Science Friday
Hosted by Flora Lichtman and Ira Flatow
The Artemis II crew took photos of the far side of the moon with handheld cameras. A science team on Earth had plenty of requests.
4,027 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
WNYC Studios is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at O D O O dot com. That's O D O O dot com.
Science Friday is supported by Mathworks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink software for technical computing and model-based design. Mathworks, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at mathworks.com.
WNYC is supported by Bear. Science is about asking questions, testing, trying again. It's not easy, but it's relentless. It evolves, and that's why science delivers. Learn more at sciencedelivers.com.
Hey, it's Flora, and you are listening to Science Friday. When astronauts are in orbit, most of the messages from Earth come from a person in a role called Capcom. They're often an experienced astronaut serving as the capsule communicator. But sometimes during the recent lunar flyby of Artemis II, the conversations from Mission Control came from another desk, one labeled "science." If you tuned into the livestream during the lunar flyby, like we did, obviously, you probably saw my next guest seated, or sometimes excitedly, standing at that desk in Mission Control. Dr. Kelsey Young is the Artemis Science Flight Operations Lead for NASA's Science Mission
Directorate, and she headed up the lunar science observations and photography for the Artemis II mission. Hey, Kelsey, thanks for coming on the show.
Thanks for having me. You can't see me, but I'm smiling ear to ear right now.
Have you come down to Earth yet?
I will be honest, I'm a big post-processor. So I don't think I've quite gotten enough space from the experience to truly process things, but I can tell you that things have not died down. We're working on processing all the data that we got from Artemis II while also looking to the future and starting planning for Artemis III and IV.
Yeah, give me a sense of the scale of the data. Like, is it just images? And how much do you still have to process?
Oh, my gosh, there is so much data. And I mean that in the best possible way. We do have four different types of data. We do have the crew images, of course. That's by far the largest data set, as you might imagine. We also have a few crew annotations. So they had the ability on their crew tablets to like literally, you know, with a stylus, like annotate on pictures of the moon to say, I saw this here. And then there were photos and videos taken with the vehicle-mounted cameras outside of the, you know, the crew cabin. We also have crew audio files, which is a data set that is just rich with science return. And we're so excited now that we've started to dive into those. We also have-
Wait, like voice memos, Kelsey? Like, what are they?
Yeah, like literally voice memos. And that was actually our highest priority data set for the mission for lunar science because of the unique mission profile of having human beings looking at the moon from the vantage point that they did have it. And actually giving their, you know, nuanced color observations, albedo observations, lighting observations. And all of those data are contained in those audio files.
Why are the verbal observations so important? I mean, do the astronauts' perception of what they're seeing tell us something different from just a raw image from a DSLR camera?
So cameras are really amazing. They take pictures that are so incredibly valuable scientifically. Human eyes are able to provide, you know, something on top of that, though. They have the ability, human eyes, to see, just in the literal blink of an eye, to really capture color nuance that images you might have to, you know, really understand what's there to pull out. And so an example of that would be, of course, Apollo 17 astronaut Jack Schmidt describing the orange soil discovery on one of his spacewalks during the mission. And he saw this, you know, you hear it in his voice. He's like, "Orange soil, oh, my gosh." And he ultimately collected that sample because he saw that color nuance and took that sample back.
And then ultimately, that sample helped us understand something about how recently volcanic activity existed on the moon, which is- Which was a new, you know, scientific discovery. But when you look at the pictures from his suit-mounted camera, that orange does not pop out. So it's it's not perception, it's reality. And we worked with them to really hone their toolkit for how to give descriptions so that we could understand what they were seeing. It's something that orbiting spacecrafts are not able to provide. And it can help the next orbiting spacecraft by saying, hey, crew observed these things in these areas. Hey, science community, is this a value? Want to go follow up?
When you went in, was there, did you have a shot list? And how did you pick it?
Oh, yeah. We had this this tool that members of our team developed called the Lunar Targeting Package. It starts with a list of targets on the lunar surface, so features on the lunar surface, that was encompassing of all 360 degrees of the lunar surface. And so we have this this really long list of over 150 targets that encompasses the entire moon. Okay, so then we're getting close to a launch window. You know, here it is, April 1st is coming up. Now let's do an initial pass, right? Like, let's do an initial sort of down select. And the way we do that is we have 10 lunar science objectives for the mission based on, you know, what are the communities driving lunar science questions?
And, okay, what is the Artemis 2 mission profile uniquely able to contribute? Because, of course, we do have LRO. We do have other, you know, other payloads, other instruments, other spacecraft. But what can Artemis 2 contribute?
Were there people on your team who were like fighting for one target over another? Were people like, no, we must have this?
Kind of, yeah. So we had 10 objectives, as I said. And so we had kind of a group, you know, we we just have an amazing lunar science team. Oh, my gosh, I could talk about them for way more time than you have. But for actual operations, we were kind of, you know, divided across two rooms and multiple shifts. And we did have roles on the team that were staffed by, you know, lunar scientists whose job it was to advocate for specific ones of those 10 lunar science objectives. We called them theme leads. And so somebody might be a theme lead for volcanic history, and someone else might be a theme lead for photometry or for color. And they had to kind of like Very respectfully and politely duke it out, to make sure that that down select of lunar targets
covered the entirety of our science objectives. We didn't want to go too heavy into one objective at the expense of a couple others. So it really was about ensuring broad spread and covering all of our bases.
Were people giving you boxes of chocolates, Kelsey?
Well, I was actually out of that process. That was our team that did that because I was on console, of course, in the front room. So I have two deputies on the team. And one of them, Jacob Richardson, was the targeting lead. So it was him. And you'll have to ask him if he got any boxes of chocolate.
So during the mission, you are hearing the descriptions of what the astronauts are seeing, but you're not actually seeing the images, right? In real time?
We are not seeing the images. We were seeing what you guys saw watching at home, which was that live feed from the vehicle-mounted GoPro cameras. We also created these high-resolution visualizations of what the crew would be seeing. That is, of course, not reflective of the real moon that they were seeing. But we could at least say, OK, this is where they are in the flyby. This is the angle of the sun versus the spacecraft to put ourselves a little bit in the minds of what the crew were seeing. And it helped us just stay in sync on which part of the flyby they were executing when.
Was it a tease, though? Were you like, I'd like to see it for myself?
I mean, you guys heard it. How amazing are these four people and their ability to communicate what they were seeing?
They were really good. They were really good at that.
I wish I could just watch a livestream 24/7 of them describing the moon because it's so great.
There is a reality TV show possibility for that, I'm sure. You know, one of the things that got a ton of attention, and I remember seeing it on social, were the impact flashes. And I might have been watching you, actually. Were you the one who was talking to the astronauts at this time when they saw them?
I sure was.
OK, so I remember this very specifically because I saw your face light up like a light bulb. Your jaw drops. And you're like, you can just see this huge reaction from you. Why were you excited about that?
Yep, that was me.
That was, what you saw was a genuine human moment. And, you know, one of our 10 objectives that I keep talking about, it was impact flash investigations. You know, impact flashes, looking for impact flashes. And what those are, is, you know, literally like very small particles impacting lunar surface, and it literally creates like an extremely transient, like really, really quick, very bright flash.
And when you say small particles, how small?
Like centimeters to inches.
No, stop it.
Really?
Well, in this case, they were. I mean, because we can kind of back that out from the descriptions the crew gave that you all heard. And you can have bigger impacts as well, but we think these were, were pretty, pretty small.
So, obviously, the likelihood, it seems like an odds thing, right? Like, what's the likelihood that that's gonna happen while astronauts have eyeballs on the moon? Right? Is that why it was so cool?
Yes, you hit the nail exactly on the head of my surprised face. So, you know, we had conversations, certainly, of course, for months and months on our team of like, are we gonna see any? And so, of course, team members had different predictions, you know, for if we would see any, and if so, how many. I did not. So what you saw was reflective of my, like, complete shock that they saw any, and that they saw multiple.
Nice to be wrong, in this case, Kelsey. Yeah. Why are impact flashes interesting scientifically? Like, why do we care about a centimeter big piece of dust hitting the moon?
A few reasons. First of all, it helps us characterize the modern lunar environment, right? So like, what is happening at the surface of the moon? But also, it helps us, you know, cratering is a really, I did my PhD on impact cratering, so I will try to not dive too deep into this, pun intended. But impact cratering is a really important process because of a few reasons. One, it can bring material up from depth, so it can expose... Rocks from deeper in the surface on, you know, bring them to the surface, obviously not for tiny impact craters that are that, you know, are formed from these centimeter size impacts, but larger craters can suck stuff up from depth that is kind of like a geologist's cheat code, right? Because otherwise, how are you going to get it?
How are you going to access that part of lunar history if it's buried beneath the surface? But impact craters can do our work for us, right? Of bringing the material to the surface. It can also transport material like long ways across the lunar surface. And so cratering has played such a pivotal role in the evolution of the moon and the evolution of our own planet. And there's still scientific value in understanding cratering rates and how they have changed over time, what they're like today, and how it, you know, sort of touches other active lunar surface processes.
Okay, I have to ask, why was the imaging done by human beings squinting through the tiny windows with DSLRs versus mounting some array with a billion cameras that are just programmed to take images all the time?
Oh, it's a great question. And that's a really great way to ask the question. And, you know, I think LRO, you know, is an example of an orbiting spacecraft that has incredible payloads on it that are have returned.
We're already doing that, is what I'm hearing.
Exactly. We're already doing that, and it's been super amazing. One of my favorite LRO fun facts is we actually, because of an instrument on LRO called Lola, the it's a laser altimeter instrument, we actually know the topography of the moon better than we know the topography of the Earth.
Wow.
Yeah. The Earth has oceans and vegetation and cities and all that. And this laser altimeter has returned enough data that we we know the precise topography of lunar surface down to like a staggering resolution. I just think that that is frankly inspiring. Human beings are amazing and what they can create is amazing. But Artemis is interesting because, again, you have the the human, the the field scientist, and they're taking pictures for a reason. They choose to image features the way that they do because they understand our science objectives and they're making observations with their eyes. So the pictures tell the story of their field expedition. And so right now, our lunar science team is deep, deep, deep in the sauce of taking
those verbal descriptions of which there are ours, right? And then Fitting the pictures into that overall story. And that is how we developed the science plan and how we ran the mission. But, you know, we're going to be releasing in the next few months, like, all of these data to the public. And I can't wait to see what the community does with it, right? Because they, I mean, who knows, right? There's, I've already heard some ideas from the community, but once we get those data out there, I have no doubt that we're about to see some amazing science return.
We need to take a quick break, but when we come back, can I ask you just a few questions about how you became a moon scientist at NASA?
I'd love to, yeah.
Okay.
WNYC Studios is supported by Wise. Wise, the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the world. With a Wise account, you can send, spend, and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Be smart, get wise. Download the Wise app today. Terms and conditions apply.
We know life is busy. That's why saving money should be effortless. With Atlantic Union Bank's Roundup Savings, every time you use your debit card, your purchase rounds up to the nearest dollar and automatically goes into savings. So whether you're grabbing coffee, filling the tank, or picking up groceries, you're saving without even thinking about it. It's just one of the ways Atlantic Union Bank makes managing your money easy. Learn more at atlanticunionbank.com or stop by a branch today. Atlantic Union Bank, any way you bank.
Is your heating and cooling system getting old? Did it struggle through the summer? Don't wait for it to leave you out in the cold this winter. Call James River Air and ask how you can get a new system for as little as $99 a month. That's just $3 a day. That's less than your coffee house coffee. Now through October, get up to $3,000 off with rebates and special financing. Call or visit jamesriverair.com and get back to comfort.
Support for Science Friday comes from Science Sandbox, an initiative of the Simons Foundation.
Kelsey, your job sounds awesome. Did you apply for it? How did you get there?
I don't think I've been asked it directly like that. I love that.
Specifically for me, you know, this was the first time we were doing a lot of this. And right, it was obviously a test flight in many ways. It was the first crewed flight of the Orion vehicle. It was the first time crew launched on a, you know, on the SLS, you know, rocket assembly. We were, you know, doing a whole bunch of developmental flight test objectives to characterize vehicle performance and all that. But scientifically, it was also the first time human eyes saw certain parts of the far side. It was the first time we were integrating and implementing our brand new structure for supporting, you know, our lunar science and geology objectives. So we had a brand new console position for the first time. We had two separate lunar science backrooms that had been developed from scratch and were in use for the first time. Like, we were doing all this for the first time.
Does that mean you invented the role?
Yes. That's what I was going with that. So it was my job to basically develop this structure from the ground up. And therefore, I couldn't apply for it because we were, you know, developing it as we were going.
Wow. That's so gratifying.
It was absolutely, certainly the most gratifying part of my career so far.
If you could have been on that flight yourself, would you have gone?
No. I'm, I'm, I feel like I'm where I'm meant to be.
Really? Have you ever dreamed of being an astronaut?
Yes. I have applied before. I will not apply again. I love the role that I have of working with the science teams on Earth to like, put together our ops plan and ops structure. I feel that I'm like, well positioned within, within, you know, flight operations to really make an impact for integrating science, you know, weaving it into the fabric of flight operations to make sure that not only can we maximize, you know, science return from these missions, but that we do so while always, always, always prioritizing crew and vehicle safety. And I think I've found like, a little niche for myself and I'm just so happy here.
What do you think is the most important skill for your job?
I mean, I just, I get so much out of working in operations. It just like fits with the way my brain works, which is like maximizing efficiency, packaging comms, you know, like just squeezing every little, like finding every little corner that we can use to like kind of maximize science return. I think it just takes like kind of an agile and flexible mind that is okay operating in the unknown.
Hmm. I mean, are you the kind of person that has spreadsheets for like your home life?
I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, lists, spreadsheets, the whole nine. Fortunately, my husband is kind of the same way, so it's a good fit.
I think I've heard you mention that you have two young kids. Did you share the mission with them and what was their take?
I do have two young kids. They're two and four, so they're a little too young to kind of like really sort of get into it, especially the two-year-old, of course. But they, they did, I was getting sent pictures from home during the mission of them like watching me on TV and I, that I was very emotional seeing those pictures. Especially the two-year-old now, like she'll walk outside and like she'll see the moon at night and she'll just, even before I do, and she'll just scream, "Moon!" and like aggressively point at it. It's the cutest thing. So I think, I don't know, I think they're starting to grasp it. I mean, if, just to get, you know, a little, little deep for a second, you know, I think it's really hard traveling so much. I mean, I, I travel just an absolute ton for work and it's hard to be away from kids, especially at that age, as I'm sure many of your listeners can appreciate. But I, I just really hope, and I believe that, you know, when they get a little older
and understand the impact, they'll understand, you know, why and that I did so to, you know, prioritize them and also show them, you know, what I do and show its importance and show, you know, frankly, you know, women in science and engineering fields going out and, you know, pursuing something that I really believe in.
And leading it and being a badass. Man, it's just bad.
Yeah, it's hard, but it's definitely worth it. I was way too busy before the mission to even think about just like the day-to-day and how it would reach the public. I mean, one of the main reasons I do this is to inspire the next generation. But I'll be honest, like the reception that we have gotten, like far exceeded even my wildest imaginations, like the number of messages. That both me and, and you know, people across the mission have gotten of not just the astronauts, but, but having kids at home see people supporting the mission on the ground, like engineering, flight control, science, and having kids be excited about that, like not just being the person going and doing it, but the person supporting the mission. That's going to be, I think, the biggest thing I take out of this experience.
Dr. Kelsey Young is the Artemis Science Flight Operations Lead for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, and she's based at the Goddard Space Flight Center in Maryland. Kelsey, thank you so much for being here. This was great.
Thanks for having me. I could talk to you all day.
Likewise. This episode was produced by Charles Burquist. And if this podcast has you over the moon, you know, write and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Look for like the five star thing and then press all five stars. Thanks for listening. I'm Flora Lichtman.
WNYC is supported by AT&T. We all love to connect via video call, a text, or a group chat that never stops. And right now, AT&T has a deal that will keep the connection going. You can get the new iPhone 18 Pro for $0 with eligible trade-in. It has the ultimate Pro camera system and big leap in battery life, so you can turn this deal into a long-lasting connection. Learn how you can trade in your phone for the new iPhone 18 Pro at AT&T. Connecting changes everything. Required trade-in of $230 or more and eligible plan. Terms and restrictions apply. Subject to change. Visit an AT&T store for details.
If your workday happens in two languages, this one's for you. WhisperFlow is a voice-to-text app. You talk, it types, in any app, in more than 100 languages. The email in English, the text to your mom in Spanish, the client note in Portuguese, and it switches languages as you do, with the ums and typos gone. Four times faster than typing. WhisperFlow is free. Get it at whisperflow.ai. That's W-I-S-P-R-flow.ai.
Page updated October 30, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated