Leslie Iwerks | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan sits down with Oscar-nominated documentary filmmaker Leslie Iwerks, granddaughter of Disney animation pioneer Ub Iwerks, for a fascinating conversation about family legacy, creative ambition, and the stories history almost forgot. Leslie traces her journey from USC film school to becoming one of Hollywood’s most respected documentarians, with credits including The Pixar Story, Industrial Light & Magic, and her latest film, Disneyland Handcrafted. Along the way, Billy and Leslie dig into Ub Iwerks’ indispensable role in creating Mickey Mouse, explore Walt Disney’s visionary drive, Roy Disney’s underrated role as the financial backbone of the company, and the near-impossible feat of building Disneyland in less than a year. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Good news for your toolbox. Black Friday is already here at Lowe's. Get up to three free select power tools with the purchase of a select DeWalt, Craftsman, or Cobalt battery kit. Plus, save up to $120 on select power tools. You got here at a good time. Black Friday deals are on now at Lowe's. In-store and online. Valid through 11/4 while supplies last. Free tools vary based on battery kit purchase and location.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  I love to travel. I love to meet people. I love to interview people. I love to, you know, what other career really allows you to travel the world and meet all sorts of people you'd never get to meet?

• 0:40Billy Corgan?

  Your grandfather was Ub Iwerks. Who started basically Disney Animation.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  Ub always said, you know, anyone can draw a mouse. It's what you do with it that counts.

• 0:50Billy Corgan?

  First thing that comes to mind is it seems so honorable that you wanted to tell his story. I think it's such a beautiful thing.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Without Ub, there would have never been a Mickey. So he literally saved Disney Animation, Ub did.

• 1:03Billy Corgan?

  That's insane.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05Billy Corgan?

  Like, it's truly insane.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:08Billy Corgan?

  Ub Iwerks, thank you so much for being on my show. I so appreciate you being here. A quick resume, because I think it sort of sets up the thing. So you're a very accomplished documentary filmmaker. Is that a fair thing to say, or just filmmaker?

• 1:23Speaker 01

  I'll always take accomplished.

• 1:25Billy Corgan?

  I like that.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  Who wouldn't?

• 1:27Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:29Billy Corgan?

  Just a quick resume on you, and this isn't complete. This is, I'm just cherry picking. Hand Behind the Mouse, the Ub Iwerks story, which is, also involves your family. Recycle Life, the Pixar story. Dirty Oil, Ella Brennan. Industrial Light Magic, Creating the Impossible. Pipe Dream, Citizen Hearst, the Imagineering Story. Superpower, the DC Story. Hundred Years of Warner Brothers, and of course, the latest Disney Handcrafted. That's quite a resume you got going.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  Thanks. It's kept me out of trouble.

• 1:57Billy Corgan?

  Did you, did you, did you, I know you went to film school, but I mean, did you want to be a documentary filmmaker? Cause it seems to me it's a very particular discipline.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, not, not really. I went to film school thinking I'd be doing narrative and um, never took a documentary class in film school at USC, but I um, graduated and I had this burning desire to tell my grandfather's story because the people that were, that worked with him were passing away and, and I had never known him. I was, I mean, I,

• 2:31Billy Corgan?

  Well, he passed, he was like, maybe you were like one year old when he passed away, yeah.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, you know, I thought, well, this will be an opportunity for me to get to know him through other people. And so I ventured to make my own documentary about, about him. So, so.

• 2:45Billy Corgan?

  Was that, that was, was, so real quick, your, your grandfather was of I-Works. Who started basically Disney Animation with Walt.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:53Billy Corgan?

  Going all the way back to Kansas City and all this stuff. So, I mean, he's a true pioneer for people don't know their Disney history.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 3:00Billy Corgan?

  But was, was, sorry, but was Disney involved in the making of the I-Works documentary?

• 3:05Speaker 01

  They funded it.

• 3:06Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So, let me finish what you were saying, cause I, cause I know it was important.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Um, so that was my first documentary and it was a passion project.

• 3:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  And then that was successful enough for Disney to put it up for Academy Award. And um, and then John Lasseter saw it, screened it up at Pixar and said, would you tell our story?

• 3:30Billy Corgan?

  Oh, wow.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  And so that led to the Pixar story and then, then it went from there. It was like,

• 3:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  ILM saw it and said, will you tell the George Lucas story of ILM? And, and then it led to, actually Recycled Life was right after that though. That was about, people living in the largest landfill in Central America in Guatemala City. So that was my second film, uh, that I directed and shot and edited and pretty much did all of it except produce it. And, um, that led to an Oscar nomination and then Pixar Story got Emmy nominated. So I think between the two back to back, it kind of solidified this future path of docs, which I really enjoy doing.

• 4:12Billy Corgan?

  But did you, did you at any point feel like, do I really want to do this? Or this is like my calling? Cause obviously it's working like, just walk me through that a little bit.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  I mean, I think it was both. I, I love to travel. I love to meet people. I love to interview people. I love to, you know, what other career really allows you to travel the world and meet all, all sorts of people you'd never get to meet, right? And interview them in depth. So to me, that's been really fun.

• 4:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  And, you know, do I still want to do narrative? Am I still pursuing narrative? Yes.

• 4:43Billy Corgan?

  I was talking to a documentarian recently involving myself, but you know, I'm watching this person really wrestle with the idea of asking me to come into their life for two years. You know what I mean?

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:56Billy Corgan?

  So I, the question I thought to ask you was, um, do you feel that like when you take on a subject, I mean, you're talking about big subjects, whether it's Pixar or the Imagineering story. I mean, these are big subjects, but lots of moving pieces. Do you kind of question your sanity of whether you want to dive into that ocean? Cause I gotta imagine a film's got to take you at least a couple of years, right?

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's an investment for sure. And you want to know that it's going to be a worthwhile endeavor and it's going to be a compelling story and it's going to have all the elements to an important story to tell that hasn't been told before. So yeah, it's definitely an investment and each one that comes to me or I pursue, if I'm pursuing it, I know I want it, but if it comes to me, I'm.

• 5:41Billy Corgan?

  You must get pitched a lot, I would imagine.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. And not everything's, you know, what I want to do, but a lot of it, you know, it is. So.

• 5:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  It's just juggling the, how much can I handle at once?

• 5:54Billy Corgan?

  What do you think of the modern form of the documentary? I mean, in my mind, the rise at Netflix sort of ushered forth this whole new generation of documentary films, but also this maybe like now you're getting into different takes on how to make a documentary.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Um, I love, I love experimenting with different styles and appreciate everybody that's

• 6:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  telling amazing stories out there.

• 6:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  I mean, it's a cool group of filmmakers in the Academy branch that I'm into.

• 6:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  Just, it's just fun to celebrate each other's work.

• 6:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Have you seen this documentary? I think it's called The Mother of All Lies?

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Have not yet.

• 6:28Billy Corgan?

  It was made by a, um, I think, uh, uh, maybe it was an Moroccan filmmaker. It's very interesting because, uh, in, in her case, she didn't have, there was no archival footage. It was about a massacre that happened in her village, uh, before she was born, but severely affected her family. So in her and her father built this set and through the use of like handmade dolls and the setting of the, what the village looked like at the time. She recreates the emotional narrative of what happened to her family in the village. But she had no, she didn't even have one piece of documentary footage.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  That's cool.

• 7:02Billy Corgan?

  And I thought it was so groundbreaking because, you know, the first thing is a documentary person and I, I've obviously done stuff with my band. It's like, you know, it's like, you're like, I wish we had that moment of you shaking so and so's hand. You know, there's always that moment in any kind of documentary stuff.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:17Billy Corgan?

  Like if only somebody had taken a picture and all she had for the whole film was one photo that somebody sneakily took.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 7:23Billy Corgan?

  Of people, uh, lying dead on the street from the massacre, but that's all she had.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 7:27Billy Corgan?

  And she built this really incredible, beautiful documentary. So I, I think the evolution of the form is interesting to me because as somebody's out there looking at my own situation of a documentary point of view. You know, everybody's got their own take on what the, and you know, with music, as you can imagine, has fallen into this very talking head. Archival footage, talking head, archival footage. Um.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Well, there's so many cool ways to tell stories now with, with, uh, animation and graphics and.

• 7:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Video.

• 7:53Billy Corgan?

  Um.

• 7:55Billy Corgan?

  Do you love the purity of the documentary form? Like what's, what's your personal deeper attraction now that you're in it and you're, you're accomplished in it? You know, like, what keeps you in the game of it?

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Um, I think it's, it's telling stories that haven't been told before and finding new ways to tell them and inspiring audiences.

• 8:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  You know, in new ways.

• 8:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  I don't know if that answers your question enough, but it's, it's really why I do it.

• 8:21Billy Corgan?

  You know, it's, it's, it's, there's the glamour of like, you just had this beautiful documentary come out. We're going to talk about that, but you know, there's glamour up here is the, it's finally dawned and everybody's patting you on the back. But there's those two years where you're sitting in a room, you know, you're not out in the sun, you're, you're working on your thing.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm, you know, involved in a number of docs now and to me, the fun of it is being able to keep finding the story because the story is always changing. And even then you go into a doc and you think, okay, I've got this, I've got the thread, I know the history, sort of. The history is always unfolding with every interview you do.

• 8:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  And so to me, that's, it's fun to, to have a, a, a through line in my head of what the chronology is or what the narrative,

• 9:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  what I think it's going to be, but somebody will always tell you a story you never knew.

• 9:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  That you go, okay, now we're going over here.

• 9:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  And now we're coming back and then we're going over here and this person just said this and, and it's just fun in my mind to build the narrative before it's even on, you know, in the edit bay yet.

• 9:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Cause it's in my head, I'm editing.

• 9:26Billy Corgan?

  So I don't have the patience. That's why I'm, I'm, I'm amazed because I just think it's my supposed to see a Herculean effort to take on somebody's story.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  It's, um, it's, yeah, it is, but it's, it's fun to find it.

• 9:39Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  You know?

• 9:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. It takes trust. It takes trust with you in that subject to,

• 9:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  to say, you know, trust me, I've got your back.

• 9:48Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Um, I'm going to find the most interesting things to document and, um, and ultimately who knows where the story might go, but trust, let's trust the process.

• 9:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So let's talk about Ub, your grandfather.

• 10:05Billy Corgan?

  First thing that comes to mind is it, it seems so honorable that you wanted to tell his story. I think it's such a beautiful thing because as somebody who's like a bit of a Disney file, you know, his name would come up a lot. And invariably I kind of went down my own rabbit hole of, of finding out who he was, but this is back pre-internet days. It was harder to find information. So with a stray book over here, I think at one point I had a LaserDisc that was like a collection of his non-Disney work.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 10:32Billy Corgan?

  Was it, was it, am I assuming too much as thinking it was deeply meaningful for you to tell his story?

• 10:40Speaker 01

  It was very meaningful. I mean, I was one when he passed away. I had grown up hearing about him from my family, reading, reading books about him, doing a book report when I was in elementary school about, you know, somebody that is an, is an underdog story that no one knows about. So that was fun for me. And then I think just, just knowing all that went on that I felt like weren't in the books that I was reading. And the stories I was hearing from the Disney side, I thought, well, there's a whole other story over here that people don't know. And so to me, that was exciting to re, to go back into the family,

• 11:19Speaker 01

  you know, photos and see all these great photos that he took when he was coming out from Kansas City and photos of Walt and teenagers and just, I, I wish that I had known him. I wish that I had been able to interview him.

• 11:32Billy Corgan?

  Well, he's always struck me as an incredible person. And, you know, I think what's cool and, you know, you've lived it from the inside is that, that over time, oftentimes, you know, there's always the saying, you know, to the victor go the spoils and not that Walt Disney wanted to triumph over your grandfather or anybody else, but like Walt became the story.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 11:54Billy Corgan?

  And as you know, Roy Disney is just as big a part of the Disney story as Walt is, but because of, without Roy, there'd be no money and all that type of stuff. And obviously your grandfather's artistic and, and, and innovative abilities is such a huge part of the Disney story. So I think it's cool, but I, you tell me,

• 12:17Billy Corgan?

  were you given free rein to tell his story? Because, you know, I'm not saying it's a grudge, but there would certainly need to be some correction there in the record.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I think what happened was I had considered making this documentary when I was at USC Film School as one of my projects. And I thought, well, wait, let me do it once I graduate and let me see if I can get support. I knew I had to get the support of the studio. So, so basically I got a meeting with Roy Disney, Roy E. Disney, and he, I said, I really want to do this film and. And he said, well, of course, your grandfather was a major, major part of this, the foundation of the studio and his story should be told. And so he went to Michael Eisner at the time and they said, let's do it. So I think it was Roy's trust in me and also he, he was a

• 13:07Speaker 01

  big fan of my grandfather's. I mean, he worked with him and in the process lab when Roy was filming the True Life Adventures.

• 13:16Billy Corgan?

  My kids love those, by the way.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, they great. And so he would go and take that film to the process lab where my grandfather was, you know, dealing with like all sorts of processing effects and things like that. And, you know, he helped develop the technology that got rid of scratches in film. You know, and, and so a lot of that old scratchy footage, you know, would go through this bath and ultimately it would all get cleaned up. And so that's kind of how Roy really worked with my grandfather.

• 13:48Billy Corgan?

  So he had a relationship.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, they had this relationship. He said it was always just like there was magic going on in there. If you watch Hammy Hand the Mouse, he talks about, you know, the, the magic of my works and what he could do. And so that was, that was fun. So Roy supported this film. He supported me in my endeavor to make it. And then, but they said, okay, well, you're, you've never done a doc before for a studio. We'll give you, we'll give you, you know, X amount of money for a 60 minute doc. And I was happy, but I was not happy because I wanted to make a feature length doc. And so what happened was they funded the 60 minute, I did it and they were so impressed by it. They said, well, what did you have in mind for a feature? And I said, well, 30 more minutes

• 14:32Speaker 01

  would get me more time in Kansas City in their early years and just go deeper into everything that it, that it deserves. And so they gave me the same amount of money again to extend it by 30 minutes and put it up for Academy Awards. So that sort of solidified this relationship with the studio who trusted me to make a film. But I think it was always a delicate balance because up to that point, they hadn't really given the proper credit and Roy knew it. Roy even said to me, you know, he said, the studio brushed him under the rug for a long time. And, and, you know, he said on camera, without Ub, there would have never been a Mickey, would never have been a Mickey. So.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  That was like gold, gold in a way of validating Ab's contributions that from the studio itself versus outside historians, right? Yeah. Um, and so Roy was a really big champion and of the film and of me and we, you know, worked on other projects together after that. Um, and, uh, I think today the company has completely, you know, uh, embraced the collaboration and seen it for what it is, which is an artist and a visionary technological genius with Walt

• 15:51Speaker 01

  being the visionary storyteller, showman, uh, you know, just everything that Walt was. Producer. Yeah. Um, you know, just, he was the seed that blossomed, that everything blossomed from. Sure. Um, and so I think that, and then Roy being the financial genius, I mean, the three of them together were so, were so strong and, um, but Ab always said, you know, anyone can draw a mouse. It's what you do with it that counts. And Walt made Mickey famous. Yeah. You know, and so he was always very deferential, self, you know, different, you know, he didn't want a lot of the, he didn't care.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  He was happy to have drawn a mouse, animated the mouse, but he always felt like Walt was able to run with that character in a way that Yeah. He hadn't been able to do it before with Oswald or either, uh, or even Alice because Alice in Cartoon Land, because he didn't own those characters. Yeah. So he knew that he needed to own his own character. So that was great. That was the beginning of everything. Yeah.

• 16:58Speaker 03

  Let me tell you something. I am a Bamba's super fan. I just went through all of my socks, you know, the drawer organization that comes over you in the fall. I got rid of every pair of socks because they were so worn out, so gross. I don't like wearing them, but guess what stayed? My Bamba socks. They're the only ones that made the cut. Also, they have new suede moccasins. They're perfect for fall with cushy soles and sheerling lining and water resistant suede. And their slippers are everything you'd want. For a cozy night in made with the softest, squishiest materials. Then there's Bombas compression sock collection. You know, I love those for my airplane rides. Specialized designs for travel, everyday workout and recovery. There's a fatigue fighting pair for every moment. Marino wool blend pairs to keeping toes warm, sweat wicking,

• 17:40Speaker 03

  sports socks for fall race training and dressy styles for any fall weddings. Bombas makes buttery and breathable underwear that feel like nothing under your clothes. Plus T shirts that feel so soft and fit just right. And the best part about Bombas, for every item you purchase, they donate an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchase equals one donated. Head over to Bombas.com slash audio and use code audio for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B A S dot com slash audio code audio at checkout.

• 18:07Billy Corgan?

  I mean, how can I put this? This, somebody pays attention to this stuff maybe too much, but I think where people get lost is that

• 18:20Billy Corgan?

  Disney as a sort of a, almost like a cultural phenomenon. I don't mean Walt the person, Disney, Disney, the, the world that's been created. I mean, without the Mary Blairs and the, and the, you know, the Mr. Gurr. And you know, there's, there's so many brilliant people in this mix and, and, and the one thing we do know is Walt must've had a magical ability at winding these people up and sending them off in the directions he did. And it's, it's also in your, in your, the handcrafted film about sort of trusting people to go in different directions. And it all sort of kind of arrives at the right point.

• 18:58Speaker 03

  Right.

• 18:59Billy Corgan?

  There's a sense of destiny in that.

• 19:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure.

• 19:01Billy Corgan?

  And I think it's beautiful that now with the work that you've done and, and of course, you know, the, the restoration in many ways of your, of your grandfather's name in the Disney story. So I guess what I'm trying to say is focusing on who drew a mouse. You know what I mean? Is, is, is like, let's call it the public's overly simple version of who gets the credit. But if you really look, the credit's all in plain sight. Even the early Disney stuff that says, you know, your grandfather's name's on the cartoons. It's not like he was being shoved out of the picture, but it gets complicated, of course, because with any kind of growth and I, maybe I'm over pitching you, but you know what I mean? But do you agree with that kind of general assessment? Does that sound sort of reasonably?

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think he was a master at, um, he was a master casting director. He knew how to cast an amazing staff of people, um, artists, craftspeople, storytellers, writers, directors, you know, he knew, um, he could see within somebody that they had, uh, talents that were undeveloped yet, that he could, he could, he could pull that latent talent out of somebody and say, go over here like Blaine Gibson, you know, who was a, an animator and he became Disney's top sculptor for all the animatronic figure, audio animatronic figures. So he was really good at all that, um, you know, but I think at the end of the

• 20:24Speaker 01

  day, it was the Walt Disney studio and it was one man who, who, uh, who was the, the leader of the company and everyone kinda had to kinda get in line behind that, that brand. And that made a lot of sense for Walt to, I mean, Roy to basically say, it's not, it's not the Disney Brothers Studios anymore. It's the Walt Disney, it's the Walt Disney Studio.

• 20:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Cause when I was a kid, um, I was born in 67, we would watch on Sunday at the grandparents' house, The Wonderful World, World of Color. I had no idea that Walt was dead. To us as kids, he was, he was the guy and we didn't even know he wasn't alive.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Wow. It was all reruns.

• 21:04Billy Corgan?

  It was all reruns, but we just, all we knew was he was on there, you know, introducing Davy Crockett or whatever. That's all we knew. So the cult even of personality and even in recent squabbles with the Disney family about using Walt as an animatronic figure. And, you know, it sort of gets into this weird space of like, um, the avatar of Walt versus the real human of Walt versus the innovator of Walt. And then of course, the business practices of Walt. That's a very complicated thing. You've lived in it, but I'm, I'm, I'm a casual observer. One, one interesting thing I found in, um, in poking around in your story is that your, uh, and your Mildred is your grandmother. Uh, is, uh, is they met in Los Angeles? Is that true?

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, in LA.

• 21:48Billy Corgan?

  But they got, they got married here and of course, uh, Walt and Lily and Disney were the, were the, uh, witnesses of the, of the wedding. So I think that that, because oftentimes people overlook the familial ties and yes, it's business and things go on, but that, I think that's at the root of this relationship that continues with you to the Disney world to this day. Is that fair?

• 22:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think they were friends and they would go on, you know, trips to Santa Barbara on weekends and, you know, they had a, they had a friendship in those early years when it was very formative. And I used to hear about these stories and I have the, you know, the, the beautiful glassware and dishware that Walt and Lily gave my grandparents for their wedding and, you know, and bring it out on, on, on special holidays for special guests. But yeah, I mean, I think those were really wonderful times for everybody, you know, when you look back in the history of the Disney company before it got over complicated.

• 22:48Billy Corgan?

  To be, to be fair to all of them, I mean, like, there's no way they could have possibly dreamed it was going to turn into what it turned into.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, certainly we weren't envisioning the parks yet, that's for sure.

• 22:59Billy Corgan?

  I mean, just Disney as a global brand. I mean, just the, the incursion of Disney into the, the world culture.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  It's an incredible lineage story, you know, when you think about, well, we documented in my Imagineering story, you know, so to go from, and I've documented a lot of business stories and I've interviewed a lot of CEOs and to understand what that, what that chronology over a hundred years or so looks like and how you sustain a company over time. It's, it's a, it's a real balancing act and it's, you can't take it for granted. You know, so many businesses come and go, millions and millions and millions over the course of history, but there's really only, you know, a core few that have sustained a hundred plus years.

• 23:45Billy Corgan?

  Do you think that, um, cause you know, there's a lot of criticism of Walt's businesses, business practices, um, not a ton, but there's enough out there. If you talk to the people who don't like the brand or, you know, they don't like the way Walt dealt with the strikes in the forties or I can't remember what it was. But, um, is there a common thread because you have been involved in these big stories, whether it's telling the, you know, the Lucas world and like, is there a common thread? Is it, is, I guess what I'm after is, is the sort of the, the tyrannical or, you know, the, the need to be Machiavellian in the business practices? Is that just inevitable for the brand to move on? Or is there, is there another way to go about it?

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I don't think it's Machiavellian at all. I think it's actually the opposite. I feel like. Um. Good leadership is about surrounding yourself with really strong talent and people that you can listen to and trust. And when that goes awry, that's when things fall apart.

• 24:41Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  You know, and, and, and it's also, you know, what I speak to in the Pixar story, which is it's, it's, you can work really hard for your first success, like they did with Toy Story. But it's the second product syndrome that even Steve Jobs talks about, which is once you get to your second, your second project, your second film, your second computer, that's the real challenge so that you can, you can have a, top the first success, you know, you wanna, and so with, with A Bug's Life, after Toy Story, they were really worried, they were not going to be as successful as Toy Story. And it, they called it the second product syndrome, and yet it was very successful. But it's, it's, once you get to that point,

• 25:27Speaker 01

  you have to sustain it. Like, it's one thing to create Mickey Mouse, but it's, you have to sustain that momentum, and you have to build on it, and you have to write it. And to think that Walt was able to do that with a, with a character based on circles and a squeaky little voice, this little effervescent character that became a global icon, is, is incredible, you know, a hundred years later.

• 25:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Even with a special exemption from Congress at one point.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, nearly a hundred years, it'll be 120, 28, but, or 2027? Anyway,

• 26:01Speaker 01

  I think that it's, it's incredible that the Disney company, speaking of just the Disney company, that it can sustain a character and continue to brand it.

• 26:12Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  And then, and tell stories with it, and, and build characters around it. And why this little mouse, which was, I think, infused with Walt's spirit, and originally my grandfather's zany personality, and his wild sense of animation, and just fun, making things up as they went.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Um, to me, that was the origin story of the Mickey we know and love.

• 26:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  And um, even though he's a little wiry and crazy, which I love that mouse. I love that those early cartoons. And we love Mickey today. He's an everyman. And when the 1930s, he he hit a, he struck a nerve because of the depression. And so everybody wanted a piece of Mickey Mouse. And Walt knew how to merchandise it.

• 26:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  And and sell it to people far and wide. And then it became a global sensation. So that to me is part of that second product syndrome is to be able to, it's one thing to create success, but it's your first product.

• 27:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  But you have to sustain it. And that's the true measure of success.

• 27:15Billy Corgan?

  You you might know this, uh, I feel like I know it, but there's that, there's a moment where, you know, they starts Mickey becomes like a merch phenomenon and some man wrote Walt's letter and said, I think I can do your merchandise better. Do you know that story?

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:29Billy Corgan?

  Said, if you give me 50% of the business, I'll do it.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Mickey Mouse watches.

• 27:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:34Billy Corgan?

  Amazing.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:35Billy Corgan?

  Um, I don't want to skip over Oswald because I want to tell you a little story. So I was in the park one time and they had Oswald shirts, which I thought was cool.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:44Billy Corgan?

  And I and I showed my my son the shirt and he said, what that? And I said, this is, this is the character that I works did before Mickey. And so my son loves Oswald now. He he identified with the story that there was this character before Mickey. So he's got his Oswald shirts.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Long ears. I mean, really Mickey laws, Mickey is Oswald was shorter around her ears.

• 28:06Billy Corgan?

  Oh, no, I got I got that. But I I love telling my son the story because I love that there's this, it's called the true story of the of the story.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 28:19Billy Corgan?

  Can you, can you at least give us a little thumbnail sketch? Because in this early stage that Walt and have this relationship, I I looked up both their birthdays. They were born in the same year, which that was interesting. So you know, that one, one of obviously was older than the other, but but, you know, it's it strikes me, the two men set off on this crazy American journey. They leave their home. They come out here. And obviously out here in 19, whatever, 1919 or something. It was like, it was pretty dusky out here at that point.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Well, Walt came out in 1923.

• 28:51Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  And came out in 1924.

• 28:53Billy Corgan?

  So you got the facts, because.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's why you have D 23, because it's 1923.

• 28:59Billy Corgan?

  Oh, it's because nineteen nineteen is when they met. That's where I'm being confused.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:03Billy Corgan?

  So even then, they met when they were eighteen.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  Nineteen eighteen.

• 29:05Billy Corgan?

  They met when they were, but think about, they were eighteen years old when they met.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:07Billy Corgan?

  Like, who knows what the hell they're gonna do when they're eighteen?

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:10Billy Corgan?

  I mean, even if you have an idea, you don't know what the hell you're doing.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, they were like twenty seven or twenty eight when Mickey was created.

• 29:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So can you at least give us some light on to their, like, their personal relationship? Were they, were they, or, or, because at some point, your, your, your grandfather leaves the Disney World. He comes back, but, but there's that period where he leaves and there's some sense and you tell me, you know, of feeling overlooked or not appreciated, or did they, did they consider themselves as equals? Or did your grandfather see Walt as he's the guy and I gotta kind of figure that out? Like, because, you know, many times in, in business relationships and in the arts, there's the person is like, I'm cool because I'm the, I'm the one who's actually gonna do the work and you go do all that other stuff. You know, you go be the face and wave, but I'll be back here figuring out how to do the next animation process or something. Was it understood their relationship or was it something that evolved?

• 30:02Speaker 01

  Well, I think they had this great relationship all the way through, through their lives. And I think that as anybody changes and wants to improve them, their own selves or strike out on their own and try to do their own thing, just like Walt did. I mean, I think that, I think it's a complicated relationship and I, I can't speak for either one of them, obviously. But all I can know is what I've read and what I've read about in, in interviews and things like that from, from Ub and Walt and also from my grandparents and, or my family stories. But, but I think that the respect was always there. Walt always respected Ub.

• 30:47Speaker 01

  But I think that there came a time, speaking of post Mickey's success, that overnight sensation, even though it wasn't an overnight sensation, it was third film in, but they had been working towards this moment for the last, since nineteen, for the last almost decade, right, to try to get to the success of Mickey Mouse through several other series. And that experimentation era was formative for both of them. They were in a very significant partnership. But I think when Mickey became successful, Walt felt the strain and the stress of pushing that character out there and at a speed in which, and, and quality or not quality, whatever it was, that-

• 31:28Speaker 01

  rattled Ub to the point where he was considered the top animator of his day. He was considered by many in the the top people in the industry, in the animation, in the early animation industry, that he was considered the guy that without a Walt Disney would be nothing. And that was, um, and I think Walt had a strong ego. I think Walt probably in those days had, you know, just figuring himself out like they all were. They were in their late twenties.

• 31:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that's kind of what I was after was like the

• 31:58Speaker 01

  So

• 31:59Billy Corgan?

  the the the relationship between the two men.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Right, so you think you're you're in your late twenties. You have this overnight sensation. Now, what do you do with it? How do you hang on to the reins? And how do you define your own self? And so I think at that point, you know, Walt started taking more of the credit for Mickey and based on what I've read and that it rattled Ub that he wasn't feeling as appreciated. And Ub got an offer with MGM to to form his own animation studio, which was MGM's very first animation studio. So if you were him and not knowing the future of Mickey Mouse, you might also want to take your own path and say, hey, I I want to be my

• 32:40Billy Corgan?

  Cause he left around nineteen thirty.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  He left at nineteen thirty, uh, and, you know, so for better or worse, uh, you know,

• 32:50Billy Corgan?

  But it makes sense. His his leaving makes sense to me from a

• 32:52Speaker 01

  A lot of people did. A lot of a lot of other animators left and they wanted to do their own thing. I mean, that industry at that point was just like, everything was going on. Everyone was clamoring to get the top artists and studios were trying to form their own companies, their own divisions of animation and, um, and that led to, you know, a lot of, uh, early animators like Chuck Jones forming, you know, the Looney Tunes and Warner Brothers. So people were, were all over trying to kind of create their own brand, as was Walt. And Walt was fortunate that he had Roy.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  And that was a big differential because Ub didn't have a Roy and and he he had a guy, but he wasn't, you know, a Roy. And so I think a lot of people, I think Roy is the unsung hero when you really think about the Disney company because Walt, you know, was an amazing visionary and knew what to do. But I think without that financial bedrock and and somebody who can sort of say, let's go this direction, let's make it happen. That's that's hard to do as an artist.

• 34:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  And I think a lot of artists, when they don't have that business side to them, they don't go as far.

• 34:10Billy Corgan?

  Yes, I've I've seen the road littered with many who who are broke now because they didn't make good deals. Um, uh, I did see on a podcast you were on because I did a little research where where somebody floated out the idea you should do a doc on Roy Disney and the building of Disney World. I think that would be fascinating.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 34:29Billy Corgan?

  Because even the compromise of Epcot, Epcot is kind of a fascinating thing.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:32Billy Corgan?

  The Epcot that exists is not very much like what Walt had laid out.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  I think it's hard. I think Epcot was a grand vision. I think it was harder.

• 34:41Billy Corgan?

  Now it's.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  So to really pull off at that point.

• 34:43Billy Corgan?

  Foodie Paradise.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  Right. But, you know, I think it was an amazing vision. I think it was.

• 34:48Billy Corgan?

  I wish I wished it had gotten built. I think that was kind of cool. When, you know, there's a program, he lays out what he wants Epcot to be before he passes away.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:56Billy Corgan?

  And we never really got there.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  It was a cool concept.

• 34:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Um, this is a side question, but because you've because you've you've been in these corridors of power, dealing with these grand documentaries, um, are you is is at least I've found with filmmakers, they tend to have a there's a personal thing that they connect with is is is how power is applied, something that's interesting to you. Does that is that?

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Is how power is applied?

• 35:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, how power is applied, you know, because, uh, whether it's DC or the Warner Brothers, you know, I mean, the story ultimately is like, how do you apply your power? Who do you sign? What movies do you make? What movies don't you make? The the the the the politics within the companies. Is that something that's fascinating to you?

• 35:42Speaker 01

  Well, very much so. I think I'm interested in the convergence between creativity, technology, and innovation. And with that comes.

• 35:51Billy Corgan?

  That's the family branch, you see.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  And I think that power is is is a word that. You know,

• 35:58Billy Corgan?

  It's a loaded word for sure.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  It's a word. Is it ego? Is it, is it wealth? Is it ability to make decisions that, that a lot of people can't?

• 36:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Is it control?

• 36:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  You know, so what is power?

• 36:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Part of the reason I ask is, and this is a personal reflection, but you know, I was put in an interesting position in my life because I had talent at, at writing songs, but I also had a good business sense. So from the very beginning, I had to sort of kind of run the world. But at some point you come into odds with your partners because they don't agree with the, with the way you're making the decisions. But they're also not personally invested in dealing with the day to day business. So there's always this weird tension that exists in my world between, let's call it the business drive, the artistic drive and where they merge and where they, where they don't converge. So, you know, obviously this is a huge part of your family story. Your grandfather leaving Disney, going off on his own, ultimately coming back.

• 36:54Billy Corgan?

  I'm curious, uh, did they have some personal relationship in the time that your grandfather was away from Disney? Or was it till he came back that they kind of made peace? Was it?

• 37:04Speaker 01

  You know, I don't know for sure. I'm, I think that they probably sure had, were in the same circles and events and things like that. Um, and I think it was, you know, probably more apart because Walt had now replaced with a handful of other animators. It took him a whole staff of people to replace one guy.

• 37:26Billy Corgan?

  Somebody could spin that as a, as a, as a, as a bitter, you know, you didn't work and now you got to come back to me. Another person could see it as like, well, they had this really beautiful relationship. They rekindled their artistic partnership. And part of the story that I read was, and I kind of know it cursory, in a cursory way, is that, um, your grandfather said, look, I really am more interested in the technical innovation side of this equation.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:49Billy Corgan?

  And he goes on and becomes a significant contributor to the success of Disney from 1940 on.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:55Billy Corgan?

  So I think that's a cool story, but it's again, it's how do those stories play within the family? That's what fascinates me. It might seem a strange tact, but.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I think he was excited to go, to go back. I think he got burnt out on animation and I think that he, um, was always this genius and.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  You know, innovator, and I think he really enjoyed solving problems. And I think he enjoyed creating and

• 38:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  You know, and, and he and Walt had a very strong relationship for the rest of their lives. And, and, you know, there's many stories of them just talking in the hallway and coming in with ideas and Walt saying, you know, that amazing, you know, I, I always call it like the yin and yang, like when Walt had an idea, Ub would be there to figure it out. And when Ub came up with something, Walt would figure out a use for it.

• 38:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  And so I think that's a gift too, that, that Roy and Walt had their, their dynamic. And then Walt had the Ub dynamic. But, you know, Walt had a lot of people that were amazing collaborators

• 38:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  throughout his life. Not, wasn't just, uh, they just happened to be early on, but, you know,

• 39:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  overall, Ub was a big contributor to, um, the Disney films and the Disney parks and innovations and the cost savings and the

• 39:09Billy Corgan?

  So

• 39:09Speaker 01

  awards.

• 39:10Billy Corgan?

  In your, in your understanding of the story, when does the first sort of like, he really, because there's a quote in, in the, in the Disney handcraft, Disneyland handcrafted, where I think it's Diane Disney, she's talking and she's saying, you know, my whole childhood, my father was talking about this idea of a theme park. But is there a sort of an official year where it's like, it becomes a possible reality?

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Well, I think in the early 50s, when he started experimenting with, you know, the idea of a, of a amusement park across the street.

• 39:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  And, um, and

• 39:44Billy Corgan?

  Did he get turned down? Wasn't that part of the story? I think

• 39:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:47Billy Corgan?

  they turned him down.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  But it also was too small.

• 39:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  You know, proved itself too small. So again, um, you know, it was, he needed a larger, larger space. So, you know,

• 39:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  they searched all over and, and it became the space.

• 40:01Billy Corgan?

  So, um, I, because I, I looked up, because to see your, your grandfather's involvement in, in Disneyland and your father's involvement in Disneyland. And, and most of the things that are cited are sort of on the later side of the equation. So, but obviously the film deals with the, the genesis of Disneyland and the frantic one-year build that goes on. And that's really beautifully done. Um, But is there a personal sort of story from the family side of like, you know, did your grandfather think he was crazy? You know what I mean?

• 40:31Speaker 01

  No, I think he thought this is exciting and he was there to figure it out. I think there was a story about how they met in the hallway and Walt, this was eight, I mean, almost eight months prior to the park opening, apparently, or right around there. And he said, there's a, you know, that was during the time when you had the widescreen format in films and Vista Vision, whatnot.

• 40:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  And Walt said, I'd love to come up with something that was 360, like, so we could just do that and see it all around us. And he said, do you think you could figure that out? We could do it for Tomorrowland by the time it opens. That was eight months away. And this is a totally unproven, uninvented, non-invented project. And so he, he said, give me a couple of days, came back and to Walt and said, I think I got to, would do it. So we figured out the Circa Rama camera system and then not only invented an entire camera system, but a projection system. And they went out and made the film all within eight months.

• 41:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  And that was the beginning of Circa Rama and Circle Vision.

• 41:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. One other thing that's worth asking is, I think, is your father being so young at this juncture of this, the park coming together. Was he around the park when he was a kid? Like before it opened, you know?

• 41:50Speaker 01

  No, he was, he was on 20,000 leagues under the sea.

• 41:54Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  He was in the Bahamas for three months and then came back and was in the camera department. And so he was working on all sorts of camera stuff. He wasn't as directly involved in like, obviously the construction, but he was, he was filming Tour of the West.

• 42:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  As part of that camera group.

• 42:10Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  So he was traveling for that film across the country.

• 42:15Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 42:17Billy Corgan?

  So talk a bit about Disneyland Handcrafted because I saw where you were talking about the decision that you made, if you want to explore that, it's, you know, they had all this archival footage that most of it had never been seen of them making the park. And a lot of it had never been really transferred well. So you've got like high-grade transfers and so footage that had never been seen in color, but it only been seen on the Disneyland TV show and stuff like that. But the decision that you made to really make it a sort of an immersive experience about the park building and you didn't do the classic just talking head and even your resistance to using still photos and stuff, can you talk about that?

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. So when we were doing the imaginary story, we came up on this footage and, well, it was in the archives and we had it transferred, brought to, or, you know, converted to us. And just going through it, it was so cool to see all this, these details of people working. And Mo and Mark, my collaborators, most of you, Mark Catalina, said, well, what if we did something that's just archival? And we can like just sit in it. And, and I, I thought, well, that's really cool. Do we have enough material to sustain a narrative story? And we did a proof of concept, seven minutes or so, and he added sound effects.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  And it was really neat because we added these scenes, you know, like the reels that were there were all over the map, meaning like you would have a shot from February 1954 in one shot on the same reel. And then the next shot would be like something from later that year in a totally different part of the land. And so it was all sporadic. And so we had to literally cut up each reel and put it in bins and chronology and time. And, and figure out, okay, here's the Mark Twain scene of them pulling the Mark Twain, but it's across, you know, 20 different reels. So we had to like really forensically go through each thing and organize it.

• 44:20Speaker 01

  And then once you've found that Mark Twain now has 30 different angles and shots of the same thing.

• 44:25Billy Corgan?

  And then you can cut it.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Now we can build a whole scene. And so that was the magic of what Mo did was to be able to find it, source it, put it together, organize it. And then we've got the support of our brain, what I called our brain trust, which is, you know, Tom Morris and Don Hahn and Tim O'Day and Tony Baxter and Pete, Dr. Jonas Rivera, Becky Klein from the archives. And we ended up, we, they ended up supporting our effort to figure out what was what, you know, where was this? Where was that? And Tony and Tom especially really know the Disney history. So they were able to just go, that shot is actually out of sequence, or it's out of time.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  It's earlier, you know? And so that was a really great support for our edit, for us, who, we had a really good handle on it because we had slates a lot of times to know what year these shots were done. But the, there was a lot of stuff that wasn't slated. And so you have to figure out, okay, what, when was it? And you'd have to look in the background and say, okay, well, what status, what's the status of the castle? Castle is kind of a marking point for us because if it was, you know, really, you know,

• 45:44Speaker 01

  undeveloped, then we knew it was earlier in the year, you know? So we used certain markers in the background as ways to, to, you know, know where things were.

• 45:54Billy Corgan?

  Was there, is, was the intention for shooting the building of Disneyland footage strictly for the Disneyland TV show? Or was it there was some other reason? Or was this like, we should cover this or, because it seems a little scattershot?

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, for everything I, from everything I know, it was from the, for the TV show. But I'm sure Walt wanted documentation just for other things down the road and just to have it.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  But they didn't use so much of this footage, you know, for other things.

• 46:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  And, um, and I think it just, you know, and Tony Baxter really had kind of, um, discovered this footage 20 years ago in the film archives, um, with some of the staff there, Ed Holman, Scott McQueen, others, people like that, that, that knew about it, but there was never any, you know, use for it, or people weren't aware of it, or, you know, what have you. I think Tony put it out on the internet, but it was just this low res file. And what we were able to do was get it all transferred at the highest resolution and then look at each shot and then sequence it together in scenes and create a narrative story with it with the count and out of time, but then also intercutting it with the TV show so that

• 47:11Speaker 01

  you could see that there was this public figure of Walt Disney promoting this park. At the same time, the stress on the ground and the dirt.

• 47:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  Was insane. And so it was that dichotomy of like, hey, everybody, we're putting on a show.

• 47:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  And then the reality is everyone's sweating it at the park.

• 47:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  And, uh, that's, that's kind of the dichotomy that we wanted to.

• 47:33Billy Corgan?

  Well, there's that moment in early in the doc where it's, it's just dirt.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:37Billy Corgan?

  And I think he put like one year before the open.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  10 months. Yeah.

• 47:41Billy Corgan?

  Something like that, 10 months. And you, and you just go, that's insane.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:46Billy Corgan?

  Like it's truly insane.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  It is, especially from today's perspective, but even back then it was insane.

• 47:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So yeah, there we, I mean, especially with today's building codes and everything.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I wish I was around.

• 47:57Billy Corgan?

  But it's a total impossibility in today's world. There's no way. But even just setting that aside, just the idea of building anything in 10 months from the dirt.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:07Billy Corgan?

  To an opening.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:09Billy Corgan?

  It's, it's, it's.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  You can't even do your bathroom now or.

• 48:13Billy Corgan?

  Exactly. So it's just striking when you see it visually. So I think it's a beautiful visual representation of just the madness of the whole.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Right. It was man, man, madness, really.

• 48:22Billy Corgan?

  Um.

• 48:26Billy Corgan?

  Also, can you talk a little bit about, because the footage was all silent and your decision to sort of create a, and what struck me, and maybe you don't make this connection, is, is, you know, your grandfather was so intimately involved with the silly symphony and this idea of merging music and sound. And here you are, all these years later, taking this silent footage and basically building a, not just a musical soundtrack, but a soundtrack of special effect sound, but, you know, steam hammers and to create the virtual immersion into the building of this thing.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  Well, I never really put that together with-

• 49:01Billy Corgan?

  When we said it, it kind of struck me because I thought, that's really interesting, right?

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Well, they did Steamboat Willie, which was the first sound-

• 49:07Billy Corgan?

  That's what I'm saying. I thought, wow, that's kind of funny.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, that they figured out how to do sound to film, to animated film. But this was, all credit goes to Bonnie Wild at Skywalker, you know, and the folks there, the Foley team and everything. I mean, I always knew that Skywalker was the place to go to do this, and I've worked with them before. But, you know, taking an entire 70-plus minute cut, that's complete, overall silent film, and putting every single sound effect to every single thing you see, a tripod getting put down on a platform, or people walking, or shoveling, or cement getting plopped onto the ground. I mean, all of that was just handcrafted.

• 49:49Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  And it was-

• 49:51Billy Corgan?

  It's seamless, because I only know, after I watched the doc, that it was silent.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was funny-

• 49:56Billy Corgan?

  At no point did I think it didn't feel strange.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  Right. And it was very laboriously done, painstakingly done by Bonnie. I mean, she really went to town. And I remember the first time she showed it to me when I went up there, she goes, "I'm kind of nervous, you know, I hope you like it." And she was so demure about it, like, you know, and I thought, "Are you kidding? I'm gonna love it." And I was blown away when I saw it. And I thought, "How in the world did she do this?" You know? And it's, it is like an animated film in a way, that, you know, she works on Pixar movies, so she, an animated film, so she-

• 50:31Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I see.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Knows-

• 50:32Billy Corgan?

  I live in that, yeah.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  You know, it's kind of the same.

• 50:36Billy Corgan?

  I'm fascinated with Disneyland. This is sort of a kind of a sociological experiment, this idea that he has this dream, he builds this theme park. And of course, it's turned into a very robust business with Universal, and, you know, there's theme parks all over the world now, including Disney parks. But this idea that it becomes this almost like-

• 50:55Billy Corgan?

  I read somewhere where many people don't understand about Walt's vision for Disneyland was he wanted you to be in the movie. I saw where an Imagineer talked about that. So I'm just curious for your thoughts as somebody who kind of grew up, you know, around the Disney world, but also the park, you know, this, this idea of Disneyland is this kind of magical place, you know, it's like a, I don't know, it's like a place of transformation or something, but I know not everybody sees it that way, but that's the way I see it.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a, it's, I think the goal is to leave your, for Walt anyway, it was to leave your worries at the gate, come on in and enjoy a whole new world of different lands and different realms that you could experience and be inspired by and learn, learn from and enjoy the characters that you've seen on the TV show, I mean, in the, in the animated films and the TV shows, actually, that you can meet them and you could get a photo with them. And it's this walk through experience that you can walk through the castle and you can live in these worlds. And it was the first immersive theme park, I think, by far.

• 52:01Billy Corgan?

  I mean, yeah, compared to what came before.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Coney Islands and the, you know, I mean, even Knott's Berry Farm, which Walt loved, and he was friends with the owner, you know, the owners, the Knotts. And Knotts was, in a, in a sense, a theme park too, but it, it wasn't based on IP that was known around, around the world, right?

• 52:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  So I think what I've always found fascinating is this idea of vertical integration from a business model standpoint that Walt did. It was taking this IP and then now he can put it into the parks and now people can experience that IP in a completely different way. And I don't like the word IP, but these characters, these beloved characters and stories that people can experience and, and live and breathe. And that is a whole nother way of, of living and breathing.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  These stories.

• 52:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  And and that has that in and of itself was a brilliant business model that hadn't been done before and now lives on all these years later around the world. And now the Imagineers at Disney are completely taking all this, all these brands, all these stories and all these characters that we've loved for decades and now pushing the envelope with the technology and always trying to, you know, be ahead of the technology so that we can experience them in even greater ways.

• 53:20Billy Corgan?

  Since since you made the documentary, do you do you look at Disneyland differently now? I mean, when you go there.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny.

• 53:27Billy Corgan?

  Do you see it differently?

• 53:30Speaker 01

  I I do, actually. I do. I think I was in the thick of this project when I was down there for the 70th anniversary party and I just remember looking at the at Main Street and going, look at what which brick was that? And, you know, this it looks so much, it looks so similar to what it hasn't changed. And I think that nostalgia and that, I think for fans, they they love the fact that so much of this is still.

• 54:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  There. It hasn't been torn down or redone or whatever. It's it's Walt's Disneyland is still intact and hopefully it always will be that his castle, his Main Street, the things that he loved, his rivers of America will always be there because this is this was Walt's DNA.

• 54:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I can never, is it the word kerfuffle? Is that the right word? Do you know that word kerfuffle?

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:23Billy Corgan?

  You know, there's a kerfuffle going on right now because they've decided to change Disney World. They've taken out the river and they're putting in a new cars attraction.

• 54:34Billy Corgan?

  I guess the question I'm after is something along the lines of like,

• 54:40Billy Corgan?

  do you think that the that the the evolution of the park is is a necessity? It's inevitable that the original vision should be left intact? I'm more of a purist, so I like that the park, I like as much of Walt's vision intact as possible.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yeah, it's a tricky one. And I know the Imagineers, you know, have that at the top of their minds all the time with every major change that they do. And I know this one was was not taken lightly. And I know that it's very controversial and a lot of people are upset about it. And a lot of people are like, OK, well, you know, this is what Walt would have done too. If if there's a certain area of the parks that weren't working well. He would change them out, you know?

• 55:19Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  And, and he always did, and he always, the DNA, the blueprint of Disneyland is that well, it never stopped changing as long as imagination is left.

• 55:26Billy Corgan?

  Like Disney say even in the, like, it's never gonna stop.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:29Billy Corgan?

  I think it may be even in the opening speech or something. He says something about it's just always.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  It's always gonna change. So, so that, that in and of itself is a brilliant thing to say because he's, people can't argue with him that

• 55:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  future generations are gonna tear, take, take something out and then, and then change it because he's built that into the constitution of Disneyland, you know? And, and so that is what I think gives the latitude for many,

• 55:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  for many changes throughout the world. And it, it's just the way it is.

• 55:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, he changed out Tomorrowland, you know? While he was still alive. And, um, there's a lot of things that went away after that first opening day. In the next five, 10 years, he was

• 56:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  changing things out, tearing stuff out. I'm sure people were upset then too.

• 56:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:19Billy Corgan?

  If you can step aside from your, your, your family connection, do you think credit in, in, in a story like this is important? Or do you think at the end of the day, it's really just about that it happened? Does that make sense? I know it's a weird way to ask the question.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  What, in what way? What, what happened?

• 56:34Billy Corgan?

  Well, like, is the, is it important, like, is it as simple as people should know who drew Mickey Mouse? Or who designed this? Or, you know, because you've also told the Imagineer stories. Is, is it important that we know who was in the band making the song?

• 56:48Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 56:49Billy Corgan?

  Where most people focus on the lead singer, you know what I mean?

• 56:51Speaker 01

  I think it's important to always give credit where credit is due.

• 56:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  And I think, um, that is something I feel the Disney company is doing more and more now. And, um, but I think that that's important.

• 57:04Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 57:05Speaker 01

  Um, because it's not just one person. There might be one. Main leader, but that one leader is not strong without his, his band.

• 57:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because there's this thing that happened after Walt died where they, you know, they would have meetings and they would be literally sitting there saying, what would Walt do?

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:21Billy Corgan?

  And the kind of company went to this rudderless forum for a while.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:26Billy Corgan?

  And I think that gets to the heart of why there's even a kerfuffle over the removing of the Rivers of America. At Disney World, because it's like, it's, it gets into the idea of like, well, now are you erasing Walt from the parks? And so that's why I guess I'm asking the, the, the credit question more in the broader question of like, is, is, is, are the people who built it, does their say still matter? Or is it, is it understood that it's an evolving thing because it's ultimately a business thing? So.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, the people that built it are no longer around.

• 57:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  So they wouldn't have anything to say, but I'm sure that they would, I don't know, I can't speak for other people. Again, it's a controversial move that wasn't taken lightly and, and I think that.

• 58:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I'm not asking in a way in the contrary, it's just, you know, I'm not interested in that. It's really not the premise of my show.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:13Billy Corgan?

  It's more the idea of, um, I guess, because you know, like I, like I, I told you, uh, I think it's talked a little bit before we started rolling cameras. It's like, I found myself being fascinated with Disney. Disney was born, well, I should say it the other way around. I was born about a mile away from where Walt was born. And Walt's time as, as youth in Chicago was not very well known and it, it's mostly about when he moved to Kansas and all that. But, you know, I always found Disney fascinating. I went to Disneyland the first time in 1974 and he's always been kind of this kind of a, I guess, I guess the most modern comparison would be like an Elon Musk figure where it's like,

• 58:55Billy Corgan?

  even if you don't agree with them, they, they become a visionary, maybe visionary figure. I always, as an artist resonated with Walt as a visionary figure, even though I didn't love everything Walt touched. I'm not one of those. It's more of like the idea that you can execute a dream into vision.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would never compare Walt Disney to Elon Musk in any way as far as like, uh, I think, I would compare Walt to, um, Steve Jobs.

• 59:21Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  Because of just more of that, um, positive ideals and how you can change the world in a better way. And, um,

• 59:32Speaker 01

  And I think what Walt envisioned was that the world could be a happier place and that he wanted to create happiness and that he can improve humanity through all the things that he did and he did and I think Steve Jobs did as well.

• 59:49Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  And so, you know, I think his idea for everything visionary, you know, everything that he did.

• 59:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  To me, when you look back on and you think, what CEO in history has created more happiness than Walt Disney? I mean, you answer that.

• 1:00:10Billy Corgan?

  I mean.

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:00:11Billy Corgan?

  He wins, I think.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:13Billy Corgan?

  That's what I'm saying. For me, as an artist, I see him as a visionary figure. And then I want to study the things he had a hand in because I want to understand how you execute that dream into reality. Because ultimately, if you're an artist, you have to navigate somebody's idea of what success is, somebody's idea of financing is, you know, there's always this uneasy relationship between artists and kings, you know?

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:38Billy Corgan?

  And in your own family story with your grandfather, you know, he was part of the origination of this incredible dream, left, came back and then, you know, had a significant contribution. So, you know, part of that is, you know, that that relationship between, and that's why I ask about credit, is like, is it important that people know your grandfather's name, including and your father's name, because they're part of this story? Or is it ultimately just about if people are happy? And I know it's a bit of a dreamy question.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  I think it's both. I mean, I think, you know, when you work at the company, you're part of a whole tribe of people who are doing this or align to create the thing that is what Disney is, which is to create happiness and to create and to innovate and to to come up with new stories. And so you are part of a global entertainment company and you are important in that world.

• 1:01:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  And there are a lot of people that get more credit than others, but the reality is, is that it is, I think it's important for both. I think it's important for up to get credit. I think it's important for a lot of people at Pixar to get credit and

• 1:01:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  You know.

• 1:01:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  I think.

• 1:01:51Billy Corgan?

  It's my own personal fascination.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:53Billy Corgan?

  I apologize. I'm not trying to put anything on you.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  No, I think it's important to get credit. And I also think it's important that it's also you're you are part of a a group.

• 1:02:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  Your team. It's a team effort.

• 1:02:04Billy Corgan?

  That's why I said I'm the nerd who, when I first started seeing your grandfather's name and a lot of Disney stuff, I thought, well, I need to know his story too. So I took it upon myself to learn, you know, let's call it cursory knowledge, but learn about, you know, his contribution. And I started to realize there's this whole phalanx of people around Walt. That, um, you know, it happens a lot with rock and roll, you know, what do they say? Success has many masters and failure has but one. So last thing I want to ask you is because, you know, growing up in Chicago, a place like Disneyland, a place like the Disney Studios, it's like it it is magical and I believe it's magical, but it's also the idea of like, wow, what it must have been like to be a kid wandering around.

• 1:02:44Billy Corgan?

  You know, in the Disney studio, but you have those experiences. You were actually on movie sets and you saw things happening. And so if you could just talk about it, it's just to me, it's fascinating.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think whenever you have a world that you're, you know, allowed to immerse yourself into that was that was a wake up for me is to the behind the scenes of how things are done.

• 1:03:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  And it was, that was the magic for me was being behind the scenes. And then going to the park behind the scenes, going to the studio a lot behind the scenes and and just kind of having that that perspective.

• 1:03:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:17Speaker 01

  Was, I think, important for me in my genesis as a filmmaker and going to film school and wanting to do that. And my dad was very much a teacher for me. He wanted to teach me about cameras and show me how cameras worked. And he was an inventor and he was developing, you know, large format camera systems and all sorts of different things. And so I would sit over his shoulder and say, tell me what you're up to. And I'd look at his CAD drawings and he would explain it in great detail. And I would be like, I have no idea what you're talking about.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  But, um, but yeah, I mean, he, he inspired me in many ways artistically and creatively.

• 1:03:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  And, and really encouraged that.

• 1:03:58Billy Corgan?

  So the last thing I want to ask you is, is what's your dream project? Do you have a dream project?

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Oh, I wish I could tell you.

• 1:04:04Billy Corgan?

  Okay, then don't tell me.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  I have several that I'm working on now.

• 1:04:07Billy Corgan?

  Well.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  And when they're ready to be announced.

• 1:04:09Billy Corgan?

  All right, fantastic.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  I'll let you know.

• 1:04:10Billy Corgan?

  I wish you a lot of luck. Thank you.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Bless you. Thanks for having me.

• 1:04:13Billy Corgan?

  Thank you.