Philippe, Duc d’Orléans (Radio Edit)

Greg Jenner is joined in 17th-century France by Dr Jonathan Spangler and comedian Tom Allen to learn all about Philippe, Duc d’Orléans, Louis XIV’s younger brother. King Louis XIV is one of the most famous monarchs in French history: the man who built and presided over the glittering court at Versailles, established himself as an absolute ruler, and whose 72-year reign is still the longest in European history. But what about his younger brother, Philippe? Who was the man who grew up and lived in the shadow of the Sun King? Raised to defer to his brother at all costs, his promising military career was cut short when it seemed like he might outshine Louis. When all eyes were on him as heir to the throne, he would wear dresses to provoke shock at courtly balls. He balanced his marriage to his witty German wife, Liselotte, with a decades-long relationship with his aristocratic male lover, the Chevalier de Lorraine – and other men of the court. And he maintained an image as a louche and irresponsible courtier while increasing his personal wealth through clever financial management. This episode explores the complexities and contradictions of Philippe’s life, and examines the difficult position of second sons in royal history. This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Emma Mitchell Written by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Dr Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett Senior Producer: Dr Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:47Greg Jenner?

  Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are slipping into our ball gowns and sauntering over to 17th century France to learn all about Louis XIV, less famous but more fabulous brother, Philippe du Cte d'Or. And to help us, we have two very special guests. In History Corner, he's a senior lecturer in history. At Manchester Metropolitan University, where he specialises in the aristocracy of early modern France and its neighbours. Luckily for us, he's also an expert on royal courts and is the author of Monsieur: Second Sons in the Monarchy of France. It's Dr Jonathan Spangler. Welcome, Jonathan.

• 2:23Speaker 04

  Hello, thanks. It's great to be here today.

• 2:25Greg Jenner?

  Delighted to have you here. And in comedy corner, he's a top-class comedian, writer and presenter. You'll know him from loads of comedy TV shows, as well as from Bake Off, An Extra Slice, The Apprentice, You're Fired. Maybe you've read his hilarious memoirs, No Shame and Too Much? Or perhaps you've listened to one of his podcasts, Like-Minded Friends and Pottering. It's Tom Allen. Welcome to the show, Tom.

• 2:45Speaker 05

  Well, Greg, thank you for that lovely welcome. I'm so excited to be here, especially with Jonathan, whose speciality is exactly what I'm interested in. Second sons in aristocracies across northern Europe. Actually, any kind of aristocratic life, I think, because I've always fancied myself as an aristocrat.

• 3:03Greg Jenner?

  Oh, really?

• 3:04Speaker 05

  Yeah. Which is unfortunate, considering I went to a comprehensive school in Bromley. So, but much to my family and friends' chagrin, chagrin, I've often tried to pretend I'm an aristocrat and been very quickly knocked down. Maybe that'll change today.

• 3:22Greg Jenner?

  Well, I mean, you dress beautifully, so I think you certainly, you've certainly passed master on the, on the looks.

• 3:27Speaker 05

  We're going out on the BBC, aren't we?

• 3:29Greg Jenner?

  We are.

• 3:30Speaker 05

  Some of us like to keep standards on this broadcasting corporation. So I think, I would like it if all Radio 4 presenters and announcers still wore a dinner jacket.

• 3:41Greg Jenner?

  Right, I'm so sorry. I didn't bring mine.

• 3:43Speaker 05

  Well, Greg, I wasn't going to spoil it for the listener, I was going to say, I'm so glad you've stuck to that tradition, Greg.

• 3:47Speaker 04

  No, I'm in a ball gown.

• 3:50Greg Jenner?

  Tom, are you a history lover? Do you enjoy history?

• 3:55Speaker 05

  I have always loved history. I almost did it at university, but then rather precociously, like a second son of any French aristocrat, decided I didn't need it. I said, "Let me go." But I nearly, I went to an interview at Clare College in Cambridge. Of course, applied there because I thought it was the nicest building, as any fool would, and applied for a very popular course there and did not know what I was doing and was very roundly rejected. And that sort of put me off a bit, and so I think I decided to pursue showbiz instead, which I think probably was the right thing.

• 4:26Greg Jenner?

  So, what do you know?

• 4:33Greg Jenner?

  This is the So What Do You Know? This is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Philippe is perhaps best known for lavish dramas about his brother, Louis, King Louis. In the film A Little Chaos, Philippe is played by a suave Stanley Tucci. In The Man in the Iron Mask, he and Louis are reimagined as twins and both played by Leonardo DiCaprio. But my personal fave, of course, is the TV drama Versailles, shown on the BBC, which I got to discuss every week as the co-host of BBC Two's Inside Versailles with Professor Kate Williams. Bonjour! But was Philippe more than just King Louis' chaotic little brother? What's it like to grow up as the spare? And how long can you really keep a menage a trois going? Let's find out. Right, Dr Jonathan, let's start with the start.

• 5:16Greg Jenner?

  When little Prince Philippe was born, who were his parents? Presumably kings, queens?

• 5:22Speaker 04

  Yes, that's right. So if you're a prince, generally your parents are a king and a queen. And in this case, France is often very boring in that they always choose the name Louis. So his father's name is Louis XIII. His mother's name is Anne of Austria, which is a bit confusing because she's from Spain. But the House of Austria governs in Spain, and so that's the way they call her, Anne de Triche in French. So Louis and Anne are his parents. He's born in 1640, right in the middle of the 17th century almost. And he had an older brother who was called Louis XIV eventually, but at the time he's called the Dauphin. Philippe and Louis were both born after over 15 years of marriage for his parents. And so there was this miracle moment in 1638 when Louis XIV is born.

• 6:05Speaker 04

  And so they, of course, name him le Dieu donné, which is the God-given Son.

• 6:09Greg Jenner?

  Oh, lovely. That's what people said about me, actually.

• 6:14Speaker 04

  And it's quite an entrance into the world, I think.

• 6:16Greg Jenner?

  So even as the spare, young Prince Philippe, you know, the second son, but still a prince, he's having presumably a very prestigious upbringing. He's going to be educated to be a king, or does he get a different education?

• 6:28Speaker 04

  Well, he's being educated to be a king because in the 17th century, infants often died after only a year or two, or nine or 10. So Philippe was always called the spare. He was always the next one in line. So he had to be raised the same way. They had a governess, they had tutors, they had horse riding, fencing. Military history, military strategy. At the same time, there was always a bit of a limit in that Louis XIV was always the first, and Philippe always had to defer to him, no matter what. So their psychological relationship was set up from the very, very start.

• 7:01Speaker 05

  And when you say defer, what would that have meant on a day to day?

• 7:05Speaker 04

  Well, it would have meant that if Louis XIV stood up, well, let's call him the Dauphin. Louis stood up, Philippe would have had to stand up. I mean, that kind of thing.

• 7:11Speaker 05

  Right.

• 7:11Speaker 04

  But we also have stories of them being boys and throwing things at each other and fighting on the floor. And then Philippe is chided because you can't strike your older brother. He's the Dauphin of France.

• 7:22Greg Jenner?

  That's, I mean, can you imagine that? Mom!

• 7:25Speaker 05

  I told you.

• 7:27Greg Jenner?

  A tragedy strikes very young for these two boys. France loses its king, right? Louis XIII dies, and the boys are four, three?

• 7:36Speaker 04

  Right, so four years old and three years old. It's the middle of the 17th century. There are wars raging both with Germany and Spain. France has been at war for over 10 years. Their mother, Anne of Austria, tries to take the reins of government with Cardinal Mazarin by her side. But the old elites, the princes, the dukes, they don't want to have anything of that. They think they should be running the government as well. So they stage a battle, a civil war called the Front in France. And it gets to be so scary that at one point Anne takes the boys and just escapes the countryside to Saint-Germain-le, in the western parts of Paris. The other character who's revolving around in the background that I think we shouldn't forget is Louis XIII's younger brother. So there's another generation of all this. Gaston is still alive. Gaston is dashing and lovely.

• 8:21Speaker 04

  He's one of my favorites. But he is at the head of this rebellion.

• 8:26Speaker 05

  And not to put everything into popular culture, but is he the one in The Three Musketeers? I'm actually not talking about the film.

• 8:33Speaker 04

  It probably is.

• 8:34Speaker 05

  I'm not thinking of the novel. I'm actually thinking of the cartoon.

• 8:38Greg Jenner?

  I think of Doctanion.

• 8:39Speaker 05

  Doctanion, yeah.

• 8:41Greg Jenner?

  That famous documentary.

• 8:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, I don't know if that's one that you study a lot, Jonathan.

• 8:45Greg Jenner?

  You're right, there is a Gaston, isn't there?

• 8:46Speaker 04

  I'm aware of it, but I haven't seen it.

• 8:47Speaker 05

  It's dubbed in English as well.

• 8:49Greg Jenner?

  So Uncle Gaston. It's nice to know that every family has a problematic uncle, even in the 17th century.

• 8:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, should we get into that?

• 8:58Greg Jenner?

  The one thing we do need to address, and I'm curious whether this is gossip rumor, there is this sort of story that Philippe is dressed as a girl.

• 9:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, so the idea really is that while Gaston's still alive, Philippe needs to be trained how to be different because Gaston was involved in civil wars. From the 1620s all the way to the 1650s, constantly rebelling. And they thought, well, let's do something different. So later historians, I think 19th century Victorian historians are to blame, said, oh, well, they emasculated him. They made Philippe gay so that he couldn't challenge the throne. And I think that's ridiculous. Because why would you do that?

• 9:38Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, that wouldn't have served them.

• 9:39Speaker 04

  Well, particularly given that Louis XIV could have died at any moment.

• 9:42Greg Jenner?

  Yes, yes.

• 9:43Speaker 04

  And then suddenly you are stuck with, oh, dear, what have we done?

• 9:46Greg Jenner?

  He's the backup plan, right? He's the future of France if Louis gets a cold.

• 9:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:50Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 9:50Speaker 04

  So logically, it really doesn't make sense. But I think the Victorians liked that idea.

• 9:54Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 9:55Speaker 04

  So he is a bit freer and is a bit different. And I think his character, he's written about as much more energetic, much more fun, much more unpredictable, I think. But sometimes people also critiqued him for being too frivolous, too childish, not serious enough, not, you know, you're supposed to be the second man of France.

• 10:10Greg Jenner?

  He's fun with his friends, he's having a laugh, but maybe he's not quite growing up.

• 10:15Speaker 04

  Right.

• 10:15Greg Jenner?

  Fast enough.

• 10:16Speaker 05

  It's a tough one, though, isn't it? Being an understudy like that, always rehearsing for a gig you're never gonna, potentially never gonna get.

• 10:22Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are stories of him showing up to court in a ball gown.

• 10:28Speaker 04

  Yeah. So one of the best memoirs we have of the time, which is very much worth a read, is the memoirs of his first cousin, whose name, guess what, is La Grande Mademoiselle.

• 10:39Speaker 04

  And her memoirs are hilarious because she thinks she's the most important person in Europe. And her memoirs start that way. They say, well, I'm writing these memoirs because everyone should be reading them.

• 10:51Greg Jenner?

  Again, that sort of sense of self-importance, I think, is so fascinating in an age when we're encouraged to be quite meek and quite sort of muted.

• 10:58Speaker 04

  She was anything but. So she's Gaston's daughter, by the way.

• 11:01Greg Jenner?

  She's like an Instagram influencer. Yeah, okay, so she's Gaston's daughter. And she's telling us that Philippe shows up dressed as a shepherdess?

• 11:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, they did together.

• 11:09Greg Jenner?

  Oh, right, okay.

• 11:09Speaker 04

  So they were often paired together to come to balls or dances as a... As potential partners, you know.

• 11:17Speaker 05

  Right, okay.

• 11:18Speaker 04

  They may have gotten married, even though she's 20 years older than he. But yes, she describes in her memoirs how quite clearly there is an event where they turn up together as shepherdesses and they sort of parade around.

• 11:29Speaker 05

  They seem to love shepherdesses because later on Marie Antoinette loves to dress up as one of those. Good knowledge. There's some like thing in the French court of like, what should we dress as? Like sort of tarts and vicars party.

• 11:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, it is, yeah. So the upper class dressing as peasants and shepherds is quite funny.

• 11:44Speaker 05

  Oh, I see. That was a thing they did.

• 11:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:47Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, it's the ultimate role reversal, isn't it?

• 11:49Speaker 05

  It's interesting to me that we talk about like drag or we talk about kind of people, yeah, wearing different clothes than society might expect of them. And it creates this uproar, but I kind of do think, well, for a long, long time.

• 12:00Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 12:01Speaker 05

  Particularly wealthy, powerful people have worn the most flamboyant things you can imagine, much more flamboyant than anything anybody would wear today.

• 12:07Greg Jenner?

  Well, we did an episode on the history of high heel shoes, which were first invented for men.

• 12:11Speaker 05

  Right, yes.

• 12:12Greg Jenner?

  And so, yeah, the history of the gendering of that type of shoe is really interesting. It goes back and forth, you know.

• 12:17Speaker 05

  Fascinating.

• 12:18Greg Jenner?

  But let's talk about Philippe as the spare, right? So he's the understudy, which is awkward enough, but I suppose he has to be ready. Louis, the king, does feel, he gets very, very unwell in 1658, and there is the possibility he's going to die.

• 12:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, so this is one of the places where I think people thought Philippe might become like Gaston and would champion a rebellion. A court coup was kind of brewing because Louis XIV was very sick. And Philippe doesn't really play the role he's supposed to. There's a whole coterie of people gathering around his bed saying, now's the time, now's the time. And he just starts crying because he loves his brother so much. And if Louis had died, of course Philippe would have become king. But I think right away it shows that Philippe is of a different character to Uncle Gaston in that he doesn't really want to seize power.

• 13:05Greg Jenner?

  But obviously in 1661, King Louis has a son, which means Philippe's role as spare, immediately he's no longer needed, right?

• 13:13Speaker 04

  Right.

• 13:13Greg Jenner?

  He's now the understudy to the understudy.

• 13:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:16Greg Jenner?

  So he's kind of, he's had the Uncle Gaston treatment.

• 13:20Speaker 05

  Yeah, he's been Gaston.

• 13:21Greg Jenner?

  He's been Gaston.

• 13:22Speaker 05

  Yeah. Oh, no.

• 13:25Greg Jenner?

  We haven't really mentioned romance.

• 13:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:26Greg Jenner?

  I mean, you mentioned the shepherdess. Does that work out?

• 13:30Speaker 04

  So, yeah, there is a plan to marry Monsieur with La Grand Mademoiselle. And there is another cutting line from her where she says, having seen what he is like, I think I'd rather marry no one at all.

• 13:43Greg Jenner?

  Oh, no, I thought they were great friends.

• 13:44Speaker 04

  Well, no, they were great friends, but I mean, she's a smart woman and she realizes that his interests already are not in women. In 1660, 1661, France needed a new ally across the channel. So Louis XIV looked to his cousin, Charles II, who was the King of England and Scotland. And he arranges a marriage with Charles's sister, who is called Henriette Anne, or Henriette in French.

• 14:05Greg Jenner?

  He has been promoted. He's now a duke at this point because Gaston has died. Uncle Gaston has gone, which means his title is up for grabs. And King Louis says, all right, you get to be the Duke of Orleans. Henriette is now the Duchess of Orleans. So Mr. And Mrs. Orleans, whatever the rules are, do they have kids?

• 14:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, right away.

• 14:24Greg Jenner?

  Do they?

• 14:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:25Greg Jenner?

  Oh.

• 14:25Speaker 04

  So much to everybody's surprise, probably, they have a daughter called Marie Louise right away. And then there's a boy who doesn't live very long called the Duke of Valois and another girl a bit later called Marie Anne. So they do have children.

• 14:38Greg Jenner?

  So we get the scent Henriette and Philippe. There's love there, but there's also real rivalry there and petty jealousies.

• 14:45Speaker 04

  There's a guy called the Comte de Guiche, who's this very handsome man who comes in.

• 14:50Speaker 05

  Comte de Kish.

• 14:53Greg Jenner?

  Kish Lorraine, what?

• 14:54Speaker 04

  And Guiche is very violent. There are stories of him sort of being beaten almost by Guiche, which are a little weird. But Henriette sweeps in and takes him as her boyfriend.

• 15:06Speaker 05

  And the idea of labeling is also not really

• 15:08Speaker 04

  No.

• 15:09Speaker 05

  happening there, that people aren't coming out.

• 15:11Speaker 04

  Right, so there was no concept really of homosexual. There was no concept of an identity that you would choose or not choose.

• 15:18Speaker 05

  Right.

• 15:19Speaker 04

  And I think we should be clear to say this is a very upper class thing. So middle class people, oh, they're tutting away.

• 15:26Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 15:27Speaker 04

  The job is almost always, if you can keep this inside the court, that's fine.

• 15:33Speaker 05

  Have your quiche. Have your quiche and eat it.

• 15:35Greg Jenner?

  Well, we go from quiche to Lorraine because actually

• 15:38Speaker 05

  Yes, on the way.

• 15:39Greg Jenner?

  the next man is the Chevalier de Lorraine.

• 15:41Speaker 05

  Oh, my goodness, on ITV at 9 a.m.

• 15:44Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 15:46Greg Jenner?

  Have you ever heard of the Chevalier de Lorraine?

• 15:49Speaker 05

  The horseman of Lorraine? No.

• 15:51Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, the knight of it, yeah.

• 15:52Speaker 05

  The knight. Oh, yeah, is that right?

• 15:53Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 15:54Speaker 05

  No, I haven't actually. As I say, only his quiche.

• 15:57Greg Jenner?

  It's a delightful quiche, very nice. I mean, Jonathan, this, I think it's fair to say, is Philippe's great love.

• 16:03Speaker 04

  Yes. Other men come and go in this story, but the Chevalier de Lorraine and Philippe are together for about forty years.

• 16:09Greg Jenner?

  Really?

• 16:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, which I've never found an example like that in the seventeenth century, of two men together like that. And so the Chevalier de Lorraine is a great character because he was good-looking, he was charming, he was from a really old family, the oldest family in Europe, but he had no money at all. So he was totally dependent on Philippe.

• 16:29Greg Jenner?

  A forty-year relationship, in some regards, lovely, beautiful, wonderful. In other ways, he is married. How do you think Henriette, his wife, dealt with? Yeah, I know, you did, yeah. How do you think she dealt with the Chevalier? How do you think she handled him?

• 16:42Speaker 05

  Wasn't, but she's still, isn't she off with, what's his name?

• 16:45Speaker 04

  Quiche.

• 16:46Speaker 05

  Quiche, yeah. She's having her quiche and eating it.

• 16:50Speaker 05

  She's, so she's, is he still knocking around with her?

• 16:53Speaker 04

  No, they've sent him off to the front.

• 16:55Speaker 05

  Oh, God.

• 16:56Speaker 04

  Once it got too scandalous, he had to be sent away.

• 16:58Greg Jenner?

  Sent off to war, to hopefully get shot, you know.

• 17:01Speaker 05

  Yeah. Oh, so imagine she's furious then.

• 17:04Speaker 04

  Yes, she's furious and the Chevalier and Henriette don't get along and they're always throwing barbs at each other.

• 17:12Speaker 04

  But then the interesting twist comes along when she decides really that she wants to be a lot more politically active. And so Louis XIV needed more allies, so he sent her off to England to meet with her brother. And Henriette and Charles have a tête-à-tête in Dover, they sign a treaty. She comes back to France in triumph, everyone is saying what a great job she's had. And this is June of sixteen seventy, she suddenly becomes very sick after drinking chicory, which is sort of like hot chocolate, and dies very soon after.

• 17:46Greg Jenner?

  Oh, no.

• 17:50Speaker 01

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• 19:02Speaker 02

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• 20:08Greg Jenner?

  We have now Philippe, the father of children, no longer married with a stable boyfriend. There's no real reason for him to remarry.

• 20:16Speaker 04

  Not necessarily, no. But Louis XIV only has one son. And even though the Dauphin is now 10, he still could die.

• 20:24Greg Jenner?

  Chickery happens.

• 20:25Speaker 04

  Chickery happens.

• 20:29Speaker 04

  And Louis XIV needs new allies. There's a state called the Palatinate, which controls the Middle Rhine. And so Louis XIV gets a girl from the Palatinate, who is a wonderful character, who we'll talk about a bit more now, called Elizabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate. We call her Lise Lotte, which is not really correct. It's what the Germans call her. Lizzie with a Z. She's called Madame Palatine by the French.

• 20:53Greg Jenner?

  Lise Lotte is a fantastically enjoyable character. Her letters are incredible.

• 20:57Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 20:58Greg Jenner?

  They're so funny. She herself, how does she describe herself, Jonathan?

• 21:02Speaker 04

  So we are so lucky as historians that she left behind thousands of letters. Almost every day she wrote letters to relatives, either in England or in Germany. And they are hilariously funny. And she even has a very funny letter where she says, you know, "I've always made fun of my ugliness. Quote, 'My father and my late brother often told me how unattractive I was. I laughed it off and never cared. My brother called me Badger Nose and I laughed even harder.'"

• 21:30Greg Jenner?

  Bless her. She sounds like a lot of fun.

• 21:33Speaker 04

  I have a lot of time for her.

• 21:34Greg Jenner?

  Yeah. Yes, and it's quite self-deprecating then for her. She's sort of out there, physical, you know, strong and hilariously funny. Her letters are fantastic. But we must talk about the Chevalier again because he came back into the picture.

• 21:45Speaker 04

  He will not leave the picture, will he?

• 21:47Greg Jenner?

  He's not getting the memo and 1672, he's back in the life. And he sort of, you know, ruins the honeymoon period with Lise Lotte.

• 21:54Speaker 04

  I bet he absolutely hates poor old Lise Lotte.

• 21:57Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, maybe, yeah.

• 21:58Speaker 04

  She sounds like she's funnier than him, which gays hate.

• 22:03Greg Jenner?

  They suffer tragedy, the couple, right? They lose a child.

• 22:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, so there is another boy that's born, but he only lives a year or so. And so they do suffer this tragedy, which brings them together. And I think throughout all of it, even if he has this boyfriend and other boyfriends, they do feel like a really good couple for the rest of their lives. So it's a very strange kind of three-way relationship. But then, once the child-rearing age kind of passes, I think the Chevalier decides, now is my time again, and I want to be really the head of this household.

• 22:33Greg Jenner?

  Really?

• 22:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:34Greg Jenner?

  So he's quite ambitious.

• 22:35Speaker 04

  He is very ambitious, and all the commentators say he runs Philippe's household.

• 22:41Greg Jenner?

  The children, we should mention their names. It's another Philippe, little Philippe, Duke de Chard, and Elizabeth Charlotte, or Charlotte. And so after 1677, their relationship is struggling. But we need to talk about something that might be a little surprising. We've talked about Philippe as a man of great flair and laughter.

• 22:57Speaker 05

  My goodness, have we? Yeah.

• 22:59Greg Jenner?

  He's also a great warrior.

• 23:01Speaker 05

  Warrior or warrior?

• 23:02Greg Jenner?

  Oh, that's a good point. I mean, technically, probably a bit of both, but warrior, warrior.

• 23:06Speaker 05

  Oh, he's a good fighter.

• 23:07Greg Jenner?

  He's a lover and a fighter, Tom.

• 23:09Speaker 05

  A lover and a fighter, goodness me, yeah.

• 23:11Greg Jenner?

  He goes to war.

• 23:12Speaker 04

  Yes, so that's one of the very interesting shocks of the life, is that they go to war. It's boringly called the Dutch War in the middle of the 1670s. But at one point in 1677, he's in Flanders on his own, and the king isn't there. And it's a small village called Castle. And our good friend William III, who's also in favor of boys.

• 23:32Greg Jenner?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 23:33Speaker 04

  Yes. They face each other on the battlefield, and surprise, surprise, Philippe trounces him.

• 23:39Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 23:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:40Greg Jenner?

  So William III would, of course, be King William of England, right?

• 23:43Speaker 04

  Right, not yet.

• 23:43Greg Jenner?

  Not yet.

• 23:44Speaker 04

  So in 1677, he's the statholder of the Netherlands. He's the Prince of Orange.

• 23:47Greg Jenner?

  But he will be William, as in William and Mary.

• 23:49Speaker 04

  Right, in 10 years' time, he will become William and Mary in this country.

• 23:53Greg Jenner?

  So Philippe wins a huge victory at the Battle of Castle, but do you know what he was doing at the start of the battle?

• 23:58Speaker 05

  His nails?

• 23:59Greg Jenner?

  Almost, he was adjusting his wig. The battle had started, his men were fighting, and he was still in his tent, just...

• 24:04Speaker 05

  Oh, which I absolutely respect, and I think the men would have respected him for that as well.

• 24:09Greg Jenner?

  You can't go to battle, you know, with a loose fringe.

• 24:11Speaker 05

  Absolutely, yes.

• 24:13Greg Jenner?

  But this is Philippe's shiny military moment, and he gets back to Paris, back to Versailles, and his brother, the king, says...

• 24:21Speaker 04

  Basically, nothing.

• 24:22Greg Jenner?

  Oh, no.

• 24:23Speaker 04

  So I think in the history of their relationship, Louis, between the brothers, Louis and Philippe, this is really the high point of Louis being a really, I think, awful brother to Philippe and not treating him very well. And that carries on then for the next decade. He doesn't give him another command ever again. Because I think he's embarrassed and he doesn't like little brother having done so well in a battle.

• 24:45Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so what do you think Philippe does to find a new path to independence from his brother? What's his new career move?

• 24:52Speaker 05

  Musicals.

• 24:59Greg Jenner?

  Crypto?

• 25:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, crypto's big.

• 25:02Greg Jenner?

  He sort of goes into finance and business and, oh, good. He's suddenly very good with his pennies.

• 25:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, so the other rather surprising turn, you might say, for someone who was so frivolous in his twenties. Now he's in his thirties and forties. He develops his lands, his appanage, and he builds a canal, he builds agricultural systems. He makes the land that he's been given profitable, doubles its income. And then he gets a big windfall because, guess what? La Grand Mademoiselle dies.

• 25:30Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 25:31Speaker 04

  Still unmarried, and he gets it all.

• 25:33Speaker 05

  Really? Oh, so she did like him in the end?

• 25:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. She gives him all the money and it's not tied to the crown, the way his other money is. So he becomes financially independent.

• 25:42Greg Jenner?

  Oh, so it's his private wealth?

• 25:43Speaker 04

  His private money.

• 25:44Greg Jenner?

  Oh, lovely.

• 25:45Speaker 04

  And that's hugely different.

• 25:46Speaker 05

  Heaven.

• 25:47Greg Jenner?

  Still married to Lisa Lotte, of course.

• 25:49Speaker 05

  Lisa with a Z. And Lisa Lotte, Lisa loads her now.

• 25:54Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:56Speaker 05

  Wow, so they're, and Chevalier's still knocking about in the background?

• 25:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, so the three of them?

• 26:02Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, there's three of us in this marriage.

• 26:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:05Speaker 05

  Yes, there is.

• 26:06Speaker 04

  And by the 1680s or 90s, they do sort of have a modus operandi. They do kind of live together.

• 26:12Speaker 05

  It works.

• 26:12Speaker 04

  Happily.

• 26:13Greg Jenner?

  They've sort of found a way of existing together at court.

• 26:16Speaker 04

  She's most interested in her letter writing and her dogs.

• 26:18Speaker 05

  Oh, fair enough.

• 26:19Greg Jenner?

  Tom, given all you know now about Philippe, how do you think he died? What do you think did him in the end?

• 26:26Speaker 05

  Ham sandwich?

• 26:30Speaker 04

  Like Mama Cass.

• 26:31Greg Jenner?

  Yes, exactly.

• 26:35Greg Jenner?

  Or fellow, tripped up on one of his antiques.

• 26:41Greg Jenner?

  No, it's quite sad. He had a big argument with Louis. Oh. And the stress kills him, Jonathan?

• 26:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's one of the stories. Some people say maybe not, but it seems, at least it contributed to it. Because in the 1690s, he ate a lot and he sat around a lot. And he gets redder and redder in the face. And there is a story that he goes to Versailles and argues with Louis about Chart not giving, being given a job. And then he's so angry and shouts at Louis, which is incredible if you think about it, shouting at Louis. Nobody does that.

• 27:11Greg Jenner?

  The most powerful man in Europe at this point. Yeah, Louis XIV is unbelievably powerful.

• 27:15Speaker 04

  Yeah. And then goes back to Saint Clou, his house, has a heart attack and dies. What we know about the death of Philippe is that the king can't be present, so he had left and gone back to Versailles. And Philippe dies at Saint Clou. And the first thing that his wife does, as she later tells us, she walks straight into his rooms and burns all of his private letters, which are mostly from his male favourites.

• 27:37Greg Jenner?

  Because that would have created further scandal for the children, presumably.

• 27:40Speaker 04

  Right. The other thing that happened right after Philippe died was that his son, who's the new Duke of Orleans, offered the Chevalier de Lorraine use of his apartments in the Palais Royal for as long as he wanted. And so he did live there happily, not being turfed out. But he then died as well a year later.

• 27:56Greg Jenner?

  The nuance window!

• 28:02Greg Jenner?

  Well, it's time now for the nuance window. This is where Tom and I sit quietly to plan our masquerade costumes. I'm going shepherdess, how about you?

• 28:10Greg Jenner?

  For two minutes while Jonathan holds court and tells us something we need to know about Philippe, Duke d'Orléans. So my stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Dr. Jonathan.

• 28:19Speaker 04

  Okay, thank you. What we've been talking about today, in a nutshell, really, every royal dynasty in history has been faced with a similar conundrum. If you have too many heirs and you cause infighting over the succession, but if you have too few heirs, then your dynasty could go extinct. So you have an heir and a spare, which is good practice. But you then need to give the spare something to do. Otherwise, he, and in France it's always a he, could go rogue and try to carve out a niche for himself, potentially challenging the power of the older brother, the king. Philippe Dorelles found himself in this position. If he did nothing, he was accused of being lazy and unworthy of his princely title. But if he was active in politics or the military, he was accused of being threatening.

• 29:01Speaker 04

  And so it was a sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. So Philippe chose a different path to some of his more aggressive predecessors. He was fiercely loyal to the king and focused his energies away from politics and more into patronage of the arts, building up his palaces, his gardens, and generally being an additional ornament to the French monarchy. He did his duty in marrying to advance France's diplomatic affairs and in producing extra heirs for the Bourbon dynasty. But he also was a source of potential scandal and disrepute for the French monarchy in his fairly open affairs with men. History has remembered this prince as a fop and a playboy, but we need to view him more in the context of his times, a loyal supporter of his brother Louis XIV, a patron

• 29:44Speaker 04

  and a collector, and a savvy businessman who laid the foundations for the powerful Orleans dynasty that endured for generations.

• 29:52Greg Jenner?

  Amazing, thank you so much. Tom, final thoughts on Philippe?

• 29:56Speaker 05

  I suppose what an inspiring person to teach you that even if life hasn't given you the most prominent position, you can actually make a heck of a lot of what you get up to. I mean, it helps, of course, if you are the second son of the most powerful dynasty in Europe at the time. But that aside, good to show you can still do something.

• 30:17Speaker 05

  My advice is buy antics.

• 30:19Greg Jenner?

  That's good advice, yeah.

• 30:20Speaker 04

  Or inherit your spinster cousin's vast fortune.

• 30:22Speaker 05

  It really helps if you've got a spinster cousin.

• 30:24Greg Jenner?

  Yes, absolutely.

• 30:25Speaker 05

  Who's the richest woman in Europe.

• 30:26Greg Jenner?

  Yes, make sure to be a nepo prince with a very connected family. Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Tom, for coming on. An absolute pleasure. Thank you, Dr Jonathan. Listener, if you want more fascinating French royals, check out our episodes on Catherine de Medici or Marie Antoinette. For more LGBTQ history, listen to our episodes on Benedetta Carlini, the saucy sexy nun, and of course, the Bloomsbury Group with Susie Ruffel, your friend, Tom. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to Your Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. And if you're outside the UK, you can listen at bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. And I'd just like to say, of course, a huge thank you to our guests. In history corner, for Manchester Metropolitan University, we have the superb Dr Jonathan Spangler. Thank you, Jonathan.

• 31:10Speaker 04

  Thank you very much. It's been fun.

• 31:12Greg Jenner?

  It's been fun. And in comedy corner, we have the terrific Tom Allen. Merci beaucoup, Tom.

• 31:16Speaker 05

  Adore you.

• 31:18Greg Jenner?

  Beautifully done. And to you lovely listener, join me next time as we give another spare from history the attention they deserve. But for now, I'm off to go and buy a shepherdess costume and a wig. Bye.

• 31:37Speaker 07

  Hello, I'm Alan Davis and on BBC Radio 4, we're off into alternate realities mapped out by science. This is Life Without, where I pull one thread from the magnificent fabric of life and watch what unravels.

• 31:53Speaker 06

  Scientists around the world would be crying themselves to sleep. A bunch of mammals would be worrying about where their favourite snack was.

• 32:00Speaker 07

  And we bring it down to earth. David Beckham, I can imagine him putting that on the socials, my bees, my girls have all disappeared. Sometimes we patch it up and crack on.

• 32:11Speaker 05

  We will survive. We will survive. Humans are ingenious. That is our hallmark, right? We should prize above everything else.

• 32:19Speaker 07

  But sometimes it's bigger than us. Join me to find out just how far the unraveling can go. Subscribe to Life Without on BBC Sounds.

• 32:34Speaker 06

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• 33:45Speaker 06

  How do you build a career you're proud of?

• 33:48Greg Jenner?

  It's easy to get caught up in the impact you hope to have or the legacy you want to leave behind. But how much of that is actually within your control? Something that I believe is that legacy is totally out of your control. Like legacy is something that other people determine. But what is in your control is is contribution and your actions around that. I really grew up, you know, into my twenties, maybe even thirties, thinking that, that like, if I didn't do something that meaningful and important, then like, I hadn't done something worthwhile. Find out how to build a career you're proud of in this episode of my podcast, Work Life, featuring actress and director Bryce Dallas Howard. And don't worry, we'll get into the nepo baby conversation. I'm Molly Graham and you can find Work Life, a podcast from TED, wherever you listen.