Pod Insights Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel Can We Repair After a 25 Year Affair? About this episode Through forty years of marriage, they built a life together. They immigrated to the United States, raised children, grew a business, and established a community. Six months ago, her longtime suspicion was confirmed: her husband had engaged in a twenty-five year affair with her cousin. Reeling from the truth, she questions how he could have done this to her. Overtaken with guilt, he hopes that time will heal their wounds. They arrive at Esther's office wondering what they can do to repair their relationship after this profound betrayal.
Esther is returning to SXSW on March 14th for a special live episode of Where Should We Begin. Visit http://voxmedia.com/sxsw to learn more and preregister.
Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments.
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Transcript 7,914 words · 11 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Speaker 00 None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.
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1:37 Esther Perel? They met for the first time on the day of their engagement. They are an arranged marriage. They had been promised to each other as teenagers. They came to the United States together to hope for the American dream, which they got to experience. And in the midst of this lives a 25-year affair.
2:03 Speaker 04 I lied to her many times, hiding. When she found out, it was really painful.
2:13 Speaker 05 Sometimes I wish I never found out. The fact that so many times he denied, and he was caught, and he was not honest is very disturbing to me.
2:27 Esther Perel? They are upstanding members of their community. They have large families. And I'm mentioning all of this because to understand the role of the affair is to understand its ripple effects on all these other relationships. And the questions of secrecy and transparency need to be mapped against this whole backdrop. The role of the therapist is to meet people where they are at and to accompany them wherever they choose to go because they are the only ones who will live with the consequences of their decisions. In this couple, the woman very clearly says to us, "I want this to work.
3:12 Esther Perel? I am not coming here for you to help me leave. It is a commitment for life. The affair is over and they want to recover from it or to continue from it." Maybe what I would consider is after an arranged marriage, this time they can have a chosen marriage.
3:36 Esther Perel? When you have an arranged marriage like the one you had, what were the ideals, the ambitions, that you brought with you about marriage? What is the conception of what marriage is about?
3:53 Speaker 05 It's about staying together for life. Divorce is not even an option. Like, that's not something that was acceptable.
4:02 Esther Perel? So it's a one-time enterprise with no exit and the commitment is for life. The reason I ask is because if that is the frame, then the way you deal with crisis is very different than if you think you have a way out.
4:20 Speaker 05 I mean, it's not like now, it's not acceptable. I mean, within our community, not in our immediate families. There have been divorce.
4:28 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
4:29 Speaker 05 And people are more open to the idea of separating. But still thinking about the families and the culture and the ties that you make within a marriage. It's hard to break. Not just two spouses getting apart, it's the whole family falling apart.
4:50 Esther Perel? Marriage is not between two individuals.
4:52 Speaker 05 Yes.
4:52 Esther Perel? Our marriage is between two families.
4:54 Speaker 05 Yes, and even more.
4:56 Esther Perel? And even more.
4:57 Speaker 05 Yeah.
4:58 Esther Perel? Okay. You, you, you wanna say something?
5:02 Speaker 04 Um, there was no choices but to listen to the parents. And this is going on for centuries, the way it was.
5:15 Esther Perel? Mm hmm, yep.
5:16 Speaker 04 So we had to listen and we have to go with their decision. That's how the normal life was.
5:26 Esther Perel? Mm hmm. There's another piece that was part of the normal life. I'm sure nobody went to see a therapist.
5:32 Speaker 05 Nobody. I think we are the first.
5:35 Esther Perel? Oh, wow.
5:38 Speaker 04 Yes.
5:39 Esther Perel? Right? What's that like for you to be sitting here right now?
5:44 Speaker 04 The way that this happened, the betrayal that happened is painful. But honestly, having a therapist and listening to the therapist, it opens our eyes. So I am blessed that I listened to you and some other podcasts. It opened my eyes that my mistakes causes so much to hurt other people.
6:16 Esther Perel? That was surprising to you.
6:20 Speaker 04 It was a surprise for me how much pain I caused. I lied to her many times, hiding. But when she found out, it was really painful. And I wish I would have stopped and not hurting her anymore. But that's my fault and I caused it. And I hope I can heal her moving forward. That's all I, whatever you can ask, I can just.
7:00 Esther Perel? I mean, I'm basically gonna ask you to tell me a little bit what happened.
7:05 Speaker 04 Yes.
7:06 Esther Perel? Which can be told in many different ways.
7:09 Speaker 04 Yes.
7:10 Esther Perel? But you can just give me the basics. We are gonna meet only once, so I don't need to know every detail.
7:17 Speaker 05 Yeah, so the person who he was engaged with was my cousin.
7:22 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm, same age?
7:24 Speaker 05 No, she's about fifteen, eighteen years younger to him.
7:27 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm.
7:28 Speaker 05 And a lot younger to me. She was somebody who we supported a lot because she grew up without a father. And she's my aunt's daughter, so when she came to America, I took her as a little sister, helped her get her everything and got her job. And we helped her get situated somehow or the other, she was living with us.
7:53 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm.
7:53 Speaker 05 And I could see she was very manipulative even then. Like she was lacking something that she was trying to find from any man that she met. So I saw little signs of him gravitating towards her even then. Um, like she needs a license, but only he can go and help her. Or she needs a car, only he wants to go help her. Whatever she needed, he would run and do it for her. So she had met somebody who she was about to get married around, it was in the early two thousands.
8:31 Esther Perel? So this is a story of how many years?
8:34 Speaker 05 Twenty-five, yeah. And he kind of tried to help her with setting up a business with the man she was marrying. And they started meeting alone and trying to discuss the business plans. And slowly trying to get closer, I guess, during that time. So one time it was Diwali and we had a party going on. And they both didn't show up and it was late. Trying to find him and he couldn't locate him. And then when they both arrived, I asked her, oh, what took you so long? Where were you? And she said, oh, I went to celebrate Diwali.
9:14 Speaker 05 And that was it. But then when I came home, something in my heart told me something wasn't right. So I confronted him that day and he acknowledged that he was with her. And they were in a parking lot, talking about the new business venture that she was opening, then nothing else. And I was like, why couldn't you talk about that venture in front of everybody? What was so secretive? And I still have that question, which I never got the answer for. And.
9:42 Esther Perel? The answer is that they never discussed business.
9:45 Speaker 05 I don't know what was it, but I I was ready to leave the house that day. He stopped me, he's like, there's nothing, you don't trust me, you don't believe me, there's nothing, there's nothing. I stayed and ever since. And I told her that.
10:00 Esther Perel? That was twenty-five years ago?
10:01 Speaker 05 Twenty-five years ago.
10:02 Esther Perel? And so for twenty-five years, you lived with a second sense?
10:06 Speaker 05 Yes, yes. From that day on, I told her to get out of my life, to get out of my house, that you're not welcome to my house anymore to live. But little did I know that she never went away from his life. And I always had some suspicion.
10:24 Esther Perel? Let me ask you, the suspicion was because of how he behaved toward you? The suspicion was because of how he would have his mysterious disappearances?
10:34 Speaker 05 No, he never disappeared.
10:38 Speaker 05 Uh but I knew he had some contact with her, something within me said, something's not right. And I, I used to have dreams about him marrying her. And I woke up and I told him all this. And he would just brush it off, never like even talk about it. And a few times I caught him texting her. And then he would say, oh, it was just because I wanted to have wish her happy birthday. Why do you have to wish her happy birthday? You don't even remember your sister's birthday, why would you remember her birthday? And then I still kept on giving him
11:17 Speaker 05 chances over chances over chances, I don't know why. So many times.
11:21 Esther Perel? May I suggest one reason?
11:25 Esther Perel? Because sometimes when you know, you have to deal with the consequences of knowing.
11:33 Esther Perel? So sometimes people live with a sense and they never translate that sense into knowing. Because knowing would demand that they take action. And it sometimes is an action they don't wanna take.
11:47 Speaker 05 It's possible. Sometimes I wish I never found out. It's like, how do I deal with the consequences?
11:56 Esther Perel? So that strange thought is actually very common. If I don't know, I wish I knew, and when I know, sometimes I wish I didn't know. Because knowing now puts me in a situation where I am not just dealing with how he betrays me, but I'm wondering if I'm betraying myself.
12:16 Speaker 05 Absolutely.
12:22 Esther Perel? People are often obsessed with the idea of how could you live for so long and not ask and not know or believe? And it's because there is something really very, sometimes dark and complicated in the idea that sensing is still better than having the truth. Because once you have the truth, you have to respond to it. Because once you have the truth, you can't say, I asked and he denied. Whatever he did is no longer determining of my response. Only my integrity, my choices, however compromising and imperfect they may be.
13:06 Esther Perel? And it's me vis a vis myself. As long as we are in the sensing zone, it's me and you. Once we are in the truth zone, it's me and me.
13:22 Speaker 05 But I also feel like I kind of am relieved. I'm not tracing him anymore. I'm not worried who he's talking to anymore. I was always like, who's he texting? Why is he texting? Why is he not sleeping? Why is he late?
13:36 Esther Perel? So this was very active?
13:38 Speaker 05 Very, I mean, at least in my mind. I don't know how active he was or no. But for me, everything was a suspicion. He moved, I would be like, where are you going? He's in the bathroom? I'm like, oh, does he have his phone with him? This is how I lived. For me, every minute was torture. But at least now I don't care. You want to talk to her, go talk to her. I really don't care anymore because it's kind of now out. And I know what the truth is. The lies were really bothering me more than his relationship. The fact that so many times he denied and he was caught and he was not honest is very disturbing to me.
14:20 Esther Perel? So what's it like for you when you hear this? And I mean, do you visualize it when she describes it? Are you back in the scene?
14:30 Speaker 04 Yes, um, obviously she got hurt because of my lies. And I stayed in touch. I texted three, four times a week. And that was an issue because I was hiding it from her.
14:51 Speaker 04 Because of my lie, she got hurt. And that's also my biggest regret. That, why did I go that far?
15:02 Esther Perel? You've said this a couple of times now, that it was very shocking to you to see your wife being so hurt. Why then? Why did that moment suddenly make you realize that your behavior was so hurtful? When for 25 years, she's asking you, "What's up?" And you were so dissociated in the lie that you couldn't imagine that it could hurt her?
15:33 Speaker 04 Um, first of all, thinking about in so many years that she saw me texting, I didn't listen to all that, that this person is not just with you. This person have done this to other people as well. I ignored it.
15:55 Esther Perel? This woman has seduced other men? Is that the idea?
15:58 Speaker 04 Yes, yes. But I felt comfortable with her and our relationship moved on. But to answer your question, I knew that I'm lying to her, but I didn't know the trauma situation, that my act had so many consequences. And one of the biggest consequence was the trauma that I caused, that I lost her trust. And it's very hard to gain it back.
16:37 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm.
16:39 Speaker 04 And for me, the person always showed me that I am a wanted person. She liked me being around. She has done the same thing to other people as well. But I fell for it.
16:57 Esther Perel? So my regret is that I fell to the seduction of my mistress?
17:02 Speaker 04 Yes.
17:02 Esther Perel? And that other people saw it from afar, whereas I let it wrap me?
17:11 Speaker 04 Yes.
17:12 Esther Perel? And why do you think you were more susceptible?
17:18 Speaker 04 My biggest reason was to help her out and that was my soft point. I mean, I have done that with other people in my life as well, but this was the one that I went too far.
17:36 Esther Perel? And what is it about being a sugar dad? That is so compelling.
17:43 Speaker 04 I don't know what's the meaning of sugar dad.
17:47 Esther Perel? You can guess. It's a word that you don't use, but I'm gonna introduce it to you.
17:54 Speaker 04 Sugar dad is, I don't know if I'm right to support someone in their life.
18:02 Esther Perel? No, because you can be generous to a lot of people. That's not the point.
18:08 Esther Perel? Did you see her as powerful? Powerful as in seductive?
18:15 Speaker 04 Yeah, I can say that, yes.
18:17 Esther Perel? And so my question to you is, what made you susceptible to her charm, her seductions, her brittleness, her neediness, her reliance on you? There's a paternal relationship here and she lost her daddy young.
18:36 Speaker 04 Yeah.
18:37 Esther Perel? And you come very kind. What made you susceptible? This woman did not do something to you that you did not want done to you.
18:50 Speaker 04 It was a seductive way of talking and she wanted something. It attracted me towards the person.
19:08 Esther Perel? We talked about her power of seduction and his power of being paternal, giving, but in an eroticized context. So that he wasn't just extracting, he was giving in return. And that made the relationship, in his eyes, more honorable.
19:35 Esther Perel? At the same time, he also realizes that he wasn't that special. He was one of many. And that this was her way of connecting, of bringing together something very erotic and something very nubile. As he begins to unravel this script, he becomes more aware of how it was a combination for him of feeling flattered and manipulated, which is one of the ways that the rapture begins to dissolve.
20:19 Esther Perel? And that's where the dissociation cracks open.
20:29 Esther Perel? We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.
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23:10 Speaker 04 And that's my regret is I did this for so long.
23:18 Esther Perel? So here's the thing. When you feel bad about what you've done, when you regret, when you have remorse, when you feel guilty, sometimes it prevents you from actually understanding why you did it.
23:34 Esther Perel? Because you feel so bad about it, that the last thing you want to do is actually think about why you did it.
23:40 Speaker 04 That's true.
23:41 Esther Perel? So, this question about why you were so susceptible. Who were you with her? What parts of you was she appealing to?
23:56 Esther Perel? Is it okay that I'm asking him these questions in front of you?
23:58 Speaker 05 Of course, these are the questions I've asked repeatedly and never gotten the answers. You know why?
24:04 Esther Perel? And the reason I'm asking it is because the temptation is sometimes to wanna find out the facts of the affair. What you did, when you saw her, where you went, which hotel, dah dah dah. It doesn't really help us. To know the facts doesn't really help us. The meaning of it is what will help. Not just what you did, but what it meant. And because you feel so bad about what it did, you're not really able to ask yourself, what was this like for me? I'm not a guy who usually does stuff like that. That's not who I am. I don't particularly think of myself as a liar. And yet, here I found myself lying consistently
24:49 Esther Perel? with this strange notion that if I lie and she doesn't know, then it won't hurt. You know?
24:56 Speaker 05 Our whole family respects him so much. He's looked upon as sincere, helpful, like everything you can imagine. My family loves him more than me for everything he's done for everybody.
25:11 Esther Perel? Who knows what? The whole system is involved now, or?
25:15 Speaker 05 Uh, no, no, no, no. I'm very reluctant to talk to any, like, only a few people.
25:20 Esther Perel? Because they would be so mad at him? That they would make it...
25:23 Speaker 05 And I don't, if I'm staying with him, my biggest thing is I don't want him to looked upon down or to maybe felt sorry for. Uh, people look up to us like we have the perfect life, the perfect home, the perfect family, the perfect car, the perfect house, the perfect beach house, the perfect vacation. We have everything anybody wants. I don't want that to go away if we are living together, if we wanna stay together. So why should they think of him differently?
26:00 Esther Perel? I don't want people to know, because once they see that, it's as if it will subsume everything else. The fact that he cheated is more important than all the other things that he has done. And they will think ill of him. And they will pity me, that I had no choice, or that I made the unfortunate choice to stay with this person. And they will disrespect him, and they will disrespect me. And that is a very layered, complex dilemma that so many people face at that moment. Because now she's beholding the secret of his secret.
26:46 Esther Perel? And this is an aspect of the recovery process that is not so known. When we collapse it all into yes or no, on or off, we bypass some of the more complicated, deeper decisions that we make in the process of this. And yet, they are so important and so determining for the life afterwards.
27:17 Speaker 05 So, he's a very helpful person. He's helped many people in his life. And that's, I think, the biggest problem that he fell into with her. I think him helping, helping, helping, and trying to give her the comfort of what she's missing. I don't know. Every celebration felt like it was with her. A week after my granddaughter was born, he went and he met her. A week after my dad passed, he went and he met her. It was hurtful.
27:48 Speaker 05 And ever since, I just cannot...
27:52 Speaker 05 I cannot accept, why would he do this to me? We have a perfect life, a good life. Everything I've tortured, like I've been tortured. I don't know why.
28:02 Esther Perel? I hear you. I hear you. And I'm not sure that he's going to be able to answer you right away. I'm not sure he knows.
28:16 Esther Perel? But if you say, "This is not the person that everybody knows", then there's another part of this person that has lived here, separate from the rest of you, that is dissociated. That doesn't mean it's okay. It just says, "There is this upstanding citizen that everybody admires, that is revered in the community, that has a perfect life, that wants to be respected, etc., etc." And la cote, next to it, is this very same person who is risking it all, basically.
28:49 Esther Perel? So, at this moment, you're revisiting the scene of the crime all the time in this kind of ruminating way. And you are revisiting your reaction to what it felt like to finally see the effect that your behavior had on her. And each of you is just replaying those two scenes. They're very, very powerful and painful, but they're holding you stuck. Instead of saying, "What I did to her, what I did to her", not because you shouldn't, but in addition, you have to ask yourself, "What was this about for me?" And that cannot just be because she was seductive and because she has charms.
29:31 Esther Perel? What does it mean to be a very respected, upright citizen who goes and is naughty on the other side? If we can get you a little bit unstuck from these two positions, because if she tells the story, you're looking into the emptiness, you're bracing yourself, you're waiting for it to end.
29:55 Esther Perel? You are not relating to her, you are not responding, you are not putting your hand on her, you're not making her feel better, you're not telling her, "I'm here with you now", you're just sitting there like a chastised man, boy, and waiting for it to stop.
30:11 Speaker 04 Yes, that's how we are.
30:13 Esther Perel? Yeah, it's not gonna be good.
30:17 Esther Perel? Turn to her. Tell her, don't tell me the same story again. You don't have to revisit it. We both know it. Join her. Help her.
30:28 Speaker 04 I get it, yes.
30:29 Esther Perel? I want you to remove those pillows and then take her hand and reach out.
30:35 Speaker 04 Yes.
30:36 Esther Perel? If you go into your corner, you freeze and you wait until the shower passes. You're going to really damage your relationship. Not that it hasn't been damaged yet, but this will not give you the repair and the return and the reconnection that you want.
30:57 Speaker 04 Thank you for telling me that. Thank you.
31:03 Esther Perel? So you may turn to her and then she may just say, "I don't believe you are... I'm not gonna let you put your hand on me if I don't know if it's gonna stay. It's been wandering for a long time."
31:16 Esther Perel? So then you have to be steady and not be instantly thwarted because she didn't welcome you with open arms.
31:29 Esther Perel? Do you think you can do that?
31:31 Speaker 04 I can do that.
31:33 Esther Perel? I'm daring you.
31:37 Speaker 05 He says that. Doing and saying is two different things.
31:43 Esther Perel? What would you want in this moment, for example, when you were retelling the whole...
31:50 Speaker 05 I've retold it so many times now that I don't expect anything from him at this point because... I mean, in the beginning, I was giving him the benefit of doubt that I was opening up to him. I was trying to accept him even with what he's done. And I kind of felt like I'm still doing the effort. He's not putting any effort in. I'm looking for a therapist. I'm trying to put things together. I'm trying to say, "Okay, let's go somewhere." I'm trying to make that connection and his life is the same.
32:31 Speaker 05 He's always like, "The time will heal it. Everything will be okay. Everything will be okay." That's his...
32:37 Esther Perel? Talk to him.
32:39 Speaker 05 That's your way of trying to say we'll get through it and whatever happens will happen. You're okay with if I stay with you or not stay with you or if I choose to go, whatever your decision is, I would.
32:55 Esther Perel? You believe that?
32:57 Speaker 05 I don't know. Obviously, he doesn't want me to go, but he doesn't say, no, that cannot happen. You have to stay. He's like, whatever you decide, it's fine with me. I'll support you either way. I'm not going back to her. But I don't want you to be stuck with me.
33:13 Esther Perel? And that's because you don't think you have any right to ask for anything? You've kind of used up your quota?
33:23 Speaker 04 Obviously, right. Uh, I am in a position right now that I cannot ask what I want. Because of what I did, but I'm hoping, um.
33:38 Speaker 05 In the very beginning, when I found out, I was actually aroused by having him again. And getting him back and promises that we're gonna have a good life, this, that, that. And we had some good times and even then I was making the effort all the time, not him. Maybe he was ashamed, maybe he was stuck, whatever, but I tried, but then that he still stuck or he's still ashamed. Or he's still in love, I don't know, but he's still not there. I don't feel his presence still.
34:18 Speaker 05 And I hear you all the time saying there are three or four marriages in everybody's life. And most of the time it's with the same person. And I feel like, okay, I can get remarried to him again, but should I? Is it again the right person to get remarried to?
34:38 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm.
34:39 Speaker 05 And I'm not there yet.
34:46 Esther Perel? She's talking to me in this moment and she refers to something that she heard me say in a talk where I said that today in the West, many people are going to have two or three adult relationships or marriages in their lifetime. And some of us will do it with the same person. And so when there is an affair, it sometimes spells the end of that marriage. And then the question opens itself up that says, "Would you like to have another one with each other?" And that has been a very hopeful thing for her because it gives her a dignified way to re-engage with him on a new relationship, on a new marriage.
35:32 Esther Perel? This is only six months. I know you think that's an eternity, but you can give it a stretch more.
35:40 Esther Perel? But that is a decision that only you can make. But the decision doesn't just come from inside. The decision comes from what you are creating together now.
35:55 Esther Perel? So when you say, "I don't feel like I can ask for anything right now. I've committed wrong and therefore I've used up my allowance."
36:08 Esther Perel? I'm going to say it differently to you. What your wife wants to feel more than anything from you is that you actually do want her.
36:17 Speaker 04 Obviously, yes.
36:20 Esther Perel? But don't say that to me.
36:22 Speaker 04 Yeah.
36:23 Esther Perel? And when I say "I want her", it's not just sexually, but it can include that. And that's what she's telling you. "I don't feel he really is there. I don't feel he really wants me." The whole us.
36:40 Esther Perel? And you're gonna need to convince her of that. Because an affair, and especially an affair of twenty-five years like that, is a fundamental devaluation of my importance.
36:54 Esther Perel? The lies, the duplicity, the deception, the betrayal, all of that basically said, I'm not that important. And so you need to convince her, if that is indeed what you want, of her value. The first thing is your regret, your guilt, but after that, it's you're affirming, I will fight for this.
37:20 Speaker 04 So I'm scared of that because I did that to her. And as, as you mentioned, that I'm in my shame, or I feel that guilt. But I get it, and I'll fight for it. And it been that situation that if I hug her later on, she said, I don't need your hug.
37:49 Esther Perel? And then what do you say? You leave?
37:52 Speaker 04 I retreat.
37:53 Esther Perel? Alright, and so in the new scenario, what would you do?
37:57 Speaker 04 I'll double hug or triple hug.
38:02 Esther Perel? And?
38:03 Speaker 04 I don't know.
38:05 Esther Perel? That's right, you don't know.
38:06 Speaker 04 I don't know.
38:10 Speaker 04 We always have think that she said, you don't care about me, or you don't love me.
38:20 Esther Perel? Says who?
38:21 Speaker 04 My wife. But I don't have the answer for it.
38:25 Esther Perel? You don't have the answer for?
38:27 Speaker 04 For if I care about you.
38:31 Esther Perel? Meaning I don't know?
38:34 Speaker 04 She wants to know a specific way to tell if I care about her.
38:41 Esther Perel? And why do you love me?
38:42 Speaker 04 Yes.
38:43 Esther Perel? In that sense?
38:44 Speaker 04 Yes. Did you ever care for me? And I admitted, okay, based on, I don't have any way to explain that I do care about you. I gave up and I said, probably that's right, I don't care about you.
39:01 Esther Perel? Oh, you capitulate?
39:03 Speaker 04 Yes, I said that.
39:07 Esther Perel? So here's how I understand this question. You have kids, you have your siblings, you have your nephews, your uncles, your aunts, your family, your community, your businesses, etc. I want to protect all of this. And I want to protect your reputation, partly for you and partly for myself.
39:32 Esther Perel? Because I don't want to feel that when I stay with you, I have everybody looking down at you and wondering, you know, what's she doing with him? I agree with that, I know. In the midst of all these reasons that are beyond her, that are maintaining the entire social network, is a very clear flicker that says, "But do you care about me?"
39:55 Esther Perel? Not just everything we build together, not just the scaffolding of our relationship, but the absolute connection between you and I.
40:05 Esther Perel? That's what she wants to know. Whether you love the other woman or you didn't, whether you can love two women, make love to two women, all of that. She will have to absorb all of this, but she, you know... Is there a little corner just that makes me special for you?
40:22 Esther Perel? Arranged or not arranged? I'm sure there's plenty of things that you appreciate about each other. That's what she needs to hear. Compliment her with everything you can tell her that you appreciate about her. And if she's as smart as she is, she knows that you did it with the other person. Because with the other person, you felt free. With the other woman, you felt, "I don't have to worry about being criticized, she's not going to pick a fight with me. I'm never doing anything wrong. I'm actually really loose, I'm playful, I'm alive, I'm sexy, I'm all of these things." And what she would like is for you to have some of this with her.
41:04 Esther Perel? In effect, they are in transition. In their arranged marriage, they were each inhabiting their roles. She was the wife, he was the husband. She was the mother, he was the father. She was the daughter-in-law, he was the son-in-law. And these roles were often it. And the transition is from being in a role to being really chosen as a person. From it to I am thou. And that's really what she needs to know. Am I more than just the person who fulfilled a role for you?
41:49 Esther Perel? Am I that person where your freedom and your free choice also directed itself to?
42:03 Esther Perel? We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.
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44:19 Speaker 05 And I've asked him. I've asked him that. He still doesn't.
44:23 Esther Perel? But you've asked what?
44:24 Speaker 05 Hey, you took her to a hotel. When did you book a hotel for me?
44:28 Esther Perel? Right.
44:28 Speaker 05 Never, ever. We've married for 40 years. Has he planned one thing for me? Never. But yes, he knows how to because he did it for her. So he knows how to please people. It's not like he doesn't know how to do it.
44:44 Esther Perel? He knows how to play and the question is, where is play between the two of you? Is that a part of your relationship? And often, in the middle of a revelation of an affair like that, either people completely split or they, as you described before, suddenly experience a sense of arousal and passion and intensity that they haven't felt in years.
45:09 Speaker 05 I did feel that in the beginning, but then I lost it because I didn't see it from him. So... And I still don't see it from him. He's still tight, just trying to get through life.
45:22 Esther Perel? To not disappoint you, to not make you angry. But that may have happened throughout your marriage. That is not new.
45:30 Speaker 04 Um, also it was about not.
45:34 Speaker 05 That you know how to play, but that you don't play in the family. You don't play in your marriage and you never have. You created a demarcation. Here I do the responsible stuff, there I do the fun and playful stuff. Here I'm tight, there I'm loose. Here I do the fearful husband, there I do the bold lover.
46:04 Speaker 04 Yeah, so throughout the years. My wife, she tried to um do her duty for the intimate portion of that because I wanted it. I enjoy that intimate portion of our life. But for some reason, I felt uh that she doesn't enjoy that portion. And I don't want to be playful if she doesn't want me that way.
46:34 Speaker 05 And you think she was just doing her wifely duty?
46:38 Speaker 04 It was doing her duty, but not.
46:41 Speaker 05 But not enjoying it.
46:42 Speaker 04 Enjoying it.
46:43 Speaker 05 But how could I when I know he has somebody else in his life? Throughout all the years? Throughout.
46:53 Speaker 04 So twenty five years.
46:55 Speaker 05 I know you're lying to me. I know you're have another life. How could I? But I was still doing my wifely duties.
47:05 Speaker 04 Yeah, and sometime even just reaching out to her on her side of the bed. She always thought that maybe I need something from her that I came on that side.
47:20 Speaker 05 But apart from sex, is it anything else that we do that we should enjoy together? That that is not your priority? That's what I'm saying. You've never booked a hotel for me. You've never taken me somewhere for dinner. I have done. I have planned everything. But he has never taken the effort to make me feel wanted, nothing.
47:50 Esther Perel? The sentence about how he has never booked a hotel room for the two of them, but he took his mistress to the hotel, could appear as petty. But in fact, this statement of jealousy, even of competitiveness, that lurks behind the anger is very, very important. Because what she highlights is that affairs are an erotic betrayal. She's not just suffering from the breach of trust that took place as a wife. This is not just an attachment injury. This is, we are part of a romantic story. And in that story, I want to feel that I'm your chosen one too.
48:35 Esther Perel? From a recovery point of view, the jealousy is very important because it is an energy that is striving, that wants something. And it actually is a counterforce to the collapse that sometimes can be experienced when one is just purely a victim of rejection and dejection. This may sound a little strange, but I knew she understood it. I knew she felt it. I understand that you went to play elsewhere. And now, if you are to be with me, I want to be that playmate with you. And that is an invitation. And that is a very different way of redefining the relationship.
49:21 Speaker 04 You're right on that. I'm guilty for that. She is a good planner. Wherever we go, she plans.
49:30 Esther Perel? Yeah, but that's...
49:30 Speaker 04 Yeah.
49:32 Esther Perel? Doesn't matter. You know, if people could bring 10% of their initiatives and imagination that they bring to their affairs into their marriages, their marriages would be doing a lot better. Yes. So, there's a complacency. I don't have to. She's a better planner. And you have a dance here. Yes, for me to enjoy it, I need to know that you're enjoying it too and you're into it. It's a two-way thing, it's not just for me. But for me to be not just doing my duty, I like to know that you're actually into me and that you want me. And that involves certain romancing, which you have actually never done. So indeed, you are right to think that I'm not so interested.
50:16 Esther Perel? And indeed, you are right to think that I am not really making the effort to let you know that I really want to connect with you. And you don't feel wanted by him, and he didn't necessarily feel wanted by you. And there are loads of reasons how one finds oneself in that place, but this is an easy door.
50:42 Esther Perel? People don't have a 25-year affair with someone who they wonder if they want them. That's taken care of.
50:50 Esther Perel? And how you let each other know that that's not the case now is an invitation for both of you. Every time you think, "I don't have to make a reservation because she's a better planner", you are adding another brick to the marital graveyard.
51:11 Speaker 04 That might be one of the reasons, because she is very particular about what she wants.
51:20 Esther Perel? It doesn't matter. You tell her, "I did it for us, I did it the way I thought it would be nice, be gracious."
51:29 Speaker 05 Okay, if you know me...
51:30 Esther Perel? See, the point, no, no, this is the thing, no, don't go. Because he's gonna tell you, "Why bother doing anything? You're so particular, you know exactly the way you want it. If I do it my way, you're not gonna appreciate it." And then you're gonna tell him, "You know me so well, why don't you know exactly what to do that would be what I like?" And then what you will have is him on strike and you complaining.
51:53 Speaker 05 But if he knows me, right? He knows me.
51:56 Esther Perel? No, it doesn't work this way.
51:57 Speaker 05 No.
51:57 Esther Perel? It doesn't. It actually doesn't.
51:59 Speaker 05 But he should at least try.
52:02 Esther Perel? But he should try and you need to tell him, please try, I'll be gracious.
52:08 Esther Perel? I will appreciate it for the gesture.
52:10 Speaker 05 I will be.
52:11 Esther Perel? Do you understand? It's each of you is gonna have to tell the other, I will do my part.
52:16 Speaker 05 Yeah.
52:16 Esther Perel? You cannot not do it because she's not, she's gonna not be happy about it, no matter what.
52:21 Speaker 04 I, I, I listen to you and I don't care if she gets upset going forward.
52:28 Esther Perel? You know, okay, so you know what you make me think about? Since you never dated before you got married.
52:35 Speaker 04 Obviously.
52:38 Esther Perel? I think you need to date. This is what you're both talking about.
52:45 Esther Perel? You take each other out on dates.
52:47 Speaker 05 And maybe he needs to date me because I've done that.
52:51 Esther Perel? No, but you can't, if you go and you tell him, I've done this our entire marriage, it's always been me, so. It's maybe totally true, but it's not productive.
53:02 Esther Perel? But if you are considering putting your first marriage to rest and exploring whether there's a second marriage that you wanna have with each other
53:13 Esther Perel? and do it not from a place of resentment and bitterness, but really, this is an invitation for us to do something else.
53:26 Esther Perel? We won't undo what happened, but the meaning that we give to it will determine what we can become.
53:34 Esther Perel? And that's a very different way to enter into this.
53:38 Speaker 04 Definitely, yes.
53:42 Speaker 05 Because I feel like I have tried and done, but he hasn't and he doesn't take the steps to initiate anything again. So for me, I'm kind of like giving up at this point. Like, why should I keep on doing it?
54:00 Esther Perel? Uh huh.
54:00 Speaker 05 Maybe I should accept it and move on and I shouldn't have to ask for connection or ask for love or ask for anything. Maybe we can still live together and live our own lives and till one of us dies and. That's gonna be the end of it.
54:20 Esther Perel? You know what? It could be an option, but it's not yours. Because it's not what you really want. At least not yet.
54:28 Speaker 05 I don't.
54:28 Esther Perel? And it's not necessarily what he really wants, either.
54:33 Speaker 04 I, I want to tell you that I'm tired of living a double life.
54:41 Speaker 04 And my commitment is to you. And if you allow me to keep it that way, I'm ready for it. And I want to give you a peace of mind that
55:04 Speaker 04 what I did in the past, I'm not going to do it in the future. And I am truthful to you. So I am looking forward. As Esther said, you can remarry. And I want you to feel that way.
55:30 Speaker 04 I'm sorry I realized it very late, but...
55:36 Speaker 05 What took you so long to realize it? Why do you realize it now, is my question?
55:44 Speaker 04 I'm not doing it for the show or anything, or to show other people. I love the way we used to laugh and
55:59 Speaker 04 connect with each other. That connection has broken, but I can try my best and look forward to connect with you. And no matter what it takes, I'm there for you. I don't want we keep on arguing and fighting with each other. Let's start the connection as this moment.
56:34 Esther Perel? Every affair will redefine a relationship, or in this case, a marriage. But every relationship will determine what the impact of the affair will be. This is their crossroads.
56:58 Speaker 00 Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hat. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
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Previous Trapped In Their Own Story Next Am I Letting My Jealousy Ruin This? Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated