#294 - Psychic Spies, Scientology & Best Evidence for Life After Death | Jeffrey Mishlove

Watch every episode ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Jeffrey Mishlove is a clinical psychologist who holds a doctoral diploma in parapsychology. He is the author of an encyclopedic volume of consciousness studies, The Roots of Consciousness & host of New Thinking Allowed on YouTube. SPONSORS https://trueclassic.com/danny - Upgrade your wardrobe & save. https://stopboxusa.com/danny - Use code DANNY to get BOGO StopBox Pro + 10% off. https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off EPISODE LINKS Jeffrey's YouTube channel: @NewThinkingAllowed FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - Shared death experiences 14:56 - Parapsychology 22:43 - Jack Sarfatti, physics & consciousness 26:19 - Uri Geller spoon bending 31:33 - L Ron Hubbard 40:29 - Scientology & remote viewing 43:17 - The PK man, Ted Owens (a real psychic) 01:00:22 - Trust in Government 01:14:33 - Consciousness 01:23:36 - Retrocausality & UFOs 01:31:16 - Robert Bigelow competition 01:40:46 - NDEs and Bigelow Aerospace 01:50:50 - Chris Bledsoe 01:57:43 - Does everyone have ESP? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:07Danny Jones?

  Jeffrey Mishlove, thank you for coming, sir.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Pleasure.

• 0:09Danny Jones?

  It's a pleasure to meet you.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Likewise.

• 0:11Danny Jones?

  I'm a big fan of your show.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 0:12Danny Jones?

  One of my favorite parts, not to discredit all of your episodes and all of the incredible interviews you've done, but I just have to tell you, the intro to your show is the favorite intro to a podcast I've ever seen in my life.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 0:25Danny Jones?

  Do, do, do, do, do, do. That is the best jingle I've ever heard. I want to steal it from you.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it goes back to the 1980s.

• 0:35Danny Jones?

  It's gorgeous. I absolutely love it, man. I'm a huge fan. How, for people listening, explain your background. You've been interviewing all kinds of fascinating characters in the world of telekinesis and remote viewing. How long does this go back for you?

• 0:56Speaker 01

  1972.

• 0:57Danny Jones?

  1972.

• 0:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:59Danny Jones?

  And you used to do this on, was it the radio or was it television? Or how did this all start?

• 1:03Speaker 01

  It started on the radio, KPFA FM in Berkeley, California. If you had known me in 1972, when all of this began, I was a graduate student in criminology, the University of California, when I had probably the most powerful mystical experience of my life. And it turned me around. I realized I could no longer continue on a career track which was focusing on the negative side of human deviance, crime and psychopathology. I was

• 1:48Speaker 01

  working in the psychiatric unit of San Quentin Prison.

• 1:51Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  At the time, doing group therapy sessions with murderers and rapists.

• 1:56Danny Jones?

  How was that?

• 1:57Speaker 01

  Well, it was.

• 1:58Danny Jones?

  I bet it had to be fascinating.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  I'm grateful for the experience I had. I found the inmates there to be very interesting people, human beings, just like you and me. What I found was unfortunate is that the prison staff didn't see it that way. They thought of them as somehow non-human. They would use phrases like they're a different kind of cat.

• 2:24Danny Jones?

  Hmm, yeah.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Which I thought was sad, but at any point after having had, it wasn't just a mystical experience, it was what we would now call a shared death experience.

• 2:38Danny Jones?

  A shared death experience?

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:42Danny Jones?

  How old were you?

• 2:43Speaker 01

  I, well, let's see, 1972, I was 25, 26 years old, 25.

• 2:50Danny Jones?

  25 years old, so what happened?

• 2:52Speaker 01

  My great uncle Harry, who was thousands of miles away in Wisconsin, died. And he died, it would have been 9:30 in the morning, his time, 7:30 my time, I was in bed, asleep, when he came to me in a dream. It was the most powerful dream I've ever had in my life. And I awakened from that dream, I was just sobbing, tears of joy, and singing at the same time.

• 3:24Danny Jones?

  Singing?

• 3:25Speaker 01

  Singing.

• 3:26Danny Jones?

  What song were you singing?

• 3:27Speaker 01

  I was singing, from my Jewish religious tradition, one of the most sacred songs.

• 3:33Danny Jones?

  Which one?

• 3:34Speaker 01

  It's called Avinu Malkenu. It's only sung at what we call the high holy holidays.

• 3:39Danny Jones?

  Which one is that? I'm trying to remember which one that is. How does it go?

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Avinu Malkenu.

• 3:46Danny Jones?

  Oh, you woke up singing that?

• 3:48Speaker 01

  I woke up singing Avinu Malkenu.

• 3:51Danny Jones?

  And crying?

• 3:52Speaker 01

  And crying, tears of joy. I was so touched. And I wrote home, I said, how's Uncle Harry? I had a dream about him. My mother phoned me as soon as she got my letter and said, how did you know Uncle Harry had just died, literally at the moment of my dream? That's why. It would fit the definition of what is now known as a shared death experience. It's like he took me along with him partway for the ride.

• 4:21Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  And at that point, I said, I need to switch my career direction away from the negative side of human deviance to look at the positive side of human deviance.

• 4:36Danny Jones?

  Well, that death is definitely a negative thing. I mean, that's kind of scary.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  No, it's not.

• 4:40Danny Jones?

  It's not?

• 4:41Speaker 01

  No. Death, I mean, yes, we biological creatures are frightened by the thought of death, but it was the most beautiful experience.

• 4:52Danny Jones?

  How so?

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Well, it's hard to put into language, into words to tell you what joy I felt, that I would be just overwhelmed with this sense of peace and bliss and love.

• 5:13Danny Jones?

  Who was the gentleman, Steve, that we had in here who wrote, who did the study on near death experiences?

• 5:19Speaker 01

  That was Jeffrey Long.

• 5:20Danny Jones?

  Jeffrey Long came in here. I don't know if you've ever heard of him, but he, um, he was explaining to me how these people have experiences when, for example, when two people are in a car crash or a car accident together and one dies and one survives, the person who survives has a near death experience and explain, has, there's been multiple accounts where one of, the one that survived explained this near death experience where them and the person they were with kind of ascended into this ethereal dimension and the other one was like taken away and then they came back down into their bodies. And this apparently is an account, I forgot the name of it, but I want to, I think it was something like shared, something similar to what you said.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Very similar.

• 6:06Danny Jones?

  But where they were both in the same situation.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. It often happens at a deathbed when grieving relatives are around a loved one who is dying, that they'll go along at least partway and experience the transition.

• 6:24Danny Jones?

  What do you think that is?

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's like going home. I'm pretty convinced that we are much larger than our biological selves, that we also have a spiritual component to our psyche. And the spiritual component, I don't know that it's infinite or eternal, but it's close, much closer to that. It's much, much larger than just being a Homo sapien here on planet Earth.

• 6:59Danny Jones?

  Hmm. So that must have been an interesting transition for you. When you were in these prisons, you were spending your days interviewing essentially psychopaths, right? Like murderers, rapists, some of the worst human beings on earth.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 7:17Danny Jones?

  And with your understanding of the human psyche and the makeup of the of the human condition, what what do you think led you into the direction that you ended up going after you had this experience when you were 25?

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Well, I agonized over it. Like, how do I change my career? How do I find a path that will allow me to devote my lifetime to looking at what I call the positive side of human deviance, which is mysticism, creativity, psychic functioning, and intuition? And, you know, I was at one of the world's great universities, but they didn't have programs along those lines. You could

• 8:03Danny Jones?

  What university were you at?

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Berkeley.

• 8:05Danny Jones?

  Berkeley. Oh, wow.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:07Danny Jones?

  Okay. Were you reading books on this stuff prior? Did you know any? Have you heard any like crazy phenomenal stories, exceptional stories about stuff like this before this happened?

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. You see, I'm a child of the 1960s, really. My undergraduate work went from 1965 to 69. I was exposed to the human potential movement. I was exposed to psychedelics. I, in fact,

• 8:38Danny Jones?

  During the B group, during the, you were in college during the Vietnam War?

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Yes, the University of Wisconsin.

• 8:44Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  I did a senior honors thesis on the psychology of religious mysticism. So I was very aware of the literature. At that point, I had just chosen a career path that was different. I mean, it's one thing to have an avocational interest in the paranormal and mysticism. It's another thing, a much more difficult thing to pursue it professionally.

• 9:13Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I saw you interviewed Terrence McKenna.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  Many times.

• 9:16Danny Jones?

  That's badass. That is so cool. What was he like?

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Lovely person and, and one of the most articulate human beings I'd ever known.

• 9:27Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Fascinating. How, how did you guys, did you just reach out to him to, to be on the show? Or were you like, did you guys work together on anything or?

• 9:36Speaker 01

  No, we never.

• 9:36Danny Jones?

  How did you guys come in touch?

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Worked together, but,

• 9:41Speaker 01

  gosh, it's been so long.

• 9:43Danny Jones?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  You know, I did those early programs in the San Francisco Bay area.

• 9:50Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  And Terrence was there and, and so many of the people I interviewed were, were there. I used to think of the Bay area as the capital of the consciousness movement.

• 10:00Danny Jones?

  What year did you interview him?

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Oh, it would have been in the 1980s.

• 10:06Danny Jones?

  What? Okay. In the eighties.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Eighties, maybe nineties.

• 10:10Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  The, the TV program that I hosted, the original Thinking Allowed series, ran from 1986 to 2002.

• 10:22Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Okay. I mean, you were in, were you in the Bay, you weren't in the Bay area in the seventies?

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Yes, I was.

• 10:31Danny Jones?

  Oh, you still were?

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:32Danny Jones?

  When were, when were the Manson murders? I don't remember.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:35Danny Jones?

  Was that the same time?

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Well, I, I think so.

• 10:39Danny Jones?

  Have you ever, have you ever heard of Tom O'Neill, the guy who wrote, he wrote the book called,

• 10:45Danny Jones?

  Chaos?

• 10:48Danny Jones?

  He did a, he did a, so Tom O'Neill, he's a, um, he was a journalist living in LA and he in the, um, God, I forget what year it is. Essentially, he worked for like an entertainment music magazine in LA and, um, oh, it says, it says the actual year. Yeah, I, I forget the year. Sixty-nine? Okay.

• 11:08Danny Jones?

  Yeah, August 10th, sixty-nine.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  So I moved to the Bay Area in sixty-nine.

• 11:12Danny Jones?

  Oh, really? Okay.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just arrived.

• 11:14Danny Jones?

  You just got there.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  In August, yeah.

• 11:16Danny Jones?

  Um, so, so, um, again, Tom O'Neill was working in, I want to say it was like the year two thousand, maybe? He got, um, an assignment to write basically an article on the thirty, whatever year anniversary of the Manson murders. Um, so we started doing that and after about six months, he like, he wasn't interested in this at all for, to start off with, but after about six months, he started to like, get all these leads and like, start getting interested in it and being like, getting led down all these rabbit holes. Like, whoa, whoa, like, couldn't believe what he was finding out about the, about, you know, what, what actually happened and all like,

• 11:57Danny Jones?

  he's like, this isn't matching up because, you know, the famous Helter Skelter book that was written by the prosecutor.

• 12:04Danny Jones?

  That was his familiarity with the, with the case and he was like, everything that he was learning was not lining up with any of that stuff. And long story short, he ended up getting fired from the magazine because he was taking too long and he kept reporting on it. So he would like dedicate the next ten or twenty years to reporting this and he, he followed up on everything from, uh, from Manson's, his probation officer and all the people that were surrounding him, all the people that were a part of that clinic, that hate Ashbury clinic, um, in the Bay Area, in San Francisco. And they were doing, um,

• 12:46Danny Jones?

  apparently that clinic was funded by the CIA and they were doing these experiments on people. It was part of this operation called Chaos where they were, you know, it was, it was basically in conjunction with MKUltra and the other one, forget, I forget the name of the other one, but they were doing experiments with LSD and amphetamines. So giving people amphetamines to LSD and seeing how they could manipulate the mind or control the mind. Yeah, it was Chaos, MKUltra, and I forget the name of the other one. Like Manson kept getting let off probation. He was not supposed to be let off probation all those times. He kept getting caught for all these crazy, crazy things, you know, like stealing cars

• 13:31Danny Jones?

  and all this stuff. They kept, he kept getting let out when he shouldn't have been let out. And the fact that he was kept going to this clinic that was connected to the CIA and funded by the CIA and all this stuff, it's a fascinating book, but it takes place right in the area where you were.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:46Danny Jones?

  Right after those murders. And then Jolly West, are you familiar with Jolly West? Jolly West was a CIA chemist who did, he's famous for injecting the elephant, that giant circus elephant with LSD. I think he gave him like a couple ounces of LSD and ended up killing the elephant. And he was really proud of that. He bragged about that openly. And Jolly West was also the guy, yeah, there he is, Joyland West. He was connected to that clinic in Haight-Ashbury. He actually visited Jack Ruby in prison multiple times before he died. So, and he was connected to the CIA.

• 14:30Danny Jones?

  So anyways, that was a long tangent, but it's interesting that this was all going on at the same time you were in that area.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was. You got, when I think of the Bay Area as the capital of consciousness, you had both the high and the low.

• 14:44Danny Jones?

  So, okay, so you were, you were talking to people like McKenna, you were talking to people like, like Jacques Vallée back, back in the day around the same time, right?

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:56Danny Jones?

  So this is just what you went into? You went into journalism essentially?

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Well, I was agonizing over what to do for months because there were, was no pathway at the university and I was a graduate student in good standing.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  And one day, after months of trying to figure this out, I woke up with a certainty that the answer was going to come to me that day in a dream.

• 15:25Danny Jones?

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• 16:48Speaker 01

  And I went to bed at night feeling very confident. I'm gonna have the dream tonight, and it's gonna point me in the right direction. And, and I did, I had a dream, and in this dream, I was visiting some friends who lived across town in Berkeley in married student housing, came up to their apartment, knocked on the door. Nobody was home. In the dream, I found a key, let myself into their apartment, walked into the living room, and there in the middle of the living room floor was a magazine. I picked it up. It was called I E Y E, which in fact, there was such a magazine back then. And

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Then I woke up with this feeling of exhilaration, like I have the answer now, but I had no idea what it meant, none at all. So I did something very unusual. I've never done it since, never done it before either. I put on my tennis shoes, ran five miles across town, came to this apartment, knocked on the door, just as I had in the dream, and nobody was home, as I had dreamt. And I happened to know where they kept a key hidden. I took the key, let myself in, walked into the living room, and there, in the middle of the living room floor, as I had dreamt, was a magazine. It was called

• 18:15Speaker 01

  Focus, which for any of your viewers who are familiar with the San Francisco Bay area, that's the magazine of listener-sponsored radio and television, KQED. And as I'm paging through this magazine, it dawned on me, for the first time in my life, I could pursue my interests by getting involved in the nonprofit section of the media, which was a complete change, because at that moment, I didn't own a radio or a TV. In fact, I had an attitude about them. I felt that electronic communication was phony baloney, that the only authentic

• 18:58Speaker 01

  human communication was face-to-face. And I changed my mind at that moment, and went to KPFA Radio in Berkeley, where I live, which was a nonprofit radio from the Pacifica Network. And I said, I'd like to volunteer. And they said, even though at that point I had a master's degree, they said, sure, sit at this desk, and when you hear the buzzer from people trying to get into the front door, push this button and let them in. And, and I gladly did it. And within three weeks, I had learned how to produce a

• 19:37Speaker 01

  radio program. I had produced one. The program director liked it and he said, we have a regular slot, a program called The Mind's Ear, every Tuesday and Thursday at noon. Would you like to host it?

• 19:52Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  So, within just a few weeks of my dream, I'm sitting at a table like this with 10,000 people listening in on the conversation and world-class experts from everywhere who are on book tours, coming through the San Francisco Bay area, and all the subjects that interested me the most showed up. And, and that gave me the confidence to go back to the University of California and take advantage of a very obscure rule they had, which is if you are a graduate student in good standing, and you want to do a doctoral dissertation in

• 20:35Speaker 01

  a topic where no department will sponsor you, but you can find three faculty members from different departments who are willing to sponsor you, you can create your own unique, individual interdisciplinary doctoral major. So I did that in parapsychology.

• 20:54Danny Jones?

  Parapsychology?

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:56Danny Jones?

  Okay. For people listening, for normies out there, what is parapsychology?

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Parapsychology is the scientific study of extrasensory perception, telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition, and mind over matter, or psychokinesis or telekinesis.

• 21:13Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 21:16Danny Jones?

  Woo woo. Crazy out there stuff.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  It, well, it is crazy out there, but this, we're talking about applying the scientific method.

• 21:24Danny Jones?

  Yes. Um, when I first learned about this stuff, I was like, like, this is bullshit. Like, I don't, this is complete horseshit. There's no way this is real. These are, you know, People out there that have just gone too far,

• 21:41Speaker 01

  No.

• 21:42Danny Jones?

  Read too many science fiction books until, you know, until I realized about the program that was quite literally funded by the US military to do this stuff.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:54Danny Jones?

  And if the US military and the CIA is willing to spend millions of dollars on this stuff, like David Morehouse explained, there's got to be something to it. And the way he put it is, I think was the way one of the, one of the generals explained to him, or somebody in the intelligence agency explained to him, he goes, if there's a 1% chance that this works 1% of the time, it's worth a lot of money. Especially during the Cold War. So, um, and I've talked to, I don't know if you're familiar with Jack Sarfatti?

• 22:28Speaker 01

  Oh, very much.

• 22:29Danny Jones?

  Oh, really? He's a character.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:32Danny Jones?

  He's a funny guy. I love, I love Jack.

• 22:35Danny Jones?

  Yeah, we went and talked to him in, in San Francisco and he was explaining the background with the, the SRI, the Stanford thing that was going on back then.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Back in 1975, I published my first book, The Roots of Consciousness. And Jack Sarfatti wrote an appendix that was published in that book on physics and consciousness.

• 22:57Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:58Danny Jones?

  What did he say about it?

• 22:59Speaker 01

  He said that consciousness was related and psychic functioning was related to the, what's known as the EPR effect in physics, the Einstein-Rosenpodolsky hypothesis, which is now known as quantum entanglement.

• 23:18Danny Jones?

  Okay. Anytime I try to ask him something, he just calls me an idiot. Danny, Danny, you're a schmuck. It's the Kippenkin principle, okay? You gotta understand it. You don't understand the Kippenkin principle. You're a schmuck. You don't know science.

• 23:32Danny Jones?

  He's a national treasure, that guy.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Well, he's very arrogant.

• 23:38Danny Jones?

  arrogance

• 23:40Danny Jones?

  but he's great from Brooklyn you know it comes with it comes with the territory his story you believe his story

• 23:45Speaker 01

  yeah

• 23:46Danny Jones?

  his story about when he was a kid when he got the phone call

• 23:48Speaker 01

  very familiar with his story I have no reason to disbelieve him on the other hand I don't know what to make of it

• 23:56Danny Jones?

  yeah so apparently he got a phone call for people that aren't familiar he got a phone call when he was like I forget how old 12 years old something like that sorry Jack I'm this up um and it was some sort of being explaining to him do you remember what it was

• 24:14Speaker 01

  yes he said it was a um a an intelligent robot

• 24:19Danny Jones?

  oh that's what it was yeah

• 24:20Speaker 01

  aboard a UFO that told him that it's from the future

• 24:26Danny Jones?

  right

• 24:26Speaker 01

  and that he is going to meet certain people and that he has been destined to help provide a scientific understanding of our relationship with alien beings

• 24:40Danny Jones?

  hmm yeah

• 24:44Danny Jones?

  hell of a story

• 24:46Speaker 01

  it is

• 24:46Danny Jones?

  hell of a story and it's you know if there's anything to it it explains his attitude towards all this stuff you know

• 24:54Speaker 01

  well I also think we have to appreciate that when you're dealing with paranormal phenomena

• 25:00Danny Jones?

  yeah

• 25:01Speaker 01

  there's a trickster element and involves so many authentic paranormal experiences and up misleading people

• 25:11Danny Jones?

  hmm how so what do you mean by that

• 25:13Speaker 01

  well for example now Jack Sarfatti believes himself to have solved the mystery of UFO propulsion

• 25:20Danny Jones?

  oh yeah yeah yeah he figured out warp drive

• 25:22Speaker 01

  yeah all of that I have no idea whether his idea his hypotheses are correct or not but he's convinced that they are but I think a true scientist would say it's a just a hypothesis at this point until it's been demonstrated experimentally

• 25:43Danny Jones?

  hmm yeah yeah

• 25:47Danny Jones?

  It's just interesting that there was all that money going into the guy, you know, him, Hal Puthoff and those guys at Stanford back in the day to do this, this stuff, this remote viewing stuff and this like this magic stuff that with, um, with Uri Geller and.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Well, so Fadi didn't get any of that money.

• 26:08Danny Jones?

  No, no, but he was there with them, wasn't he?

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Well, uh, very much on the periphery.

• 26:12Danny Jones?

  Yeah, he was on the periphery. Right, right, right. He's not gonna like this. Sorry, Jack. I love you, Jack.

• 26:20Danny Jones?

  Uh, you, have you read, have you heard of, uh, Annie Jacobson?

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:23Danny Jones?

  She wrote that book called, uh, The Phenomena.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:27Danny Jones?

  Fascinating book. And, uh, it starts out explaining the story of Uri Geller and who was the guy who discovered Uri Geller?

• 26:37Speaker 01

  Andrea Puharic.

• 26:38Danny Jones?

  Andrea Puharic, yeah, yeah. Did you, you wrote about that, uh, Puharic quite a bit, right?

• 26:45Speaker 01

  Yes, I knew him.

• 26:46Danny Jones?

  For people that don't understand, can you explain who he, oh, you knew him personally?

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 26:49Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I invited him to, uh, come and present in Berkeley in 1972 at, at a big conference I sponsored on, uh, called The Frontiers of Consciousness. That's where he gave the very first public report of his work with Uri Geller. And then I invited Uri Geller to come and present and demonstrate his abilities at Berkeley. I think that would have been in early 1973. It was Geller's first major public appearance in the United States.

• 27:23Danny Jones?

  Can he really bend spoons?

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:25Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 27:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:26Danny Jones?

  You've seen him do it?

• 27:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:29Danny Jones?

  Like picking up a, like a random spoon. You've seen him pick it up and bend it?

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Well.

• 27:34Danny Jones?

  Cause David Morehouse was telling me he saw him do it at a restaurant, like walked up to a, someone's, someone he didn't know, picked up their spoon and held it and like, eat it then.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  You know, the, many of these things were witnessed by other scientists, but I myself have personally witnessed maybe three or four instances of that sort of thing.

• 27:54Danny Jones?

  How, how does that work?

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Good question.

• 27:59Danny Jones?

  How would you guess?

• 28:00Speaker 01

  Well, I, I suppose you'd have to say, reality is much more malleable than we normally take it to be. We live in a world that we think is, operates according to the principles of Newtonian physics. And that simply applies maybe 99.9% of the time, but not 100%.

• 28:22Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Yeah, there, there was, um, something she was, Annie was explaining in her book, The Phenomena, where there was this new part of physics that they were, that Puharic was looking into. I forget the word. It was some crazy scientific word, but that like essentially, what they found out was, um, there was a guy by the name of, I want to say his last name was Baker, who worked for the CIA and he was the polygraph specialist. And one day, I guess he was sitting in the, in the agency board and he said, looking at a plant, he was, I'm going to hook up this polygraph to the plant.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Cleve Baxter.

• 29:03Danny Jones?

  Cleve Baxter. Yes. You're an encyclopedia on this shit, man. Um, so Cleve Baxter said, I'm going to light this plant on fire and see what happens with the polygraph. And as he struck the match onto the matchbox, right when he lit the match, the polygraph went off the charts.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:23Danny Jones?

  Before he even touched it to the plant, which is crazy.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 29:27Danny Jones?

  And then I guess he went on to cut a plant into multiple pieces, put it in different areas and see if, somehow do tests to see if there was any connection between them. Are you familiar with this stuff?

• 29:39Speaker 01

  I, I am familiar with it. And to my knowledge, other people have attempted to replicate, uh, his findings and have not been so fortunate.

• 29:49Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. It often happens in, in the field of the paranormal. And, and so what we don't know is to what extent was he influencing the experiment using, uh, whatever native psychokinetic abilities he might've had.

• 30:07Danny Jones?

  So how long did it take you to get your degree in parapsychology?

• 30:10Speaker 01

  About seven years.

• 30:11Danny Jones?

  Seven years.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  I got it in 1980.

• 30:14Danny Jones?

  And did you just choose what to study and like what to read? Or how did you go about doing it?

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Well, it was independent study. So I, I had a lot of leeway. I was very self motivated. My first book, The Roots of Consciousness was published in 75, five years before I got the degree. So that I considered that book to be sort of the equivalent of a qualifying exam to demonstrate to my academic committee that I knew the field. It was like an overview of the whole field, that I understood the, the territory.

• 30:51Danny Jones?

  And did you ever get contacted by the government, the military, the CIA, anything like that to work on any of these special projects?

• 30:56Speaker 01

  No.

• 30:57Danny Jones?

  Why not?

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Well, probably because of my history as a pot smoking psychedelic.

• 31:04Danny Jones?

  All these guys were pot smoking hippies in the sixties, weren't they? That was ubiquitous.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  I don't know if, if you had a, a government contract with the CIA, probably not.

• 31:18Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 31:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:19Danny Jones?

  So Hal Puthoff and these guys are fuddy, these guys were, these guys were straight up not touching any of that stuff?

• 31:25Speaker 01

  That's my impression. I've never seen them use any substances of that sort.

• 31:33Danny Jones?

  I heard Hal Puthoff used to be a Scientologist.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:36Danny Jones?

  That's interesting.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  That, that's definitely true.

• 31:38Danny Jones?

  What do you make?

• 31:39Speaker 01

  Many of the people in the original remote viewing work, Hal Puthoff, Ingo Swan, Ed May were, were Scientologists.

• 31:48Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:49Danny Jones?

  What do you make of that?

• 31:51Speaker 01

  I think that L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology was on to something.

• 31:55Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 31:56Speaker 01

  And he was able to communicate it to these people and, and that I don't endorse or support Scientology, but I think there's something there worth taking a close look at.

• 32:09Danny Jones?

  You know, he was the most prolific science fiction writer of all time. I think he wrote more science fiction than anyone, like he's published more. Science fiction works, I think, than anyone in, in history, as far as I'm aware. And it's just the, you know, the.

• 32:28Danny Jones?

  The way that thing is structured and you know, there's so many horror stories of Scientology and people being kept as slaves.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:35Danny Jones?

  And I actually interviewed the father of David Miscavige.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 32:41Danny Jones?

  On this show years ago. And he was telling some, some terrifying stories of what he had to go through like that when he was in Clearwater. And this is like 10 minutes away from where we're sitting right now is the, is the flag, the head of Scientology where Eleanor Hubbard used to, where he parked his ship.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 32:58Danny Jones?

  And his dad was explaining how, you know, they kept him there and he had to like escape, like he like planned out this crazy dramatic escape, how he, you know, had to get out and he was chased by security. And um, there was a moment where he was being spied on by David Miscavige's people. And he knew they were following him everywhere. And there was a point where he was at the grocery store and he had a literal heart attack at the grocery store. And he knew that those guys were there and they could have helped him. So he was like waving for them to help them because they knew that they were hired by his son to spy on him. And they just left and didn't do anything. And they were like, apparently like David wanted his dad to just die. So.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  That's very sad.

• 33:40Danny Jones?

  It's very sad and it's, yeah. It's, it's so interesting that all these guys were so, so into it.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Well, before it was Dianet Scientology, it was known as Dianetics.

• 33:52Danny Jones?

  Okay. And that was the name of the book that he published, right?

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:54Danny Jones?

  Right?

• 33:55Speaker 01

  And I had a mentor in my early years in, in the parapsychology program, Arthur M. Young, who was the founder of what was known at that time as the Institute for the Study of Consciousness. He was also the inventor of the Bell helicopter, the first commercially licensed helicopter. And he and his wife Ruth went through Dianetics and became Dianetic clears.

• 34:22Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 34:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, before Scientology even was founded as a separate organization and they got a lot out of it. So I think-

• 34:30Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I've heard there's a lot to take from it, right? There's a lot of good stuff. There's a lot of good stuff in that, in the book, like, like eliminating all the negative influences in your life, focusing on, you know, and all the most, all the richest people in this town are Scientologists. Not all the richest people, but let me put it differently. Um, most of the Scientologists are very wealthy folks around here. And I don't know what that is. I mean, is there, there's definitely something to it that's really beneficial for, for people before, maybe before you start getting into the guy, the Xenu Galactic Overlord that came out of a volcano and, you know.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  I think it's probably true of most cults. They all have something of, of positive value to attract people.

• 35:15Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  But then you get the organizational politics and-

• 35:19Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Things, things go bad.

• 35:21Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah. Like the, um, what was the cult where they, they all wore the Michael Jordan sneakers and then they all did, they committed suicide in California?

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 35:31Danny Jones?

  They thought they were gonna like beam up to a spaceship to, uh, cause there was a hail bop comet, right?

• 35:35Speaker 01

  Right. Bo Peep, I think they were known as.

• 35:38Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah. They thought they were all gonna like go up to a, they get like beamed up to a spaceship after they killed themselves.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Heaven's Gate.

• 35:45Danny Jones?

  Heaven's Gate, that's what it was.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Mm-hmm. That, that was a real setback for the field of remote viewing as well, because a, a prominent remote viewer was associated with promoting the idea that the hail bop comet was being accompanied by a mysterious spacecraft. And so this cult built on that belief, which was not true. There wasn't a spacecraft accompanying the comet, but there had been some photograph, I think, published that might've led one to draw that conclusion. But in any case, the Heaven's Gate people took that to be true. And, um, then, then the suicide resulted. And so people tended to blame-

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Uh, the remote viewers involved who got on, as I recall, the Art Bell Show and, and proclaimed, you know, that there was a UFO coming along with the comet.

• 36:40Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Yeah. And, you know, we think they're all crazy, you know, but maybe they did get beamed up to a spaceship and maybe they're the ones that are laughing to think, you know, look, these guys don't, they think we all just killed each other and we were all idiots. But, you know, we're on a different, we're on a different planet now and we're flying around in flying saucers. Maybe they, uh, we're onto something.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 37:01Danny Jones?

  Maybe the Scientologists are onto something. Who knows? Maybe all these documentaries and all this stuff, it's all just propaganda and strategic deception. So that human beings can't figure out that Scientology really is, maybe all that shit's real. Who knows?

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Well, there's a lot of misinformation.

• 37:16Danny Jones?

  Yes, there's a lot. It's hard to, it's hard to know what's real these days. Really hard.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  That's where, um, you know, I focus on evidence and empiricism and the scientific method can be helpful.

• 37:29Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Yeah. In, um, specifically in like downtown Clearwater in that, the area that's 10 minutes away from here. There's this beautiful downtown area with all these, you know, it's on the water. It's great. Um, lots of tourists come. Scientology bought basically like, I want to say it's 75, 80% of all the retail, um, the retail storefront buildings that are like right on the main strip there. And they just leave them empty. So that like businesses don't come because they want to keep it just Scientology land. Apparently they don't want it to be like full of tourists. But there's like this weird shadow war going on between Scientology and like the mayor of Clearwater

• 38:10Danny Jones?

  because they want to bring in businesses and tourists and Scientology doesn't. And Scientology's worth all this money and they apparently, you know, still have a ton of it and they've, I think they're the biggest real estate holder and they own more real estate than like any business in the, can you fact check that? Uh, see how much real estate Scientology owns. Cause I heard, I know like years ago, they used to be like the top one or two holders of commercial real estate in the U S. But it's probably not true anymore.

• 38:42Danny Jones?

  Uh, I found a nice little picture. Um, y'all can chew on that. Not just, uh, in Clearwater though, like in the U S. Oh, in the U S. Yeah. How much real estate does the Church of Scientology?

• 38:53Speaker 01

  It'd be hard to compete with the Catholic Church.

• 38:56Danny Jones?

  Oh yeah, for sure. Well, do they really own real estate though? They, uh, they're kind of a different beast, right?

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Well, they have these cathedrals.

• 39:04Danny Jones?

  Right, right. All over Europe.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  And, and the U S.

• 39:07Danny Jones?

  Yeah. The Catholic Church is a crazy one.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:11Danny Jones?

  That's a, you know, I heard there's a lot of spooky in the Vatican too.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:18Danny Jones?

  So, I mean, we're here, we're here, um, talking bad about Scientology, but there's a lot of bad shit that, uh, that the Catholic Church has done too.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Well, of course there, we have the witchcraft burnings amongst other things, the Inquisition. But at the same time, the Catholic Church has a very rigorous process for evaluating claims of miracles performed by saints and, and so on. So that, uh, uh, there, there's some very interesting cases of human levitation, for example, that have been very carefully investigated by the Catholic Church.

• 39:56Danny Jones?

  Yeah. You know Jeffrey Kreipel?

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Yes, indeed.

• 39:58Danny Jones?

  Yeah. He was telling me that he was called by some guy who was like at the Department of Energy or something, or DARPA, I don't remember what it was, or some, some aerospace company called him up to do a, uh, a, uh, I forget the word he used. He called it like an intellectual lounge where they wanted him, a professor of religion, to explain to them human levitation in like antiquity.

• 40:24Danny Jones?

  For propulsion. Yeah, he was a propulsion expert at like JPL or something like that. But, um. What were we talking about before we got in this Scientology tangent?

• 40:32Speaker 01

  Remote viewing.

• 40:33Danny Jones?

  Remote viewing, yes. We were talking about how a lot of remote viewers, legendary remote viewers, like how Pudoff were Scientologists at one point.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Now, Hal Pudoff was a researcher, not a remote viewer.

• 40:43Danny Jones?

  Okay, okay. He was also a physicist, right?

• 40:45Speaker 01

  Yes, he was a physicist. Ingo Swan, who was considered by many people the father of remote viewing, he was psychic, he was an experiencer, and he was also a Scientologist.

• 40:57Danny Jones?

  Hmm, yes, and he wrote a lot about him in the phenomena book.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:01Danny Jones?

  Ingo Swan, who had like a really strange childhood. He was a Scientologist his whole life?

• 41:08Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know when he started or when he separated, if he did. I'm not sure the exact details, but he was a Scientologist and he was instrumental in bringing Ed May into the program. And Ed May was a Scientologist, so I assume that, and also Pat Price was a Scientologist, another one of the top remote viewers. So there's definitely a strong connection there, but.

• 41:35Danny Jones?

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• 42:18Danny Jones?

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• 43:01Danny Jones?

  I don't know if they're allowed to like publicly go out and like have debates about Scientology. Cause I know there's a lot of weird rules with it. I would just be interested to hear like what, what those guys have to say about it and what they had to say about all the naysayers and all the stuff that's come out about it, you know?

• 43:17Speaker 01

  It would be interesting.

• 43:18Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah, it definitely would be.

• 43:21Danny Jones?

  And so Ed May is a guy that you wrote a book about, right?

• 43:24Speaker 01

  No, I didn't write-

• 43:25Danny Jones?

  Who's the guy that you wrote the book about called the PK man?

• 43:27Speaker 01

  The PK man is a fellow named Ted Owens.

• 43:29Danny Jones?

  Ted Owens, okay.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  He's, he's-

• 43:31Danny Jones?

  Ed May's the guy who did the bell helicopter.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  No, no, that was Arthur M. Young.

• 43:35Danny Jones?

  Arthur M. Young, okay.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  When Hal Pudoff left the remote viewing program at SRI, he went to, down to Texas to work at a think tank there and where he, he began doing other work, like looking at UFO propulsion and things of that sort. The program was taken over by Ed May, who was a physicist brought into the program and also a Scientologist, brought into the program by Ingo Swan.

• 44:05Danny Jones?

  Okay, okay. So tell me about the PK man.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  The PK man is a fellow named Ted Owens. I met him in 1976. I'd been aware of his reputation before then, but there is a remote viewing connection because I met him at SRI.

• 44:22Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  International. Hal Pudoff and Russell Targ were running the program there. Russell, incidentally, is not a Scientologist.

• 44:30Danny Jones?

  Jack always talks about Russell. Russell Targ.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  I recently published a book of 15 interviews with Russell Targ.

• 44:38Danny Jones?

  Is he still alive?

• 44:39Speaker 01

  Yes, he just turned 90 last April.

• 44:41Danny Jones?

  Wow, what's he doing nowadays?

• 44:43Speaker 01

  Well, at the age of 90, he's slowed down a bit, but he still does interviews.

• 44:53Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's amazing.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, you could probably get him.

• 44:55Danny Jones?

  Oh, I would love to.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Uh huh. Uh, he's a very good friend of mine. I would call him a dear friend.

• 45:02Danny Jones?

  Does he live, do you guys live close to each other?

• 45:03Speaker 01

  No, he, I used to live in the Bay Area, so I, Russell and I would get together practically every week.

• 45:09Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  But now I've moved far away.

• 45:13Danny Jones?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  So the PK man. The PK man Ted Owens, I was invited to SRI to experience remote viewing for myself. It was February nineteen seventy six. Right, right. And I did, I did what I regard as a successful remote viewing experience then. And but while I was there, the people in the office were all abuzz about this character Ted Owens. Because he had been writing to them for some time, saying they had achieved already a lot of notoriety, which they didn't want because of their work with Uri Geller, the Israeli psychic.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  And Ted Owens was writing to them, saying, why are you wasting your time with this Israeli psychic? Because I'm the world's greatest psychic, you should be testing me. And this went on for some time. I'll see you bend a spoon, buddy. They kept ignoring him. And then shortly before my visit, he wrote to them and he said, I'm going to prove to you that I am the world's greatest psychic. And he said, right now, there's a terrible drought going on in California, which there was. It was so bad that they piped water where I lived across the Richmond Bridge into Marin County. Oh, wow.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  And people would say, if it's yellow, let it mellow, don't flush your toilet. If it's brown, flush it down. So very serious drought. He said, I'm going to end that drought and you will know that I ended it. It will happen in a matter of days. And there will be every crazy kind of weather, snow, sleet, hail and UFO sightings, which is my trademark. And your local newspaper will publish an article saying that the drought is ended. And at the time, the newspaper stories were saying, no end in sight to the drought. So this happened like three days later after Owens had sent them the message.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  So Russell Targ sent him back a message saying, that was a very good prediction. Congratulations. And Ted Owens wrote back to them and said, hell, no, it was not a prediction. I caused it.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  And that's when they said, "We can't have this guy here. We're working with the CIA. We're getting government funding. We need to keep a very low profile. But Jeffrey, you're a young, promising graduate student. Would you mind taking this file that we had, a large file of communication from him, off of our hands? Maybe you could follow up on it." Who said this? Helped off in Russell Targ. They told you? Yeah. To take this? Yeah. Which I did. I took their file. And I met Ted Owens a few months later in England. I was attending a parapsychology conference in England. And it turned out that word got

• 48:23Speaker 01

  out about the drought in California. In fact, they published a little news story about it in a magazine popular at that time called Psychic Magazine. People in England were then experiencing a drought that summer. And they heard about it and they invited Ted Owens to come to England to end the drought there. And when I arrived in England, I had friends who said to me, "If you want to get your picture in the front page of the London Times, all you have to do is walk down Piccadilly Circus carrying an umbrella. People will think you're crazy and they'll take your picture and you'll be in the front page of the newspaper."

• 49:06Speaker 01

  And so, the day that Ted Owens arrived in England, it began raining and pouring so bad it shut down the, what they called the tube, the subway system in London. And a few days later, the newspapers said drought is over. Just like that. Wow. And so I met him at this conference and we became friends. And that's when I initiated a research project with him that ran until his death in 1987.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  And I collected, I think about 160 examples of this sort of demonstration that he did over and over and over again to try to prove to people that he had these abilities and that they were real and that they could be very useful.

• 50:00Danny Jones?

  What was the most compelling evidence that you were able to come up with about him?

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Well, when I went through the files, one of the things that really caught my eye was the fact that he said he could make UFOs manifest. And there were eyewitness testimony from police officers who said, yes, Ted Owens said he would cause a UFO and I saw it. And so I said, could you do that for me? And he said, yes, he would. He would create a demonstration in the San Francisco Bay area where I lived. It would be within, he said, I'll make three UFO sightings within 100 miles of San Francisco. And you will know that I caused them.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  And as the process evolved, I was in touch with him a lot. One day, I'm on the phone with him and he said, I feel it coming really strong. He said, this is going to be one of the biggest sightings ever. He said, it will be seen by hundreds of people. It will be photographed and the photograph will be published on the front page of one of your local newspapers. And that happened four days later. Exactly.

• 51:18Danny Jones?

  What was the date and can we find it online?

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, well, if I recall correctly, it was the Berkeley Gazette.

• 51:27Danny Jones?

  Berkeley Gazette.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  It was the newspaper. I think the photo was December 12th, 1976. I hope I have that correct.

• 51:38Danny Jones?

  So, and we would search for like UFO sighting or UFO.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know how you're going to search it. I can send it to you if you want.

• 51:48Danny Jones?

  Steve can find it.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you can find it, that would be good. It was on the front page. And here's what happened. It's a more complex story, but the art department at Sonoma State College, as it was then known, it's now Sonoma State University.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Sponsored a, an exhibit of a very unusual art form where there was a pilot named Steven Poleski, who had a small airplane with smoke trailing out the back, and he's making designs in the sky, and this is his art form. Mm-hmm. And so the whole art department is out there with their cameras, and a UFO shows up right in his airspace. So it's seen from the air and from the ground, it's photographed and videotaped. The photograph was published on the front page of the Berkeley Gazette, as Ted Owens

• 52:47Speaker 01

  had told me, and the videotape was broadcast on the Channel 9 Evening News, KQED, in San Francisco.

• 52:56Danny Jones?

  What did the UFO look like?

• 52:57Speaker 01

  It was lozenge shaped, it was about, I don't know, 30 feet.

• 53:02Danny Jones?

  Like a Tic Tac?

• 53:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, similar, and...

• 53:05Danny Jones?

  What color?

• 53:10Speaker 01

  I don't recall that a color was specified offhand, but I have to, there you go.

• 53:16Danny Jones?

  That was a tough one, alright, we got it.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:19Danny Jones?

  Can you punch it on it?

• 53:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:21Danny Jones?

  Oh, I've, I got, I think I found a more higher resolution of this specific image. Yeah, that doesn't look like anything.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Well, that, you see, what I'm pretty sure you're looking at is the airplane itself.

• 53:34Danny Jones?

  Oh, okay, with the smoke, that's the guy with the smoke.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  With the smoke, trailing out the back. When I have reviewed the videotapes, I have reviewed the photograph, it's not at all clear to me that a UFO actually showed up.

• 53:46Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  But I've also interviewed the witnesses, who insist that it did.

• 53:50Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  So, it's, it's a little more peculiar, in terms of understanding what actually happened, but Ted Owens...

• 53:59Danny Jones?

  Okay, yeah, that's the plane, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  There it is, right on the front page.

• 54:03Danny Jones?

  Let's read what it says, "Aerial Artist UFO Encounter," what is the little fine text underneath? Uh, where the fuck are you? Right there, yeah, right there. Steven Poleski, who, wind permitting, creates aerial art by flying a stunt plane overhead while leaving trails of colored smoke, was startled Wednesday by performing over Cal State Sonoma. Poleski suddenly became aware of a circular white object only 1,000 feet away. The event was also captured on Channel 9 TV cameras, and Poleski said videotape reruns check out and confirm the existence of a curious co-pilot in the sky. Poleski, a visiting professor at UC Berkeley, may have attracted a vast new audience for his

• 54:46Danny Jones?

  unique art forms. Interesting. Wow. And this is right, how long after the guy told you there was gonna be sightings?

• 54:57Speaker 01

  Four days.

• 54:58Danny Jones?

  Four days. So were there any, like,

• 55:03Danny Jones?

  repeatable experiments that you could do with him, that you could document and test?

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Very difficult.

• 55:12Danny Jones?

  It's not, because this doesn't pass scientific method muster, right?

• 55:17Speaker 01

  No, but what I did attempt to do, because I had very little time, I said, can you do this for me? And he said, yes, starting now, for the next 90 days, I'm gonna do this. So I thought I'd try to create a control group.

• 55:30Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  Because I had no idea how many UFOs would appear in any 90-day window within 100 miles of San Francisco.

• 55:38Danny Jones?

  Exactly.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  So I took San Diego, which is a city of similar size on the west coast.

• 55:45Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  And similar social environment. And I had friends who were students in the physics department there. And what I did to test, I sent letters out to all the law enforcement agencies within 100 miles of San Francisco. I had the San Diego people send letters out to all the law enforcement agencies within 100 miles of San Diego as a way of comparing. And we actually didn't get three sightings, as Owens had promised, we got two in the San Francisco Bay area. In San Diego, they got none. So there, you know, it was a semblance

• 56:25Speaker 01

  of trying to impose as many scientific controls as possible. But when you're dealing with a character like Ted Owens, it's usually not possible because he-

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Liked to see himself, he called it the Owens effect. He hoped people would use that like the Geller effect for bending spoons. But his idea was that just as you can bend a spoon with your mind, you can affect large scale systems. So he tended to focus in on droughts, on UFOs, on power blackouts, hurricanes, tornadoes, heat and cold spells, large scale systems like that. They're very difficult to evaluate statistically. It's not like a clean laboratory experiment.

• 57:14Danny Jones?

  Right. Yeah, you can't measure it in a lab. It's not repeatable.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Well, he did repeat the demonstrations. I have documents for 160 some of them. And I would say offhand that roughly two thirds of them worked out the way he said they would. And very unusual things happened and that probably had to just my intuitive sense, maybe probability of happening of 1% or less.

• 57:48Danny Jones?

  So did you ever do any experiments with him, like bringing in a box with something in it? Like, tell me what's in this box?

• 57:54Speaker 01

  No.

• 57:55Danny Jones?

  Or like, like in Annie's book, she talks about they suspended something off the ceiling, like I suspended a, a flat platform from the ceiling.

• 58:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:02Danny Jones?

  And they would place things on top of it and they would have to go out of body to go figure out what it was.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  Sure. Those are interesting experiments, but they're different than the things that he claimed to be able to do. I convened a meeting of researchers, J. Allen Hynek showed up and many other researchers to try and get the scientific community behind doing some serious testing with Ted Owens. J. Allen Hynek, who was very familiar with the case, said, I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole. And the reason is because the phenomenon he produces come out of the unconscious and they're unpredictable and

• 58:48Speaker 01

  Not into it. So I wasn't, you know, I was a graduate student at the time doing this kind of research. One of my professors at Berkeley, a parapsychologist, resigned from my committee because I was engaged in looking at UFO phenomenon.

• 59:06Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 59:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:08Danny Jones?

  Uh huh. Why would they do that?

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Because they believed that UFOs and parapsychology should not mix. And there are still parapsychologists today who hold to that belief that, you know, it's like we've got one paranormal science and we shouldn't mix it with another one because it would be too difficult or too controversial.

• 59:29Danny Jones?

  Hmm. What do you think about UFOs?

• 59:34Speaker 01

  I think the evidence is overwhelming that they've been around for a long time, probably going back to ancient times. I think, as you expressed earlier, the hypothesis that they could be time travelers from the future. I think that's a very viable hypothesis.

• 59:52Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it's my favorite one.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  But we, we don't know. It's a mystery. And you referred to Jeffrey Kripal earlier. It turns out I interviewed him last week.

• 1:00:02Danny Jones?

  Oh, no way.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and as he points out, he said, from his point of view, the purpose of these phenomena is simply to push us outside of our belief system. Whatever our belief system is, it's going to provoke us to look at things from a different angle.

• 1:00:22Danny Jones?

  Hmm. It's interesting to see how the media and the government tries to play with this thing.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:29Danny Jones?

  You know, when you have all this stuff in the, in the press and legacy media and you have people like this Grush guy and this Lou Elizondo guy.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:40Danny Jones?

  Come out and do all these podcasts and publish these books and. It's just, I'm very, very, it makes me more skeptical. And I think I'm speaking for a lot of people when I say that. I feel like, and I've said this many times before. I feel like with the, the, the trust for the government in the US right now. If the government was to come out and say aliens are here, these UFOs are from this Zeta Reticuli, whatever you want to call it, planet, and we made a deal with them. I think there would be probably a very, very large percent of people that say, that basically do a 180 from believing it to not believing it because, just because the government would admit it. I think, I think that's very likely.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  I don't know what to say about trust for the government. I tend to be more trusting.

• 1:01:31Danny Jones?

  You do?

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  I, I do personally.

• 1:01:35Danny Jones?

  You, you went through the Vietnam War.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that's right. I went through the Vietnam episode where, where people said, don't trust anyone over 30. That, that was the, the way we thought back in, in those years.

• 1:01:49Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  So I have come to appreciate that as bad as the government might be, what are the alternatives? The various, well, for example, let's talk about the media. Mainstream media has a very bad reputation.

• 1:02:06Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  And the, and the right.

• 1:02:07Danny Jones?

  Nobody trusts it.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  It's, well.

• 1:02:09Danny Jones?

  Except for some people, some, my mom trusts it still.

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  I trust it.

• 1:02:13Danny Jones?

  You do?

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  As compared to the alternative, yes. I have a cousin who was a reporter for the New York Times, Steve Roberts. And it was Cokie Roberts' husband. And he put it this way, he said, let's take the Drudge Report as an example of the alternative media. The Drudge Report is very proud of the fact that their articles are 85% accurate. He said that would never be acceptable in the New York Times. Eighty-five percent. That's that's just sloppy journalism. So as as much as we can question the mainstream sources, whether it's the government or the scientists or or the

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  media, the alternatives are even less reliable.

• 1:03:01Danny Jones?

  I don't think so. I disagree. I think the alternatives are people like yourself and people like me and podcasters who just like to talk to people about stuff and and there's no, there's no sort of incentive to not talk about things because of advertising. Like, I don't, I don't shy away from topics because I have an advertiser. I don't talk about certain things because other people are, I don't have like editors or producers that are telling me what and what not to talk about. Um, you know, you have thing like, I think it came out a couple of years ago that I was like eighty to ninety percent of um, the advertising

• 1:03:44Danny Jones?

  dollars that came in through MSNBC and CNN and Fox were from pharmaceutical companies during the pandemic. So like, what is your incentive to question anything when literally ninety percent of your money is from the pharmaceutical companies? And, you know, especially, and then I had a friend, Jack, who was a former Army Ranger and was, he's a self-published independent journalist who was doing a story on the Ukraine war. And he was doing a story on how the CIA was working with a um, a NATO ally to conduct sabotage operations inside Russia. So they're blowing up ammunition's cargo banks, blowing up railroads

• 1:04:27Danny Jones?

  and all this stuff. He spent like probably six to eight months on the story. And he was had lots of very credible sources in the military, retired CIA officers who confirmed all this. He had did all his work, crossed all his Ts, dotted dotted all his Is, and he was working with an editor out of one of the top three pub publication newspapers in the country. And they were going back and forth throughout the whole process like this is great. They were getting ready to launch it and I think it was in December they planned on launching it, hitting the button to publish the thing. And right before they went to publish it, the editor of this publication said, okay, the final step is we need to get a sign off from the deputy director of CIA. So he's like, okay.

• 1:05:12Danny Jones?

  So they get on a three-way call with the deputy director of the CIA and he says, uh, I completely deny everything that's in here. This is false. So Jack, my friend who was publishing it says, okay, I guess that's, that's fine. If you deny it, we'll put, we'll include that deputy director completely denies everything that I've said in this article. Instead of publishing it, this, the editor of the publication says they have an off the record agreement with the CIA and the deputy director. So if he denies it, we can't publish the article. So if you have the government controlling what you, what, what independent, what journalists

• 1:05:57Danny Jones?

  can put stories out, then, then what is that? That's not journalism. That's the opposite of journalism.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  Well, I can well imagine that an article of that sort has all sorts of geopolitical implications. It could lead to war. For, for all I know, there might be.

• 1:06:15Danny Jones?

  Sure. Sure. And that was his argument. That was the deputy director's argument that I could, it could, it could, it was bad for national security.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:23Danny Jones?

  But that's a slippery slope.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:25Danny Jones?

  That's a very slippery slope.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:27Danny Jones?

  You could say anything's a hindrance to national security, you know?

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  Well, I agree with you.

• 1:06:31Danny Jones?

  That's why Julian Assange is where, where he is right now.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  That, that it's a good idea to have conversations about.

• 1:06:37Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  Any topic.

• 1:06:39Danny Jones?

  Yes, totally.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  But that's not the same as, as subscribing to the viewpoints of. People with whom you're having those conversations, I certainly get the impression from you that you you're willing to talk to all kinds of people.

• 1:06:53Danny Jones?

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  But you don't necessarily buy what they're telling you.

• 1:06:56Danny Jones?

  Right, totally.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:58Danny Jones?

  So, so, yeah, like, I think from from my perspective and and just in general, I don't think that these these legacy media outlets are gonna are gonna survive much longer. I think it's I think it's similar to what happened with newspaper. I think they're they're eventually gonna die out, and I think that independent journalism, podcasts, stuff like that is gonna rise up and and take over. And I think people trust that more. I mean, you can see that with this this last election. The guy, the guy who won went on every single podcast known to man, including the biggest one, and the candidate who lost didn't. She went on like two podcasts. So it's like, if if a podcast, I think it's mainly with young people, too. I think there's a there's an

• 1:07:40Danny Jones?

  age group. I think a lot of boomers still trust in legacy media. Like, my mom is a great example. All she watches is television, and she believes everything she hears on the television. She and and with those with the with that kind of media, you don't you don't hear any arguments to anything, right? It's kind of like a it's kind of like a an echo chamber. You and with with social media and with pocket with conversations like this, you can get a back and forth, a disagreement, a counterpoint to something. And, you know, I think that that has a lot to do with why people trust this independent media so much more, especially young people.

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's healthy that these conversations are happening. I know that in in my field of parapsychology, we're pretty much excluded from from the mainstream of Yeah. government, education, science, almost all mainstream institutions. And it's a shame because there's 150 years of solid empirical evidence.

• 1:08:36Danny Jones?

  Right, right. Is it empirical evidence, though?

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:08:39Danny Jones?

  Do you think CIA or the government or the military is still doing this kind of stuff, still spending money on this? David Morehouse seems to think so.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  Well, I think there's good reason to think so. And every time that I have a chance, I ask people who have been involved in the government what they think. And and I hear different things. Ed May, who we've referred to earlier, I asked him this question recently, and he said he doesn't think so because there are so many more effective ways these days of gathering intelligence that we don't need.

• 1:09:11Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  Remote viewing.

• 1:09:13Danny Jones?

  That makes

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  On the other hand, it was very useful in circumstances where none of the conventional methods were available. And I personally have to think that if the government isn't doing it, it would be a mistake on their part. And I also happen to think that, given the social controversy and the fact that if they do it publicly, there's going to be all sorts of hoo-ha about, you know, this is the work of the devil and so forth, that it's better for them to keep it secret.

• 1:09:50Danny Jones?

  Right. Yeah, totally. Yeah, there's, I mean, there's so much stuff that's secret that you don't hear about until 20 years after they start doing it. Like, another thing Annie wrote about when her DARPA book was like, the stuff that they're doing does never comes out to the public and for another 20 years. Like, it's not, comes, doesn't come out to consumers for 20, like, for example, Elon Musk's Neuralink, the chip that he's putting in people's brains to help them recover from paralysis, or, you know, eventually, if you extrapolate into the future, imagine what it could be used for. But she claimed in her research that they've been experimenting that with, on that with soldiers since the early 90s. So, so, and I think that's where most of the money goes, too, right? A lot

• 1:10:34Danny Jones?

  of the, a lot of the budgets, these black, dark budgets, the black budgets that you don't see about, it's not reported to Congress, goes to the stuff that has to be kept, kept secret for national security reasons or whatever, to go towards this stuff. Because the most money goes, that the most money that gets put into technology and innovation is for war. Right?

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. I can tell you, parapsychology got the tiniest little pittance of that $20 million over 20 years is not a lot of money for the government.

• 1:11:05Danny Jones?

  Right. The way David Morehouse was explaining this to me was, there's actually

• 1:11:15Danny Jones?

  There were experiments done, or, you know, when they did the remote viewing programs, he explained, he laid it out beautifully how they do it, basically how they sit down, they have the person sit down, they don't tell them anything, and they basically give them like some coordinates and ask them specific questions about what they're experiencing, and they were able to determine whether or not they were being accurate or not, and apparently they were, a lot of the times, a lot of the people were.

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:43Danny Jones?

  And you, so did you ever do anything like this specifically?

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  Yes, when I went to SRI International in February of 1976, I did a classic remote viewing protocol, it was one in which they had the outbound experimenter, who happened to be a friend of mine, Elizabeth Rousher, was a physicist, and she went off to a location at random, they had a list of a hundred or more target locations, and they get into the car, they roll some dice, they choose at random an envelope from the list of targets, and they go to that location.

• 1:12:21Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  And so, I'm sitting inside of a Faraday cage, which is an electrically shielded room in the Radio Physics Laboratory at Stanford Research Institute, and so no radio signals can get in and out, if I had a walkie-talkie, they couldn't have signaled me.

• 1:12:43Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  To let me know where they were. It's also an advantage because it's quiet, in the sense you don't have any electronic noise.

• 1:12:52Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:12:52Speaker 01

  That might otherwise interfere with your neural functioning. So, I'm in the room, and what I imagined that I saw, looked to me, and I drew a picture, I thought it was a rack of clothing at Macy's department store. And that's what we would call in the field of remote viewing analytical overlay. I had an image, I drew a picture of it, but then I misinterpreted it. If you, the actual target happened to be a highway overpass over Highway 101.

• 1:13:27Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  In Palo Alto, but if you took my picture of all these hangars coming off of a clothing rack and hold it up next to the picture of the highway overpass that had a cyclone fence surrounding it, they were identical. My drawing matched the target perfectly, even though I totally misinterpreted it. And this is often how remote viewing works. So we tell people who are doing remote viewing, don't try and interpret what you see, just report the raw sensations to try to get as directly to the impression as possible without

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  any interpretation, because the mind is always trying to interpret and can easily misinterpret things. They were nowhere near Macy's department store.

• 1:14:18Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Do you think that this is an ability that everybody has, or that it's only only manifests in certain people?

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  I would say by virtue of being a sentient human being, everybody has it. I would say this. Earlier you were talking about why you disbelieve that psychic functioning could be real. You had a skeptical attitude, but the truth of the matter is from the materialist perspective, we shouldn't be conscious at all.

• 1:14:50Danny Jones?

  What do you mean? Oh, just looking at the human body.

• 1:14:52Speaker 01

  Just looking at the human body as a machine, there's no reason for consciousness. Conscious or no explanation. How do you take dead matter, billiard ball-like particles bouncing around and get conscious experience?

• 1:15:10Danny Jones?

  That's a good point.

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  It's called the hard problem of consciousness and philosophy, and it's never been resolved.

• 1:15:16Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  But it's an artificial problem. The problem only exists if you take a materialist perspective and say that, you know, the the foundation of all that is real are atoms and molecules and protons and electrons bouncing around each other like inert billiard balls. You could also take the perspective that other philosophers have taken called idealism, that actually, reality is based on consciousness.

• 1:15:49Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  Rather than matter.

• 1:15:53Danny Jones?

  Have you ever, there's a, um, there was a theory that we've talked about on this podcast many times. There was a guy, Chardon. You heard of Chardon?

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  Théard de Chardon.

• 1:16:02Danny Jones?

  Yeah, sure. He had a theory about sort of like a universal consciousness that exists.

• 1:16:08Speaker 01

  The new sphere.

• 1:16:09Danny Jones?

  The new sphere.

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:10Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Can you explain that? I'm rusty on it.

• 1:16:13Speaker 01

  Well, in some ways, people think of him as a materialist. You could almost say that the the satellites that we have, all the electronic communication, the internet is part of the new sphere.

• 1:16:25Danny Jones?

  Okay, yes. Yeah, that was a good way. It's a good analogy for what he, the way he, because there's, there's, I think there was, there was examples in history or studies that were done where like a primate on one island would discover one thing at the same time that a primate on like an island on the opposite side of the world would figure something out.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:44Danny Jones?

  Right? And the idea is that they're connected somehow consciously with a but like in this theoretical layer of consciousness that exists around us and we're just tapping into it.

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  There was a researcher named Rupert Sheldrake who developed that idea. He called it the morphogenetic field that connects all conscious beings and.

• 1:17:05Speaker 01

  A biologist named Lyle Watson wrote a book called The Hundredth Monkey, which they talked about the monkeys on some Pacific islands learned how to take rocks and crack open coconuts.

• 1:17:18Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:17:18Speaker 01

  And as soon as they discovered that this could be done, another island with similar monkeys hundred miles away began doing it.

• 1:17:28Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  As if the the skill somehow was communicated telepathically.

• 1:17:32Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah, there's definitely something to that.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:36Danny Jones?

  There's something to that, you know, it's it's a it's almost impossible to measure. And it doesn't like, how do you explain that through physics? Right? Like, you you can't.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  That's right. So, well, you can, if you think about it, and I'll give Jack Sarfatti some credit for thinking about quantum entanglement.

• 1:17:57Danny Jones?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  As a way because because quantum entanglement does suggest that everything is interconnected. We're not separate from the most distant galaxies.

• 1:18:10Danny Jones?

  Right, right. Yeah. The multi worlds theory, and this somehow connects to time travel in some weird way. There there's the the block universe. Right?

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  Well, there are these all these different theories, the multi many worlds theory, the block universe theory are all separate. I think relatively unrelated methods to account for what you could call the great mystery.

• 1:18:39Danny Jones?

  Yes. So is the block universe consistent or compatible with quantum entanglement?

• 1:18:47Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:18:47Danny Jones?

  No, the block universe is not consistent.

• 1:18:49Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I'm not a physicist, but the block universe came out of Einstein's theory of relativity. And the idea of quantum entanglement comes out of quantum theory.

• 1:19:00Danny Jones?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  They're both really good theories. They both make excellent predictions, uncannily excellent predictions. But they're incompatible with each other. And that's that's the big mystery of physics right now. How do you reconcile relativity with quantum physics? So far, nobody's been able to do it.

• 1:19:24Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I think, you know, like, like we were talking about earlier with the Michael Masters theory on on time traveling humans like the way and then like with like how that works in, I think that works in the block universe in a way to where like if we could figure out backwards time travel or with the way he started it out was like if we wanted to go to another star like we want to leave our solar system rocket time the way we're traveling we travel close to the speed of light on earth time travel is like at a thousand times a thousand X right so like if we're traveling from one edge of the universe to the other

• 1:20:03Danny Jones?

  it takes us like at light speed forty four years something like that and on earth that would end up being like forty million years or something crazy

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  thirteen point eight billion

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• 1:21:14Danny Jones?

  Thirteen point eight billion years?

• 1:21:16Speaker 01

  That across in fact may probably more than that because that was the original Hubble dynamic diameter of the universe, but it's expanded since then. But from the point of view of a traveler on on a spaceship

• 1:21:32Danny Jones?

  At light speed.

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  At light speed, it take no time at all.

• 1:21:35Danny Jones?

  Right, it would take it take a couple decades probably.

• 1:21:37Speaker 01

  No, zero.

• 1:21:39Danny Jones?

  Really? Can you Google that? How many? See, how long would it take to travel from one, from uh, across the universe at light speed? Not a, not the universe, across, uh, yeah, across the uni- the galaxy, right?

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  Oh, the galaxy.

• 1:21:52Danny Jones?

  The Milky Way.

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  The Milky Way is approximately 120 light years across, so.

• 1:22:01Danny Jones?

  120 light years? Okay, so that'd be 120 years?

• 1:22:04Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, from, from the point of view of somebody on Earth, or 100, I'm sorry.

• 1:22:10Danny Jones?

  100,000, okay, maybe they were talking about the solar, how long would it, how many light years across is our solar system?

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  One.

• 1:22:19Danny Jones?

  That's one light year?

• 1:22:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:22Danny Jones?

  Two light years? Okay, anyways, I don't know what, he was explaining that rocket time, like if we were to travel across, say, halfway across the Milky Way, right? So 50 years, roughly?

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  No, the Milky Way is 100,000 light years, so halfway across, be 50,000.

• 1:22:40Danny Jones?

  100,000, okay, right.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  50,000 years from the point of view of somebody on Earth, watching it.

• 1:22:47Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  But from the point of view of someone on a spaceship traveling at the speed of light, which is an impossibility, incidentally.

• 1:22:55Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  Photons can travel at the speed of light because they have no mass.

• 1:22:59Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  So, but if you're a photon, it would take no time.

• 1:23:03Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  And so from the point of view of a photon, time and space don't exist.

• 1:23:09Danny Jones?

  Right. So like, if somebody was to try to go, if hypothetically, we figured out light speed, close to light speed travel.

• 1:23:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:16Danny Jones?

  The person doing that trip would have to kiss their, everyone they know goodbye. They would have to kiss the world goodbye because the time they got back, the world would have surpassed so many years, it would be gone. Like it would be millions of years or hundreds of thousands of years in the future on Earth.

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:23:31Danny Jones?

  So like, the point he was making is that it would be futile to go on a trip like this, right? To go on a light steep speed trip out into the galaxy, because, let's say after 10 years of rocket time on that trip, being, human beings on Earth would have evolved so much that they would have figured out how to get there with a full belly full of breakfast. They would pull up right next to him and then they would have had a left that morning, like, what have we done? We've wasted 10 years of our life and the human beings have evolved.

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, if we get faster than light travel, perhaps.

• 1:24:05Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  That's the case. But you know, there's the twin paradox. You could have two twins and one travels at the speed of light. Some distance comes back, isn't any older. The other twin could be

• 1:24:18Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  decades older.

• 1:24:20Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Yeah. So if we were going to try to do that, if you wanted to get some scientists or astronauts to go out and do this, it would be nice to have backward time travel first. So they can go back and see their family again, right?

• 1:24:34Speaker 01

  Would be nice. Yeah.

• 1:24:36Danny Jones?

  So if we were to ever figure out backwards time travel, which I don't know how we would do that.

• 1:24:43Speaker 01

  There have been seminars on it held at the University of California at San Diego on what they call retro causality.

• 1:24:51Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  In other words, a particle coming from the present could influence something in the past.

• 1:24:58Danny Jones?

  Yes. Yeah.

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  And so it's a question that physicists are just starting to look at and are taking seriously.

• 1:25:05Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Yeah. And that ties into like precognition, precognitive dreams like that. Yeah. Eric Wargo wrote about that in Time Loops.

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:25:13Danny Jones?

  Um, so, yeah, his theory is like in the future, if there was like some sort of global thermonuclear war and it killed off a lot of humans, um, our species would stagnate and we would be homogenized and we would sort of like, we would basically be, you know, we wouldn't be as diverse as a species as we are now. Like, so, so if there was some sort of cataclysm or like I said, a globe thermonuclear war or something that killed off a lot of species. His crazy theory is, I kind of like the theory. I don't think it's that crazy. If we were that capable, we would go back in time and take DNA from past humans

• 1:25:58Danny Jones?

  to try to diversify our species in the future. Right?

• 1:26:02Speaker 01

  And maybe that's what's going on.

• 1:26:04Danny Jones?

  And if you look at all the cases of the abduction cases from like John Mack.

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:26:10Danny Jones?

  He, a lot of them are, a vast majority of them are like extracting eggs and sperm from the people that are being. Abducted.

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  I don't know if it's a majority or not, but it, but there's many, many reports like.

• 1:26:23Danny Jones?

  Right. Whitley Strieber.

• 1:26:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:25Danny Jones?

  He's a big one. About Betty and Barney Hill. Um, they're like the most famous ones, but there's, there's apparently there's a lot of them.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:26:32Danny Jones?

  And also a lot of them say the, of all the cases, I think that was, were documented by John Mack.

• 1:26:42Danny Jones?

  I think it was like a 70, 30 split between the people who actually asked the beings where they, who they were. 30% said they were from some star system and like 60 or 70% said they were from the future.

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:26:56Danny Jones?

  So that's interesting. And then he's an anthropologist. So what he explained to me was there's this concept called pedomorphism, pedomorphism, where I'm going to try to articulate this the best I can because it's comp, it's complicated. But so he was explaining that in evolution, the farther evolved, uh, the farther evolved, at least for primates.

• 1:27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:22Danny Jones?

  They get the children of the ancestors look more like the adults of the future descendants. Right? So if you look at a baby chimp, it's kind of caught like a bulbous head, sits straight up like this, right? Doesn't, its body is kind of small. It's, it's in more proportion of a human being, of a human being today. When the, when the baby chimp grows up, it's got a smaller, smaller cranium, big muscular body. It's kind of like hunched over. Um, he says that this is something that you can extrapolate into the future of our species, that in a hundred thousand or a million years, full grown human beings are going to look like the toddlers of today.

• 1:28:02Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:28:03Danny Jones?

  And if you, if you look at all those accounts, they've looked like children, those beings.

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  I think it's a very viable hypothesis.

• 1:28:09Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  The inhabitants of UFOs are future humans.

• 1:28:15Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:28:15Speaker 01

  Traveling backward in time. Uh, every, I don't, I don't know of any reason to rule that out.

• 1:28:25Danny Jones?

  Who'd explain the pyramids?

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it might explain a lot of other mysteries.

• 1:28:32Danny Jones?

  A lot of crazy mysteries, right?

• 1:28:34Speaker 01

  Even, I mean, the biggest mystery might be the existence of the human race to begin with.

• 1:28:40Danny Jones?

  Right. Yes. Wow.

• 1:28:44Danny Jones?

  That's deep.

• 1:28:45Speaker 01

  Well, consider, you know, 300,000 years ago or so, there were our so-called primate ancestors. They didn't, from what we can tell, have large brains.

• 1:28:58Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:28:59Speaker 01

  They didn't have speech the way we know it. They certainly didn't have our various scientific mechanical skills. We don't know that much about them, but something changed. Something changed very dramatically. We are nothing like gorillas or chimpanzees, our closest biological relatives.

• 1:29:22Danny Jones?

  And this is, is there, what is the name of this theory that aliens somehow genetically alter? Well, there's, this doesn't tie into McKenna's theory, right?

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  No, it's, there was a fellow named Zachariah Sitchev, I think, who first proposed it. He began looking at the cuneiform writing of the ancient Assyrian people and their descriptions of the gods. And as he interpreted the cuneiform literature, it looked to him as if these gods were actually coming down from some other location and performing genetic experiments on the local population to mix their genes. It's, so now that, that hypothesis is widely disseminated across.

• 1:30:12Danny Jones?

  This is the Anunnaki theory.

• 1:30:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:14Danny Jones?

  Where they came down and created a slave species to terraform the earth.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:30:19Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's a wild one. That's, that's a popular one, for sure.

• 1:30:22Speaker 01

  And as far as I know, it's viable. I can't say that we have strong evidence for it, but, but there's.

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  It does resolve this mystery of how did humans, modern humans evolve out of primates?

• 1:30:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Did you ever talk to Terrence McKenna about the monkey mushroom theory?

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:30:51Danny Jones?

  What's the name of that theory again?

• 1:30:52Speaker 01

  I don't know that it has a name.

• 1:30:54Danny Jones?

  It's called, you know, there's a name for it. Stoned ape theory.

• 1:30:57Speaker 01

  Stoned ape.

• 1:30:58Danny Jones?

  Stoned ape theory. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a, that's probably my favorite one, you know?

• 1:31:05Speaker 01

  That also makes sense. There's every reason to think not just apes, but many other biological creatures like to alter their consciousness in different ways.

• 1:31:16Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I had a, I had a guy in here a couple of months ago from India. And he was explaining to us, Steve, maybe you can remember the name of these monkeys. There's these monkeys that are in India that love to eat psychedelic mushrooms. And he was explaining how they, they act so much like humans where they will only have like, like, they don't have a lot of kids. They stay with, with one mate, right? They don't, they don't go out and find a bunch of mates like other primates do. They, they stick with one mate forever and they only have children with them, a couple of children. And they, they raise them and like a lot of their, the way they live and the things they do in their environment are very, very similar.

• 1:32:00Danny Jones?

  And he, he thinks that they're basically like evolving with the mushrooms in real, like stoned ape theory happening in real time. Can you find the name of that monkey? Do you remember that?

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  I don't remember it.

• 1:32:13Danny Jones?

  That's okay. I'm trying to find it. Sorry. But you did some sort of competition or something with, with that billionaire dude?

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. The Bigelow.

• 1:32:25Danny Jones?

  Bigelow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What was that about?

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  It was to write a 25,000 word essay on the best evidence for survival of human consciousness after permanent bodily death.

• 1:32:41Danny Jones?

  Why did he want to do that?

• 1:32:43Speaker 01

  Well, shortly before he announced the contest, his wife died.

• 1:32:51Danny Jones?

  Oh.

• 1:32:52Speaker 01

  And he also had a son and I think a grandson who had died from suicide.

• 1:33:00Danny Jones?

  Oh, no.

• 1:33:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. So he, he had developed, and I think to be fair, he had had an interest in the afterlife going back a long time. He had sort of pushed it off to the side. But at, at that point in time, his wife had died, his grandson and son had taken their lives.

• 1:33:21Danny Jones?

  Oh.

• 1:33:22Speaker 01

  And his aerospace business had become basically, um, how to put it, the governor of the state of Nevada during the pandemic had declared his aerospace business to be a non-essential business. So that the employees were, I mean, he could have kept them on the payroll, I suppose, but they couldn't come into the factory. So he let the, all the employees go. They were swept up by other companies and in effect, he no longer had a business.

• 1:33:59Danny Jones?

  Oh, no.

• 1:34:00Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:34:01Danny Jones?

  So he, this is, he decided to do this? That's wild.

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think it's a very creative solution.

• 1:34:07Danny Jones?

  Oh, it's super creative. I mean, like, like people that are willing to spend that much money to do something like this, where there's no monetary return, like there's no profit to be found just out of pure creativity and, and, and curiosity.

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:34:25Danny Jones?

  That's, that's really cool.

• 1:34:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:29Danny Jones?

  And what was the, uh, so what was the, how did it work? So he, how did he pick people to do this?

• 1:34:33Speaker 01

  Well, you had to fill out an application in, in order to be qualified to write the essay. He wanted serious people who really understood the field.

• 1:34:45Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:34:45Speaker 01

  And as I recall, there were maybe 1,200 people who filled out application forms. Some 200 of them were accepted to write essays.

• 1:34:56Danny Jones?

  Okay. And how did you get picked? You, you were, you, obviously you filled out an application.

• 1:35:00Speaker 01

  I filled up. Well, here's the interesting thing. I first heard about the, uh,

• 1:35:08Speaker 01

  Competition from Leslie Keane.

• 1:35:11Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:35:12Speaker 01

  Who?

• 1:35:12Danny Jones?

  She worked for the New York Times, right?

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, she was a stringer for, for the New York Times. She'd written articles about UFOs. She had written a book about survival.

• 1:35:22Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  And she said to me, uh,

• 1:35:24Danny Jones?

  Survival?

• 1:35:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:35:26Danny Jones?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:35:27Speaker 01

  She has a book called, I think it's titled Surviving Death.

• 1:35:31Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:35:31Speaker 01

  Or something of that sort. So she was known. In fact, now that I think about it, I heard about the essay and I reached out to her. I said, Leslie, you should enter. You just published a book on the topic.

• 1:35:44Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:45Speaker 01

  And she got back to me and said, no, I'm one of the judges. And, and then she said, you got to listen to this podcast with George Knapp. Uh, because Bigelow was asked, uh, who should enter the competition? And he said, people like Jeffrey Mishlove should enter.

• 1:36:01Danny Jones?

  Who said, George Knapp said this?

• 1:36:03Speaker 01

  No, Bigelow.

• 1:36:03Danny Jones?

  Oh, Bigelow said this?

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:05Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:36:05Speaker 01

  Robert Bigelow said, people who have been studying.

• 1:36:08Danny Jones?

  Oh, so he was a fan of yours?

• 1:36:09Speaker 01

  This material all their lives.

• 1:36:10Danny Jones?

  That's so cool.

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:13Danny Jones?

  Um, all right. So walk me through.

• 1:36:17Speaker 01

  Well, I told you about my experience with Uncle Harry.

• 1:36:20Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:21Speaker 01

  That was sort of the beginning of my essay because it changed my life. And, uh, what I found in going through the literature is that people who have had profound shared death, near death experiences often experience profound life changes.

• 1:36:40Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:36:40Speaker 01

  Example would be Bishop Pike. Uh, I don't know if you remember Bishop Pike. This is in the 1960s.

• 1:36:48Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:48Speaker 01

  He was the Episcopalian Bishop of California.

• 1:36:51Danny Jones?

  Episcopalian Bishop of California. Okay.

• 1:36:55Speaker 01

  Yes. And, and his son died. His son died of suicide. And, uh, he was.

• 1:37:03Speaker 01

  Terribly distraught, and he was in England at the time, meeting with the Episcopalians in England and the English Catholics, and they had a very close relationship with the spiritualists in England. And so his friends said to him, why don't you go and see this particular medium, the name is on the tip of my tongue. And he went, he visited a spiritualist medium who began bringing him very detailed communications from his deceased son, along with the deceased son's godfather, a very well-known theologian, again, the name is

• 1:37:45Speaker 01

  on the tip of my tongue, and so convinced him that these are authentic communications. He resigned as Bishop of California so that he could pursue this further.

• 1:37:57Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:37:59Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  Another case-

• 1:38:01Danny Jones?

  That's profound.

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  A person whose life was changed dramatically, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, very well-known medical doctor who began writing about the stages of death and dying. She got into that field. Well, she had this longstanding interest. And there was a time in her life when it felt like it's not going anywhere for her. She was doing workshops and seminars. She just didn't feel like they were connecting, and she was ready to give it all up. And she was about to tell her supervisor at the University of Chicago that she's going to

• 1:38:40Speaker 01

  change her career direction. And she's sitting there about to speak to him, they're standing in front of an elevator, as I recall, when a woman steps out of the elevator and says to her, may I walk with you to your office down the hall? So instead of resigning, she walks with the woman toward her office, and she recognizes, wait, this woman is Mrs. Schwartz. Mrs. Schwartz is the woman who first informed her about the near-death experience. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, simultaneous to Raymond Moody, was writing about the near-death experience. But Mrs. Schwartz had died 10 months earlier.

• 1:39:24Speaker 01

  And here she is walking down the hall with Elizabeth Kubler Ross. They get to the office and Mrs. Schwartz pleads with her, you must not give up your work. Promise me that you won't give up your work. And Elizabeth Kubler Ross had the presence of mind to say to her, okay, I will make that promise, but would you mind writing that down in a little note for me? And Mrs. Schwartz did, wrote down the note. Mrs. Kubler Ross kept that note. And then Mrs. Schwartz walked out of the office. Elizabeth Kubler Ross immediately stuck her head out the door to see if she could see her walking down the hall. There was no one there.

• 1:40:07Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Wow.

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  And that, you know, another example of a life changing story.

• 1:40:13Danny Jones?

  Right. The one about Elizabeth Crone is pretty bananas as well. She's the one who was walking into her synagogue and got struck by lightning.

• 1:40:21Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah. She became a good friend.

• 1:40:25Danny Jones?

  She left her body and said she went to this crazy garden, this ethereal place. And she had a choice to go to the afterlife or to go back to her body. She chose to go back to her body, which is why that's, that's, that's, that blew my mind, that story. That's funny part two where the, I guess the, um, somebody saw her get struck by lightning and walked it. They ran to the synagogue and said, is there a doctor in the house? But everyone raised their hand.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  And as I recall, it turns out there was a doctor.

• 1:40:53Danny Jones?

  Who was like the best one, right?

• 1:40:54Speaker 01

  For lightning strikes.

• 1:40:55Danny Jones?

  Right, right. What are the chances of that?

• 1:40:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:58Danny Jones?

  Good Lord.

• 1:41:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:00Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And she explained like how she walked in the synagogue and she was like, trying to talk to people and get help or whatever, because she thought she was hurt. But then she realized that no one was like acknowledging her or interacting with her. And then she turned around and saw her body laying on the ground.

• 1:41:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then she noticed she's floating six inches above the floor.

• 1:41:20Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:41:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:22Danny Jones?

  Right. That's so wild. Okay. So, so you wrote about this and you ended up winning this whole competition?

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:41:32Danny Jones?

  That's wild. How much money did you win?

• 1:41:33Speaker 01

  Half a million.

• 1:41:34Danny Jones?

  Half a million bucks?

• 1:41:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:35Danny Jones?

  Wow. You paid cash? Give you a suitcase full of cash?

• 1:41:40Speaker 01

  It was a check.

• 1:41:43Danny Jones?

  Actually, let's pause real quick. I gotta take a leak real quick. All right, Steve? Those are the two biggest questions, you know, that we have is what happens after we die? And are we alone? And you're right on the, you're right on the, on the leading edge of all this stuff.

• 1:41:56Speaker 01

  And where did we come from?

• 1:41:57Danny Jones?

  And where did we come from? Right, right, right.

• 1:42:01Danny Jones?

  So what do you think happened? What do you think is going on here when people are having these near death experiences? And where, where are we going?

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  I, I think that the near death experience represents the early stages of the afterlife.

• 1:42:13Danny Jones?

  The early stages of the afterlife. Okay.

• 1:42:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't think, after all, the people have recently died or nearly died.

• 1:42:22Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:42:23Speaker 01

  And, and so this is like, I think the afterlife could be viewed as a progression. I think there are probably almost infinitely many possibilities over time. But, you know, initially you gotta get oriented.

• 1:42:39Danny Jones?

  Yeah. But what do you think happens after that stage? Where do you think we go?

• 1:42:43Speaker 01

  Well, I think the one obvious possibility is reincarnation. There's good evidence that people do, or can, let me put it this way, people can reincarnate.

• 1:42:53Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:54Speaker 01

  Not that they have to. And not that everybody does, but it's an option. Another option would be to move into other dimensions of, you could call it the super sensible realm of the hyperspace dimensions or dimensions, non-physical dimensions. Another option might be to reincarnate, but not on Earth, on other planets. I think, I think there's every reason to think that all of those possibilities are

• 1:43:29Speaker 01

  open to people depending on their choices and their destiny.

• 1:43:36Danny Jones?

  You believe in God?

• 1:43:37Speaker 01

  Personally, yes.

• 1:43:39Danny Jones?

  What do you think God is?

• 1:43:41Speaker 01

  I think God is the one consciousness that unifies us all.

• 1:43:49Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah, I tend to agree with you. Yeah, I kind of the more and more I think about it, I think that, you know, God is is the universe. You know?

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  Or the universe is is within God.

• 1:44:04Danny Jones?

  Or that.

• 1:44:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:06Danny Jones?

  Yeah, definitely. Um, so after you won this award and you won all this money from Bigelow. After he wrote you the check, what did you, uh? Do you have any like conversations with him about this and like? And is he trying to explore this further or push the boundaries of this?

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  Well, he set up a, uh, an institute called the Bigelow Institute for Consciousness Studies to explore life after death. He invited me to join the board of directors. And, uh, but subsequently, I think, you know, he's an entrepreneur. I think he's moving in other directions. He's creating a new foundation that is taking over that institute. So, uh, I don't know, uh, what's happening. I think, uh, I have to get back in touch with him. He's been very actively involved in politics this year.

• 1:45:01Danny Jones?

  Oh, has he really?

• 1:45:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:45:02Danny Jones?

  Interesting.

• 1:45:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was in fact, uh, one of the

• 1:45:06Danny Jones?

  He's in Nevada, right?

• 1:45:07Speaker 01

  He's in Nevada, yes.

• 1:45:11Danny Jones?

  Um, yeah, what were you saying?

• 1:45:12Speaker 01

  He was, he became a DeSantis supporter.

• 1:45:15Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 1:45:16Speaker 01

  Yes, he gave millions of dollars to DeSantis and then he got, uh,

• 1:45:20Danny Jones?

  Really? That's interesting.

• 1:45:22Speaker 01

  He got fed up.

• 1:45:23Danny Jones?

  Why would, why DeSantis, you think?

• 1:45:25Speaker 01

  Well, I, I, I did have many conversations with him about it. I think he felt that, uh, after the January 6th insurrection that, uh, Trump was not a viable candidate.

• 1:45:40Danny Jones?

  Oh, and he wanted DeSantis to be president?

• 1:45:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then, and then after DeSantis, um, signed the bill to make abortion illegal in Florida after, what, six weeks? Uh, he, he felt that was too extreme and, uh, he switched his allegiance to Trump.

• 1:46:00Danny Jones?

  He did.

• 1:46:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:01Danny Jones?

  Interesting. Interesting guy, man. To have that much money and to be willing just to throw it out at all these crazy ideas and crazy, you know, just, just like dump millions of dollars just into curiosity that's not gonna, not gonna pay you back, you know, like all the people with the most money in the world just seems like they do the things that's gonna make them more money, you know?

• 1:46:24Speaker 01

  Well, I give him a lot of credit. I think that nobody has done more to bring the field of survival research.

• 1:46:33Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:33Speaker 01

  Into public prominence.

• 1:46:34Danny Jones?

  Right, right. I heard, I heard something a while ago. I don't know if it's true, but I heard that um, with all, like, there's a, there's some sort of rule in the FAA where if pilots or commercial pilots or anything see any kind of UFO or unidentified object in their airspace, they have to report it to a private, his private, I think it was his private aerospace company, but not the FAA. Are you familiar with this?

• 1:47:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, sort of. He set up what was called the BaaS, the Bigelow Aerospace Advanced, and something. And then they, he, he was close friends with Harry Reid, who at the time was the head of the US Senate. And he arranged with Harry Reid to begin researching the potential threat to national security that might be imposed by UFOs. For example, if nothing else, aviation accidents.

• 1:47:39Danny Jones?

  Right, of course.

• 1:47:40Speaker 01

  And they set up a program that was funded called OSAP.

• 1:47:47Danny Jones?

  Yep.

• 1:47:47Speaker 01

  Advanced Weapons, I forget the exact initials. And, and it ran through his aerospace company. And they began collecting data. And, and so they reached out to, because nobody was making a systematic effort to collect it. Well, there were some organizations like MUFON that were doing some of it, but they reached out, as you point out, and asked the various aerospace, air traffic control people and so on to report to them.

• 1:48:20Danny Jones?

  Hmm. I had, um, you familiar with James Fox, the filmmaker?

• 1:48:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:48:25Danny Jones?

  Yeah, he was on here and he was telling me he had a meeting with, uh, he actually said it on the podcast. He had a, a lunch with Bigelow. And he said at that lunch, he's told him that he, he knows for a fact that aliens are walking among us.

• 1:48:43Speaker 01

  Bigelow told.

• 1:48:43Danny Jones?

  Bigelow told James that.

• 1:48:45Speaker 01

  James Fox. Well.

• 1:48:46Danny Jones?

  He didn't say he believes it. He says he knows it.

• 1:48:48Speaker 01

  Well, he, he hasn't ever said that to me, uh, although we might've, uh, had, you know, we had many conversations. I've done four interviews with Robert, but, um, it, I think it's likely. I don't have any evidence for it, but I think it's likely.

• 1:49:10Danny Jones?

  Yeah. That's the thing about this whole thing, right? There's no evidence of anything. We don't have any evidence. Like there, this, this, this phenomena hangs out on the edge of human perception and it's almost like it's on purpose.

• 1:49:23Speaker 01

  Yes. Jeffrey Kreipel said that it seems as if it has a, if it has a purpose, it's to kick us out of our habitual ways of thinking that we know anything.

• 1:49:33Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:35Speaker 01

  But, but in terms of evidence, now my field of parapsychology has evidence.

• 1:49:40Danny Jones?

  Yes. More, and far more than the UFOs. We don't have any evidence of you, of, of, I mean, we have, people see UFOs. There's documented accounts, these pilots seeing things, but there's nothing, there's nothing. I mean, even with Grush, right? Came out and I mean, Grush was everywhere for a while, like talking about this. Of these, of these whistleblowers, these people that were in this skiff that, that testified that they knew there was aliens. He even said there was bi- biologics, whatever the hell that means.

• 1:50:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:50:08Danny Jones?

  And then he came out with a story about the football field size UFO that he walked into. It was like a hundred feet. It was like 40 feet long on the outside. When you walk into it, it's as big as a football field. Like I, I just, my brain goes to like, what kind of strategic deception is this? And this guy's, is this, this guy a useful idiot? Um, one of the, and, and another person who Annie Jacobson told me about, and then I got educated on after she told me was, um, Paul Benowitz, his story.

• 1:50:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:50:35Speaker 02

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to build Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal. At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet. Like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone, and including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every

• 1:51:17Speaker 02

  plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage HMO and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 1:51:36Danny Jones?

  And versus I looked, ever since I learned about what happened to Paul Benowitz, that really kind of changed my view on all of this stuff.

• 1:51:42Speaker 01

  In my city of Albuquerque.

• 1:51:44Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah. So he was like huge, uh, a UFO activist, going to all these meetings and these conventions about UFOs, right? And he was seeing these, these things flying above the mountains over an air force base. And Richard Doty, the counterintelligence guy went and said, hey, can we check out what we heard that you're seeing some stuff? Let's see what you're, what you got, right? Just to see like what kind of information you actually had. And he told Paul that he thinks they, I think you're on to something. I think these are aliens. These are UFOs. And the purpose, which makes total sense, was to use Paul as a conduit to poison the well of the UFO community, to tell them that it was UFOs or aliens and that the, you know, we don't know what this is, because that they assumed, and they were probably right, that there was, um,

• 1:52:29Danny Jones?

  Russian spies within that UFO community that were trying to figure out what we were doing, right? Because they suspected that it was technology that the Air Force, the CIA was testing, right?

• 1:52:41Speaker 01

  Well, I think there was. I think, I think there were various experimental aircraft.

• 1:52:46Danny Jones?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:52:46Speaker 01

  And that they didn't want

• 1:52:48Danny Jones?

  Exactly, that's the point.

• 1:52:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:50Danny Jones?

  Right. And that was the whole point of it.

• 1:52:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:52:52Danny Jones?

  So I wonder like, how many people right now, like Grush included, are being Paul Benowitzed?

• 1:52:57Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yeah, we don't know.

• 1:52:59Danny Jones?

  And like a great example of this is this, this gentleman I had on the show. His name's Chris Bledsoe. He's from North Carolina.

• 1:53:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:08Danny Jones?

  And he sees these orbs, these light orbs that fly around.

• 1:53:11Speaker 01

  I know Chris.

• 1:53:12Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And he took me and Steve out to the beach the night before he, we did the show. With him and his family. And he started saying these prayers on the beach, like praying for these things to show themselves. He believes that they're angelic beings. And after like an hour and a half, there were these weird lights that came up off the ocean, would move around in weird ways. They definitely weren't airplanes because we saw airplanes that were coming in, the air traffic that was coming in, landing Tampa.

• 1:53:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:40Danny Jones?

  It was a very specific flight path. There was a couple of specific flight paths that we could see a pattern with the airplanes. They were flashing lights. These were not those.

• 1:53:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:48Danny Jones?

  We got it on video. Steve, you have the video?

• 1:53:51Speaker 03

  Um, ever since I changed computers, I don't.

• 1:53:53Danny Jones?

  We don't.

• 1:53:54Speaker 03

  I had to refine it.

• 1:53:55Danny Jones?

  It's on Dropbox. Um, but anyways, so like, that was wild. But at the same time, I've never, I've never seen anything like that before. But at the same time, I've never stared at the sky for two hours straight.

• 1:54:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:07Danny Jones?

  You know, so is this stuff always there?

• 1:54:09Speaker 01

  Well, it reminds me of Ted Owens saying, you know, there's going to be a UFO that will be photographed and shown on the front page.

• 1:54:16Danny Jones?

  Yes, that reminded me of that.

• 1:54:17Speaker 01

  There's a whole category of people who practice the art and Ted Owens trained people to do this, of summoning lights in the sky.

• 1:54:27Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 1:54:28Speaker 01

  And it is, it's not so different from bending spoons.

• 1:54:32Danny Jones?

  Right, right, right. I guess not. And, and the other thing about him is that there was more people. He was visited by so many people in the military and within NASA and within other.

• 1:54:47Danny Jones?

  CIA, one guy from the NRO, some really shadowy guy in the NRO that was coming to like his kids' football games and stuff like that and like becoming befriending them and trying to figure out, inviting him to the launches at NASA in Cape Canaveral. Your friend John Alexander became good friends with him. And like reinforced his belief that these are angelic beings, that these are angels. We want to know how, we want to figure out how you're seeing these things and like, they've, they've cemented his belief of this stuff. And at the same time, these are people who are trained liars for the US government. Not all of them, but like the CIA, that's typically what the CIA is supposed to do.

• 1:55:31Danny Jones?

  Like, you know, in, when Area 51 was started, they, when the CIA pilots started testing the first jet planes, they had to bring gorilla masks in the cockpit with them. For, in case they came in visual distance of a passenger airplane. If they saw a jet airplane flying, they would put the gorilla mask on. So if they were to go to the bar and say, hey, I saw this fucking crazy jet propelled airplane today and it was a gorilla flying, right, strategic deception. They've been playing these games forever.

• 1:56:03Speaker 01

  That's a possibility. On the other hand, as I know, Chris Bledsoe was also close with Diane Pasulka, who is a religious scholar.

• 1:56:12Danny Jones?

  Yep, and they worked together.

• 1:56:14Speaker 01

  And, and who has pointed out that the biblical descriptions of angels actually are much closer to the phenomenon that he's reporting than to the sort of hallmark card depiction of little cherubs with wings.

• 1:56:33Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:35Speaker 01

  So, so I think that the super sensible realm is populated by all sorts of beings, including angelic beings, including demonic beings, including alien beings of the widest variety. And, and that humans are encountering them. And from what I know of the, which is very little, of the people in the intelligence community who have reached out to Chris Bledsoe, I think many of them have also had similar experiences.

• 1:57:08Danny Jones?

  Yeah, they have.

• 1:57:09Speaker 01

  Because you're working for the government doesn't make you immune.

• 1:57:13Danny Jones?

  Right, right. It's just get. It's just knowing the history of the things that they've done and and how much, how much money and effort they put into strategic deception to keep people ignorant of what's really going on for national security, whatever their explanation and whatever their excuse is.

• 1:57:30Speaker 01

  There's also healings associated with Chris Bledsoe's experience that you can't explain as simply government deception.

• 1:57:40Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's true. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff. He uh, he made a very compelling case on here and I I didn't know what to make of it. Like, no one's ever been able to show me something like that before. And and like there was other things, there was like shooting stars flying above our heads, like like less than a hundred feet above our heads. Like, it was wild.

• 1:58:02Speaker 01

  You know, there was a character in Las Vegas. He called himself the Prophet Yahweh. And he claimed he could produce UFOs on demand. And so some local TV crew said, let's they'll take him up on it. They went to a public park. And he said, he started praying and pointing at the sky and they caught on video some strange object hovering above them.

• 1:58:29Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:29Speaker 01

  In in the sky. I think it's actually a normal human talent that most of us never developed because it wouldn't occur to us that we can. And but it's probably more widespread in the population than we know.

• 1:58:44Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I think too, I think it's probably, I think human beings have

• 1:58:54Danny Jones?

  like

• 1:58:56Danny Jones?

  ESP or whatever you want to call it, like a heightened sense of sensory ability or more senses that we that are suppressed and buried inside of us because of the technological world that we live in.

• 1:59:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:59:11Danny Jones?

  We live in these concrete jungles with artificial light everywhere. And you know, everything is on screens right in front of us and you know, we and when there's this phenomena that happens, I don't know if there's a name for it, but when people go into like the Amazon rainforest for the first time, they take their feet off and they walk around and they're there for a couple hours. It's like something awakens within them where like the the cadence of the crickets or the monkeys or the birds above them like something is being awakened in them. We're like, wow, I kind of know how to sense stuff in a different way now, right? That that they never experienced before, living in

• 1:59:52Danny Jones?

  in our modern technological society that we're accustomed to and that we don't ever escape.

• 1:59:59Speaker 01

  I totally agree with you. I think Alan Watts, a philosopher, wrote a book called The Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are.

• 2:00:10Speaker 01

  We we live in an environment where it's to the economic benefit of

• 2:00:18Speaker 01

  people in business, you know, to have workers and and if the workers all began exploring, you know, their deeper potential, what would what would become of the workforce?

• 2:00:29Danny Jones?

  Right, right. Yeah, it goes against it goes against the world we live in because the world we live in is based on on on money and capitalism and profits and making and inventing new things that are going to just drive the economy. And it's this train that we're on this trajectory that humanity is on right now. It's on this, we're we're here to evolve technology. Right? And it's it works, it works right in line with the the world economy and capitalism, the way we're like, if there's no way to get off the train that we're on right now, the way that we're like, the path that we're on as a society and humanity. It's like, it's like the the direction we're going, it's almost like.

• 2:01:16Danny Jones?

  Not the direction you want to go.

• 2:01:18Speaker 01

  No, you have the transhumanists saying, we're just going to merge with machines. We'll become eventually one big machine. And it's very desoaling.

• 2:01:31Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:33Speaker 01

  And unfortunately, most people are caught up in it. And, you know, to talk about the things that interest me the most mysticism, psychic functioning and the like, there may be one or two percent of the population that gets seriously involved in even appreciating these fields. Most people are too busy just trying to put food on the table.

• 2:01:59Danny Jones?

  Right, exactly. And, um, you know, another guy who talks a lot about the same stuff, who you interviewed, Jacques Vallée, you've had him, you've done, had talked to him a couple of times, right? What did you, what did you make of him?

• 2:02:12Speaker 01

  I have the highest respect for Jacques of LA. I first interviewed him in 1973. And, and I think my most recent interview with Jacques was about, maybe within the last year or so.

• 2:02:26Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow. And these are, and you do, you do a lot of in-person ones too, or do you do mostly remote?

• 2:02:32Speaker 01

  About, well, when I lived in the Bay Area, they were all in person.

• 2:02:37Danny Jones?

  Right, right, right.

• 2:02:38Speaker 01

  People showed up.

• 2:02:39Danny Jones?

  Yes, yes.

• 2:02:39Speaker 01

  And then I moved to Las Vegas and it became about 50/50. Yeah. Most people eventually will pass through Las Vegas. But now I live in Albuquerque. So it's, we're a flyover city.

• 2:02:53Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I find that the in-person interviews are just way more better. They're way, they're way more real and there's, there's like a certain magic you lose through a screen when you're doing a, having a conversation like this.

• 2:03:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:08Danny Jones?

  But, um.

• 2:03:09Speaker 01

  It's true, and I appreciate that you went to some expense to fly me here.

• 2:03:13Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:14Speaker 01

  To be with you in person.

• 2:03:15Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:16Speaker 01

  It makes a difference.

• 2:03:17Danny Jones?

  I appreciate you coming, man. I'm sorry about, I'm sorry the hotel was lousy. Next time, next time we'll get a better hotel.

• 2:03:22Speaker 01

  It was fine.

• 2:03:25Danny Jones?

  It's been fun talking to you, man. Thank you again for your time.

• 2:03:27Speaker 01

  You're welcome.

• 2:03:28Danny Jones?

  And tell folks listening where they can find all of your amazing interviews and search for you on all the platforms.

• 2:03:35Speaker 01

  I'd like to share with people two things, if I may. First is the New Thinking Aloud channel on YouTube, which is newthinkingaloud.com. It's all one word and allowed is A-L-L-O-W-E-D, not A-L-O-U-D. And I'd also think that some of your

• 2:03:56Danny Jones?

  There we go.

• 2:03:56Speaker 01

  viewers may be interested in a new program. The first time in 40 years in the United States, it'll be possible to obtain a higher degree, a master's degree, or a doctoral degree in parapsychology. And I'm working very closely with the California Institute for Human Science to set up that program. We've just launched it and we will be offering these degrees and expanding the program. So if you have viewers who are really serious

• 2:04:35Speaker 01

  about getting engaged in 150 years of empirical evidence about human paranormal experience, this is an incredible opportunity that is now available.

• 2:04:49Danny Jones?

  That's incredible, man. Yeah, and you have the most comprehensive library on your channel of interviews and folks that have been deep in this stuff for their whole lot. Joe McMonigal, Jacques Vallée. Is your, your Terrence McKenna is on this channel? Your Terrence McKenna interviews?

• 2:05:08Speaker 01

  If you dig deeply, you could find it.

• 2:05:11Danny Jones?

  Down there in North of, that's crazy how long you've been publishing. I was watching that one and I was like, I was watching some of your interviews and I was looking at the date published, like 13 years ago.

• 2:05:20Speaker 01

  Well, I found that the Pacifica Radio Archive still has some of my interviews going back as far as 1972.

• 2:05:29Danny Jones?

  Wow. That's fascinating, man.

• 2:05:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:33Danny Jones?

  Really cool stuff. Well, thanks again. I will link all of your stuff below, including your YouTube channel. So people can go check that out. And thanks again, man. I really appreciate it.

• 2:05:41Speaker 01

  My pleasure. And let me just add the California Institute for Human Science. Their website is C I H S dot E D U.

• 2:05:52Danny Jones?

  Cool. I'll link that as well.

• 2:05:53Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:05:54Danny Jones?

  Cool. All right. Good night, folks.

• 2:05:57Speaker 02

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals. No kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal. At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet. Like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone. And including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan.

• 2:06:39Speaker 02

  And the best part is every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save, too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage HMO and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.