130: Lessons and Guidelines from 430 A.D. That Still Hold Up Today. "Concerning Military Affairs."

0:00:00 - Opening 0:08:00 - Concerning Military Affairs, by Flavius Vegetius. https://amzn.to/2K1W25G 1:36:35 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 1:38:06 - Support. 2:05:26 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 130 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.

• 0:09Jocko Willink?

  Caesar, when he perceived that the 7th Legion, which stood close by him, was also hard pressed by the enemy, directed the tribunes of the soldiers to effect a junction of the legions gradually, and make their charge upon the enemy with a double front. Which having been done, since they brought assistance to the one to the other, nor feared lest their rear should be surrounded by the enemy, they began to stand their ground more boldly and to fight more courageously. In the meantime, the soldiers of the two legions, which had been in the rear of the army, as a guard for the baggage train, upon the battle being reported to them,

• 0:54Jocko Willink?

  quickened their pace and were seen by the enemy on top of the hill. And Titus, having gained possession of the camp of the enemy, and observed from higher ground what was going on in our camp, sent the 10th Legion as a relief to our men, who, when they had learned from the flight of the horses and the sutlers, in what position the affair was, and in how great danger the camp and the legion and the commander were involved, left undone nothing to dispatch.

• 1:30Jocko Willink?

  By their arrival, so great a change of matters was made, that our men, even those who had fallen down, exhausted with wounds, leaned on their shields and renewed the fight.

• 1:46Jocko Willink?

  Then the camp retainers, though unarmed, seeing the enemy completely dismayed, attacked them though they were armed.

• 1:56Jocko Willink?

  The horsemen too, that they might, by their valor, blot the disgrace of their flight, thrust themselves before the legionary soldiers in all parts of the battle.

• 2:10Jocko Willink?

  But the enemy,

• 2:13Jocko Willink?

  even in the last hope of safety, displayed such great courage, that when the foremost of them had fallen,

• 2:22Jocko Willink?

  the next stood upon those who were prostrate and fought from on top of their bodies. When these were overthrown and their corpses heaped up together, those who survived cast their weapons against our men as from a mound and returned our darts which had fallen short between our armies, so that it ought not to be concluded, that men of such great courage had injudiciously dared to pass a very broad river, ascend very high banks and come to a very disadvantageous place, since their greatness of spirit had rendered these actions easy,

• 3:08Jocko Willink?

  although in themselves

• 3:11Jocko Willink?

  very difficult.

• 3:19Jocko Willink?

  So,

• 3:22Jocko Willink?

  war is eternal

• 3:27Jocko Willink?

  and some things do not change. And in war, we see the brutal examples of savagery

• 3:38Jocko Willink?

  and we also see the courage and sacrifice that's

• 3:44Jocko Willink?

  hard to find anywhere else. Like in that passage right there, unarmed men attacking the enemy. And even the enemy showing courage, climbing on top of stacked bodies of their brethren to gain a little bit of high ground.

• 4:04Jocko Willink?

  Think about that, gaining the high ground by climbing on the backs of your fallen comrades.

• 4:14Jocko Willink?

  Now, that is war and that account of war is from the book, The Gallic Wars, which was written by Julius Caesar himself, although he refers to himself in the third person.

• 4:31Jocko Willink?

  And that war lasted from around 58 B.C. to 50 B.C., eight years of fighting between the Gauls, who were a Celtic race of people in what is now France and Belgium. I guess you'd say Celtic.

• 4:52Jocko Willink?

  And of course, the Romans were known for their military strength and in the future, I'm sure we'll go a little bit deeper into some of Caesar's writing. But today, we're going to look more at an overall assessment

• 5:11Jocko Willink?

  and instruction, really, about the Roman legions, which, as I said, are known as an incredibly powerful military fighting force that conquered much of Europe and parts of Africa and the Middle East over time. And the writing that we're looking at today comes from a guy by the name of Vegetius. Now, his full name was Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus.

• 5:52Jocko Willink?

  But thankfully, we can just refer to him as Vegetius. Not much is known about him. It's actually not even known 100% if Vegetius was actually in the military. It seems as if he was, and even if he was, it's likely that he didn't have any great stature or rank inside the Roman military. But he did capture some incredibly important information.

• 6:23Jocko Willink?

  And he called it the Epidemo Ray Militaris, which translates basically into the epitome of the art of war. Sometimes it's also called De Ray Militaria, which means on matters of the military.

• 6:43Jocko Willink?

  And the book is estimated to have been written around 430 AD, so it's several hundred years after Caesar's reign. But this book that he wrote became a guide for warfare throughout the Middle Ages. And interestingly, this is even, it stayed even after we had gunpowder. And it was carried oftentimes by general officers and their staff throughout Europe. And there are even reports that George Washington carried an annotated copy with him, which, as I dug into it, may or may not be completely true, but at a minimum, at a minimum, he

• 7:25Jocko Willink?

  paraphrased Vegetius's book in his first address to Congress in 1790, when he said, "To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."

• 7:43Jocko Willink?

  So Vegetius put this information together through, at a minimum, keen observation of how the Roman legions and the Roman military worked. And the book has stood the test of time, so I think we might as well see what we can get out of it.

• 8:04Jocko Willink?

  What do you think? Yes, sir. Agree? Check. It starts off strong, we'll say that.

• 8:13Jocko Willink?

  Starts off right here.

• 8:16Jocko Willink?

  "Victory in war does not depend entirely upon numbers or mere courage. Only skill and discipline will ensure it."

• 8:28Jocko Willink?

  It's a common theme. Hmm hmm. We find that the Romans owed the conquest of the world to no other cause than their continual military training, exact observance of discipline in their camps, and unwearied cultivation of other arts of war.

• 8:49Jocko Willink?

  Does this mean I'm just gonna be talking about discipline for the next, as long as I'm alive? Yes. It's entirely possible, isn't it? Hmm hmm, yeah.

• 8:59Jocko Willink?

  It's interesting that he says it's important than just mere, more important than just mere courage. Courage is important. Hmm. But there's something more important, discipline. Yes, and skill. And skill, skill. You like that part? Yes. Okay. Romans, okay, they thoroughly understood the importance of hardening them. So he's talking about what the Romans, he's talking about the Romans, that's the they. They thoroughly understood the importance of hardening them by continual practice and of training them to every maneuver that might happen in the line and in action. Nor were they less strict in punishing idleness and sloth.

• 9:41Jocko Willink?

  See, sometimes I stick up for like our generation or being modern, saying like, no, you know, we're kind of hardcore too. But then I read stuff like that and I kind of wonder.

• 9:52Jocko Willink?

  I kind of wonder. The courage of a soldier is heightened by his knowledge of his profession. And he only wants an opportunity to execute what is, he is convinced he has been perfectly taught. So that makes sense. I did an interview a little while ago. And it hasn't come out yet. It was with NPR, NPR, National Public Radio. But he was asking me, he had heard me say in an interview that, like, I wanted to go to war. And he was kind of surprised about that, but that's exactly what this is talking about. You train and you're convinced that you've been taught well and then you want to go get after it. Especially when you're young. Yeah.

• 10:37Jocko Willink?

  You have nothing to lose.

• 10:40Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, a handful of men inured to war proceed to certain victory. While on the contrary, numerous armies of raw and undisciplined troops are but multitudes of men dragged to the slaughter.

• 10:59Jocko Willink?

  No big deal.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:00Jocko Willink?

  Multitudes of undisciplined men, you're just getting dragged to the slaughter. That's life. That's life.

• 11:09Jocko Willink?

  Oh, and here's another point. For it is certain that the less a man is acquainted with the sweets of life, the less reason he has to be afraid of death. Interesting. The young soldier therefore ought to have a lively eye. Oh, this is, he's just talking about

• 11:29Jocko Willink?

  what, what the young recruits should be like, what kind of qualities they're supposed to have. The young soldier therefore ought to have a lively eye, should carry his head erect, his chest and shoulders be broad, his shoulders muscular and brawny, his fingers long, his arms strong, and his waist small. Going back to posture. Remember I brought that up with Jordan B. Peterson?

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:52Jocko Willink?

  He's got that chapter in his book, Stand Up Straight With Your Shoulders Back. I'm like, that's how you get indoctrinated into the military? That's been going on since the Roman times. There's something to it. I'm here to tell you. Talking more about the recruits, he says, they should be taught the use of their arms by constant and daily exercise. But this essential custom has long been abolished by the relaxation introduced by a long peace.

• 12:19Jocko Willink?

  Can't accept that when things get easy. And you know, again, working with businesses all the time, it's, it's real easy when the times are good. Like the economy's good. Right now, the economy's good, right? So people are just kind of making money and everything is good. And they don't train as hard, they don't prepare as much.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:38Jocko Willink?

  Happens in everything.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz we kind of subconscious, well, it seems like in any way, subconsciously rely on that kind of push, like the, you know, the stress will push you, you know? Like if the economy's not good, it's like, oh, it kind of pushes you to like, oh, we gotta, we gotta work or whatever.

• 12:53Jocko Willink?

  And it kind of goes. Okay, do you, you know how some people, I think you actually do this. Some people perform better under pressure.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:01Jocko Willink?

  The reason I say you, cuz you'll, you'll have a video to make, let's say, and if there's no deadline. Let's just say there's no real, there's no real

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Urgency.

• 13:11Jocko Willink?

  Or urgency. Like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not expecting to see that. But then sometimes there's a deadline, like for a muster video.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:17Jocko Willink?

  And, and there comes the deadline and boom, there's the video.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:22Jocko Willink?

  Midnight, one o'clock in the morning.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:24Jocko Willink?

  Into my email.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:26Jocko Willink?

  You need that. You need that structure and discipline, young man.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  It does help, yeah, for sure. Hundred percent. Yeah, even, even time stuff, like if you're like, hey, meet me at around seven, bro.

• 13:39Jocko Willink?

  That's not good.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it'll be more, it'll be around whatever time. You might as well have said show up when you want.

• 13:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I rolled the dice a little bit today because I said 12:30 ish. Did you notice that?

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Yes. To me, when you put a number, I just assumed that's the number.

• 13:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. That's how.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  This is how.

• 13:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. That's probably good.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're right. I think you're right. You're right.

• 13:58Jocko Willink?

  I think, yeah, you, you do, you do pretty good with being on time for me, actually.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well.

• 14:05Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna say you're batting a pretty good average.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 14:09Jocko Willink?

  Did you see someone asked how they could get your job?

• 14:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:13Jocko Willink?

  And I told them.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  To kill me.

• 14:14Jocko Willink?

  Kill you.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Alright, there you go. I guess we know now.

• 14:18Jocko Willink?

  Now you've got the, the price on your head.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:21Jocko Willink?

  Someone else, maybe they can be on time.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  That's, because really, that's all it requires. Press record, be on time.

• 14:27Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Boom, easy money.

• 14:31Jocko Willink?

  Alright, now he's talking a little bit about initial training, going back to the book. The first thing the soldiers are to be taught is the military step, which can only be acquired by constant practice of marching quick and together. Nor is anything of more consequence either on the march or in the line, than they should keep their ranks with the greatest exactness. For troops who march in irregular and disorderly manner are always in great danger of being defeated.

• 15:00Jocko Willink?

  And I I read that part so I could read this part. They should march with the common military step twenty miles in five summer hours and with full step, which is quicker twenty-four miles in the same number of hours. So these guys can march. These guys can march. And we've talked a lot about foot patrols. And in the it's in the SEAL teams, there's something called a forced march.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:23Jocko Willink?

  Which is like you're on a road. There's no threat. You're just marching.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:27Jocko Willink?

  And you're trying to move from point A to point B. Don't do a lot of that in the SEAL teams. You don't even do really much in the, well, I can't say that. But there's a difference. That's a forced march. We called it a forced road march. And then there's patrolling where you're tactical and you're scanning your field of fire. These guys are talking about a forced road march. You're just on the road. It's basically you're you're going as fast as you can.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  So you're it's just like maybe what you don't have a ride or something. I mean, in your case.

• 15:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wouldn't have a ride for whatever reason. Well, in the SEAL teams, we usually had a ride.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Right. That's why you don't do as much of it. Yeah, got you.

• 16:02Jocko Willink?

  Oh, here's a good one. Learn to swim. Every young soldier without exception should in the summer months be taught to swim. For it is sometimes impossible to pass rivers on bridges, but the flying and pursuing army both are often obliged to swim over them. A sudden melting of snow or fall of rain often makes them overflow their banks. And in such a situation, the danger is as great from ignorance in swimming as from the enemy. It's I kind of take it for granted that people know how to swim, but it is not true. And when I figured that out when I went to Navy boot camp, because you'd think if you were joining the Navy.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Maybe, yeah.

• 16:42Jocko Willink?

  You'd know how to swim.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:43Jocko Willink?

  No, not true.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:45Jocko Willink?

  Not true at all. People did not know. A decent amount of people did not know how to swim.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm with you. I'm sure I come from Kauai where, you know, everyone knows how to swim.

• 16:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Even at like two years old.

• 16:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  People, you know, you know how to swim because you're on an island.

• 16:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  And it's all but yeah, man, there's people, yeah, straight up. Some people haven't even seen the water, you know, like the ocean or whatever.

• 17:05Jocko Willink?

  Well, there's definitely people that haven't seen the ocean.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:07Jocko Willink?

  I mean, when I went to when I went to SEAL training, there was guys that had never been to the ocean before.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:11Jocko Willink?

  They were from Iowa.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:13Jocko Willink?

  You know, no, they're just salt. Why does the water taste salty?

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was.

• 17:19Jocko Willink?

  So yeah, parents teach your kids how to swim. They have those good programs now where they do the little floating programs. So like even a little baby can float themselves and stuff.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  But you can look that up on YouTube and learn how to teach your, your like baby to swim.

• 17:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  It's incredibly effective. Yeah.

• 17:35Jocko Willink?

  I'm throwing the, uh, what's that called?

• 17:39Speaker 01

  The safety tip.

• 17:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the safety tip. Yeah. That's, that's, you gotta, you know, when you're doing anything in the water, you gotta be careful. Really careful. Even when you're training in the water, you gotta be really careful. One up, one down is the rule. Like if one person's doing some training, someone's gotta stand there and watch them. Make sure that they're safe.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:56Jocko Willink?

  But yeah, if you don't know how to swim, learn how to swim.

• 18:00Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book.

• 18:03Jocko Willink?

  No state can either be happy or secure that is remiss and negligent in the discipline of its troops.

• 18:15Jocko Willink?

  For it is not profusion of riches or excess of luxury that can influence our enemies to court or respect us. This can only be affected by the terror of our arms.

• 18:30Jocko Willink?

  It is an observation of Cato that misconduct in the common affairs of life may be retrieved, but that it is quite otherwise in war where errors are fatal and without remedy and are followed by immediate punishment. For the consequences of engaging an enemy without skill or courage is that part of the army is left on the field of battle and those who remain receive such an impression from their defeat that they dare not afterwards look the enemy in the face. It's powerful stuff right there.

• 19:06Jocko Willink?

  This can only be affected by the terror of our arms.

• 19:11Jocko Willink?

  It's underlying, there's a little underlying threats of violence and everything that, I shouldn't say everything, but they're just there.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  I'll say everything.

• 19:18Jocko Willink?

  Let me, let me, let me break it down a little bit more. Cause I don't want to make a broad statement about the whole world. But when I was a young guy in a CO platoon, there was definitely underlying threats of violence. I mean, even with a big smile on your face, even amongst total bros, like the, the, the thing that's underlying is like, well, you know.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:34Jocko Willink?

  If this escalates, you know, we know how that could go.

• 19:40Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, have the discipline. Train.

• 19:49Jocko Willink?

  I don't know why I'm finding this book like almost comical in how just on point it is with everything I think about.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  I kind of noticed that.

• 20:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm just, I mean, the whole opening thing, the whole opening, the opening onslaught of discipline. You know, I was straight up into it. So, back to the book, "To accustom soldiers to carry burdens is also an essential part of discipline.

• 20:19Jocko Willink?

  Recruits in particular should be obliged frequently to carry a weight of not less than sixty pounds exclusive of their arms and to march with it in the ranks. This is because on difficult expeditions, they often find themselves under the necessity of carrying their provisions as well as their arms, nor will they find this troublesome when inured to it by custom which makes everything easy." Boom, there you go.

• 20:43Jocko Willink?

  Wear the gear that you're, wear the gear that you're gonna fight with, get used to it.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Get used to it.

• 20:47Jocko Willink?

  I used, I used to talk about this with like, discipline equals freedom, the whole idea of it. I'd say if you have the discipline to wear your gear all the time, then you'll have freedom of movement when you need it.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:57Jocko Willink?

  You know, and I kind of felt like that was a stretch. Does that seem like a stretch?

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Well, no, not anymore.

• 21:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, not anymore, just kind of pull it back into the non-stretch zone.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, for, for sure, because like, yeah, okay, so you have all your gear on, right? And Jody Minnick was kind of talking about this, I think, when he was like, "Oh, man", you know, like, "It was just a pain in the ass to wear and all this stuff." That feeling, that's a real feeling, man, this is a pain, all this gear, this is digging into my, you know, I'm not used to it or kind of thing, but man, you get a guy who's really used to it, but that's not even a factor.

• 21:30Jocko Willink?

  Not even a factor.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  You know, he's free from that.

• 21:31Jocko Willink?

  There's two things that happens, number one, you get used to it, number two, you figure out your gear, so that your gear works properly.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's like, yeah, you can.

• 21:38Jocko Willink?

  Cause, cause your gear, when you first put it on, no matter, you go to the best gear store in the world and you buy gear and it's not gonna fit you quite right, you're gonna have to make little modifications, you have to adjust it, you have to put the weight somewhere else. Now, in football, you wouldn't always wear your gear in practice, right?

• 21:54Speaker 01

  It, it was pretty designated, like, depending on the day, you know, so, you know, two days you have full gear, you know, two days you have just helmets and shoulder pads or whatever, but yeah, you were, you were what you were supposed to. Some guys would like, maybe not wear their mouthpiece or something like that, but it'd be rare. I think in the NFL like they won't wear their thigh pads or their hip.

• 22:15Jocko Willink?

  And that's just because it's a pain?

• 22:18Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't know. I can't really speak for, I think, I know that guys who run a lot and if you take out your thigh pads and your like hip protectors and stuff, it helps you run for sure. But you run that risk.

• 22:29Jocko Willink?

  Then you should train with it.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  You should train with it, but here's the thing though, if, if there's a rule, because some guys even in the game, they just won't wear it. They just simply won't wear, but you do run the risk of like if you get what's called a hip pointer, there's an injury called a hip pointer. It's basically your external obliques, they kind of overlap your hip bone, right? And when a helmet or something hits that and crushes your external oblique against your hip bone, it's called a hip pointer. And it's, it's a debilitating painful injury that can where even in everyday life, you're out of the game. You're out of the game and I've had it before. So hip protectors will help against that. So you run that risk, but you know, so it's up to you, man.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  I mean, I think in college, I know in high school, it's a, it's a rule. You gotta wear a hip, but um, I think in the NFL you don't have to.

• 23:20Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's good. I think the overall point is, and it sounds like the football was on board with it, train how you fight.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, wear the gear.

• 23:27Jocko Willink?

  Train how you fight.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  But it's tough too though in, in, and this goes for any contact situation, even obvi- and really in the military, but it's almost like so obvious in the military that it's a given. Where that you can't train exactly how you fight, you know?

• 23:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so you can't shoot each other.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and exactly right. So it's like I said, really obvious.

• 23:45Jocko Willink?

  I used to tell guys that. I used to be like, hey, unfortunately, I'd, you know, I'd be like, unfortunately, I can't put guys out here to actually kill you and you do the wrong thing.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Like you really want it. Yeah. Same thing for, for football as it turns out. Where you can't just have guys going live five days a week, you know?

• 24:02Jocko Willink?

  Give them some hip pointers or you'd be.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  All day, yeah.

• 24:05Jocko Willink?

  Actually, so he goes on to talk about. talks about some slack here going back to the book but negligence and sloth having by degrees introduced a total relaxation of discipline the soldiers began to think their armor too heavy as they seldom put it on they first requested leave from the emperor to lay aside the the curious and afterwards the helmet in consequence of this our troops and their engagements with the goths were often overwhelmed with their showers of arrows so there you go start taking that little shortcut and I like how he says by degrees like no one just wakes up in

• 24:46Jocko Willink?

  the morning and says I'm gonna be weaker now yeah I'm over this they just they just start to decay just a little bit yeah take a little shortcut yeah you know here's here's a here's a here's a workout a workout tip Jaco's workout tips I'm serious this is this is like something that goes through my head when I'm doing some exercise let's say it's squat day and let's say it's it's I'm doing the 20 rep squats which is just painful yes and I have that thought my head where sometimes you know be like oh man you know what just I'll just do 16 today yeah cuz you know like I mean I worked really hard yesterday and I'm kinda tired and you're still doing at least I did um you know

• 25:30Jocko Willink?

  what I don't you know blah blah blah and when I hear myself saying that I always think like that's the big that's the first step down down the slippery slope to decay and I'm not gonna do it yeah I'm not gonna do it have you ever have you ever skipped it come on be be real have you ever skipped it like you know what those doubts not doubts but those those thoughts of hey let me let me slack not skipping workout I mean have you ever given the only time the only time where I've been like you know what I'm not finishing this workout is like I'll hurt something oh and that's way different and and I've done it where I've done it where I haven't done that's a lesson learned like I've been like I remember one time I was squatting and I like felt a little you know you little twinge in your back yeah I got one of those and then I kept going and then I was

• 26:14Jocko Willink?

  debilitated I was like I was like not good but generally if yeah I know when I because because it's this that's why I'm saying this like that little conversation right there is a good conversation have with yourself because I think about I think about that little, you just give that little bit of slack that time. And it's not good, you know, it's like that just in my mind, I'm thinking that leads to more slack right there.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  It does.

• 26:40Jocko Willink?

  That leads to a little bit more slack next time, because next time you're gonna feel that way at fifteen reps instead of sixteen.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you've, even if it's subconsciously, you established a new little a precedent, which is kinda just the standard. Just a little bit, yes, exactly. So it's like, it's different if you're undefeated. Right? If you're undefeated, you're either undefeated or you're not undefeated, kinda thing. Once you're defeated, then you're kinda like, mm, okay, you know.

• 27:06Jocko Willink?

  Let it sneak in there.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:07Jocko Willink?

  It's part of you now.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. I gotta say, I'm defeated straight up. Oh my God. You know, I do the Metcon at the end, you know, I live and do Metcon. And it's, you know, good. And I will also straight up, I'll be honest that it doesn't happen very often. I mean, I talk a lot of trash, but it doesn't happen very often. But, oh yeah, there's times where I'll be like, ah, well, that workout was pretty solid. I'll do, I'll make deals with myself.

• 27:32Jocko Willink?

  That, that, that makes me mad and I, and I, I don't like that.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Actually hanging with you, it made me, gave me that mindset, which is a mindset I simply did not have.

• 27:42Jocko Willink?

  Go Defcore on that thing.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  No, but you know, you, how you said it makes you mad? Like, I never had that feeling, never had that feeling like, oh, why doesn't it make me? I just never thought of it that way, ever, like, not even a little bit. Didn't even consider thinking it that way. But now, yeah, when I feel it like, oh, maybe I'll do it tomorrow, I really don't feel, I actually have that response, where you kinda get mad at it.

• 28:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  At yourself, kinda thing. It's like you're split into two people.

• 28:05Jocko Willink?

  Positive thing.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  It is, it helps, right? Helps so much.

• 28:07Jocko Willink?

  That's a Defcore right there.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Straight up.

• 28:12Jocko Willink?

  Check. All right. Let's see, going back to the book, it was a constant custom among the old Romans to exercise both cavalry and infantry three times a month in.

• 28:25Jocko Willink?

  By marches of a certain length, the foot were obliged to march completely armed the distance of ten miles from the camp and return in the most exact order and with the military step which they changed and quickened on some part of the march. They made these marches not in plain and even ground only, but both cavalry and infantry were ordered into difficult and uneven places and to ascend or descend mountains to prepare them for all kinds of accidents and familiarize them with the different maneuvers that various situations of a country may require. This guy's put some miles in. Again, the reason that I wanted to mention that part is, it's not just, it's not just

• 29:10Jocko Willink?

  about wearing the gear, it's trying to simulate as closely as you can to the situation that you're gonna be in. Same thing with anything, same thing with sports, same thing with business, when you're training someone, when you're training someone for business, put them in that situation that they, as close as you can to what they're gonna be in.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:32Jocko Willink?

  Here it continues, "to enumerate the different nations so formidable of old, all which now are subject to the Romans would be tedious." So he's saying like, "We beat down so many people, we can't, we're not even gonna take the time to talk about them all." "But the security established by long peace has altered their dispositions, drawn them off from military to civil pursuits, and infused into them a love of idleness and ease." Again, this guy's writing several hundred years after Caesar, so he's talking about the, you know, the slippery slope.

• 30:11Jocko Willink?

  "Hence, a relaxation of military discipline insensibly ensued, then a neglect of it, and it sunk at last into entire oblivion."

• 30:25Jocko Willink?

  So he's watching the fall of the Roman Empire. And where does it start? Lack of discipline with the troops. Boom.

• 30:35Jocko Willink?

  I'm getting a kick out of this book. The necessity therefore of discipline cannot be too often inculcated as well as the strict attention requisite in the choice and training of new levies. Don't you can't ever. Can't ever let up a sack. You can't can't ever say it's okay not to do that rep.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:59Jocko Willink?

  Uh, that that's in the book, he goes into a long sort of

• 31:06Jocko Willink?

  a long, long description of how they were organized, like man by man, troop by troop. Uh, not going to go too deep into that. You know, well, one of the things he does mention in that section is, is about how when they stopped doing a good job replacing the soldiers that were leaving. You know, you're, you're not keeping, you're not keeping people coming in and not keeping them trained up.

• 31:30Jocko Willink?

  And this is a good thing. I think this is good for any team situation. The expense of keeping up good or bad troops is the same.

• 31:41Jocko Willink?

  But it depends wholly on you. So I think that's a good statement. You know, you got, you got some good members on your team. You got some bad members on the team. It costs you the same to keep them.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:52Jocko Willink?

  Well, you, you gotta decide how you're gonna, how you're gonna manage that situation.

• 32:03Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. In former times, the discipline was so strict that the tribunes or officers not only caused the troops under their command to be exercised daily in their presence, but were themselves so perfect in their military exercise as to set them by example. Nothing does so much honor to the abilities or application of the tribune as the appearance and discipline of the soldiers. When their apparel is neat and clean, their arms bright and in good order, and when they perform their exercises and evolutions with dexterity.

• 32:43Jocko Willink?

  No big deal.

• 32:51Jocko Willink?

  More. He's talking about just keeping the elements organized in a combat situation. Lest the soldiers in the confusion of battle should be separated from their comrades. Every cohort had its shield painted in a manner peculiar to itself. The name of each soldier was also written on his shield, together with the number of the cohort and sentry to which he belonged.

• 33:22Jocko Willink?

  I like that. I had a note in here about how we, we would name our vehicles. So you'd know what vehicle to get into. You know, like the Humvees, the Humvees would have names. So you'd know which vehicle is yours.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Was there one called Zev?

• 33:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they had all kinds of names for them. My first deployment to Iraq.

• 33:41Jocko Willink?

  My first deployment to Iraq, they were named after the movie.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Oh, movie, alright.

• 33:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they were named after a movie.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Legit.

• 33:50Jocko Willink?

  It's about bowling, but it's not The Big Lebowski.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Uh, Kingpin.

• 33:54Jocko Willink?

  It was Kingpin. That was the name.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Big Ern, right?

• 33:56Jocko Willink?

  It was one of the Humvees was called Big Ern.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:59Jocko Willink?

  Now, what's interesting is the Humvees originally were not named, they were numbered. One, two, three, four, five, six, and that seems like a pretty squared away, like, I, Jaco would be good with that, just need to give him a number. Here's the problem with it. When you're going on an operation, you go into a building to do a, a takedown of a building. The vehicles move around, they get, they gotta adjust, and when you come back out, they might not necessarily be in order numerically. So guys, but guys would go one, two, three, oh, that's my vehicle.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Gotcha, yeah.

• 34:26Jocko Willink?

  So they get in the wrong vehicle, which might not seem like a big deal. But then when you're trying to get a head count, and someone's not in the right vehicle, and the vehicle commander's like, I'm, I'm supposed to have eight guys and I only have seven. Now we're trying, sitting on the X, trying to get a head count, and that's problematic. But if you know what your name of your vehicle is, you confirm it, and they're written on the side, nice big letters. You're looking for Big Ern. You see it, you jump in.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  That makes sense with the with the numbers, because I think just by nature, we assign numbers to things. For all kinds of weird reasons, you know, like where if there's three things in a row, like if I see, okay, there's three bottles in a row. Me and you don't even have to know each other. And I say, hey, grab the third bottle. It's kind of there's a sure there's a kind of an ambiguous understanding. Okay, the one the furthest one on the right, you know, it's like that. So the numbers can jam me up.

• 35:11Jocko Willink?

  We numbered this podcast.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz it's like chronological.

• 35:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So interestingly, they could have had just names.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:19Jocko Willink?

  In fact, maybe they should have. Remember when the UFC's used to be numbered?

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:24Jocko Willink?

  Or or wait, they're numbered. And then there's all. Oh, no, no, what it was. This is what I was thinking. They used to give them a number. And then they would have like a crazy name.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, the title. I love that.

• 35:34Jocko Willink?

  Vengeance of.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  I actually.

• 35:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Vengeance of glory or whatever. And then they just started just calling them the names of the guys that were fighting.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:41Jocko Willink?

  Which makes sense. Once you have, that's kind of what I'm thinking right now, like someone. That's looking for a certain episode.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:50Jocko Willink?

  They they would, they might not remember the number, but they remember the book or they remember the person.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:55Jocko Willink?

  That's kind of interesting.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  So we cut, but we do kind of do it like that.

• 35:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, kind of, kind of.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  But yeah, I wonder what is, is there value to having a number aside from keeping account of how many episodes there are?

• 36:06Jocko Willink?

  Well, I think. I think someone now can, if you know what one you're looking for, and then you find it.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:14Jocko Willink?

  Then you can go and find it easy in your platform.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:17Jocko Willink?

  But the easiest way, if you want to know what, cuz sometimes I don't remember what a particular, if you Google. Jocko podcast, and then whatever thing that you're looking for.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:28Jocko Willink?

  It'll take you to the YouTube video.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:31Jocko Willink?

  It'll take you to the YouTube video.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz the YouTube videos are put the.

• 36:35Jocko Willink?

  Somebody just told me on on, somebody said, hey, you should review this book. Maurice. Strategicon.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Strategicon.

• 36:43Jocko Willink?

  Strategicon, yeah. And I said, he said, you should review this book. And this guy's like been in the game for a while. And I said, you should check out podcast. And I didn't remember what number was. So I Googled Jaco strategic on. And I found fifty seven. Boom, done.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 37:00Jocko Willink?

  So now you can say fifty seven. It's easy to go back in there and look, right?

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:04Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 37:06Jocko Willink?

  Alright, talking about drilling the troops back to the book. The younger soldiers and recruits went through their drills of every kind every morning and afternoon, and the veterans and most expert regularly, once a day. Length of service or age alone will never form a military man. For after serving many years, an undisciplined soldier is still a novice in his profession.

• 37:37Jocko Willink?

  By practice only can be acquired agility of body and the skill requisite to engage an enemy with advantage, especially in a close fight.

• 37:50Jocko Willink?

  But the most essential point of all is to teach soldiers to keep their ranks and never abandon their colors in the most difficult evolutions. Thus, men thus trained are never at a loss amidst the greatest confusion of numbers. The recruits likewise are to be exercised with wooden swords at the post, to be taught to attack this imaginary antagonist on all sides and to aim at the side's feet or head, both with the point and edge of the sword.

• 38:24Jocko Willink?

  It sounds, I think some of those movies that came out, because this doesn't sound glorious to me, maybe it doesn't to you, but to me, that sounds awesome. And then like movies like Braveheart, where they're showing kind of the sword battles and how just psycho it was, I think that's a good reminder.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, big time.

• 38:51Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. In short, both legionary and auxiliary troops should continually be drilled in cutting wood, carrying burdens, passing ditches, swimming in the sea or rivers, marching in the full step and even running with their arms and baggage, so that inert to labor in peace, they may find no difficulty in war.

• 39:13Jocko Willink?

  For as the well-trained soldier is eager for action, so does the untaught fear it.

• 39:23Jocko Willink?

  In war, discipline is superior to strength. But if that discipline is neglected, there is no longer any difference between the soldier and the peasant.

• 39:36Jocko Willink?

  The old maxim is certain that the very essence of an art consists in constant practice.

• 39:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, discipline is superior to strength.

• 39:56Jocko Willink?

  This is a solid book.

• 40:00Jocko Willink?

  The art, the very essence of an art consists in constant practice. So whatever it is you want to be good at, that's how you get good at it. Leif and I just wrote another book. We've been writing a lot. I've been writing a ton.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 40:15Jocko Willink?

  And you can see, the first draft was probably five times better than our first draft of our first book. And you know, we both have done a lot of writing in the military, you know, in college and all that, but you practice, you get better.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:31Jocko Willink?

  Jiu-Jitsu, guess what? You practice, you get better.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, you do.

• 40:36Jocko Willink?

  Pull-ups. You're gonna pull-ups?

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Do pull-ups.

• 40:44Jocko Willink?

  Here we go.

• 40:47Jocko Willink?

  The Lacedaemonians made war their chief study.

• 40:53Jocko Willink?

  They affirmed to be the first who reasoned on the events of battles and committed their observations there on to writing with such success as to reduce the military art before considered as totally dependent on courage or fortune to contain to certain rules and fixed principles.

• 41:14Jocko Willink?

  As a consequence, they established schools of tactics for the instruction of youth in all the maneuvers of war. How worthy of admiration are these people for particularly applying themselves to the study of an art without which no other art can possibly exist? Boom. That's interesting. It's interesting. Can you imagine it? Well, for me, you know, actually, I can't imagine. When you're a kid, you think like war is just like, ah, just charge. And then as soon as you get into the teams, you're like, oh, there's maneuvers you can do. There's things you need to make happen. There's ways you can get advantage. It's not just, what do they call it? Courage or fortune.

• 41:59Jocko Willink?

  It's not just that at all. There's a whole lot of things involved. And it's also interesting that they were doing, they were doing studies and debriefs on the war, on the battles. Cause it sounds like people were, and he says, hey, look, they were the first who reasoned on the events of battles and committed their observations there on to writing with such as a success to figure out that there's a military art. And how, you know what? How fired up is it that? To study this art of war without, without which no other art can possibly exist? Too strong for you?

• 42:40Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 42:42Jocko Willink?

  Too strong? Too strong? I can see it.

• 42:44Speaker 01

  That's a bold statement for sure.

• 42:46Jocko Willink?

  It's a real bold statement.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  I don't think I've thought about it enough to offer any sort of an opinion, you know, on the deal. But hey, man, I dig it. Kind of like, kind of like exercise in life, right? Or health in life.

• 42:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  You know, but yeah, sure. Cool. You seem pretty fired up about it.

• 43:03Jocko Willink?

  I am very fired up about that.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  You do.

• 43:06Jocko Willink?

  And this is where George Washington's statement kind of paraphrased from back to the book. He therefore, who desires peace should prepare for war. He who aspires to victory should spare no pains to form his soldiers. And he who hopes for success should fight on principle, not chance. No one dares to offend or insult a power of known superiority in action.

• 43:41Jocko Willink?

  You get bummed out that you didn't learn this in third grade, like this whole thing?

• 43:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yes.

• 43:50Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Including Jiu Jitsu for sure.

• 43:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, yeah.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  I feel like, and you can, I learned this kind of from you in the beginning. Where you know how you have this kind of big picture kind of mindset, right? Like the long game, you're always like, you used to always correct me when I have this like short sighted. Yeah, that's what I wish I understood slash even, I don't know if kids are even capable, really, but...

• 44:15Jocko Willink?

  No, you're a hundred percent right. And I've actually said this many times, that kids have a hard time connecting what they're doing now with where it puts them in the future. And I say kids, and by kids, I mean me, everyone. I mean, I'm better now, but when you're, when you're a kid, like it made, and kids, some kids are different. You know, like some of my, some of the kids that my kids hang around with, some of them are dialed. Where they've just got a vision, they know where they're going, they know where they're gonna be in eight years. They know what they want to do. That's not a majority of the kids. Most kids are, you know, like, well, hey, I can get this right now. And that's cool.

• 45:00Jocko Willink?

  And they don't think about how it's gonna affect them in the future. And that's, that's, that's just really problematic. Not understanding that long game is really problematic. And I think we do a bad job of teaching it. As parents and as teachers and as a society.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, agree. Well, I mean, there's, cause you have, you know, like JP says this and Lacey said this where when I, they're like, when I was a kid, even you say you wanted to be some sort of a commando. At least you had like an idea, you know? So there was, at the very least, somewhat in your mind to be like, hey, if I do this...

• 45:39Jocko Willink?

  That was, that was a savior.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think some families, just through tradition and stuff like that, they'll have that structure. Like, hey, you're a, I don't know, you're a Johnson, so you do this XYZ. And it's just a matter of getting the kid to embrace that, which is really kind of like, either they do or they don't. Yeah, I mean, I think if you're fair to your kids, cause I think a lot of times, like, we get caught up in like our own feelings, you know, in this thing, like, you know, I don't know, your kid's not listening to you or something like that. You're like... Oh, my kid's not listening to me. You know, you get caught up in the feeling that.

• 46:13Jocko Willink?

  Emotions.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, that rather than, hey, you know, that's a problem that needs to be solved kind of thing. So I think that's the way you can alienate your kids real easy and it's a common thing, I think, where, you know, we'll alienate our kids and then they won't embrace the, the, the pride and tradition of your family. Because they're like, alienated, you alienated them in one way or another. Sometimes you don't even know that you alien. You know, they're like, oh, he's in a rebellious phase. You know, like, sure, there is such thing as a rebellious kind of phase. Kids, they gather this or they gain the sense of like empowerment in certain ways, you know, so they want to test it out. They want to test the boundaries and all that.

• 46:49Jocko Willink?

  And subconsciously, they know they're gonna break away from their parents at some point and they gotta start practicing that.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it seems, it seems natural, but if you have successfully alienated your kid, when that rebellious phase comes, they're stepping right outside the game. They're starting their own thing. In fact, they're gonna have some resentment against dad who's this unfair tyrant who's lame heaps this.

• 47:11Jocko Willink?

  The kids never think their parents know anything.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  You know, as a parent, I understand why. I totally do. I'm like, ah, I get it now. But that is funny. That is really funny, actually.

• 47:22Jocko Willink?

  I mean, we just don't, it's not just parents, like your teachers don't know anything. I'm not speaking for everybody, but like when I was a kid, parents didn't know anything, teachers didn't know anything. I knew everything.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Bunch of dorks.

• 47:30Jocko Willink?

  Bunch of idiots. God, I'm stupid. So if you're listening to this and you're, you know, under the age of forty, you might want to listen to your.

• 47:42Jocko Willink?

  All right, that's good stuff.

• 47:47Jocko Willink?

  He who desires peace should prepare for war. Remember that one.

• 47:52Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, an army too numerous. So now he's talking about the size of the army. An army too numerous is subject to many dangers and inconveniences. Its bulk makes it slow and unwieldy in its motions, and it is obliged to march in columns of great length that is exposed to the risk of being continually harassed and insulted by inconsiderable parties of the enemy. The encumbrance of the baggage is often an occasion of its being surprised in its passage throughout difficult places or over rivers. The difficulty of providing forage for such numbers of horses and other beasts of burden is very great.

• 48:31Jocko Willink?

  Besides the scarcity of provisions, which is to be great carefully guarded against in all expeditions, soon ruin such large armies where the consumption is so great that notwithstanding the greatest care in filling the magazines, they must begin to fail in a short time and sometimes they unavoidably will be distressed for want of water. But if unfortunately this immense army should be defeated, the numbers lost must necessarily be very great. And the remainder who save themselves by flight too much disparited to be brought to action again. And I read that whole thing so I could read this, which is saying, hey, like you get too many people.

• 49:13Jocko Willink?

  I read that whole thing so I could read this, the ancients taught by experience prefer discipline to numbers. We'd rather just have a small squared away group than a ton of guys. So where I see this with businesses, this is what businesses is as businesses grow, it becomes harder for them to turn, right? It's harder for them to pivot.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 49:40Jocko Willink?

  So, so you get big companies that when they were small, they were all agile and they were making things happen and they could change direction. And then as they get bigger and bigger and bigger, they lose the ability to do that. And so you got to pay attention to that and what you have to do, there's a couple of solutions. It's like the solution is, yeah, you can stay small, but you don't want to stay small as a business because you can't just like, you know, it's cool to stay small as an army, but there's only so much you can do with limited number of people. So what you have to do is you have to start to become more aware of what's going, what's going, what's coming down the pipe in the future. Cause it's going to take you longer for you to pivot this, this big monster you've got.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:16Jocko Willink?

  So you've got to do it. You've got to pay more attention. So when you grow in size, this is classic, when you grow in size, a, a business, if the leaders of the business continue to focus down and in to the company.

• 50:33Jocko Willink?

  They won't see what's coming over the horizon and that's when they'll get caught off guard. And now they don't have time to pivot because they're a lot bigger. But they used to get away with it because they were a little small company. They could come into work on Monday and they could talk to everyone in one sitting and everyone gets on board and we move forward. You fast forward that and you go from 50 employees to 500. That are now, you know, spread out over a large geography. You can't make that quick move. And so what you have to do as a leader is as you grow, you need to adjust your frame of vision from looking down inside your company to looking up and into the future. If you don't make that transition, you can't, you, you, you think you can turn things quickly, you can't.

• 51:13Jocko Willink?

  You can't. It's a big army and a big army has to be, it's, it's hard to control a big army and it takes more lead time.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:21Jocko Willink?

  And so that's the focus that you have to adjust to as you grow.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good way to put it. So how do you do it then? Like you, as the.

• 51:31Jocko Willink?

  Well, what you do is. Yeah, you have people underneath you. If you were making widgets and I was, when we started off, we had eight people and I was in the factory all day checking out your widgets and making sure that they were good to go. And I was testing them myself and I was making little adjustments. That's cool. That's fine. It worked when we had eight people, but now when we get 40 people, I need to start going, okay. Echo, can you, can you pay attention to widgets in here? And then when I get to 300 people, I need to have four or five echoes that are down there that are watching this stuff. So, so that's what you gotta do. You gotta adjust your field of vision. You gotta adjust your focus or else you. And what fools people, what fools people, what catches them off guard is that they think they can still pivot quickly. Because they were able to do it when they were smaller, when they had 30 or 40 people, they were able to pivot quickly.

• 52:15Jocko Willink?

  They got 300, they can't do it and they get caught off guard. You gotta watch out for that.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Kind of like a big cruise ship, right? Compared to like a little speedboat or something like this.

• 52:25Jocko Willink?

  Of course. Those things take miles to turn. Miles, those big oil tankers, they take miles to stop. Back to the book, the excellence of their discipline made their small army sufficient to encounter all their enemies with success. Now, this is something else I see a lot in business world.

• 52:42Jocko Willink?

  And this is very common, right? You get the, you got the big, the big business, the big gorilla in the room or whatever, and they can't pivot very quickly. Well, then you get the smaller companies that are very agile and they start picking away at the big guy. That's what he's talking about right here. Like, just because you're small doesn't mean you can't, you can't take a shot at the title.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:00Jocko Willink?

  You know, because you can move quickly and if there's chaos going on, that's when you can adapt. Now, are there advantages to being the big company with lots of money and lots of people and you're very stable? Oh yeah, absolutely.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:11Jocko Willink?

  So, and are there advantages to being small? Yes, there are. The mistake that people on both sides make is they view themselves, they, they don't understand what their strengths and weaknesses are, and they don't understand the strengths and weaknesses of their opponents. Right? So they say, if there's someone that can move quicker than them, they go, oh, don't worry about them. We're bigger and more stable. Well, those people are maneuvering on you.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:32Jocko Willink?

  And they're sticking little needles in your feet. And eventually those little needles get infected and there's a problem.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:37Jocko Willink?

  Got, you know, situation going on. So you have to constantly, as a leader, and again, this is why leadership is important. You have, as, as a leader, need to assess, what's the strength of that group? What's the weaknesses? What is, what are our strengths? Right? We keep hearing this again, over and over again, throughout all these ancient military leaders. Know yourself, know your opponent, know your strengths, know your weaknesses. For sure. People fail to do that.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:01Jocko Willink?

  Problematic.

• 54:09Jocko Willink?

  Here we go. Uh, famine makes greater havoc in an army than the enemy. And is more terrible than the sword. You know, I, every time, we've read that in the last couple of books, people talking about how it's better to starve your enemy. Just makes me really, really thankful that there's abundant food in this country right now. It really does. I mean, I, I've never been starving and can you imagine starving to death? It's gotta be absolutely heinous.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:43Jocko Willink?

  Worse than the sword. According to Vegetius.

• 54:49Jocko Willink?

  An army drawn together from different parts sometimes is disposed mutely. And the troops, though not inclined to fight, pretend to be angry at not being led against the enemy. Such seditious dispositions principally show themselves in those who have lived in their quarters in idleness and effeminacy. These men, unaccustomed to the necessary fatigue of the field, are disgusted at its severity. Their ignorance of discipline makes them afraid of action and inspires them with insolence.

• 55:25Jocko Willink?

  So, you let your... It's one of those...

• 55:32Jocko Willink?

  Dichotomies. That's what it is. If you let your people do whatever they want, they get soft and then they start to rebel. You want to talk about kids, you know, let your kids do whatever you want, or whatever they want. And see how that works out for you. Lack of discipline with your kids, you're gonna end up with some rebellious kids.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 55:48Jocko Willink?

  Now, am I saying that you need to beat them like a dog into submission? No, I'm not saying that at all. Because you know what that dog is? That dog's crazy. That dog will bite you at some point.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 55:58Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Or somebody else.

• 55:59Jocko Willink?

  Or somebody else. Yeah. It's problematic. So you have to find the balance between those two things.

• 56:06Jocko Willink?

  He says there's several remedies for this evil.

• 56:11Jocko Willink?

  Let them be constantly employed either in the field days or in the inspection of their arms. They should not be allowed to be absent on furlough. They should be frequently called by roll and trained to be exact in observance of every signal. Let them be exercised in the use of the bow in throwing missile weapons and stones, both with the hand and sling and with the wooden sword at the post. Let them be... Let all this be continually repeated and let them be often kept under arms until they are tired. Let them be exercised in running and leaping to facilitate the passing of ditches. And if their quarters are near the sea or the river, let them all without exception be obliged in the summer to have the frequent practice of swimming.

• 56:56Jocko Willink?

  Let them be accustomed to march. March through thickets, enclosures, and broken grounds to fell trees and to cut out timber to break ground and to defend a post against their comrades who are in endeavor to dispossess them. And in the encounter, each party should use their shields to dislodge and bear down their antagonists. All the different kinds of troops thus trained and exercised in their quarters will find themselves inspired with emulation for glory and eagerness for action when they come to take the field. In short, a soldier who has proper confidence in his own skill and strength entertains no thought of mutiny.

• 57:41Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome. Yeah, these guys were doing force on force training. He's saying, look, you're not going to use swords, but you're going to go against each other with your shields and fight for it. And, and this is, I've answered that question a bunch of times where people, you know, how do you build morale in your team? It's like, make them train hard, make them work hard. Now, the real trick is to make them train hard, make them work hard, but at the same time, what you do is you give them ownership of that training. So they're running the training.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:10Jocko Willink?

  They come up with the ideas and you just respect the hardcore training that they're, that they're doing and you do it with them.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:17Jocko Willink?

  You don't just impose, it's different than just imposing on the team like, we're going to do this hardcore training. That, that will create a mutiny if you're not careful.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:28Jocko Willink?

  Especially if you're not out there doing it with them or if you don't explain why it's important.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I read this thing, this is to kind of add to that. Well, I think so anyway. They, what was it? I forgot what it was, but it said, and allow for success. So like when you train, you know, you train hard, train hard, train hard, but allow for success.

• 58:46Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  Cause if there's no success, it's like morale goes down after a while and whatever, something like this.

• 58:51Jocko Willink?

  For sure. You can't just, I just said, you can't beat that dog.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:55Jocko Willink?

  You can't beat that dog.

• 58:58Jocko Willink?

  It is much more to the credit of a general to form his troops to submission and obedience by habit and discipline than to be obliged to force them to their duty by the terror of punishment. So he's making, uh, the reason I pointed that out is because it's making a clear, a clear delineation between discipline and punishment.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:20Jocko Willink?

  Like discipline, good, punishment, bad. And he's saying those are two kind of opposite things. So I think that's very important.

• 59:26Speaker 01

  I think so too.

• 59:27Jocko Willink?

  And it's important to remember that you're treating your people good.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:32Jocko Willink?

  You're taking care of them. That's what you're doing. You don't necessarily take care of them by making their life soft. You take care of them by making their life disciplined and hard. Not to beat them down. There's a balance.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:46Jocko Willink?

  But that's what you gotta find.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:49Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. It is essential to know the character of the enemy and of their principal officers, whether they be rash or cautious, enterprising or timid, whether they fight on principle or from chance, and whether the nations they have been engaged with were brave or cowardly. So again, know your enemy.

• 1:00:09Jocko Willink?

  You must by no means venture to lead an irresolute or diffident army to a general engagement, for soldiers unused to fighting for a length of time must be considered in the same light as recruits. So he's saying if you've got people that haven't fought in a while and they're a little bit nervous, then you gotta figure that they're just like recruits. You can't always trust them.

• 1:00:36Jocko Willink?

  And then he talks about the general and says, if he finds himself in many respects, superior to his adversaries, he must by no means defer bringing on the engagement. So if you're in a better spot than the enemy, or you can take them, go. But if he knows himself inferior, he must avoid general actions and endeavor to succeed by surprises and stratagems. This, when skillfully managed by good generals, have often given them victory over enemies superior both in numbers and strength. So this is common sense stuff. If you think the enemy is better than you, don't fight them head on. That's guerrilla warfare. If you think the enemy is bigger and stronger than you, you don't fight them head on.

• 1:01:18Jocko Willink?

  All arts and trades, whatever, are brought to perfection by continual practice.

• 1:01:27Jocko Willink?

  How much more should this maxim, "true in inconsiderable matters," be observed in affairs of importance?

• 1:01:37Jocko Willink?

  And how much superior to all others is the art of war by which our liberties are preserved, our dignities perpetuated, and the provinces and the whole empire itself exists?

• 1:01:52Jocko Willink?

  You don't really like that. You're suspect.

• 1:01:56Speaker 01

  I think you like it enough for both of us.

• 1:01:59Jocko Willink?

  Okay, okay, we'll take that.

• 1:02:03Jocko Willink?

  It's true, though.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, actually, I can dig it.

• 1:02:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, let's face the facts here. If it wasn't for...

• 1:02:12Jocko Willink?

  If it wasn't for war, well, then you'd just be enslaved by someone. I mean, I'd love for it to not be that, for that to not be the case. But if it wasn't for war, you would just be enslaved by people, someone else that would... Someone that believed in war, you'd be the slave of them. That's how it would work.

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're right.

• 1:02:29Jocko Willink?

  I'm sorry, that's the nature of the world.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, no, you're actually right. Yeah. Yeah, because it's like... It's like the hope or wish that everyone was just perfect.

• 1:02:43Jocko Willink?

  Of course, that'd be great.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  Or actually, in a way, would it be great, though? You know how like...

• 1:02:47Jocko Willink?

  Sure, it'd be great, everyone got along, everyone singing kumbaya.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  I don't know, but isn't like stress or imbalance or whatever, isn't that the catalyst for any kind of progress of any kind?

• 1:02:57Jocko Willink?

  But if everyone was just happy and it's just all good.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Satisfied, right? I don't know, man, I think we'd be in the Stone Age still.

• 1:03:03Jocko Willink?

  I think it's bad, yeah, we probably would be. But guess what? If we're in the Stone Age, and I see that you got a piece of whatever, a piece of meat or a rock that I want, guess what?

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  I know, but now you're talking reality.

• 1:03:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  So, but, so, I mean, I guess the question is, not to go off on too much of a tangent, but the question is, would you want it to be all peaceful all the time with no progress? Would you want that?

• 1:03:28Jocko Willink?

  Good theoretical question.

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  Kinda know, right?

• 1:03:30Jocko Willink?

  Cause you're kinda thinking that. You're kinda thinking you like doing graphic design on a computer, which wouldn't exist if it wasn't for war.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  Nope, it would not.

• 1:03:39Jocko Willink?

  There you go, alright. Point taken.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  But even like, even like, competition, right? You know how it's like, yeah, competition is good, healthy competition is good. It's good for you, it makes you be, it doesn't feel like that when you're in the moment. It's like, let's say you're just dominating in whatever, I don't know. You play tennis, I don't know. And you're killing everyone, you're number one, you're breaking world records, you're money. And then you kinda notice this new, young, hungry guy coming in, he starts breaking some of your records. You're like, you don't like that? That makes you kinda mad, you kinda wish that never happened. But, at the same time, that usually is a catalyst for you to start working harder.

• 1:04:16Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  And preparing for that young.

• 1:04:17Jocko Willink?

  I'm all about it.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:19Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  But you're kinda, and you like the, the head to head, you know, like, you like that.

• 1:04:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like the competition, yeah.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  You like directly, though. You know, like, when you say, when, I think anyway, when, when they say, healthy competition is good. It's the result of healthy competition is good. You get the best products, right? In the market or whatever. And that's a result, that's why it's good, that's why it's kinda empirically good ultimately.

• 1:04:41Jocko Willink?

  I agree.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  Sure, it's not a perfect process, you know? I know you're on the fence, I know, but, but you, you like, like if I came up and you could tell I was feeling good. That would make you, that wouldn't make you nervous, you'd be happy. You'd be like, you like that head to head.

• 1:04:57Jocko Willink?

  Wait, I felt you were feeling good about what?

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  Come on, let's face it, on the mats.

• 1:05:01Jocko Willink?

  Oh, on the mats of justice? If you come up to me and you're all excited.

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Or even.

• 1:05:06Jocko Willink?

  Give me the Echo Charles scowl.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it, okay, I'll put it more accurately.

• 1:05:12Jocko Willink?

  Cause I, I just played that through my mind, yeah, when I see you like that, I'm like, oh.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's even more on, and, so, I'll even put it more accurately, more extreme, more understandable as far as what I think you're like. So let's say, we went and rolled and I tapped you out, right, for the first time.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Sure, you wouldn't like, you wouldn't like that specific thing. But when we roll again, that's when you'd be at your happiest right there. That's what I think. Like, I think most of us-

• 1:05:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, you, you want more of a challenge.

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, oh, it's really on now. That moment, to you, is a very pleasurable moment, is what it seems like. For some people, like, from, I don't know, I would even argue for, like, a lot of people like that, I mean, maybe that's a good example, maybe not. But that moment usually is a very stressful moment. Like, dang, now I gotta deal with this now, you know? And sure, it'll result in way better stuff, for sure, but the moment is less embraced by normal person.

• 1:06:06Jocko Willink?

  And you know what I think people, people should pay attention to, too, is

• 1:06:12Jocko Willink?

  the thing that bothers people, again, topic we've talked about before, the thing that bothers people is the anticipation of the situation, right? But most people, like, you, like, we were talking about you making videos earlier. When you know, like, there's a muster coming and you're probably like, oh, I gotta do this video. That, I would imagine, hangs over your head more than when you actually are, alright, now you're doing the work and you're putting it together and it's getting dialed.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:06:38Jocko Willink?

  That's how I feel about things. You know, I'll be like, there's something that I gotta do and I'm like, it's like, oh, you know what you do? You attack that thing.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, just jump in. Yeah.

• 1:06:46Jocko Willink?

  And now, when you talked to me earlier about working out, and like, hey, do you ever just call it? What I will do, which is a major weakness, is I'll, I'll like, I'll like, wait. I'll, I'll, I'll pace, I've, I've posted this on Twitter before, like, yep, I hemmed and hawed, I, I re, I, you know, redid the weights, I vacuumed the mats, whatever. I'm taking all kinds of reasons to not start. I'm procrastinating it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna make myself do it. But I'm just, I'm just like, being such a baby.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, bruh, that's so funny, bruh. Bruh, I do that too, hundred percent.

• 1:07:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, I'm not talking hours.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's there.

• 1:07:24Jocko Willink?

  But twenty minutes, you know, twenty minutes of like, you know what, I better stretch out a little bit more.

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's-

• 1:07:30Jocko Willink?

  Weak.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  That's good.

• 1:07:33Jocko Willink?

  Week.

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  Do it.

• 1:07:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just do it. That's the thing that you know what, you know what? That's one thing I'll tell you two little one. This is a workout tip from Jaco Day. You do, you put a stopwatch on stuff, right? Like you, even when I'm doing something that's not really, even when I'm doing something that's not really focused on the time, I at least put a stopwatch on it so that I just gotta keep, you know, you just keep, it just keeps it on pace, man.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:57Jocko Willink?

  Cause otherwise that feeling that I just talked about will, will start finding itself in between sets.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:04Jocko Willink?

  You know? Yeah, that's not good.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, all um, this weird thing, I mentioned this workout that I started a long time, never really deviated that much for, it's, it has rest between sets as part of the workout, the time.

• 1:08:18Jocko Willink?

  Designated times.

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  Designated time. Yeah, it was always, I don't think, man, I, it is, I cannot think of a time where it ever worked out, where the time between the sets was just like ambiguous or something. It was always a specific time. So that little procrastination thing would creep up between exercises or, or before my first set. You know, when you warm up and you're like, oh my God. And the first sets are usually the heaviest for me too. So I'm like, all right, all right, I know that'll happen. But you're right though.

• 1:08:44Jocko Willink?

  Like a stopwatch on it. I have this one workout that I do where I do like, it's L sit pull ups and then tuck pull ups and then dead hang pull ups and then kipping pulls. And then chin ups. So it's like those five and you do as many as you can in each and then you, then I do something else and then I come back and do it again. I do like five rounds of that.

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  So they're like burnout sets.

• 1:09:05Jocko Willink?

  Yep, each one's a burnout set.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:09:06Jocko Willink?

  And like, the first time I did, I was like, oh, that was cool. And so when the first time I did it, you know, I was kind of, um, let's just say motivated to do it.

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, fired up. Yeah.

• 1:09:18Jocko Willink?

  And this was years and years ago. And then the next time I did it, it took me a really long time. And I realized, cause I just was taking a long time between sets. And like, that's not the purpose of it.

• 1:09:28Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:09:29Jocko Willink?

  So now I always put a stopwatch on that thing.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:31Jocko Willink?

  Keep, keep, keep the clock ticking.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And that's it. And you feel it, cause you feel the clock ticking.

• 1:09:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  You know, you're like, oh my God. I guess that that would apply to everything huh? Like you, like if you um.

• 1:09:43Jocko Willink?

  You know, that's why like when I write, I do a thousand words. You know why? Cause you get a thousand words done in an hour. Sometimes I'm I'm wishing to see if I can get another fifty minutes.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  Wait, wait, so you, well, let's say when you write, you boom, you set the clock, your your watch.

• 1:09:56Jocko Willink?

  Uh, I don't set my watch.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you have the hour in your mind.

• 1:09:59Jocko Willink?

  I go, it's a, it's, you know, eight forty-eight, okay, nine forty-eight, I'm gonna be done.

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:04Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna wrap this.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  I can't do that.

• 1:10:06Jocko Willink?

  Because that's even worse. You sit there and stare at a blank screen or you click on that little, on that little uh, internet browser thing at the bottom. Then there you go. You're going down that slippery slope. Don't do it.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  Don't do it.

• 1:10:22Jocko Willink?

  Don't do it. Check.

• 1:10:27Jocko Willink?

  Talking about the general a little bit more. If therefore he finds his army composed of raw troops or if they have been long on, long been unaccustomed to fighting, he must carefully study the strength, the spirit, the manners of each particular legion and of each body of auxiliaries, cavalry and infantry. He must know if possible, this is good, he must know if possible, the name and capacity of every count, tribune, subaltern and soldier. He must assume the most respectable authority and maintain it by severity. He must punish all military crimes with the greatest rigor of the laws. So, there's a dichotomy there. He's saying you should know the name of every single person on your team.

• 1:11:13Jocko Willink?

  At the same time, if they get out of line, you maintain by severity.

• 1:11:22Jocko Willink?

  For troops that have never been in action or have not for some time been used to such spectacles, been used to such spectacles are greatly shocked at the sight of the wounded and dying. And the impressions of fear they receive dispose them rather to fly than to fight.

• 1:11:45Jocko Willink?

  That again to me is how do you train people and get them used to what they're gonna be facing in the real world. Always keep that in mind as a leader. And I was about to say almost keep, always keep that in mind as a trainer, but as a, as a leader, guess what you are? You're the trainer.

• 1:12:04Jocko Willink?

  Having explained the less considerable branches of the art of war, the mil, the order of military affairs naturally leads us to the general engagement. So now he's up to this point, he's only been talking about how to get ready for war. This is a conjecture full of uncertainty and fatal to kingdoms and nations for indecision. In the decision of a pitched battle consists the fullness of victory.

• 1:12:32Jocko Willink?

  Troops must never be engaged in a general action immediately after a long march when the men are fatigued and the horse is tired. The strength required for action is spent in the toil of the march. What can a soldier do who charges when out of breath?

• 1:12:49Jocko Willink?

  Sure, everyone's gonna hit me up. See, you need more rest.

• 1:12:56Jocko Willink?

  And he goes on to a little, a little get after it right here. The sentiments of the troops should be determined before battle. It is necessary to know the sentiments of the soldiers on the day of the engagement. Their confidence or apprehensions are easily discovered by their looks, their words, their actions and their motions. No great dependence is to be placed on the eagerness of young soldiers for action. For fighting has something agreeable in the idea to those who are strangers to it.

• 1:13:27Jocko Willink?

  So he's saying the young soldiers that haven't been in war, that are all fired up to fight, don't listen to them. Because there's some agreeable in the idea of fighting to people that haven't done it before. And then he says, on the other hand, it would be wrong to hazard into an engagement if the old experienced soldiers testify a disclan, a disclanation, a disinclination to fight.

• 1:13:51Jocko Willink?

  So if the if the old guys are like, hey, this boss not a good idea. Pay attention. A general, however, may encourage and animate his troops by proper exhortations and harangues, especially if by his account of the approaching action, he can persuade them into the belief of an easy victory.

• 1:14:11Jocko Willink?

  With this view, he should lay before them the cowardice or unskillfulness of their enemies and remind them of any former advantages they may have gained over them. He should employ every argument capable of exciting rage, hatred and indignation against the adversaries in the minds of his soldiers. Now, this is something I disagree with. I disagree with this idea. I disagree with the idea of telling the troops that it's going to be an easy victory. Of telling the troops that, hey, they're cowards. I don't agree with that. And because when you do that, there's a lot of things that can go bad. Number one.

• 1:14:52Jocko Willink?

  When you go against the enemy and you face them and they start doing good against you because they're more skilled than you expected, that's a problem.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it can jam up your morale.

• 1:15:01Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that can jam up your morale really bad. So I don't recommend ever disrespecting the enemy. I recommend you give them, not to mention if this can be an easy victory. What's your mindset going into it?

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Cruzy.

• 1:15:15Jocko Willink?

  I mean, first of all, you're not training hard for it. You think you're going to win it easy. It's called, yeah, don't do that. No, you, you, you respect the enemy. I think the point that he may have been trying to make is like, don't be afraid of the enemy. I get that. Nothing to be afraid of. But respect him.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  Didn't Frederick the Great say something like that in last, last time? Like something about remind them of how lame they are or whatever?

• 1:15:40Jocko Willink?

  He did say something like that. And actually, it just, the thing that he was saying. Ah, what was it that he said?

• 1:15:51Jocko Willink?

  He was saying, no, what he was saying was only talk about the enemy with total scorn.

• 1:15:57Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:15:57Jocko Willink?

  That's what he was saying. Only talk about the enemy with total scorn. And actually, he was also saying like, you shouldn't even hate the enemy, but don't let anyone know that you don't hate them. Despise them, which was kind of interesting. And he's saying the same thing, like rage and hatred and indignation. That's how you want them to be thinking of the enemy. So they both agreed on that point. But I disagree on the point of tell the, tell your men that this is gonna be an easy fight. Cause it's not gonna be an easy fight.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:23Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, it is natural for men in general to be affected with some sensations of fear at the beginning of an engagement. But there are without a doubt some of a more timorous disposition. Who are disordered by the very sight of the enemy. To diminish these apprehensions before you venture on action, draw up your army frequently in order of battle. In some safe situations so that your men may be accustomed to the sight and appearance of the enemy. When opportunity offers, they should be sent to fall upon them and endeavor to put them to flight. Or kill some of their men. Thus, they will become acquainted with their customs, arms and horses.

• 1:17:06Jocko Willink?

  And the objects with which we are once familiarized are no longer capable of inspiring us with terror.

• 1:17:16Jocko Willink?

  It's amazing how good you get at something like if you've seen it one time.

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:20Jocko Willink?

  You know, and just, just think about any situation. Think if, if, like if you scare someone, which I enjoy scaring people.

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:17:30Jocko Willink?

  But if you scare someone and then they come back in and you try and do the same thing, like they're not scared at all. It doesn't work.

• 1:17:35Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:17:36Jocko Willink?

  So, so that's what, that's how you want to prepare your people. You get them used to those seeing what they're gonna see.

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:46Jocko Willink?

  Good generals are acutely aware that victory depends much on the nature of the field of battle.

• 1:17:53Jocko Willink?

  When you intend therefore to engage, endeavor to draw the chief advantage from your situation. The highest ground is reckoned the best. Always take the high ground.

• 1:18:11Jocko Willink?

  Talking about reserves, the method of having bodies of reserves in the rear of the army, composed of choice infantry and cavalry, commanded by the supernumerary lieutenant generals, counts, and tribunes, is very judicious and of great consequence toward the gaining of a battle. Some should be posted in the rear of the wings and some near the center to be ready to fly immediately to the assistance of any part of the line which is hard-pressed to prevent its being pierced, to supply the vacancies made therein during the action, and thereby to keep up the courage of their fellow soldiers and check the impetuosity of the enemy.

• 1:18:55Jocko Willink?

  So always have reserves. Don't overextend yourself.

• 1:19:01Jocko Willink?

  The post of the commander-in-chief is generally on the right between the cavalry and the infantry, for from this place he can best direct the motions of the whole army and move elements with the greatest of ease wherever he finds necessary. It is also the most convenient spot to give his orders to both horse and foot and animate them equally by his presence. So position yourself in a good spot.

• 1:19:34Jocko Willink?

  An able general never loses a favorable opportunity of surprising the enemy either when tired on the march, divided in the passage of a river, embarrassed in a morasses, struggling with the declavities of mountains, when dispersed over the country they think themselves in security or are sleeping in their quarters.

• 1:19:57Jocko Willink?

  So just take advantage of your enemy whenever they're let their guard down. In all these cases, the adversaries are surprised and destroyed before they have time to put themselves on their guard. But if they are too cautious and you and give...

• 1:20:16Jocko Willink?

  But if they are too cautious to give you an opportunity of surprising or ensnaring them, you are then obliged to engage openly and on equal terms. So whenever you get the chance, you sucker punch them, right?

• 1:20:33Jocko Willink?

  You know, is that the... Is that, am I encouraging you to go out and sucker punch people? No, but if you're gonna fight, take advantage of the situation. You've already determined that the enemy needs to be fought. You're gonna do everything you can to...

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  But isn't that...

• 1:20:50Jocko Willink?

  You think I just started a rash of sucker punches?

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  No, I, I feel like you misused the expression. That's what I think.

• 1:20:56Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:20:57Speaker 01

  Cause sucker punch is more of a waging of war, or a certain level of war when someone...

• 1:21:03Jocko Willink?

  So you're saying this is the, these are already at war?

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  They're already at war. So now it's like, it's kinda, sucker punch is the kind, hey, we're just gonna go invade this country. They have no idea that we're, you know, they, they, I don't know, one of their citizens said something bad about our president or something like that. But if you guys are in war and they're sleeping or something like that, oh no, man, that's good.

• 1:21:24Jocko Willink?

  Cool. I agree. No, I, I actually agree with you very much, very strongly. I think you're correct.

• 1:21:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. In fact, I don't think you should sucker punch anyone.

• 1:21:33Jocko Willink?

  Yes, I agree. You shouldn't sucker punch someone, but if you are at war with someone, then you try and get them at their least prepared situation.

• 1:21:43Speaker 01

  Yes, I agree. Hundred thousand percent.

• 1:21:47Jocko Willink?

  Alright, this is important. The flight of an enemy should not be prevented, but facilitated.

• 1:21:55Jocko Willink?

  Generals unskilled in war think of victory incomplete unless the enemy are so straightened in their ground or so entirely surrounded by numbers as to they have no possibility of escape. But in such situation where no hope remains, fear itself will arm an enemy and despair inspires courage. That's powerful. Think about that. Fear itself will arm the enemy if you surround them completely. When men find themselves, oh, sorry, when men find they must inevitably perish, they willingly resolve to die with their comrades and with their arms in their hands.

• 1:22:41Jocko Willink?

  The maxim that a golden bridge should be made for a flying enemy has much been commended for when they have free room to escape, they think of nothing but how to save themselves by flight. And the confusion, now you might think that, you might think by that statement, he's saying, hey, like, you build a golden bridge for them to get away.

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:01Jocko Willink?

  You might think that that's sort of a a merciful thing to do, but check out this line, and the confusion becoming general, great numbers are cut to pieces. The pursuers can be in no danger when the vanquished have thrown away their arms for greater haste. So there are guys are dropping their swords, they see an escape, they drop their swords and they run for it, but you got them, you're waiting there for them. In this case, the greater number of the flying enemy, the greater the slaughter.

• 1:23:31Jocko Willink?

  Numbers are of no signification. Where troops once thrown into consternation are equally terrified at the sight of the enemy as their weapons. So, that's good advice, and that's, this is something as well. You know, it's not the same thing, but man, when you, when you when you're dealing with another human being, and let's say, let's say you and I are talking about something. And I know I'm right, and I know you're wrong, but you kind of planted yourself into it, you kind of painted yourself into a corner. I'll give you a little out, you know, give you a little out, you know, I don't want to like, I don't want to do that to you, and I don't want to do that to people I work with.

• 1:24:13Jocko Willink?

  No, let me give you a little out, like, oh yeah, it's probably the way it used to be, but you know what, hey, you know, just a little something. We go like, yeah, yeah, you know, definitely, I've done it before, like, oh, that's cool, I'm glad it worked, you know, what do you think of this? So give people a little out.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  That actually is very, very, um, it's not, it's a nice thing to do, but it feels very smart.

• 1:24:35Jocko Willink?

  It's very smart, it's very smart to do, you give people a little out.

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:40Jocko Willink?

  I have to do that with, I have to do that with, uh, I have to do with my kids, you know, give them a little out, because they'll paint themselves in a corner because they're kids. You know?

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

  That's what they do.

• 1:24:49Jocko Willink?

  They just, that's what they do.

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's when you embarrass someone because that's kind of embarrassing, especially when you get into some argument where it turns into a me against you kind of thing, then you realize you're wrong and you're like, oh, man, I have to basically I got, yeah, give them the give out. So we're kind of, we're both winners.

• 1:25:07Jocko Willink?

  Cause my ego is not involved over here. I'm just happy that we can get along. I'm moving forward.

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:12Jocko Willink?

  Good with it.

• 1:25:17Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. In the first place, your men must not imagine that you retire to decline in action, but believe you retreat an artifice to draw the enemy in to a more advantageous position for you, where you may more easily defeat them in case they follow you. For troops you perceive their general despairs of success are prone prone to flight. So what that's saying is, and I should have given this introduction before, is that if you feel like you have to retreat, you don't say, hey, we're, we're, we're getting crushed here and we're going to retreat. What we say is, hey, we're going to bait them. We're going to move back. We're going to draw them in.

• 1:25:58Jocko Willink?

  So the guys go, oh, okay, I get it. If you're just like, hey, we're getting our asses kicked and we need to get out of here, you're going to lose. Your people are going to run away. But if you're like, hey, we're doing this maneuver, we're going to fade back a little bit, we're going to set them up. And you go, oh, cool. I'm going to get an opportunity for payback.

• 1:26:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:14Jocko Willink?

  So that's a good point. A very good point.

• 1:26:16Speaker 01

  Seems like their mindset would still be in the fight in that case and then versus.

• 1:26:20Jocko Willink?

  Oh, we're game, we're out of here. Exactly. You keep them in the fight. Exactly.

• 1:26:28Jocko Willink?

  Now, once people, once, once the enemy is fleeing and you chase them, you got to be careful. Back to the book, a rash and inconsiderate pursuit exposes an army to the greatest danger possible, that of falling into ambush ambushes and the hands of the troops, enemy troops, ready for their reception.

• 1:26:49Jocko Willink?

  For as in the temerity of an army is increased and their caution lessened by the pursuit of a flying enemy, this is most favorable opportunity for such snares. So when you get somebody running after you, that's when you can catch them.

• 1:27:06Jocko Willink?

  The greater the security, the greater the danger. Troops, when unprepared, at their meals, fatigued after a march, when their horses are feeding, and in short, when they believe themselves most security, most secure, are generally most liable to a surprise. All risks of this sort are to be avoided carefully, and all opportunities taken of distressing the enemy by such methods.

• 1:27:34Jocko Willink?

  So, that mindset that people get, like you just said, when they're running away, is one thing, but also when they think they just won. They get the mindset of like, oh, we don't need security anymore anymore right now. We don't need it. We're good.

• 1:27:50Jocko Willink?

  There's that one little line.

• 1:27:53Jocko Willink?

  The greater the security, the greater the danger. That that line right there doesn't make any sense. The greater the security, the greater the danger. What he's saying is, when the the greater the security is, the greater the danger of being susceptible to letting your guard down.

• 1:28:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, like if, well, like in MMA situation, they got the guy, you don't remember that fight, right? We talked about before. But yeah, you got him days, days in there like, whoa, I'm gonna go in for the finish all crazy. Not like as cautious as maybe they should be, kind of that situation.

• 1:28:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure. Yeah, the greater the security, so the better you feel.

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  Right, this is your sense of security.

• 1:28:32Jocko Willink?

  I keep losing that line. The greater the security, the greater the danger. The greater the security, the greater the danger. That's what it is. So when you're feeling secure,

• 1:28:40Speaker 01

  watch it.

• 1:28:41Jocko Willink?

  Watch yourself.

• 1:28:44Jocko Willink?

  Resources in case of defeat. If while one part of your army is victorious, the other should be defeated. You are by no means to despair, since even in this extremity, the constancy and resolution of a general may recover a complete victory.

• 1:29:01Jocko Willink?

  So just because you take a little loss doesn't mean you're gonna lose completely. Yet notwithstanding an entire defeat, all possible remedies must be attempted since many generals have been fortunate enough to repair such a loss. So you can always come back. An army after a defeat has sometimes rallied, returned on the enemy, dispersed him by pursuing an order, and destroyed him without difficulty. Nor can men be in a more dangerous situation than when in the midst of joy after victory, their exultation is suddenly converted into terror.

• 1:29:40Jocko Willink?

  So, same thing. You're joyous because you won, and all of a sudden, you're, the tables turn. Whatever be the event, the remains of the army must be immediately assembled, reanimated by suitable exhortations, and furnished with fresh, fresh supplies of arms. That's what you do. When you get a good victory, you're like, alright, reload. That's what we're doing right now.

• 1:30:06Jocko Willink?

  And, in this last section of the book,

• 1:30:11Jocko Willink?

  he, he kinda just breaks down and sums up the rest of the book that we just read. So, these are all pretty familiar, most of them, because we, I covered most of them.

• 1:30:26Jocko Willink?

  "It is the nature of war that what is beneficial to you is detrimental to the enemy, and what is of service to him always hurts you."

• 1:30:36Jocko Willink?

  That seems like common sense. Yes.

• 1:30:39Jocko Willink?

  "The more troops, the more your troops have been accustomed to camp duties on frontier stations, and the more carefully they have been disciplined, the less danger they will be exposed to in the field."

• 1:30:56Jocko Willink?

  Train them hard. Men must be sufficiently tried before they are led against the enemy. Train them hard. It is much better to overcome the enemy by famine, surprise, or terror than by general actions. For in the latter instance, fortune has often a greater share than valor.

• 1:31:16Jocko Willink?

  I like the idea of overcoming the enemy just by terror.

• 1:31:21Jocko Willink?

  Just, just, I, I wish there was like a, a full chapter about that. That's legit.

• 1:31:27Jocko Willink?

  Those designs are best, which the enemy are entirely ignorant of till the moment of execution. Opportunity in war is often more to be depended on than courage.

• 1:31:45Jocko Willink?

  To debauch, to debauch the enemy's soldiers and encourage them when sincere in surrendering themselves is of a special service for an adversary is more hurt by desertion than by slaughter. So if you can get the enemy to like come over to your side, that's even worse to the enemy than when you're just killing them. Cause you think about when you're getting your friends killed, you have some kind of vengeance. But if they just take your friends and they're like all in, in the back room, having, having a glass of wine, you know, you're like, yeah, you know what? That sounds better than the deal I got.

• 1:32:22Jocko Willink?

  It is better to have several bodies of reserves than to extend yourself too much to the front. There you go. A general is not easily overcome who can form a true judgment of his own and the enemy forces. We've been hearing that one since Sun Tzu. Art of War. Valor is superior to numbers.

• 1:32:45Jocko Willink?

  The nature of ground is often of more consequence than courage. This guy's talking about terrain. That's what he's talking about. So everyone that's in the military listening to this right now? Terrain, terrain, terrain. Learn to read the terrain.

• 1:32:58Jocko Willink?

  This is a good one. Few men are born brave. Many become so through care and force of discipline. Great dichotomy there. Care for your people and through force of discipline is what makes people brave.

• 1:33:19Jocko Willink?

  An army is strengthened by labor and weakened by idleness.

• 1:33:30Jocko Willink?

  Don't sit around.

• 1:33:33Jocko Willink?

  Don't sit around. Keep moving. Troops are not to be led to battle unless confident of success. Novelty and surprise throw an enemy into consternation, but common incidents have no effect.

• 1:33:50Jocko Willink?

  Learn new moves.

• 1:33:53Jocko Willink?

  That's some advice I need to take. I always do the same moves. Not good. He who rashly pursues a flying enemy with troops in disorder seems inclined to resign that victory which he had before obtained. So if you go pursuing the enemy when your troops aren't organized, you're basically trying to give away your victory. So be careful when you pursue. An army unsupplied with grain and other necessary provisions will be vanquished without striking a blow.

• 1:34:28Jocko Willink?

  I need to, we need to find, I looked around, I've been looking for like a, like a Roman soldier and find some letters and stuff. But these guys must have been hungry. What are you talking about though? I'm talking about the hunger.

• 1:34:42Jocko Willink?

  On finding the enemy has notice of your designs, you must immediately alter your plan of operations. Check. Consult with many on proper measures to be taken, but communicate the plans you intend to put in execution to few and only those of the most assured fidelity, or rather, trust no one but yourself. But it's interesting, consult many people. Get some feedback from everyone. Next, punishment and fear thereof are necessary to keep soldiers in order in quarters. But, in the field, they are more influenced by hope and rewards.

• 1:35:26Jocko Willink?

  A little dichotomy for you. Good officers never engage in general actions unless induced by opportunity or obliged by necessity.

• 1:35:39Jocko Willink?

  To distress the enemy more by famine than the sword is the mark of consummate skill. And this is actually the last one here. Dispositions for action must be carefully concealed from the enemy lest they should counteract them and defeat your plans by proper expedience.

• 1:36:01Jocko Willink?

  So those, again, I didn't cover all the maxims and the reason I didn't is because some of the maxims that he talks about are legitimately ancient tactical warfare, but it's worth getting the book so you can read those and understand them. And he, he kind of ends this book with a little note to the Emperor of Rome at the time. And this is how he wraps it up. How glorious it is therefore for your majesty with all these qualifications to unite the science of war and the art of conquest and to convince the world that by your conduct and courage, you are equally capable of performing the duties of the soldier and the general.

• 1:36:49Jocko Willink?

  Think that's actually a cool statement to end on. Capable of equally performing the duties of the soldier and the general. So he wraps up the book with that last dichotomy.

• 1:37:03Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's one of the, really one of the most important qualities for a leader to have. And one of the most important qualities to be able to balance.

• 1:37:13Jocko Willink?

  And that is be able to maintain and lead from the highest position. And at the same time, never forget where you came from. Right? You've heard that expression? Don't forget where you came from. That's what he's talking about.

• 1:37:30Jocko Willink?

  And I think for every leader, what that means is recognize that you still have more to learn. That you can still grow, you can still try and get better and obviously

• 1:37:47Jocko Willink?

  that's what we're doing here is trying to learn.

• 1:37:53Jocko Willink?

  And trying to keep learning.

• 1:37:55Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:37:56Jocko Willink?

  And I think that wraps this up. And obviously, we make this podcast so that we can learn. And other people can learn if they want to join in. And if you learn anything and you want to, you know, give this podcast some support.

• 1:38:14Jocko Willink?

  There's some great ways to do it and the goal to when you support the podcast is that you also support yourself. That's, that's, that's the goal. Mutually supporting situation is what we're going for. So first off, we got our company up in Maine, up in New England, Origin USA.

• 1:38:35Jocko Willink?

  In Farmington, Maine, 100% American made products, products.

• 1:38:40Jocko Willink?

  It's a jujitsu company first and foremost, right? That's the foundation. Gies.

• 1:38:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:38:45Jocko Willink?

  And rash guards, interestingly, gies, one of the hardest things in the world to make. From scratch.

• 1:38:53Jocko Willink?

  And we make them here in America.

• 1:38:55Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:38:57Jocko Willink?

  A lot of people think they're the best. That's actually what I think.

• 1:39:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, well. So it depends on what you mean by the best. So if you think

• 1:39:09Speaker 01

  that the ones that fit the most appropriately for jujitsu. Then yeah, they're the best.

• 1:39:15Jocko Willink?

  If you're going to use your jujitsu gi for jujitsu, then they're the best.

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  They're the best.

• 1:39:19Jocko Willink?

  Concur.

• 1:39:19Speaker 01

  If you want various different weaves, various different options that happen to be made in America and various perfect blends for washing, drying, antimicrobial stuff.

• 1:39:35Jocko Willink?

  You know.

• 1:39:36Speaker 01

  Then yeah, they're the best.

• 1:39:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. When you see, would you remember the first time you saw dragon weave like with your own eyes?

• 1:39:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:39:42Jocko Willink?

  Were you impressed?

• 1:39:45Jocko Willink?

  I was.

• 1:39:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:39:46Jocko Willink?

  Like it's legitimately, it's, it's legitimately.

• 1:39:50Speaker 01

  Impressive.

• 1:39:50Jocko Willink?

  I actually, this is one of the dumbest things I've ever thought of in my life.

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  Alright, lay it on me.

• 1:39:54Jocko Willink?

  When I first saw Dragonweave, I thought to myself, it would be cool to get a legit, because you know sometimes I gotta wear a suit because I've been gonna work with a company or something. I thought to myself, it would be cool to get a legitimate suit made out of this.

• 1:40:08Speaker 01

  Dragonweave.

• 1:40:09Jocko Willink?

  Dragonweave suit.

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can see that.

• 1:40:11Jocko Willink?

  It took me about twenty minutes before I realized I was an idiot, but it's that cool looking.

• 1:40:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:40:19Jocko Willink?

  And, and it's that practical. That's the thing.

• 1:40:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:23Jocko Willink?

  So anyways, you can get Gee's, rash guards, originmaine.com. What else?

• 1:40:29Speaker 01

  Joggers. Sure, well, okay, so you wanted the suit, sorry, bro, you said it, so, you know, let's say, let's talk about it, at least a little bit. You said the suit.

• 1:40:38Jocko Willink?

  Suit, dude.

• 1:40:40Speaker 01

  You know, okay, you know, hey, Dragonweave suit, good, cool. But, so they had, I've talked about this before, where my favorite shorts are Dragonweave shorts.

• 1:40:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  They were, they don't make them, sorry.

• 1:40:52Jocko Willink?

  Not yet.

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  Well, so I was talking to Pete about it, about him, and I was like, hey, you know, like, you should make the Dragonweave shorts. And I forget why, but, you know, not, not now. There's other shorts, which are actually, could prove more dope.

• 1:41:09Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:41:10Speaker 01

  You see the button, like, you saw the buttons, right? Like, for the shorts, they're these buttons, they're dope. Anyway, so, yeah, there's, there's some joggers, some, you know, some shirts and whatnot, some regular apparel, more athletic wear. But, um, super comfortable, I'll tell you that. As the, the self slash whatever proclaimed connoisseur of comfort, I can say.

• 1:41:30Jocko Willink?

  Connoisseur of comfort.

• 1:41:31Speaker 01

  This is the most comfortable stuff you're ever gonna put on. If you find anything more comfortable, let me know, we'll see, compare apples to apples. But, yeah, some, uh, some good stuff there. Also some supplements.

• 1:41:41Jocko Willink?

  Hmm, and you know, speaking of, so, you know, you know who Dr. Rhonda Patrick is?

• 1:41:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:41:47Jocko Willink?

  She's been on Joe Rogan a couple of times.

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:49Jocko Willink?

  Probably even more than that. Anyways, she just tweeted out this thing talking about curcumin. And.

• 1:41:58Speaker 01

  Alright, well, what is it?

• 1:41:59Jocko Willink?

  Like, no kidding, double blind, triple, whatever.

• 1:42:02Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:42:02Jocko Willink?

  Tests, UCLA, um, curcumin is awesome for you. And.

• 1:42:09Speaker 01

  But do you remember like what?

• 1:42:11Jocko Willink?

  Yes, this is, this is the thing. The, it, it blew off. The article actually blew off.

• 1:42:17Speaker 01

  Wouldn't even blew off.

• 1:42:17Jocko Willink?

  Like, it was like, yeah, curcumin keeps down inflammation. Like, that was no big deal.

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:42:22Jocko Willink?

  Actually, that's a huge deal.

• 1:42:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:23Jocko Willink?

  That's why, that's one of the reasons why it's in joint warfare.

• 1:42:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:26Jocko Willink?

  But then, they did like a test. And it improved memory and like cognitive reaction twenty-eight percent. This is in a, a lab. So, and then they referred to people in India. That people in India who have a high level of curcumin in their diets. That's why Indian food looks yellow. Is because of that. There's, well, not just like direct, but they're saying that's really a interesting fact, right?

• 1:42:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:57Jocko Willink?

  So anyways, that's in there.

• 1:42:59Speaker 01

  It's in joint warfare.

• 1:43:01Jocko Willink?

  It's in joint warfare.

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  More than just joint warfare.

• 1:43:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:03Speaker 01

  The super krill, which is krill oil, as we all know by now, krill oil is pretty much the best source of omega-three. Better than fish oil.

• 1:43:12Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:43:13Speaker 01

  And we all know fish oil is good. Krill oil is even better. Super krill oil. Even better than regular krill oil.

• 1:43:19Jocko Willink?

  The big difference between super krill oil and krill oil?

• 1:43:22Speaker 01

  I do actually.

• 1:43:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's super.

• 1:43:25Speaker 01

  No, but there's in some actual, technical, beneficial, super stuff. And it's like zen, it's something, but it's an antioxidant. No, no, it's like xanthine, xanthanum or something. Uh, sorry, I'm saying it wrong, but it's an antioxidant. Which is a big deal. You know what rust is? Rust.

• 1:43:44Jocko Willink?

  Rust.

• 1:43:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, oxidation.

• 1:43:46Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:43:46Speaker 01

  All that is. Oxidation of metal. So when you, cause some people, I didn't, well, I knew this for a long time, but before I knew it, this is what, you know, this is how my brain was as far as antioxidants go. My mom's like, hey, antioxidants. I'm like, wait, oxidants, oxa- oxid- oxygen, oxygen is good. Like, why is it antioxidant kind of thing? But it's like, no, it's not antioxidant. Oxidant, meaning it fights oxidation, which is rust of your body. So your body technically is kind of rusting, you know? Antioxidants keeps it from rusting. So now that you, when you hear, when you hear, when you hear antioxidants, that's what you're hearing. It's gonna keep your body from rusting, straight up. So krill oil, omega-three is better uptake than fish oil.

• 1:44:29Speaker 01

  Um, and we need omega-three many things. Just know that you need them in this case for your joints. In other cases for your eyeballs, your brain. Your organs, all this stuff, but know that, just know that it has many uses. Plus antioxidants, boom, super krill oil, that's what makes it super. Then joint warfare, as we mentioned, yes, that's for your joints. Curcumin, not just curcumin.

• 1:44:52Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:44:52Speaker 01

  Glucosamine, chondroitin. These are things for cartilage. Man, I'm telling you, if you have bad joints, boom, joint warfare. Boom.

• 1:45:01Jocko Willink?

  Uh, get some discipline too.

• 1:45:03Speaker 01

  But yeah, by the way, and so now what we have, as it turns out, according to Dr. Anna Patrick, as you said, we have, so they all play into each other.

• 1:45:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, getting after it.

• 1:45:13Speaker 01

  So joint warfare, krill oil is the joints, but joint warfare also has cognitive enhancements, which, as does the discipline.

• 1:45:21Jocko Willink?

  So, there you go. Discipline is like a, what did you call it, a powdered drink? That's what it is, right?

• 1:45:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, that's, I mean.

• 1:45:28Jocko Willink?

  And you mix it up, you put a little in your water bottle, and then, and then it gives you a little bit of that.

• 1:45:34Speaker 01

  Yep. Gives you that mental edge, uh, mental advantage.

• 1:45:38Jocko Willink?

  Uh, Dave Burke sent me a text, he said, quote, best quote from the last podcast, Dave Burke is like a crackhead or something like that. Sorry, Dave, no offense.

• 1:45:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:49Jocko Willink?

  I know you just like the discipline.

• 1:45:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, amen.

• 1:45:52Jocko Willink?

  Did you see someone posted a picture of like, a guy with like cocaine powder all over his face?

• 1:45:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Dave Chappelle situation. Yeah, that's a good meme.

• 1:46:01Jocko Willink?

  Burke's on the, uh.

• 1:46:01Speaker 01

  Give me more of that discipline now.

• 1:46:03Jocko Willink?

  That discipline? Cool, cool.

• 1:46:06Speaker 01

  Also milk, okay, so that's a little bit of a shifting gears scenario in regards to supplements. Milk, okay, I'm gonna say the word protein, I said this before, I'm gonna say it again, cause to me it's appropriate. I'm gonna say the word protein powder, but I'm not gonna say, hey, milk is a protein powder, I'm not gonna say that. It's not, it's not appropriate, cause it's different. This is how it's different. It's milk.

• 1:46:30Jocko Willink?

  I just had a guy hit me up and he said, I don't drink protein powders, but it sounds like this is just dessert.

• 1:46:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:38Jocko Willink?

  And I hate to say it, it's kinda true.

• 1:46:41Speaker 01

  Kinda tastes like that too, but dessert kinda has this like kinda guilty kinda feel to it. This is guilt free dessert. Here's what I did though. I was pushing though. I know. And I was gonna kinda let you know, but I was like, you know, just let me just have it be funny for me. So I'm thinking, literally thinking of milk while I'm shopping.

• 1:47:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:04Speaker 01

  So when I shop, you know, even you, I don't know how much you shop, but.

• 1:47:08Jocko Willink?

  Zero.

• 1:47:09Speaker 01

  So I go in.

• 1:47:10Jocko Willink?

  Next question.

• 1:47:11Speaker 01

  I have my go tos, right? I get red leaf lettuce. Eat a lot of red leaf lettuce for whatever. And I get milk, but this time I'm thinking of the milk. I don't know why. It was just in my head. I wasn't gonna go drink some milk at that time. It was just in my head for whatever. And my eyes shifted to chocolate milk. So I'm like, hey, what if I mix the chocolate milk with the milk? I know, right? Might be too much.

• 1:47:34Jocko Willink?

  Did you do it?

• 1:47:35Speaker 01

  No, I didn't do it yet.

• 1:47:36Jocko Willink?

  Don't do that. You don't need to.

• 1:47:37Speaker 01

  Then again, why would I knock it before I try it? Cause what if I discover something? See what I'm saying? I didn't do it yet. I'll report back, but nonetheless, it is like a dessert, but it's one of those beneficial desserts.

• 1:47:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that will not.

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  Kinda like dark choc- like, you know, you know, consider dark chocolate, right? I mean, it's a certain percentage, right? Or something where it's like, good for you. Yeah.

• 1:48:00Jocko Willink?

  Gotta drink enough.

• 1:48:00Speaker 01

  It's kinda like that. It's like a big milkshake. Put an egg in there. You really wanna get that.

• 1:48:04Jocko Willink?

  We'll, we'll have some milk for sure at the immersion camp.

• 1:48:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which is, by the way, August 26th. That's what it is.

• 1:48:13Jocko Willink?

  Last year, we didn't have milk. Milk wasn't even invented yet.

• 1:48:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:17Jocko Willink?

  It was like.

• 1:48:18Speaker 01

  Straight up didn't exist.

• 1:48:19Jocko Willink?

  It didn't exist. It was like, then all of a sudden you cracked an atom open and they had to add milk to the periodic table. That just happened. Last year I had to drink, I did a drink in just the chocolate milk. Cause they had it at the camp.

• 1:48:32Speaker 01

  Oh, right, right. Yeah.

• 1:48:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like the, like the old school cafeteria chocolate milk. Just, just, it's just not, it's just horrible.

• 1:48:38Speaker 01

  You don't like it?

• 1:48:39Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:48:39Speaker 01

  I mean, I think I'm addicted to the experience, cause that's what, what it had.

• 1:48:42Jocko Willink?

  It's not good. It's not good. So, yeah, immersion camp.

• 1:48:47Speaker 01

  August 26th and September 2nd, that's the last day, but there's two sessions in there. I would say, you know, I can't speak for anyone else. I would say, yeah, go to both. Cause that's good, but you know, go to one, go to two, whatever.

• 1:49:00Jocko Willink?

  For those that are wondering, and this isn't confirmed yet, but we pretty, pretty much had the talk. Pete, me, and, and Be Little, and the conversation is looking like morning, gee. Afternoon, no gee. Evening. Whichever you want. Yeah. That's like a dream, isn't it?

• 1:49:24Speaker 01

  I think so too. And I don't have any complaints from the last one. Literally have no complaints.

• 1:49:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:33Speaker 01

  But I do remember thinking, if there was some no gee mixed in here, this would really, this would make me kinda not really wanna leave.

• 1:49:41Jocko Willink?

  Ever.

• 1:49:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:42Jocko Willink?

  This is worth pointing out. This is the kinda thing that I

• 1:49:48Jocko Willink?

  you, you ever think about like people that are OCD?

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  Yes, I think about that all the time.

• 1:49:53Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:49:53Speaker 01

  Obsessively, compulsively.

• 1:49:55Jocko Willink?

  So sometimes I have a little bit of that in me. But one of them is, is like, I want, uh, things to be squared away, right? And so when I was going to the camp, I was kinda like, how is this whole laundry thing gonna work? Like, what's gonna happen?

• 1:50:08Speaker 01

  This was before?

• 1:50:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:50:09Jocko Willink?

  Well, the thing is, just to let everyone know, if you come to camp, they, they do laundry. There's like a laundry service.

• 1:50:15Speaker 01

  They pick it up.

• 1:50:15Jocko Willink?

  They pick it up.

• 1:50:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:16Jocko Willink?

  And they wash all your clothes, and then they bring back in all your clothes, nice and clean.

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  And that's a huge deal.

• 1:50:23Jocko Willink?

  You think you could basically get away with two gees?

• 1:50:25Speaker 01

  Yes, two gees.

• 1:50:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, maybe three.

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  I, yeah, I would say, wait, I only had two.

• 1:50:32Jocko Willink?

  Probably three gees.

• 1:50:33Speaker 01

  I didn't bring any gees. I got origin ones when I was there.

• 1:50:36Jocko Willink?

  Bring two and buy one when you get there.

• 1:50:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:38Jocko Willink?

  I'm saying to rotate them through properly, but they're pretty fast on the turnaround. Anyways, that's the deal.

• 1:50:42Speaker 01

  But, but that's a, that's a, that's kind of a big deal, the laundry service, cause there's a difference between, hey, there's a laundry service, um, walk across camp to the laundromat and go handle your business.

• 1:50:52Jocko Willink?

  Well, and actually, the camp is at a different, same lake, Echo Lake, but it's a different lake. But, and I don't know what the exact laundry service, I think it's gonna be the same exact thing though, because the service didn't come from camp last time. It's somebody that does laundry for gees.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, makes sense.

• 1:51:06Jocko Willink?

  There should be people in the world that just do gee laundry.

• 1:51:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, they come and grab it, though. They knock on your door like room service.

• 1:51:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:14Speaker 01

  Really, it's a huge deal. I think it's very convenient, very nice. But yeah, Emergent Camp, August twenty third, August twenty sixth through September second, two sessions. I'm gonna be there. Jaco's gonna be there rolling.

• 1:51:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:27Speaker 01

  Rolling to fulfill your curiosity of how it is to roll with Jaco.

• 1:51:35Speaker 01

  Um, I'm not gonna say it'll be a good time rolling with Jaco. I'm not gonna say that.

• 1:51:39Jocko Willink?

  Let you down.

• 1:51:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, you might get let down as far as pleasurable experiences go.

• 1:51:44Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, might let you down. Might be, everyone thinks, oh, he's gotta be so unbelievable. No, it's like, I'm not that good at jujitsu.

• 1:51:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wasn't really thinking that. I was thinking more, um, oh, yeah, it'll be fun and pleasurable. Meanwhile, it'll be like, like ninety percent painful and then like five percent embarrassing. And, you know, various other, uh, negative emotions. But yeah, you can, you know, whatever. If, if you wonder about that kind of stuff, I don't know, maybe you don't. But yeah, that's in origin. Also, we have a store. Actually, Jaco has a store and it's called Jaco Store. Who made that name up?

• 1:52:23Jocko Willink?

  I did.

• 1:52:24Speaker 01

  Keeping it simple. Anyway, this is where you can get the rash guards that we make. Get after it. Little trooper rash guards. Warrior kid rash guards too, by the way. For youth, for your kids getting into jujitsu, boom. And for surfing, and for whatever, running, cycling, all that stuff. Um, and, uh, what other rash guards are there?

• 1:52:46Jocko Willink?

  T-shirts too.

• 1:52:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Stand by to get some rash guard. That's what I'm gonna make. Stand by to get some.

• 1:52:52Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:52:53Speaker 01

  I was gonna make a good rash guard, but then I thought, hey, what's the message of good?

• 1:52:57Jocko Willink?

  Isn't stand, isn't stand by to get some too close to get after it?

• 1:53:02Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:53:03Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:53:03Speaker 01

  Because stand by, no. Because stand by to get some is when you're standing by to get some. Getting after it is when you're actually getting after it. So when you're standing by or you're getting after it, it's two different things completely. Back to the good rash guard is important, I think, as far as the layers go. Okay, good is like when something quote unquote bad happens. There's always something good to come from it. It's what you said, it's a direct quote. So you can't make and put on a rash guard that's based on something bad happening as far as losing goes or something like that, right?

• 1:53:35Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:53:36Speaker 01

  I guess you could technically, if it looked dope. I don't know. Jury's still out. Anyway, back to the t-shirts. There's some cool ones on there, right?

• 1:53:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just put that Defqor on the t-shirt.

• 1:53:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, good idea. I think you're, you're right about that one. Oh, hats on there as well? Two kinds of hats as of right now, actually three technically, three types of headgear. Trucker hats, flex fit hats, beanies, just in time for summer. Actually, Beanies been out for a while. Beanies was a spring.

• 1:54:08Jocko Willink?

  Don't give yourself too much credit, but speaking of summer and winter, hoodies. You get hoodies on there too. Legit hoodies. Non Hawaiian hoodies. You know, you're gonna make, you're gonna make a Hawaiian hoodie apparently.

• 1:54:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think technically there's no such thing as a Hawaiian hoodie, but I will have a lighter weight hoodie for when you go to Hawaii and it turns nighttime and the wind breeze kind of blows and you're like, dang, I wish I had my long sleeve shirt on, you know, and it'll look kind of dope. That's what I think. That's my whole approach, in my opinion. There's the women's stuff on there too. Uh, you know, for the lady troopers, some tank tops and V-neck type t-shirts made specifically for the ladies.

• 1:54:50Speaker 01

  Solid, discipline equals freedom. Good one. Also, other ways to support, another way to support. Subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already on iTunes and Stitcher and Google Play or wherever you listen to uh, podcasts, whatever platform you choose to use.

• 1:55:06Speaker 01

  Also YouTube.

• 1:55:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you should subscribe to YouTube. The reason is so you can see Echo's legit videos. For instance, you just re-released one. Thank God.

• 1:55:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:55:20Jocko Willink?

  Echo had made a video for Warpath and he put Christmas music on it.

• 1:55:25Speaker 01

  Which we all loved.

• 1:55:26Jocko Willink?

  Which.

• 1:55:26Speaker 01

  It was during Christmas time and we all loved it.

• 1:55:28Jocko Willink?

  Christmas time and the thing is, the video was so graphically intense and I, I could tell. And you had actually told me that it took days, days to put together three seconds worth of

• 1:55:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:45Jocko Willink?

  film. And so when you showed it to me, I was super pumped and then I heard the music. I was super unpumped.

• 1:55:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was unpumped. And anyways, he's redone the Warpath video now as good music behind it, not Christmas music.

• 1:56:03Speaker 01

  We'll just say revised. It's revised, you know, but you know, we can still revisit the Christmas one.

• 1:56:08Jocko Willink?

  Did you pull off the old one?

• 1:56:08Speaker 01

  No, no, I left it, man. That's for us, you know, folks who like Christmas, you know?

• 1:56:13Jocko Willink?

  Oh, the Grinch over here.

• 1:56:14Speaker 01

  I know, but uh, but yeah, it's good. YouTube, yeah, subscribe to the YouTube and leave a review on the, on the iTunes thing. If you're in the mood, that's my opinion. There you go. It's a good one. Good way to support too. Also, if you are looking to improve and increase your supply of fitness gear, I just got a few things for my, my bicep brats. You know, when you kind of choose to embark on a different type of fitness, you know, I don't know, you stick with the same thing. I get it.

• 1:56:45Jocko Willink?

  No, I do different things.

• 1:56:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You get fired up. But anyway, I don't want to go into that. But I got some new stuff. Anyway, where you get it is, in my opinion, go to Onnit, so Onnit.com slash Jaco. You can get some good stuff on there, including but not limited to kettlebells. Maces. I'm gonna get battle ropes. I just read some really good stuff about battle ropes. You ever done battle ropes before?

• 1:57:06Jocko Willink?

  I've done them, but not with any kind of regularity.

• 1:57:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, like I want to, I want to do a battle rope program. Yeah, I read, man, I, I don't go in too much, but it's like, well, you know, like if you're, it's like for Metcons, you know? And you can do full body, boom, boom, boom. Yeah, it's like, it burns a lot of calories, gets you in a muscu- muscular conditioning and stuff like that, but really good. I was like, after you read it, it's like, you want to do battle ropes from now on. Anyway, go to Onnit.com slash Jaco. I got the mace from Jaco today. I was fired up.

• 1:57:39Jocko Willink?

  It's heavier than you thought.

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, and I knew it was gonna be heavy. That's the thing. Like, I know, cause it's like.

• 1:57:43Jocko Willink?

  That's only a 20 pounder.

• 1:57:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, and look, you figure.

• 1:57:46Jocko Willink?

  You know, that's, that's one of those things. I think, you know, when we talk about kettlebells and, and people will say like, what size kettlebell do you start off with?

• 1:57:55Jocko Willink?

  It's hard to narrow that down. That thing is heavy. There's not too many people that are just getting all over that twenty pound.

• 1:58:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't even, this is like too heavy. I've never done a mace workout before, by the way. This is too heavy for me to do like a workout.

• 1:58:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:10Speaker 01

  I'm like, even, even, like, it's so, it looks like a big, what do you call, not a bowling pin, but you know, the juggling pins, you know, like the people in the job. So it looks like that, but it weighs twenty pounds. It feels like it weighs like fifty pounds. Literally feels like that. Cause it's all big. Anyway.

• 1:58:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  But I'm gonna, I'm gonna work it in and I'm gonna report back. And I feel that soon, I'm gonna be a lot stronger than you, son.

• 1:58:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I like it. That's good. Speaking of that, um, if maybe you're thinking, oh, instead of working out, I'm gonna take a break. You can get the Psychological Warfare album.

• 1:58:40Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:58:40Jocko Willink?

  That has tracks. It's on iTunes, Google Play, MP3, wherever you get MP3s. Just a little bit of guidance on how to overcome situations where maybe you're not gonna get after it and you know you should.

• 1:58:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:55Jocko Willink?

  So there you go.

• 1:58:57Jocko Willink?

  Working on Psychological Warfare 2 at this time. So that'll be coming in the future.

• 1:59:02Speaker 01

  All your excuses are lies. That's gonna be the title. Psychological Warfare 2, All Your Excuses Are Lies.

• 1:59:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:08Speaker 01

  See that? Look, we just kinda came up.

• 1:59:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's good. I like how you do that.

• 1:59:12Speaker 01

  I'd call it like a spot. Like a spot. Like if I'm gonna go.

• 1:59:16Jocko Willink?

  Psychological spot.

• 1:59:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what it is. Cause you might not need it.

• 1:59:19Jocko Willink?

  Though, cause not everyone thinks of, when you say spot, you're thinking of nineteen ninety-four weightlifting, bodybuilding?

• 1:59:25Speaker 01

  Sure. Oh, no. Been powerlifting. Um, yeah, I guess you can't really spot on a, on a power clean, like Olympic lift, but nonetheless, it is a spot. Nonetheless, regardless of what analogy you wanna use, I think the band, the spot is the best because you don't need a spot necessarily. Most of the time, you don't need it. Most of the time. But if you got a spotter there and you need the spot, boom, there it is. And he's gonna spot you and he's gonna bring you through. You're not gonna let the bar bury you. You understand?

• 1:59:51Jocko Willink?

  Fair enough.

• 1:59:52Speaker 01

  Also, Jaco has some tea. It's called Jaco White Tea.

• 1:59:56Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:59:57Speaker 01

  Interestingly enough, uh, dry tea, which is tea bags and in a can, which I've been popping every day, by the way.

• 2:00:05Jocko Willink?

  So good.

• 2:00:06Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna say it's an anti-nausea medication. I'm not gonna say that. But as it turns out, it's kind of an anti-nausea medication. Super refreshing as I can, by the way.

• 2:00:17Jocko Willink?

  It's also anti weakness, because once you drink Jocka White tea, you can deadlift 8,000 pounds automatically. Hey, it's available in Canada, too, on Amazon in Canada. That's new. So, check out Canadian folks up there hanging out with Jody Minnick somewhere.

• 2:00:33Speaker 01

  Ottawa.

• 2:00:35Jocko Willink?

  Then, you can get it there, too. Also, got some books. Way of the Warrior Kid and Mark's Mission. Those are for children, but I think everyone that reads them gets something out of them. So, check them out. You might like them.

• 2:00:52Speaker 01

  That video you did with Brian Rose?

• 2:00:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:55Speaker 01

  Right, the line in the rear one. So, my brother's watching the video. I don't know why he's all like surprised. Like, he's impressed of, okay, I get it, but like, he's all surprised, impressed. You know the difference, right? So, he's watching the video. You know how you, basically the part where you were explaining Way of the Warrior Kid, part two. Mark's Mission, where you're like, okay, this psychological bully, you know, did this thing, and now Mark wants to fight him. He can fight now, knows jiu-jitsu, so he kinda wants to fight him. So, Uncle Jake's like, you know, comes in, and he's all, hey, cool, you can fight him. So, I was like, oh, okay, all right, Uncle Jake, you know, getting that's whatever. Okay, you can fight him, but first, you gotta do recon or intel, right? Intel gathering or whatever. See what up. And so, he does, and he finds out all this stuff, you know?

• 2:01:39Speaker 01

  And through like finding the stuff, whatever, he gains like a little bit of understanding or whatever. And so, instead of fighting him, maybe you should help him, kinda thing. So, it's like this little curveball. It's like, man, it's like kinda taking the high ground when you don't expect.

• 2:01:51Jocko Willink?

  So, Jay Charles kinda like that.

• 2:01:52Speaker 01

  He liked that one. He was all impressed.

• 2:01:53Jocko Willink?

  He hadn't read it yet?

• 2:01:54Speaker 01

  Impressed with it. No, but I don't let him read that thing. Still reading it to my little girl.

• 2:01:59Jocko Willink?

  That's Jack.

• 2:02:00Speaker 01

  It's kinda the ethos, right? The Way of the Warrior Kid ethos. You just read it. You just keep reading. When you're done reading it, you read it again, start all over.

• 2:02:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, she likes it. She liked the paper mache pumpkin.

• 2:02:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:10Speaker 01

  Situation. She really liked that part. She thought it was actually pretty funny.

• 2:02:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:15Speaker 01

  It was good. And also.

• 2:02:16Jocko Willink?

  Sense of humor shining through.

• 2:02:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Big time. Also, the field manual. Discipline equals Freedom Field Manual. Best book ever written. Best book physically to look at.

• 2:02:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:27Speaker 01

  My opinion, black on black.

• 2:02:28Jocko Willink?

  What do you think of that front cover photograph? Do you like that?

• 2:02:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's very iconic photograph.

• 2:02:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good one. It's uh, it's like, what do you call, like a manual for, if you make it a manual for life in general, I think you'd be on the good path right there.

• 2:02:46Jocko Willink?

  I agree. I agree. If you need a manual for some leadership, you got Extreme Ownership. That's the book that I wrote with my brother Leif Babbin, and it's about combat leadership and how you can apply the lessons that we learned on the battlefield to everything you do in your business and in your life and your relationships with people. And also coming, pretty soon actually, is the follow on to that book that I also wrote with Leif, The Dichotomy of Leadership. It is, you know, you, you've heard us talk about dichotomy all the time. It's actually the last chapter of Extreme Ownership. This is the trickiest thing about leadership is trying to balance this dichotomy. So we talk about it

• 2:03:31Jocko Willink?

  and do a deep dive and get granular on how to balance that dichotomy of leadership in that book, which is titled The Dichotomy of Leadership. You can preorder it right now. It comes out September 25th. If you don't want to get a copy when it comes out, then don't order it now and you won't get one because it's going to sell out and the publishers are slacking as usual and they'll be like, oh wait, there's probably a few of these.

• 2:03:59Speaker 01

  Projected numbers.

• 2:04:01Jocko Willink?

  Their projected numbers are off, always. And you want to get the, um,

• 2:04:08Jocko Willink?

  you want to get the first edition. That's my opinion. So do that. And for all, for, for leadership training onsite, beyond the books, beyond the podcast, I have Echelon Front. It's our leadership consulting company. We solve problems through leadership. Also, we have the muster, which is a leadership conference. There's only one more this year. It's in San Francisco, muster 006. It's October 17th and 18th. You have to register for that at extremeownership.com. Every muster we've done is sold out. This one will sell out too. And also for current military, law enforcement, border patrol, firefighters, paramedics, first responders, we've got the roll call 001,

• 2:04:53Jocko Willink?

  September 21st in Dallas, Texas. It's a focus one day leadership training seminar for people that are in uniform handling stressful situations and you can also register for that at extremeownership.com and until we are live at the muster in San Francisco or at the roll call in Texas or at the immersion camp in Maine until then if you want to cruise kind of hard with us we are on the interwebs on Twitter on Instagram and yes on that Facebook cable Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink and thanks to all the people in

• 2:05:35Jocko Willink?

  uniform out there military police law enforcement firefighters paramedics border patrol all first responders really we won't be able to do what we do without you doing what you do so thank you for protecting us and taking care of us and also thanks to your families who support you while you support us and to everyone else everyone else thanks for listening and remember what the Gettys said that it isn't just size or numbers or even courage itself that will ensure

• 2:06:16Jocko Willink?

  victory instead it is exact observance of discipline that is what it takes that is what you need so go out there and get after it and until next time this is Echo and Jaco out