Black Holes, Denny’s Fist Fights, Japanese Handjob Culture & Microplastics - Rabbit Hole #4

In the fourth instalment of this new experimental format, we explore: - South Korea's government-funded looksmaxxing initiative. - Why everything you learned in school was probably false. - How to unlock an infinite handjob glitch in real life. - and much more… Guests: - Tim Ferriss is an entrepreneur, author, and podcaster. - Tim Urban is a writer, blogger, illustrator, and author. - George Mack is a writer, marketer, and entrepreneur. - Get up to 20% off Timeline powered by Mitopure (now at a lower price) at https://timeline.com/modernwisdom Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom Get 15% off your first order of my favourite Non-Alcoholic Brew at https://athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom - 0:00 Is Hair Loss Causing Birth Rates Decline? 6:05 How Tim Went From Blog Posts to the Story of Everything 16:18 The Most Mind-Blowing Facts About the Universe 23:37 Is the Vastness of the Universe Panic-Inducing? 29:45 Are Schools Teaching the Wrong Story? 37:45 Should Kids Be Banned From Social Media? 44:04 The Best Fidget Fixes 57:00 Does Tim Urban Have ADHD? 59:47 Should We Invent Our Own Language? 01:11:16 Why Time With Loved Ones Matters More Than You Think 01:17:03 Why Happiness Peaks Before Things Get Better 01:20:18 Which Regret Could You Not Live With? 01:28:11 Why Titles Have So Much Power 01:38:57 Can We Train Our Perception? 1:46:26 What Can We Learn From Animal Behaviour? 02:00:14 How Quickly Do People Lose It? 02:05:44 The Japanese Handjob Glitch 02:11:35 Is Avmacol the Next Breakthrough Supplement? 02:17:38 What Makes a Great Book? 02:32:27 Where to Find the Guys - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  Speaking of shiny heads.

• 0:01Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 0:02Chris Williamson?

  Tim, have you ever been to South Korea?

• 0:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yes, I have.

• 0:04Chris Williamson?

  Okay, would you like to go back?

• 0:06Tim Ferriss?

  I would, yeah.

• 0:07Chris Williamson?

  Well, South Korean president calls for hair loss treatment to be covered by insurance, suggesting that government-funded lux-maxing may increase the birth rate. His interesting proposal characterizes hair loss as, quote, "a matter of survival."

• 0:20Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 0:21Chris Williamson?

  How do you feel about that, Tim?

• 0:23Tim Ferriss?

  I think that is not the right solution to the problem. They have, they have tried a lot in South Korea, so I have spent time there. I would love to go back.

• 0:32Chris Williamson?

  A topic that is often very distressful to people living with it.

• 0:35Tim Ferriss?

  There you go.

• 0:35Chris Williamson?

  How do you feel?

• 0:35Tim Ferriss?

  I, I am not distressed because I shaved my head starting with wrestling at like age 12, so I got used to it, thankfully.

• 0:41Chris Williamson?

  Oh, you upped it in?

• 0:43Tim Ferriss?

  As soon as I saw the option to white knuckle or shave my head, I decided to shave my head. But the, I think the stickier part here is actually some systemic issues related to things like rent in South Korea, because they tried a stimulus of something like $2 billion to encourage procreation. Didn't work. And when you look at some of the issues in South Korea that are not obvious originally, because people point to idiocracy like comps where they're like, well, everybody's waiting later. They're getting more educated, dah dah dah. But in South Korea, for instance, if you want to build a family, meaning you're going to need a larger apartment,

• 1:24Tim Ferriss?

  there are very straightforward things that are a problem, like your safety deposit for, or security deposit for the apartment is like 12 months' rent. And people can't afford it. So they're like, I can't afford it.

• 1:37Chris Williamson?

  That's really an actual deposit for a house.

• 1:38Tim Ferriss?

  I can't.

• 1:39Chris Williamson?

  That's so much, so many months' rent for a security deposit.

• 1:42Tim Ferriss?

  It is. And they're like, I can't afford it, therefore I can't have kids.

• 1:44Chris Williamson?

  Who can, who can afford a year of rent if they're renting?

• 1:46Tim Ferriss?

  And I may be getting the months slightly wrong, but I talked to some Koreans and they're like, no. It's like, I want to have a kid and here are the reasons I can't. So I don't think fixing hair loss is going to actually solve that type of problem.

• 1:56Chris Williamson?

  Look, Tim, we're, we're playing in the margins here because we can't get into the housing problem.

• 1:59Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:00Chris Williamson?

  And the margins happen to be the top of the head. That's what matters most. The, the most interesting explanation I've heard for South Korea is K-pop. In order to become a K-pop star, you have to sign your agreement, your artist's agreement, says that you're not going to be in a relationship while you're doing it. So they have created the most popular cultural export and import, I guess, or internal stars have no families, no kids. Think about what happens when you do that. Like, it's just, so inversion. Easy as fuck. The only way you can become a K-pop star is if you've already got kids.

• 2:32Chris Williamson?

  That's how, that's my solution. Anyway.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, because also these become like

• 2:35Chris Williamson?

  Fucking dumb.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  Role models and now these role models have no kids.

• 2:38Tim Ferriss?

  Those kids don't need rooms. What are we talking about here?

• 2:40Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, they can go on the road on the tour bus, right? With the, well, there was that guy in Georgia. So to try and fix the

• 2:46Tim Ferriss?

  The country or the state?

• 2:48Chris Williamson?

  The country of Georgia. In an attempt to try and improve the birth rate there, it's very religious, I think it's very Roman Catholic. And there's a rock star back preacher guy. And he said, I will personally baptize the third child of any family in the country. All of these families speed ran children to get to the third. And he's done a meaningful increase in the birth rate because these families wanted this guy that was basically the most popular person on in the entire country. To like do the, do the thing on the kid. So.

• 3:20Tim Ferriss?

  Or you could just do what certain billionaires like the CEO of Telegram has done and say, I will pay for IVF for as many women who would like to have my

• 3:29Chris Williamson?

  Sperm donating his way to

• 3:31Tim Ferriss?

  A hundred plus.

• 3:33Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, he's a 2026 Genghis Khan.

• 3:37Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, he's doing it the nicer way.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  It's weird that most people don't do that, you know? So programmed to, it's like, it's like we're programmed for the instrumental part of it, like the sex. But like not actually, the actual like evolutionary goal is not part of the programming. And if it were, it would be insane. You'd have every rich person would be sperm donating. Crazy would be like all these scandals. It would be people with thousands of kids.

• 4:00Chris Williamson?

  More ideas, guys than operations, guys, I guess. You know, one of the, have you seen the documentary of the guy who had a thousand children?

• 4:08Tim Ferriss?

  No.

• 4:08Chris Williamson?

  So he started off as a sperm donor.

• 4:10Tim Ferriss?

  The doctor or no?

• 4:11Chris Williamson?

  I know it's not a doctor.

• 4:12Tim Ferriss?

  Cause there's one of those too.

• 4:13Chris Williamson?

  If you could search it, Jared, it's this big, thick, like Dutch looking guy. And he started off local sperm donating, but I think in the Netherlands, the limit's 20. And he just started going to different jurisdictions, like playing around with it in the Netherlands. Was it not a guy that switched out the sperm for his own?

• 4:31Tim Ferriss?

  There was a doctor.

• 4:31Chris Williamson?

  It was a doctor. He's like the Harold Shipman of We've got two guys trying to achieve the same thing, but very different routes in. Correct. Correct. And this guy, because there's a limit in the Netherlands of, I think of 20 children that you're allowed to do it because they're then concerned of Inbreeding. Inbreeding that may happen. And this guy ranked it all the way up to a thousand. And then when he got banned from the Netherlands, he started going, I believe to Kenya. Just to You're really gonna stand out in Kenya if you're a guy from the Netherlands, aren't you? Yeah. When the kids, when the kids come out, you're really gonna know that that's not somebody from Kenya. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a Mr. Beast of everything.

• 5:06Chris Williamson?

  Guy's gonna win, you know?

• 5:07Speaker 02

  But like, when you have a guy like that, you really want him to be, have a really, really good DNA. You want him to be like, high IQ and good disposition.

• 5:14Chris Williamson?

  You're Formula One drivers to be doing this. We need Max Verstappen to be like, lighting as a spurt.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  You're having a meaningful effect on like, the whole human gene pool when you do that. Especially like, three or four generations later, when there's a hundred thousand of your descendants in the world and they're procreating and.

• 5:28Tim Ferriss?

  Well, what does the future look like if it's the progeny of billionaires plus the hyper religious, right? Like, what does that mix look like? I mean, you look at certain countries and birth rates by kind of subpopulation, say, and certain places in the Middle East and stuff. And it's very much the hyper religious, right? So what does that mean in 20 years' time?

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:49Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  It's also the really impoverished people who are in an environment where a lot of kids used to die, die in childbirth. But now they don't anymore, but the, the adjustment of, of, uh, you know, fertility goes, goes, takes a lag generation. So you have this huge ballooning usually.

• 6:04Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  So that's also.

• 6:06Tim Ferriss?

  Tim Urban, I want to know what's on your mind, man. What have you been, what have you been obsessed with? I mean, we'll get to pianos, I'm sure, but maybe, maybe that's for later, after a few toothpicks.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  I, I, uh, I'm, I'm very, when I'm writing a book, I'm just like, in it and immersed in it. So I've been working on a book for three years. It's the story of everything. It goes from the Big Bang to the end of the universe.

• 6:26Tim Ferriss?

  You know, I've always wanted to say, I think you should be just a little more ambitious, you know? Reach for the brass ring.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  You know, it's like secretly kind of not as hard as it seems because you don't have to go that in-depth on anything. So it's little dips. It's like a kind of like a hundred blog posts in, in one.

• 6:42Tim Ferriss?

  You're like, World War II, that was a bummer, but it worked out.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  No, no, no. So, so for example.

• 6:47Chris Williamson?

  One sentence.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  No, no, literally, like, so World.

• 6:49Tim Ferriss?

  Sorry, sorry, Japan, we'll make it up to you.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  I was like, what do I do? I have the world wars. I can't not mention them, but like there's certain things. I want to focus on things that people are like, I never knew that. Or like, that's so mind blowing. Like, I'm not gonna go, I'm not gonna, we're not gonna go deep enough. Everyone knows the basics of world wars, right? So I decided instead, I'm gonna make it like a two-page story that's gonna be an allegory, which is a brawl at Denny's. Cause I got hooked on YouTube spiral of brawls at Denny's. It's very entertaining. And so then I came to my mind, I was like hooked on one that week when I was writing this and I was like, okay. So you've got like, um, you know, you've got a bunch of tension in the room. And then finally, like, you know, Austria, Hungary goes over and just like, you know, slaps Serbia guy in the face and then, and then, you know, a bunch of, you know, and then you have Russia and France kind of are like, you know,

• 7:37Speaker 02

  these big guys who are friends with the Serbia guy, you know, I just, so I just did this and and I don't know, I don't, a lot of the times I'm like, we, I don't know if that's good. I don't know if people will like this. That's what I just did. I guess that's how we're doing the world wars. And then I move on because I had to move on.

• 7:50Chris Williamson?

  Allegory of Denny's.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause everything I have to think about, how do I get this in there in a way that's still fun and new and different? I don't want, I don't want you to feel like you're reading a textbook or an encyclopedia.

• 8:00Chris Williamson?

  I would love one-sentence historical event recaps. I think that would be a fucking wonderful idea.

• 8:06George Mack?

  Fortune cookie history.

• 8:07Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Cause Barstool Sports, Dave Portnoy does the one bite pizza review. And this is just the historical equivalent.

• 8:13George Mack?

  It's like the Elton John diary entry.

• 8:16Chris Williamson?

  Oh, oh.

• 8:16George Mack?

  I think it's bought a Rolls Royce.

• 8:19Chris Williamson?

  No, no, no, no, no. I mean, you taught, you taught me about this. It's the single, it's a single great, that or the Hunter S. Thompson one, which like tracked, but I guess that wasn't a diary entry that tracked what his daily routine was. I woke up at 12 midday, two cigarettes, cocaine, whiskey, cocaine, whiskey, NVMA, da, da, da, da, da. But yeah.

• 8:38George Mack?

  Oh, here it is. Got up, tidied the house, bought a Rolls Royce, had dinner, wrote Candle in the Wind, had dinner with Ringo Starr. If that was one day.

• 8:51Chris Williamson?

  Bought a Rolls Royce, wrote Candle in the Wind, had dinner with Ringo.

• 8:53Tim Ferriss?

  I wonder if tidying the house was meaningful to him? Was that like soothing therapy? Or was that just buying time before he could justify walking to the Rolls Royce dealership?

• 9:03Chris Williamson?

  Dealership opened.

• 9:04Tim Ferriss?

  I will never know.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  It's also two dinners in there.

• 9:07Chris Williamson?

  That's true. I think, I think one of those is an error. I think the middle dinner didn't exist. We also use lunch and dinner. We use lunch and dinner interchangeably in the UK.

• 9:15Speaker 02

  And then dinner or supper or something, right?

• 9:17Chris Williamson?

  You can throw that, you can throw tea in the mix as well, Tim. Okay. Tea's good. After's is also not bad. Yeah. After's is dessert.

• 9:25Chris Williamson?

  Completely, completely gets mixed up.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  I, I had to, so I also had to get, so speaking in one sentence, I had to get from, you know, cause I'm going, I, I did like ancient Mesopotamia pretty thoroughly. Cause that's so like important. Um, and like, you know, the first empire, which was the Akkadian's and you have Sargon the Great, the first emperor and all that. And then I'm like, now I want to get to like the Bronze Age collapse and that stuff, but there's a thousand years in between. So I decided, again, I'm like, what do I do? So I just wrote a, so I'm going to do this in one sentence. And it ended up being a paragraph, a pretty long, it had probably be a full page, but it's a one run on sentence that goes through 2200 B.C. to 1200 B.C. So you, you got, you know, it's.

• 10:03Chris Williamson?

  But you really speed run it.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Well, but not usually. Sometimes then I would slow down and, you know, spend 20 pages on, you know, the Bronze Age collapse or whatever, but like, um, but like, yeah, I think, I think one sentence.

• 10:13Chris Williamson?

  You did Rome in a single sentence?

• 10:16Speaker 02

  No, Rome, Rome, Rome is later.

• 10:17Chris Williamson?

  Separate treatment. Okay.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Rome I had to say a little bit more about, but, um, uh, but you know, you can't, not going to go through the whole.

• 10:24Tim Ferriss?

  How did you choose this book project?

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Because, so I write blog posts about anything and it's a great format.

• 10:30Tim Ferriss?

  Now, just so people understand what we're talking about, cause I have more context than some people listening. How long are some of your blog posts?

• 10:36Speaker 02

  So the, the short ones are like 3000 words, which is like, I don't know, 10, 10 pages. Yeah, something like that. And then early on I was like, I can't go over, you know, 2000 words. And I was like, okay, I can't go over 3000, 4000. And then it just kept going up. And then I did one that was like 8000, but like, it got some traffic. And I was like, people liked it. Okay. And then the next one, and then, so I just had a problem where it was like one of these, uh, you know, it's like someone who keeps taking like, you know, more drugs to get the same high. Like, so I would just start like then getting more thorough and more thorough. And by the end I was writing 40,000 word. That would count in.

• 11:06Tim Ferriss?

  That's a book for like 50,000 words is a proper book.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  120, 150 page book, something like that. And but but so I had this format where I can write any length blog post. So I'm like, why would I do a book? I'm right, I have a and then I was like, OK, if I'm doing a book, it has to be a topic that I could never do as a blog post. Like, what's the ultimate topic that like is so big it has to be?

• 11:25Tim Ferriss?

  History of everything.

• 11:26Speaker 02

  So the answer was everything as a topic.

• 11:28Tim Ferriss?

  Now, I I'm just going to pat your back a little bit because I know you're not going to do it yourself. One of your longer posts, is it fair to say, I hesitate to even call it a post, but man of the hour, right? SpaceX is on a lot of minds. I checked today, it's like 2.5 trillion market cap right now. So Elon liked your stuff so much that he gave you exclusive access to what?

• 11:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, so he read my AI post and was like, hey, I like how this guy writes.

• 11:56Tim Ferriss?

  This was circa when?

• 11:56Speaker 02

  This is 2015, the beginning of 2015.

• 11:58Tim Ferriss?

  2015.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  So this is really early days with AI and with Elon, really. I mean, a lot of he was very, he was a huge deal, but a lot of people, I told them my life, they didn't know who he was at that time.

• 12:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 12:07Speaker 02

  And SpaceX was, some people knew about it, some people didn't. And and basically, he said, you know, how he is, he's very like, he likes to trust people and not and be hands off in a lot of those cases. So he would say, he said, would you like to write about Tesla or SpaceX ever? Normally, if someone's like, you want to write about my company, I would say no. But like Tesla and SpaceX are as fascinating as any blog post could be because they're about such bigger things than a company, right?

• 12:35Tim Ferriss?

  Also with the access that you could get.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  So then he basically said, you can talk to me as much as you want and also any engineer you want. And they don't have to be media ready, but and I said, because I said to him, like, and then on my side, I was like, I'm not like a journalist who's like, you can't change anything. I'm like, I'll send you the post at the end. And if there's something like some proprietary thing someone said that's not supposed to be in there, you can take it out. And they really almost took nothing out. It was like, it was like the the the cost of like a Starlink satellite. Starlink was an idea at that time. It was like, you know, little things like the bandwidth of a Starlink satellite, things like random numbers. There were like two or three of those, you can't put that in. Elon had like criticized someone that later they were like, nah, we don't want that in there. I was like, okay, I'll take that out. Other than that, like they let the let it go. And it was obviously, I'm like a space nerd, I could be in SpaceX, you know, the factory in

• 13:23Speaker 02

  in Hawthorne and just looking at the rocket up close. I got to like sit in a dragon and like This is 2015. 2015. So early. They had never landed a rocket yet. That was the big thing at the time. Can't, no one has ever landed a rocket. SpaceX is trying to. People think they're crazy. And I actually, I did one of these because they started broadcasting their launches. And I did the very, you know, it was like one of the very first ones. They were like, you want to do one when we're trying to land a rocket? I was like, sure. So I was like a guest broadcaster on the time when they landed for the first time. So like the seven year old in me was like, I can't believe this is real. It was like, it was very exciting for me. And then later I wrote a big, big post about Neuralink, which they launched the company alongside that post. So it was like,

• 14:04Speaker 02

  and then, and then the scariest thing ever was, the whole company now is kind of waiting on me. And I'm a procrastinator. Oh, with Neuralink. Yeah. And like, we're talking about how my posts always go longer. He thought it was gonna be like a 6,000 word post. This one was a 40. And Elon, by the way, I think this chill, he was like, it's so long, bro. And I was like, this is how I am, dude. This is how, I don't know what to tell you. This, I can't not do it. There's so many, I can't talk about Neuralink without talking about other brain computer interface. I can't talk about those. And then I have to talk about evolution. And then I have to talk about the brain. Exactly. The brain, the nervous system. How did that evolve in the first place? You go, we end up back in like the most ancient part of like origin of life. But that's how I do it. And, and it was such a complicated story to tell because it was the concept of a brain computer interface, but then the reason for it, which was like merging with

• 14:46Speaker 02

  AI and what the hell. So it was long, but he sends out a tweet that was like, like, we'll be launching in a week, you know, wait, but why post will be ready like in a week? And I was like, no, it won't. So scary. So I ended up, I ended up like furiously trying to finish it. I finished in three weeks. And I was like, talk about like, good external pressure. That's helpful to have like Elon Musk publicly putting pressure on you. So that was that. But yeah, and it's just great because you get to like, by writing that post, you end up just fully understanding like a whole industry you didn't understand before, right? So it was, it was fun. So amazing. Yeah. Yeah, their blog posts and then their blog posts.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Right. But yeah, so that's why a book had to be something even bigger than something like that.

• 15:34Chris Williamson?

  You've got the most watched TED Talk of all time as well.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  Second post. Oh, who beat you? Ken Robinson. Well, he was the first one posted like back in 2006. Mine was 2016, so he's got a decade on me, but I'm like, I think he has like 80 million and I have like 78. And I'm like, come on, man, like just get to first.

• 15:53Chris Williamson?

  Put some paid behind it. Just put some paid advertising behind it to just.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  I don't think that'll, I don't think that'll help.

• 15:57Chris Williamson?

  I think it's all YouTube. We could rip, make it rip in Bangladesh. You could get that.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:02Chris Williamson?

  You got one of those watch farms? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just a lot of people just learning how to not procrastinate.

• 16:06Tim Ferriss?

  Maybe for your Kindle version of your book or all your books, you just have, it's almost like signing up for wifi at the airport. Like you have to watch an ad, but in this case they have to watch your TED Talk.

• 16:15Chris Williamson?

  30 seconds. Just enough, just enough to trigger a play. That's all I need.

• 16:18George Mack?

  With the new book, let's say history is kind of like a stock market and everything's priced. I feel like World War II is very much, it's like Apple right now, right? Like people talk about World War II. What parts of history from your research do you think is like way more fascinating than people give it credit?

• 16:34Speaker 02

  Oh my God. Some, I mean, almost everything. I mean, everything. Once you dig in, you just, I mean, I was just writing about the black hole era. Do you know what that is? Like, uh, it's, I'm going to get like, I might like have an existential crisis if I talk about this, but so basically there's the, the star era goes on for like a hundred trillion years or something like that. So that the last stars will be born around a hundred trillion years from now. And then like 20 trillion years later, the last stars are gone and we're in the degenerate era. And there's just nothing except for little white drawers. And then that ends and all that's left is black holes. And so how long is the black hole era? Cause the black holes decay really, really slowly, really slowly, but then some of them are going to be huge. But there'll be a point at some point when the last black hole.

• 17:16Chris Williamson?

  It's Hawking radiation, right?

• 17:17Speaker 02

  Hawking radiation. Exactly. It's like the tiniest little, right around the edge, the antimatter, you know, whatever.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  So I was like, how do I explain how long this is? It's 10 to the 106 years. Okay. So what, how do you, what does that mean? How do you put that in a context? And the way I thought about it is, okay, imagine if we make a timeline where every centimeter is a billion years. So, so far it's, this is, this is how long we've got. Big bang today, right? And it's 13 centimeters. And now I was like, so how long would this timeline have to be to, to, to get all the way to the end of the black hole era? And I said, okay, well, let's just actually get, I want to always want to like actually do the calculation. So I was like, let's imagine this is a ribbon with a half a millimeter thickness and it's one centimeter wide, and then every centimeter of it is of length is a billion years. So how long would it have to be? Turns out you'd have to, if you could pack.

• 18:07Speaker 02

  Like, okay, if you imagine you packed this room tightly with ribbon. So it's just like this block, hard rock of ribbon, just packed as much as you possibly could in. You know, and every centimeter is a billion years. Okay, would that be enough time? No, you'd have to pack the entire observable universe to the brim with ribbon. And that would get you nowhere close. You'd have to have packs. And the final number I came to is 1.4 billion observable universes with this ribbon to have by the end of the last universe, you get to the end of the ribbon. That's the end of the black hole era. So there's shit like that, that I just.

• 18:41Chris Williamson?

  I'm going to put a wrinkle into it because after that you still have quantum fluctuations.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Oh, no, the dark era.

• 18:46Chris Williamson?

  And that goes on, that goes on for even longer. So the five, the five stages of the, five ages of the universe, sorry, book from 1996 goes through this. They had to come up with their own numbering convention to be able to name it. They didn't use ribbon. Yours is much more inventive. Those was way more nerdy.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  The dark era, which just comes after the observable universe, sorry, after the black hole era is way more upsetting. Because now, imagine you have an entire, you wrote a book that contains the history of the universe, right? And every page is an equal amount of time. You could pack, and it's like something like 16 of these, so a trillion times a trillion times a trillion times a trillion observable universes. But 16 trillions to the brim with pages. And the, from the Big Bang to the end of the black hole era, that whole thing with the ribbon I just talked about is not even the first proton and the first atom of the first letter of the first word of the first page of the first book. So I get upset about this. This is the kind of thing that when I think about it, then I'm like in bed and I literally can't sleep and I'm tossing and turning.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  And the next day, my wife is like, why are you so tired? And I'm like, it's too embarrassing to explain, but like I.

• 19:49Chris Williamson?

  I'm having an existential crisis about how long the universe is gonna last.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  We won't be here, but that amount of time will pass. And that is weird. Like, no one should want eternal life.

• 19:58Chris Williamson?

  There's a, an interesting theory about super advanced alien civilizations shutting down because toward the end of that era, you end up with an unbelievably cold universe, one that's significantly colder than ours now. Now, it's not much, but on the margins, this makes a big difference because almost all energy usage blows off heat. And if you were doing simulations, ancestor simulations, future simulations, if you had, if you'd gone into the metaverse and decided to make this your new place. It's way more efficient to do this the later that we go. So I'm gonna guess that you came across this too.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  It's one of the explanations for the Fermi paradox, which is the paradox that asks, why have we not seen aliens? When there should be lots of them out there, we should see something. There should be some that are far more advanced than us. So they should really be noticeable out there, building Dyson spheres and stuff. And there's many explanations. One of them is they're all hibernating because they've all figured this out. And they're going on this thing that will feel like a second to them, but they're just gonna go past a few, I don't know, whatever is a hundred, few hundred billion years. And we're just in this era where it doesn't make sense for an advanced species to be conscious. So they just are all hibernating.

• 20:59Chris Williamson?

  It's like waiting for the ventilation guy to come and fit the AC before installing your new computer tower. That's what it's like. It's gonna wait. It's too hot. It's gonna make the apartment too, too hot. We just go chill. Let's go play pickleball for a while. He'll come in in a bit. And then once we, once he's stopped.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  It's hibernating. It'll just be like a blink. Okay, we're here. Now let's keep going. But to us, we're just like, it's empty. No one's here.

• 21:16Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Fucking wild. It's really cool, dude. I got obsessed with that and super voids, the Boetis super void. Now that, if you want an existential crisis.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  Yes, another crisis.

• 21:26Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. It's like, so you should have a relatively uniform universe, right? A cosmic microwave background, but you don't. You have little fluctuations. This, even within little fluctuations, it should still broadly be pretty uniform. But it's not. There's these huge things called super voids that are like millions of light years across.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  The biggest ones are a billion light years across.

• 21:47Chris Williamson?

  Boetis one might be a billion light years, a few billion light years across. And it's almost entirely bereft of material for billions and billions of light years. It's insane. It's so fucking.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  There are some theories that even we are in somewhat of a void potentially, like that we're in a very uncrowded part of the observable universe, perhaps. It's unclear, but, and of course, by the way, this, everything we're talking about, the voids, we see everything, that's all within the observable universe, which might be like a grain of sand compared to the Earth-sized full universe. Like, this is just what we can see. And like, that's also freaks me out.

• 22:20Chris Williamson?

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• 23:01Chris Williamson?

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• 23:35Chris Williamson?

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• 23:37George Mack?

  Have you ever watched Power of 10?

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 23:39George Mack?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you watched Power of 10? Maybe Jared, you could get it on the screen on YouTube.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  But it's.

• 23:44George Mack?

  Because as you give me that kind of conversation there, I start zooming out of myself and I realise, oh, I am essentially nothing. And the power of 10, it starts with people in a park and it just zooms out by the power of 10, I think every three seconds. So it goes from them in the park, like zoomed in on their face to above, to above, to above. And you realise how quickly it goes all the way out to the earth, just essentially being nothing. But then what's the most fascinating part of this video is they then zoom in. So then zooms in all the way. Yeah, it's that top one there. This is the nearest I've found to doing any psychedelic drugs without having to ingest anything.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  This is a staple of American schools. We watch this.

• 24:24George Mack?

  This was in school?

• 24:25Speaker 02

  Are you serious? I never, I never saw that.

• 24:27George Mack?

  This is how you ended up, like how you ended up, Tim.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  This is, this made a huge impression on me.

• 24:33Speaker 04

  It's nice that basically this is making those picnic as the center of the universe.

• 24:41George Mack?

  Yeah.

• 24:42Speaker 04

  That's pretty fun.

• 24:45Speaker 04

  This must have been difficult to do without uh much computer technology.

• 24:50George Mack?

  I know, I'm impressed.

• 24:53Speaker 04

  Dude, fire up the autism engine. This is fucking great.

• 24:56George Mack?

  It's actually a beautiful meditation technique to sit there and do this and then start realizing how many other people out there have their own thoughts.

• 25:05Tim Ferriss?

  This is something that um I don't know if you guys recognize this name. So Ed Cook, who was a memory, competitive memory champion. He's he's from your motherland. He's a Brit. And then he trained, I think it was Joan Lerner, in a book called Moonwalking with Einstein. So he took a layperson, in this case journalist, and trained him up to be memory champion in the US where they have to memorize a shuffled deck of cards for time and things like this. There are various events, kind of like a mental decathlon. But as a meditative tool, he does this, is the only one, right? And there's also a really, this is like the Brit roll call here, but I think Oliver Berkman

• 25:47Tim Ferriss?

  is also one of your countrymen, wrote a great book called Four Thousand Weeks, which is tremendous. And one of the chapters is called Cosmic Insignificance Therapy. And it's some version of this. But that is partially why I wanted to ask you, like, to what extent do you find it helpful to think about this stuff where perhaps it puts problems in perspective versus overwhelming and its magnification of your insignificance?

• 26:14George Mack?

  There's a great cartoon, I think it's by Asher Pullman, and it's a guy saying, not only are your problems insignificant, you're insignificant in the grand scheme of the universe. So it's like this guy who's dealing with nihilism and then it's like the reframer is you also don't matter in the whole universe as well.

• 26:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 26:29George Mack?

  So you can have that effect that happens to people.

• 26:32Tim Ferriss?

  Yes, I'm curious for you, Tim, personally.

• 26:38Speaker 02

  I think it does make me feel kind of cozy in a way like I think it makes me feel better because it makes me feel just like lucky to be conscious here for a second as opposed to thinking like this is the baseline and oh my God, I'm gonna like die and that's gonna I'm like it's so cool that I that for a moment in this universe like my consciousness formed.

• 27:00George Mack?

  So improbable, right?

• 27:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, and like this tiny little also, again, we just talked about time is really scary. Space is really right crazy. And like you said, it then goes down to the small and like it's gets even smaller than it does big. And that's cool. I'm like a, you know, Feynman has this great quote, like, you know, I a universe of atoms, an atom in the universe. And it's like both of those, right? And it's like, it does just make me feel like very lucky to be here. And then that then then it feels like I'm playing with house money a little bit. And then like suddenly debt doesn't I'm like, whatever, man. It's like I'm this is so cool. And just like, I don't know, one, you know, I I I I'm tickled by these thoughts. I find it like endlessly. I get the dopamine hits I get from them. So

• 27:42Speaker 02

  to me, it just it's a it's usually a positive. I don't like reading about like the rise and fall of empires. You know, there's other parts of the book that I'm like, that's not a nice thought, because a lot of these empires.

• 27:51George Mack?

  It's a bit close to home.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  At their peak, they were really sure, or even on their way up, or even on the early way down, they were just they were this is it. We finally are here in the modern times. And we figured it out. And like those empires of the past, like they they made mistakes that we won't make. And every single one, they're in a catastrophic fall. I don't like that.

• 28:09George Mack?

  Yeah, well, I was joking with Chris when we did an episode recently, that as every I think we spoke about this as well, that as every empire falls, nobody announces that the empire has fallen. So it's obviously up for debate, but Rome, most mainstream historians will say that Rome fell in about four, seven, six A.D. And it's almost because it's quite poetic, because you have Romulus saw the rise of the Roman Empire. He was the first Roman Emperor. And then young Romulus was disposed, and that was the end of the Roman Empire. But the next day, there was no big announcement that the Roman Empire had fallen. So much so, it go you obviously have the split of the Roman Empire. I think in the 700s AD, Charlemagne is announced as the official Roman emperor. So 300 years later, it was still going on.

• 28:53George Mack?

  Voltaire said, "The empire that calls itself holy, Roman, an empire is neither holy nor Roman nor an empire." He said that in 1700 AD. So the actual, when it came to everybody deciding the Roman Empire had fallen, when it was officially announced, I think by Francis II, it was the mid 1700s. So I joke that the most powerful empire today, when it falls, there'll be people that still think it's gone.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  Or maybe people in 3000 will be like, "Well, of course, the US empire collapsed in 1994 AD." And we'll be like, huh? What?

• 29:29Chris Williamson?

  It's like a punch drunk boxer that can't admit that he's failing. But dude, your career's over. It's time to go.

• 29:34George Mack?

  Me and Chris can confirm that there was no moment that, certainly in our lifetimes, that the BBC announced the British Empire had fallen. It's like, when did it happen? It happened, but when did it happen?

• 29:44Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Speaking of stuff that you learned in school, have you seen the Retro Codex? Have you seen this? Really, really cool website. So it's a website that teaches you things that you learned in school that are now disproven. So you can go in and look at what year you graduated high school, and it'll tell you what you learned in school and have now been disproven. Jared, can you pull this up for me? So I put this in as 2000s, which would be for me and George. Lightning never strikes the same place twice. Lightning has struck several places multiple times. Empire State Building is struck approximately 25 times a year. Wearing red near a bull will cause it to charge. Bulls may not be able to distinguish the color red from other colors. What triggers the bull is movement and physical provocation, not color.

• 30:29Chris Williamson?

  The red cape is to conceal blood stains. Goldfish have a three-second memory. Goldfish retain memories for weeks, months, and possibly years. George Washington had wooden teeth. He did wear dentures, but they were made of other materials such as tin, gold, and lead. Human teeth from enslaved individuals. It's a bit gnarly. You need to wait 20 to 30 minutes after you eat to swim, or you'll get stomach cramps and drown. There's no clinical evidence for that. There's another one. Go a bit further down. Oh, if you roll your eyes, then it gets stuck.

• 30:55Tim Ferriss?

  You have taught in school and folk wisdom checked on the top left. I was like, I don't recall getting...

• 30:59Chris Williamson?

  Go down a bit more. If you pee in the pool, everyone will know because it'll turn water green.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  Hot water washing hands is not better than cold water. Yeah, right there. Interesting. I'm learning a few things.

• 31:10Chris Williamson?

  Water temperature has not been found to impact the antibacterial efficacy of hand washing. I didn't even know that. After a person dies, their hair or fingernails can keep growing.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  Who thinks Earth is the only planet with water? I don't know about that.

• 31:22Chris Williamson?

  But in the 2000s, might you have thought that? Because Pluto being a planet would have been true when we went to high school.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, true.

• 31:29Chris Williamson?

  Brown sugar is healthier than white sugar. Yeah, I just thought it's nice to find. And then obviously, all of this stuff with the food pyramid, that's got turned literally upside down. So.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  Some of these will end up being overturned, too. But yeah.

• 31:41Chris Williamson?

  Oh, for sure.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  I think when I was thinking about, you know, the way kids are educated. I think that schools do something that I think in some cases, like state, at least they traditionally, that is maybe the right thing to do, which is you teach the wrong story. The simple wrong story first, just to like let the concepts. And then later you start to build the nuance and you realize that the. But that's a kind of like Thanksgiving. I think it's, I think it's, I learned early on that Thanksgiving was this like wonderful thing. And the pilgrims came and the Indians at the time, the Indians were like, and everyone was happy. And they had this nice feast and or, you know, just like Columbus discovered the new world. But I'm like, no, he didn't. But like, and just like, keep it, let the basic stories seep in.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  And then later you can be like, actually, like this is like an allegory kind of for that. That represents like a much larger, more complicated, much nastier story often. And I think sometimes right now what they're doing is they're, you know, out of kind of, I don't know, you know, kind of political reasons or whatever. They're teaching kind of very, very like, you know,

• 32:44Speaker 02

  kind of a hardcore first story to really young kids right away that.

• 32:47Chris Williamson?

  They're front loading the gnarly version.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And maybe going too far even in that direction. When, like, I think, I mean, this is a whole other can of worms, but I think that maybe I want to.

• 32:59Chris Williamson?

  But they disguise.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  But like, I know, I think that.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  I do think American children should be taught first all these great things about America. They should learn that they're in this great country that's complicated. It's not been perfect, but they've done a lot of great things. And it's this wonderful thing and patriotism and be really proud. And then later. Later, then you can learn a lot more nuance. Or it's the same reason that I think you shouldn't be teaching your kid. You know that like you think your dad's a good person, but actually, you know, he cheated when in his twenties. You know that he like, you know, he got fired. Like, you don't do that. You start with that, that's great, of course. And then later in life, and the kid's an adult, you start, I don't know, this part isn't controversial anymore. You start to then say, uh, you know, dad, uh, you know, dad can say to you, you know, yeah, I'm not perfect. I did this and this, but like, yeah.

• 33:46Tim Ferriss?

  You don't need to front load.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  Kids are kids and like, it's a very different kind of person to teach.

• 33:50Tim Ferriss?

  Also, because, I mean, I remember talking to a very close friend of mine, he's got a bunch of kids. Wonderful guy, very successful in what he does. And I asked him what his parenting advice would be. And his first rule was you need to teach your kids to be optimists. Because action flows from optimism and agency flows from optimism. Right? And so what you're describing sort of creates a picture that you don't want to aspire to engage with. And seems antithetical to that.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  They're like two, you know, second, third, fourth graders, just, hey, climate change, climate change, your future is destroyed. Like, why? Who thinks this is a good idea?

• 34:26Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  Take little, little kids.

• 34:27Tim Ferriss?

  Well, and then the older generations are like, oh, my God, these younger generations are so apathetic. I'm like, yeah, you're getting waterboarded with existential threat all day. Yeah, you would be too.

• 34:36George Mack?

  I guess it makes sense that the younger you are, the more neuroplastic you are, right? And even like statements like that are quite reflexive. So if, if you go on, if I go on the news tomorrow and say it's, it's going to be a sunny day. I have no impact on whether it's going to be a sunny day. But a reflexive system is if I go on the news tomorrow and say, there's going to be a bank run. I have an impact on whether there's going to be a bank run. And if you go in thinking America's a terrible country, that's going to be quite a reflexive thing for your entire youth. I mean, it's quite funny listening to, not that you were complaining to him, but an American talk about the lack of patriotism in their country.

• 35:12Chris Williamson?

  With two Brits next to the.

• 35:13George Mack?

  Yeah, it's kind of like Chris talking to me about like how he's frustrated with the size of his forearms right now. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, okay, okay, I understand. But, uh, yeah, I think it's interesting for America to be going through that when you're still by far the tallest midget in the room.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  Right, totally. And, and by the way, there's so much British history to be proud of.

• 35:31George Mack?

  Oh, don't get me started.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  This negative lens.

• 35:33George Mack?

  Don't get me started, Tim. I, I declare, I said this to Chris previously, that we are the most insecure.

• 35:41George Mack?

  In terms of internal reputation versus external. So if you travel anywhere else in the world, apart from a few places, they often like love the UK.

• 35:49Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 35:49George Mack?

  But internally, they often criticize themselves the most. I'll never forget, a friend of mine came, his sister came home one day and she said, you know what, she goes, Britain is the racist country on earth. And he paused for a second and he just said, compared to where? She couldn't answer.

• 36:10Chris Williamson?

  That line about capitalism is the worst system apart from all of the other ones. No. It's just a crazy distortion lens and it's so self defeating. And it's like this crazy, yeah. Jack Butch has got this great line. He says, unlearning is a hundred times harder than learning. And if you're laying down those Mylan sheets and some kid who's five years old, six, seven, I don't know when you start to understand what climate is and what power structures look like. But yeah, you're probably best starting off with generalized optimism and getting into specific pessimism or specific scrutiny as opposed to generalized scrutiny. High school, maybe, you know, like maybe a little more elementary school is just, it's just, yeah. Most people don't realize how much being dehydrated impacts their performance,

• 36:54Chris Williamson?

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• 37:35Chris Williamson?

  purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com/ModernWisdom. That's drinklmnt.com/.

• 37:44Chris Williamson?

  Modern wisdom. Well, think about now, the UK, it looks like, I don't know whether this is actually going to happen. The UK is proposing a social media ban for under 16, it's the same as Australia's had. And I haven't seen much of the fallout of this. I steered clear of X for the last couple of days. But I, I really struggle to see how this is a bad thing.

• 38:04George Mack?

  To steal my, the other side, before you even get on to the 16 year olds is also a, you have to use identification now to use social media for anybody over the age as well.

• 38:12Chris Williamson?

  Is that a bad idea?

• 38:14George Mack?

  It's an interesting discussion.

• 38:16Chris Williamson?

  I, everybody's got. I'm okay with it. Everyone's got a concern about digital safety. I, I, I understand that, but. Why have you abstained for the last few days from X? Busy. Okay. Loser. I was like, what was the catalyzing of that? It wasn't a choice. It was literally just busy. Yeah.

• 38:33George Mack?

  Touching grass.

• 38:34Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, trying to.

• 38:35George Mack?

  Pathetic, mate. Get along.

• 38:36Chris Williamson?

  Trying to. I was looking at photos of grass on X, actually. It was better.

• 38:41George Mack?

  It was too busy doom scrolling on TikTok was the actual thing.

• 38:43Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Fewer bugs. But the Australia thing, you're right. What? You're such a fucking techno optimist.

• 38:51George Mack?

  Carry on, carry on.

• 38:52Chris Williamson?

  What?

• 38:52George Mack?

  Come on, come on, come on.

• 38:53Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 38:53George Mack?

  Don't interrupt.

• 38:54Chris Williamson?

  Don't interrupt.

• 38:55George Mack?

  Is Winston Churchill said.

• 38:56Chris Williamson?

  Stop interrupting my interruption.

• 38:57George Mack?

  Winston Churchill once said to Randolph Churchley's son at dinner, the best thing ever, which is like, can you stop interrupting my interruption?

• 39:05Chris Williamson?

  Go on, you go, you go for it. I just don't understand what the, what the counter argument is. I don't understand what, it's such anchoring bias because we developed the technology before we put the guardrails around it. And I think if you were to invent it today, having known the impact of social media, if it had been worked inside of a Faraday cage lab for a long time to look at what the impacts are. It would be like releasing cigarettes into the world, knowing the impact of them. I mean, something's gonna, I imagine that kids were able to smoke 70 years ago or something. I don't know whether there was ever an age restriction on smoking. I, I imagine the same would be for alcohol and you start to tick this up over time.

• 39:41Chris Williamson?

  The UK has introduced that lagging law for vapes now. So I think anybody born after 2010 will never be able to smoke. And the age just keeps tracking up. So it's, if you were born, what, 2006 or earlier, you're allowed to, and it's never going to change. You're never going to be able to smoke. That's just their attempted, you didn't learn to do it in the first instance, therefore we're gonna, you're never gonna need to do it in the future. But yeah, I mean, I, I'm, I'm in support of this. So I'm interested to hear what. Criticisms pushback against it are, but I don't see any reason why it's a bad idea to put under 16s, uh, put a ban on. The smart ones that want to start a business and really need to learn the internet are going to be able to get around it. They can still be entrepreneurial.

• 40:26Chris Williamson?

  And the ones that don't, I don't think they're going to miss out on much. What do you guys think?

• 40:31Tim Ferriss?

  In terms of age verification and identification.

• 40:34Chris Williamson?

  Is there, is there an issue stopping kids under 16 from going on social media? Would you be in support of it?

• 40:39Tim Ferriss?

  I would be in support of curtailing or forbidding it for sure. A hundred percent.

• 40:43Chris Williamson?

  A hundred percent.

• 40:44Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. I mean, spending time with Jonathan Haidt and so on. I, I just think the evidence is so compelling. Yeah, I would, I would for sure.

• 40:52Chris Williamson?

  I wonder how much of an impact he's had.

• 40:54Tim Ferriss?

  He has had.

• 40:55Chris Williamson?

  Just Jonathan Haidt as a guy.

• 40:57Tim Ferriss?

  He's had an impact with his small team on a, with state by state legislation changes. They've been very effective for, uh, for a small crack team of researchers and people.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  He also before, I mean, I, in my last book was about political polarization and wokeness and all of this. And he was, you know, the chapters ranged from kind of like evolutionary psychology to his, you know, political history to kind of modern current stuff. And I had different kind of gurus for each chapter that were different thinkers that I would like, you know, be, be sourcing from. And he's the only one who was, who was, who was one of those people in every chapter.

• 41:32Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  Um, he, he's kind of a, you know, I, I don't agree with everything he says. Um, uh, he's a, he's a giant. And this is before any of the.

• 41:41Chris Williamson?

  You ever met him in person?

• 41:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:42Chris Williamson?

  He's an actual giant.

• 41:43Tim Ferriss?

  No, no.

• 41:44Chris Williamson?

  Oh, he's very tall.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  Oh, he is?

• 41:46Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  Oh, I don't, I don't remember that.

• 41:47Tim Ferriss?

  He's tall compared to us, but he's not that tall. But he, yeah, for people, you mentioned anxious generation.

• 41:53Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Happiness.

• 41:54Tim Ferriss?

  Righteous mind. Last name, yeah. H A I D T. And.

• 41:58Chris Williamson?

  Happiness hypothesis is one of my favorite books of all time.

• 42:01Tim Ferriss?

  He's also just such.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  Coddling of the American mind.

• 42:03Tim Ferriss?

  Sweet, sincere guy. Yeah. Also.

• 42:06Chris Williamson?

  I think if you're going to talk about stuff like that, you, the potential for you to be right coded, if you want to be effective, you need to signal a lot of, um, uh, placids, peaceful, empathetic, understanding, both sidesy energy. Because if you even begin to lean right and center, it immediately looks like.

• 42:26Speaker 02

  So my friend and I argue about this because I have a friend who's very conservative. And he's very smart. He changes my mind about things. Sometimes, sometimes he's over the top, but he. The people he can't stand the most are kind of Jonathan Haidt, Coleman Hughes, these people who agree with, who are, you know, I argue to him, these people are fighting the causes you care about, but they're doing it way more effectively than you would because they're actually reaching center-left people. And if you start immediately being like, you know, super tribal and super right-coded, you'll never reach any of them. And he just sees them as such, he calls them media kiss-ups. You know, these people just, they still want to be, you know, they need to, they always need to make sure that the polite society

• 43:08Speaker 02

  approves of them. And I totally disagree with him because I think that John Haidt has done unbelievable impact against those kind of over-the-top-left causes that he really doesn't like.

• 43:18Chris Williamson?

  Way more effective.

• 43:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. And I don't even view it, it's not a partisan issue, right? I mean, I would just, because Jonathan's so terrible at asking for money, I would say, as someone who plays with scientific funding and stuff like that, if people are looking for ways to kind of bend the arc of history and undo some of the wrongs and ills of social media and so on, I think funding some of what Jonathan is up to with very small sums of money has a hugely disproportionate impact. Just coming back to what has he done with his small team? I just wanted to throw that out there.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  The ripple effects of being able to genuinely, you know, push the needle with changing policy with kids and social media is one of the biggest impacts you could make, I think, on the planet right now. You won't even know the effects of it, but 30 years from now, I mean, yeah.

• 44:04Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Sam, what have you brought from home? You've got a bag.

• 44:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I brought, just to dumb this conversation down a little bit, I brought a bunch of show and tell items.

• 44:11Chris Williamson?

  Adult show and tell. I like it. Fire up the autism engine.

• 44:18Tim Ferriss?

  So let's see, I'll start, I'll start with.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  You have a little engine that's.

• 44:22Tim Ferriss?

  I'll start with this. So this is called Byte. And the subtitle is pretty simple. Now, it's 124 bits, but it's bits as in little pieces of what look like candy, mouthwash bits. And this was recommended to me by Dr. Tommy Wood. He's a neuroscientist, also a beast of an athlete, but a very credible scientist, very well-published. And he and I were having a conversation about different approaches for neuroprotection, hopefully mitigating the risk of neurodegenerative disease, and oral health is a really big one. And yes, you can brush your teeth. Yes, you can use like a water pick or something like

• 45:01Tim Ferriss?

  that. But Xylitol is really, really compelling as an intervention. So you could chew Xylitol gum, you could do this, that and the other thing. But I found ultimately, everything I read so compelling that I started using these, which he recommended. And these are really simple. You just, well, you're gonna need water if you chew on it. So you basically for travel, but also at home, rather than having mouthwash, you take one of these. I'll show what they look like. I mean, literally just looks like a little piece of candy or like an aspirin.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  And we have water here.

• 45:33Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I'm gonna spit it out. You can't swallow it. So, or you probably shouldn't swallow it. So you just, you chew on it, take like a couple tablespoons of water in your mouth, swish it around for thirty, sixty seconds, then spit it out and that's it. And you just do that.

• 45:44Chris Williamson?

  Why is that better than normal mouthwash?

• 45:47Tim Ferriss?

  Because of the Xylitol content, along with a couple of other things. So for sort of antibacterial effects. And I know people, I'm not going to mention this person by name, but M D P H D who had cavities, started using Xylitol twice a day. And went back to the doctor, or the dentist, rather, no cavities. It's like, it's pretty interesting. That's N of one, of course. I don't know what's out there in the literature with respect to that. But found it interesting enough, and it's so lightweight as an intervention, that I was like, okay, I will, I will start doing that.

• 46:19Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 46:19Tim Ferriss?

  And.

• 46:20Speaker 02

  Anything that you can kind of just like have on your desk and just like pop one in and, you know, while you're, you'll do a lot more.

• 46:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I mean, my compliance with this, also with the amount of travel that I do is.

• 46:31Chris Williamson?

  It tastes good?

• 46:32Tim Ferriss?

  It's really, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just tastes like, kind of like candy.

• 46:34Speaker 02

  A friend of mine wanted me to get into organ meat. And I'm like, I'm not, I'm not gonna grind organ meat into my smoothie. I'm sorry. He does this.

• 46:40Tim Ferriss?

  That sounds gross.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  And then he got me these, these pills.

• 46:44Tim Ferriss?

  Decimated liver?

• 46:45Speaker 02

  I need to.

• 46:45Chris Williamson?

  Uncestral supplements?

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Yes, something like that. And it's, it's like, I take five or six and whatever a day. And I just, because it's on my desk and I just see it there, I pop it in. And I do it every day now. Now I have organ.

• 46:55Chris Williamson?

  This is, so I understand when people are designing their workspace, that you're supposed to keep it relatively undistracted. Like if you're gonna be in creative flow mode, maybe you do want some newspaper cuttings and like some cool art on the wall. But for the most part, we're trying to lock in and not get distracted. You're so right, having a. An environment that pushes you toward behaviors that you want to do. Sean Puri has a basketball on his desk and he thinks better when he's tossing it. But I played ball sports as a kid. It's the same. My best ideas almost always come when I've got a tennis ball in my hands or some sort of, and I'm just able to throw it. I don't know what's going on. Maybe it just distracts the front of my brain a little bit. The other one is that Ohm lamp that me and you have got. So this is a lamp around about this big and there's a little stone on the top of it. And the stone is an FDA quality HRV sensor.

• 47:40Chris Williamson?

  You just pick it up, hold it in your hand and the light goes up and down and the sounds. And it's using an algorithm to maximize your heart rate variability. So it's resonance breathing that you can do in three minute chunks. But the best thing is you can turn off all of the settings on it and it vibrates. It's like haptic, vibrates in your hand, pick it up and hold it and you can watch a movie. I've accumulated, I went and checked because I talked about it on my newsletter this week. I've done 160 hours of resonance breathing in six months. Just this year, I've done 160 hours because I just grab it next to my, I've got one in my office, one, one here, one there. Grab it and I just breathe in time with this vibrating thing. So if you're watching something with-

• 48:17Speaker 02

  Just like subconscious.

• 48:18Chris Williamson?

  And you're just tracking it up and down and it's, it's adjusting based on what your heart rate is doing. It's linked in with the wifi. So it's link it once, never think about it again. The algorithm is cutting edge and all you do is you just grab this stone and hold it and breathe with it. And it vibrates and there's one on my desk. So if I'm about to sit on a call where I need to be quiet for ages, I'll just grab it and have it. I mean, I don't hold it too close, but you know what I mean?

• 48:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have hundreds of fidget toys, like of all different kinds. And I get like, I put, I have a certain like dish on my desk that's that these are the ones that are in the rotation right now. And I have all the whole archive back there.

• 48:49Chris Williamson?

  Where'd you get your fidget toys?

• 48:50Speaker 02

  Oh my God, well, Instagram ads is deadly for me. It's figured me out. Specs, there's a S P A K S dot com, I think, is just that they have amazing like, like soft silicone covered magnets and like stretchy things. And I have silly putty and I've got these mechanical toys and you know, it's, it's an important thing for me.

• 49:13Chris Williamson?

  That's why-

• 49:13Speaker 02

  If I don't have those, I'll bite my nails.

• 49:15Chris Williamson?

  That's why these toothpick things or an equivalent, but the new tonic neutropics are- Just a bit of an oral fixation. If you're working away writing something, your business partner, Josh, because he's a real caffeine fiend, like ex Muay Thai fighter, now Brazilian Jiu Jitsu dude, like kind of hardcore guy, just started stacking them on a morning and got onto a call. I think it was with you and he had six in his mouth because he'd never taken any of the old ones out. He just kept adding them in. So he looked like a camel that was chewing on a bit of straw and he had all of these things poking out the front of his mouth.

• 49:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I find that if you've ever been, I don't know if you're like me, but if I'm on a, if I'm sitting at my desk and a friend calls me and we're talking and then I get really like animated, he says something, I'm like, yes, and I want to make this point. A hundred percent I'm up and I'm walking, pacing, right? And I'll even if I'm driving and I get home and I'm in a good phone call, I'll just keep looping around because it's something about the movement. And then so I think, well, why am I sitting at my desk when I'm writing? Like, it's probably something about my mind really lights up, like it wants to physically move. It's all tied together. So like, you know, I'll just do a standing desk with one of those rockers or a treadmill. You know, they have these like little rockers and it's just kind of like, I don't know, it just keeps you moving. But I don't know, I just feel like, yeah, if I'm physically engaged.

• 50:27Tim Ferriss?

  Have you ever played with dictation, any AI dictation or anything as a way of brainstorming while walking? I've been doing that recently.

• 50:34Speaker 02

  I've done it for brainstorming, like outlines of posts, talking through it. Yeah. But even better for me, if there's someone on the other end, especially someone I like, respect. So this is my assistant, Alicia, who's been working with me for 10 years. She knows exactly what I'm working on and she's like, you know, really tapped in, obviously. So I will just sometimes say, I'm stuck and we will do a call and she will basically say nothing, but her being there and me, she will give feedback at the end sometimes, but that's not, she knows the game is, he's going to talk to me now and he's going to crack his own thing by the end of this conversation.

• 51:07Tim Ferriss?

  So you don't record them or you do?

• 51:09Speaker 02

  I usually, well, I'll do is while I'm talking to her, I'll say a line and I'm like, yes, and I'll write it down. I'm like, where the hell was that when I was thinking alone, thinking I wasn't talking to someone?

• 51:16Chris Williamson?

  So what my weirdest new habit that I've done is I've tried to essentially give up all thought by the brain. So like, so let me explain, let me explain.

• 51:26Speaker 02

  Lots of nitrous.

• 51:32George Mack?

  So most people, or my former self, existed in the kind of simmering six. So the, the middle kind of ambient rumination, rumination, rumination. And the, the big trend at the minute is the whole like retard maxing to stop thinking, which I think is a bit ridiculous. I think what you actually want is a barbell. So you want, sometimes you do the retard maxing mode. And then sometimes you're doing the Einstein maxing mode, but that bit in the middle disappears. So for me, I stopped thinking with my brain. I only, what I mean by thinking, by the way, is if it's like, oh, Tim's got denim jeans on, that's a thought that's okay. But if, as soon as I get into a, I've got this thing tomorrow. You could do a thing tomorrow and it's replaying the thing tomorrow. It's doing the thing about tomorrow. It's doing thing. If I catch that going more than two or three loops, it's okay.

• 52:16George Mack?

  I can either think with my hands, so write it down. And Ralph Waldo Emerson described it as when you would write, rather than think in your head, you go from being drunk to sobering up. Cause even the, the working memory that we have in our head is like seven plus or minus two. I'm probably at the five mark. So you, that's one of the reasons why you look, you almost, I got advised once by a cognitive behavioral therapist. Who said, you would never do like even a moderate equation in your head. Yet we will do the most complex life decisions, just there for years, ruminating, ruminating, ruminating. And it's an example of where the 10,000 hour rule actually doesn't work. If anything, you get worse and worse and worse. So either think with my hands, or as you mentioned, then think with your mouth or think with your feet.

• 53:00George Mack?

  So as you're walking, so as soon as I get in one of those loops, I'm like, it has to be no brain, hands, mouth, feet.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  Oh, I get that. Right. Yeah.

• 53:09Tim Ferriss?

  The, uh, story you just told resonated because when I was totally stuck on my first book for months, like could not figure out how to crack this really important section and hired a woman who worked as a ghostwriter, but I wasn't going to use her that way to interview me on a phone call. And effectively just ended up talking and cracked it by the end of the conversation. And I was like, oh, I just needed to get out of.

• 53:35Speaker 02

  And like, what is it? So you're.

• 53:36Tim Ferriss?

  It's like self referential.

• 53:37Speaker 02

  There's a part of your brain that is capable of this thing. And for some reason, when you weren't talking, you're thinking it's just not, you're not accessing it. Like it's strange, but it's.

• 53:47Tim Ferriss?

  Really wild.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:49George Mack?

  Well, I assume if I had to think about it from a neuroscience perspective, you're probably using more of your default mode network as you're ruminating. As you're moving your lips, as you're moving your hands, you're activating a different part of the brain. And through that activity, it's almost like you're just releasing the taps.

• 54:03Chris Williamson?

  You must know from Kelly Starrett's stuff and just the way that the human body and brain works. Why is it that we want to locomote as soon as we start thinking about something deeply? Or we have that conversation? Because it's the same for me. If I get on a good call, even if I now have a habit that if somebody just rings and I've got nothing to do, I'll get up and go for a walk because, hooray, it's good to get stepped in. But there's other times where you start to get really animated and you just find yourself walking. What is it about the act of walking that makes thinking easier?

• 54:30Tim Ferriss?

  I'm not sure. I don't know. I mean, Kelly Starrett, people should look up, becoming the supple celebrity. He's very famous, PT, performance coach.

• 54:37Chris Williamson?

  Deathbound.

• 54:38Tim Ferriss?

  Really knows what, if you've ever used like a lacrosse ball to loosen up or like distraction with a band or something like that, he popularized a lot of that stuff. The couch stretch named by Kelly, et cetera. So he's worth looking up. I don't know. There are people who do really well sitting still. My fidget fix is like Japanese slash East Asian like pen spinning. That's a whole thing. So that people can find like a 20 year old YouTube video of me showing like the basics of this, but I'll just sit there doing different types of spinning with a pen. That's my move. Pacing also, huge pacer. For me, I think it could be, I'm just speculating here,

• 55:19Tim Ferriss?

  but occupying a part of your mind that is, for instance, like the monkey mind, right? I think this is part of the reason why flow states often include some kinesthetic component, right? Whether it's music, playing violin or something like that, surfing, whatever it might be. I think that there is an occupying of certain cognitive faculties or.

• 55:43Tim Ferriss?

  Looping mechanisms that is aided with physical movement, but that's just.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  It's like when my, my 15 month old is annoying me and I'm trying to do something. I'll just like hand her something to occupy her and then she's like, and it's like a little like there's like a 15 month old in my head. It's like, ah, and I'm like, shut up and I just give something and then it's.

• 56:02Chris Williamson?

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• 56:47Chris Williamson?

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• 57:00George Mack?

  A question for you, Tim.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:01George Mack?

  Question. As you was talking earlier about the treadmills and all the fidget spin devices and the Instagram ads and you're buying stuff. I had like a, I was thinking in my head of if you was born 10 years ago.

• 57:13Tim Ferriss?

  Did you say if you was born?

• 57:15George Mack?

  If, sorry, if you were born, it's again, British English coming in. It's not British.

• 57:19Speaker 02

  I liked it.

• 57:21George Mack?

  British people talk so much more cool than we do.

• 57:23Chris Williamson?

  If you was born around about 10 years ago.

• 57:26George Mack?

  Listen here, listen here, mate. Would you be like diagnosed with ADHD?

• 57:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is like the age old question in my mind is do I have ADHD? Am I a classic example of it or not? And like, I guess I don't know. I wonder if I were born, yes, in that age, whether I would have been like medicated because I was a class clown. And, but I did well in school and it was never hard for me to like, I always assume, think of like real ADHD is like you're sitting during a test and you're just like, you can't focus on the test. You need extra time. That was, once I had the adrenaline, like, oh shit, I was like, I could focus really well. So I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

• 57:58Tim Ferriss?

  Do you get calmer with stimulants? Are there certain stimulants where you end up like actually calming down and focusing? Or do you get agitated with stimulants?

• 58:07Speaker 02

  For me, what it is, is like, there's like a perfectionism that is, is if, if, if once I, it's I can't transition. I'm awful at transitioning. I will procrastinate from starting work for hours. And once I get, have to start, once I'm in it, now I'll get going and then someone will interrupt. I'll be like, and I'll miss dinner because I just want to keep working. So it's like, it's, it's, it's this weird, like, I, I'm very, I, I, a lot of inertia for whatever I'm doing. And that to me is a huge thing is just like, uh, there's no adult around making me start work. And I grew up with that as a crutch. Always I had to go to class. I had to finish this. I had to. And now there's no one. So I will just self defeat for hours and waste the good part of the day. And then finally, so that's why I wouldn't again, another thing I do with my, with Alicia is, uh,

• 58:51George Mack?

  Alicia's your sister?

• 58:52Speaker 02

  Yes. I will share my screen with her at like 10 a.m. And she's working on-

• 59:00George Mack?

  You've got to be very careful with that, depending on how your day goes.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. You have spaces. You go to a safe space. And, and she, uh, is working on her own thing. I don't know when she's looking at my screen and when she's not. She's probably not usually, but she might be. And so I'm not going to procrastinate in front of someone that's mortified.

• 59:16George Mack?

  You've created a digital panopticon.

• 59:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's great.

• 59:19Tim Ferriss?

  There are services that allow you to do this. They'll pair you with someone else and you work at the same- You work at the same time. I can't recall-

• 59:25Speaker 02

  It has to be someone that really knows, like, if I'm on a certain research page, they might not know, is he procrastinating? He's not, she'll be like, that's not relevant. What are you doing? You know, like, you're going too far.

• 59:34Tim Ferriss?

  Will she actually police you?

• 59:36Speaker 02

  She, she usually, she's very like-

• 59:38Tim Ferriss?

  Tim, no Pornhub until 2 p.m.

• 59:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. She, uh, she will say something about that.

• 59:46George Mack?

  It's just World War II. I tell you what, I've got two things. Number one, we, we've discussed this earlier. I'm always trying to, um, create new vocabulary for myself. I feel it activates a certain part of the brain. Do you remember my favorite word that I, uh, invented five, six years ago that you love?

• 1:00:02Speaker 02

  Fly dripping?

• 1:00:03George Mack?

  Yeah, fly dripping. So I was, I was once stood at a toilet. And you know, men do this where they piss around the seat. And I was like, What's the word for that? Wait, piss around the seat. Yes, you know when somebody urinates on the toilet seat? I usually try to avoid this. Well, exactly. Yeah.

• 1:00:20Chris Williamson?

  Public toilets is a bit of a.

• 1:00:21George Mack?

  Public toilets you may see it, right? So I kind of came up with the term fly dripping for that. And what's useful about beginning to create your own language is, I mean, I have to talk about the benefits of languages. I'm using language.

• 1:00:33Chris Williamson?

  Interesting. This is the first word that you develop.

• 1:00:35George Mack?

  That's the first word that I developed or terms as a whole. So one of the things that worked with the high agency piece that I did, or even just having that language meant that I had a name for essentially an idea that people already knew or that I already knew. But it compressed like 5,000 words into two words. And then I was like, hold on, I don't have a term for that. That's quite meta. I don't have a term for that. And then Scott Alexander had this term called an idea handle. So an idea handle, you can kind of pick up ideas by like coining terms. So the two ones I've been trying to coin last week are the following. So number one, Kesha's law.

• 1:01:14Chris Williamson?

  Like the artist Kesha.

• 1:01:15George Mack?

  Kesha's law is whenever you're creating art, try not to use any modern references because it may come back to bite you in the ass. So the artist Kesha, I love, I love, by the way.

• 1:01:25Chris Williamson?

  Formerly known as.

• 1:01:26George Mack?

  This may not be the best podcast in the world, but we have the highest range. We've gone from Black Wolf to Kesha. Say what you want about the quality, but you can't knock the range. Kesha, her number one song was.

• 1:01:38Chris Williamson?

  Started with.

• 1:01:39George Mack?

  Wake up in the morning feeling like P Diddy.

• 1:01:44George Mack?

  So that's tough now. So what she did, so what do you do?

• 1:01:47Chris Williamson?

  She had to retcon her own song.

• 1:01:49George Mack?

  Yes. So what she did was wake up in the morning feeling like me flops. So now.

• 1:01:56Chris Williamson?

  When did she do that?

• 1:01:56George Mack?

  So quite recently, in terms of the rebrand around the whole P Diddy escapades. Now she's come out and done, wake up in the morning, fuck P Diddy, which is a little bit better, but she still has.

• 1:02:08Chris Williamson?

  Really fit the story.

• 1:02:09George Mack?

  But ultimately, if you put a P Diddy bottleneck in there.

• 1:02:11Chris Williamson?

  Where is the comma in that sentence? Wake up in the morning, comma, fuck P Diddy.

• 1:02:16George Mack?

  Kesha's law. So whenever you're creating things, you've got to avoid modern things. Another law I've tried to create recently, I was watching, I don't know if you guys have seen the new Michael Jackson documentary on Netflix. And there's a scene in there. It's only so much in Neverland I can handle. Yes, yeah, I forgot, I forgot Tim. Sorry to bring it up. You can walk out if you need to.

• 1:02:37George Mack?

  There's a scene in there that's explained some stuff that we've discussed of imagine you have an axis like here. So you have essentially being an awful person or crimes that you might be able to commit. And I'm not even going to discuss Michael's ones just yet. And then you have talent. So as you go, the talent can essentially get out of the axis and MJ's

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  Louis C.K. People are like, he's too funny. It's fine.

• 1:03:02George Mack?

  Well, MJ, and there's something about music that like, for example, no offense to you, Chris, I think you're a lovely podcaster. Okay. But if you started non-sing, right? If you became like

• 1:03:13Speaker 02

  I'm not talented enough to get away with non.

• 1:03:15George Mack?

  Nobody's like, nobody is like going.

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that whole episode.

• 1:03:19George Mack?

  But that whole nosy pod, you know what I mean? Like people, but music. So this is the crazy thing. So Michael is in the defense for this pedophilia charge. And there's the, the guy who did a documentary on him. And they're showing the documentary. So it's where Michael's kind of got his hand around a child. And they're like, talking about the child, talking about how he didn't want to go into Michael's bed, but Michael asked him to come into his bed. So they're playing the whole documentary as proof of potentially his crimes. But within the documentary, it plays some of his music. So what's interesting, you have both the defense, the judge, the jury, and even the defense said when they played Billie Jean.

• 1:04:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:02George Mack?

  He saw himself doing that. He saw the judge nodding his head. I was like, wow. MJ's law, you could be, the defense could hear your music and still bob their head.

• 1:04:13Speaker 02

  And you're still get, you're giving them like actual like pleasurable dopamine hits. And that makes that disendearing. Yes.

• 1:04:19Chris Williamson?

  There's some, we talk about this a lot of people that are in the pop culture thinkers, speakers, artists, whatever. How, who is it that's got the largest bank account that they could withdraw from before they go into?

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  Bill Cosby was probably number one. And, and he, if you would ask me before all the, the Bill Cosby scandal came out.

• 1:04:44Speaker 02

  I would have been like Bill Cosby is the number one like, like least likely to be canceled person. And it turns out what he did was so bad that if you're gonna, you know, like actually like roofie dozens and dozens of like, young women that you're promising like career breaks to, that is so bad that like, even Bill Cosby, that you can't even, you know.

• 1:05:05George Mack?

  Correct.

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  But you didn't have a Musa Musa Mamacusa. I think that's it.

• 1:05:09George Mack?

  That's true. If Bill Cosby had released a banger.

• 1:05:11Speaker 02

  I think music weirdly.

• 1:05:13George Mack?

  Yeah, it's almost comedy before music seems to destroy the human brain more than comedy. So for example, if you really dislike a comedian, or they've done something awful, you can almost not find them funny. Which is why I used the example then, if Chris was in court, again, I'm not planting these rumors, but if Chris was in court for doing something horrific, and they pulled up his 4K set with Matthew McConaughey, it doesn't do anything. But there's something about music.

• 1:05:33Speaker 02

  Someone really funny, I think it does have some of the same effect, but not to the level. Not to the level. Now, another example would be, and this doesn't work for the whole population, but political tribalism is like this just powerful drug that just makes brains crazy. And so if you're political tribe, you're really tribe, if you're a really politically tribal person, and the person that you are, that is, you know, part of your team, you'll forgive like, anything. And you can see this with a lot of famous politicians today, you can like, and it's, I think that the people of that tribe, or you can see with like, you know, other kinds of tribalism, like, there are many people who refuse. Jussie Smollett is innocent. He was, and there's every bit of evidence,

• 1:06:18Speaker 02

  but like, because it gets tapped into a really tribal thing, the people that see him as like, on our side, and the people criticizing him are the bad guys, like, there's nothing that could make them turn on him.

• 1:06:27Tim Ferriss?

  Could I workshop a new word with you guys right now?

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  Shoot.

• 1:06:30Tim Ferriss?

  All right. I've been struggling with this, because I like doing the same thing. I like these, the invention of words, right? And so, like, I'll give you two examples of ones that, that I'm, I'm proud of rightly or wrongly. One is a word, teledultery. So teledultery is when you and your partner have watched a show together and then someone separately watches more episodes without you.

• 1:06:54Chris Williamson?

  Oh, that's good.

• 1:06:56Tim Ferriss?

  Television. It's exactly what it feels like. Yeah, teledultery. You're like, how could you? Yeah. And then the newer one, which is like, ah, it's not quite as good, but I like it. There's something there is hallucinatives. Like the first generations to assume that LLM responses are fact to do no cross checking. Hallucinatives, right? It's like, ah, it's not bad. I mean, it's not as good as teledultery.

• 1:07:19Chris Williamson?

  Teledultery is gonna stick in the lexicon.

• 1:07:21Tim Ferriss?

  That one I put up this like probably 10 years ago on Twitter. So back when it was Twitter. So we'll see.

• 1:07:26Chris Williamson?

  Better than fly dripping.

• 1:07:27Tim Ferriss?

  I stake fly dripping's not bad.

• 1:07:30Chris Williamson?

  It's just such a niche issue. It's such a.

• 1:07:34George Mack?

  I'll take you to McDonald's.

• 1:07:37Chris Williamson?

  That's the Denny's.

• 1:07:38Tim Ferriss?

  Start niche, start niche. The one that I've been trying to figure out is, and this maybe I'm the only one, I don't think I am. Where everyone is so overwhelmed with notifications and bullshit on their phones that at least most of my friends have do not disturb on. So they'll be like, sure, man, call me. And then you call them and it goes straight to voicemail. And they're like, no problem. I'll call you straight back. They call you back and it goes straight to voicemail. So it's this like do not disturb death loop. And but I have not been able to come up with like a pithy word for this.

• 1:08:08George Mack?

  I, I always joked that if I could have a job, it would essentially be this. So if I could have any job in the world that I would do for free.

• 1:08:16Tim Ferriss?

  Coming up with these words.

• 1:08:17George Mack?

  Yeah, the one I, so this type of thing, or it would be like, you probably don't get it as much in America, but in the UK you have the proper British red tops. So it'll be the, and they do horrific things back in the day.

• 1:08:28Tim Ferriss?

  What's a red top?

• 1:08:28George Mack?

  Red top will be like the newspaper, like proper, like scummy newspapers. But they'll have something like Wayne Rooney's shagged a prostitute that's a grandma. And they're running the story tomorrow and they need someone to write the headline.

• 1:08:39Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, it's like a New York Post, New York Post.

• 1:08:41George Mack?

  The ability to, I actually hate the articles, but the ability for just somebody to give me a story and then just say, we need four words.

• 1:08:48Tim Ferriss?

  We need some horrible pun.

• 1:08:49George Mack?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:50Tim Ferriss?

  In this headline, yeah.

• 1:08:53Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I'm thinking about like disturb loop, like or do not loop or disturb a peed, which makes me think about like the human centipede.

• 1:09:04Chris Williamson?

  Like Ouroboros, like playing something into that could be fun.

• 1:09:06Tim Ferriss?

  Something with a boomerang. We could throw that one out to the audience.

• 1:09:09Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, best ones in the comments below for when you ring someone and it's do not disturb.

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  I will say like as a blogger.

• 1:09:15Chris Williamson?

  Do not disturb all the way down.

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  Like explaining things and coming up with like terms and stuff like that. And it's like, most of the terms don't stick and the, the, like, the posts are ideas of mine that have gone most viral or just stuck around the most or almost always like where I nailed the term. And it really is like, it is such an important thing. Cause if you can really, I mean, look, look at cancel culture. It was this concept. People said, you know, where the people are, there's too much political correctness or like, you know, where it's a little bit, you know, it's like, it feels like there's witch hunts. I said, he wasn't quite getting it. And then this one term.

• 1:09:48Tim Ferriss?

  Alliteration.

• 1:09:48Speaker 02

  It labeled it and that exposes it. Now you're acting kind of like that. And it just, it did a number on it. It was really like, it was, it was a powerful, it changed the, the, the culture war, this term. I mean, so you can, examples like that are just so, and people who can do that really well.

• 1:10:03Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, can I throw out one more related to that? Bigoteer, like a racketeer, someone who labels others for profit or gain of some type of bigoteer.

• 1:10:12Chris Williamson?

  That's right. Very nice.

• 1:10:14Speaker 02

  That's great.

• 1:10:15Tim Ferriss?

  So what are some of the blog posts that have really nailed the terminology?

• 1:10:19Speaker 02

  Like you, you mentioned the TED Talk that's gone really viral. And I think part of what was successful there was procrastination is something that so many people experience and was just, again, putting labels to things like I called that, that when you are procrastinating, I said, you know, I discovered you're in the, the dark playground. And it's a specific thing where you're, you're, you're, you're dicking around social media, you're, you're texting with your friends.

• 1:10:45Tim Ferriss?

  I'm looking up one of your blog posts.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  You're, you're texting with your friends and you're, you're doing whatever. And, and it is, you're in the playground, you're having fun, right? It's leisure time, but it's not fun at all. This is just dread and guilt and stress and anxiety that you're here and you know, you should start working and you feel this. It's not fun. That's why it's the dark playground. But now I get messages from, you know, mothers that are saying, my son, my nine-year-old son said, oh, mom, I'm in the dark playground. I need to get out. And it's like, okay, you know, that was a successful term. And it's like.

• 1:11:11Tim Ferriss?

  Yes.

• 1:11:13Speaker 02

  It's interesting. The leverage, the leverage that exists.

• 1:11:16Tim Ferriss?

  I'm so sorry. What about the tail end?

• 1:11:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:18Tim Ferriss?

  Is that, am I uniquely affected by that?

• 1:11:21Speaker 02

  No, no, that one. And that's, this is why.

• 1:11:22Tim Ferriss?

  Do you guys know this blog post?

• 1:11:24Speaker 02

  Yes, I think so. Yeah.

• 1:11:25Tim Ferriss?

  You should describe it because this was sent to me by a friend, Matt Mullenweg. And like, it's, I still think about it constantly.

• 1:11:30Speaker 02

  You remember the guy that sent it to you?

• 1:11:32Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. You want to, yeah.

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  So this was, this is why I like blogging because I want to take lots of swings at the bat. Swing swings at the bat because then you might hit a homerun once in a while and you don't know which ones. But if you're just doing, that's why books is like one giant swing over three years. I don't like that. And this is an example of one where I was procrastinating during the SpaceX post. I was writing the SpaceX post and I was like.

• 1:11:54Tim Ferriss?

  You know what I should really do is write another blog post.

• 1:11:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Classic, classic thing. I was like, I have an idea. What am I just going to do? Instead of doing this like big giant mountain, I'm just kind of like, oh, I'm just going to do this little idea that I've had for a long time. But then I like, thought about it in bed in the morning and I was like, oh, okay. I know how I want to do it. And then I just got up and did it in a couple of hours and it made it. It was one of those that really made a big impact. And the idea is that. So one of the things I like to do is just like use visuals or whatever to look at how much time we have. I like to zoom out and I don't, I don't want to just unconsciously go through life and then be like, oh, wow. Like, look how much time passed. I never, I want to be like, how much, let's just look at it. How many weeks are there left if I live to 90? Like, let's just, let's just see this for what it is. And so I'm not like caught, you know, I'm not blindsided by it later.

• 1:12:41Speaker 02

  And so I would think about, okay, I've, you know, even just watching the World Cup. I'm like, oh, maybe I have 12 World Cups left depending on like longevity research. And that's if I'm lucky, you know, and.

• 1:12:51Tim Ferriss?

  And how many Christmases, how many?

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  Exactly. So I do this kind of thing, but then I kind of had a disturbing thought, which was not all of the important things in life are evenly distributed. World Cups are, Christmases are.

• 1:13:05Speaker 02

  I grew up spending 350 days a year with my parents or whatever, you know, when I got older, went to camp, maybe 330, over 300 days a year with my parents.

• 1:13:15Speaker 02

  And my sisters. And.

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  And then you graduate and you know, you, you, you, you either go to college or whatever you're doing. You know, if, if you, if you move out of the city, especially you might see your parents, I don't know, 10 days a year, 20 days a year, I don't know. If they live in your city, maybe you see them 80 days a year, whatever. But either way, the number is much smaller. And so then I, you know, I was like, well, if you actually add up the total number, if I just say I'm seeing them 15 days a year right now, so that's, I need 20 years now to capture one year of parent time when I was a kid. I was like, wow, if you look at the whole number, I'm 95% way of the way through with my in-person relationship with my parents. And I was, this was, I had this thought. When you graduate from high school. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. When you graduate, so now I'm even older, right?

• 1:14:03Speaker 02

  And so, and this is if you're lucky, if your parents live long lives. And. It was super depressing and also one of those things where I'm like, I need to, some thoughts I have that are, you know, or ideas that are depressing and don't serve any positive purpose. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to just share my misery and spread it.

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  This, I was like, no, this is important. We need to look at this, we need to look at this for, you know, two reasons. One, if you are living in California and your parents are in New York or whatever, and you are seeing them 10 days a year, and that's just a reality. Or again, with a friend, there's some friends I saw all the time in high school that I, I'll see once every five years now, once every five years sometimes, these are close friends.

• 1:14:44Speaker 02

  I might see that friend 10 more times, period. I might see my parents only, I don't know, 200 more times, 150, 100 more times. And so if that's the reality, being like staring it in the face and being aware of it will at least make you treat those times you are together as what they are, which is precious. Or also you can maybe make a big change. I've had people tell me they moved back home to where their parents are because of this post. Because if you go from living in California to you move back home.

• 1:15:15Speaker 02

  And you see them now 60 days a year. You actually just brought that percentage down. Oh, instead of being 94% done, I'm only 81% done. Like, wow, that's a, you can change the equation. So it's this actually really empowering thing. Or at least, you know, I'm not living in the same city as my parents, but I'm, I've become like so adamant about like, we need to all see each other every eight weeks, like somewhere. It needs to be revisit, we visit my sisters there, then we visit home, then we have Thanksgiving, then you should all come here for this. So it's like, it's helped motivate me to, I mean, and again, it's not pleasant, but having the delusion that we have endless time together. Is not helpful.

• 1:15:46Chris Williamson?

  It encourages a bias for action.

• 1:15:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:48Chris Williamson?

  One of the worst things to do is to identify something uncomfortable that it feels like you can't change or fix. That is where people really, really don't like, you know, this is how bad social media is for you. And people push back against that a lot because I feel, I feel like it's out of my control. I kind of agree with the problem, but you haven't yet given me, oh, the solution feels a little bit more out of reach than that.

• 1:16:12Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, I just start, I personally started taking my whole family on a family trip every like year to two years. And did that up until my parents were physically incapable of doing it. But like that post was a real catalyst. The conversations that I had with Matt and other people about it. And I was like, okay, like, look, I'm not going to move back home. I don't have any desire to live in the middle of nowhere, but at least we can block out like two to three weeks of concentrated time where we're sharing these adventures together. We had the anticipation of the trip leaning up to it, which is a big piece of it. We have the memories and.

• 1:16:45Chris Williamson?

  That from you, that from you is one of my favorite ideas. Look at this, just mutually fellating each other. One of my favorite things for you is that most.

• 1:16:52Tim Ferriss?

  You promised it in the text to me, so here we are.

• 1:16:54Chris Williamson?

  True.

• 1:16:56Chris Williamson?

  Like Bonnie Blue.

• 1:16:58Chris Williamson?

  Range, your insight, range, dude, it's the most, the highest range, highest range on the planet. Your idea that the holiday that you go on, you should book them as far out in advance as possible, because so much of the enjoyment is done in anticipation. So there was this great study done a while ago. I did my master's dissertation on the effectiveness of anti alcohol advertising on students at Newcastle University. I wanted to see what sort of interventions we can do to try and reduce. This is when drinking was a problem, not not drinking, which is now the new problem. But the thing that I realized is doing a little bit of reading and a bit of research around this was. A study was done looking at when people enjoy nights out the most.

• 1:17:41Chris Williamson?

  And this included people that were drinking. So you'd think, how many drinks deep is it? Is it when you arrive at the nightclub? Is it when the music, the mainline DJ comes on? The headline DJ and everyone's there and they're having a great time? No, it was in the flat, in the apartment, as you were getting ready for the night out. Like, the middle of the bullseye of dopamine and human satisfaction is, things are about to get a little bit better than anticipated.

• 1:18:05Speaker 02

  Friday at 3pm at work is the happier moment than like midday Saturday.

• 1:18:08Chris Williamson?

  Correct.

• 1:18:09Speaker 02

  And by the way, the inverse of that is, if something shitty that I'm gonna dread is on my plate, I wanna know about it as late as possible. I had six months to think about that I have a TED Talk hanging over, that's gonna, this horrifying thing over the horizon. I wish someone had just told me a month before, you have to, if you want me to speak at your wedding, tell me freaking 10 days before. Do not give me six months where I'm like, ah, after that wedding, I have to come up with a really good speed.

• 1:18:31Chris Williamson?

  Ah, that's so good. Yeah, because you're front-loading the pain.

• 1:18:34Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:18:35Chris Williamson?

  As well as front-loading the anticipation.

• 1:18:36Speaker 02

  So you wanna know about good things way ahead and you wanna know about that?

• 1:18:38Chris Williamson?

  Tell me about the gangbang or you're in advance, but tell me about the tax return one week before.

• 1:18:42Speaker 02

  Depends on the details on that one.

• 1:18:43Chris Williamson?

  Which side of the gangbang you wanna be? That's true. That is true.

• 1:18:47George Mack?

  You know, the most depressing version of your kind of tail end thing? It's this old proverb in China, and it essentially goes along the lines of like, the saddest feeling in the world is to grow the desire to take care of your parents, only to realize they're no longer there. So this proverb in Chinese culture, I'm like, Jesus Christ.

• 1:19:11Chris Williamson?

  Jared, you ever considered that you might have a drinking problem? I don't consider a lot, Chris. Well, you drank an entire case of Athletic Brewing Co. last night. But they're non-alcoholic. And that's not a problem? Sorry, man. I just kept chugging, waiting for the regret to creep in. Never happened. See, most people, like Jared, don't want to change what they drink. They just don't want the next day to be a complete write-off. And that is why I'm such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co. They make the best NA brews on the planet.

• 1:19:46Chris Williamson?

  You can find Athletic Brewing Co.'s best selling lineup at grocery or liquor stores near you, or best option, get a full variety pack of four flavors shipped direct to your door. Right now, get 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the description below, or heading to athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom and using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom at modern wisdom at checkout. Near beer. Terms and conditions apply. Athletic Brewing Company, fit for all times. Bottoms up.

• 1:20:18Chris Williamson?

  There's a great line that I came across. I wanted to read to you guys. It's from Sal Higune. It says, "You'll regret it if you get married. You'll regret it if you don't get married. You'll regret it if you have kids, and you'll regret it if you don't." Kierkegaard said this 200 years ago as follows, "Whatever you choose, you'll regret it, because the problem isn't in your choices, it's in romanticizing your life."

• 1:20:37Speaker 02

  Grass is always greener.

• 1:20:38Chris Williamson?

  "A person always finds an untraveled path alluring and mysterious. That's why the issue isn't making the right choice, it's choosing and deciding which regret you'll live with." And that was that Douglas Murray line, "In life, we must choose our regrets." And you go, okay, in advance of a big decision, you might want to think, "Which decision do I want to live with?" But the better question is, "Which regret could I not bear living with?"

• 1:21:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:02Chris Williamson?

  That's the one.

• 1:21:02Speaker 02

  It's a little like if you're someone who you can't be too perfectionist about finding your life partner. It's like, which flawed person and flawed relationship are you going to choose? And each one is going to have a different set of flaws. And I think in both of these cases, internalizing that is very helpful, because it can make you realize that if I have regrets, it doesn't mean something horribly wrong happened. If this, if marriage is imperfect, it doesn't mean I did something wrong. Like, it's, and so it can help you accept, which is half the battle. I mean, it's like, regret is only really painful when you feel like, "I wish I could, I made a huge mistake," as opposed to like, "This is part of life."

• 1:21:40Chris Williamson?

  This is a call that I made. Yeah. So, thinking about pendulums swinging in one direction or the other, going from, "We were worried about binge drinking in 2010 when I wrote my dissertation, and now in 2026, we're worried about sobriety culture coming and taking away the way that people are able to communicate and spend time and socialize." An equivalent for this, I think, and I've messaged Scott Galloway about this too, as a famously unmarried man in his 30s.

• 1:22:04Chris Williamson?

  The conversation of you don't need to think that deeply about your life partner to now a lot of the biggest reels that Scott's done and and Warren Buffett, the single most important decision that you're going to make in your life is your life partner. This is a piece of advice that distributes unevenly to people. It makes people who are already prone to overthinking feel even more pressure. Meanwhile, the people that were just blasé making decisions on vibes are just coasting through it and it's applying even more pressure. I think this is it's a noble insight, which is, hey, this is an important decision. And if you choose, if you choose wrong, it can make your life hell. But the don't choose wrong turns into, I must perfect. I must, I must become a perfectionist in choosing right.

• 1:22:49Chris Williamson?

  And it creates paralysis of analysis. This is David Epstein's new book, Inside the Box. Fucking money, by the way, really, really good.

• 1:22:55Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's really good.

• 1:22:56Chris Williamson?

  But yeah, that, that, that.

• 1:22:58Tim Ferriss?

  What's the basic premise?

• 1:23:00Chris Williamson?

  That.

• 1:23:00Tim Ferriss?

  I have an old one to recommend too.

• 1:23:02Chris Williamson?

  Constraints breed creativity.

• 1:23:05Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:23:06Chris Williamson?

  If, if, I mean, he, he is really great at bringing stories together, but he has this, uh, what's it called? The Magic Company? What was that? It was all of the engineers from Apple. And it was the, the first ever Goldman Sachs idea IPO. So they didn't even have a product, but they just had such an amazing team that they IPO just with ideas. And they were able to do, they had unlimited budget, they'd IPO'd before they had a product. And he gives this example of a story where they were going to create basically the iPhone before the iPhone. And one of the engineers said, I'm going to run it from nineteen oh four. Let's say it was going to be a hundred years, something like that, let's say. And another engineering team came in and said, well, why do it from then? Why not do it from further back?

• 1:23:51Chris Williamson?

  Cause people might be doing, using apps for historical recording and stuff. He said, okay, well, I'll do it from year zero and we'll get up to two thousand and four, whenever it is. And another team came in and said, well, that's stupid. Why don't you go all the way back to the beginning of time so that we've got a full calendar that people can, and it ended up what could have been four lines of code turned into this huge unwieldy project.

• 1:24:09Tim Ferriss?

  This is general magic.

• 1:24:10Chris Williamson?

  If you don't.

• 1:24:11Tim Ferriss?

  Is the company.

• 1:24:11Chris Williamson?

  General magic, that was it.

• 1:24:12Tim Ferriss?

  There's a great documentary. On this and it's also like, if I can interject for a second, it's like a Yoda Warski's Dune. I don't know if you guys have ever seen this documentary. It's about this ill fated attempt to make a Dune movie, which was just like, I guess it was made by this crazy man named Yoda Warski. And it goes through all these disasters and it didn't work out, but the team ended up being Geiger, who designed the alien. And so on the, the talent density of that failed project was so high, it's hard to believe. This is true of General Magic too, right? You had like very, very young Tony Fadell, who went on to create the iPod and the iPhone. You've got a person who went on to create Android.

• 1:24:57Tim Ferriss?

  It's, it's kind of nuts. And despite that, or in this, I say, in spite of, in spite of having this incredible talent density. It's like, if you don't have constraints, well, if you have a lot of brilliant people, a lot of ideas, that could actually be a fatal recipe.

• 1:25:13Chris Williamson?

  Correct. Yeah. Constraints.

• 1:25:14Speaker 02

  This is another, we say, coming with the term is really important. Well, it's also just like, I don't know, just getting a certain like,

• 1:25:23Speaker 02

  anchor concept that can help anchor your rationality. So like, one of the things I've always thought about with relationships for perfection, because I'm, I'm like this. And in one of the times when I was able to kind of like finally, you know,

• 1:25:36Chris Williamson?

  Pull the pin.

• 1:25:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, is because I, I think I grew up a little bit and was in enough relationships. And I was like, again, the fact that like every, they're all flawed, every single one. So, but you also don't want to be like, well, they're all flawed. So this relationship is fine, and it's actually really bad, like, right? So it's, it's more like, what are of there, if there's 30 things you would love to have in a partner, you're a hundred percent going to be missing a bunch of those in every partner. But what are your deal breakers? Like actually think about two or three or four, don't get too much with these, that are like, this is critical to me. Like I, I, I will not marry someone who does not, you know, whatever.

• 1:26:12Chris Williamson?

  I was gonna say on both sides of the fence, because there can be things that you must not have.

• 1:26:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:26:16Chris Williamson?

  And things that you must have.

• 1:26:17Speaker 02

  Exactly. And.

• 1:26:20Speaker 02

  And I think it's a mistake. It's not being perfectionist enough to sacrifice on those deal breakers. And I think it's being way too much of a perfectionist to be like, ah, you know, it's like, she's not, you know, she doesn't love to jam music with me. And I did that with my previous girlfriend. And that's a must. Like, you can't have a ton of those, or you're never gonna ever, no one's ever gonna be enough.

• 1:26:37Chris Williamson?

  One of the biggest issues in relationships that people don't talk about enough are bedtime lag issues. Like, if you don't go to bed and wake up within maybe an hour of your partner, I think that there's a lot that you're missing. Like, just literally, you're missing out on a lot of time together. But I think it causes an awful lot of friction between you and your partner. Because like, you're gonna be woken up when they get into bed, they're gonna be woken up when you get out of bed. Sleep's really important, there's health effects, gonna begin to resent them if they come in at a different time. Maybe some people are laissez faire enough, or a deep enough sleeper that it doesn't really matter. But I think aligning the sleep rhythm is probably one of the sort of unseen, that should be a, in order to get into the conversation, that's probably across the board, a piece of advice that most people should.

• 1:27:21Tim Ferriss?

  I'll play devil's advocate, just because I have historically had very strange.

• 1:27:25Chris Williamson?

  Big sleep gap relationship?

• 1:27:26Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, in some very good relationships, including my current relationship, but it's a few hours, I would say. Very often, it's like one to two hour gap, she'll get up before I do. I think it can work if you are okay with going to bed at different times. Also, as soon as you have a puppy or a child, like, you're on the same schedule.

• 1:27:46Speaker 02

  Right. Because, or if someone's doing the morning, the other person's gonna sleep, so actually it's.

• 1:27:50Chris Williamson?

  Might actually be adaptive.

• 1:27:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:52Chris Williamson?

  If you've got someone that goes to bed at three in the morning typically, and you're like, okay, well, you're obviously gonna do the night shift up until three. And then if your missus is usually getting up at five, it's like, all right, we'll just run that back a little bit earlier and then.

• 1:28:02Speaker 02

  I usually mope a little later, and I'll usually like, close down the house and like, clean up the kitchen a little bit, and like, turn off all the lights, and like, take the dog out. And then, like, she'll be more likely to wake up and do morning stuff.

• 1:28:11Chris Williamson?

  Before we move on from terms, we are still struggling to fucking name this podcast series. It's currently Rabbit Hole, which is the, the working title, but we're still struggling. Was it, uh, fuck me, Good Dude's Good Vibe, Rabbit Hole?

• 1:28:24Speaker 02

  Fuck Me's pretty good.

• 1:28:24Chris Williamson?

  Fuck Me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Autism, Fire Up The Autism Engine was another one, obviously. But, uh.

• 1:28:30George Mack?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:31Speaker 02

  What's wrong with this rabbit hole? Describe what we've done today. We've just gone down 20, 20 rabbit holes and meet.

• 1:28:35George Mack?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:36Speaker 02

  You know, underground borough to a different rabbit hole and then come back up.

• 1:28:38George Mack?

  It's funny, the, uh, the power of a name though, right? You know, here's a little, here's a little test for you.

• 1:28:43Speaker 02

  Here we go.

• 1:28:44George Mack?

  Have you ever heard of a book called Women, Love and Relationships?

• 1:28:49Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:28:49George Mack?

  No, because nobody fucking did. Right? So this book released, I think it was in the eighties or the nineties. Sold nothing. So he came along, changed the title and just jazzed it up a little bit. To men are from Mars, women are from Venus. And it was the best selling book of the nineties. And just, it was the basically the same book. Different title.

• 1:29:12Speaker 02

  Well, it's like, uh, was the last time you had Patagonian tooth fish? Not recently, right? Chilean sea bass?

• 1:29:21George Mack?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:21Speaker 02

  Now we're talking.

• 1:29:23Chris Williamson?

  Question. Given that we've got, we've got two authors and one fledgling author at the table. What is a book that you think is amazing, but failed because of its name?

• 1:29:33George Mack?

  Ooh, great question.

• 1:29:40Chris Williamson?

  So mine, my, my kind of go to for this is a little bit niche, but it's Mate by Tucker Max and Jeffrey Miller. To become the man women want, the evolutionary psychology inspired dating book for men.

• 1:29:53Speaker 02

  Is that a bad title or is this too generic?

• 1:29:55Chris Williamson?

  It, I just think it should have done, because Models by Mark Manson. Also, I reckon had you have given it a little bit more magic would have been, because it's still great. And it sold like relatively well, but could have been significantly better for what it was. Mate by Tucker Max and Jeffrey Miller is one of the best, if not the best book for guys to understand. Understand how women think, understand what their fears are. It's very like sort of both sides of the spectrum in terms of being understanding about women, being pro men without being too apologetic. And it fucking rips. And I think they even renamed it once. I'm not sure why, uh, but it's, that's just one that comes to mind. Fuck, that book was so good. And it, it didn't take off and I feel like there was a big unlock in, in the name.

• 1:30:36Speaker 02

  I think with a book, it helps. I think with like certain things like a company or even like a blog, maybe it's like, like XKCD. I think if I were advising my friend before that started, I would have been like, no one's, it's just four random letters.

• 1:30:49George Mack?

  Explain, explain what that is.

• 1:30:50Speaker 02

  Someone will be like, you should, you should read that blog. It has the four letters and they'll be like, what? It's obviously a massive success.

• 1:30:57Tim Ferriss?

  You want to explain what it is for people?

• 1:30:59Speaker 02

  Um, X K C D is Randall Monroe's. Uh, he's this, you know, brilliant comic. He's a, you know, he does a, he does a three comic Monday, Wednesday, Friday. He also puts out books.

• 1:31:06Tim Ferriss?

  It's like comic strip.

• 1:31:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a comic strip, but it's like nerdy and science and he's just, it's amazing. Um, and, uh, it has a

• 1:31:13Tim Ferriss?

  Been around forever.

• 1:31:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, cult following. Yeah, he's been doing it forever. And, um, and he probably gets more reads than like anything and like the, you know, the comics of the newspapers these days. I mean, he's probably bigger than, um, but, um, so I think, although maybe the fact that not everyone's heard of him, maybe, maybe it would be even bigger. I mean, that, that's, that's true. I don't know. Uh, I, I think I say, people say, what's your blog name? Wait, but why? And they go, what? And I'm like, it's, I'm sorry. And it's, I just was looking on, I was looking on, uh, GoDaddy and I was like, I need a domain that has a dot com. And I had like my 100th idea. And I was like, okay, that's one. And I had like a small list of ones that actually had dot coms. And I was like, sure.

• 1:31:51Speaker 02

  I think like it, it names in certain situations are overrated. I think with books, probably not. I think books maybe is something that it's a, but I think, you know, I think company names, I think if, I think a lot of really dumb company names.

• 1:32:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I think it depends a lot on the nature of the company. I'm literally having this conversation with one startup right now, like whether to keep or change. And in their case, I don't think it matters because they're B to B and selling in a very like long sales cycle to sophisticated buyers as opposed to a product that is like B to C, where it's like a consumer facing product where you want people to be able to easily say, hey, have you tried X? And if they can't remember X, you're kind of dead in the water. Uh, I do have a book example. There are a lot of books that didn't do particularly well, but I don't think it was solely due to the title. This one I think might be title related.

• 1:32:44Tim Ferriss?

  I've probably sold half the copies that this book has sold in total at this point. Cause I've talked about it and I have a bookshelf in my guest bedroom with just this book for people to yank, but awareness.

• 1:32:56Speaker 02

  Anthony DeMello.

• 1:32:57Tim Ferriss?

  Anthony DeMello. Yeah. And it's got, you know, the subtitles, the perils and opportunities of reality. That's the better subtitle. They, they changed the subtitle to conversations with the masters. So it makes no sense to me because it's a conversation with one guy and transcribed, uh, conversations. But, uh, that book, if I had to pick. One book to read on an annual basis, that would probably be the one. I mean, I have some other close runner ups, but that that one for sure. And it's so short.

• 1:33:25George Mack?

  Why? What's the kind of reflection?

• 1:33:27Tim Ferriss?

  But I would say this to the, I mean, it is honing your ability to observe your own thinking and your own state. And without that meta ability, I think you're

• 1:33:43Tim Ferriss?

  you're striving to develop other faculties is severely, if not wholly handicapped, right? You have to be able to sort of observe to the extent that you can without enhancement. There are certain drugs and so on that help with this or practices, like different types of meditation. But without any augmentation, it's very hard to look at your operating system, right? What are the biases? What are the weights? Almost as if you were an AI model, right? Like what has been built into like the confirmation bias and the narratives over time that you inherited from parents or whoever it might be, that have not actually been stress tested, that you didn't arrive at through any type of firsthand experience, or maybe there was one outlying experience that was tremendously painful.

• 1:34:25Tim Ferriss?

  And therefore you lived from that point forward for 15 years with this filter on reality, which actually isn't defensible, but it's sitting in the background, governing how you make decisions. And it's incredibly colloquial. It's lectures that were transcribed and cleaned up. And it's unforgiving in its delivery. It's very harsh. So some people don't like it. It's very in your face in some ways, but I have had so many people, friends of mine, including people who are very, very accomplished, either get either get more done

• 1:35:04Tim Ferriss?

  or I feel like they have removed like gauze from their eyes or pain from their life, or all of the above after reading this book, just like 150 pages.

• 1:35:15George Mack?

  It's called Awareness.

• 1:35:15Tim Ferriss?

  Awareness. It's a red cover by Anthony DeMello. He was a Jesuit priest, also a psychotherapist. And he's pulling from a lot of different traditions, but it's, it's very pithy. You would, I mean, I think all you guys would like it, but I was thinking of you, George, because of the naming, right? His.

• 1:35:35Tim Ferriss?

  Sort of idea handles that you then carry forward the stories that he tells. I mean, I've read it like 20 times. So of course I've had some reps, but even after one reading, the stories that stick with people are so compelling and funny. It's a funny book. It's a really sticky, effective book.

• 1:35:54Chris Williamson?

  I think that Winzip file of I say that one word and it unlocks this entire, you know, we, I still have an obsession with language. I've always loved language since I was a kid. And one of the problems, if you do 1,100 podcast episodes where you're kind of obsessed with language is you can sometimes get nerdy on it. And you can start aphorism maxing, maxim maxing. And, uh, but for me, it's really important if I've got a single sentence that explains a huge concept. One of the best ones I came up with last year was idea, uh, advice hyper responders. So advice doesn't land evenly. People who have a predisposition toward it tend to take it on board a lot. While the people that didn't already pay attention to it just coast past unchanged. I'm like, fuck, like that explains so much of why certain people have their traits exaggerated.

• 1:36:39Chris Williamson?

  While the people that the advice is actually for, like the prescription to work harder, seems to be absorbed much more by people who are already working too hard than people who don't work hard enough. And fuck, that now explains, it opens up this entire world for me. And it was a term that I needed for myself. And that if you're a super successful author who's got like a ton of readers and distributes all of this stuff out, like you can move the entire sort of cognitive topography of everybody that comes into contact with it. And then people who don't even know the book or don't even know where it comes from.

• 1:37:11Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, spreads even bigger than the readers.

• 1:37:13Chris Williamson?

  Meme being one of them catches on to and starts to change the world.

• 1:37:17George Mack?

  For the advice hyper responder, was there any examples of some maybe bad advice that you hyper responded to, and then some good advice that you? Have ignored or still ignored to this day?

• 1:37:28Chris Williamson?

  I think the one about working harder is a good example of that as a person whose proclivity predisposition was always to lean into, I'm not doing enough. I should be working more. I need to be more diligent. I already pay way too much attention to stuff. And it sounded to me like type A advice for type B people. I just took that advice on for me as a type A person. And it made it wasn't my imbalances as opposed to correcting them. But it's the thing that's interesting about that, the type A advice for type B people, or type A people have type B problems and type B people have type A problems. The reason that's particularly interesting is that on average, maybe more people do need David Goggins screaming in their face to go harder than Eckhart Tolle whispering in their ear that they're already enough.

• 1:38:12Chris Williamson?

  Perhaps that across the whole world, it would be better for more people to pay more attention and work harder. But for a certain cohort of people, mostly people that listen to podcasts like this one, they actually need to hear the opposite message. They need to be rest day maxing, not work day maxing. Rest maxing.

• 1:38:29Speaker 02

  That ties into awareness. I mean, that's where I think like the most important possible skill you can develop is self-awareness and just being able to see, I go too far here. I'm not going to listen to that advice. And if you, if you see that about yourself, you're not going to fall into that trap as much.

• 1:38:43Chris Williamson?

  One of the problems with that prescription, though, is that people who are already self-aware will take more self-awareness on.

• 1:38:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then too much self-awareness is not great.

• 1:38:50Chris Williamson?

  Is restricting.

• 1:38:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're too self-conscious in everything you do.

• 1:38:54Chris Williamson?

  Bingo.

• 1:38:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:38:54Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's true.

• 1:38:56George Mack?

  Yeah. You also, probably self-awareness is, yeah, when you think too much about yourself. One of the exercises I was trying to write about the other day for the book. It's interesting, little thought experiment for you two gentlemen, which is imagine we have.

• 1:39:10Chris Williamson?

  Gentlemen, hold on now.

• 1:39:13George Mack?

  Imagine we have a room here, okay? And there's 10 people inside the room. But one of them is secretly miserable, but they're keeping it together. Everybody else is moderately happy.

• 1:39:25George Mack?

  Now, think of everybody in your life that you know. Who do you think you could send in that room and have the best probability of figuring it out?

• 1:39:32Speaker 02

  Figuring out which one?

• 1:39:33George Mack?

  And who would be the worst? Obviously, don't answer the worst one publicly. But who, but if you think of those two people in your head, who would be the best person?

• 1:39:40Speaker 02

  Esther Perel.

• 1:39:41George Mack?

  Why? What is it about them?

• 1:39:43Speaker 02

  I don't know. I just feel like she is so unbelievably perceptive of, and I mean, I know this, I mean, of her talks and stuff, but I know her personally. And I just feel like she just like sees what I'm actually trying to say, or what I'm actually feeling like really, really well. Which is part of why I think she's so magnetic in her.

• 1:40:00Tim Ferriss?

  Also an amazing podcast.

• 1:40:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:01Tim Ferriss?

  Couples work.

• 1:40:02Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Which is, I mean, and that's who's, who's better at doing a podcast with couples? Couples therapy is usually this person who barely knows you two can, within a few minutes, start to see stuff that you don't see with each other. It's like, that's incredible power.

• 1:40:17Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. They're, they're also, I mean, I would think of, for instance, my friend, Kevin Rose, super close friend, serial entrepreneur, amazing investor, great guy. EQ off the charts, off the charts. So he would walk in and observe the room. And I think with millions of years of evolution tilting in his favor, I don't think it's necessarily something he could verbalize, but he would pick it out.

• 1:40:40George Mack?

  It's an interesting idea of, is it a trainable skill? What's also interesting is that you could kind of replace secretly miserable person with psychopath, con man, having an affair. And you'd probably pick loosely the same people to be able to go in to do that. And it appears that it's closely related to theory of mind, which seems to come online at like four years old. So a three-year-old almost has no theory of mind. They can't understand that Tim has thoughts or thinks differently to me. And it happens at four years old.

• 1:41:11Speaker 02

  I think that's when lying starts as well.

• 1:41:13George Mack?

  Yes. So this ability to be able to think, oh, think how Tim thinks, and then sometimes think how Tim's thinking.

• 1:41:20Speaker 02

  You do not want to do it.

• 1:41:21George Mack?

  I'm thinking, yeah, I know.

• 1:41:22Speaker 02

  It's funny watching up close, like it, there's a, there's stages before that. First is like, I am the only person and everyone else is like a, is like a here from my, my, everyone's a figment of my imagination. And then there starts to be like, oh, like other people are. Here and they're real, like they actually have their own consciousness, but they're all here for me. They're all here. And then there starts to be like a kid and everyone smiles at you in the grocery store and it's all, everyone's doing their own thing. They're not here for me, but everyone likes me. Everyone's good. Everyone loves me. You know, and then you start to realize like, oh, I'm just a random person and like I'm not a kid anymore. And people aren't like all smiling. First existential crisis. Yeah. About five years old. And actually, there's a lot of theories, I forget who originally, but it's, you know, this oceanic feeling that you have when you think

• 1:42:08Speaker 02

  everyone is there for you and that everyone loves you and everyone knows you is some people get, cannot let that go and the desire, the deep desire some people have for fame is forever chasing. Oceanic. Yeah, the oceanic feeling is this feeling this like this, you know, that you're in this ocean of like love and. And then later you feel this very cold loneliness and fame is like, if I could be famous and everyone knows me again. And everyone loves me and I'm admired, you know, and it's this, and I think a lot of people have a real like 13 to 15 year olds have like this. A lot of the people go through, I think I went through this at that age, like this, you want fame more than anything in the world because it's the ultimate like being popular in school, but like it's like them, you know, and then most people grow out of that, but I think some people don't.

• 1:42:55Tim Ferriss?

  To your question about trainability, I think, I think it is trainable, but different people have better raw materials for some people, right? It's like vertical jump, muscle mass, like sure, you can improve on those metrics a lot with really thoughtful training. And I think that's true, but some people just get it. And I think it goes beyond human to human interactions too, right? Like I'm very, uh, very, very interested in dog training and mammal training writ large actually goes beyond mammal training. That's like a whole.

• 1:43:25Speaker 02

  Why?

• 1:43:26Tim Ferriss?

  Because I think that it's.

• 1:43:31Tim Ferriss?

  Inter-species communication, however primitive it might be, is fascinating in and of itself. I think that, I mean, dogs in particular, like the relationship between dogs and humans is kind of crazy. Like, if you start to look past the familiarity of seeing dogs everywhere, like, yeah, dogs. And you're like, wait a second.

• 1:43:51Tim Ferriss?

  Think about how unusual it is that we have effectively co-evolved over time.

• 1:43:55Chris Williamson?

  There's an animal that lives in my house.

• 1:43:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's an animal that lives in your house. Actually, like, this is like, this is like a companion slash guardian. I grew up with four cats. I love, look, cats are great, but like, cats are animals that live in your house. Dogs are sort of in a separate category if they're trained. And I think a certain, different type of awareness and consciousness comes online for dogs vis a vis training. As you develop kind of labels for different things.

• 1:44:23Tim Ferriss?

  So for, for all of those reasons, but it extends to equine training. And how that could be applied, like, animal interactions to people with autism or PTSD. Like, you see some wild stuff, and this doesn't end up being limited to, to, to horses. For instance, in the case of the therapy, you, I've seen instances, I volunteered at a wolf sanctuary in Colorado for a period of time, which is a long story. But wolves that have either been injured, trapped by ranchers, or raised in captivity, which is a terrible idea. Please, people, don't get, like, wolf dogs or anything like that. It's really, it's really, really awful on a lot of levels. But there are these ambassador wolves that they have.

• 1:45:05Tim Ferriss?

  I think it's just called Mission Wolf in Colorado, if people want to look at it and possibly support it. But these civilians can come in and visit and, like, donate money if they want. And the ambassador wolves will go straight up to people who are seemingly having the most pain in the room. It's weird.

• 1:45:22Chris Williamson?

  No way.

• 1:45:23Tim Ferriss?

  It's weird. Yeah, or the people who are most withdrawn, like autistic and autistic kids and things like that. And it just raises a lot of really fascinating questions.

• 1:45:32Chris Williamson?

  I've seen, I've seen some videos of dogs that are there to stop seizures. If people are about to fall and have seizures, maybe people have got epilepsy, epilepsy in these dogs.

• 1:45:41Tim Ferriss?

  They're giving out some pheromones. They can use them for autoimmune disorders.

• 1:45:45Chris Williamson?

  They jump up before someone has the collapse. It's able to be there and it jumps up and, because when they're shaking, the dog sort of lies on them like a weighted blanket or make sure that they're not going to fall over. And there was a woman that was taking Some food, there's a, I don't know why there's a video, maybe it was a Ring doorbell camera, like internal doorbell camera or something. And she's taking food out of the oven and the dog jumps up and pulls her back. So you know, when you sort of crouching down, she's already halfway down, grabs her in the back of the collar and pulls her to the ground and lies on her. And she's fine and she's thinking, what is this dog doing? Is it okay? Is there something that's going to go on? And then.

• 1:46:20Tim Ferriss?

  Seizure.

• 1:46:21Chris Williamson?

  She has a seizure.

• 1:46:22Tim Ferriss?

  Incredible.

• 1:46:22Chris Williamson?

  After the dog's been there.

• 1:46:24Tim Ferriss?

  So.

• 1:46:24Chris Williamson?

  Insane.

• 1:46:25Tim Ferriss?

  So this raises, yeah, I mean, if we want to get into like crazy town territory.

• 1:46:29Chris Williamson?

  Let's go, Tim.

• 1:46:30Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I'll do, let me, let me do non crazy town and then we'll segue to crazy town. So the non crazy town is the reason I bring up the dogs is that you will, I, I've noticed that the same people who have the highest EQ around humans often have the highest EQ around animals. Right? So they like intuitively know how to interact with animals or be guarded around the right type of animals. Say a dog that's really quiet may actually be really afraid and could be aggressive. Or they can read that type of body language, even though it's a different species. Whereas some people have no awareness, right? They'll walk up to a dog that is clearly uncomfortable and they'll come top down to like put their hand on the dog's head. It's just like, oh my God, you're just asking for trouble or they're not paying any attention

• 1:47:15Tim Ferriss?

  to their kids. Like, why does so many little girls have dog bites on the faces? Because little boys are kind of assholes and they like to poke dogs and stuff, but little girls like to hug dogs around the face and neck. Dogs don't like that, right? And parents aren't paying attention. So it's not actually necessarily the dog's fault. It's the parents' fault. So I think that EQ is not limited to human to human.

• 1:47:39Tim Ferriss?

  And that just relates to the theory of mind stuff, which maybe, maybe the theory of mind can be expanded to dogs.

• 1:47:45Chris Williamson?

  Dogs are like a pattern recognition machines on four legs. I once heard something and that's part of why I, I think like, I noticed with my dog, like she can, if I'm about to leave, but I haven't even started getting ready yet, she can tell something's different the way he's, you know?

• 1:47:58Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:59Chris Williamson?

  But, but you know, I, I'm interested in dog training. I'm not a good dog trainer. My dog is not very well trained, but I.

• 1:48:06Speaker 02

  Training a mammal will make you realize

• 1:48:12Speaker 02

  an important skill, which is you are a mammal. And your brain, if you treat, treat your brain like a dog. And great things can happen. You just become a behaviorist. Yeah, well, because you're, you know, the idea that, well, I'm a person. It's like, no, no, you have a, you might be a person with like, you know, this higher consciousness. In your head is a mammal brain.

• 1:48:33Tim Ferriss?

  And it teaches you about how to train yourself.

• 1:48:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:48:37Tim Ferriss?

  Seinfeld talks about this in Training His Mind Like A Dumb Little Puppy.

• 1:48:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:42Tim Ferriss?

  And I shouldn't say dumb little puppy. It's just like a blank slate puppy. He doesn't know what to do and whatnot.

• 1:48:46Speaker 02

  It's a primate brain. We're all like, this consciousness is stuck inside of a, of an ancient primate. I mean, that's what it is. And so it's like, if you realize that and you're like, like you said, you want to have positive, you want to have things on your desk that encourage, I mean, that's, what is that? That's because you're a dumb primate that is going to be the person sitting at the desk. How else have you applied this behaviorist dog training lens to yourself? I mean, ju- just, just, yeah.

• 1:49:10Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, really, it's, it's, so I should say, like, if we're talking about like BF Skinner and Skinner boxes, like, we're getting, you can get into territory where you, you don't, you basically assume, and I'm simplifying here, that something does not exist if you can't observe it externally, right? But this is how you get into like, oh, animals don't feel pain. Oh, blah, blah, which by the way, we assumed about infants for a very long time.

• 1:49:34Speaker 02

  It's not that.

• 1:49:34Tim Ferriss?

  It's not that long ago that people were operating on infants without anesthesia. Right? Crazy. So, I, I mean, there, there, I'm careful with the Skinner stuff, but when you get into like classical conditioning, operating conditioning, there's an amazing book called Don't Shoot The Dog, which has terrible title. Maybe this is a good example of a book that failed. Don't Shoot The Dog, but it's written by this woman, Karen Pryor, who worked in training marine mammals, right? Dolphins and so on. And a lot, I think she and her colleague also worked with the military, like training cats, like the military's trained cockroaches to like turn light switches on and off. I mean, this is, this is not science fiction. This is real stuff.

• 1:50:15Speaker 02

  Like a crazy town.

• 1:50:16Tim Ferriss?

  So it's like, how do you do that? Right? Oh, yeah, I'm not even, I'm just getting warmed up. Oh, yeah. But this is well documented. Like, that's, that's not fiction. Sidebar, the mosquito sized or the fly sized drones out of China, right? I don't know if you guys have seen these videos. Holy shit, terrifying. Yeah, anyway, yeah, where's Neil Stephenson? We need him to make some predictions, but

• 1:50:37Tim Ferriss?

  took myself completely off the rails.

• 1:50:40Chris Williamson?

  Don't shoot the dog.

• 1:50:41Tim Ferriss?

  Don't shoot the dog. Karen Pryor, when you're training, say a marine mammal, right? Okay. Dolphin doesn't do what you want to do. You can't hit it with a rolled up newspaper. You can't chastise the dolphin, just swims away from you, right? So you end up focusing on positive reinforcement, right? Providing rewards for the behavior that you're trying to shape. And behavioral shaping is also just an interesting concept I could explain in a second. And she started using different auditory cues and that converted into clicker training for dogs. So to teach a dog what to do or not do.

• 1:51:17Chris Williamson?

  Hang on, sorry. The training of dolphins is where the clicker for dogs comes from.

• 1:51:22Tim Ferriss?

  Yes, from aquatic mammals.

• 1:51:24Chris Williamson?

  No fucking way.

• 1:51:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, because they would use.

• 1:51:26Chris Williamson?

  We're clicking at dogs because we clicked at dolphins.

• 1:51:29Tim Ferriss?

  They used, I think they used whistles, but it's the same idea. And because you're trying to indicate to this dog, and this applies to humans too, like what is the right behavior? What is the wrong behavior? But for instance, like the dog shits in the house, you come home two hours later and then you punish the dog. It's so temporally dislocated, the dog has no idea. Right? It's, it's not effective. It's just going to make the dog less likely to offer behaviors because it doesn't know when it's going to get punished, right? And I, look, I understand approaches to e-collars and I think they have their place and so on, but this is just to say that when you start digging into this and you start thinking about behavioral shaping. So I'll give an example of behavioral shaping, a simple example.

• 1:52:15Tim Ferriss?

  And look, I'm not a professional dog trainer, but I do find it really interesting. So for instance, if you're trying to get a dog to sit is really easy. But if you have a treat, right? So you're using a lure. And you start with a motion that's, let's say the dog's right here, it's standing and you do this, you push it back behind its head, it sits down to get its mouth closer to the tree. Right. And then over time, you lose the treat because now it has figured out how this dance works. And then you get to a point where you're using like the international sign language for sit. And then you're, then you start to pair that with sit and then this, and then you can actually remove the manual signal altogether and just use the ruble cue.

• 1:52:58Tim Ferriss?

  Right. But if you're trying to get like a dog to turn around and do a spin, which is more of like a vanity trick than a safety thing or a functional thing. But as soon as it turns slightly, it might, it's not going to get it on the first go around. You click, you give it a treat. And so you're basically encouraging it to continue that behavior. And you can shape really complex behaviors over time, as long as you're not trying to boil the ocean at once. So how does that pertain to humans? All of it pertains to humans. Whether you're trying to train yourself, whether, you know, as you're building a family, you're thinking about, you know, like you're not going to crate train your kid, although you kind of do, I guess with the crib in a sense. But I think a lot of this applies and people get upset and they're like, oh my God, I can't believe you're comparing a

• 1:53:42Tim Ferriss?

  baby to a dog. And I'm like, guys, evolutionarily speaking, like, we're not that different. I mean, there are some important differences and it's like, yeah, we've got more, you know, white matter and so on, but. Don't breastfeed a dog. Yeah.

• 1:54:01Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I've been fostering a dog for the last six months who was going to get euthanized. She was on the, she was on the street and so it's been, so I've been very much in the thick of it with a dog that was effectively a wild animal. Wow. Off the streets. A really adorable dog. Looks to be, haven't done the genetic testing, but like an Anatolian shepherd mix. So very tawny colored with a black muzzle.

• 1:54:30Speaker 02

  This isn't the one that I meant, no, that's your.

• 1:54:31Tim Ferriss?

  The different dog, different dog, yeah. The rear feet are slightly externally rotated, so could be some Great Pyrenees in there. But much smaller, the Anatolian Shepherds can get huge. They're found in Turkey, they're found in the Caucasus region. They can get up to like 150 pounds, 200 pounds, at least 150, they're huge. She's a lot smaller, she's about 60 pounds. So I would guess that she's a mix with something else, possibly German Shepherd or Belgian Shepherd, something like that.

• 1:55:03Tim Ferriss?

  But man, when you're starting with something that is really feral, it's different.

• 1:55:09Speaker 02

  Well, and what's the original dog trainer? Like the, the actual dog trainer is the dog's brain offering dopamine treats. So when you give food, it's not the food, it's the dopamine hit that the brain gives that makes the dog want it. So this is what, before humans were there to train dogs, animals across the animal kingdom, for millions of years have been trained by their genes to act a certain way using dopamine treats.

• 1:55:36Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:37Speaker 02

  And then, and so it's just, and then so all we're doing is leveraging this system that's already in place in the dog's brain. And we're saying, oh, we can, we can get the brain to do a dopamine hit when, and tie that, that, and then the dog can tie that hit to this behavior. Instead of the thing it's programmed to be tied to, which is get food.

• 1:55:55Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, so a big part of it is figuring out, right? Because humans have been selectively breeding dogs into all these weird shapes for millennia.

• 1:56:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:01Tim Ferriss?

  Is what does this dog respond to?

• 1:56:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:04Tim Ferriss?

  Because some dogs are really food driven.

• 1:56:06Speaker 02

  But then, then your brain is also giving you dopamine treats.

• 1:56:10Tim Ferriss?

  Sure.

• 1:56:10Speaker 02

  And this is what social media platforms do, is they are geared towards flooding your brain with dopamine treats when you give it attention and therefore add dollars.

• 1:56:21Tim Ferriss?

  Well, we also think of ourselves as like the. Masters of the universe, but it's like, to what extent did we domesticate certain plants? And to what extent did they domesticate us for propagation, right? I mean, it's like, it's, it's, it's a fun question.

• 1:56:34Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:56:35Chris Williamson?

  More of the tumble down the.

• 1:56:36Tim Ferriss?

  Well, it's just, yeah, I mean, it's, it's just like, if you look at like wheat, corn, soy, et cetera. I mean, they've been very effective at propagating themselves as a species. And I don't want to attribute like anthropomorphizing the.

• 1:56:49Speaker 02

  Wheat.

• 1:56:50Tim Ferriss?

  The, the wheat necessarily, but just from an evolutionary impact, just from a evolutionary and sort of propagation imperative, it's like, how did they end up being so ubiquitous? I just think it's a fun question to poke around.

• 1:57:05Speaker 02

  Well, when I was studying like history and you're looking at, oh, we domesticated not just plants. We domesticated the horse, we domesticated the dog. And now the cat, the modern cow, the modern, you know, house dog, they couldn't survive in the wild because they've been domesticated. So now they rely on this artificial structure. And then I, you know, you read more about humans and oh shit, what a civilization. We domesticated ourselves.

• 1:57:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:29Speaker 02

  We cannot survive as if you bring us back to 50,000 B.C. Pluck any, I mean, maybe you're like one of these people that might, most of people I know, we would die. We don't, we're not, our natural habitat, we cannot live in it, just like the, the Maltese cannot live out in the natural wolf habit habitat. We can't live there because we domesticated ourselves. And this is one of these weird things where we now live within this structure that we only can live in, just like a house, it's like a, a dog can only live in a human house, a dog pet. We can only live in this civilizational house. None of us know how, again, very few of us know how to hunt and, and truly gather and do the things.

• 1:58:05Chris Williamson?

  Would that not be different slightly that we have like genetically anatomically in terms of our features and our functions, humans are not too dissimilar to what would have been around 50,000 years ago, but dogs would be very different to what was around previously. If we had been born back then.

• 1:58:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:58:21Chris Williamson?

  Culture would have been.

• 1:58:22Speaker 02

  We haven't gone to the full extent that yes, that, that is that, I mean, I'm sure there are some little changes, but yes, like maybe we're less aggressive than we would need to be back then or something like that. But you're right, we haven't domesticated our, our biology. But when we are now raised in this world, we have totally domesticated ourselves psychologically and intellectually and just in the skills we have. And it just, it kind of.

• 1:58:48Speaker 02

  You know, it just it explains a lot and then you see interesting clashes back in, you know, when first civilizations were developing where you have these wild people, essentially, clashing with domesticated people. And that doesn't always go, you know, sometimes the weapons got good enough eventually that the domesticated people couldn't be fucked with. But for a long time, these, you know, stephords, Mongols and others, you know, whatever they are, the Huns and many, many others, would come down with no technology at all, but they were essentially wild people. Again, they had horses.

• 1:59:22Tim Ferriss?

  Except for horseback archers.

• 1:59:23Speaker 02

  Yes, they had horses.

• 1:59:24Tim Ferriss?

  They were pretty good.

• 1:59:25Speaker 02

  They had horses, but like on the wild domesticated scale, they weren't very far. And when they would clash, it wasn't just that they were really great with their weapons. They had this level of kind of wild brutality and, you know, which, you know, and kind of a lack of a civilizational notion of empathy for human lives or whatever are worth something. I mean, the Mongols thought of humans as cattle, as another, you know, whatever, killing them was not a moral wrong. And that was this huge advantage. So it's just interesting to like, and you, you know, and that this is what scares, it's very scary when you think about civilizational collapse, talk about AI apocalypse, things like this. I mean, what's scary is just the power goes out. That means the internet goes out. I mean, you'd see a lot of very

• 2:00:10Speaker 02

  domesticated people in a total chaotic situation and it would be, yeah.

• 2:00:15Tim Ferriss?

  People lose their shit really quickly. I was in San Francisco and I was volunteering for something called NERT, which is the Northern California Emergency Response Team. And it's a volunteer coalition of people who are distributed throughout, in this case, San Francisco. And it's done in collaboration with the Police and Fire Department to train volunteers to respond in the case of a highly destructive earthquake or natural disaster of some type. And I remember in the very beginning, they effectively said, okay, the broader San Francisco area has population of X, whatever it was, 1.2 million people. Guess how many fire engines

• 2:00:58Tim Ferriss?

  we have? And they defined like what a fire engine was and so on. They're like, 10. Okay. So what happens if we have a conflagration, which I think is a square block on fire of X magnitude? And they're like, you should expect to be without water and electricity in these following areas for this period of time, like seven to 10 days. I remember I was living in Glen Park in San Francisco and PG&E had a rolling blackout. I was like, okay, power's out. And for like, the first few hours, people were like wandering around outside. It was Saturday and they're like, hey, your power out? Yeah. Wow. Nice to you, Bob. You know, everyone was very civil. And then it's like, five or six hours. And then

• 2:01:41Tim Ferriss?

  people start to realize, oh, all of my food in my freezer is going to thaw at some point. And I think the water may have also been off. And around like 10 hours post, there's one guy in the neighborhood who had a little Honda generator because he was a burner. He went to Burning Man and he was like, keeping his stuff frozen. And one or two people wandered over and they're like, hey, Joe, could I borrow that after you're done with it? Clearly, he's not going to be done with it because he's using it. And I think it was at like hour 15 or 18, there was an entire throng of people who are these like hyper liberal piece, you know, live long and prosper, live and let live types who are getting openly

• 2:02:24Tim Ferriss?

  hostile about who would get to use his generator next. This is less than 24 hours. So the the basic courtesies of

• 2:02:33Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:02:34Tim Ferriss?

  modern life fall away very quickly.

• 2:02:37Speaker 02

  There's a whole wild person in every human

• 2:02:39Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:40Speaker 02

  that is completely contained in a normal situation. I sometimes I'm in a coffee shop and I see all these people standing in line. So and I just like suddenly have this split screen to like those people like stabbing each other for food. And then it was like, they come back here and I'm like, you know, it's a little It's the, you know, we're, it's all fine when it's fine. And, you know, I don't know.

• 2:02:59Tim Ferriss?

  So let me say a couple of things real quick. So this is gonna sound strange, not, not to like defend, you know, Genghis Khan and, and the steph hordes, but.

• 2:03:08George Mack?

  Still run pillaging for a second.

• 2:03:09Tim Ferriss?

  Not, not pillaging, not pillaging. There's a book, I won't recommend it to be by one of the, I mean, a name everybody would know. There's a book called Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World. It is from like modern postal systems to infrastructure to

• 2:03:26Tim Ferriss?

  religious freedom. They did kill and rape a lot of people. But that book is, is worth reading, especially the first half of it. Just to get a full grasp of the historic implications, the second, just to give an OG podcast shout out Wrath of the Khans by Dan Carlin.

• 2:03:45Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. Listen to every Dan Carlin episode.

• 2:03:48Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, honestly, still maybe the best, no offense, no offense, best podcast of all time, Dan Carlin Hardcore History Wrath of the Khans. It's like a five part series. Each one is four to five hours long.

• 2:03:59Speaker 02

  Oh, so, so many.

• 2:04:00Tim Ferriss?

  Not be bored. You will rip through it.

• 2:04:02Speaker 02

  They are, I mean, this is a whole other topic, but, but like the history podcasts are one of my favorites and he is the, the goat.

• 2:04:08Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I heard that he used to do them in a single take. And if he messed up, he'd just restart again.

• 2:04:13Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, God, it wouldn't surprise me. He's a perfectionist. I mean, that's why they took so long.

• 2:04:16Chris Williamson?

  Still doing, I haven't seen.

• 2:04:18Tim Ferriss?

  I'm not sure, but part of the reason I also love Dan as an example is that wherever you are, whenever you are, you run into whatever industry, these things that are taken to be true because they get repeated a lot, right? You have to post X times per week. You have to do this. You have to do that. No one's going to listen to a podcast that's longer than 60 minutes. And, and Dan was like, I'm gonna do one six hour podcast or five hour podcast once every six months. And he was top of the charts forever, for years upon years.

• 2:04:51Speaker 02

  Not many people are doing A plus work. And when you are, none of those rules apply.

• 2:04:54Tim Ferriss?

  Yes. Yeah, the rules just didn't apply.

• 2:04:56Chris Williamson?

  The first tagline that we found for this is there will always be room for better.

• 2:04:59Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:00Chris Williamson?

  There will always be room for better.

• 2:05:02Speaker 02

  It doesn't matter what the industry is, you know, you know, it just, it's something really great. There's just not very much of it. Doesn't matter how many podcasters, there are very few people are doing A plus.

• 2:05:12George Mack?

  It feels like that's accelerating now. That you, because you have L L Ms churning more shit out. And you're gonna have more video models churning more shit out. It feels that whether there's less quality today, or is there, it just feels maybe there's less quality relative to the, the amount of quantity. So it's also a discovery problem.

• 2:05:30Chris Williamson?

  Encourages everyone to average back to the mean, right? It regresses the, the aggregate of content that's being.

• 2:05:36Speaker 02

  And then people get discouraged and think, oh, there's so much content. Like, what's the point? And it's like, no, no, no. If you can do something great, it will just rise above this and the world will see it.

• 2:05:44Chris Williamson?

  Speaking of novel content, the Japan and USA algo crossover because of the translate mode that happened has resulted in some pretty spectacular outcomes. None more so than Kenki Kids account. Have you seen this guy? Okay, so he describes in his bio on X as a company employee living in Yokohama's Kanai area, originally from Yokohama, born in 1985. Currently 41 years old, single, 41 years with no girlfriend history, non appealing to the opposite sex, an attractive amateur virgin, like sex services. Hobbies are watching soccer, overseas travel, planning to retire early from the company at age 50, has given up on marriage and is currently seeking a comfortable single life. So it's interesting about this guy. He's been tweeting about.

• 2:06:29Speaker 02

  That is one hell of a bio. How did he end up taking so many characters?

• 2:06:33Chris Williamson?

  I think you're able to compress things down on, in Japanese.

• 2:06:37George Mack?

  Press it for a dog as well.

• 2:06:39Chris Williamson?

  He's been tweeting about visiting different handjob parlors in Japan and is using the revenue paid out from X to fund his future trips. He's essentially unlocked an infinite handjob glitch in reality.

• 2:06:51George Mack?

  Chelsea supporter.

• 2:06:52Speaker 02

  It's also just no one in, in, in the, in the Western world talks like this. It's just a very specific, like, Japanese.

• 2:06:59Chris Williamson?

  So there's a quote tweet, go to the quote tweet, Jared. It's where he says, today, both my regular handjob spot and the married woman place are running discount events and I'm torn about which one to go to. That's quote tweeted by an American saying, Americans be like, I can't even get some chopped foie from a dating app to go on a $250 date with me. While the Japan bros are like, damn, the handjob parlor and the MILF joint are both on sale tonight. I don't know which one to pick. And he is using the X revenue in order to fund his handjob.

• 2:07:27Speaker 02

  It's like the most honest man in the world.

• 2:07:29Chris Williamson?

  It's unbelievable.

• 2:07:30George Mack?

  Can you set a calendar reminder for Black Friday?

• 2:07:34Tim Ferriss?

  Henky kids.

• 2:07:35Chris Williamson?

  Dude, unbelievable. Yeah, the crossover from American people finally being able to see Japanese content on X has resulted in some.

• 2:07:43Tim Ferriss?

  I did love the, I don't know if you've seen these split videos of like Japanese cleaning the stadium after a game and Knicks fans.

• 2:07:49Chris Williamson?

  You brought this up. Yes.

• 2:07:50George Mack?

  Even what's interesting, when the Japanese team played at Wembley against England, they cleaned the changing rooms afterwards. The players even did it. Completely different cultural difference. What's interesting though is you have these languages merge online. I'm assuming you're gonna have podcasts, language merge. Do you actually lose less, the cultural differences as much? One of the reasons why Japan is so unique is because they did that Sakuka, right? Where they, whilst the rest of the world was all mixing ideas, if you left Japan, killed. If you tried to enter Japan, killed. So it's so unique, it's so alien.

• 2:08:22Tim Ferriss?

  It's like the Galapagos of culture.

• 2:08:24George Mack?

  Yes. And I wonder with.

• 2:08:26Chris Williamson?

  It's a great way to put it. Yeah.

• 2:08:27George Mack?

  With the internet now, do you actually have, because I can feel it already that English culture is becoming a bit more American. Or even like this internet culture, it's not even American now. It feels like it's post-American. It's becoming more.

• 2:08:40Chris Williamson?

  It's just global. It's just the online culture.

• 2:08:42Speaker 02

  The internet is like the anti-Japanese isolationist culture effect.

• 2:08:47George Mack?

  Yes, and they're showing the dark web.

• 2:08:49Speaker 02

  And then what's unfortunate is then, what's nice is when you have all these independent cultures and each one does something really well. I mean, you can kind of, when it all starts to blend, you really lose the variety. The variety is where like, variety is the, in both evolution and cultural evolution, is the engine of creativity and growth. And, you know, and it's, it's like, instead of having, you know, a bunch of different brains in a room brainstorming, you just have kind of like one thinker and it's a shame.

• 2:09:13Chris Williamson?

  Someone wrote a blog post a few years ago about where did emos and goths go? And the question was that subcultures need time to wassify. And if you've got this sort of global permaculture thing that's always moving and any bit that moves in one side of the membrane affects another bit over here. It's like everybody being on a bouncy castle at the same time. And somebody that jumps up and down over there impacts everybody else. So you don't have time to silo off to create this sort of weird niche trends, music, tastes, language. Now you see subcultures on the internet with language, but very quickly, like look at Luxmaxing. All of that immediately now has become common vernacular because one part of the bouncy castle is now affected.

• 2:09:53Tim Ferriss?

  You know, I'm just pulling from words you're throwing out. You want a podcast name? I do.

• 2:09:57Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 2:09:58Tim Ferriss?

  Bouncy Castle Gangbang.

• 2:10:00Chris Williamson?

  Bouncy Castle gangbang. I'm actually not far off.

• 2:10:05Tim Ferriss?

  It's evocative. It's very visual.

• 2:10:06Chris Williamson?

  It's either that or fire up the autism engine. It's one of those two. It is visual. Yeah.

• 2:10:11George Mack?

  Why have you mentioned goths and emos then?

• 2:10:15Chris Williamson?

  When was the last time you thought about goths and emos?

• 2:10:16George Mack?

  And I always ask Chris this question and ask you two guys this, which is when the fascinating thing about something fading away is that you don't notice it fading away because by definition it's fading away. Is there anything that's currently fading away or has faded away that you think we would have forgotten about until you mentioned it? Like, a good example is the voicemail. The voicemail, if you watch, I was watching Breaking Bad and there's about five minutes every episode of like a voicemail scene where the voicemail will be playing across the house. And it's just disappeared. It doesn't exist. But nobody really discussed it because by definition, if something's fading away.

• 2:10:52Tim Ferriss?

  There's stuff that's fitting in too, like mullets. Mullets are back in.

• 2:10:55Chris Williamson?

  Mullets are very, very bad.

• 2:10:57Tim Ferriss?

  Moustaches came back.

• 2:10:59Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. You're actually only able to grow mullet.

• 2:11:01Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know if I could make, well, I can't do like the flat top mullet, which would be my sort of like aspiration. Cause I was just not gonna work. So I could do like a power donut. Rat tail.

• 2:11:15George Mack?

  Power donut.

• 2:11:16Tim Ferriss?

  Power donut, power donut, rat tail. Also not a bad podcast name.

• 2:11:20George Mack?

  That's true.

• 2:11:22Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:22George Mack?

  Not a bad grinder name as well. Power donut.

• 2:11:24Chris Williamson?

  Power donut, rat tail.

• 2:11:26Tim Ferriss?

  You know what I'm talking about, right? Like Professor X.

• 2:11:29Chris Williamson?

  That sounds like a wonderful couple that could be born out of grinder. Power donut and rat tail.

• 2:11:33George Mack?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:11:34Chris Williamson?

  Would get together very well. So what else have you brought from home? You've got this bag.

• 2:11:37Tim Ferriss?

  I brought lots of stuff. I'm gonna throw, I'm gonna throw out some fun stuff. You're talking about like humans, modern humans in the wild, dead, right? Domesticated dogs in the wild, dead. One exception, if you take domesticated pigs and release them into the wild, they rapidly undergo physical and behavioral transformations. Within just a few months, they develop thicker, bristly hair, longer snouts and tusks. Like they literally revert back into savage animals within months.

• 2:12:03George Mack?

  Has anyone studied what's happening to them?

• 2:12:05Chris Williamson?

  Cool.

• 2:12:06Tim Ferriss?

  They call it phenotypic reversion.

• 2:12:08George Mack?

  Wow.

• 2:12:09Chris Williamson?

  And have you brought one?

• 2:12:10Tim Ferriss?

  There's a, there's a, there's a small pig.

• 2:12:11Chris Williamson?

  Feral pig.

• 2:12:14Tim Ferriss?

  Wild boar. I brought a whole stack of things.

• 2:12:17Chris Williamson?

  This is exciting.

• 2:12:18George Mack?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:12:18Tim Ferriss?

  And then, so we can talk about these.

• 2:12:20Chris Williamson?

  Drugs. You brought drugs?

• 2:12:21Tim Ferriss?

  I brought drugs. So this, this one is, I'm still like jury's out, but.

• 2:12:28Tim Ferriss?

  The data are are pretty interesting. This is so this is Avmecall.

• 2:12:33Chris Williamson?

  I know exactly what this is.

• 2:12:33Tim Ferriss?

  You know what this is. So some people have heard of something called sulforaphane. And I'm going to pull this up so I don't misquote here. See if I can find it. Bear with me here.

• 2:12:46Chris Williamson?

  I love when my autistic newsfeed and Tim's autistic newsfeed come together. They merge together.

• 2:12:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So, all right.

• 2:12:56Chris Williamson?

  Just say it. Just go get him to get you on.

• 2:12:59Tim Ferriss?

  What's that?

• 2:13:00Chris Williamson?

  Carry on. He needs more frosty beverages.

• 2:13:02Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know. Yeah, okay. So this this stuff, so sulforaphane, people might have heard about like broccoli sprouts were kind of making the rounds a couple of years ago. And I think Rhonda Patrick should be given credit for bringing this to light for a lot of folks. And this is does not contain sulforaphane itself, but a precursor and an enzyme. So your body then produces sulforaphane. And I'll explain why I'm bringing this up because I I've been taking this for probably nine months. And predominantly because there is some possibility that it could help with mitigating the risk of neurodegeneration.

• 2:13:44Tim Ferriss?

  So that's again, whether it's the xylitol or this stuff, having multiple family members with Alzheimer's, I'm paying a lot of attention to prevention.

• 2:13:53Chris Williamson?

  You'll have done your genetic testing as well, right?

• 2:13:56Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Cool. Yeah. What's what's interesting is is quite a few people in my family, and I know this isn't the only risk factor, but they're APOE three, three, which should be the lowest risk at of Alzheimer's.

• 2:14:09Chris Williamson?

  Could be protected.

• 2:14:10Tim Ferriss?

  And yet. So there's other dysfunction. And in this case, you know, sulforaphane reliably activates N R F two related pathways in humans. All right. So the it's. Promising but not proven slowing aging, preventing cancer, preventing dementia, extending lifespan, treating chronic disease. It's basically detoxification. But the reason I brought it is that my supplement regimen has been very consistent for at least two or three years. And I do constant blood tests and so on. Just did a blood draw this morning, actually. And in the last maybe six months, I've been getting, it could be coincidence, but more compliments and questions about my skin than ever before. And I was like,

• 2:14:53Tim Ferriss?

  what is going on? Is this just coincidence? Or is something going on? And so I looked at the two things that I've added to say curiosity. Nothing new otherwise. I was like, okay, diet's the same. There is the Avmacall and then there is Urolithin A.

• 2:15:08Chris Williamson?

  Evening Timeline?

• 2:15:09Tim Ferriss?

  Timeline. And it turns out that it is plausible that this stuff helps with skin tone.

• 2:15:19Chris Williamson?

  Ronda's thing was, that was for microplastics, right?

• 2:15:22Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, there's, there's a bunch that does. But yes, like,

• 2:15:25Chris Williamson?

  Did you see, so I brought this up last time, but I didn't get a chance to actually say it. I had it ready for last time. So the microplastics numbers were wrong. The gloves were the source? So University of Michigan researchers just amended a core consumption assumption about microplastic science latex and nitrile gloves worn by the scientists doing the measuring shed steroid particles that look chemically identical to polyethylene?

• 2:15:50Tim Ferriss?

  Polyethylene.

• 2:15:51Chris Williamson?

  Standard infrared and ramen instruments couldn't tell them apart. The gloves were counting as plastic. So you know that every American consumes a credit card sized amount of microplastics every year. Like when you pick up the little Petri dish to, because it's human blood and feces and tissue samples and stuff, they're picking it up. But the way that it bends, the reason that gloves are able to bend is that tiny, teeny, teeny, teeny, tiny bits break off. That's why it's malleable. And they switched from that to some other type of glove. And it just went through the floor.

• 2:16:23Tim Ferriss?

  I like that. I was happy to see that.

• 2:16:25Chris Williamson?

  All the microplastic research looks like it could be wrong.

• 2:16:28Tim Ferriss?

  Wow.

• 2:16:29Chris Williamson?

  That's not to say that we're not consuming. We probably are. But the numbers I think are a hundred X.

• 2:16:33Tim Ferriss?

  Credit card doesn't sound that bad. I'll eat a credit card once a year. How bad could it be?

• 2:16:38Chris Williamson?

  I'd front load it. I'd get it all done January 1st.

• 2:16:40Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:16:41Chris Williamson?

  Get the AMEX in.

• 2:16:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, kind of grind it up.

• 2:16:43Tim Ferriss?

  So just to be clear, not a doctor, don't play one on the internet. This, this stuff, right, the Avmacalm, biologically plausible, reasonably safe, interesting human data, but not yet a slam dunk clinical intervention, but still interesting because it activates your own detoxification pathways as opposed to being an external antioxidant they consume. So the sort of hormetic stress response could be really interesting and have broader benefits. So that's why I'm.

• 2:17:07Speaker 02

  You do have cred with these kinds of things because you're like annoyingly healthy looking. You're like the healthiest looking person.

• 2:17:11Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you.

• 2:17:12Speaker 02

  You seem very like robust and unsickly all the time.

• 2:17:15Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you. Yeah, I'll be.

• 2:17:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll take your advice on these things.

• 2:17:18Tim Ferriss?

  50 before you know it, which is crazy. The, the key is to go bald early. So your photos look remarkably similar.

• 2:17:25Speaker 02

  I think as you get older, bald is an asset. You end up like, it's hard to age you.

• 2:17:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, no, exactly. That's what I'm saying. Oh, hair is the giveaway. Yeah. If you're trying to do like the dead squirrel comb over or whatever, white knuckling, dead giveaway. Uh, should I talk about these things real quick?

• 2:17:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:40Tim Ferriss?

  So, uh, I have, when I was a kid, I collected, I mean, comic books. I was kind of my first business was buying and selling comic books. Wanted to be a comic book penciller forever. Um, was an illustrator throughout school, paid a lot of my bills in college as an illustrator. So I love graphic novels and what I found as I'm being domesticated, not domesticated, but trained through L L Ms and everything else to have shorter and shorter attention span effectively, right? I'm trying to offset that, but another insight that I've had for me personally, I am, and we talked about the affantasia, I guess it was, and hyper visualization.

• 2:18:22Tim Ferriss?

  I'm so visual that often as I read, or even if I meditate, we could talk about how meditation factors into this, but.

• 2:18:32Tim Ferriss?

  I'm conjuring these images constantly, which can be very distracting.

• 2:18:35George Mack?

  Conjuring what?

• 2:18:36Tim Ferriss?

  Images, just visualization in my head or scenes or whatever, like there's constantly. And as I'm here, there's like another movie playing in my mind. It's like watching like two screens with different movies.

• 2:18:46George Mack?

  So will it tend to be like a past event or a future event? Or is it completely random?

• 2:18:51Tim Ferriss?

  Could be that, could be just random bits and bobs. So I've taken to going back to graphic novels because once you are reading a story with visual accompaniment, it occupies that part of my brain and I just love graphic novels. So I thought I would share after reading like dozens and dozens over the last couple of years, some of my favorites. This is Something is Killing the Children, real uplifting. This is going to be made into a very expensive series by Netflix, but basic premise, the artwork is amazing, story is really fun. And basic premise is monsters are real, only children can see them. And there are these cabals of of monster hunters. It's like, it's a beautifully simple premise and

• 2:19:37George Mack?

  It's very light.

• 2:19:38Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's great. If you're into the sci fi stuff, this is Lazarus, which is kind of a post apocalyptic.

• 2:19:51Tim Ferriss?

  These cartel like families run giant swaths of the United States and the world. And it's about their kind of geopolitical battles and how technology factors into it.

• 2:20:02Tim Ferriss?

  If you want something more fantasy. And this, this gets into some deep psychological terrain and inner turmoil, but it also throws in lots of fantasy tropes. So it's kind of like fantasy plus a bit of steampunk monstrous, which just based on the cover, I was like, I'm not going to like this at all. Full disclosure, I liked the first, maybe like 200 pages, the most of what I read. But the testimonials and stuff are insane. So this is another one that is beautiful. I tend to be very biased towards the stuff with really gorgeous penciling. Day Tripper, this is from Brazil and is, does not have any sci fi, any fantasy.

• 2:20:46Tim Ferriss?

  It's sort of a reflection on mortality. It's about this young man who has a star author as a father, whose shadow he's constantly living in, who, as his job, writes obituaries at a local newspaper, but it gets much more interesting.

• 2:21:01Speaker 02

  So how long, like, does that take you to read compared to like a book? How many pages, how many page book is that?

• 2:21:06Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, this, you'll rip through this, which is part of the reason why I'd say like, if you're gonna get in, like, this is 250 pages. I read this in three hours.

• 2:21:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I like that.

• 2:21:16Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you get through it very quickly. It's also an expensive habit. If you're using hard copy, right? I mean, this is gonna be 20, 25 bucks.

• 2:21:24Speaker 02

  As someone who takes forever to do the simplistic drawing, and granted, these people are far more talented artists, like, I mean, I mean, today, maybe they're using AI, but like, when I look at this, I'm like,

• 2:21:33Tim Ferriss?

  No, these are all, it's,

• 2:21:35Speaker 02

  So, just this one picture.

• 2:21:36Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah. The artwork in all of these is tremendous.

• 2:21:39Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 2:21:40Chris Williamson?

  Have you ever read a comic book?

• 2:21:43Tim Ferriss?

  Not in a while. Yeah.

• 2:21:44Chris Williamson?

  Since I was a child.

• 2:21:45Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:45Speaker 02

  I've never, basically never.

• 2:21:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's some,

• 2:21:48Chris Williamson?

  I think I could get into it.

• 2:21:49Tim Ferriss?

  There are some iconic,

• 2:21:52Speaker 02

  Calvin and Hobbes.

• 2:21:53Tim Ferriss?

  Calvin Hobbes is amazing.

• 2:21:54Speaker 02

  The actual like,

• 2:21:55Tim Ferriss?

  Calvin Hobbes is amazing. Look, I mean, Sandman, there's some real like, genre busting,

• 2:22:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:22:00Tim Ferriss?

  Graphic novels. This one is from France, Alma, which I'm currently reading. Really deeply philosophical, very psychedelic. This one also gets pretty trippy, as you would guess by the name. What I'd suggest, so this is impossible to get as a hard copy, it's very, very challenging. Just get the Kindle, get the Kindle versions and Kindle, or I should say, Amazon acquired a company that allows you to read these graphic novels, panel by panel, and it has this like, zooming in, zooming out function that is beautifully designed.

• 2:22:29Chris Williamson?

  That's why they put the new full color Kindle together, I think, to try and encourage people to get it.

• 2:22:33Tim Ferriss?

  Beautiful. And I'll actually, I'll actually just.

• 2:22:35Speaker 02

  Bode well for all of my.

• 2:22:37Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, the graphics, the graphic novels are not easy to read on mobile, but on say laptop or iPad or something.

• 2:22:44Speaker 02

  What I want is, and I don't know if it would apply to this, but for my books and for a lot of others that have a lot of visuals is I want audio, I want audible or some to be like, you're, you're listening and then it's like ding and you look and the screen just has the current drawing, the current image.

• 2:22:58Tim Ferriss?

  And so easy.

• 2:22:59Speaker 02

  And then you put, you see, you put it back in your pocket and then it's like ding, oh, there's a graph.

• 2:23:01Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. And it's, why?

• 2:23:03Chris Williamson?

  The supplementing materials.

• 2:23:05Tim Ferriss?

  Here's your attached PDF.

• 2:23:06Speaker 02

  Such a game changer from me. Yeah, that's what I do. It's attachment PDF. It sucks.

• 2:23:10Chris Williamson?

  I've got into Dungeon Crawler Carl. Have you read this book?

• 2:23:14Tim Ferriss?

  That's a fun one.

• 2:23:14Chris Williamson?

  Fuck me.

• 2:23:15Tim Ferriss?

  It's a fun one.

• 2:23:16Chris Williamson?

  It's, I mean, so Red, Red Rising is the most addictive fiction series that I've found pretty much ever. And they're about to release, Pierce is about to release book eight, I think, soon. And I got told, you know, when you get a book suggestion from two or three different people who don't know each other, yeah, all right, I just. Obviously need to do that. I've triangulated, they've triangulated me as a, and.

• 2:23:37Speaker 02

  Even the second recommendation, I'm like, okay.

• 2:23:39Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I should, Dungeon Crawler Carl. So it's a lit RPG, literary RPG. So you're basically reading. Imagine somebody played a video game and you read a description of what happened. That's kind of what it's like. And it is fucking unbelievable. And this guy is on book eight or nine now, and he released the first one in 2020.

• 2:24:01Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. When are the, what, and I remember the number of reviews was insane.

• 2:24:05Chris Williamson?

  It's fucking wild. This, Dungeon Crawler Carl for me is up there with Red Rise. Very different. It's very edgy. It's really lighthearted and fun. Like it's, there's a lot of inner monologues, there's interplay. You can tell that the story is going to get huge and unwieldy. There's progress. What's interesting is because he's leveling up, he's playing the game or he is the game. And as he goes along, he levels up skills and he's got to make a choice between which class he wants to be or this one. He, do I want to make this particular sacrifice in terms of my strength and my dexterity or my intelligence? Or what should we upgrade this pet that we've got as and what armor should I put on? And you'd think, oh, that sounds so dry and boring, but it is, it's got me. It's got me.

• 2:24:48Speaker 02

  It taps into the same thing that makes those games addictive to play, probably, right?

• 2:24:51Chris Williamson?

  Without feeling.

• 2:24:52Speaker 02

  Watching someone upgrade.

• 2:24:53Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, whilst getting to read.

• 2:24:54Tim Ferriss?

  Eighty two thousand reviews on Amazon, 4.7 stars. Goodreads, Goodreads is 427,000.

• 2:25:03Speaker 02

  It's insane. It's really-

• 2:25:04Chris Williamson?

  Since 2020.

• 2:25:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's it's pretty fun. I only got through book one and I enjoyed it.

• 2:25:10Speaker 02

  So I didn't make it.

• 2:25:11Chris Williamson?

  I don't know how you stopped at book one.

• 2:25:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25:13Chris Williamson?

  He was about to choose his class. How did you stop at book one?

• 2:25:15Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:25:16Chris Williamson?

  What have you been reading recently? Anything good?

• 2:25:18Speaker 02

  Um, so I I for a long time I've been alternating between like, because for for my writing, I'm constantly reading, like, nonfiction, history, or science, you know, whatever, things like that. I'm for for right now, I'm just reading a book called,

• 2:25:34Speaker 02

  what's it called? Something with Time by Carla Raveli?

• 2:25:38Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 2:25:39Speaker 02

  The Order of Things.

• 2:25:40Chris Williamson?

  The Order of Time.

• 2:25:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, my God, dude.

• 2:25:43Chris Williamson?

  The audio.

• 2:25:44Speaker 02

  I would listen to him read anything. So Benedict Cumberbatch is so good and he's reading it. And that's a book where, talk about like people who listen to books on like 2X or whatever, I want to do that in like point four X, because I have to constantly pause and just like think about what he just said and try to absorb. And then I go back. I I'm going through this short four hour book over like so so slow. But that's for work. That's like for my book. I usually alternate between like history podcasts and sci fi. Those are my right now. So I read the first book in the Expanse series, which I liked. I didn't love, I liked, so I didn't keep going. And then I read my my wife, you know, like an Instagram post of her favorite of the books she read in the year with the favorite to the least favorite stacked.

• 2:26:29Speaker 02

  And I I usually don't cross over that much, but I was like, that top one, it's her top book. So I read it and it was so good. It was called A Fraction of the Whole by Steve Tolts. He's this Australian author, takes place in Australia, and it is so funny and it's such an adventure and it's this just fantastic fiction book.

• 2:26:47Speaker 02

  And it's not that well known and it was just such a joy and I was like, that's a I would never have just picked that up on my own, but I loved that. And then- Um, and then I, um, more recently, obviously I read the whole three body problem trilogy, which is by the way, an example of one of those times when I couldn't do that either. You know, we, oh, really? Oh, no, here it goes. I bailed out four times. Let me tell you, let me just, this is very important. So there, there's three, there's three books. The first book is only a sixth of the length of the whole thing. Cause the second and third book are much longer. The first book is a B, B plus. It's, it's the, it's the appetizer to the whole thing. The second book, the first third of it is slow. So it is, it's really, if you don't lose people there, you're going to lose people there.

• 2:27:30Speaker 02

  When you get 200 pages into the second book, the rest, no, no, no, no, no, I know that sounds bad. Remind, I'm reminded, this is 140 pages. 75 and it all works out. This is 400, 1400 pages, the series, and you're only 500 total pages. And now the next 900 pages is the greatest thing I've ever read. It's the biggest adventure and it's not like the first part's bad. It's just a little slow and it's, then it, it just takes you on this ride. You've never been on. So if you haven't gotten, it just, it's so worth. I'm halfway through the first book and I'm not kidding. It's taken me 10 attempts. Just, just, just move. I need to grind it out. You've got, you have to.

• 2:28:08George Mack?

  My thought process with things like this, and particularly as I'm writing now.

• 2:28:10Speaker 02

  Good news. This takes an hour.

• 2:28:12George Mack?

  Yeah. Great. I like high octane. And maybe it's just like my standard as a writer that I try and apply to somebody else. But I'm like, why did you have to wait to this two and a half pages? Why, like if you watch Breaking Bad, the first scene of Breaking Bad, some trousers land in the air. There's an RV driving, Walter White's got a mask on with three people passed out, looking dead in the back. And he's got a gun in his pocket that comes out in the first five minutes. That's what I want.

• 2:28:38Speaker 02

  I don't think. That's ideal. That's ideal. Uh, in this case, first of all, it's like, when, once you get to the end, you also like the beginning has more meaning to you. I totally agree. And that, but it's, this has managed to be so popular despite things I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and this is by the way, an example of an author who actually I think didn't do a great job with the title, which was not three body problem. The title is Remembrance of Earth's Past. That's the title of the full series and no one knows that because basically readers were like, We're gonna pretend you didn't say that. We're gonna come up with their own title. It's a little bit like Game of Thrones. They didn't name Game of Thrones A Song of Fire and Ice, which is the actual title. They're like, Game of Thrones, the first book, that's gonna be the title of the whole thing, because it's, it's just, I like when the certain, you know, the fans kind

• 2:29:23Speaker 02

  of decide for you that we're not gonna.

• 2:29:25George Mack?

  It's interesting when something succeeds and then the real like nuanced conversation is how much of it succeeded despite.

• 2:29:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:29:34George Mack?

  Despite of this, because often you could look at Steve Jobs and go, the answer is turtlenecks and carrot juice. But, I mean, those are either, either completely irrelevant or in despite of, and it tends to be like one power law.

• 2:29:47Speaker 02

  And my correlation not causing.

• 2:29:49George Mack?

  Yes.

• 2:29:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:29:50George Mack?

  And that's a real constant IQ test.

• 2:29:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:29:53Chris Williamson?

  So you're saying Three Body Problem could be your vote for a book that succeeded in spite of a bad real title?

• 2:29:58Speaker 02

  And, and a slow first 500 pages of the 1400.

• 2:30:02Chris Williamson?

  I've heard that Dune, I've never read Dune, but I've heard that Dune goes real up and down as well.

• 2:30:06Speaker 02

  So my problem is, I just stuck with the first one. Yeah, I read the first Dune. It was good. Nothing, after Three Body Problem to me, it's just like, I read six Ian Banks books from the Culture series and they were really good. It's just, I, it'll never be. What makes it so good? The, the Three Body Problem? Yeah. It, the. I mean, I think, I think Dune is, I think Dune is a masterpiece, right? I think Herbert was a genius. The writing is not great. It's very like, kind of just like literal notes, not funny.

• 2:30:32Chris Williamson?

  It had to be translated as well, too.

• 2:30:33Speaker 02

  Had to be translated. The characters are super like boring people, like plain, you know, there's no character development. This is a Three Body Problem. Yes. You're, you're selling me well. No, but the plot, the plot is the best plot I've ever read in my life for anything. The, it is the most gripping, rich plot and the concepts in the plot are so mind bending and delicious and everything that I've ever thought was cool. You know how like Interstellar, which I don't think was actually that great a movie, but they had some killer concepts. Like you go to this planet and, and time is different and you come back and your seven year old daughter or whatever is, is 25 and it's like, whoa, right? It has so much of things like that, like the coolest thing I've ever heard, like he now

• 2:31:16Speaker 02

  weaves it into the plot. Um, and, and, and again, it, it's really one big game theory. I don't want to blow it for anyone, but like in the first, you know, To, you know, 20% of the very first book, the, the, the plot is launched and it's one, it's not a bunch of things. It's one thing happens in the early part of the first book. And then the rest of the book is basically playing out game theory. What would happen? How could this play out? And it's 1400 pages of this is one story that's happening, this one thing that happens. And then what goes on from there? So I, I just think anyone who likes sci-fi or like space or like just, uh, it is, you've got to get through.

• 2:31:54Tim Ferriss?

  So the first book, the first book in the series is Three Body Problem.

• 2:31:59Speaker 02

  Called Three Body Problem. Then there's The Dark Forest and then Death's End. And again, once The Dark Forest is one of my favorite books of all time and The Death End is also one of my, these are like two of my favorite absolute books. And again, it, people also, it's like, oh, the first book is slow, but that's only a six of the whole series. So that's what I would say.

• 2:32:14Chris Williamson?

  Well, I mean, Seven Eves by Neil Stephenson, the moon explodes in the first line. The first line of the book, the moon explodes.

• 2:32:20Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 2:32:21Chris Williamson?

  It was, it was something like, it was just after midday on a Sunday when the moon exploded. That's the first line of the book.

• 2:32:27Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:32:27Chris Williamson?

  It's pretty good. Boys, I appreciate you all. You're all fucking awesome. Tim, you're going traveling for a bit, so I'm not going to see you for a while.

• 2:32:32Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:32Chris Williamson?

  What have you got going on? Where should people go to keep up to date with the shit that you've got happening?

• 2:32:37Tim Ferriss?

  Just go to tim.blog, just put up a blog post talking about how nonfiction is imploding thanks to LLMs. If you want to see real sales numbers on disruption, that's there. Yeah, tim.blog, sign up for the newsletter, tim.blog/friday, it's got 2 million subscribers. It's fun, it's free.

• 2:32:54Speaker 02

  So right until my book is out, uh, that can't, no one can buy that. So, um, that's some fall of 27, so for, well, I'll be, who knows?

• 2:33:04Speaker 02

  Weepalwide.com is my homeland on the internet and all my posts are up and they're usually pretty evergreen. So that's still fun, I think. But likewise, I would say newsletter is the thing to do because I don't post that often. And I only send an email out when I post something. So it's not annoying and I always encourage people to. Get on board there.

• 2:33:26George Mack?

  Hi, agency.com forward slash books. Find out about Oblamov, who I spoke last time. My 400 page Russian novel where a man spends the first 50 pages worrying about how he's going to get out of bed. And that's a

• 2:33:39Chris Williamson?

  Having just criticized a man who's got 500 pages.

• 2:33:41George Mack?

  Read it, read it and see like it, watch Oblamov sit there.

• 2:33:45Chris Williamson?

  The most exciting time in bed.

• 2:33:46George Mack?

  All right.

• 2:33:47Chris Williamson?

  My beauties, I appreciate you all. I'll see you again soon.

• 2:33:49Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:33:49George Mack?

  Let's go.

• 2:33:50Chris Williamson?

  Boys, yes.

• 2:33:52Speaker 02

  All right.

• 2:33:52George Mack?

  What time is it?

• 2:33:53Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, fun shit.

• 2:33:54George Mack?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:55Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:55George Mack?

  Boom.

• 2:33:56Speaker 02

  Good job, everyone. This, the amount of treats was such a I lucked it in the fucking I had so much fun. These are incredible. Thank you. Take some away.

• 2:34:05George Mack?

  Oh, that was so much fun.

• 2:34:07Speaker 05

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