Bogg Bag: Kim Vaccarella. The $100 Million Business She Almost Abandoned

Kim’s inspiration to launch a business came from an unlikely source: Her son’s Crocs. She thought the durable, washable material would make a great beach bag. So she designed one. But after investing her savings—inlcuding some of her kids’ college fund—Kim was crushed when her first major shipment of Bogg bags was defective. It knocked her so off balance, that she put the entire business on hold. Then something unexpected happened. The few thousand customers who already had a bag….clamored for more. So Kim decided to start over. She borrowed $120,000, found another factory, shared trade show booths with four other founders, and slowly built Bogg Bag into a $100 million phenomenon. What you'll learn: How getting nowhere with Crocs gave Kim the motivation to make Bogg Bag herself. Why her first $30,000 production run nearly killed the company. Why a founder isn’t always the best judge of her product How Superstorm Sandy gave new life to Bogg Bag How Kim built Bogg Bag for years while keeping her full-time job and raising two kids. How COVID turned Bogg Bag from a beach product into a “beach and beyond” product. How Kim got a massive acquisition offer–and why she turned it down. Why Kim thinks Bogg Bag can eventually become a billion-dollar brand. Chapters: 06:36 - Growing up without financial security 08:17 - From high-school dropout to a six-figure career 17:19 - Reading “Mommy Millionaire” and dreaming of inventing something 19:41 - The Crocs-on-the-beach moment 24:56 - Kim hits a wall with Crocs, so she decides to make Bogg Bag herself 33:33 - The early prototypes and a nervous visit to a boutique: “I don’t know what this is, but I think I need it.” 41:16 - The first big shipment, a $30,000 defect, and a decision to pull the plug 47:13 - A massive natural disaster presents an opportunity 52:15 - “Now I gotta make this damn bag” 54:45 - A factory showdown in China 59:52 - Starting over with $120,000 01:01:51 - The trade-show “timeshare” in a tiny booth 01:07:12 - Finally quitting her day job 01:10:42 - COVID boosts the business 01:13:28 - The acquisition offer that could have changed everything 01:23:40 - Learning to lead a much bigger company 01:26:13 - The dream of a family legacy This episode was produced by J. C. Howard, with music by Ramtin Arablouei. Edited by Neva Grant, with research help from Sam Paulson. Follow How I Built This: Instagram → @howibuiltthis https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis/ X → @HowIBuiltThis https://x.com/howibuiltthis Facebook → How I Built This https://www.facebook.com/howibuiltthis Follow Guy Raz: Instagram → @guy.raz https://www.instagram.com/guy.raz/ Youtube →guy_raz https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNSfrxNEmCruNtjIzxCBHjg X → @guyraz https://x.com/guyraz Substack →https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/guyraz.substack.com__;!! Iwwt! RZoD751oWzUzoqqdJiqaoL6HdJfRHDUO1TKvYJ424d3Udn7-Pw9Nj6nEsauh9zcgEvLjUEc$guyraz.substack.com http://guyraz.substack.com/ Website →https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/guyraz.substack.com__;!! Iwwt! RZoD751oWzUzoqqdJiqaoL6HdJfRHDUO1TKvYJ424d3Udn7-Pw9Nj6nEsauh9zcgEvLjUEc$guyraz.com http://guyraz.com/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

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• 0:45Guy Raz?

  build the prototype, analyze the market, maybe even come up with the idea, what separates the people who actually build something from everyone else? I don't have a clean answer yet, so I've been sitting with it with Claude. There's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/HIBT. We get support from US Bank. A question I love asking founders. What's the one decision you almost didn't make? The one that changed everything? Because it's never the obvious stuff. It's never, I decided to start a company. It's the small, boring, Tuesday afternoon decision you barely remember making

• 1:27Guy Raz?

  until you realize it's the reason everything after it either worked or didn't. Say you're 18 months in. Business is growing. You've got expenses coming from six directions. Gas for the van, office supplies, your phone bill, team lunches that are actually client meetings, and you're putting it all on whatever card you grabbed in year one. You're not thinking about it. Why would you? You've got bigger problems. But here's the thing. Path A, you keep going like that. End of the year, you're sorting through statements, trying to figure out what went where. You've left hundreds, maybe thousands on the table in rewards you never earned, money that could have gone back into the business.

• 2:07Guy Raz?

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• 3:37Guy Raz?

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• 4:20Guy Raz?

  I'm thinking about getting in, filling up, and getting on with my day. And it reminds me a little bit of the founders I talked to on this show, because the best ones obsess over things their customers will never see. Tiny details, invisible improvements, relentless iteration. And not because anyone's watching, but because it makes the product better. That's what the mobile brand does. It engineers fuel the same way great founders engineer their products. Mobile Supreme Plus Premium Gas helps keep engines three times cleaner, which can mean better performance and improved gas mileage. It's for people who care about what's under the hood, even if they never see it. Three times cleaner compared to mobile regular gas in port fuel-injected engines.

• 5:05Guy Raz?

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• 5:21Speaker 01

  I went in there with like, this is what's going to happen. This is what you're going to do for me. And basically, they were like, no, you need to take these bags first so that we have more room in the factory, so that we can make you more bags. And I said, I'm not taking any of these bags. And the guy said, well, we'll just sell them then. We'll just sell them on our own. We'll just sell them on our own. Doesn't matter that you own it, created it, whatever. We'll just sell them on our own. And I just turned to him and I said, I will burn this effing factory to the ground. My husband's like, you need to calm down. And I said, if you sell them, I will burn your factory to the ground. And I left.

• 6:10Guy Raz?

  Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.

• 6:21Guy Raz?

  I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how Kim Baccarella set out to build a better beach bag, gave up on it too early, and then got back in the game to grow Bog Bag into a multimillion-dollar brand.

• 6:40Guy Raz?

  One of the biggest challenges for any entrepreneur is knowing when to quit. When the business isn't making money, or it's just not working, when do you say, I'm done? Well, for Kim Baccarella, that decision came just one year into her business. She'd invented a beach bag she called the Bog Bag. The idea was inspired by Crocs, the shoes, a bag that was sturdy and washable. Anyway, she scraped together whatever cash she had to launch it in 2011. And she managed to sell a few hundred and even get some buzz at a few trade shows. But then disaster struck. Her first big shipment arrived from China, about $30,000 worth of product.

• 7:24Guy Raz?

  And most of the bags were defective. Making matters worse, the manufacturer wouldn't refund the money. It was a devastating financial blow. So Kim ditched the business and went back to focusing on her day job. Except, the people who had acquired a bag, well, they loved them and they wanted more. And so Kim started to realize that maybe she ditched the idea too early. She was focused on what was wrong with the product, but her customers were focused on everything that was right with it. So eventually, Kim was inspired to give it another try. And she borrowed $120,000 to find a new manufacturer and start over.

• 8:07Guy Raz?

  But for years, Bog Bag was a grind. Kim couldn't afford her own booth at trade shows, so she would squeeze into a single booth with four other founders. She even kept her day job working at a commercial real estate lending office. And it wasn't until about seven years into the business that she finally felt confident enough to leave that job. Today, Bog Bag has sold close to 5 million bags and generates more than $100 million a year in sales. You can find them at Target, Nordstrom's, Dick's Sporting Goods, pretty much everywhere. But those numbers don't really capture this story. Along the way, there were years of doubt. There was depression. There was enormous strain on her family.

• 8:51Guy Raz?

  And there were also moments when Kim, who, as you'll hear, is not exactly shy, got angry. She got stubborn. She pushed back. And sometimes, that was exactly what she needed to do to keep going. Kim Baccarella grew up in Ridgewood, New Jersey, in the 1970s and 80s. Her stepdad was a police officer, and her mom was a waitress. And Kim says she understood from a pretty young age that money was tight and that financial security was never something you could just assume would be there.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  While my parents provided for me in the way that a parent should provide,

• 9:28Guy Raz?

  Sure.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  there were things that were misses, things that like when I wanted to be a cheerleader and to be a cheerleader in Ridgewood, it was expensive and it sounds so ridiculous, but you needed to decorate the football player's house the night before the game. And it wasn't just, you know, put a banner up on his door. You need to give him treats and a basket. And, and sometimes there was even alcohol included, like you'd give him like a bottle of champagne or something like this. So

• 9:55Guy Raz?

  And you had to buy all this stuff.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  You had to buy all this stuff and I was not, you know, able to secure the funds for that. And, and it started down a very scary path where sometimes I would have to, um, let's say, find the items that I needed to, to do this. Yeah.

• 10:14Guy Raz?

  So, so it sounds like you knew that financial security, which you did not have growing up, was something that you were going to pursue, however, however, it was gonna happen.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  100%. And it's, it started even earlier than then. I, you know, I remember I would pick daisies and put them in Styrofoam cups and decorate the Styrofoam cup and try to sell them door to door. And, um, you know, in junior high school, I would buy packs of bubble gum for 25 cents and I would sell each piece for 25 cents. So I was, you know, my profit margin was huge, um, until I got caught and threatened to be suspended. And then, you know, I, I could have been a millionaire in middle school, but, um, that got cut short.

• 10:58Guy Raz?

  Was college something that was, I, I know you graduated high school around, I think, 88. Was college something that was, uh, expected of you that you would go to college and, and, you know, have a professional life? Was that sort of how you, what you were expected to do and how you thought of yourself?

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Um, no, it wasn't discussed ever. Um, my guidance counselor told me I would be dead in a gutter before college appeared.

• 11:27Guy Raz?

  Because you were not a good student in high school or what?

• 11:30Speaker 01

  I was, you know, ADD. I, I couldn't focus. I didn't want to be bothered. And actually I didn't graduate in 88. I ended up dropping out of high school. I had spent a very short stint in Florida with my biological father. And I came back and when I came back to school, I was even dumber because the Fort Lauderdale school system was so far behind the Ridgewood school system that they wouldn't advance me. And at that point I was 17, going on 18, I believe, and would have been a junior. And I was like, I'm done. I'm just gonna go work.

• 12:08Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And wait tables?

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Wait tables, um, bartend in the eighties or late eighties and early nineties in North Jersey, you know, clubs were the thing. So you could make a lot of money fast. So I worked in every, any club that would take me and I was good. I would wait tables. I would sling drinks. I would do whatever I needed to do.

• 12:31Guy Raz?

  This is not easy work, right? I mean, you're a young woman, you're, you're waiting tables, you're, I mean, I can't even imagine the kinds of things that people said or there are the, the, the treatment that you experienced, right? But I also imagine it made you really tough.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've, I've always been. I think if, you know, uh, if you asked my parents at the time, I was always tough. Um, maybe I was a bitch. I, I don't know, but I just had this, you know, it was tough growing up in Ridgewood when you saw people that had more than you. So I had to have this level of toughness because it was what I knew, right? So it's how I survived at that time and that continued on.

• 13:17Guy Raz?

  You know, I'm, just as an aside, years ago, we had Mark Cuban on the show telling us a story of broadcast.com. And I asked him if he lost everything and he was dropped onto a desert island, how, what would he do? And he said, the first thing I would do is get a job bartending because that's how he started in Dallas. He was a bartender. Um, and he worked during the day as a sales guy, but you could make a lot in tips at night. And if you had the energy, you could do another job during the day.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, and I did that. I mean, one of the funniest, probably one of the funniest, once I started my 26 year career in commercial real estate lending, I would literally work at night in the beginning, but I would also sometimes, I worked at a ground round in Hackensack, New Jersey.

• 13:56Guy Raz?

  Oh, ground round. Yeah.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  And I would go over there at lunchtime sometimes and play a clown for kids' birthday parties on my lunch hour because it was quick, easy money.

• 14:07Guy Raz?

  Yeah. All right. So you are doing a lot of jobs where you, you make tips. And I think around 1992, uh, so you'd have been in your early twenties, you get a job at a commercial real estate lending office. Um, is, is that right? What, what, and what did you do there?

• 14:28Speaker 01

  So I started, I was a secretary and I would answer phones and eventually I would start doing the books. And then I would start working with and building relationships with the high net worth individuals. Then I started doing the spreadsheets and the rate of returns. And then I moved into a controller role. And at a certain point, I had reached a hundred thousand dollars a year and I

• 14:50Guy Raz?

  Which probably was amazing, right?

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Which was amazing. And it was like a million dollars to me at the time.

• 14:55Guy Raz?

  Okay. And you started a family, right? You, you got married and you had kids. Tell me a little bit about your family, about, um, yeah, tell me a little bit about it.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. So I met my husband when I was 27 in, ta-da, a bar. Um, I, I knew friends of his and I went out with a group of friends one night and he was there and he seemed very upset and I was talking to him and he, he and his girlfriend had just broken up. And, um, you know, after that, we, we started dating and we got engaged a year and a half later.

• 15:33Guy Raz?

  Okay. So you get married and it's now we're 27 years later. You're still married, right?

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 15:40Guy Raz?

  Okay. And what's your husband's name?

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Rosario.

• 15:42Guy Raz?

  Rosario. Okay. And he eventually becomes a police officer, right?

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:48Guy Raz?

  And, and so, and I think you guys have two kids, right? Eventually you have one and then another one.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Four years later, I have another one. Yes.

• 15:56Guy Raz?

  And so that's basically your life, I guess, right? From sort of, you know, the year 2000 on, you guys are building a family. He's building a career as a police officer. You've got your career in commercial real estate, also juggling kids.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:11Guy Raz?

  You, you know, it was a good life, right? You know, this was our life. We've got a good family, good careers, and that's great. We've done pretty well.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, but there was always more. Like, I just wanted so much more. I wanted experiences. I wanted my children to have experiences that I may not have had, that I had heard about other people having.

• 16:35Guy Raz?

  Like go travel overseas or something?

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Not even overseas at this point. Like take his parents who had never been out of New Jersey to Disney World with our kids when they were younger. You know, those are memories that we'll, we'll cherish forever. And, you know, just seeing even my husband who had never been to Disney World, I mean, bawling, like a, standing, looking at the castle, you know, holding my son. Like, I mean, I guess the easiest way to say it, I wanted it all.

• 17:04Guy Raz?

  Yeah. But you were doing things that you could do within your means.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  Right. I, I've lived within my means. I mean, I still get like embarrassed over things, you know, like if I wanted something really, really bad forever and I finally get it, like I get embarrassed about it. Um, I just wanted, I, I wanted to continue to build. I knew I was at a, um, where I was never going to be a 200,000 or a $300,000 a year person at the commercial real estate lending. So even while I had the kids and my husband worked 12 hour night shifts, you know, I would still sit up at night and I would make baskets and I would buy things and resell them on eBay.

• 17:48Guy Raz?

  So you were always, you always had some kind of side hustle or you, or an idea for a side hustle?

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Always. You know, I first started with, one of my favorite stories is my son got as a gift, a pair of Elmo slippers and I believe they were $5.99. And when I tell you my son wore these every day, I mean, he wore them out. I threw them in the washing machine and they pluffed up really nice. And I was like, oh, this is great. I'm gonna put this on eBay.

• 18:15Guy Raz?

  Oh, after he was no longer using?

• 18:17Speaker 01

  After he couldn't fit them. And my, my second son wasn't born yet. So I sold them on eBay for $20. And I was like, this is insanity. So I would buy and resell clothing.

• 18:27Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  And I would go to Target when Target would have launches with like Missoni or like any one of those big, huge launches. I would buy as much stuff as I could fit into my car and I would resell it.

• 18:41Guy Raz?

  On eBay?

• 18:43Speaker 01

  On eBay. Yeah. At, at the time it was all eBay. And now I hate it as a, as a person who has a product. I hate the idea of the reseller, but I, I applaud it too. You know, it's like that, that tough line.

• 18:57Guy Raz?

  So you're doing that. And so you really are, I can see how you were just bursting to find something.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:07Guy Raz?

  But, but not necessarily like, oh, I'm gonna start a business. It was like, it was resourceful. It's like, I can, I can arbitrage these and sell as, you know, sell on eBay, right? It was, it was that kind of stuff. But, but were you, were you also thinking about, well, maybe I could start a business? Like, did that ever come to your mind?

• 19:27Speaker 01

  No, I didn't think I had any business, starting a business. I had no experience. I didn't think I was smart enough. I didn't think I'd be taken serious enough. I had, I didn't think that there was more to me, but I was gonna keep trying.

• 19:41Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Okay. Let's go back to 2008 roughly, because I think this was the year when you got the inspiration for what, what you would eventually create. Um, it would take some time. Tell me what you remember about having this idea for a different kind of bag?

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I had started reading some books and I'm not a reader, unfortunately. But I started reading like How to Make a Million Dollars, Millionaire Mommy, and like different books like that. And most of them at the time were come up with an idea, patent it, and make a million dollars.

• 20:24Guy Raz?

  Oh, and then sell it to some company or something?

• 20:26Speaker 01

  And sell it.

• 20:26Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  So this was my new path. I was not looking to build a business because...

• 20:32Guy Raz?

  Let me come up with an idea, patent it, and I'll sell it to somebody who makes this thing already.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 20:37Guy Raz?

  Or get royalties or whatever, yeah.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and gibbets at the time, the little things for the Crocs shoes, had just done a $20 million deal.

• 20:45Guy Raz?

  The charms that you put on Crocs, that company that made those, they sold to Crocs around 2008 for around $20 million, something like that.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  It was somewhere in and around that timeframe, yes. But they had sold for $20 million. And this was literally a woman in Colorado weaving daisies through the holes of the shoes. And then people started asking her to do it to their shoes. And then her husband, from what I remember, her husband had some manufacturing experience. And he's like, hey, we can make these little things. And they ended up selling this.

• 21:16Guy Raz?

  I mean, can you imagine, by the way, how much Crocs is made off of that acquisition? I mean, those things kind of made Crocs, right? Because I remember my kids, they would collect those things and just like, right? I mean, that was, that was, and it is a huge part of Crocs. Okay, so you knew that story and you thought, hey, could I come up with something that I could sell to somebody like the gibbets people did?

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. And my boys were very active, a lot of sports. But we also loved to spend a lot of time at the beach and my...

• 21:48Guy Raz?

  The Jersey Shore, I'm assuming?

• 21:49Speaker 01

  The Jersey Shore. And going to the Jersey Shore is an all-day event. You need, you have to bring out everything that you're gonna need for the entire day because you have to claim real estate first thing in the morning. You need to set up, you need to make it. You usually go back, have breakfast, coffee, whatever. And then you're bringing everything back with you. So, you know, I was never finding the right beach bag because I would literally use them once or twice. I'm an obsessive coffee drinker. And I would spill things on the beach bags. My kids would get their dirty hands on it, there's sand in it. So, you know, all of these things culminated in like, I need a beach bag that's going to work. And I was not into the Crocs phase. I did not like them.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  But we went to a surf shop. We were going to Great Adventure for the day and my kids forgot their sneakers. And I'm like, I am not going to Great Adventure in flip flops for you. Like, that's not happening.

• 22:44Guy Raz?

  I've been there as a parent. My kids are wearing flip flops and like, what are you doing?

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm like, you need some kind of closed-toed shoes.

• 22:50Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  So it was either I spent $100 on a pair of Nike skate sneakers that they didn't want, or I bought them the Crocs. So I bought them the Crocs. And we went and they worked fine. And the next day, we're sitting on the beach again. And I'm just playing with these shoes and I'm feeling the material. It kind of gets like warm, but it doesn't get hot. It's a little pliable, like you can kind of pull on it. It's not stretchy, but you can feel it. And I was just intrigued by the material. And, you know, my husband and I were talking and I was like, this is what a beach bag should be made of. You can wash it off at the end of the day, just like you could the Crocs. So I went back that night. You know, we probably left the beach at like 6 o'clock at night.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  And I started looking on the internet and there was nothing like it that existed. And I was like, this is something really cool. And I drew, and I have no artistic ability at all. And I drew out exactly what I wanted to see. And it was very utilitarian. It was square, it was open, so you can get in and out of there. But it had structured sides and it had a non-tip bottom. And I had from that minute what this bag needed to be and needed to look like.

• 24:04Guy Raz?

  So, okay, it was the material. And the material of Crocs is this like EVA material. It's similar to the foam in like sneakers, right? It's this pliable foam that is moldable. And I'm curious that you, like, you went home and designed this. So you must have been excited about this idea. You must have thought, were you the kind of person that got excited about a bunch of different ideas? And like you did this with other ideas? Or was this really different?

• 24:35Speaker 01

  This was different only because I had the Crocs, or the gibbet story in one ear.

• 24:43Guy Raz?

  Yes.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  And then I was like, hey, like, but if they got $20 million for these little pieces of plastic, I ought to get $50 million for my bag.

• 24:53Guy Raz?

  For your, so your idea, if I might be jumping to conclusions here, is that I'm going to design a bag and come up with a concept and then sell the idea to Crocs and they can buy it from me?

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 25:06Guy Raz?

  That was what you're thinking at that point? Okay.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Yes. I mean, listen, it was, it was a long process. But I immediately, because of what I read in that book...

• 25:15Guy Raz?

  In these books, yeah.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  I had to get a patent.

• 25:18Guy Raz?

  That's what the book said to do, patent your idea first.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Right, patent your idea first. Don't tell anybody about it. I even sent a letter to myself because that was like a recommendation in one of the books. It's like, write yourself a letter with your idea and send it to yourself and don't open it and have it date stamped.

• 25:35Guy Raz?

  You were not interested in making this yourself or starting a business? It was the idea was...

• 25:39Speaker 01

  No, how was I gonna make it myself? I'd like, look at it. It's like insane, like how am I going to make this myself? So that, that thought did not even cross my mind in the early stages. My thought was, let me get the patent. So because I worked in commercial real estate, I knew a lot of real estate attorneys. Real estate attorneys know other attorneys. So I was turned on to a boutique patent attorney in New York. And eventually we would get two design and two utility patents filed. And then once those were filed, right? And I had the application number for them, it could take two years for those things to come out. But I knew that once it was filed, I was free to kind of talk about it.

• 26:23Guy Raz?

  This is an expensive process. I mean, to hire a patent attorney, especially when, you know, money was not like free flowing in your house, this is gonna cost anywhere from $5,000 to $25,000, maybe more dollars.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, you know, one thing I always knew how to do was negotiate. So I would negotiate the best rates that I possibly could get. And unfortunately, it came at the expense of, you know, some other things that I may have wanted to do. But, you know, at one point, we took out a pension loan from my husband's pension. I used some of the money, we didn't get to save a lot, but neither my husband or I went to college. So we for sure wanted to make sure that our kids were able to go to four years and not have to pay for it. So I started pulling from that a little bit. But I've always had this, it'll be all right. I'll make this work.

• 27:20Guy Raz?

  Okay, so your idea is to sell your design. And the design is this kind of square-bottomed bag that had a washable, you know, made out of this EVA material like Crocs. And so, did you start to call potential buyers to pitch them on this idea?

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, the only person that I knew to call was Crocs.

• 27:45Guy Raz?

  Okay, you called Crocs.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  So I called Crocs and I would never, a lot of times wouldn't get through. I tried a customer service number, they said it wasn't the right number for it. I found the office number. I think the farthest I got was I got somebody on the phone and I said, listen, I have a really good idea. I kind of shortened up my pitch at this point. I have a good idea for you. I need like five minutes of somebody's time, like 10 minutes max. And I got this one girl on the phone one time and she's like, we have like 200 people in research and development that we, we pay people to come up with ideas. I'm like, okay, cool, pay me. And she's like, yeah, no. I'm like, so there's nobody I can speak with. I'm telling you, I have a really good idea.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  And she's like, yeah, no. And in that kind of like this whiny voice. And I said, all right, well, you know what? Maybe I'll make the bag myself. And she goes, all right, good luck with that. And she hung up the phone and I'm on the other lens and I'm going, bitch, I'm gonna make this bag, I'm gonna make this bag. And that was the start of it all.

• 28:51Guy Raz?

  Okay, I love that, that motivated you. That's really critical. But, and then what? I mean, how, where, with who? Like, there are so many questions you have at this point. How do I start?

• 29:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'm like, okay, well, I need to figure out how to manufacture this bag. So where do you manufacture? You manufacture in China, right?

• 29:13Guy Raz?

  And you knew that because of like some of these websites, like Alibaba and others? Or you just, because Alibaba...

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't even know if Alibaba existed at that time. But you just always heard that everything is made in China.

• 29:26Guy Raz?

  Made in China, yes.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Right, so my first thing was, okay, well, my neighbor's from China.

• 29:32Guy Raz?

  He was from China, like he actually moved to the US?

• 29:35Speaker 01

  From China and moved to the US.

• 29:36Guy Raz?

  And, and you were like, hey, you're from China. Do you know how I can make something in China? Is that literally what you asked him?

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was awkward. I'm like, hey, this is gonna sound really weird, but do you know a manufacturer in China? He was like, you would think I would, but I really don't. I'm like, damn, I wish he knew somebody in China. And I went home and later that night, he actually, I don't remember if he called or stopped by, but he was like, you know what? He's like, I was thinking about it and a friend that I went to university with, his parents have a factory. He's like, they make smaller scale stuff, but I can introduce you to him if you want. And maybe he knows somebody. So I said, I would love that. So he introduces me to this gentleman and he introduced me to another woman who was making flip flops. So that was more in the realm of what I was looking at.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  It would end up that shoes and bags, well, shoes and my bags, because we were the only EVA bag at the time, but they were being made in the same type of machinery.

• 30:39Guy Raz?

  Because I just to imagine this, the, that material, the EVA, it's, it's like a liquid that's poured into a mold and then it, it cools and it hardens into the shape.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it actually in the EVA in its raw form comes in pellets in balance. And then the color is mixed to them and then it's put into a job and then it's heated and cooled, just like you said.

• 31:01Guy Raz?

  Okay, so you're introduced to another manufacturer that does a flip flops. And, and you're doing this all on the phone or through email?

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Through email.

• 31:12Guy Raz?

  How much were they going to charge you to, you, you're asking if they could do this? And first of all, a lot of these places have huge minimum orders. And did you guys get to that point? Did they say, well, you gotta order 30,000 of these? Or they were just willing to give you, to make a prototype for you?

• 31:29Speaker 01

  They were willing to make a prototype for me and I, the greatest thing about not knowing what I was doing, and I, I say this to every entrepreneur I meet is I said no to everything. It didn't matter if it sounded reasonable to me, I said no to it.

• 31:46Guy Raz?

  No to what?

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Prices, minimums, anything that I possibly could, because I didn't know. So what was the worst that they could do was come back and say, well, you have to order 30,000. And then I would go and look for somebody else. But fortunately I ran into a situation where I was like, hey, this is going to be huge. This is going to be the next biggest thing that you are manufacturing. You need to be able to work with me here. I'm not paying $25,000 for a mold.

• 32:17Guy Raz?

  Well, but that's the thing, they have to make a mold in order to make your prototype. So how much was that going to cost you?

• 32:25Speaker 01

  The initial mold costed me $5,000.

• 32:29Guy Raz?

  Okay, so they were going to charge you five grand to make? And did you have, make a commitment to them that if you liked the prototype, once you got there, you would do a minimum order?

• 32:38Speaker 01

  No.

• 32:40Guy Raz?

  Nothing?

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Nothing.

• 32:41Guy Raz?

  When did you, when do you remember receiving the first prototype?

• 32:45Speaker 01

  In 2010, I believe.

• 32:49Guy Raz?

  So about a year and a half after you first had this spark of an idea?

• 32:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:54Guy Raz?

  Okay. What do you remember about seeing that when it arrived?

• 32:58Speaker 01

  So my husband was the first to see it. And because he worked nights, he was home during the day. I was at work and he called me up and he's like, you need to come home right now. So of course I'm thinking disaster, something happened to one of my kids. I was like, I can't leave work. I don't have that luxury to be able to leave. And he's like, you just, you gotta get home as soon as you can. So I'm like, well, I'll get home at the normal time that I normally get home every single day. So I get home and there are three bags sitting on my dining room table. And he's like, this is the coolest shit I've ever seen.

• 33:37Guy Raz?

  While we come back in just a moment, Kim takes her bags to a trade show for the first and almost the last time. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This.

• 33:55Guy Raz?

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• 34:38Guy Raz?

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• 35:20Guy Raz?

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• 36:02Guy Raz?

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• 36:26Speaker 02

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• 36:48Speaker 03

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• 37:02Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2010 and Kim's just received the first prototypes of her sturdy, washable beach bags, three of them in three separate colors.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Olive, yellow, and pink. So I take the pink one. You know, I show it to a couple of people, family members and whatever. And they're like, oh my God, that's amazing. And like, I'm like, are they just being nice?

• 37:29Guy Raz?

  Did anybody say eh?

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Um, at that time, no.

• 37:33Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  At that time, no. But I took it to a store that was called Pink Bungalow in Ridgewood.

• 37:39Guy Raz?

  Okay. Is it nice, like a boutique that you liked?

• 37:42Speaker 01

  It was a beautiful boutique and there was a girl in there, Mary Frances, and she was their buyer. And she always even merchandise so beautifully and everything looked so nice. And I walk in with this pink bag and I am scared to death. Cause I can talk to anybody, but like now I'm like trying to sell something and I wasn't a salesman.

• 38:04Guy Raz?

  It's crazy. You had this, you had the confidence to do a lot of difficult things. But when it came time to you face to face as a sales rep, you got nervous.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  I was, I was petrified.

• 38:15Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  So I walk in and I had met Mary Frances before. So I was like, hey, I was like, I have this new product. And she just like looks at it and she grabs it with her hands and she goes, I don't know what the hell this is or what it does, but I think I need it. And that was my first order.

• 38:37Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  I really didn't even know what a pitch was or how to present it, or I, I didn't even know the cost.

• 38:43Guy Raz?

  Yeah, she's like, oh, I, I love, I love this. I think this is great. I'll, or how much are you selling them for, Kim?

• 38:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I ended up, you know, I doubled the cost of the product.

• 38:55Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  And then I doubled it again. So you're going to sell it for $60 and I'm going to sell it to you for $30. Literally made that up while I was standing there.

• 39:05Guy Raz?

  It was not based on any calculations. It was just an instinctive number.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  It was, yeah, at that time, it was absolutely instinctive because I didn't know about wholesale and retail and, and, and margins and anything. I just made up the number.

• 39:21Guy Raz?

  And she said, great. I'd say that's, that's great. I'll take, how many did she say she'd take?

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Somewhere between six and 12. Let's, let's test them out and let's see how they do.

• 39:30Guy Raz?

  Okay. You gotta put an order in, in China, or maybe you had already put the order in.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was ordering 300.

• 39:36Guy Raz?

  300, okay. And, and by the way, how much was that gonna cost you to order 300?

• 39:41Speaker 01

  I'd have to remember. It was under $10,000. Yes.

• 39:45Guy Raz?

  So you got 300 bags being made. Did you have a name for these bags?

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, it was already in the mold. So it was bog.

• 39:53Guy Raz?

  Bog, okay. So bog was embedded or embossed in the bag. And tell me about that name bog, cause it's, you know, I'm, I'm sure that, that initially some people were like bog, like a, like a, a marsh? Like what is a bog?

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, which I didn't know at the time.

• 40:10Guy Raz?

  That's right. In the UK, they call the toilet the bog. In England, that's right. Okay, so bog. So how did you come up with that name?

• 40:17Speaker 01

  I was literally looking for a four-letter word to go with croc. So it was gonna be something by crocs or something by croc.

• 40:27Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  And I started thinking about the waterproof nature of the material, the washable nature of it. So I, for some reason, I had frogs in my head. And then I started rhyming and I went frog, pog, chog. And then in an English accent that I clearly don't have, I said bog, it's the new bag. And not even knowing that in the UK, it was a toilet. And I would be reminded of this at my first trade show by a 25-year-old master of marketing. And he's like, you know, you're never gonna sell a bag with that name. I said, well, I already bought the bags and the, it's in the mold. And he's like, I'm telling

• 41:08Speaker 01

  you, listen to me, I have experience. And he goes, do you know what that means? It means toilet. And I said, at least it's effing washable. And I walked away. I had no choice. I couldn't change the name at that point. So it was gonna stick and I was gonna make it work.

• 41:24Guy Raz?

  Okay, so you've got the name and you've got these bags coming and you get six to 12 of them in this boutique.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:33Guy Raz?

  Tell me about that first batch of 300 bags.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  So the 300 bags, so I have six to 12 in pink bungalow. And now the bags are selling, but I'm still not convinced because I don't know if it's family and friends going in there. I, I don't know who's buying the bags. Like I couldn't say, like, who bought them? You know, I just had to be happy that they were selling. They also sold at their other location, which I believe was in Montclair at the time. So they placed a reorder. I put more bags with them. And then the other ones, I didn't know what D to C was. I didn't know direct to consumer. I didn't know how to build a website. I didn't have the money to build a website. So I went with what I know. And I know how to talk to people and tell them about my product.

• 42:21Guy Raz?

  Yeah, right. Cause you had 12 of them in the stores, but then you're, you're still left with, you know.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  I still have all these other ones. Right. So I became friends with a group of women on Facebook. It was a mompreneurs group. And people started talking about trade shows and trade show season's coming up. And I'm doing this trade show. And I'm like, what the hell's a trade show? Like, and, and I think I need to be there. So I convinced myself I had to go to Orlando for the Surf Expo trade show. So I got the cheapest motel. It was like the Bates Motel. But that's what I did. And I went to this trade show and I'm next to all these brands that like.

• 42:59Guy Raz?

  This is like a gift, a big gift show or?

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's more surf, um, you know, and I figured surf fit us, right? Like your surf shops are gonna buy it or your beach shops are gonna buy it. So there's O'Neil and Hurley and Billabong and all these big brands and these massive booths. And here I am with like, you know, 12 bags. I have no idea what I'm doing. I had guests on my wholesale pricing. I put together a, an order form that I probably did on Excel or Microsoft. And, um, yeah, and I just started selling bags there.

• 43:31Guy Raz?

  How many orders did you, did you walk out of that trade show with?

• 43:34Speaker 01

  I have over 10, which according to the guy across from me, who created the slap watch, said, that's pretty good for your first trade show.

• 43:44Guy Raz?

  10 orders of like roughly?

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Well, I made them by a certain amount. So I made them by six bags.

• 43:49Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  And a lot of people were like, oh, six, nothing, no big deal, no big deal. So we had some early on people that were like, okay, I see, I see what you're doing here, but I'm making nothing, right?

• 44:02Guy Raz?

  Right, cause you're a cost, yeah.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  I have legal fees that I still haven't paid yet. And, you know, the manufacturer had to get paid and, you know, things needed to be replaced. So I'm, I'm making nothing, but I'm, I'm selling.

• 44:14Guy Raz?

  And you, and by the way, through all of this, you're, you're doing your job, your day job. You're doing your job as a controller at a commercial real estate agency.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Yes. And I'm using vacation days for trade shows or to go here or to go there. So it was, it was a lot. It was a lot. I was doing, you know, bog at night and work during the day and, you know, kids in between and, and, and all of the things.

• 44:38Guy Raz?

  Okay. So I wanna ask you about, so you're getting some traction, right? But still very, very small. And I know that, that around 2012, I mean, you must've been gaining confidence because you spent that year, I think you, you managed to sort of cobble together some money and you put in order for 1,200 bags from this factory. And I read it was gonna cost you about $30,000.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Yes. So I was anxiously waiting for this 1,200.

• 45:06Guy Raz?

  So, and this was gonna go again, you had orders for boutiques, small, mainly small boutiques and, and, but no direct, no website selling these at this point?

• 45:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 45:16Guy Raz?

  Okay. So you placed this order.

• 45:21Guy Raz?

  The container arrives, it's $30,000 order.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:26Guy Raz?

  There's a problem.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's midnight. It's pitch black. And at this point, I rented an extra space storage unit. The container shows up late. We have, you know, it's my husband there. He pulled a couple of guys from the police department to come over and help. We gave them food. We had one of my, one or both of my sons there. And I'm like, this is our first full container. Like this is full of cardboard boxes. But the excitement is palpable. Like, I'm like, this is amazing. Like my kids were excited, my friends were excited, like to see a full container roll up, right? And we start unloading them, putting them into the storage unit. And I just wanna dig in. I wanna open up a box. And I wait a little while.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  But when I open up the first box, I see black streaks. Now functionality, perfect. Color, beautiful. Everything was exactly as I wanted it, except it had these black streaks.

• 46:25Guy Raz?

  Like what color the bag was like pink or yellow and had black streaks on it?

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it could have been red. It could, I think at that point I had five colors. So it would just have these black like lines, almost like a pen line.

• 46:37Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  And it wouldn't wipe off because I tried, believe me, with everything, anything I could possibly find to, to, to wipe off this black mark.

• 46:44Guy Raz?

  That was only in one box?

• 46:46Speaker 01

  No, that was in every box. It was in every box. I will not say it was on every bag, but it was in every box. At this point, we went to three per box. So if I was getting one good bag out of 10 boxes, it was literally, I was so sick to my stomach. And I was like, I failed. I'm done.

• 47:10Guy Raz?

  Can I just pause for a sec? Can I ask you why, like, could, could you have not gotten away with selling those bags? I mean, maybe people wouldn't notice. Maybe they, they think it's part of the design.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  I could have. And I later realized that they would not have noticed. But it was not what I wanted for my first time out. This was my first large order. And I had always envisioned it as a Nordstrom's bag or something like that. And I said, I can't sell a product that I can't stand behind.

• 47:44Guy Raz?

  So what happened? Why were there black streaks in the bags?

• 47:47Speaker 01

  Well, basically what it was, was laziness. It was sheer laziness. Basically that barrel that they're mixing the color in, has to be cleaned thoroughly.

• 47:56Guy Raz?

  Has to be washed.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  Right. It has to be washed. So somebody was lazy in washing it. So there was some of the prior color left in there when they put the new color in there. So when it was getting in, there was burning. So it was causing this little like fleck. So this black fleck.

• 48:13Guy Raz?

  I'm assuming you contacted the manufacturer and you say, hey, guys, you screwed up. Uh, you've gotta send me a new batch. And?

• 48:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 48:23Guy Raz?

  No what?

• 48:24Speaker 01

  No, we're not sending you a new batch. As a matter of fact, we have more to send you. And.

• 48:28Guy Raz?

  But then send me a refund.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, good luck with that. I mean.

• 48:33Guy Raz?

  $30,000. They said, no, we're not gonna, and you said, but look at these bags. They're, they've got. But they're, they're damaged.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, what you're saying makes perfect sense, but that is not how it went.

• 48:47Guy Raz?

  They said, no, no, no, sorry. You, you, that's what you ordered.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  You know, they did, at, at one point, they did agree they would send me more bags. But my concern was you're just gonna send me the more bags that you already have manufactured there. And I'm gonna have the same problem. So basically what we did was at that time, is I did have orders to fill. So I had to literally pick through everything and see if I could piece or parse together an order, just at least to keep the customers that ordered them happy, until I could get some more product.

• 49:19Guy Raz?

  So you were able to fulfill the orders, but you probably were left with what? How many bags would you say were defective?

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Between 800 and 1,000.

• 49:28Guy Raz?

  Wow. Okay. And 30 grand is a lot of money. And you had not raised the money. This was not investors' money. This is your savings.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  This was my savings. Yeah. Well, my husband and mine savings. Yeah. And my kids' college fund and.

• 49:43Guy Raz?

  And your kids' college fund.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was heartbreaking. It was, you know, I was disgusted. I was, but all in the back of my mind, I was still like, I'll, I'm gonna figure this out. This can't be the end. Um, but then, at one point, I decided, because life was getting busier. You know, I had one son playing three sports and one son playing two. And just, just daily life. And I just, I literally shut down. And I think that was in this portion of my life, probably one of the first depressions of like, I have let my family down, where I was like, what did you do?

• 50:27Guy Raz?

  So this, this situation combined with, well, the defective bags and the money that you spent on it and just the frustration, you decided to just freeze the business? Stop, stop entirely?

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Well, the first thing was, now what am I going to do with these bags? Because I can't now pay for an extra space storage unit for bags I can't sell, that I can't use. What am I going to do?

• 50:56Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  With these bags? And it was around the time that Superstorm Sandy hit the Jersey Shore.

• 51:04Guy Raz?

  This is October of 2012.

• 51:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 51:06Guy Raz?

  Huge storm that, that could cause billions of dollars in New Jersey, New York and Connecticut.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 51:14Guy Raz?

  And other, yeah.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  It literally came through 30, 40 foot waves, came through the same beach that the idea for Bog Bag was born. Houses were literally wiped from their foundation.

• 51:27Guy Raz?

  Just a huge disaster.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  It was insane.

• 51:30Guy Raz?

  And this happens just at this, at the same time as you, as you're going through this disaster with, with this order that has just cost you all this money.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  I'm trying to figure out what to do with these bags.

• 51:41Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Because again, the functionality and the color were beautiful. And I was like, there's gotta be something to do. And then the idea clicked one day is like, hey, what about all the people that worked their entire lives in Bergen County, which is already way too expensive, all to just move to the Jersey Shore? And then now their houses are gone. So I was like, already in this funky state, and now I'm thinking about this. And I thought about, hey, why don't we see if we can go down there and we'll use these bags as the vehicle to hand out supplies to people? And we started collecting all of these things.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Clorox wipes and paper towels, water bottles, granola bars, flashlights, gloves, masks, anything that they could, you know, there was no electricity still. So they're going into these houses that are probably likely filled with molds. They're sopping wet. Everything is dirty. They needed, you know, large garbage bags to take all the debris out. And so I had this idea and we, we called the mayor of Toms River.

• 52:54Guy Raz?

  Right, on the Jersey Shore, that, that town was like totally devastated.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. So now I had to get a trailer to now bring these bags. Everybody coming over the bridge when they finally opened it, like just the looks on their faces, they're like, this is, this is catastrophic. It's terrible. And it looked like a third world country. I mean, there were burning barrels and, and army reservists and people just standing there like, it was freezing, freezing, freezing cold. And we got a, a personal escort in.

• 53:28Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  Because we, we said, we're coming with all of these supplies. And then we started working with the Army Corps of Engineers and we had this massive group of people here to help us distribute bog bags. And it was kind of like a, here we are with this big ass yellow bag. And we're like, here, but take these things to make your life a little bit easier. Like we're, we're trying to do whatever we can. And we handed out every single bag.

• 53:57Guy Raz?

  And that was it? That's essentially, you got rid of 800 bags as you just donated them?

• 54:02Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 54:04Guy Raz?

  I mean, I understa-, you, you, earlier you mentioned depression and I, I mean, it's, I understand, like you, you had put a lot on the line here and, and it was, it was rough, like you were struggling and, but it, but it sounds like you didn't necessarily, you weren't necessarily saying this is over. You were just putting it on pause.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  No, I was done.

• 54:29Guy Raz?

  You were done? This was over?

• 54:31Speaker 01

  I was done. I failed and it was what it was. And, and all my focus now was what do I need to do? And that could be wait tables again, to replace the money that I had lost.

• 54:44Guy Raz?

  Kim, you had sold bags, you'd ordered some trade shows, boutiques were selling them. I mean, weren't any of them like contacting you and saying, hey, we are ready to do a new order? I mean.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  They were, but I, I could not, you know, it, it was part of the depression. I couldn't get myself to get past that point to where I'm like, hey, you know, saddle up. We're going to get through this. And it took a little while. In my mind, I was done anyway. But what happened was I had a Facebook page for the people that were coming to get supplies from us called Bog Bag for the Beaches. And this was the charitable arm of what we were doing during Sandy. And on this Facebook page, you know, it was a lot of like, hey, like checking in on everybody,

• 55:40Speaker 01

  seeing how they're doing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And people would post things about Sandy on it. And then between nine months and a year after Sandy, now all these people have had their bog bags in the worst possible scenario.

• 55:56Guy Raz?

  All these people who got a donation?

• 55:57Speaker 01

  All the, yes. Everybody that received a donation had these bog bags in molds, dirt, sand, water, you know, in like the worst situation possible. So the recipients of the bog bags with all of the supplies started reaching out through Bog Bag for the Beaches. And they were like, wait, I need to buy like more of these bags. I need one for my family members. I want to buy them for gifts. I want them for Christmas. I want them for, they didn't notice the black marks. They didn't care.

• 56:27Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  They loved the idea of the bag.

• 56:30Guy Raz?

  I, this is not a religious show. I don't want to push anything on you, but I'm just like, sometimes you have to think that there's forces that are working that you just don't understand at that moment. Because you're giving these bags away, but then those people who received them, they're not coming and saying, oh, thank you for your charity and we want to show you a good faith. They're saying, we really love these bags. They're really great. We want to order more.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I, yeah, I can't explain it either, but it, it happened at that time and it was one of those moments where I, I sat and I said, shit, now I gotta make this damn bag.

• 57:08Guy Raz?

  Did, did, did that start to kick you out of your depression?

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. Because now I had that renewed energy again, right? Like I was like, oh my God, wait, these are people I don't know, that I don't have personal connection to, that are finding value in something that I built. And yes, that did absolutely re-energize me. And the first thing was, was to call up the factory and figure out how they were going to help me and what they were going to do for me.

• 57:38Guy Raz?

  But this time you were actually going to visit, you were going to fly to China for the first time?

• 57:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:42Guy Raz?

  Okay. So you go to China, to this factory to figure out what went wrong and how they could fix it?

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:48Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Figured out the issue is what I said, it was the fleck burning off, getting into the bags.

• 57:53Guy Raz?

  They weren't cleaning the, the.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  The barrel.

• 57:56Guy Raz?

  Yeah, barrel, huh?

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we go there, we meet, first of all, just going to China for the first time and being outside of the country and then going to China and just.

• 58:06Guy Raz?

  Was that your first time out of the US?

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Except for like the Caribbean, yes.

• 58:09Guy Raz?

  Wow, that was so, and you were at this point, I mean, in your 40s, right? Easily?

• 58:14Speaker 01

  I was in my 40s, yes. So we get to this factory, but I was not doing well. From the flight to the, the four hour car rides, like I was already on edge. We get to this factory and when we got there, it was nice. They offer me tea and we're sitting down and it's, you know, there's obviously a language barrier, but we go down and we look at the factory and I'm seeing all the bags there and I immediately just start picking through them. And I'm looking at them and I'm like, these all have black streaks. They, they, they need to be discarded, whatever. And I said, and you need to make me new bags. And once you make me those new bags, then there will be orders for more bags.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  But until we can figure out this situation, like we're not moving forward. So I don't know why I thought I was going to be able to get this done, but I went in there with like, this is what's going to happen. This is what you're going to do for me. And basically they were like, no, you need to take these bags first so that we have more room in the factory so that we can make you more bags. And I said, I'm not taking any of these bags. And the guy said, well, we'll just sell them then.

• 59:28Guy Raz?

  We'll just sell them on our own.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  We'll just sell them on our own. Doesn't matter that you own it, created it, whatever. We'll just sell them on our own. And I just turned to him and I said, I will burn this effing factory to the ground. And I could have been in jail in China for all I knew, but I was so furious. My husband's like, you need to calm down. I said, if you sell them, I will burn your factory to the ground. And I left and that was it. And I went back and I was like, okay, now what?

• 1:00:04Guy Raz?

  When we come back in just a moment, Kim does figure out how to make more bags. And when she can't afford her own booth at a trade show, she puts together a timeshare. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This.

• 1:00:34Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2013 and Kim has decided to make more bags, but she's also decided to fire the factory that originally made them. So with no factory and no good leads, she gets on social media.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  I go back to my mom entrepreneurs group.

• 1:00:55Guy Raz?

  The mompreneur Facebook group?

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:57Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  And after a little bit of posting, one woman replied and she was having a, she makes a breast pump bag and she was having her breast pump made at a factory in China and offered to make an introduction.

• 1:01:12Guy Raz?

  Did that factory work out? Was that the one that you decided to go with?

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  I still use them to this day.

• 1:01:17Guy Raz?

  That's wild. So they weren't making anything like this, but they had the ability to do this?

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:24Guy Raz?

  Okay, so you have a new factory.

• 1:01:28Guy Raz?

  But you have a problem, right? Because you still need the cash.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:34Guy Raz?

  To get these bags and you know, you're, I should just paint the picture. You're still doing your full day job and you decide to revive this business. And that means going back to trade shows and working nights and weekends and needing cash for an order. First of all, let's talk about the cash. How are you going to do that?

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  So I started putting together what I needed and I refused to use any more of my own money at that point. I didn't, there was nothing left. Like it was like take out another loan or whatever. In the meantime, the attorney in our office, who I had worked with at that point for years. He's like, you know, my wife has a little bit of money she was looking to invest. Maybe she'll want to do it. I said, Jordan, you know, I have no financials. I have no nothing. He goes, no, but I know you. And he used to call me kiddo all the time. He wasn't that much older than me, but he used to call me kiddo. And he's like kiddo, I know you. So I meet his wife for lunch and I run her through it. And she's like, okay, let's do this.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  And I get $120,000 for, which is exactly what I needed, to the penny, to get the first order, to pay the bill and to move on. None of this was to pay myself, do anything for me.

• 1:02:55Guy Raz?

  It was just to get out of the rut and then to get a new.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  It was to get back going. And we signed the paperwork and I gave them 25% of the business.

• 1:03:04Guy Raz?

  And that was, and it was just a, it was like a very straightforward trust deal. I mean, they, again, you didn't have a data room and all this stuff for them to go through. You didn't have it and you couldn't. So it was purely just trust.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Guy Raz?

  And instinct, like they knew your work ethic and they were like, okay, we'll give you 120 grand and we'll take 25% of the business.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  I don't even think they asked for 25%. I think I offered it. Yeah.

• 1:03:31Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  You know, at the time, it was like, if I'm going to make this and somebody's willing to invest in me without any financials.

• 1:03:38Guy Raz?

  Absolutely.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  And no proven track record at this point.

• 1:03:41Guy Raz?

  You gotta give them some skin.

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  Right. So I'm going to give them something.

• 1:03:45Guy Raz?

  And with this money, you were able to put in another order and then now go back into the trade show world.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  Correct. But what was something really, something really cool happened out of this mompreneurs group again, is that there were a lot of us that were struggling, that could not afford to go to these shows. I mean, these booths, they're used car salesmen at these shows.

• 1:04:05Guy Raz?

  Yeah. They're like 10 grand for a booth.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  Or more.

• 1:04:08Guy Raz?

  Or more.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  And they will tell you it's the last booth left. If you don't commit right now, you'll never get into another show. So you're in a full on panic. So it's clearly frowned upon to share a booth. But I said, screw it. Like, let's just try. So I gathered this bunch of women who all wanted to try trade shows. And we would put five women in a 10 by 10 booth.

• 1:04:34Guy Raz?

  Selling different things.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Completely different things, from a sarong to a wine glass, to a bog bag, to whatever it was. But we would make it look as cohesive as possible. And, you know, all five of us couldn't stand there at one time. So we would have to kind of stand off to the side.

• 1:04:53Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  And we would share hotel rooms. These were women I didn't know, but I didn't care. And it worked. I mean, there was probably at least seven and maybe up to 10 trade shows where I did this, until I actually broke out on my own several years later.

• 1:05:08Guy Raz?

  Wow. Okay. So, and this is all on your vacation time and weekends and, right? Like, okay, how are you just personally managing? I mean, you got growing kids, teenagers and you need to be driven around. And your husband's got a busy job and you've got a busy job. And I'm assuming you did not have enough money to have a nanny or help. Am I right?

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  No. We were able to make it work as much as we can make it work. And I remember being at my youngest son's junior high school. And Anthony, he's such a smart kid and he's a great kid, but he would always find himself getting, very much like his mother. We're sitting down, talking to the therapist in the school. And she's like, so what's been going on, you know? And once you start saying it out loud, and I'm like, um, well, I work 40 to 60 hours a week and then I'm going to the warehouse at night. And then I'm picking up Anthony or dropping off Vincenzo or Rosario is doing this.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  And we had figured out that we were doing this for nine years.

• 1:06:19Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  It's probably one of my greatest regrets is just not realizing that time, that it was moving so fast. It was just, it was working and it was getting done. So it didn't cause me pause to have to like really think about it until she put it into perspective and said, guys, you've really been going for the last nine years.

• 1:06:43Guy Raz?

  It takes a toll.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  It did. It did. I mean, it could, you know, it.

• 1:06:51Guy Raz?

  I mean, this is the thing that I think a lot of, a lot of people interested in starting a business don't fully appreciate until they do it, which is a lot of things are happening in the background that require huge personal sacrifice on families, on marriages, on relationships, kids.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  Sorry. It does.

• 1:07:14Guy Raz?

  It's hard.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  It does. And when you, when you, you know, it just reminded me again.

• 1:07:19Guy Raz?

  Cause you're still, you have a steady paycheck that you need. You can't just jump ship. You still need that paycheck from the real estate company.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, we need, I needed every bit of it.

• 1:07:32Guy Raz?

  And it was just you, right?

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was just me until we got the product again. So, once the product came in again, I have to hit it heavy with the trade shows. Have to get a D2C side up. Everything was literally left up to me and my husband when he could and my older son when he was available. But I asked my son, I said.

• 1:07:58Guy Raz?

  Your older son?

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  My older son. I said, do you have any friends that want to work? And the only person that responded was a girl. And it was Julie. And Julie is still here to this day. She was my first employee and she would go to school and I would go to work and we would meet at the warehouse at night. And we would kick ass. We would pack boxes, label them up, get them on the truck, get them off the truck, do whatever we needed to do. We would be sweating and dying in there. And then we would go home and we would come back and do it all again the next day.

• 1:08:35Guy Raz?

  How long before you were able to pay back that $120,000 loan?

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  I believe somewhere in 15 or 16.

• 1:08:44Guy Raz?

  That's fast.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was fast.

• 1:08:46Guy Raz?

  So you paid that back and I think by 2017, you're in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? You're doing a few hundred thousand dollars in sales.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, we did a few hundred thousand dollars in sales. You know, the team grew from two to like three in a warehouse worker. So, you know, now I had payroll and I had taxes that had to be paid and all of these other things. I mean, there's just so much more than selling the product. It's crazy.

• 1:09:14Guy Raz?

  Okay. So what gave you the confidence to leave your job after 26 years and give up a paycheck, a steady paycheck and go all in? Cause you'd made this decision in 2018. What was, what gave you the courage to do that?

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  I.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Was tired, you know, now I'm in my, at that point, what, however old I was in my 40s, 48, and I had worked a lo- long, long time and a lot of hours. And this wasn't so that I could get a break. It was just, I could not do both anymore. I decided in July, I think it was coming back, we took a vacation. And coming back from that, the pile of work left for me at work and just all of it. And I just, I said, I have to leave. I told my husband and he's like, I'll support you, whatever you want to do. And I wasn't taking a paycheck from the business at all. So I made up a number in my head and I said, I need to sell a million dollars this

• 1:10:15Speaker 01

  year. If I'm going to leave my job.

• 1:10:18Guy Raz?

  And that would be enough to pay yourself?

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  I, I don't even know. I just made up that number. I didn't know if, how I was going to pay myself, if I was going to pay myself. I just knew I needed to sell a million dollars.

• 1:10:31Guy Raz?

  So this wasn't, I, I said, the courage to leave. And, and it sounds like you would argue that it wasn't really courage. It was just exhaustion. And you were just, you couldn't do both of these jobs.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  I couldn't do both anymore.

• 1:10:43Guy Raz?

  But you had enough conviction in this other thing that was growing, that it was worth taking the risk.

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  I did. I said, you know what, it's been, you know, at that point, it's 10 years now. 2008 to 2018, like shit or get off the pot. I'm either going to go full into this, or

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  what am I doing?

• 1:11:03Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  So I give them notice in July that I'm going to leave the end of July. And I didn't end up leaving until October. And at that point, I'm like, now I only have three months to get to this million dollars and, and to make this work.

• 1:11:22Guy Raz?

  How were you going to do that?

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  Just pounding phones, just checking in with customers, reorders.

• 1:11:29Guy Raz?

  Calling everybody who'd done orders, just calling them back and saying, do you need more bags?

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, posting on social and building an organic following and talking about the stores. That was one of the most, I think, one of the most beneficial things that I did early on, was I would talk about whoever was carrying me.

• 1:11:47Guy Raz?

  You would talk about it to who?

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  To social media. We didn't have a bazillion followers. We didn't even probably have 10,000 followers at the time. But there was engagement on it. So I was like, if you're looking for a bog bag in easily South Carolina, go see so and so. It was the personal connection that I had created with these stores, that I wanted to see them succeed.

• 1:12:10Guy Raz?

  So you had three months to hit a million dollars. That's a lot of pressure.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was. But we did it. We squeaked it by. And, you know, we're flying high going into 2019 and then COVID hits.

• 1:12:29Guy Raz?

  So, so 2019, well, you got 2019. And, and how did you do in 2019? Do you remember what you did in sales?

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:12:38Guy Raz?

  Like probably double one million, probably two, at least two.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  Two or three. Yeah.

• 1:12:44Guy Raz?

  And then COVID hits. And I imagine that's going to be a huge problem for you because you're in small boutiques that are, you know, probably in many states, they had to shut down.

• 1:12:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, it, thankfully, we kept everybody employed. And in the state of New Jersey, we fell under manufacturing. So we were able to stay open. But how are we going to sell bags? And who, who's closed, who's not closed?

• 1:13:09Guy Raz?

  Trade shows.

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  Right. Trade shows are canceled. But we had our group of customers and we had social media to talk to them. And we started seeing creativity come out of the stores because they needed to keep their lights on and their employees paid. And we started seeing them using bog bag as the vehicle for Easter, because Easter was coming up. And you couldn't go to the store and buy Easter baskets. So they would use bog bag and they would use something that could be just sitting on their shelves or sitting in the back store room for the past six months. And they would package it up as one kit and caboodle and they would sell it. And it would be curbside delivery. And where every other brand that I knew went D to C only during COVID.

• 1:13:53Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:54Speaker 01

  We kind of took the opposite. And we went wholesale heavy. So I was about 90% wholesale over COVID.

• 1:14:01Guy Raz?

  And basically, you're, the, the shops where you were selling it, they were promoting you. They were promoting your, your product.

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  They were promoting because they were showing pictures of the product. So then it was giving more people the idea. And then we went viral during COVID and not by my doing or anybody else is doing, but by Peloton Moms Group. Because Peloton Moms had bog bags that they would keep their sneakers in and they're all on the screen together cycling. And they all started talking about bog bag. So now our D to C starts kicking up. Our stores are looking for more product. And we end up COVID in a two year backlog of products.

• 1:14:43Guy Raz?

  Wow. But I, I saw something that, that one of the things that, or maybe one of the reasons why they took off is because people were so freaked out about germs and bog bags are washable.

• 1:14:55Speaker 01

  Well, that's what it was too. We had a lot of, we had a lot of teachers. We had hospitals buying our bags because they weren't allowing.

• 1:15:03Guy Raz?

  Spray it with Lysol.

• 1:15:04Speaker 01

  Right. You could just wipe it down. They weren't using, it's a non-porous material. So they weren't allowing leather and canvas.

• 1:15:11Guy Raz?

  Do you have an estimate of when you hit $10 million in sales, in annual sales?

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  Somewhere around 20?

• 1:15:18Guy Raz?

  2020. So that was, okay. So end of COVID. So wow. So you're coming out of COVID, all engines blazing. And people are discovering this bag. And you are eventually approached by a potential acquirer, which we don't know the name because there's been a bunch of NDA signs. So we don't, you know, I believe me, I looked. And it's a good, well kept secret. But a publicly traded company approached you for a majority stake. And they would have given you a lot of money, like more than life changing money, like money that will change a grand and great grandchildren's lives.

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%.

• 1:16:03Guy Raz?

  Tell me what, what happened? You get a call out of the blue?

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  I had a retailer and the owner of this group of stores happened to be friends with the CEO at this company at the time. And, you know, everything's such a weird, you know, set of coincidences, right? I didn't need the money. We were profitable. So there was no real need. The only need was, I was probably in the, you know, $20 million range at that point. And we had no systems. I was taking orders on pen and paper. Everything was done like manually. And I was like, as we continue to grow, you know, things were going to get

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  more difficult. So I really needed infrastructure. So we, we had great conversations, met several times, and they were great. And I just, you know, we, we instantly jived and everything was going really well. And then I started looking into them a little bit more. And I'm like, okay, well, they're on a little bit of a downswing. And I had known them, I grew up with these brands. So I, I was very familiar, but I was seeing that they were kind of on a downswing. And then I'm looking at their expenses. I mean, they're not showing me any financials or anything like that. But they're a publicly traded company. So there were things that I was able to look up. And I'm looking what the CEO is making. And I'm like, oh, I'm

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  never going to have a CEO that makes that much money. I was like, that's insane. I was like, for a company that's not doing that great? I was like, the numbers weren't making sense to me. And I will never claim to know that at that time, I knew what the numbers were. I still struggle. But I'm like, okay, I don't know if this is making sense to me anymore. So at the end of the day, the number would have been huge. I get the offer. I was like, I can do this. I can push through. But they wanted the majority share. And so I struggled. But I said, this is stupid. How could I possibly turn this down?

• 1:18:10Guy Raz?

  How, how much would, would you make?

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  Over 100 million.

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:17Guy Raz?

  That's a pretty hard offer to say no to.

• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  Oh, it was, it was, yeah.

• 1:18:25Guy Raz?

  Why did you say no?

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  Because of all of those things, all those factors. Um, you know, I go a lot on gut and I just, there were two major things. I wasn't ready to give up my baby yet. I wasn't ready to give up control and I had read horror stories about people giving up control and I still felt like I had more time to give to this and to give it the old try. The worst thing, which is the craziest thing that I was upset about is I'm very close with my sister and brother. I now have young nieces and nephew as, um, and, but we don't talk finances. But what I had talked to my husband about is I said, I want to take everybody to Disney World when I close this deal. And this is when I still

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  thought I was closing the deal. So for Christmas, I got my nieces luggage with Disney and I was so excited to take 15 people to Disney World and I was going to pay for it all because I was going to have a boatload of cash, right? So I'm like, this is awesome. And, um, I decided after Christmas and in the early part of the, the new year to not do the deal. And that sent me into a spiral. And I'm like, I can't afford to take them to Disney now. That was probably the second largest

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  depression. Um, and that one hit hard. That was, I was going to work every day. I was functioning. I was doing my work. I would go home. I don't think I showered in five days. I would literally just sit there and just say, what, what did I do? What did I do? And I couldn't get myself out of it. And probably about day three of that, you know, like week stretch, I just said, well, maybe if I write down how I'm feeling, like what, what's upsetting me the most? I just started

• 1:20:32Speaker 01

  writing and I wrote 35,000 words in three or four days. And it started at like early days and then it kind of came up to present day.

• 1:20:48Guy Raz?

  Imagine writing that down helped a lot.

• 1:20:51Speaker 01

  It did because it helped me see how far I had come.

• 1:20:56Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Did that help you get out of the funk quickly?

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it definitely sped the process along.

• 1:21:05Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:06Speaker 01

  You know, a couple of the good things that came out of the whole experience was there is value to what I'm doing. And that was a very difficult thing for me to really accept and take in and believe in that I was doing something valuable and somebody else was noticing it. But it, it, it's just, like I said, my mind never allowed me to go there. You know, the goal always in the beginning was to, you know, I wanted to be a millionaire and then that kind of came and went also. And then you're like, then it becomes so much more than that, right? It's, if it was about the money only, I would have sold it and I'd be sitting on a beach somewhere.

• 1:21:49Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  Like, you know, now I'm 50, I'll be 57 years old. Like, what the hell am I doing? Like, I'm still in work every damn day doing all this stuff. So it becomes more about

• 1:22:01Guy Raz?

  Your identity and, and your life.

• 1:22:02Speaker 01

  Your identity, the people you work with, the story that you can tell. So, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting.

• 1:22:11Guy Raz?

  I, I really appreciate that insight because I think that's right. You know, I know that there are forces, things that happen and, and they're not explicable, right? Because not that long after this whole deal fell apart, I guess you get another call from somebody else interested in also doing some kind of deal. And, and I guess through a series of calls and, and connections, someone eventually puts you in touch with an investor, Andrew Rosen, who I guess is a pretty big deal, right? Uh, but when you hear about him, you don't even know who he is.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I look him up and it's, you know, I see quotes like Godfather of Fashion, New York City. And I'm like, oh, I'm like, that's Andrew Rosen. Okay.

• 1:22:58Guy Raz?

  He was involved in Rag and Bone and Calvin Klein.

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  Theory. Um, and so anyway, we set up a call and we have a great conversation and Andrew's like, get her in touch with Hussein right away.

• 1:23:13Guy Raz?

  Hussein is another partner of theirs?

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  He's involved in everything, kind of like Andrew's, um,

• 1:23:20Guy Raz?

  Consigliere maybe.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, he, he just, he knows about all the brands, knows all the players.

• 1:23:26Guy Raz?

  All right. So he calls and he started, okay.

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  He calls and Hussein and I hit it off immediately. You know, I consider him family now and, and, you know, it was, we had a follow-up meeting and, and that was with Andrew and Lou Frankfurt. I had to look up Lou Frankfurt too, because I didn't know where he hailed from, but you know, he's the, basically the godfather of Coach, you know? I mean, he didn't

• 1:23:51Guy Raz?

  He turned Coach, I think, from a $5 million company to a multi-billion dollar brand.

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:23:56Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  So we started the process and we did due diligence for probably the greater part of 23. And at the end of 2023, we had five people and some warehouse workers. None of us had any experience in what we were doing and we closed 2023 at $50 million.

• 1:24:18Guy Raz?

  Wow. Unbelievable.

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  It was, it was insane. Uh, we ended up closing the deal with the group.

• 1:24:27Guy Raz?

  They bought a 40% stake.

• 1:24:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, 40% stake. So I maintained control, which was, you know, the issue with the other deal. And, you know, we started the ball rolling and, uh, you know, I moved six times in five years warehouses because each warehouse needed to be bigger.

• 1:24:45Guy Raz?

  More and more, yeah.

• 1:24:46Speaker 01

  More and more space. And yeah.

• 1:24:49Guy Raz?

  It's, it's amazing. And so when they, when they bought a 40% stake, um, I imagine that was really the first time at that point, you're, you know, when you're 50s, right? You're in 52, 53. I imagine you were able to take some money off the table and at that point, you, for the first time in your life, were truly financially secure.

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is the first time that I was truly financially secure.

• 1:25:15Guy Raz?

  But more importantly, you, you own 60% of a company that's worth a lot more money than it was before 2023, for sure.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:25:24Guy Raz?

  And that is a different place to be in life, for sure, from where you started.

• 1:25:29Speaker 01

  From where I started, yeah, 100%. No, I have, I have zero regrets on, on anything.

• 1:25:34Guy Raz?

  Better than waiting tables.

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  For sure. But if, if all else fails, I can always go back.

• 1:25:40Guy Raz?

  Yeah. So with this new partner, um, when you did the deal with them, I think you had like five or six employees, right? This is 2023. So this is not that long ago. And I've read that you now have close to 100 employees. Is that right?

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:25:58Guy Raz?

  So that's a huge shift in, in, you know, and obviously your, you know, your sales are much higher. You're now over, well over $100 million in sales. Um, what is it like to go from managing four people, you and four people, to you and 99 people within two years?

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  It's a lot. It was probably, so how many, how many depressions did I give you? Two? So let's, let's say the third was, you know, now you're hiring people with titles that you've never heard of before. Um, and they're coming from brands that are way bigger than your brands. And you're trying to fill all these roles and there's different personalities and different types of working. So it's, it's a very difficult thing. It, it, it actually caused me to shut down a little bit in, probably in the first year because

• 1:26:55Guy Raz?

  Because you're getting people with deep experience in the industry who may have worked in some of the, right, the biggest names and

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  Biggest names.

• 1:27:03Guy Raz?

  Corporate offices and they have a playbook and they've been successful. And you did not come from that world.

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  No, I didn't come from that world at all. So it was very, you know, I, I, I don't know if intimidating is the right word. Um, it definitely played a role, but it was more like, hey, I, I guess I just have to let people do what they do because who am I to correct them when they're already successful in this area? Right?

• 1:27:33Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:34Speaker 01

  You know, who am I to tell you how to do it when you've been doing it all of this time? And I had to gain that confidence back and said, no, you, you've been doing it too. You just may be doing it in a different way. And then there's gaining even more confidence and saying, no, no, no, no, no. This is the way this needs to be done. I don't care how it worked at X, Y, and Z. This is the way we need to do it for Bog Bag.

• 1:28:06Guy Raz?

  So tell me what you want this to be. I mean, I mean, it's a, a much bigger brand than it ever has been. Um, do you imagine it being a billion dollar a year brand or more? I mean, what are you, what are, what are the ambitions?

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  I believe it'll be a billion dollar brands. That is the goal. Um, you know, I'll continue to work until that's done. And, and just, you know, personally, what I want for Bog Bag is I want it to be a legacy. I want it to be something that, you know, my kids and their kids and their kids talk about and say that, you know, this was part of our family.

• 1:28:48Guy Raz?

  Kim, when you think about the journey you took, you know, it's what I really love about this story is it's not an overnight success story. This is a long, step by step, methodical, up and down, and at one point you abandoned it, story. It's a get rich slow story, which I think are the best stories. But when you think about where you started, you know, you dropped out of high school, right? You know, a lot of people would have written you off. And look how far and what you built, right? And when you think about that, how much of it do you think happened because

• 1:29:30Guy Raz?

  of all the work that you put in? And how much do you think had to do with moments of serendipity and luck?

• 1:29:37Speaker 01

  Serendipity, yes. Luck, I don't, it's hard to say. I don't like to lose. I don't like to fail. And I wanted to be able to, since an early age, you know, call the shots. And I was, I mean, I've gotten so much better. I was a massive control freak. Like, everything had to be done a certain way, and it had to be done fast. And maybe it was the environments that I worked in that made me that way. I don't know. But it's, there's a lot of intervention, luck, love. I don't know what to attribute it all to. It can't just be, you know, one thing.

• 1:30:23Guy Raz?

  That's Kim Vaccarella, founder and CEO of Bog Bag. By the way, Kim may seem like the kind of founder who would have been perfect for Shark Tank, but she never made it on the show, even though she applied, like, four times. And if you want to see what her audition looked like, you can still find part of it on YouTube.

• 1:30:45Guy Raz?

  Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode. And as always, it's free. And if you're interested in insights, ideas, and lessons from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs, please do sign up for my newsletter at guyraz.com or on Substack. This episode was produced by J.C. Howard with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Neva Grant with research help from Sam Paulson. Our audio engineer was Jimmy Keely. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Chris Messini, Alex Chung, Kerry Thompson, Carla Estevez, Catherine Seifer, John Isabella, and Elaine Coats. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.