Gavin Rossdale | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan sits down with Bush frontman Gavin Rossdale about Rossdale’s transition from a quiet London childhood and Kings Road punk scene to forging Bush’s blues-free, down-tuned sound. They trace the Pixies’ and Steve Albini’s influence on the breakout album Sixteen Stone, the grunge-era label hurdles, and the craft of matching raw lyrics with arena-sized guitars. Rossdale also reflects on Bush’s upcoming album “I Beat Loneliness”, his cooking show “Dinner With Gavin Rossdale, juggling fatherhood, touring, and mental-health realities while keeping the creative fire alive. Watch The Magnificent Others on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:30Billy Corgan?

  My understanding is you kind of get a deal with Disney's Hollywood Records, and they just kind of stall you for a while. You kind of do that spin that they would do.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  Well, what happened is they, we delivered, they delivered the record that was 16 stone to them. And that's the story is according to the guy from our label, Rob Cahane, that they, the record, the company, they threw the CD and they said, not only are there no singles on this record, there's no album tracks, and threw the record at him.

• 1:00Billy Corgan?

  Everybody, of course, talks about Nirvana, and there's good reasons for that. But really, it was the Pixies that I think cracked our heads open. We thought, we can be cool and play rock.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:10Billy Corgan?

  It seemed to all kind of mash it together at the right moment.

• 1:13Speaker 02

  I was lost. It'd be fair to say that I, what I'd done exactly at that point is I had been in London and my second band had failed. And I was left looking what to do. And it's the first time in my life I was worried about it because before that I had like the brazen youth, like it will come right, it will come right. And that was just the most helpful sort of signpost in a bleak, on a bleak mountain.

• 1:44Billy Corgan?

  Thank you very much for being here.

• 1:46Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me. I'm so thrilled.

• 1:47Billy Corgan?

  We've known each other now about almost 30 years? Somewhere in there?

• 1:51Speaker 02

  Somewhere around there.

• 1:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 1:52Speaker 02

  And I was saying that I was so happy that so, not many things would not surprise me. I got that call to come here and I was like, that's so exciting. Yeah, absolutely.

• 2:02Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so let's start at the beginning. I usually like to start different places, but with you, I want to start at the beginning. So is it true you didn't speak till you were four years old?

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Yes, um, I think I had like bossy older sister. So she took care of a lot of that. And um, for whatever reason, there seemed to be no point. Maybe I hadn't thought of anything good to say.

• 2:23Billy Corgan?

  Well, it wasn't a developmental thing. It wasn't tongue tied.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  No, it just was a um, just a feral attribute, early feral signs of life.

• 2:35Billy Corgan?

  It's pretty early age to decide, you know what, I'm just not gonna talk.

• 2:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm just, you know, I have this thing anyway about making music that, you know, this because there's already too much music in the world, but not enough great music. It's like you just should make things when you can improve the silence. And I couldn't figure out how to improve that silence.

• 2:52Billy Corgan?

  That's an interesting concept.

• 2:54Speaker 02

  Didn't figure it out. And it was, you know, I was a sort of point what I needed. And I think my sister enjoyed the control over me. Um, so I learned to be controlled by women at an early age.

• 3:04Billy Corgan?

  We'll get to that.

• 3:07Billy Corgan?

  I didn't find a lot of information on what your parents were like.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, very interesting. It's sad in a way because when they met, my dad um, was was doing, driving rally cars, was doing rally, amateur, right, doing rally driving.

• 3:22Billy Corgan?

  Like F1 track type tracks or no, or road rally?

• 3:25Speaker 02

  Rally, like way down the thing, but he was in a little.

• 3:28Billy Corgan?

  This is where they go through the villages and you know, almost run people over.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then, and and and my mom was from Scotland, from a small town in Scotland.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Um, and and she'd be come to London to be a model and you know, swinging in sixties or whatever. And when they met, they both uh, uh, well, he stopped driving and she stopped modeling to sort of like help, you know, I know to have a have a marriage. I thought it was a real shame they should have like continued on.

• 3:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  So they were together till I was uh, twelve and then I grew up just with my dad.

• 3:59Billy Corgan?

  But what were their personalities like?

• 4:01Speaker 02

  Well, my dad is really, was really, um, he passed a couple, two, few years ago, three years ago, four years ago. It's so weird, everything is two years ago now. Covid destroyed all timings.

• 4:12Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 4:12Speaker 02

  My brain just goes, everything if I, if it's not now, it's two years ago.

• 4:15Billy Corgan?

  It's almost like pre Covid, post Covid brain. Do you feel that?

• 4:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, B C. It's literally, um, so he was a really gentle, really funny, sly, like sushi chef, like cut you up it with wit, but very demure, understated. And then my mom was really fun. She was like one of just a, she was the best at our dinner, like, you know, with a nice cold white wine and just like living the, living the life. She was sort of a, she lived like that. So it was an interesting balance um between the two. So I think I, I have mostly my dad's characteristics. I think a little bit more laid back.

• 5:00Speaker 02

  Um, like I'm not the kind of um artist that is in a room full of people just really wants to play everyone my new song. Some people want to do that, check it out and then everyone's sort of.

• 5:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  I, I'll do it, but it's, um, it's not a ni- my natural state.

• 5:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Um, why did your parents get divorced, you know?

• 5:18Speaker 02

  I think my mom wanted a, was looking for a, just a, that bigger life. And I think that he was a bit more not looking for that big life. And so I think there's a disconnect there. And um, so I felt that she was searching, which I thought was a really good lesson to learn at 12, you know? Um, that to, to understand why someone leaves because they're searching for something. And we reconnected when I was about twenty, mid twenties, you know? And I'd seen her every year, more or less, but it was, she had different husbands, boy, um, boyfriends and some of that. So it was a bit disconnected, which, you know, which is like really fertile ground for our world. It's really, really good.

• 6:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  Really good.

• 6:05Billy Corgan?

  But I mean, is it, you know, it sounds a little bit like the John Lennon story where his mom kind of goes out of his life. She's around, but he ends up living with an auntie.

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:15Billy Corgan?

  You know, so in this case, you're living with your father and I think an aunt.

• 6:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, my aunt for a while and then she, she, she um.

• 6:22Billy Corgan?

  But was that painful for you that your mom's kind of like?

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:25Billy Corgan?

  Around?

• 6:27Speaker 02

  Well, she wasn't around. She moved out of actually England for a couple of years.

• 6:29Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  And then she moved out of town, so she was really elusive. I don't know where she was.

• 6:34Billy Corgan?

  Was she just sort of living the gypsy life or?

• 6:36Speaker 02

  Well, no, she just had a two or three stepfathers, husbands that she would move with wherever they were. So.

• 6:44Billy Corgan?

  But did you feel abandoned by all that or?

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, of course, it was, I, when I, I, I think about it most now when I look at my kids that age. And I just think, you know, they, you know, if I go upstairs and no one's getting the orange juice out of the fridge. And they're like dumbfounded as how to put the, the glass of the orange juice together from the other side of the kitchen. Uh, all going on tour when I feel horrible when I go on tour and I just, it's easier now because a little bit older. But when they were really yatch younger, just that guilt, that hollow guilt. So no, I reflect on that a lot and I think that, wow, because there's no therapy then. And no one said to me ever, how you doing? You all right? I was a very mixed up kid. I lived in a, quite a rough neighborhood. And then went to a really intellectual school.

• 7:30Speaker 02

  So I had the kind of like the, the split life where no one trusted me, no one liked me for, you know,

• 7:35Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  They're all sort of caught in two worlds. And, um, so that creates inner worlds, you know, and those inner worlds, um, are the reason we're here.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  That's how we got here.

• 7:47Billy Corgan?

  So I knew a little bit about your history in, in late seventies, eighties. Music scene, you know, that you were around seeing some of these great artists that are now considered legendary and influential. But at the time they were just kind of punk rock or, I don't know who you were particularly influenced by. I saw a couple of things, but I know that's probably a little bit more specific than that. But you, I think it was attributed to your sister.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:12Billy Corgan?

  Kind of turned you on to this when you were about 12 or something.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, what happened is she was, um, really very cool punk. So when punk hit, she was really just.

• 8:23Billy Corgan?

  Did she dress punk and was punk?

• 8:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's all the kind of the egg white in the hair and just right at the, the, the turn of it. And so it was like a real revolution. I mean, it was a revolution in England.

• 8:34Billy Corgan?

  And still, it, I mean, we realize it still now. It's, it's such a watershed moment in music history.

• 8:41Speaker 02

  The, the Italians were the green mohawks in Piccadilly Circus and trying their best to keep it going. But it really had its moment then.

• 8:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  And, um.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  So it was exciting to be part of that. So for me, I fit into that role of the kind of the the the cute young kid who just was go along with them.

• 8:58Billy Corgan?

  They tagging along, yeah.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they would and outside my house where we lived, the thirty one bus, right outside my house would go down to World's End and that what we had there was um on the King's Road was we had the punks uh would be one side of the street and all congregating around seditioners Malcolm McLaren and Vivin Westwood shop. And then you'd have the Teds who they would make to be the, you know, they're all fighting. I never saw.

• 9:22Billy Corgan?

  Mobs, it's like the left.

• 9:24Speaker 02

  Mobs, Teds.

• 9:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  That was that was the, you know, and then walking up and down. So we'd get thirty one bus and we'd park up there and walk up and down the King's Road all day, you know, going to did they have any money, just like the the bus money? Um, and then, you know, stuff like this at the beginning of Public Image, Public Image played on the rooftop of um of this of this building. We didn't get in, we were just all in the, you know, on the, this is like a twelve year old kid, you know, just it was all happening.

• 9:53Billy Corgan?

  Amazing.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  And um, so that really, that what that did is it really shook up the fire in me um performance wise, like I just obsessed with the Sex Pistols and Johnny Lydon, just his performance and that whole Richard III thing, that whole stage thing was just, it was just, it was just brilliant. Everything about him was just, was just um, everything that I I'd sort of wanted to be, even though I was not um, I was not a kid in a council estate, I was surrounded by council estates, but it just spoke to me that sort of rebellion and that sort of um.

• 10:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  Autonomy in that.

• 10:28Billy Corgan?

  What about the rebellion spoke to you, think?

• 10:31Speaker 02

  Um, I just think that the um, making your own way and sticking up for yourself and not not make make you a brat, but just make you um have that sort of um. Uh tenacity to just follow your own way like for example, I used to go to school every day where they'd sing Latin hymns. Latin hymns and I'm not religious at all, right? But I think that's where I learned my sense of cadence and melodies. Because I would hear those things. I always use biblical references in my lyrics, bear in mind. And so during that time, for example, I'd sit in the church and I'd see people and I'd be like, because I really did not feel connected to a god, a living god, you know, or a god that people see traditionally. I was like, come on, we can't all be.

• 11:15Speaker 02

  Come on, I'd be looking around in the congregation or whatever if I got a and I'd be, are you really? You really, is that where you really feel that, you know? And I've always disconnected from that. And then the biggest irony would be that my, I've got a half brother who with my dad had three wives, but his first wife, he had a son with and that son went on to become like a really successful person in the church.

• 11:43Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  Bishop.

• 11:44Billy Corgan?

  That's interesting.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  Yes, there's a real, between the two of us, definitely a wide range of things.

• 11:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  A wide range, a wide berth.

• 11:53Billy Corgan?

  So what were some of the artists that you saw in those kind of early punk?

• 11:58Speaker 02

  Well, the thing was.

• 12:00Billy Corgan?

  Not just punk too, because I, I'm more of a goth, you know, new waver, but

• 12:06Billy Corgan?

  you know, those, because it's such an interesting period.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, at that time I was too young to see the coolest bands that were happening. What happened for me is that I would, uh, there was a record store at the top of my street. Like the thirty one bus was there on Fairfax Road and then above it, there's this like thirty feet away is the record store. So what that gave me was, was, um, every week when I'd take my pocket money for doing chores around the house, cleaning stuff up wherever I could or not for my dad, I would get all these singles and I'd go up every week and I, you know, and so I just fell in love with all these different bands. X-Ray Specs was probably my favorite.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Sex Pistols, UK, well, not the UK subs, but I liked, I liked this guy.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  Ian Dury.

• 12:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  Ian Dury in the block.

• 12:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  It just was Billericu Dicky and all these. And what happened was, and then there was just some reggae thrown in. And then all these people around my house, all these like punks, they were like a couple of years older than me. And I just thought they were so cool. And they lived their life, there were squats with my sister, they'd be to the squats. I just couldn't believe that these, it just seemed like freedom. It was like, you know, they were like anarchy and freedom and they do the living in squats. Uh, around the corner from my house. And we'd go to these mansion blocks. And I was like, that's just the token kid. So I like that spirit. So that just transferred and really the more that I think about it, even though I'm pushing maybe faster than the, the, you want.

• 13:40Billy Corgan?

  No, no.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  That's what got me into that performance of, you know, the time when I was making music in London, it didn't really, the, the whole Britpop thing. Didn't have any performers connected to it. There's nothing.

• 13:50Billy Corgan?

  What was the shoegazers, right?

• 13:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I love my Birdie Valentine, that's one of my favorite bands, but not to go and see, you know, go and see the throwing muses and it's not a big deal, you know? And so I like that performance stuff and, and, and that's what I liked about the, I never saw like, I loved the Gang of Four, but I'd never saw them live. You know, they were just a little bit before I could get in places.

• 14:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  So, um, it was really like people like Perry, you know, Perry and Jane's Addiction, I saw at this really tiny club. In a Portobello Road. And that just was just one of those life changing moments of just like.

• 14:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  To be mesmerizing, like I'd seen Jim Morrison on, on video and I'd be like, you know, he's got this.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  Sinewy way on stage and he's trying to, you know, and I was trying to work out my own stage thing and starting in it, you know, being terrible and just like, what do the great people do? And, and that's why often it, it comes back around, you know? Um, and I think that that, that's what I love so much about, um, the guitar sound that was hearing from, from, you know, from America with. James, with Alice and chains with yourself, you know, it just was, it was so much, it was exciting to me, you know, I didn't want to be, if people.

• 15:04Billy Corgan?

  Now you're skipping ahead in my story.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, so my bad, but I just, I just, I've been thinking about it, so.

• 15:09Billy Corgan?

  No, because, because I, what I was, where I was gonna go next is, is when did you pick up a guitar? Like, we're in this arc, did you pick up a guitar?

• 15:19Speaker 02

  Well, I got given a bass when I was fourteen. And I used to take, uh, you begin that began with that question. And my sister's boyfriend had a band. So what I did was like, just help them move gear around and go to rehearsal rooms. And you know, rehearsal rooms like I do is like, you know, that, that's dank, squalor, stink.

• 15:42Billy Corgan?

  The worst.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  Um, you know, everything sounds awful.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  Uh, filthy mirrors.

• 15:48Billy Corgan?

  Smell.

• 15:48Speaker 02

  Dirty, dirty sink and I, and I fucking love.

• 15:52Billy Corgan?

  You take, you, I loved it. I'm still like.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  I know, I just, it just sort of felt that I was there to um, get something done.

• 16:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  It just felt like I didn't, you don't want it that everyone would do it. Like if it was, if it was like sort of flying first class in Emirates to do, to do a band. Literally too many people would be doing it. Yeah. And like the fact you have to go through this rite of passage. And you have to accept the stink.

• 16:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So. When do you start playing the guitar?

• 16:22Speaker 02

  Um, the guitar was probably. Sixteen, seventeen and just um, just getting.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  Really trying to understand how people wrote this sort of Dylan, Neil Young.

• 16:38Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  Basking.

• 16:40Billy Corgan?

  So is more you were think of it as a songwriting.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  All as a songwriter. I mean, it's only much later on that I just was um. I started studying much more and I went to see a great guitar teacher that I still work with today. Uh, the legendary Jean Mark. Um, he's very well known in LA. And I said to him, cause he teaches, was working with my guitar player, Chris. And I said to him, will you come and teach me, you know, I'm, I need to, I'm getting lost around the net. This is ridiculous, you know, I need to get my shit together. And um, he goes, uh, I said, by the way, I'm, I really have a songwriter. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not Chris, you know, don't, don't be, he goes, yeah, but your composition is awesome. So he was, uh, so yeah, it began like that. Um, and.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, it just began like that. I think it began much more for me more lyrically was what I felt that I could offer. First more than being able to come in and being any good at, you know, rearranging full chords.

• 17:39Billy Corgan?

  There's this, there's this band you were in, Midnight? Which I didn't know about till I started studying you up.

• 17:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:45Billy Corgan?

  Um, I was kind of surprised. What's interesting to me when I heard it was you sound like you even then. Your singing.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:54Billy Corgan?

  Your cadence of your singing and your voice is already there.

• 17:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:58Billy Corgan?

  So it sounds like the Gavin that we all know, but basically in front of a synth band is that's a fair.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, what happened is I had this amazing, because it all comes through ignorance from my perspective. It all comes through sort of pushing yourself. So when I was leaving school, I just thought it'd be so great to be a singer. Because that really was like.

• 18:20Billy Corgan?

  Never crossed your mind before?

• 18:22Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I was in a band at school, but we spent most of our time discussing what the name of the band was and playing jam songs. We did have three or four jam covers. So it just was like nothing was, we couldn't get anything going. And then, um.

• 18:38Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but what period of the jam?

• 18:42Speaker 02

  Uh, down at Tube Station at midnight.

• 18:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, right. Okay. Cause you know, if you're a jam person, you gotta kind of pick your period.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  Right, right. No, we didn't get into the style council, even though I did like those records. Uh, Paul, I think is really amazing, really incredible.

• 18:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:57Speaker 02

  So I had the weird thing about just, I used to sing verses and songs into a tape recorder and say to the guy, I didn't know enough. I'd be like, you must have a load of chords. You know, I was given the chance to play as sort of people I knew from my school. And I was like, you know, I say, play like, you know, the Stone Roses, you know, it's really happening. I said, what, what are the, well, show me what are indie chords? And I remember the guitar player been like going to me, that's just people that can't play very well.

• 19:24Billy Corgan?

  That's kind of true in a way, but.

• 19:26Speaker 02

  I was like.

• 19:27Billy Corgan?

  But they work.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, yeah, but, but there's a barbarism to it that, that, that is essential, that, that he was missing, that, um, that is, that I, I tuned too much later as I got better at guitar. And all that happened is that then the next band I was in. Um, we've had a number of names.

• 19:47Billy Corgan?

  Throw one at me if you could.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  Uh, there's the Little Dukes.

• 19:50Billy Corgan?

  There was. I heard about that.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  Head with two D's, but then there's another, that was the Little Dukes, right? But he was a really good guitar player. He is a really good guitar player, but really super bluesy. Now, for whatever reason, the blues don't sit with me. I don't have never really used the blues apart from.

• 20:07Billy Corgan?

  Can I say something I love? Cause when Jane's Addiction first started breaking in America, there was an article in Rolling Stone and they were in the rehearsal room with James. And the line that really stuck out in my head was Dave was playing something and Perry said, no blues.

• 20:23Billy Corgan?

  Cause if you think of James, they solved the problem of playing rock without sounding bluesy.

• 20:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean.

• 20:30Billy Corgan?

  Right? Somehow they sound epic. They're playing the same chords, but it doesn't sound bluesy.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 20:37Billy Corgan?

  Which growing up in Chicago, you know, there's always the shadow of the blues.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 20:42Billy Corgan?

  Especially if you do A to D to E. It's like, that's every blues song ever, right?

• 20:46Speaker 02

  Right. Well, it's just a sound, isn't it? That, that, and that's why I never like it. I always bristle when everyone says, calls them, uh, Bush Rock and Roll. Cause I'm always like really proud of the fact that we avoided all, all lots of blues changes. Lots of those quotes.

• 21:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I, I have a bit in here about, uh, that. So like, hold, hold that thought a little bit.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  Slide, obviously is bluesy that we did all over the first record and that thing, but, but.

• 21:15Billy Corgan?

  I don't think, I, I think you've completely avoided.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, we have. It's just a certain sound and, um, I'm.

• 21:22Billy Corgan?

  But let me get to that, please. What I try to do when I talk to somebody that I like is I try to think like, what don't I know? And oftentimes what surprises me is there's a lot, a lot of things I thought I knew, I don't know, right? And, and then when I fill it in, I get a much more, uh, three dimensional picture of what actually happened.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 21:42Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean? And especially because we were both doing it at the same time.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 21:46Billy Corgan?

  You know, your memory is like, like images flashing by in a window. But to slow it all down and go back through it, like it made me appreciate things about you that I hadn't appreciated before. So that's kind of what I want to get at, but I gotta let me get there. So, um.

• 22:00Billy Corgan?

  When did you first start hearing? You know, obviously, there was things like The Valentines, My Bloody Valentine in UK as early as, I think, eighty-nine that was going on. And there was bands like Ride and stuff like that. And then, obviously, across the pond, as you all say, there was the Seattle thing. There was what was going on in Minneapolis. Like, what part of all that? Right, what part of all that, like, first got your attention around what year?

• 22:30Speaker 02

  The year might be tough. Whenever Surf Rose, I was obsessed with four AD records, you know?

• 22:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, was it eighty-eight?

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Four AD.

• 22:37Billy Corgan?

  Surf Rose eighty-eight or nine?

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Eighty-eight, eighty-nine. So what happened was.

• 22:44Billy Corgan?

  Is that the album After Do Little?

• 22:46Speaker 02

  No, it's before.

• 22:47Billy Corgan?

  Okay, right.

• 22:47Speaker 02

  So it was like.

• 22:49Billy Corgan?

  You're talking about the Pixies, so it's another side of the hell.

• 22:52Speaker 02

  So what happened is, is that.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  Like Aerosmith were ruling the world, or like hair metal bands, right?

• 23:02Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  They're doing rock. Now, when I would listen to those, I'd enjoy Aerosmith, which are super bluesy, who are super bluesy. But only because I just couldn't believe his voice is just the most incredible instrument, you know? One of the greatest voices of all time, I think. So I loved him, but I felt really disconnected from any ability to go anywhere near that style of music.

• 23:24Billy Corgan?

  Did you?

• 23:24Speaker 02

  It just seemed I didn't have the pants tight enough. So when I, when I, when I played the Pixies.

• 23:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  And I remember the moment, because the most beautiful artwork, Vaughn Oliver, who I subsequently hired to do Razor Blade Suitcase record, because I loved him so much. If I couldn't get signed to the label, I might as well use their art director, right? And, and when I put that record on and I opened, just the, the, the Steve sound, well, it was the sound of the Pixies, but actually Steve's sound, which is just Steve's drum sound.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  And then hearing, you know, Mike or Frank Black, whatever, singing.

• 24:06Speaker 02

  I suddenly realized that it was possible to make rock music, emphatic music.

• 24:13Billy Corgan?

  I think we all had the same realization.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Singing like that.

• 24:16Billy Corgan?

  I think we all had the same realization at almost the exact same time.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  Brilliant.

• 24:19Billy Corgan?

  Good Will Cobain talked about it a lot.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:22Billy Corgan?

  I saw them in that exact same period and I had the same revelations like, how are you generating this power but you don't sound like all those other bands?

• 24:30Speaker 02

  Is that what happened?

• 24:31Billy Corgan?

  It was, everybody of course talks about Nirvana and there's a good reasons for that, but really it was the Pixies that I think cracked our heads open. We thought we can be cool and play rock.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:42Billy Corgan?

  It seemed to all kind of mash it together at the right moment.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  I was lost. It'd be fair to say that what I'd done exactly at that point is I had been in London and my second band had failed.

• 24:57Speaker 02

  And I was left looking for what to do. And it's the first time in my life I was worried about it because before that I had like brazen youth like, it will come right, it will come right. And that was just the most helpful sort of signpost on a bleak, on a bleak Yeah. mountain of where to head towards, you know? And then you have to make your way, you know? Kim being the perfect foil for him, there's so many things about it you can't emulate, you can't do, they were unbelievable. But that was where I really felt liberated, that there was hope, that there was a way forward, you know? You have to forge your own way and if you look at, then you get into like, you find Fugazi

• 25:38Speaker 02

  and you find, you know, who I just, this thing that the greatest band, that turned me on to the Jesus Lizard, that's why I was listening to all of the Steve.

• 25:47Billy Corgan?

  We had a lot of that in Chicago because Jesus Lizard was Chicago.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  Of course, yeah.

• 25:50Billy Corgan?

  And everybody would come through and play the Metro in Chicago. So we got every one of those bands. I saw Happy Mondays open for the Pixies on Doolittle.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 26:01Billy Corgan?

  Packed Metro, I mean, you couldn't move.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 26:03Billy Corgan?

  And of course, the Mondays were an hour and a half late because the lead singer was getting a VD shot. Oh, so the Mondays made everybody wait an hour and a half to start the gig. And when the Mondays came on to play, the crowd booed them out of the building. And the Mondays being Manchester, right? One of these. And they just started playing and by the end, the crowd loved them. I've never seen a band turn a hating, crowing object crowd into loving them in 60 minutes. Like I've seen in that gig. And then after that was then the Pixies doing Doolittle in that, in that moment in Chicago. You know, with Steve and his whole world there because obviously the connection. So that was really, those were really interesting ground zero moments, you know?

• 26:48Billy Corgan?

  Saw Soundgarden same time, you know, Louder Than Love, that tour.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was, that was, you see that, that for me was just the record because I was stuck in London. So I would hear that record when I heard that Loud Love. I just, I just, I feel that confusion of like one.

• 27:06Billy Corgan?

  What is this?

• 27:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, like.

• 27:08Billy Corgan?

  I remember the first time I heard them, I think I couldn't tell if they were taking the piss. And actually some people I knew were like, oh, it's a joke. They're not really playing heavy. They're pretending to play heavy.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:19Billy Corgan?

  But then you'd listen to Chris singing, you'd think, I don't know if they're pretending. There's no fucking way you could sing like that.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  And of course, Alice in Chains.

• 27:27Billy Corgan?

  Ah, great, fantastic.

• 27:28Speaker 02

  And that man in the box was, you know, Dave Jurdan. It just was like, there was hope. It was just sort of, it felt like, that was when it made sense that I began my journey really focusing on the words. And thinking that other people were doing the music and inadvertently people weren't doing the music. So when my second band with a guy, I wasn't, you know, he didn't want me to play guitar because he was a really, really good guitar player. But the point about it is, is we know it's not about being the best guitar players, having the right chords to support the song.

• 28:01Billy Corgan?

  Even the, even the feeling.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  Right. So it's to support the song. And so it just unlocked something in me. But it's interesting because, but what about with you? Did you, where did you start playing guitar? Because you're so musical, that must have been an early journey. You didn't, you didn't know like a ragamuffin like me coming in late with, you know.

• 28:21Billy Corgan?

  Well, my father was, my father was a professional musician, so, and he was a really great guitar player. So I started playing about 82, but I wanted to be a metal guitar player. So all my.

• 28:33Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. All my early playing was all shredding.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  Right, of course.

• 28:36Billy Corgan?

  Ingbe Amstein, Ritchie Blackmore, Eddie Van Halen. That's all I did for the first couple of years. And then, uh, I had a disabled brother. I still have a disabled brother. And, um, because I had to take care of him a lot, I would be stuck inside the house. So I would play the guitar, sitting on the bed. And I, and I would think it was so boring just to play chords. It sounded so boring to me. So I started playing that style where it would sound like two guitars at once. I'd never heard The Cure. And the first time I heard The Cure, I was like, wow, somebody plays like me. Because of that, Susan the Banshee, or whatever that style is, that open style. And that's when I started to merge this idea of metal.

• 29:20Billy Corgan?

  You know, and this idea of like, let's call it alternative guitar.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 29:24Billy Corgan?

  You know.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  Took a long time to catch up. Hey, that's my thing now.

• 29:31Billy Corgan?

  I mean, I was doing that stuff in, I actually, I had a band called The Marked. That played in Florida, that played that style in eighty-five. So I was combining Sisters of Mercy and Metallica in eighty-five.

• 29:46Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 29:46Billy Corgan?

  But the band wasn't very good. So I gave it up. And then I picked it back up when Jimmy Chamberlain joined The Pumpkins, and that's when we started playing rock. So we were playing rock by eighty-eight in earnest. And then we'd see bands coming through like Soundgarden and Janes and stuff like that. We opened for Janes and... So we start to see this, like, there's this other thing happening. So that's kind of where that all came from. But it all came from having played metal first.

• 30:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:12Billy Corgan?

  Not new wave.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great, it's like working, when I worked with Page, Hamilton.

• 30:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, great. We, I'm pretty sure we either opened for them once, or I saw them once.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:23Billy Corgan?

  On that, on the famous album.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  Right, meantime.

• 30:26Billy Corgan?

  Are you kidding?

• 30:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:28Billy Corgan?

  Because nobody was really playing downtune then?

• 30:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:30Billy Corgan?

  So when you heard it live?

• 30:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:32Billy Corgan?

  And it was a place that had like maybe 200 people?

• 30:34Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah.

• 30:36Billy Corgan?

  So good.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  We did, I did, you know, I always wanted to do, you know, you were somewhat chasing, especially when you're younger, like chasing a target. I thought, I know if I do a side project, it's gonna look really creative and look, it's really cool when you do people's side projects. You know, on Touch and Go, they do side projects in like four weeks and then go back to the band. I was on Interscope, so it took me a couple of years of Jimmy and Ivy making me write hit singles. I'm like, this is a side project. I'm just trying to be on, I'm meant to be on Matador Records, you know, what are you doing to me? I want to go back to my band afterwards. And, uh, you know, and Paige came in to produce us.

• 31:12Billy Corgan?

  So just for context, you're talking about?

• 31:14Speaker 02

  Institute.

• 31:15Billy Corgan?

  After Bush broke up? You do this?

• 31:18Speaker 02

  Well, I did this, they took a break and, um, one guy had, the guitar player fell, you know, he wanted to spend more time with his kids. And I said, I want to do this side project. So I always thought it looked cool when people do side projects, you know? And for whatever reason, I thought it'd be a fun thing. And, uh, but, so I had a few songs and D tune songs, a really fun dent, a C sharp. And Paige said, you know, I love to do the record. And he goes, we were leaving the meeting, he goes, all the songs are in C sharp, right? They're all in drop. I was like, yeah, absolutely. I hadn't written, I hadn't written them. I was like, yeah, of course they are. Went off and just wrote a whole lot. And so getting to that whole D tune thing was really fun. Um, I'm obsessed with D tune guitar now.

• 31:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  It's the whole world.

• 32:00Billy Corgan?

  Just so you know, I have a, I have a new guitar model that's tuned D to D.

• 32:04Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 32:05Billy Corgan?

  So it's the whole, normal guitar dropped a whole step down. And then if you want to drop it, then it's C.

• 32:09Speaker 02

  The dad guide?

• 32:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. No, no, it's the whole guitar's D, G, C, F. It's the, it's normal guitar. It's a little slightly longer.

• 32:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:20Billy Corgan?

  And it's pitched for downtuned guitar.

• 32:22Speaker 02

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 32:22Billy Corgan?

  I gotta get you one.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  I've gotta get one.

• 32:24Billy Corgan?

  It's good. It's really good.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  Who do you make it with?

• 32:26Billy Corgan?

  Reverend, yeah.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 32:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I've done four signature guitars with Reverend, so this is the fourth.

• 32:31Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 32:31Billy Corgan?

  People love it. It sounds. Chef's kiss.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Really?

• 32:35Billy Corgan?

  I'm sure chef now. All right, so let's go back. Got to keep you on my, my little timeline here. So you meet Nigel in 1991, somewhere around there, future primitive.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 32:46Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know that was the original name. So was your intention with Nigel, okay, I want to do this type of music?

• 32:52Speaker 02

  What happened with him is that I met him, we through a friend of ours and we had like a long night together. And we were just playing, he loved the Gun Club Birthday Party. And it was just really exciting getting to know someone who could play. You see, because I'd been limited to musicians, I knew the last guy was so, was too bluesy for me. So it was like doing like, every time we'd do solos, be like, why, why, what I'm meaning was, is that other blues sound? It's just not good for me. It's just like, you know, if John Mayer, who's an amazing blues guitar player, but he played on my stuff and stuff like that. So I tried to convince him to do a band together, you know?

• 33:34Speaker 02

  And he said to me, look, I'm doing these training videos for clients and they were paying a thousand pounds a time. He's maybe doing a couple of weeks. He says, well, I can't really afford to take the time out to write songs for you. If you have songs, why don't I just demo them for you?

• 33:52Billy Corgan?

  So that's That's interesting.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  That's where it all began that I wrote songs on my own. So I went and I was like, I sat

• 33:59Billy Corgan?

  You never really wrote songs on your own before?

• 34:00Speaker 02

  Never. I'd always been sat with someone.

• 34:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  So then I was like, oh my God, I was like, you're such a phony, like you say you're a singer, like write a song already. So I sat down and started writing songs and I was like amazed that, okay, oh, okay. If you'd, and I found, it was like this liberation and so I'd write and I'd take him. Like the first song I took him was Come Down. And I, and, and he demoed it up so good. And I was like, oh my God, this is incredible. And it felt, I felt so free because I felt constrained by the other bands because I had no control over the music. I could say what I liked, but I wasn't physically playing it. So it was a bit limiting.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  And by getting, um, I did write the songs myself and then he plays on top. He's doing all the Joey Santiago, all the semi tone stuff and everything's, everything's all happening. And he even did, um, when we did the, that was when Billy Cobham had that, uh, Safe From Harm. The Massive Attack had that sample out on their record on Safe From Harm. And that fit, it's similar. So I remember sitting in my bath in my apartment in London and thinking, that's it. It doesn't matter. I'm just now in a cool band. I've never been successful, but the point is this is

• 35:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, finally cool, yeah.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  I was, because every time I'd, I'd play demos for people and they would, they would be like, they'd look at me like it wasn't cool. And I'd be thinking to myself, I know it's not that cool, but it was this terrible disconnect. So this was the first time he'd be playing stuff. I'd be like, oh my God. And he, he was a master, um, Nigel of finding the right notes. Just he could find the right notes, however simple they were. I mean, the, the, the machine head intro, it's just these octaves. It's nothing, yet in that moment, in that time, on that, in that, that, so the alchemy of those two notes of his chords. Brilliant.

• 35:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:59Speaker 02

  It's just so good. And he always would do it. Uh, he'd always find those notes and elevate whatever I did. So then when I go back to him and say, I take the pressure off now. So finally can we write together, you know? Now, now we'll go back to normal. He says, none of this is working great. I'm making my money and you're bringing me good songs. So once we built up a repertoire of say 12 songs, he said, let's, uh, let's try a band. Let's rehearse them out, see what it's like. So I had a friend of mine who was a screenwriter, is a screenwriter. He subbed in drums for us for a while and he was a really, he was a jazz drummer. So he was really fun and he was on heroin at the time. He really had a laid back, good feel, right?

• 36:38Speaker 02

  And, and, and we had this, this bass player, Malcolm, uh, who's lovely Swedish guy, Malcolm Pardon. I always, I thought there might be a problem in future, the bass player called Malcolm Pardon, but he was a really amazing bass player. He left. And then I got this drummer called Amir, who was Iranian jazz drummer, because I love jazz drummers. In rock, you know.

• 37:02Billy Corgan?

  Is it because of the swing in it?

• 37:04Speaker 02

  It's the feel.

• 37:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:05Speaker 02

  You know, I mean, I would consider like Jimmy has that feel.

• 37:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  Matt, Matt from South, you know, South.

• 37:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, there's an internal swing.

• 37:12Speaker 02

  Yes, as opposed to much more.

• 37:14Billy Corgan?

  It's weird when you play with a guy who's a great drummer, but doesn't have the internal swing.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:19Billy Corgan?

  Feels a little too.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's that's that's most rock drummers for me. So then he left to join a 12-piece jazz band just before we signed our record deal. I was so sad to lose him here. He was brilliant. And and then we got Robin, who's a great drummer, but much more straight, straighter. But he did great for us. And then now these last few years, I've got a drummer who's much more in the middle with a great, with a lot of as he chops and vibe.

• 37:47Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 37:50Speaker 02

  Nick Hughes.

• 37:52Billy Corgan?

  Walk me through this. I mean, we wouldn't have to go too long into it, but my understanding is you kind of get a deal with Disney's Hollywood Records. And they just kind of stall you for a while. You kind of do that spin that they would do.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  Well, what happened is they they re-delivered, they delivered the record that was 16 stone to them. And that's the story is according to the guy from our label, Rob Cahane, that they, the record, the company, they threw the CD and said, not only are there no singles on this record, there's no album tracks and threw the record at him. Because Frank Wells, who'd signed us, got killed in a helicopter crash. So we're being reviewed by the team there, the subsequent team there, you know? And they they dropped us.

• 38:36Billy Corgan?

  Was Frank Wells killed in that crash with Stevie Revon?

• 38:39Speaker 02

  I don't know. No, I don't think so. The same crash, but it was just a helicopter crash. So.

• 38:46Speaker 02

  I was just so confused, you know, because I did the record that I went back to work, you know, I was back, I was back painting.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  So.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  I was like, well, okay, you made the record. I had no idea what was possible. No one told me what was possible. I didn't know what was possible. I was living in London, you know.

• 39:04Billy Corgan?

  And you're dealing with an American record company, right?

• 39:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I didn't know what, you know.

• 39:07Billy Corgan?

  Was there not interest in you guys in the UK?

• 39:10Speaker 02

  There was interest.

• 39:11Billy Corgan?

  To rock?

• 39:12Speaker 02

  There was, there was, that was the height of Britpop, right? So that was, that was, people were looking for like the next Pulp.

• 39:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:19Speaker 02

  And the next Oasis and.

• 39:21Billy Corgan?

  And Blur.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  And our style, I suppose. So I was, I was well known enough to, the whole community to make, to get demo time. So I could always afford to go and make the demos. I've never heard back what they thought of the demos, but I quietly was building up the repertoire of like having the real band. Because Nigel would do the stuff at his house and then we'd go in. And so all those recordings were paid for by, you know.

• 39:46Billy Corgan?

  Oh, wow.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  All, all the different labels in London.

• 39:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:48Speaker 02

  So we're just like, okay, thank you. Three, get three days in the studio and just try and do, you know, you do four songs. You know, that sort of thing and you cram it. And so then when I got this, then I did a TV show called, it was, it was the midweek show on Channel Four for a TV show and they always showed an unsigned band and they did a video. So that, that worked as a video for us. Went to this guy in America and then we had all, all the songs. That was all 16 Stone.

• 40:18Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  And they go.

• 40:19Billy Corgan?

  I know that story.

• 40:20Speaker 02

  They said, uh, he's like, oh, yeah, we'll sign him. And then everyone was like, don't sign with a guy in the valley. They, he's crazy. And I was like, or do what? Or do what? Sometimes in life you gotta jump.

• 40:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  So we just decided to jump and.

• 40:37Billy Corgan?

  This is Interscope?

• 40:38Speaker 02

  Well, no, that was the trauma. Then, so we did the record then. Then, then, then they said, oh, distribution's falling through. What does that mean? You know, we're dumb, young. What does that mean? Well, there's no one to distribute the record.

• 40:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, we could put it out, but no one's gonna.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's no one to take it from store to store. Literally can't distribute it. Oh, what do you do about that? Don't worry. Just leave it with us. So then I got the, you know, that was working. And I was doing 11 dentist offices. I've, I've said that story before. So very Kafka, because there was sort of large offices painted in magnolia color. So it's very weird, which is this.

• 41:13Billy Corgan?

  Over and over.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. And um, but I didn't feel bad because I sort of felt quite excited that I'd made a record that I was proud of. I felt good. I felt like, okay, so where's life gonna take you now? You, you, you know, you're a musician, you have this record. My aunt, who I grew up with and was like my second mum to me, like you brought up to me.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  She knew this guy called Colin and he'd made one record and it was just coolest when he came around because he was on a record. He was like sort of a, he did a sort of a yacht rock, early yacht rock stuff. I don't know what it was, but it was just like, he had, she had a record with Colin on it.

• 41:46Billy Corgan?

  He had a record.

• 41:47Speaker 02

  And he came around to the house and I just, because she lived with us, you know, I just thought, that's so cool. So like, I've done it. I've got a record and now let's see what, you know, you're young and just bouncing around and getting on with life. And then when they said, uh, oh, come to, um, you have to come to LA. Uh, K-Rock's playing your, your, uh, song. It's a, it's a hit on K-Rock. I was like, that's amazing.

• 42:11Billy Corgan?

  What is K-Rock? Did they even, did you know they were even putting it out?

• 42:15Speaker 02

  No.

• 42:16Billy Corgan?

  No one even told you?

• 42:17Speaker 02

  No. No.

• 42:18Billy Corgan?

  That's such a record label thing.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a very.

• 42:21Billy Corgan?

  So what they probably did is throw it at the wall to see if it would stick.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  Well, no, what they did is they, um, they had got the interest from K-Rock. Kevin started playing it. Then Ted Field heard it. They airied me from his car on K-Rock. And he, so then I say, he said, come to America. I remember it was in the middle of, come to America. Um, there's your record is really taken off of K-Rock and we need you to come out here. So I came back out and then they took me to the record company, um, to see Jimmy and Ted. And now I've been to all these labels before and been rejected a hundred times. So I was like, what? I've flown all this way. I don't understand. I thought you were my record deal. I was so, I even, it's just an independent label. Yeah, we don't have the capacity to distribute the record. We're just signed to us.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 43:10Billy Corgan?

  So Interscope wanted to basically do a deal with Trauma because of your record.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, so they did, they did the distribution and that's how then, and then that's when No Doubt, who'd been languishing on the five years, you know, making their record, that's when they got picked up. Jimmy said, go with this guy, look what he's done with this band, and that guy did it for them as well. That's how that worked.

• 43:34Billy Corgan?

  That's crazy.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  So, uh, that's how it worked. So, uh, that's how that, yeah, that was it. So isn't it amazing how life is like these, just like on a knife edge of things like these things, they were wasn't like, there was feeding frenzy.

• 43:48Billy Corgan?

  It had been that one day that somebody decided now when you, we would know who you are.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  There was no feeding frenzy. There was no feeding.

• 43:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, well, we got rejected 20 times, you know, before we got signed. And even then they were kind of like, okay, we're gonna give you this little side deal. So I know that feeling. You're like, you're waiting and waiting and you're like, what are we waiting for? Is it either, it's either a yes or a no.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  I feel like I'm still waiting.

• 44:12Billy Corgan?

  Waiting for what, though?

• 44:14Speaker 02

  Well, that's the thing, just the next step, just what is it, you know, uh, to just, you know, how, how, are the wolves really at the door, you know? I think that some people have it, I don't mind it, I, I, I sort of feels quite, um, it feels solid to be always in a situation where you are making your own way.

• 44:35Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  It feels like that, you know, like, I don't know what it feels like for you, but it's never stops being a fight, never stops being a, uh, it's to convince people of this, I want to do that. It's never, nothing's easy, nothing, of course, what a great idea, let's help you do that, you know? It's just always a bit like, uh, a bit challenging.

• 44:53Billy Corgan?

  My thing is, I finally realized the fight is my, with me. It took me about 40 years to figure that one out.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 45:01Billy Corgan?

  It's strictly with me. I've been fighting me the whole time.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  It's worked for you?

• 45:08Billy Corgan?

  Yes and no. Okay, so I love that you've explained all this because it does help me understand, because of course, you know, I'm just in a band and here you guys come and suddenly you're on the radio and all that stuff. And as you know, I was very critical at the time of what I perceived as second wave bands, bandwagon, you know, suddenly like, oh, now everybody wants to do grunge, you know what I mean?

• 45:32Speaker 02

  Everybody's sad.

• 45:33Billy Corgan?

  Sure, you know, A minor for, to eternity. So, um,

• 45:40Billy Corgan?

  How did you?

• 45:43Billy Corgan?

  Because you're telling a beautiful story, which is like, you know, it just kind of happened and I had faith and I found the right guy and we did the thing and here we are and it looks like nothing's gonna happen and suddenly it's happening and suddenly I'm in LA and Jimmy Iovine wants to talk to me.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:56Billy Corgan?

  You know? And then boom, you're thrown in as red meat into this culture award that was going on in America about authenticity, about who sounds like who and who has a right to play loud guitar and all that. How did that, how'd you feel about all that?

• 46:10Speaker 02

  Well, it was like bursting into the best party ever and then, and you're naked.

• 46:17Billy Corgan?

  You're very good looking, so it wouldn't be such a bad thing.

• 46:20Speaker 02

  I just mean the idea that you, you know, I, I think that before I found a way to, to connect with people that liked the band, I just always felt out of place, really out of place. Like I just knew that there was something. I even had this weirdest thing when I was a kid, I used to dream about Los Angeles. I had no reality, no connection, no justification for that. It just seemed to be a, some sort of Xanadu, some place that could save me and some place that I just wanted to get away from where I was. I was desperate to get away. It seemed so gray and dark and dour and I just, this couldn't, I just,

• 47:05Speaker 02

  all I could think of was Los Angeles, but I'd had nothing tangible that would justify that. It just was a notion, an idea, you know?

• 47:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, well, like a Shangri-La, right?

• 47:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:18Billy Corgan?

  So, but I just want to persist in the question a little bit more because I remember this very acutely and you and I talked about it around those times, but, but I want to hear your impression now.

• 47:31Billy Corgan?

  It's not an easy place to be if you're being held up as the example of something, you know? Especially, and, and I, I learned to know this about you over time. I didn't have that impression at the time, but over time I, I gained, I think what is a more refined impression of what you were doing musically. But it couldn't have, it couldn't have been easy to kind of be given a certain amount of stick about it.

• 47:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it was, it was so. Like it was as if when I got going and selling the records or having people come to the shows, I felt suddenly I was in the right place. This is where I should be. This is why I was like hanging on to the rope, wouldn't let go through all the things going past me. So therefore it was disappointing to not be, you know, to have that disconnect for people.

• 48:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  Because it was like from in our journey, it was like, damn, I don't know. We just wrote these songs and like, everyone said no for so long. And then somehow we got in, we snuck in the door and suddenly we're inside the building and people like it. Don't, I don't know. So we were sort of vilified for that. But um.

• 48:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, it was, it was, I think it was hardest. So the biggest disappointment was, was from contemporaries with journalists. It just was sort of, it seemed par for the course. One of my favorite things I ever did was interview Marky Smith. The Four were a massive band for me. I love the Four.

• 49:04Billy Corgan?

  Great band.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  Just.

• 49:05Billy Corgan?

  Amazing. What a, what a brilliant, what a brilliant.

• 49:07Speaker 02

  Lyrics.

• 49:07Billy Corgan?

  And yeah, all of it.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  And when I did it, I did an interview with him once for Q Magazine and where we, we were interviewed by the same journalist. And I've never seen anyone terrorize a journalist better than Marky Smith. It was just unbelievable. And I was just so naive and not good at it. And I always, you know, I kept thinking, I should have been more cynical. I should have been more, you know, I should have, you know.

• 49:28Billy Corgan?

  That's not your nature though.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  No, it wasn't so, but it didn't serve me well because I just would go into these interviews and these situations like kind of gormlessly and just open and then just be, and then just kind of be a savaged.

• 49:44Billy Corgan?

  Well, at least you understand maybe a little bit better now why I was the way I was then.

• 49:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 49:48Billy Corgan?

  I, I wouldn't take that.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, the thing is I wasn't savage in the moment. I was, it was all, it was.

• 49:55Billy Corgan?

  So they would come at me in the moment.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  Oh, right. No, I was never, I, I, I would have, I would have preferred that because it's not like, you know, it's like I grew up in a major city, so I'm perfectly good with confrontation.

• 50:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  It's sometimes easier because then I know this is where we're at.

• 50:09Billy Corgan?

  Just, yeah, just.

• 50:09Speaker 02

  This is where we're at.

• 50:10Billy Corgan?

  We're down the table.

• 50:10Speaker 02

  When you're, um, when you're just sort of, when you're naive and waffling and just full of youth and nonsense, that could be just like, you know, tailor made anyway you like. I did have a guy come up to me at, actually at Sasha's house, that my ex drummer guy helped me out, a guy from Rolling Stone who had said to me, he said, I'd got, he waited till other people had gone into another room. There was a whole big dinner and he wanted to talk to me on my own. And he said, I want to really apologize to you for my review of Razorblade Suitcase.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  There was an editorial slant when I was told and Steve Albini had said, you should listen to this band. You must listen to this band. Don't count this band out. They're much more interesting than anything. And he said, he said, I wouldn't do it and I savaged you and I just want to apologize for that. I said, well, I sure hope you feel better.

• 50:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, to give, to give some context to what you're saying, I've met journalists through the years and they would, they would turn in a review of our records and the editor would say, you need to go back and rewrite this and slag the band. Or even lose your job.

• 51:13Speaker 02

  This is so weird because I don't think of you like that. I think of this pumpkins as such a.

• 51:18Billy Corgan?

  Oh, we got horrible, we got horrible reviews in the time. Horrible. Yeah. You got too much, you, you, you got kids, but we got horrible reviews. Horrible, horrible, especially in the UK. The worst reviews we got was in the UK.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  Right. That doesn't really make sense to me, but I, I was completely unaware of that. That's a, a, a.

• 51:37Billy Corgan?

  Well, it always looks, it always looks rosy.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  I mean, I think I've done, I don't think you've quite had your fair. Um accolades of the devastating place you have in music. The musicality you brought to rock is your, there's no one who's done it like.

• 51:54Billy Corgan?

  Oh, good push.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  I do think that.

• 51:55Billy Corgan?

  Thank you.

• 51:55Speaker 02

  That's and and it's funny because my son is so in love with your band that we basically, I hear more pumpkins than anything else in my life.

• 52:04Billy Corgan?

  It's my great revenge on you.

• 52:05Speaker 02

  No, it's no, no problem. I it's I literally, it's devastating. And it that it occurred to me, and it's funny that when you're young, you know, we had that weird, that lovely talk at MTV Awards, I think it's in Europe, where you said to him, science of things. He said, I'm finally a fan. He said, I'm finally a fan. I listened to your record and I'm finally a fan. It was the third album since. And I was like, and then I remember you said to me, we were talking and you, you know, it was really fun for me to talk to you and I I sort of respect you, do you so much at that point as I do now. And again, and I said to you, you said, yeah, you know, I mean, you had your MTV moment. And I was like, I did. I did. I just go, I remember leaving, I think, God, guess I've had my moment with MTV.

• 52:47Billy Corgan?

  I'm terrible.

• 52:50Billy Corgan?

  You reminded me of the first time we ever really talked.

• 52:54Billy Corgan?

  And I and I love and respect this about you to this day. We were somewhere at something, you know, God knows where the we were in the nineties. But and I saw you and I thought, oh, God, you know, because I'd said dumb about you. And you came up and you said, why are you saying these things about me and my band? You know what I mean? And we had this kind of conversation where I was very honest with you about my impressions. And you said, OK. And I I was like, oh, he's a good guy. You know what I mean? And that began a, I don't want to say it's a relationship, but it but we've had this like beautiful kind of connection ever since then. It was like the first time I saw he's a real person.

• 53:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 53:32Billy Corgan?

  You know, not a construction, not a record company fiction.

• 53:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 53:37Billy Corgan?

  You know? And then because of that, then I started paying attention and then I became a fan. And now, because I I know I was going to talk to you, I went back and listened to everything again, and so much of this stuff holds up so well. It's aged really, really well, well-produced, well-sung, great lyrics. So you proved me and a ton of people wrong. And I mean, I figured it out in the 90s that you were part of us. Because it, you know, it was hard for us to even earn, you know, even. One quick thing, because you worked with Steve Albini. When Steve passed away not too long ago, and it was obviously a sad thing and way too young.

• 54:21Billy Corgan?

  People dug up all these quotes where Steve was slagging us off, like way, way back in the day. And I said it on one thing, but nobody really caught it. I talked about how Steve and I got to know each other, and Steve was amazing with me. He would lend us gear. He saved my ass a couple of times with like studio stuff. I recorded at Electrical. He was a fucking great guy. So it's this idea of like, that, you know, red team, blue team, you know what I mean? So I made the same mistake that Steve had made with me, you know?

• 54:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 54:55Billy Corgan?

  He's there, I'm over here, you know? And I'm here and you're over there. And then eventually we all figure out like, no, we're actually all kind of in the same club. And we kind of come at it from different ways. And in a good way, I'm appreciative of Steve because Steve was, if you're going to hold people up on the, let's call it the Integrity Olympics. Steve was the Integrity Olympics. He was that guy. He was the guy who would record a band for $500. He was the guy who lived it. And he wasn't just, a lot of those people are fake, as you know.

• 55:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 55:25Billy Corgan?

  The indie people, right? Steve was the real deal. So if Steve held you up to that mirror, you kind of had to look at it and say, okay, why am I really doing this? So anyway, the point I was trying to make is, you know, I think it's really cool that it's all kind of worked out. I don't know if you feel that, but I feel that now.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think that, um.

• 55:47Billy Corgan?

  I mean, you guys are doing big tours and.

• 55:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:50Billy Corgan?

  It's beautiful.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, yeah, I think that's. I hope it just comes down to just the eyes have always been on the right thing, which is just to be as great as possible. And like you're saying, the battle's with yourself. For me, in our world, the better the song you write, the better the performance you give, the easier your life is anyway. Do you know what I mean? And I just feel deeply at the wheel of my creativity. I don't feel like I'm phoning in any records, any songs, I'm not a resident. You know, I feel very, very in control and like the best at editing myself I've ever been.

• 56:34Billy Corgan?

  Well, what's interesting, because I went back and listened to the catalog recently. And from the first to that third album, there's this kind of figuring out that goes on. It might have been the touring, it might have been confidence. But when you hit that third album, you've arrived. Like, you sound like you, it's your world, it's your music. And people can't see that about you, I think, including myself. And it took me a hot minute to do it. It sells what you did short. And I think, I have this whole rant that I've been doing lately, but it's essentially like this. We all grew up in the shadow of the baby boomers.

• 57:19Billy Corgan?

  And all we ever heard about was the Beatles and Pink Floyd and the Stones, and they're still going, right? We had to kind of fight as a generation to kind of say, this is who we are. We have a different way of doing it. And in a weird kind of way, because we grew up in a baby boomer system, it pitted us against each other. We had to kind of fight to be on MTV or fight the, you know what I mean? Because the oxygen for rock bands at that time was very, very limited. So I think there's something sort of beautiful about, like, almost like...

• 57:49Billy Corgan?

  When soldiers reconcile after a war, it's like we all survive that. Those magazines, what they cared about don't matter, but our music has endured. And the fact that we can lovingly respect like, wow, what you did and what I did and what Steve did and what the Pixies did. We can all step back and say, wow, that we did anything at all is a miracle. And the fact that thirty years later, that people care, particularly young people.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 58:17Billy Corgan?

  That's the most like humbling thing. So when you say that your son loves my band, it's like, it's like it hits me right in the heart because.

• 58:23Speaker 02

  He is really, really.

• 58:26Billy Corgan?

  He's also a tea drinker from our, from our.

• 58:28Speaker 02

  He's so, yeah, he's, oh my God, that was the best day of his life when he got that package from Polly. He just thought it was a great.

• 58:34Billy Corgan?

  My wife loves you, by the way, it's just, you know. She said to say hello to you. So, um, since we were talking about Steve, talk a little bit about working with Steve Abbey Road. Last year, nineteen ninety six.

• 58:46Speaker 02

  Well, I remember.

• 58:47Billy Corgan?

  You remember nineteen ninety six?

• 58:48Speaker 02

  I guess I do. Well, I remember going for lunch with him because I, um, I got one of my, the greatest letters. From, from Steve, one of the great letters, letters of my life. So I went for lunch on a, you know, we're on tour and we're just playing clubs. But, um, we had a day off in Chicago and they said, you know, doing a new record, who do you think work with? Now that's when, um, I'd loved obviously the Pixies, but also PJ Harvey's record that, that rid of me had just could come out and.

• 59:22Billy Corgan?

  That was Steve?

• 59:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:23Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 59:23Speaker 02

  And that was my favorite record of hers. It still is. It's just, it's a super bluesy, but really.

• 59:30Billy Corgan?

  But even the way she, to be fair, I, I don't know, I don't know her, I don't know Polly, but somehow she made the blues sound.

• 59:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, because she's so fresh, but yeah, for sure. But so when I heard that record, I just, it just filled me. I remember this when we actually were making, um, sixteen standard, I remember. And I said to Clive Lang, can you make it more like this? He goes, you've got to write the songs like that. So. Whatever. When I was going to make a record, I just thought, oh my God, Steve would be amazing. Because we've been on tour now for two, three years. We'd gone, actually gone from clubs, theatres, we were playing arenas on that one record. And so it was like, we basically, you know, maybe there's Dave Jordan I'd spoken to, but I went to have lunch with Steve and I didn't know what it'd be like.

• 1:00:19Speaker 02

  I remember I met David Yow for the first time at Ross Kilda. And I said to him, I was so naive and an idiot. I was like, you know, I can't wait to meet Steve. He's, you know, he's so pure, he's so real. And Yow goes, yeah, he's really real. I was like, I knew then I'd like, I'd like, you know, it was not a good poker play. But then I went there, so I went out to lunch with him and I went for lunch with him and Heather. We went for a Greek restaurant, Greek town in Chicago. And I just-

• 1:00:50Billy Corgan?

  Which by the way, Pete Katzis, who's, uh, works with you and, and I've known Pete for thirty five years. His dad used to run around that, that very part of Chicago.

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:01Billy Corgan?

  Nick the Greek, I think, was his-

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:01:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:03Speaker 02

  Okay. Uh, protection money. Um, so we, we go for lunch and, uh, we're just talking, whatever. And then, and I got this great letter, paraphrasing this letter. And he says, um, Dear Dave, who's our manager at the time, um, I've been around so many people in the music business that I'm almost not inured to the bullshit that's around me. Heather, however, has an excellent detector and has found Gavin in fine form. And so therefore I'm more than happy to extend my services and work with Bush for their upcoming album. What details to follow.

• 1:01:42Speaker 02

  And so it was a great moment and, yeah, we did a, first off, we did a little bit in, in the countryside at Trevor Horn's studio. And it was funny seeing Steve in a, in a domestic setting with like the, the birds chirping in a wonderful old Tudor home. Um, and it sort of didn't seem right, you know? And then he had to go back to do something. And then when he came in, he had a problem and we ended up, he said, we've canceled that place and we're gonna go to Abbey Road. So we did Studio Two where the Beatles worked. And he did everything live, like, it was just so, it was so wild, like, you know-

• 1:02:19Billy Corgan?

  The tracking was live?

• 1:02:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, he didn't really believe in, um- Much overdubs unless it was compositionally intended. If you said, like, you know, I did, I said, Steve, you know, this is chorus is cool. Can I put a harmony on it? So he's like, um, okay. So I go, I come back and I see other track listing, pointless harmony. The album, I wanted to call the album pointless harmony.

• 1:02:44Billy Corgan?

  That's a pretty good time.

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  I should have called it.

• 1:02:45Billy Corgan?

  I should still, that's a, you should, I'd still use that.

• 1:02:49Speaker 02

  It's so good. And, um.

• 1:02:51Billy Corgan?

  Were you happy with the way it turned out?

• 1:02:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that what happened is that I wish that I kept on forcing him to say, I know you're not a producer, but Steve, just, what should we do? Help us, because I would, I would edit it a bit, you know? I think that we've gotten so into extending songs, um, to play, to accommodate playing live, to play an hour and a half.

• 1:03:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:14Speaker 02

  That I just don't know why I thought it was, I, you know, talking about Glenn Branca and Psycho's repetition. I don't know why it was so necessary to stay so long before I'd start singing or something. I'd be like, it's not that, these two chords are not that good. Things like that, that I just wished he'd just moved me along a bit.

• 1:03:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  But, uh, so that's, that's kind of it. So, but I, what I do get from it is a capturing of a band, which was what I wanted. It was also, it was, it was somewhat suicidal in the face of the criticism with Nirvana and the fact.

• 1:03:47Billy Corgan?

  I was gonna ask that. I mean, it's kind of like, so running into the rotor blades.

• 1:03:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's like, I just like, okay, now you'll see the difference between the bands. I was like, this is exactly how you'll find the difference between the bands. And I was already on a losing streak on that thing anyway. So it's a kind of a, you, it was like, no one was gonna, the people that wanted to hate me at that point, for those.

• 1:04:08Billy Corgan?

  Well, it was, it was a number one albums. Guess right.

• 1:04:11Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, Jimmy Ivan was like, you know, you took a chance, you were right.

• 1:04:16Billy Corgan?

  That's a good Jimmy.

• 1:04:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's the only, is the, one of the few compliments. Um, but yeah, uh.

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  It was, it was just such a seismic moment. If you can imagine, we go back to a conversation about the Pixies. To have been inspired to do music and to find my direction through the Pixies. Then to do a record with Steve Albini and with the same artwork and the way that I listen, look to the, don't you remember the artwork?

• 1:04:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  The Matador Girl, the gold cover, the monkey. I just was like, this is so beautiful. I couldn't believe it. And it was, you know, it wasn't Prince, it wasn't Aerosmith, it wasn't what was happening. It was just this new thing. And those records were larger than life. And so for me, I just was like, well, those people kind of hate me anyway. What am I gonna do? I'm not getting them anyway. But what am I gonna, how am I gonna get them back?

• 1:05:06Billy Corgan?

  Why was it three years after that record before you guys put out a third? A lot of touring?

• 1:05:14Speaker 02

  A lot of touring, two years of touring. And then that was the science of things after that. That was the one that, because I got Clive Langar involved and I said, I really want to do, it sounds ridiculous now. I mean, Nine Inch Nails were obviously doing it, but I was like, I want to combine this, I wanted to combine more of London, you know. What happened is that I was taking the criticism and I was trying to sort of work out what would, what would sidestep it? What am I missing? And I was like, are you having, do you have enough of England? Do you have enough of London in your set?

• 1:05:47Billy Corgan?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:05:48Speaker 02

  And London was all remixes, dance.

• 1:05:51Billy Corgan?

  And a drum and bass time.

• 1:05:52Speaker 02

  Drum and bass, everything like that. So I was like,

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  why don't we incorporate, just get a bit of London? Maybe they're right. You know, you don't want, if someone criticizes you, most of the time your instinct is like, yeah. And then one bit they're like, what was that you were saying about that? What was that? So you go, because you tick it off if things are fair or not.

• 1:06:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:17Speaker 02

  And I was thinking, well, on a place level, they might have a, they might have a point. So I thought that, so what I did is I said to Clive, we're gonna have this, this hybrid thing. We have Johnny Rockstar, who's a Amazing programmer, so high, he just would take ages on everything you're programming. But I'd say we combine it, we do, we have these rock songs, but then we've got like a chemicals between us, which is like much more kind of tricked out. And then we're gonna have the straightforward rock song.

• 1:06:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:47Speaker 02

  But we're just gonna create this thing where we get people used to, you know, that feeling. And that was where it began. Wanted to experiment really, and that's what they did. And then the next one was with Dave Sardi that we did make in America. To just then it was like, let's just say it was like making it in America.

• 1:07:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, like I was saying before, I think that's the record where like it all kind of came together. Did you feel, do you feel that at the time?

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, just, you know, just every record I make is an opportunity to learn something different. I mean, even up till now, the songs I put together, I play a song, I love it, I say it's so great. And I don't know why I like it so much. And then I realized it's the harmonic minor scale. And I realized that really speaks to me.

• 1:07:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:32Speaker 02

  Really, I just love all those changes. And then I try and, so every song still remains a voyage of discovery. I'm not, I'm not sort of good enough to be like, oh, I'm just gonna do this one again. I'm always like, wow, what goes on if I do that? And what I find really intriguing is because I have my studio and I can engineer myself enough and I can do, play the keyboards on it and make a lot of soundscapes, dreamsapes that people add to or subtract to, whatever. I'll put things together that the alchemy of music is still so magical to me. If I was, if I, if I go backwards and I'm asked to recreate that, I'm, I'm at a loss to know why it was so nice that those two all together. What that counterpoint was, all these beautiful accidents that you, that happen in music, you know.

• 1:08:18Speaker 02

  You know, harmony is, the understanding of harmony is just, you can, it goes on.

• 1:08:23Billy Corgan?

  Did you ever, you ever study it?

• 1:08:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've been, I've been, I have, I have studied for, for years.

• 1:08:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:29Speaker 02

  Um, to play and I studied piano, uh, which I haven't been playing recently, which is really annoying. And my son, dog as well, the other day, do you know that Billy also says he's as good at piano as a guitar?

• 1:08:40Billy Corgan?

  That's not true.

• 1:08:40Speaker 02

  And I was like, I said to him.

• 1:08:42Billy Corgan?

  I wish it was true.

• 1:08:43Speaker 02

  I said to him, you go and play, why do I never hear you play? You've got a beautiful upright here in the studio. So if you're that inspired, do it.

• 1:08:51Billy Corgan?

  Not true. I play piano terribly.

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna tell him that.

• 1:08:55Billy Corgan?

  I call it panda piano. It's like how a panda would play like this.

• 1:09:01Billy Corgan?

  There's of course one more record, but then was it the end of the 2000s that dissipation of the record business was that the band grew stale? What was the general condition that led to the band sort of stopping there?

• 1:09:14Speaker 02

  You know, I think that one guy had missed the one kid growing up because he'd been working so solidly. And I felt a bit, I wasn't sure where I was going. And that's why I did the Institute record, you know, I thought this is gonna just pick me up. And did, I worked with Paige.

• 1:09:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  Should have just done drop records from then, you know. But I did a record with Paige and I loved all the songs. And I thought, why are they not on there? When I went, then I went back to the band and said, we're gonna get it back together again. And they said, still not ready.

• 1:09:45Billy Corgan?

  Ah, I didn't know.

• 1:09:46Speaker 02

  I was like, and I really listened to the worst part of my ego. And I thought, I'll do a solo record. Nobody wants a solo record from a singer and rock band. I don't feel.

• 1:09:59Billy Corgan?

  I've been a similar.

• 1:09:59Speaker 02

  Jerry Cantrell aside, because we love him and we toured with him and his sort of thing. But I just think that people wouldn't, they want us in our bands. That's for me, they want me in the band.

• 1:10:10Billy Corgan?

  There's something that happens when you go out of your band. They're almost like mad at you.

• 1:10:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's so, not even almost. Everyone was mad at me. And I was like, it's not even my fault. They don't want to do it. I shouldn't.

• 1:10:19Billy Corgan?

  They don't want to hear that. They don't give a.

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  And then what, the weirdest thing happened to me is that then I got, was the most collaborative on my solo record. Then I was told I have to go and work with everyone. So I worked with Dave Stewart. I worked with Linda Perry. I go and work with songwriters. I've never been in a room and jamming with someone. Because imagine I told you that every song I'd written on my own, I'd take in, they amend and change and do stuff like that. I work with adults. So it's like, it's a democracy. But, you know, the better the presentation of the song, the less they're gonna change, you know? Unless they feel intrigued or with desire to. So, you know, I think.

• 1:10:58Billy Corgan?

  We don't do gossip here, but you did marry a famous person. And what struck me about it is you've had these periods in your life. I don't even know if I can be succinct about it, but it's like,

• 1:11:14Billy Corgan?

  maybe the simple way to be put it is you finding yourself. Or you put yourself in this bigger circumstance and somehow you've got to kind of find yourself. Throwing yourself into the celebrity mob of LA, particularly as a celebrity couple.

• 1:11:32Billy Corgan?

  How do you feel about all that? Because I don't know, you know what I mean?

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:38Billy Corgan?

  I mean, I know what people do to kind of smile and work with it because it's an energy. And like a bullfighter, you've got to kind of, you know, there's an advantageous and a disadvantage. And we all are aware what the disadvantage part of it is. But it struck me as interesting that suddenly now you're in the heat of this other thing. And it's not musical per se, it's celebrity driven.

• 1:12:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's so simple. I just,

• 1:12:07Speaker 02

  really,

• 1:12:10Speaker 02

  you know, when I met her, it was just magic, it was instant. And so.

• 1:12:15Billy Corgan?

  But she's a pretty magical person.

• 1:12:16Speaker 02

  That's, yeah, she is. And so that's all that I met, that's all that, you know, I was just, she changed me so much. You know, she sort of softened me in so many ways, you know? She comes from such a wholesome life that there was some taming qualities to it. That was incredibly special. So I prioritized that feeling over any interpretation of it. I was, again, I was moving so fast at that point. So many things were going on, you know, from all angles that I don't, wisdom wasn't, wasn't one of them. Reflection wasn't, wasn't one of my qualities at the time. I just was extremely, just thought she was amazing and that was all that mattered.

• 1:13:01Speaker 02

  And everything else was a consequence of that. You know, it wasn't.

• 1:13:06Billy Corgan?

  I get that.

• 1:13:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was it.

• 1:13:09Billy Corgan?

  Why the dabbling into acting? Was like a curiosity or was it an opportunity because you're kind of in it?

• 1:13:16Speaker 02

  I think it was just the desire to do something creative that I didn't have to think of first. You know?

• 1:13:21Billy Corgan?

  Like where to stand? And I'll.

• 1:13:23Speaker 02

  Well, um, I.

• 1:13:26Billy Corgan?

  Makes sense. I don't mean in a demeaning.

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no. I just mean that, you know, I think we're the same. When we go to work, you know, you start with a blank screen or a blank bit of paper. And like I've talked.

• 1:13:34Billy Corgan?

  That anxiety is something I think most people don't understand.

• 1:13:37Speaker 02

  Well, it's it's it's just right there. It's it's it's just a blank bit of space, silent screen looking at you saying, make me good. So I think there was something about, um, because I love words so much that I think that that it was inspiring to, and I never did so much of it that it took away. Cause whenever I did a movie, all the crew would be like, you know, when's the next rapper mad at me? You talk about doing a solo record, try doing a movie. People are like, what the fuck are you doing?

• 1:14:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:09Speaker 02

  Do movies? Don't care about being acted. But I like that process and I and I do, it was inspiring. It did always make me run back to doing music. Cause I was like, I know, I know, I know. It's my main thing. But I thought that Tom Waits, who's an incredible artist, one of my favorite artists of all time, the way that he just showed up in movies, that would be amazing. You'd be like, why is he doing it?

• 1:14:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:33Speaker 02

  I just thought that was a, an interesting thing to do. And it was just creative. And, um, I didn't, yeah. And, and it didn't, I was poised at one point after Constantine, it was like, I did have a massive agent. And I was poised for a whole different life that the universe said, mm hmm, no, you're not.

• 1:14:55Billy Corgan?

  Was it signs or was it something you just didn't, weren't feeling?

• 1:14:59Speaker 02

  Oh, it's stuff I didn't get hired for. I just, it just, it just didn't work out for me in a way that I thought.

• 1:15:04Billy Corgan?

  Stars didn't align.

• 1:15:05Speaker 02

  Stars did not align. I turned down, um, we turned down, um, the transporter film. We got offered right after Luke Besson. And that would have, until there's something better will come along and nothing did.

• 1:15:18Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:15:18Speaker 02

  Nothing better came along. And then I did that classic one. I had this manager who wasn't really helping me. Asked the said big agent, hey, do you think Adam should still be with you? Or, you know, like just rattled his cage a bit. Now, he should have said, no way I'm gonna step it up. He's like, maybe a smaller agent. So that was the end of that. So I was like, wow, that was at the height of, you know, I was like, okay.

• 1:15:41Billy Corgan?

  It's.

• 1:15:41Speaker 02

  But I don't feel regret.

• 1:15:42Billy Corgan?

  It's brutal up there.

• 1:15:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I don't feel any regret about it. I mean, I still do some auditioning. I still fail some things and there's some things I get, you know, I was in Sophia Coppola's movie. I was in this movie just before COVID. So they come along. I like them, you know, they're, it's a fun.

• 1:16:01Billy Corgan?

  The reason I, the reason I ask is you is in the last few years, maybe, maybe since the pandemic ended, you seem to have found like a renewed musical kind of wind or, or energy or it's like there's, it's not just the fans rallying up around you in a new generation that wants to hear your music. You seem to be kind of entering into a place of commitment.

• 1:16:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:21Billy Corgan?

  And I know you decently well, not great, but I know you decently well. And even when I see clips of you, like your whole, your, your, your energy on stage is somebody who's convicted and you're present.

• 1:16:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:34Billy Corgan?

  That's something I think maybe we as performers, you can kind of read like,

• 1:16:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:16:38Billy Corgan?

  Does he really want to be there?

• 1:16:40Speaker 02

  Right, right. No, I really want to be there.

• 1:16:42Billy Corgan?

  I can feel that. And I'm hap- and by the way, I'm happy for you because you deserve that.

• 1:16:46Speaker 02

  Thank you. I, I think that it's just an exciting time.

• 1:16:53Billy Corgan?

  I feel it's such a cool time.

• 1:16:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:55Billy Corgan?

  Isn't it?

• 1:16:55Speaker 02

  It's an exciting time. I have the freedom to make records. I, people still want to come. I spoke to my friend the other day. And he, I was feeling a bit blue because I have, I was, I have deep sort of conflicted emotions when I'm about to leave for a long time. Because I feel very guilty. I know that when I'm out there and I'm doing it, it makes sense. But before when I'm, and I just feel like I'm betraying every single entity, person, my kids, my dog. You know, they're all like counting on me being there. And it's like, by the way, I won't be here. So I have this quite. It's quite hard for me. So I was talking to my friend the other day, my oldest buddy from England. And I was like, yeah, you know, it feels heavy. He goes, oh, what you mean is it feels really hard to travel around the world for five months. And people wanted to see your songs, wanting to play live the songs you wrote.

• 1:17:40Speaker 02

  They must be awful. What a terrible feeling. How do you cope? And I was like, all right, I know. But you know what I mean? I just feel a bit blue. But you, do you feel the same way? I mean, you have young children, so it must be.

• 1:17:50Billy Corgan?

  I don't feel that way. No. One thing that we've done, my wife and I, is we made the decision when, when my son was a baby, that we would just include them as, as much as possible. So I'll take my kids on the road, just me and them, no nanny. So when the band's rehearsing, they're on stage with like the gun range headphones on.

• 1:18:12Speaker 02

  Right. But how the, okay, but when they go to school, that's a bit harder.

• 1:18:15Billy Corgan?

  No, they're homeschooled.

• 1:18:16Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:18:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:17Speaker 02

  I know I would do that. So they go with you ever?

• 1:18:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I mean, not all the time, but I'm saying as we live a life where it's totally modular.

• 1:18:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yes.

• 1:18:25Billy Corgan?

  So if I'm going on a six week run, my kids might be out for two or three of the weeks.

• 1:18:32Speaker 02

  Got it.

• 1:18:32Billy Corgan?

  And then they, by the time they're done with three weeks of tour, they're like, I want to go home and see my cat. They're happy to leave me.

• 1:18:38Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 1:18:39Billy Corgan?

  Like, you enjoy your tour, Dad, I'm going home because I want to see my cat.

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  That's a great.

• 1:18:43Billy Corgan?

  So it's beautiful because it sort of balances out.

• 1:18:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, very lucky because Chloe obviously is a perfect foil for that.

• 1:18:50Billy Corgan?

  She's the.

• 1:18:51Speaker 02

  If you, you know, if I was with, you know, someone who has a job they can't leave or a job to take.

• 1:18:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:58Speaker 02

  Places, then you get that, that disconnect.

• 1:19:01Billy Corgan?

  No, it's, it's, it's difficult because it's ultimately is a form of selfishness in it. Do you know what I'm saying? All artists are selfish. It's just the nature of the beast. I must go somewhere and be with my own thoughts. And by the way, I must share them. And not only must I share them, I need you to buy them. There is a selfishness there, but I think once the model's been proven, and in your case, you know, over thirty years, it doesn't matter what the wellspring of the thing is anymore. It exists for a reason. There's ultimately a healing or a larger message at play. And the thing I try to tell my children is we're involved in something that's bigger than our family,

• 1:19:45Billy Corgan?

  and we're a show business family. And so what we do is we entertain and we put smiles on people's faces. So you're part of that process. So when we're here, we're doing this. And when we're out, we're doing that. And that's just the way it goes. It's not to say they don't have agency in the decision-making process, because when they say to me, I want to go home. I'm like, OK, I'll put you on a plane tomorrow. If you want to go home, you don't have to stay out here with Dad on tour in Helsinki. You know what I mean? It's kind of up to you.

• 1:20:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:20:14Billy Corgan?

  And so we've kind of found this interesting balance. But I realize it's not for everybody. It's a difficult... Because there are times where like my kids don't give up where the hell we are. They're tired and, you know, they just want to watch TV. And I'm like, you know, we got to go to the gig, you know? And they're like, do we have to? Can you skip the gig today, Dad?

• 1:20:36Billy Corgan?

  I thought to ask you this one thing, because it's very rare that

• 1:20:46Billy Corgan?

  people have a common experience that most people wouldn't understand. If you talk about this, or I talk about this, it sounds a bit, you know, having a go. But I like the idea of having in this context. When you have success and you have a catalog and then bands come to see you play, what's your... Because you've put out four albums. It's the band reformed in 2010, is that right? So what's your vibe on like the expectation of the audience, the hits versus new material? Like, how do you sit on all that?

• 1:21:18Speaker 02

  I think of it from my own perspective. When I go and see a band that I love. There are certain songs that I do want them to play. And things that don't want to let me down on. But as long as they still put their, you know, foot to the floor when they write these songs, then they should play whatever they want. Um, I don't think that obscure, like I, I, I often think of sets in tempos.

• 1:21:47Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:21:48Speaker 02

  You know, and just what you might want. And if, you know, I, I'll be fully aware if I've had like, you know, two or three similar tempos, then I know I'm gonna have to pick it up.

• 1:21:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:58Speaker 02

  So I'm always just trying to avoid that lull three quarters of the way through the show.

• 1:22:01Billy Corgan?

  I love the lull.

• 1:22:02Speaker 02

  Someone, someone offers to go buy the drinks. I mean, because the lull, you play the beautiful song, you do something, but I just always thinking that, that, um, people are spoiled. And they wanna be, they just wanna be blown away by you. This is ready. It's like it's sort of a best man's speech. Like people come to your show, especially with us, when they have the history of the band. They wanna have a great time. So you've really gotta get up to get up. So in that case.

• 1:22:31Billy Corgan?

  I'm laughing because I so enjoy this process.

• 1:22:33Speaker 02

  You, I, I, I make sure on a skeletal level, we never veer too far away, too long away from, from footholds. They would know.

• 1:22:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:41Speaker 02

  They keep them in there. You can't, um, satisfy everyone, especially when you do an hour set or like a Lollapalooza. We did an hour. So there, hour and a half, I can give a nice spread of

• 1:22:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:54Speaker 02

  Don't let you down. This is new. And I, and but nothing, you know, in those spots where you maybe extract something they might know, you gotta make sure it's up, it's driving, definitely gonna be detuned.

• 1:23:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:06Speaker 02

  And it's, they're people. Makes sense, right? So that's, that's what, that's how I do it. And I try and change it up. Um, you know, every, what I do is I have slots or like the skeleton set. And then there'll be a space where that could be one of five songs can go in there. I always wanted to do that thing of where you do the completely different sets, but we just tried that and just it didn't, it was too confusing.

• 1:23:31Billy Corgan?

  We, we played with you somewhere like in the far, far east or something. I don't remember. It was somewhere. And, um, I watched about half your show and then I went back to warm up, but I could still hear you playing. And you put so much pressure on the set that I was playing because you played such a great set. Because it had an uptempo feel. Maybe does it make sense? Not that it was always uptempo, but it had up, it was the energy was very up for your show.

• 1:23:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:55Billy Corgan?

  And I thought, oh, mother, I gotta go out.

• 1:23:59Speaker 02

  But we should, I, I, I look, I look forward to the day when we tour together again.

• 1:24:03Billy Corgan?

  That would be great.

• 1:24:03Speaker 02

  We played in Portugal. I remember Portugal's that warm night. And I just thought that we just, we fit really well together.

• 1:24:11Billy Corgan?

  I was, I'd love, I love anytime. Love to tour with you.

• 1:24:17Billy Corgan?

  Couple, couple last questions.

• 1:24:22Billy Corgan?

  I feel like the wheel is finally turning the right way with you. And I'm happy about that. Because I really think, you know, our ranks are thin. We lost a lot of great people along the way. And I like it when all of us collectively, when that we're all, not that we're all friends, but

• 1:24:42Billy Corgan?

  I like it when we're all strong.

• 1:24:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:44Billy Corgan?

  I think we actually all win more if we're all strong.

• 1:24:47Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 1:24:49Billy Corgan?

  So what do you want the people? Because you've, because you've survived, you know, whatever the bull was in the nineties was its own bull. And then there's the downturn in the music business and there's the, the classic, you know, greatest hits kind of mentality of, of 2000 audiences and stuff like that. Where do you think the band's landing now? And I don't mean in the present tense. I mean, if people are looking, a 20 year old kid is looking and they don't care about any of the politics, anything. And they look like, okay, this band was there, this band was there. What do you want them to understand about your band?

• 1:25:23Speaker 02

  Well, I appreciate everything you're saying because it's, it's, it's, it's very, it's concisely putting a sort of a, an elephant to bed kind of thing.

• 1:25:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:31Speaker 02

  It's a very, very welcome. We appreciate that. I think it's just to do with. I believe in rock music, you know, I think that it really, it's, it's.

• 1:25:43Billy Corgan?

  You like, you like your guitar.

• 1:25:44Speaker 02

  I love guitar and I love the emphasis and I like the way that the combination of a lyric, a sentiment and what a guitar can do either softly, gently, you know, mayonnaise, you know, or what a guitar can do aggressively. Either way, I find it really expressive.

• 1:26:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:05Speaker 02

  And so for me, anyone who's doing rock records, I'm so in awe of and I'm proud of because I think that exactly to what you're saying, the funniest part is that we, it was a ruse all along. They made us, it was like the, we just, we were just like fodder for the, for the Roman Empire and the people because people want, I would rather have five great records than one great record. So there is no competition. The competition has always been within the band, within ourselves to be the best we can be. And then everyone rise up and like, you know, extraordinary band with you, extraordinary Soundgarden, Nirvana.

• 1:26:46Speaker 02

  It's just all these incredible Pixies, Fugazi, Jesus, all these incredible bands. And isn't it beautiful that they, they coexist? The Deftones have also been, you know, really, obviously one of the greatest bands, but really kind of endured and just stayed there like.

• 1:27:05Billy Corgan?

  Chino just.

• 1:27:06Speaker 02

  Cause he's such a great singer and it's such a great band. They deserve it. That's.

• 1:27:10Billy Corgan?

  But it's gained, it's gained gravity over time, which is really cool.

• 1:27:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:14Billy Corgan?

  Cause sometimes the only time helps you understand that.

• 1:27:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:18Billy Corgan?

  Basically what the Deftones do and what they represent has gained energy and almost like, I don't know, it just feels like it's got more weight to it.

• 1:27:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 1:27:28Billy Corgan?

  Or like with, with Jerry does, Alice in Chains always. Had that gravity.

• 1:27:33Speaker 02

  But I think also, you know, what's interesting is that, I mean, I tried to allude to this on this record. I'd be alone in this.

• 1:27:39Billy Corgan?

  And you have, these interviews aren't particularly time sensitive. We call them evergreen, but, but I know you have a new record.

• 1:27:46Speaker 02

  Well, I have a new record. And what I mean is that, is that I think that it's a really important discussion around mental health, people's mental wellbeing, the truth about the melancholy of people, the disconnection of people, which in fairness, we've been singing about forever. That's what we've been doing.

• 1:28:03Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's why we have a thing with Chloe called sorrow is the family business. That's what we do.

• 1:28:08Speaker 02

  But, but, but you can now see it in, in the, in the, in the world, in the culture, that people are talking to it. We just use guitars with that. So I just like it when, when great bands are making great records, you know? It was fantastic, you know, I'm, I'm happy to see all these bands doing well. And I do like these younger bands coming up. I think that

• 1:28:31Speaker 02

  the extraordinary kind of post-metal sound, the sort of bad omen sound, the poppy, just the records they make is just like the next level of like, it's.

• 1:28:42Billy Corgan?

  It's good. It's healthy. Okay, last thing, Gavin the chef. Take me into that.

• 1:28:49Speaker 02

  I wanted to find a way to stay home and I also wanted to find a way to get my voice back. I felt that I had been in this world for so long, the show business as such, you know? And I'd only been, this was before, you know, before, obviously podcasting is that that people now get a sense of what the people are like.

• 1:29:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:09Speaker 02

  In an extended way. But before then, we were always a sort of, exactly sort of at the mercy of the editor of how they, how we, you know, the cadres of how we speak, what we prioritize, interesting things. And that's like, now when we go on TV shows, we, you know, we're not the actors, so we, no one asks us anything about how we're doing or what our day was like. We just play the song and fuck off.

• 1:29:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:35Speaker 02

  And so. I thought, I've always had this ability, weirdly, to put food together. I don't know, just being able to put food together. People say to me for years, you should do a TV cooking show. I'll be like, doing what exactly? I mean, so what? I can grill a steak, big whoopee doo.

• 1:29:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:52Speaker 02

  And then I just came across this thing of trying to create a way of staying home, not leaving to work, so I could be around my boys more. And I thought, do this interview show, and I thought it would be so easy. And that was, it was like a seven year process of making the

• 1:30:09Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay, I didn't know that.

• 1:30:10Speaker 02

  Making the pilots and then showing it to everyone. And people were like, this is amazing, except for anyone who was a comedy editor. No one who made the reality TV or non-scripted, what we're called, nobody knew, would sign me, who knew what to do with this. It was just like my music. It was like, there's a world of no. But then you say to yourself, is it, is it a world of no? Or is it just, we're slowly working our way towards yes from someone?

• 1:30:37Billy Corgan?

  Nice.

• 1:30:38Speaker 02

  Like it was in music, I just needed one person.

• 1:30:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:40Speaker 02

  And in this, I got one person. And that's, it seems to be my fate and gives me effectively my truth, because that's how it is, that's what life is like. There's no copyrights, even though people would assume there are.

• 1:30:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. All right. Thank you, brother.

• 1:31:02Speaker 02

  Thank you.