198. Kim Philby: Interrogated by MI5 (Ep 3)

Two of the Cambridge spies have fled to Moscow and now the finger of suspicion is pointing at the Third Man - Kim Philby. But will the top MI6 officer crack under pressure as the claims against him become public? Listen as David and Gordon tell the story of Kim Philby’s unravelling. ------------------- Sign-up for our free newsletter where producer Becki takes you behind the scenes of the show: therestisclassified.com/newsletter ------------------- Join the Declassified Club to go deeper into the world of espionage with exclusive Q&As, interviews with top intelligence insiders, regular livestreams, ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, and weekly deep dives into original spy stories. Members also get curated reading lists, special book discounts, prize draws, and access to our private chat community. Just go to ⁠⁠therestisclassified.com⁠ or join on Apple Podcasts. ------------------- Get a 10% discount on business PCs, printers and accessories using the code TRIC10. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://HP.com/CLASSIFIED⁠⁠⁠⁠ for more information. T&C's apply. ------------------- EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/restisclassified Upgrade your online protection with an all-in-one security app! It’s risk free with NordVPN’s 30-day money-back guarantee 🌍 ------------------- Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠⁠ Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@restisclassified⁠ Video Editor: Joe Pettit Social Producer: Emma Jackson Assistant Producer: Alfie Rowe Producer: Becki Hills Head of History: Dom Johnson Exec Producer: Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03David McCloskey?

  For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter, and discounted books, join the Declassified Club at therestisclassified.com.

• 0:25David McCloskey?

  Two of the Cambridge spies have fled to Moscow, and now the finger of suspicion is pointing at the potential third man, Kim Philby. But will the top MI6 officer crack under pressure as the claims against him become public? Well, welcome to The Rest Is Classified. I'm David McCloskey.

• 0:42Gordon Corera?

  And I'm Gordon Carrera.

• 0:44David McCloskey?

  Well, last time we looked at this incredibly intricate episode in the life of Kim Philby, in which the web around him in the Cambridge spy ring is beginning to tighten. His friends, contacts, Donald McLean and Guy Burgess have fled to Moscow. And now Kim Philby, who's connected to these guys, is beginning to face maybe the first little bits of suspicion that he might be involved. So he has been called back from his post as head of station in Washington back to London. And he is going to be interrogated to see if he is connected to these Cambridge spies. But first, a word from our sponsors at HP.

• 1:29Gordon Corera?

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• 1:32David McCloskey?

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• 2:36Speaker 02

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• 3:55David McCloskey?

  So Philby is back in London now to face, I think, really for the first time in his career, real suspicion and interrogations around whether he is involved in the, what is going to be soon called the Cambridge spy ring.

• 4:11Gordon Corera?

  That's right. He first goes to his mother's flat as he comes back to London, calls MI6. And they say, can you come to MI5 now on Curzon Street? Never a good sign. They are, of course, the spy hunters, the counter espionage service. They've already put his mother's flat under surveillance. So they're already very suspicious about him. And the first of what are many interrogations are about to begin. Now, it's interesting because they are different in character. The first interrogation is by a very capable MI5 officer called Dick White. He's a very important person in British intelligence because he starts in MI5, ends up running MI5, and ends up running MI6. He's the only person to ever do that. But this first meeting is a little bit light.

• 4:56Gordon Corera?

  Philby's a cool customer. And we spoke about this last time a little bit. He knows what the evidence is against him. He knows there are just going to be these fragments. You know, the fact he was left wing at Cambridge. He's admitted he was married to Lizzie Friedman, who was a communist in 1934. But, you know, he's always said that was just a, you know, get her a pass, more youthful indiscretion. There'd been some little leads in the system about the Soviets sending a British journalist to Spain. He knows that could point to him. And he knows his other Cambridge friends, Burgess and McLean have gone bad. But he also knows none of that is proof. You know, none of, it's all circumstantial. None of it is actually hard evidence that he is a spy. It's just little indications that there's something suspicious about him. And he knows the way they work is they need a confession.

• 5:41Gordon Corera?

  Without a confession, almost no one gets convicted of espionage. And so if he knows that, the only problem for him is if he cracks, because maybe there's some new evidence that he doesn't know about. So that's his question is, is there something new that they've got? Because if all they've got is just these fragments, he's going to be okay. You know, he knows Burgess and McLean are a bit of a problem. But McLean, he barely knew, you know, hadn't had much contact with him. Burgess is obviously a bit of a problem.

• 6:11David McCloskey?

  Burgess was the house guest.

• 6:12Gordon Corera?

  Burgess was the house guest. But then if you really were both Soviet agents, would you put him up in your house?

• 6:17David McCloskey?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:18Gordon Corera?

  It's almost too stupid, isn't it?

• 6:20David McCloskey?

  It is interesting, isn't it? Because obviously, the Soviets would have never wanted Guy Burgess to be living with Philby in Washington. And yet, it works out so that it's actually, it's kind of helpful to him in his defense.

• 6:33Gordon Corera?

  Yeah, because it's like, no way would I, you know, I was just helping out this kind of roguish Burgess as a friend. So when he's asked about these things, he's got an answer for all of them. And with Burgess, he could say, I was just trying to do my best to keep an old friend out of trouble by putting him up. So, you know, when he's having this initial, I think it's more of a chat than an interrogation, frankly, with Dick White. That's what he's saying. And you can tell pretty quickly as this first conversation comes that they don't have any new evidence. He can sense from the questions they ask him what they know and the fragments they've got, because they're putting to him, well, what about, you know, what about your marriage? What about your travel? What about Guy Burgess? But there's nothing new. And, you know, he says he can't believe, I can't believe Guy Burgess is a spy. But after all, the Foreign Office employed him.

• 7:17Gordon Corera?

  The Foreign Office is sending him to Washington. It's not my fault. I put him up.

• 7:20David McCloskey?

  Yeah.

• 7:21Gordon Corera?

  I mean, that's their decision to put him up. And I, you know, he's like, I barely knew this McLean guy. So he's got, he's got his defense worked out pretty well.

• 7:28David McCloskey?

  The Americans, though, have got to be really impatient, really keen to see if the Brits have gotten to the bottom of this. Because of course, we talked about this a little bit last time. It has to be obvious that there is at least a third man.

• 7:43Gordon Corera?

  Yeah.

• 7:43David McCloskey?

  Because somebody tipped off Burgess and McLean.

• 7:46Gordon Corera?

  Yeah. And it's interesting because the Americans are going to be a theme, I think, throughout this investigation, this mole hunt. Because they are on Britain's back and on MI5's back saying, you've got a problem. You need to identify it. The Brits are also kind of, you can see there's notes in the archives when you look in the files, that the Brits are worried about the pressure from the Americans. And for instance, there's one note going, oh, if the Americans find out that we knew Philby's first wife was a communist, they're going to go nuts. You know, let's not tell them. They agree. So these chats, interrogations with Dick White continue. They get a little bit trickier, you know? How did he pay for some of his trips to Spain? When he was a young journalist and he was supposedly broke?

• 8:31Gordon Corera?

  Philby says he sold some of his personal possessions. Of course, that actually had been funded by the KGB. So it's getting a bit trickier. He says, how was McLean tipped off? Well, maybe when he's, the Foreign Office stopped giving him sensitive documents and McLean spots surveillance on him, then he's going to realize, you know? And we know McLean could see the surveillance on him.

• 8:52David McCloskey?

  So trying to concoct a scenario where there isn't a third man, and McLean just realized

• 8:58Gordon Corera?

  Yeah.

• 8:58David McCloskey?

  that he was, the game was up and it was time to go.

• 9:01Gordon Corera?

  Yeah. So he's kind of toughing it out at this point. But here's the problem. It's the Americans. Because he's summoned to see the chief of MI6. And the problem is that the Americans have been leaning on the Brits to say, we think this guy's bad. And who is it? Who is it who is leading the charge against Philby?

• 9:25David McCloskey?

  Bill Harvey.

• 9:25Gordon Corera?

  Bill Harvey, the man whose wife Burgess insulted and caricatured over that dinner in 1951. It's why it's the most, the worst dinner party ever. Because it's the most fateful dinner party.

• 9:37David McCloskey?

  It all goes back to a lewd caricature.

• 9:39Gordon Corera?

  It does.

• 9:39David McCloskey?

  It's going to obsess Bill Harvey. And I guess... Yeah, kind, I mean, he, he must have been so enraged. We keep, I mean, it, it was such a chaotic and insane anecdote, that party. But it really does, I mean, here, we're in the third episode of this series and it's still, the ripple effects.

• 9:59Gordon Corera?

  Are still going on.

• 10:00David McCloskey?

  Are still going on.

• 10:01Gordon Corera?

  Because June nineteen fifty one, Bill Harvey has written a five-page memo.

• 10:06David McCloskey?

  He's obsessed.

• 10:07Gordon Corera?

  Yeah, outlining the case that Philby is a badon, that Philby is, is, is a traitor. And it's actually bang on. I mean, Harvey has got it absolutely right. He says Philby knew about Venona, so therefore knew about the investigation in McLean. You know, that it suggests Burgess might have been Philby's courier and contact with the KGB. And that Philby's treachery could explain why all these CIA and MI six operations are going wrong. So, you know, Harvey is on his case and he's sent this memo to the director of the CIA and bypassed Angleton. He's just gone, you know, straight to the top. And meanwhile, Angleton's written his own memo at the CIA. And Angleton's memo basically goes, Philby's probably okay.

• 10:52David McCloskey?

  And the logic, what is the logic for Philby's probably okay?

• 10:58Gordon Corera?

  In a way, I, I think there's an emotional logic, which from Angleton's side, which is.

• 11:02David McCloskey?

  They're close friends.

• 11:03Gordon Corera?

  Which is they're close friends and where Angleton is thinking to himself, uh, if he is bad. I've shared so many secrets with him, this is a disaster for me, I don't want to believe he's bad.

• 11:14David McCloskey?

  Yeah.

• 11:14Gordon Corera?

  Whereas Harvey is like, he insulted my wife, he is bad. So you can see emotionally, these two guys, Harvey and Angleton, are starting from just different positions. And they write different memos and, you know, Angleton basically says, it's circumstantial. There's no proof Philby is a traitor.

• 11:30David McCloskey?

  Angleton also at the dinner party.

• 11:31Gordon Corera?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 11:32David McCloskey?

  And Angleton had to actually physically restrain.

• 11:37Gordon Corera?

  Harvey.

• 11:38David McCloskey?

  Bill Harvey from hitting Burgess.

• 11:41Gordon Corera?

  And actually, this is going to start a feud between Harvey and Angleton because they, they're on different sides of the Philby argument. But the Harvey memo has gone to the director of CIA. And CIA appears convinced enough to say to, to MI six, we don't want Philby back.

• 11:59David McCloskey?

  Yeah.

• 11:59Gordon Corera?

  You know, we, we do not trust, uh, Kim Philby anymore. And we do not want him, not just in Washington, but we don't want him in MI six. And so I think it's a really interesting case of the Americans, you know, for the first time, I think, squeezing. British intelligence because they're effectively saying, you know, if you don't pull the plug on Philby. We are going to pull the plug on you.

• 12:24David McCloskey?

  And we can't share with your service.

• 12:25Gordon Corera?

  We can't share with your service. You know, we can't trust you with secrets if someone like Philby, who we think is a traitor, is inside MI six. So you better stop. And the Brits are worried about this, the head of MI five flies out to see J Edgar Hoover of the FBI. You know, to try and avoid this collapsing, the intelligence sharing relationship. MI six are not convinced Philby is a spy, but the Americans are. And that is enough for them to be forced to act.

• 12:51David McCloskey?

  Or, or even if they're not, because Angleton obviously doesn't think he is. It's, you know, seen from the standpoint of the CIA director, it's kind of like, why take the risk?

• 13:01Gordon Corera?

  Yeah.

• 13:01David McCloskey?

  You know, even if you're not convinced, maybe he's not, you say, well, in the off-chance, perhaps that he actually is compromised by the KGB or working for the KGB. Like, why, why take the risk? So just get him out, yeah.

• 13:15Gordon Corera?

  And so it works because chief of MI six summons Philby. And Philby will say that the chief of MI six looks visibly distressed. So all of this suggests that the chief of MI six is, is doing something he doesn't want to do.

• 13:29David McCloskey?

  Yeah.

• 13:30Gordon Corera?

  But he's been forced to do by the Americans. And he says, says to Philby, we're going to have to let you go. I'm really sorry, but it's because of those Americans. So July nineteen fifty one, Philby is paid off with about four thousand pounds in compensation. Which is quite a lot of money, I think, trying to work out, it's more than a hundred thousand today.

• 13:47David McCloskey?

  Yeah.

• 13:48Gordon Corera?

  But it's partly because Philby doesn't have a pension or anything else because he's not, not qualified for that yet.

• 13:55Gordon Corera?

  And it's almost apologetic from MI six. It's like, really sorry, Americans have.

• 14:00David McCloskey?

  Those nasty Americans.

• 14:01Gordon Corera?

  Those nasty Americans.

• 14:02David McCloskey?

  Yeah.

• 14:02Gordon Corera?

  But you've got to leave.

• 14:03David McCloskey?

  So Philby is, you know, it's nineteen fifty one, he's kind of adrift at this point.

• 14:10Gordon Corera?

  Moves to a house in Rixmansworth. He's out of work, he hasn't got much money despite this payoff, because he's got a growing family, things don't look great. Um, it's interesting because he's also perhaps not aware of just how much is going on in the background at this point. Because while MI six are like, okay, we'll let you go. The Americans are unhappy and still unhappy that he's not been brought to book. And they're still pressing the Brits and MI five are still after him.

• 14:42Gordon Corera?

  MI five, and this is interesting because you get to a kind of cultural difference between MI five and MI six. MI six is kind of, some people think Philby's actually entirely innocent. A few might think he's guilty, but you know, there's, there's quite a lot of support from him. MI five are now more and more convinced that he's, he's bad. And that MI six have been covering their own guy up, you know, and protecting one of their own people. So they are going to be convinced that they still want to get their man and go after him.

• 15:12David McCloskey?

  Did the Harvey memo get shared with MI five as well or MI six?

• 15:17Gordon Corera?

  Yeah, it goes, it goes through the system. But there are also these spy hunters in MI five who are convinced about it. So they actually start to watch Philby and keep watching him now, even though he's been booted out of MI six to try and see if they can find him. I mean, there's surveillance on him, he's going through a bad patch, right? Because he's been kicked out. So at one point, they see him coming out of a pub so drunk, he vomits in the toilets of Piccadilly Tube Station. I mean, so, you know, this is Burgess like.

• 15:47David McCloskey?

  Yeah, he's having, it's a, it's a little bit of a rough patch.

• 15:50Gordon Corera?

  Yeah, we, yeah, not something I've done. There's also another kind of bizarre bit to this where he buys a decommissioned London black cab, a taxi. Which he then drives around, him and his drunk friends, including to Highbury to watch Arsenal Football Club play.

• 16:08David McCloskey?

  Arsenal, why does Arsenal come up all the time?

• 16:10Gordon Corera?

  All the time.

• 16:10David McCloskey?

  Bin Laden's football club?

• 16:12Gordon Corera?

  Yeah.

• 16:13David McCloskey?

  The, uh, the deposed Prime Minister Keir Starmer's favorite football club.

• 16:18Gordon Corera?

  And Kim Philby.

• 16:19David McCloskey?

  And Kim Philby.

• 16:19Gordon Corera?

  And Kim Philby, big Arsenal man, uh, sorry to any Arsenal fans out there. But the, the, it's funny, the watchers from MI five are following this black cab and they're like, he can't even spot us because the wing mirror on this, on this taxi is broken.

• 16:33David McCloskey?

  Driving drunk and smashing it into things and breaking the mirrors off.

• 16:37Gordon Corera?

  There's a weird patch nineteen fifty one, but they're still on to him. And nineteen fifty one, end of the year, he's summoned to be interrogated again. But this time, it's much more serious than the previous Dick White interrogation. It's a guy called Helenus Milmo, uh, on behalf of MI five.

• 16:53David McCloskey?

  Is that a real name?

• 16:53Gordon Corera?

  It is, it is, he's quite a famous, quite a famous kind of barrister lawyer, MI five investigator. He was known as Buster, Buster Milmo, because he was like a tough interrogator, big round face, you know. He broke German spies in World War Two. So, you know, this is going to be a tougher, a tougher gig for Philby.

• 17:15David McCloskey?

  What's new at this point?

• 17:17Gordon Corera?

  It, it, what's new is, I think, the pressure from the Americans and MI five.

• 17:20David McCloskey?

  It just, they keep squeezing.

• 17:21Gordon Corera?

  They just keep squeezing.

• 17:22David McCloskey?

  Okay.

• 17:23Gordon Corera?

  And this time, it's a three-hour interrogation. Now, this is interesting because Milmo's doing the interrogation, but sitting to his left, there's a quiet MI five officer. And his name is Arthur Martin. And he's important, Arthur Martin, because he is going to become Philby's chief pursuer. He's going to become effectively the leader of the mole hunts in the UK. Philby can remember Martin sitting there, Arthur Martin, silent, watching his movements, Philby says. So Martin is the kind of intense, focused, detailed man. And, you know, there's an element of class to this because, you know, Martin is not, if you like, officer class. He's not posh like Philby and the Cambridge spies.

• 18:06Gordon Corera?

  You know, like a lot of MI five people, they come from more normal backgrounds than the kind of, you know, the fanciest establishment backgrounds of, of the Cambridge spies. And they dislike, I think, the socially superior MI six types. And people like Arthur Martin hate the idea that these people might be traitors and they're getting away with it.

• 18:25David McCloskey?

  I guess essentially the idea would be Philby has been protected by his kind of social peers.

• 18:32Gordon Corera?

  Yeah.

• 18:32David McCloskey?

  Who have said. Well, you know, maybe he's committed some indiscretions along the way.

• 18:38Gordon Corera?

  But it can't possibly be bad.

• 18:39David McCloskey?

  He can't possibly be bad, or it would just be so embarrassing for us.

• 18:43Gordon Corera?

  Yeah.

• 18:44David McCloskey?

  If he turns out to be bad. So let's just let him, you know, drive around in his black cab.

• 18:49Gordon Corera?

  Taxi.

• 18:49David McCloskey?

  And he's not hurting anybody.

• 18:51Gordon Corera?

  And Martin will not let it.

• 18:52David McCloskey?

  Right.

• 18:52Gordon Corera?

  He will not let it lie. And I think the element of class to this, that great British kind of obsession is definitely there. And Martin is a different class from Philby. And he's been investigating, he's been investigating, you know, Lizzie, Philby's first wife. He's been investigating those contacts in the 30s who helped recruit Philby, people like Edith Tudor Hart. He's pulling people in who know them. He's trying to kind of pick apart that, the origins of the Cambridge spy ring in the early 30s. He's kind of on to that.

• 19:23David McCloskey?

  And we should say Edith Tudor Hart introduced Philby to his first handler.

• 19:28Gordon Corera?

  Exactly, yeah. And she'd become a photographer and she'd taken pictures of Philby back in the 30s. She gets kind of mysterious phone calls around this time and she destroys some of these pictures. They're aware that Martin, Arthur Martin particularly, is just digging back into the 30s and into the origins of this. But here in this interrogation, they're trying to push Philby. And it's a really different interrogation from the kind of gentle chat with Dick White. Milmo takes a different attack. He won't let Philby smoke, you know, he's banging the table. He tries to dial up the pressure. And in the tape of Kim Philby, which I uncovered from the archives of the East German Security Service,

• 20:08Gordon Corera?

  in which club members can hear as an exclusive bonus episode, so do join the declassified club if you want to hear that. He talks about what it was like to be interrogated and what it was like to sit through these interrogations. It's fascinating because he can talk about the different ways of different methods interrogators use, but how always he focuses on keeping his nerve. It's a really interesting account of what it's actually like to be interrogated.

• 20:36David McCloskey?

  Philby is, I think, increasingly worried though about some of the facts that they're hitting him with, right? Because there's this very interesting case where in 1945, there had been this spectacular rise in the volume of Soviet radio traffic at, shockingly, just the moment that Philby had been informed about a Soviet KGB officer attempting to defect to the West in Turkey.

• 21:04Gordon Corera?

  Volkov.

• 21:05David McCloskey?

  Volkov.

• 21:06Gordon Corera?

  Yeah. And this famous defector where Volkov offers his services. Philby is working on Soviet counterintelligence in London and goes, oh, oh, this could betray me. So he betrays Volkov by telling the Soviets and delaying going out to see Volkov. And Volkov eventually gets caught, taken back to the Soviet Union. And the investigators have worked out, Arthur Martin and others, that there is this moment when radio traffic picks up from the Soviet Embassy in London at the, immediately after Philby is told about it.

• 21:38David McCloskey?

  That is the inspiration for the beginning of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.

• 21:42Gordon Corera?

  Exactly.

• 21:43David McCloskey?

  Where essentially this, this exact scenario.

• 21:47Gordon Corera?

  Yeah.

• 21:47David McCloskey?

  He lifts and fictionalizes. And that is the thing that tips off Smiley or convinces Smiley upfront that someone inside the circus has gone bad.

• 21:59Gordon Corera?

  Yeah. And it's a really interesting example of where the kind of, this real life mole hunt feeds into fiction. Again, that's something we're talking about in the, in the bonus episodes for club members. And we're doing one on fiction and spy fiction and how it's inspired by real life mole hunts. And this is an example of that. So do join the club if you want to hear that as well. But yes, I mean, so that's one of the examples where this, this great suspicion, there's also been a spike in radio traffic in Washington just after Philby's told about the investigation leading to McLean. And this is interesting because the interrogator, Milmo, kind of says to Philby, how can you account for this? You know, what explains this? Philby has worked out the way to deal with that is to just go, I can't.

• 22:42David McCloskey?

  I don't know.

• 22:43Gordon Corera?

  I don't know.

• 22:43David McCloskey?

  Yeah.

• 22:44Gordon Corera?

  I can't account for it. And, and leave it there rather than try and kind of bluff. And Philby's good at that. Recently, the transcript of this interrogation has been released into the National Archives. I was reading it the other day. And you can see Philby is actually on the rack. You know, he's been asked these questions which he can't answer. He doesn't give an answer and he can't answer them. And his stammer comes back during the interrogation. Remember, Philby's got this stammer, which the stammer comes and goes. You know, you wonder if it's deliberate. But it goes on for three to four hours and then it's over. Philby hasn't cracked in the sense he hasn't confessed.

• 23:25Gordon Corera?

  But Milmo, the interrogator, writes a note which has a devastating but difficult conclusion. It says, I find myself unable to avoid the conclusion that Philby is and has for many years been a Soviet agent and that he was directly and deliberately responsible for the leakage which in fact occurred. And leakage is the Burgess and McLean tip off. So Milmo is telling people, basically, I think Philby's guilty. But the problem is Philby's not cracked.

• 23:56David McCloskey?

  And I guess it's worth, it's worth pausing on why Milmo has become convinced. Because again, the evidence is all circumstantial. But I suppose the analysis of the radio traffic and the comparison of that timing versus when Philby knew things. Again, it is circumstantial, but that is relatively new.

• 24:16Gordon Corera?

  Yeah, that's new.

• 24:17David McCloskey?

  That is not, that was not out there when Philby is recalled from Washington to go back to London.

• 24:23Gordon Corera?

  And this is really Arthur Martin having kind of chased down these leads. And now they've got enough questions that they can put to Philby, which, put it this way, he can't answer them. And I think that is enough, the fact he can't answer them, for them to conclude he's a spy. But that is not enough to prosecute someone. I mean, you can't prosecute someone.

• 24:40David McCloskey?

  It's hard to prosecute people for espionage, isn't it?

• 24:43Gordon Corera?

  Yeah, it's really hard.

• 24:44David McCloskey?

  It really is.

• 24:44Gordon Corera?

  And so, you know, the view is, well, okay, he's bad, but with nothing we can do. But this is, again, really interesting part of the story. Because, you know, Milmo has said, I think he's a Soviet agent. What is the MI6 response to the Milmo report? I mean, the official note to the Prime Minister in the National Archives from the Chief of MI6 at the time says, we feel that the case against Philby is not proved and moreover is capable of a less sinister interpretation than is implied by the bare evidence.

• 25:19David McCloskey?

  Hmm.

• 25:20Gordon Corera?

  I mean, it's a, it's basically, you've not proved it.

• 25:23David McCloskey?

  Yeah.

• 25:23Gordon Corera?

  You're saying he's a spy. MI6 are like, you've not proved it. So we're not going to take that.

• 25:29David McCloskey?

  Well, and furthermore, he's not employed anymore.

• 25:30Gordon Corera?

  He's not employed anymore. So, you know, the Foreign Secretary says, well, okay, you know, we can't prove it. Give him back his passport. If you want to surveil him, MI5, you can do that. So you have this difference now, which is going to be important, which is MI5 is like, we're sure he's guilty. And MI6 is, many of them will continue to defend him over the years.

• 25:52David McCloskey?

  What I also find interesting is the timing of this because in the US, for example, this is when we're getting really the start of what becomes known as the Red Scare. Which then goes way beyond.

• 26:09Gordon Corera?

  The McCarthy witch hunts.

• 26:10David McCloskey?

  Sort of McCarthy witch hunts. This is when you have the Rosenberg spy case, you know, Ethel and Julius Rosenberg are convicted of spying for the Soviets and then I think become the only Americans to be executed for espionage outside of wartime. But then, of course, the Red Scare kind of, it goes wild.

• 26:30Gordon Corera?

  Yeah.

• 26:31David McCloskey?

  And it loops in, ropes in people who.

• 26:35Gordon Corera?

  Hollywood people.

• 26:35David McCloskey?

  Hollywood people.

• 26:36Gordon Corera?

  Any Democrat.

• 26:37David McCloskey?

  Anyone who'd kind of, you know, spoken to a communist or been vaguely left wing. And so you can kind of see how Philby, looking at this from, from London, could kind of say, well, I'm being caught up in the same.

• 26:49Gordon Corera?

  Yeah.

• 26:50David McCloskey?

  The same witch hunt. MI6 could say the same thing of, you know, you're just sort of, you're tarring us with this, you know, this circumstantial case.

• 26:58Gordon Corera?

  Red scare.

• 26:58David McCloskey?

  It's red scare. And you guys are blowing this out of proportion, right?

• 27:02Gordon Corera?

  I think that's exactly right. The context is important because, of course, some of the pressure is coming from the Americans where there are these kind of witch hunts. And so Philby's defenders in MI6 are able to kind of go, look, you know, there are just all these wild accusations being thrown around in Washington and elsewhere about communists and people who knew communists. And, you know, it's, it's wild stuff. And this poor guy, Philby, being caught up in that and he's entirely innocent. He's a victim of a witch hunt. And that seems to be the line of MI6. And I think there's a bit of that. There's a bit of, he's one of us. You know, he can't be bad. It's the classic British establishment thing. We should mention Philby's biggest backer in MI6 at this time

• 27:47Gordon Corera?

  is his best friend in MI6. And it's a guy called Nicholas Elliot, who's going to be important for the story. Son of the Provost, the head of Eton, the British Establishment School. Nicholas Elliot is your classic establishment man. I mean, one person who knew him, who I knew, you know, said he was everything you would expect an Atonian to be.

• 28:06David McCloskey?

  What does that mean?

• 28:07Gordon Corera?

  I mean, I think kind of very erudite and smart and confident. Thin man, you know, round glasses, you know, look over them in a kind of Donish academic manner, but you still love telling dirty jokes. Like lots of the new generation of MI6 officers, he looked up to Philby. You know, I think it's really interesting. And, and he and others think Philby is kind of smart, charming guy who's been screwed over by the Americans and others. And that is their view.

• 28:40David McCloskey?

  And those knuckle draggers at MI5.

• 28:42Gordon Corera?

  Yeah, exactly. Those middle class types that, you know, middle class policemen at MI5. So immediately after the kind of big interrogation by Milmo, Philby goes around to dinner at Elliot's house. And actually, Philby says to Elliot, oh, you know, for Christ's sake, don't get yourselves involved in any of this. Whether that means he's trying to keep Elliot away, but whatever it is, they remain very, very close friends. And Elliot actually thinks eventually Kim's going to get back into the MI6, you know, we'll just let this blow over for a few years. He's so talented, eventually we'll bring him back.

• 29:14David McCloskey?

  But that is not going to be the end of the whole affair. So let's take a break. And when we come back, we'll look at how Kim Philby's involvement in the spy ring and the question of whether he is the third man goes public.

• 30:01David McCloskey?

  Well, welcome back. It's 1952 and Kim Philby has purchased a London black cab to drive around the city aimlessly and drunkenly. And he's kind of, he's, he's survived these interrogations, kind of, but he's still out of a job and really purposeless.

• 30:19Gordon Corera?

  Yeah, he is. And he floats around, you know, looking for work, looking for freelance journalism, kind of other things he might be able to do. It's a pretty dreary life. He borrows money from Nicholas Elliot, his friend at MI6, who helps out with school fees for the kids. He moves to Crowborough in Sussex, and this is partly paid for by his mother-in-law, by Aileen's mother, because, you know, they can't afford it otherwise. The garden is soon overgrown. Aileen, it's very interesting. We've talked a bit about Aileen in the past, some of the challenges she faces, including mental health challenges, drinking. Also, she realizes something is going wrong. I mean, he's lost his job at the Foreign Office.

• 31:04Gordon Corera?

  He's been recalled. She knows that there are suspicions around him. She doesn't know all the details, but she knows him better than anyone else. And you do start to wonder, is she beginning to see that it's plausible that he's abandoned and there's something wrong?

• 31:21David McCloskey?

  Because we should say, I mean, he hasn't brought her in on this at all.

• 31:24Gordon Corera?

  No, she doesn't know. I mean, but she may suspect. And I think this is the period where she may start to suspect.

• 31:31David McCloskey?

  But again, it's actually a very similar impulse to many of his MI6 colleagues, where you almost don't want to look it in the, look it in the eye.

• 31:41Gordon Corera?

  Well, for her, I mean, it would be awful. You know, I mean, they've got children, they've got, you know, kind of five kids. I mean, imagine if he is a traitor, what's she gonna do? I mean, it's a disaster for the family. But she starts to share some of her fears about him, including with Nicholas Elliot, this friend at MI6. And Nicholas Elliot says, no, it's nothing to worry about with Kim. You know, it's rubbish. There's nothing to these suspicions. She's drinking more. Her mental health is suffering again. She's staging these accidents as part of her kind of breakdown. Philby is having an affair with a woman in London. There's big rows at dinner parties, you know, she's, she does seem to be suspecting things. She's got a psychiatrist, and she tells her psychiatrist

• 32:24Gordon Corera?

  that she thinks Kim Philby, her husband, is trying to get her to commit suicide. This psychiatrist then tells MI5, which seems to be a bit of a, you know, break of confidence. And at one point, she dramatically calls Nicholas Elliot, and she says to Nicholas Elliot, Kim's gone to Russia, and he's left a note. And Elliot is like, what? You know, you can understand, because Elliot's his backer. He freaks out and he starts to, you know, put out alerts. Elliot then calls the house back, and Philby picks up the phone. You know, she's made it all up. I mean, Aileen's story is so sad, because she is right about her suspicions, but people don't believe her because she's got these mental health

• 33:06Gordon Corera?

  problems, and people attribute her suspicions to her mental health problems. And then the fact that her husband is treating her shabbily, and no one believes her, makes her mental health problems even worse. So it's a kind of desperate cycle for her, as she's kind of descending in these years amidst fear, suspicion, and breakdown. Philby himself is under surveillance, and he knows that. But of course, he knows how MI5 works. He's not in contact with his Soviet handlers, really, at this point. You know, he's kind of broken off.

• 33:40David McCloskey?

  I guess he has nothing much that would be useful to share, and it's, it's dangerous.

• 33:44Gordon Corera?

  And it's dangerous because he's under surveillance. So he feels a little bit abandoned, I think, although, you know, he's often, you know, later in life, he won't kind of admit that. Eventually, he gets word through Antony Blunt, another of the Cambridge spies, you know, that he's hard up. And through Blunt, they will get him £5,000 for Philby to kind of help him out. But it's a sign of how, how desperate they are. Meanwhile, Arthur Martin, our kind of middle-class MI5 officer, our mole hunting hero, I think in many ways, is still on him.

• 34:14David McCloskey?

  He doesn't give up.

• 34:15Gordon Corera?

  He doesn't give up, you know, which I think is something about the mentality of mole hunters, isn't it? Once they, you know, once they get someone in their sights, they don't give up, do they? They can become quite obsessive about it. And, you know, Arthur Martin will become an obsessive later in his career. At this point, I think he's on the right track. Later, he goes off the tracks, but here, he's, he's on it.

• 34:33David McCloskey?

  And we'll also be speaking with a former CIA officer and former mole hunter named Rolf Moet Larson about really the mechanics of how mole hunts work. We're doing that in an exclusive episode for club members. So we'll see if, we'll see if Rolf has lost his mind. But I find, I find this to be fascinating, because Martin is working away on the, on the trail slowly. And then in April of 1954, a KGB officer in Australia named Vladimir Petrov defects and reveals something that is exceptionally interesting. He says Burgess

• 35:13David McCloskey?

  and McLean, who had fled to Moscow, had been long-term penetration agents, which everyone knows. But then he says that they're tipped off by another person in the same mold, a so-called third man. So you have, from the horse's mouth, the existence of an on-the-loose third man, another penetration agent somewhere inside the British system.

• 35:40Gordon Corera?

  Yeah. And of course, that points at Philby. He's going to get questioned again by MI6. But again,

• 35:46David McCloskey?

  It's circumstantial still.

• 35:47Gordon Corera?

  It's circumstantial still. And the Americans are still on the case, because I think they are still obsessed by this, especially the FBI in Hoover, as well as, of course, Bill Harvey. And this is also a very interesting bit of the story, because it's the Americans who, who don't want Philby, along with Arthur Martin, to get away with it. And actually, they start at this point, 54, 55, to leak the name Philby in the context of the third man. And it's, it's so interesting. It's an American newspaper, not a British one, which first names Philby as potentially a spy and a third man. And that looks like it's J. Edgar Hoover of the FBI is doing. You know, it's, he's basically going, I'm

• 36:31Gordon Corera?

  gonna get this guy, and I'm gonna use the American media to turn up the heat on the Brits and name him. And, you know, journalists are now starting to turn up at his house and say, you know, are you the third man? Are you involved? You know, Aileen at a party drunk says, I know you're the third man. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because the third man also has this kind of fictional, you know, resonance because of Graham Greene.

• 36:55David McCloskey?

  Well, yeah, and it's, it's the title of a 1949 film, a phenomenal film.

• 37:00Gordon Corera?

  Yeah, one of the greats.

• 37:01David McCloskey?

  Which stars Orson Welles as the third man, set in Vienna. It is, I believe, the development of it was kind of interesting, wasn't it? Because it starts off as a, as a screenplay that's written by Graham Greene for the film, and then he later novelizes it. And Greene had been a colleague of Philby's.

• 37:22Gordon Corera?

  In MI6.

• 37:23David McCloskey?

  At MI6. And the third man of the title, the character Welles plays is, is named Harry Lime. And he's this kind of charming, roguish guy, you know, sort of Philby-esque guy.

• 37:37Gordon Corera?

  Harry Lime, Harry Philby? Remember, Kim's first name is Harry?

• 37:41David McCloskey?

  And it's, it's crazy, the timing, because the idea of a third man in the Philby context doesn't really come out until the mid 50s. And that film is from 1949.

• 37:54Gordon Corera?

  Yeah. And so you do have this question, which is kind of the fact and fiction merging, where you're like, did Graham Greene write a screenplay partly based on his relationship with Philby?

• 38:07David McCloskey?

  Did he kind of suspect?

• 38:08Gordon Corera?

  Yeah. Did he suspect of it, even? And there are, you know, we'll come back to Graham Greene later, because he's a very interesting character in Philby's story. But, you know, did, did he suspect Philby? So he creates him as a character in the third man. And then in real life, Philby gets called the third man, you know, because of the influence of the film, and it comes this kind of famous statement, after 1955, when the, the kind of whispers start about him. So it's kind of fact and fiction bleeding into each other in a really complicated way in this spy world.

• 38:37David McCloskey?

  Which, again, we had, we had a very interesting conversation with Tim Shipman, this sort of spy fiction aficionado. We have that conversation as part of our exclusive episodes around the series for club members, in which we sort of look at the kind of literary impact of Philby. But one of the things we talked about, which I find so fascinating, is we're talking about mole hunting. Arthur Martin would have never described it in the early 1950s as mole hunting. We only call it mole hunting because of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spots.

• 39:10Gordon Corera?

  John le Carré, which is based on Kim Philby.

• 39:13David McCloskey?

  On Kim Philby.

• 39:14Gordon Corera?

  It's a mad, it's a mad circular world. So, so the whispers are starting, you know, is Philby the third man? But then something happens, which outwardly looks terrible for Philby, but actually is a piece of great fortune. Philby himself says his strap hanging on the tube. So, you know, hanging, you know, holding on to a strap because the tube's busy. October 1955, as he's going out to meet someone, and he sees a copy of the Evening Standard newspaper. And he reads over the shoulder of someone else that an MP for Brixton in London, a member of parliament, has asked the Prime Minister whether he is going to continue to shield the dubious third man activities of Mr. Philby. So someone in

• 39:59Gordon Corera?

  parliament. Has raised Philby's name directly with the Prime Minister as being the third man who's being shielded. And what's important is he's done it in Parliament because you can't sue under English law. People may not know this in other countries, but if you say something in Parliament, you have privilege. So you can say something without being sued for libel.

• 40:24David McCloskey?

  Hmm.

• 40:25Gordon Corera?

  By one account, that MP later on will say, you know, people ask him, well, why did you do it? And he suspects that the information was planted on him, the question, by the CIA.

• 40:36David McCloskey?

  How would that have happened?

• 40:37Gordon Corera?

  I don't know, through some kind of cutout in London and someone going, you should ask this, you should, maybe you should pose this question to Parliament, you might find it interesting.

• 40:45David McCloskey?

  The dastardly work of J Edgar Hoover.

• 40:47Gordon Corera?

  Yeah. But now the press go absolutely nuts because Philby's named in the British press. You know, they're camped outside his mother's flat. He wants to speak out. He calls in his friend Nicholas Elliot. Elliot says, wait, because there's going to be a statement about it. And the Foreign Secretary, then Harold Macmillan, is going to make a statement in the House of Commons in November. Wait for that. That should be the moment to say something. And it's interesting because behind the scenes, there's a battle within government about what to say. The Chief of MI6 tells the Foreign Secretary, he should say, there was no evidence to show that Philby was responsible for warning Burgess and McLean, or that he had betrayed the interests of his country. There's just suspicions, circumstantial evidence.

• 41:30Gordon Corera?

  So MI6 are again pushing the idea to the Foreign Secretary, there's no evidence. Also, it doesn't make sense because, you know, Klaus Fuchs, you know, Philby knew about the Klaus Fuchs investigation and Fuchs got arrested, you know, so he can't possibly be bad, you know? And others in America were caught when Philby knew about them, so he can't be a spy. The Foreign Secretary, Macmillan at this time, really doesn't like spies very much. He's kind of a patrician, old school Tory. And it's quite funny, I think he sees them as just like kind of bothersome.

• 42:02David McCloskey?

  Yeah, this is frustrating. I wish this would go away.

• 42:05Gordon Corera?

  I wish this would go away.

• 42:06David McCloskey?

  Yeah.

• 42:07Gordon Corera?

  And I think he sees it as MI5 and MI6 having a feud.

• 42:10David McCloskey?

  Yeah.

• 42:11Gordon Corera?

  Which they are actually, over Philby. And he's like, these guys, you know, MI5 are on my back saying we should call him a spy, MI6 are saying, no, he's fine, just, you know, can we just kind of get rid of this? But based on the MI6 advice, he clears Philby in Parliament. A statement by the Foreign Secretary saying, there is no evidence that Kim Philby is the third man. We've looked into it, he is not, he is innocent. I mean, this is Hoover, whoever was behind it, having thought they could force the issue, have forced Philby's name into the open. But to some extent, it's backfired because Philby's now been cleared.

• 42:45David McCloskey?

  And then Philby makes a very interesting and a very wily decision because he then goes public himself. So I guess he could have just sat back and said, oh, my name, my name's cleared.

• 42:58Gordon Corera?

  Yeah.

• 42:59David McCloskey?

  Done.

• 43:00Gordon Corera?

  Low profile.

• 43:01David McCloskey?

  But then he invites journalists to come to his mother's flat in London. He's expecting maybe a dozen or so, but many more turn up. And you can, you can see this online, there's, there's video of this, of this conversation where for five minutes, he kind of sits there and essentially rebuts any evidence that he was ever a spy and says, denies everything, right?

• 43:25Gordon Corera?

  It's an amazing video. I mean, it is, as a piece of archive, to be able to watch Philby actually defend himself and speak out, you get a sense of the man from this video in a really, really interesting way. You see, you know, he's kind of very, there's not much of a stammer, you know, his hair's a little bit sort of brill creamed, a little bit out of place, but he's fundamentally got a kind of charm, I think. You can see, you can see an element of the Philby charm to him.

• 43:54David McCloskey?

  Poise.

• 43:55Gordon Corera?

  Poise. He doesn't come across as like posh or arrogant.

• 43:59David McCloskey?

  No.

• 44:00Gordon Corera?

  He comes across as kind of confident, quite low key. It's interesting, he's very much described as a Foreign Office diplomat because that's what people, we should say, people at this time all think he's a diplomat. No one has any idea he works for MI6. They all think he was a diplomat. And yeah, there's these questions, were you in fact the third man? No, I was not. Do you think there was one? No comment. Mr. Macmillan said you had communist associations. Is that why you were asked to resign? I was asked to resign from the Foreign Office because of an imprudent association with Burgess and the result of his disappearance. So, you know, he, he kind of, he's worked out how to answer the questions. Would you still regard Burgess, who lived with you for a while in Washington, as a friend of yours? How do you feel about him now? I consider his action deplorable.

• 44:45Gordon Corera?

  On the subject of friendship, I'd prefer to say as little as possible because it's very complicated. Oh, yes. That's a very true statement.

• 44:54David McCloskey?

  It is, that is a very true statement. And yeah, again, that, that sort of, the sense of his nerve and his self-control, which again is kind of astounding for a guy who is living such a duplicitous life and who's drunk all the time.

• 45:08Gordon Corera?

  And who's drunk all the time and who's never been before TV cameras before.

• 45:11David McCloskey?

  Right.

• 45:12Gordon Corera?

  But you can do it. And so there's a really interesting fact, it is a kind of masterclass in deception and therefore in acting.

• 45:20David McCloskey?

  In acting.

• 45:21Gordon Corera?

  In acting. And it's so good that the husband of Judi Dench, who's an actor himself, and Judi Dench, of course, plays M in the James Bond films, but her husband actually tells young actors to watch this video of Philby because he's like, that is how you do it. That has, that is a performance. I mean, it is that good. I just think, you know, it's fascinating as a study of kind of duplicity, basically.

• 45:46David McCloskey?

  Yeah. And then of course, I guess another running theme in the story is sherry. He serves, he serves sherry to the assemble, and some beer, to the assembled journalists.

• 45:56Gordon Corera?

  I know, I never, I mean, I went to so many press conferences in my time as a journalist, I never got beer and sherry. I mean, served by a guy who's just been accused of being a spy and a traitor.

• 46:06David McCloskey?

  Different times in the 50s.

• 46:07Gordon Corera?

  Different times in the 50s. He invites this MP to repeat the allegation outside of Parliament. So that's part of the point.

• 46:16David McCloskey?

  So it wouldn't be under privilege and therefore he could sue him.

• 46:18Gordon Corera?

  Exactly. And that's almost the point of the press conference is to say, you know, I'm innocent, you know, say it again, outside of Parliament, so I can sue you. And of course, the MP can see that he's just been cleared by the Foreign Secretary, Philby, so he backs down, you know? He goes, I'm really sorry, I'm not going to repeat it, I apologize. So suddenly, Philby, having been under this huge pressure, can now portray himself as having been smeared as part of the Red Scare. And it's just his friendship with some old friends from Cambridge being used against him to smear him as a kind of spy. He's suddenly got a defence.

• 46:56David McCloskey?

  Well, and then the next day, friends from MI6 called to congratulate him.

• 47:01Gordon Corera?

  Yeah.

• 47:02David McCloskey?

  And, and a few months later, he's back speaking again with Nicholas Elliot.

• 47:06Gordon Corera?

  Yeah, at MI6. So Nicholas Elliot, you know, calls up and he says, can we talk? And Philby goes, something unpleasant again. And Elliot says, hmm, maybe just the opposite. Because Philby's now kind of in the clear. His old chums, like Nicholas Elliot, MI6, feel sorry for him. You know, they know he's been hard up, five children. And so, you know, there's a note in the archives, it says, the head of MI6 considered it bad security for a former member of the Secret Service to be destitute. And bearing in mind that an injustice might have been done to him, agreed to give him help in finding a journalistic appointment.

• 47:44Gordon Corera?

  So they approached the editor of the Observer newspaper and they, they say, would you take Philby on? Because of course he'd been a journalist in the 30s. But not only is he going to be a journalist, he's also going to be back on the salaried books of MI6. I mean, admittedly, this time more as their agent.

• 48:04David McCloskey?

  Right.

• 48:05Gordon Corera?

  Rather than, rather than a kind of officer, running agents, but they're going to be paying him as well. Now, all of this looks like it's basically a thank you from a friend. Now, there's, you know, there's a kind of theory, which is, are they going to, you know, deuce, is it a kind of clever master plan by those who suspect he really is a KGB spy? And they're going to give him something useful to do with the Observer and then hope that then that forces the Russians to reconnect with him and then they can find him and then they can prosecute him, but I don't know.

• 48:33David McCloskey?

  Do you buy that? That seems overly elaborate to me.

• 48:36Gordon Corera?

  And, and actually, now that some of the material has come in the, out in the archives, just in the last year or two, actually, it, it really does look like MI6 are basically going, we want to help him out.

• 48:45David McCloskey?

  Yeah.

• 48:46Gordon Corera?

  We want to help this guy out. So let's give him a, a job as a journalist.

• 48:49David McCloskey?

  And they're, they're not wrong that it is a, a security risk to have a totally unemployed, kind of penniless former officer just wandering about.

• 49:02Gordon Corera?

  Yeah, it's a security risk.

• 49:03David McCloskey?

  Right.

• 49:04Gordon Corera?

  And it just, it's just not what you do to, to our chaps.

• 49:06David McCloskey?

  Well, he's.

• 49:07Gordon Corera?

  Public school boy.

• 49:08David McCloskey?

  Public school boy. Went to Cambridge.

• 49:10Gordon Corera?

  Yeah.

• 49:11David McCloskey?

  I mean, one of us, why, you can't let this guy drive around in his black cab, his decommissioned black cab for the rest of his days.

• 49:19Gordon Corera?

  That's right. And so there, Philby now has a new lease of life, thanks to MI6. They're going to find a use for him, he's going to go under journalistic cover, and the place he's going to go at the most interesting time is the Middle East and to Beirut. And there, the final confrontation with him and MI6 will come. So do join us next time for that next installment of the Philby story. But of course, a reminder that you can hear it now if you're a declassified club member and you can hear all these great bonus episodes that we've got, linked to the Philby series. So do join at therestisclassified.com. But otherwise, we'll see you next time.

• 49:58David McCloskey?

  We'll see you next time.

• 50:08Speaker 04

  Hello, Goalhanger History listeners. This is Marina Hyde and Richard Osman from The Rest is Entertainment.

• 50:13Speaker 05

  Hello, everybody. Every Thursday and Friday, we are reacting to the pop culture phenomenon that is The Celebrity Traitors. We'll be on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. And Marina and I are digging into all the castle's twists and turns, giving our expert opinion on what should happen next.

• 50:27Speaker 04

  Now, which historical figure do we think would be the greatest traitor?

• 50:31Speaker 05

  It's tempting to think of an actual traitor.

• 50:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:34Speaker 05

  A Guy Fawkes or a Kim Philby, but then all of those are traitors who got caught.

• 50:38Speaker 04

  Philby had a great run though.

• 50:40Speaker 05

  He did have a great run.

• 50:41Speaker 04

  I think he could probably see off, you know, Joanne.

• 50:43Speaker 05

  Yes, maybe. And probably is sort of where he ended up in Moscow is probably roughly like where the contestants have to spend every night as well.

• 50:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:51Speaker 05

  So maybe there's, there's some sort of equivalence. So if you're watching Celebrity Traitors, don't forget to tune into our reaction episodes every Thursday and Friday night at 10pm.

• 50:59Speaker 04

  Find us on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.