Finance Expert: How You Talk About Money Matters Ft. Vivian Tu

Money might be one of the hardest conversations we avoid having. In this episode, I sit down with money expert Vivian Tu to talk about why money feels so uncomfortable, how the way we grew up shapes our financial habits, and how to have better conversations about money with your partner, your kids, and even your boss. Vivian also shares when to bring up money while dating, who should pay on the first date, and how to ask for the raise you deserve. Check out Ask Dolly here! https://askdolly.com/JF Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Tiny Health: Go to https://tinyhealth.com/jefferson for $50 off your first at-home test kit. Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends. Like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an ultra because it's not just a superior like beer. It's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 0:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Is there a difference in how the top talk about money versus how the bottom talk about money?

• 0:34Speaker 02

  People who are the bottom will say, we can't afford that. People at the top will say, it's not currently in the budget. It's the exact same thing. And unfortunately, for a very long time, we have equated your value as a human being with your net worth. So when you have debt, we consider it a moral failure. We think you're a bad person. So I get this job at JP Morgan. I was very literally only sitting next to rich people. And I hate to say it, they're doing it better than us. Because when they talk about money, they have more to compare. They're trading secrets.

• 1:01Jefferson Fisher?

  At what point in a dating relationship should you bring up money?

• 1:03Speaker 02

  Soon as possible, baby.

• 1:05Jefferson Fisher?

  It's like first date?

• 1:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Easing into the money conversation is always the best way to do it.

• 1:09Jefferson Fisher?

  How do you ease into it?

• 1:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, you and I are on a dinner date and I say, if a million dollars dropped into your lap, what would you do? Would you still be an attorney?

• 1:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 1:16Speaker 02

  That tells me you likely aren't motivated by the money you're making as an attorney and that you actually really enjoy your job.

• 1:22Jefferson Fisher?

  I've seen a lot of things in the news about good, hardworking employees being laid off. At this point in time, should we be asking for raises or should we just be thankful that we have jobs?

• 1:32Speaker 02

  Loyalty to your company, ****. Let me be very clear.

• 1:37Jefferson Fisher?

  Why is it that talking about money seems to be harder than talking about everything else?

• 1:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:45Speaker 02

  Because we've been conditioned that way, right? So here's the story. We're sitting around the family table. Little Johnny goes, Mom, Dad, like, how much is our house worth? You're like, Johnny, please don't ask that. That's so rude. Okay. Flash forward a couple of years. Little Johnny's like, hey, Dad, how much do you make? The kids at school were talking about how much their dads make. And Dad's like, little Johnny, don't ask that. That's so rude. Okay. Then suddenly, little Johnny's 18, signs a six-figure student loan contract. Little Johnny is now 21, needs a credit score to rent his first apartment,

• 2:27Speaker 02

  doesn't know how to fill out his tax return at the end of the year or in April. Little Johnny has no idea how to negotiate for his salary at his job. Little Johnny has no idea how to budget. Little Johnny has no idea that he should be saving. Doesn't really understand how a credit card works, but they'll give him one. They'll give him one for sure. And little Johnny's not investing because he's never even heard his parents talking about investing. If we talked about money the same way we talk about literally anything else at the dinner table,

• 2:59Speaker 02

  we would be able to talk about money. Think about it. Your parents talked about their political affiliations, which is typically a taboo topic at the dinner table. I remember because kids were coming to school and parroting what their parents were saying.

• 3:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Sure.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  Your parents talk about pop culture. Like I have 1,000% sat down and talked to my mom and dad about movies coming out or music that I'm listening to, things like that. Great.

• 3:20Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  You've talked about sports. You've talked about religion. Like my husband grew up in a Catholic family. He went to a Catholic high school. They talked about religion, certainly. And, you know, we talk about all of these quote unquote hot button taboo topics. Think of the last time your parents sat down and said, hey, we need to talk about how much you're probably going to inherit.

• 3:44Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  Never.

• 3:46Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 3:47Speaker 02

  Isn't that crazy?

• 3:48Jefferson Fisher?

  It is crazy. I definitely agree with it. There's some aspect of it that is conditioned because it is the one thing we don't talk about. Truly, Vivian, I mean, I've never really talked to my own parents.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:00Jefferson Fisher?

  About, you know, what they make and my whole life. It just wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't a thing. And I don't know also if it's a cultural thing. I don't know if it's the same in the US as it as, or even within, let's say, northern states, southern states, west coast, east coast or in different cultures. But I do feel like absolutely correct that there's a part of it that's conditioned. And then I also am very curious over why is it that even within like dating?

• 4:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Relationships, friendships.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:32Jefferson Fisher?

  It becomes a very awkward, hesitant part of the discussion.

• 4:39Speaker 02

  I think in part one, because of how media has made us think about money.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  For a very long time, we have equated your value as a human being with your net worth. Think about it, you're going to a cocktail party. I meet you for the first time. What's the first question out of our mouths? So what do you do?

• 4:59Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 5:00Speaker 02

  Like, why does the first question that I ask you as a stranger have anything to do with what you do for a job? Like, why am I not like, hey, what's your favorite hobby?

• 5:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  Like, hey, like, what is, what is your favorite restaurant to try around here? That's never the first question. It's, so what do you do? And the fact that the answer to, so what do you do is your job says a lot about what we're trying to signal. Because when you are a high-powered attorney, that's, that's a social status symbol.

• 5:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  That's a, that's a good job. That's a fancy job.

• 5:32Jefferson Fisher?

  It's, yeah.

• 5:33Speaker 02

  In some sectors.

• 5:34Jefferson Fisher?

  For sure. And it quickly gets into a stereotype and like, oh, okay.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:37Jefferson Fisher?

  And.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  Like you're a lawyer, so my assumption is you're smarter than the average person.

• 5:41Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  My assumption is you make more money than the average person. My assumption is you live a certain type of lifestyle, right? You're responsible, you're dependable. Good job. Whereas we have now made it so that like your amount of money in your bank account is a representation of you as a moral win or a moral failure. So when you have debt, we consider it a moral failure. We think you're a bad person. Oh, like you're a bad mom. You had to put those groceries on a credit card and you couldn't afford them.

• 6:12Jefferson Fisher?

  Or if the mom's working.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  Or if the mom's working. There's so much perspective around money because it is an indicator of so many other behavioral characteristics, even though that may not necessarily be true. And it certainly leads to a lot of bias. What I will say is that we are getting better. You're seeing young people now on social media saying things like, I can't believe my rent costs this much. Or, so I was on this date and this guy made me split the, like, we're talking about money in a way that was not seen decades ago, a couple of decades ago. Even in our generation, I would say. Gen Alpha is much more comfortable talking about money than Gen Z, millennials, Gen X and boomers.

• 6:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Gen Alpha?

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Gen Alpha is like, they're fresh. They're really fresh. They're like 15 right now.

• 7:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Fresh eggs.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Got it.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  And so I think we're moving in a better direction, but we have been conditioned by the media to think that the amount of money we have is a representation of us as a person. And we are always worried of being judged by other people based on the number we say.

• 7:23Jefferson Fisher?

  I think it's, I think media is an element of it. But I think you could certainly be somebody who never watched TV in your life.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Never watched social media in your life. And even if I'm going to talk about, you know, money to my grandparents or dating or you're married for five years and you're still talking about money problems. There's something about talking about money that seems to be very,

• 7:55Jefferson Fisher?

  it can be a catalyst and also create ruptures.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:00Jefferson Fisher?

  I hear lots of people who have very difficult conversations or they become estranged with siblings or parents. And a lot of that is because of.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Money.

• 8:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Money.

• 8:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:11Jefferson Fisher?

  And I don't, I think conditioning is one element. I certainly think, and we, we talk about media.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  I do think it is cultural, by the way.

• 8:19Jefferson Fisher?

  I, I agree. And I think, I think that, that stems from some of it. And I do agree with you that it comes from a deeply rooted sense of comparison. Of where am I?

• 8:32Speaker 02

  Never feeling like you have enough.

• 8:33Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. Where am I in the hierarchy? I either never get enough of it. And whether it brings you happiness, doesn't bring you happiness and with success and all that stuff.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  I think the folks at the bottom or the folks who don't feel like they have enough, it's an insecurity.

• 8:48Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  And then the folks at the top are afraid of being judged, being told that they're tone deaf or out of touch or frankly, that, you know, very real life cases, that people are going to burgle them. Is burgle the verb?

• 9:02Jefferson Fisher?

  I don't know, but let's make it.

• 9:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Somebody's going to come to their house and steal what they have and take what they have. And so I think there's a level of not talking about money as a defense.

• 9:11Jefferson Fisher?

  I never even thought about that. I think that's a great point because we, I'm from a very, very small town. I'm talking like, we were so pumped when we got a Waffle House. And that was, that was last year.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 9:24Jefferson Fisher?

  We had a Walmart and a Chili's.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  That triple dipper is getting you right now.

• 9:28Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm telling you, yeah, all the time. And chicken christers, get with me. So the, so, but we were, my wife and I were talking about getting a new vehicle. We had a used car. It was on its last leg and we're talking about what we were going to get. And so much of the discussion was not the, it certainly wasn't going to be reliable, safe. It was, are we going to get a vehicle that everybody's going to go, oh.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:57Jefferson Fisher?

  They got, they must have money. Or, you know, it's like, if, if we were in that town and we, you buy a Mercedes or drive a Mercedes.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  I'm smashing your windows.

• 10:07Jefferson Fisher?

  Every, well, it's not, it's, that's, maybe that's a New York way. I don't know. It's, it's very much a judgment of you think you're better than everybody else. You think you're better than me. If you have any kind of foreign car, if you buy it off the lot, there's something about the perception that, of course, there's nothing to do with us, but there are vehicles we did not buy, brands we did not buy, purely because it was like, ah, no, that was, that would just call attention. Also, we were in a community where you knew everybody by their car. So you could, you could see them from like, oh, I see Henry or whatever. I don't know Henry, but that, you know what his cars look like. And so I think that's exactly right. You have that kind of struggle. You think that's something that's always happened? That's always been there?

• 10:52Jefferson Fisher?

  Or is it more popular now than ever?

• 10:55Speaker 02

  I think it's gotten worse in terms of like that insecurity and that comparison game. Because, and by the way, this is like statistically shown and proven. You've probably heard the term, the K-shaped economy, which is just a fancy way of saying the rich got richer and the poor got poorer.

• 11:14Speaker 02

  I would say probably about 50 years ago, there was a much more robust middle class. And because of that.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Things didn't feel that like comparison-y because you could only compare to the people you could see. And so, you know, your parents are looking out their front window and they're like, ooh, the Davis has got a new flat screen TV. It's like, I see the box and the recycling. But they couldn't see into the super fancy, you know, Beverly Hills gated neighborhood. Cause they weren't in that tax bracket and they didn't live there. Now, I can get into Kim K's private plane on my phone. I should have no idea what the inside of a private jet looks like. I'm not in that tax bracket. Like, I have no business knowing what the private islands look like.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  I have no business knowing what, you know, the people taking their PJs into Davos are doing. But I can. And now, there's a phrase, like, why did you show it to me if I couldn't have it? People want it. And so, it's really the, the game of a measuring contest of like, what do you have? What don't I have? What do I need to get to get there? And like, is my life better than yours? Cause it's not just, is my life better than yours? But it's like, can you see that my life is better than yours? It's a showing off of it.

• 12:40Jefferson Fisher?

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• 13:25Jefferson Fisher?

  Right now, you can go to tinyhealth.com/jefferson, use the go Jefferson for $50 off your first at-home test. That's tinyhealth.com/jefferson, use the go Jefferson for $50 off. Now, let's keep going. Is there a difference in how the top talk about money versus how the bottom talk about money?

• 13:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100%. The top loves talking about money. You ever been to a golf course that's like really, really private?

• 13:49Jefferson Fisher?

  I haven't. I've, I've felt awkward.

• 13:52Speaker 02

  Out of water.

• 13:53Jefferson Fisher?

  I felt so awkward.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's so funny because I never had this experience until I actually started my job where I was a trader at JP Morgan. And I sat shoulder to shoulder and I was the youngest person on the desk, definitely the brokest. And to hear the way people were talking about money of deploying capital or we're going to go out east. East of what? Where are we going?

• 14:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Just a totally different lingo.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  I was like, I feel like I need a, you know, Merriam-Webster for what you guys are saying, because I literally didn't understand. And it is very much a rules for thee, but not for me. Rich people talk about money all the time. They love talking about money. People are talking about their personal portfolios.

• 14:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Cause they have it.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  They have it. There was no sense of like, your house is bigger than mine, because we all had big houses. They all had big houses. I had a 650 square foot apartment, so I had no idea what was going on. But to hear them have that conversation, I was like, oh, so it is okay to do these things. And I think a lot of my comfort now stems from the fact that I was very much an outsider. Came from only child to two immigrant parents. Went to the University of Chicago where I was suddenly exposed to a lot of incredibly wealthy international students, a lot of incredibly wealthy legacy students. And then put into a job where I was very literally only sitting next to rich people. And I got a peek behind the curtain.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  And I hate to say it, they're doing it better than us. They're doing it better than the regular people. Because when they talk about money, they have more to compare. And they're trading secrets. They're saying, oh, I had a really good mortgage broker. Get me the best, lowest possible rate. You should use my broker. I scratch your back. Oh, you belong to that one country club that I haven't been able to get an in at? You're going to be my sponsor there. Now, we've scratched each other's backs. Then it's, people would go to this, they would all go to one guy's dentist. They all shared one dentist. They all shared one. It was crazy, the amount of information that was happening.

• 16:02Jefferson Fisher?

  For sure. I feel like I know a good group of what I would call finance bros. They all wear the sweater vest, you know?

• 16:10Speaker 02

  My husband has one.

• 16:11Jefferson Fisher?

  And so it's like, it's a, it's a uniform and they all have like their whole thing. And there's plenty of memes and videos on which are, I think, all very accurate. They all have their own different lingo, which everybody's looking for their community. And that's, that's how they found theirs. I'm really curious more on, how do they talk about money? How does, how do the top talk about money versus how the bottom talks about money? In other words, their relationship to it? Maybe is, are there different words that they use?

• 16:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. Everything at the top gets a PR spin in the same way that, you know, what is it? Lamb is mutton, you know? Beef is cows or whatever. It's very much, poor people have debt, rich people use leverage.

• 17:02Jefferson Fisher?

  No, so it's like, poor people will call it debt.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, rich people have leverage.

• 17:06Jefferson Fisher?

  They call it leverage.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. I have leverage. That's why I was able to purchase that home. Poor people, you have, you took out a loan, you have debt. We talk about money, it's like, oh, I have cash, I have dry powder, I have capital, I have something to use, it's a tool. And it's, it seems like the real stark differentiation, for me at least, is the amount of abundance rich people talk about money with. It always seems like there's more coming. It always, it never feels like that faucet's going to turn off. Whereas people who are not at the top, it feels very scarce. It's always something that's running out. It's something that you have to hold so close to your chest, something you have to grip onto and hold on to forever.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  And it changes how we discuss. So, people who are at the bottom will say, we can't afford that. People at the top will say, it's not currently in the budget. It's the exact same thing, by the way. Because even rich people can't afford certain things, but they would never tell you that. It's not currently in my budget.

• 18:15Jefferson Fisher?

  And I'm thinking of the, the single mom who has three kids hanging on to her grocery cart while she's pushing it. And it's, she just got off work and the kids bring her a candy or toys. You know, we can't, we can't afford it, we can't afford it. And that is, what a difference of if, I talk a lot about how the power in your words and the word choice makes such a big difference. And I think how we talk about money in this exact way and that difference is, has such an implication on the mindset of, of, and I, I talked to, you know, I'm not going to say anything because my, my father's an attorney. I can't, I can't put that in a position of, you know, my best friend, whose dad was

• 19:00Jefferson Fisher?

  a manager at Dollar General. And of the, how the conversation, you know, went with that. But the, the different mindset of what gets passed down, I think is generational of if you find like, how friends of mine have a scarcity mindset where there's never enough, even though I know that they're

• 19:23Speaker 02

  Doing fine.

• 19:24Jefferson Fisher?

  That they're doing great. But yet, they still feel like any day could be the, the last day.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. I struggled with that for quite some time.

• 19:33Jefferson Fisher?

  Tell me.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Because my family came here as immigrants. I feel very lucky I was born in this country. But things were hard for my parents when I was younger.

• 19:46Jefferson Fisher?

  What country?

• 19:48Speaker 02

  China.

• 19:49Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. How, how was their, how's their thinking of money different from how you are now?

• 19:55Speaker 02

  Well, it took me a while to kind of unlearn some of those bad habits. Like, I heard the phrase, we can't afford that all the time. From everything to, you know, candy in the grocery store that my mom probably just didn't want me eating, all the way to toys, all the way to jeans that I wanted as a pre-teen with the rips in them. But, you know, I think one of the most memorable experiences was, I was a pre-teen. I went to the mall with my, you know, best friend at the time, my childhood best friend. And we went and we bought these jeans from Abercrombie & Fitch. Came home, by the way, these were the cool girl jeans.

• 20:29Jefferson Fisher?

  You just gave me so many memories just by saying that name.

• 20:31Speaker 02

  Like, first off, like, the, the smell of that perfume is like burned into my mind. And then the like naked men on the bags. Yeah. So you come home and my mom found the jeans and the receipt in the bag. And she saw how much I had spent on these jeans and she blew me up. She was like, who do you think you are spending this much money? Like, you don't understand the value of a dollar. And I, as a young person, the only thing I could think to say was, well, she got a pair too. And my mom, she looked so defeated and she said, well, her dad's a lawyer and your parents aren't millionaires. And I am angsty, pre-teen teen.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  I run up to my room, slam the door, and I am in tears. And I'm so sad because my mom just told me I was not deserving of those jeans because of a circumstance beyond my control. And I made a promise to myself that day. I was like, no one is ever going to deny me ripped jeans ever again. And I was like, I'm going to be rich. I don't care what it takes. And that manifested in a hunger in school, because I knew, my parents had always told me that like, in this country, your education is like kind of the one ticket to socioeconomic mobility. And that's what I was told. So, I was the valedictorian in my high school class. I go to a school like U Chicago.

• 22:00Speaker 02

  I think I'm on the up and up. I get good grades, I graduate with honors, I get this job at JP Morgan. I'm there, Jefferson. I am now about to be rich. I am so stoked.

• 22:14Speaker 02

  But what I found was that when you're a first year analyst on Wall Street, you're really excited. It's a name brand place to work, but you don't actually make that much money. And you're working like 80 hours a week.

• 22:27Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  And it still never felt like enough. And I felt like I was this rabbit chasing a carrot. And I was like, when am I ever going to get there?

• 22:37Jefferson Fisher?

  And you find like, it's all that comparison. I can tell you for me, one, I was giggling. I haven't giggled in a while. I haven't even used that word in a while.

• 22:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Because my mom would refuse to buy Immaculate Beauty and Hollister, which were-

• 22:54Speaker 02

  Because they were ripped.

• 22:55Jefferson Fisher?

  One, yes, because she was like, why would I buy stuff that has holes in it?

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:59Jefferson Fisher?

  Second of all, she was like, those prices are insane.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:02Jefferson Fisher?

  And so I'm not ashamed to say the two pieces of, I had a, or was it Ari Postle too?

• 23:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 23:09Jefferson Fisher?

  I had an Ari Postle shirt and a Hollister shirt. I never did Immaculate Beauty. We got them from Goodwill.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 23:14Jefferson Fisher?

  That's where we got them. And I can remember the cologne in like the rave, like-

• 23:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's so dark in that store.

• 23:24Jefferson Fisher?

  It was so dark and it was like, I was like, I don't even know what color it is, but I would go with my friends who did buy the stuff. And what was kind of unique was the ones who did buy it, their parents weren't wealthy, but that's what they like put the-

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Money towards.

• 23:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Money towards. And that might've been something, you know, without me noticing at the time. But I did, for me, even though people say, oh, well, his dad was an attorney. There's a lot of attorneys that are barely making ends meet because just that way, when you become an attorney and start out as an associate, you really don't make that much. And there's still lots of lawyers who are having to like practice right by the courthouse because they're struggling to, to, to get work. But I was, I think that's the reason why my point is Vivian, that I'm the spender.

• 24:17Speaker 02

  You are.

• 24:18Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm definitely the spender because I think ingrained in me was this misconception of I was not worth spending the money on.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:33Jefferson Fisher?

  And so I take a lot of value of when I buy something.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Like, I don't, I don't want to buy like off brain cereal, you know, like I want to buy the on brand. You know, are people who say like, you need to buy the Tylenol versus the knockoff.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, acetaminophen.

• 24:50Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. And so I, I think I'm like that. And so you saying all that brought a lot of like, I think there's a lot of how we spend and talk about money now is so much tied to how our parents,

• 25:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:06Jefferson Fisher?

  how we heard our parents talk about-

• 25:08Speaker 02

  But also the scar tissue of like what you learned about money growing up because, you know, they say it's so much harder to learn a language after the age of seven. You also learn a lot of your money habits before the age of seven.

• 25:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Language of money, yeah.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. The language of money. Yeah, exactly.

• 25:23Jefferson Fisher?

  I want to switch gears and talk about romantic relationships or dating or anything else. So at what point in a dating relationship should you bring up money?

• 25:34Speaker 02

  Soon as possible, baby.

• 25:35Jefferson Fisher?

  It's like first date?

• 25:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. Why not?

• 25:37Jefferson Fisher?

  So this is like, show them how much you-

• 25:39Speaker 02

  No, no, no, don't be a weirdo.

• 25:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 25:41Jefferson Fisher?

  What do you want to eat? You want to do this? You're paying for this, right?

• 25:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, no.

• 25:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Like, what do you, what do you do?

• 25:48Speaker 02

  What I like to say is that like easing into the money conversation is always the best way to do it. Like, you're not showing up to date one being like, show me your pay stub, like truly-

• 25:56Jefferson Fisher?

  How do you ease into it?

• 25:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay. You and I are on a dinner date and I say, oh, okay. If a million dollars dropped into your lap tomorrow, what would you do? Would you still be an attorney?

• 26:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  But see, that teaches me something about you, right? It tells me that you likely aren't motivated by the money you're making as an attorney and that you actually really enjoy your job.

• 26:22Jefferson Fisher?

  I love how that's you talking about money without talking about money, like your money.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  Okay, you want another fun one?

• 26:28Jefferson Fisher?

  It's a little, let's go.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  Okay. If I gave you a hundred thousand dollars tomorrow to plan a perfect two week vacation, what would you do?

• 26:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Hire a travel agent.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  No, but like, what would you want to go do? Like, what is the thing that the travel agent will plan?

• 26:46Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, okay, good. I was like, I'd have them plan it because it sounds like too much. I don't know what you'd spend even that on. That's a great one, though.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  Right? Because somebody's going to say, I'm going to go backpack through, you know, Nepal, and then I'm going to climb Everest. Climbing Everest is very expensive, by the way.

• 27:03Jefferson Fisher?

  Is it really?

• 27:04Speaker 02

  My, yes. My lash tech actually did it. And he has this sick photo of him at the top of Everest. But like, it's an incredibly expensive endeavor because you have to buy all the gear, you have to hire the shepherds, you have to do all of this like training.

• 27:17Jefferson Fisher?

  That stuff scares me.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  Super scary. Not in a million years.

• 27:20Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, no.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  I don't like to go on vacation to places that are less comfortable than my own home.

• 27:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, preach.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  Like, I'm not sleeping in a tent. I don't want to have to like, you know, hike.

• 27:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Backpack, I could do like a hunting backpack, a backpacking trip.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  I don't want to have to wear a backpack.

• 27:34Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, that's fair.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  Right? Like, I'm trying to be horizontal. There definitely needs to be sand.

• 27:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Mummy though.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, full time, full time. Like daiquiri in hand, full mummy, there's water.

• 27:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Like, if I'm going skiing, I'm good for like half a day at a time and then put me-

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Put me in the apre portion of the day.

• 27:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah. Give me next to a fire with some cocoa and I'm happy.

• 27:54Speaker 02

  But imagine we're on the date and you're saying, hey, my perfect dream is to, you know, climb Machu Picchu or go to Machu Picchu. And mine is like, oh, really? Like, I'm just trying to like rot.

• 28:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, I'm with you.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  Are we aligned? Like, you want to go hiking, you want to climb Kilimanjaro, you want to do all of this fun, outdoorsy exercise stuff, you want to skydive out of a plane, you want to horseback ride. Okay, crazy?

• 28:25Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  I'm trying to relax. I'm not trying to do anything that could possibly get me killed. I don't want to sign a waiver on vacation. That tells me that our values or our hobbies or our lifestyles may not be the best match for each other.

• 28:40Jefferson Fisher?

  For sure tells you the intrinsic motivation between it. Or it's, you know, maybe it's, first off, if you gave me a hundred, two hundred thousand dollars, I'm paying off my student debt. I'm paying off my parents' house. I am-

• 28:51Speaker 02

  That's another question you can say. If I gave you a hundred thousand dollars tomorrow, you can't just put it in a bank account, what would you do with it?

• 28:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Hmm, I love that.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  I'm trying to hear someone say, I'm paying off my student loans. I'm making sure that I am, you know, investing. I am going to treat myself to something nice and maybe I'd consider a down payment on a home.

• 29:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 29:10Speaker 02

  If someone says immediately, like, you know-

• 29:13Jefferson Fisher?

  Buy a car.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  Lambo.

• 29:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  Huge red flag. I don't want that at all.

• 29:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, but imagine the person you're, you know, on that date with goes, you know, I'd set, I set up college funds for my nieces and nephews.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  I'd be like, when can you get married?

• 29:25Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'd be like, perfect.

• 29:27Jefferson Fisher?

  Right. You want to schedule what date? Can you get married again? When is it?

• 29:30Speaker 02

  When you're scheduled free up, like, we can go sign the licenses now.

• 29:33Jefferson Fisher?

  Right, exactly.

• 29:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:34Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay, so that's, that's how we ease into conversation is I think there's a beautiful ways of talking about money without talking about-

• 29:42Speaker 02

  Money.

• 29:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Money. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Cozy Earth. I love Cozy Earth. Why? Because everything they make is premium. It's high quality product. Most recently, what I have enjoyed from Cozy Earth are their bed sheets. Didn't think I'd be saying that. But you know what? There comes a time when you travel a lot, you go, I miss my bed and I want my bed sheets. Right now, Cozy Earth has these really nice, cool bamboo sheets that just feel like everything is wonderful when you lay down. I'm somebody, I run hot at night and they help cool me off so much. They've been on our bed. Of course, we have multiple, so we change them out. But they've made a huge difference and certainly made it to where I look forward to my bed

• 30:26Jefferson Fisher?

  whenever I am not sleeping in it. So right now, you can go to cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code Jefferson for up to 20% off. If you enjoy cool, nice sheets that feel awesome and cozy on your bed, go to cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code Jefferson for 20% off. And now, let's keep going. At what point in time do you say, okay, I kind of see a future with this person?

• 30:49Jefferson Fisher?

  We need to now escalate the seriousness

• 30:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:54Jefferson Fisher?

  of the conversation about what are we, what are we doing? Who's bringing what?

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I would say this happens when you have decided that you are going to go on multiple dates with this person and you really only want to see this person. Like we are like, you're not in the dating phase of like dating all the different fish.

• 31:11Jefferson Fisher?

  This is my person.

• 31:11Speaker 02

  You've chosen your fish. Um, you don't have to necessarily have fully defined the relationship yet. But like, even if like you are going on multiple dates together. When I was chatting with my husband about this, we were, he's a year and a half older than me. So I, and he worked in finance when we first started dating, as did I. So he knew roughly what I was making and I knew roughly what he was making because those were kind of consistent at the different banks at that time. And so I was like, hmm, well, we've now been on four dates and he's paid for all of them. Like, I actually care about this person. I don't want to put them out. So I asked him, I was like, hey, you've like paid for the last four dates. Like, you know, I, you're, you're a banker, you're doing great.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  But like, should we talk about like how we should split dinners and stuff going forward? And he was like, wow, that's like really thoughtful that you brought that up and even like cared to ask. I think it's about like seeing the load that is being held by any one person in a partnership, in a relationship. And what we decided was that he was still making more than me, so he was going to pay for dinner more. But like, I would be picking up a certain number of our meals together.

• 32:27Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  Ultimately, that became an even bigger conversation because do not do this. Um, irresponsibly, I decided to go on vacation with a strange man that I had met, you know, probably 45 days prior. Ended up working out for me, but um, you know, I could have been taken, but he was fine. He wasn't a killer.

• 32:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, got it.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  This is my husband.

• 32:46Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, got it.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  So it worked out great for me. But when we were planning this vacation, the costs got real, right? It's no longer a $150 dinner. It's, you're spending thousands of dollars for flights, hotels, activities, meals in, you know, wherever you're traveling. Um, we took our first trip together and we were like, okay, like, how are we going to split this? And it has always been such a good conversation because we had our hard money conversations earlier. Um, 30 days into our relationship, I had to straight up be like, this is how much I make. This is what's going on because I had moved into an apartment with a cockroach infestation.

• 33:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Bleh.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  Bleh, I know, yuck. But I started sleeping at his place and would just have like an overnight bag. I wanted to be in that apartment for negative four seconds every time, just to swap out my wardrobe or walk with clean clothes. And I had to sit him down and I was like, hey, just so you know, my base salary is $80,000. My bonus last year was, I can't remember what it was at the time, probably like 15 grand. I don't have the money to be paying rent on this place, on an apartment that like my property manager is not trying to let me out of. Like, I don't have money to give you for staying at your apartment. And he was like, I never expected you to chip in on rent here.

• 34:09Jefferson Fisher?

  But you're bringing it up.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  Me, I brought, but I brought it up and I had to tell him what I was making because I was so embarrassed. And I was so ashamed that like, one, I had moved into this disgusting roach hotel. But two, that I couldn't afford it. But at that moment, he saw that and he was like, okay, well, don't worry about it. Just so you know, I make this much. I actually just got a really big bonus. I was top bucket, AKA the top performer in his team. So I got it like that.

• 34:36Jefferson Fisher?

  I was go.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  And because we knew that, we were so able, like, we were so easily able to budget for that vacation, for dinners going forward. And I think a couple of months after that, we moved in together.

• 34:52Jefferson Fisher?

  Let's say for the average

• 34:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:56Jefferson Fisher?

  Uh, people.

• 34:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Community, norm, uh, the, on average, that's a good way to put it. You're dating and you're on the dating scene.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:08Jefferson Fisher?

  And do you, uh, well, I think I know what you would say. If you're, if you're on a date.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:19Jefferson Fisher?

  At what point do you talk about how we're handling the bill?

• 35:24Speaker 02

  Well, I just think whoever invites should pay.

• 35:26Jefferson Fisher?

  I like that rule. If you set it up, if you set the dinner up. Well, what if you're the only one who sets up the dinners? I guess you're the one who's going to be paying.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  What do you mean?

• 35:35Jefferson Fisher?

  Like, if you're the one that's like, okay, let's put it this way. And um, at least the way I was raised.

• 35:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:44Jefferson Fisher?

  The guy.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:46Jefferson Fisher?

  Is to be chivalrous.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:48Jefferson Fisher?

  And if he wants to date somebody and go study with somebody, you say, I would like to go on a date with you. And let's go have a dinner.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:55Jefferson Fisher?

  And so you're the one that's going to be paying.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Picking up the tab.

• 35:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Which has zero problem. I also know people that are like, oh no, there should be a discussion of, no, I'll, I'll do my half. You do your half, uh, because it's, the guy always doesn't have to pay or whatever. And I was raised very much the guy, which I agree with, the, the guy's pays.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  I don't think the guy has to pay, but I'm just going to say, I've never gone on a second date with someone who made me pay for half the first date.

• 36:27Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Like, like, no one's holding the gun to your head, but if you're trying to see me again, show a little investment.

• 36:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Because you know what it is? It is so much of a bigger investment for a woman to be in a relationship or even to date.

• 36:46Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 36:47Speaker 02

  Than it is for a man. First off, like, let's, let's be really shallow for a second. She had to look nice for the date. She probably spent more money than you spent to get to that date.

• 36:57Jefferson Fisher?

  More time.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  More time, certainly.

• 36:59Jefferson Fisher?

  Absolutely.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  But also, if you actually think of what you're trying to get at, and I always say like, you better be dating to find your person. Otherwise you're getting, you're dating to get your heart broken. Like, if you are planning on hopefully getting married to this person, maybe starting a family with this person, like building a life with this person, there is very literally something called the fatherhood premium and the motherhood penalty. So in a workplace, there's four people, they're all identical in terms of success, in terms of smarts, in terms of level. There's a man with a family, man who's married with a family, single man, single woman, and woman with a family.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  They will be paid in that order, in terms of highest to lowest. Because when you have a family, you are a stand-up guy. You have good values, you can be trusted, and you got something that a single guy doesn't. But when a woman has a family, she's got a burden, she's got 4:00 PM pickup from daycare, she's got extra mental load to carry at home, she's probably not as committed to her job. So men get a benefit for dating and women actually get a penalty.

• 38:15Jefferson Fisher?

  How interesting.

• 38:15Speaker 02

  And so if you and I are on a first date and I know all of this, yeah, it would be nice if you picked it up.

• 38:22Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. That's a given every time.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Do you think there is a, a place where, I know couples that are married and still split finances?

• 38:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:33Jefferson Fisher?

  Even though they're married?

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:35Jefferson Fisher?

  Do you see advantages or disadvantages to that? Or is it just like, you go, ah, you know what, to each their own?

• 38:40Speaker 02

  Um, I think it's a to each their own, but what I encourage everybody listening to this to do is still make sure you have your own money. I do not care how much you are in love with your spouse. I do not care how good they are to you, how rich they are, I don't care. You need to have your own money, your own bank account, that they are not a joint account holder on, that is only yours and you need to have it because 99% of domestic violence cases include financial abuse. And unfortunately, for many, in the majority of women, if you can't afford to leave, you don't.

• 39:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 39:20Speaker 02

  And so I'll be honest, my husband and I use a yours, mine and ours system. So we each have our own money and that we can use to really, you know, be spending on things. Like, he wants to go play a round of golf with his friends, great, go do that. Like, I'm not watching your pockets.

• 39:37Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, for me, it's a Yeti cooler. That's pretty much what I'm.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  Another Yeti cooler?

• 39:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, I, I can't have enough, it's bad.

• 39:42Speaker 02

  What are you cooling?

• 39:43Jefferson Fisher?

  I don't know, I really, most of the time, nothing. I think, I think I just like them.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  Like, you have a fridge.

• 39:48Jefferson Fisher?

  I do, but no, I can't take the fridge with me. And I think I, this, if I did, it would, I would want another one.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  Oh, okay, okay.

• 39:55Jefferson Fisher?

  You have to have ones of different sizes, maybe. It's a whole thing. Anyway, go ahead, it's a process.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  And for me, if I want to go and buy a beautiful dress or I want to go get, you know, my nails done, like, I want to be able to do that. I work very hard, I make my money. You can't tell me not to do that. But we also have an ours account, which pays for a lot of our joint expenses. So housing, utilities, like any sort of um, big thing. So like, our wedding was our joint account paid for that. Um, like, we share those expenses because we benefit from them equally. And we don't necessarily have to put the same amount of money into that joint account. But it is our, our money.

• 40:33Jefferson Fisher?

  So I want, I want you to speak to, it makes me think of women.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Who I know, who the, their husband makes all of the income.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 40:44Jefferson Fisher?

  And makes all of the money decisions.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  I hate that.

• 40:47Jefferson Fisher?

  There are these, but that's the reality.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:50Jefferson Fisher?

  And they don't want, they, if, if they were to buy anything that would be considered semi-expensive, they have to go get permission. Okay?

• 40:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:57Jefferson Fisher?

  That's a reality.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it is.

• 41:00Jefferson Fisher?

  And how do you speak to those women who say, Vivian, that sounds great. I would love the security of, that's what that is, of just that sense of control over some amount that is just mine.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:14Jefferson Fisher?

  But I am not working.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Because I'm raising these kids.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:19Jefferson Fisher?

  And if I were to ever bring up the conversation of, I'd like my own money.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:25Jefferson Fisher?

  That's going to bring a lot of hard conversations.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, I think you have to have the hard conversation.

• 41:33Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  And the hard conversation doesn't have to be, hey, I don't trust you, I'm planning on leaving at some point. Like, give me my own money. No, it's, hey, like, we have made a decision as a family that it doesn't make sense for me to be in the workforce because childcare is too expensive. Or, you know, we've decided that we need someone at home who's the household CEO.

• 41:57Speaker 02

  But just because the working spouse is the one going out of the house and making the money, that wouldn't necessarily be possible if the stay at home spouse wasn't taking care of everything at home.

• 42:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 42:12Speaker 02

  Being the kid's tutor, chauffeur, chef.

• 42:15Jefferson Fisher?

  All the other services.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  Literally nanny, all of those things.

• 42:17Jefferson Fisher?

  Everything.

• 42:18Speaker 02

  And so I would have a conversation of like, is there a way we can set it up so that there is a budget set aside for me every month for discretionary expenses that not only cover things that I might just want to do for our family, but also things that I want to do for myself? And I think the people who are scared to have these conversations, what really breaks my heart is that like,

• 42:47Speaker 02

  that might not necessarily be as good of a relationship as I want them to be in. Because your partner should want

• 42:56Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  financial stability for you. Like, your partner should want you to be able to stand on your own two feet.

• 43:03Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 43:03Speaker 02

  They want to be able to love you as a person, not just because you depend on them. Like,

• 43:07Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  if you only love them because you depend on them, you're not a person, you're a pet.

• 43:12Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  And I think that a lot of women need to have a long, hard look at some of their partners and ask, does my partner actually want the best for me?

• 43:25Jefferson Fisher?

  That's good. I like that. I agree with that.

• 43:28Speaker 02

  I wish it wasn't kind of such a painful answer, but.

• 43:31Jefferson Fisher?

  It's what it is.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:33Jefferson Fisher?

  And, and you care enough about your community and mine as well as the, they have to hear the answer that it needs. How do you, how, how should somebody think of talking to their kids about money?

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Hmm. I think having age appropriate conversations is the best thing we can do for them. I'm not asking you to share all of your financial details to a fifth grader who's 1,000% by the way, taking it to school and telling all of his friends.

• 44:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  All of her friends, they're gonna know. What I'm saying is like, when you go to the grocery store and you have a budget and the groceries for the week you budgeted $120 for, okay? And you are going through the cart and you can literally do the exercise. So, hey, dad loves brand name O's. Brand name O's cost.

• 44:25Jefferson Fisher?

  I love O's.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  $4 a box, okay? Store brand O's cost $2.30. What's the difference? Have them do that math. Like, you know, a fifth grader should certainly be able to do that math pretty easily, but also like, what is the value of one versus the other? I want that kid to be like, why don't we just get the store brand O's and then you can give me that 170 for a candy bar? That's budget, that's budgeting. That's prioritization. That candy bar has been prioritized over your name brand O's. And listen, like, I'm, I'm making a joke about your cereal comment, but like, that is a skill that that kid will one day have to do for themselves. Of what are the trade offs?

• 45:10Speaker 02

  If I have a finite amount of money, what groceries am I buying? How am I making smart decisions? As they get older, hey, sit down, we ought to have a conversation, okay? This is how much mom makes. Mom and I are having, you know, a, a discussion about her next career move. She is being offered a job that pays more, but is further away. Or a job that pays less and is still closer to home. The trade off is if she takes the job that's a little further away, you know, maybe she can't make it to every single cheerleading practice. Maybe she can't make it to every single ballet recital. Like, have that discussion as a family.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Obviously the adults are going to have to make the, you know, the true end all be all discussion, but like, include them.

• 46:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  I feel like so many kids also feel like they're being jerked around by their parents and just hammered with big decisions at the last minute. Why not have the discussion? Because at some point, that kid is also going to have to decide, do I opt for a longer commute for higher pay or a shorter one? Or which apartment is more expensive? And when you prepare them for those life skills during a time when it doesn't, where the stakes are zero, because you're still covering the bills, you're still taking care of them, it doesn't feel so scary when they do it the next time.

• 46:33Jefferson Fisher?

  I think one of the best ways you could start to talk to your kids about money is to start talking to your kids about money.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:40Jefferson Fisher?

  And I want to make sure that my audience hears, because I know you've been working on something that to me has just totally blown the roof off of any kind of money, financial tools, and it's so much more than that. But I want you to tell me and tell our listeners about your app, Ask Dolly, because this thing is just incredible. And I wish, Vivian, I wish I had this when I was like, starting in college, probably even earlier.

• 47:09Speaker 02

  So basically, I was getting so many questions about money in my DMs. And because I felt like.

• 47:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Is it your AI?

• 47:17Speaker 02

  It's, it's not, actually. It's way better than that. I've built a standalone app that allows you to do a financial wellness assessment of your money. So you know how you go and get a physical every year and they take your blood and they're like, hey, Jefferson, everything looks great, but you gotta watch that cholesterol.

• 47:34Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  Because there are certain things that you're doing really well and certain things that you need to improve on. We do the exact same thing, but with your money. We use Plaid to like securely encrypt people's accounts so we can then show them like, here are the places that you're strong. Great saver, but we should start investing. Hey, you are paying down your debt in the order that is not most advantageous. Would you want to reconsider? So we do a financial wellness assessment for you. And then you can ask any of the questions that you want 24/7, get a response for financial knowledge that we get from reputable sources as well as my old content. But if you ask a question that is too complex, too niche and one on one, we connect you the live human CFP so you can actually get financial advice for your situation.

• 48:18Speaker 02

  And that's powerful because financial advisors typically won't take your call until you have a six figure net worth or more. But I think the time when in my life I could have used that advice was when I was 22, not when I'm 32 and already have a great system and infrastructure built for myself. Last but not least, the app actually breaks down financial headlines because I'm always asking, well, what's this got to do with me? Okay, great, give me, I'm gonna show you what the headline is going to do to impact your wallet. So hey, if you already own a home or if you're in the market for a home, a rate change from the Federal Reserve is going to impact you differently. Or hey, if we have more taxes, if you fall in these buckets, it's going to impact you more than if you fall in these buckets.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  So it basically teaches you how to be more responsible with your own money and have these money conversations that you weren't able to have before.

• 49:11Jefferson Fisher?

  What an incredible tool.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 49:13Jefferson Fisher?

  That's awesome. I've seen a lot of things in the news, Vivian, about good, hardworking employees being laid off.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:21Jefferson Fisher?

  At this point in time, should we be asking for raises or should we just be thankful that we have jobs?

• 49:28Speaker 02

  Well, if I can swear.

• 49:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  Loyalty to your company ain't shit, okay? Let me be very clear. As soon as it is no longer financially like good for your company to be, you know, employing you, you will get cut. There is no such thing as loyalty in the workforce. We have to look out for number one. And so what I always say is, yes, you 1,000% should be asking for a raise every single year. But that also means you have to be a top performer every single year. I don't want someone who's just been put on a performance improvement plan to be asking for a raise. You don't deserve one.

• 50:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 50:10Speaker 02

  But if you're someone who goes above and beyond, you are always getting, exceeds expectations on your reviews. If everybody around you frankly enjoys working with you and you're producing results, 1,000% ask for that raise. And I always say, ask for 10 to 15% every year. Are you gonna get 10 to 15? Probably not. But that's where the negotiation should start.

• 50:33Jefferson Fisher?

  What's the best way to ask for a raise?

• 50:34Speaker 02

  I would say start in the summer. Like, winter raises are given in the summer. You know, same, same with the beach bodies or whatever, but the other way around. So in the summer, you do your six month check in with your boss and you're like, hey, six months has passed, like, these are the things that I've accomplished. These are my goals for the next six months. What are other things that I would need to get done or goals that I would need to accomplish or milestones I would need to achieve to be in a really good position to get a promotion to XYZ, to this new title? And they're gonna tell you and then you're gonna be like, okay, heard. That is your to do list now for the next six months. You then go and you knock it out the park.

• 51:20Speaker 02

  But then, we'll call it late fall, October, November time, we're hitting our manager back up. And you're saying, hey, remember all those goals, goals we talked about? I hit them. I hit all of them. And because of that, a raise of 10 to 15% on whatever you currently make would be commensurate with the experience I brought to the team, with the accomplishments I have already done and the fact that I'm already operating at new title. Okay? They're gonna say, okay, I hear you. They're not gonna give you an answer. They are going to go back to their like little huddle, because what's going to likely happen is HR is going to allocate budgets for that manager and their entire team.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  This is how it worked and at my, at my former job before this. And they would be allocated an entire pool of money and they would have to decide how to divvy that pool up between maybe 10 people on the team. And a bad manager does, oh, let me just divide by 10. Okay, that's how you lose your top talent. Like, great. I'm not working next to slacker Steve who clocks in at 11 and clocks out at 3:59. I'm not gonna kill myself for that. Why? That makes no sense. Instead, a good manager is going to say, I am going to feed the rich and starve the poor, which is unfortunate, but the top performers are gonna get paid every year.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  I don't care how bad the economy is. I don't care how bad the job market is. If you are a killer at work and everybody knows it, you've made it known. You have to come with receipts. You have to be able to show quantifiable success. You're gonna get paid.

• 53:03Jefferson Fisher?

  If you know that you've knocked everything out of the park. You've had an awesome year. You've done, but you've gone above and beyond and you've had the conversation and you don't get the raise.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:13Jefferson Fisher?

  What's the line between I'm gonna stay and maybe get it or I need to go find somebody who, who will meet that expectation?

• 53:21Speaker 02

  I think you should be sticking your foot out the door, looking the other way while still doing a great job at your current role. Because then you get a sense, right? Of like, is the industry contracting overall of like, when you go out and you're putting on that like, open to work on LinkedIn and, you know, you're talking to recruiters about like, this is what this job is likely going to pay at other places? You'll get a sense of what the market rate is.

• 53:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  And then you're gonna be like, oh, actually I'm being overpaid here. Okay, maybe I do shut up for a little bit. Cool my dress. Or you find out your company's number one competitor is gonna double your pay.

• 53:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  Run.

• 53:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. Yeah. Don't just walk.

• 54:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 54:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:02Jefferson Fisher?

  Vivian, thank you so much for spending time with me. I love the, the takeaways that we have on how to think about money differently and approaching it, especially in relationships, in dating, raises. And Ask Dolly, holy smokes, I think it's gonna, I think it's gonna change the world. I'm, I'm, I'm really excited about it. So very much big congratulations to you.

• 54:23Speaker 02

  I can't wait for you to play with it and try it out.

• 54:25Jefferson Fisher?

  It's gonna be, yeah, it's gonna be awesome. I'm excited. And really just congratulations on all the amazing things that you have going on.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I had a lot of fun.

• 54:34Jefferson Fisher?

  Thanks.

• 54:35Speaker 03

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