Behind the Scenes Minis: Accidental Mary Week

Holly talks about Mary Lease's racism, and the barriers to accessing the one biography that really examines it. Tracy traces the steps she took into the rabbit hole of Mary McLeod Bethune's birth and family story. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 0:04Speaker 01

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• 1:14Speaker 03

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:47Holly Frey?

  Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:58Holly Frey?

  Hello and happy Friday. I'm Holly Frey. And I'm Tracy V. Wilson. We talked about Mary Elizabeth Lees this week. Uh huh. The mixed bag that is Mary Elizabeth Lees. Yeah. Which makes me want to talk about a subject, I don't want to say it's near and dear to my heart, because I don't like it, but a thing that grinds my gears. Mm hmm. And is a soapbox, and that is charity racism. Okay. Because there are definitely people who are willing to ignore when someone does really racist stuff. If they're like, but they do so much good charity work. Mmm. I kind of feel like that's happening here. Mm hmm.

• 2:43Holly Frey?

  Um, listen, have I gotten in a fight on the socials with a friend of one of my relatives? And when I talked to that relative and said, what the hell, dude? That person's super racist. And they're like, but they raise money for charities that help people who are, and I'm like, no, that they're still racist. That doesn't. Right. exclude them from it. Um, and it makes me furious. So. Yeah. But what's really weird here, and we didn't get into it in the show, because we didn't talk a lot about, uh, Mary's law practice, is that she did, uh, like, her first case was a very prominent case where she represented a black man and argued in ways that you would

• 3:27Holly Frey?

  think would not be the same person that also said, you know, people of color, black people and, and Asian people are inferior to us. So we gotta, we gotta be the boss of them. Right. I'm like, how do these two people inhabit the same body? It's so weird to me, but also so common that I know it happens all the time. Right. She's such a pill in some ways, and I want her to be great. And I want to like, be like, yes, Mary Elizabeth, but I'm constantly like, oh, Mary Elizabeth, shush. Um, it's kind of like, if you've ever had a politician where you're like, I really like what you're saying. Oh, you kept talking. Like, those have happened to me a few times.

• 4:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Um, this is our, our last episode recording session of the year 2024. And so this morning, when I was looking over the outline, I was also like distracted, kind of pulled in a bunch of directions, getting everything ready to, you know, have the year end. Um, and so my initial read through had been sort of cursory. And when I got to the long quoted passages from the book, I just sort of was like, okay, that's a book quote and didn't really thoroughly read it. And so then I got to the end of the episode, the first time around, it was like, huh. I like, I feel like there was some problematic

• 4:53Tracy V. Wilson?

  stuff in there, but not, not enough that like, not the amount that would have warranted the kind of, uh, discussion at the very beginning of the episode.

• 5:01Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 5:01Tracy V. Wilson?

  And then on read through number two, when I actually read those quotes, I was like, oh my goodness.

• 5:08Holly Frey?

  I literally, so the place that I read that book is an online source that's in the, the source list. And the way that it displays it, when you're actually in the text of the book, it doesn't have like a header that says, you know, Mary Lee's and the book title. It's just kind of all the text.

• 5:31Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 5:32Holly Frey?

  And I literally kept going back and forth and being like, is this someone else's book? Like, did this get, because this is messed up.

• 5:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  Misfiled?

• 5:41Holly Frey?

  This is messed up. But then, um, when I was reading the biography by Brooks Spear-Or, uh, which is really the one super comprehensive one there is, um, and I'll talk about that again in a minute. She was like, oh, this gets real weird and super colonizing. And I was like, okay, that is in fact, the actual text I was reading. Um, but it was very, it was so discordant. Yeah. Well, and in addition to that part, the idea of like, we'll just make everybody be farmers. And then there won't be any, you know, alcohol misuse or crime or whatever, like that also has problems. Oh, yeah.

• 6:21Holly Frey?

  And is like similar to prison reformers who were like, we will send people to these penitentiaries where they will be penitent and they will do hard work and like that, that will make it all better. Yeah, that also has problems. Yeah, there are so many presumptions of superiority, like you know, the correct way of life. You know what is correct. And it's like, even if that is coming from what somebody believes is an altruistic point of view, those are exactly the kinds of things that so really gross stuff down the road. Including thinking that we should colonize. Um, as I said at the top of the episode, most of the

• 7:06Holly Frey?

  quick biographies you read of her seem to completely ignore all of this. And I literally don't know if it is a case where they're like, I didn't read that book. It's so long and windy and meandering. And it is real meandering. It's like she invokes historical stories now and again to like, support her point of view. And, you know, likens, she was a very good orator, but I think in the long form of a book, she felt maybe a little whelmed. I could be wrong. That's just my supposition. But, uh, it is super weird. There's not a lot of, of close reading or acknowledgement of that outside of pretty heavy hitting biography study.

• 7:50Holly Frey?

  And that is a little bit of a problem in and of itself because as I mentioned, that Brookspere or biography is the most comprehensive. And prior to that, there had only been one that was written quite a bit earlier that did not seem to apply the same rigorous standards of like research and citing primary sources versus secondary, et cetera. And the problem is that that biography, which is the people's Joan of Arc, Mary Elizabeth Lee's gendered politics and populist party politics in Gilded Age America is as expensive as a textbook. It's a really expensive book. It didn't, um,

• 8:32Holly Frey?

  It was published by international academic publishers, so it is in that sort of text, textbook um, framework of cost.

• 8:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 8:44Holly Frey?

  Like, I got the Kindle edition of it, which are usually much less pricey. And it was more than eighty dollars. Like, it's a lot. So I think for a lot of people, especially people who are maybe even doing biographical research, that maybe can't get directly to a primary source or look at public records, something like that is often going to be out of reach.

• 9:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 9:11Holly Frey?

  Because that is a lot to spend on one source.

• 9:14Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. And even, even if you do something like interlibrary loan.

• 9:18Holly Frey?

  A lot of libraries are not gonna have it.

• 9:20Tracy V. Wilson?

  A lot of libraries are not gonna have it. And the ones that do, like, there could be costs involved with getting it. Definitely, there's gonna be time involved.

• 9:30Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 9:30Tracy V. Wilson?

  In getting it. Yeah.

• 9:32Holly Frey?

  Yeah. So, I mean, I think that has unfortunately been a barrier to people really

• 9:39Holly Frey?

  getting the full scope of the things that she advocated for. Also, I mean, let's face it, it's more of a feel-good story to be like, she fought the man. She was, she was, you know, trying to be a voice for impoverished farmers who had gotten completely screwed over by, you know, the industrialists and Wall Street, which she did, but like,

• 10:02Holly Frey?

  problems.

• 10:05Holly Frey?

  Yeah, the stuff that got said about her in the press, though, I don't know how she bore it in some cases. Like, a lot of it was just like the same kind of petty gross stuff that you would see about someone today if they were trying to lobby against very powerful, wealthy forces, right? There were a lot of some, um, kind of insinuations that she was the man in her relationship with Charles and that he must be very effeminate and like, just super heteronormative stupid and stuff. Uh, and also like, a lot of, a lot of kind of gendered attacks like that, that like, she couldn't possibly be a real woman and

• 10:50Holly Frey?

  just like stupid. Gross things that are easy to dismiss as, well, that's stupid. But like, she was getting it from all quarters, all the time. Like, even though she had a lot of supporters, she had just as many detractors who were just as happy to be loud about it. So it's a wild thing. But this is also one of those episodes that is both depressing and heartening for me.

• 11:14Tracy V. Wilson?

  Okay.

• 11:14Holly Frey?

  Because it's like, aside from the fact that, oof, I've really hung up about this let's go colonize thing she had going on. But aside from the fact that, from that, she was fighting for the same stuff that we are still trying to get sorted out today.

• 11:38Tracy V. Wilson?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:38Holly Frey?

  Which is awful and depressing. But also, there's part of me that's like, well, I guess everybody has always felt doomy. So we're not that unique, even though we

• 11:48Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 11:48Holly Frey?

  We always feel like we're in the doomiest doom zone.

• 11:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 11:52Holly Frey?

  I don't know if that helps anybody. It's kind of a really, a pessimist way to feel a little better about.

• 12:00Tracy V. Wilson?

  Mm hmm.

• 12:03Holly Frey?

  It's a little, it's a little, it's always sucked and it always will suck, but I, it's always sucked. There's always been terrible wealth inequality and people fighting to just get by and not, not having the means to recognize or get around the manipulative ways that big business can hurt little guys without even caring.

• 12:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 12:33Holly Frey?

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenx. Hosted by public health and policy expert Dr. Martine Hackett, Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis.

• 13:02Holly Frey?

  SMA and other rare autoimmune conditions. Each episode explores hope, progress and connection. How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each other? Tune in to find out. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 13:28Speaker 05

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• 14:43Tracy V. Wilson?

  One of our episodes this week in our Accidental Mary Week. Everyone this week is named Mary. Not on purpose. We talked about Mary McLeod-Bethune. Let's talk about

• 14:55Tracy V. Wilson?

  whether she was the first person in her family who was not enslaved from birth.

• 14:59Holly Frey?

  Yeah, you messaged me during your research and you were like, this is a mess.

• 15:06Tracy V. Wilson?

  So I started looking into this really early on initially, because I had at that point read like three or four really brief biographical sketches on places that should be pretty accurate, one would expect, like, I don't want to name names, actually. I just don't want to, I don't want to embarrass people or whatever. But like I had read, you know, some, some brief biographical sketches about her and they all said this. They all said that she was either the fifteenth of seventeen children or the last of seventeen children. I think fifteen of seventeen is right. I think the number seventeen is also right.

• 15:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  She gave an interview later on in her life in which she was asked to name off all of her siblings and she did only name fifteen, but I do think she had some siblings that died when they were babies.

• 16:03Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 16:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  Um, and, uh, you know, birth records not always,

• 16:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  kept very well for enslaved people. A lot of times there were references of like how many people there were, but not necessarily their names and stuff like that. So I, we're just gonna work off the assumption that, that she was the fifteenth of the seventeen children as correct. Now, immediately I was curious about this because seventeen is a lot of children.

• 16:37Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 16:38Tracy V. Wilson?

  It is a lot of children at the time. It's a, it's a lot of children for an enslaved mother who was enslaved for a chunk of that time. It's a lot of children. There is some physiology involved, involving how long it takes to carry a child.

• 16:57Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 16:58Tracy V. Wilson?

  And how long a person's fertility lasts.

• 17:03Holly Frey?

  Yes.

• 17:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  And so the idea of somebody, even if she started having babies at a pretty young age, and even if she was having them very close together, the idea of having fourteen children and then a decade-long gap.

• 17:20Tracy V. Wilson?

  Before having, I was like, it's not impossible, but it just seems not that likely.

• 17:28Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 17:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  So I was like, I should go check on this. And it was very easy to find quickly that there was this 1870 census that listed a child who was one and one who was three in 1870. And that would mean both of them were born after the abolition of slavery.

• 17:45Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 17:46Tracy V. Wilson?

  We're not even going to get into emancipation proclamation and anybody born between 1863 and 1865. There's a lot of just questions.

• 17:53Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 17:54Tracy V. Wilson?

  There. So I was like, wow, okay. This just seems to be a widely repeated bit of inaccuracy, which happens. It has happened on our show. I'm sure that we have, you know, repeated something that has been repeated so much.

• 18:10Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 18:10Tracy V. Wilson?

  It's just ubiquitously everywhere. Where I started to feel like I was losing it was a brand new academic work and brand new, as in within the last five years, biographies written by people with terminal degrees in their field. In at least one case, foreign academic press. Like, I would expect if you're writing a brief biographical sketch of somebody for a website, there's one level of research involved there. If you're writing a full on biography of somebody,

• 18:52Tracy V. Wilson?

  I would expect this pretty to me obvious gap to at least raise some questions.

• 18:59Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 19:00Tracy V. Wilson?

  And so when it apparently hadn't, I was like, am I missing something here?

• 19:05Holly Frey?

  Right. Did every copy editor not do a little math in their head?

• 19:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, I just.

• 19:12Holly Frey?

  There are a lot of eyeballs that are, have looked at some of those whose job it is to catch weirdness.

• 19:20Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 19:21Holly Frey?

  I could see where it would make you feel like you were losing your mind.

• 19:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  I really, yeah, I was questioning my own ability to read and do math. And I was like, am I confused about when the 13th amendment? It was ratified.

• 19:36Tracy V. Wilson?

  And I think part of the reason that I got so focused on it is that

• 19:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  there is a pattern that I have seen in working on this show for a really long time.

• 19:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  In adding elements to the stories of black people, especially black women, that make them seem almost romanticized or superhuman. And I can see aspects to this as positive, as like reclaiming a story and making it a story that is about inspiration and worth for black people who have not been covered that way in a lot of historical writing. But I also think it kind of adds into this idea

• 20:30Tracy V. Wilson?

  that the black people who throughout history have been the biggest activists and the most effective at what they were doing were somehow exceptional as people. It wasn't just that they have had access to education or that they had access to resources, but that they were somehow different from all of the other black people.

• 20:52Holly Frey?

  Yes.

• 20:54Tracy V. Wilson?

  And it carries through into things like, this is not the case with Mary McLeod Bethune. There is a ton of academic work about Mary McLeod Bethune, but there are a lot of figures in black history, especially black women, where I can find children's books about them, but no academic scholarship. And I feel like all of this stuff is tied together.

• 21:15Holly Frey?

  Yes.

• 21:16Tracy V. Wilson?

  Interconnected. So anyway, that was how I wound up spending an inordinate amount of time on this one question and also questioning my own, like, mental faculties.

• 21:33Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 21:38Holly Frey?

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenx. Hosted by public health and policy expert Dr. Martine Hackett, Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis, SMA, and other rare autoimmune conditions, each episode explores hope, progress, and connection. How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each other?

• 22:23Holly Frey?

  Tune in to find out. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 22:33Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 23:17Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 23:47Tracy V. Wilson?

  I love that she had faith in God and in Mary Bethune.

• 23:51Holly Frey?

  That's such a great quote.

• 23:52Tracy V. Wilson?

  It is a great quote. She definitely accomplished so much and so much of it traced back to being given the opportunity to go to school and being able to get scholarships for a more formal education. Sometimes she's described as the only, like, the first person in her family to go to school at all. And that does not seem 100% right to me. It does seem like some of her older siblings who were school age after the Civil War did have, like, they were able to go to a little bit of school.

• 24:29Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 24:31Tracy V. Wilson?

  But it did have to be, you know, very specific in the windows of time when that could happen.

• 24:36Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 24:37Tracy V. Wilson?

  She was, was the first person who, like, had higher educational opportunities. There were not that many opportunities for, for Black students to, even in a lot of cases, get beyond, like, elementary school. Like, a lot of the first schools that were established for Black students were more like elementary school level of education. So, like, getting to high school was a, you know, there were access issues there. And then, like, getting to college, a whole other thing. So, anyway.

• 25:12Holly Frey?

  Yeah. I mean, I, I, you know, she is one of those cases where she was clearly exceptional.

• 25:18Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 25:19Holly Frey?

  Because, which to me is evidenced by the fact that it took a lot of drive for her to continue to do all those levels of education.

• 25:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  Sure.

• 25:28Holly Frey?

  Obviously. Even if you have access, like, that's a lot of drive. But also, like, when her education was done, it was like she never slowed down. She just kept going, like, "More on the plate, please. More on the plate. I can do more than this. I, I still have a little bit of room. You could put one more responsibility. I could take one more thing on. It's no problem. Just one. Sure, that's not a problem." Like, throughout her life, I get exhausted just reading her life story. I'm like, "Did you, did you ever just sit down quietly with a cup of coffee for an hour and chill out? Like, what hap, what happened there?"

• 25:58Tracy V. Wilson?

  She also did all of that, well, a lot of it, while essentially being a, a single parent. Um, and like, I didn't find a lot written about her son, other than that he did feel like that he did not get a lot of attention because of his mother's work and her other, you know, everything that she had going on in her life. So like, I didn't find a ton about him either, but like, she still was, like, she was educating her son along with those, for those first students that she had, and she was raising him while also doing 9,000 things, like, let's start a school and a hospital and a mission for turpentine workers.

• 26:39Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 26:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  At the same time.

• 26:41Holly Frey?

  Yeah, exhausting.

• 26:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:45Holly Frey?

  Lie down, Mary.

• 26:49Holly Frey?

  Like, I just wonder, I also found myself thinking when you were talking about that period later in her life where she, like, retired, and I'm air quoting that because she unretired. Like, in those roles, what is the transition for her going back into them? Like,

• 27:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 27:09Holly Frey?

  Did someone do that job and then go, no, I can't really handle this the way you could anyway, so have at it? Or like, I mean, is it, I picture everything, all of the plates kind of spinning, and then maybe hitting the ground when she's like, oh, I'm, I'm unwell, I can't work for a little while.

• 27:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 27:29Holly Frey?

  More likely, I think she was so driven and organized that she probably had fail safes in place for times when she couldn't be there. But I just am like, I don't know how the world kept going when she was like, I need downtime.

• 27:42Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:44Holly Frey?

  Because that was a lot of stuff.

• 27:45Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 27:46Holly Frey?

  I mean, I get fussy when we have to, like, in cases like this, hurry up and get everything done before the holidays, so we can like,

• 27:52Tracy V. Wilson?

  Have a little break.

• 27:53Holly Frey?

  Sit on the couch with a cup of coffee and not do anything for a while. So I can't even imagine.

• 27:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, well, and there were definitely times where, uh, the, how much she was doing and how much effort she was putting in does seem to have led to some, like, maybe not led to. But at least contributed to some pretty serious illnesses.

• 28:10Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 28:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  Um, and, uh, so, yeah, yeah.

• 28:16Holly Frey?

  I mean, I see why she believed in Mary Mathieu.

• 28:19Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 28:20Holly Frey?

  Because I do.

• 28:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, she's a very incredible person. I, I've had her on my list for really so long, incredibly long time. And, uh, like, one of the reasons that, um, I have, I had not moved her up to the top of the list sooner is that there is just a ton out about her, uh, already. And so sometimes I have focused on people doing similar work that were maybe not as well known. Um, but, uh, still, she does not, I think that, that the men who were her contemporaries, who were also working toward a lot of the same issues specifically for, uh, for Black Americans,

• 29:06Tracy V. Wilson?

  for like the freed people after the end of civil war, have, I think, more name recognition than she does in a lot of areas today. Um, so, yeah, I'm glad we finally got to do this episode.

• 29:18Holly Frey?

  Me too. I have a question that you will be answering now because we're recording this before it comes out.

• 29:25Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, sure.

• 29:26Holly Frey?

  Did past you, or future you, time travel is hard, watch this the day it dropped on December 20th?

• 29:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  Um, probably not on December 20th because I am making a visit to see family. Um, and when I go to see my parents, I tend to spend all of my time with them doing stuff for them at their house, that kind of thing. Um, and I don't know if there will be like downtime on the 20th to watch a whole movie that is, um, I don't know, maybe, maybe my parents would like to watch it too, maybe not. Uh, I pretty much, my mom has control of the remote and is the decider in what we are gonna watch.

• 30:14Holly Frey?

  Fair.

• 30:14Tracy V. Wilson?

  Um, but, uh, I probably will watch it over the break after I am back home again. Uh, the break meaning, meaning this time where we recorded the episodes in advance so that I can take it off.

• 30:31Holly Frey?

  Yeah, I'm working that day, so maybe I'll watch it while I work.

• 30:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, that'd be cool.

• 30:36Holly Frey?

  Sit here and cry for a while.

• 30:38Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 30:38Holly Frey?

  Try to type about something else.

• 30:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, I don't, I have no idea how, how the, you know, what, what the, like, there are a lot of different ways you can focus a movie like this, since it is both about the Postal Directory Battalion and also about World War II.

• 31:00Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 31:01Tracy V. Wilson?

  So it's like, how much war movie is it? And how much is it about these women? Don't really know. Hasn't come out yet as of-

• 31:06Holly Frey?

  We'll find out.

• 31:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  Find out. I, as a person who has like, a lot of pacifist ideals, I yet still will find sometimes war movies incredibly moving.

• 31:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  So we'll see. We'll see. Maybe I will report back afterward, although at that point, it's going to be, you know, weeks after the movie comes out.

• 31:36Holly Frey?

  Right, right.

• 31:37Tracy V. Wilson?

  So yeah. Whatever's happening on your weekend, which is like, three full weeks after the day we're actually recording this episode, whatever's happening, I hope it's great. I hope you're able to, you know, if you are pushing really hard on something that is important to you, I hope you're able to take a minute to breathe, because that minute to breathe can really help you get through all the minutes after that.

• 32:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  We'll be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and something brand new on Monday.

• 32:15Tracy V. Wilson?

  Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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• 34:31Tracy V. Wilson?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.