texas in 1991. And this is when Robert Rodriguez and Richard Linklater had, each had made a $20,000 feature film.

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  And we didn't have $20,000, but that was an amount of money that we can like get our heads around. Like, oh, that's, seems doable one day. And Rick and Robert were also guys who were walking around Austin, Texas, wearing jeans and t-shirts and going to coffee shops and talking about movies. And, and, and so that's what kind of like birthed this idea that we could come into this world and like make films and maybe have a career doing it. But, you know, it still felt far away. So this is all just to say that we feel like we don't belong. I know you've had that journey too. It's just like, what am I doing

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  here? We feel like we invented this thing that we're doing because we kind of were the first generation of like DV filmmakers who, you know, our first feature film, The Puffy Chair, was $10,000. I mean, it was like shot digitally and literally was the story of our lives in that moment, very Sean Baker style in that moment, which is like, this is all the money we have and this is the only story we have to offer, you know, which is just like our pathetic desperation around wanting to be successful and what it means to be in a relationship in your twenties, which is what that film was about.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I, I, I've spent a lot of time putting my head down and just like not allowing myself to really come up for air. And now that I'm 50, I'm like, okay.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  How can I turn off that that impulse, you know, that desperate instinct to just create and to be successful because volume was a big part, like you were saying, volume was a big part of us finding our way because we wanted to be the Coen Brothers. I mean, that's what everybody wanted to be in the early 90s coming up as filmmakers. We failed at that. They're very good at what they do, by the way. Like, don't try to be the Coen Brothers, you know? So it just took us a long time to figure out our style and what we uniquely had to offer. And I'm 52 now and I'm still having a really hard time turning

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  off that desperate impulse to just continuously make things. And, you know, I mean, this year's been amazing. I've acted in a bunch of stuff, but literally four months ago, I had no prospects for any work whatsoever. I had no jobs.

• 1:07:42Rich Roll?

  That's hard to believe.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  No, truly. I had no offers, at least. I mean, there's always possibilities and I can create stuff for myself, but I had no offers. So, I mean, I was talking to Michael about it like four months ago. I was like...

• 1:07:54Speaker 02

  I was like, "You're gonna be fine, bud. Don't worry."

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  But I, you know, I had no way, I had no guarantee to make money. So that's kind of what I'm struggling with right now.

• 1:08:03Rich Roll?

  A story that works. Like, how do you figure that out? You know, how do you, how do you know when the story is working, when it's, when it is heartfelt and all of those things? Like, this is a, this is like a very difficult art form that I think people fail to fully appreciate.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  That's nice. I, I agree with you. And I think that there is a sort of like misperception, and that's why there's so much challenge in Hollywood is that, you know, because we all watch movies, we can make movies, but it's, it is an incredibly complex art form. And, and very specifically what you're saying, like the... The the plot of a movie that's actually gonna work. Um, and that part of that is a lot of experience and a lot of failure, a lot of failure on my part in making movies that, you know, like, had some fun things and some great scenes and they were funny and stuff, but in the end, it didn't like get you there. It didn't really deliver something that made you look at life in a whole new way. I mean, it's incredibly tall order.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  And that's where I spend most of my time is just conceiving a movie, you know, conceiving like, what is the structure of a movie? What is the scaffolding that's gonna build, that's gonna pay off when you get there? And then the rest of it is like sobriety. It is constant vigilance and nudges and creating positivity. And, um, you know, jumping, jumping off of cliffs when you don't know if there's gonna be warm water down there, might be jagged rocks and, and, and like you guys are saying, like, being an exemplar for everybody else as a director, you know, I think one of the best things that you can do is just like, is just like, um,

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  shore yourself up with confidence in the morning, not the kind of confidence that's like fake or whatever, but just that, just like, I believe in this movie. I believe in what we're doing. And when you believe in what you're doing and you go forth with love, uh, it creates itself. You know, so it really is, especially on a tiny movie where, you know, you're just kinda wandering around Baltimore and you're part, you're parking a white van. Were you running and gunning or were you, did you have permits and stuff like that? I mean, there were, there are scenes where cars are driving and there's no other cars around. No control whatsoever. Shut the streets down or something, no? I mean, that's one of the, no, no shutting streets, no, nothing was shut down. We have a, we have a scene that was filmed on what's called 34th Street in Baltimore,

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  which is a Christmas tree avenue where all these houses light their houses up and people are just walking around and we just shot there and we, you know, we did dialogue replacement. We did all kinds of stuff, but the amazing thing about Baltimore is that, um, a permit to shoot on the street for a month. Is sixty five dollars.

• 1:10:56Rich Roll?

  Forty five.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  Forty five.

• 1:10:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, forty five dollars.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  And I told Mark and my producers back in LA and they were like forty five dollars a day is incredible. I'm like forty five total. Forty five total for the entire month. So as long as you are not in a street, as long as, so it's a very friendly place to shoot a movie. And that was a big part of it, too, is just like being out of LA, which, you know, people are talking about it a lot right now. LA has become very bloated, it's become very expensive, the permits are expensive. If you want to shoot in a drugstore in LA, it costs like thirty thousand dollars because everyone's savvy and, you know, so many big things have shot here. So, you know, part of the movie was also just going, going to Baltimore so that we could have summer camp and make, make a movie together on the download.

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  But, I mean, for sure, we were in some questionable neighborhoods at three in the morning and, you know, I mean, crazy, we did some crazy things. We, we, we had to get a Cadillac from, from, from, from a trailer park where there was some.

• 1:11:57Speaker 02

  I was like, I'm gonna get J D Plas killed right here.

• 1:11:59Speaker 01

  There were.

• 1:11:59Rich Roll?

  Well, it's sort of the meta, the meta story to the kind of after hours aspect of this movie. Like, there is a sort of, you know, it all takes place, like, there's this weird adventure at night and all different, they're encountering all different kinds of people.

• 1:12:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, and like even like, you know, the house at the end of the movie, we had to get like another black door, like, that matched, well, I don't want to give anything away, but just had to match doors. And I look over at this woman kind of coming out of the door and I look at her door and I was like, okay, that's a black door. And I was like, AJ, I'm gonna ask this woman if we can use her house for the end shot. And went over and I was like, hey, we're shooting a movie down there. Like, is there any way we could use your front door and to be the exterior? She was like, yeah, I'm just hanging out all day, love to help out. So like, the end of the movie was just like.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  It would never happen in LA.

• 1:12:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  She was like rearranging plants on people's stoops for us. We, she was like.

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  She hung out with Liz like the whole afternoon.

• 1:12:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, like our lead actress was like.

• 1:12:55Speaker 02

  Didn't they get each other's number?

• 1:12:56Speaker 01

  It was freezing cold, so she was able to, we used her bathroom. I mean, it was just, the whole shoot was. An all night adventure in Baltimore, just like the movie is. It was like, you know, art, our life mimicking art, actually, you know, it was like a weird cycle.

• 1:13:13Speaker 02

  And people saying, I mean, that's un corny, but people saying like, yes, and how can I help and, you know, like, that's what I, I mean, I feel like I learned so much about producing from Jay was just like, just call, see what they say, you know, the worst thing anyone's gonna say is no. So you might as well just take a shot. And, you know,

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  We took a lot of shots.

• 1:13:32Rich Roll?

  You, you mentioned that for you, Baltimore is much more hairspray than The Wire. I mean, you know, John Waters is the ambassador of Baltimore. Like, he's, yeah, like, there's no contest here. And he went to a screening, yeah?

• 1:13:46Speaker 02

  He was in P town.

• 1:13:47Rich Roll?

  Have you met him before?

• 1:13:48Speaker 02

  First time ever. He's met my niece because my mom used to work at The Store Limited, which is an old store in Baltimore that shut down this year. But he took a picture with my niece at six months old. So we have a picture of John with the baby and then now me and John. But, you know, she, you know, he would come into the store a lot. And when I first went out to LA, my mom was like-

• 1:14:09Rich Roll?

  Does he like dress up just when he's like walking around?

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wanna know what he's wearing on a Tuesday.

• 1:14:14Rich Roll?

  What is a day in the life?

• 1:14:15Speaker 02

  I mean, very similar, like this jacket, probably, like something like this, like cozy.

• 1:14:18Speaker 01

  He's not wearing an ascot and like a purple kimono?

• 1:14:21Speaker 02

  He does, he did get a scarf for his mom, like every year for Christmas there. Like, that's what he would always do.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  Oh, that's really sweet.

• 1:14:29Speaker 02

  But my mom, be my mom, she was like, you know, my son just moved out to Los Angeles. Do you have any advice for him? He wants to be an actor. And she, and he goes, yeah, tell him to get another hobby.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  Did you tell him that story when you met him?

• 1:14:40Speaker 02

  I did. And then he went, I don't know if I said that. And I was like, you did. My mom would not, yeah. But yeah, he was like, I mean-

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  Those are the moments, man.

• 1:14:49Speaker 02

  Well, and he came to the screening and he, he sat during the Q and A and everything. And he asked a question during the Q and A, which was like so cool. He was like, how did you film on 34th Street? I've been wanting to shoot there forever. How'd you do it?

• 1:15:03Rich Roll?

  The technical question.

• 1:15:04Speaker 01

  The technical question, yeah.

• 1:15:05Speaker 02

  And, and I was like, we, we had a permit that we could shoot on the street and it was all good. And he was like, ah, man, I wish I thought of that. And then he asked about the Key Bridge, because the Key Bridge is in it. And that's.

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  That's the bridge that came down like a few months after we shot it.

• 1:15:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:20Rich Roll?

  I forgot about that.

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's wild. That, we have a sort of iconic, it's sort of our Manhattan Bridge or Brooklyn Bridge, shot as an ode to Baltimore, which is the key bridge, which you insisted on getting even though we were, it was 18 degrees in the middle of the night.

• 1:15:37Speaker 02

  And I was like, let's get it, let's get it.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  We gotta get this shot.

• 1:15:40Speaker 02

  And it's the most, I mean, it's one of my favorite shots of the movie because it just looks so beautiful and it's Christmas Eve night and it's just like stunning. And he asked, he was like, how, how early on before, like, how many months ago did you shoot that before it fell? And I was like, two months in December. And he was like, you know, the Wall Street Journal called me asking for comment when the bridge fell. And I was like, what do you want me to say? I've driven on it.

• 1:16:02Speaker 02

  I was like, that's great. But yeah, it's like, it's the coolest thing to like, have somebody that's a legend of mine, growing up and seeing all his movies and like, him coming to a screening of Baltimore was like.

• 1:16:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's really beautiful.

• 1:16:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, next level.

• 1:16:19Rich Roll?

  What are, what are some of your storytelling or filmmaking rules, you know, that, that might be, you know, interesting for the average person who's just a movie watcher, you know, when it comes to like, because I asked you about like, what makes a great story or how do you know when you have a great story?

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  I mean, my first rule is make movies, not meetings. All the kids that come to me and they want to pick my brain and they're like, how do you get it done? And I'm like, you make movies. And their fear is that they're not ready and that they're going to be bad. And, and, and my answer is always, yes, they are. They're going to be bad. And, um, you know, to dispel the myth that someone wakes up in the morning, they go to the bathroom and either a great movie comes out or, or, or a bad movie comes out. You know, I think it's, it is still relatively a new art form. So for instance, you know, if you knew. If you had friends who went to art school and were painters in college, like, there's not a painter in the world that would expect to sell a painting

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  until they've done at least 500. You know what I mean? At least for like, a decent amount of money. Maybe your friend will be nice to you and give you 50 bucks. You know what I mean? But that's a given, that as a painter, you're gonna paint 500 paintings before you're actually gonna be up in a gallery and people are gonna buy your paintings for thousands of dollars, for instance. So, you know, I try to tell people just, um, make bad art. Make a lot of bad art. I thought I was gonna be the Coen Brothers. I thought, that's what I wanted to be. It turns out stylistically, I'm the total opposite. I shoot in a documentary style. I work with no control. I'm out in the street in Baltimore, trying not to get shot while I'm like, running down the street filming this man. You know?

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  Um, and that had to be, I had to be hit over the head with that. I had to, you know, my sort of origin story for, for finding out what I uniquely had to offer the world was, when I was ready to quit and my brother was like, "We're shooting something today." And we got a tiny video camera and we shot this short film about him trying to perfect the personal greeting of his answering machine and failed to do so and had a nervous breakdown, because that's what happened to me the week before.

• 1:18:30Rich Roll?

  For, for people who aren't intimately familiar with your, with your career, though, what, what gets missed in that is the fact that, yeah, you weren't, you didn't become the Coen Brothers. You know, like, you're of the generation, you know, there's the Soderbergh, there are these like, rock star directors, right? And like, the aspiring director is like, someday, you know? And you're, you're, when you don't know what your thing is or your style is yet, you're gonna, of course, like, copy the people who inspire you. But by just like, "Hey, we're shooting today, no matter what", you guys are responsible in large part for actually creating an entire new genre called Mumblecore. Like, I don't know what your relationship or feelings are about that now,

• 1:19:14Rich Roll?

  but, um, the Coen Brothers can't say that.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is odd that we are the godfathers of a filmmaking movement that we didn't make up ourselves, you know, it's we

• 1:19:28Rich Roll?

  But anybody who would create a genre or a movement didn't do so because they were trying to.

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:19:33Rich Roll?

  It was authentic, like, sort of outgrowth of whatever it was they were just doing.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  Like, the press and film professors essentially decide what happened. But, yeah, we were at the very early stages of the first time digital video became good enough to look at, to where you could actually broadcast it, you know, and you could actually transfer it to film and it would look decent. So we were, I mean, honestly, it can be, and that's a testament to just staying the course, but like, the moment we made our first decent film was the same time that they came out with this camera called the Panasonic AGDVX100. I still know it to this day, even though that number is ridiculous, because it was a revolution for myself and for so many other people.

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  And oddly enough, I mean, we premiered The Puffy Chair at Sundance, but it was oddly enough at South by Southwest that four or five other filmmakers, just like Mark and me, were there with movies shot on that very same camera. And there were movies that were very specifically about our lives and the stories that we had to offer, you know. No one was there with a movie that cost more than $20,000. And the press got a hold of it, and they were like, "Something is happening. Something is clearly happening here." And, you know, at the time, it felt weird, because we were just trying to make a movie that didn't suck, frankly.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  That's what we were trying to do. But it was incredible at the time, because we got written up in The New York Times as part of a movement, and we were being called the godfathers of the movement, because our movie had a lot of legs to it. And that was odd. And now, we're in a lot of textbooks. I have a lot of professors calling, and they want to interview us, because they're writing something, you know, strictly academic, and they want to talk to us about it. So, it's very cool. It's very dreamy. But you know what's wild about it is like, you know, I wanted to be the Coen Brothers, but I also love John Cassavetes and I always wanted to, I just thought it would be so cool

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  to be like iconic, but as I'm in it, I don't feel that way. I'm still just trying to make a movie that doesn't suck.

• 1:21:57Rich Roll?

  They would say the same, I'm sure.

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  I think so. I think so. I mean, because even the greats, I mean, the Coen Brothers have some questionable films out there, you know, and it is such a tough form.

• 1:22:08Rich Roll?

  How dare you.

• 1:22:09Speaker 01

  I know. But it is such a difficult form and I think, you know, you gotta have beginner's mindset. You have to have it because you, no matter what movie you're making, you're this close to making a movie that doesn't work. You know, everything has to really come together for something to be beautiful and transcendent and funny and heartfelt and all the things that you want a movie to be.

• 1:22:34Rich Roll?

  Has there ever been a movie or a show that you've been involved in or that you were making where there wasn't a moment where you were like, this is a fucking disaster? Like, this is never gonna work?

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, no, there's never.

• 1:22:48Rich Roll?

  Or that first cut or whatever where you're like, this is never going to come together.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  It always comes at some point where you're like, oh no, oh no, this is, this is maybe not gonna work. We had that moment with the Baltimoreons, our critical scene, which is filmed at a comedy club where Michael and Liz, our two leads, go up on stage and essentially flop and have to figure out how to work their way out of a bad sketch, essentially. That scene, we filmed it. It was our toughest scene. We spent two days and two nights filming that scene and it didn't work. It did not work. And it wasn't a disaster. Like, I would

• 1:23:30Speaker 01

  say it made the movie a B. And Michael and I were like, we want an A+. We will not, you know. And so we went back to Baltimore in the middle of the summer to refilm that scene, but it took us months to reconceive it and to figure out what that scene really needed to be. It's really the linchpin of the whole movie.

• 1:23:54Rich Roll?

  And what was the unlock? Like, what was the shift that you realized would make it work?

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  The unlock, which is a little inside baseball, but when you see the film, you'll know, was ultimately that like,

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  You know, you learn about, these movies tell you what they need as you go along. And the more you can respond, the better. But what we learned is that, you know, Michael's character helped Liz through the most challenging thing she could imagine doing, which was to go to her ex-husband's house during Christmas and face everyone so that she could be with her daughter and her granddaughter. And it's just something that was unimaginable to her. And we realized that that scene from Michael was the moment where Liz would be there for him. And that them just yes-ending each other and staying on stage, which, you know, during

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  this movie, going back on stage is the thing that he feels like he can't do. That's over. That part of his life is over. So she helps him rediscover ultimately that he can be funny sober and that, and then when it's over, he realizes that it's actually better than it's ever been. So, you know, we, there were some widgets in that scene that were really challenging in terms of like, originally, he was funny in the scene, but what we realized is that he had to fail and that she needed to just show up for him and the way he showed up for her. So that was a tough reshoot. It was like 100 degrees in that room in the summer. I had to cut all my high school buddies that were in the last scene. Yeah.

• 1:25:31Rich Roll?

  It definitely works, but yeah, the movie pivots on that. Like, he's gotta, he's gotta be the guy, like, unless he, unless he crushes that scene, she's not on board for the whole other part of the movie that follows.

• 1:25:44Speaker 01

  100%. And it really- Had to build more. Yeah, and I can, I'm very confident that we would not have won the audience award at South by Southwest if we had not reshot that tough thing. And it's, you know, it's, it was our most expensive scene. You know, we had 30 or 40 extras. I know it sounds tiny, but it's, it's a lot, you know? And, you know, we, we, we did pay, I mean, we paid everyone minimally, but we did pay everybody our SAG minimums just because- You know, we want to be, you know, above board. We can't do what we did on Puffy Chair. You know, where you just.

• 1:26:18Speaker 02

  Your parents were in it and then.

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, we still did your parents in it, but we did pay them.

• 1:26:22Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:26:23Rich Roll?

  If, if you were making Puffy Chair today, or you were, you know, where you were at, you know, prior to making that movie, but you know, it's, it's, it's today, like you guys become YouTubers.

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, we're YouTubers.

• 1:26:37Rich Roll?

  You're like, oh, yeah, like you, you would just be making stuff all the time, like you're able, you, this is the ethos, like you're just making stuff all the time, like, you know, moving forward, moving forward, moving forward, like, you know, it would have been, you know, immediately obvious that like YouTube was going to be the place where you were going to tell your story.

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. It would be YouTube. And in fact, our agents at CAA have recommended many, many times that we start a YouTube channel, you know.

• 1:27:02Rich Roll?

  I would watch your, whatever you guys.

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  That's really nice. I mean, maybe that will happen one day, but you know, I think the tricky part too is, is that, you know, you know, if you, if you create a YouTube channel and you run a YouTube channel, you become the manager of a television channel or a web channel. Yeah, exactly. You know, you become.

• 1:27:22Rich Roll?

  It's a whole thing.

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  It's a whole thing. And.

• 1:27:25Rich Roll?

  And if you're going to do it.

• 1:27:26Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And, and the thing that I think I've realized more than anything about my life is that my childhood dream of being a writer-director has never changed. You know, I've flexed and I've accidentally become an actor, you know, and I've, I've had to produce my movies and so that they could be made the way that I need them to be made. And, and then of course, like, I've been lucky enough to work with a lot of up and coming young people and all kinds of different voices and help them do their thing. But I think in like the sort of like back nine of my career, I'm realizing this is what I really want to do is write and direct films. And, um, and so just, um, I want to put all my

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  creative energy into that, you know, because that, giving everything you've got and that is, you know, there's still no guarantee that you can keep going.

• 1:28:17Rich Roll?

  Sure. Michael, I'm curious about your perspective on this. You know, we're in this weird. Era right now where, you know, movies and television are up in the air. Movies are dead. People aren't going to the theaters. And yet, when you turn on your smart TV, it's just like, you just can't believe how much choice you have like, and, and, and people are saying like, oh, you know, like there's no jobs. Everyone's out of work in LA. And then you're like, yeah, but who's making the 7,000 shows that, you know, seem to, seem to premiere every week across all of these platforms? So it's a bizarre time, like, you know, the economic model, you know, behind all of

• 1:28:58Rich Roll?

  this, the engine is, is very much, you know, in transition. But because the gatekeepers have been completely removed, at least, you know, on platforms like YouTube, you have an entire generation of young people who are just making stuff all the time and they're learning intuitively how to tell a good story or what works or what doesn't. And like, you're making these short videos on, you know, your social media and all of that, which you have to imagine is going to create a lot of really talented creators who will eventually go on to make feature films or, you know, series television or whatever. We're already seeing some people do that. Who are those Australian brothers?

• 1:29:43Speaker 01

  Talk to me, yeah, talk to me, directors.

• 1:29:45Rich Roll?

  Those guys, like, they're like the hot new thing. They have that, don't they have a movie coming out soon?

• 1:29:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was out in June.

• 1:29:50Rich Roll?

  Oh, no, the, um.

• 1:29:52Speaker 01

  It's with, uh, what's her face? Um.

• 1:29:54Rich Roll?

  I know, I know what you're talking about. I haven't seen the movie. It was great. It was great.

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  And Ava Victor, uh, who has Sorry Baby, it's the big hit out of Sundance this year. She got a 824 release. Um, and, you know, she originally was an Instagram influencer who, you know, turns out is an incredible filmmaker.

• 1:30:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But what we haven't seen is what your, your agent suggested that you guys do, like, see, like legitimate veteran filmmakers, directors, uh, who have been in Hollywood forever, go to YouTube and make, make some interesting, cool stuff.

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  We've done it on, on a less extreme scale because, you know, uh, our, our fourth and fifth movies were, were Hollywood movies. They were, you know, Fox Searchlight and Paramount movies. They were seven and a half and $10 million respectively. And, you know, at that point in time, we realized, man, um. We actually enjoy making the little ones better and they make us just as much money because we own them, you know, we don't, of course you don't, they're big risks, but, you know, so we kind of like receded from like that Hollywood pathway. The idea is like you go to Sundance with a couple of films and then you start working with Searchlight and then you start working with, you move up to focus, you know what I mean? It's like

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  a very, very clear path of what a lot of people did, but not really a lot, like, you know, 25 people, um, because it's a very narrow corridor. Well, now it's just a pipeline to Marvel or DC. That's absolutely what it was and my brother and I definitely got offered some really big crazy stuff that we turned down because we realized, um, you know, um, yeah, we were courted by Marvel, we were courted by like the Focker franchise, we were courted by, um, you know, um, we were offered The Dictator, um, to direct, um, there were a lot of people who were very interested in us, not only because we did good dramatic

• 1:31:56Speaker 01

  comedy, but we were known as like really good guys who could work with challenging people if need be, you know, because that's a huge part of those franchises. Underrated skill. It's a very underrated skill and it, nobody thinks about it, but you get in Hollywood and you start hearing about it real fast and, you know, and you feel it, you know, like a lot of these big comedies, for instance, are not about making the best movie. You have a franchise and your job is not, of course, they want it to be as funny and as heartfelt as it can be, but your job is actually moving a movie from A to Z over the course of three years without anybody murdering anybody else, you know what I mean? And there are a lot of directors that are known for their person- Murder.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  Murder, yeah, that, and their personality management, you know, and that was really tough for Mark and me because, um, you know, big studios didn't really want to make exactly what we wanted to make at a, you know, higher budget. They wanted to suck us up into their world and use our skills to like essentially get their franchises made, um, you know, without murder. Um, and ultimately we turned away from that, um, because we just did not-

• 1:33:09Speaker 01

  You know, we just wanted to make original art and we had suffered so much and come so far, you know, we were like, let's, let's, let's go back to our little, you know, pond that we swim in.

• 1:33:20Rich Roll?

  It's pretty rare that, that a director could step into that and maintain a singular vision, like, you know, Ryan Coogler can do it, you know, Christopher Nolan did it, but you know, there's a lot of people who, who kind of got chewed up in that whole thing.

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  But like, the money is giant. It's like, I read something your brother had said, I

• 1:33:40Rich Roll?

  think it was in a Variety article, it was like, Jay could get offered, you know, $500,000 to be an actor in X, but if this other project that's going to pay him $150 is just 10% better, he'll do that every time. And then like, you know, like, how do you prevent yourself from making those compromises? Especially, it's like, you know, it's expensive to live. You've got kids and all of it.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  I've got kids in LA.

• 1:34:07Rich Roll?

  And even like, the greatest artists, they'll go out and do the one so that they can like, put their kids through college or buy their beach house or whatever.

• 1:34:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, honestly, keeping my expenses low, I don't buy stuff. I just don't buy stuff. I just want to make stuff. I think having an aesthetic mentality, which I had to have for my, you know, first 10 years of my career. You know, I came up in Austin, Texas, you know, making $15,000 a year because that's, that was what I needed to make to keep doing my thing. But it's also just my temperament. Like, I just, I want to be a part of beautiful, transcendent art. And I have learned that, you know, what you do begets what you get. You know, if you make, if you are a part of something incredible, people look to that and they're, they will hire you on something beautiful, you know,

• 1:34:59Speaker 01

  going forward. So. I don't know. I mean, it's partially is just like I'm an art Nazi too. I mean, I just like, I just, all I want to do is make art and I want it to be as great as it can be. And you know, it's, it is challenging at times and you know, we live on the east side and we keep our expenses low. And I mean, that, that's, that's been an interesting part of it too, because people think that I have way more money than I have because they look at like the IMDb situation. I'm like, no, my wealth is in the quality of the stuff that I get to make, you know, and I do make a good living and I feel good about it.

• 1:35:35Speaker 02

  At least five figures.

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  I mean, but, but for real, like, you know, what happens in Hollywood is you make a lot of money and people start fishing around if they could maybe sue you. That happens sometimes too. Like, you know, I can't mention things that have happened, but people have sniffed around and figured out how much money we actually have and they're like, oh, which.

• 1:35:55Speaker 02

  Your litigation avoidance.

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, litigation, this is, yeah.

• 1:35:59Speaker 02

  This is why.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  This little PSA, stay away. There's nothing to get, you know? I mean, but it is, it is a part of the philosophy of just like, I'm just here to make great art. And, and, and that's, that's what allowed me to, um, to survive too, is just like doing the volume and just making great stuff.

• 1:36:17Rich Roll?

  How do you balance having a singular artistic vision with the fact that it is a collaborative medium?

• 1:36:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:26Rich Roll?

  And also, uh, a medium in which it's important to, you know, take feedback from the right people. I mean, this is like an A thing. Like you run your decisions by other people, you know, before you make those, especially with your early sobriety.

• 1:36:41Speaker 01

  They're like, you should get engaged. And I was like, okay, I can do it.

• 1:36:43Rich Roll?

  Early and often that like, maybe your idea isn't the best idea. Uh, you know, Jay doesn't suffer from that problem, but, uh, but there is a balance between like, this is my vision and this is what I'm doing. And the fact that there's a lot of other people involved and sometimes feedback makes the.

• 1:37:03Rich Roll?

  Project Better, and in this case, you know, the story was a collaborative work between the two of you.

• 1:37:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:10Speaker 02

  I mean, he was, you're the most collaborative person I've ever worked with. Like, truly, this man has no ego, and it's like, the craziest thing is like, or just an ego that I don't see. You know, like, there were no bad ideas. Like, he was like, yeah, let's throw that in, and like, and after several drafts of writing, some of that stuff left, you know, and then, but like, he really does make it, make it ours coming together first, and then it's the cast and crew that, you know, before every single day, we get, this is what I'd never done this, but Jay sets up like, a lineup, where everyone's like, he just is like, anybody wanna say anything to start it off?

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  We do a prayer circle.

• 1:37:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, just to get the day going, and it's like-

• 1:37:53Speaker 01

  It's also because, you know, that, I do that because making a movie feels like war, you know, and you're trying to like, put laughs and heartbreak into a war zone, it can't survive, you know, so I try to create, you know, just socially, a world where everybody is welcome and everybody, you know, if somebody comes to work and their dog died that day, let's hear it, because that, that needs to, that's part of a culture that I, you know, really learned with Transparent, the television show that I was on, but, but yeah, I mean, um, wait, what were we talking about?

• 1:38:28Speaker 02

  Well, just collaborating, and like-

• 1:38:29Speaker 01

  Oh, collaborating, yeah.

• 1:38:30Rich Roll?

  And like, having a vision.

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  Having a vision, I mean, look, I, I think, this is how I really feel about it, is, the best movies are made by dictators who are very benign and who include everybody else in the process, and you know, we talked about it earlier, I do believe in serving my audience, and I, and in particular with this story, I believe in serving Michael's story, so my, the way that I think about it, and maybe this is like, tip number two for, for up and coming filmmakers, is, you know, when you start a movie, that movie's a hundred percent yours, or in this case, it's Michael's and mine, you know, it's his story that I'm telling, and we're telling together, and it is a hundred percent ours, and then every step of the way-

• 1:39:17Speaker 01

  It becomes a little bit less, you know, we hire a DP, we, we, we hire a producer and their feedback comes in and we include that and it belongs to them now. And then over time. We have a test screening. You have a test screening down here and now it's, you know, smart people are coming in telling us what's working, what's not working. And at the very end, the movie no longer belongs to us. And if you have done your job right as a director, it belongs 100% to the audience. So I think the process of making the film is, is learning how to land this plane in the hearts and minds of audience members, because we've already done our thing. You know what

• 1:39:59Speaker 01

  I mean? It's just like, we've already hugged and cried and laughed and high fived and almost got shot in Baltimore. You know what I mean? And then by the end, it, if it doesn't belong 100% to a stranger in a dark room that you will never have a conversation with, you're not really doing your job. And I think I, um, I had, you know, the beginning of my career, I was co-directing with my brother. So we didn't have that auteurship. It was, it was already, we were in receiving mode, you know, and that's what I, you know, you, you see something, you know how you feel about it, but you gotta talk to somebody else about it too. And that really helped train me. And so when I get on set, it's less about,

• 1:40:42Speaker 01

  this is how I wanted it. I want it to be exactly that way. You're not doing what I want. You know, it's more about sitting back as an audience member. And, you know, sometimes it's really comfortable. You have a comfy video village and there's a tent around you. But sometimes you're just standing on a street in Baltimore and there's questionable activity going on in the street nearby you, and you have a monitor this big and you have to really get in your mind and be like, I'm in a movie theater in Pasadena in two years. How is this affecting me? And, you know, that's what I let lead me is like, I guess like being possessed by the audience that will come. That's the communication. That's what we all forget is this is a communication between Michael and me and strangers in a room that

• 1:41:26Speaker 01

  are two or three years away. And that is a weird, long-winded thing to do, but the more that you just keep that in mind. And you're the first audience watching on that monitor. I'm the first audience. Yeah. And if you're not entertained. If I'm not entertained, we gotta, we gotta change it. Yeah, you know.

• 1:41:43Speaker 02

  There's something about that that's curious, though, because this open, this sort of openness that you have to have, this kind of expansive, you know, relationship with the thing and being able to, you know, kind of imagine what it's going to look like down the road.

• 1:41:59Speaker 02

  How does that match up with like, I think maybe you're kind of prone to obsessiveness, like you have obsessions, right? Like, nobody is doing all these different things unless they like get obsessed with something and just like, you know, so.

• 1:42:13Speaker 01

  It's way too hard.

• 1:42:14Speaker 02

  But those are two different energies, right?

• 1:42:16Speaker 01

  They are.

• 1:42:16Speaker 02

  Like, the obsessiveness could make you that dictatorial kind of director.

• 1:42:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's creator, destroyer, yin yang is what it is. And so, similar to, it belongs to us and now it belongs to the audience, early is creator and is destroyer. So, in the early days, it's yes and, it's yes and. Michael, tell me about this. How did that feel? What, you know, why did the belt break? You know? Weight. Holiday weight. Yes. There's a mix along the way, constantly creating, constantly destroying, you know? And, and in the destruction is, there has to be a ton of love, a ton of love in the

• 1:43:00Speaker 01

  destruction. And, but, yeah, I mean, I'm sure there were plenty of times where I was like, we're gonna redo this whole thing. On our first day of shooting, I was like, we're lopping off the first 10 pages of the script. How did that feel when I did that?

• 1:43:16Speaker 02

  I had to take a nap.

• 1:43:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, very overwhelming, right?

• 1:43:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was like, oh, let me, and then, now, looking back on it, like that, like that scene, we were trying to do something that didn't need to happen, and that we can, and that also we can see later on. We can, you know, but yeah, I was like, you know, how are we gonna do it? Like, that's, we're gonna start with that? Okay, you know?

• 1:43:39Speaker 01

  It's traumatic. The whole process is traumatic. I mean, you know? Mark and I, because we failed so much and because we put movies up that didn't work, you know, I got trained early on as just like, by any means necessary. This isn't about me, this isn't... Here's the thing, the whole mechanism of filmmaking, everyone wants you to say, "We got it and we can move on." Right? That's what everybody wants. That's what the producers want, that's what the assistant director who runs the set wants. They just want you to say that. And if you don't say that, everyone is in pain. Because as fun as making a movie is, it's probably 3:00 in the morning, people are underslept, you know, people are having a tough time.

• 1:44:23Speaker 02

  You have extras who have never done this before and they're like, "I thought it was gonna be two hours, what the hell is this?"

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, why am I here? You're having personal conversations with extras to convince them to stay. And what Mark and I realized early on is like, you do not leave until you get it. And if you have to leave when you didn't get it, you're coming back. You're coming back. So, there is a lot of critical...

• 1:44:44Rich Roll?

  Constant pressure to compromise.

• 1:44:46Speaker 01

  Constant pressure. That's what people are always like, "How do you not compromise?" And I'm like, every minute.

• 1:44:52Rich Roll?

  You are compromising. Every decision is a compromise.

• 1:44:54Speaker 01

  Every decision is a compromise. That is 100% correct. And, you know, but ultimately, you're just... It's all about nudges and fighting for the best you can get in that moment, you know? Sometimes an actor shows up on set and they're supposed to be super peppy and hosting a party. And they are grumpy as hell. They haven't slept.

• 1:45:16Speaker 02

  I thought you were not gonna tell this story.

• 1:45:17Speaker 01

  That's not about you. And sometimes you have to re-rig a scene to work with what somebody has to offer. And you also have to make sure that it works in the context of the story that you're telling. So, it is a tireless job. It is, you know, it's a 16-hour-a-day job, for sure. And that's if you're lucky, you know?

• 1:45:38Rich Roll?

  So, when you see a clip of an actor losing his shit on the set, it's like important to, you know, remember that and contextualize that.

• 1:45:45Speaker 01

  100%.

• 1:45:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like, I'm thinking of, and there's that great clip of David Lynch, have you seen that, where he's just, somebody's like, "We gotta move on."

• 1:45:54Speaker 01

  Time.

• 1:45:55Rich Roll?

  Who gives a shit about time?

• 1:45:57Speaker 01

  Who gives a shit about time?

• 1:45:58Rich Roll?

  He's like, "I don't care how long a scene is. It's gonna be as long as it's supposed to be." And he's like screaming.

• 1:46:03Speaker 02

  True. And I think, like, you know, I don't think, you know, actors sometimes, like, we're using all of our emotions, you know? Like, so... We might not be in the best mood, you know, because we have to do this one thing, you know, that's kind of taking that mood from you.

• 1:46:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's, that's the thing is, is I love actors and, and, you know, I, whatever they need to do besides abusing other people that, that, that gets them to where they need to be, I, I support it and I love them and I help them along. I mean, a hundred percent, when I hear an actor losing their mind on set, you know, I, I've experienced it myself as an actor where your body, you know, if you get yourself in a position where, you know, somebody's trying to kill you on set, which happens all the time, your body doesn't know the difference. Your body feels like it's, somebody's trying to kill you. And just because somebody said, "Cut," and you have two minutes to walk over to craft services and get yourself

• 1:47:00Speaker 01

  a bagel, doesn't mean that you've shed the feeling that somebody's trying to kill you right over there, and they're right over there. You know, that's, um, it's real. It's very, very real. And in general, I mean, I feel like part of what this movie is about and part of what making art is about and part of what you're trying to create in the world is like, understanding and compassion for whoever is going through whatever they're going through because everybody's out here doing their best, you know? And in particular with filmmaking, it's unbelievably challenging. It's unbelievably challenging.

• 1:47:36Speaker 02

  It's shocking that anything gets made at all. And then when something's good...

• 1:47:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. When people come onto a set, Michael's family, when they came onto the set, they were like, "I can't believe you guys are out here doing this. All the, y'all been out here for three weeks in the middle of the night, like, trouncing around Baltimore at four in the morning? Like, how are you standing?" And we're like, "'Cause we're idiots and we love what we're doing." But it is, it is astounding how hard it is.

• 1:47:59Speaker 02

  My dad came on set at, I think, his call time was like 11:30 at night. He was like, "You need me there that late? Like, what, like, what are you gonna be doing in Baltimore City that late at night?" And I was like, "We're shooting a movie, Dad." And then he comes and he did a great job, you know?

• 1:48:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:11Speaker 02

  And, uh, yeah. I mean, literally, every single one of my family members are like, "In this movie."

• 1:48:17Speaker 01

  So funny.

• 1:48:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:20Rich Roll?

  There's a difference between improv, yes-and, yes-anding people and like, you know, pathos and dramatic acting. Like, did you study that also? Like, this, I mean, you've done a bunch of TV and stuff like that, but this is like...

• 1:48:34Speaker 02

  This is the first time I've done something that was like, full-on like... Like getting to do so many different things like I love doing comedy. It's so much fun. But like, you know, my favorite actor is like Philip Seymour Hoffman and he could be a killer in Along Came Polly and make you laugh so hard throughout it and be one of the best actors of all time. Like, and so getting an opportunity to like have scenes in this movie that are, you know, emotional and dramatic, like that's what I love doing. Like I, you know, I went to University of Maryland and studied theater there, which me and Larry David came out of there.

• 1:49:15Speaker 01

  That's pretty good, though.

• 1:49:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, and Kermit the Frog, Jim Henson.

• 1:49:20Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:49:21Speaker 02

  But, uh, yeah, like I, I, I think and also like with sobriety, like that shifted a little bit where like, oh, I don't always have to be the funniest guy in the room. I can just be like my, I can show up and be the best listener and be in like, you know, the best actor I can be and serve the scene, you know?

• 1:49:43Speaker 01

  I didn't know whether he could be dramatic or not.

• 1:49:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, you had to be wondering.

• 1:49:48Speaker 01

  I had a total leap of faith. It was a total leap of faith. Um, I just got to know Michael and I was like, he has it. I mean, you know, we'd get together and tell stories and cry and he was emotionally available. And yeah, your sobriety was a huge part of it. We never would have made this movie if you weren't sober. It would have been a different story. But also like, I wouldn't have hired an unknown, unsober person to, you know, who was having trouble to, to put at the front of my movie. But similarly with Liz Larson, our lead actress, you know, that was on Blind Faith, you know, I, I met with her, hadn't worked with her.

• 1:50:24Speaker 02

  I've never seen her in anything before.

• 1:50:26Speaker 01

  She's a musical theater person. She was starring in Transparent, uh, the musical and she was stunning and outrageous. And I was like, I don't know. I've never seen you before. I'm gonna work with you. And she was like, huh, that sounds funny. And then I called her and we met and she told me her story, which is a big part of the film. And, um, and I called Michael after I said, she's it. We're doing it. And we didn't do any chemistry read or anything. I just like, you know, you're just taking the temperature of how people are and what they are like and, um, I mean, it's probably, you have probably have a similar feeling when someone's coming on your podcast, you know when it's gonna be wonderful. And, and I had that feeling about both of them.

• 1:51:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, and getting to work with Liz is like, it made dramatic acting so, like dramatic acting, but like, that easy, cuz like, you just connect with her, and it's like, you're kinda, you're just lost in the moment. Like, you're just there. And same with Olivia, like, you know, truly, like, we got so lucky with-

• 1:51:30Rich Roll?

  Olivia plays your fiancee?

• 1:51:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, Olivia Lucardi.

• 1:51:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:34Rich Roll?

  There's some good moments with her. It's pretty funny when she unleashes on you.

• 1:51:38Speaker 01

  She's a killer, man.

• 1:51:39Speaker 02

  She goes full in. And then my, my actual fiancee is my love interest daughter, so.

• 1:51:46Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:51:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, so.

• 1:51:48Rich Roll?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 1:51:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that was like, that was such a fun scene, doing that with Brian Mendez, and MCAT, and Jess, and my niece Zoe. So Zoe's the little girl in it. And, like, if we don't have everybody being solid actors in that, like, you know-

• 1:52:04Speaker 01

  Old part.

• 1:52:05Speaker 02

  It would've been a disaster, and that scene's one of my favorites, like, you know, and it's all because of, I mean, Brian got hired the day before he came down, and he just did such an amazing job. Like, he's Conway, you know, and when, and we keep that wide shot in with the camo pants, cuz like, that's Baltimore. Baltimore camo.

• 1:52:24Speaker 01

  There's a man wearing camo pants and a camo shirt in Ravens camo colors.

• 1:52:29Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's, that's an all-time costume that guy's got on. Jay, I mean, you've had your own journey with acting. I mean, for many years, you were, you were the guy behind the camera.

• 1:52:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:39Rich Roll?

  And then I would, you know, see you here and there. I mean, I watched Transparent, some of it, but I didn't watch, like, all of it. But where, and I told you as much, like, you really leapt off the screen in Industry. Like, that character was unreal, dude.

• 1:52:54Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:52:54Rich Roll?

  I mean, I've seen a lot of, you know, hedge fund types, or whatever, in television shows. And I love that show, Industry, but you did something like, all your own with that character that made it pretty unique and indelible.

• 1:53:07Speaker 01

  Thank you. Yeah, that, um, yeah, I, I started acting when I was 40 years old. It, it happened because my friends who were directors, if someone dropped out-

• 1:53:19Speaker 01

  They would often hire me. They were like, look, we need a guy to come, you know, Jay's comfortable on set. Set, as I was saying, is a traumatic place to be. Very few people who can really be fully comfortable on set. And I'm not totally comfortable, but I've just been on so many that, you know, you can really just relax into it. And, you know, I would come and do a day player role and I wouldn't try to upsell my role. You know, a lot of day players will come on and be like, what if I said this monologue in addition to saying, what would you like to eat, sir?

• 1:53:48Rich Roll?

  You know, they're definitely gonna bring me back.

• 1:53:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think they're bringing me back. So I just started on accident and eventually it just leveled up and leveled up. And yeah, during COVID, I got to go to Wales and shoot industry, which is, you know, this BBC HBO show. And I, they offered me the role and I, it was a very unusual role for me to play like a killer, you know, hedge fund guy. But I, speaking of Transparent, Transparent was Amazon's first show and we, you know, we thought we were making a web show on the place where you buy your toilet paper at the time. And six months later, I was at the Golden Globes, sitting next to Jeff Bezos,

• 1:54:32Speaker 01

  who ran Amazon, who runs Amazon. And I got to know him and I sort of modeled the character on him a little bit. And it was interesting because I was able to bring a lot to it for, you know, these Brits, you know, they, people who come with a lot of money, you know, don't have to be nice in England as much as in the United States because, you know, money is real old in England. And, you know, but yeah, I was able to sort of bring this, this sort of scrappy killer vibe to that character. And it was, it was kind of a big break in my career. It definitely like showed people, because, you know, prior to that, I was, people were casting me for me. I was pretty much.

• 1:55:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you could be in some version of a movie that you would make and it's very familiar. But that, but the industry role was like an extreme departure from that.

• 1:55:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had to, I mean, it was the toughest role I'd ever taken. I mean, that language, it's almost like learning another language when you're speaking hedge fund talk because the creators had come from that world. It was very inside baseball. And so you had to know the dialogue so well that you could actually sort of like. Intimate the emotional value of what was happening because, you know, it's even as a viewer, it's hard to keep track of exactly what's happening. Like, it's only because the actors on that show are so good that you can understand it. So that was a, that was a pretty wild show and definitely broke my career open as an actor.

• 1:55:58Rich Roll?

  What did you learn from hanging out with Jeff Bezos? Like, what can you share about? Just down to our guys. Like, how that, you know, what that hang was like?

• 1:56:09Speaker 01

  That hang was like, it was, it was an odd experience because everybody, so, early days of Transparent, you know, you're talking about 12 people at a table at the Golden Globes, at the Emmys, at the Peabodies, none of whom had, had ever been there before. So, we're all just showing up, including Jeff Bezos, you know, showing up, trying to figure out what this is and what this means. You know, I do, I mean, very friendly guy, very excited about what we were doing, you know? I mean, it was a huge windfall for,

• 1:56:48Speaker 01

  for them to have like their first show do incredibly well. I, the main thing that I remember is he would show up and disappear through odd doors and we were told that there were helicopters involved. So, even at these events, like, you know,

• 1:57:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:57:10Speaker 01

  Brad Pitt's at the Golden Globes, guys, and Bezos is going in and out. He has the special treatment.

• 1:57:18Rich Roll?

  It's a different thing. I mean, you're, you're, you're a nation at that point.

• 1:57:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. There's a lot of bodyguards. There's a lot of security. There's, I mean, it is, the operation is, the only thing that I can liken it to is,

• 1:57:34Speaker 01

  One of my good friends is grandson of Jimmy Carter. And when he got married, Jimmy Carter came to the wedding. And like, the wedding was a little bit about my friend John's wedding, and mostly about how to get Jimmy Carter in and out of a wedding.

• 1:57:51Speaker 01

  And you know, it's, it's a really wild operation to see. The Golden Globes is a wild operation, you know, and obviously like a target, you know, they're, they're checking under cars with mirrors and wands that can detect things. So just that operation is huge. And then getting Jeff Bezos into it is totally insane. And then he's just sitting, you know, eating cold food like we are and snacking and just like wondering what's next. So it was a totally surreal. And then his earpiece is like, your submarine's ready. Yeah. He just disappears through the floor. Yeah.

• 1:58:33Rich Roll?

  But, but no invite to the wedding.

• 1:58:35Speaker 01

  No, no, no invite to the wedding.

• 1:58:38Rich Roll?

  Michael, you get invited? I didn't go.

• 1:58:41Speaker 02

  I think I was on the tier two.

• 1:58:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:45Speaker 01

  Which was, I believe, apps, serving apps?

• 1:58:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. If Carrot Top couldn't go, I'd be there.

• 1:58:51Speaker 01

  Okay, sounds good.

• 1:58:52Rich Roll?

  We were talking a little bit ago about, about creativity, getting sober and, and realizing that not only can you still tap into your creativity, it becomes this like, you know, kind of rebirth of it. But how do each of you think about creativity now? Like when you sit down to write, like you're collaborating on this script, but you know, writing is still a solitary act and you kind of have to inhabit a certain state. Are you, you know, a Steven Pressfield, court the muse, get your ass in the chair kind of person? Is it a situation where you're dancing around and acting it out? Like, how does it work for you?

• 1:59:35Speaker 01

  I think Steven Pressfield's book is actually the one book on screenwriting that's actually of value and of creativity. It is just about presence. It's interesting because when you were talking about what it meant to be sober and just becoming present and relying on people, other people, for your sobriety, that is kind of how I think about creativity now is like, you know, I mean, it might sound woo-woo, but it is really about just trying to be a clear channel for what does God want of me, or the God, or whatever your higher power is. But like, you know, being of service in terms of like, you know, what does the

• 2:00:19Speaker 01

  world need now? What am I excited about? You know, what is coming through me? Who else can I serve? You know, who can be my co-conspirator? Who's a person I want to spend years with making a movie? Who do I want to hang out with? Who do I love? Who's gonna love me when times get hard? It's weirdly, I think, like, it's like, kind of creating the thing that we're all missing now, which is the village, which we have moved away from, and we all live in our pods with our computers, and if we're lucky, our spouse and our kids, you know. But like, and so I think it is, it's all that feeling of like, you know,

• 2:01:04Speaker 01

  trying to create something that matters and that can be given to other people. And the older I get, the more that I'm just trying to purify that channel and make it as clean as possible, because it's just not about me. And the more that it's about me, the muddier and grosser it feels. Of course, there are...

• 2:01:26Speaker 01

  Things inside of me like I needed this movie. I needed this movie as much as Michael needed this movie. I was fallow as an artist. I was scared to direct a movie without my brother. I was terrified that I was gonna make a movie and it was gonna suck and I was gonna be like, oh, he was the special sauce. I didn't wanna be, I didn't wanna be-

• 2:01:48Rich Roll?

  So that's the, that's the dark secret, like the insecurity. Like, oh, you know, they'll, they'll finally see that it was just all Mark.

• 2:01:55Speaker 01

  It was all Mark. And Mark is like, I'm, you know, like Mark said, I'm, I'm the guy who'll do the $150 movie and I'm more inward and Mark's very outward in the world.

• 2:02:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's much more visible.

• 2:02:06Speaker 01

  Much more visible and present. And he's a producer by nature. And, you know, he really likes, he, he, like, he wants to go to South by Southwest and give a talk about all the stuff we talk about. I'm just like, I'm just having enough trouble, you know, pushing this movie through the eye of a needle, you know? So I, we've always been that way, you know, where I'm more inward and he's more outward. And that's been an interesting part of us doing things separately is, is us having to become whole people again because you sort of compartmentalize and you, you know, he got really good at being outward and I got really good at being inward. So-

• 2:02:45Rich Roll?

  There's been a lot of ink spilled around this, you know, uh, this relationship, um, evolving.

• 2:02:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yes.

• 2:02:56Rich Roll?

  Is there anything you wanna say about that?

• 2:02:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you know, I would say that like, Mark and I started as two immigrant kids to Hollywood, you know, who were like linked arm in arm, like we talked about and felt like we needed to do everything in lockstep in order to make a splash enough to where we wouldn't have to like go back to Louisiana, go back to New Orleans, which is the story as we know of Hollywood is like people move and then they move back. They get sent home, you know? And, you know, as we progressed, you know, I think our first big hiccup is Mark became a famous actor. And all I wanted to do was to be, you know, the Coen Brothers 2.0 with him. And-

• 2:03:40Speaker 01

  That process was, you know, it was very difficult because, you know, to get a movie made, you have to obey that movie. That movie is so much bigger than you, you know, and Mark was very unavailable for a long time. And it took me a long time to figure out how to navigate that. I created a TV show called Togetherness and, and, you know, he was able to, to star in it and we were able to work on that together. And over time, it took us a long time to realize that, at my heart of hearts, I just wanted to be a filmmaker, a writer, director, and Mark didn't really want that, you know, he wanted to be an actor and a producer. But, you know, we're two guys who felt lucky to be here.

• 2:04:25Speaker 01

  We didn't want to rock the boat. You know, it, it was a long, it was like a very loving, conscious uncoupling, but it took a really long time. It was like a tough, tough process. You know, I felt like he was leaving me early on and he felt like I was leaving him later on. And it was kind of like, you know, getting like a super friendly divorce where we were trying to take care of each other as much as possible. And we're finally at a place now where we run this company together and we still support other people and we support each other in the ways that we can. But it was, it was a long time coming and, you

• 2:05:09Speaker 01

  know, it, it was tough on me. I mean, it definitely the reason why I didn't make a movie for 14 years and, you know, it took me, it, that was what was, you know, super scary about, you know, making a new movie and, and, you know, but, you know, I just tried to keep it small and trust my heart. And luckily this thing came out to be a dream come true.

• 2:05:34Rich Roll?

  So it's so much more than just, this is my first time directing without my brother.

• 2:05:38Speaker 01

  Oh, it's so much more. It's all my worst fears.

• 2:05:41Rich Roll?

  Because if you could just, you know, get some... Momentum with this, then it alleviates whatever

• 2:05:48Speaker 01

  It does.

• 2:05:49Rich Roll?

  Weird tension and energy, you know,

• 2:05:50Speaker 01

  It alleviates tension.

• 2:05:52Rich Roll?

  Relationship with your brother.

• 2:05:53Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:05:54Rich Roll?

  Cause if you're both fully expressed in doing what you're doing, then you can come together.

• 2:05:58Speaker 01

  Then we can come together and actually be brothers and make art when it makes sense for us to make art together. But no, it was absolutely terrifying. And, you know, just, yeah, I mean, I, you know, the fear is like, yeah, I'm, Mark is the special sauce. I can't make anything without him. He doesn't want to make movies with me, so I don't make movies anymore. That's honestly was in the back of my head the whole time, you know?

• 2:06:26Rich Roll?

  Well, this was the growth and evolution that you needed. Like you needed, you needed to do this as an artist. For yourself.

• 2:06:34Speaker 01

  I did. I deeply, deeply needed it. And, um, and I think similar to how you guys have talked about with AA, like, you know, I, I had probably seven scripts. They were all more expensive. I hadn't made a movie in 14 years. So people in Hollywood are like, yeah, you're not a filmmaker anymore. You, you gotta make a movie recently to show them that you're a filmmaker and you're still good. Those movies were more expensive. There were a lot more personal stories about me, which I can tell those stories now, but like, I tried to move a lot of those stories forward and it was a really tough time with the pandemic and with the strikes. And, you know, the timing just didn't work and I just kept retreating, kept retreating, kept retreating. And it felt like, it felt negative at first.

• 2:07:19Speaker 01

  And then I realized I was coming back to my roots and, you know, how I sort of invented this way of making films, which is like using real people and telling their stories and honoring them. And, you know, doing it handmade in a small city somewhere or a medium sized city somewhere.

• 2:07:36Rich Roll?

  And Where no one will bother us.

• 2:07:38Speaker 01

  Where no one will bother us. Exactly. And, but it was ultimately, I think, just serving Michael and his story and knowing that it wasn't about me. And then I could really focus on him. That to me was my personal linchpin because I don't have that thing in me. That's just like, oh, my story needs to get out there. This needs to be told. I, I'd much rather serve somebody else. And once we got into that pipeline, I was like, there was, it just flowed like that.

• 2:08:08Rich Roll?

  One of the reasons why I think it's being really well received, and we should say like, we're recording this before it's out in the world, like we're talking about film festival audiences. So it's like, these people want to like the movie, you know, but all the reviews are like incredibly good right now.

• 2:08:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:08:23Rich Roll?

  I think it speaks to this yearning that we have for something that feels real and authentic, you know, and, and the movies are just, they're so big now, they're so, they're so, you know, special affected out and the stories are so, you know, unrelatable. Everything is supersized so much that

• 2:08:46Speaker 01

  And every character is perfect.

• 2:08:47Rich Roll?

  We haven't been served, like we haven't been nourished, you know, with just like the human story that we can relate to, that reminds us that we're human when we see people that, that look real and feel real because they are real people and they're just having a human problem that they're trying to figure out.

• 2:09:05Speaker 01

  And there was so much value in like casting Michael and it's, he's the guy. This, this essentially happened in spirit and a lot of these events are true. That was a huge value to me is because I was after exactly that is like feeling something that is undeniably real and has value. And, you know, I think there are some good superhero movies out there, but I said this once at a SAG Screen Actors Guild event and I thought it was going to be a lot more controversial than it was, but I don't think people's thinking was, I'm not trying to say I was so advanced, but I just think people were not quite thinking

• 2:09:50Speaker 01

  this way, but I think the younger generation is thinking this way. And the, my idea around it is that our cultural mythology is broken. People talk about this across various mediums, but I think it's actually most visible in filmmaking because ultimately our cultural mythology in America right now is represented in a superhero movie. And, and that myth is

• 2:10:15Speaker 01

  There's bad people and there's good people. We're the good people. And the bad people are very, very scary. But what we need to do is lift weights and buy more guns and kill all those bad people. And when we do that, everything will be good. And nothing could be more broken. Nothing could be more true in terms of our foreign policy. Nothing could be, you know, more dangerous for this world and where we're going. And, you know, I think, you know, you know, I'm not, not trying to save the world with these tiny little movies, but, you know, Joseph Campbell said, "Stories are equipment for living." And it took me a long, long time to understand what that really meant. You said it earlier.

• 2:10:56Speaker 01

  It's like, you know, a story is a way to change people's minds and change people's culture. I saw it with Transparent. You know, people had no tolerance for trans people. And suddenly, people were watching this show and there was a trans person in their living room and they were laughing and enjoying them and watching them operate in the world. And, and so, you know, to, to be able to contribute to our cultural mythology and to tell stories about people who are trying to recover and, and, you know, two steps forward, one step backwards, and making us laugh and falling in love and getting their hearts broken. And, um, you know, and frankly, like, using Michael's journey and the courage that he

• 2:11:38Speaker 01

  displayed to recover and to stay sober, that is additive to our culture. Um, and it's additive to your Saturday night when you're like, "Boy, that was a tough week," you know? Because I think the superhero movies feel really good in the moment. And then you go home and they just feel so far away. You know, they're not really like nourishing the soul in a way that, you know, stories can.

• 2:12:04Speaker 02

  I think you're not leaving talking about it. You're just like, "Oh, yeah, that was good."

• 2:12:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:12:08Speaker 02

  You know?

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:12:09Speaker 02

  And I think the best thing about our movie is that like... There's conversation afterward, you know, like when we did test screenings, like, you know, like Jay would ask a question and the audience was like split and he's like, "We have a movie now." Because now that audience can go and talk about, "Well, I saw it as this. Did you see it as that?" You know, and I don't know, I just personally like, I like seeing movies that have flawed characters, that are trying to kind of do their best in their everyday life, but still mess up, you know, like, my guy is by no means, no one's perfect. And that's the whole thing that I think we need to, because I think so much of the superhero movies, these

• 2:12:52Speaker 02

  people are perfect, you know, or, you know.

• 2:12:56Speaker 01

  Or they have flaws in very like, um, simple ways that just, you know, it just feels like a token flaw.

• 2:13:04Rich Roll?

  I mean, I think it's very astute. This actually came up on the podcast I was doing yesterday with this like Jungian psychotherapist and he was talking about, you know, how modern culture has been, you know, drained of a shared mythology and we've outsourced it to, you know, basically the superhero movies that we see. And these are the stories that create, you know, our kind of sense of meaning, you know, in the world, which is really fascinating, but obviously makes sense when, you know, we become more secular and that we don't have the kind of community gathering spots and the, you know, spiritual institutions and churches and things like that. Like what are we gathering around? Well, we're gathering around, you know, the cinema and these ideas that we're, you know, we're all kind of collectively absorbing

• 2:13:49Rich Roll?

  simultaneously. But for the filmmaker who does want to speak to the human condition, given the business model of Hollywood right now, they have to do it within the context of a superhero story. And there are good versions of that and not so good ones. So, you know, when, when I think about that, I think about. Like what Tony Gilroy is doing with Andor, which I think is just some of the most exceptional storytelling. Well, Michael Clayton is like one of the best movies ever. It's my favorite movie. I literally watch it every three months.

• 2:14:21Speaker 02

  It's brilliant. It's like reading the bible. I actually, I actually saw a clip of Clooney the other day. He was talking about that last scene where he's driving in the car. And they're like, it's some of your best acting ever. Like, what, like, how are you doing this?

• 2:14:33Rich Roll?

  I saw that clip.

• 2:14:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And, and he was like, well, to be honest with you, I, we didn't know what we were doing. This was like the last shot and Tony was just like, yeah, just go in the car and just ask to go somewhere. And everybody on the street in New York is yelling, Clooney, Clooney, George. While that sacred moment was happening.

• 2:14:50Rich Roll?

  He's just trying not to laugh the whole time. But it's just incredible for people who haven't seen it, it's this like very long shot. He's in the back of the cab and he's just driving. This is the end of the movie. Which is like the quintessential, like, and like, this is how movies in the seventies ended. You know, it's like, it's a, it's definitely a, you know, like a shout out to that. It's very effective, but then you hear like, oh, this is, well, now, like when you make a movie, what you were saying, like, I'm on a street in Baltimore. It's like 2am and they, you know, there's, there's a drug deal going on around the corner. The cops are about to come and all that kind of stuff. The reality of that. But Kathleen Kennedy should put Tony Gilroy in charge of anything having to do with Star Wars.

• 2:15:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100%.

• 2:15:30Rich Roll?

  For, you know, for, for, you know,

• 2:15:33Speaker 02

  Years and years to come.

• 2:15:34Rich Roll?

  As long as he'll, he's willing to do it and he should make every decision regarding it.

• 2:15:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:39Rich Roll?

  Let's, uh, let's end this with a little insider or inspiration for the aspiring artist. You know, I think one, there's, there's one thing that both of you guys share, which is that both of you are people who pretty early in life had a good sense of what you wanted to do. You know, and I think that's unusual, like that's rare. Not everybody feels that way. But I think everybody has some kind of creative inspiration. They want to give voice to some idea that they have and, you know, in any number of ways. And society doesn't do a very good job of encouraging that. So, you know, how would you?

• 2:16:16Speaker 02

  How would you give words to that person who's? I mean, it sounds cliche, but like, don't give up, you know, like, I had, similar to you, like, so many jobs that like, like, didn't go my way, you know, over and over and over again, testing for shows, doing stuff, and I'm like, why, like, why am I still doing that? Like, you know, that thought of like, is it time to go back to Baltimore? Is it time to call it? You know, and it just takes one person in the field of Hollywood to be yes. And then, I think Jay even said it to me once, like, Hollywood loves being the

• 2:16:53Speaker 02

  second yes, you know? And, you know, like, just do, do whatever you, like, fail, fail over and over and over again, get back up, fail, fail some more, but just like, know that like, no matter what, like, if this is what you really want to do for your life, anything in the creative field, just do it, and not worry about what other people are telling you to do or not do, you know? And I, I would be remiss if I didn't, since we mentioned Zach earlier, you know, my siblings and my cousin started a foundation in his

• 2:17:34Speaker 02

  name, ZTP Foundation, that helps out people in Zach's age range in Maryland to, to basically like, sponsor them to go to rehab. And so- That's cool. Yeah, and I just wanted to make sure I mentioned that before, because, you know, like, especially with sobriety too, like, you know, the term, keep coming back, but also like, just stay, because like- Don't leave before the miracle. Yeah, yeah, don't leave before the miracle, because right now, I am living, like, the most miraculous life, and it's 100% due to my sobriety. And I'm so grateful, like, every day, you know, that like-

• 2:18:21Speaker 02

  That this little tiny movie about my life, based on my life and made in my hometown with family and friends and with somebody that took a chance on me. It can happen, you know, it really can. And it's, and I'm living proof. And I just am so happy. I absolutely love my life today and I was this close to missing it all.

• 2:18:50Speaker 01

  Well, I can't top that.

• 2:18:52Speaker 02

  That's pretty good. That's a pretty good one.

• 2:18:54Speaker 01

  That's a pretty good one.

• 2:18:55Speaker 02

  I mean, you can definitely top it. You're like.

• 2:18:59Speaker 01

  I mean, I guess the extra piece of advice that I would give for up and coming filmmakers and artists, everyone is a little bit of a riff on The Perfect Day, which I know you're a huge fan of. And it's, you know, it's, I call it making good days. And I feel like my job is just to make the best day I can make on any given day. And I, I do a lot of thinking about what's going to happen tomorrow, the night before. If something doesn't feel right or if I feel too overloaded, I'll try and slide something to later in the week.

• 2:19:38Speaker 01

  And it's specifically with art making, it really comes down to, are you going to be making art tomorrow? Are you going to do it? Because like I said, a lot of people like to talk about making art and they don't make art. It's also way easier to talk about making art. Making art involves, you know, fail, repeat, fail, repeat. So the other thing that's really tricky, and there's no judgment on this, but a lot of people want to have made art. They want to be at the Oscars. They want to be at the Golden Globes, whatever it may be. And I'll just put it out here this way is the real artists, most of them don't want to be at those events.

• 2:20:22Speaker 01

  They would rather be at home continuing to make their art. So in terms of merging those things, in terms of making a really good day and making your art, even at this point in my life, I find it hard to carve out two or three hours to make art on a Tuesday. I have to really be concerted about it because. You know, people are banging on your door to do everything in this world, to pay bills, to, you know, to move your damn car, to whatever it is that's going on. People are always banging on your door to do stuff, and it's never to make an original, um, you know, earth-shaking, earth-shattering piece of art. You know? No one is doing that. That is up to you to do it.

• 2:21:06Rich Roll?

  There's too many emails from your kid's school that you have to read.

• 2:21:09Speaker 01

  How do people do it?

• 2:21:10Rich Roll?

  I don't know.

• 2:21:11Speaker 01

  That could be a full-time job. Full-time job is answering your kid's school's emails and attending their events, um, and doing fundraising for your kid's school.

• 2:21:20Rich Roll?

  But you're happy you had them and you love them.

• 2:21:21Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Hundred percent. As one of my friends said, having children is 51% worth it. Um, but yeah, I, I really do believe that, you know, and, and really be honest with yourself is like, how much art do you want to make in a day, you know, and really tuning in? Cause the, the more that I go, it, it really is, it's less about making art and more just about me being true to myself and just witnessing how much art is gonna come out of that. Because I'm not really interested anymore in forcing art because that creates collapse, you know, like overworking creates collapse, you know, and of course we have to feed our families and we have to do all the things that we need to do.

• 2:22:04Speaker 01

  But, I mean, to me, it ultimately it comes down to tuning into who you are and listening. And that's what's gonna tell you who, what you uniquely have to offer the world. Because, like you said, we all have our heroes and we want to be like them, but sometimes we're not like them ultimately, or, or what we uniquely have to offer is not what they have to offer. Um, tuning into that thing is, is not what's taught in film school. It's not taught in our culture. That's why your pad podcast is so incredible is, is it helps me tune in to, to, to what I'm doing and why I'm here and, and what gives me life.

• 2:22:46Speaker 01

  So I think that's the best piece of advice I can give to any artist.

• 2:22:51Rich Roll?

  It's pretty good advice, don't you think?

• 2:22:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, he's the killer.

• 2:22:54Rich Roll?

  He's pretty good.

• 2:22:56Speaker 01

  He knows what he's doing.

• 2:22:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's about, it's about, uh, you know, integrity with self, like integrating who you are. Like your art is an expression of your authentic voice. You're not out there to like.

• 2:23:11Rich Roll?

  Get invited to a party or be validated for it. Like the reward is the work, which is a reflection of the inner self.

• 2:23:20Speaker 02

  And I've been to those, been to those parties where like, I wasn't, you know, sober. And we would be writing the biggest screenplay ever.

• 2:23:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:29Speaker 02

  You know, midway through the night, you know, doing all this, like all that stuff. We never talked about that screenplay again, you know? It's like doing the work and actually.

• 2:23:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because the, the people who are, who are actually doing the thing are not at the parties. Cause they're doing the thing and even if they're, and they're probably invited and they choose not to go. Because like they're more compelled by, you know, the pull, the yearn to like, express themselves. And, you know, time's precious. And if you're doing that at a high level, there are people pulling on you all the time and tempting you with, you know, all kinds of delicious offers to go here, do this or that.

• 2:24:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:24:06Rich Roll?

  Um, speaking of which, like the movie's not out yet, but are, is your phone ringing? Are you getting, is this like, is there like, you know, a little bit of like, activity going on?

• 2:24:16Speaker 02

  Um, there's a little.

• 2:24:17Rich Roll?

  In a way there wasn't before.

• 2:24:18Speaker 02

  There's a little bit of stuff happening, um, but not, you know, nothing, nothing crazy yet. The movie hasn't come out yet, but I'm, I'm.

• 2:24:25Rich Roll?

  I just want, I want it to come out. I want it to be super successful. And all I want for you is to like, go back to Baltimore and just walk down the street and have like, and you can be like Clooney in the back of the cab with like the.

• 2:24:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:24:37Rich Roll?

  Stress hole. Like hometown hero, you know?

• 2:24:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:24:41Rich Roll?

  That would be.

• 2:24:42Speaker 01

  We are having a huge premiere in Baltimore.

• 2:24:44Rich Roll?

  Oh, you are?

• 2:24:44Speaker 01

  At the classic theater there.

• 2:24:46Speaker 02

  Yes, the Senator Theater, uh, on September 10th, I believe. And, um, yeah, it's.

• 2:24:52Rich Roll?

  Doing anything here in LA?

• 2:24:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're gonna have a few events here. We're gonna show some, show it videos. Well, yeah.

• 2:24:58Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:24:59Speaker 01

  I would love to be there.

• 2:25:01Rich Roll?

  If I can get anything out of there.

• 2:25:01Speaker 01

  Come on.

• 2:25:02Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 2:25:03Speaker 01

  If you wanna see it again, that'd be amazing. Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna have a few events here. We're gonna have premieres in New York. We're gonna, Michael and I are gonna do an old school road show where we go to like 10 or 12 cities. We're gonna do press, we're gonna introduce movies, we're gonna really personalize the experience.

• 2:25:18Rich Roll?

  Like, that's like a, that's like a Kevin Smith vibe.

• 2:25:21Speaker 01

  It is, yeah, we're gonna go like.

• 2:25:22Speaker 02

  Boston, Chicago, Austin, Houston, Baltimore.

• 2:25:26Speaker 02

  Nashville, Seattle, and New York.

• 2:25:29Rich Roll?

  And they're gonna fly us around and we're gonna like go and be there in person and you know, Michael's gonna cry onstage after and say he's glad to be alive.

• 2:25:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm super vulnerable. And we gotta thank IFC for all of that.

• 2:25:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, IFC and Seppan Films.

• 2:25:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, Seppan Films have been, Josh has been incredible.

• 2:25:44Rich Roll?

  Well, you guys did an amazing job. It's a really beautiful movie. Thank you for having us and thank you for supporting us. Yeah, thanks for spending a couple hours with me, man. This was great. It's the dream, man. This is awesome. I'm in my favorite show. What are you talking about, man?

• 2:25:59Speaker 02

  Secretly, I wanna just host like a movies podcast, you know, like.

• 2:26:02Rich Roll?

  You could do that, Rich. You could do that.

• 2:26:04Speaker 02

  We'll see. Anyway, appreciate you guys.

• 2:26:07Rich Roll?

  Thank you, Rich. Yeah, thanks so much for doing this and. Peace.

• 2:26:11Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 2:26:12Rich Roll?

  Thank you. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or a comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the

• 2:26:57Rich Roll?

  help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com/sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor. And of course, our theme music was created

• 2:27:37Rich Roll?

  all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Bye. Namaste.