The Tiny Bite That Sometimes Kills

Sometimes, even the smallest critters can cause major damage. Thankfully, the one featured in this episode is one that hardly ever does! See if you can guess what animal Wes is talking about before the reveal! Watch here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdgFiUXBzGA ~ Smalls - For a limited time, get 60% off your first order, plus free shipping and free treats for life, when you head to https://Smalls.com/TOOTH Quince - Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use—head to https://quince.com/tooth for free shipping and 365-day returns, now available in Canada. Rocket Money - Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at https://RocketMoney.com/claw Ollie Pet Food - Go to https://ollie.com/tooth and use code TOOTH to get 70% off your first box! LMNT - Receive a free LMNT Sample Pack with any order when you go to https://drinklmnt.com/tooth ~ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:13Jeff Larson?

  Hello everyone, welcome to Tooth and Claw Podcast. We have Wes Larson with us. He has been reading books about animals since he was zero years old.

• 0:24Wes Larson?

  Maybe, child prodigy. Yeah, mom probably read.

• 0:28Jeff Larson?

  Been making stuff up about animals since he was like four, too.

• 0:31Wes Larson?

  That's true. That one's definitely true. I try not to do that anymore.

• 0:36Jeff Larson?

  I'm Jeff Larson. I'm Wes's brother. I'm kind of the brains behind it all. And then we got Mike Smith, who was.

• 0:45Wes Larson?

  Just showed up one day. He just kind of showed up.

• 0:48Mike Smith?

  Ambled on.

• 0:48Jeff Larson?

  Mike's like, Mike's like the glue of the team, you know?

• 0:52Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 0:52Mike Smith?

  Glue guy. That's a high compliment.

• 0:54Jeff Larson?

  He's a glue guy.

• 0:55Mike Smith?

  It's wild that you claim to be the brains of the operation when Wes was reading books when he was zero. You must have some serious intelligence.

• 1:05Jeff Larson?

  I'd say like, Mike's the OJ Simpson of the podcast. Just like, you can give him the ball and he'll, he'll score a touchdown.

• 1:13Wes Larson?

  That's what he's famous for.

• 1:14Mike Smith?

  A little too nice to be cast as the Terminator, kind of thing.

• 1:18Wes Larson?

  The juice. Well, thanks for, thanks for that intro, Jeff.

• 1:21Jeff Larson?

  And Wes, you're like the best of us. So I'd say you're like Tiger Woods.

• 1:27Wes Larson?

  I don't, I can pretend I'm him in that photo.

• 1:35Mike Smith?

  He's going through it, isn't he?

• 1:36Wes Larson?

  I don't, I definitely don't think I'm the best of us, Jeff. I think you or Mike would take that, that award any day. But I appreciate.

• 1:44Jeff Larson?

  You're saying me or Mike's Tiger Woods?

• 1:46Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:47Jeff Larson?

  Who are you?

• 1:48Wes Larson?

  I'm, let's think of someone who doesn't have any kind of.

• 1:51Jeff Larson?

  Maybe Dennis Rodman.

• 1:53Wes Larson?

  Drama around them. Yeah, Dennis Rodman. That's a good one.

• 1:57Mike Smith?

  An affinity for North Korea.

• 1:58Wes Larson?

  Dude, I kind of do, so.

• 2:02Wes Larson?

  All right. Uh, well.

• 2:04Jeff Larson?

  Talk to your daughter.

• 2:05Wes Larson?

  I, does he not talk to his daughter?

• 2:08Jeff Larson?

  Uh-uh.

• 2:08Mike Smith?

  Married to Carmen Electra for eight hours or whatever.

• 2:12Jeff Larson?

  He's, she's on the US women's soccer team and she's like, yeah, I feel like I don't have a dad.

• 2:17Wes Larson?

  Huh.

• 2:18Jeff Larson?

  She's dating someone famous.

• 2:20Wes Larson?

  The closest thing I have to a daughter is my dog Polly and I talk to her all the time.

• 2:25Jeff Larson?

  She's dating one of the best US tennis players.

• 2:29Wes Larson?

  Oh, who's that?

• 2:29Jeff Larson?

  Shelton. Uh.

• 2:31Wes Larson?

  Oh, cool.

• 2:32Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 2:32Wes Larson?

  Shelton. Yeah.

• 2:33Mike Smith?

  Is that, I thought that was the country.

• 2:35Jeff Larson?

  No, I think it's Ben Shelton.

• 2:37Mike Smith?

  Yeah, chew tobacco, chew tobacco, chew tobacco.

• 2:40Wes Larson?

  I think all three of us have spent a fair amount of time driving around this big old country ours, haven't we?

• 2:47Mike Smith?

  Sure thing.

• 2:47Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 2:48Wes Larson?

  Personally, I've driven to all of the states besides Hawaii. Uh, had to fly to that one.

• 2:53Jeff Larson?

  That's why you're the best of us.

• 2:54Wes Larson?

  That's not true. And for a little while, I actually had a job as a long haul trucker and got to visit all those states a second time. And I, I'm curious if you guys feel the same way about this. When I would drive around different parts of the country, I kind of felt like each part of the country had a distinct emotion to it. Like when I would drive through the Rockies, I felt kind of awe struck and alive, uh, really meditative, driving through the desert. Kind of high strung and bored, driving along the eastern seaboard, like when it's just lined with trees. But honestly, like the place that maybe surprised me the most was how I felt driving through the south.

• 3:34Wes Larson?

  Do you guys kind of have the same like reaction when you're on road trips? Like the landscape kind of dictates your emotion to some extent?

• 3:42Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, I think so, especially the desert.

• 3:44Mike Smith?

  Desert mountains are the big one.

• 3:46Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I think it's pretty normal. A pretty normal thing to feel. For me, like in the south, it almost felt like driving through a different country. And I also feel like people in the south just have a really unique flair to them, uh, generally more considerate and just warm. And I have this really nice memory of driving through the swamp in southern Louisiana and listening to CCR like right as the sun was going down. And just feeling like super, like it was a perfect moment, one of those, those like moments, you know? And I kind of wonder if that's how Gaylord Brooks felt when he would drive in the south. Do you guys ever wonder about that? If that's how Gaylord Brooks was feeling?

• 4:27Mike Smith?

  When, when was Gaylord driving around the south?

• 4:29Jeff Larson?

  Now I do.

• 4:30Wes Larson?

  Well, in January of 2017, he was on one of those trips in the South.

• 4:36Mike Smith?

  Yeah, I think he felt the same.

• 4:37Wes Larson?

  Gaylord is a choice to name your kid that. He, I think in 2017, he's like probably in his 50s. But or maybe even early 60s, but still even in like, even if you named your kid in 1960, name him Gaylord. That's a bit of a choice.

• 4:52Mike Smith?

  That's crazy. Yeah.

• 4:54Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 4:55Mike Smith?

  My dad always tells me that, uh, the story of, I think it was his first grade teacher was, her name was Gay Laser. Which?

• 5:04Mike Smith?

  I just.

• 5:04Wes Larson?

  They're building one of those, right, Jeff?

• 5:06Mike Smith?

  Gay Laser?

• 5:07Wes Larson?

  Yeah, he's our conspiracy guy.

• 5:09Jeff Larson?

  Turning the frogs gay.

• 5:12Mike Smith?

  That's such a cool name.

• 5:14Wes Larson?

  That is, that is a really cool name. We had a candy store growing up in the mall called Gaylord's, which was pretty fun.

• 5:20Mike Smith?

  Oh, yeah, I remember. Yeah, that was a, yeah, candy store chain, I think.

• 5:24Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Uh, anyway, Gaylord on, in 2017 was on one of these trips. He's driving an 18 wheeler through some of the southern states. And during a stop in one of those states, and unknown to Gaylord, he picked up a hitchhiker. And for whatever reason.

• 5:39Mike Smith?

  Unknown to him?

• 5:40Wes Larson?

  Unknown to him.

• 5:41Mike Smith?

  All right. Oh, so this is a bit of a mystery, I see.

• 5:44Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it is a mystery.

• 5:45Jeff Larson?

  Black bear story.

• 5:48Wes Larson?

  It was a great white shark.

• 5:52Wes Larson?

  For whatever reason, this tiny stowaway decided to scurry into the cab of his truck and then up his pant leg.

• 5:58Mike Smith?

  That must have been like a Danny DeVito type.

• 6:02Wes Larson?

  It could have been when he was sleeping or when he was driving, but Gaylord was about to have one of the most painful experiences of his life. He didn't feel the two bites. One was on his upper thigh and one on his butt. But as he got back to his hometown, yeah, on his butt, didn't feel it. When he got back to his hometown of Jackson, Michigan, he started to feel some pain and some swelling in those bite areas. Days later, the annoying hot pain turned into a deep throbbing pain, and he began to feel worse and worse physically. When two dark areas that looked like rotting skin appeared on his thigh and his butt, he went to the hospital. And as he was checking himself in, he blacked out at the counter.

• 6:44Mike Smith?

  Wow.

• 6:45Jeff Larson?

  Oh, that's unfortunate.

• 6:48Wes Larson?

  It is unfortunate. Well, it's kind of fortunate because they probably don't make you wait then, you know? They probably just rush you in.

• 6:54Jeff Larson?

  I don't know, because he didn't finish checking in, right?

• 6:58Wes Larson?

  Uh, I think even then they probably just rush you in if you black out.

• 7:02Jeff Larson?

  You gotta check in.

• 7:03Mike Smith?

  Yeah, you gotta write your full last name. You probably missed the last couple of letters.

• 7:07Jeff Larson?

  Just waiting for it.

• 7:08Mike Smith?

  We have no idea who this guy is.

• 7:11Wes Larson?

  Yeah. So Brooks was examined, Gaylord, and when doctors looked at his legs, it looked as though someone had poured acid on him. He was taken into surgery where doctors had to remove large amounts of flesh from his lower buttocks, hamstring, and thigh. And he would go on to say that doctors took all of his flesh, muscle, and meat, and that they cut out tissue up to a half inch from his femur. So they like, kinda destroyed his legs. Like, he didn't really have much left, or his leg. Basically, he said after cutting away all this necrosis, it looked like he had been attacked by a shark, not a tiny invertebrate. He would go on to spend two weeks in intensive care unit, an additional three and a half weeks in the

• 7:53Wes Larson?

  hospital. He had five total surgeries on his leg, and his doctors realigned and reconstructed his remaining leg muscles. He also did plastic surgery. He had to relearn how to walk, and doctors told him that he might always have pain.

• 8:07Jeff Larson?

  Wow. Geez.

• 8:09Mike Smith?

  Do you think he had to relearn how to ride a bike? Cause you never forget that.

• 8:13Wes Larson?

  Uh, probably. Maybe not, though. It's probably easier when you have a big injury like that to ride a bike than it is to walk, right?

• 8:22Mike Smith?

  Imagine if an elephant ever learned how to ride a bike. He would extra never forget.

• 8:27Wes Larson?

  That's true.

• 8:28Mike Smith?

  Or she.

• 8:30Wes Larson?

  Thanks for being inclusive there, Mike.

• 8:32Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 8:33Wes Larson?

  Uh, all right. Now, a second story about a bite from our mystery animal. In rural Tennessee, a mom is staring at the clutter her kids have left in the basement. She's SMHing, Jeff. She's just shaking her head.

• 8:47Jeff Larson?

  It's just these kids.

• 8:49Wes Larson?

  Muttering to herself, "These damn kids."

• 8:51Jeff Larson?

  Yes.

• 8:52Wes Larson?

  Piles of clothes everywhere, toys are scattered all over the floor, and as she cleans up after her kids, who just left to go fishing with their dad, she's already coming up with new chore assignments for all three of them. But while she cleans.

• 9:05Jeff Larson?

  Wheels make it fun.

• 9:07Wes Larson?

  We had wheels, yeah. That's true. What was your least favorite thing to get on the chore wheel?

• 9:12Mike Smith?

  Dishes for me.

• 9:13Jeff Larson?

  I don't know. Weirdly, my favorite was bathroom, though.

• 9:16Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Bathroom was quick.

• 9:18Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 9:19Mike Smith?

  Huh.

• 9:20Jeff Larson?

  I, I don't know. I got satisfaction from cleaning the toilet after I

• 9:24Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 9:25Jeff Larson?

  did paint jobs all week.

• 9:28Mike Smith?

  Ew.

• 9:31Wes Larson?

  Alright, well, we're just gonna move on. Uh, while she cleans, what she doesn't notice is the small flash of motion across the floor near the corner of her daughter's room. Her six-year-old is especially messy, and she wonders how long this bathroom towel has been wadded up in the corner as she throws it into the hamper and dreams of sitting on a beach in Bali with her husband, long before they ever had kids, with a good book and a Mai Tai. Maybe it's because she's daydreaming, or maybe it's just her irritation taking over. But again, she doesn't see the quick brown blur on the floor as she pulls the towel up and away, and she doesn't see it lead to her daughter's discarded rain boot.

• 10:14Jeff Larson?

  They're brown bears.

• 10:16Mike Smith?

  Tiny ones.

• 10:19Wes Larson?

  The next day, the kids have finally managed to complete the list of chores their mom gave them, and when they get back from fishing, all three are ready to go outside and play. Summer just started. The world feels full of possibility, which we've talked about. There's no better feeling than when you're a kid and the summer just started. They go to run outside, but their mom stands in their way and points to the approaching rain clouds, tells them to grab their raincoats and their boots. As the six-year-old girl runs into her room, desperate to keep up with older siblings, she crams her foot into her boot as fast as she can, and she feels a tiny pinch. Almost like there's a pine needle or something in her boot, she thinks nothing of it and she runs out to play with their siblings.

• 11:03Wes Larson?

  And nothing else happens. They have a great summer, and she feels totally fine.

• 11:07Mike Smith?

  What?

• 11:09Wes Larson?

  All right. So those are two stories that feature our animal today. You guys have any guesses what we're talking about?

• 11:16Mike Smith?

  Tiny and brown. John Leguizamo.

• 11:20Jeff Larson?

  I mean, I guess it's some type of spider.

• 11:23Wes Larson?

  It is a spider and it has actually the word brown in its name. So now I know you guys can get it.

• 11:29Jeff Larson?

  Brown recluse?

• 11:30Wes Larson?

  The brown recluse. Yes, we are talking finally about an incredibly feared spider in the US. And one that probably shouldn't be nearly as feared as it actually is.

• 11:43Jeff Larson?

  Hmm.

• 11:44Wes Larson?

  And do you know why that is?

• 11:45Mike Smith?

  Why is that Wes?

• 11:46Wes Larson?

  Well, which of those two stories do you guys guess is more typical of a brown recluse spider bite?

• 11:52Mike Smith?

  Uh, the second.

• 11:52Jeff Larson?

  It's hard to get to someone's butt, you know?

• 11:56Mike Smith?

  That's true. Yeah.

• 11:58Wes Larson?

  Uh, he could have been sleeping though. It's the second one. Uh, most brown recluse bites go pretty much unnoticed. There's maybe a little bit of swelling and pain, a little bit of redness. And then it goes away. Uh, that's how like 90% of these bites play out. And if you just pay attention to the media, you would think that every single bite from the spider is turns into this like big gaping black hole of necrosis on, on wherever you got bit.

• 12:27Jeff Larson?

  Hmm.

• 12:28Wes Larson?

  And there are some.

• 12:29Jeff Larson?

  Are we the media?

• 12:30Wes Larson?

  Uh, we are the media, but we're hoping to be different than the general, the ma- the mass media, mainstream media. Yeah. There are bites from brown recluses that develop into much more. And the symptoms from the first story are incredibly rare, but they can happen. And then there are stories of even worse symptoms, which we are going to talk about. But because this is a complicated animal, a maligned animal, one that a lot of people are afraid of. I kind of want to start with a bit of biology and a bit of explanation about the spider. And I think it's really interesting. Sometimes I think you can tell how sucked into the animal I got by the number of

• 13:10Wes Larson?

  windows I have open in my browser. And I have like 60 windows open right now because I just couldn't read enough about these spiders. There's a lot of stuff we're not going to have time to talk about. But we really are going to get into some interesting stuff. I even read a book. There's a guy who is kind of the the leading expert on brown recluse and he wrote a book called The Brown Recluse Spider. The guy's name is Richard S. Vetter. He's retired now, but the book is incredibly interesting.

• 13:40Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, you. Well, you can afford a house with 60 windows because you did the Dior modeling.

• 13:47Wes Larson?

  I definitely did not get paid nearly enough to afford probably even a dollhouse with 60 windows.

• 13:54Jeff Larson?

  In that mansion.

• 13:54Mike Smith?

  That'd be scary if all 60 of your windows had brown recluses in them.

• 13:59Wes Larson?

  Oh, man.

• 14:00Mike Smith?

  Trying to get in.

• 14:01Wes Larson?

  They probably wouldn't be that scary, actually.

• 14:04Jeff Larson?

  Eat that ass.

• 14:05Wes Larson?

  Just so everyone knows, I do not live in a mansion. My house is 1100 square feet.

• 14:10Jeff Larson?

  Wow.

• 14:11Mike Smith?

  That's a lot. 11,000.

• 14:14Wes Larson?

  Okay, so the media has done this, the spider, a grave disservice. And I don't want people to think that our stories from today are typical of brown recluse bites. And that's why I included that that first story or the second story, because that is a typical brown recluse bite.

• 14:32Jeff Larson?

  If they think they're atypical.

• 14:34Wes Larson?

  That's, yeah, like neurodivergent.

• 14:36Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, like the opposite atypical.

• 14:39Wes Larson?

  Yeah, they're not, though. Yeah.

• 14:41Mike Smith?

  They are.

• 14:42Wes Larson?

  Okay. Wait, I don't know.

• 14:43Mike Smith?

  Kind of a double negative thing going on there.

• 14:45Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Okay.

• 14:47Mike Smith?

  Another thing, I don't want people, this is something I also don't want people to think. John Leguizamo is five foot eight. I didn't realize that. I retract that. That's not short. Yeah, that's not really short at all. So.

• 14:58Wes Larson?

  It's it's a little short. I feel a little short.

• 15:01Mike Smith?

  I just always think of him in The Pest and I'm like, he's just a little annoying guy in that movie, but he's not. I don't know. Five eight's pretty average, right?

• 15:08Jeff Larson?

  I think of him in Romeo and Juliet and he's like. He seems like he's six feet tall in there.

• 15:15Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 15:16Mike Smith?

  Yeah. So pick a different brown, small person.

• 15:20Wes Larson?

  Person.

• 15:21Mike Smith?

  Substitute that into my joke earlier. Cheech. There you go.

• 15:24Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 15:24Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 15:25Wes Larson?

  All right.

• 15:26Mike Smith?

  Luis Guzman?

• 15:27Wes Larson?

  So brown recluses are medium sized spiders. They're generally about a quarter inch to an inch in diameter. They're typically light to medium brown colored and their most distinctive marking is a fiddle shaped mark on their cephalothorax, which is kind of the spider's head. Like if you're looking at a spider, the cephalothorax is what looks like their head. And the neck of that fiddle is pointing toward their abdomen. So it kind of looks like the like curvy body of a fiddle and then the neck of the fiddle points to their abdomen. If you look at pictures of brown recluses, which I definitely advise everyone to do, you can see that fiddle and it's very apparent.

• 16:06Jeff Larson?

  Why do you advise everyone to do that?

• 16:09Wes Larson?

  Because everyone thinks that they see brown recluses in their house or whatever, and they probably don't unless they live in their range, which we're going to talk about in a little bit.

• 16:19Mike Smith?

  That makes sense. Humans are lucky. We have an easier word for head.

• 16:23Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 16:23Mike Smith?

  If we had to say cephalothorax, like when you're doing the final count for like a wedding, it's like, oh, it's like about $800 per cephalothorax.

• 16:33Jeff Larson?

  That's another thing that like wildlife biologists and what are the insect?

• 16:39Mike Smith?

  Entomologists?

• 16:40Wes Larson?

  Entomologists. Yeah.

• 16:42Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 16:43Wes Larson?

  Entomologists.

• 16:44Jeff Larson?

  Just make words harder so that they have a job, you know?

• 16:48Wes Larson?

  They sound smart.

• 16:49Jeff Larson?

  It's like, what could you say spider head?

• 16:51Wes Larson?

  We suck.

• 16:52Mike Smith?

  It's the only reason you have a job.

• 16:56Jeff Larson?

  Cause they're willing to learn all those words.

• 17:00Speaker 03

  Coca-Cola. For the big, for the small, the short and the tall. Peacemakers, risk takers. For the optimists, pessimists. For long distance love. For introverts and extroverts. The thinkers and the doers. For old friends and new. Coca-Cola for everyone. Pick up some Coca-Cola at a store near you.

• 17:30Speaker 04

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop, because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 18:00Wes Larson?

  If a genie gave me three wishes, I'm using one to make Tooth and Claw the biggest podcast in the world, two, to be able to talk to bears, and three, to wish for my cat to live forever. But since genies don't exist, I feed my cat Smalls. Smalls is fresh, human-grade cat food that does so much more than just feed your cat. It helps them live a full, healthy life. Most cat food out there is made with meat byproducts, cheap fillers, and artificial ingredients. Basically, stuff that isn't great for your cat. Big pet food does this because it's cheaper to make. Big pet food, always getting us. But what they save on cost, your cat pays for with their health. Smalls is different. Their fresh recipes are made with at least 80% animal protein,

• 18:42Wes Larson?

  and they're gently cooked to retain all of their nutrients and flavor. They never add fillers or artificial ingredients, and their food is so healthy, the 88% of cat parents say that after feeding Smalls, their cats have better digestion, a softer and shinier coat, and more energy to play, because it's actually good for your cat. Your cat's health and longevity starts with what they eat. Try Smalls and get 60% off your cat's first order, plus free shipping and free treats for life when you go to smalls.com/tooth. One last time, that's 60% off your first order, plus free shipping and free treats for life when you head to smalls.com/tooth.

• 19:24Wes Larson?

  And this isn't an insect. Let's remember that. This is an arachnid. A really unique.

• 19:29Jeff Larson?

  So entomologists won't even look at them.

• 19:31Wes Larson?

  They do actually, but it would be a specific subset of entomologists called arachnologist. Arachnologist, I think. Yeah. Anyway, a really other unique thing about brown recluses that you can notice is they only have six eyes rather than the typical eight that most spiders have. And those six eyes are arranged in pairs. So it kind of gives them the appearance of having like three big eyes on their cephalothorax. I could explain a bit more about how they look, but honestly, the best way to get a feel for them is just to look at some pictures. If you're terrified of spiders, you know, maybe not, but we'll post some to our Instagram too. They're, I think they're a really cool looking spider, but they are a kind of creepy looking spider too.

• 20:16Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 20:17Wes Larson?

  They're found, and this is an important part of all of this. They're found in Nebraska, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Texas, Kansas, Oklahoma, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, kind of Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, and Louisiana. So kind of throughout the Southeast and then up into kind of the Midwest a bit too. Outside of those places, there are maybe tiny populations in some of those states bordering those states like Michigan, Florida, New Mexico. But people that study the spider don't think

• 20:59Wes Larson?

  there's actually like real population in any other state besides the ones I listed.

• 21:05Wes Larson?

  And some of the ones I listed don't really have many at all. Like the states that have a ton of the spider are like Tennessee, Kansas has quite a few. Some of those Arkansas, Oklahoma, those states have a fair amount of brown recluses. Okay, the reason that's important is you do not need to worry about brown recluse spiders if you do not live in one of those states. Sure, it's possible that one could hitchhike to your state, but it would just be one spider, it wouldn't be a population. So the chances of being bitten by the spider are very low. The chances of being bitten by it outside of its range are essentially zero. So don't worry about them if you don't live in those states.

• 21:46Jeff Larson?

  Well, do they have them in zoos?

• 21:48Wes Larson?

  Uh, they might, yeah, but.

• 21:51Jeff Larson?

  So maybe you gotta worry.

• 21:52Wes Larson?

  I, no, I wouldn't worry.

• 21:55Mike Smith?

  Yeah, there's like a Harambe situation with the brown recluse. They have to shoot it.

• 22:02Wes Larson?

  Someone's kid falls in the brown recluse enclosure.

• 22:06Jeff Larson?

  She's trying to protect the kid.

• 22:10Mike Smith?

  They, they make a statue out of it, but it's also just life sized like the Harambe.

• 22:15Jeff Larson?

  It like wraps the kid in a web and then they shoot it. And then, then everyone on the internet's like, no, look, it's just trying to protect him.

• 22:29Wes Larson?

  Okay, this spider is much more active in the warmer months. They're typically found in dark confined spaces, hence the name recluse. This is a very shy spider. There are spiders out there that we've talked about that are kind of aggressive.

• 22:43Mike Smith?

  If you will?

• 22:43Wes Larson?

  Yeah, uh, like the Brazilian wandering spider is a spider that kind of defends itself and is a little bit defensive, if not aggressive. This is not one of those spiders. They just try and get away. They don't want to bite.

• 22:57Jeff Larson?

  So the Brazilians wandering spiders wander a bit and these ones stay more recluse.

• 23:02Wes Larson?

  Yeah, and there's, there's actually, there's a South American variation of the brown recluse called the Chilean recluse, and it's quite a bit more dangerous. We'll probably do an episode on them at some point. But our brown recluse, even though it has some potent venom, it's very shy. Um, so you could have, if you live in its range, you could have a lot of these spiders in your house or your garage or whatever, and you'd never really see them because they are very reclusive.

• 23:29Mike Smith?

  Are these one of the spiders when they mate, the female kill the dude?

• 23:34Wes Larson?

  No, oh, you better believe we're gonna get into mating, Mike, and you better buckle up. You're gonna have to take a cold shower afterwards.

• 23:42Mike Smith?

  Let me know when and I'll start up.

• 23:44Wes Larson?

  Okay. They are predatory, like all spiders, and they mostly eat small insects like crickets or silverfish. Silverfish are that kind of weird looking insect with all the little legs that you sometimes see in your basement or whatever. They can eat stuff bigger than them too, and will sometimes eat other spiders and even other brown recluses. They actively hunt their prey, and with smaller prey like crickets, they'll subdue it while injecting venom. So they'll like jump on it, subdue it like a wrestler would, and inject venom.

• 24:15Jeff Larson?

  Smart.

• 24:16Wes Larson?

  With bigger prey, they'll kind of do this little standoff until they find a weak spot, then they jump forward, quickly bite and inject venom, and then wait for it to take effect.

• 24:26Jeff Larson?

  Ah.

• 24:27Wes Larson?

  And then in the book that I read, the author, who again is one of the premier recluse experts, says that if their prey is especially big, sometimes the brown recluse will ride it like a bucking bronco, biting it until paralysis sets in, which is pretty cool.

• 24:42Jeff Larson?

  Maybe like a big grasshopper or something?

• 24:45Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 24:47Wes Larson?

  That is actually what he used as an example, a big grasshopper. So.

• 24:51Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 24:51Wes Larson?

  That's cool. Good one. Point, a point for Jeff.

• 24:54Jeff Larson?

  Well. That sounds fun.

• 24:56Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 24:57Jeff Larson?

  You think they like, watch each other do it?

• 25:00Wes Larson?

  Maybe.

• 25:01Jeff Larson?

  Score it?

• 25:01Wes Larson?

  Riding something big.

• 25:02Jeff Larson?

  That's it. Like bull riding, you know?

• 25:04Wes Larson?

  Like Mike's mom. Yeah.

• 25:05Jeff Larson?

  You got, what'd you say?

• 25:10Jeff Larson?

  You gotta ride it for 10 seconds in whatever grasshopper takes the most.

• 25:15Wes Larson?

  Yeah, they probably do.

• 25:17Jeff Larson?

  That'd be cool. That's probably where we got the idea.

• 25:20Wes Larson?

  Eight seconds though for us.

• 25:22Jeff Larson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:23Mike Smith?

  That's a rodeo I'd go to.

• 25:26Wes Larson?

  They're long-lived spiders.

• 25:27Mike Smith?

  That's a rodeo John Hammond would go to. He's all like watching fleas.

• 25:31Wes Larson?

  That's true.

• 25:34Wes Larson?

  God, I always disassociate during that part of the movie.

• 25:36Jeff Larson?

  Fun to bet money on.

• 25:37Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Flea trapeze, a wee flea trapeze.

• 25:43Wes Larson?

  They're long-lived spiders, and a big part of that is probably because they slow down a lot during the winter. These brown recluses in captivity have lived over five years, which is really long for a spider, exceptionally long.

• 25:56Jeff Larson?

  That's nothing.

• 25:57Wes Larson?

  And then, another crazy thing about them is they can go over a year without feeding, which again is very abnormal for spiders. Spiders generally feed very often, and brown recluses can go over a year without feeding a single time.

• 26:11Jeff Larson?

  Hmm.

• 26:11Mike Smith?

  Oh, man.

• 26:12Jeff Larson?

  That's something. That's good.

• 26:14Wes Larson?

  Okay, we're gonna talk about mating. I've got a good description on how these spiders mate from the book. You guys gotta promise not to get too fired up by this, though.

• 26:24Jeff Larson?

  No promises.

• 26:25Wes Larson?

  But you gotta promise me. Alright, here's the description, verbatim. Typically, just placing a male in an arena with a virgin female is enough to get the process started. You guys know how that, how that is. The male approaches the female.

• 26:42Jeff Larson?

  Virgin's overrated.

• 26:46Mike Smith?

  Not to the volcano gods. That's all they want, dude. If you throw, if you throw some loose hussy into a volcano, they're not gonna be appeased.

• 26:57Wes Larson?

  Jason, only like he's not gonna kill a virgin?

• 27:00Mike Smith?

  Right.

• 27:01Wes Larson?

  Alright, the male approaches the female, and when he senses her presence, he stops walking around the arena. He often plucks at her web, sending vibrations to alert her that he is a suitor and not prey. Then he faces the female, moves his first pair of legs over her, stroking her front legs in an apparent embrace, and vibrates his legs while draping them over the female.

• 27:24Mike Smith?

  Oh, man.

• 27:25Wes Larson?

  Oh, it's picking up. It's getting hot.

• 27:27Mike Smith?

  Holy.

• 27:28Wes Larson?

  Oh, wait, just wait for this next line. Both spiders vibrate their palps almost continuously, which is kind of their, their sex organs.

• 27:36Mike Smith?

  Stop, Wes.

• 27:37Wes Larson?

  Especially, especially when they touch each other. We need to put some like romantic music behind this, Bill.

• 27:43Jeff Larson?

  It's pretty standard stuff so far.

• 27:45Wes Larson?

  No, no, this is getting hot.

• 27:48Jeff Larson?

  This is what, I don't know.

• 27:50Wes Larson?

  You vibrate your palp continuously?

• 27:54Wes Larson?

  Alright, uh, the vibration actually produces a sound called stridulation, causing the spider moving a little peg or pick over the palp over a series of ridges on the chelisera, making a noise similar.

• 28:11Wes Larson?

  Making a noise similar to running a stick over an old fashioned washboard.

• 28:15Mike Smith?

  Oh, no way.

• 28:17Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 28:17Jeff Larson?

  That's cool.

• 28:18Wes Larson?

  I either partner.

• 28:19Mike Smith?

  It's like a in tourist gift shops, they sell the little frogs with the wood thing you run over its back.

• 28:24Wes Larson?

  If you do that, all the spiders around are gonna be like.

• 28:28Jeff Larson?

  These spiders are kinda romantic.

• 28:29Mike Smith?

  Out of control.

• 28:30Wes Larson?

  They are, yeah.

• 28:32Jeff Larson?

  Like vibrating, touching each other, playing music.

• 28:35Mike Smith?

  Palps.

• 28:36Jeff Larson?

  That's pretty like, that's like, you know, that's a nice scene.

• 28:41Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Then, either partner may give a single violent shake to the web or pulse their abdomen. The female then moves their front legs upward and backward, which causes the front part of her body to angle up. The male then moves under the female, oh, here we go, and inserts his palps into the female's reproductive opening.

• 29:03Jeff Larson?

  Okay.

• 29:03Wes Larson?

  Typically, both palps are inserted simultaneously. Initial insertions last twenty to thirty seconds, with subsequent insertions being shorter. We've all been there, you know?

• 29:15Jeff Larson?

  Twenty to thirty seconds is pretty decent.

• 29:18Mike Smith?

  Two palps, too.

• 29:19Jeff Larson?

  I like that they do foreplay. That's cool.

• 29:22Wes Larson?

  Yeah, the mating terminates when one of the spiders abruptly runs away.

• 29:28Mike Smith?

  Walk of shame.

• 29:29Jeff Larson?

  You know that scene in Spider-Man 2 where Tobey Maguire makes the net and they're just like both cuddling in his web?

• 29:38Wes Larson?

  Oh, yeah, his palps are vibrating, both of them.

• 29:40Jeff Larson?

  I bet you he that's when they cut away, they did that.

• 29:44Mike Smith?

  She abruptly pulls her abdomen.

• 29:47Jeff Larson?

  Like, he is a spider guy now.

• 29:49Wes Larson?

  He is. All right. Well, honestly, like all of our little creepy critters that we've done on the podcast, they're so fascinating that I could go on and on and on about their biology. But let's get into the part that's probably most important to our listeners, which is their bites. Without a doubt, the thing that has given the brown recluse the most fame or infamy is their idea that these bites cause big patches of necrosis. Just picture like a big rotting chunk of flesh with crusty, dead, black flesh around the middle. They have that classic kind of target shape. And the way that the spider is represented in most media, you would assume that that's the norm for brown recluse bites, but it's actually far from the norm.

• 30:33Wes Larson?

  In fact, the vast majority of their bites are completely medically insignificant and just heal on their own. There are a contingent of people out there, most of them people that are well-educated in the spider and its venom, that think that it actually isn't capable of producing much of that necrotic effect and that the necrosis is actually just the result of a staph infection from someone who's scratching the bite a lot, which I don't agree with. I think it can cause necrosis. So let's break this down a little bit because it's confusing. I'm going to dispel a few myths and at the end, we're going to talk about kind of our final verdict on brown recluse spiders.

• 31:10Mike Smith?

  So wait, some people think that that huge patch of dead skin basically is just being caused by someone itching it too much?

• 31:18Wes Larson?

  Yeah, like a bacterial infection that they get in their spider bite because they're really itchy and they scratch.

• 31:24Jeff Larson?

  This guy had like a real sticky poop and didn't wash his hands after wiping and then itched his spider bite with poopy fingernails.

• 31:36Wes Larson?

  Exactly. That's a very graphic example for everyone that was wondering what this looks like.

• 31:42Mike Smith?

  Sure. Just, yeah, one possible, yeah.

• 31:45Wes Larson?

  Because staph infections can cause similar looking wounds. They can cause necrosis. They can get really gross.

• 31:51Mike Smith?

  Makes sense.

• 31:52Jeff Larson?

  Could be he reached in the toilet, touched someone else's poop.

• 31:56Wes Larson?

  That's true. It doesn't have to be his own poop.

• 31:58Mike Smith?

  It could have been you, Jeff, cleaning all those bathrooms.

• 32:01Wes Larson?

  Those paint jobs.

• 32:02Jeff Larson?

  If I got bit by a spider while I was cleaning those and then I didn't wash my hands, yeah.

• 32:07Mike Smith?

  Yeah. Always wash your hands, everyone, please.

• 32:42Speaker 04

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop, because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 33:12Wes Larson?

  You know what? The other day Jeff was wearing some corduroy pants that I really liked, and I asked him where he got them, and he said Quince. And then, literally a few minutes later, he asked me where I got my sunglasses, and I said Quince. And I really like that, that we're finding really cool stuff that we really like at Quince. And the thing I like so much about Quince is that getting a good wardrobe that will stand the test of time doesn't have to break the bank. They have premium materials, thoughtful design, and everyday staples that are easy to wear, easy to rely on, and much cheaper than buying from luxury brands. They really have everything that I would want in my wardrobe. Stuff like cotton sweaters, lighter jackets, really cool sunglasses, corduroy pants. The list goes on and on and on. And they work directly with top factories that cut out the middlemen,

• 33:57Wes Larson?

  so you're not paying for brand markup, just quality clothing. And I have really been impressed with how well-made everything seems. I feel like this is clothing that's gonna last a really long time. And we all know the problems with fast fashion, so I'm really excited that we get to partner with Quince. So refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to quince.com/tooth for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. They have tons of options. I know you guys are gonna find something good. And now they're available in Canada, too. So that's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com/tooth. Free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com/tooth.

• 34:36Wes Larson?

  Something that happens to me a lot is I get my bank statement or my card statement, and I find that I've spent quite a bit more than I thought. And those little purchases can just add up. And for me, it's really important that I have some help getting my finances under control. And that's why I love telling you guys about Rocket Money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, which is what I needed, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. But there's really so much more to it than that. There's a ton of different things that Rocket Money does. It helps you consolidate your checking, your savings, your loans, and your investments, all into a single dashboard to give you a clear view of your financial picture. And one thing I really love about Rocket Money is they give you alarms and alerts

• 35:20Wes Larson?

  if there's maybe a large transaction or some kind of unexpected transaction on your account. And a lot of you know that I have been scammed a couple of times. So having those kind of alerts really helps me know that I'm in full control of my finances and no one else is using them without me knowing. So let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at rocketmoney.com/claw. That's rocketmoney.com/claw. Rocketmoney.com/claw.

• 35:49Wes Larson?

  So first myth that we're gonna dispel is that these spiders like biting people. They really don't want to bite people. We are not prey for them. Venom is energetically costly. It's very valuable to them. They really just use it as a way to get prey and they use it as defense as a last resort. So pretty much every brown recluse bite comes from a situation where the spider's highly agitated and thinks it's about to die. So generally, that involves it being like partially squished or pinned. It can happen like a glove or a shoe or in folds of clothing or in bed sheets because the spider's been pinned against something. It thinks it's about to die, so it decides to bite.

• 36:35Wes Larson?

  I watched a lot of YouTube videos, some from our friend Jack, of people just holding these spiders, them crawling all over them, them like really agitating the spider and it's still not biting. Jack did finally induce a bite where he pushed it against his skin and it finally bit him.

• 36:51Jeff Larson?

  Wow.

• 36:52Wes Larson?

  He's actually done it twice. The first bite, he really didn't have any reaction. The second one, he had a bit of a systemic reaction. He had that little target forming on his hand.

• 37:02Jeff Larson?

  Everyone pray for Jack.

• 37:04Wes Larson?

  Pray for Jack. He's okay. Um, for now.

• 37:07Jeff Larson?

  Well, thank you for all your prayers. It worked.

• 37:10Mike Smith?

  Yeah, he might touch some poo in a toilet.

• 37:12Wes Larson?

  He fucking loves these spiders.

• 37:15Jeff Larson?

  Really?

• 37:16Wes Larson?

  Yeah. They have really small brittle things actually, and they're fused together. And those spangs can't penetrate through much clothing. So it's really unlikely that you're ever gonna get bitten in the first place by this spider.

• 37:29Jeff Larson?

  Hmm.

• 37:30Wes Larson?

  And here's a few examples of just how-

• 37:32Jeff Larson?

  Like the most protected, like Prince would have probably never got bit. Cause he has like gloves and jackets and pants all the time.

• 37:40Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 37:41Mike Smith?

  Or Chris Novoselic, he never wore shoes when he played.

• 37:45Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 37:45Mike Smith?

  Just the bass player for Nirvana.

• 37:47Jeff Larson?

  Doesn't that make you more susceptible?

• 37:49Wes Larson?

  Getting bit. Yeah.

• 37:50Mike Smith?

  Yeah, but like if you're not putting shoes on, you have no chance of a spider hiding in there.

• 37:54Jeff Larson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:55Wes Larson?

  Good point.

• 37:56Mike Smith?

  So everything else-

• 37:57Wes Larson?

  And if you just step on one, it's probably not gonna bite you, cause you're gonna kill it before it can.

• 38:01Mike Smith?

  Especially him. He's got big, he's like six foot eight or whatever.

• 38:05Wes Larson?

  That dude is big. Yeah. Alright.

• 38:08Mike Smith?

  So he's safe.

• 38:08Wes Larson?

  So here's a few examples of just how not prone to biting these spiders are. Okay? An eighth grade teacher in Oklahoma took his students on, and these are real examples, took his students on an insect collecting trip, and he noticed a group of students were very busy around some loose bricks. And when he finally checked up on them, he saw that they had collected sixty brown recluse spiders with their fingers without getting a single bite. So these are eighth graders, so they're not being very delicate. They're picking these spiders up with their fingers and they collected sixty without a single bite. Some people in Tennessee caught 44 brown recluses in sticky traps in only 24 hours

• 38:52Wes Larson?

  in their house, which means they had a lot of these spiders living in their house and they were never bitten. The craziest one is probably this woman from Kansas who reported having a lot of brown recluses in her home, so a scientist asked her to trap them and send them to him, and she collected 2,055 brown recluses over a six-month period.

• 39:14Mike Smith?

  Dude.

• 39:15Wes Larson?

  Her family had lived in that home for 11 years, and during that 11 years, only once had someone been bitten by a spider, their finger turned red for a few days and then it healed.

• 39:26Mike Smith?

  That's bad. Ooh.

• 39:28Wes Larson?

  So when someone is bit, the venom yield is gonna have an effect on their symptoms. So a longer bite with more of that load released is likely gonna trigger bigger effects in the bite.

• 39:40Jeff Larson?

  Redder fingers.

• 39:42Wes Larson?

  Yeah, redder fingers. Once again, the vast majority of these people are not really gonna have any symptoms aside from a little inflammation and itchiness, but now we're gonna talk about people that do have much more intense reactions to the venom. So recluse spiders, like the brown recluse and the Chilean recluse, have the ability to cause what's known as loxocelism in humans, which is essentially necrosis from a recluse spider bite. They have a specific enzyme in their venom that can lead to the destruction of red blood cells and necrosis around the bite site. Once again, there are people that argue that recluses don't have a medically significant amount of that enzyme in their venom, but

• 40:24Wes Larson?

  personally, I think that's a stretch. And I think we're good to say that about 90% of people aren't gonna have any kind of medically significant reaction, but a small number of people will. So aside from just that necrosis, loxocelism can also lead to systemic effects like nausea, fever, vomiting, rashes, and joint pain. And then there's evidence that in a tiny fraction of a fraction of the bite victims, that will lead to systemic problems in their bloodstream, which can lead to clotting, low platelet levels, organ failure, and death.

• 40:59Wes Larson?

  So a study in 2004 found that necrosis, that's the worst.

• 41:04Mike Smith?

  Yeah, right.

• 41:05Jeff Larson?

  Do you think their bites are worse for us or our bites are worse for them?

• 41:10Wes Larson?

  Our bites are worse for them. We are much scarier to the spider than it ever could be to us. We don't have venom, but our bites are worse to them.

• 41:19Mike Smith?

  Dry biting.

• 41:20Wes Larson?

  Yes.

• 41:20Jeff Larson?

  Okay.

• 41:22Wes Larson?

  All right. A study in 2004 found that necrosis occurred in about 37% of patients that sought treatment after a brown recluse bite and systemic illness in about 14%. So you might be saying right now, Wes, 37% is a pretty high number. But the thing is, those are people that went to the hospital after they were bitten. So that's a very specific group of people. That's not all the people that are bitten by brown recluses. Most people never go to the hospital.

• 41:52Wes Larson?

  So let's tell.

• 41:53Mike Smith?

  It's tough.

• 41:54Jeff Larson?

  Well, a lot of them are probably farmers too. They don't go to doctors.

• 41:58Wes Larson?

  To the gul dang doctor. A little bit of whiskey will.

• 42:01Jeff Larson?

  Working out on the fields in Kansas.

• 42:03Wes Larson?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 42:05Jeff Larson?

  You don't think they ever get bit?

• 42:07Wes Larson?

  I think they get bit a lot, and I think you're right. They probably just say, oh, it's just a freaking spider.

• 42:12Jeff Larson?

  Cut their finger off.

• 42:13Mike Smith?

  Yeah, gum it and then they go on with their day.

• 42:16Wes Larson?

  Go darn it, patin'.

• 42:18Mike Smith?

  All right. They've always got a spittoon so close by. How is that the case, Wes?

• 42:23Wes Larson?

  They have to, Mike. Where are they supposed to spit their chew?

• 42:27Mike Smith?

  Yeah, it's government mandated for, yeah, all farmers. Every 50 feet, there's gotta be one.

• 42:33Jeff Larson?

  You know what?

• 42:34Wes Larson?

  What?

• 42:35Jeff Larson?

  I don't really care if we get rid of Kansas.

• 42:37Mike Smith?

  Okay, really?

• 42:39Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 42:40Mike Smith?

  Why is that?

• 42:41Jeff Larson?

  Just, it wouldn't bother me.

• 42:43Wes Larson?

  Huh.

• 42:43Jeff Larson?

  I wouldn't miss it.

• 42:44Wes Larson?

  It's kind of the bread bowl. We'd need a lot of their grains.

• 42:47Mike Smith?

  Would we, we would lose out on some sports institutions.

• 42:51Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 42:52Mike Smith?

  Good college basketball, the Royals.

• 42:55Wes Larson?

  It's kind of dumb that they split a city named after their state with another state. Like, they should really stop doing that.

• 43:02Mike Smith?

  That is a weird move.

• 43:02Jeff Larson?

  I'll take that back. Kansas City was cool when I went there.

• 43:05Wes Larson?

  I like Kansas City.

• 43:07Jeff Larson?

  Some old hotels.

• 43:08Mike Smith?

  Good food.

• 43:09Wes Larson?

  Still an affordable place to live, too.

• 43:11Mike Smith?

  Lots of tornadoes.

• 43:12Wes Larson?

  Yeah, tornadoes are sick.

• 43:13Mike Smith?

  And I think that's actually kind of cool. Yeah. Wizard of Oz.

• 43:17Jeff Larson?

  Is it raining in one?

• 43:18Wes Larson?

  It's starting to rain pretty hard here. So just so you guys know, that is happening. It'll add to the mood.

• 43:24Mike Smith?

  Can you have Kansas? Can you have Arkansas without Kansas? Cause didn't Arkansas just kinda steal that name?

• 43:30Wes Larson?

  Ark Kansas?

• 43:32Jeff Larson?

  What do you mean?

• 43:33Wes Larson?

  Arkensis.

• 43:34Mike Smith?

  Cause if you get, you get, I don't, I actually have no idea. I've always thought that that was kinda curious though, right?

• 43:39Jeff Larson?

  It's like if we got rid of Mexico, then New Mexico doesn't make sense anymore.

• 43:44Mike Smith?

  It'd just have to be Mexico.

• 43:45Wes Larson?

  It would be Mexico. Yeah.

• 43:47Mike Smith?

  It wouldn't be the new one. It'd be the only one.

• 43:49Wes Larson?

  Uh, it's an indigenous name. So yes, you can have it without Kansas.

• 43:54Jeff Larson?

  Was Kansas indigenous?

• 43:56Wes Larson?

  Uh, I think so. Also an indigenous name.

• 44:00Mike Smith?

  Well, now we're in the quagmire again.

• 44:03Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 44:04Mike Smith?

  This is a whole conundrum.

• 44:05Wes Larson?

  All right. So now that we've talked about the fact that most of their bites don't cause any kind of medically significant reaction, we are gonna talk about a few stories where they did. Megan Lindsey is a name that some people out there listening might know. And that's because she took second place in season eight of the show, The Voice, which is a popular singing competition show here in the U.S.

• 44:29Jeff Larson?

  Hmm.

• 44:29Wes Larson?

  Well, one morning in early 2017, uh, I don't know. I've never actually watched that show.

• 44:35Mike Smith?

  Who were the judges there?

• 44:36Jeff Larson?

  Picked her.

• 44:37Mike Smith?

  Adam Levine.

• 44:38Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 44:39Mike Smith?

  Maroon 41. What's the number?

• 44:41Wes Larson?

  Still on that show?

• 44:43Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 44:43Wes Larson?

  Maroon 5.

• 44:45Jeff Larson?

  What was his tweet that went viral or his message that went viral like?

• 44:50Mike Smith?

  Your body is absurd or whatever.

• 44:52Wes Larson?

  Yeah. He was like sending really desperate weird messages to women. Yeah.

• 44:58Mike Smith?

  Hmm.

• 44:58Wes Larson?

  Uh.

• 44:59Mike Smith?

  I think that's a Gwen Stefani show too, right? She's.

• 45:01Wes Larson?

  She was on that show.

• 45:03Mike Smith?

  Or someone, I don't know.

• 45:03Wes Larson?

  I think they were both on it at one point. I think that's how they met.

• 45:06Mike Smith?

  Their meet cute. Yeah. They sang at each other.

• 45:09Wes Larson?

  Yeah. All right.

• 45:12Wes Larson?

  Yeah, dude. Like fricking Baron and Luthian. All right.

• 45:17Mike Smith?

  Sure.

• 45:18Wes Larson?

  One morning in early 2017, Megan rolled over in bed and felt an intense stinging feeling on the left side of her face under her eye. She slapped at it and then stared in horror at her right hand because there's a big dying brown spider that fell down from her hand and it lay dying on her bed. And she immediately recognized it as a brown recluse spider.

• 45:40Jeff Larson?

  Wow.

• 45:41Wes Larson?

  Swelling was her first symptom, and then it led to some pretty intense stinging pain that night. And then it got worse and worse, and she finally decided to go to the emergency room. Doctors looked at her sting and pretty much said there wasn't much they could do, but that the sting would likely calm down, or it might get worse. And unfortunately for Megan, it got a lot worse.

• 46:02Mike Smith?

  Some good doctoring there.

• 46:03Jeff Larson?

  That's interesting. It's kind of.

• 46:06Mike Smith?

  Could really go either way here.

• 46:11Jeff Larson?

  It'd be a crazy story if she just got better.

• 46:13Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 46:16Jeff Larson?

  It's interesting, like, because when you see like the videos where people were will tickle someone's face with a feather, and then they always slap their face with like whipped cream or whatever, you know? And it's like, interesting, that's the reaction is to like slap a tickle.

• 46:33Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 46:34Jeff Larson?

  And maybe it's because of this, maybe.

• 46:36Wes Larson?

  It could be.

• 46:37Jeff Larson?

  Before we had houses, we probably had spiders crawling on our faces all the time.

• 46:42Wes Larson?

  Yeah. And even in our houses, spiders like houses. That's. They give them like a lot of cover.

• 46:48Mike Smith?

  We all eat 700 spiders a year or whatever. Think of how many that was before we had houses.

• 46:54Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Yeah, that stat isn't true. We don't eat spiders. They don't.

• 46:59Jeff Larson?

  Cause we slap them off.

• 47:00Mike Smith?

  Right. All right. How many times do you think you've slapped yourself in the face not realized? Is that something you think we're doing? Yeah.

• 47:10Wes Larson?

  Probably.

• 47:11Jeff Larson?

  I'd normally realize it.

• 47:12Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I think I'd realize.

• 47:13Mike Smith?

  Wake yourself up.

• 47:14Wes Larson?

  I'm a kind of a light sleeper.

• 47:17Jeff Larson?

  Maybe twice.

• 47:19Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 47:19Mike Smith?

  So if a spider snuck into your mouth, you'd like wake up and you'd spit it out even before you ate it?

• 47:25Jeff Larson?

  I did, I'd.

• 47:26Wes Larson?

  I would think so.

• 47:26Jeff Larson?

  Have its babies in me.

• 47:29Wes Larson?

  It's a weird way to phrase that.

• 47:30Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 47:32Jeff Larson?

  That's what they did. They go in your mouth. They have their babies. Babies all come out.

• 47:37Wes Larson?

  Is that what they're trying to do?

• 47:38Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, seven times a year.

• 47:40Wes Larson?

  Oh, God. Megan broke out in a full body rash. She got a weird well on her throat and shooting nerve pains in both her shoulder blades and her face. On day seven, after her bite, the bite spot started to get pretty dark and then got darker and darker over the next few days.

• 47:59Jeff Larson?

  Hmm. And she was the one on The Voice?

• 48:01Wes Larson?

  Mm hmm. But this was after she was on The Voice. After a few more days, it's a big black spot of dying skin and flesh that was about the width of a golf ball. I was trying to think of something to like, show how big it was. It was like, kind of the size of one of those big pink erasers that you would have. So she went back to the doctor. They confirmed that she had necrosis and that some of the skin and flesh on her face was dying. She reached out to specialists. She finally found one that immediately put her into a hyperbaric chamber. And after a few treatments, she found that her necrosis had stopped and she was able to start healing.

• 48:38Jeff Larson?

  Oh, amazing.

• 48:39Wes Larson?

  Yeah. And we're going to talk about that. There's really not much you can do for these bites, but apparently that helped her kind of jumpstart her healing. Okay, we're going to talk about two stories of the worst case scenario from a brown raccoon's bite, and both of those happen to be stories from 2014.

• 48:55Jeff Larson?

  The year of the brown raccoon.

• 48:57Wes Larson?

  What?

• 48:58Jeff Larson?

  The year of the brown raccoon.

• 49:00Wes Larson?

  Yeah, apparently.

• 49:01Mike Smith?

  It's the Chinese New Year animal.

• 49:05Speaker 03

  Coca-Cola. For the big, for the small, the short, and the tall. Peacemakers, risk takers. For the optimists, pessimists. For long distance love. For introverts and extroverts. The thinkers and the doers. For old friends and new. Coca-Cola. For everyone. Take up some Coca-Cola at a store near you.

• 49:36Speaker 04

  Fall comes back around, there's a sense of a reset. And new pieces from Lululemon's Fall Drop are an inspiration to push your goals and elevate your routines. As your calendar fills, easy-to-layer styles meet the demands of your day. And as you challenge yourself to try even more, versatile sets transition with you. The Lululemon Fall lineup brings new levels of comfort and confidence, whether you're starting something fresh or starting something over. Check out the latest arrivals in store and on lululemon.com now.

• 50:05Jeff Larson?

  My dog Shanks is an adorable tripod that I recently rescued. He has the softest hair, he hops around everywhere, he has a big ol' smile with a floppy tongue, and then he has a spot on his eye. And he's just so cute, I can't even help it. I just wanna hug him all day long. One of our favorite things to do is to go to the local coffee shop, where without fail, everyone in the shop wants to pet Shanks. He gets the attention that he's craving, and I grift off him and get the attention that I'm craving. I'm just so happy to have Shanks in my life now. And if anyone understands being dog-obsessed, it's Ollie. They're relentless about delivering the best food and experience for you and your dog,

• 50:47Jeff Larson?

  and they give you a way to check in on their health over and over again. With Ollie, you don't just get food. Through their app, you can actually check in on your dog's health with real vets just by uploading a picture. Their team can check in on your dog's weight, digestion, teeth, coat, because they're obsessed with making sure your pup is as healthy as can be. Call me crazy, but since switching to Ollie, I've noticed that Shanks smiles a little wider, and he's just happier overall, and now he loves eating food. Get ready for both you and your pup to be obsessed. Head to ollie.com/tooth. Tell them all about your dog and use code TOOTH to get 70% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer an obsession guarantee. If you're not completely obsessed, you get your money back.

• 51:31Jeff Larson?

  That's O-L-L-I-E dot com slash tooth, and enter code TOOTH to get 70% off your first box. Ollie, feed the obsession.

• 51:42Wes Larson?

  For a very long time, I didn't understand thirst and hydration. I really just thought you had to replace water. And now I've learned that you also have to replace electrolytes. An electrolyte deficiency or imbalance can cause headaches, cramps, fatigue, brain fog, poor sleep, and general weakness. And you really feel the difference when you get it right. And that's why I love that we are partnered with Element. Element is a zero-sugar electrolyte drink mix and sparkling electrolyte drink born from the growing body of research, revealing that optimal health outcomes occur at sodium levels two to three times government recommendations. Each serving is going to deliver a meaningful dose of electrolytes. And we've been partnering with Element for a while, and I can really feel the difference.

• 52:26Wes Larson?

  I have more physical energy, more mental energy. When I have the chance to fill up my water bottle with Element, I always know that I'm just going to feel a little bit better that day as compared to just having a water bottle with normal water. I always just feel a little bit more myself, some more energy, and just clear mind. It's easier to do daily tasks. We've been singing Element's praises for years now on the show, and there's a reason we've stuck with them so long. All three of us just love their product. I truly drink it every single day, and I absolutely love it. I just love that it tastes better than water, too. It's fun to drink Element. But you don't need to take it from me. You can try Element yourself and see how you feel. Element has a world-class customer service team, and if for any reason you aren't satisfied,

• 53:11Wes Larson?

  they will take care of you. So you can receive a free Element sample pack right now with any order when you go to drinkelement.com/tooth. That's drink L-M-N-T dot com slash tooth.

• 53:25Wes Larson?

  This first one's going to be kind of a hard story. And if you don't like hearing stories about kids, you can skip it. It is kind of a rough one, though. On a Sunday morning in late November 2014, five-year-old Branson Carlisle was playing outside when he felt a pinch on his back a little after 9:00 a.m. He ran to his mom, and he said something had stung him. And when she checked his pajamas, a brown recluse spider tumbled out. Branson ate his breakfast and kept playing. I think it was dead by that point, the spider. Uh, and he seemed pretty normal to start with, but his mom wanted to be careful, so she took her son and the spider to the local clinic. Around 10 a.m., Branson started running a slight fever and the doctor examining him was a bit worried.

• 54:11Wes Larson?

  And that's because he knew that fever was a symptom of a systemic reaction to the venom, and he referred them to a nearby medical center. And the doctors there also took his symptoms very seriously. They put him on antibiotics and a steroid. The bite itself was starting to look like a big bruise, and there were dark blue, black, and red marks emanating from the bite. Uh, because of this, once again, Branson was transferred to a bigger hospital, but this time by an ambulance.

• 54:41Wes Larson?

  At the children's hospital he was taken to, his head and stomach started hurting badly. The doctors put him on oxygen and submitted him to the ICU. Then, as his mom was waiting outside the ICU, she suddenly heard calls for O negative blood, and a bunch of people were scrambling. Doctors from all over the hospital ran into Branson's room. And then at 11:30 p.m., a nurse came out, sat down next to Branson's mom, to tell her that his heart had stopped and that they had done everything they could.

• 55:12Wes Larson?

  His organs had failed as a result of the systemic reaction to the venom, and he had died 14 hours after having been bitten. Oh, man. There's a lot of potential stories, not a lot, a handful of potential stories that I found, probably less than 10, so not a lot at all, of potential deaths from this spider. I think that's the only one that I can say almost for sure was a death as a result of a brown recluse bite. And it's just incredibly tragic to have your son just playing one moment, and then 14 hours later, he's dead. It's like hard to even conceptualize what that must have felt like.

• 55:51Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, no, that's so unlucky too, from what you've told us.

• 55:57Wes Larson?

  Exactly. And it's been 12 years, but I'm sure they're still just reeling from that. Um, I will say that as far as people that are a little bit more susceptible to these systemic reactions, kids and the elderly are a bit more susceptible.

• 56:13Jeff Larson?

  I wonder if like, like it's an animal you can get revenge on. I wonder if you just do the rest of your life smoosh spiders.

• 56:22Wes Larson?

  Probably. Yeah. And you know, I don't think I could really blame someone for that. Okay. So this next one, that one is one that I think is pretty clear cut. This next one has a little bit more mystery around it. On June 30th, 2014, Charles and Betty Ann Strickland were at home in their house in rural Michigan. When Betty Ann showed Charles a bite on the top of her foot that she'd gotten at some point during the day. It was swollen and red, but it kinda just looked like a typical insect bite and they both brushed it off. Two days later, Betty Ann was noticeably sick and Charles said they should see a doctor, but because she was a nurse, she felt like she didn't need a doctor. She told her husband she just needed

• 57:04Wes Larson?

  some rest. But another day or two passed and she got a lot worse and Charles finally just like put his foot down and demanded they go see a doctor. As they were walking down the stairs to the car, Betty Ann complained about a lot of pain in her foot and Charles looked at it to see there was a lump about the size of a marble. Then she started to have trouble breathing and Charles called his daughter who lived nearby and then 911. As he's talking to the emergency operator, he saw his wife staring straight out into the distance and gasping for breath. Uh, she was no longer able to talk and by the time his daughter arrived, she wasn't breathing at all. His daughter did CPR for about 40

• 57:46Wes Larson?

  minutes and then the ambulance arrived and the paramedics continued CPR for about 20 to 30 minutes.

• 57:52Jeff Larson?

  It's a long wait.

• 57:53Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Before finally calling it and saying that Betty Ann had passed away. One of the medical examiners investigated Betty Ann's foot and took a photo of this bite location and sent it to some experts. And within a matter of minutes, they said that it had been a brown recluse bite. One of these experts had the theory that she was bitten directly into the bloodstream and that's why she had a reaction like she had. I don't buy that. I'm no expert on brown recluses. We've talked about a lot of different venom on the show, though. I don't think it really matters if you're bitten directly into your bloodstream. I don't think there's a big effect there. And I kind of, I like, this is me making a judgment

• 58:35Wes Larson?

  call here. I kind of don't think that this expert was an expert on brown recluses either. And there's a few reasons for that. First of all, and, and just like a quick preface on that, when we've talked about animals that, that bite and have venom, we've learned that really, there are a few specific people around the country that are true experts about those animals and, and what their venom does to people. And a lot of the other people actually aren't, you know, toxicologists. Yeah, Joe Rogan is not one of those experts.

• 59:05Jeff Larson?

  Oh, no, I see.

• 59:06Wes Larson?

  Yeah. No, he is not. Um, so I'm not, I, I shouldn't, I don't know who this expert was, but I do kind of think that they weren't a brown recluse expert. And there's two reasons for that. One is that Michigan is not in the typical range for brown recluses. It is a border state, so it's possible. And there are a few reports of them every year in Michigan, but there aren't a big population of brown recluses there. So it's highly unlikely that she was bitten by a brown recluse for that reason. The second reason that I, that I picked up when I was reading this story, everything I read about brown recluse bites say that the bite location is almost always sunken. Uh, and it's like recessed. So when you get

• 59:49Wes Larson?

  bit by a brown recluse, where you actually get bit, doesn't swell up, it kind of sinks down. And then that's the part that the necrosis spreads out from. Her bite location was right, was raised, and it was raised like substantially. Her husband said it looked like a big swollen marble on her foot.

• 1:00:08Wes Larson?

  And there's actually a mnemonic mnemonic, say that word for me, Mike.

• 1:00:12Jeff Larson?

  Mnemonic?

• 1:00:13Wes Larson?

  Mnemonic device. Yeah. Uh, that helps you know if you were actually bitten by a brown recluse. It's called not recluse. And it has like an explanation for every letter of not recluse. And if any of those things are true, you probably weren't bitten by a brown recluse. So for example, N stands for numerous. So if you have two fang marks instead of just one, you weren't bitten by a brown recluse because their bites look like just one fang mark because they have fused fangs.

• 1:00:42Mike Smith?

  Oh, the fuse.

• 1:00:43Jeff Larson?

  Twice, close to each other.

• 1:00:45Wes Larson?

  That's possible, but not likely at all. So that's like, this isn't a foolproof thing, but it's an interesting thing to read through. And one of those things is elevated. If it's elevated, it's not a brown recluse bite because it should be a shallow depression. So what do I think happened to this woman? I don't doubt that she was bitten by something. But from like my narrow expertise about this, having done episodes about both spiders, I think that it's kind of likely she was bitten by a black widow. And they're not like, they rarely kill people. Like we talked about how there haven't been any reported deaths in a long time,

• 1:01:27Wes Larson?

  but they have a really raised bump when they bite that it can look a lot like a marble. And people can have these kinds of systemic reactions from their venom too. So I think if we were to blame this on a spider, it's much more likely that it's a black widow. It could also just be a delayed anaphylactic reaction to any other sting or something. So I really don't think this was a brown recluse, but whatever it was, it's really tragic.

• 1:01:54Mike Smith?

  Yeah, that's a haunting thought to have just a barely perceptible sting or a bite that you almost don't even notice that eventually will lead quickly even sometimes to your death. You know, it's going to make me, that's going to mess with me anytime I feel like a little sting or a twitch now, you know?

• 1:02:12Wes Larson?

  It shouldn't though, like I, this, this episode actually made me feel a lot better about spiders that like run on the ground. Because what I learned is that really none of those spiders cause necrosis aside from brown recluses and even brown recluses, it hardly ever happens. It's really rare that they ever cause any kind of real effect.

• 1:02:34Jeff Larson?

  Why did you specify spiders that run on the ground?

• 1:02:38Wes Larson?

  Because those are like the ones that you typically. Associate with like bites, I think in a lot of places, um, like hobo spiders or ground spiders or brown recluses. Yeah. Wolf spiders, they're the ones that people tend to be more worried about when it comes to bites. And they're the ones that I always thought about. And I always thought hobo spiders could, we have them in Montana, that they could turn into like a big necrosis like this. And they can't. It doesn't happen. One thing I just wanted to mention, a lot of the videos and stuff I saw said that there were no actual deaths attributed to brown recluses. A lot of these like quote unquote experts said that. There definitely are. Like this kid in Alabama died from a brown recluse bite.

• 1:03:21Wes Larson?

  And there are a few others that are like in the medical literature as death from envenomation by brown recluse. So there are some deaths. But it's incredibly rare, but I don't think you can say that like this kid that died in 14 hours died from a staph infection. You know, like he died from a brown recluse bite.

• 1:03:38Jeff Larson?

  Right.

• 1:03:38Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:03:39Jeff Larson?

  Like they had the spider and everything in that.

• 1:03:42Wes Larson?

  Yeah, exactly. And like it was positive. I saw the photo. It was a brown recluse.

• 1:03:47Jeff Larson?

  Like more than like a great white shark bite. They don't bring the shark in the hospital.

• 1:03:53Wes Larson?

  They're like, I don't know. It could have been a staph infection.

• 1:03:58Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Well, I was bitten by a great white shark and all my blood came out of my body, but sure.

• 1:04:06Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, they died from blood loss.

• 1:04:10Mike Smith?

  Think of how easy it would be to get a staph infection in a severed limb though. You know, that's a lot of that surface area to put poo in.

• 1:04:18Wes Larson?

  Or a sand infection.

• 1:04:19Jeff Larson?

  Hand's gone though.

• 1:04:21Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:21Jeff Larson?

  That's one less hand for poo nails.

• 1:04:24Mike Smith?

  That's right.

• 1:04:25Wes Larson?

  That's true.

• 1:04:26Mike Smith?

  All right. You gotta take that into account.

• 1:04:28Wes Larson?

  So after all of this, putting all of this together, what you guys have learned about brown recluses today. Where do we stand on them as like their general danger? How do you guys feel about brown recluses now?

• 1:04:39Jeff Larson?

  I still want one of them in my house.

• 1:04:42Wes Larson?

  I think that's fair.

• 1:04:43Jeff Larson?

  And if I lived in an area with a lot of them, it's not something that I would just dismiss. But like it's, I would probably say similar to Black Widows. Like it's kind of cool to see one, but I don't want them in my house.

• 1:05:01Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Mike, how do you feel?

• 1:05:03Mike Smith?

  I feel pretty good. I, I actually have something of an affinity for spiders. I just think they're really, really cool. And you know, they can be threatening, I guess, in rare circumstances, but never in my life have I ever been frightened. Or had like any kind of existential dread over them. And this episode just makes me feel even better, honestly.

• 1:05:23Wes Larson?

  Good. They kind of give me the willies a little bit, but I really like spiders too. I just think like they're, they're like some of the most effective predators on the planet. And just really, they're just so fascinating. Anytime we do a spider episode, I think about it for weeks afterward. I am kind of with like, I'm on the same wavelength as Jeff. I think if I had them in my house, I would be very cautious about them. And even knowing that your chances of being bitten are incredibly small. And then your chances of having a systemic reaction are much smaller. It still is a possibility, like the fact that there's a spider in your house that could possibly make your skin rot away, or like possibly have like a worse reaction is something to think about.

• 1:06:08Wes Larson?

  I would still think about it. So I don't blame anyone that has like a little bit of fear about these spiders. But I hope this episode made you realize that it's not what the media says it is. That their bites are almost always completely harmless and, and they deserve to live too. This is an animal that has evolved alongside us, that has managed to make habitat out of human destruction. And I think that is something that's really beautiful. So I do, I do like that about them. Okay, you guys got any questions about brown recluses before we move on to our categories?

• 1:06:44Jeff Larson?

  I wouldn't want it to bite my butt.

• 1:06:46Wes Larson?

  Your butt? I think that's where I'd most want to get bit.

• 1:06:48Jeff Larson?

  Mine's already like a little small and I just feel like my pants would fall off if it did the.

• 1:06:54Wes Larson?

  If you lost anything. Yeah, your butt's had its fair share of problems lately, too. You don't need any others. Your butt needs a break, right?

• 1:07:03Mike Smith?

  It's a belt.

• 1:07:05Wes Larson?

  Alright, where would you guys want to get bit? If you had to have like necrosis, where would you want it to be?

• 1:07:11Mike Smith?

  Who?

• 1:07:11Jeff Larson?

  It's a good question.

• 1:07:13Wes Larson?

  I think Megan had like the worst spot, like right on your face, under your eye. That's it. That's a bad spot to have necrosis. She healed up really well, actually, but um, that's a bad spot.

• 1:07:25Mike Smith?

  Maybe my ear lobe?

• 1:07:27Wes Larson?

  Hmm, interesting. Just have your ear rot off?

• 1:07:30Mike Smith?

  Yeah. I don't know.

• 1:07:33Wes Larson?

  I think like a shoulder blade would be the easiest. Stomach is a good answer. Okay, uh, categories.

• 1:07:40Mike Smith?

  Fingernail.

• 1:07:41Wes Larson?

  Your favorite spider scene from any pop culture that kind of gives you the willies?

• 1:07:46Jeff Larson?

  Fingernail's a good answer.

• 1:07:48Mike Smith?

  Yeah. It's like a little shield.

• 1:07:51Jeff Larson?

  My tooth?

• 1:07:52Mike Smith?

  The tooth is even better, yeah.

• 1:07:56Mike Smith?

  You can just hear the little like ding as they ricochet off, their fangs ricochet off your teeth.

• 1:08:05Jeff Larson?

  The dentist is just like, I've never seen a tooth deteriorate like this.

• 1:08:09Wes Larson?

  Necrosis of the tooth.

• 1:08:12Wes Larson?

  Uh, I'll go first.

• 1:08:13Jeff Larson?

  What was your question?

• 1:08:15Wes Larson?

  Uh, your favorite spider scene from any pop culture that gives you the willies? There's one that lives like kind of rent free in my head and that is um, from the movie Arachnophobia, which I saw way too young and did kind of, I think the only reason I have any fear of spiders is because of that movie. And there's a scene in that movie where you see a spider that kind of looks like a brown recluse-ish spider, like a ground spider, that crawls into a football helmet. And it's like a big spider and it crawls into this football helmet and then the football player runs up, grabs the helmet and puts it on and starts playing. And it's just this kind of ticking clock of when you know he's about to get bit.

• 1:08:57Wes Larson?

  And it just really gets me. The fact that he's just playing football with this big spider in his helmet. I don't know, that one really gets me. So that's mine.

• 1:09:07Jeff Larson?

  I'll go with Spider from the most recent two Avatar movies.

• 1:09:11Mike Smith?

  That's a great answer.

• 1:09:13Jeff Larson?

  Particularly when he's like trying to act like the avatars and stuff.

• 1:09:20Mike Smith?

  True.

• 1:09:20Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:21Mike Smith?

  He grew on you. Leave the room when he comes on. I don't blame it's not.

• 1:09:24Wes Larson?

  He grew on me in the third movie.

• 1:09:26Jeff Larson?

  I think some of his direction for what he's asked to do is rough.

• 1:09:31Mike Smith?

  I don't blame him, the actor at all. It's just, that's a weird.

• 1:09:34Jeff Larson?

  But like when he's like, what up, bro?

• 1:09:36Mike Smith?

  What up, bro? And then he starts kissing at everyone.

• 1:09:38Jeff Larson?

  Their avatars and stuff and kisses.

• 1:09:41Wes Larson?

  Well, you guys, we talked about this, right? That he had to record all his scenes alone for like a year? Yeah, it's crazy.

• 1:09:47Mike Smith?

  No, he did his best. It was a, yeah, it was like a Star Wars prequels. They weren't given the best material to work with.

• 1:09:55Wes Larson?

  I love those movies. I'm all in now. I'm like unabashedly a fan of the Avatar movies now.

• 1:10:01Mike Smith?

  I don't know where I'm at with them. I still haven't seen the third one.

• 1:10:05Wes Larson?

  Oh, it's so good.

• 1:10:06Mike Smith?

  Like a removed admiration, I guess.

• 1:10:10Wes Larson?

  Dude, Varang, she'll make your palps vibrate. You go watch that movie.

• 1:10:14Mike Smith?

  I gotta watch that, it sounds like. I'm gonna go with the Ralph Bakshi Hobbit movie in Merkwood. Um, when all the dwarves get wrapped up by the spiders and Bilbo has to save them all. But that's such like a creepy thing to consider is just getting ambushed by a huge spider and wrapped up in its silk and just kind of left to dangle until they eat you. And that always gave me the whiles when I was a wee little lad.

• 1:10:38Wes Larson?

  I thought the spiders in the Peter Jackson Hobbit were like a bright spot in that movie. I know a lot of people don't like those movies, but I thought the spider scene was pretty good. Until the freaking elves show up and they're just like doing all their little elf acrobatics with the spiders.

• 1:10:52Mike Smith?

  So cool.

• 1:10:54Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:56Wes Larson?

  All right, uh, three brown things that you love. Mike absolutely loves brown. So this is a category in his, in his honor. Name three brown things that you really love.

• 1:11:08Mike Smith?

  Such a hard, so hard to answer. But when they brought back the brown color schematic for the Padres jerseys, it's like the best day in my life.

• 1:11:19Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:19Mike Smith?

  I couldn't believe, we stuck with the navy blue for so long. And it's like, why? Why does anyone use navy blue in the first place? And especially the Padres?

• 1:11:29Wes Larson?

  The most boring color.

• 1:11:30Mike Smith?

  It's awful. It's just really, really bad. So the pods now are often just straight up brown sometimes. And that's, that gets me hyped.

• 1:11:39Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:39Mike Smith?

  There's a weird part of the sunset at the very end of the sunset, when there's this weird strip of hazy brown afterglow. That makes me kind of feel like I'm living in a dream state, like a fugue state when I'm driving around or just outside during that little brief five minute window. And I love that. There's just something about that dead sunset remaining light that just like makes me feel a way that I never get anywhere else. So there's that. Shoot, the Brown album by Primus?

• 1:12:11Wes Larson?

  Sure. That's an extra.

• 1:12:12Mike Smith?

  That's my underrated. I mean, I know we got, it's no longer Herb on the drums, but we got Brain. That dude's kicking some serious butt on the set. No, that's less.

• 1:12:24Wes Larson?

  Okay. Less Claypool. Yeah.

• 1:12:27Mike Smith?

  I could go on for years, but I'll stop.

• 1:12:29Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:12:29Mike Smith?

  Brownies? Brownies Wes?

• 1:12:32Wes Larson?

  I love brownies.

• 1:12:33Mike Smith?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:12:35Jeff Larson?

  I'm having a hard time. You didn't, you didn't let us prepare for this one.

• 1:12:37Wes Larson?

  I didn't prep. Okay, I'll go first then. I picked, you know, my obvious one would be Brown Bears. So we're just gonna put that as an honorable mention. Brown sugar. I love brown sugar.

• 1:12:47Mike Smith?

  Gosh.

• 1:12:48Wes Larson?

  I make this, and I still need to post this to our Patreon. I'm going to. I've made the video already. Uh, I make this brown sugar syrup for my coffee in the morning. And it's like part brown sugar, part maple syrup, salt and cinnamon. And it is so good. And it makes me look forward to my, my like iced coffee that I drink every morning so much. I just love brown sugar.

• 1:13:11Mike Smith?

  Coffee itself, you could have, I mean, that's a strong submission.

• 1:13:15Wes Larson?

  It smells brown too.

• 1:13:16Mike Smith?

  But oh, it smells.

• 1:13:17Jeff Larson?

  That's one of mine.

• 1:13:18Wes Larson?

  Okay. We'll leave that for Jeff.

• 1:13:20Mike Smith?

  Okay.

• 1:13:20Wes Larson?

  The inside of a cabin.

• 1:13:22Jeff Larson?

  Macarons.

• 1:13:23Mike Smith?

  Holy Mac.

• 1:13:24Wes Larson?

  Like the feeling of being inside of like a cabin where all the exposed wood. Uh, I kind of have that feeling in my shed. It just feels very cozy and nice. And it's because of all that beautiful brown that you're surrounded by.

• 1:13:36Jeff Larson?

  You think, that's more tan.

• 1:13:38Wes Larson?

  It's, it's a shade of brown though. Tan's a shade of brown.

• 1:13:41Mike Smith?

  I'll give it to you.

• 1:13:42Wes Larson?

  Okay, and then the Milk Caramel Sea Salt Tony's Chocolate Bar, uh, which is my favorite chocolate bar in existence. I'm, I feel so lucky that I can just buy it anywhere these days. Uh, it used to just be at like our fancy pants grocery store, but now it's like everywhere. And boy, is that a good chocolate bar.

• 1:14:03Mike Smith?

  It's freaking, you put it on my radar and it's really changed my life for the better and for the worse.

• 1:14:07Wes Larson?

  Oh, I, I buy a big one for like a trip and I just kind of nibble at it the whole trip. So there's free ad for Tony's.

• 1:14:14Jeff Larson?

  You did like favorite brown things. I'm trying to think of like my favorite.

• 1:14:19Wes Larson?

  Shades of brown?

• 1:14:20Jeff Larson?

  Just like ti- like, yeah, shades of brown that I've seen in the, like, I love the way coffee looks when it's coming out of the espresso thing, like the, like smooth, uh, I just, and it like changes shades a bit. That's a good color. I love like melted chocolate color. I was trying to think like,

• 1:14:42Wes Larson?

  poop.

• 1:14:42Jeff Larson?

  In nature, brown bear is probably the best, right? What other, other brown animals?

• 1:14:46Wes Larson?

  There's lots of brown animals.

• 1:14:48Jeff Larson?

  Um, I'm having a hard time.

• 1:14:50Wes Larson?

  Well, I, I guess if you're not counting tan is brown, but I do like, uh,

• 1:14:54Jeff Larson?

  Elk, elk or brown. Lion's not brown.

• 1:14:57Wes Larson?

  Elk or brown, um.

• 1:14:59Jeff Larson?

  I don't think elk are brown. Elk are tan. Tan and brown are different.

• 1:15:04Wes Larson?

  Elk are brown. Cappy bar are brown.

• 1:15:07Jeff Larson?

  Um, Cappy bar is a good one.

• 1:15:09Wes Larson?

  There's lots, there's so many brown animals. Weasels are brown, otters are brown, beavers are brown.

• 1:15:16Mike Smith?

  Charlie brown.

• 1:15:17Wes Larson?

  Are brown. Yeah, Charlie's brown.

• 1:15:19Mike Smith?

  Uh, I guess that's a way to say that.

• 1:15:21Jeff Larson?

  Latinas.

• 1:15:23Mike Smith?

  I mean, take your pick.

• 1:15:24Wes Larson?

  That's fine. Yeah.

• 1:15:26Mike Smith?

  Penelope Cruz, dude. Are you kidding me?

• 1:15:29Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:29Mike Smith?

  Who's the one, you're always talking about Samaic, yeah, brown. The best. That's the best brown.

• 1:15:35Wes Larson?

  We're gonna leave this category as quickly as possible. Uh, Mike, question for you. Would you rather be dropped?

• 1:15:42Jeff Larson?

  Ana de Armas.

• 1:15:43Wes Larson?

  Would you rather be dropped into a pit where you're chest deep in brown recluses for 10 minutes? Or have to spend a whole year where you exist in a reality where everyone around you smacks loudly when they eat.

• 1:15:58Mike Smith?

  Brown recluse. Are you serious?

• 1:16:00Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:16:00Mike Smith?

  There's no, not even an argument. Yeah.

• 1:16:03Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, I'd take that too. And it doesn't even bug me as much.

• 1:16:06Wes Larson?

  Well, Jeff, I've got your own question for you.

• 1:16:09Jeff Larson?

  Nevermind.

• 1:16:09Wes Larson?

  So I guess I already know what you're probably gonna say. Jeff, would you rather be put in a coffin with 10,000 brown recluses for 10 minutes?

• 1:16:17Jeff Larson?

  Brown coffin.

• 1:16:18Wes Larson?

  Or, or have to wait in line for an hour every day for a year? Jeff hates waiting in line.

• 1:16:26Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, I'd take the coffin.

• 1:16:28Wes Larson?

  Okay. Uh. Think I'd take either of the other options for those. I don't want to be in a pit with chest deep in brown recluses. If your chest deep in a pit of them, you're gonna get bit a few times.

• 1:16:40Jeff Larson?

  Wood is a good brown.

• 1:16:41Wes Larson?

  And if you're in a coffin with 10,000, you're gonna get bit. I said wood. That was my whole answer that you said I couldn't.

• 1:16:46Jeff Larson?

  Tan wood.

• 1:16:47Wes Larson?

  No, I said like the inside of a cabin. That's like, alright, whatever.

• 1:16:53Mike Smith?

  I'd take a pit full of nuclear warheads armed and ready to explode before one second of listening to.

• 1:17:00Jeff Larson?

  Take that over like lunch today, though.

• 1:17:02Mike Smith?

  No, depends on what's for lunch.

• 1:17:04Jeff Larson?

  You like want that.

• 1:17:04Wes Larson?

  You also want to live in like Japan where everyone smacks all the time and slurps.

• 1:17:08Mike Smith?

  They do big slurps.

• 1:17:10Jeff Larson?

  Just happens to be the only place that's been nuked.

• 1:17:14Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:15Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:17:16Jeff Larson?

  He loves being nuked, is what I'm getting at.

• 1:17:20Mike Smith?

  I'll take that chance.

• 1:17:21Wes Larson?

  Our next category, something that made you feel good this week.

• 1:17:25Mike Smith?

  I've got a two, a double answer for this one. So I ate some tres leches and that makes me feel good. Until it starts making me feel really, really bad because I think I'm developing that later in life lactose intolerance kind of thing.

• 1:17:38Wes Larson?

  I think that's kind of happening to me too.

• 1:17:40Mike Smith?

  So then I take Pepto Bismol and that also made me feel really good. Pepto Bismol, it turns out, is a miracle worker, at least for me.

• 1:17:48Wes Larson?

  It is.

• 1:17:48Mike Smith?

  There's something about it that just immediately eases all of that kind of discomfort and pain.

• 1:17:53Jeff Larson?

  Do you like how it tastes?

• 1:17:54Mike Smith?

  I do.

• 1:17:55Wes Larson?

  I kind of like the way it tastes.

• 1:17:56Mike Smith?

  I'm swiveling my tongue around the cup. I'm getting every last molecule of that. Yeah, it's like dessert.

• 1:18:03Wes Larson?

  All right.

• 1:18:04Jeff Larson?

  What would you Jeff? What if like you drink so much it gave you heartburn? What would you do then?

• 1:18:09Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:09Jeff Larson?

  Cause it's like, oh, I can't have more.

• 1:18:12Wes Larson?

  You go to the doctor and your insides are just pink.

• 1:18:15Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:15Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I guess they're kind of pink anyways. Uh, do you have an answer for this Jeff? Something that made you feel good this week?

• 1:18:22Jeff Larson?

  Yeah. Uh, the Utah Mammoth won yesterday. That was fun. It's one, one now. National Park after dark are my favorite business partner, Danielle. They won a Webby. So that's a big award.

• 1:18:39Wes Larson?

  Huge. It is big. Yeah.

• 1:18:40Jeff Larson?

  Like, I think our two that we won are still bigger, but I don't know.

• 1:18:45Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Best podcast.

• 1:18:46Mike Smith?

  Did we win two?

• 1:18:48Wes Larson?

  Yeah, we won a Signal Award and an Outdoor Media Award.

• 1:18:52Jeff Larson?

  For best podcast. But then they won the same one.

• 1:18:55Wes Larson?

  You literally have the trophy from one of those.

• 1:18:59Mike Smith?

  Jeff took it from me.

• 1:19:00Jeff Larson?

  I think I have.

• 1:19:01Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I've never seen it. No, I have seen it. Nevermind.

• 1:19:05Jeff Larson?

  And then, but yeah, congrats to them. Well deserved.

• 1:19:08Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:09Wes Larson?

  Amazing. Definitely. Yeah.

• 1:19:11Jeff Larson?

  Uh, and then 420 happened and that made me feel good too.

• 1:19:15Wes Larson?

  Yep.

• 1:19:16Mike Smith?

  Okay. What'd you do to celebrate?

• 1:19:17Wes Larson?

  I also felt good.

• 1:19:18Jeff Larson?

  Uh, it's illegal for me to tell you that.

• 1:19:21Wes Larson?

  Yeah. All right. Uh, mine, my answer happened last night. I went to a concert. I went to see, uh, Choirboy who opened for AFI. Choirboy, uh, is a band that started in Salt Lake and I'm friends with some of them. So I got to see some friends from a long time ago, which was great. And then I got to see my favorite band.

• 1:19:42Jeff Larson?

  Celebrity.

• 1:19:44Wes Larson?

  I got to see probably my favorite band ever play, which is AFI.

• 1:19:49Jeff Larson?

  Really?

• 1:19:49Wes Larson?

  And they.

• 1:19:49Jeff Larson?

  Favorite band ever?

• 1:19:50Wes Larson?

  I think so. If I had to pick a favorite band over my entire life, I'd pick AFI.

• 1:19:55Jeff Larson?

  Wow.

• 1:19:56Wes Larson?

  Um, it'd be between them and Weezer probably, but I think I have to pick AFI. Cause I've enjoyed like almost everything they've put out and Weezer's been a real hit, miss for me. They sounded so good and it was so much fun. And I just felt really alive and happy the whole show. And it also made me feel like, oh, here's a band that has the original lineup from when they started. And they all seem like they're still just like best friends with each other. And it made me think of like, the three of us too, how we can still be best friends after recording together for six years. And it just made me really happy. Like, I love that band and I love the show.

• 1:20:38Wes Larson?

  And I even like got in the mosh pit and went up like I was up in the front and it was great. So I had a great time. Yeah.

• 1:20:46Mike Smith?

  Great.

• 1:20:47Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, that was my first concert ever was you took me a Warped Tour in Boise. And I saw I was the headliner.

• 1:20:55Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:56Jeff Larson?

  That's cool.

• 1:20:56Wes Larson?

  All right, truth and flaw. We're gonna do a truth and flaw. So one of the boys has a actual truth about wildlife and the other one has a lie. And I have to decide which is telling the truth.

• 1:21:07Jeff Larson?

  Wes, plug your ears. Mike, what one was I doing again?

• 1:21:11Mike Smith?

  Um, you were doing, I forget. Hold on.

• 1:21:16Wes Larson?

  They're trying to mess with my brain. And it works.

• 1:21:19Jeff Larson?

  I'll just say what mine is and I don't remember though if it's true or not.

• 1:21:25Mike Smith?

  No, you did truth.

• 1:21:26Jeff Larson?

  So mine is squirrels can't burp. Okay?

• 1:21:31Mike Smith?

  Mine is no aquatic animal has ever been to outer space.

• 1:21:36Wes Larson?

  No aquatic animal.

• 1:21:39Jeff Larson?

  Well, that's a loaded one.

• 1:21:40Wes Larson?

  I'm pretty sure that they've taken fish to space.

• 1:21:44Mike Smith?

  Jeff is a skeptic through and through.

• 1:21:47Wes Larson?

  I'm gonna say Jeff's.

• 1:21:49Jeff Larson?

  Van Halen?

• 1:21:50Wes Larson?

  Jeff's is true, Mike's is the flaw.

• 1:21:52Mike Smith?

  It's the Van Allen Jeff, not Van Halen.

• 1:21:56Wes Larson?

  Jeff's telling the truth, Mike is lying.

• 1:21:58Jeff Larson?

  You're right.

• 1:22:00Wes Larson?

  Alright.

• 1:22:00Mike Smith?

  How do you know? That's luck.

• 1:22:02Wes Larson?

  I feel like I've seen videos of them taking like goldfish to space. They're just throwing stuff at the wall.

• 1:22:10Mike Smith?

  That's true.

• 1:22:11Jeff Larson?

  All on green screen anyway.

• 1:22:13Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Alright, we're gonna leave that.

• 1:22:17Wes Larson?

  We're gonna do a quick, what would Mike and Jeff do? Let's see, let's pick Megan's story. You're bitten by the spider and you start to see a black spot appear on your face. What are you doing?

• 1:22:29Jeff Larson?

  An octopus in space? That'd be cool.

• 1:22:32Mike Smith?

  I think that's where they came from.

• 1:22:34Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:35Mike Smith?

  Right?

• 1:22:35Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:37Jeff Larson?

  They don't need to breathe, I don't think. Um, what would I do if a spider was on my face?

• 1:22:43Wes Larson?

  If you were, if you were bit by a spider and then you start to have some of the symptoms that Megan was having, what are you doing?

• 1:22:49Jeff Larson?

  Uh, which one was Megan?

• 1:22:51Wes Larson?

  She's the singer.

• 1:22:53Jeff Larson?

  Yeah. I'm not. I do a lot of makeup on my face.

• 1:23:00Wes Larson?

  Start wearing makeup.

• 1:23:01Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:02Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:23:02Mike Smith?

  Yeah, what's Christian Bale's routine in American Psycho? He like ices his face and does a thousand crunches and stuff.

• 1:23:10Wes Larson?

  Red light mask.

• 1:23:11Jeff Larson?

  Ice your face.

• 1:23:12Mike Smith?

  That's what I'm doing.

• 1:23:14Jeff Larson?

  Get like a CO2 canister, put it on your face.

• 1:23:17Mike Smith?

  Right.

• 1:23:18Jeff Larson?

  Like the ward remover stuff.

• 1:23:21Wes Larson?

  Some silly putty and just pack it in there. Do. Alright. I wanted to ask this because I want to talk about what you actually should do. There are people out there that think that's what you're supposed to do and it is not.

• 1:23:35Mike Smith?

  It'd be hard to pee on your own face if you're a woman especially.

• 1:23:38Wes Larson?

  I don't have that pressure for sure. I can't get it up to my face.

• 1:23:41Mike Smith?

  You'd have to do like a handstand kind of thing.

• 1:23:43Wes Larson?

  Yeah, then I could do it. We've seen that happen, me and Jeff.

• 1:23:48Jeff Larson?

  I have one. I do like what Wes did when he was bit by one ant and make a whole episode about it.

• 1:23:55Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:59Wes Larson?

  All right. So if you are actually bitten by the spider, the first thing you should do is treat the wound. So put some antibacterial ointment or whatever on the bite side to make sure you don't get an infection. Next is going to be kind of up to you. If you know it was a brown recluse and you're worried, then go to the hospital. What I would advise, though, is waiting to see if you start to have any of those systemic symptoms. So if you start to see that target pattern forming around the bite wound with some blackness and like blue and whatnot, then you definitely want to go into the hospital. And if you do go to the hospital, the most important thing is to advocate for yourself. Make sure your doctor speaks to an

• 1:24:41Wes Larson?

  actual toxicologist that knows what they're talking about. There are potential different treatment options for brown recluse bites. There's no antivenom. So what they're going to try and do is slow down those symptoms and stop that systemic reaction. But you really need to talk with someone that knows their shit and knows what the most effective treatments currently are.

• 1:25:03Jeff Larson?

  Get a good, like, clear picture of it.

• 1:25:05Wes Larson?

  Yep. Yeah, because doctors, doctors are amazing. They do so much good in the world. But sometimes with these kind of things, they just are going off what they've read in the handbook. And toxicologists are up to date on the current procedures. So talk to a toxicologist. Okay. Oh, sorry. A little bit of prevention, too. Just so, just to put this in there. If you live in a place that has brown recluses, try to reduce clutter in your home because they really do like dark crevices and stuff to hide in. So anything you can do to give them less habitat is really good. So just kind of like maintaining a clutter free home can actually really help. It's a good reason to be clean.

• 1:25:46Jeff Larson?

  They like, don't live in Utah. I have so much clutter. They're probably going to come here.

• 1:25:51Wes Larson?

  Well, you, other spiders could be there, too. So also, the other thing you can do is if you're picking up clothes or boots or whatever else, give them all a quick shake before you put them on. And that'll just decrease your chances of surprising one of these spiders and making them bite you and probably killing it.

• 1:26:08Mike Smith?

  Do you have any ethical concerns over using?

• 1:26:12Wes Larson?

  Pesticides?

• 1:26:13Mike Smith?

  Pesticides are like even those spider strips you mentioned, like that kind of prevention?

• 1:26:18Wes Larson?

  I used to use those spider strips and then I felt really bad about it because I just think it's a terrible way for an animal to die. But a lot of these spider experts that I read up on said that you could use those if you're worried about him. So what personally, I don't like them, but I wouldn't blame someone that lives in brown recluse range using them.

• 1:26:36Jeff Larson?

  So the spider strips like spiders kind of die overnight in those things or like in a day. But then brown recluse can go a year without eating. So why do they die?

• 1:26:49Wes Larson?

  I think they just die from like over exerting themselves trying to get away from it, but I'm not sure. Yeah.

• 1:26:54Mike Smith?

  That is a tough way to go.

• 1:26:56Wes Larson?

  It I don't like.

• 1:26:57Jeff Larson?

  I think that's what NBA players should be doing, dying on the court. They're not trying hard enough.

• 1:27:02Wes Larson?

  That's how hard.

• 1:27:03Jeff Larson?

  They don't want it enough.

• 1:27:04Mike Smith?

  Yeah, leave it all on the court. We always say, but they never do.

• 1:27:07Wes Larson?

  Literally.

• 1:27:09Jeff Larson?

  Wimby tried to.

• 1:27:10Wes Larson?

  It's true. Yeah, there I don't. I do feel like personally, I don't like them, but I don't, I don't really want to get into the ethics of like killing a spider because I think it's wrong, but I don't know if I really.

• 1:27:23Jeff Larson?

  It's not like a message.

• 1:27:24Wes Larson?

  Think it's wrong. Yeah, sure.

• 1:27:27Jeff Larson?

  Pick your battles.

• 1:27:28Wes Larson?

  Yep, exactly. All right. So Jeff, do you have some nice advice would suffice? I know we had some leftover. Okay.

• 1:27:37Jeff Larson?

  Oh, we got a bunch.

• 1:27:38Wes Larson?

  Okay. Well, I'm going to do some listener questions too.

• 1:27:40Jeff Larson?

  Oh, I know. I'm just saying, don't act like this is the end of it.

• 1:27:44Wes Larson?

  Okay. All right.

• 1:27:45Jeff Larson?

  Coral Addy wants to know bear to the left or moose to the right? Which way do you turn?

• 1:27:52Mike Smith?

  Stuck in the middle with you.

• 1:27:55Wes Larson?

  What kind of bear? You can decide.

• 1:27:58Jeff Larson?

  Well, would it matter?

• 1:28:00Wes Larson?

  Yes.

• 1:28:01Jeff Larson?

  I mean, grizzly bear, you turn towards the moose.

• 1:28:04Wes Larson?

  I would.

• 1:28:05Jeff Larson?

  Black bear?

• 1:28:07Wes Larson?

  Turning towards the bear every time.

• 1:28:08Jeff Larson?

  Okay. Casey cryptid. I recently broke both my feet. How do I stay sane? I guess it depends how far away the moose and bear are like if it's for a picture I'll turn towards a grizzly bear.

• 1:28:23Wes Larson?

  Sure, let's let's go to this next one.

• 1:28:27Jeff Larson?

  How do they they I had I was like bedridden for two months. I couldn't walk because I my knee. Watched a ton of Game of Thrones, had a fling that ended pretty quick. Cause I couldn't do anything.

• 1:28:45Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:45Jeff Larson?

  And

• 1:28:48Jeff Larson?

  took a lot of oxy code on. So those are three things I would recommend.

• 1:28:52Wes Larson?

  I don't think you should do any of those things.

• 1:28:57Wes Larson?

  I I feel like I've always been really good at entertaining myself and not like feeling like I don't get bored. Like watching media or reading books. So I think I would just do that. I. So yeah, I guess I shouldn't. Jeff's Game of Thrones one. I don't think was a bad idea. Uh, catch up on some shows that you like, read some fun books, write in a journal. Do do all those like things you've been putting off for a long time. Because you have like more active things to do.

• 1:29:26Mike Smith?

  You pick up crochet crocheting.

• 1:29:28Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:29Mike Smith?

  It's a fun little hobby.

• 1:29:30Jeff Larson?

  Been thinking about that?

• 1:29:31Wes Larson?

  Or painting.

• 1:29:31Mike Smith?

  I used to do it a lot with my mom. Yeah.

• 1:29:34Jeff Larson?

  It's fun. To make beanies.

• 1:29:36Mike Smith?

  Yeah, that's like something you can double up with a a TV show.

• 1:29:39Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:29:40Jeff Larson?

  That's a big argument me and Wes have had is like. I made him a dark gray beanie and he thinks it's blue. And

• 1:29:50Wes Larson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:29:50Jeff Larson?

  We argued about that for a while. He's my beanie and I was like, I made it. I chose the yard and.

• 1:29:57Wes Larson?

  We see color very differently, me and Jeff.

• 1:30:00Mike Smith?

  Right.

• 1:30:01Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:01Jeff Larson?

  But I would say too, like at my apartment complex, there's this dog that can't walk. And they just wheel it around in a little wheelbarrow. So just have like. Someone wheel you around everywhere in a little like wagon thing, you know?

• 1:30:18Mike Smith?

  Could be fun.

• 1:30:18Wes Larson?

  Radio.

• 1:30:19Jeff Larson?

  Yeah. What?

• 1:30:21Wes Larson?

  Didn't radio in that Cuba Gooding Jr. movie have a little wagon?

• 1:30:27Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, you could have radio.

• 1:30:31Mike Smith?

  You could do one of those elliptical machines, but instead of your feet, do it on your hands.

• 1:30:36Wes Larson?

  How did radio ever get made? It was like at the height of his career too. Yeah, you did.

• 1:30:43Mike Smith?

  I don't know. I saw, I must have seen it at least once.

• 1:30:47Jeff Larson?

  Radio don't know what pants to wear.

• 1:30:51Wes Larson?

  Alright, you wanna do one more Jeff and then I'll do some listener questions?

• 1:30:56Jeff Larson?

  Rosie Reed says, my brother is going through a bad breakup and I'd love some advice on how to support him.

• 1:31:02Wes Larson?

  Uh, you know, the best way to get over someone is to get under someone. That's what I've always said.

• 1:31:07Jeff Larson?

  It's hard out there though.

• 1:31:08Mike Smith?

  Are you telling her to sleep with her brother?

• 1:31:10Wes Larson?

  No, I'm not saying that at all.

• 1:31:15Wes Larson?

  No, I think, I think the times that I've had really bad breakups, the thing that's helped me the most is really leaning on friends and then spending more time outdoors. And I know those are like really generic answers, but it's true and they have really helped me. So those would be my two pieces of advice.

• 1:31:34Jeff Larson?

  No, and I'd say like a bad breakup, there's normally pretty toxic feelings involved. And you just gotta like realize that even if she became interested in you again, like it probably wouldn't be a very healthy relationship. So like,

• 1:31:50Wes Larson?

  Yeah, there's a reason.

• 1:31:51Jeff Larson?

  You just gotta accept that it's over.

• 1:31:53Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:54Jeff Larson?

  Wait, I got one more.

• 1:31:55Wes Larson?

  Wait, wait. Mike didn't say anything.

• 1:31:57Mike Smith?

  Let's say go make some homemade bread together.

• 1:32:00Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:32:01Jeff Larson?

  With who?

• 1:32:01Wes Larson?

  Him and his sister?

• 1:32:02Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:02Jeff Larson?

  Or the ex?

• 1:32:04Mike Smith?

  Why? No, the ex is not gonna be a.

• 1:32:07Jeff Larson?

  Daisy K. Bingham asks, how do I act like the boss of people I'm already friends with just got a promotion? So she's friends with people who she was working with and then she just got promoted to be managing them.

• 1:32:22Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I don't, I personally don't think that bosses need to be bossy. So I just think you just act like yourself. And just be direct about like when you need something from them, but you don't need to be bossy about it.

• 1:32:34Jeff Larson?

  But what if they like take advantage of your niceness and start coming in late and slacking off?

• 1:32:41Wes Larson?

  Well, at that point, then it's a different question. I think, but that's like a hypothetical, you know? So in my mind, it's like.

• 1:32:49Jeff Larson?

  Realistic hypothetical.

• 1:32:50Wes Larson?

  If your friend comes in late, then you kindly tell them, hey, I like, we need to make sure that you're on time, you know? I don't know. I just think like, if you're not comfortable with that, then don't be their manager, but you don't know. I don't feel like bosses have to be bossy. If that makes sense, it's not very good advice. I'm not doing a good job on that one.

• 1:33:11Jeff Larson?

  No, I mean, I think that's why you're a bad boss, you know?

• 1:33:14Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I would be a bad boss. I would upsetting people.

• 1:33:19Mike Smith?

  So one thing I found pretty helpful is to have one-on-one meetings with it's, it's weird to call them, but like your superior is what you are now. So like, make sure you are still spending quality time with each other, but make it in like a formal setting where it's like, not quite a performance review, but just having a friendly chat about how their responsibilities are going and make sure that they know that like, you're still going to be friends and want to have lunch and all that stuff together still, but also there's going to be a time, maybe once a week or whatever, where there's going to be a formal sit down together. You can discuss things a little more professionally.

• 1:33:59Wes Larson?

  Sure, like have some like delineation between boss mode and friend mode.

• 1:34:04Mike Smith?

  For sure. Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

• 1:34:07Jeff Larson?

  I'd say you're manager now, you should be friends with other managers, not other non-managers. Yeah, so I would.

• 1:34:15Mike Smith?

  You're on another level.

• 1:34:17Jeff Larson?

  Get, get to work and you gotta humiliate one of them, you know? Like if they come in five minutes late, pull their pants down and be like, that's for being late. You can't pull those back up for an hour. All right.

• 1:34:32Mike Smith?

  That's pretty crazy. You're oh for three, Jeff. Not a single piece of advice.

• 1:34:37Wes Larson?

  I've got a couple of questions now from patrons. Uh, this one's from Gabby, and I think this is a really good question. If emotions are defined through behavior and body language and animals exhibit similar patterns, what makes emotions strictly human? Is it our ability to communicate these emotions? This question goes on for a while, but basically what Gabby is saying is, is it really anthropomorphic to say animals feel emotions, or it is simply a way to make us feel superior? So basically like Gabby's saying, you know, can we really say that they can't feel emotions? And I think the important thing here to realize is that anthropomorphism isn't saying that animals

• 1:35:17Wes Larson?

  can't feel emotions. I strongly believe that animals feel emotions. I know my dog feels emotions. I know wild animals feel them.

• 1:35:26Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, scared.

• 1:35:27Wes Larson?

  What, what anthropomorphism is saying that we can correctly interpret their emotions?

• 1:35:33Jeff Larson?

  Like we attribute it to how we feel and how we handle situations.

• 1:35:38Wes Larson?

  Right. That we can interpret them through the human experience of emotion. And I think we can make inferences about them. And I think there's like certain emotions that come through very clearly and we can guess, but because we can't communicate with those animals, we can't know exactly what they're feeling. And even people that we can communicate with, we can't know exactly what they're feeling. So I just think like that's important to remember the distinction.

• 1:36:03Jeff Larson?

  We have fun riding a bicycle, but forcing a bear to ride a bicycle, like you can't say for sure that they're having fun.

• 1:36:12Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:13Jeff Larson?

  That's anthropomorphizing.

• 1:36:15Wes Larson?

  For sure. All right. This one's from Dale. Dale says, since y'all are my dream blunt rotation, uh, even though we've established that Jeff is bad at passing the blunt, I was wondering who each of you would include in your own dream blunt rotation? Maybe do two people.

• 1:36:31Jeff Larson?

  Three, we're three.

• 1:36:33Wes Larson?

  Okay, we can do three. I would want David Attenborough. I would want Gennicio del Toro and the Pope.

• 1:36:44Mike Smith?

  Ooh, that's a good one. That'd be, you think our newest pope ever toques up?

• 1:36:49Wes Larson?

  I don't think he does, but he probably has at some point. Yeah.

• 1:36:53Mike Smith?

  I'll go Jeff Bridges, Emma Stone, and Steven Spielberg.

• 1:36:58Jeff Larson?

  I like that. I'm gonna get.

• 1:37:01Mike Smith?

  Just a bunch of actors and filmmakers.

• 1:37:03Jeff Larson?

  Me and Wes's mom, just cause she gets straight to the point, you know?

• 1:37:07Wes Larson?

  Yeah, we would hear some shit.

• 1:37:09Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, she would ask the other people like some real hard hitting questions right away. And then I want Vladimir Putin, just loosen him up a bit, see what he says. And I think I'll take with that same line of thought, Kim Jong Un.

• 1:37:26Mike Smith?

  Okay, yeah, great.

• 1:37:28Wes Larson?

  All right, Mike, this is a question for you. Do you handwrite or type your journal? And this is from Alicia. Alicia's really curious how you do it. And then says at the end, also, we wouldn't be mad at more journal episodes from you, please.

• 1:37:41Mike Smith?

  Bruh, uh, so I type my day to day journal I'm typing. I just have a running document, uh, but when I'm on a trip or when we're traveling, I always have a little notebook with me and I'm taking shorthand notes that I will later expand into fully coherent thoughts later on in.

• 1:37:59Wes Larson?

  You are really good at it. Okay, uh, I got a couple more quick ones. This one's from Swakes. Swakes says, hey, crew, we have garter snakes under our hot tub. Any suggestions on how to remove them? I don't want to harm them, but I have a deep rooted fear of snakes and I miss my hot tub time. Those are almost certainly snakes that are just passing the winter under there, probably because it's a warm spot. They are going to leave on their own very soon if they haven't already. So I would just leave them. They're not going to stay there. Snakes don't have like a fidelity to one spot. These garter snakes don't.

• 1:38:32Jeff Larson?

  Turn the temperature down if they like it because it's warm.

• 1:38:36Wes Larson?

  Make it an ice tub. Yeah.

• 1:38:37Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:38Wes Larson?

  All right, uh, I think just one more for today. This is from Buko De Colle 18. My brother says it's too cold on Antarctica to smell the penguins. I argue that since all the penguin sewage is underneath them where it's warm, they would smell super bad. Were the penguins expected stinky, super stinky, or surprisingly unstinky? What do you guys think? What was your personal experience on penguin colonies?

• 1:39:05Jeff Larson?

  It was very concerning our first time hitting land because it smelled so bad. It was like. This kinda sucks. It was cool, but it's also like, this is really hard to breathe.

• 1:39:19Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it was.

• 1:39:21Jeff Larson?

  It's not that cold.

• 1:39:22Wes Larson?

  Very stinky.

• 1:39:23Jeff Larson?

  Summer in Antarctica.

• 1:39:24Wes Larson?

  No.

• 1:39:25Jeff Larson?

  It's like, you know, forty degrees.

• 1:39:27Wes Larson?

  It's warm enough for their poop to thaw out. It was stinky.

• 1:39:30Mike Smith?

  Yeah, a little more than expected.

• 1:39:32Wes Larson?

  All right, I do have one more quick one that I did wanna do. This is someone that lives in Oklahoma. It's Mallory. Mallory says they have a lot of.

• 1:39:40Jeff Larson?

  Brown recluses.

• 1:39:41Wes Larson?

  A lot of, yep, a lot of rattlesnake festivals, which are hunts throughout the state. And at these festivals, I'm just gonna briefly sum this up. They do really terrible things to the snakes. They sew their mouths shut. They essentially kind of torture them in front of people. And Mallory's heard people say that the hunts are necessary for population control and that they use the snakes to make anti-venom. And is asking if that's true. Whether or not they do anything good with these snakes after torturing them, they're still torturing them for enjoyment. I think they're very wrong. I hate these rattlesnake festivals. I think it is just human barbarism, torturing animals. You can use rattlesnakes for anti-venom and do it in an ethical way that doesn't harm the snake.

• 1:40:26Wes Larson?

  So this is, I think they're very bad.

• 1:40:28Jeff Larson?

  I have seen some online where they claimed to like, not hurt any snakes. Where they would put them in like a ring and let people come see. But they round them up and like, get their ant, their venom.

• 1:40:42Wes Larson?

  They almost always hurt the snakes at these things. So I would be surprised if they're anywhere they don't. Okay.

• 1:40:51Wes Larson?

  Conservation corner, this is a least concerned animal. They're doing fine. Brown recluses are fine. If you have to remove them from your house, I wouldn't feel too guilty about it. And finally, our claw rating. This is a new animal, so we're gonna give it a claw rating, zero to ten claws. Mike, how many claws does a brown recluse get?

• 1:41:10Mike Smith?

  Six. I think I think they're cool.

• 1:41:14Jeff Larson?

  Just like their eyes.

• 1:41:15Mike Smith?

  Six eyeballs, six.

• 1:41:16Jeff Larson?

  Just like six eyes, yeah.

• 1:41:18Mike Smith?

  There you go.

• 1:41:19Jeff Larson?

  Jeff, I'm gonna give them a four. I like my, I don't like my small spiders being brown.

• 1:41:26Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:27Jeff Larson?

  You know, I like small spiders being jet black or colorful.

• 1:41:32Wes Larson?

  Okay, I'm gonna agree with Mike. I'm gonna give him a six. I think it's always impressive when an animal that small can have an actual danger to humans. It's really, that's just amazing to me like.

• 1:41:44Jeff Larson?

  So you love mosquitoes.

• 1:41:46Wes Larson?

  Yeah, think of how big we are.

• 1:41:48Jeff Larson?

  No, you don't.

• 1:41:49Wes Larson?

  I don't hate mosquitoes, though. Um, think of how big we are to a brown recluse, like just picture it for a second of like how big a giant would be compared to them.

• 1:41:59Jeff Larson?

  Confidence.

• 1:42:00Wes Larson?

  And then the fact that you could bite that giant and potentially kill them, that's amazing. So, and I think they're a cool looking spider and I've learned a lot about them, so I do like them, so they get a six.

• 1:42:11Jeff Larson?

  I put mine up to a five because I like how they have sex. I think that is like.

• 1:42:16Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:16Jeff Larson?

  I like some foreplay and all that stuff, you know?

• 1:42:19Wes Larson?

  Yeah, okay, all right, well, that is it for the episode. Thanks, guys, for listening. Uh, I hope it has expanded your, your, um, feelings and knowledge about a very misunderstood little critter.

• 1:42:33Mike Smith?

  Show enough has, Wes.

• 1:42:35Jeff Larson?

  Thanks, Wes.

• 1:42:36Wes Larson?

  Yep, and as always, we've got new stuff coming out on Patreon as well as our free feed, so check it out. Uh, Patreon is, it's just becoming better and better and we're really excited for some upcoming stuff on there. Including my, my brown sugar syrup recipe.

• 1:42:51Mike Smith?

  It's coming.

• 1:42:53Wes Larson?

  All right, we'll see you, guys. Love you.

• 1:42:54Jeff Larson?

  See ya.

• 1:42:55Mike Smith?

  Bye.