306. How to Launch a Behavior-Change Revolution

Academic studies are nice, and so are Nobel Prizes. But to truly prove the value of a new idea, you have to unleash it to the masses. That's what a dream team of social scientists is doing — and we sat in as they drew up their game plan.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 0:46Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:27Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:12Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Several months ago, we introduced you to a pair of University of Pennsylvania professors, Angela Duckworth.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Hi, Stephen.

• 2:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  And Katie Milkman.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Hi.

• 2:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  They wanted to solve a problem.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  A problem that if we fixed it, could truly solve every social problem we could think of.

• 2:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  The problem is ourselves.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  In other words, the problem with human beings is that they're human beings and that they repeatedly make decisions that undermine their own long-term well-being.

• 3:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  So Duckworth and Milkman started putting together a project.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  We're now calling it Behavior Change for Good with a deliberate double entendre, for good for permanent, but for good for you.

• 3:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  The idea was hatched in response to a competition from the MacArthur Foundation. The prize: a $100 million research grant. But the Behavior Change for Good project didn't even advance to the final round.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  I was not only devastated, but I was surprised. I mean, arrogance, I don't know, narcissism. I was shocked to hear that we were not advanced.

• 3:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  But by then, Duckworth and Milkman were already recruiting a dream team of fellow researchers. They'd signed on a bunch of corporate partners, and they'd fallen in love with their project. So they found some other money, not $100 million, but enough to get it going. Their mission: to determine the best behavior change practices in three realms. Number one: health.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  So think smoking cessation, healthy eating, increasing exercise, reducing alcohol consumption.

• 4:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Number two: education.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  Can we get kids to have better outcomes in school and stick to school?

• 4:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  And finally, personal finance.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Can people make better financial decisions on a daily basis so that they'll have better financial outcomes?

• 4:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  After months of planning, Duckworth and Milkman convened the first summit of their academic dream team.

• 4:29Speaker 02

  Hi, everybody. I'm super excited.

• 4:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  They met in an airy conference room in a sleek building in the UPenn Medical Center. There were lots of psychologists, several economists, a few computer scientists and MDs, some business and marketing professors, an education scholar, and us. So, coming up today on Freakonomics Radio, an inside look at how to put together a massive research project whose ambitions are even larger.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  We think because this is like the Hall of Justice with all the superpowers in one place, that we might have a shot at doing something that hasn't been done before.

• 5:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  You'll hear some of the problems they've identified.

• 5:09Speaker 03

  I mean, we're spending hundreds of billions of dollars in colleges, and I think we're not getting much value for our money.

• 5:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  You'll hear some of the more obvious challenges.

• 5:18Speaker 04

  Most behavior change is actually not desirable, and that's one of the major things that stands in our way.

• 5:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  And the risks of such a high-stakes enterprise.

• 5:27Speaker 05

  If they fail, that's going to be quite costly for a long time.

• 5:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's coming up, right after this.

• 5:45Speaker 06

  From WNYC Studios, this is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 6:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  This project, Behavior Change for Good, is noteworthy, to me at least, because it represents the next logical step in a revolution that's been brewing for a few decades. It began with the research of Danny Kahneman and Amos Tversky, a pair of Israeli psychologists who changed the way we think about thinking and decision-making.

• 6:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  The revolution was furthered by the economist Richard Thaler, who believed that his field should acknowledge that people rarely behave as rationally as economic models predict, that people, as Angela Duckworth says,

• 6:34Speaker 01

  repeatedly make decisions that undermine their own long-term well-being.

• 6:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  And therefore, that it might be wise to help people make better decisions for themselves and for society. Maybe it'll take a nudge, maybe it'll mean expanding a choice set or shrinking it, maybe it'll mean redesigning how the incentives in a given situation are set up, whether through smart algorithms or old-fashioned human touch. Essentially, it's about helping people get the satisfaction they need in the short term and the outcomes they'll want in the long term. This is the revolution that's been happening, a behavior change revolution. It began in academia, where it has come to be greatly valued. Kahneman

• 7:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  won a Nobel Prize in Economics in 2002, Thaler just landed the Nobel a few weeks ago. The revolution has been creeping into government policy shops and commercial firms. We've talked about this in previous episodes, like Big Returns from Thinking Small, and The White House Gets Into the Nudge Business, and The Maddest Men of All. So yeah, the revolution is real, but it's hardly mainstream yet. And that is what Duckworth and Milkman want to change. This will not be easy. Institutional and societal change, when it happens at all, usually happens slowly with a lot of pushback. Also, behavior change

• 7:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  is inherently a big ask, especially in the realms they're going after. It's a lot more fun to cut class and spend $10 on a cheeseburger today than to go to class, skip the cheeseburger, and invest the $10 for the future. But Duckworth, when she first addressed her fellow researchers at Penn, projected nothing but confidence.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  This is actually, I think, the best scientific problem and the most pressing social problem that anybody could be working on. So we're honored that you decided to show up and that you want to work on it with us.

• 8:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  She did acknowledge that thinkers from previous eras, from Aristotle to Freud, had wrestled with the problem of self-destructive behavior.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  But we're working in the 24th century, so technology is something that was not in affordance for Freud. If you take any rough metric, any kind of, you know, back-of-the-envelope calculation of like, how much does behavior play a role in urgent social problems? It's huge. It suggests to us that if we can make a tiny dent in this problem, that there's the possibility of helping millions of people in truly material ways.

• 9:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  Katie Milkman was up next.

• 9:12Speaker 02

  So here's the vision. So there are lots of people out there running around in the world who would love to change their behavior. So maybe they have a problem with savings, or they just can't get themselves to take their medications, or exercise, or eat right, or study hard, whatever it might be. They're out there. And it turns out there are lots of gigantic organizations who are already serving these people, many of whom are our partners on this project. Partners like Bank of America with 47 million customers, 24 Hour Fitness with 4 million customers, CVS Caremark. We just have unbelievable reach.

• 9:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  So the idea is simple. The researchers gathered here today will partner with those organizations and others to run real-world experiments on millions of people that will reveal the best way to accomplish lasting behavior change. The main tool will be a custom-built digital platform. On the front end, it's an interface between a bank, or a fitness, or pharmacy chain, and their customers. On the back end, the platform is a powerful piece of research software for the academics.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  These organizational partners will market it, and hopefully these people will come. They'll sign up for our program. They'll consent to be part of our research studies. We'll get data about program participants' daily decisions. And we'll be able to see what's actually working. We'll get that data as a pipe stream forever. And then, of course, the end goal is to create a solution to behavior change for good with lots and lots of A/B testing. All the ideas you can come up with, we are going to have room for them. The goal is that eventually this platform will have the capacity to test anything we can dream up with plenty of power. So that's the vision.

• 10:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  For some people, that vision may be frightening. You might ask, why is my bank or gym or drugstore turning me into a guinea pig? And what about my privacy? This concern may strike others as a bit quaint, given that we're living in a time when billions of people willingly share their innermost preferences with Google and Facebook and Amazon. But still, it's a concern. Here's another concern for some people. When Richard Thaler was beginning to popularize the behavior change nudges that he got famous for, he called the idea libertarian paternalism. To some people, that might seem like a delicious oxymoron. But others might say, yuck, I like to make my own decisions. Thank you very much. I don't need your paternalism.

• 11:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Or they might just think libertarians are right-wing kooks or left-wing kooks or something kooky. In any case, Duckworth and Milkman believe that the benefits of their behavior change project will far outweigh the costs. And so, to get their summit rolling, they opened up the floor to a discussion about the digital platform they're building and how it would affect study design. Things got pretty nerdy real fast. How are you thinking about differential attrition?

• 12:06Speaker 07

  Can we partition the data?

• 12:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  There would be some studies that might have more specific eligibility criteria.

• 12:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, fantastic question. That's interesting. Well, you know.

• 12:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  During the first break, I caught up with Duckworth and Milkman. So just briefly, describe what just happened, your opening session.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  We gathered the scientists that we have been.

• 12:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  You gathered them?

• 12:28Speaker 01

  I gathered them. Yeah, we gathered them. Sorry.

• 12:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is that an academic term I'm not familiar with?

• 12:33Speaker 01

  I tried them again. I know. I don't know what the R was. We gathered the scientists on our team to meet together for the first time. We presented to them an overview of what we hoped, both in the poetic terms of the sublime dream of solving behavior change, and then also in the very practical terms of the digital platform that we're building.

• 12:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  And Katie, talk about what the next, whatever, 48 hours is meant to really accomplish.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  Well, we're trying to get into the innards of this platform we're building and make sure that it's flexible enough to allow the scientists to test everything they might want to test, that it's flexible enough to allow them to dream up any sort of population they might want to recruit, and to make sure we're not making, honestly, statistical mistakes that would be insurmountable and prevent us from accurately examining the evidence we collect.

• 13:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Most of the comments were, I guess, typically in this kind of conversation about like, features that should be different, or that aren't there, or concerns, et cetera. Is that about what you're expecting at this stage?

• 13:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think people had questions about the features, but they also had questions about the study design. And I would say half of them were ones that we thought about, and the other half were ones we hadn't thought about.

• 13:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, so that's really valuable, then.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  So, I mean, that was gold. That was the most incredibly valuable, I think, 60 minutes we've had since we started this project.

• 13:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Give me one, for instance, that stood out, either of you.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  I really liked the point. We had thought about it, but I really liked the point that some people may want to zoom in on a particular type.

• 14:05Speaker 07

  With education, you might be trying to target a particular kind of student, say, for example, students who struggle in math. Can we use partner data to target recruitment?

• 14:14Speaker 02

  And that's exactly something we have to be flexible and allow on our platform, and we haven't solved it yet.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  One of the points that David Leaps in The Economist brought up.

• 14:23Speaker 03

  As the incentives get absolutely de minimis, if you pay them so little, some of them are gonna Be demotivated. You know, feel manipulated.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  When you give people incentives, all you think about is increasing their motivation. But when the incentives are paltry, you can actually have a backfiring. And so people look at this tiny amount of money, and they're now going to be less motivated than they were if you had given them nothing.

• 14:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Milkman pointed out one more feature of the opening session.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Lots of people in this room have actually never met before. Many of them don't know one another's work because this is such a cross disciplinary group. And so this is going to be the time when the minds meet and actually hear from one another about their decades of research and insights. And hopefully, it'll spark some amazing collaborations.

• 15:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Back to the conference room now for a series of speed talks, where the researchers would give a thumbnail view of themselves and their specialties. Among the first ones, Adam Grant, the organizational psychologist and author from Penn's Wharton School of Business.

• 15:21Speaker 04

  Morning, everyone. It's always a treat to come together with a great group of underachievers.

• 15:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Grant has already done a lot of work on behavior change.

• 15:29Speaker 04

  Most behavior change is actually not desirable. And that's one of the major things that stands in our way, is that the thing that we're trying to convince ourselves or others to do is not actually something that we want to do or that they want to do. And that got me wondering, instead of highlighting all the benefits of changing for the self, what if we focused more on the benefits to others? So instead of personal benefits, what if we highlighted pro-social benefits of behavior change?

• 15:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Grant has seen evidence of this effect in his own research, in trying to get fundraisers to work harder, to get doctors to wash their hands more often, and lifeguards to be more attentive.

• 16:04Speaker 04

  I guess I'm curious about whether, if we educate people about behavior change and the underlying processes that drive it, is it actually then easier to change their attitudes? I think it's an open question, but I hope this group is able to figure it out.

• 16:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Wendy Wood, a professor of psychology and business at the University of Southern California, studies habit formation.

• 16:23Speaker 08

  So I think one of the things that initiated this conference is that the field is really good, scientific field more broadly, is really good at some things and not so good at others. And the things that we're really good at right now is changing behavior in the short term. We're also really good, I think, at changing people's knowledge and beliefs. We're not so good at changing long-term behavior.

• 16:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  How about an example?

• 16:56Speaker 08

  Okay. One is the five-a-day fruits and veggies. Anyone remember this? This was really successful in one way. It was a tremendously large-scale intervention. It was successful at changing our knowledge. We now know that we should eat more fruits and vegetables. It had no effect on behavior. In fact, consumption has gone down since the program started.

• 17:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yikes. The challenge of changing behavior long-term was echoed by Todd Rogers, a behavioral scientist at Harvard. Most treatment effects don't persist. And sometimes they do, and when they do, we have no idea why. And it's hard to predict which will persist and which won't. The economist David Leibson, also at Harvard, used his speed talk to cover a particular problem he's identified in his classroom: the use and abuse of laptop computers.

• 17:54Speaker 03

  There's a huge negative externality for other students in the class. You're sitting there, and the person next to you is clattering away, and you're distracted by the sound, and you're occasionally looking at their screen, and then it makes you want to look at Facebook, too. So there's all sorts of problems like that.

• 18:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's a classic short-term versus long-term dilemma.

• 18:13Speaker 03

  The web offers instant gratification that undermines our very good intentions to get the most out of class, and I think that's all about present bias. We go into the classroom and we are convinced, "I am going to be a good student," and suddenly other things become very appealing and very tempting, and we're distracted by those other very gratifying opportunities, and suddenly we've lost 45 minutes of the 50-minute lecture.

• 18:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  Leibson sees this as a smallish problem with potentially huge ramifications.

• 18:43Speaker 03

  I mean, we're spending hundreds of billions of dollars in colleges, and I think we're not getting much value for our money.

• 18:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  So what are the possible solutions to the laptop dilemma?

• 18:52Speaker 03

  We could have a laissez-faire policy. Students are adults. When they reach college age, let them decide. We could have an educational intervention. We could explain, you know, all of these issues. We could ban laptops. I've thought about all these. I don't really love any of these options, so let me offer a different alternative, one that we could actually, as a group, test or think about testing.

• 19:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what is this alternative?

• 19:14Speaker 03

  In my class at Harvard, we have an opt-in laptop policy.

• 19:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  I caught up with Leibson afterward to hear some more about this. Now, David, you were talking about a project of yours, which prompted for me many questions, which, I have to say, I recorded said questions on my laptop, so I proved the value of my laptop right there, but can you talk about what you were describing and then where you want to go with that?

• 19:37Speaker 03

  So I love the point that the laptop was good for you, for a lot of people in a lecture hall. It's actually a distraction for some people in a lecture hall. It's exactly what they need to take notes, to look up related information. It complements their experience rather than destroying it. And so the problem is, how do we separate the wheat from the chaff?

• 19:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  Could you give like a 60-second summary of your pilot study?

• 20:01Speaker 03

  We have two sections in class. One section is for people who don't want to use a laptop and don't want to be around others using a laptop. Then we have another section, which is the laptop section.

• 20:14Speaker 03

  Our view is that different students should choose one of the other section. Our concern is that if we just let students in real time make the choice, sitting down, "What do you want to do right now?", a lot of people would flip open their laptop because the temptation is overwhelming. So what we do is tell our students at the start of the semester, "It's up to you. Tell us if you want to be in the laptop section and we'll assign you to that section." And there's a deadline for the making that decision, and once you make the decision, it's final. And for everyone else who doesn't opt into the laptop section, they're defaulted into this no laptop section.

• 20:55Speaker 03

  And what we find is that about 80% of our students stay with the default of being in a non-laptop section. And when we survey our students at the end of the year and say, "Did this policy of having these two sections facilitate your learning?", on a 0 to 10 scale, the average rating is a little over 8. So I think it's about letting people choose for themselves, but letting them choose in a deliberative, thoughtful, careful way at the start of the semester, and then, once they've committed to one path or the other, letting that decision have its consequences.

• 21:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you want to replicate or enlarge this exact study?

• 21:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. Right now, we've got an anecdote. It should be replicated across dozens of courses, and there should be much more careful efforts to actually measure whether it's affecting learning, whether students value this, or whether students feel that this is inappropriate paternalistic behavior on our part.

• 21:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  And so it went for the rest of day one of Behavior Change for Good. Lots of spitballing about methodology, potential research ideas, and more. A few quick observations. I heard more than I would have thought I'd hear about shifting the theoretical framework of decision-making, and less than I would have thought about basic incentives like gamification. But let's be realistic, these are a bunch of top-tier academic researchers. Theoretical frameworks is how they got to where they are. I also heard less than I would have thought about one of the inherent challenges in all behavior change research, that the people most responsive to behavioral nudges are often the ones who already have a pretty decent track record

• 22:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  with self-discipline and delayed gratification. It's sort of the behavioral equivalent of pharmaceutical trials using the least sick patients they can find. And one more thing. Every conference I've ever been to gets behind schedule. It's just the way it is. Somehow, I thought this one would be different. I thought that a bunch of people trying to teach the rest of us how to, say, use our time wisely, that they might have some magical time management tricks. But they didn't. Which proves, if nothing else, that these behavioralist wizards are, like us, human.

• 23:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up after the break, day two of the conference, drilling down into some experimental ideas, and a visit from Nobel laureate Danny Kahneman, the eminence griez of the behavioralist movement, who offers encouragement, caution, and some inside tricks.

• 23:29Speaker 05

  You have to overpromise in order to get anything done.

• 23:43Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 24:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. There's no hiding how convenient Southern New Hampshire University makes college. They offer over 80 career-focused graduate programs online. Classes have no set meeting times, so you can balance life and learning, and online tuition rates are some of the lowest in the country, making it all a little more manageable. A school this willing to work with you is worth the investment. Visit snhu.edu/freakonomics to learn more. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by hotels.com. Hotels.com helps you find and book the right stay for work faster. With business preferences, save your travel must haves, like gym access or breakfast,

• 25:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  just once, then get tailored results whenever you search for work travel. Plus, with a free membership, you can save up to 20% on hotels and earn rewards on every stay for future travel. Book now at hotels.com. Visit hotels.com for details. Day two of the Behavior Change for Good conference began with breakout sessions. Researchers from different fields talking about designing smart experiments to help people stay fit, eat better, get out of debt, and so on.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  My team focused on getting high school students to study more for the SAT.

• 26:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Angela Duckworth.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  We went from the mundane to the sublime.

• 26:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Here's a listen with Duckworth and David Jaeger, a psychologist at the University of Texas, Austin.

• 26:23Speaker 09

  Maybe if you capitalize on some wave of motivation to study, like right after the PSAT, and get it at a time when maybe-

• 26:30Speaker 01

  When I'm not conflicted between, I mean, one thing's-

• 26:32Speaker 09

  When there's not an academic conflict. One thing I'm seeing emerging is to not fight the tendency to be performance-oriented in SAT prep. But invite people to be mastery oriented in their preparation skills.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Is it possible to do in a random assignment experiment delivered through Qualtrics and through texting to half of the kids and not the other half?

• 26:52Speaker 09

  I think that is possible here. And then that would give you a model for thinking about the content of the text messages.

• 26:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right? I caught up with Duckworth afterwards.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  So we spent a lot of time figuring out how many kids are they kids from disadvantaged? And it was very tactical, but we ended with a sublime, which is what is the rite of passage to adulthood in America? There really isn't one. And can we actually use this challenge as a way of reframing the transition from high school to college in a way that would actually give kids an on-ramp to that as opposed to like dropping them into this thing called young adulthood on a college campus somewhere where they have no support?

• 27:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. And what happens next?

• 27:30Speaker 01

  The next steps for our group is that we will prepare a random assignment study for high school seniors who are taking the SAT this October.

• 27:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what was Katie Milkman's breakout session about?

• 27:44Speaker 02

  My team was diving into an actual study design for a random assignment trial, trying to help people exercise more regularly.

• 27:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  And here's a listen to that. Among Milkman's group were Lauren S. Kreis Winkler, a postdoc fellow in psychology at Penn, and Ayella Fishbach, a professor of behavioral science and marketing at the University of Chicago.

• 28:06Speaker 10

  Hi. So I know you have some studies where you make it fun by adding music. So why are they finding fun by doing an exercise? Couldn't they just like bring music?

• 28:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a good point. We could give them strategies for making workouts fun.

• 28:17Speaker 10

  Other ways to make it fun.

• 28:18Speaker 11

  Well, they have earbuds, right?

• 28:20Speaker 02

  I'm trying to think what the treatment is, but you could imagine we tell them to try these different exercises and then we tell them to try doing them while listening to music or audiobooks or watching TV shows.

• 28:30Speaker 11

  We could, yes. And the thing that you will find there is that you can watch a TV show more easily maybe while biking than running.

• 28:39Speaker 02

  Right. Probably also not when swimming.

• 28:42Speaker 11

  Not the TV show, but the music. Yeah, you can listen to music also.

• 28:46Speaker 02

  You can?

• 28:46Speaker 10

  With earphones?

• 28:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  And I chatted with Milkman after her session. What about making the activity itself more fun or less intimidating? I think one big barrier for people who don't know their way around a gym is like, oh, all these people with all these machines, they know how to move them. I don't. So what, how do you make it more fun for someone who's not acclimated?

• 29:06Speaker 02

  So we actually decided that our design should have two elements. One element is focusing people either on the fun or on what's most effective. So that would be one thing we'd test, A versus B. The second element would be rewarding people for exploring different activities at the gym and then reporting back to us and seeing if, if having them go through that coaching process could help them zoom in on what's right for them in a way that would lead them to form a more sustainable exercise habit.

• 29:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Great. And then concrete details, what happens next?

• 29:34Speaker 02

  What happens next is we go back and forth a lot of times on the draft we literally put together in the last hour and a half of materials. And then we do a heck of a lot of piloting to make sure that our questions all make sense. And then we do more piloting and then we launch.

• 29:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Uh huh. And you launch with how large a population?

• 29:51Speaker 02

  We'll launch with thousands of people and our, our aimed for launch date is January of 2018, when people will be benefiting from freshman feelings and New Year's resolutions and eager to sign up for our program that helps them exercise more.

• 30:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  And the partner on this is who?

• 30:05Speaker 02

  We have two partners on this, 24 Hour Fitness and Blink Fitness.

• 30:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  As a result of the work on this day and in the weeks to follow, the Behavior Change for Good project would line up a great number of pilot studies that will kick off in early 2018. They would also come up with a few million more dollars to fund their project and they'd add some other big names to their roster of research scientists. For this first summit, meanwhile, the highlight was undeniable. It was a long chat and Q and A with the psychologist Danny Kahneman.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Danny Kahneman is not only the elder statesman of behavioral science, but he's also our Beyonce. So we were just overwhelmed with joy and gratitude when he said, "Yeah, I will come and close out this session."

• 30:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Kahneman's moderator was Max Bazerman, himself a most distinguished scholar. He teaches business administration at Harvard, and he's written many landmark pieces on decision-making, ethics, and negotiation.

• 31:04Speaker 12

  By the way, I'm nervous. Somehow interviewing Danny makes me nervous.

• 31:10Speaker 05

  You're making me nervous.

• 31:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Bazerman began with a brief overview of Kahneman's research, most of it done with his late collaborator, Amos Tversky. The two of them were the subject of Michael Lewis's book, The Undoing Project, which Lewis discussed on this program in an episode called "The Men Who Started a Thinking Revolution." It is incredible to me how many different spheres of human existence these guys' work has touched and influenced. Now, Max Bazerman again.

• 31:40Speaker 12

  I realize that most of the people in this room don't remember the 1970s.

• 31:45Speaker 05

  At least not clearly.

• 31:48Speaker 12

  But there was a time when, after your '74 paper, where psychologists became acutely aware of your work. I think economists weren't paying too much attention. And then eventually, the behavioral economics movement starts. But throughout the last millennium, this was kind of more of an academic literature. And in this millennium, we've seen this robust movement into the real world by groups that do research, like the members here, by the behavioral insight teams. How do you sort of explain the shift from academic to intense real-world interests?

• 32:25Speaker 05

  So behavioral economics, as it currently exists, I think, started in a bar.

• 32:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's right. Behavioral economics started in a bar. Danny Kahneman and Amos Tversky were having drinks with Eric Waner, future president of the Russell Sage Foundation.

• 32:42Speaker 05

  And Eric said that he wanted to bring psychology and economics closer together. And he wanted our advice as to... How he should go about it. And I remember telling him, you shouldn't spend any money on psychologists who want to influence economics. You should look for economists who might be interested in what psychology has to say. Now, there was such an economist, and his name was Richard Thaler.

• 33:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  You've heard Richard Thaler before on this program, too. I'm a professor of economics and behavioral science at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. I've never had a real job. And it was Thaler, Kahneman says, who put the economics in behavioral economics.

• 33:33Speaker 05

  Because the very first grant that Eric Warner gave, I think, when he became president of the Russell Sage Foundation, was for Dick Thaler to spend a year with me in Vancouver. I was at the University of British Columbia at the time.

• 33:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  After a time, Thaler began writing a column called "Anomalies" in the Journal of Economic Perspectives at the suggestion of its editor, Joseph Stiglitz.

• 33:58Speaker 05

  And Dick published anomalies for years. And they cast doubt on sort of the basic rational agent model systematically, without preaching just the facts. That had a huge impact. So when you ask, you know, how did behavioral economics happen? It's an accident, unlike all accidents. So there was that meeting in a bar, and then there was that year in Vancouver, and then there was Joe Stiglitz having an idea about anomalies.

• 34:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, the conversation turned to the Behavior Change for Good project.

• 34:35Speaker 12

  What most of the folks in this room have been talking about is how to get behavioral change that occurs, and at least it can last over time. Give us wisdom on this topic.

• 34:47Speaker 05

  I won't give you wisdom, but I'll cite the idea that, for me, is the best idea I've heard in psychology. And I heard it as an undergraduate. And it's the story of how you induce people to change their behavior as taught by Kurt Lewin. Now, he is my intellectual grandfather.

• 35:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Kurt Lewin was a German-American psychologist who, in the early 20th century, developed several ideas that became central to modern psychology. Among them, that people's behavior is strongly driven by two main external forces.

• 35:24Speaker 05

  There are driving forces that drive you in a particular direction, and there are restraining forces which are preventing you from going there. And the notion that Lewin offers is that behavior is an equilibrium between the driving and the restraining forces. And you can see that, you know, the speed at which you drive, for example, is an equilibrium. When you are rushing someplace, you feel tired or you're worried about police. You don't, there is an equilibrium speed.

• 36:04Speaker 05

  I mean, a lot of things can be described as an equilibrium between driving and restraining forces. And Lewin's insight was that if you want to achieve change in behavior, there is one good way to do it and one bad way to do it. And the good way to do it is by diminishing the restraining forces, not by increasing the driving forces. And that turns out to be profoundly non-intuitive.

• 36:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  In most cases, Kahneman explained, we try to change people's behavior with a mishmash of arguments, incentives, and threats.

• 36:47Speaker 05

  Diminishing the restraining forces is a completely different kind of activity because instead of asking, "How can I get him or her to do it?" It starts with a question of, "Why isn't she doing it already?" It's a very different question, "Why not?" And then you go one by one systematically and you ask, "What can I do to make it easier?" For that person to move. And it turns out that the way to make things easier is almost always by controlling the individual's environment, broadly speaking, by just making it easier.

• 37:32Speaker 05

  If there are incentives that work against it, let's change the incentives. If there is social pressure, or if there is somebody who is against it, I want to influence B, but there is A in the background, and it's actually A who is a restraining force on B. Let's work on A, not on B. I have never heard a psychological idea that impressed me quite as much as this, perhaps because, you know, I was at an impressionable age.

• 38:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  The floor had by now opened up to questions for Kahneman, and I took my shot. So, this is kind of a primordial question, but is it just part of human instinct, the assumption that driving works better than restraining? Like, is it a little dictator complex that we all have, not only about ourselves but others?

• 38:27Speaker 05

  Well, you know, I mean, it seems to me that it's a natural thing to do. That is, when you want to move an object, you move it. And when you want to move somebody, you try to move them. But the idea of looking at the situation from that individual's point of view, which is the only way that you can find restraining forces, that is really not very natural. So, you know, it is primordial, it is, you know, very basic, that when we want things to move, we move them.

• 39:08Speaker 02

  One of the things I was thinking about is the risk of overpromising. And I feel like every few years I hear people worrying about have we overpromised what psychology can contribute to policy and are people expecting too much from things like the nudge unit relative to what they can deliver. And I'm curious, as we embark on this massive adventure, how you think about those risks and managing expectations while doing this in a very public way.

• 39:40Speaker 05

  There is a real problem, a social problem, that if you realistically present to people what can be achieved in solving a problem, they will find that completely uninteresting. You have to overpromise in order to get anything done. That really is part of it. Because you take a problem like poverty, and President Johnson was about to solve the problem. He was just about to solve the problem. And if the realistic objective, which is to reduce this by 12% and to increase that

• 40:23Speaker 05

  by 5 and so on, people would have said, "That's trivial. We want to solve the problem." And so, overpromising is part of the game. I think you can't get anywhere without some degree of overpromising.

• 40:39Speaker 03

  So I agree that overpromising... Sorry, David Lake, in...

• 40:45Speaker 05

  I know.

• 40:46Speaker 03

  I agree that overpromising has the virtue that it accelerates the initial effort, but it has the cost that it undermines the ongoing effort. So I'm surprised, particularly in light of all the work you've done explaining the psychological biases, like the planning fallacy, and other biases that lead us to overpromise, not because we're doing it... As a rational, sophisticated strategy, but rather as a psychological error. I'm surprised to hear you saying today that overpromising is a wise strategy. I would have thought-

• 41:30Speaker 05

  I never used the word "wise strategy."

• 41:32Speaker 03

  Ah. You said it was necessary.

• 41:36Speaker 05

  I was saying it's very unlikely to happen otherwise. When you look at big successes, the people who carried out those big successes were unreasonably optimistic typically.

• 41:48Speaker 03

  But are you recommending that we overpromise, or are you saying it just happens to be a coincidence?

• 41:54Speaker 05

  I'm just saying, you are probably going to overpromise, you know, for a lot of good reasons.

• 42:01Speaker 03

  I agree.

• 42:02Speaker 05

  And I wouldn't fight you on this. You know, that's not the worst thing that can happen, I think. Because it may be necessary to get the resources.

• 42:19Speaker 05

  And it may be necessary to get the initial enthusiasm that is needed to do anything at all, because there's so much inertia that realistic promises are at a major disadvantage. And they're at a major disadvantage because everybody else is overpromising.

• 42:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  After Kahneman's talk, Freakonomics Radio producer Greg Rosalsky and I caught up with Kahneman in the hallway.

• 42:46Speaker 13

  When you're thinking about designing incentives, so obviously the people who are organizing this conference, you know, they're very dedicated, they're disciplined, and then a lot of the experiments they're designing are, you know, on the general public, and do you have any sort of lessons when, you know, thinking about incentives or how to design incentives, or experiments or interventions in general, you know, when there's sort of a mismatch between the people who are designing incentives and the people who are the incentives are for?

• 43:13Speaker 05

  Well, I think that people who cannot identify with their subjects have no business doing interventions or experiments, so I have very little sympathy for those. And, and I think you're putting too much, you're using the wood incentives more, more often than I would, than I would. I think incentives are really only part of the story.

• 43:35Speaker 13

  Intervention maybe would be a better...

• 43:37Speaker 05

  Yeah. And, and what we have to get used to is that we'll design the interventions as powerful as we can make them, and then they will have small effects. And we have, in some ways, the people who do this should be aware ahead of time that, yes, we hope it's going to have a practically significant effect, and it will not solve the problem.

• 44:00Speaker 13

  Early on in your career, you were doing a lot of real-world applications of, of your theories in the Israeli military and in other places. Did you feel that sort of environment versus doing it cloistered away in academia, do you think there's like any, any lessons that could be sort of learned for this sort of project?

• 44:18Speaker 05

  Well, I was always interested in the real world. I never saw a real difference. All the effects that I studied, certainly in the domain of judgment and decision-making, were, were real effects that I expected would replicate in the real world, and they were based on personal experiences. So, I find this completely natural.

• 44:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let me just ask one last question. So I don't know how much you know about Angela and Katie's project. It's extremely ambitious. They have partners from big banks to big educational institutions, fitness firms, and they have access to thousands, maybe millions of customers, and they're bringing together all these researchers to try to come up with interventions. It's hugely ambitious. There are many layers to get it to success. Talk just for a minute about what you think are the odds that it will work, or what dimensions it may work on, or where they might be frustrated?

• 45:17Speaker 05

  I mean, what you can hope for is what is called practically significant improvement, which is usually a few percent.

• 45:28Speaker 05

  And if you get a few percent at relatively low cost, that's a success. But naturally, you have to want more and you have to settle for what you get. The fact that they're working on a large scale is hugely important. That's a new departure. And that very fact, especially if they're successful. I mean, if they fail, that's going to be quite costly for a long time. But I think that they will have at least partial success. The ideas are good. They are good. Something good will happen.

• 46:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Something good will happen. Maybe. On the other hand, he also says, "If they fail, it's going to be quite costly for a long time." I asked Angela Duckworth whether Danny Kahneman's assessment scared her off. After all, she is devoting most of her professional life for the next couple of years to this project.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  My favorite poem is Rudyard Kipling's "If." And the second line is, "If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, but make allowance for their doubting too." In other words, do what you're going to do, but when someone says there are 19 problems you hadn't thought of, write them all down and then solve them.

• 46:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Thank you for giving us an ending to the episode. That was very nice of you, Angela.

• 47:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  We will be keeping tabs on the Behavior Change for Good project, and we'll let you hear about it in future episodes. Meanwhile, coming up next time on Freakonomics Radio, I'm guessing you've heard about the concern that companies like Google, Facebook, and Amazon have gotten too powerful for the public good.

• 47:20Speaker 14

  They have developed the capacity to manipulate us, to control us, to control the information that is delivered to us.

• 47:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  We'll get into that primary issue, but also the secondary issue of how firms like these are shaping public opinion by spending lavishly on think tanks and foundations.

• 47:41Speaker 15

  And that's become relevant because they fired a vociferous critic of Google from the foundation.

• 47:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  With a controversy like this, there are bound to be differing views. We do not pay to play. We take funding and we do our work and those two things are separate. How philanthropic is this kind of philanthropy? I don't think philanthropists deserve that amount of charity, if you will. Power deserves scrutiny in a democratic society, not gratitude. The hidden side of corporate philanthropy, that's next time on Freakonomics Radio.

• 48:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is produced by WNYC Studios and Dubner Productions. This episode was produced by Greg Rosalsky with help from Harry Huggins. Our staff also includes Alison Hockenberry, Merritt Jacobs, Stephanie Tam, Eliza Lambert, Emma Morgenstern, and Brian Gutierrez. We had help this week from Sam Baer and special thanks to Laura Zaro, Kelly Hughes, Valerie Nash, Octavian Busuyuk, Vivian William, and Tanya Gulati for helping us with the conference. The music you hear throughout the episode was composed by Luis Guerra. You can subscribe to Freakonomics Radio on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts. You should also check out our archive at Freakonomics.com where you can stream or download every episode we have ever made. You can also find the transcripts

• 49:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  there and links to the underlying academic research. We can also be found on Twitter, Facebook, or via email at [email protected]. Thanks for listening.

• 49:24Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 49:57Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 50:27Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 50:58Speaker 16

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