Chris Ramsay: The Alien Zoo Hypothesis

Go to https://surfshark.com/americanalchemy for 4 extra months of Surfshark Magician‑turned‑UFO investigator Chris Ramsay exposes the hidden mechanics of the phenomenon. He reveals how memory, perception, and psy‑ops shape eyewitness accounts and seed modern UFO lore. He probes what humans truly encounter — and why our minds act as the first filter for anomalous events. He ties rigorous remote‑viewing research to chaos theory, showing psi accuracy peaks under low‑entropy conditions and UFOs converge on nuclear crises like Fukushima (2011) and Chernobyl (1986). He digs into NASA’s hidden symbolism and occult rituals — from Jack Parsons’ rocketry to covert launch‑patch designs hinting at agendas beyond pure science. He reframes UFOs not as cosmic invaders but as indifferent maintenance AI responding to shifts in collective consciousness. In Ramsay’s view, Earth is a cosmic seed bank overseen by biologic drones — and the greatest mystery lies within our own perception. Chris Ramsay's YouTube Channel "Area 52" ➤ @Area52Investigations -------------------------- ***JOIN OUR WHOP (Exclusive Episodes & Group Calls) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels ***Become a Member of American Alchemy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuG2KzrIMe3qoNcuDVpwnXw/join -------------------------- Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction 01:55 The Magician Perspective 10:03 Remote Viewing 15:12 Open Mindedness 17:40 Government Interest 20:32 Psychic Research 30:11 Entropy 36:34 Human Evolution 45:30 Consciousness 56:48 NASA 01:05:20 Psy Ops & Manipulation 01:21:40 Miracles 01:34:50 Psy Ops 01:48:19 Magic & Scapegoats 01:50:54 Occam's Razor & Skeptics 01:52:44 4chan Whistleblower 02:05:41 Culture of Aliens 02:21:40 Christopher Columbus 02:23:10 Storytelling -------------------------- SPOTIFY ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify INSTAGRAM ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TWITTER ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican EMAIL/BOOKINGS ➤ [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:29Jesse Michels?

  Hey, everyone. Jesse here from American Alchemy. And...

• 0:33Speaker 02

  And Chris Ramsey from Canadian Alchemy.

• 0:36Jesse Michels?

  We want to give a big thanks to Surfshark for sponsoring this episode.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  That's right. I'll tell you more about how Surfshark can keep you safe online. So stay tuned.

• 0:47Jesse Michels?

  Chris, they want to hear from me, man, not you.

• 0:49Speaker 02

  Oh, right. If you were able to use the type of technology that they are using, you'd be able to bounce around and see an infinite number of exoplanets, grabbing a plant from here, changing it up a bit, dropping it over here, and doing the same with human life. You could just like create like a little black hole around your craft, and you could go through the whole evolution of our entire known universe in an afternoon. It's like hitting the X button when you're playing a video game to like skip past all the cutscenes. It's kind of what they're doing. And so this all feels like this zoo, but not in a way that's like a zoo, but like in a way that's like the preservation of like the seed of life throughout the universe.

• 1:30Jesse Michels?

  The vector along which you are making progress is like, what do they want? What's the culture on the other side of the non-human intelligence? How do they think of us?

• 1:40Speaker 02

  They just don't care about us. It seems like an AI security system. They're kind of here until something else gets here. Some of us may by chance, through accident, get to meet the lowest form of their kind of this robotic whatever.

• 1:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  And we're like, oh my, it's God.

• 2:22Jesse Michels?

  I'm here with, at this point, my very good friend, Chris Ramsey, who just is one of the most amazing humans I know, generally. I think, you know, your former career speaks for itself. You're a world-class magician. And I think you brought your unique approach to that in that you debunk at times or show how magic is done to the average person. But then I think there's also something kind of very magical about you. And you allow for, you know, the illusion to persist at times. And now you've started probably my favorite new UFO-related channel. It has such an interesting angle because I think you are exploring themes around

• 3:04Jesse Michels?

  actually connecting with non-human intelligence or exploring what they think and how they think about the world, which is, you know, no pun intended, alien, I think, for a lot of people in this topic who are just used to kind of nuts and bolts crafts or stories around sightings. And so it's so refreshing and the world and universe that you build in each show is just next level. The thoughtfulness that you put into the set and the script and the questions is second to none. So appreciate you being here, man.

• 3:36Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you so much for saying those kind words. I really appreciate it and it means a lot coming from you, you know, being someone in the space. I think you're, you know, obviously the ambassador to this topic on the platform. And so it means a lot coming from you. Thank you so much.

• 3:51Jesse Michels?

  Well, I don't know. I don't think of myself as an ambassador, but then...

• 3:54Speaker 02

  And I think that's what makes you a good ambassador.

• 3:56Jesse Michels?

  Okay. So I want to talk about your transition from magic to UFOs. Cause I think magic gives you such an interesting lens. We were talking last night, you were talking about kind of techniques and hypnotism that you're aware of. And I'm sure that gives you an overlay or a lens through which you view the UFO thing where there's a lot of misdirection. There's a lot of, you know, weird ulterior motives and narratives and stuff. Do you think you have a better eye for those because of your magic background? You know, on American Alchemy, we're all about exploring big ideas and breakthroughs.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  So it's fitting that we'd partner with a company that takes privacy and freedom just as seriously. Thanks to Surfshark for sponsoring his video, this video.

• 4:46Jesse Michels?

  One of the coolest Surfshark features is the ability to virtually travel. With servers in over 100 countries, you can switch your IP location and unlock extra content libraries or content that's normally geo-restricted.

• 5:00Speaker 02

  If you're abroad, you can bounce back to your home country's IP so you never miss your favorite shows, no matter where you are.

• 5:08Jesse Michels?

  Additionally, public Wi-Fi hotspots like coffee shops or airports are data gold mines for hackers. Are you aware of that?

• 5:15Speaker 02

  I am now.

• 5:17Jesse Michels?

  Surfshark protects your personal info by encrypting all of your internet traffic. So whether you're downloading research articles from the show or just catching up on emails on the go, your data stays private.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  You know what? Here's the best part. Use the link, Jesse's link, his link, in the description below and go to surfshark.com

• 5:37Jesse Michels?

  slash American Alchemy for four extra months for free. How does that sound?

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Four extra months? Golly.

• 5:46Jesse Michels?

  Pretty big deal. Surfshark also has a 30-day money-back guarantee, so there's zero risk in trying it out. No risk at all.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  None.

• 5:57Jesse Michels?

  Whatsoever. One account works on an unlimited number of devices too, which is great for all your gadgets.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Try it today at surfshark.com/americanalchemist. I think I definitely have a better awareness of them. Doesn't make me immune to them. But the awareness does provide me with a little bit more of a heads up when, you know, when something's happening. I think it's a sixth sense. Naturally, as a magician, you're kind of, the interesting thing is that a lot of people like, like yourself, who are really interested in how things work and methodology. That's what draws a lot of people to becoming a magician because we're interested in methods and how things work and sort of reverse engineering a moment and how do we create this moment? How is that created? Like if you show a magic trick to someone, there's a few different reactions that someone will have.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  And depending on their background, history, you know, if you obviously do a magic trick to someone, you know, abroad or in a third world country, it might be a different reaction than if I showed someone, you know, in Vegas, a magic trick, right? So we all have our own sort of realities that we deal with when we see magic. But some people will get frustrated because all they care about is how it works, right? They're just, it doesn't sit well with them. And although I loved the fiction of it all, part of me was just like, wait a second. I need to know how this works. And so I see a lot of that in you. I see a lot of that in people who do like this investigative journalism in that they're just not satisfied until they understand how it works.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  And so that's, that's just a big part of magic is when you start observing relationships or moments or even technology, you're constantly in your brain immediately going to, okay, well, how does that function? How does that, you know, play? Cause some people will just be enamored by the actual moment. Other people will be like enamored on the outside, but on the inside, the cogs are just spinning and whirring. And they're like, well, hold on, well, how does this actually, you know, how is this possible? And then as a magician, you're able to accumulate just a wealth of knowledge through all these books that are available to, you know, magicians that are, that includes psychology, misdirection,

• 8:17Speaker 02

  showmanship, sleight of hand, all these different elements, hypnosis.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  And then so you just keep adding to your tool belt, all of these, all these method building practices. And so when you're observing things in the natural world that might not have anything to do with magic, you're automatically relating it back to some psychology or something else. And so naturally with UFO stuff, I think it's just a big puzzle. It's like a big magic trick.

• 8:46Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  And I'm like, well, what's the mechanism?

• 8:48Jesse Michels?

  It's almost the ultimate puzzle. I know very few people who spend a lot of time in it, who I think, I think there are local threads where it's like this thing might work like this and this pattern matches to this other thing I learned over here and they're uncorrelated sources. So that, you know, there's probably something to like, you know, this particular, you know, this, the sulfur coming off of, you know, like, you know, extraterrestrial bodies or whatever, you know, things like that. And you sort of build this like this model. But I know very few people who spend a significant amount of time in the topic who have a very internally consistent and comprehensive worldview as to how it works. And so in that sense, I think it's the ultimate puzzle.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely, it did, it definitely feels that way. And the finding connections, I think it's just another natural ability that our brains have. And then the deeper you go into being interested in methodology, the more you're inclined to make those connections. And someone like you, you make so many connections because you've accumulated this wealth of knowledge from all these books and all these experiences and interesting people you've spoken with, that now you and like UAP Gerb, you, you guys have this amazing ability to find these connections that otherwise I'd be oblivious to, you know what I mean? So it's, you know, for me, you guys,

• 10:13Speaker 02

  your mind works a lot, behaves a lot like a magician's mind would. But instead of learning about sleight of hand psychology, misdirection and all that, you guys have learned about, you know, the phenomenon. And so that's, that's why I'm just so enamored by what you guys are doing. Cause I, I see myself. You know, in that same realm, just with a different topic.

• 10:32Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely. Well, when did you start? So the new channel is Area 52. Everybody go subscribe right now.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  The way that it got started, I was posting on YouTube. I, you know, had a YouTube channel that dealt with magic and puzzles for a decade. And that was going, you know, fairly well. And a friend of mine who is a memory champion, Nelson Dellis, very interesting guy. Shout out to Nelson. He's a six time US memory champ, you know, very left brained, uh, went to university for physics. Teaches like computer stuff at university. He's a really genuinely smart, bright and curious person. And I caught wind of him from like this Netflix doc and I was like, we're like, he remembers things. I was like, I could use that for magic somehow, right? I want to learn how to do a mind palace. I mean, that would really help me out perhaps with a certain trick.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  And Harry Lorraine, who's this like old magician was also like a master at memory work. And so I was like, oh, I need to befriend this guy and like learn from him. And so I did that and he taught me, you know, how to memorize a deck of cards in five minutes from a shuffled stack or all these different things. And I started exchanging, you know, how I could pretend to memorize a deck and make it look the exact same. And he was really like fascinated by that. So we'd start catching out, you know, um, people who were cheating at memory stuff and got very interesting. And one day he just slips us by and he's like, yeah, I did this. He's like, do you know what remote viewing is? And I go, yeah, I think I've heard of it. I think, you know, I watched this documentary back in the day with like Soviet

• 12:06Speaker 02

  psychic spies or something. And he goes, yeah, so

• 12:11Speaker 02

  I was on this Facebook group of memory and this sort of hedge fund reached out to me.

• 12:18Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  To see if I, if I'd be willing to be trained in remote viewing in order to remote view the stock market for them.

• 12:27Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so he tells me this, I'm, I'm like, what? This sounds like a fan. It sounds like a fiction. But, uh, the headhunter who was hired by the hedge fund to train. Potential new remote viewers. Yeah. Uh, I ended up meeting, um, so one of them, uh, his name is Brett Stewart. He's a, he also remote views for a living and like, I guess, makes enough money to earn a living. You know, so for me, I'm like, that's a really interesting and important thing to say, like, you know, remote viewing is real or not, you're like, well, if this guy's Really? Making a living off of remote, that's kind of wild. Yeah. So it really shifted my perception immediately, but also red flags started popping up.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  Because as a magician, I also know, you know, there's, there's so many different factors that factor into this is, uh, you know, obviously confirmation bias and all these other factors, but I had no idea of anything Stargate S R I or any of that. And so I asked him if he could teach me because they trained him an hour a day for a month. Yeah. Before he started doing A R V associative remote viewing. When, uh, so basically you're not actually remote viewing, uh, the, the up or down of the market. You're remote viewing something, a target unknown to you. And there are two targets actually, and whatever your session is closest to, that image is, has a relationship like up or down that you don't know about.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  So that you're not actually removing the stock market and you're never told whether you're right or wrong. So there's, there's no like positive feedback loop or whatever that is. So anyways, he teaches me this, we start documenting it because I'm like, this could be cool for the channel. You know, it's something I've always been interested in, in this sort of space. And, um, we start getting really crazy results, like good results. Like it starts, you're like, whoa, this is, there might be something here. Mm hmm. And over and over and over again, it's just not to be ignored. There's just something, it's like the, even the general gestalt of a lot of these uh, viewings were correct, you know, where it's like, oh, it's a building. And then I described, and yeah, sure enough, it's a building or it's a, you know, uh, a life form or whatever that is. And so.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  Start to document this, go through the whole process. And by the end of it, I had created this like whole documentary and I was like, I can't put this on my magic channel. This is too wild.

• 14:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  And I decided to start a new channel, Area 52. And then that just led me down a rabbit hole. So long, long story. That's how I got into it.

• 14:56Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing. Well, I'm so grateful you had that experience and it bridged you into this, this new world. I, I find that interesting because that's my own experience too, which is I became interested in quote unquote, parapsychology before UFOs as well. Because I think once you start to think that physics, you know, and physics is a poor compression of what we're talking about. Reality is different than what it seems. Then it allows for all sorts of like different consensus realities and timelines and, you know, ones possibly involving, you know, extraterrestrials or craft or, you know, non-human intelligence. So yeah, it's, it's, that's a really interesting bridge and it's one that I, I had as well.

• 15:40Jesse Michels?

  Okay. So you start the channel, uh, 2023. What is the biggest thing you feel like you've updated on in the world of UFOs since starting?

• 15:51Speaker 02

  Well, I would say like, like I always, okay. So I'd, I'd entered this space with a, with a bit of a bias. I kinda had, I kinda had a centered sort of balanced perspective, but I did want to believe that these things were true. And I knew that about myself. So coming, coming into this, um, I knew that I had to try my best to put that confirmation bias aside and also give it a skeptic's sort of eye. Cause otherwise I'd just be, you know, misled and I didn't want that to happen. I also didn't want to become the amazing Randy. You know, where famously if people think of magic and they think of UFOs, they think of amazing Randy.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  He had this show where at first he would give you 10 grand if you proved something paranormal would exist. And by the end of it was a million dollars. It was a million dollars if you could prove anything sort of paranormal or parapsychological or whatever existed, ESP, all these things. In which nobody ever really collected the million dollars, but I always found it unfair watching those shows because even the energy that I'm not, and I'm not saying that anyone that did his show. Had any ability. I just thought they got off on the wrong foot. Regardless, I don't think you should approach something with such,

• 17:10Speaker 02

  you know, intense skepticism. I do think that now it might actually hinder the result somehow. You know, I think that's a possibility and I just don't want to, I kind of want to leave this space open. So coming into this space, I wanted to have this balanced perspective. Never commit to one thing or the other. Have my own sort of internal, you know, beliefs, but also be able to set those aside. And I think once I started doing that, I started unraveling in my own sort of view of reality. What, what seems to be this link between consciousness and UFOs and remote viewing?

• 17:54Speaker 02

  And I started, you know, putting it together sort of myself with all these cases, everything else. And like for me, I think that's just the most important thing to focus on in the space is this connection. And I'm not talking about psionics specifically, but like also the, the government's interest in consciousness. Yeah. Is huge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is hu- they are hugely interested in it. That is apparent. Yeah, of course. You know, if you look at what they did with Stargate, that's 20 years, $20 million. That's a lot of resources. It's a lot of time and you got to think 20 years, every year they had to go in front of a committee to make sure the budget was approved for the next year.

• 18:39Speaker 02

  That's right. And so Joe McMonigal would do that. He'd go into a SCIF. Yep. And do some remote viewing and they'd come away feeling like, well, yeah, I guess we got to keep going. Yep. Right? Yeah. So I mean, and that's a lot of pressure when you think about that. Cause like, what if you got that session wrong?

• 18:54Jesse Michels?

  Especially for something that would beget such, you know, kind of bizarro optical scrutiny.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:00Jesse Michels?

  You'd think that would be the first thing to cut.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 19:02Jesse Michels?

  The flip of that is like, I'm a skeptic on the outside and I'm saying, well, you know, B two bomber is like, you know, two billion plus or whatever. So like, why are you only spending $20 million on the most important, you know, question?

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the beauty of it because all you need is a pen and paper.

• 19:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, right. Right.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  There's no real, why do you even need 20 million?

• 19:22Jesse Michels?

  Totally.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  It's a, you know, it's, it's the cheapest form of intel.

• 19:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  And what was interesting in 90, I think in 96 was like this Dateline thing where they came out and said like, oh, it's, it's not real, like it's real, like we had this program, but honestly, it never really gave us anything and the results were whatever. And he says something kind of like, he lied by omission a little bit where he goes, something to the effect of,

• 19:49Speaker 02

  we don't, we've, we never used remote viewing as a credible, single source of intel or whatever. It was something to that effect, but the idea was that you wouldn't use any.

• 20:03Jesse Michels?

  Any mode of intel as a single source.

• 20:05Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 20:05Jesse Michels?

  It would always have to, it would always corroborate something else.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Correct. Yeah.

• 20:09Jesse Michels?

  It's always an overlay on top of like other sources and methods.

• 20:12Speaker 02

  Exactly. And that, and that's, I think the value in remote viewing for the government. They're not going to use remote viewing to, you know, find a hostage purely on remote viewing. They're going to give you coordinates of where they think the hostage is. And then they're going to remote view possibly how many guards there are in that building guarding the hostages, you know? So it, it'll never be like, hey, you know, where's the Holy Grail? And then they go dig up in the desert where the Holy Grail is. They'll always have some other piece of intel, whether it's satellite footage or witness or whatever it is.

• 20:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Before the remote viewing comes in. And so, you know, it's, I, I think for how little you're spending, you would be. You would be absolutely stupid not to use it.

• 21:00Jesse Michels?

  I've heard many remote viewers talk about it like you're viewing a bunch of possible alternative timelines, like almost like the wave function in physics or whatever. And, uh, you know, it's, it's, yeah, there's some probability that you're going to end up on the one that you have remote viewed or predicted, but you have to take it sort of loosely. And then there's obviously the analytical overlay where you get a download, but you shouldn't necessarily be the one interpreting your download. You know, somebody should be kind of intellectually scrutinizing it. And, you know, it seems like there are all these methods, uh, or failure modes rather for it. But there's a woman named Jessica Utz, who, uh, ran the American Statistical Society. And she looked at all of the data, you know, for Stargate, you know, the psychic tribe program

• 21:45Jesse Michels?

  that ran that you're talking about from the seventies to the nineties. And, uh, she looked at the whole thing and along with Ray Hyman, who is actually James Randi colleague.

• 21:53Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 21:54Jesse Michels?

  And fellow skeptic at the University of Oregon. And, uh, Utz came out saying if, uh, basically she used P-value, which I'm sure you're familiar with.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  It was highly elevated.

• 22:04Jesse Michels?

  Beyond. She was like, if, if, uh, we were to apply this scrutiny to any other field of science, it would be beyond, you know, uh, the, the P-values would be way, you know, uh, less than expected. As far as, you know, the probability that you'd, you'd, you'd get hits this many times.

• 22:21Jesse Michels?

  So, yeah, it's fascinating. We, we sort of look at that.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  The goalpost shifts.

• 22:25Jesse Michels?

  The goalpost shifts and you just say, no, well, no, you're wrong.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  It's impossible. We have to do another one.

• 22:29Jesse Michels?

  You have to do another one. And the other, the other interesting thing that you kind of touched on is like, you talked about James Randi in the world in which parapsychology is true. And there is some sort of mind-matter interaction. We don't live in this perfectly Cartesian dualist, you know, separation of mind-matter thing. Inherently, a skeptic coming to the experiment is going to affect the results. And that's why it has to be this almost epistemological paradigm shift, not a scientific paradigm shift, because that involves a priori skepticism.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:02Jesse Michels?

  And so you're going to affect, and it's crazy. And then you end up in this thing where it's like, you can't affect the results as an experimenter. I'm like, but actually you can.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:09Jesse Michels?

  But if there is an effect, of course you can.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:12Jesse Michels?

  So it's this sort of like endless kind of loop. There's a, there's a, you know, Princeton had its own parapsychology lab, the Paralab.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 23:21Jesse Michels?

  And they had this global consciousness project or whatever, where random event generators were tested. So these sort of binary computers tied to something random in quantum mechanics. And they would go off at certain moments, like nine 11.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  Was the biggest spike they've ever seen.

• 23:34Jesse Michels?

  Exactly. But they would also go off when Bob John, formerly dean of the engineering school, when he died. And so it was clear in that case, it was the opposite experimenter effect where in their mind, Bob John dying was as important as nine 11 or like, you know, somewhat as important. And so it just goes to show, I think, you end up with all this muddiness.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:59Jesse Michels?

  And it actually, you, you know, you, you, you have to kind of change your paradigm wholesale.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, even studying it becomes very difficult in that case, you know? And that's like, even, even if you, again, taking like, you know, the James Randys sort of, because a lot of people are like, well, if those like telepathy taped kids, if those kids are psychic, why don't they just collect a million dollars from James Randi? Like, well, you have to understand that those tests aren't in a vacuum either.

• 24:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  Like, those aren't, those don't live up to any scientific standards.

• 24:28Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  They're, they're, it's a game show.

• 24:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? And there's, there's, there's so much personal bias involved that like, that would never be accepted as a fair result.

• 24:37Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  Either way.

• 24:38Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely. And if, if you were to tell, like, artists, you know, an electron exists, like, nobody would like, you know, argue, then I say, have you detected an electron? And nobody would have detected an electron.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:48Jesse Michels?

  And then you say like, oh, your, your mind can somehow, you know, in a statistically significant way, we don't know how it works, but affect, you know, what's supposed to be a random output? Because it's tied to something in quantum mechanics, it's supposed to be random. You'd say, no, that's impossible. But it would, it's just your bias.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:06Jesse Michels?

  There's literally nothing about an electron measurement that you are like. You should be higher conviction in than this other thing.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:14Jesse Michels?

  Um, and so, yeah, I don't know. I find that, I find that fascinating.

• 25:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is fascinating. And even if you look at, uh, Stargate, they had to, so Dr. Edwin May, who was the chief research physicist, had to put together a scientific oversight committee for Stargate, right? Made up of like, I think like a dozen of the best minds in America. Like you had, Dr. Daryl Bem was part of that, renowned parapsychological, um, researcher. And you had Dr. Schwartz, who invented, uh, what the neutrino beam or something. He won a Nobel Prize. You had a doctor was Zimbardo, who is, who's the guy did the Stanford, uh, prison experiment.

• 25:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  So you had like this, like who's who of scientists, but the main thing that he said was like, there's, there's just one rule. You have to come into this skeptic. We have to, so they together created the kind of protocol in how to measure these p-values in these tests. And they had six remote viewers over sort of, you know, data, he has data of six remote viewers over 30 years. You know, this is a lot of data. So they have all of this data with these, you know, with these people and they had to like sort of map out, how do we effectively test them? Because it's so, there's so many variables to consider when you're drawing, you know, a building. Like, okay,

• 26:35Speaker 02

  if I have a building and I just draw like, the, the target is a building and I draw just like a rectangle, what is that? How do you quantify that? How do you put that on a number scale? Well, does the building have windows? Now, if you're drawing windows, and now the windows, right? And so like, maybe the ratio to a person in the building for the height. So there's all these little tiny factors that they would have to factor in, because otherwise confirmation bias could be like, yeah, rectangle, rectangle, it's a building. He got it. 10 on 10, right? So they really had to be skeptical and be like, look, we have to draw that line. You know, in a way that that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt. And I think, I think, you know, Dr. May wrote together with, you know, other collaborators over

• 27:19Speaker 02

  two million words on, on that, right? And you have all the hits and the misses. It's not like he's only showing you the good results. You have the bad results too, but if you consider the P value and the amount of times they got something right and the high accuracy, it almost makes you think they're cheating sometimes when you look at the results. You're like, how?

• 27:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  You know?

• 27:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. No, I've been with McMonigal and experienced it myself where it's like a friend of mine drew like a little spiky thing and it was a pineapple and it's like, and the pineapple was in this manila envelope that McMonigal had brought and you're like, this feels like magic, like it's insane. What, what the hell is going on? And this wasn't even McMonigal, this is McMonigal teaching us the method in like a 10 minute period.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:03Jesse Michels?

  So it's so fascinating. I think if you were to audit anybody's kind of day to day, you know, experience, they would say they experienced all sorts of things like this. And then I think what something like that needs to turn into mainstream science is you need to be able to put math behind it and you need to make it repeatable, like very repeatable. And I think we don't know how to do either. You know, I think the repeatability is it's still like loose enough where it's, it's not like, you know, every time I drop this pen, it like, you know, drops to the ground, like you're not like gravity or whatever. And it's hard to put math to it.

• 28:39Speaker 02

  It's hard to quantify that, yeah.

• 28:40Jesse Michels?

  It's hard to quantify, but it doesn't make it less of a very real and measurable anomaly that will likely point to a future kind of scientific paradigm because they always do.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  Yep. But they are doing interesting things to support more accurate results. So they're finding ways to enhance the results. And, you know, by doing tests over and over and over and over with the same people, you're able to map out, you know, what works and what doesn't. And really interesting findings, one was, you know, when they originally found these remote viewers, they'd, they'd basically reached out to 600 individuals and tested them, 1% of which turned out to have a significant talent in remote view. But these people ranged from all walks of life, but like mental level geniuses. You had you had Stanford alumni in there. You had intelligence people. You had civilians.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  And out of all these people, out of 600 people, six people were chosen to have significant talent. Now, six out of 600 doesn't seem like much. That's 1% of the population. That's quite a bit when you think about it.

• 29:42Jesse Michels?

  And of a very elite pool to begin with.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Correct. Yeah. Well, elite, but it also had like, it had all sorts of people in there at the end. It wasn't just, you know, like, super geniuses or anything. It didn't matter. It was these other factors. And one of those factors was these people, they found out afterwards, all had synesthesia.

• 30:02Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing. So these are the original people picked for Stargate?

• 30:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:05Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 30:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:07Jesse Michels?

  They all had synesthesia. For the audience, synesthesia is the kind of entanglement or coupling of senses. So like every time you hear a particular note, you you know, you see a color or something like Kanye West, I think, or Pharrell have like.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Or you could smell, you could smell a sound or like it's the it's the mixing of senses, how your brain interprets two different senses. Those people apparently have pretty had the had the best results.

• 30:37Jesse Michels?

  Well, there's a woman named Dr. Iya Whitley. She's a space psychologist and she works on with astronauts and fighter pilots for their like sort of space readiness or like high performance environments. But on the side, and maybe this is not on the side, maybe this is related to her core work. She, so babies apparently are all born with synesthesia.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Oh, right.

• 30:59Jesse Michels?

  And six months in, they lose synesthesia. And so she is working on modalities to help babies and children retain.

• 31:08Speaker 02

  Preserve it.

• 31:08Jesse Michels?

  Their their synesthesia for longer. Because I'm sure you lose all sorts of perceptive awareness in the process, all of what you're talking about right now, where if there's a correlation between that and remote viewing, maybe you come out of the womb with more of these latent abilities.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  Yep, and you're, you know, also closer to the source, kinda, right? You're coming right out of that. And I mean, that is, that is really interesting, especially when you tie it back to these nonverbal autistic children, where a lot of them also are synesthetes.

• 31:37Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  You know, so there is, um, it is interesting to think that, hey, if there's a way to induce synesthesia, or to preserve it, or to train it.

• 31:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  Or to just nurture it naturally even, um, that that might lead to better results in these, in the psi sort of sphere.

• 31:57Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 31:57Speaker 02

  Um, one, another really interesting part is entropy is a big factor in these results as well. The more entropy something has, the more accurate the, um, the session is.

• 32:12Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating because there's even a term called centropy in biology, which is, uh, biological systems, their attraction to order and to non-entropic system. One of the greatest neuroscientists of our time is a guy named Carl Friston. He has the free energy principle and neurons are literally attracted to, uh, lower entropy systems. You know, not, not, you can randomize signals and, and make neurons, you know, train them to do things through Pavlovian conditioning because that's seen as punishment, uh, for them. So that is, that's just fascinating that, um, uh, that we're sort of attracted to, to, to order. And then, and then maybe you're more likely to view something that is disordered.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the reason for that might be also that our brains are kind of hardwired to detect change, right? And so if you look at the Gansfeldt experiments, for example, you're, you're basically numbing your senses. You're kind of in a sensory deprivation thing due to having like a red light in your face for 10 or 15 minutes. Eventually, because it hasn't changed at all, your brain perceives it as black. You just won't see it anymore. And then that white noise you're listening to after about 10 or 15 minutes ceases to be heard as well. Cause your brain's kind of, it's kind of like if you walk into a room and you can smell something like in your house. You're like, what is that smell? And a half an hour later, it's gone, you don't smell anymore. You get used to it, your brain.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  Tends to not detect it if there's no entropy, if there's no change. And so on perhaps a quantum field level, we're also hardwired to detect change, which makes it a lot easier to remote view places that have nuclear energy or bombs, or you know, anything regarding someone's life. Cause that apparently has a big entropic sort of correlation as well that the loss of life or the endangerment of life actually allows the remote viewers to have a more accurate viewing, which is why like hostage situations or like finding missing children, those, those things are all really, really easier to remote view.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  They used to dose target sites with liquid nitrogen and they would get more accurate results when they did that.

• 34:31Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:32Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating because it creates local entropy.

• 34:34Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 34:35Jesse Michels?

  Well, it makes so much, I've always thought there was an interesting angle there with the nuclear stuff. Because often with nuclear spills, there's this woman named Jen Seen Andreessen, Harvard PhD, who documents a lot of these nuclear disasters and how UFOs show up consistently around the nuclear disaster. So, I mean, there aren't that many at this point, but like the, the two kind of most staple ones would probably be Fukushima in, in 2011 and then Chernobyl in the nineties.

• 35:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:01Jesse Michels?

  And in, in both cases, people see the UFOs come down and seemingly clean up the radiation. And there's all this interesting novel work in science right now being done. There's a guy named Michael Levin at Tufts, talks about bioelectricity and the bioelectric field of the body and how basically the, the electromagnetic field that a biological system is growing up in dictates its morphology in a more fundamental way than, you know, the, what he calls the hardware, which is just the DNA and the proteins. And so you have this software writing, like this coding going on from the environment itself. And you have to think if a nuke goes off, it totally messes with that.

• 35:44Jesse Michels?

  And radiation accelerates evolution. Like if you look at like Chernobyl now, you have like mutated dogs and frogs and you know,

• 35:52Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 35:52Jesse Michels?

  Because it's just differential selection plus mutation. So like the more mutations you get, the more, you know, the more variation selection, yeah. And then, and then on the flip side, you know, you can kind of, you know, stagnate. You, you put a frog embryo in a Faraday cage and it doesn't grow properly.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:09Jesse Michels?

  So there's something about the magnetosphere of the earth that is um, almost like this perfect Petri dish for life.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 36:16Jesse Michels?

  And if you're like this UFO, like monitoring the thing.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:18Jesse Michels?

  You freak out when like you see, you see this like high entropy spike.

• 36:22Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 36:22Jesse Michels?

  You go, and then I'm sure like same with our remote viewing.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:26Jesse Michels?

  Abilities.

• 36:26Speaker 02

  And I think that's why we have them in a sense, like this isn't new. We're kind of rediscovering this perhaps intuitive sense, but perhaps to them, they're hardwired in a way to be way more receptive to that. So they don't have to hang around maybe. Maybe they could be on the other side of the universe and they get this entropic spike and they just know that they gotta like boop, show up, take care of business, right? And almost like a failsafe.

• 36:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 36:52Speaker 02

  And so maybe genetically somehow we inherited that from, from, you know, whatever, whatever theory of life you wanna, you, you wanna put to that. But I think that maybe that's just like a fundamental part of also um, survival.

• 37:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 37:06Speaker 02

  You know, so if you look at like, cause obviously extraterrestrials, this is like, we think of this as like the peak evolution of, you know, of hu- uh, of humankind perhaps, or of a, of living entity. Uh, you, you become really attached to this quantum field and therefore you can have all these amazing abilities like telepathy and remote viewing. And perhaps, you know, uh, by location and all these amazing things, right? But on a lower scale, uh, which would be like us or even our ancestors. Um, we, we kind of only have that when necessary for survival. It's like the very bottom of it, but it would probably be used, and Joe McMonigal talks a lot about that too.

• 37:47Speaker 02

  It'd probably be used to like know where to dig for water or know where to set up camp or know where not to go at night. Or, you know, what?

• 37:57Speaker 02

  Uh, what, what food to eat? Like, how did the shaman know not to eat this mushroom? Oh, the mushroom told me. Like, he had this like intuitive instinct. They wouldn't just eat it and then die and be like, don't eat the mushrooms here.

• 38:08Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 38:09Speaker 02

  They would know. They would like tell people, no, the, the plants are speaking to me. And that's kind of how they, and so there is this like sense of, um, I, I, I do think there is a very, very fundamental, uh, sigh ability in everybody when it comes to survival. And that's why we experience things like this during high stress environments. Because we're triggering something that perhaps allows us to, in some precognitive way, know what's going to happen a second before it does, before we get hit in the face or shot or like, so I, I think we still have that innate ability. But then there are these mutations, uh, in, in people's physiology that allow them to have,

• 38:55Speaker 02

  you know, uh, access to, you know, these, these synesthesia properties that allow them to have a little bit more. And, and, and I think it's really interesting. And I don't know if whether, you know, the, the autism thing that we're experiencing, I think you, you touched on this too, is perhaps related to this. Like, what is this? Is this, why are we seeing more of these cases now? Is this just some type of weird evolution? Or is this, you know, is this bad? Is this good? It's just interesting.

• 39:23Jesse Michels?

  Oh, it's so fascinating. And, and I think our world now, you know, is, is kind of an anomaly compared to the past where we have sanitization, we have safety. But, uh, really, you know, we were constantly under duress, stress, and, you know, there's sort of prey and say, or sorry, predators and safety concerns constantly in the past. And especially, you know, evolution occurs along, you know, a couple of different tracks. You have individual selection, sexual selection, but you also have group selection. And often in a group, you have a person who is selected for, who, um, might not be selected for on an individual level. And they're selected for more if the group is under duress.

• 40:07Jesse Michels?

  So geniuses are often asexual, they're they're not super social, you know, they're not they're maladaptive in all these other ways. And if you talk to Joseph Bigmonigal, you know, remote viewer number one, he'll say that shamans in the past were often very sickly. And, you know, on an individual level, not the most vital or likely to kind of, you know, uh, move their genes forward, but, uh, really selected for by the group because they led the group. And I mean, it's

• 40:34Speaker 02

  They were fed, they were brought Madison because they would also provide that service to the rest of the group, which is like these precognitive things or these readings.

• 40:42Jesse Michels?

  It's totally adaptive to get these downloads that where if the whole world is sort of a search space, like, it's like, what, what is the likelihood you're going to come up with the the vine that's DMT rich and the, you know, MAO inhibitor or whatever, that needs to come from some different epistemic pathway than like trial and error, Malcolm Gladwell, 10,000 hours. It does. And if that exists at all, it's going to be selected for in those paradigms or contexts when you're sort of in the dark and you're like with a little clan of people. And I think that just exists sort of less. And the other kind of mental model to have around it is that maybe we are ported into these low level senses, a la

• 41:27Jesse Michels?

  Plato, like we were in a cave. And, you know, Plato would say, don't trust your senses. There's a higher world of kind of, you know, ideas and and kind of platonic ideals up here.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 41:39Jesse Michels?

  You know, that that supersede the world of forms. And when you see these kids, these nonverbal autistic kids in the telepathy tapes, remote view, they need to be situated in their bodies, which you think of like a VR headset, you need to like see your hands and then you're like in it. And you're like, okay, I'm good. I'm in the VR thing. I'm ported in. And if you, if you don't, you're still like in some other kind of liminal realm.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:05Jesse Michels?

  And being in that liminal realm might give you more access to the primordial stuff, to that different epistemic circuit where you get the downloads. And that, that feels like them. They're disembodied in some ways, but they're connected to like more primordial, you know, knowledge as well. What is up alchemists? If you're interested in joining group calls with me and accessing exclusive, never before seen episodes of American alchemy, like my walk and talk with Danny Sheehan on who exactly killed JFK? Or a remote viewing debate between Hal Putoff and Eric Weinstein? Then please join our WAP community today. We've been sitting on a ton of unreleased footage that we will now be releasing on our new WAP.

• 42:47Jesse Michels?

  I also hosted a discussion between the infamous Jack Zarfati and former American alchemist, Science Bob McGuire. Head over to WAP.com/Jesse Michaels, Michaels with no A, to become a member today. That's WAP.com/J-E-S-S-E-M-I-C-H-E-L-S. Thank you so much and enjoy the rest of today's episode.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  Kind of like, yeah, these are like the avatars that we sort of inhibit and they, they are, they can function autonomously.

• 43:13Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  They don't need like our bodies, I don't think, need the consciousness to survive. I think that you have a brain for that and you have, you know, a heart for that and a stomach for that. The consciousness is kind of what was driving everything. But I do think like on a survival basis, like we jump back to using the physicalness to help us sort of, you know, navigate this planet. But yeah, definitely that's, you know, why we get these quote unquote downloads through meditation, through astral projection, through dreams. These are all states that you don't need your body for. And you know, your, your body is, I think, your brain, you know, uses time and uses all these things to help it survive.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  But I, I think that we're getting to a point in our evolution where survival isn't like an imminent factor in our daily lives. We live very, I'm not speaking for everyone, obviously, but in the Western world, there's, you know, we live very comfortably. And so because of that, now it seems like. Perhaps these innate abilities that come from, you know, a higher consciousness are now seeming to, to, to present themselves a little bit more. Perhaps because of this comfort, we're allowing ourselves to leave our bodies now. We don't have to babysit the physical body anymore.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  And we're kind of, oh, you know, experimenting with these DMTs and these everything else to try and, you know, get what's out there in a, in a more meaningful way and in a less, stress induced environment. I think like, cause you know, you hear these Jake Barbers that say like, oh, you know, it's stress inoculation. And like, you gotta be under high stress for this thing to happen. And I'm like, I think, yes, I think that's probably a way of doing it. And of course, like you probably get some results, but I think it's really important that we work perhaps towards a way of achieving that through other emotional states. Because I think it might be, you know, it might take a lot more work and a lot more studying,

• 45:19Speaker 02

  at less instant results, like than zapping someone and telling them, what do you see? You know, is maybe meditating for a year, you know, an hour every day for a year and seeing what happens then. You know, or, or try, you know, I'm not saying trying drugs, but like, you know, experimenting safely with these other alternative psychedelics to see if there's something there. I think, I, you know, I think definitely we should be leaning a little bit more into that than leaning into the fear side of it. That's just intuitively what I think, you know, it might help you survive, but I don't think it really helps you connect.

• 45:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  You know, in, in a meaningful way.

• 45:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So if UFOs show up, you know, in high entropy systems where it's like they have to restore the order around, kind of radiation or nuclear spills. I feel like another pattern, again, in the UFO world where it's so hard to find actually patterns. It's so, it's so confusing. Is they seem to show up around people in particular states of consciousness. And we were at a party the other night and some friends of mine brought up this hyperion sci fi trilogy or something. I might be botching this, but in it, apparently, according to them, uh, we're like, you know, flames that like, like little nodes that light up.

• 46:38Jesse Michels?

  And like, like a moth to a flame, they see when people reach certain levels of consciousness. Do you, do you think that the UFOs sort of exist in that, in that way where, where, um, you know, it's sort of high entropy? With, you know, trying to clean up the nuclear spills, but then also they are attracted to people who seem like they are lighting up consciousness wise?

• 47:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that could be the case and I don't want to generalize. Because I also do think we might not be dealing with one entity here.

• 47:10Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 47:10Speaker 02

  And so there could be a, a plethora of, of outcomes here and, and reasons why we're being visited or, or, you know, we could have been conditioned and manipulated genetically to do that. So it's no surprise to them. They're not coming from that far. They're just kind of like, oh, finally they're, they're doing the thing. Um, you know, I often think it's, it's, it's interesting, but I often think that like, you know, we, we place ourselves in kind of the center of our own universe, obviously from our perspective. And we do assume that there is life out there, you know, you'd be, you'd be an idiot not to assume that there is intelligent life in this universe.

• 47:52Speaker 02

  Other than us, I think, um, however, if you were able to use the type of technology that they are using, which is seemingly almost instantaneous travel through time and space, like these warping of gravity and manipulating of space time, where they can just appear and disappear, you'd be able to bounce around and see an infinite number of exoplanets, right? And if you consider that we are, where we're going right now, our human trajectory is showing us that we have people like Elon Musk, um, who want to get past this barrier and preserve

• 48:33Speaker 02

  life by spreading our seed onto other planets in the solar system and eventually out into the galaxy. If that is our goal for humanity. You know, I'd like to pitch, I'd like to fast forward that. And I'd, I'd think it's pretty depressing that we end up just constantly living underground elsewhere. Because even, even all of these exoplanets, there's never going to be the perfect gravity, or the perfect radiation levels, or carbon dioxide, or there's always going to be something that's going to kill you, right? Cause you're just, you didn't grow there. And so you're constantly be wearing suits or living in a bubble. And it just doesn't seem like a really good way to preserve your species.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  And so I, I think that if you were able to bounce around the universe and find all these exoplanets, it would be a lot easier and make way more sense if we were to find the native life that already inhabited these planets and simply manipulate our genetic code into theirs. So that way we could live there, maybe not me personally, but my ancestors or something. And so we'd start jumping around the universe instantly to maybe a hundred thousand exoplanets, all at the same time. And then grabbing a plant from here, changing it up a bit, dropping it over here and doing the same with human life or, or whatever type of life you find there. And like experimenting, perhaps on this planet, we're going to, you know, insert a little bit

• 50:01Speaker 02

  more of this, um, consciousness attracting, um, you know, genetic system into a lizard and see how that turns out. And then do that with apes and then do that with birds or, you know, and, and try all these different things out. And then every thousand years pop back and introduce agriculture or irrigation systems or metallurgy or religion and language and just kind of like see how these things are all seeding and how they're all, you know, sort of growing together. And then, I, I mean, this is going really deep and far, but I also think that if you were able to manipulate gravity in such a way, let's say I didn't have a home planet

• 50:45Speaker 02

  and you could just, yeah, you could just like tune your craft to like a, a higher density or something and just create like a essential little black hole around your craft and fast forward a thousand years.

• 50:59Speaker 02

  So essentially, you could go through the whole evolution of our entire known universe and the seeding of it in an afternoon, you know? Like, it wouldn't, it wouldn't change anything. If you don't have any loved ones at home waiting for you and you're just in a craft locally, then time is of no consequence. Like, what happens on the outside of that craft doesn't change what happens on the inside.

• 51:22Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  So why wouldn't you just do something, fast forward, keep doing it, fast forward? And literally, like, you know, it's like hitting the X button when you're, when you're playing a video game to like, you know, skip past all the, uh, all the cutscenes.

• 51:35Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  It's kind of what they're doing.

• 51:37Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  I think. Why wouldn't you do it that way? Why would you wait?

• 51:40Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:41Speaker 02

  Sounds so weird if you can manipulate time.

• 51:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 51:44Speaker 02

  And so it just, I, I just think that like, and then you hear these high machads and like the Galactic Federation, they're here to stop our nukes. We hear that all the time. We, we catch some of them picking up samples and putting them on their ships through these. And so this all feels like this, this zoo, but not in a way that's like a zoo, but like in a way that's like the preservation of like the seed of life throughout the universe.

• 52:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 52:10Speaker 02

  I kind of, I kind of feel like that's what we're, that's what's happening. Like, if you look at all the signs.

• 52:15Jesse Michels?

  No, it's so fun. I mean, like Elon Musk always says, we have to preserve the tiny candle flickering in the darkness of human consciousness. But then you think about, I actually, at one time I had the very great honor of meeting Werner Herzog, who like spent a lot of time with Elon. And he was like, you know, a great German documentarian.

• 52:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, great narrator.

• 52:35Jesse Michels?

  Amazing narrator, amazing. In fact, when I met him, his son went to college to me, with me, and introduced me, um, to, to Werner. And, um, I was like, how was Simon, you know, his son? And he goes, oh, Simon, you know, injured his hat, like, and it's like typical German, I'm gonna botch it. But he starts narrating his son's like, you know, uh, uh, uh, basically like.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  He fell off his bicycle.

• 53:00Jesse Michels?

  Yes, yes.

• 53:01Speaker 02

  And when he came to the ground, his hand was broken.

• 53:06Jesse Michels?

  Yes, yes. And he kept going super descriptive in that monotone, like, like grisly man style, like.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  Feeling the pain of his hand. He couldn't go.

• 53:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, oh, I hope he feels better.

• 53:20Speaker 02

  Imagine him reading bedtime stories at night, eh? That's wild. Him or Morgan Freeman.

• 53:24Jesse Michels?

  Exactly, exactly. Um, so I spent a little bit of time with him and he was like, you know, I think he really admired Elon. They spent some time together. But he was like, what are you gonna do on Mars? Like, you're gonna like, put yourself in a telephone booth, an oxygenated telephone booth? Like, he was like, this isn't realistic. This is crazy.

• 53:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:43Jesse Michels?

  Not only, uh, from the standpoint of, you know, I always point out, as I'm sure you do and others in the UFO world, that like the chemical combustion thing is a fool's errand. Like literally like using like physics as we know it, like Newtonian laws doesn't make any sense. Just if you look at biological lifetime scales to get to the next level, even this idea of the Carteshev scale.

• 54:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:05Jesse Michels?

  Is, you know, you have, you know, a single planet, uh, you know, a, a species, you have a multiplanet species, multi-solar system species, multi-galaxy species. It's all couched under, uh, that species ability to harness energy.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  Harness energy.

• 54:19Jesse Michels?

  Can you harness the energy of your planet? Can you harness the energy, you know, Dyson sphere of the sun or whatever? That itself is probably extremely limited by our frameworks.

• 54:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 54:30Jesse Michels?

  And so it's probably something way more like consciousness. If there is any separation between soul and body.

• 54:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:37Jesse Michels?

  It's obviously adaptive to not like be stuck in like a meat suit if you're traveling elsewhere.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  Correct, yeah.

• 54:43Jesse Michels?

  And I think the other thing that you said that I find very fascinating is like, you know, there could be a whole plethora of things going on. If you admit that there are, you know, one faction of aliens, the answer is probably not one at that point. It's, it's kind of zero to infinity.

• 54:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 54:58Jesse Michels?

  You know, like the likelihood that there is just one species that's reached you is much lower than like, again, it's either zero. The Fermi paradox is like, it somehow is a paradox or much more than that.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a lot. Yeah. What's the, um, what's, what's the thing in Star Trek? It's called like the, the, was it the first protocol or what is the?

• 55:18Jesse Michels?

  The, the, the prime directive.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  The prime directive. Yeah.

• 55:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  I feel like that has some truth to it as well.

• 55:22Jesse Michels?

  Oh, for sure.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  Like where they're waiting for us to get to a certain point and it's like. I find if I were this like omnipotent ruling being who is able to create life and generate consciousness within these complex life forms and sort of am intelligent enough to manipulate all of this and to watch it grow and to like be the cedar of life throughout the universe, seeing Elon build these, you know, gas propelled sort of ships and trying to make it to like this desolate dead planet to make to seed life, I'd be like, ah, cute, right? It's kind of like when I watch a crow use a stick to get his food.

• 56:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  Right? Where I'm like, you're on the right track, buddy.

• 56:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  You're doing it.

• 56:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 56:11Speaker 02

  Good job. You know, you're so cute and smart.

• 56:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 56:14Speaker 02

  But I do think like, you know, anything we can think of is probably already been thought of in the universe and in the grand scan, the grand sort of scale of where information lives. I don't think we're making anything new. And so, you know, all of this, all of this whole process of trying, I think is, is cute. But I ultimately think that if that's the goal, then someone had already achieved it in the universe. You know, it's like if this world were to disappear tomorrow, we'd come up with the same math formulas if a new one appeared.

• 56:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 56:44Speaker 02

  Like, so where does that come from? Right? Information is in a cloud. It's all around us. It's sort of omnipresent. And so we're not really inventing anything. We're just kind of rediscovering things all the time. And if that's true, then fast forward it all and it probably already exists. And so therefore, you know, we're probably already being observed by these things and then, you know, and they're just kind of like, oh, that's nice.

• 57:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 57:07Speaker 02

  What they're doing.

• 57:08Jesse Michels?

  And then maybe when somebody lights up along the vector they care about, the consciousness thing, they take note.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 57:15Jesse Michels?

  And they take an interest.

• 57:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:17Jesse Michels?

  Speaking of the Elon thing, you know, there are all these rumors, you did an amazing piece on Chris Blood, so I recommend everybody check out.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 57:25Jesse Michels?

  This guy in North Carolina, he had some very anomalous experiences involving beings in a craft. And he started to get visited by all these higher ups at NASA and the CIA. What do you make of these rumors that NASA is more than meets the eye? And that actually the history of rocketry is much stranger than we think. You have like stories of Jack Parsons, the founder of the American Rocket Program saying, you know, basically implying he was in touch with other intelligence along with Chikovsky, the, you know, Russian equivalent, Werner von Braun was definitely very trippy guy.

• 57:58Speaker 02

  And I think if you rewind even more so, you get into the Nazis infatuation with the occult as well. Right. And where did a lot of those Nazis end up? You know, after through paperclip and through, and through.

• 58:11Jesse Michels?

  Running our space program.

• 58:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Running our space programs and then, and, uh, and overcast as well. Right. And so like you, Lord knows where those people are.

• 58:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 58:21Speaker 02

  So in other, in other, you know, denominations and defactions of the government. But, you know, so you have to think that like, that was some type of weird tradition that those sort of Nazis were doing back in the day first. They were kind of already, and then like rewind further back, you know, and if the further you go back, the more that this stuff becomes really, really relevant. And it just, I don't think it just ever went away. You know, I don't think this is new that like NASA is doing this.

• 58:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So what do you make it? Do you believe like Diana Pasulka, you know, wrote some amazing books on UFOs. She's a religious studies professor. She talks about second century Latin being written.

• 59:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, like old Latin.

• 59:05Jesse Michels?

  Old Latin. Uh, uh, I think on the, the rocket.

• 59:08Speaker 02

  The rocket.

• 59:09Jesse Michels?

  Like the fairing or something. Um, what do you, what do you make of that?

• 59:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I looked into a lot of those patches actually, which was really interesting. Like they have these launch patches, these mission patches at NRO. And a lot of them are just kind of morale boosters. And, you know, I was even trying to figure out like, who's designing these? And for the main part, it's the crew. Uh, the crew are the ones that are in charge of what the patches are and the missions are. So sometimes you'll see little e-strikes in those patches with like crew initials. And that type of thing. And then other times, yeah, you'll see like kind of more esoteric or occult, you know,

• 59:47Jesse Michels?

  A ton.

• 59:48Speaker 02

  Depictions, yeah.

• 59:48Jesse Michels?

  You do an amazing and like in each, almost all of your episodes, you do like a patch review.

• 59:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, the, the earlier ones. Yeah, we do, we do a lot of those. Yeah.

• 59:57Jesse Michels?

  And they're fantastic. And some of them are so strange. Like the, the devil you know is, is, is, you know, the devil you know is better than the devil you don't or something. And it's like, why are you writing this? Or like, you know, you talk about misty echo, which I think you tweeted, you know, on the, uh, I think it was an area 51.

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:14Jesse Michels?

  Patch. It's so, and it's like an egg and like a lady inside the egg.

• 1:00:17Speaker 02

  Blowing, flying.

• 1:00:19Jesse Michels?

  And you're like, is, you asked the question, is it, are you just totally messing with us? Or, you know, and it's like this hilarious inside joke? Or is there something to it?

• 1:00:29Speaker 02

  I think it's both.

• 1:00:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I definitely think it's both. I think sometimes it's one, sometimes it's the other, sometimes it's more. But, you know, if you, if you listen to Diana Pasulka, and she talks about this a lot, about the ritualistic sort of performative, rituals that they do prior to launching, like wearing the same type of clothes or standing in a certain spot or eating a certain food or whatever that is, there's like these, these minor rituals. And I think the way that she kind of puts it is that

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  the math on rocket launching, it has to be so accurate. Like the physics on it and everything has to line up so almost divinely. Because if there's a hair off of any one of these components and all of these compartmentalized components, by the way, like when you're working, this isn't just UFOs. When you're working at a rocket company, you're compartmentalized. You're not, you don't know what part this goes to. You just have to make it do the one thing they're asking. It'd be much easier if they could tell you what it's for, but they don't, right? So all of these things have to line up that's so precise, like.

• 1:01:40Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  No deviation.

• 1:01:42Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  And so they think that, well, why not also line that up, the spiritual?

• 1:01:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:49Speaker 02

  And so part of me understands that.

• 1:01:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  Like, if you're, if you're working with stuff that's so precise, lives are in danger a lot of times. You know what I mean? And, and a lot of money is on the line, a lot of pressure and a lot of stress, like, you know, I, I don't, I don't see the difference between that and praying.

• 1:02:07Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah, no.

• 1:02:08Speaker 02

  So I do think there is like this divine alignment that they, now, the question is,

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  is there a data set that shows a significant

• 1:02:21Speaker 02

  difference?

• 1:02:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, I think, I think both of us would say the data set is just parapsychology or something. It's like, it's like the, the random event generator stuff.

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  Yes, but like-

• 1:02:31Jesse Michels?

  Your mind and its orientation has any impact on reality.

• 1:02:34Speaker 02

  Right, exactly. So doing these rituals probably amplifies that positive outlook towards the outcome and thus maybe collapses the wave function in that, you know, particular way. So, you know, there might be something to it. I, I do think everything is balanced. And, you know, there was an interesting thing that Bledsoe said, that Chris Bledsoe said, that he was told as well as that, like, they were like, why do our rockets get shot? Like, they're, they're not getting launched out there. And he asked, are there weapons on them? And they said, yeah. And he goes, that's why. That's why it's not working. They don't want it to work. That's what he said.

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  So, you know, I don't know whether there's any truth to that.

• 1:03:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:22Speaker 02

  But I think maybe the, you know, intention is obviously a very important factor in psi.

• 1:03:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  And I think in life.

• 1:03:30Jesse Michels?

  And outcomes in life.

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  Correct. And so if the intent is to harm, defend or attack regardless, yeah, I think that maybe you would need to. You know, sort of align yourself elsewhere.

• 1:03:46Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  Uh, so that it, so that it happens.

• 1:03:49Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:03:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. You have to balance it out.

• 1:03:52Jesse Michels?

  So like align yourself with bad factions to make it work.

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  Possibly.

• 1:03:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:57Speaker 02

  Who knows?

• 1:03:58Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. Yeah. It's, it's really fascinating. I mean, even you can watch like, you know, countdown to launch about SpaceX and Gwen Shotwell, who's the COO of SpaceX, who basically runs it at this point. She's like, I wear my special shoes, you know, for, for launch or whatever, like, like everybody in that world does have a ritual. And Jack Parsons actually read, uh, this book called The Golden Bough by JG Frazier, this 19th century anthropologist. And that book involves hermetic magical, magical rituals among indigenous tribes. And they engage in two forms of magic, homeopathic magic and sympathetic magic.

• 1:04:35Jesse Michels?

  Homeopathic magic, I'm sure you're somewhat familiar with these concepts, you know, is like, uh, I believe the likeness of, you know, an object you're trying to affect. So it's like a voodoo doll or something. And sympathetic magic is like, you know, hair, teeth and nails, like literally like stuff from the thing you're trying to affect. So all of this seems like kind of this, you know, weird witchcraft or whatever. But JG, uh, uh, JG Frazier, this anthropologist notices that when these tribes encounter kind of enlightenment skepticism and thought, the rituals lose their power.

• 1:05:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:05:10Jesse Michels?

  And, um, Jack Parsons read that book and he came out saying, I believe that, uh, science is a form of magic. Magic is not a form of science, which you being a magician, I don't know, I don't know how you feel about that because we've gone back and forth on, you know, and you're like, you know, there are all sorts of things that seem like sort of totally remarkable and you're like, yeah, but like I could tell you how to do that. And then there are other things where you're like, but. Given the right circumstances for a magician, like magicians are more likely to encounter sort of miracles as well.

• 1:05:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:43Jesse Michels?

  So like, how do you reconcile? That's so fascinating.

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, yeah, no, I am kind of torn on that because on one hand, I do believe that everything can be explained prosaically. As a magician, that is my job to deconstruct something. So my job is to make the impossible seem real. Right? And it's a very strange and, and, and hard thing to do. So, you know, for instance, we would start with the effect, which is the moment of astonishment the spectator would feel and, uh, and then work backwards from there. Right? So what the effect is, let's say, okay, you want the effect to be, uh, 100 people seeing a UFO appear

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  in the sky. Okay. So the method that I'm, that I'm thinking, uh, like there's so many methods that I can go back to. Is, okay, there's technology. Obviously we can involve some type of like hologram technology. We can amplify that using probably sound as well, even like some type of vibration. Uh, we can then amplify that. We could probably mask some, uh, some of that as well. If it was nighttime, right? Obviously you can, you can get away with a lot more at night. Maybe in the middle of the night, if we wake these people up, they'll be a little bit more susceptible to using their imagination and being in like this dream state. Um, you know, perhaps these people as well are more inclined to believe something like this. Before we get into it,

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  let's survey the area and try to find people who would be more inclined to believe in something like this, you know? So when you start deconstructing things as a magician, you can create the reality, right? You create the framework for what they believe is real.

• 1:07:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:28Speaker 02

  And that, that's what PSYOP is too. It's the exact same thing.

• 1:07:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, that's literally where my mind went. It's like, if you were perpetrating a PSYOP in this area, you'd look for like these specific traits around like high impressionability.

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:40Jesse Michels?

  Like, oh, this person's like just really susceptible to sort of being tricked.

• 1:07:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:44Jesse Michels?

  And then like, But also like really good like communicator or something?

• 1:07:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, or you want also, you might also like for, for months ahead, you know, be dropping little hints here and there around town. You know, have somebody say, I saw this weird light the other night. Or have this newspaper article, you know, that, or, or a horoscope that says, hey, you're going to see something in the sky. And like all these things that you could just plant, you know, psychologically to prime the, the moment of astonishment.

• 1:08:11Jesse Michels?

  So when you hear of a story like, you know, Fatima, you know, Portugal, like 1917, you know, these three orphans get this sort of, you know, prophecy that, uh, you know, the Virgin Mary is going to come. And then these lights in the sky appear among like a hundred plus people or whatever. Do you, does your mind immediately go to psy op? Or does it go to maybe something happened or you just don't know?

• 1:08:35Speaker 02

  I don't always think psy op.

• 1:08:37Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:08:37Speaker 02

  I think that we psy op ourselves sometimes, right? Using imagination and, and what we want to see.

• 1:08:45Speaker 02

  Now, again, I think everything can have a prosaic explanation. I don't believe that the prosaic explanation is what happened. But everything can have a prosaic explanation. So that's why, you know, when I see people like Mick West, uh, debunking things, I'm like, yeah, I can do that too.

• 1:09:00Jesse Michels?

  Totally.

• 1:09:01Speaker 02

  Everybody can do that. It's, it's as a magician, I know a ton of methods.

• 1:09:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:05Speaker 02

  More methods than Mick West knows, I can guarantee you, to trick the eye.

• 1:09:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:09Speaker 02

  And to trick the senses.

• 1:09:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:11Speaker 02

  It's, you know, I've been studying it for a very long time. So yes, it's not hard to fake anything.

• 1:09:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:17Speaker 02

  Period. But what we have to look at is, is that, is that what's happening?

• 1:09:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:22Speaker 02

  And, you know, in some cases I think it might be. And in some cases I think it might not be. I think, I think the prosaic explanation in some cases is just a flying saucer.

• 1:09:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  I think that's the, uh, you know, I did, maybe it's not an angel.

• 1:09:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:35Speaker 02

  Cause in that case, that would be the prosaic explanation. If you think it's an angel, it's actually nuts and bolts.

• 1:09:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:40Speaker 02

  It's less romantic, it's not that, you know? Um, and so depending on your paradigm, like that, you know, your, your view of prosaic changes as well, but.

• 1:09:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:49Speaker 02

  Um, you know, that specific case is really interesting because there were so many witnesses. And some witnesses were on camera saying what they saw. So it does sound like an object.

• 1:10:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:00Speaker 02

  You know, uh, but there is a absolute difference between these prophetic messages from this, uh, from this lady. And. This round whizzing rainbow colored object darting around the sky and then eventually went back to the sun or whatever, look, looking like the sun. This is two different things.

• 1:10:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:25Speaker 02

  You know, I'm not seeing the same thing was, you know, if it was a lady darting around the sky like this, then I'd be like, all right, that's, you know, kind of like the same thing here we're talking about, but it's not. You know, we're talking about some type of figure that came to these, and now we're talking about this erratic physical object in the sky, right? Are they correlated? Perhaps, you know, and like, maybe this is like a Bledsoe thing where, you know, there was some extraterrestrial stuff, then there was like this prophetic imagery and this presence of a female entity. I don't know, you know, I don't know, there's just not enough data there to, I would love to, you know, interview some of those people, but even then,

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  you know, memory is completely fallible and is the worst piece of evidence. It is the most compelling for me because I love hearing people's experience and I think, you know, looking them in the eye, you can tell if someone's being truthful, but what that truth is, I think is subjective.

• 1:11:28Speaker 02

  You know, as again, as a magician, our job is not only to fool you using visual senses or auditory senses or touch or smell or anything, but also we fool you using memory. We engineer memory and that is a big, that is a big sort of secret that most magicians, you know, they're, they're, I guess, kind of aware of it, they just don't kind of give it any thought.

• 1:11:52Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:11:52Speaker 02

  But the engineering of memory is very important to an experience. And so what a magician will do, and again, like it's, it sounds like I'm talking about Psyop, by the way, and I want to preface that like. It is almost one and the same thing, but it's if if you were on a moral scale, psyop would be over here and a magic trick would be over here. So like we're using the same techniques. That moment of astonishment you feel when seeing a magic trick, if you were to put that on a negative scale, that would be a psyop.

• 1:12:23Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:12:24Speaker 02

  Right. So we're using the same methodology, but we're using it for noble purposes of entertainment only.

• 1:12:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  For instance, as an example, uh, if I handed you something and say, uh, have a look at this. Have a look.

• 1:12:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:37Speaker 02

  It's very, very important that you have a look at that. Okay.

• 1:12:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:41Speaker 02

  All right. I'll take that back.

• 1:12:42Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:12:44Speaker 02

  Okay. So here's what we'll do. Um,

• 1:12:48Speaker 02

  I want you to imagine this ring just kind of disappearing.

• 1:12:51Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  All right.

• 1:12:55Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:12:56Speaker 02

  So the ring's gone.

• 1:12:57Jesse Michels?

  Gone.

• 1:12:59Speaker 02

  It's over here.

• 1:13:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, um, in in your mind as a spectator.

• 1:13:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:07Speaker 02

  Uh, this is very important, right? Cause I said, this is important. Hold this in your hand. It's important. You feel it in your hand. Right?

• 1:13:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  And then I kind of go, and so, and now I relax. And so this moment is is a false, uh, false transfer, we call it, right? Where it's like, it looks like I'm bringing it over here, but it's still over here.

• 1:13:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  But I've practiced actually give putting it in my hand a thousand times so that, you know, I could just get it to a point where it looks like I, and I'm, looks like I'm handling it, but I'm, but I'm not actually handling it, right? But that moment was so nothing. That was a nothing moment.

• 1:13:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:38Speaker 02

  This here, this is a nothing. You're not going to remember that.

• 1:13:40Jesse Michels?

  And I I de-emphasized it in my head because you said, look at it. This is important.

• 1:13:45Speaker 02

  That's important. And then I put no emphasis on this. And I put all the emphasis here.

• 1:13:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:50Speaker 02

  All the emphasis is over here.

• 1:13:52Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:13:52Speaker 02

  Right? None of it was on here on this moment.

• 1:13:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:55Speaker 02

  Right? And if I did this and kept staring at this hand, you would, you would be suspicious. So it's everything leads you over here and this is nothing.

• 1:14:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:03Speaker 02

  And so later, when you immediately recall what happened, this is a very basic, simple example. I could give you a better example eventually, but just right now, if you were to recall, you know, what happened immediately to someone else, you would say,

• 1:14:19Speaker 02

  I I saw the ring. I held the ring. I saw him put it in his hand. And when he opened his hand, it was gone. And that's not what happened. Right? So there's like, there's like a small lapse in a small little detail that you didn't pick up on. Is that he had it in one hand and he put it into his other hand. He didn't just take it back and it was gone. Right? But that little moment, that non moment is not going to be shelved by your brain. Your brain has other things to do. It's not going to start remembering all the useless shit.

• 1:14:50Jesse Michels?

  Well, it's sort of adaptive to like, not be hyper vigilant about those things.

• 1:14:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, cuz I told you it wasn't.

• 1:14:55Jesse Michels?

  You only have like limited space or whatever.

• 1:14:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think we have unlimited space, but you're trained to to to just not store.

• 1:15:02Jesse Michels?

  To compress.

• 1:15:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, cuz you'd go insane.

• 1:15:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:04Speaker 02

  You know, if you were to remember every mundane detail of your day.

• 1:15:06Jesse Michels?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:15:07Speaker 02

  And there's some autistic people that can, and they they're almost insane.

• 1:15:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, there's like, yeah, like Kim Peake.

• 1:15:12Speaker 02

  Kim Peake, correct.

• 1:15:13Jesse Michels?

  The weather.

• 1:15:13Speaker 02

  The Rain Man.

• 1:15:14Jesse Michels?

  July twenty seventh, fifteen nineteen or what, you know, like.

• 1:15:18Speaker 02

  Friend of mine wrote up an algorithm for that, by the way, that I learned that I committed to memory. I don't do it anymore cuz you gotta practice it.

• 1:15:23Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:15:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a, there's a, there's an actual like algorithm you can go through in your head to figure out what day you were born. As a magician, he wrote a book on that, you know.

• 1:15:32Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating.

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're always using like these interesting cases to try and figure out how to like, turn it into a magic trick, right? It's just more methods. We love methods. Psychology, sleight of hand, all this stuff, we love it, we collect it. To create the illusion, cuz the illusion is never one thing. It's a, it's a, it's a group of many things. And that's what makes a well-rounded psyop. Or illusion. Is these, you know, this well-roundedness. So in this case, you're taking these two really important things. The emphasis of me here and the emphasis of you holding a physical object together. Now it's impossible.

• 1:16:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:09Speaker 02

  You know, and now you're saying sleeves or it's this. So if I would have rolled up my sleeves, you've been like, whoa. And now you're kind of like, no answer. And so you're left, I guess it's impossible. I guess it's an anomaly. I guess it's UFOs, right? So this is, this is the same mindset that experiencers have. Versus someone who sees a magic trick. It's the exact same thing that happens now. This isn't to say that what experiencers are seeing or feeling or experiencing isn't real. And it isn't to say what they're saying happened didn't happen. I'm saying there is a lapse in memory. In instantly after an experience and an experiencer and someone seeing a magic trick is very, very similar.

• 1:16:52Speaker 02

  When you see a magic trick and you want to explain what happened and magicians know this, we do this at gigs if we're performing, we'll stick around and we'll like just eavesdrop on someone explaining to someone else what that magic trick, what I just did. And immediately they're saying something so crazy, so impossible. Like I'm literally Jesus now, like I'm doing these mirror, I'm like, I didn't do that. That's crazy, you know, but I'm a legit, I'm getting paid. I'm like, all right, whatever. But the truth is that they're embellishing for two reasons and none of which are like nefarious. None of them are malicious or anything. They're, they're not, they don't want to purposely deceive people or lie to people, but there's two reasons they do that.

• 1:17:34Speaker 02

  One is because they don't want you to think that they are dumb. They don't want you to think that you didn't consider all the variables, right? So they'll invent variables because they know deep down that that was impossible.

• 1:17:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:48Speaker 02

  But even though they didn't check my sleeves.

• 1:17:50Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:17:50Speaker 02

  They'll be like, no, his sleeves were rolled up.

• 1:17:53Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating because I want, I want you to get to number two, but the amount of UFO experiencers I've heard actually downplay the experience. So like retrace the, um, you're, there's like a public version and a private version where like the public version's like, I saw a thing. I don't know what it is. Could have been fake. And then they say it in private and they're like, it answered all these questions for me. I was conflicted beforehand and it telepathically spoke to me. Couldn't say that part on air or whatever, you know?

• 1:18:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:18Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating.

• 1:18:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. And there might be another reason for that too. There is the reason like people don't want to be judged.

• 1:18:23Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:18:23Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? So they will, like Betty and Barney Hill, for example, telling the air force one story and then telling the psychologist and other story. Same story, different details. One of them was more numbers, you know, distance, size, speed and, and the other one was more like, no, I felt this, you know? And so there is that too, to consider, but the second reason would be. You want people to feel what you felt. It is a very human thing to want. We want to self-express, but that self-expression means we want people to experience what we're trying to express to them. And there's no way of actually doing that. And, and, and there's, and even, there's even less of a way of doing that if you just convey the data.

• 1:19:07Speaker 02

  Right? So if I tell you, oh, he handed me a ring to look at. He took it back in one hand and put it back, and then put it in his other hand. And when his other hand opened, it was gone. You would say, yeah, but it was in the other hand.

• 1:19:19Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com, not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:19:50Speaker 02

  Right? So now there's like, now there's like, it's too mundane, it's not magical. And it doesn't convey what you felt when I made that ring disappear.

• 1:19:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's almost honest on the details, but more dishonest on your subjective experience of the details.

• 1:20:04Speaker 02

  And so by doing that, because you want, you don't want the other person to necessarily believe you. You want them to feel what you felt.

• 1:20:13Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:20:14Speaker 02

  And so sometimes we'll round off the edges, we'll erode the truth a little bit. Not enough for me to call you a liar, but enough to where if you were to put this on paper, it would actually matter. It would actually affect and skew the data.

• 1:20:27Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:20:28Speaker 02

  And we don't, again, we do that subconsciously.

• 1:20:30Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:20:30Speaker 02

  And I see it all the time with magic. It's, it's innocent with magic because it's like, whatever, it's just a, it's not as important as a, as an experience, but you know.

• 1:20:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, often like the Carl Jung synchronicity thing is like, it actually doesn't matter what the underlying event is that much. Like, it doesn't have to be some perfect synchronicity, the meaning you place on it matters.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:20:49Jesse Michels?

  And so if you like, place a specific meaning on this thing that leads you to this other thing, and it's kind of, you're being led to this like, lower entropy. You know, like some destination that you're supposed to arrive at. It feels like a teleology, this meaningful direction. Then like, that's all that matters.

• 1:21:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:05Jesse Michels?

  And that actually, it doesn't matter if you saw the flying saucer or didn't see the flying saucer, you know.

• 1:21:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, because what you're trying to communicate isn't fact. What you're trying to communicate is emotion. You're trying desperately to communicate your emotion by using words. And so of course, things will be lost in translation because, you know, if you could, if you could communicate something to them and put a little music on, you know what I mean? That would probably actually help you put them in, in your position a little bit more and make them feel what you felt. Because that's what we're trying to do.

• 1:21:37Speaker 02

  A lot of times when we experience things and when experiencers are saying what they felt, you hear the, the sort of like the, the fear in the, but there are, I know that there are details that they're unaware of and it's not because they're doing it on purpose, but it's human nature. And so as a magician, I know that that's something I have to also observe, but I know that I also can't be completely contingent on that being the whole experience. Like I can't, I can't, you know, discount what I'm hearing either.

• 1:22:04Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:22:04Speaker 02

  But you do have to, I think, practice a certain discernment when listening to stories like this. And it's the same when people tell me about a trick that a magician showed them, which always happens. You're like, oh, I had this magician once, he did this, this and this. I know exactly what trick they're referring to.

• 1:22:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:20Speaker 02

  When they give me those details, right? And I, so I know, I find it cool as a magician because I'm like, oh, he did a good job. Because this person clearly doesn't remember all the other things the magician did.

• 1:22:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:31Speaker 02

  Right? So that memory had been successfully engineered and impregnated in this person's psyche.

• 1:22:38Jesse Michels?

  But you sidestep the most trippy part of the question, which is that miracles, in your opinion, you've, you've told this to me offline.

• 1:22:45Speaker 02

  This is the second part.

• 1:22:46Jesse Michels?

  That miracles seem to happen more around magicians.

• 1:22:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:22:51Jesse Michels?

  Magicians who. If they're intellectually honest, would not be self-described as Jesus-like characters, would just be practitioners of things that are explainable in the materialist paradigm.

• 1:23:02Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:23:03Jesse Michels?

  But you are saying miracles occur more around these people.

• 1:23:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, and interesting enough that Russell Targ actually mentioned this too, that like in his younger days, he was a stage magician and would experience actual miracles during those moments on stage.

• 1:23:19Jesse Michels?

  Russell Targ ran the CIA Psych Expire Program, Stargate. He was one of the founders along with Hal Putoff.

• 1:23:24Speaker 02

  That's right. But magicians today ironically are the most disillusioned and disenchanted people because we're aware of methods, because we're aware of how things function. Most magicians end up being like atheists, or like Penn and Teller famously, who are good friends of the amazing Randy. We're all atheists, you know, still are, and a lot of magicians are. And they take pride in that, right? Because it's like they have the answers now. So there's no actual magic left. And I was part of that for a long time too, where I thought I knew everything and everything had a psychological explanation for it. But then sometimes, and I started noticing this, miracles would happen.

• 1:24:08Speaker 02

  Okay. If you know any magician out there, if you're listening and you have a friend who's a magician, or maybe an online magician that you know, just reach out to them and ask them to tell you about a miracle that happened. I guarantee you, they're gonna go through about a dozen in their mind before they, before they give you like an answer. And it'll be an impossible thing. You'll think that's, there's no way that that happened.

• 1:24:34Speaker 02

  So these things happen for, I think, multiple reasons. One, ironically, magicians are the closest to actual magic without realizing it. Like, we are so close to real magic because every day when we perform, A, we, we play with odds. So if you think of random number generator, right? These are odds. So on this quantum field, whatever, these, these possibilities, we play with them.

• 1:25:05Speaker 02

  And

• 1:25:07Speaker 02

  We have something, magicians have something called outs. Okay, these are, so if I go into a magic trick and I mess it up, you don't know. Because I have an out. And that out still gives you a magical effect. So you're none the wiser. You think that was the trick all along, that everything that happened, magician in trouble, was part of the act. Right? And if I, if I'm a good magician, I can make it look that way. And so it looks like I fumbled, but I recovered and you're like, oh, he just fumbled on purpose, you know, because that, that's, that's the thing we do too. So. Sometimes we like to, and I say we, I speak for myself, but I know other magicians do this too. We, we, we take chances we shouldn't be taking.

• 1:25:52Speaker 02

  And sometimes, sometimes, for whatever reason, we don't have an out for something and we go for it anyways.

• 1:26:01Speaker 02

  And it's, it's, I describe it as a stupid confidence. It's a blind confidence that makes no sense. It's not a, I hope this goes well. It's just do it. Like something comes over you.

• 1:26:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:15Speaker 02

  And you just go with it. And it's high stress environment.

• 1:26:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:19Speaker 02

  It's a lot of, there's no out, so you know that. You know, there's no out.

• 1:26:24Jesse Michels?

  Is there something you can think of now?

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:26Jesse Michels?

  What, what is that?

• 1:26:27Speaker 02

  There's plenty. One really good example, I was in Bermuda with some friends, magician friends of mine. We were at a bar. There was a group of people, we were doing, we were kind of shuffling cars with each other. You know, people are like, oh my God, you guys are magicians or whatever. So, started doing some magic to this group of people. So this girl, I take her phone and I'm going to guess her PIN code to her phone, right? Guess. So at this point, I have her phone on the bar. She, she, you know, she gave me her phone, I put it on the bar and I, I already know her passcode at this point. I won't tell you how I know that, but I've figured out a way.

• 1:27:00Jesse Michels?

  It's wild.

• 1:27:01Speaker 02

  To have that piece of personal information without her knowledge. So now as a magician, my.

• 1:27:10Speaker 02

  Presenting mind of what, what, what makes a good magician is, is using that information and theatrically revealing it somehow to create the effect, right? So I have the information, I could just go, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, punch it in and she'd go, wow. And that'd be it, right? Not a really great trick. I mean, it's great, but it's not, you know, it could be better. It's a presentation. So I have this number. I put her phone down at the bar. Now, at this point in my head, when I do these tricks, especially this one, I always look at the number and then I can cold read a little bit, right? So, you know, let's say it's, um, let's say it's like all ones, right?

• 1:27:52Speaker 02

  Um, I could, I could, for instance, say, oh, you, you seem like a person who's like, got a lot to do in a hurry and you need to get into your phone really fast. You probably text and drive as well, don't you? So I can deem all these things just from 11111. And also like, if it was 99999, I know that you're probably left-handed. Right? So there's all these like little tells that you can get once you have the information. And like, even if you're wrong, it's like, you're like, no, okay. You kind of play it off, whatever. It's cold rain, it doesn't matter, but it can add to the effect again. So, you know, you do this, once you have the information, you kind of play around with this and act sort of psychic or whatever. And she placed her phone down at the bar.

• 1:28:34Speaker 02

  Uh, it's four numbers and I, I do, I really, I do this for this specific reason. Sometimes I just ad lib. I don't know where I'm going with this and I'll just, I'll just be like, let's try this. Because I know that if it does work, it'll be a fricking miracle.

• 1:28:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:51Speaker 02

  And if it doesn't, then I'll just put the code in myself and it'll still, that'll be my out. And it's fine.

• 1:28:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yes.

• 1:28:57Speaker 02

  And so I go, you're not going to open your phone. I stupid confidence. I said, you're not going to open your phone. He is, and I point to the bartender. And I said, he's gonna open your phone. And she's like, no way, you know, and he's like, all right, cool, I'm in, you know? And so I go, all right, put in four random numbers, see if the phone opens. And he puts in four and it doesn't open. We call this an offbeat. I go, that would have been a miracle. You know what I mean? And then everybody laughs like, cause they're like, the suspense was like, oh my God, and it doesn't work. I'm like, of course it doesn't work. That'd be ludicrous to think that that would work. I'm like, maybe it has to be more of a personal number. So I said, um, put in your birthday. And he puts in his birthday and the phone opens.

• 1:29:39Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 1:29:40Speaker 02

  So now. I gotta play it cool. Right? Cause I'm the magician and I made this happen. This was the trick all along for them, right?

• 1:29:51Speaker 02

  For me, I'm screaming like a little child on the inside. Cause I'm like, holy shit. This is a real miracle and these people don't even know. Like they know, but they don't know. And so instinctively, because I knew what the numbers were, it was like, um, oh, two, one, two, or something, or something like that. It was like a birthday.

• 1:30:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:09Speaker 02

  And so doing this long enough to recognize birthdays and I could, you know, I could tell her her star sign at this point. I could like do all these different things. Cause I have that information now. But I go.

• 1:30:20Jesse Michels?

  But that's a one in 365 chance for him.

• 1:30:24Speaker 02

  No, even more, because I pointed to someone.

• 1:30:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And there, there are four, four number, you know, permutations that don't even involve.

• 1:30:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, it could have been this way too. It could have been a month's day or day month.

• 1:30:35Jesse Michels?

  Oh my God.

• 1:30:36Speaker 02

  Right? And it could have been six digit passcode on his phone.

• 1:30:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:39Speaker 02

  So here's the thing, I said, I said to her, I go, um, I gave her her birthday. And I said, you guys are born on the same day. And they're freaking out and not only are they born on the same day, they both have a four code pass, password, and they both use the same password on their phones.

• 1:30:55Jesse Michels?

  You're purely going on instinct.

• 1:30:57Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:30:58Jesse Michels?

  That's insane.

• 1:30:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, he also had that password on his phone.

• 1:31:00Jesse Michels?

  That's wild.

• 1:31:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I'm I'm here.

• 1:31:04Jesse Michels?

  But if you could figure out hers, did you not figure out his and then line them up?

• 1:31:09Speaker 02

  So, no, I didn't know it his.

• 1:31:11Jesse Michels?

  You didn't, you didn't.

• 1:31:12Speaker 02

  I didn't speak to him at all.

• 1:31:13Jesse Michels?

  It was just like you brought him in at the end.

• 1:31:15Speaker 02

  The idea was if he got it wrong.

• 1:31:17Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:31:17Speaker 02

  I would, I would see what he's punching in.

• 1:31:20Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:31:21Speaker 02

  And I would know his birthday and I would know his star sign, so I would use that later on.

• 1:31:25Jesse Michels?

  Okay, got it.

• 1:31:26Speaker 02

  And then something else.

• 1:31:27Jesse Michels?

  That's funny.

• 1:31:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm just, I'm doing some recon stuff at the same time.

• 1:31:30Jesse Michels?

  And then the third attempt you would get.

• 1:31:32Speaker 02

  And third attempt.

• 1:31:32Jesse Michels?

  You knew it.

• 1:31:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, third attempt, I would perhaps if I wanted to establish some connection and say, hey, I said you were gonna open the phone, so here's what I want you to do, maybe, uh, here, hold my hand and I'm just gonna try and channel something that's in your mind. And now I put the passcode in, so it looks like I'm channeling it through him. You know, I could do that. I don't know. I'm thinking out loud right now, but like, these are like, options that I can always play with and variables that I can manipulate to make the effect seem bigger than it actually is. And that's the magician's job of being an entertainer. I want to, I want to entertain these people. Um, so doing this where he punches his birthday in and they, and it opens and that's also the passcode to his phone and like, now there's this like weird, now there is the birthday paradox. I don't know if you're aware of this, but like in a room

• 1:32:17Speaker 02

  of 25 people, two people will share the same birthday.

• 1:32:21Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:32:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:22Jesse Michels?

  Um.

• 1:32:22Speaker 02

  It's a mathematical paradox.

• 1:32:25Jesse Michels?

  Is that a paradox or is that just a likelihood?

• 1:32:27Speaker 02

  It's a paradox. Yeah, it makes no sense that it's a likelihood.

• 1:32:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, one in, one in 25 would not.

• 1:32:35Speaker 02

  I think it's one in 25. Let me be sure before I.

• 1:32:37Jesse Michels?

  Why is that a paradox? Why is that, uh, more likely than not?

• 1:32:41Speaker 02

  That's why it's paradox.

• 1:32:43Jesse Michels?

  But how can you even study? Like, how could, how could one know that? Like, they've just randomly sampled a bunch of rooms or something a bunch of times, like?

• 1:32:51Speaker 02

  I would guess, yeah. Um, trying to bring it up right now on chat GPT to make sure I'm saying what's correct here. Birthday paradox refers to the surprising probability. Oh, here, here it is. That in a group of just 23 people, there's a 50% chance that at least two of them share the same birthday.

• 1:33:08Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 1:33:09Speaker 02

  This counterintuitive result comes from the probabl- comes from probability theory and the way that combinations work.

• 1:33:15Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm. So it is expected through some, through probability theory?

• 1:33:19Speaker 02

  Yes, through probability theory.

• 1:33:21Jesse Michels?

  But it seems beyond chance.

• 1:33:23Speaker 02

  Yes, it seems to be on chance correct. So with fifty seven people, there's a ninety nine percent match.

• 1:33:28Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:33:29Speaker 02

  Right? So there is that to factor in as well.

• 1:33:32Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:33:33Speaker 02

  But then you had to factor in that I pointed to this guy, but then I pointed to him.

• 1:33:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:36Speaker 02

  I didn't ask who shares the same birthday here.

• 1:33:38Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 1:33:39Speaker 02

  You know, so there's all these extra things in that a lot of times what will happen is people don't realize the miracles because the magician. And I can't say, I had no idea this guy would have the same birthday because now I don't look like a magician anymore.

• 1:33:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:54Speaker 02

  So I have to play it cool.

• 1:33:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:56Speaker 02

  And magicians have those stories, so many of them, every one of them. Ask a really interesting thing. Ask any magician you know.

• 1:34:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:03Speaker 02

  To tell you an actual miracle and he will tell you a miracle and the chances are that the conditions are similar. So I've surveyed probably a hundred magicians. I have all their answers. I've written them all down. It's really interesting. And I also asked them like, what, um, what are the conditions? So what time, what point of the performance did this happen?

• 1:34:25Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:34:27Speaker 02

  Were, were you, uh, did you have an out? And did you build rapport with these people? And a lot of times is the condition is, uh, later when you're feeling in the zone. Kind of like tuned in almost where nothing can go wrong.

• 1:34:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:44Speaker 02

  You feel like you're walking on water.

• 1:34:46Jesse Michels?

  You're flowing.

• 1:34:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. You're in a flow state. Uh, two is there is no out. So there can be an out, but the out's not going to be great.

• 1:34:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:55Speaker 02

  You know that, like, it's not a decent out.

• 1:34:58Jesse Michels?

  It's almost like with, um, sigh or remote viewing, like the survival instinct.

• 1:35:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:35:03Jesse Michels?

  Like you don't really have a backup. There's no plan B.

• 1:35:05Speaker 02

  You, and you have to stupidly, stupid confidence, like something has to come over you.

• 1:35:10Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:35:10Speaker 02

  And you just go with it, knowing that you feel this confidence in this like flow.

• 1:35:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:14Speaker 02

  And nothing can go wrong and everything's going to go right. You know.

• 1:35:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:17Speaker 02

  If you have a doubt, it's probably you're gonna have to jump back to some weird out. But if there's no doubt and you just do it.

• 1:35:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:23Speaker 02

  And it worked, like, that's where it works.

• 1:35:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:25Speaker 02

  And so like the, yeah, the third part is that, um, this rapport. So a lot of times, I mean, I've done this trick probably. I have a. I'll show you a trick after.

• 1:35:38Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:35:38Speaker 02

  I don't want to spoil it.

• 1:35:39Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:35:39Speaker 02

  But I'll show you a trick and.

• 1:35:41Jesse Michels?

  Can we do it on air?

• 1:35:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, we could do it on air.

• 1:35:44Jesse Michels?

  We don't have to do it now. We could do it at the end.

• 1:35:46Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:35:46Jesse Michels?

  Why don't we do that?

• 1:35:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:35:47Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:35:49Jesse Michels?

  Given all of this amazing experience that you have,

• 1:35:54Jesse Michels?

  what do you think is, you don't have to call anybody out, but there are obviously, obviously UFOs are sort of, you know, full of psyops everywhere. Do you think there is one or two in particular, as far as the emphasis, like your, you know, your example of the, the ring, where it's like, I'm not really thinking about the transfer of the ring from one hand to the other. I'm, I had been focused on it when you told me to focus on it. Is there something like that with UFOs where it's like, focus on the tip of the iceberg, when the tip of the iceberg looks nothing like the rest of the iceberg, where there's some redirect or shift in attention?

• 1:36:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, by whom are you?

• 1:36:33Jesse Michels?

  I don't know. I'm asking you, like, do you, you have an intuitive sense that there's a deliberate attempt to shift attention in any directions? Again, uh, not, not, not going after anybody in particular, but like just narrative wise. And if not, no worries, you know?

• 1:36:52Speaker 02

  No, I, I 100% think it's a possibility. The problem with this type of illusion, or psyop, or whatever you want to call it, is that there's no way of proving or disproving unless you have somebody actually say it. And even then, you don't know if that's just part of the illusion.

• 1:37:11Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:37:11Speaker 02

  So just much like a magic trick, I don't know the outcome.

• 1:37:16Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:37:16Speaker 02

  So I can't tell you if it's deliberate.

• 1:37:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, but you're more likely than the average person to see a magic trick and be like, oh, I see what he did. He like emphasized this thing and he did this other thing.

• 1:37:26Speaker 02

  Because of pattern recognition and, and, and understanding the trick.

• 1:37:31Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:37:32Speaker 02

  But that's not to say that I can't be fooled.

• 1:37:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:35Speaker 02

  You know, as a magician, I'm, I'm still capable of being fooled because I still abide by the same sense as everyone else does. And those senses can be manipulated. And if you're performing to a magician, you do certain things that the magician would expect you to do. So you counter that, you know? So if I do a trick and I'm wearing a thumb tip, you know, like a fake thumb, and I'm doing some sleight of hand, a less knowledgeable magician.

• 1:38:04Speaker 02

  Or maybe even a more knowledgeable layman might think that the thumbtip has something to do with the method, but I can use it as a red herring to throw you off the scent.

• 1:38:14Jesse Michels?

  Have you spotted anything like this in UFO world?

• 1:38:17Speaker 02

  So, yeah, yes, but I can't be sure because I don't know what the outcome is.

• 1:38:22Jesse Michels?

  Yep. Anything, you know, again, maybe speaking in, at whatever level of granularity you feel comfortable with, do you, can you talk about like how you spotted, you know, anything in particular?

• 1:38:35Speaker 02

  I mean, a lot of it is, um, I would say the, the, the, the things that come to mind to me are when people talk about their experiences. I think for me, it raises a lot of red flags in the words they choose to use and also the frequency at which the, this story has been told and how it's been molded over time.

• 1:38:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:00Speaker 02

  And people get that. People you follow, you pick that up too. They're very smart. You know, they watch all these videos and they go, oh, that, he didn't say that before.

• 1:39:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:06Speaker 02

  And that's correct. And so like those things I think have to be noted.

• 1:39:11Speaker 03

  Honey, that flu keeping you up? Yeah, I don't got this. You need NyQuil Intense Flu.

• 1:39:16Speaker 04

  Undo your flu symptoms with NyQuil Intense Flu. The nighttime sniffling, aching, aching fever, best sleep with a flu medicine. You do got this. Uses directed, keep out of reach of children.

• 1:39:25Speaker 02

  But also noted should be if you never change your story at all. Are you cognizant now that people are aware of you changing your story? Might make you look like you're not telling the truth.

• 1:39:34Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:39:35Speaker 02

  So you're purposely not changing the story. Like these are, and again, it's impossible to prove.

• 1:39:39Jesse Michels?

  Totally. You could see somebody getting a little detail wrong and being like, I don't know if I got that right on the spot. And then it's this game of telephone where you have to force fit like the next, you know, telling of that story.

• 1:39:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:50Jesse Michels?

  To like the version that you told the first time around or whatever.

• 1:39:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you're probably more likely, like, let's say, let's take the Rua Zimbabwe experience, for example. Those children all kind of drew similar things, but they were all different.

• 1:40:03Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:40:03Speaker 02

  And the stories all varied slightly. I think for me, that is more believable.

• 1:40:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:40:09Speaker 02

  Than everyone telling the exact same story, sounds like a script.

• 1:40:14Jesse Michels?

  Or you were brainwashed or something, something was orchestrated. Yeah, no, I, cause that's like any memory.

• 1:40:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you would say these kids' stories doesn't line up, so it's not true intuitively.

• 1:40:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:40:24Speaker 02

  Right?

• 1:40:24Jesse Michels?

  But I think if you know how memory actually works.

• 1:40:26Speaker 02

  Correct. You would say, oh, there is, there's a there there. There's something that happened.

• 1:40:30Jesse Michels?

  Totally.

• 1:40:31Speaker 02

  That, that they're all talking about a similar thing with their perspectives and their memories.

• 1:40:36Jesse Michels?

  I also think if to some extent, you know, seek and ye shall find, like what you're open to in terms of, you know, your aperture, like you're, you're, you're what you see in the possibility space of what you can experience in life. If that in any way dictates what you actually do experience in like, in life, allah magicians experiencing possibly more miracles.

• 1:40:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:57Jesse Michels?

  Then there's a weird way in which some people who are higher on the openness scale and they experience these things. I think it's actually somewhat blasé. It's like, it's like this normal experience. Cause like they live in this paradigm where like other beings exist or whatever. And then you are sort of in certain cases, like it's like, go on this podcast or do a documentary or whatever. And it's like, say your thing. And then they have to like, be like, okay, like this is what happened. Then the eyes were all buggy and the blah, blah, blah. And they have to like get into this character when in fact it was this like kind of hermetically sealed thing. That's just like affected them a lot like on a, but it was like deeply personal.

• 1:41:37Jesse Michels?

  And I could see there being cognitive dissonance around, around that. Where it's like, well, I have to like tell it in this way. That's de facto an argument for the thing having happened. When in fact, like they experienced it and it's actually, it felt very banal and a part of their life. Maybe, maybe banal is not the right word. Cause it was like sort of mystical and sacred, but like, of course it would happen. Because they're open to it. Like that's, that's their orientation.

• 1:42:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:06Jesse Michels?

  I don't know.

• 1:42:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it's absolute possibility. Like, I mean, that's, that's something again, I just can't, you can't disprove and you can't discount.

• 1:42:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:14Speaker 02

  And you know, knowing methodology doesn't mean that that method was inherently used. And that's what I keep coming back to is that like, everything is possible as a magician.

• 1:42:27Speaker 02

  Everything is possible.

• 1:42:28Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:42:30Speaker 02

  But because I can give you an explanation for it, that doesn't mean that that's what happened.

• 1:42:35Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:42:35Speaker 02

  And I think that's the difference between like someone like James Randi and I.

• 1:42:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:40Speaker 02

  Whereas like if, or McWest.

• 1:42:41Jesse Michels?

  Just because you can't come up with an explanation does not mean it's always the explanation.

• 1:42:46Speaker 02

  And you can come up with an explanation. That's the other thing is like, as a magician, that's my job. I have to come up with a way that this works, no matter what. Like when you watch, you know, certain magicians on television, most people aren't aware that there is a team of consultants that are like this brain trust of magicians that are gathered from the four corners of the world to come up with the most impossible magic tricks. And work with the magician on camera to teach them or help them or guide them into creating the best possible illusion for the audience at home. And this goes back in time to every magician. Like we consult each other. We talk.

• 1:43:27Speaker 02

  I go to magic conventions every year where there's thousands of magicians and we talk about secrets and we help each other with justifications and subtleties and all this stuff. So, you know, I, I, I just think that like, people just aren't aware of how much work goes into a lot of illusions.

• 1:43:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:47Speaker 02

  Like it's a stupid amount of work and a stupid amount of information that we have to like retain in order to create these illusions. But it's not impossible.

• 1:43:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:55Speaker 02

  You can do anything.

• 1:43:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:56Speaker 02

  You can, you can look at Copfield. You walk through the wall of China. You can make the Statue of Liberty disappear. You know what I mean? You, you can do that.

• 1:44:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:05Speaker 02

  But that, that doesn't necessarily mean that he actually made the Statue of Liberty disappear.

• 1:44:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:10Speaker 02

  It means that that's what it looked like. He made, he made it look exactly the same way. I can make it look like I'm psychic.

• 1:44:16Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:44:16Speaker 02

  You know, I can convince someone that I'm psychic. That doesn't make me psychic.

• 1:44:19Jesse Michels?

  Right. And it doesn't make, uh, Joseph McMonigal a magician.

• 1:44:23Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:44:24Jesse Michels?

  You know?

• 1:44:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:44:25Jesse Michels?

  And so it's this, yeah, it's this, it's so fascinating. It's so fascinating learning from you and talking to you about like some of these tricks where I'm like, if I were to see them, I'd be like, how could you ever orchestrate them? And obviously I would know on some level that they were fake, but I'm like, this is, you know.

• 1:44:39Speaker 02

  Let's try, let's try something here.

• 1:44:40Jesse Michels?

  Okay, let's do it.

• 1:44:41Speaker 02

  You have a six digit passcode or a four digit passcode?

• 1:44:43Jesse Michels?

  Six.

• 1:44:48Speaker 02

  All right, put a random six numbers in.

• 1:44:50Jesse Michels?

  Any random six.

• 1:44:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:52Jesse Michels?

  Okay, and I should remember.

• 1:44:53Speaker 02

  No, no, just, just random. Yeah, random.

• 1:44:59Speaker 02

  Didn't work.

• 1:44:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:00Speaker 02

  Yes. Again, that would have been a miracle.

• 1:45:02Jesse Michels?

  That would have been insane.

• 1:45:03Speaker 02

  You're right.

• 1:45:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:04Speaker 02

  At the end of the episode, I would have been like, you're welcome. Right? As if I'm just screaming on the inside.

• 1:45:09Jesse Michels?

  I would have cut everything else and that would have just, you know, YouTube short.

• 1:45:13Speaker 02

  Let's put in your passcode. I'll put it this way so nobody sees it. See if that works.

• 1:45:17Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:45:22Speaker 02

  Didn't work.

• 1:45:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:27Speaker 02

  Okay. Think of someone close to you.

• 1:45:31Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:45:32Speaker 02

  Month, day and year. Their birthday.

• 1:45:39Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:45:40Speaker 02

  Who are you thinking of? Can you say it?

• 1:45:42Jesse Michels?

  Uh, my dad.

• 1:45:44Speaker 02

  Who's birthday and?

• 1:45:46Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:45:46Speaker 02

  Go ahead.

• 1:45:54Jesse Michels?

  Dude. What?

• 1:45:59Jesse Michels?

  Are you serious? How the fuck did you do that?

• 1:46:04Speaker 02

  I didn't do it. You did it.

• 1:46:06Jesse Michels?

  That's insane.

• 1:46:09Jesse Michels?

  But how would you change it live? It doesn't make any sense. It was your, you can't change your fucking thing live, like.

• 1:46:17Speaker 02

  So what do you, what do you think about right now? Methods?

• 1:46:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:20Speaker 02

  What's the method you're on with?

• 1:46:21Jesse Michels?

  I mean, it's gotta be, you've gotta be able to change it live.

• 1:46:24Speaker 02

  Okay, and even so. Oh, you mean change it after I found out that you were thinking of your dad?

• 1:46:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:33Speaker 02

  But I already had my phone out.

• 1:46:36Speaker 02

  Before I asked you to think of someone.

• 1:46:38Jesse Michels?

  I know. So like, how would you do that? I don't know. Maybe that's impossible. But then. How would you, then you'd have to like suggest, you'd have to like use suggestion to like get me to pick my dad and then somehow have to know his birthday, which is, that doesn't make sense. Yeah, this is really hard. Can you just tell me now? Is that, is this one of the times where you didn't have an out and you just went for it and like, we could have cut this if like, you had failed? Okay, so you knew what you were doing.

• 1:47:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. But you see how that can look that way?

• 1:47:07Jesse Michels?

  Totally. You know, I can't figure it. I need, I need to, I'm gonna think about this a lot.

• 1:47:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:11Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:47:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, someone, someone with, uh, lower moral standards.

• 1:47:16Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:47:18Speaker 02

  Might tell you that that was actually psychic.

• 1:47:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:23Speaker 02

  That's the ethical line that magicians have to walk.

• 1:47:25Jesse Michels?

  Totally.

• 1:47:26Speaker 02

  And that some magicians, and I won't say names.

• 1:47:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:29Speaker 02

  Uh, choose to ignore.

• 1:47:30Jesse Michels?

  That's whack.

• 1:47:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is super whack.

• 1:47:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:47:33Speaker 02

  But I love it in the context of entertainment.

• 1:47:35Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:47:36Speaker 02

  And I will always let you know, like a magician is the most honest profession.

• 1:47:40Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:47:40Speaker 02

  Because they promise they're going to lie and then they do.

• 1:47:43Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:47:45Jesse Michels?

  Can you say how you did it or no?

• 1:47:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:47:47Jesse Michels?

  Ah.

• 1:47:47Speaker 02

  I did it very well.

• 1:47:50Jesse Michels?

  I'm gonna be thinking about this a lot.

• 1:47:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:52Jesse Michels?

  I'm really curious about this. It's so fascinating. Yeah. You know, it's, yeah.

• 1:47:58Speaker 02

  Think of your passcode.

• 1:48:00Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:48:03Speaker 02

  I already know a lot of information about you, so you know, they could think at home that I might, might have seen you put your passcode in or something. And that might be true.

• 1:48:12Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:48:13Speaker 02

  But, you know, you're definitely someone who is on the go a lot. You're definitely someone who, um, maybe is on their phone when they shouldn't be.

• 1:48:24Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm. Oh, for sure.

• 1:48:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:26Jesse Michels?

  All the time.

• 1:48:26Speaker 02

  Um, you gotta get into your phone pretty quick. You're pretty jet set guy.

• 1:48:30Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:48:30Speaker 02

  So we're not talking about a very complicated phone password. You're also right-handed.

• 1:48:35Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:48:35Speaker 02

  I can tell here, so my guess is that it's happening.

• 1:48:45Jesse Michels?

  Dude, what the fuck? That's, I'm changing it right after this. We release this shit.

• 1:48:52Speaker 02

  I hope it's not your PIN code to your, to your bank as well.

• 1:48:54Jesse Michels?

  That's nuts, dude. You just cold read me. You'd like ping off my like registering of what you're saying?

• 1:49:00Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:49:01Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 1:49:02Speaker 02

  I just made it look that way.

• 1:49:03Jesse Michels?

  Dude.

• 1:49:04Speaker 02

  That's magic.

• 1:49:06Jesse Michels?

  That's really crazy.

• 1:49:07Speaker 02

  Once you already have the information, you can do all the performative

• 1:49:10Jesse Michels?

  Fucking.

• 1:49:10Speaker 02

  Stuff you want. But it doesn't make it less interesting. I think.

• 1:49:15Jesse Michels?

  You'd be a good spy, man.

• 1:49:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. John Mulholland.

• 1:49:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:20Jesse Michels?

  CIA trainer.

• 1:49:22Speaker 02

  Trained CIA in deceptive practices and subterfuge in the 50s. Wrote a manual on it.

• 1:49:27Jesse Michels?

  John Dee. He's a magician in Queen Elizabeth's court.

• 1:49:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:31Jesse Michels?

  And he was, you know, a magician, but also he would sort of, he'd blur the lines and say he was communicating with angels through like Inaki and, you know, magic. Who knows? You know, it's always like.

• 1:49:40Speaker 02

  Where do you toe the line? I mean, there's

• 1:49:42Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:49:42Speaker 02

  Religious figures in history that have done magic tricks too.

• 1:49:45Jesse Michels?

  Totally. Well, you know, there's this philosopher, Rene Girard, who's this, you know, French anthropologist at Stanford and he's sort of this kind of somewhat heretical figure, but he had a cult-like following. And he would talk about kind of pagan scapegoating cycles of these kind of magical figures. These figures who would, they would sort of use magic. And so because of that, because of their like use of like the seemingly paranormal, you know, society would have ailments and they would blame it on these scapegoats because they seemed sort of like larger than life or whatever. And then sort of come down on them and, and then, uh, they would blame them for everything, kill them in these sort of scapegoating rituals. And then, uh, anoint them as gods.

• 1:50:29Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:50:29Jesse Michels?

  Uh, but often, uh, Girard would talk about them sort of developing real magical powers. Once the, the kind of, uh, collective

• 1:50:38Speaker 02

  Understood.

• 1:50:38Jesse Michels?

  closes in on them.

• 1:50:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:50:40Jesse Michels?

  And says, oh, that, you know, this is real. They start to like use real magic to like defend themselves. And it becomes this like crazy mythology, like right before they die.

• 1:50:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:50:49Jesse Michels?

  And so like, maybe in the beginning it is trickery.

• 1:50:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:51Jesse Michels?

  And that's what it's just like really, you know, um, super weird blurred lines, sort of analysis of the thing.

• 1:50:57Speaker 02

  Correct. Yeah.

• 1:50:58Jesse Michels?

  And Girard himself is like this character who's like, there's clearly something esoteric and interesting going on.

• 1:51:04Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:51:04Jesse Michels?

  But he's also, you know, this like anthropologist that seemingly explains

• 1:51:09Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:51:09Jesse Michels?

  On the like outer layer. He explains, uh, the religious through this sort of

• 1:51:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:15Jesse Michels?

  You know, anthropological, purely

• 1:51:16Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:51:16Jesse Michels?

  human, you know, lens.

• 1:51:18Speaker 02

  And that might've even happened here on like a micro scale where, you know, although the information that I had, you know, I obtained in some, in some way, or I knew what you were going to say because of something that I had preempted or whatever that is, or whatever that might be. Um, your password is also closely related to your father's birthday.

• 1:51:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I know. That's I'd thought of that, too.

• 1:51:41Jesse Michels?

  I thought of that, but that wasn't why I did it.

• 1:51:43Speaker 02

  No, I know.

• 1:51:44Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:51:44Speaker 02

  But that's, again, maybe that's the real magic.

• 1:51:48Jesse Michels?

  Right? Yeah, that there's some sort of like tie.

• 1:51:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so fascinating. Well, I also, I think of like, you know, the word Occam's razor.

• 1:51:57Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:51:58Jesse Michels?

  So it's like, this is, you know, it's like, or sorry, term, you know, where it's like, uh, the shortest path or the simplest explanation is correct. Um, and like, this is something McWest or like any of these James Randi, any of these debunkers would use.

• 1:52:12Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:52:13Jesse Michels?

  But if you actually look at the etymology of the word, it came from this guy, William of Occam, who is this Christian monk from the 13th century. And for him, it was the least number of entities responsible for a thing is probably the, the answer.

• 1:52:27Speaker 02

  Oh, right. So like, like, like, like, uh, lowest common denomination in terms of like,

• 1:52:33Jesse Michels?

  The least coordination or whatever. And, and often that meant like a miracle happens. It's God. Cause it's like the least number of entities.

• 1:52:41Speaker 02

  The one.

• 1:52:41Jesse Michels?

  The one.

• 1:52:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:42Jesse Michels?

  Um, and, and, and now I think, cause we're swimming in this sort of skeptical, epistemological soup of like the age of disenchantment. You see something, you say Occam's razor and like the connotation itself.

• 1:52:55Speaker 02

  Skepticism.

• 1:52:55Jesse Michels?

  Of Occam's razor is.

• 1:52:57Speaker 02

  Prosaic.

• 1:52:58Jesse Michels?

  That has to be some Rube Goldberg machine where we, there is some causal chain. We just don't see it yet.

• 1:53:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's that line that I want to remain open to as a magician who is aware of a thousand methods, you know? Um, I don't want to let that get in the way of learning if there, if there isn't another method.

• 1:53:17Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:53:18Speaker 02

  Um, because it's, if you look at, even if I look at my own personal experience, I can definitely see that being the case. Um, sure, there's an explanation for all these unexplainable things that have happened to me, these synchronicities and these birthday paradoxes and whatnot. There are explanations for them, but that doesn't mean that that is the reason.

• 1:53:40Jesse Michels?

  Well, let's, okay, this is a great, great segue into this question, which is, what is something, you've been doing this for over a year now. And I'm sure you've gone into a lot of things thinking, this is insane. You know, if true, like, you know, you just did this amazing piece on the La Serta files, these, you know, documents from, from Sweden.

• 1:53:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:00Jesse Michels?

  About these like reptilians or whatever. And like, that's among the more out there things that you've covered, but you've covered everything from that to like, you know, definitely real historical corroborated stuff with Danny Sheehan, you've had Lou Elizondo on. What's the thing that you went into where you're like, I know this is, or I'm pretty sure this is fake, but it's going to be interesting.

• 1:54:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:21Jesse Michels?

  And then you got kind of opt a little by it and you're like, oh my God, I think this is real. And I think there's like, actually a lot true to it.

• 1:54:28Speaker 02

  Two things specifically, the 4chan whistleblower.

• 1:54:33Speaker 02

  Um, and the EBO biologist. Those two corroborate each other, first of all, which obviously you could just chalk up to one of them read one of the files and base it on the other.

• 1:54:44Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:54:44Speaker 02

  Um, they were, the thing is that both of these were created after AI had already been, I say AI, after these GPT models have already been slightly developed. So there is, you know, a chance that they were used in the process. Now, after feeding those into AI, um, it doesn't really tell you that it's made by AI, but you know, who knows?

• 1:55:09Speaker 02

  And having experts read, especially the microbiology stuff that I, you know, I'm just not educated enough to understand a lot of that stuff. Uh, they seem to think that this person is definitely like doctorate level microbiology.

• 1:55:26Speaker 02

  But also, you know, potentially a great LARPer, a great storyteller, a great, you know, creative fictional writer at the same time.

• 1:55:35Jesse Michels?

  Should we set both up real quick for the audience?

• 1:55:37Speaker 02

  So the 4chan whistleblower, uh, right after, I think this was 20, early 2023.

• 1:55:47Speaker 02

  Could have been early 2023 or early 20, no, it was definitely early 2023. It was after, was it after or before David, David Grush? I think it might have been before. And then the microbiologist might have been after. I think I might be getting that mixed up, but anyways.

• 1:56:03Jesse Michels?

  I think the microbiologist was after.

• 1:56:05Speaker 02

  Was after.

• 1:56:06Jesse Michels?

  He knows before.

• 1:56:06Speaker 02

  Correct. Yeah. So the 4chan whistleblower purported that he'd been working on these crash retrievals for like a, for a decade or whatever it was. In the early 2000s, late 90s. And that his job was to, they were monitoring these underground or underwater, what they called mobile construction units, these massive, you know, submerged UAPs that didn't have lights, that were shaped like giant burgers, apparently. And that they were on the ocean floor. And essentially, building to spec, to specifications, to exact specifications, these UAP, and sending them out of the water

• 1:56:49Speaker 02

  to destinations unknown. A lot of that is usually where strife happens, or you know, maybe like a secret nuclear dance between a couple of countries or, or maybe even resource collection, whatever that is. And it would like, and they would always come back. These UAP would always come back into this MCU. And his job was, he said there was four units deployed for these crash retrievals. And he said, first of all, the crashes is like, they happened more often than people think. He's like, these beings are not perfect. They are learning. And so now he's like, we see, he's like, we see a lot less bodies in these crafts. They're, and he's, and he thinks

• 1:57:30Speaker 02

  partially the reason for that is because we recovered the bodies and they didn't like that. So they started developing like these AI sort of ships that would fly around instead. Anyways.

• 1:57:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. So these cra, these crashes would happen. His team, he was on the second team. He said, the first team would go in, clear out the bodies and the element 115. Right?

• 1:57:52Jesse Michels?

  Bubbles are.

• 1:57:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. They have one guy do that. And once the bodies. Route, he would go in, strip out the internal components of the ship. So like the tools and like the things that were on the walls. And again, everything was built to spec. So if there was like some type of instrument, it would be perfectly placed in a wall with a space made for it. Everything was to spec. Wow. For that, you know? Yeah. So they would strip that out and then team three and four would, he said, like all likelihood, just remove the bulk of the craft. Take it apart or whatever that is. So that was kind of his job. And then he would like speculate on what the higher ups would tell him, what he heard and how their new management came in. And they've kind of shut everybody up and you know, you can't talk about certain things and just so, this took me four hours to read through.

• 1:58:39Speaker 02

  So like I did on four different videos because it was this 4chan exchange, which we all know is a cesspool. Trying to like read through 4chan is, is literal schizophrenia. It doesn't, it's not good for your health. You're going to find a lot of garbage there. And so it doesn't help, but if you were to

• 1:59:00Speaker 02

  want to become a whistleblower without going through direct channels, because obviously, you know, a lot of people might argue that these aren't actual whistleblowers. If they're not saying everything, you know, they're just kind of being told what they're allowed to say. Well, this guy's like, I'm gonna say everything. And he's, I'm just gonna do it on here and this is gonna go nuts and it's unfiltered. And the things that he was saying were so interesting and kind of lined up with UFO lore. And at other points, really created new things within, you know, this, these, this, this landscape. And towards the end, he said something that really resonated and kind of haunts me to this day.

• 1:59:42Speaker 02

  He said, notice yourself coming back. He's like, I'm not here to convince you of anything, but notice yourself coming back to this as more information unfolds. It's exactly what I've been doing. I've been going back to it over and over and over and over. When Lou mentioned the giant underwater thing moving at, you know, 500 knots underwater. That's something this guy talked about. Yep. He said, these things would move underwater like crazy. He said, when approached, uh, they would, they would be evasive and they would just take like leave. If cornered, it didn't end well. Like you get vaporized. He's like, it would shit on anything electronic in the vicinity. He's like, we've tried to, uh, we've sent nukes after it, like on submarines. We've sent jets, we've scrambled like boats, like none of them come back.

• 2:00:27Speaker 02

  Um, if the intent is, you know, um, any, anything malicious, like you'll just get decimated.

• 2:00:37Speaker 02

  And he said, uh, you know, the questions were really interesting because like the audience, like the people asking questions, like a Q and A. And they would ask like, um, do they ever come from space? And he's like, no, rarely. He's like, we'd rarely see anything come in from orbit. Um, these things mostly left the water and like zoomed out to wherever it was going and would come right back. And that's why you also assumed that there was probably multiple of these things. Because if we're seeing them on the East Coast, this one was situated in the Bahamas. That sort of Bermuda Triangle area, which also.

• 2:01:08Jesse Michels?

  Hot spot.

• 2:01:09Speaker 02

  Right?

• 2:01:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And their weapons training facilities where they're like underwater cables that people don't know where they're going. It's called, you know, OTAC is this spot.

• 2:01:16Speaker 02

  Would make sense.

• 2:01:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:18Speaker 02

  And it would make sense that it's mobile too.

• 2:01:20Jesse Michels?

  Oh, totally.

• 2:01:20Speaker 02

  Um, and so the, these ships would often come back. And so they're thinking like this guy thought, and he was kind of putting together while he was, he's like, oh yeah. He's like, it kind of doesn't make sense that we're, he was never told about more of them. But he's like, it would make sense that there are more because if people are seeing them on the East Coast. They probably have something on the East Coast or up in the Atlantic or in the Indian Ocean.

• 2:01:37Jesse Michels?

  What about Trump's speech where he says, you know, talking about the Jersey drones? He said, these are coming out of the water. We know where the garage is. Or he didn't say they're coming out of the water. He says, this is, it's very strange. We know where the garage is. We go into the garage if we wanted. And then you have the sheriff reporting that they were coming out of the water.

• 2:01:56Speaker 02

  And what a perfect place to hide.

• 2:01:58Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:01:58Speaker 02

  On the ocean, you know, on the ocean floor.

• 2:02:01Jesse Michels?

  Also, the Office of Naval Intelligence is, uh, what create, you know, that wrote up these reports. Tim Gallaudet talks a lot about, you know, some interesting USOs, you know, identified submersible objects. There's an interesting book by a guy named John Pena Craven, where he talks about, uh, underwater, uh, tech retrievals of secret technology. Made by submarines and there are all these lost submarines, like the USS Connecticut, where it's like, we don't really know what happened. Feels like most of the details are still classified.

• 2:02:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:02:33Jesse Michels?

  Um, so, yeah, look, if.

• 2:02:37Speaker 02

  And then, and then he talks about the shape of the craft.

• 2:02:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:39Speaker 02

  That are being expulsed from this like this mothership, this mobile construction unit. And how they didn't have any features. A lot of them were like the spherical ones. He's like, are like drones. They're not manned at all. Um, and those are like more for scanning and he would go like, if you see an orange light, it's they're scanning for minerals or biologics. And if, if the orange light comes up to you, there's a likelihood that you've, you're going to be abducted or you've been abducted.

• 2:03:06Speaker 02

  You know, and they had all, he had all these like different codes and these different, like he'd get really into detail about like what they think. And, um, what he thinks they're here for.

• 2:03:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, go for it.

• 2:03:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. I was just gonna say that for me was the most interesting. It's like, okay, well, what's the why? And he said, the higher ups seem to think one of two things. He's like, they, first of all, they're pretty much all in agreement that they just don't care about us. Like they just don't care. They don't care. It's more like a zoo where they're not going to be bothered by the day to day of the animals in the zoo. But if one of them breaks loose or like, you know, starts using something to like harm the zookeepers or anything else, like they, they just have to keep it in check. But they don't care what happens in the enclosure. Like you guys do whatever you want. We don't care. So it's more like that is their attitude towards it. And they said, that could be one of two reasons.

• 2:03:58Speaker 02

  Either one, they're kind of waiting for us to, you know, hit this higher, you know, ascension, whatever. And then, and we become enlightened or two, they're kind of here until something else gets here and keeping this place around. Until whoever owns the planet comes to pick it up, which I thought was like a darker, weirder, weirder theory.

• 2:04:24Jesse Michels?

  Dude, there's just like kind of maintenance.

• 2:04:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Kind of like these pods that are placed on all the planet as like, it seems like an AI. Security system.

• 2:04:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:35Speaker 02

  And that even the biologics.

• 2:04:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:37Speaker 02

  And you look at tons of accounts of these grays. Cause that's what he said. They were these grays. Seem to be these biological drones.

• 2:04:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:46Speaker 02

  And so part of the AI system being, you know.

• 2:04:50Jesse Michels?

  I think that's why David Grush uses the term biologics. It's aptly vague.

• 2:04:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're like almost soulless.

• 2:04:58Jesse Michels?

  They're, they are, and it seems like they just kind of do execute these sort of low level tasks or whatever. And often they're around preservation. So it's like genetic sampling or gamete collection or whatever. And it makes sense. You'd send your like AI homeostasis global, you know, maintenance kit.

• 2:05:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:05:16Jesse Michels?

  Right out. You wouldn't like send your thing and.

• 2:05:18Speaker 02

  Drop it in the ocean.

• 2:05:18Jesse Michels?

  Answers all the like honestly dumb first order questions of like, why do they crash? And what, but they would just, they get seen, but they don't care.

• 2:05:26Speaker 02

  They don't care.

• 2:05:27Jesse Michels?

  They don't give a shit.

• 2:05:27Speaker 02

  They don't care.

• 2:05:28Jesse Michels?

  If you go to like the zoo and you're, you know, you're, you're, you know, looking at silverback gorillas in Arwanda or whatever. Do you care if you get seen like? You probably, probably on some level, like you're wearing camo. So like it, it would be ephemeral from their perspective.

• 2:05:41Speaker 02

  Look at, look at pandas.

• 2:05:42Jesse Michels?

  Would like occasionally see you.

• 2:05:44Speaker 02

  We dress up like pandas.

• 2:05:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, we just, yeah, right, right.

• 2:05:46Speaker 02

  To go into the panda enclosure.

• 2:05:47Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 2:05:48Speaker 02

  Panda's like, we're looking panda.

• 2:05:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:05:50Speaker 02

  Not quite a panda. It kind of looks like us and it's feeding us and it's studying us weird, you know?

• 2:05:55Jesse Michels?

  So it's like the gray thing where it's like, yeah, we like did our best, but like, whatever, you know? They just gotta like execute the task.

• 2:06:01Speaker 02

  Correct. Yeah, that seems to be what it is. Like this, like you said, like this maintenance sort of, um, yeah.

• 2:06:08Jesse Michels?

  And they're so much more powerful that it doesn't really matter. Like if one of them goes down, it's like you lost your dispensable thing. Like whatever, you know?

• 2:06:15Speaker 02

  They don't like it. I think, I think they're like, ah, that sucks, but I don't think it's really the end of the world to them. They're just kind of like doing their job again.

• 2:06:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:22Speaker 02

  And like, if you were some like intergalactic billionaire, let's say that like megalomaniac that wanted to like seed life across the universe. Let's say Elon Musk in the year two million.

• 2:06:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:33Speaker 02

  Right? Like you would have resources across the universe doing things like this. You wouldn't yourself go.

• 2:06:38Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 2:06:39Speaker 02

  See what's going on. And there's something really disturbing about that to me. And it's kind of like what disturbed me with like Fire in the Sky, the first movie I've ever seen about aliens. And I was like nine years old. Not a movie you should watch when you're nine, by the way. Do not show your kids Fire in the Sky. But you know, the, the, the most disturbing thing to me was that they wouldn't allow us to know. What was going on? They wouldn't, they wouldn't, they wouldn't share their culture with us. They weren't, we weren't allowed to know.

• 2:07:09Jesse Michels?

  So this is Travis Wall.

• 2:07:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:11Jesse Michels?

  He's in Arizona.

• 2:07:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, he gets abducted.

• 2:07:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, National Park, right?

• 2:07:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, but in the movie, they played it out so, so differently.

• 2:07:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:17Speaker 02

  But these beings that were sort of performing this procedure on him ignored his screams. Didn't care about any, any of his wellbeing and just did the tasks and sort of perhaps communicated among themselves and like, but they wouldn't allow us to see or hear or understand what they're doing.

• 2:07:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:36Speaker 02

  And that really frightened me where I was like, how dare you like not tell us what you're up to? You know, if you're going to do this to us, like there's something really that didn't sit well with me.

• 2:07:46Jesse Michels?

  Is that part of your mission now to figure out what they're up to? Cause I feel like a lot of your, the vector along which you are making progress is like, what do they want? What's the, what's the sort of culture on the other side of the kind of non-human intelligence? How do they think of us?

• 2:08:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, and it might be a multifaceted answer that I'm not ready for, but I do believe that like, I, I'm super curious about that stuff. And when I, and when I think of these, um, like these aliens right now that we're encountering, and if this is the case, that this is all, they're all just like these grays are just a part of this maintenance system that was like placed throughout the universe.

• 2:08:27Speaker 02

  You know, to think that like some of us might accidentally through some happenstance or encounter, chance or whatever, be quote unquote lucky or unlucky enough to meet the worker bee. That's it. That's as far as that goes. Not meeting the next one or the next one or the, we, some of us may by chance through accident get to meet the lowest form.

• 2:08:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:56Speaker 02

  Of their like, they don't like kind of this robotic whatever.

• 2:09:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:00Speaker 02

  And we're like, Oh my, it's God.

• 2:09:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:09:04Speaker 02

  Do you know what I mean? And it's just like the worker bee.

• 2:09:07Jesse Michels?

  Can I flip the frame a bit on your frustration? Because like, you think of all the people who are traumatized just by meeting the worker bee, that maybe it's pretty adaptive. Like, think about all of, you know, you need to get, often these people get sort of hypnotic regressions and then they go through, you know, sometimes therapy and like it's, it's analogous to experiencing any other traumatic experience. If you were mugged and beat up ruthlessly on the street, it would be similar sort of shards, compartmentalization, sort of, you know, repressed, you know, aspects of it. It's very similar. And so from a cognitive psychology perspective, and so if you are the ultimate being, maybe you're, you're like, think about the movie Arrival, right? Like the like cephalopods or whatever.

• 2:09:52Jesse Michels?

  Like, if you actually experienced that in real life, I think a high percentage of people would go insane.

• 2:09:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, but also it kind of like, I do think it supports the idea that they just don't care because if they did, it would make these things look so fricking ugly, dude.

• 2:10:08Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 2:10:09Speaker 02

  Right?

• 2:10:09Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 2:10:10Speaker 02

  They'd make them a little more appealing.

• 2:10:12Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 2:10:12Speaker 02

  Or familiar at least.

• 2:10:14Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 2:10:15Speaker 02

  Or maybe that's their attempt to making them familiar. So imagine how ugly they are.

• 2:10:19Jesse Michels?

  I'm not, I'm not convinced.

• 2:10:21Speaker 02

  They're like, oh, we made similar humans. You're like, ugh, what is this little gray dude? They're like, it's a human. You're like, that's not a human.

• 2:10:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and for all we know, like, they're just good enough to like, complete the objective of like, doing whatever they need and like,

• 2:10:35Speaker 02

  bipedal.

• 2:10:36Jesse Michels?

  They haven't like, made the upgrade or whatever.

• 2:10:39Speaker 02

  Or they don't care.

• 2:10:40Jesse Michels?

  Or they don't care.

• 2:10:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:41Jesse Michels?

  So, and then, yeah, so if that is the case, then maybe they are sort of protecting us from like, the fact that 99% of us, you know, if you look at Diana Pasulka's description of St. Francis of Assisi encountering the seraphim or whatever, like any of these things, I think it would drive most people a little nuts. Horrific.

• 2:11:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:11:01Jesse Michels?

  And, you know, he has what she would now say is probably like, you know, electromagnetic, you know, radiation or whatever. And like, but then the story that like, never ends up getting told around this is like, he dies from it a year later. And so, in some ways, maybe you need to just see the worker bee. Like, maybe the worker bee is like, you know, that drives you crazy enough.

• 2:11:21Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:11:21Jesse Michels?

  Like, I don't know very many people would want to see a gray in their bedroom like that. That's not the thing I want to see ever.

• 2:11:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, for sure. And, but I also wonder like, Like all we're seeing is their scientists, really. Or not even, we're just seeing like, like the, the, the, the arms of their scientists. Like, we're not even seeing, we're not meeting their poets.

• 2:11:40Jesse Michels?

  The lab interns.

• 2:11:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. We're not meeting their musicians.

• 2:11:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:44Speaker 02

  If they, if they have, if they know what music is. We're, we get to see their scientists. What a shitty first encounter. I don't want to send my scientists. Or scientists to be the first people to meet.

• 2:11:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:57Speaker 02

  A new civilization. Could you imagine? Could you imagine getting like? Scientists, putting them on like a UFO, sending them to another planet, being like, you guys are the ones that are going to establish first contact. And they're like socially awkward.

• 2:12:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:10Speaker 02

  A little weird. They're like nervous and like, they don't really know how to interact and how to like, use the right words in a social situation. Like, I wouldn't like that. I would probably send over someone with more charisma, with maybe a philosopher, maybe someone, you know what I mean? So why send us the scientists?

• 2:12:28Jesse Michels?

  Well, maybe.

• 2:12:29Speaker 02

  Because they don't care.

• 2:12:31Jesse Michels?

  Either they don't care, or Allah, the prime directive in Star Trek. They are waiting for us to reach some sort of consciousness litmus test. And once we've reached that threshold, we are worthy of, you know, real interaction.

• 2:12:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, that would make, that would make sense too. And I hope that that's the case. I hope that that's, this is just some type of like, safeguard that's here to make sure we don't destroy ourselves, because I think we do need that. And, uh, you know, I've always, I've always been in the.

• 2:12:56Jesse Michels?

  I do too.

• 2:12:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12:57Jesse Michels?

  I think if you actually viewed, um, us having a multipolar nuclear world through like a pure game theory probability lens. Like, I think the world may have already ended. You know, like, I, I, I don't think.

• 2:13:11Speaker 02

  Multiple times or.

• 2:13:12Jesse Michels?

  Multiple times. And then I think if not, it's probably gonna end soon. If you just think we live in the, a, a world without this other stuff.

• 2:13:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. We wouldn't make it.

• 2:13:20Jesse Michels?

  No, we wouldn't. There's no way. I mean, there's no way. Do you, I mean, do you see like? I don't see us like de-arming or de-escalating on the nuclear. So like, and, and then it's like, if arguably we're in a worse situation than the, the Cold War now. Um, cause it's, it's, it's, it's more confusing vis a vis, you know, um, Russia and China.

• 2:13:40Speaker 02

  And the UAP stuff.

• 2:13:42Jesse Michels?

  And the UAP stuff.

• 2:13:43Speaker 02

  The advanced technology and yeah.

• 2:13:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And well, also just the weaponry that like everybody's you like, you know, it was all like AI and warfare or whatever. And like, you know, like, that's like a cold, hard algorithm that then has to make the decision. And then there has to be some sort of human in the loop. But like, the human is becoming parasitized and like demoted in that loop as far as the decision making goes. And they have to be from a game theory lens. If like the adversary is using the AI thing, then you have to use the AI thing. And so, it doesn't feel like things are getting like more likely that we ascend through the, the great filter and make it on the other side. If the great filter though, is more consciousness based, that I think gives us a little more hope from like a materialist lens.

• 2:14:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't think we should be exploring other planets right now.

• 2:14:27Jesse Michels?

  She's totally.

• 2:14:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, we should be focusing on.

• 2:14:30Jesse Michels?

  This. Yeah. The fact that we have a Goldilocks planet.

• 2:14:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:14:34Jesse Michels?

  That's extremely, you know, you have the anthropic principle in physics. Like we are, we're so lucky. Like if Planck's constant were like slightly deviated. Like we, we know, we wouldn't have a habitable earth. If, if hydrogen and oxygen didn't form these perfect crystal lattice structures, uh, the more solid form of, of water, which is ice would be more dense and it'd sink below and the earth would flood over. Like there are a million examples like that.

• 2:14:56Speaker 02

  And what a cry for help to want to live on such a shitty planet like Mars.

• 2:15:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:15:03Speaker 02

  And where it's just gross.

• 2:15:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:05Speaker 02

  There's nothing good there.

• 2:15:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:06Speaker 02

  You know, I don't, I don't see the, I don't see the allure.

• 2:15:09Jesse Michels?

  If we can't.

• 2:15:09Speaker 02

  When we have fjords and we have like, you know, vast valleys of like beautiful life and we're, and we'd rather see ourselves living in some weird, you know, artificial hut. That's a cry for help.

• 2:15:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. On a red, barren, deoxygenated planet.

• 2:15:27Speaker 02

  Radiated.

• 2:15:28Jesse Michels?

  And we have like, we have like interlocking in Switzerland and like, and like Shangri, you have like, you know, like Tibet here.

• 2:15:37Speaker 02

  It's a cry for help.

• 2:15:38Jesse Michels?

  But we got, we got, we have to go to Mars because we're going to save humanity. If we go to, if we just go to Mars, we're good.

• 2:15:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:43Jesse Michels?

  It's a, you know, totally. It feels like a. You know, like a cynical, uh, almost like a distraction where it's like, if you've, if you focus all your efforts towards something that's maybe Sisyphean, but directs all of your attention and energy source, something that's, it's nominally charismatic.

• 2:16:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay.

• 2:16:01Jesse Michels?

  Then you forget about, you know, how, how bad things are here or something. I don't know. I don't know what it is, but if you actually think about it, it's not, it's completely illogical.

• 2:16:10Speaker 02

  And I, yeah, that's it. And that's why I like, I struggle a lot when I hear about these cases where, uh, these abductees get, like there, there's a pattern with abductees. Uh, you get taken out of your room or out of your bed or whatever it is. You get brought in, um, they perform some type of examination or some type of, um, operation, whatever it is. Then they give you a tour of the ship. Then they send you imagery of the world completely being annihilated, these terrible, terrible images. And make you feel bad for what we're doing to the world. And then they put you back home.

• 2:16:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:48Speaker 02

  That is the protocol, it seems like for, for what they're doing. That's like, okay, we're gonna do this, then we leave them with this. And then that's like the protocol that they've been, that's the directive that they're following.

• 2:16:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:00Speaker 02

  To like, cause maybe they're not in control. They're just like, they're doing the thing. They're like, okay, now we gotta get in the images. And now we gotta, and give them the tour, okay, tour number and put them back to their bed. Everything should be good. And they found that like, there's been no resistance there. And like, okay, this is working. And they haven't really tweaked it. And so when that happens, I'm always like, I'm always so skeptical because like, you know, you go to, you go to Zimbabwe and, and you hit these kids, these children with these images of like, technology is bad and we're blowing up the earth and like, we're killing, we're, and we're like, it's just the worst imagery ever. And this is all your fault, humans. And like, we're, we're crying and we're so introspective and like, we gotta change. And like, nothing happens.

• 2:17:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:38Speaker 02

  Nothing fricking changes, ever, ever. Like, if you're such an intelligent being, then you probably have the foresight to understand that we're not gonna do shit. Like, we're not gonna do anything to change this world on our own that we wouldn't have already done.

• 2:17:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:53Speaker 02

  If anything, it's, it, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's not getting that much better. We're, you know, we're, we're, we're, we're killing more trees and we're polluting the oceans more than ever. And it's like, it's not. That isn't helping.

• 2:18:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:06Speaker 02

  You have to know that.

• 2:18:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:07Speaker 02

  Being a smart, superior, you know, entity, you have to know that telling us that we're being bad.

• 2:18:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:16Speaker 02

  Doesn't help us with a solution.

• 2:18:18Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 2:18:18Speaker 02

  There needs to be intervention.

• 2:18:19Jesse Michels?

  There's a great book called The Inner Game of Tennis. And it's all about like, if you like criticize a person over and over again for like making mistakes.

• 2:18:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:18:27Jesse Michels?

  It doesn't help them get better at tennis at all.

• 2:18:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:30Jesse Michels?

  You like, just let them, let them go. And like, it's almost like this, like how to coach without coaching at all.

• 2:18:35Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:18:36Jesse Michels?

  And I'm skeptical as well. I think it's so, yeah, it's so easy. I mean, a lot of these things sort of echo this like Greta Van Thunberg, you know?

• 2:18:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:45Jesse Michels?

  Sort of like, these, the solutions that are overly technocratic, where it's a, it's, it is a hypnotic trick.

• 2:18:52Speaker 02

  And, and, and look at the track record.

• 2:18:54Jesse Michels?

  It's always failed.

• 2:18:55Speaker 02

  From those people, the, the, all you're doing is, and you're just gonna end up creating people who are gonna write a book and speak at UFO conventions.

• 2:19:01Jesse Michels?

  Totally.

• 2:19:02Speaker 02

  You're not creating like the next president or, or creating like a world leader that's going to change anything. It's never that.

• 2:19:08Jesse Michels?

  It's never that.

• 2:19:08Speaker 02

  It's always utter trauma.

• 2:19:12Jesse Michels?

  All, all, all, all utopian movements end in a complete failure. And like, there's a, there's a, there's a good book called Passport to Utopia, not to be confused with Passport to Megonia. And it's all of these like utopian movements. And you think, and think about like the 20th century is the age of ideology. Like, this was like Hitler and Stalin and Trotskyism, all these things where it's like, it's too simple. Marxism, it's all too simple. It's like, if you just do these sort of technocratic things.

• 2:19:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:44Jesse Michels?

  You know, then, then we're good, we'll figure it out.

• 2:19:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:47Jesse Michels?

  You know, it's all good. And empirically, all of those always fail. And in fact, if you look at their underlying roots, they're sort of maybe, they're cult-like and hyper-Christian in a way, like they're actually like the more, uh, uh, sort of religious than, than you realize.

• 2:20:06Speaker 02

  And, and so then you have to ask yourself, why?

• 2:20:08Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:20:09Speaker 02

  So why are we being shown these things?

• 2:20:12Jesse Michels?

  I think, yeah, I think you have to be skeptical.

• 2:20:13Speaker 02

  So then, yeah.

• 2:20:14Jesse Michels?

  Probably to manage us or something.

• 2:20:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, or, or to justify what they're doing to us.

• 2:20:18Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:20:19Speaker 02

  You know, if you're being, um,

• 2:20:23Speaker 02

  Operated on or being, you know, things being shoved up your nostril and whatnot, like all these horrific things. Trauma. And then you're like internally frustrated, afraid, fearful, resentful, spiteful to these beings. And then they, you know, they implant these emotions in your mind and say, no, you're the bad guy.

• 2:20:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:47Speaker 02

  Look at what, look at what you're doing. And you start crying because you're like, oh, what are we doing? And they go, we're helping you.

• 2:20:52Jesse Michels?

  It's like, it's this nagging process. It's probably like Charles Manson did to the family.

• 2:20:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're helping, we're here to help you. And we're like, and now we're thankful to them for doing these procedures. And, and I'm not saying that that is the thing. I'm saying that this is what it looks like to me after just reading a lot of these cases where, you know, I, I use this example a lot, but yeah, if like, you know, my coffee cup started talking to me, grew a mouth right now and two eyes and was like, hey, the earth is flat. Actually, you know, I would be inclined to believe it.

• 2:21:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:24Speaker 02

  And I know that sounds absurd. At first I checked myself into a hospital, but then once, you know, I confirmed that this is reality. It, it's basically didn't, it's basically telling me that on some level, at least partially, that my reality is a lie.

• 2:21:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:38Speaker 02

  And it has shown me that.

• 2:21:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:40Speaker 02

  So it has given me more truth.

• 2:21:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:42Speaker 02

  And so I would be inclined to believe it. And so if I was some type of light coming down from the sky, and I spoke to you in your mind.

• 2:21:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:55Speaker 02

  And told you that I was God.

• 2:21:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:58Speaker 02

  There is no reason you would believe it, not believe it.

• 2:22:01Jesse Michels?

  Not believe it.

• 2:22:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. In fact, if you spoke against that light, they would kill you.

• 2:22:07Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:22:08Speaker 02

  That's the reality of the situation is that anyone who gets a message from these NHI has no reason to doubt the message.

• 2:22:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:16Speaker 02

  Because it's showing you something true.

• 2:22:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:19Speaker 02

  And so therefore you automatically just believe it.

• 2:22:23Jesse Michels?

  The rest of it has to be true.

• 2:22:24Speaker 02

  Of course. Yeah. And, and there's no reason, and I'm saying that if I had an interaction where they spoke into my head and told me some information.

• 2:22:33Speaker 02

  I would be, I would be convinced that is the truth too. I'm not saying I'm immune to that.

• 2:22:37Jesse Michels?

  Well, yeah. Well, you have a great example of Christopher Columbus.

• 2:22:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:22:41Jesse Michels?

  You want to tell that story?

• 2:22:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was, um, uh, this was, I think in the Bahamas, um, but he showed up with his boat and there was like the, was it the Bahamas? It was an island.

• 2:22:50Jesse Michels?

  West Indies or something.

• 2:22:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:22:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, one of those.

• 2:22:52Speaker 02

  And there was, there was the native people that were there and his whole crew had been starving and they were thirsty. And they wanted, you know, they were dying of like all, all these terrible things. And so they had asked the locals to provide them with food and water and the locals refused. And so they were trying to come up with a plan on how to, how to get them to like feed, you know, the crew. And so, you know, Chris Columbus had said, if you do not do what we ask, we will block out your sun in three days' time. You have three days. And so three days later, sure enough, there was a solar eclipse.

• 2:23:31Speaker 02

  And so him knowing that there was a solar eclipse happening, you know, use that against the people as like, kind of like a psy op or whatever, to, you know, feed his, feed his crew. And they did that. And so again,

• 2:23:43Jesse Michels?

  So wild.

• 2:23:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, Arthur C. Clarke, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

• 2:23:50Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:23:50Speaker 02

  You know, and so when you can present that, we have no reason not to believe that.

• 2:23:56Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:23:56Speaker 02

  You know, so anybody who is above our level of intelligence, sufficiently enough can claim to be God.

• 2:24:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:05Speaker 02

  And probably does.

• 2:24:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. It's so fascinating. So given that, and given, I think that very healthy orientation towards this entire subject, what, you know, from your year and a half of doing the show, and I'm sure much, you know, longer than that of being sort of interested in this topic. How do you orient towards it? Like, what's, what's the problem? Cause there's something around a lot of these, you know, experiencers where sometimes it feels like they're outsourcing their agency. Or it's like, you know, often it's just like, everything they told me is, is, is true.

• 2:24:40Jesse Michels?

  Other times they feel sort of antagonized and like they're, they just want to be totally rid of it. And like, they don't take any of it, you know, like, like, like worthy of, you know, consideration. They, they literally just want to like run away like departmentalize or whatever. Is there some like healthy middle ground or like, how, how should one orient? You know, themselves towards the subject?

• 2:25:00Speaker 02

  Uh, it's difficult to say because I'm not like, I'm not someone who has been abducted, right? So I can't tell those people how to feel, obviously. They're, you know, they're going through it. So, uh, and I've not, you know, been a part of military projects where I, I know of legacy stuff, you know? So I, the perspective that I have comes uniquely from my own, you know, personal experience, but I tend to focus on story. I love story. I think story is the most beautiful thing that we can share. I think, you know, there's a reason we had bards back in the day because they had an important role. They had, they had to tell you story and I am fascinated by story.

• 2:25:42Speaker 02

  So when I look at these things, I try to look at it through a lens of story. And by story, I mean like there's an arc and there's a reason and there's a purpose and there's, there's beauty. And there's an artistic sort of natural flow, you know, in this. And so I, I tend to look at it as story and all these new components and these new cases and these new pieces of information are padding this universe building. Just much like you would, uh, if you were building Star Wars or if you were, you know, building, uh, Interstellar. You need these universe building, building blocks to keep you enclosed in this fictional bubble.

• 2:26:23Speaker 02

  And so I'm not saying it's fiction, but I treat it as such until it's proven otherwise. And I think for me that sustains my. Creativity, my creative thinking and my interest into the topic. If I were to look at this practically, constantly in a skeptical manner. I think I would burn myself out and I probably would get a little cynical. And so I try.

• 2:26:50Jesse Michels?

  That's what I'm feeling. Totally burned out and cynical on all this stuff.

• 2:26:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. So looking at it from like this beautiful storytelling lens. With these storytelling elements and then integrating that into the content that I make and creating these whimsical worlds to take people out for a spin. I think there's no harm in that. And I also think that, you know, the medium is the message to some extent where like, if I can help.

• 2:27:19Speaker 02

  You know, if I can help tell a story, like, like if you can't be better than everyone, be different. Type deal. So, you know, for me, I, I, I look at my role in all of this. As someone who perhaps my lack of knowledge and experience can be made up for with my ability to tell story.

• 2:27:38Jesse Michels?

  And I think you have a lot of knowledge too, but.

• 2:27:40Speaker 02

  Thank you for saying that, but definitely a lot less than, you know, than yourself or like Herb or like any of the, no, absolutely. But I admire that. But I think what I make up for is, is this other, this other sort of dimensionality. And in this space, you know, I often talk about entertainment. As being like a good thing for ufology and some people believe the opposite. They say it ruins it.

• 2:28:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, but it's tough, man, because the second you say it ruins it. You can't really decouple story from all of this.

• 2:28:15Speaker 02

  Right, exactly. So what's real?

• 2:28:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, what is, yeah, yeah. It's, it's just, it's extremely hard. It goes back to the thing of like. How do you know an electron exists? It's because it's like textbooks and it's been measured by people. By the way, for the record, I do believe electrons exist, but I'm taking it on faith. And then you have all these other stories and it's like, it's extremely, it comes down to your kind of political biases and your instincts and like, you know, you could, you can lie and say that it's not, but it's like. The basis of belief, Jake Barber said this in my interview with him is like. People don't really understand the basis of their beliefs.

• 2:28:49Speaker 02

  I think that's, that's definitely true.

• 2:28:54Speaker 02

  I also think that, you know, relating it back to magic, um, there is something about the willing suspension of disbelief. Uh, that enhances your experience and maybe your human experience here.

• 2:29:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:10Speaker 02

  So I think if you're able to have enough cognitive, you know.

• 2:29:16Jesse Michels?

  Pliability.

• 2:29:17Speaker 02

  Exactly. To be able to successfully, temporarily at least, suspend your disbelief to a few of these stories, I think it will enhance your experience on earth. It may not make, it may not give you the definitive answers.

• 2:29:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:34Speaker 02

  But it will make the pursuit of those answers more joyful and meaningful.

• 2:29:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:39Speaker 02

  And I think that that's really important in this, in this subject, because if you're constantly just cynical or non-believing, or, or even the other way, just too believing and like a critical of other people saying what you're saying isn't real, I think you're missing out on like a whole world of discovery and beauty and whimsy that I think is really important. And I think that when you put yourself in that mind state, you tend to absorb more information. So, you know, I could, I could, you know, spit facts at you all day, but by creating an environment that's more conducive to you wanting to be immersed there.

• 2:30:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:16Speaker 02

  You're going to absorb that information a lot more. You know, we learn more things when we enjoy doing them.

• 2:30:20Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely.

• 2:30:21Speaker 02

  And, and rather than going to school for something, just getting out there and doing it because you're passionate about it, you're going to learn more there.

• 2:30:27Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely.

• 2:30:27Speaker 02

  You know, so it's kind of the same. I treat it kind of in the same way. Let's have fun doing this.

• 2:30:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:32Speaker 02

  Um, that doesn't mean, that doesn't mean, you know, we have to believe everything.

• 2:30:36Jesse Michels?

  The energy with which the content is transmitted is, uh, you can't decouple that from the content itself. And people can say you could decouple it, but I do think that's how ideas take hold. It's not necessarily only the content. Like, we like to think that we are perfect measurement sensors of truth, uh, in some abstract sense. And we take away like the energy surrounding it or the, the medium or, you know, whatever. And it goes into some like code compiler and that's just so not how we, you know, process anything.

• 2:31:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. Watch a movie without a soundtrack and it won't be the same movie.

• 2:31:09Jesse Michels?

  No, not at all.

• 2:31:10Speaker 02

  Same script.

• 2:31:10Jesse Michels?

  No, it'll seem so much lamer and.

• 2:31:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, it'll seem weird and empty.

• 2:31:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:14Speaker 02

  And you won't retain most of it. You'll probably fall asleep.

• 2:31:16Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 2:31:16Speaker 02

  The soundtrack all of a sudden now immerses you and it gives you a reason to care and puts you there. It makes you feel like you're a part of it. And because of that, you're retaining the information as if you're the one actually experiencing it.

• 2:31:27Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:31:28Speaker 02

  Rather than hearing someone else's experience, you know, and that's a really important thing when, you know, uh, when learning something. I think we learn things for the purpose of survival.

• 2:31:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:37Speaker 02

  And it's the reason why we're interested in a lot of drama. You know, you think about drama. Why do people like drama? Why do people like drama? Cause people like putting themselves in other people's positions so they might be able to, uh, through this connection, learn a lesson that they might not otherwise learn, right? So they're, they're feeling it out. So what would I have done? You know, and now they don't have to actually do that terrible thing. It's why we watch these murder docs and these like serial killers. Why do we, why are we obsessed? Because we like to put ourselves in those shoes. This is sick as that sounds. We like to like, just imagine it. It's like being a roller coaster, being close to death without dying and, and learning from that.

• 2:32:10Jesse Michels?

  I think it's why these characters like, you know, Elon or Trump, or even like Kanye right now is like saying everything you're not allowed. Like I'm, you know, I'm Jewish, so nominally I'm supposed to be like, this guy sucks or whatever, even though, you know, love is early music. But like, there's something weirdly like, it's hard to look away while he's like self imploding online.

• 2:32:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32:32Jesse Michels?

  Um, and it's something like, you know, we all walk around as, you know, it's like the Rousseau's noble savage or whatever, where it's like, we have to repress constantly. Everybody represses, you know, Freud would say this, every, everybody repress. And maybe Freud's specific idiosyncratic repressions were based on his own weird autobiography, but like, you know, often it's, it, it, it's, we just do.

• 2:32:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32:54Jesse Michels?

  And then you see somebody and they're so not, they're just so like unconstrained. They're just so weird. They're like these Ubermancy, you know, figures or whatever. And, you know, again.

• 2:33:03Speaker 02

  Funny term.

• 2:33:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, especially in this context with Kanye, not endorsing anything he's saying. But there's some weird voyeuristic, like, I can't not see that.

• 2:33:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:33:15Jesse Michels?

  Like, and this bizarre desire to, like, you know, live vicariously through that for a lot of people, I think. I would assume because of the amount of traction it gets online to this day.

• 2:33:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, you want to, you want to learn a lesson without having to learn the lesson.

• 2:33:28Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:33:28Speaker 02

  Because that helps you survive, it helps you grow as a person.

• 2:33:33Jesse Michels?

  That's interesting.

• 2:33:33Speaker 02

  And so, you know, living through other people's experiences adds to our own data of, you know, what being here is. Collectively, we're kind of helping each other do that now with story.

• 2:33:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:43Speaker 02

  You know, and so if you can create really immersive stories, then you can help be that conduit for someone else to learn a lesson or to grow a little bit more in their own knowledge versus just having them read text or, you know, saying something monotonously. You can, you can create an environment where they're more conducive to learn something new.

• 2:34:01Jesse Michels?

  I love that, man. And it's so beautiful. I mean, it really does speak to like, why do certain ideas die on the vine? And what, why do others take hold? We think of, you know, ideas that make it into the modern zeitgeist, whether it's in science, politics, you know, curriculum in school as being this like, oh, this, this reached some like truthiness threshold. So like, it's now in the textbook, it's now in the canon or whatever. And in fact, it's like history is told by the winners and like the winners like know how to tell their story extremely charismatically.

• 2:34:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:33Jesse Michels?

  And so, uh, yeah, it's a, it's just a fascinating kind of new frame.

• 2:34:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:38Jesse Michels?

  Which, and I think your, uh, show itself embodies this like just beautiful. I mean, you're like, you know, your, your, your set is like amazing, you know, you have like this skiff that looks like this sort of mid-century, you know, really cool kind of space age thing with like all these knobs and toggles. You're like, wide shot is literally this overhead security camera. And then you're wearing like the suspenders. You're like this like detective or whatever. And it's this beautiful. It's like two things. It like you're like in it and you're like, wow, this is real. But then also you can kind of cover like really crazy stuff. Because you kind of have an out where you're like, yeah, I'm just wearing suspenders and I'm sitting in this fake skiff. You know, whatever. And so it's both. Uh, it's both kind of, you know, plausible deniability for you.

• 2:35:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:23Jesse Michels?

  And it's also like the most immersive, beautiful experience for the viewer. And, uh, yeah, I'm just, I see that like, you know, going, going to the moon.

• 2:35:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. Thank you. And thank you for taking notice. But yeah. Just taking you out for a spin. That's the idea.

• 2:35:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, absolutely. Well, Chris, this is an honor, man. Um, everybody go subscribe to Area 52. Uh, become a member on YouTube. Uh, go to the Discord. You have really cool, thoughtful, uh, you have the interns on Discord.

• 2:35:55Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:35:56Jesse Michels?

  And, uh, you guys do kind of reading groups together. Sometimes you have movie nights.

• 2:36:00Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:36:00Jesse Michels?

  So it's a, a, a stepwise better experience in my opinion, like than other just random kind of, uh, communities that don't really get thought about. You know, it's just kind of like a way to monetize. Not the case with you. Um, you have a Patreon as well, right?

• 2:36:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's all, it's all linked together. So Patreon and membership are the same thing. Kind of they allow you, uh, all the top secret access to the secret section of the Discord and all that stuff and all the cool stuff. But, you know, essentially you could just join, uh, the Discord for free if you just want to find like, like a community. Uh, we keep a positive vibe there and an open mind. Um, you know, we, we try to really keep it friendly. Uh, without having, you know, too many politics involved. Like we're just there to share story and to like, what if?

• 2:36:40Jesse Michels?

  Awesome, man. Well, maybe the whole world is a stage. We're just in it. Uh, Chris, this is, this is an honor, man. It's so fun. And, uh, uh, yeah, I was, I'm still trying to figure out how you, I think, I think maybe at least with my code.

• 2:36:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:54Jesse Michels?

  That you, uh,

• 2:36:55Speaker 02

  Shoulder surfed you or something?

• 2:36:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, well, you know, I think you fit, you've felt the impacts of what, cause I, I clicked, I clicked that in, right? Maybe something around that. I don't know. You guys go figure it out. Awesome, man. Hey, dude. Appreciate it. Before we go, just a reminder that this episode was sponsored by

• 2:37:12Speaker 02

  Surfshark. Don't miss out on the extra four months.

• 2:37:16Jesse Michels?

  At surfshark.com slash American Alchemy. The link is right below in the description.

• 2:37:24Speaker 02

  Stay curious, stay safe, and I'll see you next time on American Alchemy.

• 2:37:28Jesse Michels?

  Dude, this isn't your show. They're gonna see me, not you.

• 2:37:31Speaker 02

  Stay tuned, stay curious, stay safe, and you'll see him next time on American Alchemy.

• 2:37:36Jesse Michels?

  Thanks.