Council Tax Money Back Special **UPDATED 20/6, after Government consultation launched**

***This episode was first published on 5th June. It was updated on 20th June to reflect the launch of a government consultation on the administration of Council Tax.*** Martin goes through step by step everything you need to know about Council Tax. He explains: - How to check you are in the right band. - How to challenge your Council Tax band. - The Council Tax deductions you may be entitled to. - How to collect and claim if you are owed Council Tax credit Martin also gives his response to this week’s Winter Fuel Payment news from the Chancellor Rachel Reeves

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Martin Lewis?

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• 1:22Speaker 02

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• 1:34Martin Lewis?

  I'm delighted to be doing this update to the council tax podcast I recorded a couple of weeks ago at the beginning of June because there's good news. Now, the mainstay of the podcast that you're going to listen to is all about the usual stuff I do, how to save money, check and challenge a council tax band, hundreds of thousands of people are potentially in the wrong band. Are you entitled to discounts and reductions? And could your council owe you money? Some people get backdated payouts of thousands of pounds. But at the start of the pod, I talked about a potential government consultation on the administration of council tax and my hopes for what would be in it. Well? It came out today and most of my hopes have come to fruition.

• 2:19Martin Lewis?

  So I thought I'd add this introduction telling you what's happening for two reasons. One, because I thought you might be interested, but two, the government wants people's views on council tax too. You can feed into this consultation. So I would urge you to do so if any of these issues ring a bell to you. I'll of course be doing my own submission alongside my team, but it's important that they hear from the general pub, not that I'm not a member of the general public, you know the point, that they hear from the general public too. If you've been affected by these issues. So I want to talk you through what's going on. For me, parts of the council tax system are broken and I've called for some of these fixes for nearly 20 years. So it is a delight that the government has listened and rapidly launched this consultation,

• 3:02Martin Lewis?

  which includes many of the areas I've been talking to them about. And I can now tell you, it was a few weeks before all of that podcast that I met with Angela Rayner and put these points to her. And I do believe that she did listen. So the first one and the biggest and the most important for me, council tax debt debt collection. It is rapid and aggressive and the collection methods currently hurt millions of people and disproportionately affect those with mental health problems. Here's how it works. You miss a monthly payment because you can't afford it. Within three weeks, the council can tell you, you have to pay for the whole year. Within three weeks of you not doing that, they can go to court, get bailiffs, add charges

• 3:43Martin Lewis?

  on what you already owe and come in and take stuff from your house, which can be incredibly detrimental to people. No commercial lender would be allowed to behave like this. They are not allowed to behave like that. Constituents are treated worse than consumers. It's counterproductive. It can add to councils costs and it still doesn't mean people can pay the money back. If they don't have the money, they don't have the money. The government is consulting on slowing the whole process down, adding in that councils must be considerate of people's circumstances, capping the extra costs and as you have to do in consumer lending, pointing people towards getting help with their debts, which might just mean they're more able to repay the council.

• 4:26Martin Lewis?

  So I'm very delighted on that one. It's work that my charity, the Money and Mental Health Policy Institute has long been campaigning on and we've been doing it for a good amount of time. And it's brilliant to see that things might actually improve and people's lives could change. So do feed into that one. Next. As I talk about in the pod you're about to hear, council tax bans in England and Scotland haven't been revalued since the stopgap drive-by valuations first done back in 1991. Now, rebanding is not in the scope of this, this is about council tax administration. But the point I've made to them, that I'm delighted is in the consultation, is with potentially 400,000 homes in the wrong band.

• 5:08Martin Lewis?

  If people think they are wrongly in too higher band, they should be able to challenge it. Now, there is a blocker in place that says, once you've been in a property more than six months, it gets much, much more difficult to challenge. But I don't think people know enough about the system to be checking within the first six months. So what I'm suggesting is, everyone is allowed one formal challenge once they've moved into a property with no time limit. It's worth noting, all of this consultation is about England, but often when the changes come in England, they do sometimes roll out to Scotland and Wales too. The consultation is also proposing help for some of the most vulnerable. Another one of those campaigns, you'll have heard me say before, that severe mental impairment discount is horribly named.

• 5:51Martin Lewis?

  It's a discount that is potentially there for people who've had dementia, Alzheimer's, severe stroke, severe Parkinson's, and are no longer able to function socially in the way that they could. The problem is, it's been under-publicised, under-claimed, and over-complex. It's far too difficult to do. There are different systems with different councils. Sometimes you need a doctor to sign the form and you need to go to the doctor. Other times, the council sends a form to the doctor, the backdating is inconsistent. And in this consultation, there is an opportunity to move towards a simpler, more universal, less off-putting application process.

• 6:31Martin Lewis?

  So they were my three main ones, but there are some other things in the consultation I should tell you about too. They're talking about changing the default that you will pay council tax every month. So 12 monthly payments, instead of the current system, which is the default is, you pay for the first 10 months of the tax year, and then you have a couple of months where you don't pay. Now, the reason that's done is so councils can bring money in more quickly. But the government's saying, it doesn't make any sense, and of course, it's right. You wouldn't invent that system to begin with. Now, when I was first told about this, my point was, I think it's right that you shift the default to 12 monthly payments. But there are some people who like the 10 monthly payment system because they

• 7:14Martin Lewis?

  use it for budgeting and when they have those couple of almost payment holidays from council tax, that's what it feels like, though it isn't, you're still paying the same amount, that they put that money to other things like car insurance. So while the default will be shifted to 12 monthly payments, those people who want to stick with 10 monthly payments are still able to do so. You just have to request it and you can be on the current system. They're also looking at potentially upgrading the eligibility for carers and apprenticeships because the amount that you're allowed to learn to count, there's a limit and that hasn't gone up with the minimum wage. That's a pretty simple one. So look, if any of these issues are ringing a bell to you, have caused you problems or

• 7:54Martin Lewis?

  you feel passionately about them, I would urge you to put your own reply into the consultation. The portal is meant to be pretty easy to do. You should be able to have your say and tell the government what you think it should be doing. Even if you're just supporting the type of stuff I'm saying, then it'd be great to have your support on there. That's it for the introduction to this. You're now going to go into the podcast as it was. And at the beginning, there might be a bit of repetition because I'm now telling you what's in the consultation that I called and wanted to be in the consultation and the start of the pod, I tell you what I wanted to be into the consultation when the consultation wasn't coming out yet. So there you go. Have a listen. Hope you enjoy it.

• 8:34Martin Lewis?

  Hello, I'm Martin Lewis and this is the cunningly named The Martin Lewis Podcast. I do wonder what that's going to be about. Usually, much of it comes from my BBC Radio Five live show with Adrian Charles, but there's bonus money-saving tips just for you lucky, lucky podcast listeners. Today, it's a council tax money-back special. I've got four big cheques for you. Check one, in England and Scotland, the council tax band you are in is still dictated by a stop-gap, drive-by valuation done back in 1991. So it's no wonder up to 400,000 homes are in the wrong band and due a rebate of potentially thousands

• 9:15Martin Lewis?

  of pounds. I'll talk you through my check and challenge system on it and we'll hear from people who got big money back. Check two, if you're a student, single, a single parent, a carer, or have a severe mental impairment, you may be missing out on a council tax discount.

• 9:34Martin Lewis?

  Check three, up to two and a quarter million people on lower incomes are thought to be missing out on a council tax reduction because they don't know they have to claim it separately.

• 9:45Martin Lewis?

  Check four, councils are sitting on over a hundred million pounds of their constituents' credits. It's owed to over 800,000 homes. I'll show you how to check if you're one of them. And if all that wasn't enough, we talk inheritance tax, winter fuel payments, and the ISA rules too. The last one's in the mastermind. Will Adrian get it right? Play the theme tune.

• 10:26Martin Lewis?

  Now, I know it sounds like a stand-up comedy routine, but before we get into the meat of the podcast, I started the show with Adrian by genuinely having a funny thing happen to me on the way to the studio story.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  What kind of morning do you have?

• 10:41Martin Lewis?

  So normally I walk everywhere, as many people know, I like to get my steps. It was absolutely pelting down today and I was late. So I'd walked for about 10 minutes, my trousers were soaking, I thought I'm gonna need to get a cab, a cab's coming past, I flag a cab down. By the way, I tried to flag about five other cabs down, as anyone who lives in London knows, the yellow lights, you can't tell whether they're on or not, they often look like they're on even when they've got people in, but that's a story for another day. So anyway, I flagged the cab down, I get in the cab, and as I'm very lucky and fortunate in my life, that as often happens, I get in the cab and go, all right, Martin, I've got to thank you. And I'm expecting it's gonna be, you know, I've got a good cash ISA, or I switched my credit card. I said, why? He said, see that? And he holds up his hand. Yeah, he says, see the ring? I'm like, yeah. He said, I got married two weeks ago.

• 11:24Martin Lewis?

  Thanks to you. I said, what do you mean? He said inheritance tax. I saw you about inheritance tax. I saw you talking about it. Someone had told me about it 20 years ago. I've been with my partner 33 years ago. I got down on one knee, showed her your video of you talking about inheritance tax and asked her to marry me. And we got married two weeks ago. So it was so Oh, the romance. It's beautiful. I actually then said, can you say all that to me again? And I filmed him. I'm going to put it out on social media later, him telling the story. And yeah, his partner did complain, or his wife now, did complain that it wasn't that romantic. But thank you for that, Soho Joe, made my morning. I'll be putting that out on social later. Yeah, he got married two weeks ago, all on the bat, and I was involved in the proposal, you know? Oh, that's beautiful. A little bit of a fiscal cupid, I'm going to call myself. And you never got invited?

• 12:08Martin Lewis?

  No, I didn't. I didn't. True. Now, that's what I told Adrian in the live show. But I thought it might just be worth explaining to you what the benefit of marriage within the inheritance tax world is. And it's actually pretty substantial. Now, when we talk about marriage, it applies to anybody who is married or who has a legal civil partnership. But this does not apply to you if you are just cohabiting. And that was the thing with Soho Joe, the taxi driver. He and his partner had been cohabiting for 33 years, but they didn't have any legal recognition of their relationship. And that's what a marriage is, a legal recognition of your relationship. And a civil partnership is also a legal recognition of your relationship, without some of the, some might say paternalistic

• 12:48Martin Lewis?

  or religious overhang that a marriage has. So the two big inheritance tax benefits are, first of all, your spouse won't pay inheritance tax on anything you leave to them. When you die, any money, any property, any assets left to your spouse is automatically exempt from inheritance tax. So whatever you leave them, there's no tax to pay on that. But an even more important inheritance tax boon of marriage is you can pass on your unused inheritance tax allowance to your spouse. So in plain speak, you don't pay inheritance tax on the first £325,000 you leave when you die. Above that, if you're leaving your main residence

• 13:30Martin Lewis?

  to your direct descendants, so your children, or grandchildren, or step-grandchildren, or step-children, you usually get, not in every case, another £175,000 on top. So that's £500,000 that you can leave without paying tax on it. So if you leave everything to your spouse when you die, then you haven't used any of those allowances. And as they're unused, they get passed on to your spouse. That means that when your spouse passes away, they get their allowance and yours. Which means if you're leaving the main property, they can then leave a million pounds that they can pass on without paying inheritance tax on it. That's a huge benefit.

• 14:12Martin Lewis?

  And that's why it's often worth looking at getting married or a civil partnership, it counts in exactly the same way. Let me just try and do this off the top of my head and hope I can make an example work. So let's say that you and your partner have combined one million pounds worth of assets. When the first one of you dies, if you're not married, you leave everything to the other one. Well, you've just used, because your stuff is worth £500,000. You've just used £500,000 of your inheritance tax allowance. So you have no allowance to pass on for them. So your partner now has a million pounds worth of assets. When they die, their inheritance tax allowance is only £500,000. So if they pass that on to your children,

• 14:54Martin Lewis?

  that's £500,000 that would pay inheritance tax at 40%, which is a 200 grand inheritance tax bill. Now, let's contrast that to our married couple. In our married couple, they've got a million pounds worth of assets. The first one dies. All their assets go to their spouse and their unused inheritance tax allowance goes to their spouse. Because they're passing it to a spouse, it didn't count. So then, when the second one dies, they get to leave the entire million pounds to their children inheritance tax free. A tax saving of 200 grand. I think in the words of Beyonce.

• 15:37Speaker 04

  Winter fuel payments, Martin, this change in

• 15:41Martin Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 15:41Speaker 04

  change in direction, which they're taking their time over.

• 15:46Martin Lewis?

  They are, it's very interesting. People will know I've been, this is a subject I've long campaigned on. I've had two major problems with the means testing to winter fuel payment. Not the means testing itself, I've got no issue with saying that millionaires can't have it. Issue number one, the threshold. The threshold is clearly too low. £11,800, when you consider the average energy bill is £1,700, is too low a threshold and many people just above the threshold are in desperate need of help. When they got rid of winter fuel payments, it was the same time that they got rid of the energy support that had been in place for a couple of years because of high energy prices, but energy prices have not dropped substantially. So, they're saying they're going to increase the threshold. My other big problem, which is less talked about, but probably more important, is that

• 16:28Martin Lewis?

  the mechanism that they have used for means testing winter fuel payment is pension credit. Now, pension credit has long been known as a flawed benefit because it's critically underclaimed. And even now, after all this communication, there are still 700,000 eligible pensioners, in other words, they have less total income than £11,800 as a single pensioner, but they don't get winter fuel payment because they don't claim pension credit, because pension credit, it's very tough to explain who's eligible because what the income criteria are, and especially people with, say, onset dementia or who struggle with forms or are scared to call up, as many older people can be, aren't claiming it. Now, what I've read in the papers that they are planning to do, I need to be very plain, I am not a source

• 17:13Martin Lewis?

  of this information, but the papers seem to be pretty clear what they're looking at is doing something to mimic the high income child benefit reclaimed through the tax system. Now, the way that that works is you look at the highest income payer in the house and on child benefit, once you start to earn £60,000, they start to claw back through the tax system, some of the gain that you got from child benefit, until you get to £80,000, when they claw it all back. Now, I don't think the thresholds will be that high for winter fuel payment, they're talking about it being £35,000 and it being clawed back through the tax system so that people will pay it back. Now, there are some injustices in that, in that just like with high income child benefit, the problem you've got, well, let's do a simple example.

• 17:59Martin Lewis?

  You earn eighty thousand and your partner earns nothing. You don't get child benefit. Your two neighbours earn sixty thousand each. They get full child benefit because it's done on a high earner. But if I have to look at the balance of unfairness of comparing if they use a similar mechanism at thirty five thousand pounds to claw back winter fuel payments from people who earn above it, compared to the system we have right now, where the threshold is wrong and seven hundred thousand of the most vulnerable in society have lost out on winter fuel payment, it would definitely be a big improvement, if that's what they're going to do.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  Okay, and so what's the time scale now?

• 18:36Martin Lewis?

  Well, they say it'll be in place by this winter. We've got a spending review next week. It might be discussed then, it might be discussed later, it might wait as late as the budget, because I think the mechanism for doing this is pretty complicated, but they say it'll be this winter. But I have to say, the whole system I've just described is just from me reading what the papers are speculating that they've heard, that is not a government announcement.

• 19:01Speaker 02

  Okay, so the big topic this week is council tax, and there's this consultation afoot.

• 19:07Martin Lewis?

  Yes.

• 19:08Speaker 02

  I mean, is the issue with you just how the bandings are worked out? Or is the whole banding system flawed?

• 19:16Martin Lewis?

  Well, I mean, I would say the whole banding system is flawed, but they're not going to touch that in the consultation. I would think there is more chance of Elon Musk opening up a nail salon in Swindon than them touching the way banding works in the consultation. In fact, in the leaders debate I ran prior to the election, Keir Starmer said they wouldn't touch the banding. So the consultation that's coming out is about council tax administration. Now, I have to say, I'm already very happy about this, because when I was presenting Good Morning Britain, I got a big win on it. One of the things I've been campaigning on is the abysmal and atrocious way that debt is collected by council tax, way worse than any commercial company. If you miss a monthly payment on council tax, within two weeks, the council can ask you to pay for a year. Four weeks later, if you can't afford to pay for a year, how many people can afford

• 20:01Martin Lewis?

  to pay for a year if they miss a month? If you're missing a month, you're going to struggle to pay for a year. You know, there's a few people who are deliberately not paying, but if you can't afford... The month you're in trouble within four weeks, you can have bailiffs at your door asking for the entire year and for their costs on top. It is a rapid and aggressive system of debt collection that would make the banks blush. I've been campaigning on it through my Money and Mental Health Policy Institute charity because it disproportionately affects millions of people with mental health problems. But while interviewing Pat McFadden, who's the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, senior cabinet minister, I questioned him about this. And in the middle of the interview, he agreed that in the council tax consultation, they will look at reducing the rapidness of the debt collection and the aggressiveness of the debt collection in council tax.

• 20:47Martin Lewis?

  So that's the type of changes. I'd also like them to change the six month rule, which we're going to talk about later, which says that basically you can only do a proper appeal on your council tax banding if you within six months of moving into the property. Big alert for anyone moving house. This is one of your major tasks when you move house. Within the first six months, you need to look at checking your council tax band. There are ways around the six month rule in England and Wales, not in Scotland as much. And I'm going to talk to you about that. But I'd like them to change that too. And I also want to see improvement of the severe mental impairment, communication and standardization of how the severe mental impairment discount works, all of which we're going to come up. That's the politics when we do the practicals. There are four big reductions on council tax.

• 21:30Martin Lewis?

  One, check and challenge your band, 400,000 people in the wrong band, many worth due potentially thousands of pounds back. Two, are you missing out on a discount if you're a student or a carer or have a severe mental impairment or a single adult? Three, are you missing out on a reduction if you're on a low income? And four, which I'll probably only cover in the podcast, 800,000 homes are owed up to a share of 120 million pounds of back credit on council tax having overpaid. There's a lot to get through.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  Okay, we've got a success story on claiming back. Should we keep that dry?

• 22:01Martin Lewis?

  Is it check and challenge?

• 22:02Speaker 02

  It's, this is from Donna in Roanoke.

• 22:04Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, I think it's check and challenge. Let's, let's get that in because I think that'll set it up very well.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  Okay, Donna, how are you doing?

• 22:10Speaker 06

  Hi there, I'm fine, thank you. Lovely to speak to you.

• 22:14Speaker 02

  Go on, so fire away. Great to have you on, Donna. Tell us about your success story.

• 22:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, brilliant success. I saw Martin Lewis Money Programme and

• 22:23Martin Lewis?

  Very good show that on ITV, I like that show.

• 22:26Speaker 06

  It's fantastic, isn't it?

• 22:27Speaker 02

  I'm not sure about the presenter, but conceptually I think it's very good. Anyway, go on, Don.

• 22:32Speaker 06

  No, yeah, it was just, I just noticed it was on about the cheque and challenge about the council tax. So I didn't think anything of it. The payband was in Ban Day. I thought, yeah, it's fair enough. You know, run corn's run corn. Didn't think anything of it at all. And so we checked and I'm in a terraced house, row of terraced houses opposite me. There's semi-detached houses with driveways, there's detached houses and they were all in Ban Day. And I just thought, well, this isn't fair. So, yeah, I just looked at your step-by-step guide on my website and

• 23:06Martin Lewis?

  You do great plugs that I'm not allowed to do. I love it.

• 23:10Speaker 06

  No, honestly, it was just so easy because I thought, oh, do you know, I just, it was just the dread of it really. I thought, I'm not going to get anywhere, you know, challenging the council. You don't get anywhere with them. I know what they're like with the council tax, you know, like you've just been saying then. But no, it was that easy. It's literally fill the form out. No need even needed to come out and inspect. I didn't even get a phone call. I had three thousand pounds at the bank a month later and I was down to a ban day like all my other neighbours.

• 23:41Martin Lewis?

  So you got a backdated payout from when you moved in of three thousand pounds?

• 23:44Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 23:44Martin Lewis?

  Well done you. Oh, thank you so much for coming on.

• 23:47Speaker 06

  No, thank you because I wouldn't have had a clue about it.

• 23:49Martin Lewis?

  Oh, it's my pleasure and you're going to inspire people to understand how important this is. Brilliant.

• 23:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, it's brilliant. Brilliant. Thank you.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  Cheers, Donna. Thank you very much for coming on.

• 23:59Martin Lewis?

  So before we do the cheque and challenge, I want to go back in time and I want people to understand why there are so many homes in the wrong band. Now, what happened, we had the poll tax rats back in 1989. The poll tax was the predecessor. It replaced the ratable system of local taxation, which was based effectively on the value of your house. Then we went to the poll tax that was based on, you know, per person you paid, that's how much council tax you paid. And that rapidly had to be replaced because of societal unrest with the council tax, which Came in in nineteen ninety three. So to do valuations in nineteen ninety one in England, Scotland and Wales, though Wales has since been re-banded, as the others should have done, in two thousand and five, they did a stop-gap speed evaluation. Now, when I launched my check

• 24:44Martin Lewis?

  and challenge system, which is what we're going to talk about in a moment, in two thousand and seven, I spoke to one of the estate agents who was involved in that assessment, because I want you to understand how it works. Now, I've got a transcript of that, Adrian. Do you want to play me, or do you want to play the estate agent?

• 25:00Speaker 02

  I'm not worthy to play you. I'll be the estate agent.

• 25:02Martin Lewis?

  All right. So I've got you the transcript. We're going to try and act it out here.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 25:07Martin Lewis?

  So with the casting done, it's time for Adrian and I to go back to two thousand and seven with a little bit of amateur dramatics. Are you ready, darling? Shall we start?

• 25:21Speaker 02

  This is Tim, the estate agent. So we were given a list of properties at the start of the week, which would be around three to four hundred properties.

• 25:28Martin Lewis?

  Three to four hundred a week?

• 25:29Speaker 02

  A week. A list on Monday morning. We had to produce the valuations by Friday afternoon. And because of the pressures of other work, this was something that we were doing as an additional contract, we'd probably do all of those valuations in one day.

• 25:42Martin Lewis?

  Now, let's get this right. I've heard the term second-gear valuations.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:49Martin Lewis?

  Does that mean you weren't walking past, you were in the car doing it?

• 25:52Speaker 02

  You were in the car carrying out all the valuations at all times.

• 25:56Martin Lewis?

  So it's a bit like, uh, band C, uh, band D, uh, band E?

• 25:59Speaker 02

  Very, very much like that.

• 26:01Martin Lewis?

  So, the entire system of valuations in England and Scotland still is based on a stop-gap drive-by valuation that was only meant to last a year or two while they set the system up in nineteen ninety one. Now, when I first launched the check and challenge in two thousand and seven, I said how outrageous it was that it had been sixteen years and nothing had yet happened. That was two thousand and seven. This is twenty twenty five. For thirty four years, no party of any hue has been brave enough to say this was a rush job that was flawed at the start and has systemically left hundreds of thousands of homes in the wrong band. And that means

• 26:46Martin Lewis?

  It is potential for everybody listening to be in the wrong band. You may be in too lower band, you may be in too higher band. If you are in too higher band and you can get through the check and challenge system, you get your band lowered, as we've just heard, and you get a backdated payout. Now, I've heard of backdated payouts in the tens of thousands of pounds. And of course, as councils, we know their finances are struggling. But ultimately here, we are all reliant on a flawed system. This has been unjust and people are paying the wrong bands. And one of the big things that we'll talk about is literally, you can be in a street with identical houses and be in band B and everybody else is in band A. I mean, that is an absolute pausability because the way this valuation worked is they had a clipboard

• 27:30Martin Lewis?

  that may have been wrong, telling them the number of bedrooms. So they walked past, they were driving past, looked at the size. It's what Tim was telling me, the estate agent all those years ago. Looked at the size and went, oh, a band C. Well, if the data was wrong or if they looked wrong, you're in the wrong band.

• 27:42Speaker 04

  So if there was incorrect criteria to do the original valuations, that implies there is some correct, well, more correct criteria now?

• 27:51Martin Lewis?

  I don't think it's the criteria. I think it's the actual assessment.

• 27:55Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 27:55Martin Lewis?

  I mean, 400 in a day. I mean, they drove past the street and went, oh, bam, B, bam, C. I mean, it was, it was just like, it was, you know, there was a bit of picking it out there. Not totally, they had, they had some data, they had some lists, they knew the area. But this was never meant to last. This was just meant to be, oh, sugar, we've got to get the council tax in. Let's do it quickly and we'll do it properly in a couple of years. Which Wales did a valuation in 2003 and rebanded in 2005. And listen, there were winners and there were losers when it did that. But that was a proper valuation. The stopgap, second gear valuation. If you're in England and in Scotland, that's what dictates your price today. It's worth me noting Northern Ireland doesn't have council tax. So sorry to everyone in Northern Ireland, this isn't relevant for you today. Council tax cheque number one.

• 28:40Martin Lewis?

  Are you in one of hundreds of thousands of homes that's in the wrong band?

• 28:46Speaker 02

  Let's go through the cheques, sir.

• 28:47Martin Lewis?

  Okay, so we'll do the cheques before the challenges. The first cheque is very simple. It's the neighbours' cheque. Is your band higher than neighbours in preferably identical, if not in similar homes? Now, you don't need to ask them. You can simply check your band and your neighbours' bands at gov.uk in England and SAA.gov.uk in Scotland. You find out what the bands are. You can talk to the neighbours about the property. I need to just... The cheques that I'm doing here, these are the cheques to see if it's then worth doing much more investigation in the challenge. These are the spot cheques, if you like, to see if it's likely to be worthwhile. These are not your formal. So the first cheque is the neighbours' cheque. Makes sense?

• 29:29Speaker 02

  Okay. Richard is already sort of worried. He challenged the band. If it goes up instead of down, do you have to pay more?

• 29:36Martin Lewis?

  Absolutely. You cannot request that your band is lowered. You can simply ask them to reassess your banding. Now, let's just be plain. The problem with the neighbours' cheque is this. If you are in a higher band than neighbours in identical properties, it may be that they are all in too lower band and you are in the right band. And what you don't want to do is A, do an appeal and find your band goes up. Or worse, you get in touch with this and they put all your neighbours' bands up. Now, that-

• 30:05Speaker 02

  As long as they don't tell the neighbours why they're doing it.

• 30:07Martin Lewis?

  Oh, it all comes out and it's happened. And this is because people do this speculatively without doing the proper cheques. Now, when I invented this system back in 2007, of course, I mean, I didn't invent council tax challenging, but I tried to formulate how you do it.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:20Martin Lewis?

  I came up with this second cheque. And the second cheque is called the valuation cheque. Now, it's very important for me to say, when you go on to the challenge later, the valuation cheque is not evidential. You cannot use it in the challenge. They won't look at it. This is just my second cheque that gives you-

• 30:36Speaker 02

  To inform your decision.

• 30:37Martin Lewis?

  To inform your decision of whether it's likely you're in too higher band or your neighbours are in too lower band. And I would absolutely not go any further unless you pass both cheques. And I've never heard of, I can't say it didn't happen, but I've had tens of thousands of successes on this, I suspect, that type of scale. I've never heard of anyone having their band up if they'd passed both checks. Okay. So the second check is the valuation check, which is effectively, what was your house worth in 1991? That's because the bands were still in, not only were they last valued in 1991, but they're still based on 1991 prices. So for example, in England, a band

• 31:17Martin Lewis?

  A is under 40 grand, a band B is 40 to 52,000, a band C is 52,000 to 68, a band D is 68 to 88,000, a band E 88,000 to 120 grand, a band F 120 grand to 160, a band G 160,000 to 320,000, and a band H over 320,000. Well, 320,000 isn't that big a house price anymore. So you know, if it were on today's prices, everyone, you know, half the country would be in band H. So what do you do? Well, if you bought your house in or after 1991, take the price and sale date, if it's earlier, take the price and sale date, and then you need to back calculate the value in 1991 prices, which people can work out where, as I've been doing this, there are free tools on the internet that will do this for you,

• 32:01Martin Lewis?

  Adrian, that's all I can say. There are free tools that will do this for you. If you bought your house before 1991, it gets trickier. And let me say right now, the system is imperfect. I do not have answers for everything. We're trying to battle an antiquated valuation system based on antiquated data. But what you would do is you'd find a property that was identical or similarly yours, find out what year it sold on Zoopla and Rightmove and what the prices are, and you'd back calculate that. So if both checks, your neighbour's checks, you're in too high a band, and it looks like that you are still in too high a band in 1991 prices, when you back calculate what your house was worth in 1991, then I think it's safe to move on to looking at challenging it. Okay. So Martin says we've

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Discovered that our leasehold house was first sold new in ninety seven for less than its council tax band valuation adjusted for inflation between ninety one and ninety seven, which would have put it in a lower band. If we challenge the valuation office to correct it, are we likely to get a band reduction?

• 32:59Martin Lewis?

  Irrelevant. Everything you've told me is irrelevant because valuations in that sense are not what the valuation office agency looked at. What they're looking at is are you wrong compared to similar property and identical properties? The neighbour's cheque is the more important one. You've got this given me the secondary cheque. If you're also saying all my neighbours are in a lower band than me and they're in similar or identical properties, then yes, what you're telling me is important. Otherwise, valuation is not evidential.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  And Adrian says, how do we go about challenging the band we are in when there are no identical houses in our street?

• 33:33Martin Lewis?

  It's really difficult. And in fact, let me go through the technicals of the challenge now, which will answer that question. Okay, so when you challenge, you, step one is to submit a formal or if you have to in an informal review process, formal is better, it is a set process, but it's available to far fewer people. Because for a formal process, you must have moved in in the property within the last six months, which I think we've probably got a question on that.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  Oh, yes, I've challenged my council tax band this year as of March twenty five and they have said that because it has been more than six months since I moved in, I can't challenge it.

• 34:12Martin Lewis?

  Right, well, the big question here is where are you? So, England and Wales, there is a formal and an informal process. Scotland, there is only a formal process. If you've moved into your house in Scotland over six months ago and you think you're in the wrong band, I would say it is nearly impossible to challenge it. I spoke to the Scottish, the head of the Scottish Assessors Association about it when I did a show on it in the past. And she says, we won't say it's impossible, but you know, there has to be some serious error. Now, one of the arguments that you can use here is the council tax office have to, by statute, to maintain the integrity of the list. So if you believe you're the fundamental error of your council tax banding, you can challenge them on the, they're not administratively doing their job properly.

• 34:56Martin Lewis?

  It's really, really hard and it's not for people who don't have, can't grit their teeth and focus on something, you know, it's going to be a big job. So let's go to the formal challenge. In general, you must have lived in the property for six months or less. This is renters can do this as well as people who own. But if you're a renter, courtesy would indicate tell your landlord before you do that. You may also be able to formally challenge if the property has fundamentally changed. For example, it's changed from a house into flats or its use has changed. For example, some of it is now being used for a business. Or the local area has changed, for example, a nightclub's been built next door and it's fundamentally not the value. In Scotland, you may also be able to form a challenge formally.

• 35:39Martin Lewis?

  If there has been a material, significant drop in property prices where you are, but that is Scotland only. So technically, no evidence is needed in a formal challenge, but I would do the evidence I'm going to talk about. The informal challenge is for those people who say you can't challenge because you've lived there too long, which is exactly like that question you just had. And this is all about the VOA having a legal duty to uphold the integrity of the council tax lists. But to do an informal challenge, you must provide compelling evidence that you are in the wrong band. So you can see what we're talking about here is the criteria for the challenge is different. If it's a formal challenge, you can say to them, I think I'm in the wrong band. Can you have a look at it?

• 36:21Martin Lewis?

  And here's why. If it's an informal challenge, it's hardcore preparation to get in and really push your case in England and Scotland that there's compelling evidence, not that you're on the border of being in the wrong band, but you are manifestly in the wrong band.

• 36:39Martin Lewis?

  Right. Okay.

• 36:42Martin Lewis?

  So I'm talking, so if, if you can do informal or formal, which should you go for? Always do formal if you're able to do formal. Your formal informal is for those who can't do formal. So always do formal first. That, that, now, when it comes to challenging, again, in England and Wales.

• 37:01Martin Lewis?

  There's a brilliant thing that you need to get and it's called, and people don't know about this, it's called your property attribute details that is held by the valuation office agency. So the way you get this, I'm sorry, it's convoluted. You go to gov.uk, you go to the contact VOA, valuation office agency page, you select council tax, then you select other, then you type in, request my pad, P A D. Alternatively, you can call the VOA, but their phone lines will be busy on 0303000501501, 03000501501. They'll normally come within five days, but this and the podcast will probably mean it lasts longer.

• 37:45Martin Lewis?

  So this is, now, everybody, even though you can't get a pad in Scotland, you need to understand what's on your pad because this is what they're looking at when they're establishing, are you in the right band and comparing you to other properties. Let me talk through what's on your property attribute details now. The property type, is it end of terrace or semi-detached? The property age, is it Victorian or post-war? The number of floors? The number of bedrooms? That includes bedrooms not currently being used as bedrooms. So if you've turned a bedroom into a home office, that's a bedroom. The number of bathrooms, though that excludes toilets with only a sink, it's got to be a proper bathroom, not just a loo. The number of rooms, the living room, dining room, study, exclude conservatories, the utility room and kitchens.

• 38:27Martin Lewis?

  And the floor area, the size of the property measured in square meters. So many people who go through, once you're in the challenge phase, they are on their hands and knees measuring floor property or they're using the floor property measure they got when they bought to see if it matches up to your pad. All of those things, once you've got your pad, is go through it line by line, because if it's incorrect, that may be strength towards rebrand.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  But if it was only done on the basis of a drive-by valuation, how could the pad possibly be accurate?

• 38:53Martin Lewis?

  Well, the valuation of your band was a drive-by valuation, but the pad details were stored and it was the interrelation between the two, which is how the valuation was done. Yeah, but that doesn't, you know, these, these things aren't necessarily right, but it's always worth going through that. And the reason it's worth going through that is what you then have to do, the next step is, and you know, this isn't easy to do, but we're talking tens of thousands of pounds for people, is identify similar or identical properties in the lower band. So you did that for my checks, now that was, that was your... Should I be looking at this? Should I be doing further work? Now we're in the...

• 39:30Speaker 02

  So what you do, go round your neighbour's house with a tape measure, say, can I measure your, can I measure your toilet?

• 39:34Martin Lewis?

  As best as you can, or if not, find their sales data and the floor plans that are available, when they were sold, on, on the property prices near you. You're looking for same street or estate. That's really important. That helps, although in very rural areas, because you have to submit these, you have to submit the identical properties you are arguing are in a lower band than yours. In rural areas, it will accept up to 10 miles difference. But if you're in a city, you're looking at same street estate, same style or features. You can't compare a semi to a flat. Similar age, you can't compare a new build to pre-1900s. Similar size, usually within a maximum 10% difference, but closer is better. To find those, speak to other occupiers or try property sales site,

• 40:16Martin Lewis?

  or if needed, you can go to the land registry for a small fee, which has records of other properties. And then, I'm nearly there, sorry everyone, then you submit your challenge. In England, it's gov.uk/challengeYourCouncillTaxBand. You can phone or email or write to the VOA. In Scot- and in Scotland, Wales is the same. In Scotland, it's saa.gov.uk/makeaproposeal. Include a description of your property and any disagreement with the pad. If you think the pad is wrong, that's very important. Plus, addresses, descriptions, evidence of lower-banded homes. There are free templates available online. The outcomes, success, woo-hoo, backdated. Formal rejection, you can appeal within time limits. informal rejection, that's probably it,

• 40:58Martin Lewis?

  unless you find new data that has a substantial change in it. That is the check and challenge.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  We're into council tax. First, a Stephen in Wiltshire said he's just seen Elon Musk walk into a nail salon in Swindon. I can't explain what that's all about.

• 41:15Martin Lewis?

  I, I said it is less likely than Elon Musk setting up a nail salon in Swindon.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  You never said they wouldn't walk in.

• 41:22Martin Lewis?

  I didn't say wouldn't walk in. If he's walked in, does he own it? That's what, go back in and ask it.

• 41:26Speaker 02

  Or is he gonna make an offer? This is from Caroline in Birmingham. I just found my council this morning after several phone calls, emails about my mum's council tax, which you received a court summons for non-payment. From when she died, it's been a nightmare distressing. I had to contact my MP. This needs investigating because she she was charged from the day she died. It turns out she was in credit.

• 41:47Martin Lewis?

  Council tax debt collection is a nightmare system. When you talk to the debt counselling agencies, they you know, they talk about commercial lenders, but the one that they save the shake of their head is council tax. It is more vicious, more aggressive and more rapid than any other form of mainstream debt collection in the UK. That's why I cried a little bit when I got the win that they're going to consult on changing the way it works. Millions of people's lives are destroyed. The fact that you can't pay a month and you then have to pay a year and you have bailiffs to your door. The story that that got me involved in this is through my charity money and mental health policy institute of the woman who got

• 42:30Martin Lewis?

  her council tax demand for a miss payment because of delays in the post on Christmas Eve. And she had to pay a year's worth by Christmas Day or the bailiffs were coming round. This is a woman with severe mental health problems. Who was turned into total anxiety, who therefore got a credit card out to pay it. She took out a new credit card at forty percent interest rate that she could never afford to pay. And it absolutely catastrophizes and destroyed her finances. Constituents treated worse than customers. And that's why I've been campaigning to change. And that's just another symptom of it. And I hope this consultation, I hope will come out in the next month. I haven't got a date for it. I'm hoping it'll be in the next month.

• 43:09Martin Lewis?

  And they've told me it will include changes to getting, you know, just reducing the rapid and aggressive debt collection, which I should note doesn't mean councils bring in more money. Telling people to pay money they haven't got just means it adds cost to the individual, cost to the council and cost to the NHS because of the mental health impact that it has on so many people. So it isn't a clever system for anyone and I'm very pleased and I'm thankful to the government for saying they'll look at it.

• 43:34Speaker 02

  Just a quick one from Travis Childs. There's not many Childs is about, so there must be distant cousin Travis.

• 43:41Martin Lewis?

  I wonder if he calls himself Chili's or something, so there isn't, so people don't connect you.

• 43:44Speaker 02

  Yes, no, it may be. Why wouldn't he want to be connected?

• 43:47Martin Lewis?

  No, because he just, it's the mastermind school. He's probably embarrassed of the mastermind school.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  Says that he lives in a fairly Modis bungalow, bungalow, bungalow, bungalow band F. Next door is triple the size of their house and are on a lower tax band. Why is this? What can we do to reduce or challenge our band?

• 44:02Martin Lewis?

  Well, why is it? Because the whole system is fundamentally flawed. That's a very simple answer, which I hope I've explained so far.

• 44:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:08Martin Lewis?

  But what you don't know is they may have expanded their house and not been revalued. In which case, you know, if you don't do the checks properly, all that will happen by you going to the council is they will say, oh, we hadn't spotted that. Let's put them up a band or two. You don't know that you're in too lower band. You just know there's a difference and the fact they've had an expansion may not mean it's been rebanded. So they're still being valued on what the house was in advance. So I'd be careful on that one. Council tax check number two. Are you missing out on a discount on your council tax?

• 44:40Speaker 02

  Discounts. Who gets them?

• 44:42Martin Lewis?

  Okay, so I'm afraid again, and I'm sorry if this programme is being complicated, folks, but it is complicated. It's not me who does the system. These are discounts. What everybody needs to understand is the full council tax bill is based on two or more qualifying adults living in the property. If you are not in that situation, you may be due a discount. An adult is simply somebody aged 18 or older. There are four categories of discount, but they interact in relatively complicated ways. So let me give you the categories first. Somebody aged under 18, a minor. We're going to call them a minor from now on. A full-time student on a minimum one-year course.

• 45:26Martin Lewis?

  We're going to call them students, but they're a full-time student. Somebody with a severe mental impairment. This is the one that is commonly missed out and that I'm campaigning to get better clarification on it. A severe mental impairment is currently defined as an impairment of intelligence and social functioning which appears to be permanent. It is common with Alzheimer's, dementia, severe strokes, severe Parkinson's. To qualify as having a severe mental impairment, you need to have had a doctor certified that you have an SMI. Councils have different forms. I want to standardise the form. It makes it too complicated. You'll need to get the doctor to sign the form.

• 46:06Martin Lewis?

  And you will need to be getting one of a number of benefits like attendance allowance, disability, living allowance, personal independence payments. Some of those are non-means tested benefits. So it isn't necessarily about means tested going through in it. In England and Wales, you will need to be getting that benefit. In Scotland, you can just be eligible for the benefit, even if you're not getting it. But if you're eligible and not getting it, you should be getting it, is what I'd also say. So we've now got three categories, minors, students, SMI, severe mental impairments. Fourth category, this is a different one, is live-in carers. So that's someone who is carrying over thirty-five hours a week of care, not for your spouse or partner or a child under the age of eighteen.

• 46:50Martin Lewis?

  Right, so you've got those four categories. If there are two qualifying adults living in the house, even if they're living with a host of people who are discounted for council tax, minors, students, SMI, you pay a hundred percent because there are two adults. So the two adults always override everything else. If there is one adult living in the house with somebody who is discounted, severe mental impairment, student, minor, or a carer, you get a twenty-five percent reduction. So that's the single adult discount. A single adult gets a twenty-five percent reduction. And you still get that even if you're living with someone who is discounted for council tax purposes, which are the categories I mentioned earlier.

• 47:33Martin Lewis?

  If everybody in the household is discounted, so let's say an all-student household, or perhaps two people who both have severe mental impairment, you do not pay council tax. And then the one slightly hybrid category, if somebody with a severe mental impairment is living with a carer and no other adults, you get a fifty percent discount. So those are the discounts. So what you need to be looking at is you see the complicated interrelation, but the thing that always trumps that, that people need to understand is two adults, you pay the full amount, even if you're living with 12 under 18s and four students, you pay the full amount because it's about the number of qualifying adults in the house that goes for it. Now, if you're suddenly listening to that and going, hold on, I didn't

• 48:17Martin Lewis?

  think I was entitled to the single person discount because I live with my kids or I live with my son who's a student and he's 19. So I didn't think I would get it. You do get it. Get in touch with them. Whether you will get it backdated to the moment that it happened to you is council by council. For severe mental impairment in Wales, because they listened to the campaign asks, and I was very pleased and they credited us with this, they have standardized information and standardized backdating for severe mental impairments cases. So people get big backdated payouts on severe mental impairments. Julie, hello. Can't thank you enough for the amazing advice. So I wasn't bit I meant to read. And you have given on your show, which has been invaluable in dealing with my disabled brother's affairs since losing our dad. I'm very happy to tell you, I filled

• 48:59Martin Lewis?

  in the SMI forms for my brother who has a brain tumor. And now not only does he never have to pay council tax again, so he's probably living by himself, he received a refund of over £2,000. Thank you. But backdating is not standardized. It's council by council.

• 49:11Speaker 02

  Pam's got a question. Why should single occupants pay three quarters of what a dual income couple pay? Why not 50%? It's a tax on single people. Why aren't adult children living at home with mommy and daddy taxed? Why aren't all adults taxed at equal level? Couples with kids are getting away with free services, which those without kids living at home are paying for. Whole system is screwed. I think skewed to families with large number of kids.

• 49:36Martin Lewis?

  And I can answer that very simply. The reason that happens is because the rules say so.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 49:42Martin Lewis?

  That's it. Now, interestingly, people often say, why is it 25 not a 50% discount? Well, I think that's based on an assumption that a household has two adults in. Some households have four adults in. So where do you set the discount? This is what happened. Let's go back. The poll tax replaced the rate system. The poll tax said, the amount of council tax you pay depends on the number of people living in your house. It was actually seen to be a very regressive system. You know, poorer families living in a small house where there are five adults sharing would pay five times as much as a couple in a huge house who were very wealthy. And it was seen to be hugely unfair and there were riots. For those not old enough to remember, you and I are Adrian, it's nineteen eighty nine. There were literal riots in the streets over it.

• 50:25Martin Lewis?

  And it was one of the things that brought down the Thatcher government. So, I mean, it was a huge thing. They then came up with council tax pretty quickly. Council tax is roughly based on the valuation of your property, although it's done in bands. And it's done in the valuation of your property, but then it's a hybrid because it depends on how much your council wants to raise money. So if you live in an area where the council tax is low, you can be paying in a band H, paying less than someone where the council tax is high in a band D. And that's also an injustice that goes on out there. And then because there was an argument saying, what about single people? At the last minute, if I remember this rightly, and I was quite young at the time, they put in the single person discount to, as a sop to those people who are living by themselves at twenty five percent.

• 51:09Martin Lewis?

  Why does it work like that? Because stuff happens and that how it's worked. Is it just, of course, it's not just, the whole system's completely bonkers. A whole system of local taxation doesn't really work, should have been re-banded and is completely unfair. But no political party, I mean, some of the smaller parties are promising they would do if they actually did it and get in government. They won't do a re-banding. Why? Because there'll be winners as well as losers and it would be incredibly unpopular, even though it'd be just, right? Even though, of course, if we're going to have the council tax system, the fact that we've got much bigger variation of house prices with huge houses worth tens of millions and in one area, that should all be factored in. Of course, it won't be though, because no one is brave enough to touch it. And if they do touch it, they'd probably scrap the whole system and some argue about

• 51:51Martin Lewis?

  local income tax and lots of other things, because tax is political. That's why it works that way. Council tax check number three. Are you one of potentially two and a quarter million people on lower incomes who are due a reduction but aren't getting it?

• 52:09Speaker 02

  Reduction then.

• 52:10Martin Lewis?

  Okay, so there is council tax support worth up to £1,500 a year missed out by possibly two and a quarter million people. It's the reduction is those primarily for those on lower incomes and in some cases it can cut your council tax bill by up to 100%. Now, you can be due both a discount that we've talked about and a reduction, that's why I'm categorising them separately. The reductions often apply to people who are on universal credits and means-tested benefits or pension credit. But this is the thing I need to shout and this is the reason I believe why two and a quarter, potentially two and a quarter, those aren't government stats, those are stats you're in an agency I work with, potentially two and a quarter people are missing out.

• 52:56Martin Lewis?

  You have to apply for council tax benefit separately. You do not automatically get it if you are on universal credit or pension credit. Council tax benefit and the exact qualifying criteria are dictated by your council and the reduction is dictated by your council and you have to apply to your council. So we do not have a joined up system between the central government benefits and the council tax benefit. And because of that, and because many people assume they would automatically get it if they were entitled to it, millions miss out on it.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  Okay, Kate, so what are the thresholds to be entitled to council tax benefit? Government websites don't specify any figures nor do council tax, nor do individual council websites.

• 53:44Martin Lewis?

  Well, some individual council websites do, but not all of them do. My honest answer is if you think you may qualify, apply. What's the worst that can happen? They say no. You know, I go back to my, to my major subtext here. I started off by saying council tax is broken. I think you're starting to see why I say that. And I hope that the government consultation will improve that somewhat.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  Why isn't a council tax a flat rate, given we all benefit equally for its service? It must have been, but police, fire services, bin collection, etc.

• 54:11Martin Lewis?

  Well, do we though? Do people, whether more people in a household, you would argue, probably use more services. Lower income households probably use more council services than other services. All of those things are part of the political equation. But why is it? Because, it's what I've just explained, because it is. And there was riots when it was done on a single person basis, which was regressive. The single, the poll tax was a regressive tax, yeah.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  How does it work with flats, says Gemma. I have customers playing the same as me. I'm in a three bed house for a flat that has other flats in it. Does that mean the council is getting four lots of council tax for one property?

• 54:42Martin Lewis?

  Well, it will be getting four lots of council tax. But as discussed earlier, you can do a formal challenge to your band, even if you haven't moved in within six months, if there was a change of usage. So if a house is split up into flats, you can formally challenge.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  Okay, but it's an identical house to yours, which happens to have been converted to four flats. They will be getting four lots of council tax from it.

• 55:01Martin Lewis?

  Yes, but one would presume that the people who are in the flats should be paying less council tax than you should, because they don't have the same property that you do.

• 55:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, but those four will add up to more than your one.

• 55:09Martin Lewis?

  Well, they may add up. I mean, if it wasn't re-banded and they're all in the same band as you, it'll add up to a hell of a lot more than one. So it just depends on the property there. Adrian, I think we should stop at this point. Let's have a bit of a break and let's play this.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  It's a break for you. Not for me. I don't like this, but I do it every week.

• 55:27Martin Lewis?

  You do like it.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Because it's you.

• 55:29Martin Lewis?

  You do like it, really. We'll have a little bit of a break from council tax to do my money mastermind with Adrian, where Adrian has currently got nine right in the three option multiple choice and 17 wrong, which means, Adrian, if you get it wrong today, you go back to only being as good as random chance. Okay, so it's quite an important one.

• 55:50Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 55:51Martin Lewis?

  Hallelujah, everybody. Mr Charles and I have been doing this podcast together for a pregnant nine months now. Finally, Adrian is beginning to get it. He's checked his personal savings allowance status, realised he's over the limit and decided to use a cash ISA, a savings account where the interest is never taxed. All good. He wants to put some in easy access and lock some away at a guaranteed rate in a fixed. That is a decent level of fiscal understanding by Adrian. The question he has though is can he contribute to two different new cash ISAs in this new tax year?

• 56:35Martin Lewis?

  It's all very sensible. So, Mr Charles, my question to you is can you help Adrian Huntley, who emailed in with that question, by supplying the answer? See, the gag, if you missed it, was the Adrian who was sensible, wasn't you? Just in case you did, I didn't write it that well. How many different cash ISAs can you contribute to in this current tax year? That excludes transferring past year ISA, so we're only talking about new money going in. A, only one. B, one or two only. Or C, as many as you like?

• 57:09Speaker 02

  Um.

• 57:12Martin Lewis?

  What's your thinking?

• 57:16Speaker 02

  Well, I should, I feel as if there's one, I really should know, but I don't. And I can't imagine it's an infinite number because we've all got limits. I can't imagine.

• 57:25Martin Lewis?

  Well, you always have a £20,000 limit. There's a limit to the amount you could put in. So you could argue, you could argue on that basis, it would have to be a theoretical limit of a minimum pound opening 20,000 cash ISAs, but we're not going to that.

• 57:37Speaker 02

  All right, I would say you can, well, given that then, and thanks for your help, and you're obviously leading me down to the wrong answer.

• 57:47Martin Lewis?

  No, I was just, I was just being technical because it was a rather strange assertion.

• 57:51Speaker 02

  Okay, so I'm going to go for as many as you like, as long as you don't exceed the, I know the expression on your face, I've got it right, all right.

• 58:00Martin Lewis?

  So what, you think you've got it right or wrong?

• 58:01Speaker 02

  Just something about your face, I couldn't explain what it is.

• 58:04Martin Lewis?

  So tell, tell us whether you think you've got it right or wrong from what you saw on my face?

• 58:08Speaker 02

  Well, I assume I've got it wrong because I assume I've got everything wrong, but I think it's.

• 58:11Martin Lewis?

  From the look on my face?

• 58:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 58:14Martin Lewis?

  Okay, so Adrian, ever since ISAs were set up, there's been a limit on the amount of money that you can have in. And you've been able to open a cash ISA and a stocks and shares ISA in the same year. But you've only been able to open one of each type.

• 58:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 58:34Martin Lewis?

  But.

• 58:37Martin Lewis?

  From the 6th of April 2024, the rules were changed. And the rules were changed and the restriction on subscribing to one ISA of each type in a year was removed. You may now open as many different ISAs of one type, for example, a cash ISA. You can have a fix and you can have two different easy access cash ISAs, all of which you've opened and put new money into within the one tax year. Play the hallelujah.

• 59:11Martin Lewis?

  Oh, look at the smile.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  Just of cheating, random chance.

• 59:19Martin Lewis?

  Adrian, you are statistically with the score of 1017. I don't know what that is. You are about 5 to 6% more bright than random chance.

• 59:29Speaker 02

  I'll settle for that. That's too generous to me, but I'll settle for that. Can I get a t-shirt, mate?

• 59:34Martin Lewis?

  What?

• 59:34Speaker 02

  With that on it. I am 5% cleverer than random chance.

• 59:38Martin Lewis?

  We should probably sell that, shouldn't we? It should be the podcast marketing. Money Mastermind at the bottom end of it.

• 59:46Martin Lewis?

  Have you got any more council tax questions? I know loads have come in.

• 59:48Speaker 02

  Somebody has got in touch. We put a claim into the Valuation Office in December 2024. Told us it could take 90 days to deal with or up to six months. We've passed that second date upon complaint about the timescale. I'm now told it could take 12 months. It's a formal council tax ban challenge with robust evidence.

• 1:00:05Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, so formal council tax bans challenges are taking up to six months. Informal are taking longer. I will take some of the blame to that. I did a special on my TV show in November and that has just mean there's a lot more demand going into the formal and informal appeals than there will be beforehand and this podcast is going to exacerbate the situation. The Valuation Office Agency say they're investing in better technology in order to be able to speed up the process, but this ain't going to be quick. Remember though, if you do have a case, it's backdated back to when you moved in or 1993, whichever of those is later. So you won't actually miss out. It would just be a cash flow. But yeah, the challenge is not quick.

• 1:00:47Martin Lewis?

  Now, we're in the pod only bit, but I do want to do this final council tax check for you. There is over £100 million of overpaid council tax belonging to 800,000 homes. To reclaim it, you just use the council's online form, or you can call or email, but don't call or email unless you're pretty sure you've got something. Try and use the online form if you can. We don't want to unnecessarily clog up council call centres. You are most likely owed this money if you moved out of a council area since 1993, and you weren't paying by direct debit. Because if you were, it's easier for them to track you down. This is about money they owed you in back pay. Why might you be owed money? Well, it might be that you paid in advance. For example, you paid 10

• 1:01:31Martin Lewis?

  months of the year, but you moved out before the end of the year. It might be that you forgot to cancel your payment after you moved out. Or it might be that you're due a retrospective refund. So for example, your property was re-banded because someone challenged after you moved out. You're actually still owed that money in back pay if you were living there beforehand. So those are all the right circumstances to check if you're owed money and back credit by your council. But again, it's primarily for those who weren't paying by direct debit and have moved out of a council tax area since 1993. If you have, well, you might want to go and check your old account to see if you owed any money.

• 1:02:13Martin Lewis?

  Right, so I'm joined by PPS podcast producer Simon to talk through some more of your council tax questions now. It was an interesting one that, Simon. It's quite difficult to talk through on the radio because it's so complex and technical. But I suppose one of the advantages of a podcast is hopefully people can slow it down and listen back to it and listen to it through a few times. But it is always worth supplementing with the, and I have to be careful how I phrase this, the good information guides that you can go through step by step that are available online. Hopefully, talking you through it gives you a sense, but you're going to do the step by step. It's better to follow something that's written.

• 1:02:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, we should get Donna back. She was able to run through where you can get this information.

• 1:02:50Martin Lewis?

  We should do. I'm not sure I'm allowed to do that.

• 1:02:53Speaker 04

  There was loads of questions on this. I think council tax. Things that people find a bit overwhelming, so it's good to break it down.

• 1:02:58Martin Lewis?

  Well, it's, do you know, I was just talking to Adrian about this as we finished off air. There's an argument that this is real flaw in democracy. Because clearly the system is unfair and it's badly structured, but there aren't particular votes in fixing it, even though there's fairness in fixing it. Because if you do change the system, there will always be a lot of winners, but there will also always be a lot of losers. And losers tend to be more vocal and more upset about a problem than winners are grateful. Politics is inelastic, it doesn't work on both ways, which is one of the reasons why we're still sitting with this 1991 valuation, dictating the position everyone's in. Anyway, let's do those questions.

• 1:03:37Speaker 04

  So this one from Maria in North Yorkshire. I started the process of questioning my council tax band and my council told me in no uncertain terms, they would happily do this, but strongly advise that it could be re-banded to a higher band, in which case that would be backdated and I'd be liable to pay the difference. Is this true?

• 1:03:54Martin Lewis?

  It's interesting. We don't often see a backdated of an up-banding. I haven't heard that happen very many times, but it's certainly possible that it could happen. But this goes back to the premise I've been talking. You are only asking for them to reassess your band, which is why you need to be really diligent on going through the entire process of the first two checks and then the whole challenge mechanism of finding identical, or if not very similar, properties to you that are in a lower band than yours and making sure that you've done that sense check of the valuation check to check that it isn't that those properties are in the wrong band, rather than you are in the wrong band. If you've done all of those things, then, you know, you've got your commitment, go for it.

• 1:04:37Martin Lewis?

  But if you haven't done all the checks, you should never be doing this speculatively because your band can be put up.

• 1:04:42Speaker 04

  Sandra wants to know, can I get a reduction if I get attendance allowance?

• 1:04:47Martin Lewis?

  So there's no direct reduction for attendance allowance. Attendance allowance is another underclaimed benefit, a non-mains tested benefit for people of state pension age who need help of support either during the day or during the night or both. But the fact that you need attendance allowance could be evidential that you have a severe mental impairment, but I don't know the reason that you get attendance allowance. If attendance allowance is only for a physical disability, then it probably wouldn't, it won't be evidential of it, you needing a severe mental impairments. But if it is due to something that affects your social functioning, then it could be. It's also worth noting for people with physical disabilities that you are able potentially,

• 1:05:28Martin Lewis?

  if you have to make adjustments to your property, to have your council tax band lowered because you've made adjustments to your property, but that is then reassessed on a year by year basis. Attendance allowance in its own right does not give you a council tax benefit. All I'm saying is it may be evidence that you might be entitled to a severe mental impairment council tax discount.

• 1:05:48Speaker 04

  Sharon's actually been in touch, she is asking, why is my son's council tax the same as mine? I have a two bed house, his flat is literally smaller than my upstairs.

• 1:05:56Martin Lewis?

  Well, what you haven't said to me is where his flat is. Right, so bands are location based as well and age based and many other factors. So if his flat's next door to you, then that would seem unjust. If his flat is in a different area that's potentially more expensive, it would seem less unjust. So it's very difficult to say, but why? Because this is a system based on valuations back in 1991, assuming you're in England and Scotland, and he may well be in the wrong band. So he should absolutely be going through the two checks, the neighbours' check and the valuation check I started the programme with, to see if he is in the wrong band. But it is perfectly possible he isn't.

• 1:06:31Speaker 04

  And Karen wants to know, how is it fair that houses worth millions pay less than a house worth £350,000 in different areas?

• 1:06:40Martin Lewis?

  Well, clearly it isn't fair, but that's the system that we have. And there are always going to be problems in any form of system. So, you know, you could have a local income tax, but then the people who earn most, who tend to use the system less, would say this is unfair because I'm paying more because I've got more income, but I access council services less. You can have a poll tax where it's done per head, but when there's a lot of people living in the house, they would argue they don't use five times the services. Why should they pay five times as much? I mean, on an absolutely certain basis, the has been huge change in property prices in the UK since the 1991 valuations, and that hasn't been taken into account. So there's clearly a lack of fairness in that. And clearly there are there are problems that it's council by council, but then some

• 1:07:23Martin Lewis?

  would argue, hey, you choose and elect your council, so that's a function of local democracy. But that's all getting into the political theory, and I think I'm going to basically swiftly whistle, walk away, not get involved in the middle of that and try and just focus on the way that council taxes we currently have it is administered and the problems with that and trying to save people money on it. But yeah, fair, what is fair, discuss.

• 1:07:46Speaker 04

  Yeah. Colin sent this one in saying, how do you challenge a new build house?

• 1:07:51Martin Lewis?

  New builds are always trickier because they weren't valued back in 1991. However, assuming the valuation was done right when the new build was set up, intuitively, I would think there are fewer errors in valuing new builds than there are in older properties because the valuation one would hope would have been done properly by the valuation office agency when the new build was set up, as opposed to the second gear valuation system that was put in place in 1991, which was only meant to be a suit quickly done stopgap. So I think it is always more difficult with a new build property, and we need to start from the premise that it is perhaps, and that's only an intuitive, not an evidential statement,

• 1:08:33Martin Lewis?

  that it is perhaps less likely to be in the wrong band because the system of valuation was different. If you are going to do it, you would start with the neighbours' cheque first of all. Are you in a different band to all neighbours in similar or identical properties? Are you in a higher band? Then you would go on to the valuation. Check and you would work out back calculating what your property was worth in 1991, even though it didn't exist when. And that's what the the online tools do for you. They take a price. You say, well, my property was worth 220,000 when I bought it in 2011. And it converts that using standard house price inflation, taking it back the other way to what it was worth back in 1991. And that would give you your second sense check.

• 1:09:13Martin Lewis?

  Therefore, you are actually going through the same process, but it is just more difficult because then finding identical properties elsewhere outside, if you were a one off build as opposed to within an estate can be more difficult too. I go back to what I started the program with. The system is imperfect and I can't fix everything. So I would only go forward with your challenge if you are really strongly seeing evidence that you are in the wrong band if you're in the new build. If you're not sure, I would probably stamp and swear a bit and get on with my life.

• 1:09:46Speaker 04

  Well, so Angela in Orkney, I don't know if being in Scotland sort of changes this. She's sort of worried about whether or not she should challenge. So our house is in band B unchanged since 1993. There are similar sized houses in the area on band A, but we built a small extension five years ago. Would the extension be taken into account if we challenge?

• 1:10:04Martin Lewis?

  Yes, but almost certainly you can't challenge anyway. You've been living in the property for over six months. It's virtually impossible to do in Scotland. There's no informal challenge route. So again, stamp, swear, get on with your life.

• 1:10:17Speaker 04

  This is anonymous one. It is hard to identify sales prices pre 1991, which is the information required to challenge it.

• 1:10:24Martin Lewis?

  No, again, I need to be very technical. The valuation check of sales prices pre 1991 is not evidential when you're challenging your band. It's a safety check for you to know whether it's you who is in too higher band or your neighbours in similar or identical properties who are in too lower band. As for finding it, what you would need to do is look at the sales price of a similar or identical property post 1991 or more recently, and then convert that into 1991 prices. So you don't actually have to do it. But remember, it's just a safety check. Valuations don't really work in the appeal system. It's more about you are in an unfairness of being in a higher band compared to neighbours in similar or properties or identical properties preferably.

• 1:11:11Speaker 04

  Success story to end on. We challenged our band in in 2012 when Martin first highlighted the issue. We had been on band F for 17 years. The neighbours in an identical house were on band E. We had a rebate of £8,500. The reduced payments since then have saved us over £20,000.

• 1:11:28Martin Lewis?

  Wow. Well, well done and well done for everybody who's gone through the process. It's not a simple process to do in some cases. It is in other cases. It's always worth doing a check. I hope it hasn't been too complicated for you today. I've tried to do my best. I even got into talking quite slowly and seriously at one point to try and get it across. So I hope you've enjoyed it. Thanks, everybody for listening.

• 1:11:52Martin Lewis?

  And that's it for this week. If you've enjoyed it, please tell your friends you've been listening to the Martin Lewis podcast. We tend to put a new episode out every Thursday. Subscribe to keep up to date and your pockets will be pleased with you. And do please share this one on Council Tax. It's so widely misunderstood. I do hope this will break it down in bite sized chunks that people can work out whether they're paying the right amount or not. Take care. See you next week.

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• 1:14:01Speaker 02

  Coffee?

• 1:14:02Speaker 03

  Love a cup of tea. I'll have tea, too.

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  Tea for me, please.