Rock Bottom, Recovery, and Starting Over at 40 | Jon Gustin

Jon Gustin got sober at the beginning of 2023, but as he explains in today’s episode, getting sober was not the end of the struggle. It was the beginning of finally facing everything he had spent years avoiding. Jon talks with Ryan about his unhealthy relationship with substances, the emotional rock bottom that forced him to change, and the daily practices that helped him stay sober and focus on being a better husband and father. Jon Gustin is the founder of The Tired Dad LLC and the voice behind The Tired Dad, a movement built around showing up for what matters most. His book, The Tired Dad.: 100 Reflections on Showing Up for What Matters Most, is out now! Follow Jon Gustin on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. 👉 Check out Jon's NEW book: The Tired Dad.: 100 Reflections on Showing Up for What Matters Most📚 Books Jon Mentioned: Stillness Is The Key by Ryan HolidayThe Daily Dad by Ryan Holiday 🎟️ DAILY STOIC LIVE | Ryan Holiday is coming to a city near you! Grab tickets here | https://www.dailystoiclive.com/🎥 VIDEO EPISODES| Watch the video episodes on The Daily Stoic YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos✉️ FREE STOIC WISDOM | Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.

• 0:14Ryan Holiday?

  A lot of people think sobriety is about quitting something. I gotta quit smoking, I gotta quit drinking, I gotta quit doing this or that. But anyone that's kicked a serious habit knows it's not so much about quitting as it is confronting. Not just your relationship with that substance, but why you turn to it in the first place, what it's doing in your life, what hole it's filling, what problem it's helping you medicate or run away from. It's about facing your emotions instead of running from them, how to deal with chaos and dysregulation instead of just reaching for relief. And I think that's why Stoicism has become so popular in 12-step groups and recovery,

• 0:57Ryan Holiday?

  but also just anyone trying to get control of themselves, trying to deal with those things that Seneca says, "Make us a slave." And Seneca isn't even just talking about substances, right? Seneca's talking about ambition, talking about powers, talking about wanting to be liked, wanting to be famous, wanting to be rich. And for the Stoics, it wasn't about perfect abstinence necessarily, especially for some of these things that actually are a part of life, unlike cigarettes, which you don't need to smoke, or crack, which you don't need to do. Some of these other things are a more integral part of life, and therefore confronting them and our dependence on them

• 1:40Ryan Holiday?

  or our unhealthy relationship with them is even harder. I was talking about this a few years ago with Troy Baker. We did a great episode of the podcast. We're talking about Marcus Rilis, and the idea that Marcus Rilis is not the work of someone who has mastered himself once and for all, but someone who's still wrestling, still correcting, still trying, still confronting himself in the fight to be the person that philosophy wants him to be. This is what we said. It's important that we don't see the Stoics. He's not writing in meditations from this sort of sage-like Zen perspective of having triumphed over his emotions. It's the opposite. He's saying that because he got pissed at people today.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  I literally picture him, you know, from the river, you know, he's like sitting there going, you gotta get your shit together, man.

• 2:26Ryan Holiday?

  When there's a passage towards the end, he's like, you're an old fucking man and you're still doing this, you know, and you realize this is not, this is not teenage Marcus putting down rules for how he wants to be. This is 30, 40, 50 years of philosophy, Marcus, who's still having trouble with this shit.

• 2:47Speaker 01

  With great teachers along the way. It's not like he didn't have a model for it. Like, he had literally the best education and he's still struggling. So there, there is some times where I think that the employing of comparison can be helpful.

• 2:59Ryan Holiday?

  And that's what today's conversation with John Gustin is about. It was a lovely little conversation. John is the creator of The Tired Dad. If you've spent any time on TikTok or Instagram, you've got kids, probably the algorithm has surfaced you his stuff. A couple of years ago, his wife bought him Stillness is the Key, my book, and then Daily Dad, which he was saying were sort of a transitional point in his life when he was trying to get sober, trying to write more, trying to be a better father and husband. And in this episode today, I wanted to riff a little bit with him on his path to sobriety, what made him change, practices that are helping him stay sober, and how Stoicism became a part of that journey. You can check out John's new book, The Tired Dad, 100 Reflections on Showing Up for What Matters Most. And then, of course, you should follow him on

• 3:40Ryan Holiday?

  all the social platforms. Just search The Tired Dad. It's everywhere. It's a great follow. He's awesome. And I think you'll like this little episode.

• 3:58Ryan Holiday?

  So tell me about getting sober.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've never had a good relationship with any substances. It started when I was thirteen, uh, seventh grade. My friend gave me Adderall and it was, this is amazing. I want to feel like this forever. It's like, it's solving all my problems with like socialization and everything, so.

• 4:21Ryan Holiday?

  That's kind of the sign you're an addict, right? When it's like that magical experience the first time?

• 4:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, when you become an addict, the first time you do something.

• 4:28Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Which is how everything's been. First time I got drunk, I got alcohol poisoning at a school dance. And you would think that would be, okay, this isn't for me. No. So that's how I knew my relationship with substances just was not, was not healthy.

• 4:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 4:45Speaker 02

  And lied to myself for years, thinking, oh, I can control it. And you know, you get sober for like three months and you're like, great. But you make up for lost time.

• 4:55Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  Once you're back. But 2020 really was not good for it.

• 5:00Ryan Holiday?

  Cause suddenly you're trapped at home with yourself.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. And we had our second born, my son during that time, uh, late nineteen, we had him and.

• 5:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, we were in the same boat.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I always used it to just like hide my emotions, you know, not deal with stuff. I grew up with a very non-expressive family. My dad is, you know, military, my grandpa was military. It wasn't, I didn't feel like I could be expressive, you know? I was though, I'm a big feeler.

• 5:31Ryan Holiday?

  When you, when you, when you drank, they could come out? Or was that, it helped you keep them locked up?

• 5:36Speaker 02

  Both, you know? It just, you know, it solves the stuff that you should deal with.

• 5:42Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  And so flash forward to me getting sober in, uh, the beginning of twenty-three, the second day in the, uh, two thousand twenty-three. That first year was, it's not like it was, oh my gosh, I'm sober. This is so great. It was like, oh, the last twenty years, here they are.

• 5:58Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  This is all the stuff you're, you know, need to deal with and. You know.

• 6:03Ryan Holiday?

  Cause it, cause like, running away from your problems is like putting them on a credit card. Right? There's just the interest that is accruing. And then you look at the balance one day and you're like, oh shit, I have 20 years of deferred. Accumulated interests on all the shit that has been piling up since childhood.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:20Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Exactly. I knew I was being honest with myself that I, I knew it wasn't gonna get better. And my kids were young at the time, but I knew where it was going and I didn't want to have to get sober when they were, you know, when they knew what was going on.

• 6:38Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  You know, and I just didn't want to be that dad. And I just stopped lying to myself and I just dealt with it head on and.

• 6:48Ryan Holiday?

  What'd you do? Did you go to rehab? You go to meetings? How'd you do it?

• 6:51Speaker 02

  No, just, um, really just, I just stopped and like consumed a lot of material, you know? See full circle moment here. My wife got me Stillness is Key and it came out in 2019. I think it was before. And I shelved it.

• 7:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  I didn't know who you were at the time. I didn't know what Stoicism was. I always had this idea that Stoicism was just to hold everything in and kind of this like Sparta mentality, right?

• 7:19Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, sure.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  As time went on, I picked it up again during that time when it was like, all right, after 2020, I need to figure my life out. And I read it and I was like, oh, okay, this makes so much sense of inner peace and dealing with everything, killing the ego. All that. And then, um, the next book my wife got me was Daily Dad for Father's Day.

• 7:44Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, wow.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it was kind of like a big part of that journey in the, in the beginning, really 22, 2022 was like, everything came to a head internally. It was never, a lot of people, when I did get sober, they're like, I didn't know you had a problem.

• 8:00Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  My wife knew what was going on.

• 8:03Ryan Holiday?

  Was it a thing you guys would fight about? Like it was there or it was just kind of unsaid?

• 8:07Speaker 02

  We never fought about that. It didn't help things, you know? Just normal arguments were amplified.

• 8:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  Right? Because of it, but I was never an angry drunk or anything like that. But internally, I was really, really low. And I knew something had to change. And I mean, she, my wife has been, I think I would have had to have gone somewhere if I didn't have her.

• 8:32Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  She has been such a big support to me in everything. And she's helped me express myself more. She's very expressive and just like true teammates.

• 8:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  And been through some stuff and a lot of it just had to do with ego. You know, in marriage, like ego does not work.

• 8:53Ryan Holiday?

  Because there's another person.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:55Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  And once we figure that out, and also kids change your marriage completely.

• 9:00Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  And it's uncharted territory. No one was really guiding us. It was all on our own.

• 9:06Ryan Holiday?

  So was it, was it a clean break for you? Or was it a period of a couple of years where you're really getting serious about it?

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, it was probably 21 to 23. I was trying.

• 9:16Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  Really hard and would take breaks and everything, but then 23.

• 9:20Ryan Holiday?

  What made the difference in 23? Like what set you up to be successful in 23 that you, you didn't have in 22 and 21?

• 9:29Speaker 02

  I would just say it was just kind of that rock bottom moment.

• 9:32Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  Emotionally, internally, that I was like, done. I'm like, I'm done. I need to figure this out. I'll do whatever I need to do. But, you know, I did cold plunges every day. I don't even care the benefits of it. Like I did it because it calmed my mind down. It was something extreme.

• 9:52Ryan Holiday?

  For you, was it finding other ways?

• 9:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:55Ryan Holiday?

  Of sort of quieting whatever that?

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 9:57Ryan Holiday?

  Thing that you were using drugs and alcohol to address?

• 10:00Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 10:00Ryan Holiday?

  What are, what are some of those things?

• 10:01Speaker 02

  Breath work, cold plunging, reading, writing, journaling.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  Running, working out, just anything to get my mind off of it and to stay. And then I got really like focused on, you know, being a dad and the, and being a good husband and and just kind of focused all that because it's the extreme behavior of an addict. You have to switch to extreme behavior to something that's good for you.

• 10:29Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  Or bad for you, right? So.

• 10:31Ryan Holiday?

  The energy, it's like you have this energy or this sort of restlessness or dysfunction that doesn't just go away.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 10:40Ryan Holiday?

  It needs an outlet.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. Exactly. That's why you see like addicts become ultra marathon runners or something, you know, or.

• 10:48Ryan Holiday?

  But do you find social media can be a dysfunctional outlet for that energy too? There is that dopamine rush, the ego of it, you can stir shit up. There's an endless amount of energy like just on the other side of your phone too. Is that weird for you, given that it's also your job?

• 11:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, we know that if there's not a balance with it, it's can be toxic to you. Being an addictive personality.

• 11:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Obviously, but I try to use it to put out a positive message.

• 11:16Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  And to help people through it and, you know, that's easier said than done because social media is social media. And.

• 11:25Ryan Holiday?

  I just mean, I could, I could see an environment where like if I got sober, it's like, oh, no, no, this isn't a bad habit. This is my job.

• 11:32Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:33Ryan Holiday?

  Where it can go into, I can go into a work addiction, but then if your work is your phone and social media, I could see that as being a kind of a potent.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:43Ryan Holiday?

  Place.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  It can, but I'm, I'm super aware of that because that comes from that. Like you said, that the ego and, oh, it's my job. And there's been times, you know, you learn from your mistakes. There's been times, definitely seasons where it's like, no, I, this is my job. But, you know, you, it's endless.

• 12:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, there's endless amounts of attention.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:05Ryan Holiday?

  And.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  It never stops.

• 12:06Ryan Holiday?

  Conflict that you can just kind of get high off of.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, and there's so many platforms and the work never ends. And just being an entrepreneur or self-employed, the work never ends. You can work 24 hours a day, you know that, right?

• 12:20Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  You know, so yeah, you have to, you have to be mindful of that for sure.

• 12:26Ryan Holiday?

  So it's going well?

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:28Ryan Holiday?

  The sobriety thing?

• 12:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:29Ryan Holiday?

  You got like two years, three years?

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Three years, over three years.

• 12:32Ryan Holiday?

  How does it feel? Is it better?

• 12:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, a lot better and just going through that struggle and dealing with everything of the past 20 plus years that I hid.

• 12:42Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  And going through adolescence, like high, basically.

• 12:45Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Learned so much more about myself.

• 12:48Ryan Holiday?

  You kind of have to relearn how to be a person.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 12:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  And now I'm 40 years old. I truly feel, what's that quote about, uh, life begins at 40 and everything else is just practice?

• 12:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  That's my quote right there.

• 13:01Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  That is what I feel like. I feel like I'm literally starting a whole new life and that past life was just messing up a lot.

• 13:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, and I imagine, so going into your 40s sober, you're like, oh, this is how I have to deal with things that I've been not dealing with.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:19Ryan Holiday?

  Or this is, this is, I have to learn how to have the skills to deal with, whether it's a tantrum, or it's stress about money, you're having to learn how to manage that that you weren't managing before because you were just.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Put a band-aid on it.

• 13:32Ryan Holiday?

  Masking it, yeah, right. And you feel like Stoicism was a part of that journey for you?

• 13:35Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 13:36Ryan Holiday?

  What do you think you took from it?

• 13:38Speaker 02

  The ego, for sure. And that helped my marriage and then just helped everything.

• 13:42Ryan Holiday?

  You're not special, you're not exempt.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  I feel like ego is like the downfall of everything.

• 13:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  Like, it's, it's why people are workaholics, it's why people aren't present with their families, it's why marriages fail. Like, it's a big part of it because you're not paying attention to what matters. And it does you no, it does you no favors at all. So ego was huge and then just also that inner peace, like, and through the chaos. So that's the hardest part, right?

• 14:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  Stoicism is the hardest when your kids are both screaming, you're trying to cook dinner, you're burning dinner, and it's just absolute chaos and you're trying not to lose.

• 14:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's helpful to have something that can take the edge off.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:30Ryan Holiday?

  The problem is that that that cure is worse than the disease.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 14:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 14:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it will help during that time, but then what are the repercussions later?

• 14:39Ryan Holiday?

  Right. Yeah, the thing about ego and sort of addiction is it's like, it's this thing where you're like special, but then also you feel you feel bad about yourself at the same time. Like, isn't there like an Alcoholics Anonymous saying about like being the piece of shit at the center of the universe?

• 14:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:54Ryan Holiday?

  Like, like, it's this weird ego, but also profound sense of worthlessness and loneliness.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I think especially with non addicts that don't have addictive personalities, they look at other addicts like, wow, it's a discipline thing.

• 15:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  And it's not a discipline thing. And it's also, it is selfish, but at some point, it's like you don't, you're not necessarily a bad person or a selfish person. You might be, but you might not be too. And then getting sober, a lot of the times, people can carry that shame with them.

• 15:32Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 15:33Speaker 02

  And that that doesn't help their sobriety is to hold that regret and shame. And it's just kind of like, that wasn't you, move on and and deal with it.

• 15:43Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And I think obviously both parenting stoicism and sobriety, I think it's how little control you have over things and the ability to sort of let go and roll with the punches is like that really difficult, but essential lesson. But there's a difference between knowing and knowing it.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  For sure. And I mean, isn't that the the problem with like self help and everything? That you can read all the self help books, you can read all the stoicism books, but you still have to do it.

• 16:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  You can have all that knowledge, but what are you doing in your real life to to show that?

• 16:22Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I think specifically with like addiction, there's, there's a couple of layers here, which is like, one, you can know you have a problem, but not believe you really have a problem, right? So there's, there's like the knowing, hey, I know this isn't working for me. I know I gotta quit this, but then you can say like, later or down the road. Or it's not as bad as other people, or I've got it under my control. So you have that element of just like, you know it, but you don't really feel it, you know, where you feel it, but you don't know, or whatever it is. And then there's the part where it's like, then you know what you need to do. And then the actual doing of it day to day is the the next part of it. It's like, hey, I know these are the, these are the, the healthy habits.

• 17:04Ryan Holiday?

  These are the practices. These are the things that keep me sober, that keep me on the right path. And then are you doing it day to day? Or are you making excuses? Or are you making exceptions? And then that's when you get yourself into trouble. So there's the, there's the knowing and then really knowing and being ready. Like, as you said, you wanted to get sober for a while, but it's not until some magical point in 2023 where you're like, okay, now it's really, really, really the time. And then, uh, just because you know it's the time, that doesn't help you right now. Three years later, where you have to do it again today and tomorrow and the day after.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just one day at a time, really. And, and that's a mindset that I shifted was, don't just say, okay, it's gonna start today and last forever.

• 17:51Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  It's gonna start today and it's gonna just be today and then it's gonna be tomorrow.

• 17:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  And then, I mean, sometimes you go hour by hour in the beginning.

• 17:58Ryan Holiday?

  I'm just not gonna do it right now.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  Right now.

• 18:01Ryan Holiday?

  And as long as you stack enough of those on top of each other, you're there. Yes.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it comes down to really that self-reflection. So you have to be honest with yourself.

• 18:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  Like, am I an addict? Or maybe this just isn't serving me anymore and I wanna stop it.

• 18:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  You know, it, it doesn't have to be, I think addiction and everything is like, okay, you're homeless on the streets or you went to jail. Or you, you got your third DUI. Sometimes it's just a mental breakdown that gets you there.

• 18:30Ryan Holiday?

  Or just a sense of like, hey, I had enough, man.

• 18:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, or a sense of, I just don't wanna be dependent on something. Or I don't wanna have that glass of wine anymore.

• 18:38Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  I'm just gonna stop.

• 18:39Ryan Holiday?

  I don't wanna wake up feeling X, Y, or Z in the morning anymore. And I know this is why I wake up that way.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  And that is, was the biggest, if I got something back from it immediately, waking up with my kids early without a headache.

• 18:56Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  Or not being like, uh, brain fog in the morning and just having really good mornings every Single morning was was nice.

• 19:06Ryan Holiday?

  I heard this interview with Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers where he was talking about how he wasn't an addict the way that some of the other members of the band were, but he would only do drugs or drink when he was out of town. He was like, I don't, I never do it around my kids. And then he just had this epiphany or someone said to him once like, hey, but what if your kids need you? Like while you're gone, like they just want to talk on the phone and you can't because you're hot. Or, or he's like, what if they just like, just even from like an energy standpoint, your kids going through something? And you're over here in oblivion. Because you're saying out of sight, out of mind. And it's like that as a parent, you don't get to say out of sight, out of mind. You never are actually off the clock.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:45Ryan Holiday?

  And so that's when he decided to get totally sober. And I, I like that, like the idea that like your kids could need you wherever you are in the world, whatever's happening in their world or your world. You just don't, you just don't have the luxury of checking out. And doing something as selfish or as sort of, yeah, as selfish as going like, hey, I'm, I'm gonna not be me for a while.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And that's a perfect example. And even just being just present with them, like remembering things with them, like the bedtime routines. And my kids say, I don't know about your kids, but they say the craziest stuff right before bed.

• 20:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  And you're like, where the hell did that come? They, they could just be like kids the whole day and just, you know, they're just kids. And then all of a sudden.

• 20:33Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, they become a philosopher.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh. My daughter will be like this whole like reflection of life and who she is. And, and I'm like, what the heck?

• 20:43Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And if you had a bottle of wine at dinner, you're not going to be there for that.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. You're just like, all right, come on, come on, you know?

• 20:49Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  And to be like that fully present. And I know Marcus Aurelius, the extreme version is like. Act like they not even gonna wake up the next day.

• 20:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, totally.

• 21:00Speaker 02

  You know, and.

• 21:01Ryan Holiday?

  Well, and if they don't, how are you gonna feel?

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 21:04Ryan Holiday?

  If you passed out in the bed next to them before they fell asleep?

• 21:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:09Ryan Holiday?

  Because you had too many drinks at dinner.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, or just being on your phone.

• 21:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, totally.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  Or with anything, you know, I talk about sobriety and everything, but I feel like everybody has some sort of addiction.

• 21:23Ryan Holiday?

  Seneca says, we're all slaves to something.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and it could be ambition, which is work, could be fame, it could be attention, it could be social media. Yeah, it could be drugs or alcohol. It could be things that are socially acceptable or things that are socially unacceptable. But there's something that has power over you and that power is getting between you and your kids.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  Why do you think that is? Do you think it's like a control thing? Do you think it's just trying to find comfort in something or a purpose?

• 21:49Ryan Holiday?

  I mean, I think, I think probably all of the above. There's the stuff that takes the edge off. And then there's also the fact that other people design those things to be good at hooking people, right? Like, the smartest people in the world have designed that phone to be hard to resist.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 22:03Ryan Holiday?

  It's like you wouldn't live in a casino. You'd be like, this is a bad environment, but you sort of carry one around with you.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:09Ryan Holiday?

  So it's like, and we're just susceptible to it, right? Because we come from an environment of scarcity.

• 22:15Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 22:15Ryan Holiday?

  And to have unlimited amounts of things to scroll or check or it's its own addiction.