Vamps with Caroline Framke

Our Amy Heckerling series comes to an end with 2012’s Vamps, a film produced too late to have an appropriate budget, and too early to be a streaming series. However - we find it charming! Caroline Framke returns to the podcast after 6 years (an eternity for us, but probably a blink for a vampire), and we talk about the pitfalls and pleasures of eternal youth, the B in Apartment 23, and how if Heckerling never makes another film, this one would serve as an appropriate career coda. Sign up for Check Book https://blankcheckpod.substack.com/welcome, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. http://www.patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter https://x.com/blankcheckpod?lang=en, Instagram https://www.instagram.com/blankcheckpod/?hl=en, Threads https://www.threads.net/@blankcheckpod?xmt=AQGzctAh4mbWTwYzCV1pzNT6AMV9o99EOfymi8TLR5mTde0 and Facebook https://www.facebook.com/blankcheckpodcast/! Buy some real nerdy merch https://kinshipgoods.com/blankcheck Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/blankies/s/gpcOkQr8Sv or Discord https://discord.gg/Q6YGSR3JrA For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com https://www.blankcheckpod.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Griffin Newman?

  David.

• 0:03David Sims?

  Yep.

• 0:03Griffin Newman?

  We did a live show.

• 0:04David Sims?

  Yeah, remember?

• 0:05Griffin Newman?

  Ranking Scorsese at the Bell House in Brooklyn. We did the definitive power ranking of Martin Scorsese things.

• 0:12David Sims?

  Uh, it was so fun. Uh, it was very silly.

• 0:15Griffin Newman?

  Ben and Marie were with us and they're with us right now.

• 0:18David Sims?

  Yeah, hey.

• 0:18Speaker 02

  Hey, everyone, or should I say, oh? Oh.

• 0:22Griffin Newman?

  And thanks to our friends at Dynasty Typewriter. It was livestreamed for the first time ever. But also, the replay is still up there, but only until October 30th.

• 0:31David Sims?

  So just a few more days.

• 0:33Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 0:33David Sims?

  You can get it at dynasty.tv.

• 0:36Griffin Newman?

  Dynasty.tv.

• 0:37David Sims?

  It's $20. We had a blast and the Spreadmaster really got to work.

• 0:43Griffin Newman?

  Oh, yeah. I was moving things around. Laptop was on.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  I don't know if I'd have seen you that happy.

• 0:48Griffin Newman?

  You were thrilled. You were like a pick and share.

• 0:50David Sims?

  I was locked in.

• 0:51Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, very locked in and you were funny.

• 0:53David Sims?

  Thank you. You were funny. You were also funny.

• 0:56Griffin Newman?

  Oh, thank you.

• 0:57David Sims?

  And if you want to see like, you know, Griffin's shine box on camera, it's the only way to see it.

• 1:02Griffin Newman?

  You might see me shine Marie's shoes.

• 1:04David Sims?

  Exactly.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you're into that sort of content.

• 1:07Griffin Newman?

  If that gets you off.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:10David Sims?

  So once again, that's at dynasty.tv.

• 1:39Griffin Newman?

  Oh, it's so annoying. You have to keep learning to use new crap that doesn't actually do anything better than the old crap, which is incompatible with the new crap. So also that you can have blogs and watch fake teenagers and Real Housewives and it's all happening too fast and I'm tired. I'm just sick and tired of it all.

• 1:53David Sims?

  It's okay. You don't have to do the podcast. That's one of my least favorite parts of the movie.

• 1:58Griffin Newman?

  Really?

• 1:59David Sims?

  Yeah. Anytime the movie's about like blogs, her complaining about blogs, I'm like, all right.

• 2:06Griffin Newman?

  Cause you're Junokor, you're honest to blogs.

• 2:08David Sims?

  I like, no, it's not that I like blogs, although I have no beef with blogs. No, it's just the only time where I'm like, oh, it's 2012, or it's the time when I most like, oh, it's 2012.

• 2:20Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:21David Sims?

  Well, because like, I'm like, oh, there are, little did she know what modern horrors awaited. Like all the things she's complaining about, I'm like, oh no, those things were pretty good.

• 2:30Griffin Newman?

  This movie is a weird period piece now.

• 2:32David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:33Griffin Newman?

  It is carbon dated very much to the exact moment it was made and was even a script that she wrote in 2005.

• 2:38Speaker 03

  But the most horrifying thing wasn't the Situation's book launch party? That didn't get you?

• 2:42David Sims?

  Oh, I forgot about that. Didn't clock that one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well.

• 2:47Griffin Newman?

  You seem in an irritated mood. Did you struggle with this movie?

• 2:50David Sims?

  Ben turned off the AC. It completely shifted my vibe.

• 2:54Griffin Newman?

  It is insane.

• 2:55David Sims?

  I'm not joking.

• 2:55Griffin Newman?

  Cause there.

• 2:56Speaker 03

  Immediately.

• 2:57David Sims?

  I really fucking.

• 2:57Griffin Newman?

  You were in a good mood and now you are hostile. Now you're ready to rant about Julie Arge.

• 3:01David Sims?

  It's so, it's so vital to my, to me. It's, it really is. I can't deny it.

• 3:07Speaker 03

  We're putting it back on.

• 3:07Griffin Newman?

  I mean, Ben, we just, we cannot do this for two hours. This is not an option.

• 3:13David Sims?

  I just, I love air conditioning so much.

• 3:16Griffin Newman?

  And when I say this, I'm gesturing to the.

• 3:18David Sims?

  It's one of those things where like.

• 3:19Griffin Newman?

  Red anger lines.

• 3:20David Sims?

  Well, well, and you know what? I'm trying to fit him into every episode, so.

• 3:25Griffin Newman?

  President role.

• 3:25David Sims?

  I'm a little rolky.

• 3:26Griffin Newman?

  He was, it is.

• 3:27Speaker 03

  If Sims had a moodlet right now.

• 3:29Griffin Newman?

  What if? He was in a completely fine mood and then within 30 seconds, he was on, on the brink of rolking.

• 3:35David Sims?

  I mean, what if when Harrison Ford, Thunderbolt Ross was getting mad, right? You know, in that movie where this, you might notice a scene or two of him going like,

• 3:49David Sims?

  right?

• 3:49Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, but then he takes his anti-rolk pills and he's fine.

• 3:53David Sims?

  Instead, he was like, turn the thermostat down. And they're like, yes, President. And he's like, okay.

• 3:59Speaker 04

  I can't record my podcast unless there's AC on.

• 4:03David Sims?

  Sweaty. And then finally, the leader is like, and like turns the AC off or turns the heat up. The leader just fucking writes me a new prescription. That's all his plan. The worst thing about that movie is the leader.

• 4:17Speaker 03

  Caroline? See, here I thought that the most relevant film for me to see this week for this episode would be Sinners, but no, apparently I needed to see Thunderbolts.

• 4:24David Sims?

  Have you seen Sinners?

• 4:25Speaker 03

  I saw it yesterday for this.

• 4:26David Sims?

  Okay.

• 4:27Speaker 03

  And then.

• 4:27David Sims?

  Well, also to be part of the. Well, cultural international discourse.

• 4:32Speaker 03

  Yes, exactly. But I was like, oh, vampire film. I should see the vampire film before we talk about the vampire film. And then I saw it and it was kind of a mistake because it fucking ripped and then it was all I could think about.

• 4:41David Sims?

  Yeah, sure.

• 4:42Speaker 03

  To watch Vamps again. I'd already watched it.

• 4:44David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 4:45Speaker 03

  And then I watched it again this morning. To be clear, I like Vamps a lot, but they are very different.

• 4:49David Sims?

  Vamps a lot. Yeah, I want to say that.

• 4:51Speaker 03

  Wild mood swings.

• 4:52David Sims?

  My whole thing with Vamps, and I'm sure we're about to discuss this. I think you're about to, right, the headline here. Uh, it would be funny if my whole thing with Vamps is I just think Red Hulk is. Women shouldn't talk this much. Is the first, what's a 90 minute movie? The first half hour, I'm like, right, the vampires are in the modern world and they don't, they have a BlackBerry or whatever. And then after, after about half an hour, yeah.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  The T-Mobile sidekick is much cooler than a BlackBerry. Let's get it straight.

• 5:23David Sims?

  There was a moment in my life I thought about getting a sidekick. I think before I was like, I'm just gonna get an iPhone.

• 5:28Speaker 03

  That moment was Gossip Girl. Gossip Girl was that moment.

• 5:30David Sims?

  Gossip Girl had.

• 5:32Speaker 03

  Blair Waldorf had a sidekick.

• 5:33David Sims?

  Gilmore Girls has a sidekick episode, which is one of the most naked, like T-Mobile has paid for one episode of your show.

• 5:39Speaker 03

  Gilmore Girls would not make me want to get a sidekick.

• 5:41David Sims?

  Did you have Nokia Engage? Did you ever engage? I, I never engaged as much as the idea of my telephone calls and my games in one beautiful, perfect, user-friendly package. Those two things won't clash at all.

• 5:55Griffin Newman?

  You want me to do committed long form gaming on a thing that's also gonna keep dinging?

• 6:02David Sims?

  Um, no, after a little while, I was like, I think I'm kind of into these characters. I think I'm a little sold on this movie to my mild surprise.

• 6:14Griffin Newman?

  I think the first 30 minutes, you're just like, yeah, okay, I get it. It's just like, kind of clever, but whatever. And then I think the remaining hour of the movie is kind of impressively well plotted. I think suddenly you're like, fuck, this thing actually is a good narrative. And the characters are all like.

• 6:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, great cast.

• 6:32David Sims?

  Yes, no money.

• 6:34Griffin Newman?

  That is what I thought you were going to say. The real headline of this movie is you watch it and you're like, it is impressive that she made it as good as she did, considering that is one of those films where you can feel the lack of time. You can feel every single background like disappearing two inches out of frame. That is like one of the clearest signs for you of low budget filmmaking. Where you're like, if you move it an inch, this entire environment's gonna fall apart.

• 7:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, like that stuff bothered me more than actually the special effects being janky.

• 7:05Griffin Newman?

  I agree.

• 7:06Speaker 03

  I think that worked.

• 7:07Griffin Newman?

  She is, but even then, I'm like, she is so close to figuring out how to execute the special effects on like an early Tim Burton level, where it's like, oh, the jankiness is part of the charm. It's stylized in a comedic way. And yet it feels like she's still 5% short of the budget to being able to execute that properly. Like, everything's just a little under what it should be in a way that makes this movie very bittersweet to watch, because you're just like, God, if they could have just given her like 20% more to work with, time, money, what have you, you're like, this would have been, if not received properly as like a commercial comeback film, it would be a movie our series could end on that would feel a lot more triumphant.

• 7:50Speaker 03

  Bittersweet is definitely, I feel like the word especially, we'll get to it, the end is so bittersweet. Um, I cried both times I watched this film this week.

• 7:58David Sims?

  I got a little choked up.

• 8:00Griffin Newman?

  The ending is very, very emotionally affecting and like beautifully built to and earned. And yet, in that final second, you're like, god damn it, fuck, this effect sucks. This emotional moment relies on.

• 8:13Speaker 03

  I mean, I grew up on Buffy and I've seen worse, like, you know, I, so that didn't, it didn't bother me as much as I should have. And also, I was thinking about it and not to come in here and be like, here's the TV critic, ready to relate it to television.

• 8:24Griffin Newman?

  Here we go.

• 8:25Speaker 03

  If she had been three years later with this.

• 8:27Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 8:27Speaker 03

  This would have been a Netflix show.

• 8:28Griffin Newman?

  I kept thinking.

• 8:29Speaker 03

  And I don't want to say that, you know, not derogatory. I mean, like, it could have been, it's a very, the world is defined, the characters are good.

• 8:36Griffin Newman?

  This movie kind of got made at the exact wrong moment.

• 8:40David Sims?

  Yeah, and like, what if this is the movie, she gets the, well, how much did this movie cost? I don't, I guess we don't know, it might be in the dossier, but like.

• 8:48Griffin Newman?

  I was trying to.

• 8:49David Sims?

  She got the 20 to 30 million dollars she got for her last movie for this movie.

• 8:55Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 8:55David Sims?

  Right, just like more than the, my guess is less than 10 million dollars she got for this movie? I don't know.

• 9:01Griffin Newman?

  The quote in the dossier is 10.

• 9:05David Sims?

  Yes, yes, the quote in the dossier is 10.

• 9:08Griffin Newman?

  Yes, um, it feels like this movie should cost 20. You're like.

• 9:12David Sims?

  Just, yeah, somewhere, right?

• 9:14Griffin Newman?

  Even 20 plus would have made a difference.

• 9:16David Sims?

  Well, anything would make a difference.

• 9:17Griffin Newman?

  Anything would make a difference. It feels like if she had waited two years, Amazon either would have given her 30 million dollars to make it as a movie, when they were in their sort of Ted Hope led, we're bringing back the forgotten auteurs and giving them blank checks phase. Or Netflix would have done it as a series. And either way, she would have had the support she needed. It would have been depressing that that's how it got made, but like, this movie is in a crux point of like, the high concept, larger budget studio comedy has kind of died. And things have not shifted over to streaming yet.

• 9:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, when I was watching it again this morning, I had watched it alone the first time. The second time my roommate was around and for the, some of the effects, especially towards the end, I was like, there's something so specific this reminds me of, or something that it's trying to be. And she was like, oh, it's Death Becomes Her. And I was like, fuck, that's it. Like, it's, it's close. It's almost that. But those effects are practical. They're different. They had more money, but there is such, you know, we'll get into all the vampire things I love, but Death Becomes Her is essentially a vampire movie.

• 10:17David Sims?

  Here's the whole thing with the Engage. The thing they fucked up, and this is what I forgot about this.

• 10:22Griffin Newman?

  Thank God we're circling back to this.

• 10:23David Sims?

  And Ben, just to, you know, when you see this, you think high-end video gaming, right? When you see that device. My heart starts fluttering. I'm so excited. Do you not know the Engage?

• 10:36Speaker 03

  I don't.

• 10:36David Sims?

  I figured you were just, oh, Karan.

• 10:37Speaker 03

  Oh, no, no, no. I've never seen that in my life.

• 10:39Griffin Newman?

  It was just like, we are going to, at the same time.

• 10:42David Sims?

  Make our own Game Boy.

• 10:42Griffin Newman?

  Right. And they were like, we will make the world's coolest cell phone and the, the Game Boy killer. They thought they were going to like dominate two industries simultaneously.

• 10:52Speaker 03

  I feel like where the buttons are in that stresses me out.

• 10:54David Sims?

  The issue, oh, there's a lot of stressful things about it. Here's the most stressful. To change cartridges for your games, you had to open the phone and take out the whole battery.

• 11:04Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 11:05David Sims?

  Cause they forgot, like, oh, right. Like the cartridges go behind the battery.

• 11:10Griffin Newman?

  They were sort of using like sim card logic of like, well, you don't change that very often.

• 11:15David Sims?

  It was like, which was one of the most classic examples of like, you know.

• 11:18Speaker 03

  What year was that?

• 11:19David Sims?

  Uh, 2003.

• 11:22Griffin Newman?

  Wow, that late?

• 11:24David Sims?

  That late. It was a competitor to the Game Boy.

• 11:26Speaker 03

  I was gonna say, when was the Game Boy? I'm like, that's not replacing the Game Boy.

• 11:29Griffin Newman?

  But the Advance, which had a similar, was going wide mode for the first time.

• 11:33Speaker 03

  I never had the Advance.

• 11:33David Sims?

  Right. But again, when you look at this screen, does that screen say wide to you? Doesn't say wide to me.

• 11:39Speaker 03

  It's like skinny, actually. The skinny little screen.

• 11:42David Sims?

  It's a skinny screen.

• 11:43Griffin Newman?

  It has the screen of like an original Game Boy. That looks like a postage stamp.

• 11:49David Sims?

  Maybe even smaller.

• 11:51Griffin Newman?

  Handheld. Can you show Caroline a photo of the Game Boy Advance for comparison?

• 11:55David Sims?

  Yeah, I'm sure you know the Game Boy.

• 11:57Speaker 03

  See, you've said this twice and I've been unfamiliar both times.

• 12:00Griffin Newman?

  Of the screen are better and also you will see there was a cleanness.

• 12:03David Sims?

  It's one of those things you're like, oh, a gaming company made that. Like Nintendo, actually.

• 12:08Griffin Newman?

  It has like three buttons.

• 12:09Speaker 03

  Okay, no, I have seen that.

• 12:11Griffin Newman?

  And a place to put games.

• 12:12Speaker 03

  I did not have it, but.

• 12:12Griffin Newman?

  And a larger screen.

• 12:14David Sims?

  Yeah, although the Game Boy Advance had its own problems in that it was not backlit.

• 12:17Griffin Newman?

  It was dark as hell.

• 12:18David Sims?

  Cause they wanted to say battery power and they realized that was just sort of not going to work anymore.

• 12:23Griffin Newman?

  Right. You had to get the accessory. I remember I had a little light.

• 12:26David Sims?

  Oh, you snap it on. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:28Griffin Newman?

  There was like, third party companies would make little like book lights that would go into the, the port you would use for like linked gameplay.

• 12:37David Sims?

  Yeah, I believe you're correct. Yeah.

• 12:38Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 12:39Speaker 03

  See, I just feel like my hands wouldn't go that way. It's not natural. The Game Boy, did you ever have those games? Like when you were really little and your parents were trying to keep you occupied in a restaurant?

• 12:47Griffin Newman?

  Tiger Electronics.

• 12:47Speaker 03

  Or like you press the, they look like.

• 12:48Griffin Newman?

  The LCD games.

• 12:49Speaker 03

  They look, no, not electronic. They're just like, they look like fish tanks.

• 12:51David Sims?

  Yes, with the hoops.

• 12:52Speaker 03

  You press the button and then you're trying to get the fish into the thing. So I feel like my, my thumbs were already prepped for that motion. I feel like the Game Boy Prime made sense to me in that way.

• 13:01Griffin Newman?

  But do you remember the Tiger LCD games that were just sort of like?

• 13:05David Sims?

  Yeah, there's like little, you know, the whole screen was just bits that could light up essentially with pixels. Like Battle Toads or whatever.

• 13:13Griffin Newman?

  Give that a Google while I introduce the podcast. I want Caroline to see this as well.

• 13:17David Sims?

  Uh, yes.

• 13:17Griffin Newman?

  This is important. This is important to talk about.

• 13:20David Sims?

  Battle Toads was like someone being like, what if I ripped off Turtles, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?

• 13:25Griffin Newman?

  Okay, so David.

• 13:26David Sims?

  No one checked me on that one.

• 13:27Griffin Newman?

  Open one tab that's Tiger Electronics LCD game and another tab that's Battle Toads so we can, right? Uh, this is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

• 13:35David Sims?

  I'm David.

• 13:35Griffin Newman?

  It's a podcast about filmographies. David's fast again. Thank God we turned the AC on. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce. Baby. This has been a mini series on the films of Amy Heckerling.

• 13:53David Sims?

  It has.

• 13:54Griffin Newman?

  We are sadly now discussing her final film to date.

• 13:58David Sims?

  For now.

• 13:58Griffin Newman?

  2012's Vamps.

• 14:00David Sims?

  I suppose she could make another one. She's how old? 70 years old? It's not impossible.

• 14:04Griffin Newman?

  She can make another one. She speaks of wanting to make more movies. But yes, and, and these final two films are very much anti blank checks. They are movies where you're feeling the tension of the checks being pulled back.

• 14:17David Sims?

  Someone write her a check.

• 14:18Griffin Newman?

  Right. And unlike I Could Never Be Your Woman, where you're like, this movie is stuck in a perpetual fit of mania.

• 14:24David Sims?

  A little compromised. Uh, yeah, an odd one.

• 14:27Speaker 03

  I'm glad I watched it earlier this week, but it did make me feel unhinged.

• 14:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 14:31David Sims?

  Yeah, it's a little like, you feel a little nauseous. It's a little like motion sick.

• 14:34Griffin Newman?

  This has the bittersweet thing where you watch it and you're like, the fuck, this should be one of her masterpieces. You can kind of see it pretty clearly.

• 14:42David Sims?

  Introduce our guest.

• 14:43Griffin Newman?

  Our guest today, who has done several power moves that we're going to get into since entering the studio. It's the great Caroline Framke. First time in far too long.

• 14:54David Sims?

  It needs to be said.

• 14:55Speaker 03

  Six years.

• 14:55David Sims?

  Caroline, here is an LCD game.

• 14:58Griffin Newman?

  Do you remember these?

• 14:59Speaker 03

  I do.

• 14:59Griffin Newman?

  And it would just sort of flicker like.

• 15:01David Sims?

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:02Speaker 03

  I clearly did not know the technical names of any of it.

• 15:04Griffin Newman?

  It was like a still image that basically you could move left or right.

• 15:08David Sims?

  Right, little bits of it would light up depending on where you wanted the guy to be.

• 15:11Griffin Newman?

  It was kind of the electronic version of the Water Ring game and it was that primitive.

• 15:15David Sims?

  Do you remember the Battle Toads? Cause I feel like the Battle Toads were pretty Ben coded.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  I mean, that's a really good game.

• 15:20David Sims?

  Yes, it's very hard.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  It is.

• 15:22Speaker 03

  Are they toads that battle?

• 15:24David Sims?

  It's truly just them ripping off.

• 15:25Griffin Newman?

  They're cool guys, they have sunglasses, their names are Rash, Zit.

• 15:28David Sims?

  Right, I think we've talked about this before because I remember us going through their gross names. Uh, I'll, I'll look them up. Their names, of course, are, come on now, they have to defeat the dark queen, we know that.

• 15:40Griffin Newman?

  Pigs, I feel like they fight.

• 15:41David Sims?

  Rash, Zits with a Z, two Z's, and Pimple.

• 15:46Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, there we go. They're gross.

• 15:48Speaker 03

  Why are they bodily?

• 15:50David Sims?

  Because like, that was cool, you know? It's like.

• 15:52Griffin Newman?

  Boys are gross things, they're like mutated animals.

• 15:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:56Griffin Newman?

  That are absorbing the vibes of other cultures.

• 15:59Speaker 03

  I think they fought pigs or pigs the natural enemy of frogs.

• 16:03Griffin Newman?

  People could have pigs a lot, right? Like Minecraft and Angry Birds both go, we gotta take down the pigs.

• 16:08Speaker 03

  Pigs, who I think Wildly consider to be quite nice and smart.

• 16:11Griffin Newman?

  And smart.

• 16:12David Sims?

  I would say the Minecraft movie using the Piglins is actually a swerve. Like, those are not the traditional Minecraft villains. They're, they were introduced a little later.

• 16:21Griffin Newman?

  Pause for one second, because Ruda has called me twice.

• 16:24David Sims?

  Oh, boy.

• 16:29David Sims?

  What's up with Ruda?

• 16:30Griffin Newman?

  Fucking dinner rescheduled. It was just, she was doing with an urgency that is not her usual behavior unless there's a health problem.

• 16:36Speaker 03

  No, twice in a row.

• 16:37David Sims?

  Griffin's grandmother is so old that any phone call, I think understandably for Griffin is like, okay, what's, what's this one gonna be? Right?

• 16:44Griffin Newman?

  Yes. We can keep that in now.

• 16:46David Sims?

  Sure.

• 16:47Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 16:48David Sims?

  She is a sort of background character on the show.

• 16:50Griffin Newman?

  Absolutely. Yeah. Anyway, uh, big announcement, Sklusi. I will be getting dinner with her sometime. Next week. Well, it's now in flux. There was a Monday plan that I've now kicked to post record.

• 17:00David Sims?

  Where does she like to go? And of course, you don't have to tell me, or we couldn't beep it out. But like, does she have a spot?

• 17:06Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, she lives on the Upper East Side.

• 17:07David Sims?

  Yes.

• 17:08Griffin Newman?

  And she is of an advanced age.

• 17:09David Sims?

  Yes.

• 17:09Griffin Newman?

  And her favorite places to go are places that are

• 17:12David Sims?

  Or whatever.

• 17:12Griffin Newman?

  Less than a block and a half.

• 17:14David Sims?

  Right, right, right.

• 17:14Griffin Newman?

  Of which there are a couple.

• 17:15David Sims?

  Right. I wish I had a place. I mean, I do obviously have restaurants I go to or whatever. The diner you were just talking about. That feels like your place. No, but imagine the level of like.

• 17:26Speaker 03

  If the diner were downstairs.

• 17:28David Sims?

  Well, more like I walk in and like, David, your table's ready, right? A cheer is kind of like, eh!

• 17:34Griffin Newman?

  I mean, we were just talking.

• 17:35David Sims?

  The only place I have that is my local bagel place where they do know my name.

• 17:38Speaker 03

  I have that with an Italian restaurant in Park Slope.

• 17:40David Sims?

  I know you do.

• 17:40Speaker 03

  That I told you about. I'm so, I talk about it all the time because it truly took a lot of work and a lot of money to get there.

• 17:46Griffin Newman?

  I, I'm not gonna name it because we're, but it's a restaurant we were just talking about where they do know my order now.

• 17:52David Sims?

  That's pretty cool.

• 17:52Speaker 03

  See, that's nice.

• 17:53Griffin Newman?

  And I'm not gonna name it because it's a bit of a hotspot and it is one of the places where I get, uh, recognized by Blankies most consistently.

• 17:59David Sims?

  Dave and Buster's?

• 18:00Griffin Newman?

  Correct. There we go. They know my order.

• 18:02David Sims?

  And your order is what, like atomic wings, nuclear level?

• 18:06Griffin Newman?

  And a card with 8,000 credits.

• 18:08David Sims?

  Caroline and I went to Dave and Buster's. I think I told you that.

• 18:11Griffin Newman?

  You and Caroline have been doing a lot of very griff-coded activities together.

• 18:15David Sims?

  13-year-olds together.

• 18:16Griffin Newman?

  You've been eating like fucking chicken fingers and playing video games and shit.

• 18:19Speaker 03

  We did not get chicken. No, we didn't, but we should have, but.

• 18:21David Sims?

  We went to D and B because I, well, you can tell the story. I mean, I don't know.

• 18:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, we, we got lunch. We got a hot dog. You had a weird amount of time before. You had kind of stacked a bunch of stuff because now you're like out in the world more. We're very excited. You know, the twins are sleep training or like

• 18:35David Sims?

  They're sleep trained.

• 18:35Speaker 03

  They're sleep trained. Oh, they're sleep trained now. See, that was not the case before, but he was out in the world. He was like, I'm stacking like five things.

• 18:41Griffin Newman?

  They're getting a little lazy now. They gotta get their asses out of bed.

• 18:43Speaker 03

  They are trained to sleep. So he had like an extra hour, hour and a half before he had to a movie.

• 18:48David Sims?

  Right. I had a weird gap.

• 18:50Speaker 03

  And he just goes, we were talking, he's like, I just wish there was, it was um, Hard Eyes.

• 18:54David Sims?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's what Hard Eyes is.

• 18:56Speaker 03

  It was Hard Eyes.

• 18:56Griffin Newman?

  Josh, pass on future guests.

• 18:57David Sims?

  Absolutely. Great. A movie I really enjoyed.

• 18:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. And so he was like, I just wish there were like an arcade or something. I was like, David, there's a Dave and Buster's.

• 19:03David Sims?

  Well, but that is the weird thing that I expressed that thought, a thought I had not thought was in that brain.

• 19:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:09David Sims?

  And then that you were like, well, there is one.

• 19:12Speaker 03

  And I'd never been, you'd never been.

• 19:13David Sims?

  No. And we wandered in there. Um, and I would say that the midday Dave and Buster's wasn't really ready to help us.

• 19:20Speaker 03

  No.

• 19:21David Sims?

  It's like we walked in there and someone was like, and here's where you get your card and here's how everything works. We kind of had to trial and error.

• 19:26Griffin Newman?

  That's what I like about Dave and Buster's is you, you have to take care of your own ass.

• 19:31Speaker 03

  See, we did not know that. We walked in, I was like, there is no one here. There were maybe three groups of two children who were.

• 19:39Griffin Newman?

  This is what makes Dean be different than Chuck E. Cheese, though. They're not gonna hold your fucking hand. This place isn't for babies.

• 19:45Speaker 03

  We wandered around for an embarrassingly long time trying to find anyone or where do we get the card? Do we download the app, whatever? And then we look up and there's like a giant fucking sign.

• 19:56David Sims?

  Start here. But it's very large.

• 19:59Griffin Newman?

  Thousand giant flashing signs.

• 20:00David Sims?

  There's a lot of flashing things there.

• 20:02Speaker 03

  It's hard to know which. Pizza Planet in a way that I enjoyed, but it was overwhelming.

• 20:05David Sims?

  The thing we did.

• 20:06Speaker 03

  There was no one there.

• 20:07David Sims?

  The only thing we did that I regret, no one was there.

• 20:09Speaker 03

  No.

• 20:10David Sims?

  Is that I was like, you, we both were kind of like, well, we should play one of the gun games.

• 20:13Griffin Newman?

  The only thing that you regret was leaving.

• 20:15Speaker 03

  First of all, I wish I were still there. Still be there.

• 20:19David Sims?

  Uh, and we're like, you know, we're looking at your house of the deads and you're, oh God, it's all so intense. And then so there was a Tomb Raider one and I was like, okay, Tomb Raider is kind of a slightly more. And we start playing it and then they're like, you're being attacked by wolves.

• 20:32Speaker 03

  Wolves.

• 20:32David Sims?

  Kill the wolves.

• 20:33Speaker 03

  The wolves.

• 20:33David Sims?

  And so it's just Carolyn to dog owner. We're shooting so many dogs, essentially.

• 20:39Speaker 03

  I'm just like, Carolyn, kill them. It was like, why? No. Like truly almost crying. I'm like, I'm an insane dog owner.

• 20:46Griffin Newman?

  You're almost crying right now and talking about it.

• 20:48Speaker 03

  I am. It was very upsetting.

• 20:49David Sims?

  But it was also overwhelming just because they were trying to get us.

• 20:52Speaker 03

  They were. They were jumping at the screen.

• 20:54David Sims?

  You were right on a swivel, those two.

• 20:55Speaker 03

  I can't like, that was never, I didn't go to many arcades. We talked about how we went to arcades as a teen. I didn't really do that. And definitely if I did, my game was not shooting. I feel like it was, you know, I smoked him on basketball, say that much. And Sims is solidly taller than me. So let us all.

• 21:09Griffin Newman?

  This is cool. This is cool. And I like this. And this is good lore.

• 21:13David Sims?

  It was, it was a good time. And then we have gone bowling since.

• 21:15Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 21:15David Sims?

  Cause we were like, okay, casting around for what are other things I did before I could drink?

• 21:19Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 21:19David Sims?

  You know, like teen activities.

• 21:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. So it's like that sort of stuff.

• 21:22Griffin Newman?

  Collection together and didn't invite me.

• 21:25David Sims?

  What is, is there a third, is there a third thing in the holy trinity of?

• 21:29Speaker 03

  Well, for me, and I feel like Ben will understand, as a Jersey, well, I did actually get my ears pierced like a month ago randomly. After I got a great haircut and I was like, I think I'm fucking gonna live forever. Should I pierce my hair? Oh, my God.

• 21:42Griffin Newman?

  You were feeling vamped up.

• 21:43Speaker 03

  I was feeling vamped up. I did not think it through. I'll tell you that much. And I got like the upper thing. And then they were like, you're gonna need a sleep pillow. And I was like, what? I'm gonna need a pillow? I did not get the pillow. It's like a donut. If you look up like piercing pillow.

• 21:55David Sims?

  I get it. I get it. To stop it.

• 21:56Speaker 03

  There are some weird piercing pillows. It looks like other stuff. But I'm a, I sleep on my back, so it was not that big an issue. But it was like, I have to think about things in a way. It was not anticipating. But yeah, I did get my ears pierced. I'll get the other one pierced if you want to do that. But I do feel like the thing I would, my holy trinity in terms of teen activities, it would either be a mall or a diner, because I grew up in Jersey.

• 22:14Griffin Newman?

  Hell, yeah.

• 22:15David Sims?

  A diner. Well, and we've been to many a diner together.

• 22:17Speaker 03

  Well, not the late night diner. I didn't go to breakfast at diners. I did breakfast at night.

• 22:22David Sims?

  I get, no, I.

• 22:23Speaker 03

  What else is open?

• 22:23David Sims?

  That's teen, very teen. We gotta end up at Denny's or whatever, because we can't go to a bar. Right?

• 22:28Speaker 03

  The one like 24 hour place in my town besides for, I don't think the diner was 24 hours in my immediate town was a 24 hour combination Baskin Robbins Dunkin' Donuts. So you can stay up, eat some ice cream, feel sick.

• 22:40David Sims?

  Where would you go, Ben?

• 22:41Griffin Newman?

  If Caroline successfully convinces David to get an ear piercing and then go to a 24 hour chain restaurant afterwards, that feels like he's then stepping in on your territory. Of shit he should do with you.

• 22:52Speaker 02

  Little bit.

• 22:53Speaker 03

  Wow, I'm really, I'm really taking over. I'm just encroaching the whole thing. That wasn't even one of my power moves.

• 22:57Griffin Newman?

  You're not doing anything wrong. The problem is if Ben or I suggested these activities, what are you guys talking about? You're insane. I'd never do that.

• 23:04David Sims?

  A lot of people say a lot of things about me. That's all I'll say. But Fran and I were briefly gonna get our nipples pierced for the Dragon Tattoo episode. We were like, we're gonna go full Lisbeth.

• 23:14Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 23:15David Sims?

  But then we, you know, whatever. We didn't get our act together. Like, that was gonna be complicated.

• 23:19Speaker 03

  That wasn't number one on the priority list?

• 23:23David Sims?

  Would have been pretty funny.

• 23:24Griffin Newman?

  Maybe you wouldn't want the AC as much if you had two fucking metal studs in your chest.

• 23:29David Sims?

  I think I'd want it more. What were you gonna say?

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Well, to answer your question, what did I do?

• 23:33David Sims?

  Your diner. Or, yeah, sure. What was your, yeah?

• 23:35Speaker 02

  I mean, pretty much anywhere where we could loiter in the middle of the night.

• 23:38David Sims?

  You loiter?

• 23:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:40David Sims?

  Teenage Ben?

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 23:41David Sims?

  Loitering?

• 23:42Speaker 03

  Prime loiter.

• 23:43David Sims?

  Reading a big leather bound book?

• 23:45Speaker 03

  Public parks, playgrounds.

• 23:46David Sims?

  Cozy corner?

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Playground, but even just gas station parking lot.

• 23:50Speaker 03

  Oh, sure.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  You know, cause you could go to the, yeah, exactly. Go to the convenience store. Those are open 24 hours. We had a 24 hour diner near my town where I grew up. Called, we would go TikTok.

• 24:01David Sims?

  Oh, classic.

• 24:02Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

• 24:04David Sims?

  Perfect. Oh, I see it here.

• 24:05Speaker 03

  I feel like, you know, in keeping with, sort of keeping with this episode, I feel like I have, as I have aged, I'm looking back at like, what did I like to do before my default was going out to a restaurant or going to a bar? Like, are there other activities? I'm sure there are, you know? And I feel like as a teen, you have to find those other things. We do, we've done these things. You and I have done these teen things in like the smack middle of the day.

• 24:29David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 24:29Speaker 03

  Cause that's when, there are fewer people there, and that's when you're doing stuff. But I do feel like, you know, doing that stuff later at night.

• 24:36David Sims?

  But I would often.

• 24:36Speaker 03

  As a teen, that's where you could go.

• 24:38David Sims?

  I would often do it in the day as a teen, I feel like. Right? It was kind of like, how do I fill this weekend day? And then?

• 24:43Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, movies. But if you're.

• 24:45David Sims?

  Movies, video games, going to the park.

• 24:51Speaker 03

  The park is nice. What's wrong with the park?

• 24:53David Sims?

  I don't know. When I was 14, my guess is I was sort of like, I.

• 24:56Speaker 03

  Your grimy London park.

• 24:58David Sims?

  So instead I would go to Rowan's, uh, which was a bowling alley and an arcade. And that is a very, very cherished spot in my childhood. And it had a, a bar and I could order food at the bar. And they had something called the combo platter for five pounds. It was like chicken fingers, fries and onion rings on one big plate. And this is all the food groups covered. The tri-able. Starch. Protein.

• 25:25Griffin Newman?

  The full pyramid.

• 25:26David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 25:27Speaker 03

  By the way, I did briefly consider, um, punishing you for dangling clueless in front of me by, um, bringing back, um, oh, I didn't know you grew up in England, blah, and I did.

• 25:35David Sims?

  You don't understand, that would be too complicated.

• 25:37Speaker 03

  No, no, I know. So I briefly was like, I know it's been retired. And I was like, I'm gonna unretire it forcibly. And then I watched, um, I Can Never Be Your Woman. And I was like, if there were any episode to do it on that, be the one, so never mind, fuck it.

• 25:47Griffin Newman?

  Fuck, we should have done it on that.

• 25:48David Sims?

  It's a heavy Brit, uh.

• 25:50Speaker 03

  And I was like, and I tried, I was like, I don't think it's funny. I think I just, I think I had a mean moment. I was like, I just want to see him squirm. And I was like, let's not do that.

• 25:57Griffin Newman?

  You even told me at David's birthday that you wanted my help doing a bit to torture him.

• 26:01Speaker 03

  And then I thought about like, what that would actually look like in the conversation I'd have with you to make that happen. I was like, hmm.

• 26:06Griffin Newman?

  You know what the bit should have been for I Should Never Be Your Woman? It should have been arguing that David grew up in California.

• 26:13Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 26:14Griffin Newman?

  Being like, no, no, you're. That was Los Angeles.

• 26:17Speaker 03

  No.

• 26:19David Sims?

  Sunny, so sunny, the sun.

• 26:24Griffin Newman?

  Remember you were surrounded by people with perfect Californian accents?

• 26:28Speaker 03

  I mean, perfect is the brightest town.

• 26:30David Sims?

  Hello.

• 26:31Speaker 03

  And do you respect that David Mitchell is like?

• 26:34David Sims?

  I just got back from the beach. David Mitchell, right, is the one who's like, I'm not.

• 26:38Griffin Newman?

  The only one.

• 26:39David Sims?

  Like, it's not, you don't want to hear what that is.

• 26:42Griffin Newman?

  Okay, I want to, I want to step back and doing a little table setting here, cause you've alluded to this. But all this conversation, by the way, was relevant, cause this is a movie about like, do you want to stay young forever?

• 26:52David Sims?

  Right. What is it to be eternally a certain age?

• 26:55Griffin Newman?

  Right. Caroline, you had two blockbuster appearances on this podcast.

• 27:00Speaker 03

  Blockbusters.

• 27:00Griffin Newman?

  Covering two huge movies.

• 27:02Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 27:02Griffin Newman?

  Showgirls, a big episode, a big film.

• 27:05Speaker 03

  I feel like I'm really glad I didn't think that one, I didn't overthink that one because the second I left, I was like, I feel like that was a big movie.

• 27:10Griffin Newman?

  This is what you said at David's birthday. You said like, I never would get an episode like that today. And I didn't even realize how big it was until I left. And we're like, Caroline, every time we put a new mini series on the schedule, I say to David, what about Frankie? We haven't had Frankie on in too long. And your response is often, I don't want to do something if I don't feel strongly about it. I'm not going to take a slot for someone who would care more about something else. Which I've always thought was very respectable, but you did that in Kiki.

• 27:35David Sims?

  But I have thrown.

• 27:36Griffin Newman?

  Two great movies.

• 27:37David Sims?

  I've thrown you a lot of options.

• 27:39Speaker 03

  He has thrown me options over the years.

• 27:40David Sims?

  And you've usually kind of been like, David Lynch, I don't know that I, you know, am engaged enough with that to be, you know.

• 27:45Speaker 03

  And then it's, yeah.

• 27:46Griffin Newman?

  Your wording you said to me is like, I don't want to take it away from someone who really wants to do it.

• 27:50Speaker 03

  I mean, you know, I feel like.

• 27:52Griffin Newman?

  Thoughtful of you.

• 27:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, like there's something, I feel like there would be something interesting about doing, like if I were to do a David Lynch, it'd be coming from the perspective of I've never fully engaged with this work in a way that maybe I wanted to, and that would be different. But I'm like, but he's, there's so much to say about it from a perspective of people who know and love him. I have so many Lynch obsessives in my life that I was like, I can't, I can't even do that to them. People who would, who aren't even in contention to be on the, just people.

• 28:17Griffin Newman?

  To people. We put Heckling on the spreadsheet. I go, this feels like a Frankie moment, right? David has some offline conversation with you that I'm not part of, and then you get slotted in for Vamps. And it was like, that sort of makes sense. That feels like a good fit.

• 28:34David Sims?

  And you'd seen it.

• 28:35Speaker 03

  Well, that was the thing is that he said.

• 28:37Griffin Newman?

  I didn't know that.

• 28:37Speaker 03

  You didn't, okay. So you didn't know that. All right. You keep going.

• 28:40Griffin Newman?

  No, you jumped in with what you were gonna say.

• 28:43Speaker 03

  Well, it's just, he asked me like, oh, do you have any strong feelings about Vamps? And I was like, oh yeah. I mean, I saw it and I liked it. And he was like, so you saw it?

• 28:49David Sims?

  Yeah, that was already, I was like, oh.

• 28:51Speaker 03

  And I was like, yeah. And I guess I did not at that time know the full lore of just how limited this one theater release was.

• 28:59Griffin Newman?

  We will get to.

• 29:00Speaker 03

  We will, we will get to how, you know, how I did see it. But I was like, oh yeah. And I saw it. And he was like, okay. So did you like it? And I said, yes. And he said, okay, great.

• 29:06Griffin Newman?

  You're doing that.

• 29:07Speaker 03

  And I said, fine.

• 29:08Griffin Newman?

  I think we knew when we committed to the series that it would be harder to book her final two films.

• 29:15David Sims?

  Yes.

• 29:15Griffin Newman?

  In particular, that didn't get real releases and that you're like, you know, as much as heckling is serious, there aren't a lot of heckling tourists out there who like, are like, well, of course I've watched every one of her films. Most people don't know these two movies ever happened, right?

• 29:29David Sims?

  Yes.

• 29:29Griffin Newman?

  And so when we get to positions like this, there's often this thing of like, look, we can ask a friend of ours who's a good guest to watch it cold for the first time. But it's always better if we know someone who actually has seen it previously and has any feeling about it, right? Where you're not just rolling the dice or someone coming in and being like,

• 29:47Speaker 03

  It was fine.

• 29:48Griffin Newman?

  I mean, right. Love it or hate it. It's better if there's some feeling in history.

• 29:52David Sims?

  There's certain things like, uh, I could never be your woman where, well, honestly, that movie turned out to be a lot weirder than I thought it was. But initially I was sort of like, at least it's not a big ask of an, of a guest of like, hey, watch this 90 minute movie with Paul Rudd in it. Like you'll have an.

• 30:08Speaker 03

  You did ask me if I would be interested in that one. And I was like, between the two, I would rather.

• 30:12Griffin Newman?

  We kept asking people, hey, here's the heckling list, but if you have any relationship to loser, I could never be your woman on vamps, please let us know.

• 30:20David Sims?

  Whereas there are certain movies, I feel like where it's like, you're making a, you know, a bit more consequential ask of someone to watch some heavy movie that nobody, I don't know. Like it hasn't come up in a while because we've been doing all these big shots.

• 30:31Griffin Newman?

  But these have been right, like true kind of movies that don't exist. So David does not relate to me that you had seen the film. I thought you were doing us a mitzvah, right? That you were like, I like vampires. I like comedies. This feels like a fun thing to watch for the first time. Then we have another past guest, hopefully future guest, reach out to us from out of town.

• 30:54David Sims?

  Yeah. Who doesn't live here anymore.

• 30:56Griffin Newman?

  And was like, I might be in town in this exact window. Is there anything you guys could throw at me? And we said, have you seen, I could never be your woman? And her response was no, but I love vamps. And I was like, fuck, here's someone who's passionate about vamps. Do we bump Frankie off of Vamps? Because I thought you were just doing us a solid. Replacing it with passion, right? So then we bump you, David offers Clueless.

• 31:20Speaker 03

  And I was like, all right, I truly was like, are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure you're not gonna get someone for Clueless?

• 31:26Griffin Newman?

  Consolation prize trade up.

• 31:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, and I truly was like, a little stressed about it. Cause I was like, Clueless is Clueless, but I will do it. Like, what am I gonna say no to Clueless? Like, I'm not gonna say no to Clueless.

• 31:35Griffin Newman?

  And then this other person's and.

• 31:37Speaker 03

  And now it's aired.

• 31:38Griffin Newman?

  Well, then David also relates to me, Frankie's kind of bummed that she's not doing Vamps. So I'm gonna offer her Clueless. And I was like, I didn't realize she actually liked it.

• 31:45Speaker 03

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 31:46Griffin Newman?

  Right. Then the other person's travel plans got changed. Was like, I probably won't be here until the fall. And I was like, we got it. We kind of gotta move Frankie back to Vamps. Because no one else will want to do Vamps.

• 31:59Speaker 03

  And I believe David's text to me was, Caroline, I am on my knees begging you to do Vamps.

• 32:05David Sims?

  A little bit.

• 32:05Griffin Newman?

  A little bit.

• 32:06Speaker 03

  No, that's literally what you said.

• 32:08Griffin Newman?

  A lot of it.

• 32:10Speaker 03

  And I was like, all right, so who do you have?

• 32:11Griffin Newman?

  We are very appreciative of you.

• 32:13Speaker 03

  Oh, no, it's fine. And honestly, frankly, I think it did work out. I have, I think, a lot more specific stuff to say about Vamps. And also, it is only spiritually correct that Blonde did Clueless. It's just right.

• 32:23Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 32:23Speaker 03

  It's just right. It's not the first time a Blonde has taken my thing and it won't be the last.

• 32:26Griffin Newman?

  And dare I say it, a raven haired snarkster doing Vamps.

• 32:30Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 32:31David Sims?

  True, true.

• 32:32Speaker 03

  Thank you so much. And I don't have my summer tan yet. I'm not, I'm not Kristen Ritter.

• 32:36David Sims?

  It's, I mean, May is just upon us. The tanning opportunities are just beginning.

• 32:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:41Griffin Newman?

  Now, before we dig into the movie proper, I just want to give you a shout out. Beyond just you doing us a big solid in this crazy musical chairs of booking. For this season, I walk in, you are finishing up a caricature of your own face and taping it to the front of your desk. Because you're jealous that you don't have a cartoon avatar of yourself.

• 33:02David Sims?

  You have to say that she's jealous.

• 33:03Speaker 03

  I mean, I was, it's fine.

• 33:04Griffin Newman?

  You go, you go, that's much better now. And then you immediately say, now I need shit on my desk to compete with me.

• 33:10Speaker 03

  Well, I didn't realize there were desks in general.

• 33:12Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 33:12Speaker 03

  I have not been to the studio yet. Last time I was on the show was six years ago for Kiki's Delivery Service.

• 33:16David Sims?

  It was at the old Audio Boom Studios.

• 33:18Speaker 03

  And I walked in, Ben was the only one here. I beat both of you, which is, again, no, I'm thrilled. Because I'm never the first anywhere, as me is.

• 33:25David Sims?

  You walked in though, I was not crying though.

• 33:28Speaker 03

  No, not this time.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  This time, dry eyed.

• 33:32Griffin Newman?

  But you very quickly established a good desk spread.

• 33:34Speaker 03

  Well, I'm glad I brought the bag I did today because I had a lot of stuff in it.

• 33:39Griffin Newman?

  Three beverages, notebook, novel.

• 33:41Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 33:42Griffin Newman?

  And then vape?

• 33:44Speaker 03

  No, that's actually lipstick. Actually, and this is not a novel. This is Maeve Brennan's The Long winded Lady, which is anecdotes from New York City and actually feels very goody brotherhood in that way.

• 33:54Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 33:55Speaker 03

  But she's just like.

• 33:55Griffin Newman?

  That's lipstick?

• 33:56Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, it's like, um, it's like a, yeah, it's one of those.

• 34:00Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 34:01Speaker 03

  And then I had an Oh Mary playbill.

• 34:03Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 34:03Speaker 03

  I think this might, it's either, I think this is the tightest one. I saw both.

• 34:07Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 34:08Speaker 03

  Um, and some glow in the dark temp tattoos.

• 34:10Griffin Newman?

  Three Beetlejuice plushies and a poppy from Trolls.

• 34:13Speaker 03

  Yep. And then it has an assortment of Sour Patch Lemonade flavor.

• 34:16Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 34:17Speaker 03

  Or sustenance.

• 34:18Griffin Newman?

  We're doing great.

• 34:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I'm, I'm in it for the long haul. Here we go.

• 34:21Griffin Newman?

  Ben, why did this movie put you in a weird mood?

• 34:23Speaker 02

  It's a bit of a weird movie.

• 34:24Griffin Newman?

  It is clear.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  There, there's the quality.

• 34:31David Sims?

  The sort of general, like, I'm eating a generic brand versus, you know, this is the RC Cola.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  It's a little CW.

• 34:40David Sims?

  Sure.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  A little bit, a little bit.

• 34:42Speaker 03

  CW is derogatory.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:43Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  Um, it takes you back to that time of the aughts.

• 34:48David Sims?

  Well, happy time for you.

• 34:49Griffin Newman?

  A chaotic time.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  A chaotic time.

• 34:52Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say I was living my life in a certain way where I don't really remember much of that time.

• 34:58David Sims?

  Quarter mile in time.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  You know?

• 35:00Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 35:05Griffin Newman?

  David.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 35:06Griffin Newman?

  It's not cuffing season for me. It's cozy season for me. And this year, that meant finally upgrading my new mattress from Lisa.

• 35:13Speaker 02

  Lisa.

• 35:14Griffin Newman?

  It's supportive, comfortable, and just what my body needs after a long day. It makes crawling into bed on a chilly fall night feel like luxury.

• 35:22David Sims?

  Yeah, I have a Lisa too. Uh, they've got a lineup of beautifully crafted mattresses tailored to how you sleep.

• 35:28Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 35:28David Sims?

  Each mattress is designed with specific sleep positions and feel preferences in mind. They've got eco-friendly materials.

• 35:35Griffin Newman?

  Maybe you hear eco-friendly and you go, oh, but I'm going to sacrifice comfort.

• 35:38David Sims?

  No.

• 35:39Griffin Newman?

  Nope.

• 35:40David Sims?

  They've been awarded best hybrid and best memory foam mattresses by New York Times' Wirecutter. They're featured by West Elm as their go-to mattress partner, and they work with local nonprofits across the US to donate thousands of mattresses each year to families in need. Over 43,000 mattresses donated to date. Go to lisa.com for up to 30% off mattresses. Plus, get an extra $50 off with promo code BLANKCHECK. Exclusive for our listeners. That's L-E-E-S-A.com promo code BLANKCHECK for up to 30% off mattresses plus an extra $50 off. Let them know we sent you. And the survey after checkout, lisa.com promo code BLANKCHECK.

• 36:26Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 36:27David Sims?

  Yes?

• 36:27Griffin Newman?

  He lurks in shadow. He slips into dreams. He casts no reflection. Audible presents Bram Stoker's Dracula, a new full cast audio thriller starring Ella Purnell as Mina Harker, Jonathan Bailey as Dracula, and an A-list cast, including Maggie Gyllenhaal as Van Helsing, Amy Lou Wood as Lucy, David Johnson as Dr. Seward, and many more. That is an all-star cast.

• 36:48David Sims?

  Yeah, this new full cast thriller locks Mina Harker in a battle of minds with the Count. When Mina's fiance, Jonathan Harker, Louis Partridge, vanishes in Transylvania, Mina pieces together letters, diary entries, and chilling testimony to hunt the predator stalking those she loves, only to discover Dracula's already hunting her.

• 37:08Griffin Newman?

  Joined by the enigmatic Van Helsing, Mina and a small fearless band race against time to stop this ancient terror. Using her intellect, her resolve, and a gift for drawing the unseen lines between clues, Mina may just hold the key to bring down the Count if he hasn't already found his way inside her mind.

• 37:24David Sims?

  Featuring a haunting original score by Elon Eschery and a spatial dolby Atmos sound design, Audible's Dracula invites you to welcome literature's most shadowy figure into your home. Feel the terror of being hunted and the thrill of the hunt. Don't miss this year's best new audio thriller, Bram Stoker's Dracula, Audible's new full cast original adaptation, written by Robin Ahern, now on Audible. Listen to the darkness. Go to audible.com/ListenToDracula.

• 37:58Griffin Newman?

  David!

• 37:59David Sims?

  Yes?

• 37:59Griffin Newman?

  Shop.com is giving away $1 million in Shop Cash.

• 38:03David Sims?

  Wow. Shop has all the stores you love and lets you track every order in one spot.

• 38:09Griffin Newman?

  I love that. It's very convenient.

• 38:10David Sims?

  And now, 1,000 shoppers are each gonna win $1,000 in Shop Cash, just in time for the holidays.

• 38:17Griffin Newman?

  You get gifts for everyone on your list, or get yourself something a little merry and bright. Find exactly what you're looking for at shop.com.

• 38:26David Sims?

  Uh, got stocking stuffers, maybe. The sickest luxury items. Cookware, to kicks, toys to high-tech, even tinsel and tree toppers. Type in what you're looking for to instantly search every shop at once, okay? That's shop.com. You can just go, click around, find brands you love, search across all the stores, track every order in one spot.

• 38:49Griffin Newman?

  From cult favorites to the world's biggest brands, score suite deals, and checkout fast, all at shop.com. Enter to win the $1 million Shop Cash giveaway from now until November 1st. Just go to shop.com. There are so many ways to win. That's shop.com. Shopping designed around you. No purchase necessary. Restrictions apply. Official rules available at shop.com.

• 39:19Griffin Newman?

  What do you call this era? This is like post-Indie sleaze. But has anyone named this era?

• 39:25David Sims?

  What's happening in the culture?

• 39:26Griffin Newman?

  Early 2010s core.

• 39:27Speaker 03

  Because it's not not indie sleaze.

• 39:29David Sims?

  It's like the recession era, like is the problem. It's kind of just like everyone's a little bummed out.

• 39:34Speaker 03

  Just post-recession indie sleaze.

• 39:36Griffin Newman?

  I feel like this kind of has to be post-indie sleaze. Like, I think no one has

• 39:40David Sims?

  No, for sure.

• 39:41Griffin Newman?

  earmarked it, but I think some transition has happened that still owes something to indie sleaze.

• 39:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:46David Sims?

  I don't think it's been defined really yet.

• 39:48Griffin Newman?

  Post-recession is a good, is a good stance.

• 39:50David Sims?

  Yeah, right. What's the music people are listening to in 2012?

• 39:54Speaker 03

  I mean, I do.

• 39:55David Sims?

  Drake? Jesus. Yeah, let's really junk that here. In the bin.

• 40:00Griffin Newman?

  It does weirdly feel like Kristen Ritter is the perfect ultimate avatar of early 2010s New York. Not just because she was the bee.

• 40:09Speaker 03

  The bee. We can talk about the bee. This was the right episode.

• 40:13Griffin Newman?

  That show exists because it was just like, she's embodying something that we gotta put on television.

• 40:18Speaker 03

  No one, like, she really wears a chunky necklace well, even though she's got, you know, she's quite.

• 40:23Griffin Newman?

  A skinny frame.

• 40:23Speaker 03

  And a leather jacket. Yeah, but the necklaces still don't wear her. She likes a slightly puffed shoulder. We had a lot of like slightly puffed shoulders.

• 40:30David Sims?

  Well, so the bee, we met the bee.

• 40:32Griffin Newman?

  We met the bee.

• 40:32David Sims?

  In 2012, the year the amps came out.

• 40:34Griffin Newman?

  The apartment 23.

• 40:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, don't trust her.

• 40:36Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 40:37David Sims?

  Don't you trust?

• 40:37Griffin Newman?

  And I've told this story before, but I lived in a building in apartment 22 at that time. And I kept filling out forms wrong. No, I truly, when I had to fill out my address, I kept thinking like, I live in apartment 23, right? And I couldn't remember if it was me or the bee. And the mail kept getting delivered to my next door neighbor. And they were like, you fucking filled it out for 23 again.

• 40:59Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 41:00Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. That's true story.

• 41:02David Sims?

  The bee is supposed to be, she's kind of, um, she's kind of coming off her indie sleep. You know, she's like a party girl who's sort of like, do I need to stop?

• 41:11Speaker 03

  Is this sustainable? No, no, no, no, no. The bee loves her lifestyle. That's the whole thing.

• 41:15David Sims?

  You're right.

• 41:16Speaker 03

  She does not grow or change.

• 41:17David Sims?

  She's no good because she's the bee.

• 41:18Speaker 03

  She's the bee. Like she, she, she's fond of the people she's fond of. Her best friend, James Vanderbeek, playing James Vanderbeek.

• 41:24David Sims?

  I know. Also was plausible that she'd be friends with, you know, kind of post, post, post Dawson's Creek, James Vanderbeek.

• 41:32Speaker 03

  I mean, he's so good on that show. It's such a funny bit.

• 41:34Griffin Newman?

  And it was Eric Andre and Dreama Walker?

• 41:36David Sims?

  Eric Andre, Dreama Walker was the nice girl, right?

• 41:38Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 41:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, she was the nice girl who moved in as the roommate who, um.

• 41:41David Sims?

  Who won't, she won't be bead.

• 41:43Speaker 03

  She won't be bead and all the other roommates have been bead. So the bee does begrudgingly respect her.

• 41:49David Sims?

  Apparently Eric Andre's character was meek.

• 41:51Speaker 03

  He was a lit-

• 41:51Griffin Newman?

  That's his name or the personality?

• 41:53Speaker 03

  No, he was-

• 41:53David Sims?

  The personality, I'm like, Eric Andre seems bad cast-

• 41:56Speaker 03

  Cause he was like Dream of Walker's-

• 41:57David Sims?

  I'm shy!

• 41:58Speaker 03

  -coworker at Starbucks, basically.

• 42:00Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 42:01Speaker 03

  And he like, liked her.

• 42:02Griffin Newman?

  He was an awkward guy.

• 42:03Speaker 03

  But it was weird casting, knowing what Eric Andre is and can do. And I don't think they ever really got a chance to let him do that. It also aired completely out of order. So just like Vamps, it got a very weird release situation and it never, um, really-

• 42:15Griffin Newman?

  Was it two seasons or one?

• 42:16Speaker 03

  Two.

• 42:17Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 42:17Speaker 03

  But the second season aired completely out of order.

• 42:20Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 42:20David Sims?

  Right, the second season got that-

• 42:21Speaker 03

  I think it's still out of order on Hulu, like you do have to like-

• 42:23David Sims?

  ABC sitcom treatment where they were like, hmm.

• 42:26Speaker 03

  But there was some plot, like there wasn't a ton of like overarching plot, but enough where you're like, wait, what is this?

• 42:31David Sims?

  Like, I mean, happy endings had the same experience.

• 42:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:34David Sims?

  ABC was just always a little bit like-

• 42:36Speaker 03

  I feel like-

• 42:36David Sims?

  What, you like these?

• 42:38Speaker 03

  I liked happy endings. I feel like I said this to you, like the way a lot of people feel about happy endings and being, they were, you know, a lot of people were very devastated by happy endings ending. I was sad, but I was so much sadder about the B.

• 42:48Griffin Newman?

  Kristen Ritter was on her kind of version of a Zooey Deschanel track where she kept playing like best friends and being like, man, she's really good with like the like off the shoulder, like one line responses. The sort of side snark. And then they clearly were like, can we make her a lead? And Don't Trust the Bee was like part of that project, right?

• 43:08Speaker 03

  But the B, and but the fact that the B didn't change is maybe what made people not totally, you know, get with it. They were like, but she's supposed to grow and change. And she was like, I don't have any interest in seeing that.

• 43:18Griffin Newman?

  Well, she wasn't really the protagonist of the show.

• 43:20Speaker 03

  No, it was Dream of-

• 43:21Griffin Newman?

  The main character, right?

• 43:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:22Griffin Newman?

  But this thing I think about all the time with her, um, I think she had several children and kind of like disappeared for a bunch of years. And now of course was in Sonic three and seems to be working more. But like for someone who was so omnipresent, really in like the first half of the 2010s.

• 43:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, because it was that, it was Jessica Jones.

• 43:41Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 43:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:42David Sims?

  She's so great in Jessica Jones.

• 43:43Speaker 03

  She's great.

• 43:44Griffin Newman?

  She's great.

• 43:44David Sims?

  Yeah. Jessica Jones kind of, season one of Jessica Jones, such an unambiguous success in an era of superhero TV that is largely not.

• 43:53Speaker 03

  So immediately different, so-

• 43:54David Sims?

  Right.

• 43:55Speaker 03

  Interesting. And the tenant, tenant character is so scary, so-

• 43:58Griffin Newman?

  He's so great. Kind of the only one of those Netflix seasons that has like holy-

• 44:01David Sims?

  Exactly. I don't remember much about the other two seasons.

• 44:03Speaker 03

  No, I kind of forgot there were the two seasons that I'm sure I watched and reviewed them all.

• 44:07Griffin Newman?

  I don't know, guys, iron fists.

• 44:09David Sims?

  I mean, that guy did have the fist of iron.

• 44:12Griffin Newman?

  And it's stuck with me.

• 44:14David Sims?

  I remember every part of it.

• 44:16Speaker 03

  It was like, it was Jessica Jones and it was Daredevil and those, and now Daredevil's back, but where's Jessica Jones?

• 44:20David Sims?

  In my head.

• 44:20Speaker 03

  I was surprised she wasn't on it ever.

• 44:22David Sims?

  She, my guess is they're waiting to do something cool with it.

• 44:26Griffin Newman?

  That's another casting that everyone kind of agrees with unambiguously, like worked.

• 44:30David Sims?

  It did work, which when it was announced, I was completely like, not, that's not how I imagined that character.

• 44:36Griffin Newman?

  The obvious type.

• 44:37David Sims?

  Yeah. But I liked the character a lot in comics.

• 44:40Griffin Newman?

  Here's, here's what I was going to say. I have a very vivid memory of this and I think about this way too often. She does Don't Trust the Bee. And it was just sort of like, okay, this lasted two seasons and it made it to air, but it didn't quite work. And it felt like all the networks were like, there's probably a hit show starring Kristen Ritter and we want to solve what it is. She feels like she should be the lead of a hit show. And it, these are the final years of like the traditional pilot system.

• 45:08David Sims?

  Like, let's get you a show.

• 45:09Griffin Newman?

  Right. Where like every January, before they start auditioning, the networks all start like competing with each other. The pile of script, spec scripts that they have acquired, being like, if we can attach a big name to this, this is a go pilot. And someone like Kristen Ritter, who was seen as like hot, you know, and had like value, and was ready to be the star of a TV show, they're all sending her their like 20 best scripts and being like, do you like any of these? And for, I want to say, three years in a row, Kristen Ritter signed on, straight off her first position, big pilot show, that didn't go. And I would, I was stuck in these fucking pilot system runners every year and

• 45:53Griffin Newman?

  being like, well, this script's really good. And it's got Kristen Ritter. This show's definitely gonna happen.

• 45:58Speaker 03

  Do you remember what any of them were about?

• 46:00Griffin Newman?

  One of them, I believe, was written by our friend Leslie Headland. That was an adaptation of her play Assistance.

• 46:05Speaker 03

  Oh, yes, yes. I remember that.

• 46:07Griffin Newman?

  Sort of loosely fictionalized her nightmare experiences, working at the Weinstein company.

• 46:11Speaker 03

  Right, yeah, I remember this.

• 46:13Griffin Newman?

  And Alfred Molina was gonna play the Weinstein analog.

• 46:15Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 46:16Griffin Newman?

  And was a real good, dark script.

• 46:18Speaker 03

  Yes. That would be Alfred Molina. Let's clarify.

• 46:21Griffin Newman?

  There was another one that was like, I want to say a 60s NASA space race show. And there's one other one I'm forgetting, but in that era. It's like someone like Kristen Ritter has to make a big choice every January of which pilot she's attaching herself to, and yet it just might not get picked up. And if that's the case, everyone basically goes, cool, we'll see you in a year.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  Well, the interesting thing about her too, is that, I mean, when you mentioned those two things and then mentioning the bee vamps, that kind of stuff, her taste is, you know, a little bit more offbeat than I feel like she might get credit for. It's the kind of thing too, when I was watching this and when I watched him, it can never be a woman for the first time. And I was kind of thinking about all the heckling stuff, just to get myself in the, the state of mind. I was like, oh, heckling is a fucking weirdo too. And she's a, she is.

• 47:10Griffin Newman?

  It's, it's a good.

• 47:11Speaker 03

  Complimentary. She is.

• 47:12David Sims?

  She's a little goth weirdo herself.

• 47:14Speaker 03

  Right. And like, you know, she like choices, like, you know, all men is mother earth, that kind of thing where you're like, what are we doing here?

• 47:19David Sims?

  Well, that's a choice I might have advised her on, right? Her royal vizier.

• 47:23Speaker 03

  But it's a strong choice nonetheless. And it's the kind of thing that it seems like Kristen Ritter really responds to is this kind of stuff where it's slightly off. And I'm not surprised that the pilots she chose then did not catch on.

• 47:35Griffin Newman?

  They were all good. I remember every year being like, well, this is the best script this year and being astounded when it wouldn't get picked up for who knows what fucking reason. I even think one of them got picked up and then like unpicked up at some point.

• 47:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, I feel like probably, especially knowing Leslie's, you know,

• 47:52Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 47:52Speaker 03

  what the plays are like. And then what happened? I mean, she, she did Bachelorette. She managed to make that.

• 47:56Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 47:57Speaker 03

  Pretty vicious, but not as vicious, that kind of thing.

• 48:00Griffin Newman?

  I think it was trying to do the same.

• 48:01Speaker 03

  I'm sure she got network notes to death.

• 48:02Griffin Newman?

  Yes. But like the, the old rigid pilot system network TV model at a time where people were still kind of wary of going to cable or going to streaming. And also the money was so fucking good. If you could get on a hit show, there was no off cycle. That was like the calendar in which the thing happened. And if you picked the wrong thing in the spring, you were fucked until the next year. Right? And in between, it's like Kristen Ritter's like, okay, so I, do I like? Play X's snarky best friend again in a Paramount movie? Or do I play like the lead in a like a lower budget Amy Heckerling movie? And then next year, hopefully I get another shot at TV. And then it felt like she did the Jessica Jones move at the moment where it was like,

• 48:45Griffin Newman?

  yeah, streaming does seem to be the place to go. And if you're playing a Marvel character, that feels like you're set for your life. And the first season totally worked. And then like the entire Marvel Netflix experience like dissipates. And it's, yeah, there's just like seven year run of interesting energy from Kristen Ritter that then has kind of like pulled back.

• 49:04David Sims?

  You're talking about, did you not hear the echoes?

• 49:09Griffin Newman?

  Oh, that was a Marvel spotlight, wasn't it?

• 49:11Speaker 03

  It was not.

• 49:12David Sims?

  What if Orphan Black had an echo? Orphan Black echoes.

• 49:16Griffin Newman?

  Oh, she on that?

• 49:17Speaker 03

  Echo, he was the star.

• 49:19David Sims?

  Of it.

• 49:20Griffin Newman?

  Has that already come and gone?

• 49:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:21David Sims?

  Of course, you want.

• 49:22Speaker 03

  What if Orphan Black did not have?

• 49:24David Sims?

  You were like, you guys echo tonight? Do you guys hear the echo?

• 49:27Speaker 03

  What if Orphan Black did not have Tatiana? Tatiana Maslany was basically the.

• 49:31Griffin Newman?

  Well, this is like Hollywood's newest greatest pitch, Tron Ares. We all know that your least favorite thing about those Tron movies is that they take place inside a computer. Can't we get out of that damn boring world and place Tron on the streets of Los Angeles?

• 49:47David Sims?

  Look, every time I see that trailer, I laugh. Right. But it is one of those things where I was just like, that was like truly a great way to wound me.

• 49:55Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 49:55David Sims?

  Where I'm like, I love the insane logic of the video game world, right? And they're like, no, no, the bike should go on a street, like a highway.

• 50:02Griffin Newman?

  I don't hate the trailer, but it just, it feels so fundamentally perverse to me of being like, don't worry, no circuit boards this time.

• 50:09David Sims?

  It's what you do with Tron eight.

• 50:11Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 50:11David Sims?

  Like, right, you know, anyway.

• 50:12Speaker 03

  Which Tron is this?

• 50:13Griffin Newman?

  Three Tron Ares.

• 50:14Speaker 03

  Oh, I'm sorry.

• 50:15Griffin Newman?

  In which Jared Leto plays a computer virus who comes to our world.

• 50:18David Sims?

  He sounds fun.

• 50:19Speaker 03

  You know, that sounds about right for where Jared Leto came from.

• 50:21Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, I forgot to mention it's a documentary.

• 50:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:23David Sims?

  My thing with Kristen Ritter was that she was on Veronica Mars for like eight episodes. And then she was on Gilmore Girls for eight episodes. And then she was on Breaking Bad. And it was one of those things where it's like, huh, that saucer eyed goth keeps popping up. And so you did feel it in the air of like, yeah, they're trying to find the thing for

• 50:40Griffin Newman?

  That's another like sort of Star Trek thing is like giving people good extended arcs.

• 50:46David Sims?

  Yes.

• 50:46Griffin Newman?

  Right. And it's clear that there's just like, we have negotiated for six episodes, not that she's like being brought back. Because she's working like they're like, we have planned an arc that we're pitching to you. And it just felt like she was on the cusp of something bigger for so long. I always like her. And I will say, watching this movie, it stirred things in me that I had not felt in a long time.

• 51:08David Sims?

  Oh, you were.

• 51:09Griffin Newman?

  I find her very appealing in this.

• 51:11David Sims?

  You find a pale woman very appealing?

• 51:14Griffin Newman?

  This is what's odd. She is so much my type, and yet it was never registering for me previously as hard as it did while watching this.

• 51:20David Sims?

  You were in a show with her, were you not?

• 51:22Griffin Newman?

  Was she on Political Animals?

• 51:24David Sims?

  No. Are you not in Gravity?

• 51:26Griffin Newman?

  I am, but I did not work with her. You are right. I was on four episodes of the deeply remembered Starz original series. I think it was Starz first original series. This, of course, is a Starz movie. But yes, she was the lead of Gravity, and I played a gay computer hacker.

• 51:43David Sims?

  Uh, fabulous.

• 51:45Griffin Newman?

  That was one of my lines, yeah.

• 51:46Speaker 03

  That's right. I was trying to figure out, remember who Kristen Ritter played on Veronica Mars? I thought she was the recast of Leighton Meester, but no, she was playing Steve Guttenberg's daughter.

• 51:54David Sims?

  Yeah, it's not a good time for the show. She often would appear on these shows when the show's kind of.

• 52:00Speaker 03

  Or past the peak of the thing.

• 52:02David Sims?

  Yes, right past their peak.

• 52:03Griffin Newman?

  Well, that was season two, which was kind of a dip, and then three was an upswing.

• 52:07David Sims?

  Is it two that she's in or three?

• 52:08Speaker 03

  I think it's two.

• 52:09David Sims?

  Yes.

• 52:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:10David Sims?

  Interesting. It's flawed.

• 52:12Griffin Newman?

  Two's goodie.

• 52:13David Sims?

  Yeah, it's real goodie.

• 52:14Speaker 03

  Just very clear that it had the one season arc, but anyway, yes, but she's very sweet and vamps. There's one line in it that's so the B that I was like, oh, this is where she was. Where, um, you know, the introduction of Homeland Security is the big bad comes in, which I have so much to say about. And she just goes, oh, the terrorists ruined it for everyone, ruined things for everyone. It was such a B line.

• 52:32Griffin Newman?

  Movie has a lot of good lines. I do think maybe that's part of it, though, is like, her thing is usually the like acid sarcasm. And this.

• 52:42David Sims?

  Wide-eyed innocent here.

• 52:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, she's just completely lovely, bubbly.

• 52:47Griffin Newman?

  Which she does really well, and yet still has like the Kristen Ritter darkness to her, which I think so much of it is the like. And we should crack open the dossier, but so much of these interviews we read with Amy Heckerling, like the ongoing theme of her work is like the fight between the pessimist and the optimist, that she inherently feels like this dark, tortured,

• 53:06David Sims?

  Agree.

• 53:06Griffin Newman?

  acidic, critical person, and yet she loves making movies about optimists.

• 53:11David Sims?

  It's also, it's The New Yorker and the Los Angelino, right? Yes.

• 53:15Speaker 03

  I mean, it's very, what was, what was that, you know, not to go, oh, let's quote a tweet, but the, the tweet I do think, the one tweet I think about the most is, um, someone called LA shitty heaven and New York fun hell. And you know what?

• 53:30Griffin Newman?

  Really? Good.

• 53:32Speaker 03

  Having lived in both now.

• 53:33David Sims?

  Yeah. You're allowed.

• 53:34Griffin Newman?

  I just think that there is, both of these characters feel like stand-ins for Heckerling in different ways, but there's something in casting Kristen Ritter to play an optimist that feels like you are, for the first time, physicalizing the innate tension within her work in one character.

• 53:54David Sims?

  So Amy Heckerling releases a film called I Could Never Be Your Woman in 2007 and made like two or $300 million.

• 54:03David Sims?

  And so unsurprisingly starts to explore the world of episodic television after that because it's such an anonymous film. And so she does direct the sixth episode of the first season of The Office.

• 54:16Griffin Newman?

  The introduction of Amy Adams.

• 54:17David Sims?

  Hot girl.

• 54:18Griffin Newman?

  Yes. Arguably the best episode of the first season.

• 54:21David Sims?

  I'm just gonna say it.

• 54:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 54:23David Sims?

  No, I, no, no Office. I won't, I won't be discussing that show.

• 54:27Griffin Newman?

  It's the new Juilliard.

• 54:30Griffin Newman?

  We're never gonna let you live down your fucking Juilliard anger.

• 54:33David Sims?

  That's fine.

• 54:33Griffin Newman?

  Our Superman episode.

• 54:36David Sims?

  You know, the thing with The Office is.

• 54:38Speaker 03

  See, I thought we were not discussing The Office.

• 54:40Griffin Newman?

  Oh, David.

• 54:41David Sims?

  Um, I just won't, I won't be engaging with that. Try to show me some nostalgic clip of.

• 54:47Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 54:48David Sims?

  You know, some hijinks on the, I'm like, no, I don't wish for that to be in my life anymore.

• 54:51Griffin Newman?

  It is bizarre.

• 54:52David Sims?

  Not that it was ever a big part of my life because I never loved the show, but I certainly watched the show pretty much through the end. I guess I sort of fell off after Corolla. Making a weird face looking.

• 55:04David Sims?

  The camera's kind of zooming in on you.

• 55:06Griffin Newman?

  I'm doing like a crash zoom.

• 55:08David Sims?

  Maybe we'll check in with you later in the, in the talking head segment.

• 55:11Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, maybe you have something to say later behind closed doors, straight to camera.

• 55:14David Sims?

  So like when you say the Amy Adams episode of The Office, I'm like, I saw it one time.

• 55:18Speaker 03

  Okay, but her directing that episode is actually kind of perfect.

• 55:21David Sims?

  Is it?

• 55:22Speaker 03

  Well, because.

• 55:22David Sims?

  She's, she's a pro.

• 55:23Speaker 03

  Well, because she comes in to sell bags and everyone thinks she's hot.

• 55:26David Sims?

  Amy Adams.

• 55:26Speaker 03

  Amy Adams does. And it's like, she is presented very much as what if Pam were hot is kind of the thing, which is rude to Pam.

• 55:34Griffin Newman?

  Right. And it activates the thing in.

• 55:37Speaker 03

  Her hair is even redder. She's like, you know, her sweater is actually fit. Like she and Jim get along and there's no obstacle. And that's, but it's like, that's very, feeling's good at that.

• 55:46Griffin Newman?

  Activates the thing in her of she is still engaged to the fucking guy in the, the warehouse. Uh, and is just sort of like having fun, like sort of having this side flirtation with Jim. And then she sees for the first time, like the idea of him being with someone else, which activates jealousy in her.

• 56:02Speaker 03

  And she didn't write that. I mean, I can't imagine she wrote that, but there's also that extended, um, the extended bit where it's cause like, there's a fire alarm or something. Is that, or no, that's when, that's later. Amy Adams comes back and there's a whole desert island movie bit. That's different.

• 56:14Griffin Newman?

  Amy did a whole little arc across the first two seasons.

• 56:17David Sims?

  Wasn't she already, I guess it's sort of like right when she's starting to get bigger, like Junebug era?

• 56:21Griffin Newman?

  Correct. It's like she, once she gets the Oscar nomination for Junebug, she unsurprisingly never comes back to The Office.

• 56:26David Sims?

  Interesting.

• 56:27Griffin Newman?

  But she is on it a handful of times, leading right up to that.

• 56:30Speaker 03

  Yes, but Amy Heckerling doing, oh, um, I'm insecure around this hot woman.

• 56:33Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 56:34Speaker 03

  That tracks.

• 56:34Griffin Newman?

  And like, The Office had kind of overqualified directors, especially as it went on.

• 56:41David Sims?

  Yeah, I would have people.

• 56:42Griffin Newman?

  It was Paul Feig and Harold Ramis and Jason Reitman. And it was just sort of like, this is a cool show. The movie directors can work on and not have it seem like their career slipped down a rung. And there's maybe a larger sea change in the industry happening around that time where like her doing TV doesn't look as bad as it would have five years earlier even.

• 57:02David Sims?

  Yes. Um.

• 57:04David Sims?

  Well, she does that and then she gets signed on to 1985, which was basically like, do you want to do a Wonder Years? Like an Amy Heckerling Wonder Years?

• 57:15Griffin Newman?

  Makes sense.

• 57:16David Sims?

  A show that would center on a girl growing up in the eighties, narrated by a woman in the present day. I mean, it sounds fine. Plans to use music of the period is about it truly is. They might as well just be like Wonder Years. We're gonna do a Wonder Years. But none of that came to fruition and instead in 2012, we get Vamps. Now in 2005, we get Twilight. In 2008, we get the movie Twilight. 2008, we got True Blood. 2009, we get CW's The Vampire Diaries. Relax, Ben.

• 57:48Griffin Newman?

  He has a knife?

• 57:50David Sims?

  But Heckerling says she more is drafting off of Buffy as a sort of an earlier vampire work.

• 58:00Griffin Newman?

  And even more specifically that her brother was obsessed with the Buffy movie. And she was like, I want to do something like this. And then she went to the original producers of the movie and pitched it to them and then was like, you idiot.

• 58:11Speaker 03

  You already did this, yeah?

• 58:11Griffin Newman?

  They're not going to say yes to this if they've already done a thing like this. But there was a bit of a micro trend, I feel, in the post Twilight Vampire Diaries, True Blood landscape.

• 58:26Speaker 03

  Well, and Buffy was pre Twilight and that's where that was my seminal vampire for sure.

• 58:31Griffin Newman?

  Sure. But I think those three things getting big and being cool and sexy, right? You would feel this thing of like, maybe somewhat forgotten directors coming out and being like, well, I have a vampire script where it felt like, are vampires just innately bankable? Is it easier to get money if you have a vampire hook? Only Lovers Left Alive comes out two years after this? One year after.

• 58:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:57Griffin Newman?

  But was a similar thing. I feel like when he was doing interviews where he was like, this is not a post Twilight movie for me. I was not inspired by this. This is a thing I couldn't get made until Twilight, which is exactly what happened to her.

• 59:07David Sims?

  Makes sense that suddenly it's just a little bit more like, oh, well vampires are in right now. So sure.

• 59:14Griffin Newman?

  Vampires are such an elastic metaphor. It is actually kind of wild how many different pointed ways you can use vampirism to say something, be it personal or cultural. That it makes sense that a lot of different directors would be like, yeah, I can make a personal vampire movie. That's not me just cashing in on trend. That's me Trojan horse and something else I want to say.

• 59:37Speaker 02

  What was Nosferatu's whole deal?

• 59:40Speaker 04

  What do you mean? What is my deal?

• 59:43Speaker 03

  Do we all enjoy Sigourney Weaver doing Nosferatu?

• 59:46Speaker 04

  Yes, she is so tall.

• 59:48Griffin Newman?

  She does a lot of bitch. She does like a full kind of fucking Mad TV audition reel.

• 59:52Speaker 04

  It's a few racist jokes. Yes. Some of these cultural stereotypes seem antiquated. I understand that's the point of the character.

• 1:00:02Speaker 02

  I also get full from Chinese food. I don't know what she's talking about.

• 1:00:05David Sims?

  Dude, that is one of those things where I'm like, Chinese food is very heavy. I laugh often.

• 1:00:10Griffin Newman?

  This is offensive on two levels. No, it's culturally regressive and wrong.

• 1:00:15David Sims?

  It is one of those racist old jokes you hear, I guess.

• 1:00:19Speaker 03

  She puts on like a Gilbert Gottfried voice to do it. It's.

• 1:00:21David Sims?

  Maybe Sigourney's always had a bit of the Gottfried in her. I don't know.

• 1:00:25Speaker 03

  I mean, I, she does, she's looking like she's having fun. She's basically playing like, you know, what if Zul had fun?

• 1:00:31David Sims?

  Right, right.

• 1:00:32Speaker 03

  You know, that's very her vibe in the, like the ending scene where she's like floating towards people.

• 1:00:36Griffin Newman?

  There's the one scene where they dressed her in a way that feels very evocative where they give her the full perm and she's in the kind of gold dress.

• 1:00:42Speaker 03

  And there's no way they didn't think of that. So this is also Monamay, right? The same costume designer as.

• 1:00:46Griffin Newman?

  Oh, really?

• 1:00:47Speaker 03

  I think, yeah, this is the same costume designer as Clueless.

• 1:00:49Griffin Newman?

  Yes, that makes sense.

• 1:00:51Speaker 03

  Which like, you know, you can also tell everything's so rooted in time period. There are so many very specific time period things. And that's something too, that I feel like Kecel is so, like it doesn't surprise me at all that someone tried to get her to do a 1985 movie because each one of her films, what, and not even just because of the references they make.

• 1:01:07David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:07Speaker 03

  Like not even just the references, which are obviously specific, even though the situation has endured. He is a sober father now. He's doing very well. But everything is so rooted in the time period that it's in to a degree that can be uncomfortable. If you lived through it, I get it.

• 1:01:20Griffin Newman?

  It can. And it's also like there's.

• 1:01:22Speaker 03

  Pointed content.

• 1:01:23Griffin Newman?

  I think there is a certain discomfort I feel watching it in seeing them try to evoke that specifically on such limited resources where it starts to feel like a weird kind of cosplay hollow evocation, just because they don't have the space to get it right. Like something like Clueless, which is obviously exaggerated in a cartoonified version. And they talk about sort of like, we were amplifying and exaggerating the fashion trends. And then they sort of became their own fashion trends.

• 1:01:54Speaker 03

  And they were also working with, you know, more expensive clothes in the first place because these kids are rich.

• 1:01:59Griffin Newman?

  Morimae did like a very good job with what she was allotted, but you feel it stuck slightly in a weird space of being like a little more heightened and realistic, but not heightened enough to be funny, if that makes sense.

• 1:02:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's also because I feel like sometimes it's a little hard to tell when it is supposed to be like, I feel like a lot of the clothes Kristen Ritter wears in this movie are, they are of the 2012s, but through the like, they are also trying to be through the lens of she was turned in the eighties. So like, everything is a little exaggerated.

• 1:02:31Griffin Newman?

  Yep. Here's what I think is so.

• 1:02:34Speaker 04

  No silence. I had something to say.

• 1:02:37Griffin Newman?

  What do you have?

• 1:02:38Speaker 04

  No, go ahead.

• 1:02:39Speaker 03

  No, no, I just imagine you doing the, the hands that they do in this movie when they're trying to get people to.

• 1:02:43Speaker 04

  Let you think. When you remember what you want to say. I am displeased that Sinners has done better than my movie. I'm so sad. I have no choice but to go fuck.

• 1:02:58Speaker 04

  I'm horny, slow horny. The kind of horny I am is very slow. I am single and ready to mingle.

• 1:03:07Griffin Newman?

  He's like, he hollers at you, but he's like, he hollers at you by being like, in three days, I will very slowly fuck you. Like, so it's like, it's a long wait.

• 1:03:16Speaker 03

  It will be great.

• 1:03:17Griffin Newman?

  Right. But then when he fucks you, he's gonna like crawl up the bed. Yes, he's a big edger. God, is he edging it up.

• 1:03:23Speaker 04

  Was your father a baker? Because it looks like you are smuggling two buns.

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  This is kind of crass to me, but.

• 1:03:33Speaker 03

  Let's go.

• 1:03:33Speaker 02

  I think Nosferatu probably goons.

• 1:03:35David Sims?

  I'm always gooning in my cast.

• 1:03:40Speaker 04

  I have so many tabs open.

• 1:03:44David Sims?

  I owe OnlyFans thousands of duckets. Whatever they whatever money.

• 1:03:53Speaker 04

  I send more duckets than they're asking for.

• 1:03:57David Sims?

  They're like, this will be $10. You can have 15. I'm big like that.

• 1:04:03Speaker 04

  How much for a decorating?

• 1:04:06Speaker 03

  I'm so pleased I get to see that.

• 1:04:07Griffin Newman?

  Of course.

• 1:04:08David Sims?

  We, oh my goodness.

• 1:04:09Speaker 03

  We have. Yeah, every vampire has their thing. You know, his is being a sex freak. A lot of vampires are sex freaks. The thing that they're not.

• 1:04:16David Sims?

  She says is often in vampire stuff. It's sex, True Blood and Twilight, obviously. That's the sort of big thing with the metaphor here, but no, she's much more interested in the agelessness. The idea of being eternally young, but from different time periods.

• 1:04:30Griffin Newman?

  Here's the super potent thing in this movie that once I locked into this is what she's doing. I was on board, which is she is commenting on her weird state as a person whose currency professionally comes from Amy Heckerling is good at understanding the youth, the younger generations, what is hip, what is cool, what is new? She has done this across decades, right? Not just that she do it when she was young, but she was able to still lock into it 10, 15 years later. And like, what is this weird balance of being someone whose life is about trying to stay professionally engaged with what is young and new and hip? When part of her is also just like, I like old gangster movies, right? Like, I don't want to deal with this shit.

• 1:05:15Griffin Newman?

  And it's this fight of just being like, it is exhausting. As much as like people like the idea of staying young forever, how badly do I now just want to let myself be an old woman and just not have to keep up with this shit?

• 1:05:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. No goody in the.

• 1:05:30Griffin Newman?

  How long should we just go to clubs every night?

• 1:05:32David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:05:33Griffin Newman?

  And have to worry about the right outfits and knowing the right bands and all this shit.

• 1:05:36David Sims?

  She's a night person, she says. She's always figured such a lifestyle might be fun for a while. Eternal youth in New York. Um, she liked playing around with the slang from different eras. It's kind of fun. Um, she, which she's always kind of like to play around with slang. Uh, she doesn't like the Twilight vampires. She doesn't like that they can be outside in the daytime.

• 1:06:00Speaker 03

  I mean, that is the thing. Like what I didn't, I wasn't a Twilight, you know, early adopter, girly, ironic or otherwise. But when I found out that they can go into the sunlight and not only can they, but it makes them beautiful twinkling creatures.

• 1:06:13Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:14Speaker 03

  Like, these are fucking unicorns. Like, these are not.

• 1:06:16Griffin Newman?

  Excuse me. Carol, it's not making a beautiful twinkly creature. That is the skin of a monster. I'm a monster, a horny monster. Um, she's. Really good fucking Edward Cullen impression there.

• 1:06:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, wow.

• 1:06:30Griffin Newman?

  I'm Edward Cullen. Ah, you smell disgusting. Let me get up in those guts.

• 1:06:34Speaker 03

  That's the Edward Cullen in the world where Wallace Shawn is Mr. Ben Helsing.

• 1:06:38David Sims?

  Yep, well.

• 1:06:38Griffin Newman?

  God, what a.

• 1:06:39Speaker 03

  It took us a long time to get there.

• 1:06:44Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 1:06:44David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:45Griffin Newman?

  This episode is brought to you by XYZ Films and the acclaimed new documentary Capturing Bigfoot. On October 20th, 1967, Roger Patterson captured 59 seconds of film showing a creature walking through the Northern California woods. I wonder if you can log that on Letterboxd.

• 1:07:02David Sims?

  It is an iconic video.

• 1:07:03Griffin Newman?

  Footage that became the most analyzed and debated in history. 59 years later, a reel of 16 millimeter film discovered in a safe changes everything. Capturing Bigfoot reveals the untold story behind the world's greatest mystery told for the first time by Patterson's own son and the people who were there. This is a story about family legacy, broken friendships, and how far people will go to protect a secret.

• 1:07:26David Sims?

  Of course, you got the classic, what they call Patterson Gimlin film. Everyone knows of Bigfoot out in the woods, like the famous Bigfoot picture. This has other stuff shot by him that no one's ever seen. That's what makes this movie different.

• 1:07:37Griffin Newman?

  But we're also talking brand new 4K scans of the original film taken from the Patterson family archives that some historians have called the best rendering of the footage ever seen.

• 1:07:46David Sims?

  I feel like we've all seen that footage as like grainy.

• 1:07:49Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:07:50David Sims?

  You know, that you see, you know, whatever. You see it in a documentary for two seconds, but this is. Storing it and making it look much more clear.

• 1:07:57Griffin Newman?

  There's also a companion podcast, the Capturing Bigfoot Podcast, which goes deeper into the legend and lore of Bigfoot and the Patterson Gimlin film, featuring weekly episodes with experts in cryptozoology, urban legends, and filmmaking.

• 1:08:11David Sims?

  I'm something of an expert in cryptozoology.

• 1:08:13Griffin Newman?

  Well, of course, yes, but that's more of a hobby.

• 1:08:15David Sims?

  Yeah, this podcast, Capturing Bigfoot Podcast, is hosted by the director of the film, Mark Evans, and it's available for free on YouTube and Spotify with exclusive episodes and content available on Patreon to members of the Capturing Bigfoot Society.

• 1:08:31Griffin Newman?

  Capturing Bigfoot is now available to rent or own on Amazon Prime Video. Learn more about Capturing Bigfoot at capturingbigfoot.com.

• 1:08:46David Sims?

  One movie that she kind of liked was, she's obviously seen Nosferatu or Bela Lugosi's Dracula or whatever. She really kind of-

• 1:08:55Griffin Newman?

  Really, this movie that shows no interest in German Expressionism?

• 1:08:58David Sims?

  But she really kind of enjoyed Gerard Butler's Dracula 2000.

• 1:09:01Griffin Newman?

  Oh, sure.

• 1:09:02David Sims?

  She says, I liked his take on it. It was as though Dracula was doomed or cursed because he was Judas, and that's why he doesn't like seeing crosses. It's a very different take on Dracula. She doubts that. She likes monster movies in general. She likes The Wolfman with Lon Chaney.

• 1:09:15Griffin Newman?

  The universal classics.

• 1:09:17David Sims?

  She thinks vampires are a good metaphor for Jews, outsiders that feel disenfranchised from whatever else is doing.

• 1:09:23Griffin Newman?

  Trying to pass.

• 1:09:24Speaker 03

  So that's, I mean, that's the, do you, are you, are you speeding speeding through these or should I?

• 1:09:28Griffin Newman?

  Caroline, what gives you that vibe? I feel like he's taking a lot of time and consideration for everything he's saying.

• 1:09:33Speaker 03

  He's got his bullet point. I'm just like-

• 1:09:34David Sims?

  I'm looking at the dossier. It's fucking long.

• 1:09:37Griffin Newman?

  Caroline, what do you, what, did that spark in you?

• 1:09:39Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, I mean, I do, I feel like with, when I first started rewatching Vans, oh, I don't think I ever said how I watched Vans in the first place.

• 1:09:46Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:09:47David Sims?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:09:48Speaker 03

  I was trying to remember how the hell I saw-

• 1:09:49David Sims?

  I had not seen it. Until yesterday.

• 1:09:53Speaker 03

  Really? Okay, so none of you had seen it until this week?

• 1:09:55David Sims?

  No, no.

• 1:09:55Speaker 03

  So that's why when David expressed shock that I'd never seen it, I was trying to remember how the hell I saw it. I was in LA in 2012. I moved out there in 2011 and I was like, did I go to the one theater it was, it was released in?

• 1:10:06Griffin Newman?

  There was not very thorough box office reporting on this, but Box Office Mojo claims it played in one theater for two weeks. Now, I remember it playing in at least one theater in New York City. I remember intending to go see it, I want to say at the Village East, and it was gone before I got around to it. It was really like a movie that stars Anchor Bay, primarily a DVD distributor and a television network.

• 1:10:34David Sims?

  Of like fancy DVDs, kind of a cheapo DVD distributor.

• 1:10:38Griffin Newman?

  Mostly like cult horror movies, doing like 40 editions of Evil Dead and whatever. Got the distribution rights for this movie, sort of a bit after filming had wrapped. And they announced it as like, Vamps getting a theatrical release will be available to rent digitally 10 days later. Which in 2012, that did not happen often, that the turnaround was that quick? And was sort of like screened contractual obligation to put this in one theater? Maybe it was one week in one theater in LA and one week in one theater in New York?

• 1:11:09David Sims?

  Quite possible.

• 1:11:09Speaker 03

  Maybe, I mean, but I do think, I was trying to trace it and you know, I don't have a totally satisfying answer to this because I never fully got it. But I asked my friend Karina, who I hung out with a lot when I first was in LA, where we might have seen this? Cause I was sure it was with her because I feel like when I first moved to LA, you know, the idea was I'm working in TV and I'm gonna like, say yes to everything and I'm like,

• 1:11:28Griffin Newman?

  Hollywood Framke.

• 1:11:28Speaker 03

  Hollywood Framke, Hollywood Fram. And I feel like it must have screened somewhere, her best guess, and she,

• 1:11:34Griffin Newman?

  Interesting.

• 1:11:34Speaker 03

  It might have been like a special screening at, there was a theater called Cine Family.

• 1:11:38Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, on Fairfax, which has since shut down for sex pest reasons.

• 1:11:41Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 1:11:42Speaker 03

  But they screened a lot of things and it would not have been out of the question for this, something like this to screen there. And I feel like, cause I definitely remember seeing it and we could have rented it, but I think we saw it in a theater. And I was just going to screenings, going to screenings. And when she was like, do you want to go to this thing? It's from the director of Clueless, it's about vampires. I'm like, what's not, you know, what's there not to like about that? And then I just never researched it any further and did not realize it was such a tortured, weird, obscure situation. And basically David asked me to be on the podcast.

• 1:12:10Griffin Newman?

  Basically a like a straight to VOD streaming disc.

• 1:12:15Speaker 03

  Before that, I just, I didn't even know. I just was like, but again, that was all the pitch I needed. So there was an audience.

• 1:12:22Griffin Newman?

  Yes. And a family was the kind of place to be like, we're gonna take Amy Heckerling seriously. Right. But I imagine, yes, probably disproportionately, the amount of people who ever saw this in a theater, saw it at screenings like that versus commercial release. I mean, what is the reported final box office cost for this movie? $10,000? $3,000. It's not amazing. You know what? You're right. It's not amazing.

• 1:12:48Speaker 03

  What was I gonna say before that? Oh, yes.

• 1:12:51Griffin Newman?

  But you enjoyed it.

• 1:12:52Speaker 03

  I enjoyed it. And I feel like what was interesting about revisiting it is that, you know, whenever you talk about any vampire story, any vampire story, whether it's a teenage thing, you know, a Buffy, a Vampire Diaries, a True Blood, a Sinners, any vampire story, inevitably, there's gonna be not just metaphors about sex or drugs. I feel like in this movie, it's much more drugs than sex until Justin Kirk and Mary Lou Henner have their moment than it's sex.

• 1:13:13Griffin Newman?

  And Justin Kirk feels like her pointed parody of the over-sexualized vampire.

• 1:13:18Speaker 03

  For sure. But she's less interested in, I mean, it's basically drugs, but it's kind of, she's, that's not what she's interested in. But I was like, this vampires are always a metaphor for marginalized people.

• 1:13:28Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:13:28Speaker 03

  Because they, you know, whether it's queer people, Jewish people, as Amy said, they're in the shadows, you know, sinners and the, you know, black Americans and Jim Crow South, there's always that. And when I first started this film, I was like, how weird to watch a vampire story where that's not the case. And then Wallace Shawn, king of Homeland Security comes in.

• 1:13:46Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:46Speaker 03

  And suddenly the movie's about the Patriot Act and having to delete people from databases so they don't disappear. And how interesting. What an interesting moment to watch that.

• 1:13:55Griffin Newman?

  As Dr. Van Helsing, head of Homeland Security, like that, that full reveal, like first, it's like, oh, here's Wallace Shawn. He's like a New York beat cop or detective. This is interesting casting. And then you realize, oh no, he is

• 1:14:10Speaker 03

  He's Homeland Security.

• 1:14:11Griffin Newman?

  Dr. Van Helsing, working for Homeland Security.

• 1:14:14Speaker 03

  And there's a very, like that first scene where he's going to find the body of the pizza guy.

• 1:14:18Griffin Newman?

  With Ivan Surjai, right.

• 1:14:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, but the, no, no, the pizza guy.

• 1:14:23Griffin Newman?

  Well, Ivan Surjai is his partner. Sorry. But Taylor Negron reprising implied the same pizza delivery guy from Fast Times. Yes.

• 1:14:31David Sims?

  He's also a delivery man in Johnny Dangerously.

• 1:14:33Speaker 03

  Yep. So this is a bit, but Sigourney killed him for for real. R I P.

• 1:14:37Griffin Newman?

  They headed him.

• 1:14:38Speaker 03

  And there's such a funny moment between the cop and Wallace Shawn where the cop like disdains him for being Homeland Security. He's like, go find a subway map and explosive and then we'll call you. Fuck off. Jesus.

• 1:14:48David Sims?

  Well, this movie is very, you know, again, like locked into specifically satirizing things like the Patriot Act.

• 1:14:56Speaker 03

  I mean, but that's so interesting.

• 1:14:57David Sims?

  It is. It's just, but it also like locks it in like, you know.

• 1:15:00Speaker 03

  Completely forgotten about that part of it. And it does give it something.

• 1:15:04David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:05Speaker 03

  That, you know, I don't know that she 100% needed to, but I find it really interesting that she wanted to and that she locked in on Homeland Security and the Patriot Act. And, you know.

• 1:15:15David Sims?

  What would, what would vampires fear in modern America? Maybe that's.

• 1:15:18Speaker 03

  Well, also because, you know, we're following two vampires who from the beginning were like, I have no interest in being a vampire who kills people, who enjoys killing, who likes human blood. I don't want any part of it.

• 1:15:30Griffin Newman?

  You're seeing the support group of like, here is the modern progressive vampire that wants to get away from the negative stereotypes.

• 1:15:35Speaker 03

  Including Vlad, the Impaler Tepish.

• 1:15:37Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, we should mention Malcolm McDowell plays that Vlad the Impaler.

• 1:15:40David Sims?

  He does.

• 1:15:41Griffin Newman?

  Who is now a chef.

• 1:15:42Speaker 03

  And he's very funny.

• 1:15:43Griffin Newman?

  He's very good in it. This whole cast is.

• 1:15:45Speaker 03

  That's, that's the thing. But it's just like, these are vampires.

• 1:15:47David Sims?

  Qualified cast or whatever.

• 1:15:49Speaker 02

  Well, he's a chef of caramel apples.

• 1:15:52Speaker 03

  The thing is, he's not a chef.

• 1:15:53Griffin Newman?

  He finds delicacy.

• 1:15:54Speaker 03

  The, the, the amount of things she was like, what else could he impale? It's caramel apples.

• 1:15:58Griffin Newman?

  Oh, sure.

• 1:15:59Speaker 03

  It's him paling caramel apples.

• 1:16:00Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:16:01Speaker 03

  That and knitting. But it's like, these are vampires who want to assimilate, who are trying to assimilate and just be as normal and as unobtrusive as they can be. And they still cannot do that. And that is really, that's the metaphor, right? You can never fully assimilate. It's just not possible.

• 1:16:18Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. Yeah. And also the, the sort of like, the never ending pursuit of hipness, of trying to stay relevant. It is like a fucking treadmill. That is impossible to keep up with.

• 1:16:31Speaker 03

  Well, right. So it's interesting because she seems, you know, it's this weird tension in the film where it's both about relevance and it's about homeland security is going to get you.

• 1:16:38Griffin Newman?

  Right. Like they're trying to stay forever young, but it's not enough to just biologically be forever young. They need to figure out how to be relevant young women, which is this whole fucking game. It's like rat race they have to do. And then also, yes, like the homeland security thing feels like.

• 1:16:56Speaker 03

  I mean, I was kind of pleasantly surprised by it. I was like, this is actually a very interesting route to go down.

• 1:17:01David Sims?

  A lot of things in this movie are interesting.

• 1:17:03Griffin Newman?

  I think basically, I think the script is like borderline great. Like, I think if I read this, I'd be like, holy shit, this thing is going to be a fucking knockout. And unlike I Can Never Be Your Woman, where you like step back and squint your eyes and you're like, I see the six good ideas here, but none of them are really executed well. I think in scripting, every idea in this movie is actually executed well.

• 1:17:28David Sims?

  Obviously there's not enough money for certain things, but there is a bit of a TV janky vibe to some of the transitions.

• 1:17:35Speaker 03

  Could have been a series like this, like in the, you know, the over explaining in the 21st 20 minutes of like, here are the rules of this vampire world. Cause every vampire world has its own rules.

• 1:17:44David Sims?

  Why is Clueless such an incredible piece of filmmaking? Which I would also argue is true for a lot of her earlier movies. And nothing after Clueless has the craft side so nailed down. Is it truly just money and time?

• 1:18:00Griffin Newman?

  At the time we're recording this, we have not yet done our loser app, which was her last studio film. I, I think as much as that movie is not as loved as Clueless, I think it has a little more of that. I've seen some of loser on TV and it certainly looks more like a real movie. I do think if, if you want me to unpack this for a moment.

• 1:18:20David Sims?

  He's kind of like, he's sort of like a loser.

• 1:18:22Griffin Newman?

  Shape of an L on his forehead.

• 1:18:23David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:24Griffin Newman?

  Right. Fingering his thumb.

• 1:18:27Griffin Newman?

  A lot of it boils down to like time and support. I really do think so beyond the fact that you're just like, she's got cheaper locations. She probably has like harder outs on cast, especially with a cast, a pretty large ensemble with a lot of big names. Right? A lot of these people are probably agreeing if it's like, if you can shoot Sigourney out in two days, you can get her. So now you have like a kind of slapdash location that you're putting her in and you're having to run through these.

• 1:18:56Speaker 03

  Grant's Tomb. Grant's Tomb. I mean, good bet. I have not been there.

• 1:19:00Griffin Newman?

  When I, I love watching whenever fucking DVDs have any sort of BTS footage, not of like, you know, the interviews, but comedy movies being directed. Uh, and the Clueless DVD has a fair amount of this. And I remember something about Mary DVD being like, as a comedy movie obsessed kid, like its own mini film school of just watching uncut footage of the director shaping the scene. And as much as you can like write it well and visualize it well and cast the right people, so much of comedy is like such a weird, precise tone thing. That it's why these movies need like studio funding, really, if they're going to be more ambitious than like three people talking in a house.

• 1:19:44Griffin Newman?

  If they're going to be more ambitious than like mumblecore shit where you're giving yourself that space and time because the budget is nothing. And you just need people to stay in an apartment.

• 1:19:52Speaker 03

  Especially for, you know, not just a movie that requires special effects, but I feel like I was also reading a couple of interviews with her about this movie and how she would have loved to have done more flashbacks or like more. Right, right. A lot of the, what appeals to her is the long life.

• 1:20:04Speaker 03

  Fleshed out. And like period stuff is really expensive. I love when they turn into a bat too. Oh, so you missed that.

• 1:20:11Speaker 03

  So you're just sort of like, why no bat? Why no bat? Yeah. That's, you know, that's a fair, that's a fair day. You just think that's a good bit?

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then they're kind of like talking as a Going bat mode.

• 1:20:21Speaker 03

  Oh, sure. You didn't like straw and the rat?

• 1:20:23Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 1:20:24Speaker 03

  Straw and rap. Okay.

• 1:20:25Speaker 02

  Very fun.

• 1:20:26Speaker 03

  I was like, that feels, that feels Ben coded.

• 1:20:27Griffin Newman?

  If I may close this loop for a moment, right? You watch her directing like clueless and this footage of her directing like the wedding scene at the end. And like the actors throwing out ideas and her finessing it over and over again, and things being able to play out in a group shot. Where you're seeing the real timing of five people like finding a new moment and riffing on it and finessing it, whatever. That is like the thing that like money gets you is the time and space to do that. Right? And I have been on so many shoots like this where they're like, we know we don't have that time. So this is going to have to be constructed in the edit. We can't spend five hours rehearsing this until it's perfect and then get 20 takes of the whole scene playing out in a master. They're like, we just have to start shooting.

• 1:21:11Griffin Newman?

  So then you get into this zone where your shots become tighter and less composed. Because you just need as many editing pieces as you can possibly get. And you need to start getting them fast, just getting fucking footage. And I think that leads to this feeling of it being like TV, which traditionally was always more constructed like that. You hire pros and you get funny line readings from them and you create the chemistry in the edit later. Versus the best comedy movies, you're feeling like it's like fucking old Hollywood musical shit. Where you're like, I cannot believe the relationship of these two people moving and speaking in the same frame at the same time. And like I, that is even more than the effects, because I actually think.

• 1:21:52Griffin Newman?

  It is impressive what she got visually, considering how low this budget was.

• 1:21:57Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, the moment when Van Helsing's first kill is pretty horrifying, actually.

• 1:22:00Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:22:01Speaker 03

  The burned alive vampire. It's pretty good.

• 1:22:03Griffin Newman?

  I just

• 1:22:03Speaker 02

  Tom Barry.

• 1:22:03Griffin Newman?

  She made certain balances of like, these effects are important. I want to shoot enough days in New York, even though a lot of it was Detroit.

• 1:22:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, a lot of it was Detroit, but it's also because it's a vampire movie, you gotta do it at night.

• 1:22:15Griffin Newman?

  It's a big cast. She clearly spent money on the wardrobe, all this sort of shit. It's like the big concession she's making is time. And that leads to this feeling kind of clumsy and in ways.

• 1:22:27David Sims?

  Now, the film, as we say, was made for about $10 million or so, because that's kind of what you could get from Lauren Vercel, the producer who made, had made that movie City Island, another kind of budgety, New York-y comedy.

• 1:22:40Griffin Newman?

  That was a mini breakthrough.

• 1:22:42David Sims?

  Exactly.

• 1:22:43Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. She also was Red Hour producing this. Stuart Cornfield, her old friend from AFI, penciller's company, at a moment where they were very powerful.

• 1:22:52David Sims?

  Sure.

• 1:22:52Griffin Newman?

  I'm almost surprised that they weren't able to get her even like a couple million more to help out, but it also feels like her old friend is doing her a solid.

• 1:23:01David Sims?

  Let's get Ben on the phone.

• 1:23:02Griffin Newman?

  Let's get Ben on the phone.

• 1:23:03David Sims?

  So he'll be in a good mood, the next one. One of the funniest things is, what was it? Was he at the Emmys or something? Or I forget. No, it was the Oscars. It was when he presented the Oscars, then he was like tweeting like, you know, like as he always does, like minute by minute through that. And they were like, aren't you at the Oscars? And he was like, go next.

• 1:23:23David Sims?

  Alicia Silverstone's in this film. Now, she's in Clueless, which is another film that Hayley Heckling made.

• 1:23:28Griffin Newman?

  Heckling. A lot about her performance in that episode, and we talked about the sort of ramp up of her as the Aerosmith girl. We did not talk larger career because the fall off of Alicia Silverstone is culturally one of the more interesting things we've lived through.

• 1:23:40David Sims?

  It's a bit of a boomer.

• 1:23:42Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:23:42David Sims?

  A boomer.

• 1:23:43Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:23:44David Sims?

  Obviously, she's in Clueless, and then her next real big role, she is in true crime in a small role or whatever, something.

• 1:23:53Griffin Newman?

  But that, I think, was shot before.

• 1:23:55David Sims?

  It's like, her next is the 97 double barrel of Batgirl as Batman in Batman and Robin, and excess baggage, which with Benicio del Toro being very normal.

• 1:24:05Griffin Newman?

  She like immediately after Clueless signs, I think it was a three picture, $6 million deal with Paramount, where they were like, we are in the Alicia Silverstone business. Or was it with, I think it was with Sony, actually.

• 1:24:18David Sims?

  Excess baggage, I can tell you is certainly a film from the great people of Columbia Pictures.

• 1:24:23Griffin Newman?

  So I think that was the first of what was supposed to be her three picture deal, but there was essentially a bidding war.

• 1:24:28David Sims?

  She had a company called First Kiss. That was the, uh, the label.

• 1:24:32Griffin Newman?

  Like Clueless is so huge and people were even like, is she gonna like get an Oscar nomination?

• 1:24:36David Sims?

  She deserved one.

• 1:24:37Speaker 03

  And she very specifically did not do the TV show because she was like, I'm gonna do other things. Yeah.

• 1:24:41Griffin Newman?

  She signs this deal. She's got three movies and they're like, we're giving you autonomy here. Like you are a producer on these films. Pick your material, cast them. Then Batgirl comes up, which at that moment probably seems like, well, no shit. They want me to be in a Batman movie. I should fucking do that. So that leaps, frogs to her next project. And then her first thing in the Columbia deal is Excess baggage where she's like, I want Benicio del Toro. I'm picking the director. They talk about that. The whole movie is like her selecting the things on the soundtrack. This is supposed to be the real moment of like Alicia Silverstone builds a movie for herself and her taste. And it is just kind of like completely ignored.

• 1:25:19David Sims?

  It's an interesting movie. It's not bad. Uh, in my opinion, it's weird and Del Toro is really, really weird in it.

• 1:25:26Griffin Newman?

  Like they're an odd.

• 1:25:27David Sims?

  Usual suspects era, Del Toro as like the sexy love interest.

• 1:25:31Speaker 03

  Who's actually weirder than we thought.

• 1:25:33David Sims?

  Exactly.

• 1:25:34Griffin Newman?

  But for like then Batman and Robin makes her look kind of silly. More than anything, people are like, this is embarrassing.

• 1:25:41Speaker 03

  I mean, Batgirl is not a very.

• 1:25:43Griffin Newman?

  It's not.

• 1:25:43Speaker 03

  Rich role.

• 1:25:44David Sims?

  But she's, I mean, she's, she's abominable in that movie. I love.

• 1:25:49Griffin Newman?

  Kind of like laughing at her. Like she looks uncomfortable.

• 1:25:51David Sims?

  And people are mean and sexist to her like 100%. She is also so fucking bad in that movie. It's kind of crazy because you're like, you're, you're clearly a talented performer.

• 1:26:01Griffin Newman?

  Character is horribly written and conceived.

• 1:26:04David Sims?

  Circus and no one's good in that movie. Now, now everyone says Uma and Arnold are good in it. And I can kind of go with them in that, but certainly George and Alicia and Rob, uh, Chris O'Donnell, but especially George Clooney and Alicia Silverstone. Just the line deliveries where they just kind of feel like they're like, did I get that right? And Schumacher is like, I don't know. Let's keep going. Like, you know, like on to the next crazy set, you know?

• 1:26:26Griffin Newman?

  I would also say like Chris O'Donnell. At least like wears the suit well like he understands how to be the action figure.

• 1:26:32David Sims?

  He has a sense of Robin more than the other two.

• 1:26:35Griffin Newman?

  I think it is like the, the reason Alicia Silverstone is dinged harder by Batman and Robin than anyone else. Is it's a little close to what we were talking about of like when Travolta fucks up. Where you're like, you look silly. How do you not have enough self-awareness? To sort of like protect yourself from this.

• 1:26:52David Sims?

  But it's also a horrible role.

• 1:26:54Griffin Newman?

  Absolutely. And but then it's just immediately followed up by like, okay, but here is her movie.

• 1:26:58David Sims?

  Sure.

• 1:26:59Griffin Newman?

  People go eh, and Columbia never cashes in the other two movies in her deal.

• 1:27:03David Sims?

  No, but I will, I will always go to the mat for Blast from the Past.

• 1:27:06Griffin Newman?

  A fun movie.

• 1:27:07David Sims?

  Our movie I really like. That's kind of also like salty, sweet and interesting with Brendan Fraser. I think that movie's fun.

• 1:27:13Griffin Newman?

  An incredible premise for a movie and a premise that only could have worked in the exact year they made the movie.

• 1:27:18David Sims?

  Pretty much. Um, I haven't seen it in, you know, 20 plus years.

• 1:27:22Griffin Newman?

  I've watched it recently. It is okay.

• 1:27:24David Sims?

  She's in the Kenneth Branagh loves laborers lost, which is basically just ignored.

• 1:27:30David Sims?

  Doesn't really make any money at all. And it's, that's it.

• 1:27:33Griffin Newman?

  She does The Graduate on Broadway.

• 1:27:35David Sims?

  Sure. But the boring role.

• 1:27:37Griffin Newman?

  Totally.

• 1:27:37David Sims?

  The, the, yeah, the girl.

• 1:27:39Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. And then NBC is like, we've got Alicia Silverstone. We're putting her on TV and it still felt like. Oh, she, that's someone who was a movie star. That's kind of a big deal.

• 1:27:48David Sims?

  I was pumped for mismatch. It wasn't just that it was her. It was Darren Stone created it.

• 1:27:52Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:27:52David Sims?

  No, dude, I was way pumped because I was like.

• 1:27:55Griffin Newman?

  It was one of the most hyped shows that.

• 1:27:57David Sims?

  Right. And it's like, it's Silverstone is that kind of star where in the early 2000s, you were like, well, they, they.

• 1:28:02Speaker 03

  And was she playing a matchmaker?

• 1:28:04Griffin Newman?

  Of course she was.

• 1:28:05Speaker 03

  So it's Emma again.

• 1:28:06Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:06David Sims?

  Uh, exactly.

• 1:28:07Griffin Newman?

  It felt like a layout.

• 1:28:08David Sims?

  Right. And that show just kind of stayed.

• 1:28:10Griffin Newman?

  It just didn't work.

• 1:28:11David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:11Griffin Newman?

  Right. And she now like she, she consistently.

• 1:28:14David Sims?

  It's over.

• 1:28:14Griffin Newman?

  Pops up in things in little parts.

• 1:28:16David Sims?

  But I mean, it's like, the idea of her leading a movie.

• 1:28:19Griffin Newman?

  Totally.

• 1:28:19David Sims?

  Is gone. Um, when they, she pops up in Beauty Shop, The Great Beauty Shop.

• 1:28:24Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, a strange performance.

• 1:28:26David Sims?

  Funny, strange thing.

• 1:28:27Griffin Newman?

  She's like Diane Keaton's daughter in the book club movies. She's one of their daughters.

• 1:28:32David Sims?

  And I remember she's in, uh, The Killing of a Sacred Deer.

• 1:28:35Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:28:36David Sims?

  The Lanthimos movie and in like a small role, she's, um, Barry Keoghan's mom in it. And when I interviewed Yorgos for that movie, I was like, Alicia Silverstone. He was like, yeah, I love her. Clueless. Like, I love Alicia. Why doesn't anyone use her? Like, it was great to work with her.

• 1:28:52Griffin Newman?

  But more often it's like.

• 1:28:53David Sims?

  It was almost like, like this Greek pervert had to like appear and be like, y'all like Clueless? Is Alicia Silverstone? Does anyone have a number for her?

• 1:29:00Griffin Newman?

  She got zero bump from that.

• 1:29:02David Sims?

  Because it's not a big role.

• 1:29:03Griffin Newman?

  Right. And like, I think more of shit where it's like, she was the replacement mom in Diary of a Wimpy Kid three.

• 1:29:11David Sims?

  You know what?

• 1:29:11Griffin Newman?

  After the original cast left.

• 1:29:13David Sims?

  God bless, uh, Yorgos. She's in his new movie.

• 1:29:16Griffin Newman?

  Begonia?

• 1:29:16David Sims?

  Begonia.

• 1:29:18Speaker 03

  Great. And she is also, I don't know that you taped your Clueless episode before the Clueless TV show was announced. That she is going in.

• 1:29:26David Sims?

  No, but that has been announced.

• 1:29:28Griffin Newman?

  But it's two days after we recorded our episode.

• 1:29:31David Sims?

  Dude, did you know that the cast of Begonia is Eddie, Emma Stone and Jesse Plemons, Alicia Silverstone and Stavi? Stavi?

• 1:29:39Griffin Newman?

  I did know that.

• 1:29:40David Sims?

  That's crazy.

• 1:29:41Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, because people are.

• 1:29:42David Sims?

  Yorgos is like, just get me.

• 1:29:43Speaker 03

  Another Greek pervert?

• 1:29:45David Sims?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:29:46Griffin Newman?

  Corner of the internet that is really hyped on the idea of Stavi being a supporting actor.

• 1:29:51David Sims?

  In a Yorgos movie? I could see magic there.

• 1:29:55Griffin Newman?

  Absolutely. He might just like nail it. Um, also. He's one of our best comedians. He kind of is. He's great. I think he's basically kind of undeniable.

• 1:30:03David Sims?

  Doughboys and being like, let's talk like nefarious fat guy shit, guys. And then being like, let's do it. You know, like, like what kind of bad behaviors can we get into?

• 1:30:13Griffin Newman?

  Did you guys hear him on WTF as well?

• 1:30:15David Sims?

  I know I should listen.

• 1:30:16Griffin Newman?

  He locked the gates and just basically talked about politics for like 40 straight minutes at the end of the episode and was so fucking smart.

• 1:30:22David Sims?

  Well, he is very smart about that stuff. I am a.

• 1:30:26David Sims?

  She's done a lot of theater, Alicia.

• 1:30:27Speaker 03

  She's really good in this. I think she's really good in this.

• 1:30:31David Sims?

  In my opinion, she's really doing a lot of the clueless stuff, the little, you know, the little mouth tug that she does. So cute, you know, like, and the kind of like sweet with a little salty.

• 1:30:41Speaker 03

  Curly hair, clueless.

• 1:30:43Speaker 02

  What do you think of the makeup?

• 1:30:44Speaker 03

  What do I think of the makeup?

• 1:30:46David Sims?

  The vampires in this movie have the eyeshadow.

• 1:30:48Griffin Newman?

  Now, that of course is an Amy Heckerling staple. Amy Heckerling always has the raccoon eyes.

• 1:30:52Speaker 03

  Well, I will. Yeah, that's true. Right. That's one of her things, but it does feel very like, okay, so these are the vampires. We're gonna like, put very intense eyeliner on them.

• 1:31:01David Sims?

  And sometimes.

• 1:31:02Speaker 03

  But I will say like, of that era, like, I was putting a lot of eyeliner on them. So I feel like it was also just like.

• 1:31:06David Sims?

  But I'm guessing you look better than Todd Barry. No offense to old Todd Barry.

• 1:31:09Speaker 03

  Well, thank you so much.

• 1:31:10Griffin Newman?

  But don't we, once again, think that we're in an exact midpoint of like, you're 10% over it being realistic, but 20% under it being funny exaggeration?

• 1:31:24Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:31:24Griffin Newman?

  Where it just sort of maybe looks a little sloppy?

• 1:31:27Speaker 03

  I mean, yeah, definitely. Like, it's smeared, it's not quite there, it's, but it's kind of, can I ask you guys, have you done, over your many, many years, how many other vampire movies have you done?

• 1:31:37Griffin Newman?

  Really good question, actually. Not that many.

• 1:31:41Speaker 03

  I mean, every episode's in a far-off.

• 1:31:43David Sims?

  Well, we did a Twilight franchise on Patreon.

• 1:31:45Griffin Newman?

  We did, and we have covered John Carpenter's vampires.

• 1:31:48David Sims?

  John Carpenter's vampire, okay, that counts.

• 1:31:50Griffin Newman?

  But for how sturdy a franchise this is, especially a franchise, a sturdy mythos.

• 1:31:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, it's just, they're so.

• 1:31:58David Sims?

  Well, what are the big vampire things we might have done? Let's see, we bought a zoo, was that vampire?

• 1:32:04Griffin Newman?

  We haven't done Neil Jordan, we haven't done Coppola, we haven't done Jarmusch.

• 1:32:08David Sims?

  No.

• 1:32:09Griffin Newman?

  We haven't done Herzog.

• 1:32:10David Sims?

  Her dog.

• 1:32:12Griffin Newman?

  Like, I'm thinking of.

• 1:32:13Speaker 03

  I'm like, are you, did you guys, like, was, you know, if you, as much as you liked monsters, or any, I don't know if you were monster boys, were you vampire boys?

• 1:32:21Griffin Newman?

  Big time monster boy.

• 1:32:22David Sims?

  But you're not as big a vampire boy.

• 1:32:23Griffin Newman?

  I was gonna say.

• 1:32:24David Sims?

  You like the, I'm a monster monster.

• 1:32:27Speaker 03

  Like a Frank, like a Frank, like a, or like a, the Thing, or like, you know, King Kong kind of deal?

• 1:32:31Griffin Newman?

  You know, I'd say, as a child, I, I kind of, my mind sparked the most at Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

• 1:32:36Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:32:36Griffin Newman?

  That was very big for me, but I also think, like, Scooby Doo as a gateway into the monster archetypes. Yeah, but also like Frankenstein's mummies zombies. And then I was watching.

• 1:32:47David Sims?

  What are we in the monster mash? What's going on here?

• 1:32:50Speaker 03

  Near dark.

• 1:32:51David Sims?

  Near dark, a great vampire movie. Another revisionist vampire film.

• 1:32:56Griffin Newman?

  Yes. Um, but I was really into the classical monster types, both the funny versions and the older, quote unquote scary ones, but the ones that were not modern horror films. Vampires just always interested me less. And it is funny that every time I hear a director I like, and I had this exact feeling when Sinners got announced.

• 1:33:16David Sims?

  Isn't Dark Shadows a vampire?

• 1:33:18Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, another good call.

• 1:33:19David Sims?

  In Burton.

• 1:33:20Griffin Newman?

  Uh, every time a director I like announces they're doing a vampire movie, I'm like, what is it with vampires? Most of the time I enjoy it and yet I'm never amped up the idea.

• 1:33:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:33:30Griffin Newman?

  And like I saw Sinners and I was like, fuck, there's still juice in this vampire thing. There's stuff you can do with it. And yet I'm sure the next time someone I like announces a vampire movie, I will go, why again? Why another one?

• 1:33:42David Sims?

  Why do you not like my movie?

• 1:33:44Griffin Newman?

  All the movies we listed, I basically like, you know, and I'm like, as long as there was some personal point of view. Like Only Lovers Left Alive is one of my favorite movies of that decade.

• 1:33:54David Sims?

  I mean, Only Lovers Left Alive is kind of the artier vamps. Cause it's also like, we've lived through so many years of society. Here we are just kind of chilling. What do we do with ourselves? America's getting weird.

• 1:34:07Griffin Newman?

  I think his metaphor in that movie is more kind of like hipsters not being able to reckon with the fact that they're still alive. Right? It's sort of like that movie's about like.

• 1:34:18David Sims?

  Junkies kind of being like, geez, we made it. And now we like live in Detroit and like world's going to shit and.

• 1:34:24Speaker 03

  There's like elements of that and like interview as vampire, like that kind of thing. We're like, I definitely remember when I first, you know.

• 1:34:30David Sims?

  I gotta watch that show. Everyone's telling me that show is so good.

• 1:34:34Speaker 03

  It's good. And I mean, the thing that.

• 1:34:35David Sims?

  And I hear it's a little horny.

• 1:34:37Speaker 03

  It's very David.

• 1:34:38David Sims?

  And Rice's interview with him. I know, I know.

• 1:34:41Speaker 03

  A little horny?

• 1:34:42David Sims?

  Pump your brakes. I hear it's a little horned up.

• 1:34:45Speaker 03

  Fucking.

• 1:34:46David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:34:47Speaker 03

  Sex wall to wall.

• 1:34:48David Sims?

  Great.

• 1:34:49Speaker 03

  Dicks on dicks, man.

• 1:34:50David Sims?

  Dicks on dicks. I need them on top of each other, like a little sandwich.

• 1:34:53Griffin Newman?

  No docking, just stacking.

• 1:34:55David Sims?

  No Big Mac, you know, moist maker.

• 1:34:57Griffin Newman?

  But that one. You want Jenga towers. Does that ever happen?

• 1:35:00David Sims?

  Like Jenga?

• 1:35:01Griffin Newman?

  Is that like a sex act where people go to a sex party and just go like, how many dicks can we stack on top of each other?

• 1:35:06David Sims?

  Jenga thing, but then you're gonna need like ladders and stepstools. It's a complicated system.

• 1:35:09Speaker 03

  Are you talking horizontally or vertically?

• 1:35:11David Sims?

  Who knows?

• 1:35:11Griffin Newman?

  I'm talking vertically.

• 1:35:13David Sims?

  Play around.

• 1:35:13Speaker 03

  Oh, I was talking, see, I, my brain went to horizontally. So we've got a lot of different.

• 1:35:17Griffin Newman?

  That I feel like is more like building a rope bridge, though, isn't it? Like, sort of slap by slap?

• 1:35:22Speaker 03

  Oh, boy.

• 1:35:23Griffin Newman?

  If you're going horizontally, I think Jenga tower has to be vertically. And it's the same game of like, how many guys can stack on top of each other?

• 1:35:29Speaker 03

  I will say the mechanics have rapidly run away.

• 1:35:32Griffin Newman?

  Is there? I feel fully in control.

• 1:35:34Speaker 03

  But I will say the interview.

• 1:35:35David Sims?

  Sam Raimi never made one? I'm just looking at all our vampires. The other one, Thirst, Park Chan. Oh, that's another good one!

• 1:35:43Speaker 03

  I love vampires. I've long loved vampires.

• 1:35:45David Sims?

  Who's your favorite?

• 1:35:46Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, I guess.

• 1:35:47David Sims?

  Dracula.

• 1:35:48Speaker 03

  No, no, I wasn't a Dracula girl. Um, I did not like Angel. I did like, I liked Spike better than Angel.

• 1:35:53David Sims?

  Angel solves crimes in L.A. Maybe chicken.

• 1:35:55Speaker 03

  He does solve, he does solve crimes. He, he, yeah, he took over a law firm. So we actually, you know, Vampire I was thinking of a lot during Vamps is Harmony. The blonde vampire from Buffy and Angel. She's a.

• 1:36:06David Sims?

  She's got a Vamps, you're right. She's very Vamps.

• 1:36:08Speaker 03

  Very Vamps. There's like, really, I actually rewatched an Angel episode where she like.

• 1:36:11David Sims?

  Mercedes McNabb.

• 1:36:12Speaker 03

  Mercedes McNabb, and she's working as Angel's like receptionist. And she has like a little montage in the morning where she's getting ready and brushing her fangs and like warming up the rap blood. And it's very Vamps.

• 1:36:21Griffin Newman?

  Oh, I have to swing in here for a moment. Hotel Transylvania trilogy.

• 1:36:24David Sims?

  Oh, yeah, there we go. Vampires in it?

• 1:36:26Griffin Newman?

  Trilogy, I'm sorry.

• 1:36:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:36:28David Sims?

  And that is a trilogy. And that is canon. And you can mark that down. And you can put it right in the book.

• 1:36:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, it's great. And Vampire is always like very much interested me. Definitely, you know, they were sexy in a way where it's like, well, they're not having sex. Look, they're having sex, though. It's penetrative. It's interesting.

• 1:36:40Griffin Newman?

  What was Buffy first?

• 1:36:41David Sims?

  Vampire, is it Buffy?

• 1:36:42Speaker 03

  It's gotta be Buffy. I think it's definitely Buffy.

• 1:36:45Griffin Newman?

  Was that your activation? Like, do you feel like you were naturally inclined towards vampires as a child? And Buffy was the best version of that?

• 1:36:51Speaker 03

  No, I mean, I think.

• 1:36:52Griffin Newman?

  Or was that when you first locked in?

• 1:36:53Speaker 03

  I, that's when I first looked into like, well, actually, I was gonna say that was when I first looked into like narrative TV being a thing that I was really fell for. But actually, that was, um, Hey Arnold, which got a shout out in this film in a slightly rude way, but I love a Hey Arnold shout out.

• 1:37:06David Sims?

  Just like Jake Folklund gets a fucking drive by in this movie.

• 1:37:10Griffin Newman?

  I, I, look, some of these.

• 1:37:11David Sims?

  He must be friends with someone, right?

• 1:37:12Speaker 03

  Really pointless.

• 1:37:13Griffin Newman?

  But all of these references feel like, right, oh, right, the first draft of the script is 2005.

• 1:37:17David Sims?

  Yes, like we're making fun of talking head shows.

• 1:37:20Speaker 03

  But there's also, you know, something that's always transgressive about vampires. Um, so one of my very best college friends, um, is a drag performer. In Brooklyn, I think I probably shouted on Showgirls because that was our favorite. The Wonderful Miss Malice and every January, if you're in Brooklyn, you should go to their vamp themed show every January for their birthday.

• 1:37:39David Sims?

  Not a vamps themed show.

• 1:37:40Speaker 03

  Not a vamps, a vampire themed show. Every year they do it. Every year they find new shit to do. There's, you know, this year there was definitely more Nosferatu stuff. She likes doing vampire lovers, like very classic 60s, like Ingrid Pitt, like vampires. Cause there's that whole genre. Um, there's, there was a really good Lost Boys this year and it was just the kind of thing where being in this, yeah, being in this room full of like, you know, very like, only like queer, trans people who are just like vampires are a thing. They live in the dark. They are the thing that people are afraid of. Like, so for that room, it was like, this is queer coded in a way that we all cottoned on to as kids. I, I guess I, you know, I guess I wa- I was closeted as a kid. I just don't even think of it that way, but I don't, I, for me, that's not what it was really about. It was more like this story is so interesting

• 1:38:25Speaker 03

  and intricate and I liked learning the rules of the Buffy vampire world. So I always am interested in how the rules of vampires shift between depictions.

• 1:38:35David Sims?

  And if someone finds a new sort of.

• 1:38:38Speaker 03

  A new thing to do, like, you know, the, the idea that a vampire, like all the vampires, like, you know, one vampire sire will die if the sire dies is a, you know, an older thing, but this, the vamp one, the vamp version is very interesting. I feel like you will age back to the age you were.

• 1:38:54David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:38:55Speaker 03

  And if you are too old, you will die. And then I think, I was like, that is a really interesting twist on something I have seen many times. And the other thing about, not to do my own David bullet points where I'm like, and here are all my thoughts. One thing I find very interesting about vamps and something I was really trying to think about, and I don't think I can think of another example, and I'm sure someone listening to this is, will find it. I cannot think of another vampire thing where the primary love story is between, is a platonic soulmates thing. Cause usually vampires are very tortured lovers over time. And it's like very, we are this, you know, like only lovers left alive. It's like, we are this couple. We have stayed together. The hunger is very that. Another great movie.

• 1:39:36David Sims?

  Yeah, love that movie.

• 1:39:36Speaker 03

  Interview with the Vampire, like all these very tortured lovers over decades.

• 1:39:40David Sims?

  Yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 1:39:41Speaker 03

  And this, or there's a mortal and a not mortal, like Twilight Buffy. But the platonic, like, we are roommates and we've been hanging out for 20 years, having a good time, is very different.

• 1:39:49David Sims?

  Yeah, and cute.

• 1:39:50Speaker 03

  And cute.

• 1:39:51David Sims?

  Here's my vamp's question.

• 1:39:52Speaker 03

  They're very cute.

• 1:39:53David Sims?

  Who makes a stem? How do the stems get made?

• 1:39:55Speaker 03

  Well, that's where I am, just like, if we had a TV show, we could get into that.

• 1:39:59Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 1:39:59Speaker 02

  We could get into that.

• 1:39:59Speaker 03

  We have the Sigourney flashback.

• 1:40:01David Sims?

  Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong, attempt to explain what distinguishes a stem.

• 1:40:06Griffin Newman?

  Let's do some of the table setting of the story, because we've been talking around different aspects of this.

• 1:40:09David Sims?

  Well, sure. I mean, I was gonna do more of the dossier, but that's fine.

• 1:40:12Griffin Newman?

  Well, we'll circle back to that.

• 1:40:13David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:13Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. So, uh, these two women, been living in a, like, St. Mark's Place apartment for 20 years.

• 1:40:20Speaker 03

  Goodie.

• 1:40:20David Sims?

  Played by Silverstone and-

• 1:40:21Speaker 03

  Native New Yorker.

• 1:40:22David Sims?

  Yes, and Stacy, played by Kristen Reiter.

• 1:40:25Griffin Newman?

  Who, uh, Goodie often is dressed in heckling outfits.

• 1:40:29David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:40:29Griffin Newman?

  We've talked about-

• 1:40:30David Sims?

  And Goodie's from the 1840s.

• 1:40:31Griffin Newman?

  Heckling's sort of like modified Charlie Chaplin couture that you see her doing behind the scenes a lot. Uh, Silverstone does like a lot of variations on that. Uh, they have been vampire roommate friends for 20 years. They live a very simpatico, uh, sort of, uh, tandem life, uh, where they go out every night and try to enjoy themselves and are, but as we were saying, are kind of starting to feel the wear of having to keep up with these people. Why is the technology changing? Why are the trends changing? It's too hard to like, keep this all going. I don't know if you folks caught this, but the first scene where they go to a bar, I think the introduction of Renfield, the band that's playing is Molly Israel's band.

• 1:41:11Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:41:12Griffin Newman?

  Daughter of Amy Heckerling.

• 1:41:13Speaker 02

  That's fun.

• 1:41:13Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:41:14Speaker 03

  That's cute. And I also love that Renfield is their gay best friend.

• 1:41:16Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:41:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:41:17Griffin Newman?

  The great Zachary.

• 1:41:18David Sims?

  The great Zachary.

• 1:41:18Griffin Newman?

  The great Zachary.

• 1:41:20Speaker 03

  He's very good.

• 1:41:20Griffin Newman?

  I said he was great. I know, but I'm building on that and I'm cosigning it.

• 1:41:23Speaker 03

  You're doubling down, he's great.

• 1:41:25Griffin Newman?

  The great, he's three times great.

• 1:41:26Speaker 03

  Did you get that then?

• 1:41:27Speaker 02

  Fucking look, yeah, he is great.

• 1:41:28David Sims?

  It's very on point.

• 1:41:29Speaker 03

  Oh, the look with the hair?

• 1:41:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:30Speaker 03

  Oh, it's tough.

• 1:41:31Speaker 02

  The swoopy hair, like the Bieber hair.

• 1:41:34Griffin Newman?

  Oh, yes, yes.

• 1:41:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:41:35Griffin Newman?

  For sure.

• 1:41:36Speaker 03

  Which I feel like was very like LA was swamped by Ed Hardy at that time.

• 1:41:40Griffin Newman?

  Sigourney Weaver is the one who turned them. They have an uneasy relationship with her.

• 1:41:44Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:41:44Griffin Newman?

  Her assistant guy is Todd Barry.

• 1:41:47David Sims?

  Yeah, very funny.

• 1:41:48Griffin Newman?

  You wish there was more of him.

• 1:41:50David Sims?

  Exactly. Todd Barry is a vampire is a good bit and there's not enough of it.

• 1:41:53Griffin Newman?

  Money in the bank. He's introduced with fangs and you're like, holy shit, give me this all day. But they have an uneasy relationship with her. They have found their sort of vampire chosen family in the support group, people like Vlad the Impaler.

• 1:42:05Speaker 03

  Who don't want to feed off animals who are like, we will stick straws in rats and be exterminators and.

• 1:42:09Griffin Newman?

  We found a more humane way to live.

• 1:42:11David Sims?

  A blood anonymous.

• 1:42:13Speaker 03

  Oh no, it's sanguine anonymous.

• 1:42:14David Sims?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, right.

• 1:42:15Griffin Newman?

  And they work as late night janitors so that they can have access to rats, to dead rats.

• 1:42:20Speaker 03

  Pretty, pretty solid.

• 1:42:21David Sims?

  There's plausibility everywhere.

• 1:42:23Griffin Newman?

  Like all of this is like, these are, this is vampire shit you like, where it's like any vampire movie getting into the, what are the structures of their life? What are the systems they have put in place to be able to like exist and sort of slip by?

• 1:42:37Speaker 03

  I mean, you know, and I feel like for especially comedic vampire thing, it's like very what we do in the shadows where it's like, and they are just living life in Staten Island and occasionally they'll go to the DMV and that's just what they're doing.

• 1:42:47Griffin Newman?

  The brass tacks of how you stay a vampire. They, Kristen Ritter meets Dan Stevens, a handsome young man.

• 1:42:57David Sims?

  Yep.

• 1:42:57Griffin Newman?

  This is the tail end of his popish era, like this.

• 1:43:00Speaker 03

  No, but this is like peak Downton.

• 1:43:01David Sims?

  Yeah, so Downton starts in 2010, like, yeah. And he's left it by 2012.

• 1:43:08Griffin Newman?

  I just think every movie after this, there was the sort of guest thing of like, fuck, that's Dan Stevens. He changed his look.

• 1:43:15David Sims?

  So The Guest is 2014, one of the hottest screen performances of my lifetime. And I like Dan Stevens and I think he's been good in other stuff, but The Guest was kind of one of those things where you're like, oh, a colossal movie star has arrived, right?

• 1:43:29Speaker 03

  But I feel like if more people had seen this film, they would have been like, oh, and he's also a freak. Like, why is he's not like, he's not really allowed to be as much of a freak in this one. That's not his role, but the fact that he's in it at all is kind of nuts.

• 1:43:38Griffin Newman?

  This is my point.

• 1:43:39David Sims?

  Great taste.

• 1:43:40Griffin Newman?

  Is, I do too, and I think he's really good in this.

• 1:43:43Speaker 03

  The fact that he chose to do it.

• 1:43:44Griffin Newman?

  This feels like him doing. A funny mocking of how he was perceived from Downton.

• 1:43:50Speaker 03

  Sure. Yeah.

• 1:43:51Griffin Newman?

  Whereas after this.

• 1:43:52Speaker 03

  Romantic lead with the blue eyes.

• 1:43:54Griffin Newman?

  Yes. And then after this, it's like, no, I'm zagging so fucking hard. I'm gonna like reintroduce myself and I'm gonna look different and I'm gonna have a jawline.

• 1:44:02Speaker 03

  So you're talking about Beauty and the Beast, yeah?

• 1:44:03Griffin Newman?

  And I'm gonna play maniacs. Yes, of course.

• 1:44:05Speaker 03

  Maniac.

• 1:44:06David Sims?

  He is the beast.

• 1:44:07Speaker 03

  He is the beast.

• 1:44:08David Sims?

  We cannot deny he's the beast.

• 1:44:09Griffin Newman?

  I think he basically always hits now, but it feels like he would not even let himself do something like this today.

• 1:44:16Speaker 03

  I don't know. I feel like.

• 1:44:17Griffin Newman?

  Conjuring too much how he was originally perceived.

• 1:44:20Speaker 03

  But I mean, at least it's like he's surrounded by bat shittery. Like his father is Wallace Shawn, the head of Homeland Security.

• 1:44:27Griffin Newman?

  A hundred percent why he wanted to do it.

• 1:44:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:44:30Griffin Newman?

  Like this movie's insane and I get to be funny.

• 1:44:32Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:44:32David Sims?

  Right, right.

• 1:44:34Griffin Newman?

  And he's very charming in this.

• 1:44:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. So he and Kristen Ritter's characters fall in love.

• 1:44:38Griffin Newman?

  Right. He is unfortunately.

• 1:44:39Speaker 03

  Star crossed. Classic.

• 1:44:41Griffin Newman?

  The son of Homeland Security, Van Helsing. And another thing I love throughout these heckling movies is they will set up some sort of dynamic and you're like, oh, fuck. So the whole movie is gonna be keeping the two of them apart until the very end. I like that basically 45 minutes in, he confronts her.

• 1:44:59David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:44:59Griffin Newman?

  She's caught.

• 1:45:00David Sims?

  Reveals herself and then they just start to deal with it.

• 1:45:03Griffin Newman?

  Right. And it's like always more interesting when the conflict isn't like external forced things keeping them apart. It's like, what are the struggles of how to be together?

• 1:45:13Speaker 03

  Well, it's funny when she's like, so what? Do you want like, you want a girlfriend you can go hiking with? You want to like try new restaurants? Like, I'm not gonna be that. And he's like, I don't, I don't need to do that. Like, I kind of love these. Like, I think actually we are compatible in this way. It's not just that I like you. I don't need to go hiking. It's a very funny thing to say.

• 1:45:28Griffin Newman?

  The core tension of this movie that kicks in is A, Weaver's getting increasingly out of control. She's starting.

• 1:45:34Speaker 03

  Weaver is a monster.

• 1:45:35Griffin Newman?

  She's a monster and she keeps fucking.

• 1:45:37Speaker 03

  And she's sloppy.

• 1:45:37Griffin Newman?

  She's sloppy. She keeps eating people. She's giving vampires a bad name. Page six is all over it.

• 1:45:44Griffin Newman?

  But also Kristen Ritter gets pregnant.

• 1:45:47Speaker 03

  Which is so interesting. Like, again, you know,

• 1:45:49David Sims?

  Something that's kind of not allowed in vampire logic and they don't address it for a while, but then they do address it in an interesting way.

• 1:45:54Speaker 03

  Well, I actually think, yeah, I think I didn't remember how the mechanics of it worked. Cause I was like, is this like a Twilight thing where it's just like, well, she's special. So that's what happened. I kind of like that Malcolm McDowell Vlad, as he's poking the, the apples is just like, yeah, she's pregnant and it won't survive because it can't. So give her a week.

• 1:46:10David Sims?

  Yeah, it'll right. Within a month, it's gone.

• 1:46:13Speaker 03

  That just like vampires can get pregnant, but it's not, we can't sustain life. So it's just not going to happen. So I was like, oh, that's actually just a very elegant way of dealing with it.

• 1:46:21Griffin Newman?

  Now, Alicia Silverstone has been lying to Kristen Ritter. She is the one who turned her.

• 1:46:27Speaker 03

  Stacy. Stacy. Perfect 90s name or 80s name.

• 1:46:30Griffin Newman?

  Goody told Stacy that she was basically the same age as her.

• 1:46:34Speaker 03

  But like clearly it's not.

• 1:46:36Griffin Newman?

  Has been alive since the 1800s?

• 1:46:37Speaker 03

  1840.

• 1:46:38David Sims?

  She's turned in the 1840s, but she, I don't think she turned.

• 1:46:43Speaker 03

  She did not turn Stacy. No.

• 1:46:44Griffin Newman?

  Oh, oh, sorry.

• 1:46:45Speaker 03

  So Cicero's turned both of them.

• 1:46:47Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:46:48Speaker 03

  But it's like, basically just to, what was it? There's like a very funny line where she's trying to get them to dispose of her bodies. And Stacy just goes like, but we're only good for like trying stuff on and like clerical work. Like that's, we are your assistants. Like that's kind of the vibe.

• 1:47:01Griffin Newman?

  A lot of good lines.

• 1:47:02Speaker 03

  But basically, I mean, you know, there's even a line like towards the very end where, you know, we'll get to it. I'll cry where Goody is like, I was going to walk into the sun before you got turned. Like I was, I was pretty much done, but now we've had a great 20 years. But it's like, she got a friend is what happened with that.

• 1:47:17Griffin Newman?

  It's part of like, what I like about Only Lovers Left Alive and a lot of the vampire stuff that I like the most is like the cursive immortality and getting to this point where you're just like, I kind of wish I could die. This is unnatural. I have like had to live through too much and lose too many people. And also have like, whatever hedonistic pleasures and joys I could like indulge in from a life without consequences.

• 1:47:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:47:43Griffin Newman?

  I run through them. What's left?

• 1:47:45Speaker 03

  And the interesting thing, I feel like one reason why I actually also don't love the scene that opened this podcast.

• 1:47:53Speaker 03

  Where she gets mad at the blogs, you know, we famously critics in the room. But where she gets frustrated about the blogs, not that I disagree with the sentiment at all. And actually, the more I thought about the more I was like, yeah, no, maybe I also will shuffle off this mortal coil if I don't have to like, check my phone ever again. Um, but I don't think, I think I am glad that that's not the only motivation for her being like, it's okay if I die because that's not enough.

• 1:48:18David Sims?

  No, no, no. Right. That's a bit of a huge bummer.

• 1:48:20Speaker 03

  Because also, like, at that point, she's also, we haven't even, God, I'm glad that you are, you know, down to talk for way too long about so many things. Um, because we haven't even talked about, um, Richard Lewis as the love of her life.

• 1:48:32David Sims?

  We'll get to Richard Lewis. We'll get to.

• 1:48:35Speaker 03

  We'll get to.

• 1:48:36Griffin Newman?

  But like my, my, my, uh, grandmother of some age culturing this episode, right? A lot of my life is now centered around me helping her with devices. And it will often be this wild oscillation between like, this is incredible. Thank God. This is amazing. I can't imagine having lived this long without the resource of being able to watch like any movie at any time in my bed on a thing the size of like a piece of paper, right?

• 1:49:05Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:49:05Griffin Newman?

  And the other half the time she will say things to me like, I was never supposed to live this long. I can't learn all these things.

• 1:49:11Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:49:11Griffin Newman?

  Like, what am I supposed to do? Why is this no longer a thing I can solve in a phone call or a letter? Why do I need to sign up for more stuff? Right? And I think it's more like.

• 1:49:20David Sims?

  A fair feeling.

• 1:49:20Griffin Newman?

  There was that feeling of like, Alicia Silverstone's character is secretly 100 plus years old, right?

• 1:49:27Speaker 03

  And she's much older than the other one. And what I love, it's one thing I like too, is that it's not like she's very nostalgic for the time when she was turned, which we find out, you know, she was brewing cholera.

• 1:49:38David Sims?

  And it was a horrible time to be a poor person in New York, which I guess she was.

• 1:49:42Speaker 03

  And that her go to dressing style is not that, it's actually the twenties when it seems like she was happiest, when like things changed, electricity happened, people were out having fun. And she was like, that's what she's nostalgic for. And also the, you know, movies, because, and I also, she's a cinephile in this.

• 1:49:56Griffin Newman?

  It's the very heckling part of it.

• 1:49:58Speaker 03

  Right. So it's not that she was always resistant to change. It's that she enjoyed the change she got and then it just kept happening.

• 1:50:05Griffin Newman?

  Well, so Kristen Ritter, inside her coffin, has photos of like, late eighties, early nineties, pinup boyfriends, right? She's got Michael J. Fox and shit inside her coffin. Right. Her taste has remained, you know, static to that. It's the moment she was turned, right? And it's basically like that feeling of this kind of point in a person's life in between your twenties and your thirties where you're like, I'm out of the control of childhood and there's a level of responsibilities have not really kicked in. And is my life mostly centered around like getting drunk and going out with friends and having dinner and having fun and all this sort of shit, which is what both

• 1:50:45Griffin Newman?

  of them kind of yearn for, right? More than a specific era of history, it's the point in time where they felt that way for the first time, which for Alicia Silverstone, because her lifespan is so much longer and she was born into a culture that never allowed people to have an era like that, that it makes sense that the twenties would have been the first time that was basically like the equivalent of her being 26 and also culture kind of exploding for the first time. And she's nostalgic for feeling that way for the first time in the same way that Kristen Ritter is about like 1992. And Alicia Silverstone has been lying about them being on the same timeline and pretending they're in the same place. Cause as you said, basically finding someone else you can relate to this hard

• 1:51:30Griffin Newman?

  in a platonic way gave her the motivation to be like, I guess it is still fun to be alive. I want to do this, but we have to be on the exact same page about all of this shit. And when Kristen Ritter gets pregnant and she realizes the baby is going to sort of like destroy itself, she realizes there's like a two birds with one stone solution, which is I need to kill Sigourney to sever the stem, which will solve her like time spree. It'll help her. It'll free her. It will free her. Kristen Ritter, you know.

• 1:51:59Speaker 03

  The revert back to the, to the age they would have been if they had kept aging.

• 1:52:02Griffin Newman?

  It will be the end of me. So Kristen Ritter is going to go from 20 to 40 and Alicia Silverstone.

• 1:52:06Speaker 03

  She turns 40 in this movie, which is also like very specific that she is turning 40 and that when she finds out she's pregnant. And that's also such a cute little scene. I feel like Kristen plays it so well too. And so does Alicia because she said it being like, oh, I talked to Vlad and you're just pregnant and it'll be fine. And she's so excited. And she's like, oh shit, you want the baby. I just didn't even consider that might be something you'd want. And she's like, well, I'm 40. When am I going to get another chance? Like, that's the reason.

• 1:52:31Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, it's a good line. And Alicia Silverstone like does the math and is like, I can solve this. But the price of it is, I will revert to my real age, which will be dead. It is basically a suicide mission. She has to sacrifice herself to this, unknowing to everyone else around her. She's not letting Kristen Ritter know because Kristen Ritter thinks that she's going to turn 40 as well. I always kind of like this dynamic of two characters thinking they're on the same page about something. And one person just sort of quietly, soically suffering in advance of like, I'm ready to do this. And I don't want them to know that I'm doing this for them because they will try to talk me out of it.

• 1:53:07Speaker 03

  And I feel like, you know, Stacy kind of does suspect it that, you know, they're not quite the same age because good references are not, you know, with it. She loves a drop waste too much. And even though, you know, you can only say Keira Knightley wore it for so long.

• 1:53:20David Sims?

  She always claims that she learned something from the History Channel. And there's a really great gag. Every time I watched the History Channel, it was just about Hitler.

• 1:53:27Speaker 03

  That is so true. But in this, it is still true. It was, that's, that's, I was so glad you wrote because I was like, that bit is not that great until that line.

• 1:53:36Griffin Newman?

  And, and the bit, the early set of the bit, which also feels very heckling is like the way her old timeliness kicks in. And she just wants to stop in random corners in New York City and explain.

• 1:53:45Speaker 03

  Remember when it was.

• 1:53:46David Sims?

  Right. There used to be this here. Yeah, right.

• 1:53:48Griffin Newman?

  Right. Which is like, I think how like a lifelong New Yorker like Amy Heckerling feels. It's certainly how you and I feel.

• 1:53:54David Sims?

  Absolutely.

• 1:53:55Griffin Newman?

  Talk all the fucking time.

• 1:53:57David Sims?

  Is to be like, ah, there used to be like a dentist's office there. And it's like, who fucking cares, David? Shut up.

• 1:54:02Griffin Newman?

  She's doing the 1920s version of that. And Christopher was like, how do you know this? And she goes like, History Channel. As if History Channel goes through every.

• 1:54:10David Sims?

  What do you want to say?

• 1:54:10Speaker 02

  It just doesn't seem like she was very savvy when it comes to real estate. Cause if you've been around that long.

• 1:54:16Speaker 03

  What are you in that apartment?

• 1:54:18Speaker 02

  Be off the friggin park or something. Come on.

• 1:54:21David Sims?

  Maybe she wants to be in the thick of it in St. Mark's Place or whatever.

• 1:54:25Speaker 02

  Or even, I just love the eternal life thing of like you deposit a penny.

• 1:54:30Speaker 03

  And then suddenly.

• 1:54:31Speaker 02

  And then like a hundred years later, you're like super rich.

• 1:54:34Speaker 03

  I feel like it's very like Interview with the Vampire is kind of like that where they're like, we have figured it out. Now we own shit.

• 1:54:40David Sims?

  But it's true. She has always been kind of like middle income. It seems like she's never amassed the great wealth.

• 1:54:46Speaker 02

  Working as like exterminators.

• 1:54:47David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:54:48Speaker 02

  If anything, she should have.

• 1:54:49Speaker 03

  You're making good money.

• 1:54:50Speaker 02

  She should have made it like some investments.

• 1:54:52Griffin Newman?

  I do think that is a purposeful statement though, Ben, because it's like the whole point is they are relishing being stuck in a stage before you need to start to make future decisions.

• 1:55:03Speaker 02

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 1:55:04Griffin Newman?

  In that way, right? Like it's that span of years where you're just like, at one point am I told I need to start figuring shit out? And they are stuck in like decades of, that's for later.

• 1:55:15Speaker 03

  Also, that's one thing that I was thinking about when, you know, she does her little blog rant and then she very shortly thereafter realizes that she's going to have to die if Stacy's going to like be happy and whatever. Is that, you know, for me, I was looking at being like, but you did just have like a very fulfilling moment where you got your ex boyfriend who's now, um, you know, I will say a hunky ACLU lawyer who is, you know, down and ready to help. And you got all these people.

• 1:55:40David Sims?

  You're saying Richard Lewis now is hunky.

• 1:55:42Speaker 03

  I think in.

• 1:55:43Griffin Newman?

  Well, in 2012, he is now.

• 1:55:44David Sims?

  I mean.

• 1:55:45Speaker 03

  He's hunkier in the present timeline than he is in that wig in the sixties.

• 1:55:48David Sims?

  Well, the wig is.

• 1:55:49Speaker 03

  I just like, and I also like.

• 1:55:50David Sims?

  It's not, it's not a major studio.

• 1:55:52Speaker 03

  I just love that that guy played by Richard Lewis is the object of Alicia Silverstone's like utter.

• 1:55:59Griffin Newman?

  Another thing that feels very, very heckling. If you look at the man of heckling's life, and we have not acknowledged, he also had a very long relationship with Brunson Pinchot in the nineties.

• 1:56:08Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:56:08Griffin Newman?

  Richard Lewis, you, it makes sense that you're like, Amy Heckerling, when she was 12, probably saw him do stand up on late night and was like, that is my greatest crush of all time.

• 1:56:18Speaker 03

  Richard. And he plays it pretty straight.

• 1:56:20David Sims?

  The thing, right, that I like about Richard Lewis, I like pretty much everything about Richard Lewis, but in this movie is that he's like. I'm playing as a kind of a tired, sad guy. Like I'm not going to.

• 1:56:29Speaker 03

  He's an old hippie.

• 1:56:30Griffin Newman?

  He's an ancient hippie.

• 1:56:31David Sims?

  All right. Like, God, Richard Lewis, you know, like, uh, no, he's, he's quite locked in, uh, being not that funny.

• 1:56:38Griffin Newman?

  And Richard Lewis also was incredibly good at just maintaining his look, right? Like you even watched the final season of Curb, where he is like so close to death, almost was not on the final season and dies like before it even premieres. And you're like, man, he for 70 years kept the hairstyle.

• 1:56:58Speaker 03

  You know, he likes, he likes.

• 1:56:59Griffin Newman?

  And the all black outfits and the attitude, like in this sort of vampiric way.

• 1:57:04Speaker 03

  All right.

• 1:57:05David Sims?

  I mean, he's like a nightclub comic forever, right? You know, he's, do you like Richard Lewis, Ben? You're making a little face.

• 1:57:11Speaker 03

  Yeah. I think the thing for me, when I remember that that's, this is the way the movie was going, is that I had a moment where I was like, but goodie, you just found another gear. Like this is some, you can help people. Like you change people's mind. You, you like, you connect people. And so I had a minute where I was like, oh, do you really have like, this is, it's not all just.

• 1:57:28David Sims?

  It comes a little bit out of nowhere when she starts talking about her kids and stuff.

• 1:57:32Speaker 03

  Well, that.

• 1:57:32David Sims?

  Not out of nowhere, out of nowhere. Cause there's the scene where she like looks at old pictures and stuff.

• 1:57:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:57:36David Sims?

  Layered it, but like.

• 1:57:37Speaker 03

  I just like that backstory is so good, I think.

• 1:57:41David Sims?

  But exactly. It's just resonant anyway.

• 1:57:43Speaker 03

  It's kind of weird that she's telling then Dr. Van Helsing about it.

• 1:57:46David Sims?

  He's a nice man.

• 1:57:47Speaker 03

  She's a winner over. Was he a nice man before that?

• 1:57:50David Sims?

  Well, he's interested in her in a way that most aren't, right? Cause he actually cares about vampires.

• 1:57:55Speaker 03

  Sure. And he is like, here's a new bit of lore I didn't know.

• 1:57:58Griffin Newman?

  Here's a great runner in this movie.

• 1:57:59David Sims?

  And he's learning to be sympathetic to them as.

• 1:58:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. She changes hearts in there.

• 1:58:02Griffin Newman?

  Other than with Sigourney Weaver, this movie constantly re-presents the idea that like any complicated dynamic can be worked out through a very good conversation. Right?

• 1:58:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:58:14Griffin Newman?

  And like in a way that doesn't feel like sloppy, like whatever, wave it off, screenwriting. It's like, can she appeal to Dr. Van Helsing as a person and get her to like, consider her as a person rather than as like an abstract enemy? In the same way that like Dan Stevens and Kristen Ritter can figure it out. And the Richard Lewis thing, when he's introduced, they're like exterminating at a hospital where his wife, Mary Lou Henner, is like in the latest stages of cancer. And Alicia Silverstone clocks him. This was like her greatest boyfriend ever, her like political radical college student boyfriend from the seventies, who she had to dump because she was starting to get to the point. I think she says it's seven years.

• 1:58:53David Sims?

  It's like after seven years, I have to acknowledge that I'm not aging and that what comes next.

• 1:58:58Speaker 03

  He wanted a family and she couldn't do that. Which also like, there's a lot of stuff about motherhood in here, too.

• 1:59:02Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 1:59:03David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:59:03Speaker 03

  In a way, that's our stuff doesn't always.

• 1:59:04David Sims?

  Doesn't make sense that she wouldn't know the deal with pregnancy. You'd think it would have come up at some point, but whatever, it doesn't matter.

• 1:59:10Griffin Newman?

  Richard Lewis sees her, is like, how is this possible? And she says like, oh, what are you talking about? And then very quickly creates the cover story of like-

• 1:59:19Speaker 03

  I feel like there must be a basic cover story for them. It's like-

• 1:59:22Griffin Newman?

  I must be the daughter.

• 1:59:23Speaker 03

  If someone recognizes me and the daughter, right?

• 1:59:24Griffin Newman?

  Right. And I'm like, okay, so the movie's gonna be 90 minutes of her lying and pretending that she's the daughter. And then once again, the conversation comes much earlier than you would expect.

• 1:59:34David Sims?

  They dispense with it pretty quickly.

• 1:59:36Griffin Newman?

  Where she's like, I'm just gonna fucking own up to you. He's smart enough to figure it out, much in the same way that Dan Stevens was.

• 1:59:42Speaker 03

  She stops a robbery and there's no way to-

• 1:59:44Griffin Newman?

  And she, and she says, I could like hypnotize you. I think you deserve better. They have this really interesting emotional conversation about like why he, she had to leave him. And so you deserve to meet someone else.

• 1:59:58Speaker 03

  And did you meet, did you meet someone amazing? And he said, yeah, I did.

• 2:00:01Griffin Newman?

  And you're in this zone where you're like, so they're spending so much time together, is the idea that they're setting up that now that he's lived a full life with his wife, and she is sadly going to pass away, that the door will be open for maybe her and him to be together, Alicia Silverstone and Richard Lewis.

• 2:00:19Speaker 03

  And it's just not really. I mean, I also appreciate that there's never actually a moment, because I had a minute where I was like, oh my God, is it gonna hit on her? Because even though she's the, he thinks she's the daughter, and that never happens.

• 2:00:27Griffin Newman?

  No, he's-

• 2:00:27Speaker 03

  He's just like, your mom was great.

• 2:00:29Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. And he's holding a candle for his wife who is still alive.

• 2:00:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:00:33Griffin Newman?

  Uh, and Alicia Silverstone, the similar way, like, I think it's not that she has a death wish, but she realizes like, I could do two great things for the two people I have cared the most about in my entire life. And also, as she says, I have lived so fucking much. Like, I've had my fill. Like, not that I resent still being alive, but I, like, I've been- Not greedy, but like, I've been very lucky with how much I've gotten to experience.

• 2:01:02Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, her explaining that the reason why she begged to be turned into a vampire, because the, you know, people who are begging to be turned to a vampire is such also like a very, you know, common trope in vampire stories, like people who want-

• 2:01:15David Sims?

  Broken, seeking it out.

• 2:01:16Speaker 03

  Like, you know, like Brenfield in this, like, he's like, awaken me. And they're like, that's not how it works. Or like, um, you know, people, um, Buffy, there's always like groupies or whatever, you know, people always want this or they think they want this. But her reason is also completely different from anyone else. It's not like, oh, I just want to like, not die. She's like, I have two kids who will be orphans if I die and I would rather not leave them alone.

• 2:01:40Griffin Newman?

  Right. And she talks about that her kids lived until like 80 and 99. I think she says her daughter set the record for the oldest living person at the time.

• 2:01:47Speaker 03

  I was just like, yeah, it was unprecedented at the time.

• 2:01:49Griffin Newman?

  And now she has gone on to live like another hundred years past that.

• 2:01:52Speaker 03

  But she was like, but the only thing I wanted to do with this was raise them and I did it.

• 2:01:59Griffin Newman?

  And I did that. So like, what is it now? Right?

• 2:02:01Speaker 03

  And I just, I had never, I really like, um, I don't love, you know, all the, some of the vampire stuff is cheesy in this in a way where I'm like, okay, you know, I don't, I don't need like a Bloodsuckers Anonymous situation, but I get it.

• 2:02:14Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:02:15Speaker 03

  But I do feel like some of the, like, she, Hecarion clearly did a ton of research. I mean, the vampire bat thing alone, or she's like, we have an enzyme in our spit. And I just spit into him. I was like, you have done some Wikipedia whole research and I respect it. But some of her twists on the vampire thing, I think are really interesting and smart in a way that ties back to the themes she's the most interested in, like aging, motherhood, relevance.

• 2:02:38Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, those are the big three in this movie. Right? And they all track really well onto vampire history and our cultural understanding of them. And, uh, yeah, I just like, it was one of those things where, as you said, like first 30 minutes, I'm like, okay, there's some funny jokes in this.

• 2:02:56David Sims?

  Yeah, I get the concept. Is this gonna be sustainable?

• 2:03:00Griffin Newman?

  Next 30 minutes, I'm like, fuck, I like care about these characters. And the last 30 minutes, I'm like, she has set up all the pieces on the game board really well and really effortlessly for now this all being like perfectly set up for a very effective finale.

• 2:03:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it's definitely a kind of movie where I feel like she's so, like, it's so close to getting all the tonal mismatches, right? Like, I feel like, you know, I- She she definitely, she clearly loves like a voiceover, an exposition dump, et cetera.

• 2:03:30Griffin Newman?

  This movie starts with quite a clumsy one, like it really like.

• 2:03:34Speaker 03

  And it starts it off on a note where you're like, oh, okay, here. Like, I'm sure I can tell that Ben turned this on this morning and was like, okay.

• 2:03:41Griffin Newman?

  Right, because it starts and you're just like, fuck, is this like a student film?

• 2:03:46Speaker 03

  It's just, it's a little like, and then, you know, then the 60s happened. I was like, oh, my God, we're just, we're just doing, we're just doing the decade.

• 2:03:52Griffin Newman?

  Photoshop like pictures and like dumb motion graphics.

• 2:03:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, right. But it's because she's like, I, she clearly has so many ideas and I gotta get only have so much time. This is the most efficient way to do it. Of course, then I went to see Sinners yesterday and I was like, well, that's how you do it.

• 2:04:06Griffin Newman?

  He.

• 2:04:06Speaker 03

  That opening thing like that was, it's crazy beautiful, but also he had.

• 2:04:09Griffin Newman?

  Same thing in Black Panther. He is kind of the king of doing that.

• 2:04:14David Sims?

  Like two minute animated in an interesting way intro that's like, got it, got it, let's go.

• 2:04:19Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, right. He's figured out how to make that about as elegant as you possibly can. And and successfully stick a bunch of info in your head that allows the rest of the movie to mostly be emotional.

• 2:04:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:04:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:32Speaker 03

  But yeah, I just, what was I gonna say? Oh, actually, I was, I was reading David Sims's interview with Ryan Coogler.

• 2:04:38David Sims?

  Great guy, really incredible guy to talk to.

• 2:04:42Speaker 02

  David's a great guy.

• 2:04:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, what a fun guy to talk to.

• 2:04:46Griffin Newman?

  We all love David, don't we?

• 2:04:48Speaker 03

  But I was, I was interested, I feel like something, um, I don't remember why I thought this maybe is good. No, I do. I saw it, I saw it. Um, one reason why I think he really encapsulated something that I always, I feel like is the thing I liked about vampires and does come up in every single adaptation. And he really summed it up quite well in your interview. Vampires still have so much of their humanity left, their knowledge, and also they can present as something that's not what they truly are.

• 2:05:13David Sims?

  But, I mean, Sinners is partly about vampires being great lovers of art, right? Like, and being drawn to like artistic sort of like, like framers in the fucking force. They're like. Yeah, like, oh, my God, someone is speaking to the human experience.

• 2:05:27Griffin Newman?

  They can steal it and repeat it in a way.

• 2:05:29David Sims?

  Sure. And like, and like, there's, it just rocks that that's sort of like, he's thinking about vampires. And like, he hits on that rather than just like, it's scary that they suck your blood, which is scary.

• 2:05:41Speaker 03

  Which is very scary.

• 2:05:42David Sims?

  I want to keep that blood.

• 2:05:43Speaker 03

  And a little sexy.

• 2:05:45David Sims?

  And a little sexy. I mean, my favorite thing about interviewing Ryan was when.

• 2:05:51Griffin Newman?

  First name basis.

• 2:05:52David Sims?

  Yeah, he's, he's my best friend, uh, was when I was like, you know, can I bring up, um, you know, From Dust Till Dawn? Obviously, the most obvious sort of like analog or two.

• 2:06:03Griffin Newman?

  He was like, can I bring up Puss in Boots, The Last Wish?

• 2:06:05David Sims?

  Well, that's exactly it.

• 2:06:06Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:06:07David Sims?

  Where he was like, dude, I obviously love that movie. I love Robert Rodriguez. And when I talked to Robert about From Dust Till Dawn, he was like, well, my biggest influence was Spike Lee. Like, I was just trying to copy Spike Lee. I didn't know about this and that or the other thing. I was a 25 year old or whatever age I was when I'm making these movies. And I love fucking Spike Lee. I love Do the Right Thing. Is that like a 24 hour movie? And then Kugler's like, and I love From Dust Till Dawn, but what I love is The Faculty. Because The Faculty is two genres getting mushed together in a way that shouldn't work and does. Like, that's my bigger inspiration.

• 2:06:40Griffin Newman?

  That Kugler is not just such a historian and is so smart about the lineage of these things and what he's in conversation with. But also that he's like a fucking omnivore, that his tastes are so varied. And you're like, this guy does just find.

• 2:06:53David Sims?

  That's the thing.

• 2:06:54Griffin Newman?

  Interesting aspects in everything.

• 2:06:55David Sims?

  And then, so he's talking to me about The Faculty and he's like, and then obviously Inside Llewyn Davis, Lover's Rock, the Steve McQueen thing. And then he's like, and then the biggest thing for me is this Twilight Zone episode called The Last Rights of Jeff Myrtle Bank. And I'm like, what's that? You know, like, and he's like, oh, it's about a small town, you know, that you said, and like, and then he's like, and Salem's Lot, the book, not the movie. I've never seen the movie except for the one shot. And I'm like, the shot of the kid floating in the window. He's like, yeah, the one shot everyone's seen from Salem's Lot, you know?

• 2:07:20Griffin Newman?

  I don't remember what interview it was, not to give credit to an interview that you didn't do. But someone else speaking to Ryan Coogler, he talked about how he was, I think, talking to Goransson as they were like plotting out the movie about just like, what sort of happened to the blues? Like, I'm making this movie about, spoilers for Sinners, the biggest movie in America, probably still has a big influence by the time this episode comes out. But this like lineage he's creating in the history of music and, you know, right, the slipstream of all this stuff, right?

• 2:07:53David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:07:53Griffin Newman?

  And he was just sort of like-

• 2:07:54David Sims?

  Everything was something to the-

• 2:07:55Griffin Newman?

  There's a big jump. Right. Yes.

• 2:07:57David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:07:58Griffin Newman?

  You say this in the interview very wisely.

• 2:07:59David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:08:00Griffin Newman?

  And, yes. And he was just like, I'm like trying to fill this gap between like the blues and hip hop and funk and like, what is this missing piece here? And Goransson was like, grunge.

• 2:08:12David Sims?

  Nice.

• 2:08:13Griffin Newman?

  Grunge was like the 90s big wave kind of capturing the spirit of the blues. And he was just like, I've heard the three Nirvana sounds that are on the radio all the time.

• 2:08:22David Sims?

  But I'm not like a grunge guy.

• 2:08:23Griffin Newman?

  And now he's like, I'm all fucking it on grunge now.

• 2:08:26David Sims?

  Good, a lot of good shit in there.

• 2:08:27Griffin Newman?

  Right. And it's like drug addicts like struggling with their sadness and being owned by corporations and like-

• 2:08:33Speaker 03

  And I mean, that mid movie sequence, you know, that Warner, just like, you know, just all the different music eras, it's so impressive on 10,000 different levels, but it's also like very of a vampire movie.

• 2:08:44Griffin Newman?

  But it's also-

• 2:08:44Speaker 03

  To see all these different eras.

• 2:08:45David Sims?

  When that happened, and I was completely, I saw the film very early, not to brag, because I was interviewing Ryan Coogler.

• 2:08:51Speaker 03

  Go brag. David Sims. Go brag.

• 2:08:53David Sims?

  And when that, so I was completely unprepared for that sequence. I really hadn't watched the trailer for Sinners. I just knew there was a big vampire-

• 2:08:59Speaker 03

  I didn't, I didn't even know that the sequence was in there. I saw it yesterday.

• 2:09:02David Sims?

  That's awesome that it caught you off guard or whatever. It's a sequence where you're like, damn, he rocked that. But then you're also like, damn, b-boys spinning around while blues music play, you know, in an old saloon could suck. Like, could not work.

• 2:09:15Griffin Newman?

  It's a humongous swing. And part of what I think is so thrilling about the movie and has really captured people is it's the kind of sequence where you watch it and when it starts, you're holding your breath and you're like, he is so close to fucking this up.

• 2:09:27David Sims?

  Or this is dangerous.

• 2:09:28Griffin Newman?

  And if he fucks this up, the movie does not recover from this.

• 2:09:30Speaker 03

  It's like, it's crazy that that's, like, that things escalate from there. Like, how is that not, like, I mean, it is a peak, but then the things escalate from there. But it is the kind of sequence that underlines why he picked vampires.

• 2:09:41David Sims?

  We should-

• 2:09:41Speaker 03

  You cannot do- That you can't do that sequence of the zombie movie like it doesn't make sense.

• 2:09:47David Sims?

  Let's open a saloon.

• 2:09:47Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:09:48David Sims?

  Zombie movies are so much stricter.

• 2:09:50Griffin Newman?

  You were gonna say we should get a saloon.

• 2:09:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're gonna open a saloon.

• 2:09:52Griffin Newman?

  Was that what you were gonna say?

• 2:09:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, that is what he's gonna say.

• 2:09:54David Sims?

  Um, no, cuz I was just talking about zombie movies with my friends, uh, who are asking me about them.

• 2:09:59Speaker 03

  Zombies are not my monsters.

• 2:10:00David Sims?

  And, uh, I was like, you know, with zombies, it's like, it takes six, 40 years for Danny Boyle to be like, what if they ran and people are like, hold on there, cowboys, zombies behave in one way. You know, it's like, there's not a lot of variation with zombie stuff.

• 2:10:13Griffin Newman?

  You know what? And this is interesting.

• 2:10:15David Sims?

  It reflects usually just one kind of thing, which is a, an apocalypse. Yeah.

• 2:10:18Griffin Newman?

  I am so much more innately drawn to zombies.

• 2:10:22Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 2:10:22Griffin Newman?

  Like, if you tell me that someone's making a zombie movie, I'm excited.

• 2:10:25Speaker 03

  It's because the world has to be different.

• 2:10:27Griffin Newman?

  I don't know.

• 2:10:28Speaker 03

  Because the whole world has to be different with zombies. And the whole thing about vampires is that they're trying to be, you know, they're trying to pass unnoticed.

• 2:10:35David Sims?

  And have their space.

• 2:10:37Speaker 03

  And have their space and have a good sexy time.

• 2:10:39Griffin Newman?

  I think I do.

• 2:10:39David Sims?

  My gooning tomb.

• 2:10:42Speaker 02

  If like zombies could just like live in the world and like just eat leftover dead people parts.

• 2:10:49David Sims?

  Toss them a, right, toss them a torso.

• 2:10:51Speaker 03

  I'm so sorry, Ben, cover your ears. CW show, um, I Zombie does try to do that.

• 2:10:55Griffin Newman?

  Yes. I feel like Warm Bodies does a sort of version of that as well, which is a movie I learned.

• 2:10:59Speaker 03

  There's only so much you can do with that. Like with vampires, it's very much like they have one face. It's a human face. They have another. It's the vampire face. And they have enough of their memories and they have all their previous knowledge. Like they don't suddenly factory reset in the same way that other monsters do. Like, I mean, and werewolves are kind of that where it's like once a month, but you, it's involuntary. But vampires give you so much room to work with in terms of a person's memory, what their relationship to the world is, how that changes.

• 2:11:28Griffin Newman?

  It's, yes, it's much richer for storytelling. There's more baked in that has interesting potential. I think I do like societal collapse and apocalypse stories and like things that get to test human behavior, like strip down to it's resistance.

• 2:11:41Speaker 03

  Zombies inevitably are that.

• 2:11:42Griffin Newman?

  I think I also like the iconography of rotting people. Like, I think if you show me a drawing of a zombie, I'm more engaged.

• 2:11:49Speaker 03

  The faces in this room.

• 2:11:50Griffin Newman?

  Like a cartoon than like a guy with fangs and blood dripping down his face.

• 2:11:53Speaker 03

  Rotting person.

• 2:11:54Griffin Newman?

  But yeah, it's.

• 2:11:54Speaker 03

  You love rot.

• 2:11:55Griffin Newman?

  I love rot, but yeah, like, and I think our buddy David Reece said this on the 20 years later episode, he was like, I can't think of a type of movie I love more with a lower percentage of movies I actually like, you know? And I think like, I will be pleasantly like entertained by some junky shitty zombie movie, but like unquestionably, there are more vampire movies that I think are capital G great than zombie movies. And yet I hear someone's making a vampire movie. I'm like, again, I hear someone's making a zombie movie and I'm like, yeah, let's go. Even if it's a two out of 10.

• 2:12:31Speaker 03

  That's interesting. I mean, I feel like, you know, cause zombie movies are about the humans. They're not about the zombies.

• 2:12:36Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:12:36Speaker 03

  Because the zombies don't have thoughts.

• 2:12:37Griffin Newman?

  That's what I like, that it sort of creates a template for an ensemble cast.

• 2:12:41David Sims?

  That is the reason for zombie movies being good, obviously.

• 2:12:43Speaker 03

  Vampire stories are still very human.

• 2:12:45David Sims?

  But usually the humans themselves are of secondary importance.

• 2:12:50Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 2:12:50David Sims?

  You know, they may be doing an interview with them.

• 2:12:53Speaker 03

  They could be interviewing them.

• 2:12:55Griffin Newman?

  Yes, right. That's also what you do, kind of like with Kooler.

• 2:12:58David Sims?

  Perhaps I should interview a mysterious man.

• 2:13:02Speaker 02

  What do they call humans in this movie?

• 2:13:04Speaker 03

  Day players.

• 2:13:05Speaker 02

  Day players.

• 2:13:06Griffin Newman?

  Pretty funny. That is a, that is a film production joke. Day players are what you call an actor or a crew member who's only doing the one day. Yes, it's, it's, it's clever. To your point, she realizes that she can get this rush from helping other people and it sort of gives her a reason to live. But I think it's a really good unsolvable dilemma, which is like, she's found this new path or step, and yet she realizes the single best version of that involves her dying.

• 2:13:38Speaker 03

  And she also, yeah, it doesn't seem to bother her. She just has to adjust and she's also like, my friend is about to have the opportunity I already had.

• 2:13:45Griffin Newman?

  I gotta give that to her.

• 2:13:46Speaker 03

  To raise a child she wants.

• 2:13:47Griffin Newman?

  Right. And so she then also very generously is like, I can bring in horny Justin Kirk and save Richard Lewis's life.

• 2:13:54Speaker 03

  He's pretty hot in this.

• 2:13:56Speaker 02

  Marry me.

• 2:13:56Speaker 03

  I just think, I like that we're just like, hmm, the energy on the side of the room. We're like, give us a second to have a moment.

• 2:14:04Griffin Newman?

  Him.

• 2:14:04Speaker 03

  With eyeliner Justin Clerk.

• 2:14:06Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:14:07Speaker 03

  Ukrainian, he emphasizes over and over again.

• 2:14:10Griffin Newman?

  That's a funny, that's a funny joke. I just think it's funny that that character is basically her being like, here's all the shit I'm not interested in with vampires.

• 2:14:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:18Griffin Newman?

  And let me put it into one character and have someone very charismatically play the most annoying guy in the world. The most stereotypically annoying vampir-y guy. A blah blah guy who wants to fuck women, right?

• 2:14:30Speaker 03

  It says juicy on her bot and I am going to take her at her word.

• 2:14:34Griffin Newman?

  And he's got the like Nosferatu teeth that don't look cool.

• 2:14:37Speaker 03

  My roommate was like, why does he have gopher teeth? And I was like, fuck, they are gopher teeth.

• 2:14:40Griffin Newman?

  They're, they're old days from your.

• 2:14:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, the little, the little gopher teeth, but that, um, I am sure you have talked, um, I did listen to your Fast Times episode with, um, Sinner Star Lila Kirk. Well done there.

• 2:14:51Griffin Newman?

  Humble brag.

• 2:14:52Speaker 03

  Um, but you.

• 2:14:53Griffin Newman?

  Humble brag for you.

• 2:14:54Speaker 03

  I'm sure you've talked about many a comedic sex scene at this point because Heckerling likes those. And there are a couple in this one, like there's the sort of, you know, um, Stacy and Ritter and Dan Stevens rolling off the bed and they're levitating kind of deal. But then like the absolutely.

• 2:15:10Griffin Newman?

  It's one of those.

• 2:15:11Speaker 03

  It's not great, but it's.

• 2:15:12Griffin Newman?

  They just pull it off well enough in a way that makes you wish it looked a little better.

• 2:15:17Speaker 03

  It does actually remind me of one of, um, the bits I like in this where she's just like levitating along the street and Goodie's like, oh my God, you can't do that. And she's like, it's New York. No one gives a shit. I will, every time that joke is made in anything.

• 2:15:27Griffin Newman?

  Someone levitating.

• 2:15:28Speaker 03

  That joke is, you know, could not be more bread and butter classic. Oh, it's New York. No one cares. It's true every time.

• 2:15:33Griffin Newman?

  It always funny. You are right. You are right.

• 2:15:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, but that, um, but the Justin Kirk scene where he's, where basically Goodie's like, before I die, I'm going to give, um, Richard Lewis the option of would his wife, like, would he, would he rather his wife become a vampire and live than die as she is going to? And he thinks about it for approximately two seconds and says, yes, please. And she sends Justin Kirk in there for.

• 2:15:57Griffin Newman?

  To ravish her essentially.

• 2:16:00Speaker 03

  It's, that scene is insane. I got so dizzy.

• 2:16:02David Sims?

  Drawn out. Yes.

• 2:16:03Speaker 03

  It's very, and then, you know, you have the comedic sort of like knocking on it being like, it doesn't take that long. You are milking it. Like, once he like, you know, does the slit across his stomach and is like, but I'm like, then Mary Lou Henner comes out looking unbelievably hot.

• 2:16:16Griffin Newman?

  I'm gonna quickly check my notes that I have from the Johnny Dangerously episode. I'm seeing I still have written here hummina, hummina.

• 2:16:23David Sims?

  Awooga.

• 2:16:24Speaker 03

  May we just reiterate? And also, did you clock that, um, the dress she's in is a redone hospital gown?

• 2:16:31Griffin Newman?

  I did. Yes.

• 2:16:32Speaker 03

  Very well done from Monamay on that one. Fits her like a fucking glove. And she brings, um, you know, brings him in and that's the last we see of him. But I'm like, that vampire?

• 2:16:42David Sims?

  Send off.

• 2:16:42Speaker 03

  I was like, but I was also like, she was like, you have to promise to like, have her only eat animals and stuff. And then she comes out looking like that. And I'm like, you just made a new Sigourney. Like, she is not gonna play nice, I just don't think.

• 2:16:53David Sims?

  Again, in the TV version of this, there's stuff to plumb there.

• 2:16:56Griffin Newman?

  That's a full season, R.

• 2:16:57Speaker 03

  That's not happening.

• 2:16:58Griffin Newman?

  I, uh, as much as I hope and pray, this is not the final film she ever makes. There is something in how much she brings back so much of her history of Heckerling Company players, down to like, um, Brian Backer, uh, who's a rat in Fast Times.

• 2:17:18David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:17:19Griffin Newman?

  Being a wasted dentist.

• 2:17:20David Sims?

  Yes. Eaten briefly. It was nice to see him.

• 2:17:22Griffin Newman?

  Taylor Negron back, Wallace Shawn back, Mary Lou Henner back, Alicia Silverstone, obviously.

• 2:17:28David Sims?

  I don't think Kirsten Johnson's in.

• 2:17:30Griffin Newman?

  She feels like she should have been.

• 2:17:32David Sims?

  Any of the others, yeah.

• 2:17:33Speaker 03

  It definitely feels like a part where she was like, I like you and you should be in it. But then she's kind of doing a not good British accent. I'm kind of like, you didn't.

• 2:17:39Griffin Newman?

  Cause they, it's clear that.

• 2:17:40Speaker 03

  This is a waste, but I'm glad to see you.

• 2:17:42Griffin Newman?

  Things of she obviously wants Wallace Shawn to be Van Helsing.

• 2:17:45Speaker 03

  And she wants someone maybe comically taller?

• 2:17:48Griffin Newman?

  Right. And then Dan Stevens wants to do it. And now you need to figure out like, who is the woman that Wallace Shawn could have made Dan Stevens with?

• 2:17:57Speaker 03

  It's not Kirsten Johnson. I was happy to see her.

• 2:17:59Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:59Speaker 03

  But it was a waste. But anyway.

• 2:18:01Griffin Newman?

  Like Joanna Lumley or something.

• 2:18:02Speaker 03

  But it is the kind of thing where I'm like, if Heckerling had kept making movies after that, like, she would have been in there. Hundred percent. Was she, maybe she was in like a Suburgatory? Cause I know Heckerling went on to do a bunch of Suburgatory.

• 2:18:13Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:18:13Speaker 03

  And that feels like something.

• 2:18:14Griffin Newman?

  Did Carrie Diaries, did.

• 2:18:16David Sims?

  Silverstone did the Suburgatory.

• 2:18:17Griffin Newman?

  A lot of Red Oaks.

• 2:18:19David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:20Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:20David Sims?

  Ah, yes, Red Oaks.

• 2:18:21Griffin Newman?

  Um, and I feel like there's one other big show she did a bunch of episodes on. Yeah.

• 2:18:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. So, but yeah, but it's definitely.

• 2:18:28David Sims?

  She directed the hot girls episode of The Office, but we're not talking.

• 2:18:32Speaker 03

  We're not talking about it, David.

• 2:18:34Griffin Newman?

  She did. She did a quibi show. Of course, you remember you commissioned that, David, called royalties that I've heard is good and is still watchable somewhere.

• 2:18:41David Sims?

  Oh, cool. I mean, that's awesome. Everything I commissioned is good.

• 2:18:44Griffin Newman?

  Six Red Oaks, one Suburgatory.

• 2:18:45David Sims?

  She did a rake.

• 2:18:46Griffin Newman?

  Three rake with the steak on his face.

• 2:18:48David Sims?

  Steak on his face.

• 2:18:50Speaker 03

  But yeah, I didn't. I hope it's not a curtain call, but it is notable also because again, she didn't have a budget and that they were all like, yeah, we'll come do it. Like we'll go to Detroit or wherever.

• 2:19:00Griffin Newman?

  Absolutely.

• 2:19:00Speaker 03

  And we'll do it.

• 2:19:01Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:19:01Speaker 03

  For clearly no money.

• 2:19:03David Sims?

  Um, yes, 37 days in Detroit, but you know, some New York location stuff, no question.

• 2:19:09Griffin Newman?

  And it is often a real Achilles heel of the Amy McElroy filmography that we keep butting up against. So she makes movies set in specific cities and then is told she cannot film in those places. And you have this weird kind of nonspecific doubling that is often then married to what is clearly two days of establishing shots that often don't really have the primary actors in them or only have them in one or two. This, there is like, she got her.

• 2:19:34Speaker 03

  She got her people.

• 2:19:35Griffin Newman?

  She did. She got like enough days of actual actors in front of real New York places to make it count, to mesh well.

• 2:19:42David Sims?

  Just to tell you some other things before we move, move on to the end of bands. Uh, first choice for sisters was Michelle Pfeiffer.

• 2:19:50Griffin Newman?

  Make up?

• 2:19:50David Sims?

  Liked the script.

• 2:19:52Griffin Newman?

  But she said, I could never be your vampire.

• 2:19:55David Sims?

  Was, uh, busy doing Dark Shadows.

• 2:19:58Griffin Newman?

  Well, well, well.

• 2:20:00David Sims?

  Uh, she saw Dan Stevens in a play with Judi Dench called Hay Fever. And, uh, then she just saw a lot of stuff in England because she was making, I could never be your woman. And like, that's where she first noticed him and then Downton Abbey, you know, helped him be a. And yes, indeed, they, they did shoot in Detroit. They did shoot on a type. But I'm just making sure I caught everything here and it was unserious, unceremoniously dumped. Essentially straight to DVD. I mean, oh, the VOD. But it did, according to JJ, it was released just at the AMC Burbank eight.

• 2:20:36David Sims?

  Ever been there?

• 2:20:37Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 2:20:38David Sims?

  You may have gone to a press screening or something, to be clear.

• 2:20:40Speaker 03

  But maybe I did go there.

• 2:20:41David Sims?

  Story checks out, though.

• 2:20:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:20:43David Sims?

  It does sound right.

• 2:20:43Speaker 03

  And we went to Cine Family a lot at that time. But that's not out of the question, for sure. I worked up there at the time. I worked in North Hollywood then, so.

• 2:20:53David Sims?

  And of course, as we noted, she has done a bunch of TV, but she's not, has said that she's not particularly thrilled making episodic TV.

• 2:21:05Speaker 03

  She's still like writing all the time? She was gonna make a Clueless musical?

• 2:21:08David Sims?

  She's claiming she's working on it.

• 2:21:09Griffin Newman?

  The Clueless musical is opening in the West End this summer.

• 2:21:11David Sims?

  And it's supposed to be god awful.

• 2:21:13Griffin Newman?

  She was doing it off Broadway with Dove Cameron in 2020 with the hope it would transfer and then everything shut down.

• 2:21:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:21:20Griffin Newman?

  It is now finally opening in the West End. And as we alluded to earlier, it was recently announced that she is executive producing a Clueless continuation show for Peacock with Alicia Silverstone back.

• 2:21:31Speaker 03

  But it's actually gonna be written by the gossip girl people, right?

• 2:21:35Griffin Newman?

  Right. It seems like it's a little bit more of a John Carpenter penny.

• 2:21:40Speaker 03

  And she'll be the, um.

• 2:21:41David Sims?

  I think so.

• 2:21:41Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:21:42Speaker 03

  The Margaret Collins of that show.

• 2:21:43Griffin Newman?

  But like, look, three years ago, they announced that Peacock was developing a Clueless reboot that was like fucking Clueless Riverdale where Cher is missing and Dion has to solve her murder and it was gonna be dark and gritty and like, this sounds like the much better universe of things.

• 2:21:59Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 2:21:59Griffin Newman?

  But it is like a little bit, um, it's a, it's a slightly damning statement that like Amy Heckerling is here regularly doing interviews and talking about how much she wishes she could get to make her stuff. And the two things she can do are just circling back to Clueless.

• 2:22:16David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:17Griffin Newman?

  Can I do this as a musical?

• 2:22:18David Sims?

  The most juice.

• 2:22:19Griffin Newman?

  Right. Can I, can I get a paycheck for doing this on TV?

• 2:22:22Speaker 03

  Well, I think at some point, she's just like, if you're gonna wanna redo this, I'd rather be a part of the residuals. Like, I'd rather get a piece of it.

• 2:22:28David Sims?

  Of course, let her have her money. I don't begrudge Alicia Silverstone doing the legacy sequel either. What's up?

• 2:22:35Speaker 03

  Well, no, I've seen, you know, I haven't seen every Heckerling, but. What other ones are New York based?

• 2:22:41David Sims?

  Uh, well, the look who's talking, but they are all, uh, it's not really shot in

• 2:22:47Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:22:47David Sims?

  New York.

• 2:22:47Griffin Newman?

  Loser is NYU, but shot in Toronto.

• 2:22:51Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:22:51Griffin Newman?

  Of course.

• 2:22:52David Sims?

  Johnny Dangerously is New York, uh, you know, gangster-y.

• 2:22:55Griffin Newman?

  But it's all, it's so soundstagey that it doesn't have the same problem.

• 2:22:59David Sims?

  Basically, Clueless and Fast Times, her most famous works are the, the LA ones. I Could Never Be Your Woman is also, of course, set in just, just a

• 2:23:08Speaker 03

  Long time in Los Angeles.

• 2:23:11David Sims?

  Uh, and then the European vacation film, This Might Stun You, is actually set all over Europe.

• 2:23:17Griffin Newman?

  And what is crazy is

• 2:23:19Speaker 03

  Does that include Britain or?

• 2:23:20David Sims?

  Yeah, there's a whole British section and then Germany and France.

• 2:23:24Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:25David Sims?

  Yeah, it was, it was a good 30 years.

• 2:23:27Speaker 03

  We had not Brexit.

• 2:23:29Griffin Newman?

  But that film actually like did, uh, filming in five different countries.

• 2:23:36David Sims?

  It was a nightmare.

• 2:23:36Griffin Newman?

  Like a nightmare, but it is, you watch it and you're like, holy shit, they flew everyone everywhere.

• 2:23:42Speaker 03

  But it's really interesting that this one, you know, if it's her last, which I hope it's not, but it's so much like, she's like, I want to tell the entire story, like not the entire story of New York, obviously 1840 wasn't the beginning of New York, but she's like, I'm going to tell you about how this city has evolved. And Goody is, it's, because I feel like so many other vampires will like travel and they'll go other places and Goody's like, I've got everything I need. It's very native New Yorker. Where you're just like, why would I go and I got it.

• 2:24:07Griffin Newman?

  I saw The Shrouds recently, which I loved, and I think it's already being kind of slept on and misunderstood. And

• 2:24:15David Sims?

  I wasn't a huge fan of it. I'm sorry. I like the themes a lot. I think, I just did not find it to be the most involving movie. But I, I like the theme.

• 2:24:26Griffin Newman?

  I liked Tremendous Mountain. I found it very funny.

• 2:24:27David Sims?

  Sure.

• 2:24:28Griffin Newman?

  But

• 2:24:28David Sims?

  It's kind of funny.

• 2:24:30Griffin Newman?

  It, it is. To me, a perfect example-

• 2:24:33David Sims?

  I wanted to defend it because I love him and I-

• 2:24:36Griffin Newman?

  I love-

• 2:24:36David Sims?

  I think it's a very interesting movie.

• 2:24:37Griffin Newman?

  He is so important to me. Uh, I don't think it's anywhere near his top tier of films. And yet, I walked out of it and said, "That's kind of a perfect film if we're unlucky enough that he never gets to make another one."

• 2:24:49David Sims?

  Absolutely.

• 2:24:50Griffin Newman?

  And it feels in a way similar to Vamps-

• 2:24:52David Sims?

  Well, I think he's done.

• 2:24:52Griffin Newman?

  And some other filmmakers where they're just sort of like, "It has been getting harder and harder for me to get stuff made, and I have to make every movie with the awareness that this might be my final statement." And Vamps does feel like she's just putting so much in it, not pessimistically, but just being like, "Who knows?" Right? It's kind of like her final statement on New York, on youth culture, on like, relationships, on motherhood, like, all these things.

• 2:25:19David Sims?

  I like Crimes of Future a lot more as a movie, but I think The Shrouds is a very interesting kuda-

• 2:25:23Griffin Newman?

  I agree with you.

• 2:25:24David Sims?

  -to his career.

• 2:25:25Griffin Newman?

  Which I feel-

• 2:25:26David Sims?

  Um, you know, it's interesting.

• 2:25:27Griffin Newman?

  Vamps, I'm putting in the same category, where it's like, it's not her best movie, but if it sadly has to be her coda in feature films, it is a pretty good one.

• 2:25:36David Sims?

  I think when Cronenberg movies are mega chatty, it can be a problem, I guess is my take.

• 2:25:40Griffin Newman?

  I would say that my read is, in that film, it is a form of knowing self-parody. I think he is mocking his own critics' analysis of his movies being cold and analytical about very emotional things.

• 2:25:55David Sims?

  Sure.

• 2:25:56Griffin Newman?

  That was my read. I will say, I also saw it at the Nighthawk in a row with five people who were committed to watching it as if they were doing a Rift Tracks commentary-

• 2:26:04David Sims?

  Oh, how fun.

• 2:26:05Griffin Newman?

  -and thought they were mocking it, and I almost went full Joker mode on them.

• 2:26:08David Sims?

  I would go a little Joker mode.

• 2:26:09Griffin Newman?

  I did turn to this one moment at one point and go,

• 2:26:14Griffin Newman?

  with like, the intensity of a thousand burning suns, and she was freaked out.

• 2:26:17David Sims?

  You may be right, right, because you're right. You started high.

• 2:26:21Griffin Newman?

  It was too quick.

• 2:26:21David Sims?

  Yes, right, right.

• 2:26:23Griffin Newman?

  But Vince Catel took his shirt off in a scene of mourning, and she went, "Yes, yes!", and I was like, "I can tolerate this so long!"

• 2:26:30David Sims?

  I mean, that is objectively hilarious that someone said "yes" during The Shrouds.

• 2:26:37Griffin Newman?

  But it was coming off of 45 minutes of a fucking meditation on death-

• 2:26:41David Sims?

  No.

• 2:26:41Griffin Newman?

  -where they kept being like, "Um, what?", like, just doing the sort of performative laughing at like, "Who talks like this?"

• 2:26:50Speaker 03

  She just saw Vincent Cassel and she flashed back viscerally to him in Ocean's Twelve with his sweatpants very low.

• 2:26:55Griffin Newman?

  I was all for-

• 2:26:56Speaker 03

  Which is the only proper response to that.

• 2:26:58Griffin Newman?

  I was all for her thirsting after Vincent Cassel. If I felt like it wasn't done mockingly.

• 2:27:02Speaker 03

  Been there.

• 2:27:03Griffin Newman?

  It felt like she was mocking the idea of thirsting after him. And I'm like-

• 2:27:07Speaker 03

  Well, that's unacceptable.

• 2:27:07Griffin Newman?

  He is hot and this movie knows it's funny and stop acting like you're smarter and that. Anyway, the film Vamps, directed by Amy Heckerling. Can we talk about the ending?

• 2:27:16David Sims?

  Sure, the ending's lovely. I mean, it's exactly what you want it to be, I guess is the best way for me to put it.

• 2:27:21Griffin Newman?

  It's a very good gag that is also-

• 2:27:23David Sims?

  Going to Times Square, America's greatest place.

• 2:27:25Griffin Newman?

  Not executed-

• 2:27:26David Sims?

  The center of the world, is that what she said?

• 2:27:27Speaker 03

  She said the center of things.

• 2:27:28David Sims?

  It's all happening.

• 2:27:29Speaker 03

  Did you read them?

• 2:27:30David Sims?

  I, look, if you want to see 2010 Broadway musical billboards, watch the last scene of Vamps. It's kind of awesome, like-

• 2:27:36Griffin Newman?

  Spider-Man Turn Off The Dark, she captured it.

• 2:27:38David Sims?

  I forgot about the women on the verge of a nervous breakdown musical.

• 2:27:41Griffin Newman?

  The Sinatra jukebox musical, there's so much interesting stuff.

• 2:27:45David Sims?

  Addams Family.

• 2:27:46Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:47Speaker 03

  Yep, but it's just like-

• 2:27:49Griffin Newman?

  She, they kill Sigourney Weaver.

• 2:27:51Speaker 03

  They kill Sigourney Weaver in this very, like, it's almost, it's like The Mummy, Return of the Dragon Emperor level graphics or a deal.

• 2:27:57Griffin Newman?

  Decapitate her dancing, see you guys skeleton.

• 2:27:59Speaker 03

  Okay, when she comes out of the tomb with the saber and she's a skeleton and she's singing, "My eyes have seen the coming of the glory of the Lord." I fully, like, that was the funniest, it was so funny.

• 2:28:09Griffin Newman?

  Here's what I'll say about that as well. Still would. Let me at her. Sigourney with a fucking skeleton, realty body, I take my chances.

• 2:28:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, but they don't, they kill her.

• 2:28:22Griffin Newman?

  They kill her and you have this very good gag that once again, you're just like, fuck. If she had a little more resources, this would be impeccable. Where Kristen Ritter immediately in a series of three shots, her butt gets a little flatter.

• 2:28:36Speaker 03

  A little flat.

• 2:28:36Griffin Newman?

  The lighting changes on her.

• 2:28:38Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:28:38Griffin Newman?

  And there's, oh, and her arms start sagging, right?

• 2:28:41David Sims?

  It's like two wrinkles.

• 2:28:42Speaker 03

  But it's like pretty well done, because it's like, it's, she doesn't, it's just enough.

• 2:28:45Griffin Newman?

  It's just enough.

• 2:28:46Speaker 03

  And then she's like, I was, I stayed out of the sun and I didn't drink or smoke, so good for me.

• 2:28:51Griffin Newman?

  Right, and then-

• 2:28:51David Sims?

  That worked for me.

• 2:28:52Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:53David Sims?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:28:53Griffin Newman?

  It's a good joke. Uh, looks over to Alicia Silverstone, who is in not the world's best old age makeup.

• 2:28:58Speaker 03

  I wouldn't say so, no.

• 2:28:59Griffin Newman?

  Immediately clocks, "You've been lying to me about your age." They bring up the History Channel thing and like, "Are you gonna stop aging now?"

• 2:29:06Speaker 03

  But no.

• 2:29:07Griffin Newman?

  And Alicia Silverstone gives the knowing look of just like, "This is just gonna advance." I, you know, "Clock is ticking until I decay, but I don't want to die here. I want to go to the center where everything happens." And then they go to Times Square. And she like looks around at the world's greatest boards and flashes back to like the history of New York City.

• 2:29:26Speaker 03

  She gets a pretzel, which I'm sad for her for. I wanted her to get a hot dog.

• 2:29:29Griffin Newman?

  But she just.

• 2:29:30Speaker 03

  The pretzels are not that good.

• 2:29:32Griffin Newman?

  She doesn't know, though. That's the thing.

• 2:29:33Speaker 03

  She didn't even get mustard.

• 2:29:34Griffin Newman?

  What doesn't know can hurt.

• 2:29:35Speaker 03

  It's gonna dry.

• 2:29:36Griffin Newman?

  Um, it's genuinely very.

• 2:29:38Speaker 03

  Give her a cool DC to wash it down with.

• 2:29:39Griffin Newman?

  Affecting.

• 2:29:40Speaker 03

  You know, but it's, but it is a really, you know, for as bad as the wig is, or as fine as the dust effect is, the music, I don't remember what the song is, but the song and her flashing back to like, you know, all her stuff and her kids and everything, it fucking got me.

• 2:29:55Griffin Newman?

  And also culture, like not just her own personal memories, but like everything she's lived through.

• 2:29:59Speaker 03

  It's just, yeah, I don't know. I felt very, I felt very touched. And then, you know, obviously, and one of the reasons Stacy's so sad is because she's like, now you'll never meet my baby and will never, you won't raise this baby with me. And they hold hands and it's just a very lovely friendship moment. And I will say an impressively straight vampire movie that I, and I don't hold it against it.

• 2:30:18Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:18Speaker 03

  Which is saying something.

• 2:30:20Griffin Newman?

  They don't really edge towards that.

• 2:30:21Speaker 03

  No, there's never that. No.

• 2:30:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:22Speaker 03

  But I wouldn't expect Heckerling to do that, honestly.

• 2:30:25Griffin Newman?

  No, it really hurts her.

• 2:30:26Speaker 03

  But it's a very, it is, you know, and not only do they never have a little moment, but she gets pregnant. It's like very straight, but it is lovely.

• 2:30:33Griffin Newman?

  Well, fucking Dan Stevens will make anyone pregnant.

• 2:30:38Griffin Newman?

  You promise? Um, it's, it's kind of a knockout ending.

• 2:30:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's one of those things where I'm like.

• 2:30:44Griffin Newman?

  It was a little moved.

• 2:30:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was, it was, and you know, Times Square is Times Square, but I think there's a New York Times profile of Heckerling that I'm sure you've referenced where it's like, you know, she's making The Clueless Musical, but she, Times Square is like one of her first memories, like coming out of the subway in a stroller. She's like, and there is Times Square and it looked like that. And so for her to have this relationship with Times Square where she's like, this was where every, like she described it as like the center of things. Like this is like she's, she was like, everything is here. And so for that, there's like such, you know, there's always an analog. Like, obviously, many of these films are personal, but this is such a personal moment. And it's bittersweet because Goody seems to have accepted it and she's happy about it. I am not convinced Heckling is being like, and now I'm irrelevant and I'm going to die.

• 2:31:29Griffin Newman?

  I have always had a real similar affection and obsession with Times Square as a lifelong New Yorker, from how like overstimulating and exciting it was to me as a child to even now, when every other native New Yorker I know is just like, why would you ever go there by choice? I have always found it weirdly relaxing and serene to just submit myself to the chaos of Times Square and stand in the middle or just wander around, whatever.

• 2:31:53Speaker 03

  It's where I went the night after prom, like with my friends from Jersey. We went to Times Square. And I was like, because this is, this is the cool, like, this is the busiest, most not New Jersey thing we could do right now is go to Times Square and get.

• 2:32:05Griffin Newman?

  I went to Seaside Heights.

• 2:32:06Speaker 03

  Oh, I mean, that's good, too. I mean.

• 2:32:08Griffin Newman?

  That's the most Jersey thing.

• 2:32:09Speaker 03

  That is the most Jersey thing you could do. Yes, I went the other way.

• 2:32:13Griffin Newman?

  It is so insufferable and annoying and impossible to navigate. And yet, when I am there, I do feel like the way this character feels. Where I'm like, this is the center of the world.

• 2:32:22Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:32:23Griffin Newman?

  Interesting. I am almost always like, get me out of here. I'm presenting myself as the weirdo and the freak. And I, in, in watching these movies and in reading all the Heckling interviews and in living with her for the last couple of months, we have in our head, I'm just like, I'm really just kind of on her wavelength. And I found myself defending a lot of her movies that people don't like as much, that just kind of worked for me. And I just feel like I have a very similar outlook on a lot of things to her. And, yeah, it's, it's like, in watching this movie, it does feel like the ending is her sort of being like, has my time passed?

• 2:33:04Griffin Newman?

  Which, globally than just her and her career, also feels like, this is kind of acknowledging the end of a type of movie that doesn't get made anymore. And the last two films she made were basically made past. Like on borrowed time, right? Like studios are no longer making these. So now you have to like scrape and scavenge and pull together the wonkiest version of this thing.

• 2:33:25Speaker 03

  Thing too is that she did have to scrape and scavenge for this, but she did get to do Times Square.

• 2:33:29Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:29Speaker 03

  For one night, she got Times Square.

• 2:33:30Griffin Newman?

  She like had her three main actors in the middle of Times Square. There's like triumphs in this movie that really got to me. I still think it is like on whole, a good movie that I enjoy quite a bit. It is frustrating, as we said, bittersweet that it is not like a triumph, which it should be.

• 2:33:46Speaker 03

  But I feel like it dealt with a lot of the, I'm really glad that I watched I Could Never Be Your Woman before this because I feel like that one was so close to her experience that I feel like it was, I mean, you've talked about it, I won't do it, but I do feel like this movie, I felt like dealt with a lot of the same themes better because she could take a slight step back. It's actually like watching it. I was like, I'm actually surprised it took you this long to get to vampires. Like they are so up the street of everything you want to talk about that. I feel like this one, she did get to something there.

• 2:34:14Griffin Newman?

  Uh, can I read an extended quote that I found from her? The other, David?

• 2:34:19Speaker 03

  David.

• 2:34:19Griffin Newman?

  We're saying goodbye to Amy Heckerling. We're saying goodbye to Amy Heckerling.

• 2:34:23David Sims?

  Enough.

• 2:34:24Griffin Newman?

  We're saying goodbye to Amy Heckerling.

• 2:34:25Speaker 03

  Sour Patch Kid?

• 2:34:27David Sims?

  Yes. I need like 20 of them. Come on. What's the quote? Come on.

• 2:34:31Speaker 03

  He's getting Sour Patch Kids.

• 2:34:32Griffin Newman?

  Our friend Hillary Weston, friend of the podcast, Criterion, did an interview with Amy Heckerling, I think around the time that the Fast Times release was coming out. Uh, and she was talking about where Clueless came from, these quotes that we've sort of talked about before, the projection of the optimist, right? And she's talking about how much she admires the idea of the optimists and running the world and like putting the shine on them. And then she just says, also, a world full of optimists wouldn't be a good idea because what if we all went, ha, global warming, it will be fine. We need pessimists. You can't just say, oh, here's this thing I made. It's great. Although a lot of people that are creative have that. They go, I'm doing this and I'm doing that. And they think everything they do is great. And then there are people that say, you know, this has been done before and here's all the ways it could stink. And then you can't write one word

• 2:35:14Griffin Newman?

  without thinking about how bad it could be based on how people could react, how other ways have fallen flat. And then she basically immediately dunks on, uh, Life is Beautiful and the Day the Clown Cried. Um, but I just think that sort of encapsulates the like essential tension between the two sides of Amy Heckerling in her work that is often represented, but also I think what must feel frustrating. To her in trying to get stuff made because there was a point in time where the industry went like, you got it. We want whatever you're selling. And that self doubt she had was conquered by people begging her to come in. And I think in that New York Times profile where she talks

• 2:35:58Griffin Newman?

  about writing all the time, and a similar thing with her having Vamps on a shelf for years before she finally got it made. I think she is very self defeating if people are not banging down her door, asking what she has. That's a bummer.

• 2:36:13David Sims?

  She made Clueless, though.

• 2:36:14Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, she made

• 2:36:15David Sims?

  I didn't make fucking Clueless.

• 2:36:16Griffin Newman?

  Many great films. That, we don't discuss that enough, that in fact, you have never directed Clueless. And in that sense, you're a giant fucking failure.

• 2:36:25David Sims?

  Uh, no, I didn't try. Didn't even try. Didn't even get off the couch and try.

• 2:36:28Griffin Newman?

  Cowardly.

• 2:36:29David Sims?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 2:36:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. Uh, we have not watched your done or loser episode at the time of this recording. So we're now going to place in the audio of the rankings that we will record after the fact of her entire career.

• 2:36:45Griffin Newman?

  Okay, this is Griffin David.

• 2:36:46David Sims?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:36:47Griffin Newman?

  Zooming in from the future. Heckling rankings.

• 2:36:51David Sims?

  Here we go.

• 2:36:52Griffin Newman?

  David, you want to go first?

• 2:36:53David Sims?

  Number one, Clueless.

• 2:36:54Griffin Newman?

  Weird, surprising.

• 2:36:54David Sims?

  Number two, Fast Times at Ridgemont High.

• 2:36:56Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:36:57David Sims?

  Normal so far.

• 2:36:58Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:36:59David Sims?

  Number three, Look Who's Talking.

• 2:37:00Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:37:01David Sims?

  I have that over Johnny Dangerously in fourth.

• 2:37:03Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:37:04David Sims?

  And Vamps in fifth.

• 2:37:05Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:37:06David Sims?

  And I Could Never Be Your Woman in sixth.

• 2:37:08Griffin Newman?

  Wow.

• 2:37:09David Sims?

  And La Hooza Her in seventh.

• 2:37:11Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:37:11David Sims?

  Euro Vacation in eighth. Look Who's Talking two, bringing up the rear.

• 2:37:15Griffin Newman?

  That's maybe the rudest thing you've ever done in a ranking.

• 2:37:18David Sims?

  What?

• 2:37:19Griffin Newman?

  Mr. Toilet Man alone.

• 2:37:20David Sims?

  You're so

• 2:37:21Griffin Newman?

  deserves better than the lowest.

• 2:37:23David Sims?

  Funny because you're like, how could you say that about Look Who's Talking Two? And I'm like, what? And you're like, Mr. Toilet Man. But then you don't have anything else.

• 2:37:30Griffin Newman?

  That movie is like the holy mountain. It's like deranged, like fever dream images. Okay, here's my ranking.

• 2:37:38David Sims?

  Okay.

• 2:37:38Griffin Newman?

  You might be surprised to hear we have the same top five, just in a slightly different order. But I think that's basically the argu- inarguable.

• 2:37:44David Sims?

  Third.

• 2:37:45Griffin Newman?

  Right. So I have Fast Times at number one.

• 2:37:46David Sims?

  Oh.

• 2:37:46Griffin Newman?

  I love Fast Times.

• 2:37:47David Sims?

  Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, sure.

• 2:37:48Griffin Newman?

  Uh, Clueless, number two. Johnny Dangerously at number three. Look Who's Talking, number four. Vamps at five. The number six, exactly where it belongs, Look Who's Talking Two.

• 2:37:57David Sims?

  Jesus.

• 2:38:00Griffin Newman?

  Number seven, National Lampoon's European Vacation.

• 2:38:04David Sims?

  Whoa.

• 2:38:05Griffin Newman?

  Number eight, La Who's a Her.

• 2:38:07David Sims?

  Okay.

• 2:38:08Griffin Newman?

  Number nine, I Could Never Be Your Woman.

• 2:38:10David Sims?

  Wow, Viper, dead in a ditch.

• 2:38:12Griffin Newman?

  Do you remember that watching that movie feels like staring into the sun?

• 2:38:16David Sims?

  It's like having a stroke.

• 2:38:17Griffin Newman?

  It has things in it I like.

• 2:38:19David Sims?

  Exactly.

• 2:38:19Griffin Newman?

  There is no movie she's made that I dislike holistically.

• 2:38:23David Sims?

  I would say there's one for me.

• 2:38:26Griffin Newman?

  Which is?

• 2:38:26David Sims?

  A little film with Mr. Toilet.

• 2:38:28Griffin Newman?

  You're by calling, by referring to it as a film with Mr. Toilet Man, you're proving your entire thesis wrong. He eats poo poo and pee pee and he's voiced by Mel Brooks. Okay, anyway, that's our ranking.

• 2:38:41David Sims?

  His spit is blue.

• 2:38:43Griffin Newman?

  Ben's ranking is Look Who's Talking Now 10 times, even though she didn't direct that.

• 2:38:47David Sims?

  It's fun, okay? And there's animals and they talk in.

• 2:38:51Griffin Newman?

  It has talking dots.

• 2:38:53David Sims?

  You don't have to tell me.

• 2:38:55Griffin Newman?

  Okay, back to the episode.

• 2:38:59David Sims?

  We've done this box office game before.

• 2:39:01Griffin Newman?

  We have?

• 2:39:02David Sims?

  Yep, we've done it twice.

• 2:39:04Speaker 03

  It's amazing that there is a box office game.

• 2:39:06David Sims?

  Well, that's the thing. It's sort of a nominal box office game. But number one is an animated film that Ben loves.

• 2:39:12Griffin Newman?

  It's an animated film that Ben loves. It is called Wreck It Ralph.

• 2:39:15David Sims?

  Correct. New this week. So Ben was wrecking it. I know you actually first watched the movie on a plane or something, but you were, let's think of you wrecking it.

• 2:39:23Speaker 02

  I didn't end up seeing it.

• 2:39:24Speaker 03

  You said you didn't remember. Yeah, you said you didn't remember much, but you wrecked it.

• 2:39:28David Sims?

  Number two is a box of, at the box office is a serious, sort of big scale-ish drama. It got a couple Oscar nominations, also new this week, and we've also covered it on the show.

• 2:39:40Griffin Newman?

  We've also covered it on this show in the year 2012. It is not a Fincher. Do, do, do, do, do. It's not an Ang Lee. Um, it is not a Demi, it's not a Myers, it's not.

• 2:39:57Griffin Newman?

  It's not Spielberg?

• 2:39:59Griffin Newman?

  Hmm, it's not a crow.

• 2:40:01David Sims?

  November 2nd, 2012, by the way.

• 2:40:02Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, I know, November 2nd, 2012. Not Cameron, it's not Lucas, it's not Sean Millan. David spinning his phone cable really fast. Um, give me a serious Oscar film. Got a couple nominations. Tell me some of the nominations.

• 2:40:18David Sims?

  Best actor.

• 2:40:19Griffin Newman?

  It got best actor.

• 2:40:20David Sims?

  Yes, uh, could have won if this guy hadn't already won an Oscar or two. Uh, and best original screenplay.

• 2:40:27Griffin Newman?

  It got best actor and best original screenplay. And this person had already won two Oscars?

• 2:40:31David Sims?

  He sure had.

• 2:40:32Griffin Newman?

  It's not a Denzel, it is a Denzel, it's called Flight.

• 2:40:35David Sims?

  That's right.

• 2:40:35Griffin Newman?

  There we go.

• 2:40:36David Sims?

  Now, number three, the box office wins best picture for 2012.

• 2:40:39Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:40:40David Sims?

  And what is that?

• 2:40:41Griffin Newman?

  It is, is the artist?

• 2:40:45Griffin Newman?

  Oh, it's, what, are you saying I'm right?

• 2:40:48David Sims?

  No, you are not.

• 2:40:49Griffin Newman?

  With 2012, that's the, the year before?

• 2:40:52David Sims?

  Artist is 2011.

• 2:40:53Griffin Newman?

  Okay, so 2012, the best picture winner was, or go fuck yourself?

• 2:40:57David Sims?

  There you go.

• 2:40:57Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:40:58David Sims?

  Now, number four, we just had to get to four. I believe has really befuddled you both times.

• 2:41:03Griffin Newman?

  Hmm.

• 2:41:04David Sims?

  I think both box times we played this box office game, you took several

• 2:41:08Griffin Newman?

  Cracking my knuckles.

• 2:41:09David Sims?

  swings at this one.

• 2:41:11Griffin Newman?

  Is

• 2:41:11David Sims?

  It is an action film. It is directed by a first time director who's better known as a musician.

• 2:41:19Griffin Newman?

  Oh, fuck. The problem is, I know exactly what this movie is, and I always get the wording of the title wrong. Is it called The Man With The Golden Fist?

• 2:41:31David Sims?

  You always say that, and it's always

• 2:41:33Griffin Newman?

  Fuck!

• 2:41:34David Sims?

  What material?

• 2:41:36Griffin Newman?

  Iron?

• 2:41:36David Sims?

  There you go. There's one episode, I think, where you're like, bronze, brass, stone. Like, it takes you way too long to get to iron.

• 2:41:43Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:41:44David Sims?

  Despite, yes, there is this martial arts film, I believe so.

• 2:41:48Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:49David Sims?

  Despite Ben's love of Netflix's Iron Fist.

• 2:41:51Griffin Newman?

  Of course.

• 2:41:52David Sims?

  Number five of the box office is an action sequel.

• 2:41:55Griffin Newman?

  It's an action sequel. It's number two, it's a deuce.

• 2:41:57David Sims?

  It's a number two.

• 2:41:58Griffin Newman?

  Is it a T O O two?

• 2:42:00David Sims?

  No.

• 2:42:00Griffin Newman?

  Hattrling style?

• 2:42:00David Sims?

  No, it's not.

• 2:42:02Griffin Newman?

  Um, it's an action sequel, it's a deuce. Did it keep going after this, or was it the end of the road? It kept going.

• 2:42:08Speaker 03

  Sexy voice.

• 2:42:09David Sims?

  Well, I'm doing the guy.

• 2:42:10Griffin Newman?

  Oh, he's doing the guy. It's not John Wick Chapter Two, is it?

• 2:42:12David Sims?

  No.

• 2:42:13Griffin Newman?

  But the guy's got his voice.

• 2:42:14Speaker 03

  This guy should stay around.

• 2:42:16Griffin Newman?

  Okay. Okay. And it's not, it's not Butler and it's not Statham. No, older. Older. Who's old? Who's old? Stallone? No, younger. Well, younger. Think a little younger. Uh, it's not Ford and it's not Eastwood. No. No, but he's mostly an action guy? Uh, later in life only. Oh.

• 2:42:38Speaker 04

  He's got a very particular set of skills.

• 2:42:40Griffin Newman?

  Well, I didn't want to do the accent.

• 2:42:41Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 2:42:43Griffin Newman?

  Uh, this is Taken Two. That's right. Yeah. A movie I often say has one of the best setups ever.

• 2:42:47David Sims?

  You love the setup for that movie, but it sucks.

• 2:42:49Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:49David Sims?

  Uh, very sucks, very bad.

• 2:42:51Griffin Newman?

  It's actually a really bad movie.

• 2:42:53David Sims?

  I don't like Taken One. Like I think Taken One is massively overrated. It just has the Nissan juice and like, it's kind of something, you know.

• 2:43:01Griffin Newman?

  You know what? I'm going to say the thing. It's a perfect cultural object. It is not a good movie, but it's a perfect cultural object. And two is a dog shit movie for idiots.

• 2:43:08David Sims?

  Forget it, forget it, forget it. Just no. Cause like what they then figured out is like, oh, Nissan can just do this kind of thing.

• 2:43:15Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:43:15David Sims?

  It doesn't have to be in the Taken verse.

• 2:43:17Griffin Newman?

  Taken Three kind of has no hook.

• 2:43:19David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:19Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. It's just sort of like, right. And he's back. No, I think no one gets Taken Three.

• 2:43:24Speaker 02

  Uh, it's okay.

• 2:43:25Griffin Newman?

  I'm gonna take you.

• 2:43:26Speaker 02

  I feel like they should have played around with the titling a little bit more.

• 2:43:31Griffin Newman?

  Taken TOO.

• 2:43:32Speaker 02

  Taking.

• 2:43:33Speaker 03

  Oh, sure.

• 2:43:34Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:43:34Speaker 03

  That's about it, right?

• 2:43:35Speaker 02

  Well, hold on.

• 2:43:36Griffin Newman?

  Given Back. The third one should be called Given Back.

• 2:43:38David Sims?

  Yeah. It's good when we're doing, um.

• 2:43:41Griffin Newman?

  Return.

• 2:43:42David Sims?

  Bits.

• 2:43:42Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:43David Sims?

  And Ben goes, hold on. That's when you know good stuff's coming. Number six is Cloud Atlas. We've covered. Number seven is, uh, Hotel.

• 2:43:52Griffin Newman?

  We've done this box office game three times.

• 2:43:54David Sims?

  No, no, no, cause this isn't new that week. I'm saying Ralph and Flight are both new.

• 2:43:59Griffin Newman?

  Got it.

• 2:44:00David Sims?

  Uh, number six is Cloud Atlas. Number seven is Hotel Transylvania.

• 2:44:03Griffin Newman?

  There we go.

• 2:44:04David Sims?

  Number eight is Paranormal Activity Four, the one with the Xbox.

• 2:44:08Griffin Newman?

  The best one?

• 2:44:09David Sims?

  No, three is the best one.

• 2:44:10Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:11David Sims?

  Number nine.

• 2:44:11Griffin Newman?

  The connect.

• 2:44:12David Sims?

  Three is, four is not the best.

• 2:44:14Griffin Newman?

  Four is not the best.

• 2:44:14David Sims?

  Maybe the worst one.

• 2:44:15Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:15David Sims?

  Four, uh, number nine is Here Comes the Boom.

• 2:44:18Griffin Newman?

  Of course.

• 2:44:19Speaker 03

  There it went.

• 2:44:19Griffin Newman?

  What if we remade Warrior one year later?

• 2:44:23David Sims?

  With Kevin James. And number 10 is the absolutely indefensible Silent Hill Revelation.

• 2:44:31Griffin Newman?

  Sure. Now, David.

• 2:44:32David Sims?

  Three D.

• 2:44:32Griffin Newman?

  Would you do me a kindness? Would you just, just for my own joy? Remind me what the numbers were on Ralph and Flight opening weekend?

• 2:44:39David Sims?

  Ralph was $49 million and Flight was 24.9.

• 2:44:42Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, I remember feeling that Ralph opening was lower than I expected. But then it had that Thanksgiving. It had a long tail.

• 2:44:48Speaker 03

  So this was November 2nd?

• 2:44:49David Sims?

  November 2nd.

• 2:44:50Speaker 03

  They couldn't even give Vamps like a real Halloween weekend?

• 2:44:53Griffin Newman?

  It's close. You know what?

• 2:44:54Speaker 03

  You know?

• 2:44:54Griffin Newman?

  Caroline, you're right.

• 2:44:56David Sims?

  But maybe a week before would have been quicker.

• 2:44:58Griffin Newman?

  Theater, at least put it out before Halloween instead of two days after.

• 2:45:02Speaker 03

  Let us see it on Halloween.

• 2:45:03Griffin Newman?

  That is rude.

• 2:45:04David Sims?

  We have done the week before's box office, which, because it is Cloud Atlas's first week.

• 2:45:08Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:45:09David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:09Griffin Newman?

  Well.

• 2:45:10Speaker 03

  It's just, it could have been Vamps.

• 2:45:11Griffin Newman?

  It could have been Vamps. I hope people watch this movie. I hope if you thought this is one you could skip and just listen to the episode.

• 2:45:18David Sims?

  Check it out.

• 2:45:19Griffin Newman?

  I will say at the time we're recording this, it is on all of America's most free streaming services. It is on Tubi, it is on Pluto, it is on Fubo, it's on all of them.

• 2:45:28David Sims?

  Yeah, this thing is Tubi.

• 2:45:29Griffin Newman?

  You can watch it on Plex with ads. It's everywhere.

• 2:45:32David Sims?

  And do, please do.

• 2:45:33Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:35David Sims?

  Oh, man.

• 2:45:36Griffin Newman?

  I think it's quite a good film.

• 2:45:37David Sims?

  Next up on our podcast is the Coen Brothers, so it's not a surprise.

• 2:45:41Griffin Newman?

  No big surprise. I keep asking people, like, being asked by people, spoilers, but like, what's the rest of the year? And I remind them.

• 2:45:48David Sims?

  The Coen Brothers.

• 2:45:49Griffin Newman?

  The Coens won and they made 20 movies.

• 2:45:51David Sims?

  A lot of their movies.

• 2:45:53Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:53David Sims?

  Are gonna be covered.

• 2:45:54Griffin Newman?

  Congratulations. That's the rest of the year, along with new release films. Oh, and David's wearing his congratulations shirt. Caroline, thank you so much for coming back.

• 2:46:02Speaker 03

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 2:46:03Griffin Newman?

  Far too long. We'll have you on again sooner.

• 2:46:05David Sims?

  Yeah, you want to do Blood Simple? Just come back next week.

• 2:46:06Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, you want to keep it going?

• 2:46:08Speaker 03

  Just keep this going. Keep this part going.

• 2:46:10Griffin Newman?

  Um, anything you want to plug?

• 2:46:13Speaker 03

  Um, not really. I hope I have more stuff to plug by the time this comes out. Um, I just want to issue a quick apology for anyone who was at a 2016, um, show at Littlefield.

• 2:46:25Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:46:25Speaker 03

  That, um, had 12 of us, including Mother of Blankies Emily Ushida, taking, um, a track for each Carly Rae Jepsen song on the hit, um, album Emotion.

• 2:46:34David Sims?

  Great, great song.

• 2:46:35Speaker 03

  Um, which featured me. I had taken the song Warm Blood and I decided to give a little PowerPoint presentation on lesbian vampires. I did get very nervous and too drunk and I can't imagine that was good. Also, I did, um, take that song away from the very wonderful, award-winning, um, National Treasure writer, Hanifad Durakib, who wanted Warm Blood and whatever he tells the story about that night, he talks about how he didn't get Warm Blood and he wanted it.

• 2:47:02David Sims?

  What did he get?

• 2:47:03Speaker 03

  Um, I don't remember this. Oh, maybe it was, I really like you. And he put up, and the reason why he talks about this is because he put up um, a screen that just said, tell someone you love them tonight. And he just talked as he can and just gave a wonderful, moving, meaningful speech about telling people you love them. And people talk about it all the time and reference it. And I- So stop complaining then. He got a great one. But he always talks about how he didn't get warm blood. And that's because it was me talking about lesbian vampires. And I thought this would be a great opportunity. A great forum. To um, apologize for that. Because I do feel like there are some people listening who probably went to that. Emily did um, the LA hallucination song because she um, is an LA baby.

• 2:47:41Griffin Newman?

  I cannot think of another example of asking someone if they have anything they want to plug. Instead, they offer an apology for a thing that happened nine years ago.

• 2:47:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you remember? I assume. No offense to that. I sure, I mean, I don't.

• 2:47:52Griffin Newman?

  Do you still have any of those PowerPoint slides?

• 2:47:55Speaker 03

  Um, I'm sure I do. I think it's probably online somewhere. I have a shirt that I got from it. But anyway, I just felt like, you know, in honor of vamps.

• 2:48:02Griffin Newman?

  Uh, you're the best. We owe you big time.

• 2:48:05Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:48:05Griffin Newman?

  For your, David is just fucking dropping a celebratory deuce to end the episode.

• 2:48:12Speaker 03

  And um, disrespectful to Amy Heckling, but-

• 2:48:14Griffin Newman?

  I agree. We gave him air conditioning and Sour Patch Kids. We let him go hog wild this episode, and this is how he repays us.

• 2:48:24Speaker 03

  God, those Sour Patch Kids hits. I'm saying, this is, I had them for a reason. This is how I've managed to do it. I'll have to go get a bag for myself. Lemonade Sour Patch Kids. Um, they have apple flavors in the fall. Look them up. I've never tried. The only time I've ever ordered snacks off Amazon. Specialty Sour Patch Kids. Get into them.

• 2:48:41Griffin Newman?

  Okay, okay.

• 2:48:42Speaker 03

  Not sponsored by-

• 2:48:42Griffin Newman?

  That's a good plug.

• 2:48:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:48:44Griffin Newman?

  Thank you for being here.

• 2:48:45Speaker 03

  Um, you're so welcome. It's such a pleasure.

• 2:48:46Griffin Newman?

  Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe, and tune in next week for Blood Simple, the start of the Coen Brothers' filmographies. And as always, canonically, and he's not allowed to say anything against this because he waved that right. David is currently taking the world's sloppiest shit. That's how he ended the episode. And if he disagrees, then here's his chance to offer rebuttal.

• 2:49:22Speaker 06

  Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hostly. Our creative producer is Marie Bardy Salinas, and our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by JJ Birch. Our theme song is by Lain Montgomery and the Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Holly Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon Blank Check Special Features

• 2:50:04Speaker 06

  for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social @BlankCheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.