Pop Star Camila Cabello On Stoicism, Creativity and Success

On today’s episode, Ryan talks with Camila Cabello on training your mind to work for you, finding courage and happiness in your career, how she values stillness and the idea of memento mori, and more. Camila Cabello is one of the biggest stars in the music industry today. Cabello’s 2018 debut album, Camila, reached the top of the Billboard 200 chart and was certified platinum. Cabello has billions of streams on digital music platforms and has won multiple awards, including two Latin Grammy Awards, and has received three Grammy Award nominations. She will be playing the lead role in the 2021 adaptation of Cinderella. This episode is brought to you by GiveWell, the best site for figuring out how and where to donate your money to have the greatest impact. GiveWell’s team of researchers works countless hours to determine which charities make the most effective dollar-for-dollar contributions to the causes they support. Since 2010, GiveWell has helped over 50,000 donors donate over 500 million dollars to the most effective charities, leading to over 75,000 lives saved and millions more improved. Visit GiveWell.org/stoic and your first donation will be matched up to 100 dollars. This episode is also brought to you by Amazon Music. one of the things that makes this time of year truly wonderful is the music—and my family’s getting its holiday music fix thanks to Amazon Music. Whether it’s the Charlie Brown Christmas album or Mariah Carey, Amazon Music has something for any holiday occasion. For a limited time, new subscribers can get three months of Amazon Music Unlimited, absolutely free, by visiting Amazon.com/Ryan. Starts at $7.99/month after. New subscribers only. Terms apply. Offer expires 1/11/2021. This episode is also brought to you by Native. Native makes amazing, all-natural deodorants, and they have some great new holiday-themed scents to make this time of year more festive. Native is risk-free to try, too. Every product has free shipping within the US, and free 30 day returns and exchanges. Visit NativeDeo.com/stoic or use promo code STOIC at checkout to receive 20% off your first order—and be sure to order by 12/7 to receive everything by Christmas.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better. Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Camila Cabello:Homepage: https://www.camilacabello.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/camila_cabello/Twitter: https://twitter.com/Camila_CabelloFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/camilacabello/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/camilacabelloSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Weekend Edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something that can help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, wisdom, and temperance. And here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers, we reflect, we prepare, we think deeply about the challenging issues of our time, and we work through this philosophy in a way that's more possible here when we're not rushing to work or to get the kids to school, when we have the time to think, to go for a walk,

• 0:45Ryan Holiday?

  to sit with our journals, and to prepare for what the future will bring.

• 0:53Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, everyone. My guest today needs almost no introduction. Camila Cabello, multi-platinum musician, one of the biggest pop stars in the world, billions of streams across all the streaming platforms. You've heard her on the radio a million times. She's great, and you might not know that she is a fan of Stoic philosophy. I found this out when I got a message from someone on Instagram. They said, "How dare you not acknowledge what Camila Cabello said about you on Instagram?" And I said, "What are you talking about?" And I looked, and Camila had posted a page from The Daily Stoic. And we ended up connecting, which was so cool. And we've become, I would like to say, friends.

• 1:35Ryan Holiday?

  We've texted, shared some book recommendations, and gone back and forth. And I said, "Hey, do you want to do the podcast?" Thinking that she probably has way, way better things to do, and I'm sure a million requests to be on a million platforms. But she said yes, which was awesome. And so, we had a great conversation. I'm coming to you from Arizona, visiting some family. We did a great conversation over Zoom. Unfortunately, couldn't be in person. But here is my interview with Camila Cabello. We should thank Shawn Mendes, her boyfriend, for doing tech support. We had some tech issues, so if it drops for a minute and then comes back... You'll understand why, but here's my interview. And I think you will enjoy these philosophical perspectives from someone who has seen the world,

• 2:19Ryan Holiday?

  who is literally Cinderella. She's playing Cinderella in the new Sony Pictures movie. Someone who's experiencing adversity and difficulty, just like the rest of us. What do you do when your, your business is performing in front of large groups of people? And traveling and suddenly you can't do that anymore. And you might not be able to do that for six months to another year. What do you do when life forces you to reconsider what you want your lifestyle to look like? What you want your routines to look like? What you want your focus and priorities to look like? When Marx really says, no role is so well suited to philosophy as the one we're in right now. He meant that about his life as an emperor, but it also applies to being a pop star,

• 3:00Ryan Holiday?

  being an actress, being a girl in her twenties, being a guy in his thirties, being a father, being single, being an artist, being an entrepreneur, being whatever you are. We can all apply philosophy. In fact, we should be applying this philosophy because it makes us better. As the Stoics say, nothing prevents us from operating always with courage, justice, moderation and wisdom. Those are the themes of my interview with Camila Cabello. Enjoy. I'm so excited. I got a, I had my wife give me a haircut just for this.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Oh, you look great.

• 3:36Ryan Holiday?

  It's weird times. I wish we could do this in person, but of course here we are.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  But here we are. What, what time is it where you are?

• 3:43Ryan Holiday?

  It is nine o'clock where I am.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Oh, nice. Do you get up at like three o'clock in the morning?

• 3:48Ryan Holiday?

  We, I got up at, I think six AM this morning, but that's because we have kids. And so we don't have any choice about when we wake up.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Well, I, I kind of know what you mean more now because we just got a puppy. And Sean, I told him, I was like, we have, because he's like nine weeks old, he has to be taken out, like we have an alarm on our phone for like two AM. And then in four hours for six AM. And Sean, I was like, can you just, he like did all the, the, all the pee and poo shifts last night, but, and, and then tonight I'm going to do all the pee and poo shift. So I, I'm one step closer to knowing what having kids are like. And let me tell you, can I swear on this?

• 4:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, of course.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  I respect the shit out of you parents because we have a puppy and shit's been. It's hard. Not hard, but like, you know, it's a lot of work.

• 4:40Ryan Holiday?

  No, it is. It is. I think what's good about dogs and then what's good about kids is that it's sort of force it. You can get very used to sort of getting your way and doing things only when you want to do them. And then the nice thing about these sort of responsibilities is that they really don't care at all what you want, what you prefer. It's just sort of inarguable reality.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Totally. And you just like, I have to be present. It just like forces you to be present and also to like laugh and be patient at situation like instead of be like. So many times like in the past few days, we're like, no. Cause he'll like, you know, eat another dog's food or he'll chew something up and it just like makes you really, really patient. Plus he's cute as fuck.

• 5:24Ryan Holiday?

  No, of course, of course. It's a, it's a golden retriever. What's the name?

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Uh, his name's Tarzan.

• 5:30Ryan Holiday?

  Tarzan, very nice.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  It's funny because when we first got him, he was like, he was so like docile and calm. We're like, oh, we're gonna pick that one. And then five days later, he's just become like a Tasmanian devil. And Sean and I were like, this dog's a genius. Like he just like made us believe he was this calm, like docile dog. And now he's like, ah.

• 5:51Ryan Holiday?

  Well, if you think about what dogs, like I, I, we don't really realize how manipulative dogs are because dogs were wild animals and we, we, I think for a long time, people thought that we domesticated dogs. But it's really more like dogs domesticated themselves next to us. So like dogs basically are just really good at tricking humans into taking care of them, which is a really incredible feat.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Well, have you ever watched The Dog Whisperer and

• 6:20Ryan Holiday?

  Of course.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  And read Cesar Millan? I mean, Cesar Millan is, I feel like he's a low key stoic, like, you know, even if, I don't know if he like, if he, if he says that, but the way that he teaches, like we've been reading his book, How to Raise the Perfect Dog. That's like what Sean and I are are are reading list. But a lot of what he teaches, like educating a dog, like he calls it like being a pack leader. And, you know, always kind of like he his thing is like your dog is always gonna take on your energy. So if you have like frantic, anxious energy, like the dog will pick up on that and like always being like kind of calm and assertive. So the dog like trusts you.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  And it's like, it's really, really interesting because it makes you realize how much we are really like, how much we truly are all animals. Like he, you know, he talks about only rewarding your dog with affection when he does something that you do like. And when he, when he doesn't, like when they're over excited, just like, don't acknowledge them. As opposed to like just treating them like they're like human children and constantly being like, hey. I don't know. It's just like really interesting. Like the dog psychology part of it is really interesting.

• 7:33Ryan Holiday?

  I I did a show in New York one time, like an interview, and he was the guest before me. And I I got to meet him for like five minutes. And you can really, there are these people that have like a kind of energy that you just, it's like magical. Like it it sounds made up. Like, how could energy like be this thing that is like projected or felt? And then you watch it on TV and you're like, how could he just be like sort of magically calming these dogs? And then you experience it and you're like, oh, this is a real thing. And and it's it's a Yeah, it's nuts.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Well, I do think like, I mean, I think the more I get older, the more I'm realizing how much. I mean, we are all energy and so much of, he talks about how, you know, with dogs, it's like, no matter how much you say, no, stop, it's not your words, they don't communicate in that human language part. It's like your body language and your energy. And it's like, so much of that is true with humans too. Like no matter what someone says, it's like you can really feel. Yeah, like we are energy, like even if you're not consciously picking up on that. It's like, that's always what's underneath everything. It's.

• 8:45Ryan Holiday?

  Well, what I like about Cesar Millan is this idea that you could really be a master of anything. So like, he's like the, you know, let's say the best person in the world at that weird dog energy thing. And I was thinking, I thought about him a couple, a couple of years ago when we first started sending my kid. My son doesn't do it anymore because of the pandemic, where we started sending him to daycare. And like, when you have a kid, it's like, it's difficult to put them down for a nap, right? They don't want a nap, they run around like crazy. And then it was thinking that like, these two women who were running the daycare. One was from Cuba and the other was from Guatemala or something. And you're like, these two women put down fifteen toddlers at the same time every day.

• 9:30Ryan Holiday?

  And like, I can't even do one. And it's totally like, because I've watched him do it one time, it's totally an energy thing. Yeah.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, totally. And then it makes you like, when Cesar talks about that, like keeping a calm assertive energy for your dogs all the time, or especially when you want to discipline them, it makes you practice that muscle more.

• 9:50Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  And it's like, actually, the more that I, this is what I've been like really focusing on, like especially in the past year. Is how to, like, how much who we are is just like trained behaviors. And like, you can, you know, you can train an undisciplined dog. He could literally be a different dog, just from how you train them and how you respond to their behaviors. And it's like, the same with human beings, it's the same with your own brain, like your own. I feel like my own brain is a crazy puppy dog. But it's like really empowering, I feel like, that whole psychology of like, how you respond to things changes the things themselves. Like, I've become really obsessed with, just like that, that mastery of like,

• 10:35Speaker 01

  yourself and that mastery of your mind and your emotions, and it's just like, I feel like it's more. Emphasized by by things that I like like by the Caesar thing. I'm like, oh, it's there too, like how everything is what happens and then your response to it.

• 10:51Ryan Holiday?

  Well, have you noticed the last 70 months from the pandemic? Have you noticed like I what I've noticed is that like as you turn down the outside world, so you're not doing as much stuff, you're not as busy, you don't have as much going on, it sort of reveals to you like like my anxiety became more apparent to me. It became much more obvious that I have anxiety because it wasn't drowned out in other things. Do you know what I mean? And so I'm just curious, like, have you have you started to get in touch with energy in your own life?

• 11:21Speaker 01

  I mean, I was I was kind of fucked before the pandemic started. Like, I feel like my anxiety was like at an all time high before COVID happened. I was like, and I was kind of working through it. Like, I was like filming a movie. My album had just come out. I was doing promo, but I was like, at the same time, it was just like, I think that's why I really took in the last year, like my own healing and meditation and like all of these and exercise and nutrition, all these things super seriously, because I was I was doing these things. I was like doing promo and filming, but I was just suffering so much because of my my state of mind. And I think I

• 12:04Speaker 01

  had I had suffered from anxiety like from years before, like, I think like it, but it really hit its climax, because I don't think I paid enough attention to it. And I was just working through it, working through it, working through it. And I think when, over the last seven months, that I was able to stop in the beginning, it was my anxiety, specifically because I had time to be aware of my thoughts and what I was thinking and my thought processes, as opposed to, I gotta go perform, fuck everything I'm feeling, because I gotta do a good job, which is kind of what I did before. I was just kind of like override all of my, you know, just just

• 12:46Speaker 01

  my my internal struggles, because I was like, I gotta go on stage in 10 minutes. I can't be thinking about this, you know? And it just really gave me time to be able to be in the awareness of what thoughts were causing me suffering and anxiety and and feel it and and go through it because, honestly, because I had the time and I hadn't really had the time to Really look at what was going on inside myself for like seven years. You know, I was just constantly, I felt like my life was revolving around how to do a good job in my next performance, how to do a good job in my next writing session, whatever. And it's like, it feels like that's like the short term solution,

• 13:29Speaker 01

  but it's not the long term solution because you're actually sacrificing your authenticity and like your truth to just like do a good job as opposed to like be who you are, how you are.

• 13:44Ryan Holiday?

  Well, what I found too is that because you're good at what you do, so in your case, it's singing, for me, it's writing, is that the writing or the work is always as difficult as it is and unpredictable as it is, you have way more control over that than other things. So you can kind of channel all those energy, all that energy towards whatever you're supposed to be doing, like putting on a show. Or for me, it's like, I know I can go sit at my computer and stuff that's valuable will come out of it. But like dealing with my feelings or dealing with, you know, the more complicated stuff is much less predictable. And so you kind of end up sort of focusing on work at the expense of everything else.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Totally. And it's, it's scary. It can feel scary to be with your thoughts and feelings because it is like, that's also why, I mean, I feel like honestly, Stoicism and meditation have helped me the most in the past year, like both of those things, like the kind of, I feel like Stoicism is kind of like the cognitive reframing of stuff, which is so important because when I, the tools that I get from meditation, not even meditation, really mindfulness is the awareness of what my thought processes are. And I'm like, no wonder I have fucking anxiety because look how I'm thinking about this situation.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  And then Stoicism gives me the tools to be like, well, there's no use in thinking and obsessing about that because I can't control what's going to happen in the future. I can't control when I, the performance is tomorrow. There's no amount of thinking today. That's Gonna, if anything, it's just not, it's not useful, you know? But like, I found that the most important thing and the thing that really has given me more peace, most importantly, because I'm, I think as I'm getting older, I'm like, I feel like peace is even better than like moments of joy sometimes. Like, it's just like, so much better. What's giving me more and more peace and, and more like authenticity when I do my work

• 15:46Speaker 01

  and when I write and when I do go to, to work on my, my craft is like that mental training. I think it's so huge. And I'm like, honestly pissed that I didn't get taught those tools in school because I'm like, what the fuck? Like, I feel like I, I had to search and search and search and, and go through so much suffering. Like, I don't know what, what's been your like experience with, with anxiety, but like, I, it was fucked. Like, it's, it's, it sucks, like, feeling anxious. Like, it sucks. And I feel like I was like, feeling anxious more than not, like eight, eight months ago, you know? And it's like, it's so invaluable to have tools.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Like, you know, you're, you're not your thoughts, you're the observer of your thoughts. Or, oh, how can I reframe this situation so I don't stress about it or whatever? Or breathing, like, all of these things, like, I feel like have, are changing my experience of life. And it's like, that's, your mind is your life.

• 16:47Ryan Holiday?

  Do you feel like you can sort of gut, gut it out? Like, you can perform well anxious, you know? You can write anxious, but then it's, it's sort of realizing like, oh, actually, when you're doing it from a place of stillness or peace, or, you know, when you're, when you're not being driven by your thoughts, it's just at like a whole other level?

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Definitely. I mean, I think like, there's been so many times where, I remember like specifically a couple of times, which is, it was last year, really, there was, it was really a span of like seven months where I feel like I was really struggling with anxiety and like...

• 17:22Speaker 01

  I've talked about this openly before, like six months, it was just like at a peak. And I had two performances that I specifically remember, AMAs and SNL. And like, I finished SNL and my team was like, my manager was like, that's the best performance you've ever, you've ever done. Cause it does feel like in performance, I can channel, we were talking about energy. It's like anxious energy or suffering or pain is a lot of energy. And so it felt like I could really channel it and, and almost like, put all of that energy into every word or every movement. And it almost like, it's like when Beyonce has said before, nerves are actually a good thing because it's energy.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  And it, it suddenly, if you were hitting a move like this, that energy makes you hit it like this. Because there's so much kind of coming out. But I do think that it's not a good trade off. Because especially for example, in something like writing, when it is coming from a place of stillness and peace, like I've seen in the past few months, even like writing for my next project now, it's like, it's so much more authentic, it's so much more truthful. And I'm so much more proud of it because it's not coming from a place of that day, trying to get a certain outcome or trying to impress the other person that's in the room. Or really thinking about anything in the future.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  Like what's come from me kind of training myself to be present and just be, be truthful. And it coming from a place of stillness, I think is so much better, so much more rewarding. And honestly, fuck the result of the performance. It's like, you actually end up, your, your, your life changes. Like you're like, you're able to make connections with people because your mind isn't, you're not being like, your life isn't being drowned out by the noise of your mind. Like there's just. It's it's it's so worth it to, I feel like, invest in that mental training. Because I think a lot of times people are like, look at it as almost like, I don't have time to do that

• 19:35Speaker 01

  because I have to go do my work and I have to do all of these things. But it's like investing in yourself and in kind of like training your mind to work for you as opposed to be this thing that actually stops you from from being your best self and like blocking you. It's like, it's so, so worth it and it makes everything else better, you know?

• 19:56Ryan Holiday?

  I know exactly what you mean. It's weird to me talking to you because like, I think you're the first guest that I've had that I'm older than. I'm so used to being the the the young person because that's sort of like you. My career started very early. So all the authors that I've known or, you know, managers and agents, everyone's older. But I remember when I was, I I had this sort of epiphany when I was about your age. It was realizing like, okay, so it's working for me, like the anxiety, the intensity, the energy. I'm getting good results out of it, but it's not sustainable. Like, I don't want to do, I don't want to be in that sort of adrenalized state for the next like thirty years.

• 20:37Ryan Holiday?

  Like, you're not going to survive that way. And so it's sort of realizing like, you're not having any fun doing it. And if it's not coming from a place of stillness and contentment, like, you're going to burn out or die if you keep going this way.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Well, I think what happened to me right before the pandemic was I did burn out. Like, that's what it felt like for me. Like, I felt burnt out. I felt honestly like, I was like, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. But it it wasn't doing this. It was the way that I was doing it.

• 21:10Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  You know, it was like, I was like, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. It's so much anxiety, so much stress. I feel unhappy. I feel like my my mental health, therefore my physical health is suffering. Like, I wasn't sleeping well, like. All of these, you know, I I wasn't sleeping well. I felt like my nervous system was out of whack because I I feel like it was just a habit for me to be in this kind of fight or flight state. And what what were you just saying before that?

• 21:37Ryan Holiday?

  Well, just like how how you can sustain this, because I think what's interesting is like mo- most most singers in your position, it seems like they they have a meltdown in their mid thirties, right? Like it doesn't seem to last.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. Well, I think that I would have. I would have at some point. It would have been unsustainable and I would have been like, I actually have to stop. I don't know when I'm gonna come back and do this, but at this point, my health is suffering and I and I have to stop. And I was kind of forced to stop by

• 22:09Ryan Holiday?

  Right, we all were.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  by everything by everything that happened. And I it was like, it was really necessary time, like it was necessary for me to kind of go go through really just like, I wrote this article about like for Mental Health Awareness Month about OCD and about anxiety. And it's like, with anything, it's like with your physical health, if you break a leg, like you gotta heal the leg and nobody's like judging you for it. You just like, take some time and you you know, you get a cast and you can't walk for five days because it's you gotta recover. And I think like with mental health, it's like, it's different. It's, you know, nothing's gonna happen if if you just do nothing. But it is worth taking time to be to treat it, you know,

• 22:55Speaker 01

  even if it's like ten minutes a day of like doing exercise or doing something that you know that is good for your mental health or, you know, like, really, there's there's so many different things. But um, I in the past eight months, I feel like I've like, literally, my life has changed. Like, I'm like so thankful for it because I I think that I would have spent a lot of years being unhappy and at the same time, this weird thing of just like, not like just keeping going because you think that's what you're supposed to do. And yeah, I'm just like, I'm so thankful for this time because I I feel like I'm like

• 23:36Speaker 01

  More and more, just the boss of my own mind and the boss of my own life, as opposed to feeling kind of like victimized by anxiety and and mental health struggles. Like, I feel like that was like constantly something that I had to overcome to do things. And now I kind of like did it the other way where I'm like, I'm gonna get to the root of this fucker. So that I can, you know, so I can just like be be free of it. And it's totally possible.

• 24:06Ryan Holiday?

  That's something the Stoics talk about, which is like, what good is success? If the result is that you don't feel like you're in charge of your own mind or your own life? Like, how how is that success?

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Exactly. And that's like not what this society, we as a society are taught. And actually, so much of I feel like healing is being like, what of this is like what I actually want? And what of this is just like what everybody else is doing and I'm doing it because everybody else is doing it like that? You know, and stillness is the key. Like, that really resonated with me. Like, what's your definite and ego is enemy too. And it's like, all of these questions about like, what is success to you? Like, is success? Being famous and having these awards? And I I feel like it's especially a necessary teaching nowadays because I have like, you know, my little cousin who's like eight years old and I'm like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And she's like, I want to be TikTok famous. And I'm like,

• 25:04Speaker 01

  it's like these values of like, no, what's important is, you know, how content you are with your life. Like, the level of of gratitude that you experience. The most importantly for me right now, like, the connections that you have with your your family and your friendships and your community. And that your purpose, like you're, I genuinely do feel like my purpose is in in art, you know? I don't think I actually, even though it's always been my passion, my favorite thing to do, like, I feel like in the past eight months, I really was like, oh, no, this is like what I what I want to do, you know? Like, this is like what I feel like my my purpose is. And it's like not doing it

• 25:45Speaker 01

  for any out any outcome of like being famous or success or what people think of you, which it can subconsciously, like, I know. I mean, I can only speak for myself, but like even when you don't say that to yourself, like I've never been like, I want to be the most famous. I want to be number one. I've never said that. But I remember like reading ego is the enemy and being like, but then at the same time, I go to do a writing session and I care so much about what these people in the room think of, think of me. Like, I'm like, so insecure and, and afraid and like, that's ego too, because I'm still not doing it for the right reasons. Like, the, the, the right reason is to tell my truth. That's it. Period.

• 26:30Ryan Holiday?

  There's a great Marcus Rilis quote. He says, um, we care about other, we care about ourselves more than other people. He says, but we care about other people's opinion more than our own.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Right. Love that quote.

• 26:41Ryan Holiday?

  It's so true. Like, you pour yourself into this thing, doing it the way that only you want to do it, you know, and then, and then all of a sudden, it comes out. And then what you're thinking is like, did other people say it's good or not? And sometimes you need a project. I, I did a book a few years ago, this book called Conspiracy, which I think is my best book, but it sold the, the least well out of all of them. It didn't like fail, it just, it just didn't do maybe what it could have done. And what was really freeing about that experience was it totally decoupled, like, critical success and sales for me from like, what I know is good. And that's like, it was such a huge breakthrough.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  It was such a huge breakthrough for me when I saw, like, a couple of months ago, I was, I was like, you know, I read ego, I read Obstacle is the Way, like, I think like two years ago. And I, that was actually my, my, for my second album, I read, um, a friend of mine gave me, uh, that book. And so I read it and it, I remember like, reading it and then for the next like, two months while I was reading it, like, my writing sessions were like, amazing because everything, even, even my own insecurity and my own like, fear, I was kind of using it to fuel, you know, I was doing that, that, uh, Stoic teaching that I love so much, the Amor Fati, the taking everything and, and.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  Even the bad stuff and loving that it happened, not just accepting it, but being like, "Oh, I'm gonna use this now." And that's the first time I read that book. Then like, two years later, I read Stillness is the Key. And that was actually when I was, when I was, that was like, a year ago, actually. That's when I was going through the height of my, uh, my, my mental health crisis. And, um, that really impacted me. And then during quarantine, I read Ego is the Enemy. And I started really getting into Stoicism. And I got like, the Daily Stoic Journal. And I was reading the Daily Stoic videos. And one video that really resonated with me was the one where you're talking about

• 28:48Speaker 01

  how Stoics define success and, and the internal scoreboard. And how it's like, there's success that's like, okay, how many views did this get? How many likes did this get? Uh, how successful is this, is this song or this album gonna be? And that's all the things that you can't control. So if you measure success like that, or how other, what other people in the room think of me, then you're gonna be unhappy your whole life. But if you change your definition of success, which I really prac, I've really been practicing when I've been writing for this album. If I change my definition of success to, how honest was I today? How vulnerable was I today? How, you know, did I, did I show up completely as myself? Was I kind to, to people?

• 29:32Speaker 01

  You know, was, did I see people? Did I make this a fun experience for everybody in the room? Like, if I just keep it in, in terms of, if I just focus on what I can control in this moment, then at the end of every day, I was like, it was, it was a successful day. Even if I did feel anxious or nervous, I was like, my metrics, my metric of success was, "Hey, guys, I, I feel a little nervous," you know? And I was truthful. And therefore, I met with my, like, standard of success. And it's like, That's so much more important. Like, it's so much more important to be the the person that you want to be and and lead with with that than like how other people perceive

• 30:13Speaker 01

  you or what people perceive you. Like, that's like what I what I love about Stoicism and like what I feel like is gonna be my philosophy of life forever is like, which it wasn't before, like, I feel like I was leading with what I was doing instead of who I was being, you know? It's like, you know, I was, I just like, now I'm I'm so conscious of like, me being brave and courageous and kind and, you know, and truthful and, you know, me, me, my character comes before any of the things that I do.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  Hey, it's Ryan. Got a quick message from one of our sponsors, and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned.

• 30:56Ryan Holiday?

  One of the reasons I think it's it's important, too, it's not just like decoupling success from results because like you could fail or whatever. But I remember I was watching the Taylor Swift documentary, the Netflix one a few months ago. And she's talking about this moment where she wins like Album of the Year, she has the number one album of the, all these things. And she's just sort of like, now what? Like, she's unhappy because she got everything she wanted. And that's a real thing, too. If you have told yourself this lie that like, I will be happy when I accomplish X, then you get X. And it's really disappointing. And that's when you also kind of realize like, oh, you can't be doing it for these external things. You have to be doing it because you love music

• 31:39Ryan Holiday?

  and the byproduct is these extra things.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Totally. And that's like where I feel like the the meditation stuff has been really useful is that it's constantly like, your brain is always telling you.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Is always like stuck in the past or in the future, where in the future, things will be better. Or in the past, things were better. Or in the past, things were bad, and now they're still gonna be bad. Or in the future, this might happen, so that's gonna be scary. And now this moment is bad. It's like, but none of that is true. And it's like, you, you also, another Stoic teaching that I love is like, you, you could fucking die at any moment. So it's like, why would you put it off? It's like, also, it's like, the stuff that you're practicing in your mind and who you're practicing being as a person in this moment is who you're gonna be in, in, you know, six months from now.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  If you keep doing it the same way, like, you know, if you are always like looking at what you don't have and what you need to be happy, then that habit in your brain, it's like a pattern. Like, that's not gonna stop, you know? And I feel like I've like, I feel like I also discovered about myself like in the past year, like, I don't really see myself as like, I don't think I've ever been a, like a negative person or a pessimistic person. Like, I think I'm pretty optimistic. I'm like pretty like bubbly and like, and hopeful. But I have recognized like within my own mind, how much like, which is what anxiety is.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  It's like anticipating the future or not being present enough to see like what's going on around you. And yeah, just like, I've been practicing that lately a lot. It's just like looking around and being like, oh, I'm like so grateful to like have water and like be talking to one of my favorite authors and, you know, have a puppy. Like, I'm so grateful for puppies, that puppies exist. Like, just like the practice of always looking around and, and like training that muscle of like wonder and, and gratitude, it's like. That I'm like, just like excited for 10 years from now, when hopefully that's just like

• 33:57Speaker 01

  a a personality trait and not something that I have to practice, you know, but like it does, things do become like actual personality traits when you practice them, just like anxiety. Then I was like, oh, fuck, I'm an anxious person, but I'm not. It's just that's what I've been practicing.

• 34:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, a friend of mine was saying something they they were talking about. They were like, uh, they were like, I don't like, they'd always felt that they were like scared of driving at night. They didn't like driving at night. And then they realized they're like, oh, no, no, my mom is scared of driving at night. And I just like picked that up. They're like, that's not actually who I am. And that they were like, I can discard that and just practice a new skill where I am not scared of driving.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Totally. I actually have that. My grandma has a fear of birds. And sometimes like birds will be flapping. I'll be like, huh. And I'll be like, wait, why am I, oh, it's my, my grandma's fear. It's, it's, it's weird.

• 34:50Ryan Holiday?

  It's just made up.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  It's, it's made up. And there is also, I don't know how much of this is theory and how much of it is science. And I, this might be, I, I actually want to be careful with that because I don't, I'm not sure. But it is like, some stuff is passed down, like through your, through your genes and stuff. I don't know if a fear of, of birds is, but you can, but what is also like, I think.

• 35:12Ryan Holiday?

  Reinforce it over and over again.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Yes. You can, you can almost like turn on or turn off the gene based on like what you, what you do. You know, this is my second ever podcast.

• 35:21Ryan Holiday?

  Really? What was the first one?

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Uh, my vocal, my vocal teacher is starting a podcast.

• 35:27Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, that's so nice.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so we did like a, we did a podcast about, about singing. Sean did it too. But this is my second ever one. Am I doing a good job?

• 35:34Ryan Holiday?

  You're, you're doing great. You're doing great.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  ego is the enemy.

• 35:40Ryan Holiday?

  To, to go back to what you were saying about, you know, being happy for water and a dog, I, I think the Stoics talk about like how little is actually needed to have a happy or a good life. And I think one of the things COVID has done is sort of shrink our expectations for what we need. And It's been nice for me. I'd be curious about this for you. Like, I found that once I sort of started looking much more inward, started looking much more around my immediate surroundings. And I have a lot less interest in what other people are doing. And that's contributed to my happiness in a huge way. You, it's hard for people to realize, like, I remember I had dinner with this billionaire a few years ago. And he was like talking to me about the Forbes list.

• 36:23Ryan Holiday?

  Like, he was talking about like the other people on the Forbes list. And it's like, you're a billionaire and you're, you're even still, you're like comparing yourself to other people. But that idea that comparison is the thief of joy. Because it makes it, instead of being able to appreciate that you have a puppy, you're like, oh, but somebody has, you know, a mansion and a puppy, and therefore I'm deficient for not having both.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  That's so true. And like what's sad is, that's probably like that, that trait is probably a big part of why he's a billionaire. Because he was constantly like, oh, you know, this person has more than me, I gotta work harder. This, and like, that's something that I feel like is always, is kind of subconsciously taught to us too, is that competitive thing. Like, I know, I feel like even probably more, I've seen it so much in my industry of like, you know, I felt it within myself, like just being like, oh, my God, like I have so much to be grateful for. Like, I look at where I started, I never thought I would be here. The fact that I even get to do this is fucking insane.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  And then you go to, I experienced this so much, like when I would go to award shows where it's like, they call, they do this thing at award shows, it's great for your ego, in the good and bad way. It's totally sarcastic. But they call out everybody's names and then like everybody, you know, the people around will clap. And it's like, I just like, I remember going to award shows and, you know, they'd be like, Ariana Grande, wah! And they'd be like, Camila Cabello. And like, they would, in, in my mind, they would be clapping a lot less for me. And I'd be like, oh, my God. And it would just like affect you so much to the point where like you would go up to get an award. And you'd, you'd be like, oh, my God, I, I don't, I don't deserve this.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Like, I heard it in the room, not as many people clapped for me. And then it makes you, then there's the thing that happens in your brain where you're like, I gotta work harder. I gotta, I gotta, I gotta work hard. And it's like, it's, I hate that, that version of myself. Like, I don't hate, I don't hate, but you know, I, I don't, that's not a pleasant version of myself. Because then, once I'm out of that space, especially now that I have been for like a year, it's like, you wanna be like, who cares? Like, I'm just happy to be here. Like, I, whatever, you know? And you wanna be happy for the, the people that got, you know, the, the loudest cheers and the most awards. Like, it's like, it's like really enforced, uh, probably in all industries. But I, I, I can speak about like the music industry.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  Like, there is this sense of, of competition and constantly like, you know, trying to be the number one. And I, I actually, I have to say, like, I do feel that when I'm at award shows. And if I'm on social media, you know, and I'm looking at what every other artist is doing. Like, there is that part of, of you that'll be like, I gotta work harder, I gotta do more. But I have always felt like, this is actually my favorite chapter in probably any of the books. But in Stillness is the key, when you talk about this metaphor for, it's like, if everybody on this planet, plus the planet, is one human body,

• 39:42Speaker 01

  it's like, there's the person that, you know, symbolizes the eye. And the eye's gotta be the best eye, not the best hand, just gotta be the best eye. And that kind of metaphor for all of our roles, really, I feel like, stuck with me because...

• 39:59Speaker 01

  I've always felt like maybe it's like it's not everybody's job to be number one. It's just your job to be you, like the world needs you to be you. And it's like even that book Conspiracy, it's like even if it sold less than all the other books, there's a group of people that fucking loved it. And it really affected them deeply and nobody could have done that except for you. And it's like, I feel like that about some people that are like, you know, some, you know, meditation teachers or, you know, people, you know, people that maybe not a lot of people know or, or singers or artists that not a lot of people know, but for me, they've affected me so deeply.

• 40:41Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  And it's like, I, I, I feel like I've really carried that and I'm gonna try to always carry that. Next time I go to one of those award shows and, and just be like, I can only just like be the best me. And if, if five people like really resonated with what I said, like, that's great. And maybe that person is, is meant to, you know, it's like they're the eye and I'm the hand. I just gotta be the best hand. But that really takes the pressure off when I go into the studio. Like, I'm not like trying to get a number one song. I'm just trying to be as true to myself as possible because that's what is gonna deeply, not superficially, but I think deeply affect people.

• 41:25Ryan Holiday?

  Well, look, and you could-

• 41:25Speaker 01

  Maybe that's not true. I don't know.

• 41:27Ryan Holiday?

  No, no, you, you, you gotta, you're doing the song and you could die before the song comes out. So you have to think about whether it was just as, whether it was its own reward. I think that's where I, I try to think about that. It's like, look, think about all the authors whose books came out after they died and then were a success. So like they didn't get to enjoy any of that. So if they didn't enjoy making it, that's really, really sad. If they weren't proud of it when they finished, that's like the saddest thing in the world.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  And I've actually had experiences where I didn't have a great time that day in the studio. And that song became successful and I ended up really disliking the song. Like I never liked it, even if it was successful. I didn't even wanna perform it. And like my, my, my team would, would be mad at me and be like, but this has this many streams. And I'd be like, I don't like that. I don't like it. I'm not gonna perform it. And I didn't.

• 42:23Ryan Holiday?

  Wow.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  But but I've actually like, you know, I've I've kind of, I gotta say, I gotta pat myself on on on the back because I have always been really like ruthless about I don't not really like giving a fuck about the commercial success part. Like I I do have like subconscious fears about like if I'm writing like what people in the room think of me and if I'm writing with Pharrell, I'm like, I really want him to think that I'm good. You know, I have I have that thing, but I I definitely like the whole billboard, the charts and like writing stuff for it to, you know, be a number one and sound like everything else on on the radio. Like I've I've always like really not been into that. And when I don't like

• 43:09Speaker 01

  something like I just like, I won't, I won't do it because I'm just like, I can't.

• 43:15Ryan Holiday?

  I wrote this email for Daily Stoic, which I'll forward to you. It was a couple of years ago, but it struck me once I was listening to, I don't know, it was like hits of the nineties on Spotify or something. And I'd heard of like most of the songs because that that's sort of when I was a teenager. And then then it was like, then I was listening to like eighties and I knew a lot of the songs because I like sort of heavy metal and stuff. And then then I went seven, I was going backwards in time. And it was interesting to me how quickly, these were the biggest songs of that period. How quickly, not only like I wasn't like super familiar with them, but some of them like I not only never heard the song before, I hadn't even heard the name of the person who'd done it. Right? And that's something the Stoics talk about, which is just kind of how ephemeral it all

• 44:00Ryan Holiday?

  is. And so if you're not enjoying it, and if you're doing it because you've deluded yourself into thinking you're going to be like famous for all time, this will be this legacy that lasts forever, you're really depriving yourself of the present moment, which is all that you have.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  It's so true. It's so true. I had a friend who once told me like, you know, we were speaking about like legacy and he was just like, legacy is like for everybody else.

• 44:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Like it's like, it's not something, it's not something that you get to enjoy. And it's also like, who, I always remind myself this, like, is everybody, is anybody really gonna care? Like in? A million years, like who even knows if we're gonna be here? Like, you know, who knows? Like, who was the most hundreds of thousands of years ago? And we were just like in in tribes and there was like a famous famous singer woman around the campfire. Like, she was the best, she was the best one, but I don't know her name.

• 44:57Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  You know, like, it's, uh, it is like, that's such a refreshing concept. It really is. And that's like something that Ego is the Enemy taught me, too. I was just like, when I get so riled up about a writing session or an interview or a performance, I'm truly thinking too much of myself. Like, nobody cares that much. And like, the people that I that do, like, I actually, I just finished filming Cinderella, uh, which is like my first film that I ever did. And I was Cinderella, which is crazy.

• 45:30Ryan Holiday?

  Incredible.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  But talk about that. I mean, it was, it was, it was amazing, but it's like, it was, it's a, it felt like a pretty high pressure thing to do is I I'd never been in a film before. And I was, you know, the lead role for my first film. And that took a lot of like, really, I had a lot of like mental tools for me to show up every day and be able to have fun and not think and not really make that pressure the focus. Like, I remember, I actually, do you know Michael Gervais?

• 45:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I do. Uh huh.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Okay, so I I work with him.

• 46:02Ryan Holiday?

  Really?

• 46:02Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:03Ryan Holiday?

  Is that how you found out about my books?

• 46:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 46:06Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, okay. No, Michael's amazing.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. He told me that, he told me that, um, you guys are friends. And there's been many times where we talk on the phone and I'm like, I was reading Ryan Holiday's book. And he's like, Ryan, he's a good friend of mine.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  And, um, anyway, so I was, uh, I I've I've talked to Michael Gervais a lot. And, um, while I was doing the filming, I would talk to him about just like the stuff that I was experiencing. I'd be like, hey, tomorrow is a big scene, um, you know, I'm feeling nervous, whatever. And, um, he was just like, he's, he's, he's given me a lot of wisdom about when I do get nervous before things, like writing sessions or wherever that I'm gonna be like in a in a vulnerable place. Cause Doing that film was like really, it's really vulnerable. Acting is is really vulnerable because it's like you have to be so present. There's no outsmarting it. There's no like practicing the line before and then you like, it's like all of it is really reacting

• 47:05Speaker 01

  to what's going on in front of you and and being present. And I had to kind of like make peace with the fact that this is for, I remember I was like, when I first came back from the pandemic, because we shot it over two different periods of time, I came back and I was like, I was feeling nervous when when when I saw the camera and when the camera was in front of me and he was like, you're equating the the camera with with who, with what? And I was like, people, like people that are that are judging my performance and people. And he's like, okay, how do we like turn that around? Who would you want the camera to to to symbolize or represent?

• 47:47Speaker 01

  And I was like, just like, you know, like a a young girl that's like a fan of mine. And she's just like wide eyed and she's excited and she had a bad day and she just like wants some joy. She's looking for some joy when she watches this movie. And we actually like, I named the camera after like one of my, one of my like closest fans. Her her name's Julia and I just would picture her there. And it's like anytime I'm nervous, I just picture who is this really for? Like, it's really for my fans, like it's for.

• 48:19Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  It's for Julia, it's for Aurora, it's for Steph. I'm naming, actually, I'm naming some fans for Dom, shout out. But it's like these people that you are like, it's just as simple as that. It's not about your legacy or being the greatest of all time or anything like that. Like if that happens, like, cool, but it's it's just to make people happy. It's like not really, doesn't have to be more complex than that. And that's like the most rewarding, I feel, like way of thinking about it for me. It's like that's, that was my my purpose in that movie. It wasn't even to prove that I'm like a a great actress or whatever.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  Like I I just, I if I just made them smile and and made them happy, like that's who it's for. It's not. For any kind of outcome or or reputation or praise.

• 49:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, there's a Bertrand Russell quote where he's saying like, the first sign of a an impending nervous collapse is the belief that your work is terribly, terribly important.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  So true. I've experienced it firsthand.

• 49:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's because it is important to you and because it is important to your livelihood and because there is pressure, you sort of internalize it all and it becomes this like massive thing. And it's like, it's really, it's like you're in my case, it's like you're writing words on the computer. Like, this is not, this is not that important.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  And like the, I feel like the idea of, which I feel like extends beyond like what you do. It's like, I have found like, especially in the last eight months, like, how important it is to have, to feel a sense of purpose, no matter what you do. Like, it doesn't matter if you're in the arts, or if you're a doctor, or if you're a teacher, or if you are, you know, it does, it doesn't matter if you're an Uber driver, it doesn't matter. Like, I think like, having a sense of purpose makes life so much better. Because if you're like, you know, my purpose is just to make people smile today. My purpose is to, you know, make people believe in the goodness of other people. Like, I think like, when you like,

• 50:29Speaker 01

  wake up every day, thinking that, it just like, you don't want to waste a day because you know you have a job to do. I actually read over the past eight months, I don't know if you, I think you have read it because you quoted a lot, the Gita, the Bhagavad Gita.

• 50:41Ryan Holiday?

  Of course.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  I love, I loved it. It really impacted me. I loved like, the, the way that they described, when they said, you have the right to work, you don't have the right to the fruits of your work.

• 50:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Have you read Steven Pressfield at all?

• 50:56Speaker 01

  No.

• 50:57Ryan Holiday?

  So you would love Steven Pressfield. He wrote a book called The War of Art, which I think is like, the best book about the sort of creative process ever, ever written. But he also, he, he, he made a novel about it called The, The Legend of Bagger Vance, which is also a movie with Will Smith and Matt Damon. But that is like, sort of a modern, it's, it's the Bhagavad Gita, but applied to a professional golfer. But his, his stuff is amazing. And I think, it's like, you, you have to have this sense of purpose and this sense of sort of it fitting in a large tradition, like. Like, so it's weird. I think on the one end, you're like, I'm just scribbling words down on the computer like this isn't that important. But then also what you were saying where you were like, you know, tens of thousands of years ago, there was some woman who was like singing as part of a tribe.

• 51:40Ryan Holiday?

  That's the other thing, though, where I think you get purpose is you go, oh, but I'm also part of this really long tradition that it's not about me, but this thing is, goes back eons and eons and, and that that you take your identity and your purpose from being sort of like one speck on a really long line.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Totally. And I find that to be like so much more comforting than just like being on your own and then everybody else. Like, it's so much more comforting to know. And I really do believe that that's the truth, that we are like little cells in this big body, this big system that we can't even understand. But it's like, all of our actions and our energy and like, and really, and, and our, and our energy and how we are, like it, it really has a ripple effect, like a huge ripple effect. Yeah, that's like a really comforting thing to, to, to think, in my opinion, that we are like, we're not alone.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  We're all like deeply, deeply interconnected with each other and with, with nature. And it's like, we're not ever alone because we're, we're part of this huge higher intelligence. Like, we were, that's where we, we came from.

• 53:00Speaker 02

  Hey, it's Ryan. Got a quick message from one of our sponsors and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned.

• 53:06Ryan Holiday?

  There's a joke that every writer wishes they were a musician. And I, I think it's because like you get to experience that when you perform, right? Like you get to watch 20,000 people come together as one entity that you're in charge of, but you're also a part of yourself. That must be very overwhelming emotionally to experience.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Definitely. I mean, it's really beautiful to see people like tapped into this thing. I mean, music is so incredible for, that's like my favorite part of like being a human and not any other animal is like, is, is music and delicious food. But.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  But uh, yeah, I mean, it's it's amazing. I'm just like remembering because I I don't I don't remember the last time I played a show like I think it must have been like a year and a half ago or or something like that, but uh it's really beautiful. And like when you see people like sing stuff and they're like crying and they're you really see like them kind of uh experiencing like a catharsis of their own life and their own emotions and like you're doing that too, but you're all kind of doing it there together like it's a really beautiful sense of of community and like where you see like how your story makes

• 54:27Speaker 01

  it makes a difference, you know, like sharing your your story exactly as you would share it makes a really big difference. And that's what I like. I another thing that I feel like has been a common theme for me like it when especially when I was doing the movie like I was like I'm not trying to be like a good actress. I'm not trying to do a good job. I just have to be me and like and with all of my shit, like all of my anxieties and this and that and my struggles and this like the the world needs everybody to be exactly who they are and share their story exactly as they are because the more like specific you get, I feel like

• 55:09Speaker 01

  the less people feel alone because everybody is like there's nothing new that you and I have felt that somebody else hasn't. And that's like what makes you feel less alone is when people are like open to to sharing that. And I, yeah, I you definitely feel that in in a show.

• 55:30Ryan Holiday?

  Do you know Casey Neistat?

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, this is so funny because Sean asked me that same question two months ago because he and Sean are friends because Sean is obsessed with like uh taking videos now and Casey got Casey gave him a camera.

• 55:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, so Casey's amazing. And I remember he did this video a couple of years ago where he was showing like the different he was like different levels of art. So there's like or or inventions like you make something and it's great. You make something that it's popular. That's great. You make something that's really popular. It's great or whatever. But he was talking about how like the ultimate form of art is to make art that helps people make more art.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  Love.

• 56:08Ryan Holiday?

  And so he's like, the iPhone may be the greatest invention of all time because like, think of all the things that people have done with their phones. But what I think is so powerful about music is that it it it's great itself. Like when you listen to a great song and it, you know, has some amazing guitar solo in it, or it's like emotionally vulnerable and it it's beautiful. Or the singer is doing something incredible with her voice. Do you ever think about like, so you have songs that have done like a billion plays. Do you ever think about like what people have done with that? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, think about the art that your art has helped people make because they were painting while one of your songs was on in the studio or, you know what I mean?

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Totally, totally. I mean, that's such a cool thing to think about, like that ripple effect. And like I've seen like with my own fans, like, you know, them sending me videos of them doing covers or like them learning how to play guitar to this one song of mine. A couple, a couple of like my, like a few, a few of my fans have written poetry books because they've like gotten into into poetry. Like, yeah, it is like that, that conversation that just like inspires people because art is like, it's just so cool. Like, it's just like we get to make things. Like, it's, it's so cool. Sorry, that was, that was a not a, not a very eloquent sentence.

• 57:28Ryan Holiday?

  No, no, there's sort of an ineffable-ness to it, right? It's like you just, you just, well, there's a Longfellow poem where he talks about like sort of footprints in the sands of time, that that's what art is. There's a, there's a Latin saying, I forget what it is, but the, but the basically the saying is like, life is short, but art is long. And that like you have the, it has, you can capture something in a moment when you, you know, like I wrote my first book when I was 25 and that book is still relevant. And it's like, I've moved on, but that book is still there and people are still interacting with it. And yeah, you see what it helps people do. It's just, it, to me, that's the ultimate reward of doing the stuff, much more so than, than any like sort of sales or charts. It's like, if your thing impacts one person, you're like, wow.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's also like, I feel like when you're really old, like when you're like 90 or something, you can look back on it and be like, this is who I was at this point in time. I can't do that now because it's too cringey. But, but when you're old, you'd be like, oh, my God. Or you could show your, your kids, like your kids are gonna read your books. Like, that's so, your grandkids are gonna read your books, like. That is so cool. That's really cool. There's this phrase that I really love about music. Um, actually, it's about art in general, but my, I have this acting coach who is this like incredible person. He's, he's also an author. Um, you should read, read his, his book. He, he has

• 58:54Speaker 01

  a few, but he has one called At Left Brain, At Right Brain Turn Left, or At Left Brain Turn Right, or something. But anyway, he has, there was this phrase that he, he actually just, uh, directed a film too. And there's this line in it that's like, these aren't just phrases, they're human outcries.

• 59:13Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, sure.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  And, and I just like love that about, and that really makes me think of music because so much of the time, it's like the chord progression or what you're saying, like, I feel like that, especially when I'm like just kind of listening to, to chords and just making melodies or doing ad-libs. It's like, it's coming from this place of no thought. It's just coming from a place of, of feeling or just like full, just like feeling, like it's just like, because I find when I'm like really in my head, I can't even ad-lib. Like I, I can't, because it's just, is all feeling. And I think for my personality type, because sometimes I've, I'm like,

• 59:56Speaker 01

  I say sometimes now, probably a couple of years ago, would have been most of the times, I'm like so in my head that it's a really nice, like, medicine for that. And it's, uh, yeah, it's like so like, it's almost like, what's the word? So like primal, you know what I mean?

• 1:00:13Ryan Holiday?

  No, that's why, that's why writers are jealous of musicians, because like what you're able to do instantaneously, it requires like hundreds of pages for a book to do.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  But it does, but it's different because sometimes musicians wish they could be writers because you can very like, you can leave people with in, in instructional wisdom, like just like it is, like it's, it's just like, this is, you know, you can, you can touch people in a, in a really, really direct way, like super like, like life-changing way. Um, I, I feel like they're, they're different. And then some, some songs can do that, but in music, it's like you have to dilute it so much that it is actually more of a feeling than like, than. Then words of wisdom, it's just like a, almost like you captured a feeling in a jar.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  And it's like that you open the jar and it's like, and that's like the feeling, whether it's like, you know, being in love or sadness or empowerment. It's almost like this jar of like emotion that's like exploding. And then writing is like, it's just so like, it's exactly what you, what you want to say, you know? So musicians want to be writers too. Sean and I have, we've been like, I'm gonna write a book now.

• 1:01:37Ryan Holiday?

  Your expression that a song is like an emotion in a jar is very beautiful. Cause I, I was gonna ask you, I have this super weird habit. When I write, I, when I listen to music, it's almost always like, like I might hear a song of yours and be like, I like that song. And then I will listen to that song on repeat for like 200 times.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  That's so funny.

• 1:01:55Ryan Holiday?

  And then I'll, I'll probably not listen to it again. But so when I write, it's, it's almost like I have these disposable songs. So like, I'll, I'll pick something and then that, I'm just trying, like, and you play it on repeat to a, a way where all kind of blurs together. And then you almost like kind of disassociate a little bit and then that's where my writing comes from. And so for me, it's like, it's always about finding that like hit, like that sense that some magical song that captures what I need. And then I want to like-

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  Wait, so then, wait, so you listen to a song over and over?

• 1:02:27Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  And then you, you kind of repeat it over and over until like, and that's the emotion that you want? And then that'll inspire you to write?

• 1:02:35Ryan Holiday?

  No, it's like, I'll hear a song and be like, I like that song. And then that goes, and then it's like, I'm, I'm like, like a vampire, just like sucking all of that out. So, so while I'm writing, this is why I can't ever share an office. I'll have to like, listen to that song on full volume, you know, like in every room of the space, just playing over and over and over and over and over again, until like, I'm basically sick of it. Or it's not that I'm sick of it, I'll listen to it so many times, it'll, it will have been stripped of all of its meaning. Until I, it doesn't mean anything else to me and then I move on to the next song. Is that weird?

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  You think, you think that it doesn't mean anything else to you, but then when you listen to that song, one year from now or two years from now, it's gonna take you back. To when you were listening to it all the time, because there are songs that like, I mean, there's songs that Sean and I would play basically the same eight songs, like the first couple of months that we were dating, and I put those songs on now and I literally feel like I'm gonna have some kind of stroke, because it it just takes me back to like, my heart like starts racing, it's crazy, it it just really takes you back to to to that time, but it's because we obsessively played them. I actually feel like I have a different relationship with music now,

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  since the, since the pandemic. Well, I feel like I used to, like my sister's thirteen and she listens to music all the time, but like, she listens to really intense songs all the time, just in the background, like, you know, we were talking and she's like, has Yellow by Coldplay on, like, over and over and over.

• 1:04:06Ryan Holiday?

  That's, that's, that's a good example of a song that, yeah, I might play like two hundred times.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Over and over, right.

• 1:04:11Ryan Holiday?

  And, right. But, but yeah, as your point, I do remember hearing that song when I was in tenth grade, and it like now represents that to me.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  Totally, and if you played it, you'd probably have this whole like flashback reel. But I think nowadays, I can't, I have realized how much music, like really, certain songs with words really are such a like mood dictator for me, like they really trigger an emotional response. So I don't just have them, like, I I'm not really like, I don't really passively listen to to music, like if I ju- I have music on in the background, it's just like instrumental stuff, or more like ambiance, like, you know, Spanish guitar or something just in the background, but I can't really like, listen to song songs passively anymore. Like, the other day I went to the dentist,

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  and I had to go to the dentist, and it was like, they had like a TV playing, like HGTV, and songs from like the early two thousands playing, and the dentist was talking to me, and I was like, this is so much stimulation, like I, it's insane. I couldn't focus on what she was saying, because when a song is playing, like my, I'll just gravitate towards the song, but it just made me think like, it's just so, I don't know, like, I I can't, I I have to listen to songs when I'm like, I'm gonna really like, like watching a movie, you know?

• 1:05:35Ryan Holiday?

  Do you listen, do you really read?

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  I actually don't. Maybe I I I think I would if it was. I mean, I could not do music, songs with words while reading, because that would be insane. But I could probably do some like instrumental. But it just like, I feel like it still dictates the mood so much, like it like, it taints what you're reading. Like if you were, if I start to hear like some piano music and it's sad, immediately I'll be, I'll have like nostalgic thoughts or like a nostalgic feeling if I, you know, it like really colors the mood. So I'm like, I'm more intentional about, about it now.

• 1:06:15Ryan Holiday?

  But to bring this full circle, and the way that like Caesar Milan is like somehow on the wavelength with a dog, because he spent so many countless hours doing it. I got to imagine, given your relationship with music and what it's meant in your life, you probably feel it at a level that like, a normal person can listen to music in the background. But you are oper- you know what I mean? You, that's like your superpower is your ability to connect with words and, and with sound.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  That's actually true. I hadn't thought about it like that, but that, that might be true. Because the other day we were like, I hadn't listened to songs with words in a while and, and Sean put on like John Mayer's like continuum and I was like,

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  he put on like Dreaming with a Broken Heart and I was like, this is crazy. It's just like so, I don't, yeah, I, I think you're right. Especially when I've kind of like, just been listening to instrumental chill stuff, like when I put on like a song like that, it's like, it's like such a stark difference between like passive instrumental music and like a breakup song, you know? It's like.

• 1:07:19Ryan Holiday?

  I think, I could, I think there's a John Mayer song in each one of my books that was like a repeat song that I probably.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  Really? That's so cool. Are you a John Mayer fan?

• 1:07:29Ryan Holiday?

  I am, but it's, it more like in the sense of like, there's a handful of songs that I really like, but, um, and.

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  What's your favorite?

• 1:07:38Ryan Holiday?

  Well, so he has a cover of Freefallen by Tom Petty that I think is almost as good as the original.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  Come on, I think it's better than the original.

• 1:07:46Ryan Holiday?

  It's so good.

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  I love that song.

• 1:07:51Ryan Holiday?

  I may have listened to that one during Stillness. It may have been, it may have been ego. I don't remember, but I probably listened to that song like 300 times, 400 times.

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  Me too, me too. Actually, that was my number one most listened to song when I was like 14. It was my number one song. So I listened to it 300 times too. Like now, I, I feel like I know every part of that song. Like if my voice could do eight instruments, I could, that's how many times I've listened to that song. It's so good.

• 1:08:21Ryan Holiday?

  No, it's, it's, it's incredible. And, but even like we're talking about like what a mus, what a musician can do in just so, such a short amount of time. Like even the opening chords in that song, like in the, the Tom Petty version, you're just like, that, that, that's just, I think there's a handful of songs that'll hit me and you're just like, this is what mastery feels and looks like. Like this is the culmination of a lifetime created these three seconds of music.

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  Right. Well, I, I have a que, I'm, I'm, I'm curious about, cause you, we've been, we've been talking and you're like, you write every single day.

• 1:08:58Ryan Holiday?

  Mm hmm. Pretty much.

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  So, but like, let's say, new book came out yesterday. Are you writing this morning?

• 1:09:05Ryan Holiday?

  So the day, the day that my most recent book came out, which is Lives of the Stoics, I was finishing the draft of my next book.

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  Wow. That's cool.

• 1:09:18Ryan Holiday?

  So, this is actually something I'm jealous of with, with musicians where like you can put out an album like right away. Lives was finished in January of 2020 and it just came out. So it, it takes so much longer. Most of the time, I mean, they can rush books out, they just don't. But I'm, I'm usually one book ahead. So I've already finished my next book. It, it's going into editing now, but like I'm, I'm in a, I'm in editing of, of the next book.

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  So how many hours a day, how much time a day do you spend writing? And is it every day?

• 1:09:53Ryan Holiday?

  It's almost every day. It's, I'll, I'll definitely write on the weekend, but it's a different routine. Cause like weekends are more for family. So I might like do a, like, Usually what will happen is like, I'll, I'll be working out and I'll have some idea and that'll be like a daily stoic email or something like that. But not, not usually not working on a book on the weekends. But like I, I try to like sit down at my desk to write usually like eight thirty or nine. And I'll, I'll be done by like eleven at the latest. So it's usually like two, two and a half hours. And then just that cumulatively over a long period of time adds up to books.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  That's cool. I feel like I need to integrate that. I feel like I need to like have a, a routine with, with writing music. As opposed to like when I, when I feel inspired.

• 1:10:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I, I think so. So read this book, The War of Art. His, it's like, I think it's the, the best, the best book about the creative process ever written. But his, his point is like, you, you have to put, he's like, you have to put your ass where you want your heart to be. Which is an expression I love. And it's like, if you, he, he has this idea of the resistance. Basically, it's like, we all want to make great art all the time, but then the resistance gets in the way. And so if you only write when you're inspired, I think you're in a, you're in a tricky spot because like your mind can always come up with reasons why you're not inspired. So I, I love the routine, but then, and then it's also, I think, writing books is like,

• 1:11:21Ryan Holiday?

  you have to get, you probably like this where like when you're writing, you're in a different headspace. It's like training for a fight or something, you know, or like training to go into space. And I had this dream that I was like, you know, it's like ready for a launch, like the countdown, you're, you're putting on the suit, you're going to the rocket, you're strapping in. And then it blasts off. And when I woke up from the dream, it, I realized that the book that I'd been putting off starting, I had to start. Like I'd done all the research, I just hadn't started writing. And so I've, I've more gotten to a place where instead of having this like start and stop where it's like, I'm training and then, you know, then I'm taking a break. I'd rather just be in, in fighting at, at my fighting weight all the time. So just never stop.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's so smart. I love that. I'm definitely integrating that. That's cool.

• 1:12:10Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I'll let you go because this has probably been way too much of your time, but we should, we should talk routine. To me, I think if you don't have a routine or a practice, you're just getting by on like your sheer talent and and like your youthful energy. But when you really look, it's like, how is LeBron James still performing at the level he's performing at? It's because it's a machine and he's just riding it, you know?

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Wait, what's that quote that's like consistency over excitement or something like that? Consistency over? But yeah, no, that's, it's, it's, yeah, totally. I totally agree. I totally agree. Well, this was so fun.

• 1:12:50Ryan Holiday?

  This was amazing. I appreciate it so much. I'm so glad we got connected and and yeah, we'll have to stay in touch.

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  Me too. Let's be friends.

• 1:12:59Ryan Holiday?

  Let's be friends. Let's do it.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  Ryan, you're amazing. And you seriously, I mean, I told you the other day, my mom, Sean, me, were your biggest fans and you've changed our lives. Stoics forever, baby.

• 1:13:13Ryan Holiday?

  I love it.

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  I get the email. I get the journal. I get the Daily Stoic, the daily, that's part of my morning routine is reading one page a day.

• 1:13:22Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, man.

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  The leather, the black leather one. So, thank you for everything. Seriously.

• 1:13:26Ryan Holiday?

  You're the best. That's amazing to hear. And it's, I think what's, what's interesting for me is, yeah, like I've listened to your songs a bunch of times and you're, it's, it's just weird to, to put a face to the work.

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  Well, likewise, because like Sean told you the other day, we've, we've heard your voice on the audiobook so much and now your, your face is moving.

• 1:13:47Ryan Holiday?

  I love it.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  It's exciting.

• 1:13:48Ryan Holiday?

  All right. Talk soon.

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  Okay. Talk soon, Ryan. Bye.

• 1:13:52Ryan Holiday?

  All right. Bye.

• 1:13:54Speaker 02

  Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app. And if you don't get the Daily Stoic email, go to dailystoic.com/email.