Pod Insights The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan Dean and Robert DeLeo | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan About this episode Billy Corgan sits down with Stone Temple Pilots’ Robert and Dean DeLeo for a frank, fast‑moving sweep across three decades of rock—scraping video budgets in the “last‑of‑the‑Mohicans” label era, MTV premieres, weathering addictions, lineup shocks, and even a near‑fatal on‑stage heart attack. Early rivalry dissolves into respect as Corgan applauds the brothers’ “guitar‑and‑bass telepathy,” the distinctly Americana road‑trip vibe woven through STP’s catalog, and Brendan O’Brien’s whirlwind sessions that bottled it all. Together they savor Scott Weiland’s genre‑hopping voice, honor Chester Bennington and Jeff Gutt, and admit that—older and battle‑scarred, their true fuel is the next left‑turn riff and the moment a crowd sings back every word.
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Transcript 16,699 words · 4 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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0:30 Billy Corgan? I'm not interested in the dirt stuff. You know what I mean? It's like, it's not that interesting.
0:33 Speaker 02 I'll give it to you, baby.
0:34 Billy Corgan? There I am somewhere in Chicago. You guys come on. I watched that video. I think, who the [bleep] is this? Right? God bless STP. But he dangled you over my head.
0:44 Speaker 02 Gosh, I'm sorry.
0:45 Billy Corgan? Oh, no, no.
0:46 Speaker 02 Look, we're the last of the Mohicans. Record labels giving us some bread for a video and...
0:51 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
0:51 Speaker 02 I loved every aspect of creativity, you know?
0:54 Billy Corgan? Yeah, at the time, I kind of resented it, but now I realize it was actually a blessing. It's the last time there was any kind of order. Now, no one in this business can tell you what success is.
1:05 Billy Corgan? Welcome, the DeLeo Brothers.
1:07 Speaker 02 Thank you. Thank you.
1:08 Billy Corgan? Can you believe it's been 30 years since we've been putting out some of this music? That is just a mind blower. Because it just seems like yesterday that we were all on MTV and rousing about, pouncing.
1:18 Speaker 02 Carefree.
1:19 Billy Corgan? Carefree, you know, playing, you know, Dsus chords. You know, you still got the mains. See, I don't... He's got the good head of hair.
1:31 Speaker 02 Yeah, it does seem like just it wasn't too long ago. Gosh.
1:35 Billy Corgan? Right?
1:35 Speaker 02 It's fun, man. Yeah.
1:37 Billy Corgan? I mean, how did we go? We'll get there, but I listen to a bunch of recent stuff. I've been listening to stuff as it comes out, but I went through the kind of like sequentially, backwards. So, your solo record, Lessons Learned, which I really, really enjoyed. You worked with a bunch of different singers?
1:52 Speaker 02 Yes.
1:53 Billy Corgan? I didn't recognize any of the names of the singers. Did you just find people that you thought were right for the song?
1:57 Speaker 02 Yes, friends.
1:58 Billy Corgan? Okay.
1:58 Speaker 02 Friends that happen to be very talented.
2:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah, lots of friends. I don't have any talented friends. I don't. I was like, how does he know all these people?
2:06 Speaker 02 Yes, just, just...
2:09 Speaker 02 Finding the appropriate people for the.
2:10 Billy Corgan? Yeah, really nice. And then, if I'm saying this is Perdita?
2:14 Speaker 02 Perdita, yes.
2:16 Billy Corgan? Not quite an acoustic record, but acoustic-ish?
2:18 Speaker 02 Yeah.
2:19 Billy Corgan? What was the logic behind that, like?
2:20 Speaker 02 Heartbreak.
2:22 Billy Corgan? Okay.
2:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, a lot of heartbreak, but um.
2:24 Billy Corgan? Was it sort of a, kind of a grieving?
2:27 Speaker 02 I think so. What do you think, Dean? Yeah. Yeah. It's been something we've been wanting to do for a long time.
2:32 Billy Corgan? Was it just a kind of a public, kind of, let's just work through some of these things emotionally, musically?
2:37 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think, you know, we've always tried to incorporate, like you, try to incorporate, uh, you know.
2:43 Billy Corgan? Life's tragedies into my music?
2:45 Speaker 02 More gentle sides of our talents.
2:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
2:49 Speaker 02 And I think it was time to just accumulate that all together.
2:53 Billy Corgan? Yeah, really beautiful.
2:54 Speaker 02 Thank you.
2:55 Billy Corgan? Um, of course, that's Jeff Gut singing on that record. Sorry, Gut.
3:00 Speaker 02 Gut.
3:01 Billy Corgan? Gut?
3:01 Speaker 02 Yes.
3:02 Billy Corgan? Uh, he's, he's not gut, he's great.
3:04 Speaker 02 He's good. He's great.
3:07 Billy Corgan? And then, uh, S, you guys, somehow you don't name your albums anymore. I don't understand what this is about.
3:11 Speaker 02 We ran out of names.
3:12 Billy Corgan? Okay, so S T P, add album in 2018.
3:15 Speaker 02 With Jeff, first record with Jeff. Yeah.
3:17 Billy Corgan? And then I kind of went back through, including the, the High Rise EP with Chester singing.
3:21 Speaker 02 Yes.
3:22 Billy Corgan? Um, but I, I saw something that I, and I've been listening to you guys since the very beginning, but I heard something in these last few records that I go, ah, now I get it. If I just was thinking 90s forward in your, in your music, I always think it's the way the guitar and bass interact. Obviously has a lot to do with your relationship, I think.
3:42 Speaker 02 Yeah.
3:42 Billy Corgan? But that vibe is what I, when I think S P, I think, when I think S P T P, I think guitar's first.
3:49 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
3:50 Billy Corgan? Guitar, bass being guitar. I think that's always, like, the guitar always sets the tone over in this little weird part of America, right? Here, we're over here, we're over here. But what I heard in these, uh, your solo record, and what I heard in Perdita was like, there's a kind of a, I don't want to say it's the great American songbook. I'm not talking about like Bing Crosby times, but there's a sort of Americana thing in your music that I never really picked up on before. Does that resonate the way I'm asking it?
4:18 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think, I think it's, I think it's kind of transposed in a, in an R and B kind of Americana way.
4:24 Billy Corgan? Okay.
4:24 Speaker 02 So kind of a mixture of maybe a, maybe a, I always think of, you know, Stax comes to mind, because it's kind of a southern.
4:31 Billy Corgan? I literally just interviewed Sam Moore before you came here.
4:34 Speaker 02 Wow.
4:34 Billy Corgan? I mean, you want to talk?
4:35 Speaker 02 Sounds like he interviewed you.
4:36 Billy Corgan? Well, yes. Somehow we end up talking about fake dicks, but we'll save that for another. Not every day you get to talk to Sam War about fake dicks.
4:45 Speaker 02 That's a treat.
4:47 Billy Corgan? But there's this kind of, and this is my description, so please, I want yours. Mine's not important, but I get this like, it's like when you're driving on a road trip and you kind of go come in an interesting part of America, you know, and it's, they're not, it's not all the same. You know, you see a town with a little bit of a faded main street and then you go over here and there's the dinosaur on the side of the road. And I think there's that quality in your music, this very American quality. And I don't know, road trip is the way I would describe it. You always take me to like a different places, the guitar tones, you'd always play the same guitar tone like I do.
5:24 Billy Corgan? Does that make sense?
5:25 Speaker 02 I think so. Yeah.
5:27 Billy Corgan? So through these last couple, your record and then the Perdita, I was like, oh, the melody kind of is this American kind of melody, somewhere in between the Eagles or, I don't know, bluegrass or something. And that gives the music a kind of a sinewy quality. And what I would also tell people to do is, obviously Scott has so much to do with the way people perceive STP, but you've had these other great credible singers, Chester being one, Jeff Goot being another. Yet they, somehow they all end up kind of bowing down into the STP aesthetic. So how does that work? Because I'm surprised, because if you just listen to a song with, an original song with Jeff singing,
6:11 Billy Corgan? an original song with Chester singing, an original song with Scott singing, somehow it still sounds like STP. So what is that?
6:17 Speaker 02 I think that's because Dean and I musically, when we come up with something, there's usually a melody that goes along with it.
6:23 Billy Corgan? So you force the singers.
6:27 Speaker 02 Well, there's been, I mean, Scott, Scott was great at melody. He was amazing at melody. But I think sometimes you can't help but sing along with what you're, with what you're writing.
6:38 Billy Corgan? But I'm saying that I was surprised by that, because again, I'm, I'm a fan going back. Forward, meaning early music forward. So I had my own kind of version of like how you guys did what you did. And you hear things from studio guys, oh, this is the way they work and stuff like this. I don't know what's true or not, but I'm saying is actually going backwards gave me insight into your music in a way that I'd never had it. And I've toured with you guys, listened to you guys play many times, and
7:04 Speaker 03 I think it was we toured with you.
7:09 Billy Corgan? You guys, you guys make it hard to follow a band.
7:12 Speaker 03 Oh, that was a great tour.
7:13 Billy Corgan? It's like I'm sitting backstage warming up, you know, and I'm, it's like hit, hit, hit, hit, hit, hit.
7:20 Speaker 03 Yeah, but you got, you too.
7:22 Billy Corgan? I appreciate that.
7:24 Speaker 03 Song after song.
7:25 Billy Corgan? But you, you guys don't have that artistic problem that I have where you need to sort of foist on the audience some sort of weird Bertolt Brecht drama play in the middle of the show, right? You guys are all about good time, here's another good time, here's a, here's a heart, here's a, here's a, pull out your heart chains, here's another hit.
7:43 Speaker 03 Yeah.
7:44 Billy Corgan? My, my show always, Jimmy always, Jimmy Chamberlain always called it the art breakdown.
7:48 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah.
7:48 Billy Corgan? He's like, why do we need to do the art breakdown?
7:50 Speaker 03 That's funny. That's funny.
7:53 Billy Corgan? Real quick, cause, cause I, since I have you here, and I've never asked you this question, is it true, cause I heard this back in the day, that you used to record the tracks and then like Scott would sing on the tracks, is that true?
8:04 Speaker 03 Y- yes.
8:05 Billy Corgan? You didn't really work as a unit in making the music together, or is that, is that one of those studio legends?
8:10 Speaker 03 We did, we, we did the music, well, a lot of stuff was written on our own, too.
8:16 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
8:16 Speaker 03 We became very good at holding the phone between our legs and playing a phone into it, you know? And yeah, there was a lot of songs where Robert would bring or I would bring, and then there was a lot of songs where we'd be like, oh, I got a great part for that, man.
8:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah.
8:28 Speaker 03 And then Scott would do his thing. Scott liked going in at about nine o'clock at night when he was good and oiled up, and he would sing one or two songs.
8:38 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
8:39 Speaker 02 Yeah. You know, he just wanted to be alone with Brendan, usually.
8:42 Billy Corgan? Okay.
8:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
8:44 Billy Corgan? Did you see that as him needing his own version of it? Or did he need to be away from you? Or, I'm not saying in a negative sense. I'm saying people work in different ways. How did you take it?
8:55 Speaker 02 I utterly respected it. Yeah, he just wanted to do his thing. And like, the last thing they needed, both him and Brendan, is me chiming in. Should he do it like this? You know, like.
9:05 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Yeah, he certainly had a great intuitive sense of finding like, interesting nooks and crannies in.
9:12 Speaker 02 Yes.
9:12 Billy Corgan? Rhythms and melodies.
9:14 Speaker 02 It was great, man.
9:14 Billy Corgan? That was one of the first things I noticed about him as a singer.
9:17 Speaker 02 Yeah. And he enjoyed country music, too. I mean, he grew up with country music. He could actually sing some mean Hank Williams. He was, he was great at.
9:26 Billy Corgan? That's the thing about great vocalists is, and even I heard a track, I can't remember the name of it, you would know. It's like the third or fourth track on the EP with Chester, where he sings, he doesn't sound like Linkin Park Chester. He sings almost like, more like a choir boy.
9:39 Speaker 02 Yeah.
9:39 Billy Corgan? I actually had a, I was like, is this really Chester singing? I'd never heard it before. What a voice.
9:44 Speaker 02 Well, I think when you, you know, get introduced into something musically that's different from what you're used to, you're gonna, kinda like you said, you adapt to that.
9:53 Billy Corgan? But isn't it interesting when you take a great singer like Chester or Scott? And, and I'm sure you saw it with Scott, where it's like, there's these other voices in the voice that you didn't know was there.
10:03 Speaker 02 Exactly, yes.
10:05 Billy Corgan? You know, for me, it was always like, being a singer was like, I didn't want to be a singer. I got kinda forced into it. Because nobody would sing my songs.
10:13 Speaker 02 It worked pretty well for you.
10:15 Billy Corgan? It's okay.
10:16 Speaker 02 It worked out.
10:17 Billy Corgan? You know, we call my voice in The Wild Pony, because we never know what's gonna come out.
10:23 Billy Corgan? But I didn't want to be a singer, you know? And my own father was a really good singer, and he didn't like my voice. So it was always this weird thing of like, being put on the spot.
10:31 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
10:32 Billy Corgan? So what I'm saying is, in admiration, when I would look at a guy like Scott, I was like, oh my God, I wish I could do that.
10:38 Speaker 02 Yeah, but you do your thing.
10:40 Billy Corgan? No, but that's the beauty of it. I had to, I had to learn to, to adapt to my circumstance, which is totally fine, and I don't bemoan it. But, I mean, look, I was just sitting here with Gene Simmons, you know, talking about seeing Kiss reunite Tiger Stadium '96, and Alice in Chains.
11:00 Speaker 02 We were supposed to be on that gig.
11:02 Billy Corgan? He brought that up.
11:05 Billy Corgan? He told that story.
11:06 Speaker 02 Did he really?
11:06 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah, he told that story. But Alice in Chains did end up opening.
11:10 Speaker 02 Yeah.
11:10 Billy Corgan? And obviously, Elaine was going through his troubles. And, you know, he looked like this kind of crazy, emaciated spider in like a black catsuit, right?
11:20 Speaker 02 Yeah.
11:20 Billy Corgan? And, you know, the last time I'd seen Elaine was backstage at a chain show. Such a beautiful man physically, you know, I mean, just like, almost like too beautiful to be good. And then that, he'd open his mouth and then that voice would come out, right? Anyway, so I remember, I'm on the side of the stage watching Alice in Chains do their set. Hey, man, when Lane would open his mouth, it was like, wow.
11:42 Speaker 02 Yeah.
11:42 Billy Corgan? That sound, and, you know, I'm getting chills just talking about him. Scott had that too.
11:49 Billy Corgan? And your guy now, Jeff, Goot.
11:51 Speaker 02 Goot.
11:51 Billy Corgan? I mean, he's got one of those voices too. I mean, it's just like the power of the voice. It's like, I'm like.
11:56 Speaker 02 I don't know how you guys do it, man. Really? Especially the racket that we're making.
12:00 Billy Corgan? It's the genetics, but.
12:01 Speaker 02 Oh, my gosh.
12:03 Billy Corgan? I didn't know this because I've been doing my research here. Born in sixty-one?
12:07 Speaker 02 Yes, sir.
12:07 Billy Corgan? Sixty-six?
12:08 Speaker 02 Yes. Well done.
12:09 Billy Corgan? The baby over here?
12:10 Speaker 02 The baby.
12:12 Billy Corgan? I don't, because I couldn't find any information. How'd you get from New Jersey to San Diego?
12:17 Speaker 02 I actually wound up in San Diego.
12:20 Speaker 02 Robert kind of stayed up here. I wound up in hell.
12:24 Billy Corgan? Is that New Jersey?
12:25 Speaker 02 No, I, I, I, I came out first. I came out by myself.
12:30 Billy Corgan? What age, though?
12:31 Speaker 02 Eighteen.
12:31 Billy Corgan? Okay. Was this the, I'm coming to LA to live the dream?
12:34 Speaker 02 No, it was more like I was kind of convincing my mom. It was the three of us living together. It was Dean and my mom and myself. And I was the first one out to California.
12:45 Billy Corgan? Okay.
12:45 Speaker 02 And I was eighteen and I came out with twelve hundred dollars. And.
12:52 Billy Corgan? Was it a musical dream thing?
12:53 Speaker 02 No, it was just, we, we had a cover band and we were playing the, the, the bar circuit in New Jersey. And, and I just, I, I, I was at a dead end. My sister, our sister and brother-in-law were out in Orange County. And they said, hey, why don't you come out and live with us? So I, I took advantage of that. But, you know, I was kind of trying to fool everyone and trying to make everyone, you know, at that age, you're trying to make everyone else happy.
13:19 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
13:19 Speaker 02 You don't really know how to make yourself happy at eighteen. But you're trying to make, yeah, I'm sure, yeah, I'm gonna go to, I'm gonna go to art school and I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that. I couldn't hold a job. I got kicked out of my sister's house. I was on the street.
13:31 Billy Corgan? Why'd you get kicked out?
13:32 Speaker 02 I got fired from a job and I had some girl that spent the night over at their house. And they're like, "You wanna do that, go to a [bleep] hotel." So, you know.
13:42 Billy Corgan? I'm gonna start a band.
13:43 Speaker 02 Yes.
13:43 Billy Corgan? I'm gonna start a band. Whatever I want.
13:46 Speaker 02 I didn't know that happened. Oh, yeah.
13:48 Billy Corgan? See, that's what we're here to do, reveal love. Woo, daddy.
13:51 Speaker 02 You didn't know.
13:53 Billy Corgan? What was the name of the cover band?
13:54 Speaker 02 It was Tyrus.
13:56 Billy Corgan? T Y R S?
13:57 Speaker 02 T Y R U S.
13:59 Billy Corgan? See, I had, National Wrestling Alliance, our champ last year was Tyrus.
14:04 Speaker 02 Tyrus.
14:05 Billy Corgan? The six foot seven behemoth.
14:06 Speaker 02 Yeah. Oof, man.
14:08 Billy Corgan? 375 pounds of man.
14:09 Speaker 02 Oof. My kinda man.
14:12 Speaker 03 My kinda man.
14:13 Speaker 02 No fake dicks there.
14:14 Billy Corgan? No, sir, no. He's all man. I can attest to that.
14:17 Speaker 02 Yeah.
14:18 Billy Corgan? So, you kinda get the family to come out here?
14:22 Speaker 02 No, actually, I was out here and I bought a $650 1976 Volkswagen Rabbit. And I bought a $250 1978 Music Man Stingray bass.
14:36 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
14:37 Speaker 02 And I kinda lived with, kinda did the couch tour. A year later.
14:43 Billy Corgan? Did you date any women who took you in, kind of?
14:46 Speaker 02 I did, I did.
14:47 Billy Corgan? I did that once. It was interesting.
14:49 Speaker 02 It's not fun. It's not fun, because you feel like such a weasel.
14:53 Billy Corgan? Well, in my case, I'm still friends with the person, which is really nice. Somehow, we've maintained a relationship.
14:57 Speaker 02 That's great. Honorable.
15:00 Billy Corgan? It can happen in music. It's rare, but.
15:03 Speaker 02 It can happen, yeah. So then Dean and, take it from there.
15:07 Speaker 03 Yeah. I guess it was about 1985, yeah. My mom and I came out. And I wound up moving to San Diego not too long after. And that's kinda where we really started gigging. There was, made friends with some guys in bands down there. One of which.
15:27 Speaker 03 I'm gonna shift gears here.
15:28 Billy Corgan? Please.
15:29 Speaker 03 One of which, uh, my dear friend Josh, who, uh, he was in a pretty successful band down there. They were an original band called Honeyglaze. And, um, we did a lot of shows with them and Josh and I did a lot of cool stuff. And Josh actually said, "Hey, man, you gotta, you gotta check out this CD."
15:48 Billy Corgan? Was this Gish times or?
15:50 Speaker 03 It was Gish.
15:50 Billy Corgan? Ninety-one, yeah. Which was just, by the way, just turned thirty-three, which is another one like...
15:56 Speaker 03 I'll tell you, man, I was so knocked back by that.
15:59 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Oh, thank you.
16:00 Speaker 03 That, that, that CD did not leave my thing for like a week.
16:04 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
16:04 Speaker 03 I was really just so blown away. It had elements of prog, like, heavy.
16:09 Billy Corgan? We were so crazy.
16:10 Speaker 03 Melancholic, you know, it was just, that record, man, really, really knocked me back.
16:16 Billy Corgan? So, you know, cause I, because we're on the same level, I'd met Courtney Love.
16:21 Speaker 03 Hey, I don't come to you with my problems, man.
16:23 Billy Corgan? No, no, but I'm tying in your story is, is, um, so I knew Courtney, I think, right before Gish came out. And after Gish came out, Courtney called me and said, "It's unfair. It's like a second album."
16:35 Speaker 03 Wow, well said. That's pretty good. Well said. That's pretty good, man. That's well said, yeah.
16:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
16:41 Speaker 03 That, that record's beautiful, man.
16:43 Billy Corgan? Amazing. The drum sound, that was the original Smart Studios, which they had put together totally haphazardly. One of those weird things where it just, it was really loud in there. It sounded really beautiful. They eventually changed it and sort of destroyed what was haphazardly perfect about it. It was so loud and it was almost impossible to record drums in there with Jimmy.
17:01 Speaker 03 Wow.
17:02 Billy Corgan? And, uh, yeah, I mean...
17:04 Speaker 03 Jimmy Chamberlain.
17:05 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
17:05 Speaker 03 Badass.
17:06 Billy Corgan? Crazy.
17:07 Speaker 03 Jimmy. So, Siamese Dream was a second record, right?
17:09 Billy Corgan? Yeah, we recorded that.
17:10 Speaker 03 Yeah, I remember.
17:10 Billy Corgan? Mariana, Georgia.
17:11 Speaker 03 I remember when we were on the road and I don't know how we got a copy of it, but we're on the, we put it on in the bus. We were like...
17:17 Speaker 02 Holy cow.
17:19 Billy Corgan? Yeah, we were going for it.
17:20 Speaker 02 Did Butch do that?
17:21 Billy Corgan? Yeah, Butch did that. I drove Butch plum crazy.
17:23 Speaker 02 We're gonna start interviewing you now.
17:25 Billy Corgan? No, no, listen, we have an interesting co-joined history. We will get there.
17:29 Speaker 02 Yeah, but I have to say, let me just say.
17:31 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
17:32 Speaker 02 You guys play heavy and that first record, Gish, it was the gentle moments that were like, oh. They have, they have that. That's, that's.
17:42 Billy Corgan? Well, you guys have that too, but you come at it from a different angle. But that's what I mean. This is, there's this, even your solo record has a lot of sort of gentle SoCal.
17:50 Speaker 02 Yeah.
17:51 Billy Corgan? Kind of thing. But when I hear that amplified through your kinetic guitar playing, that was like, oh, that's the revelation I had about your music. I'd never gotten that before.
18:00 Speaker 02 It was always sitting down with an acoustic and then taking that and turning it up to 10. You know what I mean? It was always a jazz.
18:07 Billy Corgan? But because you're always so guitar forward, though, I always, I just assumed it's like, that's the way you worked. But once I heard the other stuff, I was like, ah, there's the, there's the secret sauce on STP. So you're down in San Diego. We, you know, we play down there, I think, Casbah, like.
18:21 Speaker 02 I was there.
18:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah, 75 people.
18:25 Speaker 02 Okay, so I said, so I think, I think the occupancy sign, I seem to remember this, said maximum occupancy 91.
18:35 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
18:35 Speaker 02 This is the old Casbah. Dude, all I heard was guitar and cymbals.
18:41 Billy Corgan? We didn't give a.
18:42 Speaker 02 I was there, man.
18:43 Billy Corgan? We weren't worried about you hearing the bass, let's put it that way.
18:47 Billy Corgan? But we walked into that gig, we, uh, true story, we had played Denver, uh, two nights before. So it's a Ford, it's a 24-hour drive.
18:58 Speaker 02 Yeah, big drive.
18:59 Billy Corgan? So we left Denver after a gig, Perry Farrell, Casey Nicoli, who was Perry's, Paramore at the time, that's on the cover of him, uh, nothing shocking with him in the.
19:10 Speaker 02 Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:11 Billy Corgan? And Navarro showed up at our gig.
19:15 Speaker 02 In Denver?
19:15 Billy Corgan? In Denver.
19:16 Speaker 02 Okay.
19:17 Billy Corgan? So we meet them for the first time. We had played with them, but had, I'd met Dave, but hadn't met Perry before. To meet them. Now we got a 24-hour trip and it's a snowstorm through the mountains.
19:26 Speaker 02 Oh, man.
19:27 Billy Corgan? So, Junior, as I like to refer to myself in the third person, sometimes was like, I ain't driving. So I just took a bunch of mushrooms because I knew they wouldn't ask me to drive if I was high. So I'm tripping my brains out, going through the mountains, there's like elks, you know, it's like, and um, and uh, so we drove 24 hours straight to get to that gig. So by the time we got to where you were, we were dead be tired, and then you get in front of that gig.
19:55 Speaker 03 You were like, oh.
19:56 Billy Corgan? And you go, you drove all the night for this? What the fuck, San Diego, like, what is this?
20:02 Speaker 03 Move on.
20:02 Billy Corgan? It was so small, it was the smallest gig I think we've ever played.
20:05 Speaker 03 I think this room is bigger than the stage.
20:07 Billy Corgan? It really was one of those, like, are you kidding? How do you even, how do you even put 90 people in here much as, you know, the ga- the gear? Yeah, so, and we were, you know, we were loud.
20:16 Speaker 03 Yes, you were. I was there, man.
20:19 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
20:19 Speaker 03 Yeah.
20:20 Billy Corgan? Good times.
20:20 Speaker 03 That was, yeah.
20:21 Billy Corgan? Good times. So, I touched upon it, but what was your perception of that music scene at the time? Cause you know, San Diego sometimes gets the LA and then there's San Diego. Did you feel there was its own thing, or did you get ba- you basically just feel it was wrapped in an LA version?
20:35 Speaker 03 I didn't pay much mind to it, I thought the overall music scene was really, really nice, man, there was just some really, really nice music being made, you know? Yeah. Really, yeah. Cool records were being made and it was um, look, we're the last of the Mohicans to kind of catch, you know, records, record labels giving us some bread for a video and
20:58 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
20:59 Speaker 03 I loved every aspect of the creativity, you know?
21:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah, at the time I kind of resented it, but now I realize it was actually a blessing because it was the last time, no, but it's the last time there was any kind of order.
21:09 Speaker 03 Right, right.
21:10 Billy Corgan? Now no one in this business can tell you what success is.
21:13 Speaker 03 Right. I think Kerslake just got done doing a video for you guys, and we were ju- shooting the Vaseline video.
21:18 Billy Corgan? Yes.
21:19 Speaker 03 And it was March, I think, it was cold, cold and gray, we were off, uh, in the ocean at the airport.
21:25 Billy Corgan? Sounds right.
21:25 Speaker 03 Right off the airport, in that, in that, in that ocean scene, we're going out, and we get out, like, wow, it's cold. And Kevin goes, oh, I'm so sorry, the, the camera leaked. Can we go back out, and I said, I remember saying, you remember what I said? And I know Kevin just did it, one of your videos, I said, does Billy Corgan have to do this?
21:43 Billy Corgan? Well, no, that he took, he took me up in the, in the mountains above San Francisco and it rained all night and I froze and I complained bitterly.
21:50 Speaker 02 Man, wow.
21:52 Billy Corgan? The Corgan wasn't having it, you know?
21:53 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
21:55 Billy Corgan? But just to make sure, cause I, I'm curious, so where'd you see yourself fitting in at that point? Because, you know, cause California has a way of like, everybody's so laid back sometimes, like, the lack of ambition musically can kinda be shocking.
22:09 Speaker 02 But why would I wanna fit in when I was meant to stand out?
22:13 Billy Corgan? You tell me, brother, but, no, I'm just saying, what, what, what was, what was your sort of mission statement at that point? Did you have one?
22:22 Speaker 02 Second record.
22:23 Billy Corgan? Okay.
22:24 Speaker 02 Survival. To be able to make a second and third, to be able to have a recording career.
22:28 Billy Corgan? Right.
22:29 Speaker 02 That was it, man. I just wanted to keep making records.
22:31 Billy Corgan? So you were kinda there before Scott or during, or just all kinda?
22:35 Speaker 02 No, when, when, when the four of us were, were together, that was the lightning in the bottle.
22:40 Billy Corgan? Right.
22:40 Speaker 02 Yeah. It was survival for me. I was working at Mesa Boogie on Sunset Boulevard. And, uh, you know.
22:49 Billy Corgan? Did Dag ever come in there when you were in there?
22:51 Speaker 02 I don't think you did. I would've remembered if you came in there.
22:54 Billy Corgan? Cause I didn't like Mesa Boogie.
22:55 Speaker 03 Now, that's paying dues, man.
22:57 Speaker 02 Yeah.
22:57 Speaker 03 Mesa Boogie on Sunset through the eighties.
23:00 Billy Corgan? If he'd only survived into the Nickelback era when Mesa Boogie was really over, then he would've had something.
23:05 Speaker 02 There was all the, the hair bands still. I was there in like eighty-eight, eighty-nine.
23:10 Billy Corgan? That must've been some fun conversations.
23:13 Speaker 02 It was, it was a lot of dude.
23:15 Billy Corgan? Yeah, bro. Dude, dude, bro.
23:17 Speaker 02 Dude, bro.
23:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
23:19 Speaker 02 But it was kinda survival. I mean, we, we had those songs written and it was funny, cause Scott worked across the street. He chauffeured models around. So he was across the street and he'd run over and Scott, you know, he was always a little. Spazzy?
23:37 Speaker 02 You know, he would do this and you'd come over. "I got this idea." And I'd pick up a guitar and we'd kind of sit down. And it was a good thing we had there.
23:45 Billy Corgan? So he's working across the street from the Mesa shop?
23:47 Speaker 02 He was, he was.
23:48 Billy Corgan? Okay.
23:49 Speaker 02 He was.
23:50 Billy Corgan? That's funny.
23:50 Speaker 02 It was Lloyd's, right next to Lloyd's.
23:51 Speaker 03 Right by Lloyd's, yeah. Vintage guitar, was it? What was Lloyd's?
23:55 Speaker 02 Guitar Safari, was it?
23:56 Billy Corgan? No.
23:57 Speaker 02 Lloyd and Alphonse.
23:59 Speaker 03 Yeah.
23:59 Speaker 02 But, uh, yeah, it was, it was kind of, we had these songs and I think it was just a matter of having these songs we, we, we were collected and making that first record. And not really, not really thinking about where it was gonna go. I mean, getting Brendan O'Brien, we, we originally had Eddie Offord come in.
24:20 Billy Corgan? Okay.
24:20 Speaker 02 Who engineered and mixed Yes.
24:24 Billy Corgan? Right, okay.
24:24 Speaker 02 Eddie Offord.
24:25 Billy Corgan? That would've been your dream, right? I mean, you're a big Yes guy, right?
24:28 Speaker 03 Oh, we, we picked his brain, man.
24:30 Speaker 02 Oh, God. It was, you know that Chris Farley skit where he's sitting down with Paul McCartney?
24:35 Billy Corgan? I don't know.
24:36 Speaker 03 Poor Eddie.
24:38 Speaker 02 Chris is sitting there with Paul McCartney, he goes, "Do you remember when you were in the Beatles?" That's what it was kind of like. We were young and Eddie was sitting there and he'd go, "All right, let's take that from the top." And we'd, we'd play a little bit and then we'd stop and we'd go, "How did, how did you get that sound for Chris Squire on, you know, it was, it was, it was a lesson."
24:59 Billy Corgan? On Tomato.
25:00 Speaker 02 Yeah. Tomato. Man.
25:03 Billy Corgan? Deep.
25:04 Speaker 02 Silent winds of freedom. Oh, yeah.
25:06 Billy Corgan? Have you seen John Anderson's recent touring? Have you guys been, followed that at all?
25:10 Speaker 02 With the Band Geeks?
25:11 Billy Corgan? Amazing.
25:12 Speaker 02 Amazing, really?
25:12 Billy Corgan? Have you seen it?
25:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
25:14 Billy Corgan? Amazing.
25:15 Speaker 02 Wow.
25:15 Billy Corgan? First of all, he's 79 or 80 now. He's still singing in all the original keys.
25:20 Speaker 02 Crazy, yeah.
25:21 Billy Corgan? Okay? And he's got these younger guys, probably late 30s into their 40s. So it's like hearing Yes, like the 70s version of Yes. So he's playing those songs with all that lean, that rock lean. And he's singing in those keys. You're like, I saw him play outside of Chicago. He got a standing ovation after every song.
25:40 Speaker 02 Wow.
25:40 Billy Corgan? It was that good. Note for note, perfect, with a band that can play all that stuff. And him singing all the notes and you're like, what?
25:47 Speaker 02 Oh, my God.
25:48 Billy Corgan? And I go back to John, like, "How do you do this?" He says, "I don't know, you know, good genetics, you know." I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You and I.
25:57 Speaker 03 Yeah, they're amazing.
25:58 Billy Corgan? So when did the, uh, the ubiquitous record people start knocking around?
26:05 Speaker 03 Was it ninety, nineteen ninety?
26:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, probably around that.
26:08 Billy Corgan? The first record in ninety-two?
26:11 Speaker 02 Ninety-two, it got delayed a little bit because of the name.
26:14 Billy Corgan? Mighty Joe, yeah.
26:15 Speaker 02 Right, and then it got, uh...
26:16 Speaker 03 Chicago fella.
26:18 Speaker 02 Yeah, Mighty Joe Young.
26:20 Billy Corgan? Well, there was also the movie, which was the fake King Kong.
26:23 Speaker 02 Right, right, right. But, uh, we, we had that, what it was, six months delayed.
26:30 Billy Corgan? Wow, that's, for when you're young, that must have felt like an eternity.
26:33 Speaker 03 Oh, we were like, our career's done, we're over.
26:36 Speaker 02 We were literally at our art guys, who was putting the record together. Mighty Joe Young, all the pictures, oh, it looks great.
26:44 Speaker 03 All laid out in the studio.
26:45 Speaker 02 All laid out, manager calls, uh, you gotta change the name.
26:49 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
26:49 Speaker 02 Oh, what?
26:51 Billy Corgan? See, I had a different experience, they begged me to change the name because it was so bad.
26:54 Speaker 02 Smashing Pumpkins?
26:55 Speaker 03 It's a great name.
26:57 Billy Corgan? They hated it.
26:58 Speaker 02 Really?
26:58 Billy Corgan? Everybody hated it. Everybody, everybody along the way tried to talk us out of it. And even, even James Adarson didn't like the name.
27:04 Speaker 02 Really?
27:04 Billy Corgan? My only argument for it was if you heard it once, you never forgot it.
27:08 Speaker 02 Yeah.
27:08 Billy Corgan? Because, you know, I beat somebody in a bar.
27:10 Speaker 02 I thought it was cool, man.
27:11 Billy Corgan? What's the name of your band? And you tell it, and six months later, they would be like, how's your band, Smashing Pumpkins? It was like, it's just, I was like, it's good marketing, just go with it.
27:19 Speaker 03 You know what was a cool gig, man? And I remember you guys played there, was, remember English acid?
27:23 Billy Corgan? Oh, yeah. That was our debut LA gig.
27:25 Speaker 02 Ah, that was a great one.
27:26 Billy Corgan? Jimmy Chamberlain has such a great story, so it's sold out. And, you know, we're at capacity, whatever's four fifty. And, uh, all four members of R E M. show up.
27:38 Billy Corgan? And they tell them, can't get in.
27:40 Speaker 02 What?
27:40 Billy Corgan? So they turned all of R E M.
27:41 Speaker 02 Come on.
27:42 Billy Corgan? All four of them away, from the door.
27:43 Speaker 02 No.
27:44 Billy Corgan? So Jimmy Chamberlain shows up, and the guy's like, sold out, can't get in. And Jimmy goes, he goes, but I'm the drummer of the pumpkins. He goes, yeah, and I'm Jesus Christ, you know?
27:52 Speaker 02 Really?
27:53 Billy Corgan? He couldn't get in the gig, the guy wouldn't let him in. You know, so we're all like in the dressing room, like, where the fuck's Jimmy? This is the biggest gig of our lives, you know?
27:59 Speaker 02 And he couldn't get in.
28:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
28:02 Speaker 02 Oh my gosh, man.
28:03 Billy Corgan? That was one of those gigs where we, we'd been touring, you know, doing the van thing. And this is like our first LA gig, English Acid. And all the intelligentsia of LA was there that night. And I know now because I've met everybody that was at that gig. And it was one of those magical nights where we were on point because I think we were so stressed out.
28:23 Speaker 02 Right.
28:24 Billy Corgan? LA, the delay, the vibe, the typical LA staff treating you like crap. Because, you know, who cares who the you are? Yeah, you know, yeah, all that.
28:34 Speaker 02 Yeah.
28:34 Billy Corgan? That whole vibe. So by the time we got up, and I think we launched into Shiva first off the gish, it was like, alright, you, Chicago time.
28:42 Speaker 02 Yeah.
28:43 Billy Corgan? And I just remember the audience just started going like this, like swaying. And it was like, there we go. It was, we have that on tape somewhere since that gig.
28:50 Speaker 02 Thirty something years ago? Cool venue, man.
28:52 Billy Corgan? Thirty-three years ago.
28:56 Speaker 02 It's a lifetime.
28:57 Billy Corgan? That's a lot of solos ago, right?
28:59 Speaker 02 Solos ago.
29:03 Billy Corgan? You're a guitar player too, but you know what I mean? The way we think is in terms of leads, you know what I mean? When do I get to play the lead? When's the next lead?
29:10 Speaker 02 And you always, you always had wicked lead sounds.
29:15 Billy Corgan? Well, I have.
29:16 Speaker 02 Always great tones.
29:17 Billy Corgan? Thank you. I have this thing with guitar. See, one thing I love about your brother, I'm gonna talk about him like he's not here. He's a very patient guitar player.
29:25 Speaker 02 Yeah.
29:25 Billy Corgan? You know, he doesn't rush.
29:26 Speaker 02 Yeah.
29:27 Billy Corgan? You know what I mean? He plays beautiful, languid leads.
29:30 Speaker 02 Yes.
29:31 Billy Corgan? He can shred like the best of them, but he also, I don't have that ability. Like something goes off in my brain and I'm like, go.
29:37 Speaker 02 Right, right.
29:38 Billy Corgan? Go.
29:39 Speaker 02 Terrible on a habit trial.
29:40 Billy Corgan? Well, it's not just that, I think, I feel like if I slow down, it gets boring.
29:44 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
29:45 Billy Corgan? And I'll play and I'll think, oh, that was pretty boring. And I'll hear the recording back and I'm like, I sound like I'm on methamphetamine.
29:50 Speaker 02 But it's, the aggression is what makes it great.
29:52 Billy Corgan? Yeah, but something's wrong with me, I feel like.
29:55 Speaker 02 Man, it works. Works.
29:59 Billy Corgan? Back to you.
30:01 Billy Corgan? So you get the big record deal. STP. Here you come. There I am somewhere in Chicago. You guys come on. What was the sex type?
30:10 Speaker 02 Sex type thing, yeah, yeah.
30:12 Billy Corgan? I watched that video. Scott's got the short hair.
30:14 Speaker 02 Yeah.
30:14 Billy Corgan? I think, who the [__] is this? Right?
30:18 Speaker 02 They aired the video, so it came on. Manager calls us, we're playing Florida.
30:23 Speaker 03 It's gonna be on at midnight.
30:24 Speaker 02 Gonna be on at midnight.
30:25 Billy Corgan? Was it 120 minutes?
30:26 Speaker 02 Yes. Comes on.
30:27 Billy Corgan? Was it a day with the brat on his head?
30:29 Speaker 02 Yes.
30:30 Billy Corgan? Remember?
30:30 Speaker 02 Yes.
30:31 Billy Corgan? What was his name? God bless him. Sweetest guy in the world. And he always had the rat on his head?
30:35 Speaker 02 Yes. Can't remember his name.
30:37 Billy Corgan? Dave something?
30:37 Speaker 02 Yes.
30:38 Billy Corgan? English guy?
30:39 Speaker 02 Yes. They show the video. No credits.
30:43 Speaker 03 Remember they had the credits in the bottom left corner? Name of the band? I think you and I were on the phone. I was like, dude, they don't have...
30:51 Billy Corgan? That's like such a...
30:52 Speaker 03 Oh, we were like, we're done. We're open.
30:54 Speaker 02 We're done. We're done.
30:56 Billy Corgan? Who messes that up?
30:57 Speaker 02 I don't know.
30:58 Billy Corgan? Kerslake? Kevin Kerslake?
31:01 Speaker 02 Josh Taft did that video, actually. Josh Taft, yeah.
31:05 Billy Corgan? Okay. Now, I have my own selfish opinion at this point. I'm gonna set that aside for a minute. What did you guys feel? Because you caught on fast, but there was this vibe, and I wasn't helping, that you guys were sort of like jumping on some bandwagon. Know you now, you weren't.
31:22 Speaker 02 Right.
31:23 Billy Corgan? But at the time, that was the vibe.
31:24 Speaker 02 Yeah.
31:25 Billy Corgan? Did you feel that?
31:26 Speaker 03 No. I was jumping on whatever I could, man.
31:31 Billy Corgan? Show me the bandwagon.
31:32 Speaker 03 You sound good.
31:34 Billy Corgan? No, but I get it. Yeah, I'm saying?
31:38 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think we were just... I don't know. I've always...
31:45 Speaker 02 Mind you, certain things, but I've never gotten past listening...
31:50 Speaker 02 To Music Past 1980? So I think it was all those influences that we all grew up on.
31:58 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
31:59 Speaker 02 And, and I think, you know, when we came out, I think it was a writer's, you know, a critic's way to get their piece and their claim and their stake of, I'm gonna call this grunge and I'm gonna call this, this and, you know, I, I think, I think that's really what happened in that era. And I didn't really look at it like that, cuz I was, I don't know, I was in a, like, 50s clothing back then. Wingtips and my hair slicked back and I, I was just doing my thing, you know? We were just kinda doing our thing.
32:32 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I just, cuz I always wonder how it feels on the inside because,
32:34 Speaker 02 Yeah.
32:35 Billy Corgan? You know, bands have their own kind of social economy, you know what I mean? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like how things balance and, like, you know, if you know anything about U2, like, it's really Larry's band.
32:46 Speaker 02 Yeah.
32:47 Billy Corgan? But you have to know all four guys to understand what that really means.
32:50 Speaker 02 Right, right.
32:50 Billy Corgan? Even if you told somebody through a camera, oh, it's Larry's band, they don't know what that means. But when you're with all four U2 and you see when Larry talks, everybody goes like, oh, here it comes.
32:58 Speaker 02 Yeah.
32:58 Billy Corgan? Larry has this kind of moral authority in U2.
33:01 Speaker 02 Yes.
33:02 Billy Corgan? So, I'm always curious how bands react to hyper pressure. You know, for us, it crumbled our brains, you know?
33:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, I remember, I remember Tom Carroll, our A and R guy, was, he said, you know, fasten your seatbelts. And that was good advice, I always, always took that, but I was, I mean, like you, I was just, I was glad to be out of Mesa Boogie.
33:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah.
33:26 Speaker 02 And, and have a record deal, I mean, it was a, a dream come true.
33:29 Billy Corgan? Yeah, then begins this crazy rocket ride that you guys.
33:32 Speaker 02 Rocket ride, yeah, you know. One of the greatest things, and I'm sure you'll agree, you know, we've, we've all had great fortune in doing some really wonderful things for our career. One of the greatest is getting to make these records with Brendan.
33:47 Speaker 03 Yeah.
33:47 Speaker 02 My goodness, we had such a great time making these records.
33:51 Billy Corgan? Okay, but you know the Brendan O'Brien smashing pumpkin story? I feel like I told you.
33:55 Speaker 02 Yes, you did.
33:57 Billy Corgan? Did you? I didn't tell you.
33:58 Speaker 02 Yes.
33:58 Speaker 03 I might know it then.
33:59 Speaker 02 I think Brendan told that story, actually.
34:01 Billy Corgan? Here's my version.
34:05 Billy Corgan? So, our, and our guy was Mark Williams from Georgia, which is, I think, where Brendan's from, right?
34:12 Speaker 02 Yes.
34:12 Billy Corgan? Okay. So he was really pushing Brendan to do our post-SIME stream record, which became, which became Melancholy. I've already got it in my head. Between all the drugs I'm doing and whatever else is going on, I'm gonna make it.
34:25 Speaker 02 You?
34:26 Billy Corgan? Oh, yeah.
34:27 Speaker 02 Billy.
34:30 Billy Corgan? I'm still here.
34:30 Speaker 02 Yeah.
34:32 Billy Corgan? We're gonna make this sprawling double album. Because my reaction was, I'm sick of being lumped in with the grunge bands.
34:38 Speaker 02 Yeah.
34:39 Billy Corgan? Right?
34:39 Speaker 02 Yeah.
34:40 Billy Corgan? You would be included, by the way.
34:41 Speaker 02 Yes, yes. Sorry, man.
34:42 Billy Corgan? I waltz away from you.
34:44 Speaker 02 Okay.
34:44 Speaker 03 Yes.
34:45 Speaker 02 Graceful.
34:45 Speaker 03 Post-its.
34:46 Billy Corgan? Call you off.
34:47 Speaker 02 Yeah.
34:47 Billy Corgan? You can't follow me. So, he insists, he insists that Brendan O'Brien come visit us somewhere on, I think, Lollapalooza.
34:56 Speaker 02 Yeah.
34:56 Billy Corgan? So here comes Brendan on the, on the tour bus, the classic. I'm playing him a cassette of some demos.
35:02 Speaker 02 Amazing.
35:04 Billy Corgan? And Brendan says, what are you thinking? I give out my whole spiel, this sprawling record and this thing, and it's, you know, day and tonight and the whole thing. And he goes, well, you know, I just did the Stone Temple Pilots record and we did the whole thing in a week.
35:20 Billy Corgan? And I said, mother, I hate the way this band works. This band works with me, Junior,
35:26 Speaker 02 Yeah.
35:26 Billy Corgan? in front of a council with someone like you doing take after take.
35:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
35:30 Billy Corgan? Layering all the guitars. Oh, by the way, I'm also the bass player.
35:33 Speaker 02 Yeah.
35:33 Billy Corgan? You know?
35:34 Speaker 02 Yeah.
35:35 Billy Corgan? So that ain't gonna happen.
35:36 Speaker 02 Yeah.
35:36 Billy Corgan? God bless STP. God bless S- so, so, but he dangled you over my head.
35:41 Speaker 02 Gosh, I'm sorry.
35:42 Billy Corgan? Oh, no, no. Because, but, but, look, I just knew it wouldn't work for us. It had nothing to do with you guys. But he kinda used you as like a cudgel, you know?
35:50 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
35:51 Billy Corgan? Well, they can do it. And I'm like, well, mother, not this man.
35:54 Speaker 02 But he was, he, he wouldn't have the patience for that. Because Brendan's one of these guys.
35:57 Billy Corgan? Well, that's what he said.
35:58 Speaker 02 Yeah.
35:59 Billy Corgan? To, to be fair, he was like, I don't have that kind of patience. And I said, well, I do.
36:02 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:03 Billy Corgan? You know what I mean? And we sat on an eight-month journey, which became that record.
36:06 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:06 Billy Corgan? And we found someone in flood who was willing to go into that insanity with us.
36:10 Speaker 02 Right.
36:10 Billy Corgan? Take after take after take.
36:12 Speaker 02 Right.
36:13 Billy Corgan? To mine out this. Whatever the hell I was after.
36:15 Speaker 02 See, ultimately, when you listen to it, it's brilliant.
36:19 Billy Corgan? Oh, thank you.
36:20 Speaker 02 And no one really knows the insides of what it takes. And all those takes that it.
36:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah, that's the weird thing. It's like, you sit down to watch a movie, do you really care? It either works or it doesn't, right?
36:31 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
36:32 Billy Corgan? Debut record, yours, eight million copies.
36:38 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:39 Billy Corgan? Crazy.
36:40 Speaker 02 I know.
36:41 Billy Corgan? Beautiful.
36:42 Speaker 02 I know.
36:43 Billy Corgan? So what was the other singles on that sex type thing?
36:46 Speaker 02 We kind of, well, we had, I was, I was doing guitar on a friend's demo. In like 90, and I was coming up with these parts.
36:56 Speaker 03 That aerosol stuff?
36:57 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:57 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah.
36:57 Speaker 02 Yeah, so I was coming up with some parts, and I was like, oh, man, that's, I think I'm gonna keep that.
37:03 Billy Corgan? He's just the.
37:05 Speaker 03 That was great guitar playing, man.
37:06 Speaker 02 Plush.
37:07 Speaker 03 That was really good.
37:07 Speaker 02 Thank you. Um, Plush was that song.
37:10 Billy Corgan? Now, do you know, though, that Scott ripped off a Pumpkin song in that song?
37:14 Speaker 02 Did he really? In which song now? In Plush?
37:18 Billy Corgan? It's, I don't know the names of the titles.
37:20 Speaker 02 Are you gonna hit me for bread when we get out of here?
37:21 Billy Corgan? No, no, no, no.
37:23 Speaker 02 I owe you money, don't I?
37:27 Billy Corgan? There's, there's, and you'll know, because you know the record, in the Pumpkin song Suffer. And I feel, and I feel.
37:38 Billy Corgan? So I'm watching MTV, Somewhere in America, and that song comes on, and I hear that, and I'm like.
37:42 Speaker 02 Ah.
37:45 Speaker 02 Yeah.
37:45 Speaker 03 I have to go back and revisit that.
37:47 Speaker 02 Ah.
37:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Good rip, though.
37:50 Speaker 02 Hopefully, he.
37:52 Billy Corgan? No, I.
37:52 Speaker 02 Gave you some money.
37:53 Billy Corgan? We'll get to Scott in a second. I love Scott. Me and him, me and him got it just fine.
37:57 Speaker 02 Yeah.
37:59 Billy Corgan? Here we are, three architects of the chaos of the 90s.
38:02 Speaker 02 Yeah.
38:05 Billy Corgan? Well, we do have the rare vantage point, because obviously, there's plenty of posthumous criticism and critique and what shoulda, coulda, and, and, and you know it as well as I do. There are these people who do this weird winners and losers thing, like, who won the 90s and who lost the 90s? It has nothing to do with record sales somehow.
38:23 Speaker 02 Right.
38:24 Billy Corgan? It has to do with somebody in New York's opinion of who won, not people who actually are, by the way, still out rocking and melting faces.
38:31 Speaker 02 Yeah.
38:31 Billy Corgan? Right? So from the inside, what was your take on the cultural part of the 90s? I was super critical, you know, and I took a lot of heat for being really critical of the falsehood of what I thought was happening. But you guys never seemed to me to be overtly political in that way. But sitting here now, how did you perceive the social part of it all?
38:54 Speaker 03 Well, I mean, our first single took a very hard stance. Scott took this first-person stance of basically a rapist. And so, I don't know, man. I mean, I can appreciate artists that do take that stance and do that. For me personally, I just wanted music. You know, I just wanted music. I didn't want any controversy. You know, I like the path of least resistance.
39:24 Billy Corgan? Did you see you guys as sort of, and I don't mean this in a dismissive way, did you see your music as somewhat escapist? You know what I mean? Like, I was always very into the social engineering part of it, which is part of my great weakness, but I couldn't help but tinker.
39:39 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah.
39:41 Billy Corgan? But when I listen to your music as a fan, like, it puts me in a good place. You know what I mean? Like, I don't feel like somebody's beaten me over the head with anything in particular.
39:50 Speaker 03 I think a lot of our stuff, you know, Scott was writing most of the lyrics. I think it was very autobiographical of what we were kind of experiencing leading up to somethinging and what we were experiencing after.
40:01 Billy Corgan? So in that way, it becomes reflective of the times, right? You're in it and you're talking about it, and that's what resonates.
40:08 Speaker 03 I look at it this way, you know, I'm sure you have friends that come out and visit you on the road that don't play music.
40:14 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
40:15 Speaker 03 They rarely listen to music, and they go out there and they go, "Holy, how do you do this? How do you?
40:23 Speaker 03 I'm tired after a day." Like, well, how do you do? And I think, you know, it's one of those things where...
40:30 Speaker 02 You get taught, we all got tossed into this, this washing machine.
40:35 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
40:35 Speaker 02 And, uh, and-
40:36 Billy Corgan? But I'm saying, did you, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but did you, how'd you feel about it all? Does that make sense? I know, I'm asking it artfully, but I'm asking you to sort of read between the lines, like, you know, it, it sort of was way, like, my favorite word of the 90s was integrity.
40:52 Speaker 02 Right.
40:53 Billy Corgan? They used this word like a weapon.
40:54 Speaker 02 Right. Well, we did silly things, you know, we went on Saturday Night Live and it was like, well, you're gonna play Plush, cause it's your hit right now. No, we're not gonna play-
41:01 Billy Corgan? Featuring Billy Corgan's-
41:05 Speaker 02 Yeah, we're, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna play Naked Sunday, which was a buried track on the record. We, we kind of, you know, you, it, it seemed like there were times when it was like, well, that's not cool. Right? It's not cool. And it was like, well, just [BLEEP] it, you know?
41:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
41:20 Speaker 02 Let's just do what makes us feel good, which we ultimately always went to.
41:25 Billy Corgan? So in hindsight, looking back, cause these are what they call halcyon days, you know? Do you feel like you got your message across? Does that translate? I- I feel like you did, so maybe I'm-
41:37 Speaker 02 I think so.
41:38 Billy Corgan? Answering your question, but do you feel like you guys got what you wanted across?
41:41 Speaker 02 Musically, yes. Musically, yes.
41:44 Speaker 03 Yeah, without a doubt.
41:45 Speaker 02 There's nothing I look-
41:46 Speaker 03 Took some time, but yeah.
41:47 Speaker 02 Yeah. There's nothing I would look back at and do differently as far as-
41:50 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
41:51 Speaker 02 My own playing, I, I, I still enjoy it. I, look, we, we're still out playing these songs.
41:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
41:56 Speaker 02 We did something right that we actually liked to go out.
41:59 Billy Corgan? Having toured with you and listening to the crowds react to you, you know, night after night after night, it's really beautiful. It's really, it's really beautiful to hear.
42:09 Speaker 02 Well, when are we gonna do it again?
42:11 Billy Corgan? Well, in a heartbeat. Touring with you guys is like, it's the easiest thing in the world.
42:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
42:16 Speaker 03 Demanding, great. We have a good time.
42:18 Billy Corgan? Awesome. It's awesome, man. I play, I play with you guys every night-
42:22 Speaker 03 We're demanding.
42:23 Speaker 02 That was a great time.
42:24 Billy Corgan? I play with you guys every night for the rest of my life.
42:26 Speaker 02 Aw, man.
42:27 Speaker 03 Back at you, Billy.
42:28 Speaker 02 Yeah.
42:28 Billy Corgan? So-
42:29 Speaker 03 Can we just, that was really a wonderful time, man. Thank you so much.
42:33 Billy Corgan? Thank you. Well, we love playing with you guys.
42:34 Speaker 02 Yeah.
42:35 Billy Corgan? And, and, listen, as you know, cause we gotta give a little love to your drummer, Jimmy Chamberlain, he's nice to all the drummers?
42:46 Billy Corgan? He's nice to all of them.
42:47 Speaker 02 Yeah.
42:47 Billy Corgan? I've never seen him not be nice to a drummer.
42:49 Speaker 02 Right.
42:50 Billy Corgan? Okay. But I hear who can play, who can't play. He has this warm spot for your drummer.
42:57 Speaker 02 Ah. That's so sweet.
43:00 Billy Corgan? That's great. All he ever talks about is, "That guy's [bleep] awesome." He loves your drummer.
43:06 Speaker 02 Wow, Eric.
43:06 Billy Corgan? And he's one of the only drummers I've ever heard him praise.
43:10 Speaker 02 Wow.
43:11 Billy Corgan? Praise, not like, "Oh, he's alright." Like...
43:14 Speaker 02 Wow.
43:16 Speaker 02 That would mean a lot to Eric. Eric's got a meter, man.
43:18 Billy Corgan? Every time I see Eric, I say, "Jimmy Chamberlain loves you."
43:21 Speaker 02 Wow.
43:22 Billy Corgan? Because that's a very select club.
43:24 Speaker 02 That is.
43:25 Billy Corgan? Because, as you know, because we're in this game, you got Jimmy Chamberlain on the bill and other drummers who can't play? I've seen him go up there like this with...
43:36 Speaker 02 Sure.
43:36 Billy Corgan? Shaking, for real. I'm not even making it up.
43:39 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
43:39 Billy Corgan? I've seen him crush other guys' souls on the drums.
43:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:43 Billy Corgan? And when we were an indie band playing CBGB's and stuff, we'd be some snotty indie band.
43:47 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:48 Billy Corgan? And we'd get up there with our Marshall half-stacks, as you know.
43:51 Speaker 02 Yes.
43:52 Billy Corgan? And just stomp them to the [bleep] ground.
43:54 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:55 Billy Corgan? Good times.
43:56 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:57 Billy Corgan? You took a lot of flak. I didn't help that with my stupidity here and there, but how did it feel to you with the kind of the criticisms that you guys got? I'm not interested in revisiting the negativity.
44:06 Speaker 02 Yeah.
44:07 Billy Corgan? I just wonder how you sort of processed it? Because everybody processes that different. I decided to go to war with everybody.
44:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
44:15 Billy Corgan? Scott seemed particularly sensitive to it. Is that accurate?
44:18 Speaker 02 Very, very sensitive to it.
44:19 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
44:20 Speaker 02 Very sensitive to it.
44:21 Billy Corgan? And, sorry, but, because I, when I got to know Scott later, in, you know, I guess later in the 90s, and it seemed to really hurt him that he wasn't viewed as an artist. Does that, does that translate you? Because you know better than I do, but that was my sense of it.
44:37 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think so. I think so. He, he was really...
44:42 Speaker 02 Trying to create this thing.
44:43 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
44:44 Speaker 02 His own thing.
44:45 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
44:46 Speaker 02 And to be quite honest, I mean, most of "Kor" was
44:51 Speaker 02 from Jim Morrison. It was that kind of Morrison derivative that he was.
44:54 Billy Corgan? But isn't it weird? It's like, at the time, that stuff seems super stressful when you're young. And now you look back, it's like, well, of course, he's just trying to figure it out.
45:02 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
45:02 Billy Corgan? Who knows who they are? I mean, there are a few of them, but they tend to die pretty young.
45:08 Speaker 02 Yeah.
45:08 Billy Corgan? You know what I mean? And we know their names, and they're on T-shirts.
45:11 Speaker 02 Yeah.
45:11 Billy Corgan? The rest of us kind of got to kind of bounce around.
45:14 Speaker 02 Yeah.
45:15 Billy Corgan? And what's weird is, is he seemed to not always be in his identity or not know who he was at different times. But when you look back now musically, his voice is always there. It's weird.
45:28 Speaker 02 Yeah.
45:28 Billy Corgan? So it was more of a personality kink? Does that translates the way I'm putting it?
45:32 Speaker 02 I don't know if he was always happy with himself.
45:35 Billy Corgan? Well, that translates, for sure.
45:36 Speaker 02 That gets into a therapy session. That gets deep.
45:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah, and I'm not trying to drag you through that.
45:42 Speaker 02 No, no, no. But he, you know, he wasn't always happy with himself. I think he was really struggling to find out who he was, getting pulled into this whole thing. I mean, he was, at first, you know, it was like, man, I'm taking all the heat and all this stuff, and, you know, Dean and I just wanted to write the best songs we could write.
46:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
46:02 Speaker 02 You know, I think that's what it was. And
46:05 Speaker 02 I couldn't be a lead singer. I couldn't be out there doing that. I'm too sensitive myself to do that.
46:11 Billy Corgan? I remember talking at one time at a, it was like one of these LA kind of things, and he was there with, I think, his wife. And, you know, it's like you find yourself in these weird situations in life sometimes, where it's like, there's me, you know, somewhere in the late 90s, trying to convince Scott of how great he is.
46:28 Speaker 02 Yeah.
46:29 Billy Corgan? You know what I mean?
46:29 Speaker 02 Was he listening?
46:31 Billy Corgan? I think he heard me, you know? And I just remember the look in his eyes. It was like he was sort of intimidated by the challenge of it all. He wasn't intimidated by what I was saying.
46:41 Speaker 02 He had a tough time with all of it, man.
46:43 Billy Corgan? Right. So the reason I come into this story in this particular moment is because I know what it's like to stand there. And have people focus on you and all that. So at least I was trying to do the, I get it.
46:56 Speaker 03 Yeah.
46:56 Billy Corgan? But look, you've made it through this gauntlet this far.
46:59 Speaker 03 Yeah.
47:00 Billy Corgan? Here we are in 1999 or whatever was the year, like you've done it. Like we're here, like you survived.
47:06 Speaker 03 Yes.
47:06 Billy Corgan? You know, and he was going through a period of sobriety and that was obviously very tough on him to maintain. So it was cool to have that conversation with him. It's something I really hold on to because I at least feel like on some level I was contributing to the positive side of the equation.
47:21 Speaker 03 Yeah.
47:22 Billy Corgan? And I'll get to where I contribute to the negative side of the equation in a moment. Did you guys kind of adapt to kind of an us versus them? Or did you just not see yourself as part of that conversation?
47:34 Speaker 03 No.
47:36 Billy Corgan? Just play and?
47:36 Speaker 03 Yeah, it was just, we were really having a good time, man.
47:39 Billy Corgan? See, well, you remind me, this, your take on it is very similar to James E. Haas and the Pumpkins take. Which is like, why are you stressing out about all this stuff? You know what I mean?
47:51 Speaker 03 Here today, gone tomorrow.
47:52 Speaker 02 James, yeah, James seems like he would do that.
47:55 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah. So we had that dynamic in our band where he's like, why you gotta be so uptight about this 18 things? You know what I mean? I'm like, you don't understand. So I'm not trying to get that out of you because, because I, I, I wish I was more like you in that regard. Where you can just be like, eh, it is what it is.
48:13 Speaker 03 It is what it is.
48:13 Speaker 02 I think there were far more positives happening than negatives.
48:18 Billy Corgan? Well, that's the beautiful part.
48:19 Speaker 03 Yeah.
48:20 Billy Corgan? And again, I saw that with you particularly on tour is you guys won.
48:24 Speaker 03 Yeah.
48:24 Billy Corgan? You won. It doesn't really matter what anybody thinks, including me. You guys won. You got this stack of music. You're still out there crushing it. You know, it's like, you won. Like, that's the thing I respect.
48:37 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah.
48:38 Billy Corgan? Cause we can go back in time machines and say, you know, 1993, what were you thinking? You know what I mean?
48:43 Speaker 03 Right.
48:44 Billy Corgan? That's all on the fly. It's like going to a quarterback, like, why didn't hit the open receiver? It's like, well, the guy who was 400 pounds was barreling down on my head.
48:51 Speaker 03 Yeah.
48:52 Billy Corgan? And I, my, my ankle hurt. You know what I mean? It's like.
48:54 Speaker 03 And we're in our early twenties.
48:55 Billy Corgan? Yeah, that's what I mean.
48:57 Speaker 03 Wow. Lot to be thrown at you.
49:00 Billy Corgan? My, making it about myself again.
49:04 Billy Corgan? And I hope you remember this moment because it's something that I really hold dear to my heart. You guys put out, now, this is one of those, this sounds like a Scott title. Tiny Music, Songs From The Vatican. Is that the, is that your title?
49:16 Speaker 03 Well,
49:19 Speaker 03 I kind of came up with this thing Vatican Gift Shop. I thought it was such a great play on words and kind of stuff.
49:25 Billy Corgan? It is.
49:26 Speaker 03 You know, Vatican Gift Shop. And I, and I called Scott and I was driving down the 101 and he was like, oh, my gosh, I love that. And this is well before we did the record.
49:34 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
49:35 Speaker 03 But when we were at the house making the record, we have, we had those little magnets with all words.
49:40 Billy Corgan? Okay.
49:41 Speaker 03 On this, on refrigerator. Yeah. And I just saw these words and these two words popped out, Tiny Music. I was like, I got the name of the record. Tiny Music. And we were like, this is great. But Scott really wanted to use, so it became Tiny Music.
49:54 Billy Corgan? So it's both your titles.
49:56 Speaker 03 Well, and I was like, dude, can we just call it Tiny Music? And he was like, really? You know, when Scott has something in his head, back me up here, Robert.
50:05 Billy Corgan? I don't have a vote, but I love Songs From The Vatican is.
50:08 Speaker 03 Yeah. Songs From Vatican Gift Shop. So it was kind of two things I came up with. But, you know, the first one, Tiny Music was thanks to the.
50:14 Billy Corgan? Was that your third album?
50:16 Speaker 03 Third album.
50:17 Billy Corgan? Okay. So that album came out. That album blew my mind. And up to that point, I wasn't an STP fan. You know what I mean? Looking back now, I realize how stupid I was being. It was more kind of weird jealousy, but when that out, no, it was true because, look, you know, you understand the competition at that level, particularly at that time, was fierce.
50:36 Speaker 03 Sure. Like it always has been with other musicians.
50:41 Billy Corgan? I can't speak for other eras, you know what I mean? I can't, you know, look, you talked to Sam of Sam and Dave. You know what I mean? He was competing against Aretha Franklin and Otis Redding and, you know, I mean, like, stone cold legends, so.
50:54 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think of, I think of that moment when, you know, Hendrix came to England and, you know,
51:00 Billy Corgan? Sure.
51:00 Speaker 02 Platten and Jeff Beck and.
51:02 Billy Corgan? Yeah, and they're all sitting there and go, here we go.
51:03 Speaker 02 And like, we're, we're out of a job.
51:05 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I think, I think, to be fair to us, we all had those horrible contracts where they could drop us at any time and, and we were playing basically a non-commercial form of music.
51:16 Speaker 02 Yes.
51:16 Billy Corgan? Like, our music at that time was not, it wasn't mainstream. They created radio stations to play our music.
51:23 Speaker 02 Right.
51:23 Billy Corgan? We didn't really get.
51:24 Speaker 02 We didn't set out to write hits.
51:26 Billy Corgan? If we were, if you were echoing the Bunnyman, you played the Aragon Ballroom in Chicago and you were winning. You weren't playing the arena.
51:33 Speaker 02 Right, right, right.
51:34 Billy Corgan? And if you were, you were like, that was like a miracle.
51:37 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
51:38 Billy Corgan? You know, the police or something like, you know, they crossed over into pop and Sting and all the whole thing. That was, if you were an alternative world, that wasn't even within reach.
51:46 Speaker 02 Yeah.
51:47 Billy Corgan? And when those dynamics changed with Nevermind, okay, now we're all in that weird pressure, so. I don't know, I might just be rationalized. Maybe I was just jealous because you guys are good, but, um, anyway. So, that album came out. I don't remember why I had it, but I was living in New York at the time. And I, it was one of those things where I had the CD in and I remember listening to the record and I thought, wow, this is fucking great. I was like, I didn't know these guys could do that. So that's when I became an STB fan.
52:18 Speaker 02 Hmm, Tiny Music.
52:20 Billy Corgan? Yes.
52:21 Speaker 02 Well, that, it's so interesting because that record is so bare bones.
52:25 Billy Corgan? But that was what it was. First of all, I was moving into more production. So in my mind, to be more sparse, that takes guts. Then to wrap it with this kind of new wavish, I don't know if you take it that way.
52:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
52:40 Billy Corgan? Little bit cheap trick, little bit of whatever, Cars.
52:43 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
52:43 Billy Corgan? Is that fair?
52:44 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's all in the mix.
52:46 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Is that fair? I'm sorry, I don't want to.
52:48 Speaker 02 No, no, no, no, yeah, a little bit, I guess. I mean, I, sadly, I missed that new wave thing. I have a much greater appreciation for it right now.
52:57 Billy Corgan? What was, what's your take on that record?
53:00 Speaker 02 Um.
53:03 Speaker 03 I gotta think what's even on it. I mean, you know.
53:07 Billy Corgan? It was a Big Bang Baby.
53:08 Speaker 03 Yeah, I was gonna mention that song. So Robert and Scott wrote that. And, and that's just the excitement of, you know, Robert coming to be like, "Check this out."
53:17 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
53:17 Speaker 03 Be like, "Oh, that's great." And, you know, I was tripping on that record.
53:22 Speaker 02 Tripping.
53:22 Speaker 03 Tripping, and Eric kind of piece wrote, wrote most of that musically, and that was such a and, you know, we made that record, and it's, it's the memories that I've made while recording the songs, you know, we, we, we made that record out in the beautiful San Inez Valley, in this massive house, we all lived there and wrote and recorded, and it was just it was fun.
53:45 Speaker 02 I, I look at it this way. When you're young and you go into a studio, you're like a little overwhelmed.
53:51 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
53:52 Speaker 02 Right?
53:52 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
53:52 Speaker 02 And you're like, "Well, it's supposed to sound a certain way, because it's a big studio, and it's a producer and everything, and" you know, I think as we Purple was made in Atlanta, in a smaller studio that was a little more "Oh, this is kind of a house," but it's, but it's, and then the third record was a house. So I think sonically the, the atmosphere kind of dictated how the record was gonna sound.
54:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
54:19 Speaker 02 I mean Brendan brought in a Mackie board. I mean, that was it was recorded on a Mackie board.
54:26 Billy Corgan? Well.
54:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
54:27 Billy Corgan? It doesn't sound like it.
54:28 Speaker 02 Yeah.
54:29 Speaker 03 We really utilized the rooms, too, and So I Know was, you know, we had the amps out in the foyer to capture that reverb, it was all natural, you know, and like
54:38 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
54:38 Speaker 03 We were cutting drums in like a Cedar Line closet, and just
54:42 Speaker 02 Lady Pictures.
54:43 Speaker 03 Silly stuff, you know.
54:43 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Well, all I know is that, that record blew my mind, and as the story goes, I saw you guys out somewhere in New York, I think it was.
54:52 Speaker 03 Oh.
54:53 Billy Corgan? And we were somewhere at the same restaurant, and I saw you guys sitting over there, and I thought I need to go over there and apologize.
54:59 Speaker 03 I remember this.
55:01 Billy Corgan? And I came walking up and I saw you guys look at me like, oh god, no.
55:04 Speaker 02 No.
55:07 Billy Corgan? Well, I'd been
55:07 Speaker 02 Stop.
55:08 Billy Corgan? To be fair, I'd been publicly critical of you because in my estimation, I was first wave and you guys weren't the first wave. It was so stupid. And I sat down, I said, can I sit down? He said, sure. You guys were super nice as you are. And I said, I have to apologize. You guys are fucking great and I'm a huge fan now and you won me over and I'm sorry for anything I've said. And we've been friendly ever since.
55:28 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
55:29 Billy Corgan? Because you guys are fucking great.
55:31 Speaker 02 Well, right back at you, man.
55:32 Billy Corgan? Thank you, but I love that story because your music won me over. You see what I'm saying? Like, your music trumped my own bias. I didn't want you to win, you understand? I wanted you to fail. Because be one less guy I gotta shove out of the way.
55:47 Speaker 02 Yeah.
55:48 Billy Corgan? You know what I mean? And I love that I was able to go, you know what? These guys fucking belong.
55:54 Speaker 02 Thank you, Bill.
55:54 Billy Corgan? And you've proven that.
55:55 Speaker 02 Thank you.
55:55 Billy Corgan? But it was that, for me, was that moment where I was like... So now when I go back and listen to Sex Type Thing or whatever, I'm like, this is a great song, you know what I mean? I'm not hearing it through the bias of like, oh no, what's this? You know, another guy on the battlefield, I have to...
56:09 Speaker 02 There is a difference between the musician brain and the listener brain.
56:12 Billy Corgan? Again, to be fair to James Eha, James Eha was always the guy that when we would play with other bands, you know, he'd go over there with the beer and talk to them and be friendly. And I'd be like...
56:21 Speaker 02 Ah, he's a sweetheart.
56:22 Billy Corgan? Talk to them, you know?
56:23 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
56:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah. He was always more like, sort of like, he didn't, he didn't, he didn't understand the combative aspect of my brain.
56:31 Speaker 02 Right, right.
56:33 Billy Corgan? I feel like you guys have been put on the block 18,000 times about Scott's issues. So when I set up this part of our conversation, I'm not here to find fresh stuff or tell me the story that'll break your heart. It's more of like, I'm more interested in your inner navigation because I think it ultimately gets to what I want to get to, which is why we're all still here.
56:57 Speaker 02 Yeah.
56:58 Billy Corgan? You know? In a perfect world, everybody would be alive. All of them. Kurt, all of them. Like, we'd all be still rocking and we'd all be arguing about who put out the last best album. But that's not life.
57:10 Speaker 02 Yeah.
57:10 Billy Corgan? Right? This is not life. So, you know, in my band, we had two drug addicts. So I know that vibe. I know you guys had your struggles. Again, I'm not trying to do the therapy version of it.
57:22 Speaker 02 Not at all.
57:23 Billy Corgan? But, but...
57:26 Billy Corgan? When was the first time in that, you know, you started 89? Was that accurate? Yeah. So from 89 until whenever it went south the first time. When's the first time you're standing there somewhere going, how do I navigate this insanity?
57:43 Speaker 02 Wow. I think it was after doing that 93 tour with the Butthole Surfers. Would you agree? Yeah, yeah. I think that's when Scott kind of took a turn.
57:58 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
57:59 Speaker 02 And was experiencing, I mean, look at, you know, you know, it's like going out on the road is like joining the circus. And you go out there.
58:07 Billy Corgan? And the Butthole Surfers was literally a traveling circus.
58:11 Speaker 02 Gibby was his own circus.
58:12 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah.
58:14 Speaker 02 But Scott hung out with Gibby.
58:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
58:19 Speaker 02 And, you know, I think he was introduced to some things there that maybe tickled his addictive fancy.
58:29 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah.
58:30 Speaker 02 You know?
58:31 Billy Corgan? So that's the first time you're like, uh-oh.
58:33 Speaker 02 Yeah, it was early, it was early on. And I think, believe it or not, and we don't say this a lot, but you know, a few of those records were almost not finished. And it was a sit down with Brendan going, what are we doing, guys? What are we doing here? Are we going to finish this record? I mean, from Purple to...
58:53 Billy Corgan? It must, because I've been there too. It must have just broke your heart. Here you are.
58:57 Speaker 02 It did.
58:58 Billy Corgan? You're rocking. You've got a great band.
59:01 Speaker 02 Yeah.
59:01 Billy Corgan? You've got the world in front of you. And it's like, and we're dealing with this.
59:04 Speaker 02 Your own guy.
59:05 Billy Corgan? I found the hardest thing in dealing with addicts, and my father was an addict as well, is, is there's no logic.
59:13 Speaker 02 No logic.
59:13 Billy Corgan? You, you keep trying to solve a problem logically, and there's no logic.
59:19 Speaker 02 And you drive yourself crazy.
59:20 Billy Corgan? Oh, you drive yourself absolutely crazy. That was the greatest thing about me going to Al-Anon, if you've ever been to Al-Anon, was understanding like, no, this is actually what everybody goes through. This doubting thing of their guilt or why can't I fix them?
59:34 Speaker 02 Yeah.
59:35 Billy Corgan? Why can't I say the magical words?
59:36 Speaker 02 Yeah.
59:37 Billy Corgan? You know, you know, I'm a... Wordsmith, right? Like, why can't I just tell you this magical thing that'll make it all go away?
59:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
59:45 Billy Corgan? And, you know, where Jimmy's addictions were prevalent in the first half of the 90s with the band, to the point where he ended up leaving the band, then Darcy's addictions became part of the story for this. So it was like we sort of relived it with another person.
1:00:02 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:00:02 Billy Corgan? And then when Jimmy came back, then we had the twin version.
1:00:07 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:00:10 Billy Corgan? So I'm uber empathetic to what it feels like to stand there. And you got the record guy over here, you got the manager over here, you got somebody's stupid girlfriend over here.
1:00:21 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:00:22 Billy Corgan? You know, in our case, you know, one of our band members once brought their drug dealer on tour.
1:00:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:00:29 Billy Corgan? The drug dealer was on the tour.
1:00:31 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:00:32 Billy Corgan? Because, well, they-
1:00:33 Speaker 02 Sounds logical.
1:00:34 Billy Corgan? It's logical. It's easier to get the drugs.
1:00:36 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
1:00:37 Billy Corgan? We don't have to go out and score. They can just, they're right here.
1:00:40 Speaker 02 Right.
1:00:41 Billy Corgan? What's to worry about? So let's turn it to this because you guys are one of the great brother duos. You know what I mean? There's only been so many, but you are. You know what I mean? Did that, did that come into play? Like, you're being brothers? You know what I mean? Because like, when it would go on in my band, it's not like, you know, James is not my cousin.
1:01:01 Speaker 02 Right, right, right.
1:01:02 Billy Corgan? You know what I mean?
1:01:03 Speaker 02 Yeah. We had each other's backs, man, for sure. We had each other's backs. And, you know, we can include Eric in that, too.
1:01:10 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:01:11 Speaker 02 It really- We completed records.
1:01:15 Speaker 02 We finished records.
1:01:17 Speaker 03 You know, here we are. Gosh, what's it been? Thirty, how, when did we start doing this? 1989?
1:01:25 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:01:26 Speaker 03 So how long has it been? Thirty-some years, whatever?
1:01:27 Speaker 02 I'm horrible at math.
1:01:29 Speaker 03 But, you know, I don't know the dynamic within your band, but, I mean, Robert and Eric and I, we still, you know, we still have this love and adoration and respect for one another, you know? It's not like, oh, in fact, you know, I don't want to-
1:01:44 Billy Corgan? Well, I don't mean to be as straight as this, but maybe that forged something with you three that you wouldn't have otherwise. Let's look at the good part of the bad part.
1:01:53 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. Maybe.
1:01:55 Billy Corgan? I can speak for my relationship with Jimmy Chamberlain that all those adversities have everything to do with us having such a strong relationship now. You know.
1:02:04 Speaker 02 Yeah, you guys have been through a lot.
1:02:06 Billy Corgan? The ability to forgive, the ability to like, let's just get on to the next song, you know? Let's not pretend.
1:02:12 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:02:12 Billy Corgan? But there's other music to make, you know?
1:02:14 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:02:14 Billy Corgan? And that's what I love about what you guys are doing is the way you solve the problem is just keep playing, keep making music.
1:02:20 Speaker 02 That's important.
1:02:21 Billy Corgan? I'm curious because, um, look, we all know how talented Scott was. And again, you know, like these great singers, the adaptability. So he leaves, there's all that. Now he's got Velvet Revolver. That must have been hard. Um, you tell me, but it must have been hard to watch your guy, and he was your guy, go out and do it with somebody else. You know what I mean?
1:02:46 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:02:47 Billy Corgan? I'm not saying you were rooting against him, but it's gotta be hard because you're thinking, well, he should be here. Did you feel that way or am I imagining that?
1:02:54 Speaker 02 I think at that point I was kinda, he was in a, he was not in a good place.
1:02:59 Billy Corgan? So it was almost like?
1:03:01 Speaker 02 Like?
1:03:01 Billy Corgan? Good, like, I'll take a break.
1:03:03 Speaker 02 Take a break.
1:03:04 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:03:05 Speaker 02 Take a break.
1:03:05 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:03:06 Speaker 02 At that point. I remember, uh, driving down Melrose and he was, he was not in a good place before that. And I remember stopping at a stoplight and seeing what looked like a kid going across the street on a skateboard. And I'm like, that was Scott.
1:03:29 Billy Corgan? Really?
1:03:30 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:03:30 Billy Corgan? Oh, my gosh.
1:03:31 Speaker 02 He was living in some apartment.
1:03:33 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:03:34 Speaker 02 Like off of Melrose and it, it, it got to that point. I was like, that was, that was Scott.
1:03:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:03:40 Speaker 02 Yeah. I know what apartment you're talking about.
1:03:43 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:03:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:03:44 Billy Corgan? I mean, I certainly looked at it like, again, my perspective as an outside person who's interested. It was interesting to me that his talents were applicable in like, let's call it even heavier genre.
1:03:58 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:03:58 Billy Corgan? It's not that you guys aren't heavy, but you're not like riff riff riffy.
1:04:01 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
1:04:02 Billy Corgan? So it was cool to see him make that transition and see this other kind of crowd come forward and kind of start to really celebrate what a great singer he was.
1:04:09 Speaker 02 Yeah. Yeah.
1:04:11 Billy Corgan? That wasn't the worst thing in the world.
1:04:12 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think it was a great opportunity for him.
1:04:15 Billy Corgan? Right.
1:04:15 Speaker 02 And it worked out well for him.
1:04:18 Billy Corgan? So.
1:04:20 Billy Corgan? I know what this feels like, but I want to hear it from you. Okay, you're sitting there, now you're having this meeting. Some years have gone by. Shall we open this door? And do this all over again?
1:04:30 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:04:31 Billy Corgan? What was the? Was that hard for you, or was it you feel like, okay, let's, let's give it another try? Was it positive, or was it like trepidatious, to use the fancy word?
1:04:41 Speaker 02 It was probably, yeah. There was definitely some trepidation, but.
1:04:47 Speaker 02 There was a lot of history there.
1:04:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:04:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, you know, a lot of history, and I think we. Stepped into it lightly.
1:04:54 Billy Corgan? Right.
1:04:54 Speaker 02 Uh, that first day of rehearsal.
1:05:00 Speaker 02 Was that the first day? I know what. That was the first day of rehearsal.
1:05:05 Speaker 02 Yeah, he, he didn't show up the first day of rehearsal. In, in very good, uh. Health.
1:05:12 Billy Corgan? Hmm.
1:05:13 Speaker 02 And we're like, alright, should we pack this up?
1:05:16 Billy Corgan? And we're right back to it, yeah.
1:05:18 Speaker 02 Yeah, and it, and it brought up. I think that, that day was, for me, it was like. It brought up a lot of ghosts. And a lot of things.
1:05:28 Billy Corgan? I'm having anxiety because I know that feeling.
1:05:31 Speaker 02 You know the feeling.
1:05:31 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:05:32 Speaker 02 And I remember just going, you know what, I'm going home.
1:05:35 Billy Corgan? Hmm.
1:05:35 Speaker 02 You know what, I'm going home.
1:05:37 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:05:38 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:05:39 Billy Corgan? But you did put it back together.
1:05:40 Speaker 02 Did put it back together.
1:05:41 Billy Corgan? And it was for, it was saved together for a while.
1:05:43 Speaker 02 It was, it was good for, uh. We did a record, we did a record. Yeah. That was, yeah.
1:05:48 Billy Corgan? Was it also called Just Don't Temple Pilots?
1:05:50 Speaker 02 It was. It was autonomous. Self titled.
1:05:54 Billy Corgan? There's like four just called Stone.
1:05:57 Billy Corgan? I don't know where to go with this, because I'm not interested in the dirt stuff, you know what I mean? It's like, it's not.
1:06:01 Speaker 02 I'll give it to you, baby. If you ask me anything.
1:06:04 Billy Corgan? Yeah?
1:06:05 Speaker 02 Oh, boy.
1:06:06 Billy Corgan? Don't tell me, no, because I, I think. Look, we're, we're all in the clickbait world, right?
1:06:10 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:06:11 Billy Corgan? I'm, I don't give a about the clickbait. To me, it's the fact that you guys are still playing. And.
1:06:18 Billy Corgan? We're talking about these things as useful as to, is to give people some context of why we endure, why we. Carry on, why we persist. You know?
1:06:28 Speaker 02 We love music. Man, we love making music.
1:06:32 Billy Corgan? That's obvious.
1:06:33 Speaker 02 Man, we, you know. Look, for me, you're only as good as those who are around you, right? These guys make me look really good. You know, I love, you know, what Robert brings to the table and Eric and Jeff. I love it.
1:06:49 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:06:50 Speaker 02 You don't really think about that often, but then when you get in rehearsal, because we rehearse, when we do shows and tours, we go over to Eric's garage. And we rehearse in his garage. And, and, but, you know, he's on a little amp and I'm on a little amp and, and just on this little, you know, P A. system and we're kinda, we're not.
1:07:13 Billy Corgan? You're not full volume.
1:07:14 Speaker 02 We're not full volume, but out of that, I can still appreciate, and you, I can appreciate the quality of our friendship and our, and our, and our chemistry.
1:07:29 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:07:30 Speaker 02 And the songs, um, and, and that.
1:07:32 Billy Corgan? Sorry, I didn't remember. How blessed are we to have written some of these songs?
1:07:36 Speaker 02 I have, man. It's amazing.
1:07:38 Billy Corgan? What amazing thing.
1:07:40 Speaker 02 I'm sure you get teary sometimes when you're, when you're rehearsing.
1:07:43 Billy Corgan? It's amazing. You're like, this is pretty cool.
1:07:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, when you guys go into 1979, the place goes nuts, man. It's like, wah. Yeah.
1:07:52 Billy Corgan? My daughter, who's five years old, she'll say to me, Daddy, were you young when you wrote 1979? Were you five years old when you wrote 79? I'm like, almost, yeah.
1:08:01 Speaker 02 That's funny.
1:08:02 Billy Corgan? Is there a message at this point that you want people to understand about your band? Like, what's the, what's the, what's the thing that comes to mind?
1:08:11 Speaker 02 I think we've, my brain doesn't work this way.
1:08:14 Billy Corgan? I know. I love putting you on the spot.
1:08:15 Speaker 02 I know, you, yeah, right. I think we've all.
1:08:18 Billy Corgan? See, that's why you're a good guitar player.
1:08:19 Speaker 02 Right, thank you. I think we've all formed our own version of immortality.
1:08:24 Billy Corgan? Okay.
1:08:24 Speaker 02 Is that safe to say?
1:08:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:08:26 Speaker 02 I think we've all, and I think that.
1:08:28 Speaker 03 That's well said.
1:08:28 Speaker 02 And I think, you know, the songs you've written, the songs we've written, and, and you realize that, you don't always realize that.
1:08:37 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:08:37 Speaker 02 But when you're together as a band, or you're, like I said, rehearsing, or you're playing out, you look out and you simply go, holy man, this is, we, we accomplished something.
1:08:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah, and, and to back you up on that.
1:08:52 Billy Corgan? When you play, I still see you. Like, I still see the same you that I saw in 94 and 98 and 2002.
1:09:01 Speaker 03 Same with you.
1:09:02 Billy Corgan? Oh, well, God bless you for that. I'm not so sure about that, but.
1:09:06 Speaker 03 Oh, man, you.
1:09:07 Billy Corgan? But, but what I'm saying is, is that your joy of playing, I see it. You know what I mean? And I know you was a man, too, that helps, but I mean, I see it.
1:09:15 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:09:16 Billy Corgan? You don't have a fake bone in your body.
1:09:18 Speaker 03 No, no.
1:09:19 Billy Corgan? In fact, you, you had a heart attack onstage and kept playing.
1:09:22 Speaker 03 He did. Oh, my gosh, he did. He gave me a look from across the stage. We were in the middle of Wicked Garden. And he gave me a look like, meet me at the drums. And I walked over and he goes, I think I'm having a heart attack. I'm like, I look at it like 5,000.
1:09:38 Billy Corgan? Do we, do we stop?
1:09:39 Speaker 03 I'm looking at like 5,000 people, I'm like, that's what I said, should we stop? He's like, no, just keep going. The show must go on.
1:09:46 Billy Corgan? Yeah, well, there's something sort of beautiful about wanting to die onstage, you know?
1:09:51 Speaker 03 Well, now when I get onstage, I have a little bit of PTSD that I'm gonna drop dead in front of a crowd of people. Did Robert tell you about our 57 number?
1:10:00 Billy Corgan? Well, I know that your father died.
1:10:03 Speaker 03 57.
1:10:04 Billy Corgan? You almost died at 57.
1:10:06 Speaker 03 I had a double bypass at 57.
1:10:08 Billy Corgan? He knew, he knew about this.
1:10:10 Speaker 03 Quintuple. Quintuple. Quintuple, sorry, I said quadruple, I left one out. All at 57?
1:10:17 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:10:17 Speaker 03 That's the card we were dealt, man.
1:10:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah, well, I'm 57. It just made me realize. I said something, I don't know if you would remember it, but when we toured together, I had this beautiful moment where I was like, wow, these guys got like another 20 years if they want it. Do you feel that?
1:10:41 Speaker 03 I think so, musically maybe.
1:10:43 Speaker 02 Maybe. Hopefully, hopefully health wise.
1:10:48 Billy Corgan? I guess I'm talking just strictly musically.
1:10:50 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
1:10:52 Billy Corgan? Because we're in this weird thing now, we should, I guess we should thank the Rolling Stones. But we're in this weird thing now where people will still want to see us play.
1:11:01 Speaker 02 Crazy.
1:11:01 Billy Corgan? Way late in this game.
1:11:03 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:11:04 Billy Corgan? So if we're on that timeline, we might only be about two thirds of the way through it.
1:11:09 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:11:10 Billy Corgan? Which is hard to understand.
1:11:11 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:11:11 Billy Corgan? Given the adversities that you've experienced, right, and the heartaches.
1:11:18 Billy Corgan? It blows my mind sometimes, you know?
1:11:20 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:11:20 Billy Corgan? I had this epiphany recently where I was working on the new Pumpkins record. And we decided to kind of do a, I tried to recreate the same dynamics that created the early 90s records in the band.
1:11:32 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:11:32 Billy Corgan? I thought it was novel to go back to the same brain space.
1:11:35 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:11:36 Billy Corgan? And I did and I didn't and, and hopefully when you get to hear the record, you'll hear the good and the bad in that, but. I had this moment of like, okay, I'm kind of back here playing in this sandbox one more time and
1:11:49 Billy Corgan? and I'm thinking about my age and my, my children are very young, eight and five, so that's part of the equation.
1:11:54 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:11:55 Billy Corgan? And I had this moment of like,
1:11:59 Billy Corgan? you know, I could actually start over and I still have 20 years of start over.
1:12:03 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:12:04 Billy Corgan? Like I could make a music that I've never made before that I don't know anything about. Kind of like what you're doing with your solo music, it's like, I think it's important for us to remind each other as friends that the public's expectation of who we are or who we were is not as valuable as our own.
1:12:23 Speaker 02 Well said.
1:12:23 Billy Corgan? And I think it's really cool as someone who admires both of you greatly and
1:12:31 Billy Corgan? admires you as men too.
1:12:33 Speaker 02 Back at you, Billy.
1:12:34 Billy Corgan? Thank you.
1:12:34 Speaker 02 Yes.
1:12:36 Billy Corgan? That when I stand there and watch you guys play, I'm like, "These guys got so much more music left in them. That's so [bleep] and cool." "It's awesome." "That should be our story." "Like, if that's our epitaph, right?"
1:12:49 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:12:49 Billy Corgan? "That should be our story."
1:12:50 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:12:50 Billy Corgan? "Like, they rock till the end," you know?
1:12:52 Speaker 02 I'd try and...
1:12:53 Billy Corgan? Yeah, but, but, but you know what? We've, we've all grown up in like, let's call it the baby boomer version, right? You technically qualify as a baby boomer child, right? Latchkey, do you have that stuff? Were you latchkey to kids?
1:13:05 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
1:13:06 Billy Corgan? Right? Okay.
1:13:06 Speaker 02 Yes.
1:13:07 Billy Corgan? We grew up, you know, Gilligan's Island and, you know, television was the, you know, life was television.
1:13:13 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
1:13:13 Billy Corgan? And, you know, and then, you know, we run into, you know, let's call it the 90s version of the record business.
1:13:20 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:13:21 Billy Corgan? Which was too old to be fresh and, and basically, we were on the edge of the dying decade of it, but we didn't know that. Here comes AOL and here comes Napster and all the things that cost us a gazillion dollars.
1:13:33 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:13:34 Billy Corgan? And a lot of people don't take that into account when, when we were being treated bad in the early 2000s about those, some of those dynamics.
1:13:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:13:40 Billy Corgan? We didn't make that second round of Pink Floyd money when they introduced CDs. We lost all that bread.
1:13:46 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:13:47 Billy Corgan? And Gen X doesn't have a lot of statistical numbers to back it up. So even if we're popular with our own generation, there aren't enough people to actually go out and vote.
1:13:55 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:13:55 Billy Corgan? So for us to persist, and we're musical brands, right? For us to persist and be making music, that's, to me, that's the victory, you see? Which is why I wanted to talk about all these things within that context.
1:14:08 Speaker 02 There's so many things that you have to boil down. And isn't that life as you get older and mature? It all boils down and comes down to this little diamond that you have to kind of appreciate.
1:14:19 Billy Corgan? But isn't it crazy that you had it from the beginning, but you didn't know you had it? It's like the Robert Quayle book, Alchemist.
1:14:26 Speaker 02 A lot of sand in there and a lot of dirt and a lot of other stones and then it...
1:14:32 Billy Corgan? If any part of my heart hurts, it's hard, maybe, for people to understand this translation. I hope you understand this translation. If, if, if any part of my heart hurts beyond just the obvious sorrow of us losing people that we loved and admired, your guy Scott being one of them, Chester too.
1:14:53 Billy Corgan? It's this notion that everybody should still be here for the party, like the party's not over.
1:14:58 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:14:59 Billy Corgan? You could argue in many ways, the party's just getting started.
1:15:01 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:15:02 Billy Corgan? And it's again, it's important for us to remind us as Gen Xers to not let even the current social idea of what it means to age gracefully, whatever, to limit our capability.
1:15:15 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:15:15 Billy Corgan? And I think you guys have always led with music, which is your great strength. It's like it's in the riff, like, take it or leave it.
1:15:24 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:15:24 Billy Corgan? We're gonna have a good [__] time.
1:15:26 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:15:27 Billy Corgan? And we're gonna rock hard, you know?
1:15:29 Speaker 03 I think the problem there with everyone that's not here anymore, it never was a party for them.
1:15:34 Billy Corgan? Maybe, maybe.
1:15:36 Speaker 03 I think that's what's been so appealing for both myself and Robert is, you know, I don't know what it's like for you, but you know, we're really within this net, we'll call it what you want, we're really within this net of, you know, people know us for STP. And, you know, if you listen to Lessons Learned or stuff I've done outside, it's really nothing like it.
1:16:06 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:16:07 Speaker 03 And that's what's been so fulfilling to go out and really express ourselves musically that is, you know, with being within this for our whole lives.
1:16:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah. You guys have done a wonderful job, I think, of balancing your responsibilities to, you know, STP worldwide, the brand. But then you're always doing all this cool, I see you got like you, like, you're playing with people like, how'd you, I know you tell me some of these things, I can't remember who, but you've done like all these like, oh yeah, I was playing with so and so and who are some of those people you've been playing with recently, like?
1:16:42 Speaker 03 Oh.
1:16:42 Billy Corgan? You do they're like the coolest, like, no one calls me. Like, I'm jealous again.
1:16:48 Speaker 03 Well, I think it's always been a goal to interact with the people that influenced.
1:16:54 Billy Corgan? Get to the good part, come on.
1:16:55 Speaker 03 Yeah, just different people.
1:16:56 Billy Corgan? Drop some names here, because every time you tell me this stuff, I'm like, that's so cool.
1:17:01 Speaker 03 Yeah, it's just, you know, I played in Hollywood Vampire for a little bit, that was fun, that was fun. You know, we.
1:17:08 Billy Corgan? But I'll see you on stage jamming with like, I don't know.
1:17:12 Speaker 03 Billy Gibbons, Gary Wright, or.
1:17:15 Speaker 02 Yeah, just stuff like that.
1:17:16 Billy Corgan? Yeah, you did stuff with the Dream Weaver, Gary Wright. Did he pass away recently?
1:17:20 Speaker 02 He did.
1:17:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah, God bless him.
1:17:21 Speaker 02 So he was a neighbor of mine. He was kind of like a dad to me.
1:17:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah, what a great artist.
1:17:25 Speaker 02 Oh, God, he was just, you know, he got to hang with the Beatles and he's, you know, it's just interesting to me to listen to the music that I've, that's inspired me and know he was a part of that. You know, the Harry Nilson's version of the Bad Finger song, "Can't live, live without you." He played the piano on that. That's Gary on that and played on.
1:17:51 Billy Corgan? See, that's why, sorry, but that's why I started the show. And that was my pitch to the people I'm doing the show with was, I want to talk to people that I admire.
1:17:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:18:00 Billy Corgan? And talk about stuff that we, I think, we admire as musicians or as artists. Not the public take.
1:18:07 Speaker 02 Right.
1:18:08 Billy Corgan? The public take on somebody like Gary Wright would be like, oh, he had that one great song.
1:18:11 Speaker 02 The Dream Weaver, yeah.
1:18:12 Billy Corgan? Yeah, it's like, no, you don't really get it.
1:18:14 Speaker 02 Right.
1:18:15 Billy Corgan? You don't really get it.
1:18:16 Speaker 02 No, he was deep, he was deep and did a lot of going to India and meditating with George Harrison and very good friends with George and, yeah, just, he was, I miss him. Yeah, I miss him.
1:18:30 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:18:31 Speaker 02 Miss him.
1:18:31 Billy Corgan? So anyway, I wish I had your life, that's what I'm trying to say. Okay, last thing. New STP rock roll record, somewhere in there? It's been a few years now. Am I crazy? It's been like four years.
1:18:48 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:18:49 Billy Corgan? Yeah, maybe.
1:18:50 Speaker 02 Yeah, we'll see, we'll see.
1:18:52 Billy Corgan? What would be your reservation for not doing a record?
1:18:56 Speaker 02 Dean's working on a record right now and I'm, we're both working on our own records right now.
1:19:00 Billy Corgan? Right.
1:19:00 Speaker 02 I think that's.
1:19:01 Billy Corgan? I'm not trying to be crass, but like.
1:19:03 Speaker 02 No, no, no.
1:19:03 Billy Corgan? Because, you know, every time I go into a Pumpkins record, I go, okay, here we go, like I need.
1:19:08 Speaker 02 There's a lot of history there. You could do a Bewitched, just twinkle your nose and it's done.
1:19:14 Billy Corgan? That's why I love the concept of AI. You know what I mean? This idea just like, hey, sad, mournful, some hopeful D7 chords.
1:19:26 Billy Corgan? Forty-two minutes.
1:19:27 Speaker 02 That's funny.
1:19:29 Billy Corgan? You know, sounds like with a dash of plush by STP.
1:19:34 Speaker 02 That's funny, man.
1:19:35 Billy Corgan? Like, okay, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go read my arty book now. But I'm saying, is there a reservation? Let me ask this, because sometimes when I get at the very, it's usually at the beginning of a process of making a new Pumpkins record, there's that voice in me that says, nobody's gonna care. And that's that nagging thing of like, oh, God, do I have to go through this again?
1:19:56 Speaker 02 Are you trying too hard?
1:19:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah, are you trying too hard? Are you trying to, you know, hang on to your youth way too long? Whatever. It's all those inner doubtful voices that artists have about, let's call it the futility of our exercise. Is that, is that in your equation at all? Okay, let me give you one little story. This is, by the way, I'm not trying to talk about myself, I want to encourage you by talking about myself. So when James came back to the band circa 2017, 18, I took James and Jimmy out to lunch and I said, hey, I want to do this sprawling concept record, it'll be a sequel to Machina and Melancholy. I gave him the concept about a guy exiled into space and they basically said no.
1:20:39 Speaker 02 Oh, shoot.
1:20:42 Billy Corgan? It worked out in a way because it would probably be too much to put on the situation with us trying to kind of get our act back together, figuratively. So pandemic, I'm sitting there bored out of my mind. I spent three weeks making a 1965 kind of psychedelic record, which I think you guys would enjoy. Some groovy bass on there. And then I got to the end of that and I was like, hmm, I'm just gonna do the concept record and I'm not gonna ask for permission. So did this record, 33 songs, crazy sprawling concept. I called it a rock opera, knowing that somebody was gonna have a problem with me using the term rock opera, just put it out there. Like, lead with your chin, right?
1:21:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:21:29 Billy Corgan? Since that, our inner dynamic has changed and our outer fortune has changed. I'm not saying it's because of that record. I'm saying it seemed to sort of shift some energy with us. So I guess my encouragement to you is that if you do what you do, you might be surprised. There's something about the commitment to the insanity of the thing that makes no sense that is appealing particularly to young people. It resonates, this is my version, it resonates to them as that's what they're looking for. That's what rebellion feels like. I'm gonna do the thing that makes no sense at all.
1:22:12 Billy Corgan? And as I've told you, not everybody in my group always agrees with my excess, including managers and all that, you know, like why? In 1990, I got pulled aside by a manager at the time, this is before Gish, and he said, "Just write the pretty songs. No one wants to hear your loud nasal rock songs." He said, "You're really good at writing pretty songs and the girls will love it. Just stick to that."
1:22:35 Speaker 03 Wow.
1:22:37 Billy Corgan? Oh yeah. What I'm saying is, you guys are really good at what you do, so just keep doing what you're doing.
1:22:44 Speaker 03 So are you, Billy Corgan.
1:22:45 Billy Corgan? No, but I, you know, I get the pause, but it's something about wading into the deep water, but that's sort of interesting.
1:22:56 Speaker 03 Yeah, we have a lot to be so grateful for, man. Like, we get to do this, this far along, too.
1:23:04 Billy Corgan? But think of the guitar tones, just think of the, think of the tunings.
1:23:08 Speaker 03 I do.
1:23:09 Billy Corgan? I know you do. I know, like you, like me, you lay your head on your pillow, you're like, "I only..." Right?
1:23:15 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:23:16 Billy Corgan? I guess what I'm trying to say, I feel there's this shift going where there's an openness to our musical generation starting to take chances again.
1:23:23 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:23:24 Billy Corgan? People want to see some leadership and like, maybe a little sense of swagger. If we're not pop, we're not pop. We're not shiny, we're not perfect, you know? What is it that they really want from us beyond catalog?
1:23:41 Billy Corgan? Beyond greatest hits, like, what would you have left to offer? The one thing you have left to offer, and I'm saying this to you pointedly, is the one thing you have to offer is you know what actual rebellion looks and feels and smells like because you were there. You saw it both as an observer in the clubs, whether you're watching Black Flag or whatever, right? You were there, like, you saw it. You knew the people, you felt the vibe, right? There's this great quote in Bob Dylan's book Chronicles where he says, "I would go in and work with these producers and they would want Bob Dylan 66, and I would try to give it to them and I just couldn't."
1:24:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:24:14 Billy Corgan? So I sort of finally addressed the existential question for myself. Okay, give me Billy Corgan 1992. Go.
1:24:24 Speaker 02 Go.
1:24:25 Billy Corgan? Fifty-seven-year-old me picks up a guitar and goes, "Okay, I know how to play like that. I could play like that all day. I made that."
1:24:38 Billy Corgan? Appears different.
1:24:39 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:24:39 Billy Corgan? Don't think the same, not doing the same drugs, not chasing the same bad goth girls. Can't recreate the circumstance, but I can certainly put myself back in the moment of discovery.
1:24:50 Speaker 02 Right.
1:24:51 Billy Corgan? For why now, if I was in that same situation with that same riff, I would go right. Why, when I was that age, did I go left?
1:24:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:24:59 Billy Corgan? And the key factor was boredom. A restless sense of boredom. I didn't have a minute to be indulgent, and if I did, I believed in the indulgence.
1:25:10 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:25:10 Billy Corgan? For example, a song you would know from us, Cherbrock.
1:25:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:25:13 Billy Corgan? The intro was one minute long. Who made the video? Kevin Kerslake on a mountain in San Francisco. Of course, the record company comes and goes, "Hey, Cherbrock's five minutes long. Can you guys cut that intro?" And I said, "Go [bleep] yourself."
1:25:29 Billy Corgan? And you know where we got that intro from? We store it from Bitor and the Snow Dog from Rush.
1:25:36 Billy Corgan? And I was like, "No [bleep] way, that intro's [bleep] great." [bleep] yourself. And they go, "Well, MTV has it." I said, "I don't give a [bleep]." Who was that guy that was willing to stand up against the record company MTV and say, "I don't give a [bleep] I like the way my song goes." So try to get back to a space of asymmetrical, "I'm gonna chase excitement." So the one thing I did for myself was I refused to add any vocals or any melodies to any of the songs until all the songs were recorded. Ah. I'd never done that. Wow. So my only information was, sit back on the couch and go, "That track rocks." Or "That track takes me somewhere." Right. Now, now that I believe in the track, now I have to write a vocal and a melody that lives up to this.
1:26:17 Billy Corgan? So where it's difficult for us, I think, is if you listen to a lot of young people's production, because of the way they work within technology, they're doing that restless version of things. Yeah. They're not playing like, "Oh, I can't, the guitar's in E, I can't change the guitar tuning here that's, you know, we think linearly as rock musicians." So it's getting into that uncomfortable space of like mashing things together, putting riffs together that don't belong. It's not to chase something as much to sort of re-approach like, "At what point did I stop using excitement as my guide and start using my intellect or my desire to sound like, I don't know, you know, Shafri in seventy-four, you know, because I like the guitar sound?" Yeah.
1:27:01 Billy Corgan? You start to become more of a master of your domain, but there can be a, there could be a tendency to get too kind of into your own trip. You start losing the tactile thing of like, "I need to make people excited first." Yeah, yeah. You know, it's like the art trip, right? Yeah. Well, here we are. Here we are. Let's not die. Let's not, no. Let's live forever. No. God bless you guys. Thanks. Thank you, Billy. Thank you, Billy. Namaste, San Diego. Namaste.
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