Big Mountain Skier Lynsey Dyer On Sport As Art

Imagine being the very best in your sport. Undefeated, the future is bright indeed. But deep down the zero sum game of competition just doesn't sit right. Because for you, sport isn't about winners and losers. It's about play. It's about freedom. It's about love. But mostly it's about artistic self-expression. This is the story of Lynsey Dyer. One of the best big mountain skiers on the planet, Lynsey is an extraordinary and most unexpected athletic talent who walked away from competition at the peak of her potential to courageously blaze her own path. A unique path that has helped refine what it means to pursue sport professionally. A path based not on podiums but on adventure. Seeking joy. Empowering others. And expressing one's unique voice. Over the course of a decade long career, Lynsey has won every big mountain competition that she entered. She has also won several freesking competitions and awards including the 2004 International Free Skiers Association North American tour champion. In 2010, Powder Magazine awarded her Best Female Performance for her role in Magic Moments. She has been awarded Female Skier of the year by Powder Magazine, was the first female to be on the cover of Freeskier Magazine and has starred in too many ski films to mention, including projects from legendary filmmaker Warren Miller. Lynsey has starred in or hosted television shows for NBC, ESPN, Bravo, The Ski Channel, Mountainfilm and Outside Television, has appeared on Good Morning America and even produced, directed and starred in her own film, the widely acclaimed Pretty Faces — an all female ski film featuring the best athletes from around the world that beautifully celebrates female empowerment and the transformative power of play. When she isn't crushing powder, Lynsey can be found running her non-profit SheJumps.org, which encourages girls and women to participate in the outdoors through mentorship, and her movie production and apparel company Unicorn Picnic. An unconventional badass, Lynsey is the personification of strength in femininity. A role model for young women across the world with an ethos I'd like my own daughters to emulate. This is a conversation about Lynsey's remarkable life. It's about female impact on a male dominated subculture. It's about courage in defying external expectations to follow your own unique path. It's about the joy and freedom that come from blazing a life of adventure. Simply put, it's a conversation about what it means to pursue sport as art. It was a pleasure connecting with Lynsey. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  That's my hope with the videos, is that it can inspire people to get outside and have that experience, and that it's not all scary. Like, it's welcoming and it's magical. That's why I bring in the unicorn, especially for girls, because it takes this thing that people have primarily seen as extreme, and, "Oh, I could never do that," to, it's fun, and it's playful, and it's magical. But what's also cool is it reminds older people of their childhood, too, when anything was possible, and there was magic, and you could, you believed in your dreams. So, I'm all for it. Young, actual children, and those who used to be children, I want to bring them back.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  And I think mountains do that, and when you play, when you remember that state.

• 1:51Rich Roll?

  That's Lindsay Dyer, this week, on the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:05Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody, how you guys doing? What's happening? My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome or welcome back to my podcast, the show where each week I go deep, I get intimate, I go long form with some of the most compelling paradigm shifters, thought leaders, high performers, spanning a wide spectrum of perspectives across everything from health and wellness to fitness, entrepreneurship, art, athletics, and more. And this week's guest is no exception to that role, Lindsay Dyer. Lindsay is a professional skier, but she's a most unexpected one, really an extraordinary athlete who has blazed her own unique path in her sport skiing. And I think

• 2:49Rich Roll?

  in many ways, has really helped to redefine what it means to pursue sports professionally in this era in 2017. Lindsay is one of the best big mountain skiers in the world. Over the course of a decade-long career, she has won every single big mountain competition that she entered. She has also won several free skiing competitions and awards, including the 2004 International Free Skiers Association North America Tour Champion. In 2010, Powder Magazine awarded her best female performance for her role in Magic Moments. She has been awarded Female Skier of the Year by Powder Magazine. She was the first female to be on

• 3:29Rich Roll?

  the cover of Free Skier Magazine and has starred in many, many films. She also, very interestingly, produced, directed, and starred in her own film. It's called Pretty Faces. It was widely acclaimed, and it's really this beautiful cinematic tribute to female empowerment through sport. She has also starred in or hosted many television shows for NBC, ESPN, Bravo, the Ski Channel, Mountain Film, and Outside Television, and has been featured in too many media outlets to mention, including Good Morning America. Basically, Lindsay is a total badass. And all of those accomplishments are super cool, but it's not the real reason

• 4:11Rich Roll?

  why I wanted to talk to her. And I'll explain the real reason in a moment, but first.

• 4:25Rich Roll?

  All right, Lindsay Dyer. So, one of the really interesting things about Lindsay is, as I mentioned at the outset, how she carved out her own niche as a professional. Because this is somebody, an athlete, who at the top of her game, when she was winning all these big mountain competitions, she decided to just up and walk away. Not from skiing, but from competition. Now, conventional wisdom would dictate that that would end her career as a professional skier, but Lindsay is anything but conventional, and she was able to find her own unique way to redefine what it means to be pro, carving out this really interesting, dynamic career

• 5:08Rich Roll?

  outside of competition, which I guess, in certain respects, is akin to what Laird Hamilton has done in surfing. In any event, Lindsay first came onto my radar several years ago, I'm not sure exactly when, but Julie and I both became obsessed with her Instagram posts. Not just the beautiful photographs of mountains and travel and these epic ski images, but really like the vibe. It was a vibe that is, was, is, unapologetically female, but female on her own terms, by her own definition. Strong, confident, this attitude of taking no prisoners and always kicking ass. Somebody that you can feel great looking up to as a female role model and ethos I'd like

• 5:52Rich Roll?

  my daughters to emulate, or really a role model for young women across the world. And after following her adventures for so long, Julie and I decided that we had to meet her. So, we invited her out to our house to visit. She agreed, she came out, we spent an awesome several days together, doing all sorts of cool stuff. But this podcast is just one of the gifts of that experience, and I'm excited to share it with you guys today. So, this is a conversation about what it's like being an accomplished woman in a mostly male-dominated world of sports. It's about the power of following your own unique voice and not caving to social expectations or professional expectations or Familial expectations to fit into a certain box.

• 6:35Rich Roll?

  It's about what comes along with being different and how to remain authentic to yourself, a theme of this show, of course, and the beauty of adventure and exploring. And finally, what it means to her to be this role model. So with that said, I give you this fantastic conversation with Lindsay Dyer.

• 7:01Rich Roll?

  Lindsay Dyer, how are you?

• 7:04Speaker 01

  I'm awesome.

• 7:06Rich Roll?

  I'm so excited to have you in the Container Studio to do the podcast. Thanks for coming down and visiting us.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's beautiful here. Thank you for having me.

• 7:16Rich Roll?

  How was the beach this morning?

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Stunning.

• 7:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, what'd you guys do?

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Went surfing, stand up, and it's stunning.

• 7:26Rich Roll?

  You were down there with June, right? June and Julie and Travis?

• 7:29Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:29Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  June's a mermaid.

• 7:31Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh, she's a total mermaid. And so you were able, were the waves any good down there?

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's waves this week.

• 7:38Rich Roll?

  And I asked you this last night, but I'm curious, and maybe people who are listening are curious, like, how does the skill set of skiing translate to surfing? It seems like it would be fairly direct.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  I think at least the athletic stance, once you're up, but everything else is totally foreign, and I'm just, I'm a kook.

• 7:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so you're just learning.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  I've been learning for like, a long time.

• 8:01Rich Roll?

  But you don't do it as consistently as you ski, obviously.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  No, I'm a, I get, you know, maybe a couple chances a year for, you know, less than a week to give it a shot, so.

• 8:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  But man, yeah, surfing's hard.

• 8:17Rich Roll?

  It's hard, man. It will humble you, for sure.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  It's definitely humbled me and frustrated me, but it's also, you know, those tiny little moments make you come back. I remember the best ride. That was so long ago and it's keeping me coming back.

• 8:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's like drugs, like you're just trying to seek that hot, that high that you got, you know, like, uh, that's what gets its claws in you, you know, you get that one good ride and that keeps you getting out there and, you know, falling on your face a thousand more times just in search of that, that one like blissful moment, right?

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Yep, yep.

• 8:50Rich Roll?

  Well, cool. Well, uh, so many things to dig into today. Um, but I think, you know, like, the best way to kick it off really is, you know, just kind of create a little context and, and set the stage. You know, when I think of you, I think of you as, you know, this incredibly powerful, positive role model for female empowerment, you know, that, that obviously is directly related to your, you know, your athletic accomplishments and, and, and what you do on the mountain, but really transcends that. Like you have a really strong message that is reaching a lot of people as, as this, you know, sort of example of what it means to be like a kick ass chick that shreds, you know what

• 9:31Rich Roll?

  I mean? That, that in many ways I think can be qualified as a redefinition of what it means to be, you know, a strong, young woman with, uh, you know, with a message and, um, with a skill set. And, you know, I think it's been transformative in, in a lot of people's lives. And I just want to thank you personally for being a role model as a father of two young girls. I think it's really cool.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  That means the world to me, coming from you.

• 9:59Rich Roll?

  You know, it's, you're strong and you have integrity and you do it with grace, you know? And I think that it takes a lot of, you know, inner self-esteem and composure to be able to do that in the face of what I would imagine are pressures that you face daily to do it a different way or to fit into kind of, you know, how other people would like you to do it, right?

• 10:23Speaker 01

  I really appreciate that I come off that way because I, I do not feel all those things that you just said, so thank you.

• 10:30Rich Roll?

  How do you feel?

• 10:33Speaker 01

  I'm, every day is, there's no roadmap, you know, there's no, uh,

• 10:40Speaker 01

  this is how they did it before, so this is the next step. Does that make sense? So it's always, I have to ask, I'm stumbling, I always feel like I'm stumbling.

• 10:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but you're following your intuition and you're following your heart, you know, in the same way, like, you know, when you look at someone like Laird Hamilton, there's no roadmap for what that guy has done, you know, I'm sure there were pressures on him to be a competitive surfer and he just blazed his own path and be able to, you know, he's been able to create this whole kind of thing that he does, but there was no example that preceded him, you know, and I think in the skiing world, especially as a female skier, like, there's no, there's nobody who was doing what you were doing before you were doing it.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  You know what, there actually were. The trouble is that I wasn't exposed to them and, uh, not very many people were, and that's what I had to find out was that there are incredible women that have come before me, but the trouble is, no one gave them a voice, no one gave them a stage, uh, to, to expose them to young girls like me, who needed legitimate, real role models, not models, who are just faking it, carrying the surfboard. You know, the first thing,

• 11:55Speaker 01

  that had an impact on me as a young girl was the Roxy catalog, and of course, I wanted to be a Roxy girl, right? Because I was like, oh, surfer girl, I want to be a surfer girl, and, um, and then when I found out that they didn't actually surf, they, they were just models. I was crushed, I was devastated, and that was kind of a motivator to say, I'm gonna be that, I'm gonna show you that we can do things, we can. We can do things. We're not just there to look good. Like, that's not the fun part. The fun part is riding the wave.

• 12:30Rich Roll?

  Right, being the person who actually embodies that.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't want to be the cheerleader on the sidelines. Like, that's, I want to, well, I'm terrible at basketball, but I want to participate.

• 12:42Rich Roll?

  Right. And to the extent that there were, you know, women that preceded you, you know, of course, of course, there were. And I say this a lot on the podcast, like, you know, it's important to shine a spotlight on, you know, powerful women that are, that are setting an example for, for young girls. And it seems like there aren't very many of them that are doing that, but of course there are. Like, we're just not very good at, at shining the spotlight on them. And so, you know, I feel a responsibility when I see someone like yourself or Robin Arzon or people that are like, you know, blazing these awesome paths to like, celebrate that.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's definitely shifting now. I mean, that's why I made the film that I did was to expose young girls to all these role models that do exist, all these incredible athletes that are creating this life that, to show that, yes, you belong out here too, because look at, look at all these women that are doing it that aren't necessarily being used in, in marketing campaigns that go to mass media.

• 13:37Rich Roll?

  Right. So how do you think, did you, were you conscious of this decision? Like, I'm going to do this and I'm going to find a way to have a voice. Like, did you plan that out? Or did it happen organically just through the, you know, kind of, you know, natural expression that you would have kind of exuded otherwise?

• 13:54Speaker 01

  A hundred percent organically. I never imagined I would be sitting here or ever have gotten paid to ski, ever, ever, in a thousand years. When I get these emails that say, how do you become a pro skier? I'm like, I have no idea. Wrong question, because that was never my intention.

• 14:11Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, I mean, you're a pro skier, but you're not a pro skier in the traditional idea of what a pro skier is or does.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  I don't know. What is a traditional?

• 14:19Rich Roll?

  I don't know. Well, somebody who's like on, you know, like, sort of competing professionally, right? Like, going to the Olympics and doing that circuit, whatever it's called.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I competed on, in the Junior Olympics in, in high school and won the Junior Olympics when I was young. But, you know, that's, that's not something like nationally televised or anything. And yeah, I What I would do now, I would have never imagined. Most people probably don't imagine that it's possible.

• 14:43Rich Roll?

  Right. And you had that opportunity, right? So let's, let's take it back to the beginning. Um, you grew up in Jackson Hole, right?

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Actually grew up in Sun Valley, Idaho.

• 14:52Rich Roll?

  Oh, in Sun Valley. I always confuse those two.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're really close. I grew up skiing in Jackson for ski races.

• 14:58Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Uh, and one of my, uh,

• 15:02Speaker 01

  biggest role models was my cousin. Her name's AJ Cargill and she would literally kidnap me from my ski races at 13 and make me go ski powder. And I would miss the whole, the whole race weekend. I'd be chasing the bus on the way out of town to go back to, back to Sun Valley after like missing all my races, jumping off cliffs with my cousin.

• 15:24Rich Roll?

  So you'd go, you'd go out of town to these ski resorts to race and then you would blow it off and then just go back country?

• 15:31Speaker 01

  I mean, that happened one time and it was, it was life changing. Uh, but yeah, I grew up.

• 15:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Before that, I mean, your parents were both avid skiers, right?

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Yep. It's a pretty cute story. They met on the mountain. And, uh, mom likes to tell it that, you know, dad said, I'll meet you at the bottom. And she was there waiting for him. It's pretty cute. She was from Michigan. He was from Seattle. Uh, he was a pro racer at the time. So on the downhill circuit. And, uh, she loved skiing and, but was a fashionista style.

• 16:04Rich Roll?

  And so, uh, that, how old were they when they met? Like, were they just doing the ski bum thing at that time? Or were they both living there?

• 16:12Speaker 01

  I think they were chasing this, this ski bum lifestyle in Sun Valley in the seventies. Uh, you know, that's when it was, you know, that started our whole, I don't know, just the brilliance of, of the ski bum lifestyle. Warren Miller, living in the parking lot of Sun Valley. Uh, you know, I grew up going to Warren Miller ski films where I watched this whole community come together around this sport that I loved and, uh, that most people couldn't understand. And it was, those are some of the best memories I have, both of our family and just really seeing community come together around this thing that feels like flying, that you can't,

• 16:52Speaker 01

  powder skiing, you know, there's, there is no way to win an award at powder skiing, but that was what. Lit me up, you know.

• 17:01Rich Roll?

  But initially, you went that traditional route of, you know, ski racing, right? When you were a little kid, Junior Olympics and all that kind of stuff.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Right. The only way to continue skiing was to go the race route. My dad wasn't okay with me going the moguls. Um, he said, you'd, I, you'd blow out your knees. And I, if I have a regret, it's, it's not going that route because I probably would have gone to the Olympics around 16. Frankly, because there wasn't much competition and, um.

• 17:29Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, you want, you won Junior Olympics, right? And you were, your star was rising and that was kind of the path that was laid out in front of you.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  As a ski racer, yes, but I was never really passionate about chasing gates. You know, I never, I remember the moment that I didn't understand, um, what, what it was. So I, I remember being so confused, like, okay, so you go around a blue thing and then a red thing. And you remember like, I'm like, young, right? Um, and then a blue thing and a red thing, and you get judged on how fast you get to the bottom. And it, it, the people that are celebrated versus those that are not are, are separated by hundreds and tenths of a second, like it didn't make any sense to me. And I remember the moment that it, it taught me to compare myself to others versus what I knew about skiing,

• 18:16Speaker 01

  which was this thing that you did with your friends all at the same time, soaring down a mountain, partially out of control as fast as you could. And that's why skiing was so fun to me.

• 18:26Rich Roll?

  So what do you make of that? I mean, did you have an awareness at that, at that early age, like, I don't know about competition? Like this to see, it sounds like you did, like you were aware, like this seems odd.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  It was, it was really odd, but.

• 18:38Rich Roll?

  Succeeding anyway.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Well, I was a pleaser, you know, and, uh, and I wanted to make everyone proud. Like I think so many females do, you do what you're told and you do what is expected. And I, it's, it wasn't like it was that regimented, but I loved skiing and the ski racing was a way to continue doing it. Um, and, and you don't really, I didn't know what I wanted to do, right? It was sort of like, well, that's just what you do. You go to skiing and you go to ballet and you go to soccer and you go to softball, you know? I didn't think a whole lot about it. I never imagined taking it super far, didn't have that, that dream to go to the Olympics or anything.

• 19:13Rich Roll?

  You didn't, even though, even though like that was a very realistic possibility for you. You were like, I'd take it or take it or leave it, like it wasn't that important to you?

• 19:22Speaker 01

  No, I, I, I never saw it until I started recognizing that

• 19:29Speaker 01

  my coaches and, and I guess, community had me on that path.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Fundraising events and whatnot. I remember going to an event where they had me put on this T-shirt and it had my results on the back of it. And I realized that it was a fundraising event. And that was the first time that I heard that I was sponsored, that I had actual donors supporting my training and travel. Uh, because my family, we didn't, I, I had no idea what it costed to be going to Europe and all these races and.

• 20:04Rich Roll?

  Did that feel like pressure on your shoulders that you didn't want?

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I, I kind of cracked under that. Once I realized, I mean, they called it the Olympic Development Program. And I was like, what?

• 20:16Speaker 01

  So you expect me to go there? Yeah, I, I crumbled. I had no idea.

• 20:21Rich Roll?

  And was training like intense at that time? Was it regimented and structured? Or were you just going out and shredding at will?

• 20:29Speaker 01

  It was intense, but I loved it because I loved my coaches and they were incredible role models. And chasing them around the mountain on powder days was, was, you know, what? It, it got me so excited. Um, like I said, just on the edge of control. And then all summer, to, to please them and to make them proud, I and my brother showed up in the gym every morning at five, lifting awful amounts of weight, hating every second of it. But that, that fall, uh, I think I was 15, um, went to Europe and started beating the boys and,

• 21:07Speaker 01

  and, uh, yeah, I, I just, I didn't even, I had no idea.

• 21:11Rich Roll?

  It wasn't really like registering on you?

• 21:14Speaker 01

  It really wasn't.

• 21:14Rich Roll?

  That's so interesting.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  No, I, yeah, I.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 21:20Rich Roll?

  So throughout high school, you're doing this and you get you end up getting like a scholarship, right? College?

• 21:27Speaker 01

  So that's kind of once in skiing, when you go to college, you're kind of essentially put out to pasture. You know that it's kind of like you're you're done.

• 21:36Rich Roll?

  Right, because if you're serious about the Olympics, you just you bypass college and just focus on that, right?

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Exactly. You know, so when I started, a couple tough things happened when I started really performing and sort of unaware, I just I had this power and the strength that I hadn't had before and it allowed me to, I guess, take risks. But they weren't they didn't feel like risks because I had the the strength to, I don't know, do some magical things on snow. But what came of it was heavy bullying. When I started doing well, the I had heavy bullying through all the way through high school and it was all from high school even into college, from my own teammates.

• 22:27Rich Roll?

  Because why? Like you were excelling. Like, I would imagine you're one of the you're one of the best, right? Are there are there a bunch of other girls or is it mostly boys?

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Guys and girls, but it's it's an individual sport, you know, and and growing up in in a wealthy town doesn't necessarily mean that everyone's happy. You know, I think a lot of people think that, oh, if if so, we grew up, I grew up actually like in a average home, but I thought we were poor, right? Because I didn't I didn't

• 22:59Rich Roll?

  Super wealthy.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I didn't. My parents both worked, so I was kind of I got picked up at school by other parents and went to ballet and.

• 23:09Rich Roll?

  Because you're like a like a townie sort of like is that is that sort of what it was like? I mean, ski resort towns are very unique ecosystems, right?

• 23:18Speaker 01

  I don't know. I see. I don't know how to compare it, right?

• 23:21Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  I called myself I thought when I found out what a latchkey kid was, I was like, oh, I guess I'm a latchkey kid. Meaning, you remember that what that term meant?

• 23:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because your parents are both working.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, you come home after skiing.

• 23:35Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Right. And and then I felt badly about that. But off the subject.

• 23:43Rich Roll?

  Bullying.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess.

• 23:45Rich Roll?

  Like bullying you for, for what? Like because they were competitive with you?

• 23:50Speaker 01

  I think there's a couple of things. I think in, in retrospect, there just was some really unhappy kids that weren't getting a detention from their parents, that really needed some love from their parents. I mean, I would lay in bed at night and, and try to think of comebacks that would make them leave me alone. Cause there's really just one ringleader, but the rest of them followed. And it was actually a kid in particular that I grew up with, like our families were friends when we were really young. We took baths together and we're like, you know, we have baby pictures together and it was really sad. And it was a long time. And so I guess if I, that would be something if I had a, something I could say to any kid that was being bullied now.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  One, it gets better. And I, I feel like now it made me tough. And I, if I could tell kids, I'd say like, this is your warrior ship. And there, there might be nothing that you can do about it, except that

• 24:55Speaker 01

  it's never, it, it's made me strong.

• 25:00Rich Roll?

  It's amazing how many like really high performing people that I know. And a lot of people that I've had on the podcast were bullied as, as young people. You know what I mean? Like, cause you're a little bit left of center, or you're a little bit different, or you're thinking outside the box. And you know, that's not always so good when you're in, you know, fifth, sixth, seventh grade.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  In this case though, I think it was straight up competition and I, I, I'm a team sport person.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  I didn't like making, didn't like the fact that someone else had to lose so that I could win. I, it just wasn't my thing. I like, I like the we. I loved soccer. I loved softball. I loved genuinely hoping someone else would play to their best so that we could win, so that we could celebrate. And, and yeah, I just, I didn't, I even, when I did well, I, I felt bad because other people were, were sad. And when I did, when I didn't perform, I felt bad because.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Because you know, you're taught to like if you didn't, if you don't win, there are times when I would say, I didn't feel like I deserved to eat.

• 26:09Rich Roll?

  It's weird. It's almost like you've set up your own little prison because you excel at these individual sports. And yet this is the feeling that it's giving you.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and I don't mean to take anything away from skiing or ski racing because it taught me so many other, so many important things, discipline and, and showing up when I didn't want to and showing up in all conditions and, uh, you know, getting comfortable with the uncomfortable and pushing myself. I mean, a thousand things. And when I finally decided to do, do it for myself, use all those skills that I had been taught from my coaches and from the program. I took off, you know, when I could finally, uh, get behind them from my heart instead of the shoulds.

• 26:51Rich Roll?

  Right. And we're going to build towards that. But prior to that, so you're, you're being bullied and you're sort of souring on this idea of competition. Like, do you reach some kind of, you know, burnout situation when you're in high school where you're like, I'm done with this?

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I think, uh, just the pressure. Um, like I said, if a lot of us, um, got to the point where if you weren't performing, then it, it's your whole life, right?

• 27:14Rich Roll?

  It's your identity.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Absolutely. A hundred percent of your identity and.

• 27:18Rich Roll?

  Especially in a ski town, that's probably all anyone's talking about, right?

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:22Rich Roll?

  It's like football in Texas or something like that.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. If I wasn't in the newspaper, it was like.

• 27:28Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  I didn't go to school much. I didn't, uh, yeah, it was my whole life.

• 27:33Rich Roll?

  Hmm. So is there a point where you just quit outright or you just shift gears with your skiing or what did that look like at that time?

• 27:41Speaker 01

  So I used it to, to get a scholarship into school and went to the design, design program in, at MSU Bozeman, Division One Ski Racing. Um, but yeah, super burnt out.

• 27:55Rich Roll?

  Hmm. So you continue to ski in college, but it's not the same thing.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  No, no, it's not the same thing. Um, and again, it was just an excuse to, to train, to continue to train hard, to build friendships and, um, to, you know, check out this new thing called college.

• 28:11Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and that's where you, is that where you kind of discover this love of art and design? Did you always have that?

• 28:17Speaker 01

  I'd always had that. Um, my parents assumed that I would, I was going to go into art, not athletics. Uh, I was, I'm actually, um,

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Not, I mean, my dad even says it, like, you had to work hard, and your brother had the talent. So I'm not.

• 28:37Rich Roll?

  I don't know if that's such a nice thing to say.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  It's our family joke, you know.

• 28:42Rich Roll?

  So your brother's a super talented skier?

• 28:44Speaker 01

  He was talented at everything athletically.

• 28:46Rich Roll?

  What's he doing now?

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Uh, he is, has the regu-, you know, the typical, he's got a house and a kid, a kid and a two-car garage and wife.

• 28:57Rich Roll?

  Does he live in Sun Valley still?

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 28:59Rich Roll?

  He does. And he was a ski racer also?

• 29:02Speaker 01

  He ski raced, he played baseball, he, he, um, he did everything, easily.

• 29:08Rich Roll?

  But like, normal guy?

• 29:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, normal guy, but also just never really found his, his thing that he was super passionate about. You know, I almost wonder if it was, it was too easy.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  And, yeah.

• 29:20Rich Roll?

  So you go to college, you start studying design and art and all these beautiful pursuits. But I feel like the turning point for you was really when you did this semester, was it a semester or a year when you went to Italy?

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Wow, you did some research.

• 29:34Rich Roll?

  I always do some research.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Well done, well done.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  So yeah, I went to school, uh, got into the design program, incredible, no one would think it, but I had an incredible design program, incredible professor that is still, um, a huge role model and friend. But he wasn't in the beginning, so, um, I went to school in Italy for a year abroad and it was.

• 30:03Rich Roll?

  Like Florence, or where'd you go?

• 30:04Speaker 01

  It was such an incredible program, we traveled all over, um, all over the country from Florence to Rome to, we spent a month in the Umbria countryside studying printmaking in a castle.

• 30:15Rich Roll?

  Wow, like traditional, old-school printmaking?

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, um, and I could run through the, the orchards and the olive fields every day. Uh, but I was the only athlete and, and it was great. Not one conversation had to do with sports and it was so good for me.

• 30:33Rich Roll?

  And that's really the fir-, the first time you'd ever really taken a break from skiing, right?

• 30:37Speaker 01

  First ever.

• 30:38Rich Roll?

  That you could have a life like outside of that, yeah.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  It was incredibly good for my sense of the world that there is more to life than.

• 30:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think it's hard. Um, you know, when you're a high performing athlete, there's a lot of fear around even taking a, taking a break at all, like let alone like an entire year. Like, did you go, did you ski in the winter time when you were in Italy? Or just nothing?

• 31:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 31:01Rich Roll?

  Not at all?

• 31:02Speaker 01

  And I didn't even notice.

• 31:03Rich Roll?

  This is like a reinvention, like a rebirth, like a, a, a, a, a period of like discovery.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Absolutely. It was so good for me.

• 31:10Rich Roll?

  And so you're like making, you're doing, you're making prints and studying art and going to the museums and all that kind of stuff?

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 31:17Rich Roll?

  Cool. And so when that wraps up, we, I, I assume you're with other students from your school, like you did it as a group?

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 31:25Rich Roll?

  And when you go back, do you have a different perspective on your skiing or a, some clarity on like what you wanted to do and be?

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Actually, I was still following the, the should model, right? Which is you go to college, you get good grades so that you can get a good job, you know? Uh, and so the next, uh, step seemed to be go get an internship. And being competitive, I got the best internship I could. Um, it was actually, uh, and I, I was getting paid a lot. And it was in San Francisco, um, at a video game, um,

• 32:06Speaker 01

  company?

• 32:07Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. And what was the mission statement of this video game company?

• 32:12Speaker 01

  Um, I went to one of the, it was incredible place to work. I, I mean, really, it was as good as you, you get. There was soccer games at lunch and there was paid for, um, spin classes that I could take at any, anytime.

• 32:27Rich Roll?

  That, that whole like sort of startup San Francisco vibe going on?

• 32:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, there are brilliant people around me, brilliant designers and creators. I was actually, um, a video game character, uh, that was really fun. You know, they, they used my, modeled my body off of, and I got to be a character. That was fun. Um, but yeah, I, I went to one of the, you know, the meetings, um, you know, company-wide meetings where they, they get you all fired up and give you the vision. And their vision was that, um, people would spend more time online, in their online life, their avatar life than they did in their regular life. That was their goal. And as soon as I heard that, I was. I had to run.

• 33:17Rich Roll?

  You're like, I can't, I can't participate in this.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  I couldn't because everything that I had learned in life was all of the joy that I had found came from being outside in movement. And I couldn't support that.

• 33:31Rich Roll?

  This company is like at cross purposes, like your whole idea of how one should live.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  You know what, though? It's been a long time, though, and that moment has stuck with me. And I wonder now if this whole, I don't like being against anything. I like to try to work with things and see a different perspective. And this whole VR movement and whatnot, you know, not everyone can have access to the mountains. I realize even Disneyland creations, right? Like Monster Mountain or what do they call them? Like they're emulating these places that, that not very many of us can be, right? And so if I can use VR or, or video games essentially to offer someone that authentic experience that I'm getting, especially in an empowerment way, then, then I'm all for it.

• 34:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's definitely not a black or white thing. You know, it's, it's tricky because there is that argument. Like if you're a paraplegic or you're stuck in a hospital and, and you want to experience what it feels like to do what you do.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:35Rich Roll?

  And you can put on a VR headset and like have that experience. That's a gift to that individual. But the flip side of that is the person that then locks himself in a container like this and never takes the goggles off and never goes outside and lives their entire experience in this, you know, fabricated universe.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Well, it's tough though, right? Like what do you get exposure to? If a kid in a inner city can only get out by a video game, like can we hold him back? You know, can we attack him for it? I'm very aware that skiing is an elitist sport and that it requires a lot of money to have that experience. And it's really easy for me to say, you know, come ski with me, blah, blah, blah. Like, and until I can help support in a way that we, everyone can have that experience, especially kids, then I can't attack any.

• 35:30Rich Roll?

  Right, or if someone watches one of your videos, or has a, you know, can experience, you know, what you do in virtual reality, maybe it would inspire a young kid to like, go after that dream of trying to figure out a way to get to the mountain.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  That's my hope. That's my hope with the videos is that it can inspire people to, to get outside and have that experience, and that it's not all scary. Like, it's welcoming and it's magical. That's why I bring in the unicorn, especially for girls, because it takes this thing that people have primarily seen as extreme and, oh, I could never do that, to, it's fun and it's playful and it's magical.

• 36:05Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  There's sparkles.

• 36:07Rich Roll?

  Explain, explain the unicorn.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  So, people think that I'm obsessed with the unicorn, but the truth is, I'm trying to speak to young girls. And how do you speak to your audience? You have to speak their language. And what lights everyone up? Like, when, when people see a unicorn, they smile. And then, and I can talk to any kid in an airport. And I do. I'm like the weirdo. It's like, hey, you like unicorns? Me too. And it works. You know, they're like, yes. And, uh...

• 36:37Rich Roll?

  The magical unifier.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  But what's also cool is, it, it reminds older people of their childhood too, when anything was possible. And, and there was magic and you could, you, you believed in your dreams. And, uh, so I'm all for it. I, young, actual children and, and those who used to be children, and I want to bring them back. And I think mountains do that. And when you, when you play, when you remember that, that state.

• 37:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so you, so you created this unicorn using your artistic skills. And that, it is, it's a beautiful symbol of like innocence and joy and the imagination and magic and all of these things that skiing is for you.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  And a time when anything was possible, right? There was a time when you, you believed anything was possible. And I want to bring people back to that. And I think the mountains do that.

• 37:39Rich Roll?

  And that video game company was not doing that.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't know. I'm still trying to see it in a different way.

• 37:46Rich Roll?

  But I think it's interesting that you had the, you know, the gumption and the sort of sense of self to walk away from that, like, you know, a young person with a great job at an exciting place and they, you know, all these cool people doing interesting things. I mean, it would have been easy to stay and rationalize it or just say, you know what, I'm going to do this for a couple of years. I'm going to make some money. And, you know, maybe I'll, I can spend my, you know, I can go on these vacations or in a couple of years I'll get back to the mountain. You know, lots of people do that. And then, you know, life just then, you know, goes on. And then 10 years later, they're like, oh, yeah.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Actually, no. I felt like I was dying. It was that bad. I felt like there was definitely a pivotal moment where I was looking out the window. I had a window even, you know, in a cubicle. I mean, that's for an intern. I was crushing it. And looking out the perfectly manicured lawn and I felt like I was dying. I felt like I had done everything right, everything they tell you.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  And I was like, well, if this doesn't make me happy and this is what, you know, essentially society tells you to do, then, then what does make you happy? Because I'm not going to survive at this. And I thought back to when I was sitting in those, in the theater, getting beer spilled on me as a little kid, staring at Warren Miller movies, watching this entire community be brought to get, brought together by this thing that really had no economic reason to pursue it, you know. But it mattered to me. And so I was like, well, I never saw women in those movies.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  So I want to show, I want to see if we can, I want to show girls that we can be in those. I mean, they, they were, they were kind of bimbos at the bottom when I was little.

• 39:39Rich Roll?

  Right, but totally male dominated situation.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like, I remember even as a 10 year old, like I could do that.

• 39:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Watching the movies.

• 39:48Rich Roll?

  And so it wasn't really like, you didn't, you didn't like imagine this specific, did you imagine like this specific goal? Like this is what I'm going to go do, or you just felt like this pull, like I need to get back to what's important to me. And I'll figure it out.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  No, I, I fully, I think it was the artist background, but I had the vision of, of that inspirational. When I watched those films, I got shivers at certain points when everything came together, the music and the artistry of the shot. And I think that's where the, the art combined with the athletics to, to see this picture of that slow mo turn, you know, where the sparkles fly and, and it all comes together. To make an inspirational film, so it was really the combination.

• 40:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, this idea that, that skiing is a, you know, is a form of self-expression. That is very much artistic and is, you know, a sort of external manifestation of, of who you are in your own unique unicorn way. And to the extent that that can be captured and shared, uh, you know, taking a tip from Warren Miller, but finding a way to do it your way is a way of you taking your two loves of art and skiing and bringing them together into this like unifying concept.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Right, so that's what I did. But first you had to prove yourself, right? And for the first time, literally that day in the office, I called up Powder Magazine and I was like, so how do you? How do you, how do you do this? How do you? And they like transferred me a thousand times.

• 41:30Rich Roll?

  Do what?

• 41:31Speaker 01

  This, I want to do the skiing thing. I don't remember exactly how I asked, but they, they eventually transferred me to the intern, who, at the time, her name is Ingrid Backstrom. And she is, is just one of the most incredible female skiers there are. And she, she was very sweet and was like, well, I suggest you get into some competitions and, and go from there. And my cousin AJ had been one of the pioneers of extreme skiing for women and had been encouraging me for years to, to get into these extreme skiing.

• 42:17Rich Roll?

  So AJ's, AJ's female.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  She is, yeah.

• 42:20Rich Roll?

  She's your cousin.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Amy Jo.

• 42:21Rich Roll?

  And she's the one, I mean, she's the one, as you mentioned earlier, that like you were, like she was the mentor, right? Who's like, let's go back country, let's ski all this, forget about these races, right? And how you were able to kind of tap in with the, with the love of that.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:36Rich Roll?

  So you go back, so you go back to, you go back home?

• 42:40Speaker 01

  Uh, so, uh, that was in the summer and I just, I started training hard then. And, and it was like all of the years and years of training for other people finally crystallized into training.

• 42:59Rich Roll?

  For yourself.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  For myself. Oh my God. And I could, I could, I could lift far more. I could run twice as far. Like I remember putting on my sweatpants in college to go out in negative 30 degree weather, um, at 10 o'clock at night, so energized. Um, and my, my roommates would be like, what are you doing? I'd be like, going for a run. And they would all look at me like I was crazy and they did, everyone thought I was crazy for, for, um, years. And that was the best part is the first time in my life I was doing it, something a hundred percent for myself, not for any outside affirmation or, uh, approval. It was so empowering.

• 43:42Rich Roll?

  And still, without any sense of like, how you're gonna make a living doing this, right? Like, you were just following your muse.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I didn't expect to make a living. To me, it was like, okay, I have this goal, and I'm young enough, I wanna check this off the list, you know, like, the bucket list of, um, I wanna get into a Warren Miller movie.

• 44:00Rich Roll?

  Right. And if you have to work at Starbucks, or do whatever you have to do, like, you're gonna make it happen.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I figured I was young enough that I could, um, and if I failed, I knew that I tried.

• 44:09Rich Roll?

  And when you quit that video game job, what did your parents say? Were they supportive?

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, um, I think they had learned a long time ago.

• 44:19Rich Roll?

  Lindsay's gotta do what Lindsay's gotta do.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, my dad'll even say it, like, you couldn't, you couldn't tell me what to do. If you did, I'd probably do the opposite.

• 44:26Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. So, cool. So you start to do this, and at the ti- like, I have my, like, as I'm listening to you tell this story, like, I have, there's a lot of similarities. Like, I had a similar kind of moment where I shifted gears. It's just, I was forty when, you know, it's like, a lot, like, I wish I had my, the sense of self that you had, that, that sort of composure that you had as a young person.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  It wasn't that, though. It was, to me, it felt like I was dying. It wasn't composure. It wasn't this, like, you're making it sound way flowery.

• 44:56Rich Roll?

  I'm not gonna repress, like, I think I probably had a little bit of that, but I just pushed it down. I was like, no, this is what, you know, this is what I'm supposed to do, like, and I just figured everyone felt like I did, but they sucked it up, and it took me a long time to figure out, like, no, they actually like it. Like, you know, I'm the one who's suffering. They're not suffering like I am. Like, maybe I should listen to this, but I had to, like, go through a lot of pain in years and years and years before I arrived at that point. And for you, maybe it was just more acute, but I think you just had enough sense of yourself to say, this isn't, this isn't the box that I should be trying to jam myself into. And that takes courage, you know, and it takes, it takes a, like, self-esteem and a sense of self. And, yeah, when you're younger, it's easier.

• 45:38Rich Roll?

  You don't have attachments and all that kind of stuff. But still, I think, you know, it bears mentioning that, that, I think that is hard. And I think there's a lot of people who end up in careers not of their own, sort of, most conscious choosing, just because they thought that's what they're supposed to do, and are not happy, and didn't have that, you know, didn't have enough of that sense to get out when they were younger, and then they end up feeling stuck. And it's, it's tragic.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Mm hmm, absolutely.

• 46:06Rich Roll?

  So it's cool that you did that. So you're home and you're just, you're killing it training, right? And you're like, I'm gonna be in one of these Warren Miller movies. And, and you knew him, right? Like he was in the community, right? In the parking lot? Or like, did he come and go? Or like, where does that guy live?

• 46:20Speaker 01

  He lived in California. Uh, he was, he was a filmmaker in California.

• 46:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, explain. I mean, maybe people who are listening, not everybody knows who he is, but you know, legendary ski filmmaker.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Right. He kind of put ski films on the map and he created an entire genre of opportunity for those of us that ski in the films. Uh, I guess it, it, it's like acting, except you're, you're an athlete. So, or a stunt person, but the, all the films are just pure stunts.

• 46:54Rich Roll?

  But they're beautifully composed, right? It really elevated, you know, that to a very specific art form. And he, you know, he pioneered that.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 47:03Rich Roll?

  You know, pre Instagram and pre all the stuff that we do today.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  Right. But after 10 years of doing it, I hadn't seen that vision of what, what I had always seen in my head that had motivated, you know, getting into the competition scene again and, and, and all of it. So I had to make.

• 47:23Rich Roll?

  Right. So what, if you had to articulate that vision, what does that sound like?

• 47:30Speaker 01

  It had, it was like everyone was following his model instead of,

• 47:36Speaker 01

  instead of evolving it and not even evolving it. But it was almost like, why isn't anyone just showing the way it is? The way it is, meaning we're awkward in the parking lot and um, families fighting to get out the door. Uh, and instead it was just like the.

• 47:54Rich Roll?

  The perfection.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Exactly. Which isn't really relatable.

• 47:57Rich Roll?

  Emotional connection or the, the humanity behind it.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. And I wanted to celebrate those parts of it because those were, that's the, that's what makes it fun.

• 48:07Rich Roll?

  Well, I think that's also what really engages the viewer also, like if they can see somebody as a fully formed human being that, you know, that they can relate to, who like has the same kind of conversations they have or arguments or what have you, they're like, oh, I like that person. I can see myself in that person. And then when you go out and do rad stuff, they're like totally in for the ride.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Right. I think everyone, they want to see themselves reflected back in film or media. And if you're not seeing how you engage in this sport, then it's boring. And I think that's kind of how it is right now. Ski films, I think are fairly boring. Even though the stunts in them are incredible and the athleticism it takes to pull them off is insane. And the level of risk that we're all taking, but I don't think it's necessary.

• 48:58Rich Roll?

  Meaning what?

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Well.

• 49:03Rich Roll?

  Like what's not necessary?

• 49:04Speaker 01

  The level of risk that we're all taking.

• 49:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I think that's really getting rationed it up too, with, you know, kind of like the whole Red Bull films ethos and Instagram and trying to get the perfect shot and everybody trying to, you know, up the ante, you know, one stunt at a time. I mean, you see it in rock climbing. It's like insane, right? Like even the sponsors are backing away from the athletes because they're like, this is too crazy. Somebody's going to die. And, you know, I'm sure people in skiing are, you know, they are dying, right? And so that pressure to like, you know, I've got to get this shot or get this clip, you know, because it's going to be super epic and doing things you wouldn't ordinarily do because you're so wed to the viewership and the likes, et cetera.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  What's great is that it is shifting. We have lost enough people where that awareness is, and education is becoming cool, right? And so there was a time when I felt like, you know, I had already hit a 70 foot cliff and I didn't want to go bigger than that. And I was like, how can I outdo that? And the pressure of that, that I remember feeling. Moments of the only way you could out do that is if you died.

• 50:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  You know, and I think a lot of athletes feel that way. And, um, and so how can you reinvent it to, to make it just as engaging? But, um, you know, especially when you're about being a decent role model. Like, how can we show the kids that it, it's good to take care of yourself? Especially with the head injuries and the, um, all the other, just

• 50:44Speaker 01

  the parts of it that I'm not, you know, proud to support.

• 50:47Rich Roll?

  Right. So you do that by bringing in the humanity and bringing in the stories and, and, and providing, you know, kind of the inspiration and the, the kind of life advice for a young person that can inspire them and make them feel like this is possible for themselves and, and hopefully set them on a, you know, a trajectory that will get them to embrace the outdoors in the way that you do.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  I hope so.

• 51:10Rich Roll?

  Is that, is that like the idea?

• 51:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that it's fun to get educated with your friends. And, and it's still, if you ask any professional skier, the best part about skiing is still powder skiing with your friends. It's not jumping off enormous cliffs.

• 51:25Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  And so those are the parts that I want to empower.

• 51:29Rich Roll?

  So you're training like a crazy person, right? And so was there a, was there like a break? Like, what was the first moment where you thought this is going to click in and this is going to work? Or how did that kind of unfold for you?

• 51:43Speaker 01

  Um, the, I was blown away by how easy it was to, I, I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way, but I, I won every competition I entered.

• 51:53Rich Roll?

  Right. So we didn't, but even like, so the first, the first step was getting in shape to, to then enter these freestyle competitions. Right. Which is a whole brand new, different world of skiing. Right. And so explain what that, what those competitions are and what that whole world is about. Cause we see skiing on television. We see, what did I call it last night? The Grand Slalom.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  The Grand Slalom.

• 52:13Rich Roll?

  We were talking last night, that's how much I know about skiing. You know, the downhill and the slalom, et cetera, but this is a completely different thing.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's giant slalom.

• 52:22Rich Roll?

  Right, it's the giant slalom, but I'm talking about freestyle now.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Right. So yeah, most people, when they think of ski competition, they think of Olympics, GS, giant slalom, slalom, downhill, moguls.

• 52:35Rich Roll?

  I got the G part right.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're doing great.

• 52:38Rich Roll?

  I'm all over it.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then there's, and what's so cool is now they've, they've included the park events. But big mountain skiing is very much in the natural environment. You're making the first tracks down, down something. And that's part of my favorite.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  Some of my favorite parts about it are that the creative, the, the fact that you choose your line down the mountain. And, um, and that's how you're judged.

• 53:12Rich Roll?

  Like you're judged based on like the creativity that you bring to the run.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're judged on five different criteria of your difficulty of line, fluidity, technique. Time isn't until, you know, the very last thing, as where in ski racing, you're only judged on time. And, and so it suited me really well.

• 53:38Rich Roll?

  Right. So it's, it's more about self-expression than it is, you know, just like definitive performance.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Do you make people excited when they, they're watching, you know, is it, does it look really fun?

• 53:51Rich Roll?

  And so you, and so you, you win the first one of these that you enter?

• 53:55Speaker 01

  I, I actually, yeah, all, all seven.

• 53:58Rich Roll?

  Right. Every, so every one that you would then, and you won.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:01Rich Roll?

  And prior to that, how many women were, were part of the, this freestyle world?

• 54:07Speaker 01

  Um.

• 54:08Rich Roll?

  Was it mostly dudes?

• 54:09Speaker 01

  It was mostly dudes, a handful. There are, there are like three that I could name that were, you know, in the magazines and, and writing and.

• 54:19Rich Roll?

  But that, that world didn't exist when you were in high school. It's like a new thing.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  You know, it might have, but I wasn't exposed to it.

• 54:25Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. So you find your thing with this, obviously, right? And, and this is getting you noticed, I would imagine, right?

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Again, it was, I, I did not like competition. So really, I was just.

• 54:36Rich Roll?

  This is still competition. So how are you reconciling like?

• 54:39Speaker 01

  I wanted to get out of there as soon as quickly.

• 54:40Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did? Even though like you're winning and killing it again, you still want, it's still too much.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  It's just a means to an end. It was to me a way to prove to the sponsors that, um, that I was legitimate. That was how you proved yourself. Uh, and yeah, in this world, it's, everybody wants to be in film and photo because that's where the sponsors are. That's where you can get paid. And now I have so much respect for, the level of competition has increased so much since I was there. And these women and guys that are on the competitive scene now, people don't know their names. And yet they, they are the best skiers on, you know, in the world, but people don't know their names because you need the, the big name sponsors.

• 55:22Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  And those that have put their time in there to me have, uh, have that validity that I respect. But now.

• 55:32Rich Roll?

  Because they're not at the Olympics, like we don't talk about them. Outside that insular world, like most people don't know who these people are.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Right. And sadly, the, the whole Instagram world has changed things even more where people are not even going through, uh, that system of, of being, I guess, vetted. They're just calling themselves athletes and calling themselves pro skiers and instantly they can blow themselves up on, on social media and then you get the sponsors. And so it's totally changed our sport. I mean, it's, as you know, it's easy to get, to make a nice turn and put it up on the gram. Um, but to, to ski a line, uh, in challenging snow and.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  Europe, you know, like, uh, these athletes are crushing it now, but they're not necessarily getting the recognition that they deserve.

• 56:24Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, it's interesting with Instagram. I mean, on the one level, like to just play devil's advocate with that, um, perhaps it could allow somebody to create a life around skiing without going through that competition route at all, like somebody who really can deliver the goods, who's really awesome. And because they're, they're sharing it in this social context, they can get the sponsors and not have to deal with, you know, some of that process that was ill suited to you. But most of them probably are just not like they're just, it's just for the, it's just for the likes, right?

• 57:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's kind of sad, I think, um, though how easy it is now, um, to really, all you need is some blonde hair and a cute smile and, and, uh, you can, you can get all kinds of sponsors.

• 57:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and we're gonna get it, we're gonna unpack that in a second, but just we're working our way up to that, because that's really like the, the crux and the meat of like, you know, kind of where you've changed the dynamic a little bit. Um, but I first want to understand like how this whole world of sponsorship and sponsors works. So like you establish yourself in this world, and then there are these companies that say, all right, we want to basically pay you to endorse our product. And that's what allows people like yourself to like, continue to ski. Like, how does that whole thing work?

• 57:45Speaker 01

  I still am not exactly sure.

• 57:48Rich Roll?

  But you have sponsors.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  I know my experience, but, uh, I don't know everyone's, so I can't speak on behalf of everyone, but, or like what the scene is, the, the way you do this. Uh, but the way, so far, and, and honestly, I, I don't even call this a career still, you know, at, at any moment I could be. You know, I'm a line item on, so, and I'm very aware of that. So, as it stands right now, I'm still blown away that I keep getting the call.

• 58:21Rich Roll?

  Right, so you have like a couple sponsors and they allow you to be able to like, just do what you do, right?

• 58:27Speaker 01

  Yep, yeah, you know, get a base salary and then I'm expected to, to be available for a certain amount of days per year, whether for their needs, whether that's poster signings, or show up at trade shows, or, you know, be, promote this new product, or be in the photo shoot for, you know, promoting a new product.

• 58:52Rich Roll?

  Right. Alright, so you win all these seven competitions and then you want out of that, right? So how does that look for you? Like, how did that work in terms of like, did you land sponsors as a result of that? And then you have the ability to like, step outside the competitive zone?

• 59:08Speaker 01

  I, I thought I would, but no, no one cared. I was so lucky to get a pair of skis to, to ride on. And that was really just, it's still about friends, you know, borrowing a, a pair of friends' skis. So yeah, no one cared. And my goal again is focus on,

• 59:29Speaker 01

  what's it gonna take to get into a film? I wanna film. I don't wanna be in competition.

• 59:33Rich Roll?

  Right, and so how did that, how did that come about? The first one of those come about?

• 59:37Speaker 01

  Uh, so,

• 59:40Speaker 01

  I'd love to talk to you about almost not graduating.

• 59:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, okay, let's talk about it.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  Well, it's just sort of a funny story because while I was competing, I was still trying to graduate. I was in my senior year of college and I was going to all these competitions, so I was missing a lot of school. And one of the things that my professor said, had always been, combine what you love with design. And so that's what I thought that I was doing. And as it came closer to graduation, he pulled me aside and was like, "You're not on track to graduate." And I was like, "What? I, I mean, my grades are fine." He's like, "No, participation is part of this." And he was really grumpy with me. He, he thought that I'd just been blowing school off to go skiing.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  And I, I was like, beside myself, you know, it's weeks away from graduation and I didn't, I was like, "I don't know how I'm gonna..." Pull this off and we're in the design lab and someone had sent some a picture or something of of the podium and he happened to be walking behind me and saw the screen at that time and and he he stopped and he was like, wait, this is what you've been doing? And I was like, yeah, I'm trying to um, this is what I've been doing. And he did a full 180 at that moment, recognizing that I was working towards something that actually he had inspired in some ways. And

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  to this day, I talk to his classes about what it looks like to combine design and and sport. You know, I've been able to design my own ski line and and the liners on jackets and posters and so much of my design background has helped this career.

• 1:01:28Rich Roll?

  Well, you also you design your life, right? You design your life based on the merger of your passion of skiing with art, right? And like, everything you do is sort of an expression of that. Absolutely. So on the on the macro schedule, you know, the macro level, you have that. And then all the way down to the micro with whatever Instagram you share or whatever is a reflection of that, which is pretty cool, right? That's an amazing way to live. That's that's incredible that you had that mentor who was able to see that.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:01:59Rich Roll?

  So he let you graduate?

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  He let me graduate.

• 1:02:00Rich Roll?

  You graduate. Okay. So this is like, kind of, this is what's swimming around in your mind the whole time, right? Merging these two worlds. And so you're trying to get into one of these movies. Like, how does that? How does that go down?

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  Okay, so that's a fun story. I was I was home for Christmas and I'm skiing every day with this incredible family, these two young girls every day from I have to be at their house by 7am to get them up to to take them skiing and we were not allowed to come home till four. So I've got to make skiing exciting all day. And that's another story in itself that Was a life changer, but um.

• 1:02:43Rich Roll?

  Just teaching or passing it on to to young people?

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Really having to having to be a role model all day. Um, the integrity that that requires, knowing that their eyes are on you all the time. And everything you say, you have to back up, you know, everything from making sure you're not a minute late in the morning to saying, no, you can't have sugar. That means I can't have sugar and uh, no, we have good attitudes out here. That means I have to have a good attitude all the time, you know, and how do I treat um, people in the lift line? Or how do I do, you know, can I park illegally? Not when they're watching, you know, so it's um, it doesn't sound like much, but it adds up throughout throughout a day of um, making sure you're not swearing and you know, um.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  You you never get a break to not hold yourself to the highest, your highest best self. Because it's for them. And after three weeks, uh, two weeks of being home for Christmas break, which was, I skied every day with them. Really, I call them my first sponsor because uh, that time helped me pay for my season. Um, working for them day and night, really, uh, and nannying for these girls. Uh, and and trying to figure out how to make skiing fun when they'd been out every day all week. So, so I've I've heard, I had heard that um, that Rosignol was in town that week

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  for a company meeting or something and and I literally hunted them down to see where they were meeting. And found out that they were at a local bar and I just showed up. And at the time I had been given a pair of skis by the team manager who, you know, he could send a thousand emails and he never responded to any of them. Uh, but I showed up and he and he fully embraced me with all these, you know, Frenchies from all over the world, really representatives of the brand. Rosignol is a prominent ski brand, if you haven't heard of it and uh, and made it seem like he had brought in one of his athletes, you know, like um, and uh.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, I got taken out to dinner and, you know, kind of put on the show. And then he's like, what do you want? And I'm like, I want to film. Like, can I go, I want to go film right now. And at the time, they were sponsoring Teton Gravity Research, TGR, which is one of the prominent film companies. And I'm like, I want to film for TGR. And so that night, he's like, well, you've got to take her back with you. He said that to one of the other athletes that he had brought in. And at that time, this guy was, you know, one of the classic partier, crazy guys. He had rented a Hummer to get there.

• 1:05:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  And so I packed everything up that, that night, like, ended up missing New Year's because it was like, I got my chance. And booked it to Jackson Hole.

• 1:05:48Rich Roll?

  Uh, and so, and so that was the first movie. Right? And so, did you do something, like, how did you put your stamp on it? Like, how did you, were you able to, like, do something that hadn't been seen before? Or present yourself in a way that was unique in relation to how things are typically done in these ski movies? Like, you know, or did that evolve over time?

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  I just, I had been, you know, visualizing and preparing for that moment for the last, it took two years to get there. I couldn't believe it. Two years is all, you know, from that moment I'm sitting at a desk to,

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  to, two years later, and I just knew that I was going to need to do something impressive. And that meant jumping off the biggest cliff I could find safely. And as a ski racer, I had been a downhill skier. I loved the airs. Mostly because everyone else got scared and I got excited. So as soon as I got to Jackson, it was, I was looking for a cliff. And I remember the very first day being taken out by one, one of the other athletes is still a great friend. His name is Schroder Baker. And him and the, one of the owners of the company, Todd Jones, and Todd.

• 1:07:08Speaker 01

  Said, you know, why don't you go hit that? And it was this, it's called Fat Bastard and it was a, it's like a sixty-five, seventy foot cliff.

• 1:07:19Rich Roll?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  That I didn't even, my eyes didn't even see as an option. And I remember looking up at it and being like, that?

• 1:07:30Rich Roll?

  Right, you'd never done anything that crazy.

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  Not even close. Um, and I mean, I'd hit big, big downhill jumps, but nothing, nothing even close. And Schroeder luckily stuck up for me and was like, dude, it's her first day. No, dude. Um, and then, so then we went to another one, which was probably like a, what is a good forty footer? And after looking at that first one, this one was like, nothing. And I hit it three times and all, um, hiking and they, they'd never seen a girl go that big from what they said. They were so excited. And for me, um, I was like, yes, this is what I've been.

• 1:08:08Rich Roll?

  I could do this all day.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:08:10Speaker 01

  Uh, uh, and, uh, then that night they had a big party. And, um, you know, skiers are partiers. And, uh, I was the only athlete that showed up that next morning. And, uh,

• 1:08:27Rich Roll?

  We were all too hungover.

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:29Rich Roll?

  So the production was ongoing, right? It was continuing.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, as long as the weather's good, you know, you're supposed to show up.

• 1:08:35Rich Roll?

  And no one could make it to the shoot?

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, except for, so it was me and, um, and the filmer. Uh, there was an intern that they made come out with us. And so in some, it, after a couple of days of, you know, hitting those cliffs, uh, this was by the third day. Uh, and I was pretty tired, but I wasn't aware of it. Um, and we had hiked up, uh, another big line and, and I fell at the bottom of it and I never fall. Which kind of told me like, I was tired.

• 1:09:08Rich Roll?

  Take a break.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  From, um, from, you know, days of, of hiking and stomping these big cliffs. You don't really recover all that quickly. Uh, and, and he wanted me, the, the filmer wanted me to, to go ski this line that just really didn't look good. And it, there had been an avalanche right next to it. So you could tell it wasn't the most stable snow. You could tell that it had, it was wind affected, just didn't feel right. And, um, long story short.

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  You know, we, the intern and I, hiked over to it and went to, it just didn't feel right, you know, and we went over the radio, um, you know, we're not, we're not into it, we're not gonna do that. And the filmer got so upset, um, like, ah, you know, all kinds of swear words, oh, go, go do that myself. Like, and I was so, um, I guess, young and didn't wanna lose my chance and be called a girl.

• 1:10:07Rich Roll?

  Yes, this is your big, this is your big chance and you're a woman and all of that.

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. And they had never, they'd never given a girl a chance. I mean, that was the thing is like, girls can't do this, like, women's skiing's boring. Um, I, you know, somebody did my team manager a favor to get me out there. And so I didn't wanna let anyone down. And I fully, you know, let my own intuition go and, um, I blew out my knee. And so I really only had a few shots, but, um, from those few days, but, and a year to think about screwing up.

• 1:10:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So, but you got in the movie.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  Got in the movie.

• 1:10:48Rich Roll?

  You learned a lesson. And then when that movie came out, did that change things for you? Or how did it go from there?

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  I think on the outside it did. I think, again, I'm sort of oblivious to the outside. I just felt like I had failed, uh, because I had only gotten in, you know, two days. But I guess it was enough to get on the map. Uh, yeah.

• 1:11:09Rich Roll?

  And so then you start getting booked in other movies. And then when does Warren Miller come knocking?

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  The next year.

• 1:11:15Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:11:17Rich Roll?

  And you made that dream happen.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:20Rich Roll?

  Where does the, um, like, the sense of, you know, sharing and advocacy start to, you know, come in by virtue of, you know, what you're doing on social media? And then we're gonna get to the movie that you made and all of that. Like, did you start to develop an awareness that like, what you were doing was meaningful for other young women? And that perhaps you had a message that could be empowering to, to girls?

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  Uh, I never saw it, like, to me, it was what?

• 1:11:54Speaker 01

  What did I need as a young girl? Like what, how could I be of service to, uh, to something that I, I didn't have? How, uh, and I think number one was seeing girls in the films, seeing that they could perform right alongside the guys. That was, that was for, and just to push your way in there, like, cause it's, it's not easy.

• 1:12:16Rich Roll?

  Right. And at some point, don't you end up like on the cover of, was it Powder Magazine?

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 1:12:22Rich Roll?

  That one magazine that you reached out to the intern that began the whole thing. And you were the first woman to be on the cover.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  So that was that fat bastard that, that, uh, that first day, um, that he had suggested that I couldn't even conceive of jumping off of it. And it took me three years, but, uh, but yeah, eventually, yeah, jumped off that one.

• 1:12:44Rich Roll?

  Right. And so first woman on the cover of that magazine, like you're breaking all these barriers, like at every stage, like just winning all those freestyle competitions, you know, being the first woman to, you know, start doing crazy stuff in these movies, the cover of the ma, you know, all this kind of stuff, right? So I would imagine like the community is taking notice of you and you're making an impact in terms of, you know, this sense of what women can and should be doing or shouldn't be doing, you know, kind of blowing that glass ceiling up.

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  That was my intention was to show what, what we were capable of. At the same time, I was also being used in marketing campaigns for the, the, you know, the, the curly hair and the smile shot, you know? So for example, I did that 65 foot air and then, uh, right after that for the camera did a, did a powder turn. And, uh, my sponsor at the time used the powder turn in their marketing that season, you know, for their main marketing. So once again, it was, the girl was still represented as the smiley powder turns gear. And I was pissed. I was like, wait, I just did something that.

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  Required a lot of me and you know, puts the brand in a position to say, you know, to show that girls are, can do this and they, they didn't see the value.

• 1:14:09Rich Roll?

  Right. It's all about the smile and you know, like that's great, but can you do it again in a bikini?

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  No, it was more like, uh, well, the audience doesn't care. Uh, the, the audience wants to see the product and they can't relate to that. Uh, what they can relate to is, you know, smiley powder turn. And I was like, ah, I was pissed. So I was like, at that moment was another one like, well, if I want to change this sport, I'm going to have to change it from the top.

• 1:14:37Rich Roll?

  Right. And I've heard you talk about, you know, the kind of pressure that you and others face, you know, especially, you know, this Instagram culture, right? It's all about how you look, you know, and there are these girls that have like massive followings because it's about, you know, it's about the butt or whatever. You know what I mean? There's no substance to it. And when you have sponsors who are paying for you, there's financially vested interests in, you know, growing your image and your profile. And I would imagine what comes with that is that whether it's explicit or implicit, you know, pressure to, hey, can you like, you know, show a little leg or, you know, do what these other girls are doing on some level. You could still be you. We don't want you to, we want you to be you,

• 1:15:19Rich Roll?

  but, but maybe like a little bit like this, right? And you've always like kind of toe the line like, no, I'm not doing that. That's not what I'm about. I'm about like, you know, courage, strength, integrity, empowerment, all of these things. And, and, and to do that would be to, you know, sort of be at odds with everything that you're about. But I would imagine it's, it's probably been, there's been times where that's been difficult to like, hold that place.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  This is the most difficult topic that I still don't have a, a solid stance on.

• 1:15:49Rich Roll?

  Right. And you'd be making a lot more money if you were like playing ball.

• 1:15:52Speaker 01

  I'm very aware that I could get a lot of likes and a lot of followers by, I mean, I have the photos I've done.

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  Bikini shoots, which is really fun. You know, there's a part of being feminine that I love, that I'm so honored that, um, you know, and I'm also an artist. I love the female body. I think it's beautiful. Like I, I think it's beautiful. I don't want to hide it. And so part of me, you know, I, uh, wants to express that. And then part of me wants to, is, is there to say, okay, but I'm really not here for myself. I'm here for, what is the greatest service for the, the young girl in me? What did she need to see?

• 1:16:31Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  Um, and

• 1:16:33Rich Roll?

  And that, that distinction between celebration and exploitation.

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Man, but it is tough some days. It is so tough. Even last year, uh, I had an opportunity to get a lot of money from, um, an alcohol campaign that I watched a lot of my, I guess, peers, um, take, take the gig. It was for three posts, you know, including this can of, and, uh, it would have been so easy and I couldn't do it. Um, and it's the same with like the sexy shots. Uh, you know, I still don't have a, a real answer for that. I'd love input on, from your readers or your followers, especially as parents, you know, how do we show young girls that they're, all the parts of them

• 1:17:22Speaker 01

  are beautiful and it's not just, uh, uh, looking a certain way, uh, but their courage and their excitement around anything, uh, without making it wrong. Right? So, uh, it's, it's a tough, it's a tough one.

• 1:17:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I think you've done a good job by just trusting your gut on that and your instincts. I mean, you know, in your heart of hearts, what's going to be okay? And, and, and what, what isn't?

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  To me, I'd say anything I actually do, you know, I, I, I wear a bikini to go surfing and to wakeboard and, and if I'm, you know, doing a sport like, sure.

• 1:17:59Rich Roll?

  Well, the word authenticity gets thrown around, you know, very casually. But it's true, you know, if it's authentic to who you are, if it's a natural expression of what you would be doing ordinarily, then I think it's okay. It's when it becomes artifice and there's some other kind of agenda that's built into that where it becomes, you know, uh, something else entirely. And I think, you know,

• 1:18:25Speaker 01

  What would you tell your daughter? You know, like, you know, she's got an opportunity to, to make a lot of money from, you know, um, a bra campaign, campaign, for example. What would you tell her?

• 1:18:39Rich Roll?

  What would I tell my daughter? I mean, first I would tell her that, um, that I love her no matter what choice she makes and that, um, hopefully she has enough self-esteem and enough sort of, um, connection with herself to know what the right answer is. I wouldn't tell her to do it or not, not to do it. I would tell her to trust herself and that whatever choice she makes is the right choice for her, but that it has to feel okay. And if there's any kind of queasiness or reservation about it, that she shouldn't do it and that those choices should not be made out of fear or a desire for money or out of a sense of people pleasing or trying to fit into somebody else's box.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  Well, I can tell you get a lot of attention and you feel really good. They make sure you feel really good, you know? You feel like a superstar.

• 1:19:32Rich Roll?

  I can't imagine to, I, I can't, you know, like, I can't imagine what that feels like, you know, because I'm, I'm not a woman and I'm not in that scenario. So it's gotta be difficult, especially, you know, you're just trying to like, you just want to ski, man, you know, and it costs money to ski and you gotta make a living. So on some level, like, you know, you have to be, you have to be a business person in the world.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  I think that's a lot of people's argument that are going that route right now. Oh, I want to ski, but I can get paid to take off my clothes.

• 1:19:58Rich Roll?

  But what do you stand for? And I think the difference between you and somebody else who just wants to ski is you have a message and that message is connecting and that message is more important than the other things that you are doing, like the impact that you're having on, uh, you know, other females and young girls in particular, is something that you have got to covet and protect above everything else. And to the extent that, You know, a sponsor's interest is going to infect that in a negative way. And then you have to be extra protective and careful about that.

• 1:20:32Speaker 01

  I really appreciate that because I've definitely lost opportunities because I just don't have the numbers that some, that some people have for even just the, the Instagram girl who's out there with just back, back to the camera, looking out at the lake, right?

• 1:20:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, it's like, yeah, if you start doing that, then maybe you, you blow up into half a million Instagram followers or a million or two million, but like, what is the value of that? And how do you feel when you put your head on the pillow at night? And what's more important? I think it's better to play the long game and to, you know, continue to walk forward with integrity. And the, what that will do is engender trust and fidelity with the people that are interested in your voice and your message. And they know that when they, you know, tap into your account, that they're getting the real you. And that's important. And that's much more important that how many people are following you. It's like, what is the legacy that you're leaving?

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  I just wish that I could tell girls, here's a way to do it and, and it works, you know? But I can't, I can't, I still don't know because it's changing all the time. And I would say that a lot of people have found a lot of success doing it the other way.

• 1:21:48Rich Roll?

  Right, but you have to do what's right for you. You know what I mean? And, and I would encourage you to continue to just do what you're doing. Like I watch all your stories and like, it's amazing in your Instagram stories. Like I'm getting a behind the scenes look at, it's basically your day, you know? But it's like, you're having a blast, you know? And you're with all these people and it's about community and it's about empowerment and it's about fun. And it's about embracing and enjoying the outdoors in a really tactile, profound way. It's not about like, you know, what outfit you're wearing or whatever, you know? Like that's beside the point. So you're, you're doing, you know, like, and it's, it's a harder road, you know? But it's a more valuable road. And I think it's a, it's, it's using these tools in a way that can have a positive impact

• 1:22:32Rich Roll?

  on, you know, the people that are, that are following you as opposed to just some kind of transactional, you know, relationship with your audience.

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  Well, thank you. I really appreciate that because I'm just usually by myself in the woods.

• 1:22:44Rich Roll?

  No, it's cool.

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  Feeling like I don't fit in.

• 1:22:46Rich Roll?

  I've been falling for years.

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  Talking to the trees.

• 1:22:48Rich Roll?

  You know, no, it's good. So let's shift gears a little bit here. I want to talk about the movie that you made. Pretty Faces. So tell me how that whole thing came about.

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  So, yeah, after 10 years of being in the film scene, I expected someone to make the film that was in my head because it seemed so obvious to me. And yeah, after 10 years.

• 1:23:10Rich Roll?

  And that film in your head was what?

• 1:23:13Speaker 01

  Just more real, more

• 1:23:17Speaker 01

  more the way I saw skiing. Not just the highlights, but the whole, the whole story of it.

• 1:23:25Rich Roll?

  And maybe it would be good to just articulate like, how do you see skiing, right? Like, let's get to the bottom of like, what it's all about for you.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  Well, the premise is the story of a skier girl. So my vision was from young to old, how a female, or really anyone encounters the mountains.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  And, and I never expected that it would be just a female movie. But, you know, this was a niche that I thought needed to be represented. So that, and in doing the research, 40% of, of people that watch ski movies are, are female. And yet there might be one female in the, in the premier ski and snowboard films. So that was kind of the, the premise that I built it on is that, hey, half of your audience is not being represented. And they want to see themselves reflected back. And I was kind of laughed at and told.

• 1:24:28Rich Roll?

  You're thinking like, they'll see it totally. And like, this will be no problem to get funded and made.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  No, actually, I've been hearing for years, you know, women's skiing is boring and no one wants to watch that. And women's skiing is a joke and.

• 1:24:43Speaker 01

  And yeah, I just felt like

• 1:24:44Rich Roll?

  And that's just like a reflection of the boys' club nature of this subculture?

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's just how it is.

• 1:24:50Rich Roll?

  Really dismissive.

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  It is. And that's why, but I've always, I, I think a lot of us are fueled on being told no and, and told that we can't. This was, I mean, that's why I hit a big cliff was to show that we could. And I know a lot of the females now are, are fueled by that, you know?

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  You know, girls don't trick, you know, it's a huge motivator for a lot of us being told what we can't do. So, uh, that was a big part of mine was, I'm not here for the, to try and fit in with the boys' club. I'm here to serve the, the young girls that need better role models. And also to say thank you to the sport that, that gave me so much, my confidence, my everything. Taught me everything. So, the vision that I had was, uh, just the fun parts. Gosh, I, I don't even know how I

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  just, I just wanted that authenticity to be there, the humanness, the thank you to our dads who taught us how to do it, um, and that brought us out there when we didn't want to be out there and, um, made it magical.

• 1:26:00Rich Roll?

  And to, and to shine a spotlight on your, your friends and your colleagues, the other females that, you know, share your perspective and your ethos and your love of skiing in the mountains.

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Honor these women that, that have made it on their talent, not on what they look like.

• 1:26:15Rich Roll?

  Right. And so you end up crowdsourcing this movie, right?

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:26:20Rich Roll?

  And, uh, and, uh, and you shoot it and you make it and you like edit it yourself. Like you spent like a whole, like you just locked yourself in a room with a couple of people and like edited this thing yourself?

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:26:33Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:26:34Rich Roll?

  That was, when was that? 2014?

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:26:36Rich Roll?

  Couple of years ago? Yeah, uh-huh. And Pretty Faces, it comes out and I've read a bunch of reviews. I apologize, I haven't seen it yet, but, the reviews were really good, right? Like you screened, you screened it at Mountain Film and like a bunch of festivals and?

• 1:26:52Speaker 01

  Actually, we took it on tour and

• 1:26:54Rich Roll?

  You did? Yeah, you did a tour. That's right.

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  I didn't expect, I didn't even know if anyone would come, right? So I only, uh, booked One theater, the first theater. And for some, it just, it took off and it won all kinds of awards and it sold out a hundred and fifty shows. And still gets requested and um, my intention was, was to create a piece that honored those that came before us. Um, and honored the, those that were su- charging now. That didn't necessarily have the big sponsor money, but also including, you know, the everyone. A- as many of us as possible to show just how many of us there were and that are.

• 1:27:38Rich Roll?

  And that experience of taking the movie around and touring with it, like what? Are there some memorable exchanges that you had with people that were impacted by the movie? Like what stands out?

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  Oh, it's just, it was so much fun. All the unicorns that showed up in costume, um, all the young girls.

• 1:27:55Rich Roll?

  Came out in unicorn costumes? Oh my god. Those are your fans.

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, the dads and the moms and, and all the moms that said, you know, we wished that we had this. Uh, we all, you know, the women that felt like they didn't have a community. They are, they had felt like outliers and that now this showed that there was, there was a community that loved this too. And there's still girls that live in mountain towns that, uh, you know, they're drawn there. I mean, it's becoming more and more. Popular to be the, be mountain, you know, be outdoorsy, right? This whole, it's, it's fully shifted. And, and now, you know, the nonprofit helps with connecting people in those transient towns that are looking for outdoor buddies.

• 1:28:41Rich Roll?

  Right, and we're gonna talk about that in a second, but you know, this, as you're describing that, I'm thinking. You know, about this boys' club, you know, ethos in this world in which you inhabit. Um, but when I kind of like poke around and, you know, read about the things that you've done and that you're doing, like. You had like really favorable sort of mainstream press that exists outside that subculture. Like Outside Magazine has always been like a big fan of yours and writes about you all the time, you know, is always like praising you. So it's like, you're getting the love, like. Maybe not with the Boys Club, or maybe that's changed, I don't know, but, but you know, the outside world is like taking notice of you.

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  It's so funny.

• 1:29:19Rich Roll?

  In a way that exists like, and that's way more powerful than whatever, like the couple people who like, you know, are tastemakers within that small community. Like if you can, your, your, your, your, your message is transcending that and impacting culture outside of that, which is really, that's the gift.

• 1:29:36Speaker 01

  Thank you again. Yeah. I mean, we're just, I think you always put yourself around people that make you are at the highest level, I think.

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. It's tough. The guys are, the guys are doing incredible things, right? And there's a lot of guys that, that deserve a lot of recognition that they might not be getting. And so there's, it's easy to get, to get hate, right? So I'm always trying to keep that in check.

• 1:30:02Rich Roll?

  But has that come around? Like, has that changed? Like now that you've made this movie and you're doing all these things, like, has that sort of perspective within the community, within that Boys Club? Has that shifted at all, or is that a static?

• 1:30:14Speaker 01

  I have no idea.

• 1:30:14Rich Roll?

  You don't know. You just do your thing.

• 1:30:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I really don't.

• 1:30:17Rich Roll?

  I like admire your, you're like blithe sort of naivete about these things. Like is that sort of feel, I feel like on some level, that's like your secret strength, you know, like not paying attention to all this stuff that other people get really caught up in.

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  I can feel jealousy and, and I, you know, no matter who you are, if you have, if you've found any sense of success, you know, there's going to be the shit talking that I, that you don't necessarily hear, but.

• 1:30:42Rich Roll?

  You don't get, are you like on the receiving end of a bunch of?

• 1:30:45Speaker 01

  I'm not at all. Not, not that I'm aware of. It's the, it's the behind your back stuff that your own, some of your own competition says, you know, or male or female, I still feel it.

• 1:30:58Speaker 01

  And it is what it is.

• 1:31:00Rich Roll?

  Right. All right. So let's talk about She Jumps, right? You started this nonprofit.

• 1:31:05Speaker 01

  I don't mean to talk about haters because I don't really, I really don't have any that I'm aware of. But you always know that, that they exist. And, uh, yeah.

• 1:31:14Rich Roll?

  You're better off. Don't pay attention to it anyway. Who cares?

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  I, I, I can't afford to.

• 1:31:19Rich Roll?

  All right. She, she jumps. So tell me about this nonprofit that you started. It's really cool.

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  She jumps. Uh, yeah, our mission is to increase participation in the outdoors of women through mentorship.

• 1:31:32Rich Roll?

  I love that. Can my daughter Mathis participate in this somehow?

• 1:31:36Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:31:36Rich Roll?

  She wishes. It's like, I love her to death, but I feel bad for her sometimes. I feel like she should have been born in like a ski town with a ski family. She just loves skiing. She just loves it. And I feel bad that we live in Southern California because if it was up to her, she would be up on a mountain every single day.

• 1:31:55Speaker 01

  That's so funny because I wished, I was so grumpy when I was little saying, God, why wasn't I born into the onto the beach community because I'm supposed to be a surfer, you know? So I can tell you that sometimes when you're, you're born away from it, it makes you appreciate it.

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  Even more, you know, East Coast skiers, for example, are some of the greatest lovers of skiing because they know they don't get it all the time.

• 1:32:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  So there's a value to all of it, right?

• 1:32:23Rich Roll?

  I get that.

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  But she can come visit.

• 1:32:24Rich Roll?

  So she's gonna, man, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make her go visit you.

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd love it.

• 1:32:29Rich Roll?

  All right, cool. But so tell me what you, what you guys do with, with she jumps.

• 1:32:34Speaker 01

  So we have all kinds of events. The program that we're most excited about right now is called Wild Skills, where we're utilizing, so we have two, two, three tiers of, um, I guess, participation. The, the first are recognizing those women that are doing incredible things and sharing their stories so that we all can be inspired by the, those at the highest level and, and sharing what they're doing to, to get it out there. Like I said, so that media, uh, so that it trickles down to where the young girls can be exposed to like, wow, she just climbed Everest, or she just skied this line.

• 1:33:13Speaker 01

  So recognizing what women are doing at the highest level. Then the second level is, is the community, finding other like-minded people to get outside with. So we have grassroots groups all over the country that just, you know, meet once a month to get outside. In all kinds of events from fly fishing to bike clinics to obviously skiing. And then the third is the never ever's and that's where our programming and our fundraising goes towards. And we utilize those top two tiers to coach for these events. We've got a couple of programs where we're fully outfitting girls and boys to take them skiing and coach them. But Wild Skills is our newest program. What we struggled with was with the mountains.

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  God, there's so much to so, so many costs, right? And it's inaccessible. So we needed a model that could be scalable. So we developed a program called Wild Skills where we were teaching four different skills. Navigation.

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  I like to call it fort building, but it's shelter building.

• 1:34:24Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:34:26Speaker 01

  Leave no trace protocol. And what's the fourth one? There's always an element of facing fear. So rock climbing or skiing or, you know, whatever we can, whatever physical event that we can get in there.

• 1:34:41Rich Roll?

  And the idea behind that is exposing like underprivileged kids that don't ordinarily have the ability or the access to do these things, right?

• 1:34:50Speaker 01

  Underprivileged and privileged. I think privileged kids need this stuff just as much as as underprivileged. That's what I'm finding. I mean, so many of the kids I grew up with, they had plenty of money, but they didn't have enough love. You know, they didn't have the big sister or the parents around. So we, everyone needed it, needs it. So yes, we make sure that, that the at-risk youth definitely have, there's, there's lots of opportunity for them as well as average girls.

• 1:35:20Rich Roll?

  Right. That's beautiful. That's really cool. So how many, how many people like work for the organization? And how, how do you structure all that? That's, that's very enterprising.

• 1:35:30Speaker 01

  We really have only one paid position and that's our director. And then everything else is volunteer. And, you know, of course we have a board and.

• 1:35:40Rich Roll?

  Right. And where would you like, like, where's all this going for you? Like, do you, do you have like, and I, I get the sense that like, you're not somebody who sits down and writes out the five-year plan, like you're going with the flow and you're following your heart and your muse. And that's been a trusted, you know, sort of

• 1:36:00Rich Roll?

  true north for you and has led you.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  It's my only choice.

• 1:36:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's like it's led you by, by like trusting that by having faith in your own personal voice. It's allowed you to kind of blossom into this person and, and, and provided you this life that you always wanted, right? So, and that's inspiring, you know, that's, that's inspiring because I think a lot of people are afraid of that. There's a lot of uncertainty that comes with that.

• 1:36:24Speaker 01

  That's the trade-off.

• 1:36:25Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:36:25Speaker 01

  It is not easy.

• 1:36:26Rich Roll?

  You have to learn to live with that, right?

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, it's tough. You, you don't know if you're gonna, you know, have a job next year. Uh, and so it, it takes an active, um, you have to be very, I have to be very active in staying in, in my highest potential. And that means staying in those activities, uh, that, that keep that fire, I guess. Light me up. And I've actually been thinking about that a lot. And I don't know if I'm, I don't have an agent or anything like that to tell me, like to advise me on what I'm supposed to talk about or not. But I've been writing a book.

• 1:37:07Rich Roll?

  Oh, cool.

• 1:37:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like halfway done. And, uh, I don't know, you would tell me, am I, is that something I should talk about or not until it's done?

• 1:37:15Rich Roll?

  You could talk about it. You're on the hook now. It's good. Now you're accountable.

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I'll do it no matter what, because it's, it's, it's what I realized was what I was using to navigate. And it's been about fun. And, uh, I mean, it's, it's called the Unicorn Handbook.

• 1:37:32Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh.

• 1:37:33Speaker 01

  And it's the value of fun and the value of, of play. Um, and there's some research on it, but it's never been all put in one place.

• 1:37:44Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:37:45Speaker 01

  So that's what I'm playing with.

• 1:37:46Rich Roll?

  That's really cool. That's awesome. How close are you to being done with it?

• 1:37:51Speaker 01

  It feels like, you know, it feels like halfway.

• 1:37:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:55Speaker 01

  But I I've never done this before, so I I I'm very aware that there's rewrites.

• 1:38:00Rich Roll?

  Are you are you doing it? Do you have a publisher or you're just doing it on your own?

• 1:38:03Speaker 01

  I just wanted it again, it was kind of my own, um, like just writing down my own, my own values and my own like navigation, even just for myself to remember, like, oh, when you get stuck, what do you do? When you get scared because you, I don't know what's gonna happen next year, like what what are the

• 1:38:25Speaker 01

  the go tos that help me, you know, move through that? Um, and I would say it's breath and it's movement and it's what feels fun and how can I make this playful? Uh, and when I get into the, when I use those strategies, um, there's always a shift.

• 1:38:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's cool. Do you have, um, like, who are your mentors? Do you have people that like you turn to for counsel or, you know, maybe somebody that is in the culture that we know of that you sort of aspire to their way of living? Or you just, you're just doing your thing?

• 1:39:02Speaker 01

  I think I'm still searching for that role model who I want to be like. Uh, and I'm, I'm really sensitive. I mean, there's a reason I I I would look up to Julie because she's really speaking some truths that I can feel that, uh, that I think all of us struggle to talk about. Um, so I'd say she's one of them.

• 1:39:22Rich Roll?

  Right. Oh, that's cool.

• 1:39:29Speaker 01

  This is gonna sound weird, but the more courage I get, the more I'm willing to say I actually am recognizing that I

• 1:39:38Speaker 01

  I don't even, I can't believe I'm, it's gonna sound so cheesy, but, um, I represent the planet. I'm the marketing team for her, for the earth.

• 1:39:49Rich Roll?

  There's nothing cheesy about that. That's beautiful.

• 1:39:52Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I mean, she's, she's, uh, she's the thing that, um, nourishes me. And I, like, like I said, when I'm, when I was sitting in that beautiful, um,

• 1:40:06Speaker 01

  job i- in a building, I, I, I can't even run on pavement.

• 1:40:13Speaker 01

  So I have to honor that. And, uh, I just came back from the rainforest and, uh, it was, it's never been so clear.

• 1:40:22Rich Roll?

  So when somebody says, what do you do? You can say, I'm an ambassador for the planet.

• 1:40:27Speaker 01

  I work for her.

• 1:40:28Rich Roll?

  I work for her.

• 1:40:29Speaker 01

  I'd love to say I work for the rainforest. I, I work for, I work for the planet. I work for the good of, of the next generation who needs, uh, a change in how we educate our kids. And not we educate, but we allow them to educate us because they're bringing the solutions. If we can just empower them to have the courage to share it instead of forcing them to fit into the box that we want, you know, we, I want to create those structures that allow them to bring the answers because we need some solutions.

• 1:41:05Rich Roll?

  When you talk to young girls and maybe young girls who are in search of inspiration or mentorship, like, what is it that you communicate? Like, what is the message that you're imparting?

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  I don't, I'm not trying to impart a message. I'm just trying to show them how rad they are. So that they start to see their own magic and start to listen and start to believe in it.

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  Because we have our own magic.

• 1:41:33Speaker 01

  I've been thinking about it even for your listeners. Um, it's like, we're the ones, we, we're the ones we've been waiting for.

• 1:41:40Rich Roll?

  That's what Julie says all the time.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  I, I really believe that. And, and we have, we have what we need. We think we need to make more money or know more important people or, or be more educated. But the thing is, if we're, if anyone who's listening to you, we, We have it because because we care about this stuff. It means that

• 1:42:07Speaker 01

  we're part of the solution. And I I've been wondering how to motivate that. And I kind of want to be, I want to use what worked for me, which which was like, oh, well, you probably can't. There's probably nothing you can do. So maybe we'll just, yeah, you probably, you can't do that.

• 1:42:26Rich Roll?

  In other words, meaning when you're told you can't do something, that's what motivates you to do it?

• 1:42:30Speaker 01

  I hate to admit it, but, but yeah.

• 1:42:32Rich Roll?

  Not everyone's like that, though. Some people like take that to heart and they get defeated.

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  Well, I would say that anyone that is listening to this podcast is so, we're the ones, we're the ones. I can feel it like

• 1:42:47Speaker 01

  we care and there's more of us than than I think at some level, we all feel, I know I've felt like, what can I do? But I'm just one person and and I don't have enough money or influence or education. But what Sitting in the Rainforest did was tell me that what so my nonprofit, our motto is what would you dare? What would you dare to attempt if success were the only outcome? If it really think about that for a second, what would you dare to attempt if success were guaranteed? And that's what has led us for for this long.

• 1:43:30Speaker 01

  But it's been, you know, fif- fifteen years or I, we've been incorporated for ten years. And now I've changed the motto to be, what would you dare to attempt even in the face of failure? What sounds so fun that even just trying it might be worth it? And for me, when I was young, I wanted to save the rainforest. And but it seemed so daunting and no one took it seriously. I was in third grade, I was having bake sales. And I didn't even know how to cook, you know, like selling uncooked cookie dough to my friends and sending money to go save the whales or the rainforest. And um, and when I looked around at that time, I was, I was certain of what I was going to do. I was going to go into politics and go save the rainforest.

• 1:44:15Speaker 01

  But when I really looked into it, I, it seemed like politics led to.

• 1:44:24Speaker 01

  Down a path that I would get lost. It seemed like you had to play a dirty game to get anything done there. And I didn't think I had the strength to face that. And then when I really looked at the problem environmentally, I know I took this off course, but

• 1:44:39Rich Roll?

  No, it's good. Keep going. You're on a roll. Keep going.

• 1:44:43Speaker 01

  I couldn't find a solution. When it came down to it, no amount of awareness was going to change that decision when a family at the edge of the forest has to decide between cutting down another hectare of forest in order to feed their family versus doing the right thing, right? In our case. And so I didn't, I felt like it was a losing battle. And so I got distracted in other things, primarily skiing, right? And coming back from the rainforest a couple of weeks ago, my new motto is like, what would I be willing to fail for? You know, what would be so great that even just one thing a day in service

• 1:45:25Speaker 01

  to this mission? You know, I held this goal of skiing for a living or skiing that people told me that it was impossible, right? And at the time, it was impossible. There weren't girls doing it. And just by holding that vision, I created it. And I never imagined that I could. And no one around me did either. And then a few years later, created a film that everyone said that

• 1:45:53Rich Roll?

  They'll never be able to do that.

• 1:45:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, who would watch that? And then, so those two things, I mean, it's skiing that has shown me that the impossible is possible. And so if I'm willing to actually use what that's taught me, then the next one is the rainforest.

• 1:46:09Rich Roll?

  Well, that's great. I mean, skiing is the love, but skiing is also the vehicle for the message, right? It's not skiing in and of itself. It's

• 1:46:19Speaker 01

  It's a metaphor.

• 1:46:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:46:21Speaker 01

  And it's the teacher. And it's, yeah.

• 1:46:24Rich Roll?

  And that can continue to evolve for you. You're not a static being.

• 1:46:28Speaker 01

  None of us are, yeah.

• 1:46:30Rich Roll?

  That's really beautiful. Well, we gotta wrap it up here.

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:46:32Rich Roll?

  Um, it's Jai's birthday, so I gotta get to her birthday party. But that was beautiful and thank you. It's a blessing to, it's a blessing to be able to talk to you. And I always like to end this with, you know, maybe some words of wisdom that you can impart to, you know, the young woman that is listening, who is struggling. Maybe she's still in the cubicle and can't find her way out and isn't in a place where, you know, she feels like that idea of what would be so amazing that you'd be willing to fail for it doesn't feel like a, a, a reality for her. Like, how do you break somebody out of their routine? And, you know, inspire or provide them with the tools to, you know, perhaps

• 1:47:17Rich Roll?

  redirect their trajectory towards a more meaningful, playful existence that

• 1:47:23Rich Roll?

  can, you know, touch the outer boundaries of what you've experienced.

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  Uh, well, I've, I've definitely learned that we truly do only have right now. So what sounds fun right now? What's the next fun thing? Uh, and just go do that. That's it.

• 1:47:39Rich Roll?

  Don't overcomplicate it.

• 1:47:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, that's the way I've been living, uh, and so far, so good. And then I also want to recognize you for saying, and just say, thank you for creating a place that, that guys can look to for a role model. I think as hard as it is for women to find role models right now, it's, it's, it might be more difficult for men to find decent guys to look up to, uh, for everything that you represent. Spiritual, spirituality, health, how you deal in a relationship, how, how, how do you follow your own passions and be a dad? Like, so I would say thank you and to, to, to any, any guys out there that, that are walking that walk, whether you're a dad

• 1:48:24Speaker 01

  or whether you're just, whether, all of it. I, we need real men. We need you so, it's, it's so hard to be a guy these days.

• 1:48:35Rich Roll?

  I appreciate you saying that. Thank you. That's beautiful. All right. Well, let's close it down. How do you feel?

• 1:48:43Speaker 01

  I feel like I have, that's like the old story, right? I'm like, I want to talk about now.

• 1:48:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, we come back, finish your book and we'll come and come back and we'll pick it up where we left off.

• 1:48:56Speaker 01

  Fair enough.

• 1:48:56Rich Roll?

  Is that a deal?

• 1:48:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, fair enough.

• 1:48:58Rich Roll?

  All right, cool.

• 1:48:58Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:48:59Rich Roll?

  All right, Lindsay Dyer, she's awesome and you're going to want to check her out online. So the best places to do that are LindsayDyer.com, L-Y-N-S-E-Y, no D, right? D-Y-E-R.

• 1:49:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, Unicorn Technique is, is something, is the place right now.

• 1:49:18Rich Roll?

  And what about SheJumps.org?

• 1:49:20Speaker 01

  And SheJumps.org.

• 1:49:21Rich Roll?

  And you can check out Pretty Faces, the film, it's on Vimeo, right? Like you can pay five bucks to watch it or something like that? Is that how it works?

• 1:49:27Speaker 01

  And iTunes.

• 1:49:28Rich Roll?

  And iTunes, cool. So check out the movie, follow Lindsay online on Instagram, it's the same on Instagram and Twitter. She's awesome.

• 1:49:36Speaker 01

  Wow, thanks.

• 1:49:37Rich Roll?

  And yeah, we need more powerful, kick ass women like yourself. And I will continue to do my part to try to shine a spotlight on those like yourself. But I think we can all do that in our own lives in a certain way by just recognizing that there are powerful, amazing women all around us doing amazing things. And we will all be benefited and our daughters will be benefited by celebrating them. So that's my call to action to everybody who's listening. Thanks for talking to me.

• 1:50:08Speaker 01

  Peace.

• 1:50:09Rich Roll?

  Plants. You did it.

• 1:50:14Rich Roll?

  All right, we did it. Hope you guys enjoyed that. She's such a cool person, really delighted to be able to share that conversation with Lindsay, with you guys. So please take a moment, track her down on Instagram, give her a shout out and let her know what you thought of today's episode. Listen, I've written a whole bunch of books, not a whole bunch, I've written two, Finding Ultra, The Plant Power Way. Julie just came out with This Jesus Nuts. All of these books and this whole podcast and basically everything I do is about helping people transition to a healthier way of eating and living. And despite all of these offerings, I still get emails almost every single day from people like, I'm ready. To try this, I want to try this plant-based thing, or maybe I just want to get more plants on my plate.

• 1:50:57Rich Roll?

  I'm not sure how to do it, and I can point people to these books or to various websites. But the truth is, people really are looking for, based upon the feedback that I'm getting, tools that they can access easily that make this transition process, or this acclimation, or this learning curve of incorporating more plants onto their plate, a little bit easier. And so that's why we created this meal planner product for you guys for just a dollar ninety a week. It provides you with everything that you need so that you can get on a better trajectory and stay on it. Access to thousands of plant-based recipes, unlimited meal plans, unlimited, and grocery lists. Everything is totally personalized and customized based on your specific individual goals.

• 1:51:41Rich Roll?

  What are your food preferences? What do you like? What do you not like? What are you allergic to? What are your time constraints? What's your budget? All of that gets baked into this algorithm that helps to provide you with everything that you would like, that you would prefer, that's going to work within the construct of your life to make this easier. It's just a super powerful tool. We have amazing customer support from a team of experts. We have grocery delivery in 22 metropolitan areas via Instacart. So essentially, you make these grocery lists, and then all the groceries just get delivered, and you have the recipes. So, everything you need to make this work, and also, most importantly, to make it stick. To find out more, go to meals.richroll.com,

• 1:52:23Rich Roll?

  or click on Meal Planner on my website. You can find it there at the top. Again, just a dollar ninety a week. I mean, if you lost a dollar ninety a week in your couch, you probably wouldn't even notice. So essentially, the entry cost to this incredible wealth of information is almost nominal, and that's what I'm most proud about, to be able to provide this incredibly robust service at such a low-cost entry point. So, anyway. Check it out. Really proud of it. If you would like to receive a free weekly email from me, a send went out supposedly every Thursday. It's called Roll Call. I've missed the last two weeks and I'm apologizing for that right now. The first one was supposed to go out when I was in Ireland and I just, I was so consumed by the retreat, I just

• 1:53:06Rich Roll?

  couldn't break away to take care of this. And then this week, getting back into the flow, I missed it again. So, look, I'm human. You know, I just, I don't know what to tell you. I'll be back with it this week for sure. I've got all kinds of articles that I've backlog that I'm ready to share with you guys. But essentially, it's a free weekly email that I just share five or six things that I've come across over the course of the week. Usually articles, documentary, product I'm enjoying, just something that I thought was interesting, inspiring, helpful, and the like. There's no affiliate links. I'm not trying to make any money off this, just good information. So if that sounds cool to you, you can subscribe to it just by providing me your email address. And you can do that in multiple places across my website. And when you're on my website, we have all kinds of cool products, signed copies of all our books, Finding Ultra, The Plant

• 1:53:51Rich Roll?

  Power Way, This Cheese Is Not. We've got t-shirts, we've got tech tees, we've got just some good merch to fuel your plant-powered lifestyle. And yeah, good stuff. I want to thank today's sponsors, Bowl and Branch, the first honest and transparent bedding company that only uses sustainable and responsible methods of sourcing and manufacturing. Go to bowlandbranch.com today for $50 off your first set of sheets by typing in the promo code RICHROLL at checkout. And Harry's, a superior shave at an affordable price. Friends of the Rich Roll Podcast, that's this podcast that you're listening to, can visit harrys.com/roll to redeem your free trial set, which comes with a razor, five-blade cartridge, shaving gel, and post-shave gel.

• 1:54:36Rich Roll?

  All you gotta do is pay shipping. harrys.com/roll. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering and production. Shawn Patterson for help on graphics. I get a lot of messages from people saying, "How do you do those amazing motion graphics on Instagram?" Well, that's Shawn. He's an artist. Beautiful work that he does, and I'm very grateful to have his support. And theme music, as always, by Analema. Thanks for the love, you guys. Have a great week. See you back here soon. Peace and plants.