Jesse Rutherford from The Neighbourhood | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan sits down with Jesse Rutherford for a candid look at fame, creative identity, and the unexpected journey from child actor to frontman of his ground-shifting band, The Neighbourhood. Jesse reflects on being ‘discovered’ at just five years old, growing up in Hollywood, and the moment everything clicked—picking up drums to a Nirvana track. The conversation dives into how the industry has shifted—from the raw individuality of the ’90s to today’s algorithm-driven sound—touching on using Auto-Tune, perfection as a guiding aesthetic, and why imperfection in and of itself might be what audiences connect with most. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:09Speaker 01

  The band, which we get into that story, just kind of swept me off my feet.

• 1:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13Speaker 01

  And it turned into what it did. And even that, I kind of fought against up until like 30 minutes ago. You know, and like it becomes something that's almost like nostalgic. Everybody's like, you know, drooling for 2016 right now. And I'm like-

• 1:28Billy Corgan?

  That's so funny.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  I know. It's funny to me too.

• 1:30Billy Corgan?

  Don't worry about how it falls apart or falls together.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  I want to ask you about that too, if I can.

• 1:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  So when you first shaved your head.

• 1:39Billy Corgan?

  Are you still chronically online?

• 1:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, social media and autotune are my favorite drug.

• 1:46Billy Corgan?

  Jesse, welcome. Thank you for being on my show.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me, dude.

• 1:49Billy Corgan?

  So I love to get a snapshot because growing up in Chicago, we have an idealized concept of California life. Of course, we're different generations, but growing up in the 70s like I did, you know, the California dream, whether it was Disneyland or, you know, it seems so idyllic and obviously a lot of what the music business propagates and into entertainment business is the idea that California is the American lifestyle. So growing up here, give me the reality of your circumstance.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think the older I get, the more I I see how just idealistic it it really was. You know, once you like get out and you experience other places.

• 2:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, Middle America is very sobering.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, and every time I fly back, I'm like, I like this place.

• 2:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Uh, makes me appreciate it more.

• 2:44Billy Corgan?

  We felt the same way when we would fly into Los Angeles.

• 2:47Speaker 01

  See, that's what's always been wild to me, because I would have like, you know, kids in my neighborhood, their cousin would come visit from wherever. And they'd be like, we don't want to leave. And I'd be thinking to myself, wherever I go, I always want to leave and come back here. But now, but now I kind of get it. Um, yeah.

• 3:02Billy Corgan?

  But also give me, sorry, you also give me the like, the musical environment, the cultural environment, so I can get like a snapshot of that.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  For sure. I mean, okay, so I grew up in a like a smaller suburban area, about an hour north outside of LA. Forty five minutes north of LA called Newbury Park.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  And, you know, it's it's an upper middle class community, pretty, pretty safe, very safe. Lot of open space, a lot of parks.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  You know, skateboarding.

• 3:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Heavy music scene.

• 3:38Billy Corgan?

  What's the sort of mix racially there?

• 3:40Speaker 01

  Uh, white and Hispanic, I would say, mainly.

• 3:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:45Billy Corgan?

  Because I hear a lot of kind of soul and influence in your music, which most people maybe wouldn't pick up on, so.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Oh, it's not coming from there.

• 3:52Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I don't know.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:53Billy Corgan?

  I mean, we could get to that, but I'm just just trying to understand where the music and the person comes from.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I think my trajectory or my programming is is a bit interesting because I was a child actor. So when I was like five, turning six, I I was, I became an actor.

• 4:15Billy Corgan?

  Can you walk me through that process? Because that's mystifying to me.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:19Billy Corgan?

  And I've interviewed a lot of famous child actors.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:22Billy Corgan?

  So that's an interesting thing, because everybody has a different story. Was it like a stage mom thing? Or was it something you were interested in?

• 4:29Speaker 01

  No, I I was, I was like discovered. I went to go see a movie at the mall.

• 4:35Billy Corgan?

  No one was discovering us, see, in Chicago. That's, see, that's part of the.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, they were looking, they were preying on us out where I was, you know.

• 4:41Billy Corgan?

  All right, yeah.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  This close to the microwave of Los Angeles.

• 4:44Billy Corgan?

  So you're walking through the mall and somebody's like.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  No, I was seeing a movie and I was, I was, yeah, about five or six years old. And there's a girl sitting next to me, like a, you know, teenage-ish girl. And I was just like being a little, and just like, you know, talking and just giving her the play by play of the movie. Just whatever.

• 5:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  And he had game back then. I mean, I wasn't even, I was just, you know, if you say so, man, I'll take it. But, um, no, we, uh, we walked out of the movie theater and she went over to her parents and was like, you know, I think this kid could, could be an actor. Anyway, they come over to my, I was with my dad actually at the time. And, um, pretty much were like, hey, you know, Sandy, our daughter says that Jesse's a pretty entertaining kid. And like, I think he has the look, like we're, we're managers and we manage our kids. And if you're interested, like, you know, here's our number.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  And so I took it back home to my mom and she was always very like, cause in that community, like I said, people like will be at the mall scouting kids and whatever. And like, then the bit is they'll get you to try to pay for something. And then that's when.

• 5:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, there's a whole cottage industry where they kind of scam parents into the dream. And of course, if it happens, then they're, they got a piece of the dream. And if it doesn't happen, well, they just make money off, right?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 6:06Billy Corgan?

  That's a known.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Or you just like, yeah, you waste a bunch of money on like headshots and, you know, whatever else to, to try to go to auditions and stuff. But my mom gave him a call and we met up with them and they were, they were like, no, no, we'll, we'll pay for all that. We'll get you guys started. Um, and then I went on my first audition and I booked it. So it was kind of like, all right, this, this might be a thing. And then it turned into a thing.

• 6:28Billy Corgan?

  But at five years old.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:30Billy Corgan?

  That's a pretty young age to kind of walk into the, into the thing. Were you conscious of the pressure or?

• 6:37Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I was a little kid doing what I was already doing, but just like in front of a camera.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  You know, entertaining adults. I feel like I was always able to kind of like chat with adults and stuff, which I think when you're a little kid and you could communicate on that level is always kind of like, well, look at this guy. You know what I mean?

• 6:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So what's your like acting highlight? Is there, is there one?

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Probably a movie I did with Angelina Jolie and Edward Burns called Life or Something Like It.

• 7:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:04Billy Corgan?

  And is it true you were on Star Trek?

• 7:06Speaker 01

  I was.

• 7:07Billy Corgan?

  We actually share a Star Trek connection.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Were you on it?

• 7:11Billy Corgan?

  No, I was not. I was never on Star Trek, but somebody was a Star Trek fan. It was Next Generation times, Captain Picard times.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I was on.

• 7:18Billy Corgan?

  Oh, really?

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Oh, I think. No, no, Enterprise.

• 7:20Billy Corgan?

  Enterprise. So, uh, uh, somebody was a fan of, of the band and I, and, and the, the second to last Star Trek episode ever, it's called Planet Corgan.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 7:34Billy Corgan?

  And, uh, so I, I was a guy I know who was a huge Star Trek fan, like, uh, you know, he's like known as a Star Trek fan in the world. And I told him, I was bragging like, you know, they named this episode and the planet after me. And I was, and he goes, oh, that's probably considered the worst Star Trek episode of all time, but we do share this.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  You're like, I still got one though.

• 7:52Billy Corgan?

  It's like, come on. Um, so

• 7:57Billy Corgan?

  does being in the entertainment business, you know, the, the, let's call it the wide version of it, is, does it, does it light anything in you? Or because I, I, I once interviewed Mickey Dolan's from The Monkees.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:08Billy Corgan?

  And before he was in The Monkees, he was a child actor and he was actually on a big series, I think called Circus Boy. And so when he even started with The Monkees, a lot of people are like, oh, it's the guy from Circus Boy. In his mind, acting was something that he did because it helped the family finances. He had real, no particular interest in acting. So I'm asking you a similar sort of thing. Was it something like you thought, oh, this is cool? Or how's the family feel about it? It's, it's interesting to me that you kind of wandered into this public life before you even really knew what you were doing.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. Um,

• 8:42Speaker 01

  yeah, at a point it turned into that, but my mom was never like stereotypical stage mom.

• 8:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  It was more so, like, and I don't blame her for this. It was just so cool that like I got to do what I was doing. Nobody in my family had done anything like that. You know, I'm, my mom is a, a wonderful lady and I think she was just, first of all, we got to spend a lot of time with each other because she was taken to me to like, you know, several auditions every day. So she picked me up from school and we'd drive to LA and be out there all day and. You know, get fast food on the way back and sleep in the car and all that, wake up the next day and do it again. So I think we, which eventually that got to be to the part where I was like, damn, like, I want to like go hang out with my friends.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Maybe at some, but sometimes after school or, I mean, of course I had weekends and stuff. I wasn't like, not trying to frame it like I was like this deprived, you know, industry child.

• 9:38Billy Corgan?

  I get it.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  If anything, I kind of got to really walk a, I've had a really interesting path where I've kind of like been able to see a lot. But I've dodged certain experiences or not even dodged, they just haven't, they, my, my cards didn't fall that way, you know? And um, I think I'm really grateful for that at this point.

• 9:57Billy Corgan?

  But why, what, explain the gratitude, because I'm, it's curious to me.

• 10:04Billy Corgan?

  Cause your life could have taken this other route or?

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, because once I, I'm kind of jumping around here, but once I found music, once I discovered like drums and music and the local music scene especially, I was like, oh, I know what I'm going to do now. And if it weren't for the programming that I had from being a child actor, I don't know if I would have uh, believed it as much as I,

• 10:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  I did.

• 10:28Billy Corgan?

  And maybe getting confirmation at some point gives you some confidence or something.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, it's a, it's, it's kind of spiritual.

• 10:37Billy Corgan?

  I get it.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  No, I get it. Twisted way.

• 10:39Billy Corgan?

  I get it.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  But I, I, yeah, I do feel like in some ways there's like a, you've been selectedness, which I don't mean to sound like holier than that.

• 10:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I've, I've used the word, I've used the word, this is a bit of a Catholic word, but I've used the word anointed and some people, sometimes people really get almost offended by it.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 10:56Billy Corgan?

  But you know, uh, and I'm not putting this on you, so you give me your version, but uh,

• 11:03Billy Corgan?

  there's something about you that separates you. Like when I was a kid, I, people would say you're too weird or you're too this. So music for me was like, it put all the pieces together where my weirdness was a good thing. My, my different types of thinking was a good thing, but I also always stood out as a personality.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:19Billy Corgan?

  It, it sort of seemed to synergize the good and the bad or something, right? And of course, years later, when you're successful, it seems kind of obvious. You can kind of make up whatever origin story that you want, but. What I think people really don't understand, it's not like I, it's not like I was anointed to like, play hockey for the, you know, the US Olympic team. You know, I was chosen for something that I was really good at. But I also had the passion for it. So you see what I'm saying?

• 11:43Speaker 01

  And quite unique too, especially like, if we're gonna get to the sound of, I think either of our,

• 11:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, right.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  music of our bands, like, it's, it's not, it's a little bit left of center. It's, it's pretty unique. Do you know what I'm saying? Do you feel that way about, about your band?

• 11:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah. And, and I feel the same way listening to your music. So, so going back to this idea of, of being chosen or anointed, people kind of, they don't understand the real context. It's not like just because somebody taps you on the shoulder. Like you were tapped on the shoulder at five years old. Somebody saw something in you. Let's call it a spark. Right? Something simple. Okay. Well, they weren't wrong. You know what I mean? Well, there's a lot of other people get tapped on the shoulder and they blow it, or they don't have the top, or people misread the spark that they have. Maybe they would have been better as a stand-up comedian than a child actor.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 12:33Billy Corgan?

  Not everybody's path lines up. So sometimes it's easy to sort of tell the story that happened, as opposed to the one that didn't happen. But if it happens to you, um, I once had a therapist say, you know, the problem with being delusional is when your delusion is proven correct, no one's ever gonna tell you that your delusion.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  What could you tell me? Right?

• 12:51Billy Corgan?

  That's what I'm saying. Yeah. So it's not arrogance. It's kind of a weird thing because if you are sort of thrust into something that you believe in and you do have the conviction of it, uh, it, it's not like it's a, it just magically happens. You don't just roll out of bed and suddenly become the guy that everybody's listening to and you're on TV or something.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  No, and a lot of other things support the idea.

• 13:10Billy Corgan?

  That's kind of what I'm trying to say.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Like, i.e. my mom, who like, really just like, loves me and like, supports me and always and has supported me.

• 13:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  You know, and, and, and any endeavor that, yeah.

• 13:24Billy Corgan?

  So let's jump into the music pool. So.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 13:27Billy Corgan?

  You know, these stories get boring for both of us. So you, you could, you tell it however you want, but I, I'm more interested, I guess, in the, in the idea of like, when does that flips, flip switch?

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Switch flip.

• 13:38Billy Corgan?

  Flip, thank you. Thank you. Oh, sorry. When does the switch flip that you're like, ah, okay, this is what I'm gonna do. Like, give me that moment.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Uh, sixth grade, there was a guitar class in middle school that I went to. A couple of my buddies went to it, so I went with them. And the teacher, uh, this amazing woman named, uh, Miss Laura, was like, dude, you're not a guitar player, you're a drummer. And I was like, alright. And then she had a drum kit at her house, which was like near the school. So, you know, I went, I went there to, to play. And I'm pretty sure she put on, I can't remember which song it was, but it was a Nirvana song. And within a couple of minutes, I was, I was playing, I mean, it was just like,

• 14:31Speaker 01

  it was like the basic, you know, beat. But like, I did it and it clicked pretty quickly. And like, I was so lame. I still get like giddy thinking about that feeling because it was like, because up at that point, up to that point, I was like middle school. So like, you know, I went through my, which we could kind of talk about this a little bit, but like, I went through my, I'm gonna be a professional wrestler phase, like.

• 14:54Billy Corgan?

  We could talk about wrestling too.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? So I did that in like fourth, fifth grade when my sister first showed me.

• 15:00Billy Corgan?

  Who was your favorite wrestler?

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Jeff Hardy.

• 15:02Billy Corgan?

  A friend of mine. Oh, I work with Jeff. Do you know that?

• 15:06Speaker 01

  No, but he's such an inspiration.

• 15:08Billy Corgan?

  Jeff and I were in a company called TNA, which is still running.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 15:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I work with Jeff at TNA.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Wonderful. Uh, yeah, he's.

• 15:15Billy Corgan?

  I know the Hardy brothers very well.

• 15:17Speaker 01

  They're, they're just wonderful guys.

• 15:19Billy Corgan?

  Jeff is.

• 15:21Speaker 03

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• 15:50Billy Corgan?

  Jeff's a really interesting person because Jeff is basically, if you don't mind a digression.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Please, no, I love this.

• 15:56Billy Corgan?

  Jeff is basically an alternative musician in a wrestler's body. His whole mindset is an alt musician. And of course, he's had his own music, but his gift, of course, is with wrestling. I mean, he's a, he's a once in a generational wrestler.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  It's unbelievable.

• 16:11Billy Corgan?

  Unbelievable. I've seen Jeff do stuff. You go, he's like Plastic Man. Like, how do you, how do you not die, Jeff? You know, that's, that was a common quote. And, and I wasn't the only person impressed. The wrestlers would be like, holy.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Everybody. I think that's kind of the thing about this guy. And it doesn't, and he makes it look so effortless and also.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  It just, it just, it feels so natural. It goes so naturally for him. It's like there, there couldn't be any other.

• 16:33Billy Corgan?

  I mean, they debuted with WWE, I think, when they were 16. So talking about a spark, right? I mean, there they are at 16 in a WWF ring or whatever it was at the time. And Jeff really is that, almost like. Jeff reminds me of that alternative musician who's so talented and I'm sure you've met them where you're like, whoa dude, like you, you're almost like you're the art or something like. They're not trying to be alternative. They just kind of are that guy or girl. Like it's sort of in them that way. They don't have, even have a conscious overlay. They're just a different thinker.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  He can't help himself.

• 17:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  And the team, him and Matt reminds me also of a band because like, you know, there's the like annoying lead singer type like me. Maybe like you.

• 17:19Billy Corgan?

  And I'm raising my hand in recognition.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  The cool, quiet guitar player that's just like.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  How do you even do that? And just, you know what I mean? Like. Even though I would say almost they're, they're opposite in that way where I think Matt, like especially as years went on. Really stepped up to be like very vocal and like where his head is at.

• 17:38Billy Corgan?

  But Matt is, Matt is more the intellectual, loves the business, knows the business. Jeff is the guy you literally just can put a spotlight on and it just happens. He's, he's so gifted. It's, it's crazy. And I've watched it and participated in it. And, and one last thing on Jeff before we go back to you. When I got to know Jeff better. He said, I want you to see something and he showed me a video from I think 1994 of him like doing like crazy dirt bike jumps or skateboarding some some which it's him doing crazy, but like not wrestling and he had set in 1994, he had said it to my music. And he wanted to be see that he was an OG fan and that's so cool. And I was like, oh, this what a compliment.

• 18:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I really love Jeff and I love Matt too. So it's so cool. So back.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  I would love to meet those guys.

• 18:29Billy Corgan?

  Well, if you ever want to get into wrestling, I own a wrestling company, but we'll talk about that some other time.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  I need to bulk up a little bit, but I found out about it.

• 18:35Billy Corgan?

  Well, we'll get you on, we'll turn you into a manager, see.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Oh, that's good.

• 18:40Billy Corgan?

  You as a manager, you'd be pretty good.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Oh, that'd be good. Yeah, I could do. I could get my my bish off on.

• 18:45Billy Corgan?

  You just, you just got to, if you want to be a heel, you got to learn to take bumps though. Cause nobody wants to, nobody wants to heal manager that can't take a bump, you see.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  I want to learn how to take a bump regardless.

• 18:54Billy Corgan?

  You should.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  In life, I think it'd be good for me to learn how to take a bump.

• 18:57Billy Corgan?

  It's very humbling. I will say that. I mean.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  You've done it?

• 19:01Billy Corgan?

  I've taken bumps in the ring. I got concussed in the ring and I had known enough to not want to be in the ring.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Ah, what a bummer.

• 19:09Billy Corgan?

  It's pretty dangerous in there.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  No, but I'm just saying like, because I know you were probably so stoked about it and then that happened and you were like,

• 19:15Billy Corgan?

  I got, I got, I got concussed at the Hammerstein Ballroom for ECW in 2000 in front of 2,400 people.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Worth it?

• 19:25Billy Corgan?

  Well, last thing on wrestling, because we could talk about wrestling for now or easy.

• 19:32Billy Corgan?

  Every time a celebrity, in this case me, shows up in a wrestling ring, usually it's it's some BS thing happens, you know? They say something mean to the crowd and somebody yells, or if they get bumped, it's it's usually pretty light. It's it's usually not violent. So the guy who was hitting me in the segment, whose name is, he was sign guy Dudley and Louie Dangerously in ECW. Lou, I told Lou, who was my friend, I said, you gotta really clock me because I don't want it to be one of these celebrity things like, ah, you know, they took it easy on him. I said, I really want you to hit me.

• 20:12Billy Corgan?

  So he had one of those old brick cell phones. That was the Paul Heyman's old gimmick from the eighties. So Lou was doing a version of Heyman had a brick phone. And so I'm striking a pose. He comes up behind me and clocks me in the back of the head with the phone. And I was like, it was like boom, I saw the flash.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  So that was what concussed you?

• 20:33Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Oh, that's okay. See.

• 20:35Billy Corgan?

  And then after it happened, a great wrestler Perry Saturn.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:40Billy Corgan?

  Came up and said, you know, you guys did that wrong. But I didn't know there was a right way to do it. And the right way to do it is you're supposed to push the guy before you hit him. So 50% of his energy is moving forward. So when you hit him.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  It's already, yeah.

• 20:55Billy Corgan?

  You know, the, the, the blow is, the force of the blow is transferred through the moving body. So you're, you're, you'll, it'll look just as violent, but you take about 50% of the physical hit. But I took it standing there still. And I rigid because I knew it was coming. Yeah. So I went down like, ooh, that was it.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Catch.

• 21:12Billy Corgan?

  And about two hours later, I was in some five star eatery in, in Manhattan, like passing out my soup like.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  So in the moment, you didn't pass out, you were.

• 21:20Billy Corgan?

  No, but do you get, they call it the flash. You get like a, like almost like a, like a, like a light going off boom. And, and the wrestler beneath me, who was also a friend of mine, he said, I knew you were hurt because he said you paused before you fell. Cause you have that moment, you go like, oh, something's wrong. And then you're like, I'm supposed to fall down. And then you fall down.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:38Billy Corgan?

  It wasn't, it wasn't natural. Like, oh, I've been hit. Now I gotta fall down.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:41Billy Corgan?

  So, yeah.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Cool. So gnarly, dude.

• 21:43Billy Corgan?

  It was gnarly, but I did it.

• 21:47Billy Corgan?

  We wouldn't want to concuss you in the NWA. All right, back to you. So wrestling doesn't pan out. You don't become the next.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  It was just that point in my life where it's like.

• 21:54Billy Corgan?

  You could, you could have been, you could be, you could have been like a Seth Rollins. Think about that.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  That could work.

• 22:02Billy Corgan?

  With your, with your personality.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 22:04Billy Corgan?

  Your self assurance.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Honestly, he was probably right past when I stopped. Uh, watching.

• 22:11Billy Corgan?

  Do you know Seth's work?

• 22:13Speaker 01

  I'm trying to pick out, I'm like.

• 22:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  I know if I saw his face, I'd be like, oh.

• 22:17Billy Corgan?

  You would definitely recognize Seth. Yeah. But I'm saying in terms of, so let's say for the era that you grew up watching.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:22Billy Corgan?

  Trying to think.

• 22:25Billy Corgan?

  Who'd be a compo. I don't know. Maybe X-Pac?

• 22:29Speaker 01

  All right. Bronco Buster.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  But, uh.

• 22:32Billy Corgan?

  Also a friend, great guy. You know, he lives out here somewhere.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  What's his name? Sean?

• 22:36Billy Corgan?

  Sean Waltman. Yeah.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:37Billy Corgan?

  Great. Amazing guy.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  Badass wrestler.

• 22:41Billy Corgan?

  One of the best ever.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's incredible. But yeah, I was going through these phases. It was wrestling, it was, you know, basketball. And then, once I played that drumbeat.

• 22:53Billy Corgan?

  That was it. So it's Dave Grohl's fault?

• 22:56Speaker 01

  Pretty much.

• 22:57Billy Corgan?

  Have you told Dave Grohl this story?

• 22:59Speaker 01

  No.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  No, I'll do that next.

• 23:04Billy Corgan?

  I was like, when I meet certain people, I like to say, you know, it's your fault. You know what I mean? Like, I meet my heroes, and I'm like, you know, it's your fault to them.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, he's definitely one of them.

• 23:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, amazing drummer.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:15Billy Corgan?

  I actually saw Nirvana with the original drummer, who was, who was good, but not great. But when Grohl was in the band, then it was just like.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  So I imagine seeing the first drummer and then seeing him, you're like.

• 23:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I saw them on the Bleach tour, probably play in front of like 100 people. And then I saw them, you know, when they were starting to really peak. And we played with them once even.

• 23:37Billy Corgan?

  Boston.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Back, you mean, once in early days, but then.

• 23:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I think we, we opened, it was, it was a bill in Boston. It was a band, great band called Bol, La Volta, who was a Boston band. Then us, then Nirvana. And that, even that gig wasn't even sold. That was like maybe 800 people in a thousand seat hall. But I saw Nirvana play probably, you know, eight, 10 times through the years. And

• 24:00Billy Corgan?

  I mean, I mean, for a, for a three-piece band to have that ferocity, at least when I saw them, they were three-piece, you know? But I saw them like, I saw them at the sort of the zenith of the smells like teen spirit kind of moment. That was interesting.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  I mean, you guys were, did you come out before them or after them? Just before?

• 24:20Billy Corgan?

  Bleach was out, I think, 89, 90, and our first record was 91.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Oh, okay, cool.

• 24:26Billy Corgan?

  And then Butch, as soon as he finished our first album, went and did Nevermind. So that's where it gets kind of blurry in there because.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Did they make things click for you in certain ways?

• 24:38Billy Corgan?

  No.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  You were already on your path. It was already.

• 24:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I mean, I definitely, I mean, I have no compunction about saying Kurt was a genius, you know? He was so gifted. He was like a Jeff Hardy. You would look and say, how, how does this one guy just know how to do all this? So naturally. And, and also, it seemed effortless. Where, I mean, the rest of us felt like we were trying really hard. Kurt made it seem like he literally just. Was that guy, you know? Of course, it's not that simple, but

• 25:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:09Billy Corgan?

  Incredibly talented person. And you knew he was talented and certainly the buzz around them was intoxicating. Because you felt this kind of like growing kind of It just got louder and louder and louder. And then when it crested MTV and all that, it was like, like a bomb going off. Boom, it was just suddenly the energy was everywhere.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:29Billy Corgan?

  So we all benefited from it, but musically, we were completely different animals.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 25:34Billy Corgan?

  Had different points of view.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Which also probably felt good. Cause I know like when I get to comparing myself, which is natural. I also listen. And I look and I'm like, why am I, why do I even need to? There's no point in doing that. Like I have such my own little thing. Our band has such our own little thing.

• 25:53Billy Corgan?

  You do, yeah.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Then what, what's the, I just think

• 25:55Billy Corgan?

  Greatest compliment I could play, pay you, and I don't mean it to be self-serving is you wouldn't be sitting here if I didn't think you were distinctive. I'm not interested.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Magnificent other, what do you want from me?

• 26:03Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. So that's the whole point is, is, is to point out what, what, what makes artists different and not common and, and just like the rest of the game.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 26:15Billy Corgan?

  So yeah, so. I, I think we can get into some of the politic if you want now or later, but. One thing that was distinctive in the Gen X generation is you weren't going to succeed if you weren't different. There was no, there was no incentive to be like Nirvana or Pearl Jam or Alice in Chains. In fact, if you did try to do that, and many bands did, and sometimes we, we would even play with those bands. The audience would just be like, no way. Like it'd be like, I want one of those and one of those. So the, so the Gen X politic was you had to distinguish yourself, almost you had to create your own world and your own ecosystem, which. So that was very shocking to the Gen X crowd, at least it was to me. When that seemed to go away in the 2000s and it became more about people almost.

• 27:01Billy Corgan?

  Just sound the same, same chord changes, same production. That was wild to us from the alt side because it was like, why would you want to? Sound like each other.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Do you think that's a generation? I mean,

• 27:12Billy Corgan?

  I do.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  But no, but like

• 27:14Billy Corgan?

  Finish your question.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Well, I, I meant to say, I maybe said the wrong word. Do you meant, do you think that's? Just a part of getting older also is that you you you look at things that are newer. And because you have more knowledge, you're able to see all the ways that they're more similar. But when you're younger, okay, for example, when I was a kid, the Beatles, the Stones, the Beach Boys, Zeppelin, and I know these are kind of they go into different eras. But a lot of the music that was recorded of a certain era all sounded the same to me. I could not tell you the difference.

• 27:48Billy Corgan?

  That's interesting.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  The quality of it, the sonic, actual, the way it was captured.

• 27:52Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Just sounded the same to me for the longest time. I could not, I didn't know the Beatles had multiple singers for so long. Like, these guys all sound the same. And then time goes on and you get to like, notice the details more and appreciate it. For me, at least, appreciate them more. And because I think it's easy to say that about a lot of genres of music, you know? And I think it's just part of like, growing up too. And you could see things that, at least that's how I've, I've found it with myself. Because if I dig in deeper.

• 28:18Billy Corgan?

  I think that, I think that. I think the dangerous thing, if you're in your, I'm in my 50s. I think the dangerous thing is to look at another generation and sort of lump it all together. And you're, you sound like the old guy on his lawn saying, get off my lawn. You know what I mean? Like, you kids don't understand, or we had it better. So I think you need to be careful there. I do know, I do, it's a, let's call it a sense memory. I do know that when I was in my generational time, in my 20s, the distinctions between artists were glaring to me, but it's because I was in it every day. I was listening to these artists. So maybe the things that seem common to me, or, or not as diverse for, let's call it your generation's music,

• 29:01Billy Corgan?

  maybe I'm not looking at it the same way I would look at it from the inside out. And that's why I'm saying you have to be careful. But I do think there is enough evidence, I'm not trying to whinge on my argument, but I do think there's enough evidence to suggest that something happened in the 2000s. It certainly had a lot to do with the internet. I don't, you can tell me because you lived it and I just watched it. But it seemed that, that even if you devoid yourself of, of the, of the argument I'm making, let's call it top line pop, which I would not put you in that category because you're on to something different. But I mean, the homogeneity there, particularly amongst female singers, top female stars became patently obvious.

• 29:45Billy Corgan?

  Same producers, same production, same top lines, same people writing the top lines.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:51Billy Corgan?

  That seems to be very tied, whether it's a generational politic or it's just your generation just happened to line up with the internet.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:58Billy Corgan?

  Putting in external pressure.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  I feel that. Yeah.

• 30:00Billy Corgan?

  So from your perspective, because my perspective is really not that important, what do you think, am I misreading that? Or, or if there's some strength to the argument, what, what put those forces in line to take music and, and, and seem to narrow it? Maybe is the nicest way to put it.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm just going off top right here, but I almost feel like it, it weaves through certain generations, like a production style hit. Like to me also, like, like the eighties have kind of been a harder thing for me to get into because so much of it just sonically sounds the same. It's like, you know, they're introducing more digital electronic things. It all just sounds like the same.

• 30:41Billy Corgan?

  You know what? You're making a fantastic, sorry, I didn't attribute. You're making a fantastic point because that's how it felt when the eighties was happening. It was suddenly like, everybody's got like big reverb gated drums and DX seven keyboards.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:53Billy Corgan?

  And all these bands, which I, I recently interviewed Kevin Cronin, the lead singer of REO Speedwagon, had massive hits. They were like a road touring blues rockish band. And they made this transference in the eighties to like keyboards and big melody, you know, ballads. And suddenly all these bands that were very distinctive suddenly congealed into this kind of production style. So I think you're making a great point there.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think, I think a lot of it has to do with production.

• 31:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  For me, like, and every. You know, five to 10 years, five to seven years, whatever, something gets added or changed. Or even like, look at the use of autotune now. It's become so regular that like, the coolest of the cool kids are making stuff with autotune now, unapologetically. Like, it, it just, it's just how it goes. You know what I mean? Eventually, it becomes something that's almost like nostalgic. Everybody's like, you know, drooling for 2016 right now. And, and I'm like-

• 31:48Billy Corgan?

  That's so funny to me.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  I know. It's funny to me, too. It's also kind of like, alright.

• 31:52Billy Corgan?

  You know, you know what's crazy about autotune, just as a side note?

• 31:55Speaker 01

  It's my favorite drug.

• 31:57Billy Corgan?

  We could talk about that, too, but I have two nieces and, and both sing really well. I'm still trying to convince one to go into music, but it freaked me out because when my one niece, Sophia, was about 14, I heard her singing and I was like, she was singing as if she had autotune on her voice.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 32:17Billy Corgan?

  She had learned to sing a note, not, it was like-

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, you learn to sing into it.

• 32:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 32:26Billy Corgan?

  So what's your perspective on autotune? I want to, I want to get you on the record on that.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  Um, I love it. I mean-

• 32:33Billy Corgan?

  Because I saw a live performance where you were using it, maybe it was obviously an effect. It was cranked. So it wasn't like you were trying to hide because you can sing. That's not the issue.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  I mean, I can, but also you're up against perfection and people recording you on their phones. And, you know, I know what I want to hear. Bottom line, I know what I would want to hear if I was at a show.

• 32:54Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  And I don't, and I am, I can be pretty pitchy. So I'm-

• 33:01Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 33:01Speaker 01

  I would, yeah, for sure.

• 33:02Billy Corgan?

  That surprises me.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  So I would much rather just, especially with the way it works now, like the technology's so good, dude. It's like, it's just freedom and then I don't have to think about it as much. Like, I'm, I, I really gotta, I gotta put it all, put it all out when I'm up there. So like, you know, anything that's going to be able to, you know, help me to just think about the words and the actual feeling that I'm feeling, rather than, here comes that, nope, better hit that, nope, better hit the, back down here. Like, I would rather, I would rather just feel that freedom. And also, it's like, you know, when you involve instruments that are tuned perfectly, especially not stringed instruments, if you're having any keyboards or stuff like that, or like, any, any track, which for the band stuff, don't really do that, but like, I've done solo stuff and whatnot and like-

• 33:49Speaker 01

  You're you're competing with literal pitch perfect stuff. So like

• 33:53Billy Corgan?

  I will back you up on that.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  I just want to like blend in with it and like be able to

• 33:56Billy Corgan?

  Because of the amount of tuning that goes on with music in this century as opposed to the last one.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:02Billy Corgan?

  The the standard for a singer is just exponentially higher because you're singing. You know, it used to be the tuning was kind of a as long as it's between here and here. And then you'd find a spot where you sounded good in here and here.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  I mean, old records aren't even in in in key, right? Like old stuff.

• 34:17Billy Corgan?

  Oh, no, it's

• 34:18Speaker 01

  You try to tune your guitar to you're like, oh, I guess this was all like

• 34:20Billy Corgan?

  Even now, because you can understand, because I grew up in an era before tuning, there was ways to cheat. Even Nirvana cheated.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 34:29Billy Corgan?

  That's some inside baseball. But but you know, let's let's call it was limited cheating.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Probably why they succeeded so much.

• 34:39Billy Corgan?

  No, but what I'm saying is is that, you know, because the standards of tuning and pitch correction have so heightened people's sense of of perfect tuning, we call use the word perfect your word. That when I go back and I hear stuff that I did 30 years ago, sometimes I'm like, wow, I can't believe how out of tune it is. But we were convinced that was in tune.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:00Billy Corgan?

  Because of the standard changing. So I'm with you on

• 35:02Speaker 01

  Our whole first EP and a lot of the first album, no tune. But it's also like I sang differently and like going on tour and playing shows all the time and just like developing as an adult, as a person in general, and your taste changes and you figure out what you know, I grew up also in like the heavy music scene where like just hucking it and just as loud as I could was like also, I couldn't hear myself because I'm playing in garages with you know, or like in these little venues with really loud music playing. So it was, you know, I I I thought I was nailing it, maybe more than I was. Yeah. And then like you just learn as tour happens.

• 35:41Billy Corgan?

  That's interesting.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  For me, if I'm in the studio, I could do anything. That's part of the the joy of being in a studio. I could do something 28 tries if I want. I could put any piece of technology on it. But when you're live, it's like you get one try. That's what's going on there. And

• 35:55Billy Corgan?

  See, I like the anxiety.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  Well, me too. I think I do it actually better.

• 35:59Billy Corgan?

  But I'm saying I like the anxiety of being imperfect.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:03Billy Corgan?

  I'm not comparing us in that way. I'm just curious because to me, that's that is a generational difference. Do you know what I'm saying? I like the anxiety of knowing that there is failure. Does that make sense?

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:14Billy Corgan?

  It's like staring at the it's like staring at an oncoming brick wall.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:17Billy Corgan?

  Every every line.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  It's just.

• 36:20Billy Corgan?

  Maybe I'm just adrenalized.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  No, it's just part of the game. I I I definitely feel that way, too.

• 36:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  And also, I will say, excuse me, there's something about um when I really when you really love an artist and you watch them blow it live. It almost makes me like them more. So I always think that to myself, too.

• 36:37Billy Corgan?

  The biggest cheers we've ever gotten are when we started a song and had to stop because we were so off.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  I mean, I get it. I love that, too, right? If I'm in an audience, I'm like, ooh, look at they're really doing it. Especially nowadays when so much is bull.

• 36:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  You need such a slight amount of really doing it that really, I think, brings an audience in.

• 36:57Billy Corgan?

  OK, I have an old man question for you, so please bear with me. Explain to me, and I'm this is a genuine question. It's not a joke. What is a mixtape? Because in 2011, you put out this it's a mixtape, and I know I've seen other people put out mixtapes and DJs and. But what is it? What is a mixtape? My generation, a mixtape was you play records for your friends, put on a tape and give it to them. But a mixtape became this other thing for your generation with like how to release music and how to associate with other artists. So give me your definition because I literally don't understand.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  It just, you know, it's like terms change as time goes on. I even think it's changed since we've put out our.

• 37:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, OK, so when you put out one in 2011, what's a mixtape to you?

• 37:36Speaker 01

  Um, well, I mean, I I've been pretty heavily influenced by like hip hop. And I feel like that era, especially the mid to, you know, through the through the aughts, uh, 2000s. Uh, mixtape like online blog.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Culture was was something that I was like.

• 38:01Billy Corgan?

  Was it way it just artists get together and kind of share their music?

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Well, it's free. First and foremost, it's free.

• 38:06Billy Corgan?

  Okay, good.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  So there's.

• 38:09Billy Corgan?

  Is it the way people are using kind of SoundCloud now and Bandcamp and stuff? Is that similar mentality?

• 38:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I think.

• 38:15Billy Corgan?

  I know to young people watching this, they're gonna think I'm so old, but I literally don't.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  No, but it all changes. I mean, I mean, because even now, it's it's different, like I was saying to what it was before. People will put out.

• 38:25Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so I don't feel so bad.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  No, I mean, people will put out.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Now, especially, I think it's just a way, this is the way I contextualize it. As an artist, to to to feel like, okay, I want to put out a bunch of music, but I don't want to call it an album. So we're just gonna do this. It's not an EP because it's more music than, you know, seven songs or whatever. It might even be more than what an album would have. It might be like 20 songs.

• 38:50Billy Corgan?

  But in the mixtape that you put out, there's other people singing on it.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's all features and stuff.

• 38:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Well, because again, it was the the the the point of it was to cross genre and like,

• 39:03Speaker 01

  you know, work with rappers. Like, that's what I wanted to do. Like, my, the band was actually a side thing as as

• 39:12Speaker 01

  to my solo life that was happening. And my manager, who's who's here today, you met Kirk, he found me on the internet on a blog of a rap mixtape that I made. And that's like that. So that was like.

• 39:23Billy Corgan?

  I get it.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  That's what I was going for. And then the band, which we get into that story, just kind of swept me off my feet.

• 39:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  And it turned into what it did. And even that, I kind of fought against up until like 30 minutes ago. You know what I mean? Like, for the longest time, I was kind of.

• 39:41Billy Corgan?

  Hit pause on this because because it does unwind because, you know, when I'm going to talk to someone like you, I have cursory knowledge of your life and your music, but then it's like, okay, I gotta really know what I'm talking about. At least pretend to. So see if this tracks for you. From an outside point of view, I was like, okay, this is interesting.

• 40:01Billy Corgan?

  Over here, you have the band, which is, you know, that's obvious, right? And, uh, and then the success is, is obvious, but then there's solo stuff that sort of predates and postdates and then the band takes a hiatus. So it's like the normal story that you make in your mind, which now you're telling me is that inaccurate is, oh, you know, the band starts, people single him out of the lineup. Somebody's in his ear. You can go solo.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:25Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean? The guy sets aside his band. I mean, I was under the same pressures. I still regret.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Did you ever do a solo record?

• 40:31Billy Corgan?

  I have. Yeah, I've done, uh, three and there's a fourth one that's unreleased.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Oh, sweet. Okay.

• 40:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Um.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Excuse me, I, I.

• 40:38Billy Corgan?

  No, no, it's totally fine. Yeah. Uh, it's, if there's anything I've learned and, and someday you'll maybe learn the same thing. It's like, assuming that people know what you do or what you've done is, is fool's gold.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Oh, I had an embarrassing moment the other day with somebody where I, I, they introduced themselves. Oh, no, no, they, they, they said, they introduced themselves and said, you know, I said, oh, I'm Jesse. And they go, I know. Yeah. I'm a fan. And I was like, oh my God, so cool. And what's your name? And like, once he said his name, I was like, dude, I, in my head, I'm like, I totally know who you are, but I just do this thing because I'm actually not used to people knowing who I am or, or thinking I'm someone else or something like that to where I put, I put up this weird wall that I'm, I'm trying to stop doing that too. And just accept the like, oh, cool. You know who I am. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like.

• 41:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Anyway, continue.

• 41:28Billy Corgan?

  Well, no, I mean, I, you know, just to make you laugh, you know, sometimes people say, are you who I think you are? And if I say yes, they'll say some name that's not me and, and just insert some bald guy's name.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:41Billy Corgan?

  I mean, Moby, Michael Stipe, you know, I mean, like other famous bald guys in history.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  Bald musicians. Yeah.

• 41:48Billy Corgan?

  Yes. Like, so somehow you're in.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  You're like Stone Cold Steve Austin? Yeah.

• 41:51Billy Corgan?

  Well, I'd take Stone Cold's money.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  I, I want to ask you about that too.

• 41:55Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  If I can.

• 41:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  So when you first shaved your head.

• 41:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  What, what year is it? And did you ever grow it back out?

• 42:03Billy Corgan?

  Uh, I did. I, the first time I shaved my head was about 94. I didn't tell anyone I was doing it. I did it sort of in.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Full bick, full baldy. Yeah.

• 42:12Billy Corgan?

  Just like this.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Beautiful.

• 42:14Billy Corgan?

  And then it did grow back and it was growing back for about a year. And then eventually I was like, I'm just gonna do it.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Such a commitment, man. God, if I could commit to one thing like that.

• 42:25Billy Corgan?

  It's a, it's, it's heavy, you know, like, uh, nobody wants to deal with, uh, let's call it, uh, whatever this is. But in my case, which was weird and totally unexpected, people seem more attracted to me, not just physically, but also character wise.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:42Billy Corgan?

  Something about this seemed to put things together, you know what I mean? So.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  I mean, it works so well on you. I, I think, really.

• 42:51Billy Corgan?

  I take, trust me, I take my hair back in a second. My, my children, I have a ten, seven and a baby and, and my children have this incredible hair, which is my old hair. And I always joke.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  You have curly hair, right?

• 43:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, beautiful, ringlit, like, no joke, women used to stop me on the street. And say, how do you get your hair like that? And I'd say, honestly, this is natural. And they would accuse me of lying.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:11Billy Corgan?

  Because my hair was so unbelievably kind of beautiful in its weird way. My mom had the same hair. So I don't take any credit for the hair and, uh, but I do, I do get wispy for it sometimes. All right, back to you.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 43:26Billy Corgan?

  So I love the idea that there's this twin thing of the band and, and, and you. So without going into everything, because a lot of that stuff's all on the record. And I like to try to talk about the stuff that's not on the record, but

• 43:41Billy Corgan?

  the band's success is surprising to you? I mean, it was right, uh, the, basically the, I don't know if it's the first single, but the one song goes kablooey right away, right? I mean, it's massive. So are you like, whoa, this is crazy. I thought it was just gonna cool thing and and but are you suddenly, maybe the question I'm asking is, are you suddenly like, this is great, but I still want to do this other thing? And the band isn't necessarily everything I want to do musically. Like, walk me through that tension.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was just kind of being a maximalist and doing as, as, as much.

• 44:11Billy Corgan?

  I love that word.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  As possible, you know, and just, uh, I think, I think I was under the impression, uh, for a long time, like, it was always a, oh, wait, wait till they see what I do next.

• 44:26Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Kind of mentality.

• 44:27Billy Corgan?

  I totally understand.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  You know, um.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  So.

• 44:33Billy Corgan?

  Did you feel hemmed in by sort of not, it's maybe not the right way because it sounds negative and it doesn't mean negative. It's like sometimes something will happen with a band and suddenly people want more of that. And you're like, but I want to still want to do all this other stuff too.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 44:46Billy Corgan?

  And then you're navigating a band's politic and your own thing and.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  I mean, being, uh, you know, considered rock or alternative at all at the beginning, I was like, no. We make pop music. It's not, this is, that's, that's what I do. That was always.

• 45:01Billy Corgan?

  Well, rock, rock and also have their own politics, which maybe you're not a fan of. I'm, I'm, I'm a huge detractor of.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Which I think helped me succeed in it because I was always like, I don't care.

• 45:11Billy Corgan?

  You didn't care.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  I don't care about.

• 45:13Billy Corgan?

  That is the right mentality. I came to that, but it took me a while.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I didn't, that's not what I was really interested in. Like, I didn't think anybody around me were like, I was not, I don't want to be a dick, but I just wasn't interested. I, I. It wasn't very cool or anything, especially in the era that I came up in. There was nothing that I was.

• 45:30Billy Corgan?

  So just to walk you back through some early nineties politics, because you might find it interesting. So there were bands that registered on the Richter scale of like, great, you're indie and you represent our values. And there were other alternative bands that didn't work within those values and they were mocked and castigated out of the cool kids club. So that is always there. And honestly, your approach is the best approach, which is just completely ignored then because they ultimately don't have any power.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  No, and I went back and forth with that because there's.

• 46:04Billy Corgan?

  Can you walk me through that a little bit?

• 46:04Speaker 01

  Well, because then there's the acceptance of, bro, you're a dude in a band. This is a band. Like you're, you're in a band. You just have to accept it and like, sorry, you're not, you're not going to force someone to believe some other thing. Like, look at yourself. Like, this is what's happening here. So then there, there, it came, I think, years of comparison and jealousy and stuff like that. And just seeing other, other bands and, and, and.

• 46:30Billy Corgan?

  What would, what, without naming names, because you don't have to, what, what for you is an idealized state of you in the band or you solo or both or, and what are those ideal, what do those idealized states sound like? Is that too weird a question?

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Sonically? Yeah, sure.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I would say where we're at right now, for sure.

• 46:50Billy Corgan?

  As somebody who's listening to your music, I think your band is in the perfect state right now.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Thank you. I think I could say thank you to that, right?

• 46:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's a compliment.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it feels that way. It feels like I finally get it and I finally want to be.

• 47:05Billy Corgan?

  It comes across that way musically.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 47:08Billy Corgan?

  Like it registers as like, oh, okay, right. It's all lined up. Whatever, you know, without knowing, I mean, I'm obviously asking you now, but

• 47:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:15Billy Corgan?

  Without knowing the inner politic, even your own inner journey, it feels like there's a sort of a relaxed, comfortable balance of forces.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I definitely feel that.

• 47:27Billy Corgan?

  You mind if we take a musical kind of left turn, right turn?

• 47:33Billy Corgan?

  I think what I find interesting about you, because I tend to break down, for lack of a better way to put it, I tend to break down people's game. Like, what is the game they're playing? Like a basketball game.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 47:43Billy Corgan?

  Like, oh, you're good rebounder, you know what I mean?

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:46Billy Corgan?

  Singer to singer, songwriter to songwriter, something like that. And the first thing that really struck me when I was doing deeper dive on your music is the amount of rhythm in your vocal. Which is very unusual for people that are generally framed up as an alternative guy.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 48:00Billy Corgan?

  There's a, and I can see the hip hop part of that. So the fact that you seem to have found like the right balance of the rhythmic approach musically, and then the band sort of sonic, that is really like at a beautiful spot right now. Do you feel that?

• 48:15Speaker 01

  That's such a cool evaluate or way to, way to, way to hear it. So, yeah, I definitely feel that.

• 48:21Billy Corgan?

  It doesn't feel like one thing is betraying the other, because sometimes there can be that where,

• 48:28Billy Corgan?

  and maybe it just took time to sort of like a, like a, like a soup. It's just taken time to find the exact right balance of those forces. Because when I listen to your solo stuff, it's way more, like you said, more in the pop.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:40Billy Corgan?

  R and B, I don't know, that's my generation's term.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  For sure. I would definitely say that. That's like my, part of my, my, my programming is like, growing up before I'm, I'm, I'm getting into hip hop and getting into, you know, like hardcore and like heavier stuff or whatever. It's, it's like Justin Timberlake and N'Sync was like, and like Brittany, like all the Max Martin stuff and all that. Like I was, that's what I loved. Like I just.

• 49:02Billy Corgan?

  Have you worked with those, like, top pop writers at any point?

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Some, yeah, yeah. I haven't worked with Max. But I've, I've, I've, I've made some cool songs with some, with some, some big players.

• 49:13Billy Corgan?

  Do you like that process?

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's fun. I, I, you know, I really do like it all.

• 49:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  But the band is where I shine. The band is like, I could, I, I, I just like have such a love for it now. And like a more, honestly, a love for myself, which has taken me a while to find. Cause I was just trying to search for that and trying to experiment to, to find that.

• 49:36Billy Corgan?

  So from your perspective, what is it about this moment where you feel that balance? Like I just gave you like my musical hot take, but what is your version of it? Like, what is it about this moment? Like, have you reached a level of peace? Have you said, this is the best movie? You know, sometimes I tend to think of like being in a band, it's like being in a movie. And an album is like, now we're on Spider-Man four.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:00Billy Corgan?

  You know, like what are you, what do you want people to believe in? Like for you, I know this is my languaging, but like, how do you view that? Why is it balancing out for you now?

• 50:09Speaker 01

  Um, well, taking time, taking time away. Cause we took like five years off.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  Which is kind of wild, cause we're still.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  All things considered, a, a, a young enough band.

• 50:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  To take five years off, you know?

• 50:30Billy Corgan?

  Which is, which is a lifetime in, in entertainment world.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  It is. And getting back into the swing of it has really shown me that. And I, and, and it's been amazing.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  But, um, yeah, I think the time away, uh, what is it? Distance makes the heart grow fonder, just has, has, has made me appreciate it more. And I'm not going to lie, like the, the, the success that we've seen in the time away. Seemingly when, you know, I'll speak for myself, when I decided to do nothing. And so much happened and I just come from a place where I'm such a trier and such a like, I, I, you know, hungry, like gonna do everything to make sure. And, and that got exhausting and wasn't paying off to the, to the, to the level that I thought it would pay off. Which is a whole other twisted thing.

• 51:23Billy Corgan?

  I get it.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Probably shouldn't expect anything like that, but because of my routing, I was always kind of like, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm supposed to be this, whatever. And, and when it didn't happen the way I thought it would happen, it was still happening. It was still totally happening. It just like amongst other things in my life, you know, I just needed to like stop it. And the time away, watching the songs flourish that, you know, were not singles, you know, that are several years old. Like we, maybe it's just a thing that happens now, but I like, it almost seems like now I'm okay with the, with the weight. Like that, how can anybody get to your, to your record right away?

• 52:08Speaker 01

  How can everybody get to your record right away? There's way too much stuff to get to. There's way too much old stuff for people to get back to. Like, i.e. me being a little kid, being like, oh, all this seventies music, sixties music sounds the same. And then I get older, I start listening, I'm like, God, no, this is really, you know, there's so much to get to, I just can't blame anybody. And we're lucky enough to have had the success that we've already had. Now we get to go on a sold out arena tour, which we've never done. So it just feels like it's new again. And, and it's like, the coolest feeling ever to feel like,

• 52:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  Cause you know, it gets old, like it just, or it just gets like anything. It just gets usual. And I needed to like, get away from it and to, to, to appreciate what my usual actually gets to be.

• 52:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  And how to set it, you know, to where this point forward, I could, I could sustain it more. I could sustain myself more and understand it more and love it and appreciate it for what it is. The old songs, the newer ones we're writing, you know?

• 53:06Billy Corgan?

  I get it, yeah.

• 53:09Billy Corgan?

  This is slightly different, but tangentially connected.

• 53:14Billy Corgan?

  What to you is the modern star? Because the calculus by which we used to in the music business to note stardom is so different now. In the old days, it was pretty simple. Were you on the magazine cover? Were you appearing on David Letterman's TV show or something of equivalent value? How many records did you sell? How many tickets did you sell? But as you know, and it's particular to this, your generation was the first generation to face this. You can be a huge internet band and you can't sell more than a thousand tickets in any major American city. And then you have these other artists, and there's many of them now, where they're arena bands. They actually don't have that many fans, but they're able to compress that fan base into, into success.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  So yeah, the data never lines up. And it's always, it's all out of balance. But this is maybe a boring way to, excuse me, way to answer this question. But it's almost like, like the technology of our telescope got improved.

• 54:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  And now we could see more stars in the sky. And just because it might not, you might not be able to see them just looking up with the, the naked eye. If you take out your telescope and now we all have these telescopes. So it's kind of unlimited stars, like depending on where you're looking and what lens you're looking through. Cause there's, there's a corner for everybody. There's a, there's a, you know, there's a sky for, for every star.

• 54:40Billy Corgan?

  Do you, do you find yourself looking for external definition of where you place in that firmament? Or do you look towards the past? Like, how do you calculate your own success? And I don't mean even material ways, because I think, again, there's so many different ways to calculate success in this, in this interesting time.

• 55:00Billy Corgan?

  I mean, what do you, what do you, what, what makes you, what gives you confidence or assurance? Or some sense of like, yeah, what I set out to do, I did.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  Well, when I think of, when I think of Jeff Hardy, when I think of Allen Iverson. But I mean, honestly, being on this show is, the name of this show alone is kind of a good example. It's like, this is who I wanted to be.

• 55:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  You know, I might've seen Justin Timberlake on the way and, and been like, that's, that's it. And there's a piece of me that, that has that, that, you know, it's part of my inspiration.

• 55:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  That like full, bright, unapologetic, but star, right? But I also like am who I am and I like that part of myself. I like my, I like my story. I like that.

• 55:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  You know, and we live in an era where if you're not screaming your story, then nobody hears it. But that's also why I'm grateful for like a moment like this. If you want to sit down with me and you want to, you want to ask me about it.

• 56:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  And that really means a lot to me. And, cause there is still that, that, that little kid that grew up in that generation that looks at that, that type of idealistic star.

• 56:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  And.

• 56:12Billy Corgan?

  Well, in the reverse, we've had to struggle with, because we grew up in a different metric. Like when I remember doing an interview once and the guy said something about, well, you stopped selling records. And I go, well, yeah, everybody did.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:27Billy Corgan?

  But the guy, the journalist was still saying, well, in 1995, you sold six million records. And I was like, but Beyonce doesn't even sell.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's how it worked, bro. Yeah.

• 56:39Billy Corgan?

  But it's, but they're still in this logic. So invariably, consciously, unconsciously, you sort of grew up in a different system of, it'd be like if you grew up, I was using your basketball analogy, it'd be like, well, it doesn't mean anything to score 25 points like AI used to do every night.

• 56:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:57Billy Corgan?

  Right? It'd be like, no, that doesn't matter anymore. We measure how effective you are when you're on the court and whether your team is plus or minus and da, da, da, da, da. So whether you score point, like, and you've seen in baseball now, the home run has become everything in baseball, or if you're not a baseball fan.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  Not necessarily.

• 57:15Billy Corgan?

  Okay. But if somebody grew up in a different time with baseball, the home run was, yeah, it was a home run, but it was like, it's become the paramount design of every major league hitter now is they hit a home run.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  Oh, it's like when the first dude did a backflip on a dirt bike. It's like, good luck competing without doing that. You just can't do it.

• 57:32Billy Corgan?

  Okay, that's what I'm saying.

• 57:33Speaker 01

  Steph has changed the game with three pointers. You know what I mean?

• 57:36Billy Corgan?

  Oh, absolutely.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  It's just things change that way. Or even another example, what you're doing right now, I think is so cool that you are, you've committed to doing this.

• 57:46Billy Corgan?

  I feel like I've been committed, but yeah.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. But, but, or like when, you know, you see like a comedian that maybe, you know, maybe their standup isn't their strongest suit, but their podcast is bomb. And their banter is just like, and that's, that's all just my stupid dickhead opinion. But you know what I'm saying? Like, I, I'm fascinated with that. And I think I've, I think I've been finding, I, I don't, I still don't feel like, you know, I still feel like I'm finding myself, or rather, you're finding me.

• 58:18Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  You know?

• 58:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, in the generation I grew up in, you wouldn't have done the podcast because people would automatically assume you have nothing to say musically anymore.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:27Billy Corgan?

  So you've had to like, become a TV host or something.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  Right. And now you're like, no, I think I would be good at this and I want to do it. And it only, there's nothing to feel any sort of shame about.

• 58:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I just think we're into a different generational construct in terms of like, not, it's not as simple as be who you are, but maybe lean into the things that you're good on. And don't worry about how it falls, falls apart or falls together. Like when you said you almost had to step away from your programming of like, I gotta keep going. I gotta keep going and, and things came together almost organically because you were able to step away. Similar logic, right? It's just like, don't get too in the, in the weeds about whether or not a podcast is good or bad for your other pursuits.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:10Billy Corgan?

  I took a lot of crap when I got into wrestling because people were like, why are you into wrestling? You're killing, I, I would literally see comments where people say, I can't listen to his music anymore now that he's into wrestling. And I would think like, what is me having this other life and this other thing that has almost nothing to do with music? How does that kill your buzz?

• 59:29Speaker 01

  I think it's hard for us as consumers when someone tries to change lanes, you know? I mean, I'm guilty of it too, like, like.

• 59:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, we all have it. There's, there's no shade on it. I mean, I do it too. I mean, I'd make stupid assumptions about people and later I have to kind of check my, my,

• 59:49Billy Corgan?

  I don't know, my assumption.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Well, I believe from watching your show that this is an exercise in, in you actively doing that. Because I know you're an opinionated guy and I feel like to take it on this way. And rather than to be like, this dork, you're like, hmm, what is it about this dork? And you're looking into it and I think it's really nice and really inclusive.

• 1:00:10Billy Corgan?

  Oh, thank you. Yeah. I, I, I'll tell you one thing that I don't think I've ever talked about, maybe I have, but it's short, but it's, it's a nineties thing. But when we first got successful and we got out of, let's call it the stupid Chicago politic. I made this really dumb assumption, which is once we were into like, let's call it the bigger politic, the New York, London, Tokyo politic, that everyone would be nicer. And it was the exact opposite. Everyone was meaner. So I never found that greater musical community until much later in life. Now that everybody's a little older and a little friendlier. So I can get together with my peers and we can laugh about how we used to try to cut each other's throats on the charts. So.

• 1:00:57Billy Corgan?

  My idealistic Piscean concept is that we're in the same, we're on the same team, even if we don't know each other. And it's incumbent upon us, particularly for, let's say, on the rock side of the equation, to work together to bring rock and organically heartfelt music back to the kids. However, that works because I think it makes the world a better place.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:20Billy Corgan?

  Pop is fine. I mean, I grew up with Michael Jackson and Prince and all that stuff. There's nothing wrong with pop. I love pop too. But when pop becomes the dominant sort of social force, like if you're not this and you don't check these boxes, somehow you're lesser than. Or if you're not selling out a stadium or something, that's a, I think that's a really weird message to send to a kid. It puts a really weird pressure on them as a musician. And so what ends up happening is you get this cleaving of,

• 1:01:48Billy Corgan?

  all musicians feel they have to be so integral and so authentic and so different. You know, they basically, there's like, every part of them has to somehow represent something different. Their hair color, everything.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:59Billy Corgan?

  And then the pop thing, it becomes so about perfection, almost like an impossible.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02:03Billy Corgan?

  Almost like AI level of perfection. So you, you basically don't have a musical middle class.

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:10Billy Corgan?

  But the musical middle class is where most people live.

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:13Billy Corgan?

  They have jobs, kids, lives, aging parents or whatever. They just have to figure it out. So when the two things become either so idiosyncratically navel gazing, to use an old term, straight out of The Melody Maker back in the day, to, you know, queen this and, you know, God that and all that. It's like, if you're just a kid growing up in a trailer somewhere, who do you lean into?

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And if, and if it's not, I just think accessibility is, is, is, things are more accessible now. That's why I said earlier, like there's a corner for everything. If you have the internet, you can find, you can find a spot.

• 1:02:53Billy Corgan?

  But I'm not arguing with them, just giving you a slightly different angle on that. Yes, but, but we are, we're all aware of the systems of reward. Does it make sense why I'm saying it? So at different times in your life, you, I, other people are rewarded like, good job. You, you, you, you got the right message, you know, and the business swoops in, you know what I mean? This is fine. It's capitalism. But for a lot of people, it sends the wrong message if the, if the things being reinforced are ultimately, they're so disparate from their lives that they don't, they can't relate.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  But don't you just think that that's, that's just the type of person? Like, I feel like that's always been there. Maybe it's louder than it was before.

• 1:03:34Billy Corgan?

  I'm not saying it wasn't. I'm saying is across the arc of, uh, let's call it an aspirational figure like an Aretha Franklin.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:03:41Billy Corgan?

  One of the greatest singers ever, grew up in the church, crossed over from gospel to pop, made some of the most important music ever, not even just soul music, just important music. Okay, that's an aspirational journey. Barbra Streisand, you know, a once in a generation singer goes on to be an actor and a director. That's a different aspirational story. But in between those types of poles of like talented people taking you on a particular journey, there's a lot of people just make really good music. They don't, they don't have a funny haircut. They don't need to have a sort of weird social media message. So that's what I mean about the musical middle class. And alternative music historically, up until recent times, had some general representation of it. It's like they used to say about the Ramones.

• 1:04:26Billy Corgan?

  Or the Velvet Underground, more people started bands than they sold records because they were so inspiring to like, oh, I can be that guy or that girl too.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  Well, that's why it's kind of cool to see the hardcore scene, kind of like hardcore music in general.

• 1:04:38Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  Having, having more of a moment, or heavy music in general, having, having more of a moment. You know what I mean? Right now.

• 1:04:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:45Billy Corgan?

  Or, you know, kids not wanting to use autotune or, you know, purposely having out of tune and out of time songs.

• 1:04:53Billy Corgan?

  Take me down this rabbit hole before we kind of wind it up here. Chip Chrome and the Monochromes. I found this.

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  My tones, yeah.

• 1:04:59Billy Corgan?

  Sorry, excuse me.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  No, you're good. You're good.

• 1:05:02Billy Corgan?

  See, I knew I was gonna mess up something. But, uh, explain this to me because as a casual observer, I was like, okay, this is an interesting curiosity. And I went and listened to the music and I thought, okay, this is, I'm not sure where to place this, but I kind of get the point. So walk me through that.

• 1:05:19Billy Corgan?

  Cause I'm, I'm obsessed with avatars. That's the, the word I use.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  Sweet, yeah.

• 1:05:22Billy Corgan?

  Working behind a character or a mask.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, okay, so Chip was, uh,

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  It was kind of a response and a reaction a little bit.

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  I was pretty depressed at that point.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  And yeah, we kind of, you know, that's what I was saying about things getting, uh, why I'm, first of all, why I'm so grateful that things have turned out the way that they have so far. And, and the time that we took away from the band has kind of lifted up so many songs and, and our music and our band in a way that is just like beyond me, you know, nothing to do with, we were off grid, fully off grid. So it's only the music that I could blame it on and brought in a whole new generation of people. It's just the coolest thing. But at that time, it felt really stagnant.

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  You know, we come out the gate with what now is one of the biggest songs ever, what has turned into that with Sweater Weather. So we come out the gate like that, have the whole first year doing all this stuff, you know, you know, you're getting recorded by everybody. You're playing late night, you're playing the festivals, you're doing all this stuff for the first

• 1:06:35Billy Corgan?

  Everybody's your friend.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  Oh, it's just like, what a rush, right? What a dream come true. And signed to the label, all and then, you know, oh, wait till they hear this next one. They hear it. They don't quite think the same. And then, okay, well, but okay, but we get, okay, we do the third record. Just things just felt like, not like they were failures, but like there wasn't upward motion. It, or it was very, very, very gradual, like very, very, very slight, which while I was experiencing it in the moment.

• 1:07:07Billy Corgan?

  And tell me if you felt this too. When that, when that happens, whatever, let's call it gradual, it feels like, like everything's going like, it doesn't feel like gradual growth. It almost feels like somebody's dimming the lights or something.

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 1:07:19Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  And you're like, hold on, you know what I mean? You're like, like, you, you

• 1:07:23Billy Corgan?

  Did you see people around, you start to lose, do you see people around, you start to lose confidence too?

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  Honestly, no, I think it was more me.

• 1:07:30Billy Corgan?

  Maybe you had better management than I did.

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, everybody was pretty, and the guys in my band especially were just like, you know, I think it was always enough and exciting for them. And I just was programmed the way that I was to be like, no, no, but this isn't it. Like, we're supposed to be at this.

• 1:07:46Billy Corgan?

  I get it.

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  It's ridiculous, but also that's just a product of being like a person on the internet, too. And so chronically online and, you know.

• 1:07:54Billy Corgan?

  Are you still chronically online?

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  I would say so.

• 1:07:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, social media and auto-tune are my favorite drugs. But, uh, okay, so basically, it was, it was, we're, we were about to finish our contract with Columbia. And we actually asked to be let go, and they didn't let us go.

• 1:08:15Billy Corgan?

  And some, some sign of value.

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, I knew we had enough value, but like, still, it was just kind of whatever.

• 1:08:22Billy Corgan?

  I get it.

• 1:08:22Speaker 01

  So I kind of was in the mindset of like,

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  I gotta switch it up, like, we gotta do, I got, I'm going crazy, like, we gotta do, we gotta do something else. Uh, this isn't, this isn't working, like, this isn't, the way it's been going isn't getting enough of a pop. Like, I'm not getting enough of a reaction here. So like, and I'm just a firm believer in like, you have to get people to look in order to get them to listen, especially in this day and age. And, you know, I was just being chronically online and seeing all the, the other artists and band guys that I was getting tagged in pictures next to that I just felt like I couldn't really relate to. And, you know, you get pigeonholed into a thing, and then you're just like, but I'm not that thing.

• 1:09:11Billy Corgan?

  What was the, what was the pigeonhole?

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Oh, just like, you know, like, all guys of this, of this era, you know, and then no, no shade. I mean, some, some great, some great artists, really, but just like, not how I really viewed myself. And I just wanted to do something different really bad. And then, of course, there's Bowie and Kiss and these references that I'm seeing.

• 1:09:31Billy Corgan?

  So I actually, my next question was about Bowie, so if you want to jump into that tangent.

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, naturally, I was gonna get there, but, uh, yeah, I kind of was just like, I had the idea for the character, like, I had the name. I didn't have the look, but I had like the name and this, I was kind of working on a project with some other friends that maybe was going to be that. And then I wrote this song.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  And we, we, we worked on it in the studio and finished it together called Middle of Somewhere. It was the first one that kicked off that era. It's the last song on the album.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  And it just, it was diff, it really was the first time I'd ever picked up a guitar and been like, I want to play the guitar on this song. And like onstage, I want to be a guy with a guitar, not like just frontman. It was like, it, and we were, and I was playing in standard tuning, all of our other stuff is in D standard. So it just felt like something a little bit different. And I was really proud of the song and the boys really loved it and we were all really proud of it. And it's felt like something we'd never done before. And I was just like, we were going to shoot a video for it. I had a friend coming over to shoot a video. We had rented a house in Coldwater Canyon. My buddy was coming the next day to shoot a video after we had finished the song. And uh,

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  or maybe it was, it was a couple of days later. So I went to Hollywood Boulevard the next day, got the spandex suit. Like, you know, went, get some, got my makeup, whatever it was, and just kind of like walked into the house the next day and just showed up. Chip just walked through the door and everybody was kind of like, oh, what? But like, we know each other so well that like, I don't think I could do anything to surprise them at this point. They were just like, yo, crazy, pretty tight. All right, cool. And uh, and, and

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  I think a lot of my thinking also is just like, if this is

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  like, if people hate this, or if this, if this, if this explodes the whole thing, then I don't care. I'm just, I, I was just kind of at that place where I was just like, I needed, I needed that. I needed a high, I needed something that, I needed to take that risk, especially with something that felt pretty solid. I mean, our, our, our situation was solid. It wasn't as exciting as I wanted it to be, as, as exciting as I wanted it to be, but it was, it was, you know, I wasn't appreciating it for how. Consistent it was, I guess, but I had to disrupt it and do something. And at first, it really didn't go over well with like the audience.

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  But then about a year of doing it and making some videos and taking it on tour, it really turned and you know, there's a, there's a demographic of our audience that, that are oftentimes seem to sometimes be people that I directly seem to relate to the most that, that have come up to me and friends of mine. Also, it felt like the first time that our peers, or it felt like maybe the first time we had peers, where other, you know, artists in our, you know, because when you have a big hit and you're making pretty poppy music, it's a pretty young audience and especially for us at first, and again, my goal was pop, but we didn't quite make it there. We were like, you know, and then we got stuck, in my opinion, in this alt thing because

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  we didn't get to go all the way, which pretty grateful that we didn't at this point. But so I was kind of just like, I just needed to do something. I needed, I, I, and yeah, it was like a kind of a cultural, social response, everything that was going on as well. I just felt like I didn't really, I wanted to, I think, I, I just wanted to, to, to play with identity a little bit more and with, and with, and with.

• 1:13:22Billy Corgan?

  Were you, were you conscious of Bowie is the obvious example. Were you conscious where people had played with identity before?

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, just to, to touch on Bowie for, for a moment.

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  He was someone that was always mentioned to me while I was growing up, like, because I've constantly changed, like, I've always changed my hair, my outfits. It's femme, it's masculine. I do this genre of music. I just do whatever. I just, I've always done that and I. I had, I had people telling me in the past like, oh, it's kind of like a Bowie vibe. And I never really knew his music because I probably grouped it in with all the other old that I didn't really care about. And, and then it was interviews that really got me in. And I watched probably his like Dick Cabot interviews.

• 1:14:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:14:15Billy Corgan?

  Coked out of his mind.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  Well, that one, I think there's a later one where he's maybe not as much, but through all the eras, I mean, like, you know, even like into the eighties and nineties and, you know.

• 1:14:25Billy Corgan?

  He was definitely a sage visionary. He could see what was coming before most people for sure.

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  And like, I think I relate to that. I, I don't, you know, I, uh, and once I tapped in and once I like listened to the man talk and, uh, he gave me kind of the same feeling that maybe someone like, like Jeff had given me at a point in time.

• 1:14:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  It's like, oh, okay. So I could like, you could be like that. You could be a man and you could, and you could be like that, you know, and this, this, this like kind of fluidity with.

• 1:15:00Billy Corgan?

  On every level.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:01Billy Corgan?

  Musically, sexually.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:04Billy Corgan?

  Uh, gender, yeah.

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  It just, it just, it just like hit me, you know, or when I heard, you know, like listen like Tupac interviews, like there's sometimes there's people that come along that are just like, wow, you are just like, you make, you make this life so much easier for me. And then, and then, and then, and then usually I get to the music. So it was kind of the man first with Bowie, the person first, and then, uh, getting into the music. And then of course Ziggy is just like.

• 1:15:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  It's just the coolest thing anybody's ever done. I mean.

• 1:15:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:36Billy Corgan?

  Uh, it's interesting you bring up Tupac because, you know, he was a theater kid. Um, Bowie was a mime and I think both of those things informed the way they saw how to present themselves in public. And maybe that your, your acting background sort of registers on maybe a different level than somebody hadn't done acting, right? Cause you know, acting and rock and roll is kind of a dirty word. You know what I mean? Because people want to believe the performance they're seeing is in that moment is an organic representation of the thing that's happening between artist and audience. The minute you explain to people that there is some form of acting going on, they get, especially an alternative, they get kind of like, whoa, what does that mean?

• 1:16:19Billy Corgan?

  Was, was the album that I liked, that wasn't really you? You know what I mean?

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:16:24Billy Corgan?

  It becomes, on some level, it's almost a betrayal of why they believe in you. But that's their relationship to you, not the artist's relationship to themselves.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  And I understand that, because again, I'm a, I'm a fan and a consumer of things too.

• 1:16:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  I know how it feels to feel like you've been duped or something.

• 1:16:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Was it, was it so obviously it's sort of a fun laugh lark? Hey, we're just gonna try something different that people didn't accuse you of being disingenuous? Or, or did you find that?

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  With chip?

• 1:16:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  Uh, wait, ask it one more time?

• 1:16:58Billy Corgan?

  Sometimes when you present a different mask in public, it's, people will do the math and, and start to accuse you of being inauthentic either in the present or in the past.

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  No, it wasn't even that. It, it never really felt quite that. It just kind of felt like, which is part of why I did it too.

• 1:17:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  I think there was like, you know, there's a certain,

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  there's a certain type, you know, type of fan or, or viewer that's like, why would you do this to yourself? Like, you look weird and scary and whatever else, like, like, I want your-

• 1:17:33Billy Corgan?

  Have you seen my goth phase?

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? It's just like, it's not always about that. And also, I didn't really feel, I felt like that was more my angle than like, looks maxing, for the most part. You know what I mean? Like-

• 1:17:46Billy Corgan?

  I don't know what looks maxing is. I hear the term, so you have to inform me what that means.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  Well, I'm just like, you know, I, I, I'm, I have eyes too. I see, I see what I look like. I see where my advantages are, but I could also see where there's other people where really, you gotta look at that face. You gotta look at that body, whatever it is. You know what I mean? Like, sometimes that's, and I just didn't feel like that was the main thing. And I kind of wanted to rid myself of that, of even thinking that too. I just wanted to go into a more- Artistic expression rather than like a sexy, you know, and sometimes I feel the other way. You know what I mean?

• 1:18:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  Sometimes you want to feel a bit sexier. But at that point, I was just kind of like, and also Chip was sexy. Chip, Chip, Chip made me. I've had some friends actually say to me before, like, actually, that was the most you thing. Like, that is, and, and I've, I've, I've referred to Chip as my silver lining. Because it kind of felt like that. It kind of felt like this guy was just so worn down. And rather than putting something on, Chip almost felt like that what was underneath. And, and you know what I mean? Like, the thing that was, it really did, like, in a lot of ways, save me. And I don't mean like, you know, like, uh, from like, uh, you know, dying and like, uh,

• 1:19:00Billy Corgan?

  I get it.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying? But just on like an artistic, creative level, like, I really needed that. And, um, yeah.

• 1:19:09Billy Corgan?

  Okay, last question. Is it too soon to assess or evaluate your generation's success and/or failures?

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  My whole generation?

• 1:19:21Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  Is it too soon?

• 1:19:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe, maybe.

• 1:19:34Billy Corgan?

  It's full transparency. I'm married to a millennial.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:19:37Billy Corgan?

  So I live it every day.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:19:40Billy Corgan?

  But it's good and bad, or good and not as good.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  What do you think, though?

• 1:19:44Billy Corgan?

  No, I think, I think, uh, your first record came out, what, 2012? Okay, so we're 14 years. I mean, that's about the right amount of time to like, say, okay, was that valuable, not valuable? You know what I mean? That's kind of when it started for me in my, so that seems about right. But that's why I'm asking if you think that's fair.

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  My head just goes to technology. And because we're still in the streaming era, unless something until, I don't know what it'll be, but, but. People also didn't know what it would be when CDs came. It was like,

• 1:20:17Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  Look at they're smaller than the last one and they can't get better than this. And then we went away from the physical, you know,

• 1:20:23Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  world at all. And we're getting more into the, you know, or less into the physical world, I guess. Or it's

• 1:20:31Billy Corgan?

  So is your, is your argument that time is less important now?

• 1:20:34Speaker 01

  No, I'm just saying like, like, you know, we got in like right at the beginning of the streaming era. And we're still in that.

• 1:20:43Billy Corgan?

  Well, I think what I've said to my wife is your generation is the first generation that only knew technology.

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:49Billy Corgan?

  The generations before had, you know, they, they, they existed through the transition into technology. But your generation was like technology from the, from the go.

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

• 1:21:00Billy Corgan?

  So in that way, you guys are kind of like astronauts. You're like the first test case. How is this going to work? How is this going to impact self-identity, gender, fashion, music? So I think that's why it's interesting to start evaluating it from the perspective of like, okay, if you're gonna, if you're gonna paint a kid red from the first day that they're born, what effect is that being painted red from the first day that we're going to have?

• 1:21:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:25Billy Corgan?

  If their first artistic output starts around here.

• 1:21:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:28Billy Corgan?

  You know, mid 2000s, I think is what generally people would call it. Okay, now we're far enough out to say, okay, you know, I mean, it's gonna be a, you're not, people are never going to start, stop evaluating your generation. I mean, I'm 30 years into Gen X and people are still talking about the good and the bad. And every year it changes. Some bands rise, some bands fall, some artists are held up as heroes that were not even close to heroes in the time. And other people who were huge in the time are completely forgotten. So it becomes this kind of football game, cultural football game of evaluation. So that's why I was asking is, do you think it's, it's appropriate to start now?

• 1:22:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I don't think it's inappropriate.

• 1:22:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Okay. So, so give me your, give me your hot take on your generation. You can take it any way you want.

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  Um, so, so the question is-

• 1:22:19Billy Corgan?

  That's too weird a question.

• 1:22:19Speaker 01

  To evaluate the success, what is it now, the, of my generation? All right, this is great.

• 1:22:26Billy Corgan?

  All right. Give me your, give me your hot take on your generation. Has your generation succeeded in its goal? Is it, is it been innovative? Has it been, has it been a failure? As, I'll give you a perfect example. When I was on sort of, let's call it the 14, 15 year mark of my generation, and I started being asked those questions, I said the Gen X was a failure.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people say that about their respective generation, because it kind of informs the one after that and, and you look at the damage.

• 1:22:54Billy Corgan?

  But I'm not trying to project on you and answer you.

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  I mean, I feel that for sure. I definitely think-

• 1:22:59Billy Corgan?

  So if, if so-

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  My generation's very responsible for the delusion that we're all stuck in now. And the, the, the stage-

• 1:23:08Billy Corgan?

  Are you including us, all of us, right?

• 1:23:10Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 1:23:10Billy Corgan?

  I'm saying it's not just the, if you-

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  The generations of the past, too.

• 1:23:14Billy Corgan?

  And, yeah, exactly. I mean, I, sometimes I feel trapped in sort of millennial stuff.

• 1:23:20Speaker 01

  Oh, I just feel, I don't even feel trapped in it, but I just, I do feel a bit responsible for this era of like, the truth is what you want it to be.

• 1:23:31Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  But I also do believe that. And I have a hard time, um, how do I say this? It's very numb. Feels very numbing.

• 1:23:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  It feels very, uh, like, like, I can't, I have trouble, I don't even know, I don't want to like even argue about anything or like have much of an opinion on anything because it doesn't really feel like it really matters, unfortunately. And I don't believe in answers. And I, I think, you know, it just-

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  It's kind of a wonderful thing, too, you know, like even, you know, looking at something like with TikTok. It's like, and I've said this so many times, so, um, yeah, but.

• 1:24:22Billy Corgan?

  It's okay. You can, you can repeat answers here.

• 1:24:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I haven't said it to you. So, but it just feels like the secret's out. We're all artists. And, and it, and it used to not be that way, even if it's not necessarily true, but there's a way to do it or to fake it. Or to, to, to get yourself out there and become, you know, an artist and a creator.

• 1:24:41Billy Corgan?

  We're aligned in that because the, the thing I do say in a positive frame of mind is that this technological shift has allowed more people to participate in the conversation than ever before.

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:24:52Billy Corgan?

  So however they're participating, I think that's a good thing overall. I think, as you pointed out before, the hard thing as an artist is some, it's hard to ascertain sometimes what value is. Because the old systems have eroded, the new systems don't really stick. They seem to change by the day. I mean, you know, remember there was that one year where influencers were being paid millions of dollars to hold up soda cans? And that's all gone, gone away because advertisers realized that influencers didn't have as much influence as, as they might have thought. So if I'm trying to make any point, it's, you know, it's looking at the, at the, at the good and the not as good. And the, and the good side of the equation, which, you know, you're astutely pointing out is that

• 1:25:35Billy Corgan?

  there are more people contributing to the artistic conversation than ever before. What's mystifying it to someone like me who grew up in a different generation is there's so much information and no one can seem to make up their mind. That it's like, the thing I'm supposed to care about today is not the thing I'm supposed to care about tomorrow.

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  Oh, and if I care about this thing, it inherently means that I don't care about this thing.

• 1:25:57Billy Corgan?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  And I, I.

• 1:25:59Billy Corgan?

  But I, but I think that.

• 1:25:59Speaker 01

  Which I don't think is true, but.

• 1:26:01Billy Corgan?

  But that's, that's, that's part of what we had to get past in the past, which is like one person, in order for one person to win, another person has to lose. I don't think we live in that economy anymore.

• 1:26:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:10Billy Corgan?

  But I definitely grew up in a time, let's call it, you know, a harsher, uh, time, uh, for many reasons.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  A bit more binary, even if you want to put it that way?

• 1:26:19Billy Corgan?

  That's a perfect way to put it. Good and bad, winners and losers.

• 1:26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:24Billy Corgan?

  And so like, for example, when I was pointing out to you about alternative culture in the early nineties. The reason certain artists were held up and, and sort of pushed to the top of rock mountain was that they would say, well, these are the, these are the artists that extol the values that we, the writer class want. And but in order to push them up, they had to push other people down.

• 1:26:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:46Billy Corgan?

  So you have this bullying culture in the journalistic class where one artist could do no wrong and the other artist could only do wrong. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:55Billy Corgan?

  So sometimes when I've talked about the bullying that went on in the 90s from the journalistic class towards the artists that they didn't agree with, I have, I'm, I'm obviously one of them. Sometimes I'll tell people to go back and read those articles and they cannot read, believe the language in it.

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's pretty harsh.

• 1:27:11Billy Corgan?

  Well, it's, it's, it's beyond harsh. It's, it's a need to assassinate one to extol the other. So if, if the equanimity of maybe more people participating and it gets more of an ebb and flow, if that sort of is less ultimately harsh, that's probably a good thing. But it's harder sometimes to delineate the ley lines of who's winning and who's losing because there's, there's really no referees anymore. Not that I even agreed with the referees, but at least there was this sort of clear, if you were on the losing side, you at least knew you were losing.

• 1:27:42Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah. Well, and I just think everything, it's, it's all so loud and the things that are really the loudest, like, you know, and we're all competing on the same field now. Like, you know, we're competing with politicians and models and, you know, if you're on, it's all the same thing. We're all the, the, the same, which in one way is like, no, but in other ways, like, yeah, but that's kind of the issue is that people still don't want to like, agree on, on that, which, you know, it's easy to understand that too. If something's alien to you, it's scary and it feels like.

• 1:28:16Billy Corgan?

  Okay, last thing then. Do people, do people still want stars? Right now, and we're taping this in 2026.

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:23Billy Corgan?

  Do people want stars?

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 1:28:25Billy Corgan?

  Why?

• 1:28:27Speaker 01

  Hope.

• 1:28:28Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  Distraction.

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  Same, same old reasons as I, as I always, I think.

• 1:28:34Billy Corgan?

  See, maybe it's one of those, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

• 1:28:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, history repeats itself. Geez Louise.

• 1:28:42Billy Corgan?

  Awesome.

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  Pleasure.

• 1:28:43Billy Corgan?

  Great talking to you.

• 1:28:43Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me, dude.