When I'm Manic I Cheat

This is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? Bipolar, infidelity, open relationship: they're stuck in a world of loaded words. Her friends are convinced she should leave, but she doesn't want to follow in her mother's footsteps. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? With Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's. And each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  I'm Anie Garten, and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Chloé Mal. We talk all about her taking on the top job at Vogue, finding her personal style, and her favorite lunch order in the iconic Conde Nast cafeteria. New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers.

• 1:08Speaker 02

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• 1:52Speaker 03

  You know, I was the good girl. Like, I got married all to college. I was abstinent. I did all the right things.

• 2:00Esther Perel?

  She played everything by the rules. And he broke all the rules.

• 2:07Speaker 03

  So so many people had seen my marriage as this example of a good, solid relationship. And so now it's the opposite, where it's like kind of the hot mess relationship.

• 2:21Esther Perel?

  He did the one thing that was not to be part of marriage.

• 2:25Speaker 05

  There was like five different encounters and I had sex with two of them.

• 2:32Esther Perel?

  And he tossed her entire structure of life. Her sense of identity, her expectations around marriage, her sense of herself as a woman.

• 2:43Speaker 05

  I've been diagnosed bipolar and I think that that has a significant bearing on how I've evolved.

• 2:53Speaker 03

  He's really interested in a non-monogamous relationship and he thinks that's the only way he can operate honestly. So it's like all these really shocking revelations that I'm trying to figure out how to process.

• 3:07Esther Perel?

  The aching question that they bring, both of them, is are we still even compatible?

• 3:29Speaker 06

  I see things in him that I have in me, but I almost wish I could express more of in my life. Like I love his, I love his spontaneity. He strikes me as kind of like a wild guy, you know, who loves new adventures and opportunities and just can easily put himself in situations that I might find uncomfortable. And so when I'm with him, I always feel like I can sort of just like go along for the ride and it feels really exhilarating. And I've always loved that about him, which is actually initially why at first, for various reasons, I kind of wrote him off as a romantic partner. Because I had, I was, you know, very itemized and I had my boxes of what a partner would look like and he didn't really check them, but.

• 4:08Esther Perel?

  Wildness and spontaneity, great as a friend, not reliable enough as a boyfriend.

• 4:15Speaker 06

  Yeah, definitely. And he wasn't, he wasn't nearly.

• 4:18Esther Perel?

  Did you see his face?

• 4:21Speaker 06

  He wasn't nearly as religious as me at the time. And so all these things, you know, caused me to dismiss him initially. But our relationship grew and developed and...

• 4:34Speaker 07

  And I changed.

• 4:35Speaker 06

  You changed a bit.

• 4:36Speaker 07

  I changed a lot.

• 4:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:38Esther Perel?

  Meaning?

• 4:40Speaker 07

  The wildness that you allude to sort of caught up with me.

• 4:45Speaker 07

  I almost saw myself as a prodigal son, and I needed to kind of come back into the fold of conservative, not conservative, but just Christianity that we'd been raised with. And I was also getting older. So, you know, three out of four of my brothers were teenage fathers, teenage husbands. And I was twenty, I was going on twenty-five. And I was just thinking, oh, my gosh, I need to get my life together. I'm getting so old and I don't even know what I'm doing with my life. I haven't even graduated college yet. I also am, have been diagnosed bipolar. And that was just starting to catch up to me at twenty-four, twenty-five. I had never really experienced it. I would have the kind of hypomanias,

• 5:29Speaker 07

  but the deep depressions I did not have and the extreme manias I didn't have. And that was starting to hit me at about around twenty-five and was just trying to reassess my life and made the decision that I would surround myself with wholesome people and ideally, Christian people. And I thought to myself, well, who's wholesome that I know? And no one that I know is even religious. And I thought, oh, that's right, she's Christian. It all seemed ordained. It all seemed that it was by God. We were all, we were very tapped into that sort of way of thinking. I was effectively trying to be something like you and latch myself on to you, I feel like, and your goodness and your wholesomeness, because that's what I felt that I wanted.

• 6:10Esther Perel?

  And experienced as a divine intervention?

• 6:13Speaker 07

  Yeah. Felt that way.

• 6:16Speaker 06

  Well, I think part of it is like that was sort of the religious community and context we were in where how fast everything happened for us at the time felt very normal in terms of the people we surrounded ourselves with. And now we're in such a different space, we're even hearing about that, I'm kind of like, oh my god, you know, I feel like such a different person. But I think it felt, it didn't feel strange to us at all. And in fact, like you talking about your brothers.

• 6:42Speaker 07

  Oh, right.

• 6:42Speaker 06

  That were kind of forced into getting married because they had, you know, kids when they were teenagers. And we felt like downright old and adult getting married after getting our college degrees, you know?

• 6:55Esther Perel?

  In a way, all these decisions that you have made, you made with a lot of clarity and a lot of certainty.

• 7:05Esther Perel?

  Maybe in part because they were prescribed, that's what was expected, and therefore you didn't have to ask yourself, what does it mean for me? How do I respond to this? What do we want to do with that? And that clarity has accompanied you up to now. And now, for the first time, you have a question for which what is prescribed doesn't fit the two of you.

• 7:42Esther Perel?

  They start by telling me their origin story, how they met and what drew them to each other, and how clear things were. There was a set step of progression. You meet, you fondle, if you want to have sex, you get married. When you marry, there's a very clear code of how you behave within marriage. This very clear idea that she had of life, he shattered it.

• 8:09Esther Perel?

  And he interpreted his multiple affairs as a sign that he must be polyamorous. And because she has been living no longer just in one culture with one value system, she begins to wonder, maybe there is such a thing as an open marriage, maybe that's going to make him more honest. But then, she thinks about her mother.

• 8:38Esther Perel?

  Do you wish you had done what your mother did?

• 8:42Speaker 06

  Sort of just divorce and then... No. No, I don't. Because she, I think... I mean, I know that she was in a very different phase of life. She had three kids. And the nature of their affair was really different than ours.

• 9:01Esther Perel?

  Meaning?

• 9:02Speaker 06

  My dad would have like long-term relationships with women, with like a singular sort of girlfriend.

• 9:11Speaker 06

  And so I think that just really wounded my mom because so much of her love and identity still is derived from family. And so that felt like such a deep cut for her that I don't think she's recovered from still. You know, she's never wanted to date. And so I don't want that. And at one point, she even told me, a few weeks after I found out, and it makes me really sad for her, but a few weeks after, told me he cheated. I said, "I'm just sad, Mom." And she said, "You're always gonna be sad." And that really made me... That broke my heart for her because it's been over 20 years for her. And I can't imagine like the depth of pain that I felt without him even being in a long-term relationship with someone.

• 9:55Speaker 06

  I can't imagine sitting in that kind of grief.

• 10:03Esther Perel?

  What sense did you make of it? What did it mean for you?

• 10:07Speaker 07

  Yeah, so I think that the desire,

• 10:14Speaker 07

  thoughts, impulse toward

• 10:20Speaker 07

  like a voracious consuming of life has always kind of been in me. I think that sex falls into that category.

• 10:27Esther Perel?

  I want you to talk to her.

• 10:30Speaker 07

  And I think that sex falls into that category. And I think that...

• 10:40Speaker 07

  I effectively had to shut off that part of myself and manage when we got married. And so I would take care of it myself, solo. I would work out. I would throw myself into work or travel or us, you know, at various times. Like, we would buy books. We would try to work on it ourselves. So it wasn't like I was completely just, oh, I won't, I'll neglect this. But it was like, I'll work on it with you. Also, knowing that this was not something that you were trying to, you weren't really pressing for outside of me. So that caught up with me. And then year four and a half, year five, the chance that something might happen outside

• 11:24Speaker 07

  of my, of course, I'm always in control, but the chance that I would just let it happen became greater and greater.

• 11:37Esther Perel?

  I'm getting a sense that maybe the priority is not a conversation about polyamory, but rather a conversation about bipolarity, which is known to have acceleration and a sense of mania that comes with intense sexual arousal. But that arousal should not be confused with curiosity and non-monogamy.

• 12:12Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

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• 12:46Esther Perel?

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• 13:59Speaker 07

  We didn't know what the issue was necessarily. And I was still under this... I was still trying to flagellate myself, you know, of not being so sexually queued up all the time, and how I wouldn't want to put my shit onto her, you know? And that was a big part of it, you know? I thought that this was something that was kind of a solo struggle, that this is something that was my problem and that you did not need to be involved in it if it wasn't your problem.

• 14:26Esther Perel?

  And my problem was?

• 14:28Speaker 07

  That I think about sex all the time.

• 14:32Speaker 07

  And I'm attracted to a lot of people.

• 14:35Esther Perel?

  I want to be careful about not conflating a possible discrepancy of desire between the two of you, with one of you being more interested than the other, and...

• 14:52Esther Perel?

  Infidelity.

• 14:53Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 14:54Esther Perel?

  And bipolarity.

• 14:56Speaker 07

  Yeah, that's hard.

• 14:59Esther Perel?

  We need to separate some of this. Now the conversation becomes layered.

• 15:04Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm, very.

• 15:06Esther Perel?

  Rather than everything subsumed.

• 15:10Esther Perel?

  You know, open, close.

• 15:14Esther Perel?

  It may still be a conversation about open, close. But what you're describing right now has nothing to do with monogamy.

• 15:22Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 15:23Esther Perel?

  All right, what happens with medication? You have, you are on medication?

• 15:27Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm, lithium.

• 15:29Esther Perel?

  And has that changed?

• 15:31Speaker 07

  The peaks and valleys are far less. So it's just, it's rolling hills now. And so I don't go into a severe manic state anymore. I don't get depressed. And, you know, medication, certainly lithium has helped that. I also maintain a job because that, that offers stability. And...

• 15:49Esther Perel?

  So you have to show up every day.

• 15:51Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 15:51Esther Perel?

  There's a schedule, there's a structure.

• 15:53Speaker 07

  I see the same people and they're usually in the same mood. And my moods will be different and they can sort of anchor me. Yep.

• 16:00Esther Perel?

  Good.

• 16:00Speaker 07

  I know, it's...

• 16:01Esther Perel?

  So she's no longer the only pole of stability?

• 16:04Speaker 07

  No.

• 16:05Esther Perel?

  That's good.

• 16:06Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 16:07Esther Perel?

  You know, she can continue to be, but you can't rely only on her as the anchor.

• 16:13Speaker 07

  That was not healthy at all.

• 16:14Esther Perel?

  You needed the anchor and then you resented the anchor.

• 16:17Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 16:19Esther Perel?

  All right, so you have, this is good, this is good. So you have a stable job?

• 16:24Speaker 07

  I meditate. Trans, transcendental meditation.

• 16:27Esther Perel?

  So you do two times 20 minutes per day?

• 16:29Speaker 07

  I don't, I do one time in the morning.

• 16:30Esther Perel?

  Okay, it's okay. I'm not your pastor.

• 16:34Speaker 07

  I do one time in the morning. I do one time in the morning.

• 16:38Speaker 07

  Well, that's because that's what they ask you, two times 20 minutes. It's like, oh my God, I can't do that. No, but I do, I do one time in the morning for 20 minutes. And...

• 16:44Esther Perel?

  Okay, can you take a deep breath just right now?

• 16:49Esther Perel?

  Just take a deep breath.

• 16:55Esther Perel?

  Now, breathe in and count five. In, two, three, four, five. Out, two, three, four, five. When you rev up, it's good.

• 17:13Speaker 07

  I told you I was getting manic today.

• 17:15Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 17:17Esther Perel?

  You rev up, and you can feel it in your speech.

• 17:23Esther Perel?

  You know?

• 17:26Esther Perel?

  Slow it down, and there is nothing that will regulate you more than breath.

• 17:34Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 17:35Esther Perel?

  If you just say, "I'm getting manic," you don't know what to do with it. Manic is some overwhelming state.

• 17:42Speaker 07

  It's interesting because it just feels like I'm being normal. Likewise, when I'm feeling hypersexual, it doesn't feel like I'm hypersexual. It feels like it's just this is how I always am.

• 17:55Esther Perel?

  It's okay. You're learning to... You know, if you had diabetes, you'd learn to manage it.

• 18:01Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm. That's what you say.

• 18:06Speaker 07

  It just... You just got me thinking when you said, "They feed into each other." You think about sex, so you keep thinking about sex. Then you think about... You think about how you're gonna think about sex when you're not thinking about sex because you're thinking about this whole conversation around monogamy, non-monogamy. And it's like, yeah, I mean, we can have those conversations. That's good, and we need to. It's not going anywhere. But how else can we mitigate that a little bit would be good.

• 18:30Esther Perel?

  It's not even mitigate. I think your sexual obsession is separate from a conversation about non-monogamy. And your non-monogamy isn't gonna solve your sexual obsessions.

• 18:43Esther Perel?

  You stop drinking, you stop doing any other things. And so this is the one that takes care of all the soothing.

• 18:54Esther Perel?

  My guess is you are often revved. And you discover early on something that many people, boys more easily, discover, which is that if you masturbate, it relaxes you.

• 19:10Esther Perel?

  And then slowly, this activity gets a name, and it gets a meaning, and it becomes sex, masturbation. It actually gets a word, rather than just soothing, falling asleep, relaxing. And then gradually, images and fantasies and other things begin to join it, and everything gets mixed up. When you're anxious, you masturbate. When you're happy, you masturbate. When you're worried, you masturbate. When you're sad, you masturbate. When you're bored, you masturbate. Everything leads to the same outlet. You understand? And, you know, then comes an ideology that says, "Oh, if I were sexually free..." You could be sexually free and in a different relationship with your wife, but that is not going to address the obsession,

• 19:56Esther Perel?

  the compulsion, the feeling that when anything happens in my body, before I even know it's a feeling, it's just a sensation, my mind fills up with those kinds of thoughts. Your mind could have filled up with lots of other kinds of thoughts. It's more that you don't necessarily choose if you want that thought, and you don't know when you have that thought how to switch it to another thought, if you chose to.

• 20:19Speaker 07

  Yeah, right.

• 20:19Esther Perel?

  And that's the compulsive nature of this. That's what distinguishes it between, you know, "So he has a rich, fertile erotic mind. What's the issue?" versus, "He feels beleaguered by it. He feels like he gets taken hostage, and he can't take himself out of it."

• 20:38Esther Perel?

  What I'm trying to tease out with him is the difference between thoughts, feelings, and actions. And the fact that they don't necessarily have to be lumped together. You have a thought, therefore you have a feeling, therefore you must act. And then we look at his other resources, because this is a strength-based way of thinking for me. He has been able to stop a lot of things that used to compound his condition. Sexuality is the place where he feels hostage.

• 21:09Esther Perel?

  It has a different meaning for him. Drinking wasn't an issue. His food habits were not an issue. His sleeping, he was able to correct. He's done a lot to change and to manage his health. And all of those resources will become handy in helping him when he feels in the grip to be able to redirect his energy and his attention.

• 21:44Esther Perel?

  How do I bring in other thoughts? How do I deal with breath? How do I learn to bring in other stimulants? So that I don't feel like I'm helpless?

• 21:54Speaker 07

  Yeah, I think that's the honest answer. I think I could just occupy my time a little bit more.

• 22:01Speaker 06

  Yeah, and I think that's what's made when we do try to have conversations about non-monogamy. It's what makes them so confusing because there's not this clear understanding of why exactly you want it or need it. Or, you know, it's kind of...

• 22:15Esther Perel?

  No, you can't need non-monogamy.

• 22:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, and that's...

• 22:18Esther Perel?

  It's either a choice. It's a choice of life, of values, of what sexuality means, of what curiosity means. Even if you agree to consensual non-monogamy, it is not going to address this.

• 22:30Speaker 07

  Sure.

• 22:31Esther Perel?

  This is existing on its own since you're

• 22:35Esther Perel?

  eight years old.

• 22:37Esther Perel?

  When you do act, is it act or is it act out?

• 22:42Speaker 07

  Sure.

• 22:43Esther Perel?

  Is it a real choice? Or is it just like, you know, he didn't know what to do with himself? And that's a different reality for her, to be with someone who is actually thinking about life and is conscientious about what he's doing versus someone who is in the grip of impulse, of obsession, and he's not really choosing.

• 23:06Speaker 07

  Right, yeah. I'll just say that I absolutely want to be the first thing that you said. I want to be the conscientious. Thought out person in life.

• 23:19Speaker 06

  You've made a ton of progress.

• 23:20Speaker 07

  I guess I have.

• 23:21Speaker 06

  In terms of like treatment and self-acceptance.

• 23:24Speaker 07

  Yeah, you don't see that you do, but you do.

• 23:26Speaker 06

  You have.

• 23:27Esther Perel?

  You what?

• 23:28Speaker 07

  You don't see that you make progress, I guess. It's hard to see it when you're the one living with it.

• 23:33Esther Perel?

  But you have an amazing witness next to you.

• 23:35Speaker 07

  But here we are, yeah.

• 23:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, oh, there's been a ton of progress.

• 23:39Speaker 07

  She's witnessed a lot. Yes.

• 23:52Esther Perel?

  We need to take a break, but please stay with us.

• 24:04Speaker 06

  Bipolar and fidelity open relationships, they just feel so big and weighty.

• 24:12Speaker 06

  It's hard because sometimes when I have those conversations, I can see this glazed look come over my friends' eyes of, or my family of like, "I wouldn't know how to deal with that," you know? And so...

• 24:24Esther Perel?

  And then what happens to you?

• 24:26Speaker 06

  It makes me question my decision-making a lot because,

• 24:32Speaker 06

  you can read them and they'll tell me like, "You know, just be careful and take care of yourself." And it does scare me a little bit.

• 24:40Esther Perel?

  It?

• 24:42Speaker 06

  Their sense of caution about the situation, their sense of uncertainty.

• 24:46Esther Perel?

  About?

• 24:47Speaker 06

  About us getting back together potentially.

• 24:49Esther Perel?

  Because?

• 24:51Speaker 06

  Mainly, I think, for them, as soon as I told them that he cheated, that was it for a lot of them, you know? They were really angry for me. And just, you know, a lot of my close friends were like, "Get out of there, it's done." Some friends would even say, I hadn't told them I was getting a divorce, and they'd say, "I approve of your divorce," you know? Don't even question that, that's the ultimate betrayal. And then you sort of add the complexities of, "Maybe it would be an open relationship." And they just think, "Why would you be in an... So are you just giving him permission to cheat on you essentially?" These kinds of things, you know? Well, if you wouldn't naturally be in an open relationship, why would you go into one with someone who cheated on you already?

• 25:36Esther Perel?

  And can you... Why is it the ultimate betrayal?

• 25:42Speaker 06

  I think that's, that's the cultural perception and that's their sort of perception that is there anything worse that you could do in the context of a committed relationship? And I, I don't necessarily feel that way, you know, especially talking to him about it. I'm still upset about it and it wasn't, it wasn't okay. But I can understand why he did these things, even if I don't approve of them, you know? And I can see how there's also so many other things I love about him as a partner that don't, that aren't discounted because he made bad choices.

• 26:17Esther Perel?

  Such as?

• 26:18Speaker 06

  I think he's the person that I, we, we've known each other for almost a decade now and we never run out of things to talk about, you know? We both just have this mega curiosity about the world and this disposition to life where we wanna learn more, we wanna experience more things, we wanna talk to new people. We love traveling, we have the most fun when we travel together, you know? And I love, I love our disposition toward the world together. Um, yeah, and he's, he's the first person I still wanna call if I have a really bad day, you know, these kinds of things. I have a lot of other good friendships in my life, but our dynamic is very special to me. And he, he does feel like a support system in so many ways.

• 27:02Speaker 06

  I know that if I need him, he'll be there, you know? If I really need something, I can always count on him. And he's also really open to critiques, which I think is really amazing. Not that I'm always critiquing him, but there's not a defensiveness about, yeah, there's not a defensiveness about you, you know? Like when we do have conversations and I call you out, you're willing to own your bullshit, you know, and say, yeah, I wanna, I, I want to do better. I love that you have the sense of you want to improve and grow and learn. Um, and I love all those things and I don't think that's a super easy thing to come by in anyone and.

• 27:44Esther Perel?

  So can I take this whole list? I can't talk to him, he's always defensive. Forget traveling, it's impossible. We've got nothing to tell each other. I cannot count on him. The last person I would call if I have a bad day is him.

• 28:11Esther Perel?

  Every time I suggest something, he says no to everything. He's so utterly uninterested in things. And I find myself so curious and eager. And I really don't like his disposition to the world. And if you make this entire list to your friends, do they tell you divorce?

• 28:32Speaker 06

  Oh, I'm sure they would say, "Don't be with that person."

• 28:35Esther Perel?

  Yes, but they wouldn't instantly ask you to leave him on the spot.

• 28:41Speaker 06

  Yeah. None of these things are necessarily like, "Okay, divorce," without...

• 28:47Esther Perel?

  Therapy.

• 28:47Speaker 06

  Right, right. That's true.

• 28:51Esther Perel?

  What do you make of that?

• 28:53Speaker 06

  It does seem like we do live in a culture where we really, really value one form of sexual fidelity as the ultimate sign of commitment. Which, I think sex is very important, but obviously, all these other things are really, really valuable to me in a relationship as well.

• 29:19Esther Perel?

  I don't think that he even knows, sorry. I don't think you really know why you did what you did. There's a part of you that asks yourself, "Is this because I am inclined to, because my spontaneous exploratory self leads me to want to experience sexuality with other partners as well? Or is it because that day I was revved up, and this person was there, and then it turned into a story of, "I'm curious and exploratory"?

• 29:54Speaker 07

  I would answer yes.

• 29:56Esther Perel?

  Yes?

• 29:56Speaker 07

  To both.

• 29:57Esther Perel?

  To both?

• 29:58Speaker 07

  Yes. What I would say is that I've always known, even when I was going to Catholic school, that this idea of sex with one person for life just did not really make sense to me. I was also seeing my brothers have to be forced into a marriage because they had children with somebody that they then went on to divorce three years later. So that was having an effect on me. So, you know, I don't think... I think that the idea of sexual exclusivity has never really made a whole lot of sense to me. When you couple in, sort of a revved up state, it makes it far more likely for me to act out on those urges.

• 30:42Esther Perel?

  Good. And my commitment to her and my fidelity to her, how would you describe it?

• 30:48Speaker 07

  I would describe it just as that. I would describe it as I am committed to you because I've chosen to be committed to you. And it is for many of the reasons that you listed. It's also for qualities in you that I would like to have more of in me, that I really admire.

• 31:09Speaker 07

  I knew quickly that I could commit to you in some capacity or another for the rest of my life. What I did not realize until marriage was the sexuality bit would be difficult for me.

• 31:28Speaker 07

  I never have committed to anybody else. I've never wanted to. And I've thought, when I was 23 years old, that I could go my entire life without committing to another soul person. And then when I decided and I made the decision that I did want to commit to you, that was it for me.

• 31:46Esther Perel?

  You can let that sink in.

• 31:50Speaker 06

  Thanks for saying that.

• 31:55Speaker 06

  It's just...

• 31:58Speaker 06

  It's hard to know what to do with it now, you know?

• 32:02Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 06

  Like, we know that we love each other, but...

• 32:06Esther Perel?

  But I don't want to be hurt like this again.

• 32:09Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 32:11Speaker 07

  Likewise, I don't want to hurt anybody like that again.

• 32:15Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 32:15Speaker 07

  That's a huge piece of this. So I can't promise sexual exclusivity to one person, but I can promise that I'm not going to act in the shadows.

• 32:27Esther Perel?

  You can. You may choose not to. This is not about capability.

• 32:31Speaker 07

  So I can or I can't, right?

• 32:32Esther Perel?

  Monogamy is a practice. It's a choice.

• 32:37Esther Perel?

  It's not a can or can't. I want to be really careful here. I don't know that the two of you are that different. Sexually speaking. You have decided you are incompatible. No, I don't see it. I see the meaning of sexuality is different. The role it plays, but not when you connect. I also don't know that what we're talking about is should you be together or not. All of what you've addressed till now for me is part of marriage.

• 33:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 33:11Speaker 07

  I like that.

• 33:12Esther Perel?

  This is marriage. This stuff is what people need to deal with in the context of marriage.

• 33:18Speaker 07

  Sure.

• 33:20Speaker 06

  And I mean, our disposition towards each other, even though I feel like we try to we try to curb it, to act like we're not, we're not together right now. But our disposition is as though we're together and working on it.

• 33:35Esther Perel?

  I wonder to what extent this notion of having to say we are not together right now is, that's the statement to the world.

• 33:43Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 33:44Esther Perel?

  So that you don't think I'm weak and I am gullible.

• 33:48Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 33:49Esther Perel?

  And I am a fool and I'm just some romantic and I'm a woman who allows herself to be stepped on.

• 33:54Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 33:54Esther Perel?

  And for you, I show you, I'm creating a boundary, we're not together. And internally, you are actually embracing something that is much more complex. And that doesn't mean you're weak and you're being stepped on and you're a fool and you're letting him walk all over you, etc., etc., and you're not holding your ground and you're letting him make the power because he cheated first and then he brought in that conversation. I see an internal and external conversation inside of you that is just as much with normativity as he's having.

• 34:30Speaker 06

  No, I think that's spot on.

• 34:32Esther Perel?

  It's a different set of norms you're arguing, but the two of you are having chats with norms.

• 34:39Speaker 07

  Sure.

• 34:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, spot on. Yeah, absolutely.

• 34:42Esther Perel?

  Say it in your own words.

• 34:44Speaker 06

  I do question myself, and I think it's good to question ourselves consistently and not just assume that we're always, you know, our feelings are in the right. And so I really try to do that and have those dialogues with myself about, well, what works for us? And, you know, and if my friends are challenging me and like, really, like, this man cheated on you? And you're gonna like have an open relationship that you're not even interested in? And they think I'm totally being stepped on. And so I think I have, in part to convince myself, but in part to tell them, well, we're not together and we're working on it as this sort of, I'm not being stepped on.

• 35:27Speaker 06

  And but I feel like I am a little bit. When we're apart and I think about it, I can get really fixated on how, how can I ever feel empowered in this relationship again? But then when we're talking face to face, I don't feel that, you know? So I have this disconnect and what should my values be in this situation? But then there's this relationship that I do want to keep working on.

• 35:53Esther Perel?

  And that's a value too?

• 35:56Speaker 06

  I think so. I think a commitment to this relationship is a value, even though it's hard, you know? But we are still legally married and we made that commitment to each other. That does matter to me. Even though I think about it differently than when we made the vows, it's still, that commitment still matters to me.

• 36:19Speaker 06

  I don't know. I don't want to fool myself as well, you know?

• 36:23Esther Perel?

  Meaning?

• 36:24Speaker 06

  I don't want to let my love for him allow me to make foolish decisions that do end up hurting me again in the future. Because I do think about it if...

• 36:35Esther Perel?

  With minimum liability.

• 36:37Speaker 06

  Maybe.

• 36:38Esther Perel?

  What you've just said is in part the definition of love.

• 36:43Speaker 06

  The risk aspect.

• 36:44Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 36:45Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 36:47Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's true. Because I can, when I think about potentially dating again, I'm going back to the checkboxes in my mind of like, this time I would find a stable partner, you know, and sort of try to minimize the risk.

• 37:02Esther Perel?

  One risk. You have not minimized the risk of the ten other things that you mentioned that you have.

• 37:11Esther Perel?

  I think instead of spending our time defining sex and monogamy,

• 37:19Esther Perel?

  that where we are landing is a different definition of love.

• 37:25Esther Perel?

  If you want love without hurt, or love without risk, or love without vulnerability, or love without the fear of what the other person can do to you,

• 37:39Esther Perel?

  then we're not talking about love.

• 37:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's making me think about my mom again because it's like she's made that decision. She's not going to let love make a fool of her and therefore there's no love in her life in that regard now. You can't take the risk out of love or the pain, you know, and it's like we'll probably run into other painful things that have nothing to do with infidelity, you know.

• 38:04Esther Perel?

  But it's so interesting you just brought up your mom because 10 minutes ago I was going to ask you, how has your mother's sadness shaped you?

• 38:15Esther Perel?

  So I'm going to ask it now.

• 38:17Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 38:19Esther Perel?

  I think that you talk about your friends, but I would put mom in that conversation too. And you're right, you see her. She made sure that nobody can ever hurt her again. But the price she pays.

• 38:40Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 38:42Speaker 06

  She often will tell me, "Well, you know, I've made the choice to never date again." And the way she frames it is kind of in this very empowered way of like, "And I'm good because of it. Like, I haven't been hurt because of it." "Can you imagine the pain I would have been going through since then if I had?" And I think that does stick with me of... Because there's so much about her I also look up to. So I think, "Well, maybe that is the better model." "Maybe I should just go it alone like her and be really strong and have accomplishments and relationships and other capacities." Because I think it's easy for me to see love relationships as sort of fickle, unnecessary things.

• 39:27Speaker 06

  It's hard for me to see it as a value, to see maintaining a romantic relationship as a value. Actually, now that I think about it.

• 39:41Esther Perel?

  But he does.

• 39:46Esther Perel?

  He's actually intensely emotionally monogamous.

• 39:52Speaker 06

  I think that is true.

• 39:53Speaker 07

  Yes, true.

• 39:58Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 39:59Esther Perel?

  You may be sexually monogamous, but you question the value of love.

• 40:03Speaker 06

  Yeah, I do. Perhaps that's just me trying to protect myself, you know? Because if I say it's not important, then it can't hurt me that much.

• 40:14Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 40:17Speaker 06

  And so after he told me about the cheating, I was... I didn't feel like I knew myself. I was shocked because the amount of emotion that I felt, the depths of like pain and sadness that would just leave me in bed. I never knew I could be that person. And that scares me.

• 40:40Speaker 06

  I have to answer the question of is that worth it to me? Is that risk worth it, I guess?

• 40:46Esther Perel?

  So you say when he hurt me, it reached so deep inside of me. I didn't recognize myself.

• 40:57Esther Perel?

  And now,

• 40:59Esther Perel?

  does it really make you see how much you love this man? And how deep and complex of a person you are? Or you think can't believe I could be so weak?

• 41:11Speaker 06

  Definitely the first, yeah.

• 41:16Speaker 06

  But I had been telling myself the second

• 41:20Speaker 06

  that the emotions were a sign of foolishness and weakness.

• 41:24Esther Perel?

  Right, that's the legacy of your mom.

• 41:28Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 41:32Esther Perel?

  So I'm gonna put her in this chair.

• 41:34Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 41:37Esther Perel?

  Hi, Mom. See, daughter, she came here and she thought that she came to discuss monogamy.

• 41:47Esther Perel?

  And that's a piece of the discussion, but she also came to discuss the legacy.

• 41:53Esther Perel?

  About what are the choices that women can make?

• 41:59Esther Perel?

  So she's got a few things to tell you.

• 42:06Speaker 06

  Mom, I know that you love me and want to protect me. And

• 42:16Speaker 06

  I know that one of your biggest wishes is that I wouldn't go through what you went through.

• 42:23Speaker 06

  But

• 42:25Speaker 06

  it's already happened. I lived through it. I'm okay.

• 42:31Speaker 06

  And maybe even stronger from it. And...

• 42:38Speaker 06

  We want to work through this and

• 42:43Speaker 06

  we're not ready for our relationship to be over.

• 42:48Speaker 06

  And I think we're in a place to maybe be more honest than we have been.

• 42:54Speaker 06

  And I want to give that a chance. And I know that of course it's a risk. Love is always a risk. But it's one that I want to take.

• 43:17Esther Perel?

  This is not a situation in which one can experience maximum certainty. But it's very hard for her to maintain that confidence in the face of the external pressures that many women feel.

• 43:33Esther Perel?

  If they say differently than the norm, they're seen as being stepped on, as being weak, as being, you know, persuaded by the powerful man. The fact that she may have her own powerful ideas about this is not so easy for her.

• 43:59Esther Perel?

  When she tells you, "I'm not sure", what happens to you?

• 44:08Speaker 07

  I think I take that with just an acceptance of what is when she says that she's not sure.

• 44:15Esther Perel?

  I would suggest that you bring in a little bit more confidence of what you know you want.

• 44:24Esther Perel?

  And that's not the conversation about consensual non-monogamy only. That's the conversation about, "I want us".

• 44:33Esther Perel?

  See, a part of what she's grappling with is a very archaic power story. You hurt me once. How will I make sure that I don't later sit down 10 years from now and it happened again? And I will think I knew it, I allowed this to happen to me again. And then on top of it, because you're in a hetero couple, you know, it's the man's story. And because you first cheated on me and then you introduced it as a nice concept, consensual concept, you already have one over me.

• 45:13Esther Perel?

  And the whole thing is a story of power and protection.

• 45:19Esther Perel?

  Understandably so, but that's the story that you're dealing with. You're not having the same conversation. You don't even know you're having this conversation with her. But that's the conversation she's having with you and with the chorus, the Greek chorus on the side.

• 45:33Speaker 07

  No doubt. Yeah, no doubt.

• 45:36Esther Perel?

  With Mama as the high priestess.

• 45:40Esther Perel?

  An essential way that she can intervene on the conflict around power

• 45:51Esther Perel?

  is if you express the remorse and the guilt for hurting her. Because if you acknowledge deeply your understanding of how much you hurt her, it lessens the power.

• 46:14Speaker 07

  Hurting you is the most... It's the worst thing I've ever done to another person.

• 46:23Speaker 07

  It's something that I've... That is...

• 46:26Esther Perel?

  Hold her hands.

• 46:27Speaker 07

  It's something that shifted how I move through the world.

• 46:34Speaker 07

  And the fact that it happened to the person that I love the most and am utterly committed to

• 46:42Speaker 07

  hurt all that much more. And I'm sorry for that.

• 46:47Speaker 07

  And I'm sorry that I wasn't there in the aftermath.

• 46:54Speaker 07

  And so I am deeply remorseful and feel deeply guilty for having hurt you like that. And I never want to do that to anybody again, most of all you.

• 47:13Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, that means a lot to hear. And it is reassuring. It just makes me feel seen because I think if I don't want to feel like being cheated on was a foolish thing, I feel like I need you to reassure me that I wasn't stupid for hurting, you know? That it was something that was not OK, but it's not going to be our future together.

• 47:41Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 47:50Esther Perel?

  He's apologizing for hurting her is essential, but not enough. Where he has to go from here is in the full validation that the dilemma that she's in, vis-à-vis her mother, her friends, the society, the condition as a woman, is something that he trusts upon her. It's his behavior that made her constantly now wonder, is she weak? Is she giving in? Is she engaging in a rigged conversation? And he needs to own that. When he can literally validate that part of her experience and join her in that, she will feel less alone and more confident about taking this on

• 48:34Esther Perel?

  as a couple against the world.

• 49:00Speaker 00

  You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to esterperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity: In the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, esterperel.com.