Pod Insights The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan Simon Kirke | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan About this episode Billy Corgan sits down with Rock & Roll Hall of Famer Simon Kirke (Free, Bad Company) for a sharp, funny, and revealing dive into 50 years of rock majesty. Simon traces his journey from growing up in poverty to the lightning-bolt moment drums grabbed him, the fateful coin flip that led him to Paul Kossoff and the creation of “All Right Now,” and then to forming Bad Company with Paul Rodgers and Mick Ralphs. Together, they dive into the grooves of Stax vs. Motown, the genius of Al Jackson Jr., Ringo Starr, and Charlie Watts, and the art of serving the song rather than showing off chops. Along the way, Simon shares stories about Jimmy Page, John Bonham, Steve Marriott, and Queen. It’s a masterclass in rock history and rhythm.
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Transcript 13,986 words · 3 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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0:30 Speaker 01 So we got a TV, a black-and-white TV. And the very first thing that I saw, when the thing, you turn it on and that little white dot opened up, was this thing called, a program called All That Jazz. And it featured big bands, all in black and white. So I'm riveted by this
0:51 Speaker 01 and the drummer and the lights were shining off the cymbals. And then he did
0:56 Speaker 01 He said, "Well, it's funny you should say that because he's getting a sack tonight." This is last night. And we are auditioning tomorrow at this same place. So I tossed a coin. I did, I swear to God. We came offstage to the sound of our own footsteps.
1:12 Billy Corgan? Lot of space in that band.
1:14 Speaker 01 A lot of space, a lot of hash. We smoked a lot of hash.
1:18 Billy Corgan? Congratulations, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
1:20 Speaker 01 Thank you.
1:20 Billy Corgan? Well deserved.
1:21 Speaker 01 Thank you.
1:23 Billy Corgan? Mr. Simon Kirk.
1:25 Speaker 01 Billy Colvin.
1:26 Billy Corgan? Thank you for being here. What's the best drummer joke you ever heard?
1:32 Speaker 01 Oh, it's kind of long, but you know, it's worth it.
1:36 Billy Corgan? We have time.
1:36 Speaker 01 Well, it's worth it. So there's a drummer sitting in the rehearsal room, waiting for the others in the band. And it goes on, and no one's arrived. He's sort of playing, practicing. And after about 35 minutes, it's this and he throws down his sticks. He said, "I'm fed up with being a drummer, waiting for the others." So he rushes down to the mall and goes into the the music store. And he goes up to the counter, he says, I want I wanna be a guitarist like that bloke from Foo Fighters. I want a custom gold Les Paul gold top. I want diamond encrusted picks and the best leather strap and the best strings. And the guy at the counter says, you're a drummer, aren't you?
2:21 Speaker 01 He says, why? Is it because I'm doing this on the counter? He says, no, no, um, this is the music store is next door. This is a Dunkin Donuts.
2:35 Speaker 01 Ta-da.
2:37 Billy Corgan? We'll we'll overdub the the cymbal craft. All right. In your illustrious musical life, I need to start here.
2:44 Speaker 01 Hmm.
2:44 Billy Corgan? Tell me about Mr. Lane.
2:46 Speaker 01 Oh, my lord.
2:47 Billy Corgan? Mr. Lane.
2:48 Speaker 01 Wow, what a great question. Mr. Lane was a bus driver in my my high school when I was brought up on the border of Wales. And our school was about six miles from where I lived in the country. And this bus driver, after about a year, I was about fourteen. And as I was getting off the bus, he said, oh, I want a word with you. I thought, oh, what have I done? Caught me smoking in the back or whatever. He says, I hear you play drums. I said, well, I do, yeah. And he said, well, I have, this is before disco. But he had a stack of forty fives, a couple of turntables, and he used to go around all the village halls playing, you know, the songs of the day.
3:31 Speaker 01 And he said, I think it would be a good idea if you brought your little drum kit and played alongside.
3:37 Billy Corgan? Amazing.
3:37 Speaker 01 And I was like, whoa, well, I'll have to ask my parents. And they agreed as long as it didn't affect my homework. And I did that for about two and a half years, Billy.
3:47 Billy Corgan? Wow.
3:47 Speaker 01 And that's where I've got what I consider to be a pretty good sense of time. Because in one minute, you'd be playing Can't Buy Me Love by The Beatles, and Baby Love by The Supremes, and then Waltz.
3:59 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
3:59 Speaker 01 With Jim Reeves, He'll Have To Go. And then a velita, which is, you know, some kind of weird tuba pumping umpa umpa. So I did that for two hours a night for nearly two years.
4:14 Billy Corgan? It seems, I mean, maybe it's a stretch, but you tell me, but it seems like it's so in the foundational root of your playing, you know, because the great, and I mean, this is the ultimate compliment, the great pocket drummers, they have such a love of rhythm. They don't necessarily have a love of the drums. They have a love of rhythm and it's shown up in their playing.
4:38 Speaker 01 That's a good distinction. Yeah.
4:40 Billy Corgan? Well, I think it's important because people get lost on what drummers are good at. Most of the popular records historically are played by guys who are really great rhythm players. They may not be the most flashy chop guys, but they've got the backbeat that makes the kids want to dance to sort of paraphrase.
5:02 Speaker 01 Well, that brings me to the, the three biggest influences in my career were Al Jackson Jr., the number one from the Stax band, Booker T. and the MGs. Of course, Ringo, who I had the pleasure with touring alongside in the All-Star band, and Charlie Watts, who was not flashy at all. He says, I'm not good enough to be flash.
5:24 Billy Corgan? Didn't care about any of that.
5:26 Speaker 01 You know, he didn't. He played that jazz grip like Stewart, like Copland.
5:29 Billy Corgan? And the weird, always lifting.
5:30 Speaker 01 And the, you know, weird mechanical, but he had this beautiful backbeat and he just, those three guys laid down a rhythmic foundation. And I like the distinction between the rhythm and actual, you know.
5:44 Billy Corgan? Yeah. I had a question about Al Jackson. So you, no, but it's fine because, because Stax in the American canon is, is in a way underappreciated because Motown gets all the glossy, glossy love. But musicians are very aware of how important Stax is. And I think it's interesting because a lot of guys from your generation, they were attracted to Motown. Obviously the Beatles were huge on Motown. But a lot of the guys who end up playing like heavy blues. They tended to be more Stax guys.
6:20 Speaker 01 Correct.
6:20 Billy Corgan? Can you, can you speak on that a bit?
6:22 Speaker 01 Well, I think the, the difference between Motown and Stax is that Motown had a huge roster of artists and they were a little more flamboyant. I mean, they had that wonderful rhythm section, James Jamison on bass, Benny Benjamin. But they had a much bigger roster.
6:43 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
6:43 Speaker 01 They used strings, they used flutes, whereas Stax was a bit more muscular.
6:48 Billy Corgan? Always.
6:48 Speaker 01 You know, with that wonderful Al Jackson. And they had maybe a handful, Otis, Salmon Dave, Wilson Pickett. You know, um, so they never really made the inroads, certainly into, um, England and Europe. That Motown did.
7:05 Billy Corgan? Oh, I see.
7:05 Speaker 01 You know.
7:06 Billy Corgan? So was it like if you were a kid listening around time, Stax was a little bit more of a secret?
7:11 Speaker 01 Stax, when I first heard Otis Redding, it was Dock of the Bay and it was the week.
7:16 Billy Corgan? But he'd already died, right?
7:17 Speaker 01 He'd already died. And Steve Cropper said the most, the toughest thing it was for him was to mix Dock of the Bay the week after Otis had passed. But I was in, just finishing high school, I was 18, so it would be 1967, 60. And I heard a sit in the morning sun. I thought, oh, that's nice. And I only heard that sort of side stick. It didn't really, until Al started branching out into the snare and the full thing. Whoa, that's great. But then after that, there was a bit of a lull until Midnight Hour came in, Wilson Pickett.
7:51 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
7:52 Speaker 01 And I heard that backbeat for the first time and went, whoa. But at the same time, Motown was coming up with Marvin Gaye and the Supremes, um, Smokey Robinson, The Miracles, and they started kind of overtaking. They were more pop.
8:08 Billy Corgan? Right.
8:08 Speaker 01 I guess that's it. They were more pop than Stax.
8:11 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
8:11 Speaker 01 But every time, every time, before I went on to, to play on stage, I would put on the best of Otis Redding and Salmon Dale. Lovely.
8:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah. It's interesting because, uh, my father was a musician, uh, never really had any success, but. One of the bands that he had for a while, the drummer was one of Wilson Pickett's touring drummers.
8:33 Speaker 01 Oh, okay.
8:34 Billy Corgan? A southern drummer. And so when I was five years old, I go down and listen to him play in the basement. And this guy had that, that heavy foot backbeat thing.
8:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
8:42 Billy Corgan? So I was always conscious of that music because my father loved that music. So connecting the dots with you on Al Jackson, it made a lot of sense because not a lot of guys know how to play that. That I don't even, it's even like, there's the English version of the shuffle, but there's the American version of the shuffle. So you know what I'm talking about, right?
9:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, very good. Well, Mick Fleetwood.
9:02 Billy Corgan? Because you think, because like the English version of the shuffle to me is Kurt, I can't think of his name, the drummer for Your Eye Heap.
9:09 Speaker 01 Oh, Lee Kerslake.
9:11 Billy Corgan? It's more of a rock lead.
9:13 Speaker 01 It's like chord notes, but like can't get enough.
9:17 Billy Corgan? But your version is a little bit more sax, right?
9:20 Speaker 01 Sonny Freeman was BB King's drummer.
9:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
9:23 Speaker 01 And me and Mick Fleetwood, who's a good friend of mine, agree that Sonny was the king of the shuffle. And with Sonny, everything was, including the left hand and the bass drum, not chord notes on the bass drum.
9:36 Billy Corgan? There's that groove though.
9:37 Speaker 01 The whole thing, you know?
9:38 Billy Corgan? There's that groove though.
9:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:39 Billy Corgan? Because that's, it's interesting to me how English musicians interpreted American music and American musicians interpreted English music.
9:47 Speaker 01 Well, you gave us Wilson Pickett and we gave you Benny Hill.
9:52 Billy Corgan? Is that a fair trade? Maybe Benny Hill, his own genius though.
9:55 Speaker 01 He is his own genius, yeah.
9:56 Billy Corgan? I'm curious, because I was doing my poke around on your, on your life. What did your parents do?
10:02 Speaker 01 They were, my mom was a stay at home housewife who had an amazing record collection. I won't go too far into it.
10:11 Billy Corgan? No, tell me. I love this type of stuff.
10:13 Speaker 01 And she was a bit of a mystery, my mom, because number one, she was illegitimate.
10:17 Billy Corgan? Okay.
10:17 Speaker 01 Which back in the twenties, I mean, the nineteen twenties was huge.
10:21 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
10:21 Speaker 01 So she grew up with this kind of stigma and she, I didn't know until she passed away. And my older brother told me, you know, mom was a really good pianist. She's got to be kidding me. She apparently played real beautiful. And, and she had this amazing record collection, which she amassed over her teenage years and twenties, which she had to give up when she moved to the country. Um, where we lived very primitively. We had no electricity, no running water, you know, we,
10:54 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
10:54 Speaker 01 It was great.
10:55 Billy Corgan? So what did your dad, your dad do?
10:56 Speaker 01 Dad was a bus driver.
10:57 Billy Corgan? Okay.
10:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, he was a bit of a dark horse, my dad, but um, yeah, and he was a bit of a Philistine. He didn't like music. He wrote poetry and I found a book of his poems years ago, which kind of moved me to tears.
11:11 Billy Corgan? Ah.
11:12 Speaker 01 Cause he was a bit of a closet, you know, poet laureate. I was amazed. Dad, you wrote this? Yeah.
11:19 Billy Corgan? Um, so because you were talking about growing up in this, you know, in a form of poverty, what, what happened that changed? Cause at some point, you know, you start to become aware of mass media.
11:30 Speaker 01 Good question.
11:31 Billy Corgan? You know, the radio, the television, that, did something change economically in the family or?
11:36 Speaker 01 Electricity.
11:39 Billy Corgan? No, but I mean, did your dad get a better gig or?
11:42 Speaker 01 Well, we got what's called a council house, which is a state owned dwelling and you put, you get, you know, you go on the list. And we, we moved from this cottage up on a hill in the country with no electricity or running water. And we finally got the news that we'd been accepted into this state owned house, which had electricity. And within a month, and I'll never forget mum scraping the wall and clicking the light switch and the light went on. She almost burst into tears. So we got a TV, a black and white TV. And the very first thing that I saw, when, when the thing, you turn it on and that little white dot opened up, was this thing called, a program called All That Jazz.
12:27 Billy Corgan? Okay.
12:27 Speaker 01 It featured big bands.
12:29 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
12:29 Speaker 01 All in black and white. So I'm riveted by this.
12:35 Speaker 01 And the drummer and the lights were shining off the cymbals and then he did.
12:41 Speaker 01 And I'm like, me sideways. And that, that was it. That was a lightning bolt. Sorry for my French, but this is a podcast. And I'm getting all wound up. But that was the lightning bolt where I went, that's what I want to be.
12:55 Billy Corgan? And you were how old when this lightning bolt?
12:56 Speaker 01 Thirteen.
12:57 Billy Corgan? It's funny. For me, it was fourteen.
12:58 Speaker 01 Was it?
12:59 Billy Corgan? Yeah, same. I saw a guy playing the guitar. I saw, sorry, didn't mean to.
13:03 Speaker 01 No, no, no.
13:03 Billy Corgan? I saw a guy playing the guitar and I thought.
13:05 Speaker 01 Isn't it funny?
13:06 Billy Corgan? Yeah. That was it.
13:08 Speaker 01 Wow. Cause I saw the trombone and the saxophone, eh. And the sticks and of course it was like.
13:15 Billy Corgan? Well, you intuitively knew the drummers get all the girls.
13:17 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:19 Billy Corgan? How'd you?
13:20 Speaker 01 I have to interject.
13:21 Billy Corgan? Please.
13:22 Speaker 01 That I have to thank this radio station that was actually set up for the GIs in Europe, who were stationed after World War Two.
13:31 Billy Corgan? Was this radio for Europe?
13:33 Speaker 01 No, Luxembourg, Radio Luxembourg, two oh eight. And it was in this tiny country sandwiched between France and Belgium called Luxembourg, about the size of this studio.
13:43 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
13:43 Speaker 01 But they had this amazing station that played stacks and tamale and blues, catering mainly to the black troops. Yeah, in Germany and France. And, and so I went out to the hedgerows and I bought, I cut a pair of sticks which is about that big. I had no idea how long sticks were, sixteen inches, you probably know by now. So I have these little things and I put a couple of books on my bed and I had a little transistor radio with an earpiece and I tune into, you know, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome. And suddenly you'd hear.
14:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
14:22 Speaker 01 You know, and I play along on my tins and books.
14:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah. That's it.
14:27 Speaker 01 And that was my education.
14:28 Billy Corgan? How'd you float down to London at some point?
14:31 Speaker 01 Good question. Well, the, the big stepping stone for me was I wanted to leave school early and being a parent now myself, I know that it was a tough decision for my parents to say, no, you're not going to leave at sixteen, you're going to leave at eighteen. Because there are two grades of exams in high school. There's O levels, it's called ordinary levels, which are, yeah, not bad. And there's advanced level, A levels. And if you get two or three of those, you can get into a good college.
15:04 Billy Corgan? Right.
15:05 Speaker 01 So I wanted to leave when I got my O levels and go down to London. It's no, no, no, no, no. Because if it all fails and you come back with a bunch of O levels.
15:13 Billy Corgan? You got nothing.
15:14 Speaker 01 You'll get into technical schools and so they made me stay the extra two years, which I did. And when at eighteen, I said, right, I want to go to London and they said, okay, you've got two years. You can still go to college at twenty if if it all fails.
15:29 Billy Corgan? Okay, so they supported the decision.
15:30 Speaker 01 They well, my dad didn't, but my mum did because it was the musician in her that go on, give it a shot. Because the two saddest words, two of the saddest words are if only.
15:44 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
15:44 Speaker 01 And I wanted to give it a shot. So I went down to London. And this was at the height of the blues boom.
15:50 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
15:50 Speaker 01 In in England, where, you know, Albert King and Bebe and Freddie, Josh White.
15:55 Billy Corgan? Wolf was coming over, yeah.
15:57 Speaker 01 They couldn't get arrested in this country, but they'd go to Europe in these package tours.
16:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
16:02 Speaker 01 And they'd sell out the album.
16:03 Billy Corgan? They also and also was they were being treated well.
16:06 Speaker 01 They were.
16:07 Billy Corgan? They were shocked. I mean, these great musicians, which are all legends now, they couldn't believe how well they were treated in Europe and the UK. Where in America, they were treated like bugs.
16:16 Speaker 01 And then the the Stax tour came in sixty seven, I believe, or sixty.
16:20 Billy Corgan? I interviewed Sam of Sam and Dave, who recently passed away.
16:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:23 Billy Corgan? We talked about that tour.
16:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
16:25 Speaker 01 Oh, I never saw it, but wow.
16:27 Billy Corgan? There's video, I think, of it.
16:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:29 Billy Corgan? I know there's a live record of it.
16:31 Speaker 01 Well, Otis said, never put me on after Sam and Dave again. I was. Because they were so.
16:37 Billy Corgan? At least so.
16:38 Speaker 01 That they were something else. Yeah, yeah.
16:40 Billy Corgan? Right, so so you float down to you float down to London.
16:43 Speaker 01 I went down to London and I I had two years, so the clock was ticking. And I would answer ads in the Melody Maker, which is the primo.
16:53 Billy Corgan? Sure.
16:53 Speaker 01 Musical newspaper in England at the time and drummer wanted la la la. At the same time, I'm doing car washing and uh um construction and working on building sites, construction site. And I answered several auditions and I never got in any of them.
17:12 Billy Corgan? Really?
17:12 Speaker 01 No, no, except for one. And it was a toss up between me and this other drummer, who was the son of the manager. And the band was called Love Affair.
17:21 Billy Corgan? Okay.
17:21 Speaker 01 Which was this pop band that was had quite a big success. So I was really disappointed when they phoned me and said, sorry, Simon, you're not in. Um, the the manager's son is in. But anyway, so cut to the twenty third month.
17:38 Speaker 01 Of my twenty four allotted months and I'm thinking it ain't gonna happen.
17:42 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
17:42 Speaker 01 Ah, fuck it.
17:43 Billy Corgan? That's a long time.
17:44 Speaker 01 It's a long time.
17:45 Billy Corgan? And when you're young and musical time, that's a long.
17:47 Speaker 01 Yeah, cuz I knew that I was gonna honor, I gave it a shot. So I picked up the Nadya Maker and they're in the ads for for uh clubs and there was a lot of blues clubs in those days in London. Was this band called The Black Cat Bones? I thought, what a great name. Never heard of them. So but they were in.
18:10 Billy Corgan? Were they looking for a drummer?
18:12 Speaker 01 No.
18:12 Billy Corgan? Oh, you saw an ad for them to.
18:13 Speaker 01 I just like the name.
18:14 Billy Corgan? Oh, okay.
18:15 Speaker 01 So if you imagine London like a huge American football, I'm here. And this club is here, like it's a forty five minute subway ride. What do I do? So I tossed a coin.
18:28 Speaker 01 I did, I swear to God. And it came down heads, I thought, and I went to this club. And I walked in and this band were playing, they were, they were pretty good. They were doing like Killing Floor and uh um.
18:44 Speaker 01 Born under a bad sign, wow. The the band were okay, but the guitarist was fantastic. Little guy, it was Paul Kosso.
18:51 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
18:52 Speaker 01 And during their break, they had a little two minute, two forty five breaks, two forty five minutes. He came to the bar and I had me half a pint of whatever. I said, hey, man. Um, can I buy you a drink? He said, yeah, yeah. I said, you play so well. You were really great, but your drummer.
19:13 Speaker 01 And I'm not normally a pushy guy, but something made me say that. He said, well, it's funny you should say that because he's getting a sack tonight. It's his last night. And we are auditioning tomorrow at this same place. So if you wanna come, so I had to go all the way back and then the next day all the way back again.
19:29 Billy Corgan? I hope he didn't flip a coin.
19:32 Speaker 01 And there was another drummer there. I played a shuffle and a little bit of a slow blues.
19:37 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
19:37 Speaker 01 And I got the gig. And that was for about six months. I was on cloud nine because I was earning money.
19:45 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
19:46 Speaker 01 It was a semi-pro band. We were playing five or six nights a week.
19:49 Billy Corgan? Wow.
19:50 Speaker 01 And then after about six months, Paul Kossoff came to me and said, look, I'm tired of playing this.
19:59 Speaker 01 You know, the same old, it was good, but it wasn't really.
20:02 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
20:02 Speaker 01 What he wanted to do. But I've met this singer who's in a band called Brown Sugar. He's leaving and he wants to, you know.
20:11 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
20:11 Speaker 01 Perform a band with me, you know, you want to play drums. And that was the beginning of free.
20:15 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
20:16 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:17 Billy Corgan? Did you?
20:20 Billy Corgan? Paul Kossoff, I mean, as a guitar player, I mean, he's a legend, you know, incredible, incredible, like.
20:27 Billy Corgan? Very few guys to me, and I'm speaking as a snobby guitar player now, very few guys can play straight blues or blues infused rock and, and stand out.
20:39 Speaker 01 Hmm.
20:39 Billy Corgan? And he's one of those guys.
20:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, true.
20:41 Billy Corgan? And I don't know how they do it because I can't do it.
20:44 Speaker 01 No.
20:44 Billy Corgan? Cause you know, every guitar player, and you've been in those jams. As soon as you start in the blues jam, everybody sounds insane, right? Everybody.
20:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:51 Billy Corgan? You gotta be really a Johnny Winter or a Kossoff.
20:54 Speaker 01 Stevie Ray or yeah.
20:55 Billy Corgan? Or, um, what's his Peter Green?
20:57 Speaker 01 Oh.
20:58 Billy Corgan? You know.
20:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:58 Billy Corgan? Somehow when they play, they play the blues, somehow it sounds different.
21:02 Speaker 01 It just rises above.
21:03 Billy Corgan? I don't know what that is because I, I couldn't do it. My, my daddy was really good at the blues. So I have a respect for.
21:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
21:10 Billy Corgan? I, at least in my own world, I could understand that I couldn't play the blues as good as my dad.
21:14 Speaker 01 Oh, wow.
21:15 Billy Corgan? You know, I mean, but I, and he loved the blues and he loved Albert King. So he was a kind of a blues purist. But Kossoff's one of those guys that really sticks out.
21:23 Speaker 01 Well, I think what happened when the light bulb came on for me, when you work alongside people and I had a basic knowledge of guitar, I play guitar much better now than I did all those years ago. I kind of took him for granted. You know, we're playing alongside him.
21:39 Billy Corgan? Sure.
21:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, he'd be all passionate and like. He played with elevens, by the way, really thick strings.
21:47 Billy Corgan? Stevie Ray.
21:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
21:49 Billy Corgan? High action, too.
21:51 Speaker 01 And a high action. I don't know how he did it because he was only a little bloke.
21:54 Billy Corgan? I don't know what it is about those guys. They want the high action and they want the heavy strings.
21:58 Speaker 01 I mean.
21:59 Billy Corgan? I think it's all about kind of forcing the note out.
22:02 Speaker 01 Yeah. So we were playing with Blind Faith.
22:05 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
22:05 Speaker 01 At Madison Square. We did a couple of gigs.
22:08 Billy Corgan? You fly over and you're playing Madison Square Garden and opening for Blind Faith. Hello.
22:12 Speaker 01 I never saw such a big, you've got to remember.
22:14 Billy Corgan? It's still a big gig.
22:15 Speaker 01 It's a big, and it's the old one. This is the old one. It's about 10 blocks south of
22:19 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
22:20 Speaker 01 the one that is now, but it's still 20,000 bloody seats. So when we, we did, we played a little club called The Blue Angel in Surrey and two nights later, we walk into this and we hear Bonny Delaney doing a sound check because it was Free Bonny Delaney and Blind Faith.
22:36 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
22:37 Speaker 01 And, and I saw Jim Keltner, the first real drummer I'm going.
22:41 Billy Corgan? I'm laughing because it's just like, it's so like, right? You're in it now.
22:45 Speaker 01 And so we did three or four shows and one, one night, we'd done our little set and our one roadie came and he said, Eric wants to come in.
22:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
22:57 Speaker 01 What do you mean, Eric Clapton?
22:58 Billy Corgan? That Eric.
22:59 Speaker 01 Yeah. He said, he said, all right. I said, you're kidding me? Of course. So he walks in and he goes up the cast. He said, you know, pats him on the back and said, how do you do that vibrato?
23:12 Speaker 01 And of course, I said, you're kidding me? The greatest guitarist in the world. And you're asked, yeah, you do it so slowly. So they start talking guitar speak and you know, we're just like, and I think that's when I realized, God, Cross really is good. That Clapton would come in.
23:28 Billy Corgan? Because he's just your guy, right? Yeah.
23:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
23:30 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
23:31 Speaker 01 And then of course, once I got playing guitar myself, I realized just how good he was.
23:36 Billy Corgan? He's really.
23:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
23:37 Billy Corgan? He's one of those guys that really stands out. If you don't, if people don't know Paul Kosov's playing, he's, he's one of those guys that's just, he never disappoints as a guitar player.
23:46 Speaker 01 Well, he's soloing All Right Now.
23:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
23:49 Speaker 01 You know, Rolling Stone, they have, you know, the greatest.
23:51 Billy Corgan? I have a story for you on that.
23:52 Speaker 01 Okay.
23:53 Billy Corgan? I have an insider story for you on that.
23:55 Speaker 01 Really?
23:55 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
23:56 Speaker 01 And I believe All Right Now came in around 30 or 40, one of the greatest guitar. I think he should have been in the top five, but anyway. When he did it, you've got to remember back in those days, we were just had a 16 track.
24:09 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
24:09 Speaker 01 So I believe he took the solo three times. And it starts in the middle of A, you know, around on the fifth fret. And gradually winds its way right up above the 12th. And we go, yeah, come on, you little, come on. And he come in, we give him a hug. Yeah, go on, do one more. So I think we we spliced two together.
24:30 Billy Corgan? Okay, this is like, I know a story. I'm glad I could contribute to this. So I worked with Roy Thomas Baker.
24:36 Speaker 01 Ah.
24:37 Billy Corgan? In 2006 and 2007. God bless Roy, he's passed away.
24:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:41 Billy Corgan? And of course, we knew about Roy doing Queen and the Cars and Molly Crew and stuff like this. But one day I was, I don't know, I was on the internet. I I realized that he had produced that record.
24:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, Fire and Water.
24:55 Billy Corgan? And I came in, I said, holy Roy, you did all right now, too. And very Roy Thomas Baker, he goes, yeah.
25:04 Billy Corgan? And he makes this like sad face. And I'm like, what's to be sad about? He goes, every time I hear the record, I wish I could do his, you can, you can hear his voice.
25:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
25:14 Billy Corgan? I know, it's like very Poncy Roy.
25:16 Speaker 01 Yeah.
25:17 Billy Corgan? He said, every time I hear that record, I hear where I didn't get the punch right on the solo.
25:24 Speaker 01 Get out of here.
25:25 Billy Corgan? And if you listen very closely, somewhere in the middle, you can hear, because of the old recorders, they didn't punch in very well.
25:32 Speaker 01 Right, that's true.
25:33 Billy Corgan? You can hear a little clunk.
25:34 Speaker 01 Millisecond.
25:35 Billy Corgan? You have to really listen for it. And he said he punched, he punched Paul in somewhere in there, and I've heard it.
25:42 Speaker 01 Well, well.
25:43 Billy Corgan? So that's my, that's my contribution to your, to your lore.
25:46 Speaker 01 That's a good one.
25:47 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Guys, so you guys had put out a couple of records, didn't do great.
25:52 Speaker 01 No.
25:53 Billy Corgan? Obviously, so Fire, Fire and
25:55 Speaker 01 Fire and Water.
25:56 Billy Corgan? Fire and Water, that, then you guys just
25:57 Speaker 01 Well, it
25:58 Billy Corgan? blow the hell up off that record.
25:59 Speaker 01 What happened was, we, we did what's called the Transit Circuit. Transit is an old sort of a van. And we'd go in our little van with all the gear in the back.
26:09 Billy Corgan? I saw, I saw this somewhere, Paul was the driver, right?
26:12 Speaker 01 Paul was the driver, yeah.
26:13 Billy Corgan? He was your, he was your only driver.
26:15 Speaker 01 He was the only driver, and he'd have this, you know, he'd have a little shiggy guy. And we have to talk to him to keep him awake. Hey, Paul, wake up. And so we went all over England and Scotland and a little bit of Europe, France, Belgium, Holland.
26:31 Speaker 01 And we amassed this sort of ground uh fanbase.
26:36 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
26:37 Speaker 01 And you know, we we got to be a really, really good club band. So what happened was with All Right Now was we came off stage to the sound of our own footsteps. Because we had this, the the the main free groove was.
26:54 Speaker 01 You know, it was kind of a a sort of head rocking, but not. You know, it was not lively.
27:00 Billy Corgan? Lot of space in that.
27:01 Speaker 01 A lot of space, a lot of hash. We swung a lot of hash. Um, so we we were at this at this university in in the north of England. And we came off the to the stage. Like that was it. And we had to walk through the crowd to get to the dressing rooms. They weren't at the back of the stage. So it was like, excuse me, excuse me, yeah, that's that, sorry. And we get to the dressing room and we said, fuck, we need a song that people can dance to, as simple as that. And another lightning bolt hit Andy Fraser in that dressing room and he said.
27:39 Speaker 01 We go, oh, that's good.
27:41 Billy Corgan? Really?
27:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, I swear to God. And he had the da, da, da, those three notes already. And him and Paul Rodgers, who were the main songwriting team, went off. And the next, I think the next week, we did a sound check. And we, this is what happened. We were listening, me and Paul Kossoff used to have these listening sessions. In fact, the four of us would have listening sessions that were of an album of the week that we would like. And the year before All Right Now, Honky Tonk Woman came out.
28:09 Billy Corgan? Sure, yeah.
28:09 Speaker 01 In open G.
28:15 Speaker 01 And I didn't know at the time it was open G without that bottom E string. But that kind of lit a fire under Paul Kossoff's bum. And he slid it up to A and it came.
28:26 Speaker 01 It's funny how things, you know, germinate.
28:29 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
28:29 Speaker 01 So we we honed it and played it and we finally debuted it at a gig in the north of England. Where we couldn't fail. We were very popular and the place went nuts. It went nuts. And off it went. And honestly, Billy, it became a bit of an albatross around our necks because we couldn't follow it up. We had this huge global hit.
28:52 Billy Corgan? I see, yeah.
28:53 Speaker 01 And it was great because suddenly we were playing different countries.
28:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I saw Isle of Wight, six hundred thousand plus people.
28:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, that's another story. That's a great story, but yeah. So we were the flavor of that particular month in July of seventy, I think it was seventy. And they said, would you like to appear, you know, on the same lineup as Hendrix, Janis Joplin, the band? We said, oh, we're there, man, we're there. So they flew us in and we're supposed to go on at eight on a Saturday night, which is the marquee.
29:24 Billy Corgan? This is this Isle of Wight?
29:25 Speaker 01 Yeah. And we flew from our little hotel on the western end of the island and we flew over first time in a helicopter. And we looked down, we see this sea of what I thought were ants all over the place. I said, that's the crowd. And then right there, about the size of a postage stamp, was the stage. So anyway, we get there and it's about five o'clock. We're supposed to go on at eight. A bit nervous, have a little puff, little sip of something. The hours go by and by, everyone's running over time till like ten o'clock at night. Our manager comes in, comes in and says, you're not going on tonight. What?
30:05 Speaker 01 No, everyone's running over. By the way, on Saturday night, Sly and the Family Stone took the stage at four o'clock in the morning. So he said, you're gonna go on tomorrow, Sunday, one o'clock. Best thing he ever did for us. We flew home, back to the hotel.
30:22 Speaker 01 But when we came out on Sunday morning, got got to the site at noon, we went on one o'clock. We were energized, the crowd was energized, and we just blew it out of the park.
30:34 Billy Corgan? Wow.
30:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:35 Billy Corgan? That's cool.
30:35 Speaker 01 That was the Isle of Wight.
30:36 Billy Corgan? So when you, uh, two things, I get what you're saying about not following it up. But what was the?
30:45 Billy Corgan? What was the aesthetic in the band? Because, you know, some bands were pure blues. You know, there was that whole vibe.
30:51 Speaker 01 Sure.
30:54 Billy Corgan? And listening to your music through the years, it's not a commercial band.
30:59 Speaker 01 No.
31:00 Billy Corgan? It's a band that's just saying, hey, we want to do what we want to do. Play, do it our way. And it holds up. I mean, the music is very credible. Obviously, Paul's an incredible singer as well. But, but what was the internal thought in the band?
31:13 Speaker 01 Well, All Right Now filled a void and it ticked a particular box. All right, we got a pop hit. Now let's really, and it was enjoyable and I still enjoy playing it to this day.
31:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
31:25 Speaker 01 But it didn't define Free. Free was, I guess you could call us a progressive blues rock band.
31:32 Billy Corgan? Okay.
31:33 Speaker 01 Because the blues was really the foundation of all our music, you know? So when, when we couldn't follow All Right Now, we had a song called Stealer, The Stealer, which was great. But it was that loping beat.
31:49 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
31:49 Speaker 01 It didn't chart, the album didn't chart. And we were kids and, and we were like, well, fuck that. Then we'll, we'll break up. I didn't say that. Paul Rodgers and Andy Fraser said, we're breaking the band up. And we were barely in our 21. Paul Kosso was 19. And, and we suddenly going, ah, let's just have a break. Come back in six months, which you couldn't really do in those days.
32:15 Billy Corgan? No, it wasn't like that.
32:17 Speaker 01 You know, nowadays.
32:18 Billy Corgan? Now would be a business strategy.
32:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:21 Speaker 01 You know, bands release albums every two or three years now. Back then, it was like two a year. So Island Records, you know, I don't want to go on about it because I know more about addiction than I ever did back then. And Paul Kosso became addicted to pills. And he was starting to show signs of that when, when Free split. And it really sent him into a downward spiral when, without Paul Rodgers and Andy. And he got really bad and very, very downhearted. Started doing lots of pills. So six, nine months later, we reformed.
33:03 Speaker 01 For him.
33:04 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
33:04 Speaker 01 And I didn't know, I I'm, I don't mind saying, I'm in recovery myself. I don't, I I abuse substances. But back in those days, addiction was something you swept under the rug. You know, you didn't deal with it. You were a pariah if you were addicted to alcohol or pills or coke or whatever.
33:22 Billy Corgan? Well, you also, I think maybe that crowded you would, you were seen as weak, right? Is that it?
33:26 Speaker 01 You were seen as weak.
33:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
33:27 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
33:28 Billy Corgan? Cause you couldn't handle your drink.
33:29 Speaker 01 Right.
33:30 Billy Corgan? Especially in a drinking culture like the UK.
33:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
33:33 Billy Corgan? Like, oh, you, you can't handle your drink.
33:35 Speaker 01 No, no, what are you, some pussy or something?
33:37 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah, exactly.
33:38 Speaker 01 But Eric, Eric was great because Eric was the first person to publicly clap, then obviously. Put his hand up and say, you know, I'm, I'm a junkie. I'm an addict. And he was using this doctor, um, this called the, the box invented by Dr. Meg Patterson.
33:55 Billy Corgan? Okay.
33:55 Speaker 01 Which we gave an electric shock. It sounds horrible nowadays. Um, but it helped him get off, uh, and he reached out to Kos, cause he had a little.
34:05 Billy Corgan? Ah.
34:06 Speaker 01 And he said, look, you know, go, go and see Meg Patterson, famous doctor. But he poo-pooed it and he just got worse and worse. So the reunion of Free didn't last very long and it led to some.
34:19 Billy Corgan? So Rogers had his own issues on, Paul Kossoff has his own issues.
34:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:23 Billy Corgan? And then you guys are trying to kind of make it.
34:25 Speaker 01 We re, we reunited for the wrong reason. He should have gone to rehab. And to this day, I kind of blame Island Records for not, for not pulling him by the scruff of the neck and putting him in rehab. Cause I, I really think he could have made it. But the culture back in nineteen seventy two just wasn't around. Nowadays, there's AA meetings every, every block. It's much more in the open. So anyway, he's, he's continued to spiral and Free broke, broke up again.
34:59 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
35:00 Speaker 01 And we did go our own ways and we, me and Paul formed back company.
35:04 Billy Corgan? Um, before we, uh, set aside Free, we'll talk about your other, your other small band.
35:13 Billy Corgan? I was, I was listening to some of the music last couple of days and I thought this is interesting because I'm, I'm a big fan of Steve Marriott.
35:24 Speaker 01 Oh.
35:24 Billy Corgan? And I came very late to the Steve Marriott party. And what I mean by that is humble pie was sort of big in America. A couple of hit 30 days in a hole.
35:36 Speaker 01 Great band.
35:37 Billy Corgan? But, but who, who humble pie and who Steve Marriott was in music never translated into America into a message. They were just another band with a couple of songs. Right. But I'm listening to you guys in the time when Free's still up there, right? And I'm thinking, I wonder how Steve Marriott, this just totally off the top of my head. I wonder how Steve Marriott felt about Free.
36:04 Speaker 01 It's funny to say.
36:05 Billy Corgan? So I start Googling around as you do and I'll let you pick it up from there.
36:09 Speaker 01 Well, when, when Paul decided to leave the band, Free splintered finally. Our manager at the time said, why don't we get another singer? So how are you going to fill Paul Rodgers' boot? Steve Marriott and Steve is an incredible singer.
36:28 Billy Corgan? Unbelievable.
36:28 Speaker 01 Oh, and a little 120 pound dripping wet, five foot four.
36:33 Billy Corgan? Same, but for our generation, same thing with Kurt Cobain.
36:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:36 Billy Corgan? You'd look at him and say, how does that sound come out of that?
36:40 Speaker 01 Come out of that little body. Yeah. That skinny little thing.
36:43 Billy Corgan? That's the same thing with Cobain. You, you would watch him on stage and you couldn't believe.
36:48 Speaker 01 No.
36:48 Billy Corgan? And I think that must've been this, I never saw Marriott live, but watching it, even going back to Small Faces, what a voice.
36:55 Speaker 01 What a voice. Well, we toured our first package tour, because back in those days, there was a thing called package tour.
37:01 Billy Corgan? Sure.
37:01 Speaker 01 Which was taking the leaf out of stacks, who had, you know, that wonderful package tour that went all over Europe. Was Free, we had 20 minutes, The Crazy World of Arthur Brown.
37:11 Billy Corgan? Okay.
37:11 Speaker 01 Fire with the helmet.
37:16 Speaker 01 Gino Washington, no, um, I'll praise Wanda Brown, Gino Washington, Joe Cocker.
37:22 Billy Corgan? Okay, nice.
37:23 Speaker 01 The small faces in The Who.
37:24 Billy Corgan? Not a bad, not a bad bill.
37:26 Speaker 01 All on one. So we got to see Marriott at his peak every night.
37:30 Billy Corgan? Every night. And he was only going up for what, 20, 30 minutes? So he was killing it.
37:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah. Wonderful pitching, such a soulful voice. Anyway, he came to my house when Paul had made an exit and...
37:44 Billy Corgan? Can I stop you one second?
37:45 Speaker 01 Yeah, sure.
37:46 Billy Corgan? But he, but he was critical of Free, like there was a bit of a kind of a weird jealousy there, right?
37:50 Speaker 01 I don't know. Oh, maybe.
37:52 Billy Corgan? No, apparently what I read, and of course it's the internet, was he said negative stuff about you guys and he later apologized.
38:00 Speaker 01 Oh, all right.
38:01 Billy Corgan? He kind of felt bad, but I, but, but I can see why because you guys were a little younger.
38:06 Speaker 01 We were.
38:07 Billy Corgan? And you, in a way, you had the breakthrough that he never had.
38:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah. Well, Free were kind of shackled by Paul Cosgrove's addiction. We only completed two tours of America.
38:21 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
38:21 Speaker 01 We were slated to do five and three of them are cancelled because of Cosgrove's addiction. So we never, we were never, we never allowed ourselves.
38:31 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
38:31 Speaker 01 The circumstances allowed us off to give it a big shot. Otherwise, I think Free would have been much bigger.
38:37 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
38:37 Speaker 01 Because we were that great little band that could, but never did.
38:41 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
38:41 Speaker 01 So along comes Humble Pie, same lineup, great guitarist, Frampton.
38:45 Billy Corgan? Frampton.
38:46 Speaker 01 One of the most underrated guitarists and Marriott and the great singer, Jerry was a great drummer. And they were just a great band, but they just, there's something they didn't really click. But that's, that, that's a good point. So anyway.
39:00 Billy Corgan? So it comes to your house.
39:01 Speaker 01 It comes from, and it's about 11:00 in the morning.
39:04 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
39:05 Speaker 01 And I have a little boathouse at the bottom of my garden where my studio is. And he says, oh, it's all good to meet you, mate, la, la, la. Uh, what time do the pubs open?
39:16 Speaker 01 Eleven thirty, they're still open now. He said, well, I'll come back in a minute. I just want to grab a pint. So he disappears for, you know, twenty minutes, come back. Half an hour later, I'm just gonna go to the pub and go, oh, fuck. And I'm just getting over Paul Kossoff with his addictions. And here's Stevie, it's one o'clock and he's already half cut.
39:36 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
39:36 Speaker 01 So I told the manager, I said, it ain't gonna work. It's not gonna.
39:40 Billy Corgan? Oh, wow.
39:41 Speaker 01 And I think he told Mary, sorry, guys. And that started the entity.
39:46 Billy Corgan? Okay, that that makes it make a bit more sense.
39:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
39:50 Billy Corgan? Did you, I only ask you because I saw this recently. I was watching an interview with Glenn Hughes of Deep Purple fame.
39:57 Speaker 01 Great player.
39:59 Billy Corgan? And he was talking about when he first came into Deep Purple, how there was talk that before they got Coverdale, they wanted Paul Rodgers. Is that, is that a true story?
40:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's true. I don't think he auditioned.
40:13 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
40:14 Speaker 01 But he was approached and he turned them down.
40:17 Billy Corgan? I doubt they would ask him to audition because.
40:19 Speaker 01 No.
40:20 Billy Corgan? One of those things like, do you want the gig? Well, who's gonna follow Ian Gillan at that?
40:25 Speaker 01 No.
40:26 Billy Corgan? Only a guy like with Paul Rodgers.
40:28 Speaker 01 Well, there was a different style. I mean, Purple in their heyday, fantastic band. But they were the kings or the forerunners or precursors to heavy metal.
40:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
40:40 Speaker 01 And Ian was one of those, nah, you know, so almost operatic before Freddie.
40:45 Billy Corgan? I like your, I like your.
40:46 Speaker 01 And Paul was more blues.
40:49 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
40:49 Speaker 01 More Otis, you know, so it wouldn't have worked.
40:56 Billy Corgan? I'm curious because on, on, on paper, it says that you and, and, and Paul Rodgers go on and form Bad Company. But that only happens.
41:08 Billy Corgan? Because you you know, and and I get it in reverse. People tend to focus on the lead singer, whether the lead singer is the band or not. It's it's right. People tend to focus on the lead singer because that's the face of the band.
41:21 Speaker 01 Sure.
41:21 Billy Corgan? And I'm sure Paul, just like we're talking about Rogers, would have had a numeral opportunities as a solo artist, whatever. So the fact that he goes and starts another band with you, I was like, OK, they must have had an interesting relationship. Because that's usually where if Paul Rodgers was about Paul Rodgers, he would have bolted on you and gone and done whatever and made it his world.
41:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:43 Billy Corgan? But he he wanted you and him to carry on.
41:47 Speaker 01 Yes.
41:48 Billy Corgan? Is that is that accurate?
41:49 Speaker 01 I I pretty not not 100%. The story of the formation of Bad Company, just going back a little bit, going through that sort of forged in that fire of free. You know, it kind of bonded us, you know, we were we were experiencing the demise of our little band that became so big and we loved each other. But when Paul Kosso started spiraling out of control, me and Rogers kind of bonded on a personal level. Andy Fraser kind of went his own way. So when I called Paul in Spring of 73, he said, I've been in Brazil, just trying to get my head straight away from the mess of free. I said, hey, Paul, what you up to?
42:31 Speaker 01 And he said, well, I've met this great guy from What the Hoopole, Mick Ralph, and we want to form a band. So it was mainly Mick and Paul. Paul had formed a band called Peace, and they were opening for What the Hoopole on a tour of England.
42:47 Billy Corgan? Oh, OK.
42:47 Speaker 01 And Mick was getting disenchanted with Ian Hunter, and he wanted to go his own way. And he had a little cassette of this song called Can't Get Enough. And it was a little Lin drum machine, dum dum dum dum, and this open C tuning where the neck of the guitar is like. Because it's so tense, you know, and he played this open C, bam, bam bam bam. And Paul said, this is a fucking hit, man. And Mick told me when he started singing in that dressing room along to
43:19 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
43:19 Speaker 01 the demo, he's the hair's on his back of his neck.
43:23 Billy Corgan? It's a classic.
43:24 Speaker 01 Yeah. So he said, look, would you want to you want to come and play drums? I said, absolutely. So it was Mick and Paul who really came up with Bad Company.
43:33 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
43:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:36 Billy Corgan? No, because it's just, I just, I know too well how musicians think, right? So at least I appreciate it from a fan point of view that, that you guys had enough of a relationship that you wanted to continue that relationship.
43:51 Speaker 01 Definitely.
43:58 Billy Corgan? Trying to find the right way to phrase the question. Was, was it deliberately intended that the band company would be a more commercial band? Was that in the roots of the thinking from the get go? Or did it just kind of go that way?
44:10 Speaker 01 No, commercial was not, what we had in mind was to throw off the shackles of our three previous bands. As you know, Bodz, Burrell came from King Crimson. Mick, you know, left Mot the Hoopla. Me and Paul had left the ashes of Free. So we just wanted to play what we wanted to play. And it just so happened that what you're hearing on the first three albums is about, is a four guys who are having fun. And if it was a hit, it was a hit. You've got to remember in 73, it was the advent, the emergence of album radio, FM
44:50 Speaker 01 radio, which kind of discarded the 45s, which was left to AM radio. So they started playing entire albums. And at the forefront of this was Led Zeppelin.
45:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah. So is it, is the logic then, okay, we can just focus on being a great band with great songs and the rest will take care of itself? And we don't have to worry about single, single, single.
45:13 Speaker 01 Exactly.
45:14 Billy Corgan? Which is interesting because you guys end up being a really commercial band.
45:17 Speaker 01 Can't Get Enough was like in the top three in America. And like, we didn't want that. Well, we didn't plan it, but it happened. So what?
45:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
45:25 Speaker 01 And, and, and Zeppelin, of course, at that time were bigger than sliced bread. And and and they they said we they astewed that whole thing about singles and so on.
45:36 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
45:37 Speaker 01 And their albums, you know, sold by the ton. So when Peter Grant asked us if we'd like to be on their label, we said, well, think about it. Yes, you know, and and we.
45:48 Billy Corgan? You guys were the first artists to sign this one.
45:50 Speaker 01 And it was a perfect storm.
45:51 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
45:51 Speaker 01 Because we were we were like greyhounds let out of the trap. Just.
45:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
45:57 Speaker 01 You know, allied with this amazing Led Zeppelin and and Swan Song Record.
46:02 Billy Corgan? What was it? What was it? Because it's not fair to it's apples and oranges, but what was it about Mick Ralph's skill set as a musician and as a guitar player and as a writer?
46:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:12 Billy Corgan? That kind of made it because I don't and I don't mean commercial in a denigrating way. But there's something about that formulae that produces all this. And it's not wholly different music. You guys are still playing kind of blues basedish rock.
46:27 Speaker 01 True.
46:28 Billy Corgan? But suddenly it it all sort of snaps into focus.
46:30 Speaker 01 No. B B King said a great thing years ago in an interview. He said, I don't like playing with geniuses. I like playing with people that I like, that I get on with. And it's so true. I played with geniuses and to a man, they're a pain in the ass. You know, that you you have those moments of, whoa, what the? That's incredible, followed by great bouts of, oh, what guy's gonna walk through the door tonight? I wonder. With Mick, you had a guy.
46:59 Billy Corgan? I think I resemble this.
47:02 Speaker 01 So, you know, with Mick, Mick was number one. He was fun, funny.
47:10 Speaker 01 Gregarious, easy to get on with, and he just happened to write these wonderful songs. Everything was like one straight finger because it was moving on, can't get enough, ready for love, beautiful song.
47:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
47:24 Speaker 01 And he was just easy to get on with and and and Paul was had this weight taken off his shoulders. He his writing partner was someone that he liked and got on with, and it was just a wonderful marriage, you know. So that's that's we were like kids in a candy store, really.
47:42 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
47:43 Speaker 01 First few years.
47:44 Billy Corgan? Those rest those records still hold up very well because there's a sort of a muscularity to the sound. Was that intentional or was that just the way the records were being made at that time or?
47:56 Speaker 01 Ah, never heard, never thought of that.
47:58 Billy Corgan? Because when I think of Bad Company.
48:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, it is muscular.
48:01 Billy Corgan? Because I was listening when those records were coming out.
48:04 Speaker 01 Right.
48:04 Billy Corgan? And you guys were huge in Chicago on the radio. I mean, all your top songs were huge in Chicago. And they're still getting played like crazy. But I remember thinking like, and I didn't make the connection of the time between Free and Bad Company. To me, just Bad.
48:19 Speaker 01 Well, you wouldn't, they're two totally separate.
48:20 Billy Corgan? What I'm saying is I didn't even know there was a historical connection. I didn't even know it was the same singer. You know what I mean? Just suddenly there's this band called Bad Company.
48:27 Speaker 01 Right.
48:27 Billy Corgan? Saw these hit songs on the radio. But it always struck me, the records have a real muscularity to them, like a physical thing. Where a lot of bluesish type bands, they end up sounding kind of, not thin, but.
48:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
48:40 Billy Corgan? They don't have that, I don't know, there's a weight to Bad Company that I always liked. Like even the song Bad Company, it's like, the production is just so good.
48:50 Speaker 01 You know, they asked Charlie Watts and Bill Wyman, they had the two reluctant interviewees. And the backstage at some enormous stadium and Charlie and Bill shuffle in and the guy says, how come you two are such, the best rhythm section in the world? And Charlie said, no, I don't know, we just play together. And it's one of those trite answers that you can't. I played to enjoy, I played because I was only 24, 25 at the time. I was, I was in awe of Al Jackson Jr. And, but I had that muscularity because I wanted to lay down something that was solid, like a, like a cinder block.
49:29 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
49:29 Speaker 01 And we always played in, in studios, but we're not studios. We rented a house, we had Headley Grange.
49:37 Billy Corgan? Headley Grange, which is also where Zeppelin made, what is it?
49:40 Speaker 01 Then Clearwell Castle, which was a castle on the border of Wales. So we each had our own room. So the separation between the.
49:48 Billy Corgan? Is that what it was? Okay, maybe that's why it sounds so good.
49:50 Speaker 01 I, maybe. And all our albums were done in non-studio.
49:56 Billy Corgan? Usually, were you usually using the Ronnie Lane mobile?
49:59 Speaker 01 Ronnie Lane or the Rolling Stones mobile.
50:02 Billy Corgan? Ah.
50:02 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah, we never used a real studio.
50:06 Billy Corgan? It seems to me.
50:10 Billy Corgan? When I get a chance to interview someone with your accomplishment, you know, you can really grind down into details because there's so many great songs. And what about this? And there's always a story and stuff like that. I feel like it's interesting because it's interesting, but it's not as interesting as maybe something that you and I and very few people would understand, which is why the fans are focused and why the media is focused on this incredible moment, this hit song and this thing. It doesn't feel that way when you're in a band. It's kind of a, it's almost like a blur.
50:43 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
50:45 Billy Corgan? It doesn't feel like a blur. It's a fun blur, but it's a blur.
50:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
50:48 Billy Corgan? So, and it strikes me because of the success that Bad Company had. It's, but tell me, from the outside, looking at it from a musician's perspective, it looks like record tour, record tour, record tour.
51:02 Speaker 01 Exactly right.
51:03 Billy Corgan? Did it?
51:04 Speaker 01 And that became, that took a toll, particularly on Paul. And you know, as a musician, that a vocalist only has his throat to rely on. You know, we're lucky, you know, we can turn up the volume or I can, you know, ask the guys in the monitors, turn me up. But vocalist is kind of naked for 90 minutes or 120 minutes. And we had this, we were on this carousel of tour album, tour album, tour album. And Paul at one point said, I need a break, guys, because we're doing arenas. The whole, I mean, it's lovely on paper, the limos and the 20,000 sellouts.
51:45 Speaker 01 You know, the whole, you know, plethora of, of, of stuff that can lead you down dark roads. And we had all of that in spades. Luckily enough, we were young enough to be able to enjoy it and not take too much of the toll.
52:00 Billy Corgan? The recovery time.
52:01 Speaker 01 The recovery time, yeah.
52:05 Speaker 01 But there came a time when, when Paul Rodgers said, I want a break.
52:08 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
52:09 Speaker 01 And we didn't get it. And he said.
52:12 Billy Corgan? Was there a reason you didn't get the?
52:15 Speaker 01 There were a lot of drugs involved and I'm not, I'm not pointing my finger at anyone. But now that Peter has passed away, Peter Grant was going through his own struggles.
52:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
52:25 Speaker 01 With addiction and Zeppelin were kind of on the ropes and the whole, that whole late nine, uh, late nine, cut. That whole late seventies period.
52:35 Billy Corgan? And late eighties and late nineties.
52:37 Speaker 01 Yeah, became a bit of a millstone.
52:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
52:40 Speaker 01 And um, we were kind of left rudderless, uh, if you will, I was having my own trouble with substances. And by the, when Bonzo died and John Bonham died.
52:52 Billy Corgan? Is that eighty?
52:53 Speaker 01 Uh, nineteen eighty.
52:54 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
52:55 Speaker 01 You had Lennon being shot, John Bonham died and the whole rudder came off, uh, Swan Song Records. Zeppelin bad company, Peter Grant was a mess and the band kind of broke up in nineteen eighty two. We struggled through Rough Diamonds, which was our last album. And they got into a fistfight. It was horrible.
53:17 Billy Corgan? Oh.
53:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah. And once bands start hitting each other, unless you're.
53:21 Billy Corgan? Was the tension, cause I read something about there was tension between Mick Ralphs and, and Paul Rodgers, but.
53:27 Speaker 01 No, it was more between Bos, believe it or not, yeah, Bos Burrell and Paul. Um, there was never any tension between Mick and, and Paul.
53:36 Billy Corgan? Okay, maybe.
53:38 Speaker 01 So let's.
53:38 Billy Corgan? Blame the internet, yeah.
53:39 Speaker 01 Yeah, bass players, God bless them, they're a fucking pain in the arse. And keyboard players, I'm kind of kidding. Um, but it did lead to the breakup of the band. We had enjoyed amazing success.
53:54 Billy Corgan? Yes.
53:55 Speaker 01 And, and thanks to Peter's amazing management skills, the bond with Zeppelin.
54:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
54:01 Speaker 01 You know, they were, they were like big brothers to us. They came to our shows. We, you know, we came to them and, and it was, it was, you know, a lovely marriage, but at some point it took its toll. And um, we split. In nineteen eighty two, we, Paul went off and that was it.
54:18 Billy Corgan? How, well, I know you sold your dons, so it's a weird way to ask the question, but did you feel like you should stop? Or, I mean, what, on the exact moment of like, okay, he's out. Where were you at? In a way, were you relieved because like you could get off the?
54:33 Speaker 01 Well, the way it had suddenly turned was happened so quickly and I understand now that Paul really needed a break and I wish that Swan Song had said to Atlantic Records, "Hey, let's put the brakes on this thing because these guys are on the ropes." And there's something about record companies, they just don't understand that the investment of a few months off will yield more years. They just don't get it. So Paul went off in a huff and I don't blame him. He started his own solo career and we, the three of us languished, you know, drumming our fingers. So what the we gonna do?
55:17 Speaker 01 So I got a call from Armit Ertigan from Atlantic, a wonderful guy, a legend. He said, "Hey, you know, what's Bad Company doing?" I said, "Well, we ain't got a singer." Because the best singer in the world is taking a hike. He said, "So get another singer."
55:35 Speaker 01 Wow. So we did.
55:38 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
55:38 Speaker 01 You know, and I'll be honest now, Billy, there was a certain cue to Paul because he, and you know, now we're friends again. This had been a long time ago, 40 years ago. But at the time I was like, we put all this work in.
55:53 Billy Corgan? I've been there. I was in the exact same situation where somebody banged off and I thought, no, I'm just gonna go on.
56:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:00 Billy Corgan? You know?
56:01 Speaker 01 So we did.
56:02 Billy Corgan? It gets in almost like a siege mentality, like I'm gonna keep fighting or something.
56:07 Speaker 01 Well, I didn't want all that work and all that popularity just to go down the drain.
56:11 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
56:12 Speaker 01 Because Paul didn't.
56:13 Billy Corgan? And also what else are you gonna do? You're gonna go play golf or?
56:15 Speaker 01 No, well, I do and I didn't then, but I was only in 82, I was 33.
56:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
56:23 Speaker 01 And I was just like, come on.
56:24 Billy Corgan? Let's go, yeah.
56:25 Speaker 01 So after two years, you know, I was big friends with Mick Jones from Foreigner, who said, "Look, I've got this guy in the wings we've been grooming because Lou Graham wants to hang it up. He's got medical problems, la la la." And his name is Brian Howe and he's a good singer. He's not like Paul, but he's, he wants to work. He's a good singer. "You wanna check him out?" I said, "Yeah, okay."
56:51 Speaker 01 And I met Brian, who was, no, he was nothing like Paul, he was a different style, more like Ian Coverdale.
56:58 Billy Corgan? Okay.
56:59 Speaker 01 You know, um, or Ian Gillan, Dave Coverdale, I'm sorry.
57:04 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
57:05 Speaker 01 More like Dave or Ian Gillan, but he wanted to work, he was a good looking guy and he was eager. And we took him on board and then the whole direction of the band kind of skewed away.
57:17 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
57:17 Speaker 01 From the blues, you know, and became more, more heavy metal. And, and I'm honest now, you know, I, I, it was a period where, which I do regret. And I'll, I'll put my hand up and say, I, me and Mick kind of made a knee jerk decision. And we took this guy on board and it's weird, Billy, because what happened when Brian passed away a few years ago. There were all these Facebook and Instagram dedications to him from kids or, you know, people now. Who had only come to realise about Bad Company when Brian was in the band.
57:55 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
57:55 Speaker 01 They didn't know about the former.
57:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
57:57 Speaker 01 You know, incarnation. So they were saying, who's this guy Paul Rodgers? I mean. Why, why don't you mention Brian in the Hall of Fame? And I'm like, fucking hell. So there were these two distinct versions of the band, you know.
58:11 Billy Corgan? If you had it to do over again, do you think you should just?
58:14 Speaker 01 No.
58:14 Billy Corgan? Make a different name or you?
58:15 Speaker 01 I wouldn't do it again. Um, I was coerced. I was doing a lot of drugs and drinking and I wanted to tour. I wanted to, to continue the name. And we did. I mean, we sold millions of albums.
58:31 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
58:31 Speaker 01 With, with Brian, but it, it kind of tarnished, I think it tarnished the reputation a little bit.
58:38 Billy Corgan? Yeah, it's something happened there where it seemed like the shine went off the band. But I don't have a specific memory of why, and I guess maybe that's part of it.
58:48 Speaker 01 Well, if if you were to take the second incarnation of Bad Company and put it out
58:56 Speaker 01 with people never having known the first, I don't think it would have sold a tenth
59:00 Billy Corgan? I see.
59:00 Speaker 01 of what it did. But on the back of the original
59:03 Billy Corgan? Sure.
59:03 Speaker 01 lineup, Bad Company was back with a different singer, a bit like Journey. You know, Journey managed and still do to this day with different singers. They managed Foreigner, don't even have an original member.
59:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I think it's different times too, because now the expectation is the brand of the band will continue. Journey is the most obvious example, where they have a completely different lead singer and they're a stadium band.
59:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:31 Billy Corgan? And then people have gotten very used to the idea that bands go out in in much different configurations than the classic lineups.
59:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, and they just want to hear the songs.
59:41 Billy Corgan? Isn't it, maybe I'm asking for your, it's like if we were just sitting around just yucking it up, but isn't it interesting, at least to me, that that at the end of the day, the song has become the most important thing? Where we grew up thinking the band was the most important thing.
59:56 Speaker 01 True.
59:56 Billy Corgan? And then the song was a part of, but now it's almost inverted. It's really about the songs. And if you have the songs, then people want to see that brand play those songs.
1:00:06 Speaker 01 Well, the first band to do that were the Rolling Stones. When Brian died.
1:00:11 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:00:11 Speaker 01 You know, they bought in Ronnie.
1:00:13 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:00:13 Speaker 01 I mean, so what? They're still playing Satisfaction and I'm still a woman. And I'm going, me, yeah.
1:00:19 Billy Corgan? Well, I think Mick figured out all of this stuff many years before all of us.
1:00:23 Speaker 01 I think so. You know, but when you're a four piece and one member goes, which particularly the singer.
1:00:30 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:00:31 Speaker 01 You can change drummers and bass player, even lead guitarist, but to come with a
1:00:36 Billy Corgan? Well, Paul Rodgers is one of the greatest
1:00:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:00:38 Billy Corgan? rock singers in the history of of that.
1:00:41 Speaker 01 For sure.
1:00:42 Billy Corgan? Our shared genre. I mean, there's not even a question.
1:00:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:00:46 Billy Corgan? What did you think when Paul went out with Queen? I thought that was an interesting choice.
1:00:50 Speaker 01 I I was gobsmacked because him and Freddie was so different.
1:00:54 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:00:55 Speaker 01 In terms of singing style. But I went to see them at Nassau Coliseum. They were great. They didn't do Bohemian Rhapsody.
1:01:03 Billy Corgan? Interesting.
1:01:04 Speaker 01 Well, I mean, it's kind of hard to duplicate that on stage.
1:01:07 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:01:07 Speaker 01 Replicate it on stage. But they did, We Will Rock You and Rogers with that. And it worked.
1:01:13 Billy Corgan? Okay.
1:01:13 Speaker 01 And once again, it goes back to the songs rule.
1:01:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:01:18 Speaker 01 You know, Roger and Brian were there.
1:01:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:01:21 Speaker 01 With them, you know, with backup singers and whatever, and different bass players and keyboard players. But We Will Rock You. You know, what I wanna break free. All the hits were there and that's what people came to hear. So I was pleased for him because his, the firm hadn't really blossomed, you know, the thing with Jimmy.
1:01:41 Billy Corgan? I actually saw the firm.
1:01:42 Speaker 01 Did you? I never saw him.
1:01:43 Billy Corgan? Yeah. It's interesting. I love Jimmy Page as a, I've met Jimmy a few times, but I love Jimmy as a musician, so I mean no disrespect. But Jimmy's had his own struggle.
1:01:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, we know. Yeah.
1:01:56 Billy Corgan? So I, I went to see them in Chicago when Radioactive was a big hit.
1:02:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:02 Billy Corgan? And for the first half hour of the show, it was magical. Jimmy was on fire. Paul was in good voice. And it was like, wow.
1:02:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:15 Billy Corgan? Like A level musicians playing A level stuff.
1:02:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:20 Billy Corgan? And then I don't know what happened with Jimmy. All of a sudden it was like.
1:02:23 Speaker 01 Oh.
1:02:24 Billy Corgan? And by the end, it was, it was like a car crash.
1:02:27 Speaker 01 Wow.
1:02:28 Billy Corgan? And I was a guitar player and grew up with guitar.
1:02:30 Speaker 01 Of course.
1:02:30 Billy Corgan? Father, so I was very aware of like what was happening. And he could even read the body.
1:02:34 Speaker 01 You weren't only just a guitar, but you were a good guitar player, Mr. Corgan. But so you were disappointed, I mean, just.
1:02:41 Billy Corgan? I couldn't believe that this was the same show.
1:02:45 Billy Corgan? That that that I watched a band go from being an elite rock and roll live act in an arena setting being like, wow, to by the end I was like, what am I watching? And it was like Jimmy just sort of disintegrated live.
1:02:59 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:03:00 Billy Corgan? It was very strange. I've never seen anything like it. And it's a very distinct memory to this day. And Jimmy's still one of my favorite
1:03:07 Speaker 01 Of course.
1:03:07 Billy Corgan? songwriters, musicians ever. I mean, what a musician, guitar player.
1:03:11 Speaker 01 Well, there are certain, you know, we sort of followed Zeppelin all over the world. Sometimes we went to each other's concerts and there'd been many books written about Zeppelin.
1:03:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:03:25 Speaker 01 Jimmy's never actually come out and said, yeah, I went through a really, it's been alluded to that he had his struggles with heroin. And him and Bonzo were, you know, Bonzo was the wrecking ball, the one man wrecking crew. And Jimmy was this sort of ghost of a guy. And I'm not speaking out of turn because everyone knows that Zeppelin in the late seventies were becoming this
1:03:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:03:49 Speaker 01 drug fueled train wreck, really. They just weren't happening. You had two camps. You had John Paul and Robert, who, you know, were the relatively sane guys. And then you had the other camp.
1:04:02 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Jimmy and Bonzo. I mean, maybe that's the root of this beautiful musical.
1:04:06 Speaker 01 There you go.
1:04:07 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:04:07 Speaker 01 Sparks.
1:04:09 Billy Corgan? Few more things, and thank you for indulging me.
1:04:15 Billy Corgan? Because you went through that period when Paul left and you you soldier on and you you do have success, but there's always that sort of vibe, like, and I get it in my, you know, when so and so coming back, or it doesn't sound the same and all that stuff.
1:04:32 Billy Corgan? Now that you're sort of in the rearview mirror and everything's happened and the piece has been made where it needs to be made and all that stuff. How do you view? I guess what I would say is, I'm asking is, can you speak to what it's like to experience? Because I think most fans don't really understand those sort of choices. Like you talked about, like, I wanted a tour, I wanted to make bread, I wasn't in the best shape. But now that you have the perspective to sit back and look at it, how, what would you say to fans to try to explain? Like, sometimes, because when fans want to talk to me about the stuff, I'm just like, look, life happens. You know, you're in a beautiful fairy tale and one day that fairy tale starts to end. You can go home and sit at home, or you can just keep going and try to make it sort of work itself out.
1:05:17 Speaker 01 I think it's a kind of a two or three-pronged answer because, number one, what people maybe don't realize or tend to forget is that I really loved Mick and Boss. And I didn't want to start another band with unknowns. Sure, we had a high platform, a high profile because of this, of the success of Bad Company. But to go out and go with someone else and audition and start again. And I really loved Mick and Boss and I didn't want to start again. So when, when Brian Howe came on the horizon and he auditioned and he was pretty damn good, it kind of, going back to what BB said, you have to like
1:05:59 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:05:59 Speaker 01 someone, to live with them, especially on the road. And I was hoping that that piece of the jigsaw Brian Howe would fit with the other three. We hoped that. It wasn't there from the get-go and it didn't. It kind of got worse as the years went by. And, and I don't want to speak ill of someone who's passed away, but we, we started, we started butting heads. And he started doing this monologue in the beginning of Bad Company, you know, bom, bom, bom, which is the piano intro. And he would take it for like three minutes and he'd go on this like political rant. I'm going, what?
1:06:41 Speaker 01 And at one point I went boom on the bass drums and physically you could see him jerk. He said, what was all that in the dressing room? Don't you use this band as a political forum? He was a little red around the neck, shall we say? Uh, and, and it just got, just got worse.
1:06:58 Billy Corgan? I love this stuff.
1:06:59 Speaker 01 So, you know, you know, it's spinal tap.
1:07:02 Billy Corgan? We're all in spinal tap.
1:07:04 Speaker 01 So we politely asked.
1:07:06 Billy Corgan? Different versions of spinal tap.
1:07:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, we asked him to leave. He'll say he left, but we did ask him to leave and it's a shame because I know that his heart was in the right place. And when someone passes away, particularly at a relatively young age, I felt for him and his family.
1:07:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:07:23 Speaker 01 Um.
1:07:25 Billy Corgan? Plus, to be fair, sorry, I don't, I don't know.
1:07:27 Speaker 01 No, no, I'm gone.
1:07:28 Billy Corgan? But what I'd like to say in communion is it's a tough gig.
1:07:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:07:34 Billy Corgan? You know what I mean? You're trying to come in and follow Paul Rodgers.
1:07:37 Speaker 01 That's true. Yeah.
1:07:38 Billy Corgan? I know, by the way, you're singing Paul Rodgers vocals half the night.
1:07:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:07:42 Billy Corgan? It's a tough gig.
1:07:43 Speaker 01 Well, also he had this alliance with this producer called Terry Thomas. And they started writing all the songs and we left Peter Grant because the whole Zeppelin Grant thing just dissolved. And we went with this other manager who managed Foreigner called Bud Prager.
1:08:05 Billy Corgan? Okay.
1:08:06 Speaker 01 And Foreigner were enjoying this huge success and, and Brian and Terry, excuse me, started writing these pretty commercial songs that Foreigner could have done or Journey could have done. It wasn't, it was drifting further and further away.
1:08:21 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:08:21 Speaker 01 From, from the original Bad Company. So Mick, being one of the prime writers of the original Bad Company, started getting left out in the cold.
1:08:30 Billy Corgan? That's crazy.
1:08:31 Speaker 01 Which only exacerbated this distance between us three and Brian. And then Bos said, this, I'm out. And he went because he, do you remember that movie, The Commitments? Where the horn player starts getting a bit jazzy? Instead of playing like the stadium, he's doing Charlie Parker.
1:08:51 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:08:51 Speaker 01 And all the others are going, okay, now what's that? Bos started becoming like Stanley Clarke and Jaco Pastore. And instead of doing
1:09:05 Speaker 01 We're going, what the is that Bos? He said, Squire, I'm just learning, man. And it wasn't fitting with, certainly not with Brian Howe, and they started butting heads. And, yeah, and it was spinal tap. So, so we languished and then we got in Robert Hart, who was much more like Paul Rodgers, great soul singer. But by then I was, I was well and truly tough. And I checked myself into rehab. Mick was having his own troubles and, and we just said enough, that's it, enough. And that was middle of nineties and then Paul Rodgers came back in nineteen ninety nine.
1:09:46 Billy Corgan? So I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I only knew the, the Bad Company version of I'm Ready for Love. I'd never heard the Mott version until not too long ago. And what's beautiful about that version, and I think the reason I didn't know it was Mott, was because Mick sings it. He's got this beautiful voice. Ian comes in and sings kind of the B section.
1:10:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, right.
1:10:11 Billy Corgan? So, God bless Mick, what a talented, cool.
1:10:16 Speaker 01 I really, I loved him the whole, whole life. And I've got to give a eulogy next week. We're having a memorial bash for him in Henley in Oxfordshire next week. I've got to deliver a eulogy, and Ian Hunter's eulogy that he's written. And we're going to play all the Mott, the Hoopla and Bad Company songs. It's going to be bittersweet.
1:10:37 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:10:38 Speaker 01 You know, because I miss the old, the old guy. But honestly, Billy, when someone has a stroke, as you know, the whole left side goes and he couldn't talk, very, very basic. And it was horrible to see him. And when I heard he finally passed away, I was kind of relieved because he was in, he was in hell and getting all choked up now.
1:11:02 Billy Corgan? God bless, yeah.
1:11:07 Speaker 01 But he left his mark, which is all we can ask of ourselves.
1:11:11 Billy Corgan? Well, the song, that's the beautiful thing, right?
1:11:13 Speaker 01 Yeah. Oh, when we first heard Ready for Love, Paul said, you gotta hear this song that Mick wrote. I said, well, what, all the young dudes? No, no, no. Ready for Love. And he played it on guitar, A minor. He starts with A minor.
1:11:27 Billy Corgan? What a cool song.
1:11:28 Speaker 01 Oh, I go, wow. And every time we did it, every night, that and Shooting Star, I would get a little teary. So, yeah, great song.
1:11:37 Billy Corgan? I had the forty five for rock and roll fans. I just want to say, the picture does. Okay, two more things. Congratulations, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
1:11:45 Speaker 01 Thank you.
1:11:45 Billy Corgan? Well deserved.
1:11:46 Speaker 01 Thank you, yeah.
1:11:47 Billy Corgan? Um, and then you have this, uh, I guess you call it tribute record coming out.
1:11:52 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:11:53 Billy Corgan? These are, these are not time specific, so it's, we're floating in time.
1:11:57 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:11:57 Billy Corgan? So by the time people see this, it'll probably be out, but it's, uh, can't get enough. But let me, let me look at my list, cause it's a cool, cool bunch of people you got on here. We're, oh, here we go. Uh, Hailstorm's on it. Paul Rodgers is singing too. Uh, Slash, Blackberry Smoke, The Struts, Joe and Philip Def Leppard, Pretty Reckless. Nice lineup for a tribute record.
1:12:19 Speaker 01 Well, I don't know some of them, I'll be honest.
1:12:21 Billy Corgan? Oh, really?
1:12:22 Speaker 01 No, I've never heard of Pretty Reckless or Hardy.
1:12:25 Billy Corgan? Well, Pretty Reckless is, uh, Taylor Momsen, incredible rock singer. Uh, Taylor was an actress, child actress that, that ended up following her passion into music. Great singer. Um, and, uh, they, they've been, I think they've been the exclusive, uh, act opening for ACDC for the last couple of years.
1:12:43 Speaker 01 Wow, okay.
1:12:44 Billy Corgan? So I saw them open for ACDC, I think, in a stadium in Cologne.
1:12:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:12:48 Billy Corgan? Not an easy gig, opened it for ACDC and they did a great job. So I think you'll be impressed with.
1:12:52 Speaker 01 Oh, I want to check it out. Um, well, someone did send me Hardy and Black Smoke.
1:12:58 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah.
1:12:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I was knocked out. Look, every, in, in interviews, I say, well, what do you think? I think it's great. I mean, it's an honor.
1:13:06 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:13:07 Speaker 01 To be part of a tribute.
1:13:08 Billy Corgan? Well, the beautiful thing is, is the world we live in now is, is sometimes it takes younger people. To connect younger fans to the to the older music. And but once they find it. And I think you'd be hard and we've just done a lot of touring over the last couple of years. And I would say sixty to seventy percent of our audience is now under twenty five.
1:13:27 Speaker 01 Wow.
1:13:28 Billy Corgan? Suddenly, all these young kids, they want to see rock guitar, rock played by people who play rock. So whatever that is, is there now.
1:13:36 Speaker 01 You know, and I'm not really blowing trumpets or whatever, but there's something about the music that we grew up in. We grew up with before computers came in, you know, it had more soul. Nowadays, it's all drum loops and beats and auto tune. There's a certain, there's a certain, I'm trying to think of the word. It's just not, it's not authentic, literally, it's not authentic. AI is spreading its poison, for want of a better word.
1:14:09 Billy Corgan? But that's gonna, that's just gonna.
1:14:11 Speaker 01 Well, there's bands out now, Velvet Sunset.
1:14:13 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:14:14 Speaker 01 They don't exist and they got three million Facebook followers. So, but.
1:14:18 Billy Corgan? We had it good.
1:14:19 Speaker 01 We had it good. We played with, with real, you know.
1:14:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:14:24 Speaker 01 With fire in our bellies.
1:14:26 Billy Corgan? Yeah, you know, I was trying to, just as a way to finish it.
1:14:30 Billy Corgan? I was thinking about the exact stuff you're talking about. And I was like, what's, what's the thing? What's the thing? And it's, it's, it's honestly, it's faith in the magic of music, right?
1:14:40 Speaker 01 Hmm, that's good.
1:14:42 Billy Corgan? You know what I mean?
1:14:42 Speaker 01 That's good.
1:14:43 Billy Corgan? I testified once in front of the US Congress about a rights issue. I'd been asked by.
1:14:49 Speaker 01 A what issue?
1:14:50 Billy Corgan? A music rights issue.
1:14:51 Speaker 01 Oh, music.
1:14:52 Billy Corgan? It was a really, it was, it was a hundred year old law that had never been fixed. And it was screwing musicians out of money.
1:14:59 Speaker 01 And.
1:15:00 Billy Corgan? And at one point, one of the congresspeople, who was obviously more in bed with the, the other side of the, the equation. Let's call it anti musician, said to me.
1:15:16 Billy Corgan? I don't understand why this is so important. And I, and I said, well,
1:15:23 Billy Corgan? if you listen to uh, my girl, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Okay, I said, any musician could go now and play that riff, play it more in tune and more in time. Why are people still listening to a 60 year old recording?
1:15:45 Billy Corgan? Because that musician that day, played it the way that from touches people.
1:15:51 Speaker 01 For sure.
1:15:52 Billy Corgan? And it's ultimately about rewarding those artists who get that lightning in a bottle.
1:15:57 Speaker 01 Very good.
1:15:57 Billy Corgan? And not sort of leaving them behind because of the laws and stuff like that. And I said, so the fact that we're still listening to that guy play, Dom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom. Tells you something that there's a value there. And I think it's the magic of that. And, and we were lucky because we grew up listening to Al Jackson and Smokey and Jimi Hendrix and whatever. And wow, when they made that magic, we're still like, we're still trying to figure out what they did.
1:16:24 Speaker 01 I still remember seeing Jimmy at the Albert Hall. And he couldn't.
1:16:30 Billy Corgan? Sixty seven?
1:16:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, he couldn't tune his guitar. And he said, and Eric was in the audience, Eric, can you come and tune my guitar?
1:16:38 Speaker 01 His G string, the G and B, as you know, are the crown jewels on the six string.
1:16:43 Billy Corgan? The strap.
1:16:43 Speaker 01 And they were flat because he would slur like three frets. And wonder why it was so flat when it came back to normal. But he managed, he was Jimi Hendrix for God's sake. And he couldn't tune his guitar, but he still remained remembered as one of the.
1:16:56 Billy Corgan? Last question.
1:16:57 Speaker 01 Go on.
1:16:58 Billy Corgan? Uh, greatest drummer you ever saw live?
1:17:00 Speaker 01 Buddy Rich. Honestly. I mean.
1:17:04 Billy Corgan? Shocking talent, right?
1:17:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:17:07 Billy Corgan? And he, and he knew it, which is the best.
1:17:08 Speaker 01 And I know, and I met him a couple of times and, and I was just in awe of him. But yeah, he had that, that ball and chain around his leg that he was not a nice guy, but my God, what a player. And Bonzo, you know, I saw Bon many, many times and he floored me with what he did. He was just.
1:17:29 Billy Corgan? I had dinner one night with Eddie Kramer, the great, the great producer.
1:17:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:17:33 Billy Corgan? And he said, you know, Billy, people have been asking me for 50 years, how you get that Bonzo drum sound, right? He goes, how about you just be fucking him, right? You know what I mean? He goes, he was a big bear of a man. He knew how to hit the drums and he knew how to tune the goddamn drums.
1:17:48 Speaker 01 But listen, I'll tell you a quick, quick story before you go. I was, I sat in with Jimmy, um, when he was mixing Coda.
1:17:55 Billy Corgan? Oh, wow.
1:17:55 Speaker 01 Okay. So they, he had this lovely studio down in Berkshire, Berkshire, but. And I, I sat in and he was mixing, cause you know, he mixed and produced all the Zep albums. And I, and, and we're listening to Bonzo.
1:18:14 Speaker 01 Wow. Suddenly he brings up the ambient mics to Sennheiser or Neumann, those lovely Neumann mics. Instead of, it's like.
1:18:28 Speaker 01 So, uh, not, not taking anything from Bonzo, but, but, but Jimmy's use of the ambient of the room mics.
1:18:35 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:18:36 Speaker 01 Was produce that really crunchy, the snare instead of being that was that. And, and a lot of crazy, but Bonzo, oh my God, what a drummer. He was just. He said, I want my drums to sound like cannons.
1:18:51 Billy Corgan? And well, he got there. All right.
1:18:53 Speaker 01 Thank you, Billy.
1:18:53 Billy Corgan? Thank you, son.
1:18:54 Speaker 01 God bless.
1:18:55 Billy Corgan? God bless.
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