Pod Insights Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel Am I Letting My Jealousy Ruin This? About this episode A divorced woman calls Esther to untangle a new love that brings both exhilaration and heartache. She is in a relationship with a married man whose marriage is ethically non-monogamous and finds herself caught between desire, jealousy and the longing to feel chosen. As the conversation unfolds, buried childhood wounds, attachment patterns, and an inherited inner critic rise to the surface. They explore how old stories shape present love and what it might mean to rewrite the story she tells herself about love.
Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected] .
Esther is returning to SXSW on March 14th for a special live episode of Where Should We Begin. Visit http://voxmedia.com/sxsw to learn more and preregister.
Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Speaker 00 Hi, Stare. I'm 41 years old and I'm calling with a personally heart-wrenching case of should I stay or should I go? In regard to a man I've been seeing for almost two years. He and I met on a casual dating app and went into it very casually. I learned that he is married and that he and his wife were or are no longer sexual or romantic in that way, but they are living together, share a bed. They co-parent an eight-year-old boy, just like I do with my ex-husband, with whom I
0:45 Speaker 00 do not share a bed. And she is very open and encouraging of all of this. And never in one million years would I have seen myself making my way into this kind of a dynamic. But this gentleman and I have very strong feelings for each other. And he and I go on dates every week to two weeks. And they're absolutely incredible from our chemistry as friends and humans, not to mention that I'm having the best sex of my life, like, full stop.
1:26 Speaker 00 And he is emotionally secure and available to me in a way that I've frankly never had in 41 years. I also have been stuck in these endless questions all the time because there's a big part of me that does love being single. Like, when I first got divorced, I'll never forget that feeling of, I can do what I want. I can be who I want to be. And yet, I crave that idea of stability in marriage again.
2:06 Speaker 00 And it's this constant push and pull. And I don't even know if I would want to be married to him. And yet it does not prevent some real pain, some real pain that I feel around feeling like just jealous, you know, of he and his wife or partner who is lovely.
2:33 Speaker 00 I would just so, so appreciate and love the chance to talk through this with you. So thank you so much for listening.
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4:20 Speaker 00 I think what's very strange to me about all of this that I mentioned is that I would never have imagined myself getting sort of entangled in something like this. I've always, when I've been on the apps and seen these ethically non-monogamous people, you know, like I always don't swipe on those people because it seems complicated. And something I don't want to get caught up in. And he did not list himself that way, but he was very honest when we met. And they're not sexual, right? So he's sexually monogamous with me and that has been how my brain has been able to sort of make this work, right?
5:02 Esther Perel? Meaning how, tell me how you put the puzzle together?
5:07 Speaker 00 So I feel like there's something special that we have together and I realize that that could very much be the case with or without him having sex with other people. But it protects some element of it for me where I feel like he is committed to me, you know? And sometimes I think it's so silly because he's also married and he's sleeping in the same bed with his wife. But they are not sexual.
5:42 Esther Perel? So he has family monogamy with her and sexual monogamy with you?
5:47 Speaker 00 Yes.
5:48 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm.
5:49 Speaker 00 Yes. And it's tied up in a lot. It's tied up in like, I think jealous, there's a, just a raw jealousy that I think a lot of people in these relationships with multiple parties happens to them, but then there's also this...
6:07 Esther Perel? But your jealousy is about the monogamy of his family? That they come first? That you cannot enter into that space? That, tell me a little bit what the arrangement is so far and what is the jealousy? Because it can be about something very precise, right?
6:28 Speaker 00 So I very much relate to his family coming first. So I also have an eight year old and divorced. And it's funny because the last person I dated didn't have children. And he totally did not understand, like, my kid comes above all else. So that I very much relate to. I get jealous thinking of them sleeping in the same bed, he and his wife.
6:53 Esther Perel? Okay, so that's.
6:55 Speaker 00 Yeah, and also their general family life because I don't have it. And it's not that I don't have it with him, but it's that I don't have it, you know.
7:10 Speaker 00 So, yeah.
7:14 Esther Perel? So when I see the beauty of his family, it reminds me of the family that I no longer have.
7:26 Speaker 00 Sorry.
7:26 Esther Perel? No, nothing to apologize for.
7:30 Speaker 00 That part is very raw for me. And this whole side that is there and gets tied up in what is really a beautiful thing in many ways.
7:50 Esther Perel? What is your arrangement with the father of your child?
7:55 Speaker 00 We are good friends. Actually, we were friends for many years and then we got married, had a child and very quickly had our first fight that became the reason we got divorced.
8:11 Esther Perel? Which was? You made that one fight stand out so special that I couldn't resist being curious about.
8:19 Speaker 00 It was over sleep training with our son and it was something very small. But I realized I had never sort of stood ground. And had been contorting myself, honestly, to prevent any and all conflict in our relationship. You know, there had never been conflict. And I sort of just stood my ground and there was a complete unraveling. And he wanted a divorce. And it was so crazy. But we both instantly flipped into we're putting our son first. And thankfully, my ex husband had the context of his parents having divorced when he was young.
9:04 Speaker 00 And did a really good job of putting him first. Um, it's very fluid, like our son has never known anything different. And I'm very proud of that.
9:19 Speaker 00 But it's also another one of these things where I do like spending Christmas with my son and his dad. And sometimes when I play out this idea, well, what if I were with somebody full time? Monogamous again, that would be hard, right? Or I mean, some people might not like that.
9:40 Esther Perel? Would it be fair to say when I am with the father of my child and my son? And we are in family mode, there is no jealousy.
9:56 Esther Perel? When I'm alone, then I'm start to think about the family that my partner has. And then I start to think that is what I miss because in fact you do have a family life.
10:13 Speaker 00 I I don't feel that because there is some suppressed like emotional pain around my divorce that I just don't surface. And yeah, I I I feel like it's other people's intimacy is just hard for me because I'm not intimate with anybody. So.
10:40 Speaker 00 I'm sorry.
10:43 Speaker 00 The tears just boom.
10:44 Esther Perel? Let them flow, let them flow, let them stream down.
10:50 Esther Perel? I'm not intimate with anybody.
10:55 Speaker 00 Yeah, I have a very small, like, extended family where my dad, I'm estranged from my dad, which was a complicated um situation. He was emotionally abusive to our family. My sister and I growing up and um have a good relationship with my mom, but it has its limits.
11:20 Esther Perel? Both daughters are estranged from him?
11:23 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
11:24 Esther Perel? For how long?
11:28 Speaker 00 Eight years, right before my son was born, right after I got married. That was a pretty crazy year, but he he basically blew up our lives. He and my mom had been married for forty years and he came home one day and said I want a divorce and he emptied out their bank accounts and left her with nothing. We found out he'd been doing all these horrible things, leading a double life, basically um. And in hindsight, I think he was really kind of a sociopath. I don't think he had empathy um and I spent my whole life trying to get his approval, you know, it was very much the perfect
12:11 Speaker 00 type A child um and my sister was the older rebellious one, who he treated worse, you know, but he played us off each other. It was just a really tough childhood. I mean, not as tough as a lot of people's, but unpacking it as an adult, it um was very eye-opening to me. I learned, like, I learned about attachment theory for the first time a couple of years ago and I was like, no. I thought I was over all that.
12:52 Speaker 00 It's here.
12:55 Esther Perel? If your, what do you call him, partner, boyfriend, lover?
13:00 Speaker 00 Lover. We call each other lovers.
13:03 Esther Perel? Okay. If your lover heard you say, I am not intimate with anyone, how would he respond?
13:14 Speaker 00 He would probably put his hand on his heart and it would make him sad. Because you're right, I am intimate with him. He's the only person that I really am intimate with.
13:25 Esther Perel? Beyond sexuality?
13:28 Speaker 00 Yeah.
13:30 Speaker 00 He's the first man that I've ever had
13:35 Speaker 00 difficult feelings around that has been able to sustain it where it hasn't blown up because I had a meltdown or challenged something that was going on or made things difficult.
13:53 Esther Perel? For example?
13:58 Speaker 00 Well, this situation has been very hard for me, like
14:03 Speaker 00 grappling with these feelings of jealousy of with his wife and I feel like I will have these sort of outbursts, you know, and I don't necessarily get angry, but I, I do unravel and I'm like, I can't handle this. And sometimes I do contort it into something like you don't even want me anyway. And, you know, just blow up and I assume that it's gone and he's gone. Because that's how it's gone in my relationships and I'm very conscious of that with the men in my life. And he just keeps coming back for more like a golden retriever.
14:47 Speaker 00 He's just there, you know, and he's like,
14:51 Speaker 00 that must be so hard. And so it makes it like in many ways so wonderful, right?
14:59 Speaker 00 I feel like it's so good for me to be with somebody that.
15:06 Esther Perel? Allows me to experience jealousy. Yes. Even envy, because one is for what we had and have lost, and the other one is for what we've never had, or not never, but what we don't have.
15:24 Esther Perel? But also experience the insecurity, that it's not what you have, it's how it instantly connects to what I feel I don't have.
15:39 Esther Perel? And so because I don't have one thing, I experience it as, "Well, then I better have nothing."
15:47 Esther Perel? Because if I can turn it into, "I'll be the one to set this up to end," then at least I feel a little bit more in control.
15:57 Esther Perel? I don't feel in control over the relationship as it is, but I can be in control over the dissolution of the relationship. And he doesn't let you play with that. No. Okay. And you have fixated on, "They share a bed, they share a bed, they share a bed." And that becomes that image that you interpret as, "They have intimacy, they have something I don't have." You can see how you put the pieces of your puzzle together. Talk to me about what is their arrangement and who are you for them? You're telling me who he is for you. I don't know much about her.
16:39 Esther Perel? I don't know if your children have ever met. I don't know if this is a marriage also, not just a marriage, a coming together, more accurately, of two people or of two units. What is the arrangement? What is your relational arrangement at this point? And is it by default or is it actually by design?
17:02 Speaker 00 So there was no crossing for quite a while, you know, we met quite casually through this app and I don't think either of us was expecting the level of connection that we developed.
17:18 Esther Perel? And he presented himself as?
17:21 Speaker 00 As married and described a situation that is he and his wife are wonderful partners and very good friends. They lost the sexual spark at some point and decided to stay together and co-parent and raise their child in their home.
17:48 Esther Perel? And both of them have a separate erotic life.
17:53 Speaker 00 She didn't for some time, it it sounded like, but now she does and
18:00 Speaker 00 I had not met her for a long time. And eventually she said she wanted to meet me and so we had coffee together.
18:09 Esther Perel? All three or all two?
18:11 Speaker 00 Just me and her. And I was like, if this is not progress against my anxious attachment style, I don't know what is.
18:22 Speaker 00 I I had this whole idea of her in my mind, you know, I've done this whole the ways that she's different than me and she's like the perfect homemaker and I'm not and you know, all this stuff and instantly was just disarmed by her. She's also totally warm and genuine and cool and I could see that everything was very honestly, she was like, this is so great, like he's in such a great mood all the time. He is crazy about you. We're so happy to have you in our lives.
19:04 Speaker 00 I went to their holiday party like a month or two ago, which was hard.
19:11 Speaker 00 But also, one, this other weird part of me is like, what if like I I was just a part of this fabric? Like, maybe this did, I mean, do I have this in me to be one of these crazy people that, I shouldn't say crazy people, like securely attached people that can flex in relationships? Um, and she was so happy to have me there, you know? So I don't, you know, he doesn't talk about their relationship. I think he's very, you know, protective of that, and I appreciate that. And I don't know what the future holds in store for them.
19:54 Speaker 00 But it's like the jealousy, the raw jealousy at insecurity it brings out is so present.
20:14 Esther Perel? We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.
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22:51 Esther Perel? May I meet the part of you that speaks that insecurity? How does it relate to you? How does it tell its story? How does it warn you? How does it turn opportunity into threat? Tell me what it says and what it is trying supposedly to preempt for you. Imagine it's sitting right next to you. So it's not inside of you. It's actually on the chair next to you. Jealousy. I don't know. Do you have a name for it sometimes?
23:39 Speaker 00 I don't have a name for it.
23:43 Speaker 00 The jealousy is so hard to pinpoint.
23:46 Esther Perel? Okay, so you enter into me.
23:52 Speaker 00 And I feel under threat. I am in like fight or flight.
23:59 Esther Perel? Um, all right, hold on one moment, because you're still talking to me.
24:05 Esther Perel? Turn around and pick something, any object, that you can place to represent jealousy. Just look on your shelves and then just bring it toward you.
24:20 Speaker 00 Like physically bring it?
24:23 Esther Perel? Yeah, go get it.
24:29 Esther Perel? All right, can you show me?
24:32 Speaker 00 Okay, I chose my Lego lucky cat.
24:34 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm, all right. And the reason you represent my jealousy is because...
24:44 Esther Perel? Anything, any connection?
24:46 Speaker 00 No, it just felt like I just was drawn to it for some reason.
24:49 Esther Perel? All right.
24:49 Speaker 00 We're gonna make it lucky.
24:50 Esther Perel? Okay.
24:51 Speaker 00 Maybe it'll be memorable that way. I thought, it's like if I need a mental talisman.
24:59 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, all right. You don't have to look at me, but I want you to talk to, actually, it's less you talking to the jealousy first. It's about listening how the jealousy speaks to you, how it feels you, what it does, what it tries to preempt for you, what threats it predicts, what...
25:25 Speaker 00 Yeah.
25:27 Esther Perel? Oh, you know that part so well.
25:31 Speaker 00 I'm thinking about it right now and if I'm talking to my jealousy right now, it's.
25:40 Esther Perel? Or your jealousy is talking to you.
25:43 Speaker 00 The jealousy talks to me, yeah.
25:45 Esther Perel? What does it say?
25:47 Speaker 00 It's very mean. It's very mean.
25:54 Speaker 00 It tells me that I am number two and that I'll never be someone's number one and
26:06 Speaker 00 that I should get out while I'm ahead.
26:10 Speaker 00 But it also tells me that that's like very powerful. That's what I deserve and that is heartbreaking to me, you know.
26:23 Esther Perel? Deserve as in you're not good enough to be? It it starts to attack and erode your sense of self-worth.
26:33 Speaker 00 Yes.
26:36 Speaker 00 And that is what I have been primed for, you know, like that was my dad's uncanny ability to come in. Any moment, I started to feel good about myself and take me down.
26:55 Speaker 00 Which honestly comes up for me, Esther, like I think this negative self-talk, this like when I'm being really mean to myself, I can almost hear him.
27:10 Speaker 00 And then I think I don't want to let him win, you know, like this is not serving me in any way.
27:17 Esther Perel? Who the hell do you think you are?
27:21 Esther Perel? That kind of berating?
27:25 Speaker 00 For some reason, it's standing out to me right now, this thing he said to me one time.
27:31 Speaker 00 When I was a teenager, he told me I was the last person anyone ever wanted to see walk into a room.
27:39 Speaker 00 And I sometimes feel like I just walk around feeling like. And I. I'm such a. Otherwise intelligent person. That I can conceptually understand so much. You know, I mean, I I've I probably would win an award for the number of hours of Pema Shodron talks I've listened to.
28:05 Speaker 00 But don't ask me to practice self compassion, okay? It's like.
28:11 Speaker 00 I.
28:13 Speaker 00 It's. Powerful, it's like feels it's in my body, you know? And so then you go like, am I fighting something that I?
28:27 Speaker 00 I'm never gonna be, or am I making it too hard for myself by trying to do this work?
28:35 Esther Perel? So you know, I had a. A wicked thought. May I just?
28:41 Speaker 00 Please.
28:41 Esther Perel? Share it with you. Cause everything is kind of. Most together. Are you still holding it in your hand, jealousy? Good. Keep holding it. You see. In a model of plural love. Primary or secondary. Doesn't necessarily carry the same meaning.
29:04 Esther Perel? Primary worth more. Secondary worth less. It's not a rating system.
29:12 Esther Perel? It's an organizational structural idea.
29:17 Esther Perel? With your dad, interestingly, you were number one. In fact, your sister was number one. On the attack line. Your experience with number one hasn't been particularly good.
29:33 Esther Perel? You were his number one, both of you. And he was firing away. You know, estrangement is a drastic, radical decision. Eight years, so we can't go into the details of that. But it doesn't happen out of nothing. So you have been number one. Your idea of this fairy tale that the number one is an elevated state is actually not what has been your life experience.
30:10 Esther Perel? There is a way of thinking about relationships that is organized around exclusiveness. And then you demarcate what makes this relationship by what it doesn't allow, by what it doesn't allow in. It excludes the other stuff, and that's what defines it. And so then you are the only one.
30:40 Esther Perel? And then there is another way of thinking about relationships that involves specialness, not exclusiveness, but specialness. And in that one, you're never the only one necessarily, but whatever you are is special in its own way. So you go to this party and these people receive you. You may not like the arrangement.
31:05 Esther Perel? You may say, "I don't like complicated setups" or multiple setups. That's design. And then you say, "That's not for me." But then it doesn't come from a place of self-loading, of being in this relationship is proof
31:26 Esther Perel? that I will not be claimed, that nobody will choose me as their first, as their one and only, and that it is because I'm the last person people want to see walk into the room. So there's a kind of a mixing of two stories here. One that was indeed exclusive.
31:48 Esther Perel? But vicious and one that is special. But somehow activates this notion. That if I'm not the only one, if I'm not the primary one. It's not because we have something else. That ties us together. It's because. You don't want to do that with me.
32:13 Speaker 00 Yes.
32:15 Esther Perel? Is that a fair description?
32:16 Speaker 00 It really is. And it's a story that is not reflected really in. The situation, you know, like.
32:29 Speaker 00 I mentioned this in my message that I don't even know if we would be right together as being married. Or that's not what I even fantasize about, really. It's weird. I mean, he would be a wonderful partner and husband, absolutely, but. It's more just this ambiguous. Here's a reason to feel bad.
32:59 Speaker 00 But then I, there's so many great things about it, like. That I've mentioned to you from a. Emotional standpoint of things I've been able to work through. And then also just the joy of. Developing. Cemented to see with somebody that is also not laden with all of the rest of life. And.
33:27 Speaker 00 It's funny because I've tried to talk about this to some married friends. They'll be like, wow, that is. You've got to get out of that, like run, don't walk, like you must be miserable half the time. And like, this is the recipe for disaster. And then I'm like, well, how is marriage going? Because marriage is really hard too, you know?
33:49 Esther Perel? And you gotta get out of what? What is being reinforced? That indeed you're a side gig?
33:59 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think that's how they frame it. And from the outside, I can kind of see that, but that's not how he makes me feel.
34:12 Speaker 00 Or frankly, how she makes me feel, his wife. I feel like they wanna bring me into their fold, you know? And he makes me feel very special.
34:25 Speaker 00 He's the first man I've ever been with that is very comfortable, just like openly complimenting me in this way that is so disarming to me, you know, we'll just be kissing or something and he'll sit back and be like, you are so beautiful. And
34:49 Speaker 00 I don't know what to do with it. And I realized I wasn't getting that before from other people and.
34:58 Esther Perel? Well, what you do with that is first and foremost, you savor it.
35:03 Speaker 00 Yeah.
35:04 Esther Perel? Then you decide, how important is this? It's an important experience for me to have in a relationship. It doesn't define a decision.
35:16 Speaker 00 Yes.
35:17 Esther Perel? Okay, my question to you is, do you feel like you need to make a decision? Or do you feel that other people are urging you to make a decision?
35:27 Esther Perel? Because you started out by saying, you know, shall I stay or shall I go? And I'm listening to you telling me I'm caught between two stories, two ways to interpret my reality.
35:40 Speaker 00 That's it.
35:41 Esther Perel? In one version, I experience myself as
35:47 Esther Perel? basically I'm experimenting with a very different kind of relational arrangement. It is an ethically non-monogamous or polyamorous arrangement. It's new. It does involve jealousy, by the way. That's okay.
36:05 Esther Perel? It is also part of the erotic charge that there is a sense of where am I, where do I fit in, et cetera. So the goal is not to avoid any jealousy. The goal is to learn to live with it.
36:21 Speaker 00 Yeah.
36:22 Esther Perel? Yeah. The other narrative is I've been exclusive. I've actually been many times a number one and my main experiences around that have been not particularly kind.
36:40 Esther Perel? Which doesn't mean that therefore an exclusive relationship is by itself compromised, but there are two narratives here.
36:50 Esther Perel? And my question to you is, do you feel an urgency to make a decision? Or do you feel that the people around you are urging you to make a decision? Or that there is a sense that you're being naive? You're being credulous, you're gonna get hurt? What's the context? Who, you know, where, who, where's the Greek chorus here?
37:13 Speaker 00 Yeah. It's almost like it's these like, you know, every once in a while, I will have a pretty significant meltdown around this. And think, I can't do this anymore, like this, these feelings are too hard. And what's really funny is that the small circle of people I've opened up to about this, who were in monogamous relationships, when I first went down this path, were like, get out. And now multiple couples have opened up their marriages. And suddenly they're like, go get it, you're living the dream.
37:53 Speaker 00 It's so...
37:55 Esther Perel? Yeah, but they don't know the nightmare. And the nightmare is that by putting myself in a situation where I experience the need to prove myself, the need to make myself be more wanted, the feeling that I am competing with another reality that is better than mine, throws me right back into my relationship with my dad, in which I hear all these etched inside my body sentences of every time I try to, what did you say, I win his love? Or be approved by him? It only made me feel worse about myself.
38:37 Esther Perel? Because the whole thing was predicated on it not being possible.
38:41 Speaker 00 Yeah.
38:42 Esther Perel? He needed me to be one down.
38:44 Speaker 00 Yes.
38:46 Esther Perel? So I have a relationship now that evokes that for me.
38:52 Speaker 00 Yeah, how are they all do?
38:54 Esther Perel? They all do. Okay, so it doesn't even matter which boundary system you're living in, or which identity system you're living in. This, at some point, the question of, am I worthy? Will I be replaced? Would you notice if I need you?
39:17 Esther Perel? Would you be there if I need you?
39:20 Speaker 00 Can you take it if I am messy? You know? I use this example, like my ex-boyfriend I dated for three years. And I had, he never was with me when I didn't have shaved legs.
39:39 Speaker 00 I told somebody that recently and they were like, what? But I'm like, that is something I learned from my mother and the way that my dad
39:49 Speaker 00 commented on our appearance, you know, my whole life, to be, to keep it together, you know?
39:57 Esther Perel? So what does messy mean? Afraid?
40:03 Speaker 00 Afraid, like angry, like showing emotions that they don't want to hear, that men don't want to hear.
40:11 Esther Perel? And you get angry when you're afraid? The more you're afraid they would leave, the more you kick them out?
40:18 Speaker 00 Mm-hmm.
40:22 Esther Perel? And you think that when I'm afraid I'm gonna scare them, they're gonna think I'm impossible to be with?
40:28 Speaker 00 Yeah.
40:29 Esther Perel? I'm thinking out loud, I need you to.
40:32 Speaker 00 Yeah, that I, you know, get, if I get angry or, you know, I felt like this gentleman that I'd been seeing, I introduced him to a friend of mine and I thought that they were being sort of flirtatious with each other. And I am super tuned into that and it actually makes me mental. And I.
40:57 Speaker 00 Melted down about it, you know, and I thought this is the end because I don't get angry at men like I don't. I've it's very difficult for me to conjure that and so when I melted down about that, I thought. That's the end of that.
41:15 Esther Perel? That's the end of that, meaning he's not gonna wanna be with somebody who flares up like this, who loses her shit.
41:22 Speaker 00 Yes.
41:23 Esther Perel? Who is so insecure, who sees the slightest thing and starts to turn it into a whole saga.
41:32 Speaker 00 Yeah. And that night I was so elevated, like.
41:37 Esther Perel? How bad does it get?
41:40 Speaker 00 The jealousy thing, when I experience that, if I see flirtation.
41:46 Esther Perel? It's a green eyed monster.
41:47 Speaker 00 It is a monster.
41:48 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
41:49 Speaker 00 In in real life, if I see it, if I see flirtation, it is a monster and. It's crazy. It feels like betrayal, it's threat, you know? And he was like, that was absolutely not my intent, but I'm so sorry.
42:08 Esther Perel? And what does it say to you at that moment? When it sees the flirtation?
42:15 Speaker 00 It is says you should be angry at this guy because he is not prioritizing you and he.
42:25 Speaker 00 Will, you know, fall at the first sign of female attention that he gets, you know?
42:33 Esther Perel? And then?
42:34 Speaker 00 And then, what are you, you know?
42:40 Speaker 00 You're just like any other woman in the room to him.
42:44 Speaker 00 Also, like with it, it's like also fighting me like, why are you feel, why are you doing this? Like, you're thinking so small, like. Some women would find it hot that their man could flirt like this and that. Other women were attracted to him and they would have fun with it. So. Not only are you just like all these other women in the room, like you're worse because you can't. Roll with this and give him a fucking break.
43:17 Speaker 00 Because he's a nice person and it's not intentional. Um, but it feels like he's stabbing me in the heart. Like, it is so raw. It's so powerful.
43:34 Esther Perel? We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.
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45:39 Esther Perel? And is there a connection between the rawness of feeling that bereft and enraged? And how much you tried to shave your legs at home? How much you used femininity to call attention? How much you worked on appearance? And appearance? And appearance as in pleasing dad?
46:12 Speaker 00 Yes.
46:15 Esther Perel? And emulating mom or doing the opposite?
46:20 Speaker 00 I had my moments. It was weird because I also was like a huge feminist when I was younger, thanks to my sister and had all these... I was very entrepreneurial and ambitious, which was not like my mom. It was more like my dad, who was an entrepreneur. But the need for approval and how I reacted to men in authority position to me was like the constant. And I was very in tune with all the little...
46:56 Esther Perel? How to please, how to seduce?
46:58 Speaker 00 Yes.
46:59 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm.
47:00 Speaker 00 Yes.
47:01 Esther Perel? And so when you see the flirting on the other side, you are competing with her?
47:11 Speaker 00 Yes, I'm competing with her and...
47:15 Esther Perel? Her being the other woman?
47:16 Speaker 00 Yeah.
47:18 Esther Perel? And at home, did you look down to your mom? As in, she has no strength, no power, no seductive cachet. I can do better. I belong to the group of the people who are on top. I identify with the men. I'm the entrepreneur too. I can best them at their own game.
47:43 Speaker 00 Ah, that's an interesting thing. I. It was very complicated because we felt so bad for my mom. Because he preyed on her too, but.
47:56 Esther Perel? We didn't wanna be like her.
47:58 Speaker 00 No, and he was always in my ear whispering that I was his favorite, like was telling me that. And so. The things he put down, I mean, she was a stay-at-home mom. So. She was not gonna go out and learn languages and get a full ride to college and, you know.
48:22 Esther Perel? Which you did.
48:23 Speaker 00 Mm-hmm.
48:24 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm.
48:25 Speaker 00 You know, that still was not enough. Shocker.
48:31 Esther Perel? Not, not, nothing will, that is, it's not meant to ever reach the criteria. But you feel bad for mom. You notice the weakness of mom, her despondency. But you suddenly also know, I don't wanna be like mom. I don't identify with mom, so I identify with him. And so I internalize his voices inside of me. The good and the bad. And, you know, you've done enough in, in our work to know that, um, this is, this is a clusterfuck. Right? And. A part of you then says, I'm gonna best him at his game. I'm gonna become the best seductress.
49:15 Esther Perel? That's where the number one comes in. I'm gonna be better than all those other women, because to be a number one, you need to compete against somebody. You don't compete against the man. The woman is the, the pivot of this type of triangular. Dynamic. And they need to be women that are more powerful, so that they keep pushing you to do more, more, more. And they need to be women who are weaker. This is the language of this kind of. Dynamic. It's actually very unnuanced, for that matter. It has so many other aspects to each person, but everybody becomes just either top or bottom.
49:51 Speaker 00 Yes.
49:52 Esther Perel? Do you ever think I could stay with my lover? And maybe at some point also marry?
49:59 Speaker 00 I do.
50:00 Esther Perel? In the creativity of multiple different kinds of relationship constellations. You know, it's not like this needs to end for something else to start. I don't know that that's what you want, but I want you to switch, if you can, from the default position to the design position.
50:21 Speaker 00 Hmm.
50:22 Esther Perel? From the victimhood, from the I'm not chosen, from the I'm not worthy, to the
50:30 Esther Perel? what actually is the life that I would like to live responsibly, creatively and responsibly.
50:40 Speaker 00 I really liked what you were saying about the stories, like that there's a couple of stories happening here. And the story of embracing this path. The thing that I like about it is that it reminds me a lot of my younger self. And I have been a very adventurous, ambitious person.
51:07 Esther Perel? Are you still? Or it's a, you're talking about a different person?
51:10 Speaker 00 I actually am. It's very weird, okay? Because I, I could be very brave, but emotionally, in like these interpersonal relationships, I feel like I've been very held back by these old demons, you know?
51:27 Esther Perel? The way I'm imagining, on the very little that you've, that you've told me. You see, when you have a father, in your case, it's the father, okay? Who prays, philanders, lies, embezzles,
51:49 Esther Perel? et cetera, et cetera. And you know it's a bad behavior.
51:55 Esther Perel? But the status of this person still feels in some wicked way better than to be the victim of all of this.
52:08 Speaker 00 Hundred percent.
52:10 Esther Perel? As the daughter, you're in a bind. You care for mom, but you don't want to identify with mom. Mom being woman.
52:18 Esther Perel? Mom being feminine, but it's the woman. It's not just the mother, it's the woman. You don't want to be that kind of woman. And so being number one becomes this kind of default position that says I'm not
52:34 Esther Perel? the reject, the second choice.
52:39 Esther Perel? That's the way the mind of that little girl often develops this narrative is the only way to not be that weakling, rejected, humiliated, made fun of, cheated on, is to be like him in terms of his power, maybe not in terms of his sociopathy, but so in terms of his father, he's the number one. He makes, he makes the decision.
53:06 Esther Perel? So it is, it's an impossible bind. I don't want to be like him because he's not a very attractive person and I don't want to be like her.
53:14 Speaker 00 Yes.
53:15 Esther Perel? But I want to be with the power that he has in order not to have to be like her.
53:21 Speaker 00 Yeah.
53:24 Esther Perel? And what is the tool I can use to have his power is the seductive tool.
53:31 Speaker 00 Yeah.
53:36 Esther Perel? What do you take with you from our conversation?
53:40 Speaker 00 I hoped that I would get some different looks at this from the standpoint of the stories, like the story that is I'm telling myself, it's being told to me that my jealousy is telling me. And I very much feel like I have gotten that. And that puts me in this position of feeling like I can talk back to it.
54:11 Speaker 00 I'm in conversation with a a narrative about what's happening here.
54:19 Esther Perel? Where would you like to put this jealousy? The piece that represents it? Where should it be put in your house?
54:29 Speaker 00 Burying it in the backyard is probably not the right answer. It either needs to get buried in the backyard or put in the middle of the mantle.
54:38 Esther Perel? Okay.
54:41 Esther Perel? All right. Would you, would you, is there, there's a sense which one feels more conducive?
54:50 Speaker 00 The mantle.
54:52 Esther Perel? Yeah, all right, go. Get up and go put it there. And then we'll say goodbye.
54:59 Speaker 00 Okay, I'll be right back.
55:00 Esther Perel? Yep.
55:07 Esther Perel? All right.
55:11 Esther Perel? So it would be there in the middle of the mantle, ready for any conversation. So will our conversation, which is now wrapped around this, what you call it?
55:26 Speaker 00 My lucky cat.
55:27 Esther Perel? Your lucky cat?
55:30 Esther Perel? And turn to it when you need to talk.
55:35 Esther Perel? Or when you need to listen differently. But have it be outside of you.
55:43 Speaker 00 It's so pretty powerful.
55:49 Speaker 00 In the living room. It was always there.
55:52 Esther Perel? Uh huh, but now it has a different symbolism.
55:57 Esther Perel? If you want, you can have a little ritual with it on a daily basis or a weekly basis and you come and you, you know, you can reflect with it. But you want to sort out the stories. They're bleeding into each other and they're making your life too confused.
56:17 Speaker 00 Thank you so much, truth. This is such a, such a joy.
56:21 Esther Perel? Thank you.
56:22 Speaker 00 All right.
56:23 Esther Perel? And bye bye.
56:24 Speaker 00 Bye.
56:37 Speaker 05 This was an Astaire calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to [email protected] . Where Should We Begin with Astaire Parel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julian Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin?
57:21 Speaker 05 Are Astaire Parel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
57:34 Speaker 01 Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs, TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.
58:17 Speaker 03 Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in, an all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheet. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at Odoo.com/vox. That's O-D-O-O dot com slash vox.
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