Episode 455: Dr. Vishal Patel: Why Your Feet Control Your Longevity and Most Wellness Tech Is Wrong

Are wellness retreats just luxury getaways, or can they transform your health? In this episode of the Habits and Hustle podcast, I speak with Dr. Vishal Patel, who explains how most wellness gadgets might be causing more stress than health benefits. We explore the science behind Sensei's approach, including how thermal imaging can detect muscular imbalances before they cause pain, and why most saunas aren't hot enough to deliver benefits. Dr. Patel debunks popular wellness myths, shares why foot strength is the foundation of longevity, and explains why tracking obsession can be counterproductive. Dr. Vishal Patel is the Chief Scientific Officer at Sensei, a wellness retreat company co-founded by Larry Ellison and Dr. David Agus. With a background as a physician with a PhD in genetics, Dr. Patel combines Western medicine with Eastern practices like Ayurveda to create evidence-based wellness approaches that focus on personalization rather than rigid rules. What We Discuss: 03:02 Personalized Wellness Programs 05:51 The Science of Eating and Nourishment 08:56 Understanding Body Mechanics for Longevity 12:03 Vishal Patel's Background and Expertise 14:54 Debunking Wellness Myths and Misinformation 20:13 The Science Behind Wellness Trends 25:14 Exploring Infrared Saunas and Their Efficacy 30:00 The Role of Data in Health Tracking 35:29 Understanding Plasmapheresis and Its Implications …and more! Thank you to our sponsors: Momentous: Shop this link https://www.livemomentous.com/?srsltid=AfmBOorDUIZz3psr1Qsq_n1yE8_6JTq_QUFabOO9lH65HDEXCIoJOPLj and use code Jen for 20% off Therasage: Head over to therasage.com http://therasage.com/ and use code Be Bold for 15% off TruNiagen: Head over to truniagen.com http://truniagen.com/ and use code HUSTLE20 to get $20 off any purchase over $100. Magic Mind: Head over to www http://www/.magicmind.com http://magicmind.com//jen and use code Jen at checkout. Bio.me: Link to daily prebiotic fiber here https://bio.me/?utm_source=Jennifer, code Jennifer20 for 20% off. David: Buy 4, get the 5th free at davidprotein.com/habitsandhustle http://davidprotein.com/habitsandhustle. Find more from Jen: Website: https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen Books: https://www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: https://www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagement Find more from Dr. Vishal Patel: Website: https://sensei.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vishal-n-patel-md-phd/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hi guys, this is Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it!

• 0:06Jen Cohen?

  Before we dive into today's episode, I first want to thank our sponsor Therasage. Their Trillight Panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go. And I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammations in places in my body where honestly, I have pain. You can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle. Red light therapy is my go-to. Plus, it also has amazing anti-aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for.

• 0:49Jen Cohen?

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• 1:30Jen Cohen?

  So I'm joined today by Dr. Vishal Patel, who is the Chief Science and Innovative Officer at a place called, it's the most beautiful place I've ever been, Sensei. Sensei is basically, I want you to kind of walk us through it, because I had a beautiful experience. It is a wellness facility that is beyond anything I've ever been to because of the care and the quality and just overall the programming. Let's talk about how, what would you, how would you describe what it is? And then let's get into your background and what your involvement is.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  Oh, sure. Yeah, to describe what it is, it's a wellness retreat, but even that doesn't do justice to the place and the experience. It was a vision that our co-founders Larry Ellison and David Agus had. There was the passing of a close friend, Steve Jobs, that really made them realize that they need, the world needs spaces where even the best and brightest can feel safe and get trusted, vetted advice about their health and wellness. And I think that's probably what you experienced at Lanai, that it feels like a place where you can let your guard down, where you can, you can feel safe, you can get space to wander and you have experts, which are really hidden gems that a lot of people don't expect.

• 2:49Speaker 02

  But we have brilliant, brilliant minds and hearts on Lanai that can guide our guests to greater well-being. It's something special.

• 2:58Jen Cohen?

  It is something special. So yeah, so like I went to the one like in Lanai in Hawaii. And there's, how many locations do you guys have, three now?

• 3:07Speaker 02

  We are now three, as of last week, yeah. We just opened our first international location in Cabo with the Ritz-Carlton Reserve in Mexico.

• 3:16Jen Cohen?

  So yeah, because the one I went to was with the Four Seasons. And like, let me just kind of like explain and break it down a bit, because I've been, given what I do for my background, for my job, whatever, I've been to like a plethora of different wellness facilities. I've tried every program retreat. Number one, what I found to be very unique, it is very personalized. That's the first thing I would say. And the attention to detail with what you can have. I think I was, I think I did the rest and relaxation program. And Jim, I think his name was Jim, who really kind of like, really did a lot of like intake on like my background, what I'm going through in life. And then the program is very personalized for my, for me. You also have another program that I didn't do.

• 4:01Jen Cohen?

  That's very much about data and metrics.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, we call it the optimal well-being program.

• 4:06Jen Cohen?

  The optimal well being program. What I found though with the one I was at, the one thing I found was interesting was, you know, a lot of these programs, the food is very precise, like the, you know, the caloric intake you're taking, they really kind of try to like, they try to really kind of, I, I guess, kind of like be involved in like your overall, like what you're taking in nutrition wise while you're there.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, we often describe it as like a prescription or a boot camp or regimen. I, I know I'm really familiar with, you know, maybe like the ranch in Malibu and places like that where it's, it can feel a little, yeah, very restrictive. Yes, that's right. Yeah.

• 4:47Jen Cohen?

  Well, there's a little property in there, right?

• 4:49Speaker 02

  And it's no, that's right.

• 4:50Jen Cohen?

  There was very little, yeah, that like I, I found that to be like, kind of like the antithesis of what a wellness program is about. Can you explain why you guys are not?

• 5:00Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely.

• 5:01Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, because I found that to be an interesting takeaway.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, and in a nutshell, it's because the scientific evidence doesn't support rules for living life. So when we looked at the scientific literature, my, my team and our co-founders, for what results in say, healthy eating, just as one example, you know, we focus on movement, rest, but just taking food and nourishment. But when you take a rules based approach to eating, where there's a certain list of foods you can eat, and then a very long list of foods you can't eat, in the psychology literature, what happens inevitably with every cohort, every population, is that as soon as you're given that, that naughty list of foods, your mind very naturally starts wanting to eat those things.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  So then you start feeling these cravings and this desire that has an emotional impact. You start feeling guilty for wanting those things. You start punishing yourself for, for not, for avoiding those things. And then in a few weeks to months, you fall off the wagon. So with every diet, paleo, keto, anything that's considered a diet where you're following a set of rules, you end up having this yo-yo behavior where people end up latching on to a diet, thinking it's going to be the end all be all. They fall off and then they revert back to their their old ways and old habits. And then they find the next fad diet and then they latch on to that. And so Sensei didn't want to perpetuate that. Not only is it unsustainable approach to living, it's not good for you.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  You end up with a slightly disordered relationship with food where you use food as punishment and reward. It's it's not healthy for us in the long run. And so that's why it's open ended. It's kind of more like a choose your own adventure rather than a boot camp where we're going to tell you what to do. And I know what you mean. We get a lot of guests that show up and say, okay, so tell me what to eat. Tell me when to wake up. Tell me what to when to sleep. Where are my supplements? Just tell me what to do. But longevity and wellness don't work like that. It's about the choices you make and learning to teach yourself to be more intentional with those choices. And so that's why Sensei was designed in that way.

• 7:07Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, like I found a lot of things I was questioning. There was scientific backing of why it is the way it is, right? The food thing really threw me for a loop because to me, a big piece of wellness and health is all it is about the the nourishing part, right? That the food also I love to eat, but.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  I'm with you. Yeah, I'm a big proponent of almost food is medicine. I studied Ayurvedic medicine in India, which is, you know, that's kind of a central tenet of that system of thought. But on the flip side, you know, telling someone what to eat removes the joy out of food, removes the sensory appreciation from food. And what we recognize is that no, the sensory aspect of eating is just as important as the macronutrients on your plate. It has to look pretty. It has to be presented beautifully. There's a certain pace to eating that needs to be synchronized with your gastronomy. So you actually are salivating before you eat. And so we take all that into consideration to introduce a more intentional approach to eating.

• 8:11Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I mean, can you talk about more of the science behind that? Because the overall in the program, just to kind of give some differentiation for people, why it is different, because like you said, well, like besides the fact that they're in these beautiful places and the programming is spectacular from, of course, you have the sound baths, you have the yoga, you have all the meditation, even the teacher, I had this other teacher there, which, which again, kind of like threw me for a loop because I thought I had like this one-on-one with him to do like that, I thought like a, like a personal training session, right? But it was a very unique one because it wasn't what I was expecting. I ended up taking off my shoes, he was looking at my feet and he gave me literally like

• 8:55Jen Cohen?

  a, like, like a four-year degree in how my feet are the, is basically where all the power comes in and all my strength comes in. If my feet are not strong, then basically my whole body will fall apart, like my hips, my knees, my joints.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that sounds like Eduardo.

• 9:12Jen Cohen?

  Eduardo, but I'll tell you something, he is not wrong because my feet are weak, they're flat, they are, not to give people too much information, but like my arches are falling, all the things because I work out so hard.

• 9:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:25Jen Cohen?

  But your body breaks down so much quicker if your feet are not properly, if they're not properly worked out, literally. And for longevity, that's like, that's like such, that's so terrible, right? Because how you stay younger, longer is having these strong feet, which is one of these things where I think that people are a mess, they don't realize that. They think, they don't, they just go, go, go, and then when their hip falls or their knees are, they don't go to the, the source of the problem, which is always the feet.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. So that's, I think you hit on the science, actually, and that's what we've tried to incorporate. And Eduardo does it with such warmth, he's really disarming, but he has a way of like cutting right to the heart of the problem.

• 10:09Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 10:10Speaker 02

  But yeah, what we noticed, you know, with these, with our retreats, they're built very intentionally for high performers. And as a high performer, you know, and your audience probably knows that So focused on on a goal, you know, performing, whether it's in the gym, on the field, in a sport, whatever your area, arena of performance is.

• 10:30Jen Cohen?

  Results.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  You're focused on the result and you learn over time to be more resilient, more tolerant of the pain of the, you know, the aches and complaints and whether that's in the workplace or in the gym, right? But what our retreats do is create some space in your mind so you can start noticing that all those little things that you might have overlooked in your pursuit of that goal. So maybe it was your footwear. Maybe you were wearing shoes that were a little too tight. Maybe you didn't really think about your footfall while running and that might be why you're having the knee pain. Maybe there is a lot of tension in your jaw that stems from your ergonomics in your workplace.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  But all of these small details are really almost imperceptible in our day to day life because we build our environments in pursuit of a vision, in pursuit of a goal, because we're trying to achieve something. But to be able to do that for the long haul, like you said, longevity, for a longer, healthier life, you do need occasional resets or retreats where you can take a more mindful approach at things like your footwear or the type of pillow that you sleep on. Maybe the pillow is contributing to your neck pain. There's all of these subtle factors in our environment and our habits, but it really does take stepping away from it all to get that perspective.

• 11:47Jen Cohen?

  Totally. Can you tell us a little bit about your background, how you got involved? Because you said you studied aromatic medicine. You're obviously a physician. Can you just explain to us what your expertise is and the relationship?

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, happy to. I trained as a physician. I got my PhD in genetics, both from Case Western Reserve in Ohio. Oddly enough, and I know we were having some IT challenges at the beginning of the call, so maybe you'll find this amusing. But the reason I got into Sensei was because of technology and data of all things. My background, my research was in the same field of research as Dr. Agus, our co-founder, which is proteomics and genomics. And it was the data and. The intention was to think about human beings on the inside as well as on the outside as complex systems that maybe we don't understand how everything works.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  But maybe if we measure more of it, we can start painting a more complete picture of how human beings work. And that was really what motivated me. And when I came to Sensei, it was the same vision that, you know, our guests as high performers, they, we're, we're all hell bent on figuring out how this world works and making it better in some form or fashion. And we're really analytical and we like to measure everything around us so that we can perform better, faster, harder. And the thought was, well, why don't we take that language of data that really speaks to us and to our guests and use it as a, almost like a mirror to turn that lens inward. Say, why don't we measure you? Why don't we shed some light on how you're doing?

• 13:27Speaker 02

  So a lot of, some of the initial data that we were collecting, basic things like blood pressure and lipid panels that were just surprising, but our guests hadn't had that measured in a while. We had a partnership with Whoop, uh, which was tremendous because then we started collecting real life, real world data, you know, our guests in the wild and their home environments. And we get to see how they're doing and, uh, whether they're doing well or not so well. And then there's some real exciting innovations that Sensei has incubated. One that I'm passionate about is around thermography. And we're using thermal cameras that are used in like a home construction and defense. But again, we're taking that lens and pointing it at the human being and saying, well, why

• 14:09Speaker 02

  don't we look at your thermal patterns and thermal signatures? Why don't we try to understand skin temperature as a biomarker and to tell us, to try and figure out what did that, what does that tell us about what's happening inside of you? And it's really exciting. And so again, I think for me being at Sensei, it, it feels like a culmination of my love of data and technology, but I also get to blend the east and the west. So I, I studied Iri Veda. I have a deep appreciation for traditions and culture and history, and that has a really important place. It always has and it always will in how human beings understand their health and wellness. And you know, here in Mexico now, there's an indigenous system of medicine here in Mexico.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  There are traditional ways that people have thought about health and food and diet. And you have to take those into consideration when you're trying to shift perceptions and minds. When you're trying to introduce healthier eating patterns, when you're trying to incorporate more physical activity, you do have to be considerate of how people grew up and where they came from. And so I enjoy bringing that understanding of eastern traditions and culture, as well as biomedicine into my work at Sensei. And again, before we started, I mentioned, we don't diagnose and treat at our retreats. And so sometimes people wonder, it's like, yeah, well, why do you need a doctor at the helm? It's actually because we say no to a lot of things. I mean, there's just a lot of clinical things in the wellness world that don't have evidence.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  And it's important that we steer people clear of magic bullets and gimmicks that don't work, that aren't proven, that may have some toxicity, that may have side effects, that may not be beneficial for you in the long run. And so that's how I incorporate my medical background here.

• 15:52Jen Cohen?

  So could you talk about that a little bit, like in terms of a lot of the things that don't have any research or background that you guys, you think are kind of myths? Or because the wellness business has become, have you heard this? I've heard this, I just heard this yesterday, that the wellness business has actually become more profitable than big pharma now. Supplement company, all of this. And with social media as well, there's a lot of information, misinformation, and people glom onto it because they're looking for this magic bullet. They want to believe if I take this, that I'm going to get that result. And I'm very, like, I'm a person that I try to uncover this and talk about it as much as possible.

• 16:37Jen Cohen?

  Because we can all fall prey to this. I do all the time. If I see something that's captivating, I'm like, oh, I'll buy it. And then I have to stop myself and realize, oh, maybe that's not the best thing. Can you talk about some of the things that you've seen, that you guys have steered away from? That why you said it's important to have a medical doctor around?

• 16:54Speaker 02

  There's a lot.

• 16:57Jen Cohen?

  Okay, we have time.

• 16:58Speaker 02

  Is there, yeah, what's your favorite topic or disease or supplement at the moment?

• 17:02Jen Cohen?

  I, whatever you think is the most harming that people should be aware of, or things that just aren't just silly, that don't work, that you've kind of encountered.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I mean, our partners are, are hotels, Four Seasons and the Ritz Carlton. I think the one that I get the biggest kick out of are the Ivy drips at the pool.

• 17:20Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  They look sexy and it, and I think there's a fascination with pumping your body full of stuff, but there's no evidence that it works. You know, my team of scientists and researchers, we've pored over the literature, trying to find some, some kernel of truth for why that might make someone feel better. And our best, most informed conclusion is it's because you're well hydrated afterwards. You got pumped full of a liter of water and of course you're going to feel better. But there's no evidence that being injected with B12 is necessary or beneficial for most people. Uh, so that's one. Another one where I'm, I'm really skeptical are peptide injections. And I don't know if you've, you've turned around your cosmetics over the past couple of years,

• 18:06Speaker 02

  but most cosmetics nowadays have proprietary peptides. Peptides are, are short chain amino acids, you know, some building blocks of any protein. And on one hand, they're being studied as a new type of drug, as a vehicle for delivering drugs, because they're so powerful and so potent. And on the other hand, labs are whipping the stuff up. Your cosmetic companies are whipping the stuff up in the lab. I can't find a toxicology report online. And then they put this and they bottle up in a cream and you can put it on your face. And yes, you have outcomes, you, it will reduce your wrinkles, but at what cost? And that's what concerns me is that in the pursuit of call it anti-aging or looking younger,

• 18:49Speaker 02

  or living longer, we're willing to make sacrifices where we don't know the full cost of it. And again, my background was in proteomics. I studied proteins, peptides and amino acids and all the things that they do in the human body. And they're so powerful. So the way that a peptide works is it triggers so many cellular pathways that we scientists don't even understand what cellular pathways and signaling pathways have been triggered by the peptide. It's, it's a little bit of magic at the moment and not, not entirely scientific.

• 19:20Jen Cohen?

  Do you know what I find interesting? Peptides is a big fad right now, right? Like, things kind of, that's a big one. And so what I find very interesting is a lot of the doctors that I speak to offline, who are not involved in social media, they don't even, they're not on there, they don't care, you know, have a, agree with you. They think that the IVs, you just basically pee out whatever you're getting because you're getting such an abundant amount. And so it's basically just a money grab, you know, like the three, $400 and you're gonna, it's completely not worth it. And the peptides, the problem with the peptides, and that's why they've been, they're not, there's like laws against a lot of them. People think it's because the pharma is trying to control it,

• 20:03Jen Cohen?

  but people, and maybe that's true, I'm not saying it is or not, but, you know, a concern is, you, there is not enough back research to know what the outcomes are because they haven't been around long enough.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  No. And plus, many of them are proprietary. So in Sensei's work, as we look at skincare and try to find evidence-based skincare products for our customers, there's been so many brands we've said no to because they concocted this chemical in their lab. There's no published, peer-reviewed toxicology report that we can stand behind, that we can believe in. And, yeah, and I think that's, that's unfortunate, but on the other hand, I feel like the consumer, maybe because of podcasts like this, I think consumers are becoming more informed and discerning. They're looking for transparency in ingredients and manufacturing and quality. And I feel like that's part of Sensei's mission, is to keep educating and informing our listeners so that they can make more informed choices.

• 20:59Jen Cohen?

  One thing I found very interesting when I was there, I had this back and forth with one of your employees because I went to use the sauna, the, you know, infrared sauna, and it was cold in there. I'm telling you, it was cold in there, okay? I'm, it was literally, I'm like, can we put it on? And they're like, oh, it's the highest that we can put it. And I'm like, the highest? I'm like, literally, I need to go get a towel and wrap it around me. It was cold. She's like, what, she said 140 was the highest. I was like, first of all, I had the same sauna, I have the same sauna.

• 21:30Jen Cohen?

  At home. And my problem with the sauna that I have is that it's too cold. It goes up to one seventy and it takes a long time to go up to one seventy and it still doesn't get me hot enough. And she's like, oh, all the research proves that your body is it's it's from the inside out, core temperature, all these things. And if you don't have to sweat, like I push back on that a little bit. I push back on that one.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  Thank you. I think that may be a bug, might be an error.

• 21:56Jen Cohen?

  It is. I don't think she was very adamant. And then the next time someone else said also that they they could only put it up to a certain temperature.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  Cause no, so if you you have one, so you know the and um and I appreciate you bringing that up to me. And uh.

• 22:12Jen Cohen?

  It's silly, but not really, right?

• 22:13Speaker 02

  But it's important. No, it's important to understand that. Yeah. And it's so, you know, one point where you're correct, it it doesn't saunas don't raise your core body temperature. Actually, our core body temperature doesn't change unless you have an infection or there's something really dire happening. But when you take a cold plunge or you're in a sauna, it's it is peripheral temperature, it's skin temperature that's being modulated. So I think that's with infrared radiation. It is true that infrared radiation from infrared sauna does penetrate below the skin, but it is inconclusive if that's why it's beneficial for your health or more or less beneficial than traditional sauna. From again, from the science and evidence, I think it's just a different mechanism of heat and heat and radiant heat production.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  A little less air pollution in an infrared sauna versus a traditional charcoal sauna. But you're absolutely right. It needs to get you hot and you need to be sweating and you need to do it for fifteen minutes so that your heart rate is pounding. And I I like to be a little dizzy by the time I step out of a sauna.

• 23:13Jen Cohen?

  That's what I say. Like, that's why right now the the push is actually to get away from the the ones with the red light, infrared ones, and to get the ones that are wood burning. And they go way hotter. They go to like two twenty, some of them. You can die in one of those. But that's but most of the research I've seen is really based around the science behind the wood burning ones from Finland.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  That's exactly right.

• 23:36Jen Cohen?

  Right? So the ones with the the the red infrared, like, there is a lot of people are like, this is not getting me hot enough. I gotta sit in here for forty five minutes to even like get it beat.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  It's efficient, yeah.

• 23:46Jen Cohen?

  It's efficient, right? I had to just ask about that because I I swear that I was like, I'm not wrong on this one.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  You're not wrong on that one. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for for pointing that out, actually. And it's important.

• 23:58Jen Cohen?

  Thank you.

• 24:04Jen Cohen?

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• 24:46Jen Cohen?

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• 25:13Jen Cohen?

  Can you give me some other things that you've, that data, some things, science-backed, data-based stuff that you've kind of, you know about that is kind of integrated into the program? Or by the way, not, it's just, you know, someone like you who's very data-related.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  Gosh, yeah, I mean, it's fascinating. So I'll give you just like some fresh hot takes, I guess, because I'm here in Cabo, like, you know, we just opened our operation. I'm literally testing some of the equipment on myself yesterday. So there's, there's some fascinating, maybe we can talk about thermography.

• 25:51Jen Cohen?

  I wrote that down because I am fascinated by thermography. You've said that that's something that you guys are doing. What is it? Could you explain what it is?

• 25:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is, it's fascinating. But it's a, I don't know if you've ever seen a thermal image or a heat map, but a thermal camera has a special type of infrared sensor, and so it detects infrared radiation. You know, they use it in, gosh, I mean, in home construction so they can look behind, like through the wall in a way and identify leaks or, you know, gaps and insulation. But when you point an infrared sensor at the human body, what you're looking at in that heat map of the human body is heat dissipation from the skin, which is an indicator of differences in circulation. So you see hot spots, which could mean vasodilation. There's more blood in those areas. You can see cold spots. What's fascinating is that

• 26:43Speaker 02

  we're beginning to correlate those hot spots and cold spots to muscular imbalances and asymmetries. So the muscles that you overuse and, you know, overused muscles can be because either you're working out too hard or you're holding a lot of stress or tension in a certain muscle, you know. So for instance, I mean, what's a good example? So hamstrings in runners are a good example of an underused muscle. They tend to be kind of chronically shortened, right? Even in most of us, as we're sitting all day, so we have kind of that, they call that superior cross body position where our pectoral, pectoralis and our chest muscles are tightened and constricted, our backs are extended. But when we start looking at the

• 27:28Speaker 02

  thermography data, we can start seeing that. And I saw it in myself. So my sternocleidomastoid on my right side was flaming red, like hotter than on my left side. And it's because there's no normative data on thermography, there's not like age and gender databases of thermal data. We have to use internal control. So we compare our left and right sides to figure out what's happening on the right side of your skin versus your left side. So my right sternocleidomastoid was incredibly tight, which was, but it was incredibly hot. So it indicated either there's some inflammation or a lot of tension that is holding here. Then the exercise physiologist guide here, Brenda, she took me through a functional

• 28:10Speaker 02

  movement screen. And in the functional movement screen, as I was trying to touch my hands behind my back, I know she noticed that there was asymmetries in my ability to reach behind my back. And then We noticed some hotspots in my deltoids. And so through that kind of working through the data, what we identified is that there are some opportunities, let's call them opportunities, in the way that I'm exercising in the gym. And again, this is one of those things where it's like, okay, I know a lot. I think I know how to exercise and yet, maybe I'm overdoing it. Maybe there isn't enough variety in my routine because I'm developing tension in muscles that you don't want tension in. Tension in your sternocleidomastoid is

• 28:54Speaker 02

  going to extend up into my jaw. Like in a week, I'll probably get cracking in my jaw from all that tension. And I'm really happy I caught it early. But now I need to spend a little bit more time with a coach to figure out, how do I introduce some more variety and more balance into my workout routine and maybe change the ergonomics of my desk setup at home. So I'm not holding so much tension there.

• 29:14Jen Cohen?

  Well, I think it's always good to have someone who points things out like that because even like, listen, Tiger Woods had a coach, right? Michael Jordan had a coach. Like, you know, we tend to do what we are good at, right? I'm like very, I dominate on the things I'm good at and the things I'm not so good at, I just don't do them.

• 29:33Speaker 02

  Then that's human nature. We just avoid them. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's exactly right.

• 29:37Jen Cohen?

  Right? Like, you know, I like to do squats, so I'll do squats, but I hate to do, you know, planks. So I'm not going to do, right? Like, people naturally are going to do what they're good at, what they like. And that's how we get really bad imbalances, right? And so for that reason, I think it's really important. But, you know, what I wanted to ask you again, I want to push back a little bit because of something else, data. And I do this with myself, too, because I've done all of it, right? I've done the whoops, I've done the aural rings. If you look at my, if you look at my office or my house, it looks like a Costco with all the boxes all the way up, everything you can possibly

• 30:17Jen Cohen?

  imagine, every gadget and nook and cranny. And what I noticed was, the more I was basically tracking, the more stressed I got. And I think if you were a data person, you can look at the data and notice that Like people become obsessed over their numbers like you know you're tracking your sleep and then you're gonna sleep terribly because you're constantly looking and see did you sleep okay versus just sleeping right?

• 30:44Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 30:44Jen Cohen?

  Do you believe that there is a point where too much knowledge or too much you know information getting becomes actually a detriment versus a positive?

• 30:55Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I'm I'm like you. So I wore the whoop for a year, took it off, lived without it for without anything for a while, then tried the aura for a while, took that off. Now I've got an Apple Watch, but I'm not using it for health tracking.

• 31:08Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just use it. You know, I do look at my heart rate when I'm in the gym to make sure I'm hitting certain zones, but that's about it. I think data and wearables feels like a, what's the word, like training wheels in a way to to notice parts of your lifestyle and behavior that you may not have noticed before. But the reason that it becomes we fixate it, fixate on it when we start wearing it, I think is because of how partly it's a little bit of the maybe the shock and the awe, like you don't realize that you're sleeping poorly until you start measuring it, or you don't realize that maybe you're not pushing yourself as hard in your runs until you start measuring your heart rate and you realize, oh, you have some room to go.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  That's that's what it was like for me. But but then that initial moment of awareness, it does turn into a fixation. And again, from the psychology of well being, we know that that fix that external locus of control isn't good for you in the long run, but ultimately needs to be an internal locus of control that you need to want to go to sleep or on time and wake up early because you want to, not because you're feeling guilty of not hitting a certain recovery score or strain score on your device. But the journey starts with that. It starts with kind of that emotional kind of game of like learning about the data, gamifying it for yourself. But what we notice and what the wearable companies have told us is eventually everyone takes it off and everyone switches because each wearable

• 32:35Speaker 02

  is right for a person at a certain point in their life and then they learn how to live life. You know, informed by the data and then they take it off and then maybe they live without it and they move to the next thing and and then life changes and. So sometimes the wearables come back, sometimes the data comes back and uh probably when you least expect them.

• 32:54Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I think that you could become obsessed with it, but I do believe it's good for some some type of accountability at the beginning. And knowledge based, like I think, but like, like everything, right? Like eventually you're gonna take, you know, kind of just use your own gut. Because it becomes, it it actually becomes a more of a, in my opinion, a more of a detriment. Unless you're somebody who's like a professional athlete and an Olympian, then have to meet certain marks. For like you hit certain things to, you know, win the gold, you know, like you've got to track things for these. But for the everyday person, I think it's become, it's getting out of hand, like, you know, now everyone's walking around with a glucose monitor, like.

• 33:36Speaker 02

  I was about to mention.

• 33:37Jen Cohen?

  Right? Like, are you a diabetic? Like, this is becoming an absurd thing. Like, most people should not be wearing one.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  That's right. And I mean, the the CGMs, they have like a a half life, you know, you only keep them on for a week or two and then you gotta switch it out. And so like naturally, after a couple of weeks, if you're switching it out, maybe you get tired of it and just keep it off. But what I've observed is like, yeah, even with CGMs, there's that moment initially where you're suddenly measuring. Or suddenly, you know, the the glycemic index is brought to life because you're noticing the spike in your blood sugar after eating a. Apple or a cookie or whatever it is. And so I think that's, I almost feel like that's enough. Like that that emotional moment of like shock and awe when you see your glucose, like that's enough to.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  Open your eyes and you start shifting your behavior and then eventually, I don't think you need the data for very long.

• 34:31Jen Cohen?

  Yeah. One other question I have for you is, what is, have you seen, what's your take on plasma, people who are taking plasma? It's like, kind of like, um, it's an IV course to get the plasma and it takes out all the toxins, heavy metals. Out of your body. A lot of my friends are doing it and they're walking away with like these like 10 pound bags of their own plasma. That's, I I, do you know what I'm talking about?

• 34:55Speaker 02

  I know what you're talking about. It's plasma ferocis, right? So they they take your plasma, they filter it all out and then. Put it back inside of you or they give it to you so you can.

• 35:04Jen Cohen?

  What are you gonna do with it?

• 35:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so. This is another interesting one where there's, you know, there's some science and there's some voodoo to plasmapheresis. So the science is that our plasma does become chock full of antibodies to all the things that we're exposed to. So I have a friend that works and is developing some technology based off of that principle. That because of all of those antibodies floating around in your plasma, you know, we can, we can filter out the ones we don't need. So potentially reducing autoimmune responses. Alternatively, you can introduce antibodies and things into the plasma that, uh, that could be good for you. So there is some science and merit to that. I don't think that the

• 35:54Speaker 02

  technology and the intervention, however, is there yet for mass consumption. You know, like plasmapheresis in the med spa, I, I don't trust that.

• 36:03Jen Cohen?

  Is it dangerous?

• 36:04Speaker 02

  You know, with every intravenous procedure, there are some risks and side effects. I think what I'm more worried about is a quality control in the med spas and clinics that are running this procedure. I haven't, and again, I haven't personally looked at the equipment and the technology and the manufacturers and the protocols, but as a scientist and physician, that would be my foremost concern is the quality control on this, stuff that you're putting directly into my system. And again, so they're gonna, they're saying they're filtering your plasma, but where's the QC? Like how, where's the guarantee that you've taken out what you're saying you're taking out? And you're really putting in what you're saying you're putting in? So there's just, it's an unregulated

• 36:47Speaker 02

  protocol, kind of an unregulated industry. So that's what makes me concerned.

• 36:51Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I understand that. I know you're gonna catch a flight, so I'm gonna let you go. Thank you, Dr. Michelle, because this was very important and I appreciate your time and I apologize again for the the snafu of technology prior. So I hope you forgive me for that.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  Of course, I forgive you. Yeah, I am, like as I said, I got my, you know, I have a love of data and technology. And so I'm I'm much more forgiving of IT challenges because I'm I live with many of them and I handle many of them. But Jennifer, this was a pleasure. It was great to chat with you. Always a pleasure to chat with a guest. I'm so glad that you had the good fortune of visiting Lanai and that you got to experience that for yourself.

• 37:29Jen Cohen?

  Oh, it was amazing and I recommend it to anybody and everybody because it was one of the one of the nicest experiences in the wellness facility that I've been to. What, you know, I was gonna say, are they all the same, by the way, like the one, besides the fact that you partner with different hotels for, you know, whatever reason, is the programming the same everywhere or?

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Programming, we try to keep that mostly the same. Yeah. So the evidence-based principles being data-driven, focusing on movement, nourishment and rest. But then, as you probably noticed, each place has its own charm, its own energy, its own culture, and that I think that, you know, adds some variety to the different locations. You'll have to come visit us in Mexico. I think we've got a really special place and a really special team here.

• 38:15Jen Cohen?

  Oh, my God, I would love to go there. Love, love, love, love, love. Check out the, well, check out Sensei. It's even go on their website and check it out, all their different offerings. It is a really great experience if you're into health, wellness, longevity, and all the things health. So thank you again for being with me today.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  My pleasure, Jennifer.