Stephen Pearcy | The Magnificent Others

Stephen Pearcy, founder and frontman of Ratt, joins Billy Corgan for a conversation that swings from the near-fatal accident that first pushed him toward music to the creative vision that shaped Ratt’s distinctive sound alongside guitarist Robbin Crosby. They trace Pearcy’s all-out hustle through the LA club circuit, following Van Halen’s blueprint while drawing from unexpected influences like David Bowie, Blue Öyster Cult, and Adam Ant—elements that gave Ratt a melodic edge that set them apart from their metal contemporaries. Pearcy speaks candidly about internal fractures, the business decisions that changed everything, why he believes Ratt was uniquely positioned to survive the grunge era and what it means to be an OG of the ’80s scene still driven to perform decades later. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:00Speaker 02

  When we went out there, we were like fired up, man. I'm talking, you know, I would put up, I'd put my band up against anybody.

• 1:09Billy Corgan?

  When I first heard you sing and I first heard your band, I was like, this is different.

• 1:15Speaker 02

  Out of the blue Doug goes, "You can't play here anymore under the name Rat." And I go, "Why?" He goes, "Ah, it makes the club look bad."

• 1:23Billy Corgan?

  I was listening to a lot of hard rock at the time and I remember thinking, "This is weird." No, I remember thinking, "This is the kind of band I wanted to be in."

• 1:31Speaker 02

  I still go, "Wow, this is cool, man."

• 1:34Billy Corgan?

  Don't give it away, we got a market.

• 1:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:38Billy Corgan?

  Steven, thank you so much for being here. I've wanted you on my show for so long. So I'm very honored to have you here.

• 1:44Speaker 02

  Thank you, brother.

• 1:47Billy Corgan?

  With a rock and roll life, you can jump in at any point. But I think with you, the simplest way to do it, because there's some musical points I want to get at, is to kind of start at the beginning. San Diego area, late 50s.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  Uh, no, that would be, I was born in Long Beach, but anyway, end up in San...

• 2:04Billy Corgan?

  There's not a lot of great biographical information about you.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, and even in the book, there's another one coming someday, but, um...

• 2:13Speaker 02

  I ended up in, you know, Los Angeles and whatever. I wasn't, I listened to music, but wasn't.

• 2:18Billy Corgan?

  But I want to talk about your early life. Just, I'm not trying to cut you off. I'm just saying.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, right, right.

• 2:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, just give me your early life a bit because, you know.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  Well.

• 2:24Billy Corgan?

  So because, you know, for kids like us growing up in Chicago.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 2:28Billy Corgan?

  This part of the world was the magical land.

• 2:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:31Billy Corgan?

  You guys had Disneyland, you had sunshine, we didn't have any sunshine or Disneyland.

• 2:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35Billy Corgan?

  So there's kind of an idyllic version that we have from the Midwest of what.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  California.

• 2:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So I want you to give me your version as a kid.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Well, my, as a kid, God, you go to the beach, sleep overnight, surf, wake up, surf at five A, six AM, smoke a lot of pot and, you know, uh, you know, hang out, try to get the girls and, and it was cool because you could actually sleep on the beach and not worry about somebody plummeting you with like a baby seal.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  I wouldn't do it nowadays, you know. But, you know, you have your little gang and stuff and, and, and I got into racing really young. I'd always see a race car across the street from my school, a funny car, NHRI drag racing funny car. So I was like, wow. And I drew a lot. So I draw all, you know, and this and that.

• 3:27Speaker 02

  And go touch it and everything. And then we moved again in LA and there was another race car in the neighborhood. I'm like, well, this is interesting, right? So I go bother this guy.

• 3:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Next thing you know, we're moving to Westchester. I'm riding my bike. There's a dragster, right?

• 3:43Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 3:44Speaker 02

  I become friends with this guy and, and I'm like 14 and become his pit crew guy, right? It was crazy. Uh.

• 3:53Billy Corgan?

  This would have been like, wait a bit.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  Sixty, oh, eight, something like that. I was like, yeah, yeah. And I just got the bug for drag racing. It was like every weekend. It's loud, fast, exciting.

• 4:08Billy Corgan?

  And in that time, in American culture, drag racing had a huge, a much bigger place than it does now.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 4:14Billy Corgan?

  You think that's weird?

• 4:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:15Billy Corgan?

  It was kind of celebrated, Evel Knievel. There was a lot of that kind of daredevil.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Daredevilish. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. And these guys were nuts, drag racers.

• 4:23Billy Corgan?

  Especially back then.

• 4:23Speaker 02

  They were the real guy. Now it's, it's, it's, it's millions of dollars and, and.

• 4:29Billy Corgan?

  The roll cages, but back then they were.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  And it's not like when I was with them, you'd be sleeping under a truck going to a a race, you know, and that's what we did. And I was expected to go, I want to be a driver at sixteen. Well, that didn't happen. I went to San Diego. We ended up moving to San Diego. My mom had remarried. And we lived on this, this hilly area. Anyway, not even a year being there. Uh, I get run over by a car, you know, and break both legs and made a mess of me. And like, you're not gonna walk again, kinda stuff. And you're a kid going, holy shit.

• 5:07Billy Corgan?

  So, tell me back through that story, cause there's the information on, on what I could find was very sketchy on this. Cause, I think, uh, I have a theory that our lives are often defined by trauma, like they send us in a particular direction.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Uh, definitely.

• 5:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so you're just walking down the road, so he runs you over?

• 5:26Speaker 02

  No, I'm on a bike, leaving my friend's house. We're smoking out, you know, and I should do, and I'm on a bike and collision course. And anyway, it busted me up and I was like six months on my back in the hospital and, you know, wah wah wah. Anyway, through a lot of prayer and, you know, and wheelchair to gradually into crutches. Then I got into music. Somebody gave me a guitar, acoustic guitar.

• 5:53Billy Corgan?

  Just to give you something to do?

• 5:54Speaker 02

  In the hospital. So I'm like, oh, okay. And I kind of adapted to it, you know? And then when I got out and I was at home, all I could do was, you know, I was in a wheelchair and recuperating. So it was play. So I started playing. Then it was like, you know, really going to see the bands. The San Diego sports arena was real close. So.

• 6:18Billy Corgan?

  Who would you have seen in that?

• 6:19Speaker 02

  Oh, man, you see like Black Sabbath, Blue Aister Cult, Foghat one weekend, the next weekend you'd get Blue Aister Cult and so and so. They were always there. They almost seemed like every weekend. There was a concert, right? David Bowie. Uh, you know, it was great. So I really got into music. And then I started really playing guitar first, became a guitar player. And then somebody coaxed me into singing. And I started singing once in a while in bands, you know, you play at the beach.

• 6:50Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  You know, we play in the canyon.

• 6:52Billy Corgan?

  Once you figure out there's, there's, there's.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:55Billy Corgan?

  Excitement, attention, money and girls attached to it.

• 6:58Speaker 02

  Right, right. And free everything, you know. And which, which created the, the catastrophe. The band Rat.

• 7:09Billy Corgan?

  We'll get there, we'll get there.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  You know.

• 7:11Billy Corgan?

  Go, go.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  But so I'm, so I become this like, oh, okay, I'm singing. I'm just this long haired beach guy. Okay, they like my hair. So can you sing? It was like, just like, okay, nothing better to do, smoke a lot of pot and have fun. Go to the beach, sing with these bands and I got to play guitar. And then I started singing and playing guitar and then really getting into it. That was around 1976, 77.

• 7:35Billy Corgan?

  Can I stop you there for a second?

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:36Billy Corgan?

  Because um.

• 7:39Billy Corgan?

  When I first heard Rat and I'm not trying to jump ahead as much as I'm just trying to define why I want to talk about this so much. Um, I was a typical suburban Chicago heavy metal fan, uh, like a lot of us were in the Midwest. But when I first heard you sing and I first heard your band, I was like, this is different.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 7:59Billy Corgan?

  So in during, in doing, doing, in doing research to talk to you today.

• 8:05Billy Corgan?

  I saw references to Kiss, uh, Bowie. Gosh, I wrote them down. It's, it's good because I think it really, it kind of gave me a sense of. New York Dolls, Alice Cooper. All right. But I mean, who would, who would you, who would you say kind of gave you that? Non-typical hard rock influence because I've always heard that in your music.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:28Billy Corgan?

  Even to today, I hear your music. Well, because most heavy metal guys or rock guys or whatever.

• 8:34Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 8:34Billy Corgan?

  It's the, in a weird way, they have almost a limited set of influences. Where your influences, I, I always felt, so I want you to kind of tell me.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  They were broad.

• 8:42Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So give me some of those so I can understand.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  When I, you know, I bought Jeff Beck Blow by Blow, the album. I liked live albums. I'd buy Jimmy Hendrix Live, Led Zeppelin Live. And then until when I saw Zeppelin, forget it. It was.

• 8:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  In 73, I, it was over. It was like, whoa. Enlightened, right?

• 9:03Billy Corgan?

  So the musician in you circa seventy six, seventy seven, what would you define what it was you were hoping to do? Or was it still too soon to figure that out?

• 9:11Speaker 02

  No, because we had backyard parties, you charge a buck and, you know, and you needed better gear. So we started, I started figuring out the, the, the little business aspect of it, you know? And, you know, in doing so, anyway, um, I was really into Bluester Cult, believe it or not, like hardcore. I think some of my chords and stuff that I write with are Bluester Cultish.

• 9:35Billy Corgan?

  Very interesting.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  I don't know why.

• 9:37Billy Corgan?

  Very, very interesting guitar band.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  And sweet.

• 9:39Billy Corgan?

  Okay. See, that's what I'm saying, the glam kind of part of your.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  And Bowie, Ziggy Stardust, forget about it. And, uh.

• 9:46Billy Corgan?

  But you know, you know, most rock guys, if you sat down and talked to them, they know who Bowie is, but they didn't sit there and listen to Ziggy Stardust.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 9:53Billy Corgan?

  But I always heard that in your music.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:56Billy Corgan?

  You brought a broader kind of glammy sense.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. And you know, I had a direction and when I, when I started really Mickey Rat, we actually became a band like, I'm gonna do this for real.

• 10:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  That was seventy, uh,

• 10:12Speaker 02

  late seventy eight, seventy nine, going through a couple of guys, whatever. And then I became this singer guitar, rhythm guitar player guy, and I liked it. I didn't want a noodle. I didn't want to, you know? So that's where the Kiss thing came in. I'll be that Paul Stanley guy, you know, and I'll play guitar and, and I'll be, you'll be the lead guitar player like Buck Dharma, which my guitar player was, lead guitar player, um, at that time.

• 10:36Billy Corgan?

  So you had a vision of it rhythmically from you here and then?

• 10:39Speaker 02

  And then when a friend of mine kept hounding me, we were living in San Diego, we were playing big gigs. I mean, Mickey Rat was, you know, we had no competition. Robin had his band Phenomenon, J K Lee had his band Teaser.

• 10:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Warren had his band Exciter. And then I had Mickey Rat and there were other bands that were kind of big, but Mickey Rat kind of became a big band. We played all the Golden Hall, Plaza Hall, Bing Crosby Hall, we were playing in big places. But nothing was happening, right? So a friend of mine, I mean, you think about, wow, I want to be on a record, you know? I want to record. And to this day, I still record off the cassette or anything I can find, you know, preferably a cassette, you know, normal. And I started doing that back then. So a little off the track here. So I kind of, when a friend told me, you gotta see this band in LA called Van Halen. I was like, all right, okay, okay, Van Halen, another band. Okay.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  We had gone up there before and saw Quiet Riot and made trips here and there just to see. But the day I went out by myself, I drove out by myself and I don't know if I brought gear or anything, um, a pocket of weed. And I knew there was a backstage at the whiskey. My friend said, there's a backstage. They go up this, you know, these things. We had not played there. I mean, Mickey Rats, 70, this was 78.

• 12:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  So lo and behold, I see, you know, true story. It's a bitchin', because it was, it's so surreal. I, you know, I, I kick myself sometimes and go, you know, the kind of you've seen and, and, and it was like, no big deal. But it wasn't. It was a big effect in my life. I saw David Lee walking up steps. I said, that might be doing, hey, you want to smoke a joint? I'm yelling at this guy.

• 12:30Billy Corgan?

  Right guy, right guy, right guy to ask.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  Right guy to ask, right. I wasn't interested in him. My friend went, you gotta see the guitar player, because we were, I was a guitar guy. So anyway, I smoked a joint with him and I go, later, where's the guitar guy? And I'm tripping around the whiskey backstage by myself, you know, I was ready for anything. And, and there's Ed, right? I go, you're the guitar guy, right? And, and yeah, and somehow we just connected and just started talking, right? And we're talking about equipment. I go, yeah, I love Vox. I got an old Vox 30. And he just lit up like a firecracker, you know? He goes, well, I got one and I need another one. Can we exchange numbers? You come up to LA, come to my pad and bring it?

• 13:13Speaker 02

  And I go, what are you, nuts? I, I just got done watching something that was like a circus. You know, you're looking at Dave and I'm like, I don't want, I gotta figure out my, my system, what I'm actually gonna do in this business. Be a singer, be a guitar singer guy.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  So anyway, when I saw that four piece, I went, okay, anyway, next. And then a whole new world began and.

• 13:41Billy Corgan?

  So if I'm following your flow here, Van Halen helped you define like, okay, if this is going to be the standard, if this is what's coming, I gotta get serious and I need to figure out who I am in this game.

• 13:52Speaker 02

  100%. I went, I'm moving to LA. And I went January 1, 1980, who's going, we're living in a garage about the size. And we're going to practice there and I'm going to hustle and get a skid.

• 14:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  And that's exactly what I did. And, and but in the meantime, I kept going up to the ed and, and you know, and saw their whole. Blossom into the biggest band on the planet. I saw, I was like, holy, this festival, I mean, backstage, you go in, this is, I mean, whoa.

• 14:28Billy Corgan?

  It was, it was bonkers. Yeah.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  Mickey Rat, come on, you gotta do something different. So anyway, as my band was, Mickey Rat was imploding around 1981, Jakey was in the band, he left. And.

• 14:42Billy Corgan?

  Can I stop you there for one second before we get to Robbin Crosby?

• 14:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:47Billy Corgan?

  I mean, Jake's obviously a phenomenal guitar player, but I'm just curious because, you know, you guys did the single Doctor, Doctor Rock.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  He's not on it and he didn't write. People think he did, but no.

• 14:57Billy Corgan?

  Cause everywhere you look, he says he's on it. Okay. So set aside Jake, nothing against Jake, but like, was Doctor Rock sort of the first time where it's like, it's serious, you're putting out a single?

• 15:06Speaker 02

  I have to put out a single.

• 15:07Billy Corgan?

  It feels serious.

• 15:08Speaker 02

  100%.

• 15:09Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  And we, and I found a studio in Venice, California, cause we lived in Culver City.

• 15:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  And that wasn't, we weren't into Rat Mansion West yet, the one bedroom apartment, right? We were still in the hut. So. And anyway.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  Where were we?

• 15:27Billy Corgan?

  Well, it's something about Dr. Rock to me. I'm, you know, cause I'm, I'm, I'm a fan from the beginning. So I, you know, but it's interesting to go back and follow the bouncing ball, right? You know what's coming, but it's like, okay, at what point does this thing kind of get serious and click in?

• 15:41Speaker 02

  As soon as I moved into town because I had been watching Van Halen from 78 to 1980.

• 15:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:48Speaker 02

  And I went, I saw what they did. They went to Gazartis. They became the house band. Then they worked their way to the whiskey, became the house band. And that's exactly what I did.

• 15:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:58Speaker 02

  I followed their schematic. I was taking notes, man. I was looking at the lights, the clothes. And then going back to San Diego, people were going, Mickey Rat's crazy, you know? Well, I'm learning some things, you know?

• 16:11Billy Corgan?

  But Dr. Dr. Rock seems to be the first time you, you step forward as a fan of your music. It seems the first, first time it's like, okay, there it is.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  I have to write a song.

• 16:20Billy Corgan?

  No, but, but also there it is.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  There it is.

• 16:22Billy Corgan?

  Like there's the foundational formula, what ends up being a huge.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  I couldn't get in the door. I tried to get gigs, you know, I was walking around. I was my own agent. I didn't know anything, you know?

• 16:30Billy Corgan?

  But, but it's, but, but I, I, I love music in that it's interesting to watch. Like there's that moment where Jimi Hendrix becomes Jimi Hendrix.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:38Billy Corgan?

  Like you see clips of him playing behind Little Richard or something. And you're like, there's Jimi Hendrix. Like, but he ain't Jimi Hendrix yet.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 16:44Billy Corgan?

  It isn't until he goes to England and he works with, you know, Chas Chandler and so it all happens. Jimmy Page was a studio musician.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, right, right. John Paul Jones.

• 16:52Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean? He, he needs a, he's in the, he ends up being in the Yardbirds. He needs a lead singer. He asked Steve Marriott to join. Steve Marriott tells, says, no, thanks. Cause I'm Steve Marriott.

• 17:03Speaker 02

  People did, right?

• 17:03Billy Corgan?

  Right. I don't need you. I mean, he's Steve Marriott.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:06Billy Corgan?

  He goes out and finds Robert Plant at 19 and John Bonham just happens to be attached to the singer.

• 17:10Speaker 02

  Isn't that crazy?

• 17:11Billy Corgan?

  Always interesting when, when things are successful, you can find that moment where it sort of clicks.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  Kind of, oh, well, it happened with us. With us, it happened, you know? We had a good thing with Jake, but he just wanted to be a one guitar guy. But I, I heard two guitars in my songs. So when I wrote Driving on E and Dr. Rock, we, we just had to have something to get in the door. Here, this is my band. Have a photo. So I, you know, I did whatever I could, but.

• 17:38Billy Corgan?

  No, is it, is it Rat or Mickey Rat?

• 17:40Speaker 02

  It was, it was Mickey Rat, but Rat was bigger, you know? I was trying to make that transformation. And the reason that came about is where the kiss thing again comes in is I loved their logo. That it was just one thing, four things, and I went rat.

• 17:58Billy Corgan?

  And rat's such a great band name.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  It's trippy.

• 18:00Billy Corgan?

  How did no one think of it before?

• 18:02Speaker 02

  I know, yeah, and, and so I designed the logo and, and it went through whatever way. But anyway, where it really clicked was, you know, when Robin used to come to our shows a lot because his band imploded when he brought it to LA and my band was getting ready to implode. So when Jakey finally left to do Dio or whatever it was, and then he got Oz.

• 18:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  But Robin used to always come to our gigs and, and force his way on stage and play. He just wanted to play because he was living in LA, his band abandoned him, right? Uh, uh, so he was like a mainstay and then we were always tripping around, me and Robin, going to see the new bands, Motley, you know, etc. And, and then it was like, you know what, one night Robin and I just went, let's start this band.

• 18:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  Let's be really serious about this and start, let's start Mickey Rat. And I went, I mean rat, and I went, let's go. And there you go, the phone calls started happening.

• 19:02Billy Corgan?

  Because before Robin shows up in your life as a musician,

• 19:07Billy Corgan?

  I can certainly hear what you were going for. But something about the way Robin played guitar and wrote riffs seems to suddenly like click.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:16Billy Corgan?

  Did you feel that?

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, because Mickey Rat music was, is different than rap music.

• 19:21Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  You know, it's almost like my solo stuff. Um, I like to go all over the place. Um, but with Mickey, with, with Rat, we, Robin and I, we knew, it was almost like we wrote out, wrote it out. We need an image, we need to do this.

• 19:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  And it was that time, you know, uh, 81, you know, 82, the whole European maiden leopard, uh, Motley was happening, we became friends and we, everybody started getting a little showy, showy, so, you know, and of course we love Aerosmith. That's why we do Walking the Dog.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  And so I heard two guitars and Robin heard two guitars and Robin was happy being this guitar guy, just holding down there because he, you know, when you mentioned Hendrix, he would, he would go places, you know, and then you have Warren and then when we got Warren, everything changed, you know? And then it was almost like overnight on a cellar tour, that guy just became this wow brilliant guitarist.

• 20:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  You know, Warren and we just clicked the way we wrote. It's like, what do you got? Like round and round. It was written at Rat Mansion West, sitting around two tape recorders with guitars and me just go da, da, da, da, da. And so we kind of uh, uh, created a system of writing, you know?

• 20:54Billy Corgan?

  Can you walk me through that? Cause I love, I love this stuff.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  It would be like, you know, who's got what because it was four guys.

• 21:00Billy Corgan?

  And are you writing riffs too?

• 21:01Speaker 02

  Oh, a hundred percent.

• 21:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Probably, uh, yeah, I would say something that, you know, but yeah, a lot of the riffs, I would come in with riffs and let them do what they do, you know?

• 21:12Billy Corgan?

  Was it fair to say, because I love the way Robin plays guitar?

• 21:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:16Billy Corgan?

  Is it fair to say that even if you wrote the riff, the way Robin plays, it becomes like, that's the sound?

• 21:21Speaker 02

  A hundred percent with, with Warren now.

• 21:23Billy Corgan?

  No, I get that, but, but, but, but. And I didn't really realize it as, cause again, I, I've been listening to you literally since, well, we'll get to that in a second. No, no, well, not day one, but close. Uh, there's something about the way Robin plays guitar.

• 21:40Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 21:41Billy Corgan?

  Warren plays leads and the kind of the glam influence sort of pipe through early eighties LA sunset strip music. It's like, there it is. And when you guys click, it's like, that's the sound.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  Okay. See that turned, it turned to that with, I, I'd have to say a lot of my direction because these guys were all over the place. I'd have to, I was pretty much. Uh, arranging things around.

• 22:06Billy Corgan?

  But that's why I was asking about early influence because when I went back and listened to the early stuff, I hear you doing rap before rap.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 22:13Billy Corgan?

  But isn't it, isn't it interesting that you had the blueprint?

• 22:16Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 22:17Billy Corgan?

  You had the sort of vision of what you were after.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  I didn't have the components.

• 22:21Billy Corgan?

  Well, but again, you know how it is with musicians, you can, you can bring one drummer in a room and say, hey, play this beat.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:28Billy Corgan?

  And it does nothing for you.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 22:29Billy Corgan?

  And another drummer will come and play the exact same beat and you go.

• 22:32Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 22:32Billy Corgan?

  That's it.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:34Billy Corgan?

  So something about the way Robin, even if Robin was playing your riffs, something about.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, a hundred percent.

• 22:39Billy Corgan?

  Hit, it's like, it's so stark to me once I think it through.

• 22:44Speaker 02

  You know, Robin was a huge Hendrix fan. He was huge Scorpions. He listened to stuff that was like, you know, I mean, he went up there and abused his guitars, you know? He, there's no, he started out being the main guy. And Warren got so good so fast, we kind of went, well, we're gonna make Warren. I mean, we actually thought out our moves, Robin and me for the band. We're gonna make Warren the guy now.

• 23:10Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  That you're gonna, I'm gonna kick back and be the rhythm guy.

• 23:13Billy Corgan?

  Not a bad decision.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  And, and we put him in the forefront because he was progressing like just.

• 23:19Billy Corgan?

  He's phenomenal musician.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  You know, slow down, you know?

• 23:23Billy Corgan?

  Even now, even if you watch, because I'll, I'll, sometimes I'll check in on what you guys are up to.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  And.

• 23:27Billy Corgan?

  I'll see clips of him playing now, 2025.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Well, I gotta tell you, it's, it's, it's so crazy, but you know, and then here we are, we can get into that. You know, years later and, and it's like the 19, it's like being on stage in 1980s again. I, I mean, there was the guy, right?

• 23:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  There's my guy.

• 23:50Billy Corgan?

  But he, he plays at such a phenomenally high level.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  Uh huh. And we, we cover each other on stage, you know, if I'm up or misses something, he'll give you a kick, you know? I mean, nothing's changed out there. And we laugh just like this. We go, oh, that's funny.

• 24:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  Or we have a little chat up there going, this is. Insane, you know, you know, you know those moments, you know?

• 24:10Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah. It's like, uh, it's time, there's no time passes, but then here you are and you're still in this garage somewhere. Yeah.

• 24:17Speaker 02

  Right. It's surreal.

• 24:18Billy Corgan?

  Let me ask you this question. Um, because you'd spent years trying to put together what became Rat. Now, it's easy to say, it's like, well, there's the success, but obviously it just didn't happen in a hot second, but

• 24:29Speaker 02

  No.

• 24:30Billy Corgan?

  Was there, was there something you were looking for in the people you were working with? Like, was it a focus or a dedication or a musical vision or is, or was it right?

• 24:38Speaker 02

  It was, it was dedication and, and what happens with success besides excess? Is the other cess. And that's the one to, you know, where you spit out for a while and you don't know who's doing what. Everybody's in their own world and it just ain't gonna work, you know?

• 25:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  And then the tires start falling off and, and that's what happened and, and, you know, but he, like I say, when Warren's up there, like now, we, we did the invasion celebration, playing the music of Rat. Everybody's like, why isn't that Rat? I'm like, that's not the point. The point is Warren and I have, the main guy, two main guys haven't seen each other in eight years. Can we get acquainted? You know, before we start talking about a Rat, you know, because as far as I'm concerned, it's Rat. You know, all I can do, we can do is play the music. And I knew when Robin, to be honest, and I say it all the time, is

• 25:42Speaker 02

  I knew when Robin was going down and, and he finally passed, that was it. I knew it. I went, well, we did it.

• 25:50Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  You know, and went into my stupor for a bunch of years and, uh, and came out of it years later and, and, but, you know, you don't need. Forty years later, it's like you look at what's happening with the eighties scene right now, which really trips me out. It's very commercial now. It's like beyond commercial. It's hair metal now, you know?

• 26:17Billy Corgan?

  Sure, whatever they call it today.

• 26:18Speaker 02

  It's punk, it's this. So I tell peers, hey, man, embrace that. If you're not in in the hair metal scene forty years later, you know, you should you should be lucky, you know, because bands are out there with one guy and.

• 26:37Billy Corgan?

  Well, Rudy Sarzo, who sat in that very chair.

• 26:40Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 26:40Billy Corgan?

  You know, he's out there with Quiet Riot. Rudy's the greatest.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  And and you see, he's I I get it. I get it.

• 26:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  You know, it it.

• 26:48Billy Corgan?

  And you know, you know what it is. At the end of the day, it's about the music, right?

• 26:50Speaker 02

  Sure. And and it's supposed to have, you know, I have so much fun out there now, the last how many years, uh, because we have a whole new direction. Everybody's like I was saying out there, there's business and then there's business, business. You know, um, and granted, if it's there, I'll do the business business because I like the music business. I like a lot of it. I don't like that. Nobody can make money anymore. Nobody can make, you know, make records.

• 27:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  Why are you afraid to make a record? It's like, I'll make them all day long, you know, I write every day. What are you gonna do with this?

• 27:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  You know, I already have enough of it sitting around, you know?

• 27:37Speaker 02

  But, you know, I gotta tell you, this whole scene, how like we were mentioning out there, it's the comeback or whatever you want to call it, the eighties is so huge, you know?

• 27:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  These people really loved that time, you know?

• 27:53Billy Corgan?

  Well, I never had a problem with it. I mean, I was considered part of the generation that helped kill the eighties music, but I love that music.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, right? But yeah, why not? And now a lot of those guys, I mean, who was it recently was playing Round and Round? I got a clip of it. Anthrax.

• 28:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  And I go, I'm gonna sing that with you guys. We're really nuts. And I told them too, you know, I'm that I I love that. If I like, you know, want to get a kick, I'll go, which I do, I'll go, you know? I had the story about Duran Duran and I go, you know, I'm gonna re-record Girls on Film and send it to Simon. That's what I did. Just to have fun. Or, I want to do Wander. I've always liked that song. Let's go play it. That's what I love about my guys, you know?

• 28:40Billy Corgan?

  But that's what I, that's what I was trying to set up before is this idea that I think the endurance of your music, because as you know, when you've had success, people tend to focus on one particular period of time. I deal with it too. And it's, at the end of the day, it's great. It's fine. But, but

• 28:55Speaker 02

  But there's more to it.

• 28:57Billy Corgan?

  There's way, way more to it.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  Way more to it. Because I listened to it and play music that people would go, what? You know, and I'm gonna take it there on this next record, like I told you, you know, hope, you and I could get something there, but

• 29:11Billy Corgan?

  Don't, don't give it away. We got a market.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And, and, but nowadays, I, you know, I've slowed down a bit, but I still like going out there. To me, it's like exercise.

• 29:22Billy Corgan?

  It's an interesting odyssey in your musical life that you ended up on Metal Massacre 1 for Metal Blade.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Isn't that crazy?

• 29:29Billy Corgan?

  With Metallica and Steeler.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  And they re-released actually recently. You know, I'm gonna, I was gonna bring you something, The Reach for the Sky 45, the single I found 40 years later. But Metal Massacre, you know, when that went down, I was telling Brian, see, you know, it was a trip. As, as I would be strolling down the strip, trying to get gigs, right? Bang on the Troubadour in the day. No, I would see Rick Rubin and I'd see Brian doing the exact same thing, hustling.

• 30:03Billy Corgan?

  Hustling.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  And, and then years later, I'm like, holy, there's that dude we used to trip and bump into. Hey, wait a minute. I used to bump into Rick Rubin all the time, you know?

• 30:13Billy Corgan?

  So you were the one knocking on the doors, getting the gigs?

• 30:15Speaker 02

  I was the one hustling, taking care of business and, you know, it was a trip. Let me tell you, you know, it wasn't always like

• 30:22Billy Corgan?

  Give me the, like, you're in an unknown band-ish.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  You know, and I'm going, hey, they go, well, I'll tell you, trip is a story. Look, Troubadour, right? Alright, so it's like

• 30:31Billy Corgan?

  You guys at the Troubadour just blows my mind.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was at the Troubadour. So we start playing, you know, I want a gig at the Troubadour. So anyway, they go, well, you gotta go to the guy's house. I'm like, okay, who? Doug Weston. I don't know this guy.

• 30:45Billy Corgan?

  Well, it says, it says on the site, Doug Weston.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  Well, let me tell you, he was a wacky And anyway, I got in and out of that house as fast as I could, but I left my, well, lo and behold.

• 30:57Billy Corgan?

  Why did you run? Okay, wait, why did you run out of the house?

• 30:59Speaker 02

  It was too just not right. You know, when you have that feeling like this is a trip because we used to trip around with Motley and those guys in the, in the, you know, you'd be on a bus at three thirty in the morning trying to go to, to back to the garage, you know? And you'd see some weird, or end up at a weird party, those guys and us and chicks with dicks. I mean, you know, I just, just wacky, right? But Hollywood, you go, eh, it's Hollywood. So anyway, that was my first thing. So I get into the Troubadour, right? And people knew us, you know, and we brought in some people, but we had to play at like, how many stages did he have there?

• 31:43Speaker 02

  He had one, two, one, and then the main one was the one you wanted. Um, but we ended up playing there and then at, we played there about a half a dozen times. And out of the blue Doug goes, you can't play anymore here anymore under the name Rat. And I go, why? He goes, ah, it makes the club look bad. And I'm like, God, are you kidding me? So, you know, Motley guys and a couple of the Rat guys, you know, me, Robin, we used to run around and call ourselves the Gladiators, right? And, you know, cause trouble. So anyway, I go, all right, Doug, I'll play here under the name Gladiators. Full blown, have the ticket still, but there's a Rat stamp on it. Yeah. And we had a line sold out.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  And then he went, okay, you can come back as Rat. And I go, Doug, I don't want to play here anymore, man. The whiskey's my gig. That's the next step. Boing, boing, you know?

• 32:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  Because if you play here, you can't play there a month later, two months later, you know, whatever. But it was kind of cool. And, and lo and behold, I got my way into the whiskey and followed the schematic and it worked, you know?

• 32:49Billy Corgan?

  Talk a little bit about the, uh, the first EP. Um, was that on Atlantic or you guys did on your own, right?

• 32:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, we did it Marshall.

• 32:58Billy Corgan?

  It later came out. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's, that's why I get confused.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. He was like, you guys need a record. Motley had just put out Too Fast For Love. Uh,

• 33:07Billy Corgan?

  And they were selling out of their trunk and yeah.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  Doing good. Motley was. And we were right behind him.

• 33:13Billy Corgan?

  Who financed the record?

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Um, a partner of Marshall's and it was only, it didn't cost much. We went in there over Thanksgiving weekend, if correct. Bobby knows everything. I was, you know, but I think it was over Thanksgiving weekend or something. And we went in, recorded, next day mixed and it was done.

• 33:32Billy Corgan?

  Oh, one day?

• 33:34Speaker 02

  Pretty much. A couple of day, a weekend, uh, uh, event. And that was it, but it was us live. That was, we were recording live in there and it, uh, that record is so bad. I, I still want to try to get it, um, out or I will, I'll get it out. Um.

• 33:52Billy Corgan?

  What's prohibiting it coming out or being reissued or?

• 33:55Speaker 02

  Well, yeah. Some things need to be finalized, you know?

• 34:01Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  Before, but it's out there. So it's like, whoa, it's not even going to make a difference if I put it out there. You know, it's already there. People had it, you know?

• 34:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  Forty, forty-three years later.

• 34:12Billy Corgan?

  So here's where I come into your story. Somehow I'm in Chicago, living in a basement. Nineteen eighty-three, I believe is the year. And somehow I get the, you think you're tough.

• 34:22Speaker 02

  Same.

• 34:22Billy Corgan?

  Seven inch.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 34:24Billy Corgan?

  So that's the first time I ever heard rap.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 34:26Billy Corgan?

  Before the first album.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  Then you got the Atlantic.

• 34:31Billy Corgan?

  No, I got the.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, we re-released it.

• 34:32Billy Corgan?

  I know, but I got the, I got the.

• 34:34Speaker 02

  Wow, the single.

• 34:35Billy Corgan?

  The, on the original vinyl, the original label, Time Lapse or?

• 34:38Speaker 02

  Oh, Time Coast.

• 34:39Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  Oh, keep it. Keep it. There's only so many of those.

• 34:43Billy Corgan?

  So somehow, somehow one of those found its way to me.

• 34:46Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 34:48Billy Corgan?

  And I, and I was listening to a lot of hard rock at the time and I remember thinking.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  This is weird.

• 34:53Billy Corgan?

  No, I remember thinking, this is the kind of band I want to be in because, because, no, because it had those other influences.

• 35:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:01Billy Corgan?

  You know, the, the, the knock and heavy metal, and I love heavy metal.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:04Billy Corgan?

  So yell at me if you want, not you.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 35:06Billy Corgan?

  Them. But, but, but, you know, the knock and heavy metal from people don't left heavy metal is stupid.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:12Billy Corgan?

  Or it's too much about Vikings and.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, right, right.

• 35:14Billy Corgan?

  But your music didn't, it sounded, because I was also listening to Adam Ant and.

• 35:19Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 35:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So I'm listening to this and I'm like. This is different, but I couldn't, you know, it's whatever I was 15, I couldn't.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  Different, I'm telling you dude, Adam Ant was a, a, a big influence on, and I hate to say it, Duran Duran, because I love fashion and.

• 35:36Billy Corgan?

  Is it, is it influenced kind of the way you used to sing up top? Cause you, you, you didn't sing like, when you're, when your voice is high, you don't sing like a lot of rock singers. You almost sing more like an alternative singer. I hope you know what I mean by the genres.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  I would say maybe, yeah.

• 35:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, alternative singers sing a more, a little bit more emotionally.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 35:54Billy Corgan?

  It's not about hitting the big note or being tough.

• 35:57Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, right. I, I.

• 35:58Billy Corgan?

  It's more of a vibe. That's why when you think Adam Ant, the way he sings is up high, it's more of a thing. So when I think of you up high, it's like a thing. Does that make sense? I know we're not talking music language.

• 36:07Speaker 02

  I don't know if it would make sense to somebody else, but to us, it makes sense.

• 36:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  You know, um, but it, it's weird. I tell people, Adam Ant, yeah, I mean, I, I got turned on to them in like 82.

• 36:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, 82.

• 36:23Speaker 02

  Before, you know, one, and I'd go to these dance clubs, it'd be Duran Duran.

• 36:27Billy Corgan?

  Stand and deliver.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  All of that. And it was so bitchin'. I go, and then, and then when the image thing came around, we were kind of fashiony. You could think, what are they trying to, heavy metal Duran Duran? Now, I was like trying to do anything, right? Find our niche. We didn't want to be the leather studs. We already went there.

• 36:45Billy Corgan?

  But even I remember seeing you on television, early eighties, um, and you looked more alternative to me.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, we did. We did.

• 36:52Billy Corgan?

  But I'm saying you in particular.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I like.

• 36:56Billy Corgan?

  Was that conscious in your mind or was that just who you were?

• 36:59Speaker 02

  No, what was conscious was we wanted to look different. We wanted to look like our, a gang, you know? Like Motley had their own little thing, you know? We wanted all of us just to look like a gang, you know, like, uh, pirates, you know? And, and that was our cement, you know, our image came up and Robin and I, uh, kind of created, you know? We were cement pirates, man, you know? And, and, uh, so we might as well look it, you know?

• 37:28Billy Corgan?

  Cement pirates, I like that.

• 37:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, right? Walking up and down the strip in your, in your ship. But at one time, we were getting a little fashiony and actually fashion metal. I, I, it was, we tried it. I, I, you know, you do what you have to do because the OG guys in the eighties scene, believe it or not, were people from Metal Massacre. They were Armored Saint, uh, uh, Bitch, Rat, Wasp, Motley. Uh, there were other bands, Snow, there was not Snow, um, Venice, there were plenty of other bands that were huge that didn't make it. But the OGs, it's really interesting to think about it. You know, I don't know if Betsy Bitch is on there or Bitch is on that one.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  But Metallica, I mean, we did a couple of gigs of Metallica, you know, one at a roller rink, Billy Barde's roller rink, you know? Billy Barde, wow. Billy Barde's roller rink, uh, uh, Metallica and Rat. How about that? And then we played together with Saxon. And that's really what kind of opened the door for us, you know? How did the, how did the, the harder rock metal fans see you guys at that time? Were they cool with you or they, or were you too melodic? Cause? Interesting. Um, no, because when we went out there, we were like fired up, man. I'm talking, you know, I would put up, I'd put my band up against anybody.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, dancers like, you want to go there? Let's go, you know, get up and it was all about just, you know, and, and we were heavy. Oh, you, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. When I heard you think you're tough, I'm like, it's heavy, but it's cool. Really melodic, right? But it's cool too. Yeah, yeah. It has a swagger or something. Yeah. You could talk about Rob- Robin's writing. That's Robin. I just arranged it and did the lyrics. What a riff. You know, I know, right? And we probably got in trouble for that too. Cause you'd go see bands, right? Yeah. As a matter of fact, I think we did, but. Oh, tell me, tell me. Well, I think, I actually know the band too.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  We, Robin and I went to Orange County to see, uh, who was it? Probably Wasp and some other band. Oh, what was their name? But they had a riff like that and I think Robin kind of took it in and really not going, you know, and just turn, well.

• 40:00Speaker 02

  Knock, knock. Uh, here you've swiped our song.

• 40:04Billy Corgan?

  And. But you can't really copyright a riff, I think. I think that's my, that's my legal understanding. I'm not a lawyer, but.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can't trademark, uh, your name, um, what is it? Song titles, uh?

• 40:17Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 40:18Speaker 02

  That's what it is. But, uh, yeah, but anyway, we got, we got slapped, but it was a great song. I remember the first time hearing that again, Rob, Rob and I were all always out on the strip, right? Always doing a scene. And I remember we're coming home from, uh, who knows where? And you think your top comes on, uh, one of the big stations, KMET. We're like, whoa, the, you know, song's on the radio. Yeah. And then we turn it to another stage. It's on again, right? And we're just looked at each other and went, okay, here we go.

• 40:56Billy Corgan?

  Was, there's, you know, unfortunately, when people think of Robin's life, they often think about his issues with addiction. And obviously his health issues, but, but, you know, you're standing at, let's say, let's say you were right at the moment before you guys take off. And when you take off, you take off like a rock.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:13Billy Corgan?

  Was he having issues at that point? Or was he just, everybody was just partying and it was just?

• 41:17Speaker 02

  Everybody was just everybody. Nothing changed. I mean, we were just the way we were.

• 41:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  I mean, all of us, all five of us, you know, no one of us can say, no, I had my together.

• 41:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  If it wasn't for, uh, actually Marshall, keeping everybody in line for as long as he, he did. And I talk to him to this day.

• 41:37Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  You know, and because we shared some crazy moments, man, you know, he headline Madison Square Garden, you know, you do that kind of. And to be honest with you, I, and I say this, and I've said it before, I don't remember. A lot of those years, it's almost like it never existed.

• 41:57Billy Corgan?

  Is it because you were messed up or is it just a blur?

• 41:59Speaker 02

  No.

• 42:00Billy Corgan?

  Was it just a blur?

• 42:01Speaker 02

  It was, it was just a blur. I, I, I acknowledged some great things like headlining home, you know, your arena at San Diego or The Forum or, or Madison, but anything else in between? It's like wiped from my memory and it's no, I'm, I'm being serious.

• 42:21Billy Corgan?

  Well, why, do you have a reason for that, you think?

• 42:23Speaker 02

  No, it's just that was just, um, you know, somebody put something out about the life of musicians recently and I sent it to Christie. Actually, I go, here, check this out. We were just talking about it.

• 42:34Billy Corgan?

  Christie's your wife?

• 42:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. How weird it is for musicians. You know, you're, you're in front of however many thousands of people and all of a sudden, you're in a room, silent. Well, I think.

• 42:46Billy Corgan?

  Except for the whistling in your ear, but.

• 42:47Speaker 02

  Right? And, and because there were times we couldn't go out and, and especially when you're like in Japan and stuff. And it's just like surreal. It's almost like, is this really going down? You know, I get it. We're popular and whatever, but some of this is kind of funny, you know? Um, so I kind of may be out there, but I, I don't. And I tell people sometimes I go, man, you I don't know what happened, but I, I lived through it, you know?

• 43:17Billy Corgan?

  All right. Well, let's light the fuse on the rocket.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:20Billy Corgan?

  We're lighting the fuse on the rocket.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:22Billy Corgan?

  So Atlantic shows up at some point.

• 43:23Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 43:24Billy Corgan?

  Tell me, tell me, tell me that day.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  Uh, Beverly Theater, if I'm correct, uh, we have a showcase and I don't know if it's one of the lead or forward opening, but, uh, uh, we had some Atlantic guys come down because we were drawing big. Motley had, man, next step, went to the next step, opening up for Ozzy and Arena, whatever. And we were next, you know, we couldn't play in LA anymore. We played Santa Monica Civic. We played here. Well, we're gonna play. Can't play it anywhere. Okay. So we showcased at Billy Theater, great gig. Atlantic was there and they signed us on the spot.

• 44:05Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was that crazy. And me and, you know, Robin and I would be going, if it's good enough for Zeppelin and the Stones, it's good enough for Rat. And off we went.

• 44:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  You know, and

• 44:16Billy Corgan?

  What was your, because the producer was Bo Hill?

• 44:20Speaker 02

  Bo Hill.

• 44:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Well, but before Bo Hill sort of shows up in this mixture, this cocktail, what was your vision for the album?

• 44:30Speaker 02

  Well,

• 44:31Billy Corgan?

  Were you thinking we have to pivot to be slightly more commercial? We got to do exactly what we're doing.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  Hmm, I think our, our whole trip was like, we have the opportunity now to really try to make a record. And we got serious, you know?

• 44:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  A lot of those songs on the record, we had played live. So, you know, we wanted that live thing on the record. Bo was a staff producer. It's kind of like we, we got signed, but only if that guy is producing the record. Doug Morse, you know? So it was a weird thing. We didn't care. We were in the studio. Let's rock, you know, nothing changed. We were partying, doing our thing, you know, and we, you know, laid it down and

• 45:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because there's not a lot, there's not a tremendous amount of difference in your musical vision before Bo Hill shows up as producer.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 45:24Billy Corgan?

  But he obviously harnessed something that was important. So give me that part of it.

• 45:29Speaker 02

  Okay, with Bo, and I still love it to this day, is, is we actually had a system of working with me. Because I, he would come up with ideas and I would be open minded. Why not? Right? Hey, whatever works.

• 45:45Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  You know? So you do the best you can. And then, but he had some great ideas and, and, you know, some words and, and things. But as we went along, like another Planet of the Pluses record, another Planet of the Pluses record, another, you know, it started getting trippy to where I didn't even want to write lyrics until I, I give them my songs. I go, here's one of my songs. You guys work on it, you know, so we have all the songs. I'm talking like maybe Reach.

• 46:13Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  Or, or Dancing, one of those.

• 46:17Speaker 02

  And to where it got weird, the guys and I didn't know what I was singing because Bo would always make me change. So I would never get really hung up on what I was writing after the first two records.

• 46:30Billy Corgan?

  If you can quantify what he was asking you to be as opposed to what you had sort of brought in.

• 46:35Speaker 02

  Well, he wanted more commercialism. I mean, hit, hit, hit. I mean, you understand when sell it happened and round, it was like, we didn't know the one else. We didn't know what else. And we had no break. That's another downfall of, of, of this, of the band is we never had a break.

• 46:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. You're You were tour, record, tour, record, tour.

• 46:56Speaker 02

  And good luck. Okay. For the first two records, it's okay. But after that, you know, as you know, you can beat yourself up and that's not happening. But in the studio was cool because I like Bo. He would give me great ideas and I'd try them. Why not? Right? And I appreciate it more now because over the years and on some of these records, I've had the opportunity to write with some of the best writers. I love it. I mean, man, Desmond, Jim Valance, Hudson. I love it. Knowledge, you know?

• 47:34Billy Corgan?

  So you were cool with, I know this is a lame.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Trying anything.

• 47:38Billy Corgan?

  But let's call it.

• 47:39Speaker 02

  Without giving it, giving it up.

• 47:40Billy Corgan?

  Well, because.

• 47:41Speaker 02

  Cause we did.

• 47:43Billy Corgan?

  Cause I, I know, I know Nikki decently well. We were friendly for a while and talked a lot. Nikki had always struggled with Motley Crue's integrity, how fans viewed Motley as a, as a rock band versus the commercial necessities of being a big band and Nikki, Nikki was a commercial writer.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 48:03Billy Corgan?

  So, you know, he wrestle with that. So in your case, it seems like you didn't really wrestle with that. You were kind of.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  I was open to, to, you know, cause hey, I, I, I do, I, I always did what I did, write songs.

• 48:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  Either works or it doesn't work. Those guys take it, they arrange it. And or Bo gets a hold of it and then it's like, wow, that's way cool. And I'm literally talking the song way cool.

• 48:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  You know, he has a lot to do with that. You know.

• 48:32Billy Corgan?

  Cause the width, the width in your singles is pretty wide.

• 48:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 48:35Billy Corgan?

  It's not like there's this kind of this one rat sound and you guys had some success. There's some really interesting choices, different feelings, different.

• 48:43Speaker 02

  And I love that. See, I see. That's one thing that only we could, we got away with, you know?

• 48:48Billy Corgan?

  Well, of your, of the bands of your particular generation that came out of that, this scene in LA.

• 48:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:53Billy Corgan?

  I mean.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  And I'm proud of that because we tried and, and it, it worked for us. Like way cool. Rock man gets away with it.

• 49:00Billy Corgan?

  But I think it has a lot to do with the, with the way you sing.

• 49:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Presentation. Sure.

• 49:05Billy Corgan?

  No, but I, but I, but I go back to the, the quality of your voice being sort of different. I think you, you didn't, you know, you didn't fall into like the traps that's like rock singers fall into. Like I gotta sound tougher. I gotta do this.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  And you know, it's interesting as, as we're talking about singing and, and stuff. It, it's like, you know, when you're out there, I've, I've had a peeve lately about people bitching about.

• 49:28Billy Corgan?

  Tell me your peeve.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  About people, be it fans or other musicians or whatever, like giving other musicians shit. You know, for like, well, he doesn't sound like he sounds, well, 40 something years later. I don't think so. Uh, do you sound like you sound 40 years later?

• 49:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  Uh, he doesn't move like that. I mean, granted, there are some guys that should kind of pull out of the, pull out. You know, I, I even tell my peers, hey, whatever dude, but that's, that's only love, right? But, but I, I go, no, no, I don't sound like that. There's no way I'm gonna go body talk, you know? Some of these songs, I mean, shame, shame, shame. Forget about it. You know, hey, can we do a song? I'm like, are you out of your mind?

• 50:17Billy Corgan?

  I did, I did, within the last couple of years, I, I do this with artists I really love. I'll go back and I listen to the, the albums all in a row. You're basically how they came out.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 50:27Billy Corgan?

  And it does seem as your albums went on through this, the, let's call it rat period number one.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  The 10 year.

• 50:33Billy Corgan?

  Okay, whatever, but you seem to have seen higher and then higher and what was that about?

• 50:38Speaker 02

  I don't know. And you know what? It's like.

• 50:40Billy Corgan?

  By the end of that run, you're singing so fricking high. I don't.

• 50:43Speaker 02

  And dude, I was beat that still. Bo had beat me up, but I gotta tell you, the other day I heard one of our songs and it was so fast. I'm like, turn it down. I mean, the speed down. It was like, and I'm like, oh God, I got, I got, trying to complain about that, you know, who put that out there? You know, granted, it's not like Paige going houses the holy, right? Spin it up to make planets, you know, but no, no intention, but Bo had just worked my shame, like shame, right? We did the detonator tour. Yeah, I might've gotten away with it a little now and then, but you know, you work with it.

• 51:21Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So, uh, because it's obviously it's the most explored part of your life. That's why I'm least interested in exploring now because I'm not interested. I just feel like a lot of that information is out there, but so it's not to skip past these incredible years because there's a lot of great music.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, a lot of good stuff.

• 51:37Billy Corgan?

  But, but now that you know, we know, and you know how it ended, let's call it rat period number one, like what's your, what's your take? Sitting here today on, on how you view that period. Do you have empathy for yourself? Do you, you think I would have done it differently? I'm cool with it. How it all went down or?

• 51:54Speaker 02

  1,000% I would have done it differently because when I created the band rat,

• 52:02Speaker 02

  as my boys know, and they know now that

• 52:09Speaker 02

  everything would have kept working if you just,

• 52:14Speaker 02

  you know, I didn't have all the answers. I just created the thing, you know what I mean? And I liked my, you know, and there was a lot of my songs, you know? The whole EP is all me. I wrote the whole EP except for tough. You know, I give Robin credit because he was my right hand man, you know? It's like, yeah, brother, why not? You know? But, you know, I did a lot of those riffs and, and, and stuff and it could have been cool. It just got, you know?

• 52:43Billy Corgan?

  So what's?

• 52:43Speaker 02

  It happens. It happens. I get it.

• 52:45Billy Corgan?

  In a summary way, what, if you're, if, if, if we're sitting like we're sitting here, give me like your two or three reasons, like why did it go sideways?

• 52:55Speaker 02

  Too many cooks, you know.

• 52:57Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I'm gonna freak you out here. Ready? Okay.

• 53:01Billy Corgan?

  There's literally a line here on my notes. Lots of cooks in the kitchen.

• 53:05Speaker 02

  One hundred percent. Because it was cool the first few years, you know, with Robin and me directing the madness. And those guys know, we knew what we were doing. Because like I say, I followed the Van Halen schematic. Blame it on them. My work ethic was like, we're gonna kick ass, we're gonna look great, we're gonna do this. It was like, just go for it. Then it wasn't that anymore.

• 53:30Billy Corgan?

  Well, what do you attribute that to? Is it ego? Is it drugs?

• 53:33Speaker 02

  Success. Everything.

• 53:35Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 53:35Speaker 02

  Whatever comes with success, you know?

• 53:38Billy Corgan?

  But I'm speaking like a brother here, but like, when I look at musicians that I've dealt with, when they can't handle success, or the juice, or the glare of the lights, I mean, at the end of the day, isn't it ultimately on them?

• 53:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. But when you start wanting to do things against the grain, and you know, you've got like, like mutiny on the bounty. And they all, you know, they all went after me. And they all fell. So, you know. I'm the last man standing.

• 54:11Billy Corgan?

  Are we talking the mutiny at the end of the eighties, early nineties period? Are we talking about?

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Even now, I'm still fighting. And, and, but I'm the last man standing, and I'm proud of what we did. It's like, guys, you know, we did a good thing. It's like Marshall Burrows says, hey, man, you had your moment. It was crazy, you know? And, but it was a beautiful thing. And I just don't know why, you know, it confuses me sometimes, how, I don't know, what happens to some people, you know, especially when you give them something that really isn't theirs. You know, they get a piece of something that they really don't know how to handle or control, or, you know, call me out, mother, you know, I know where it's at. They don't know how to do theirs. I do. I made it work. Many times.

• 54:59Billy Corgan?

  It's part of your, it's part of your.

• 55:03Billy Corgan?

  Is the center for you because, look, this was your vision from the beginning. It start, you know, you, you were doing this before they all kind of showed up. So even today, that, that, that's the thread that follows all the way back.

• 55:15Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 55:16Billy Corgan?

  I just want to understand.

• 55:16Speaker 02

  And they might, you know, I don't think they, you know, there's animosity for that or whatever, but I didn't have all the answers. I just, you know, like I say, you created something really good and, and you give some away for no, you know, just to be cool.

• 55:30Billy Corgan?

  Playing the parlor game, Rat, of all the bands that get, get kind of lumped into the hair metal category. I didn't, I never thought of you guys as hair metal. I just don't think that's right for you. I don't know. I think, I think Rat is one of those bands that stands almost like Motley.

• 55:45Speaker 02

  Or a rock band.

• 55:46Billy Corgan?

  But, but Motley and you guys stand out of all the other bands. I don't know why, what they, is the influences or the swagger or the attitude or the openness?

• 55:55Speaker 02

  I think it was, if with them, it was, and as, it was just man or tenacity and tenacity and, and.

• 56:05Billy Corgan?

  But you not see what I'm talking about from a musical point of view?

• 56:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:08Billy Corgan?

  I'm not arguing. I'm just saying.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah, I get it. Um.

• 56:13Billy Corgan?

  Cause there's, there's a lot.

• 56:14Speaker 02

  We were a little, Rat was different. I can, I can actually say that, that the band is different than a lot of the.

• 56:21Billy Corgan?

  It's to me, to me, to me as a fan and observer of the time, it's, it's.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  But you know what? I have to, and I, and I've learned to love this, the hair metal thing. Because when you, somebody says hair metal, they go, oh yeah, you mean Rat Def Leppard? And then you're, you're, there's there. I'd rather be there than not at all. That's called business.

• 56:41Billy Corgan?

  I'm just making a qualitative musical argument. Yeah, yeah. But yeah. So the reason I was going down this, uh, rabbit hole was, um, and I want to talk about what happened when Rat, Rat kind of dissolves there for a hot minute, but, um.

• 56:55Billy Corgan?

  Rat of all the bands, I would say even more than Motley was uniquely positioned to not transition into grunge, but actually ride the wave that grunge brought in. Because the riffs of

• 57:05Speaker 02

  I'll tell you.

• 57:06Billy Corgan?

  The riffs of Rat are not that different than the riffs of alternative music.

• 57:09Speaker 02

  Sure, sure. Some of them is crazy.

• 57:11Billy Corgan?

  It's kind of the same-ish.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  See, it is, it is. And, and I, that's probably

• 57:16Billy Corgan?

  I mean, you must have laughed when, sorry, you must have laughed when you heard grunge because you're like, this is really not that different.

• 57:21Speaker 02

  No, it's not at all. And, and that's why

• 57:23Billy Corgan?

  The downtuning and all the

• 57:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. That's why I get off on, on these, these new bands because I see, I, I get it. I get where they're coming from. I get their, their whole trip and, but don't, you know, you know, make mistakes that we did in our decade.

• 57:42Billy Corgan?

  Oh, they're gonna make the mistakes. Don't you worry about it.

• 57:43Speaker 02

  Of course they did. They already did. And, and

• 57:46Billy Corgan?

  You know how it is. Somebody could have come to you in a time machine in 1982 and said, it's gonna go like this and you're gonna do this and you're, and don't do this mistake.

• 57:53Speaker 02

  Sure, sure.

• 57:54Billy Corgan?

  And you'll still do it. It's just the musician brain.

• 57:56Speaker 02

  That's right. And, and I'll tell you, but you know, like, like Brose says, but you know, I gotta tell you, back to now and, and actually, you know, I mean, I'd play with a lot of my guys again, but some are, is unnecessary. It would only put a negative in the, in the, the positive. Like when I'm out there playing, I want to have a good time. That's why I'm still out there.

• 58:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 58:22Speaker 02

  You know, it's not necessarily for the buck. It's great, but you know, stop giving, you know, I won't do it. You know, I love kicking back and feeding deers and chasing, you know, doing whatever I do. And, but I'm always writing, working, whatever. So, you know, but anyway, the bottom line is, is now when we go out, we have, I have a great time. And, and I love talking to the fans because they're so hardcore and sincere. I mean,

• 58:51Speaker 02

  You know, besides the tattoos, rat tattoos and their kids and clothes and presents. It's like, it's like a whole new world again.

• 58:59Billy Corgan?

  Uh huh.

• 59:00Speaker 02

  You know, it's exciting and dangerous and colorful again. Kinda, you know, because some of us are out there embracing it.

• 59:08Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 59:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, always the same I wore back then. Why not? That's why you did it then. You know, uh, somebody made a complaint about, you know, musicians or said something about musicians. And I kind of went, you know, what are they supposed to look like? If you're in a band forty years ago. Why can't you at least have some kind of that, that character now?

• 59:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 59:30Speaker 02

  What do you need to? I don't get it. I still love, you know, do it, dressing up and looking like I want to do something out there.

• 59:39Billy Corgan?

  I think people get confused by the OGs, if you know what I mean by that.

• 59:42Speaker 02

  I do, I do too.

• 59:43Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean? Like, if you're an OG, why would you change what you do or who you are because you're an OG?

• 59:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And I just, you know, I, I, I think with me, I have just progressed with the help of direction. You know, as a person and, and, you know, besides getting sobered up and learning from mistakes. But I'm still, and I will still fight wars for the band I created, you know?

• 1:00:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  It was an important, uh, uh, it's still important to me. It always will be. And, and so no matter, so that's why I, I, I really love, I mean, me and Warren are really taking this in like, man, it's forty something years later, dude, we can do this.

• 1:00:28Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:00:29Speaker 02

  You know, we can have a great time and that's what happened last, this year.

• 1:00:33Billy Corgan?

  So let's, let's take this walk here for a second because I'm curious.

• 1:00:38Billy Corgan?

  I'm repeating myself, but to me, if I'm you, and I'm not you, but if I'm you and I'm looking at what's coming in early nineties with what is now commonly called grunge, you can't be thinking, we're not that different than what's coming out.

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:52Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 1:00:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't get it.

• 1:00:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay, good.

• 1:00:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:54Billy Corgan?

  So, uh, how do you view that period now in hindsight?

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:01:01Billy Corgan?

  Cause on one hand, you're trying to start, you did Arcade, you did some records with Arcade.

• 1:01:05Speaker 02

  Sure. And I did V D, which was Vicious Delight.

• 1:01:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  Have you ever heard that?

• 1:01:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I did.

• 1:01:10Speaker 02

  It's like brutal. It's like, and I intended it to be the shortest hardcore songs I could do.

• 1:01:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  And just.

• 1:01:18Billy Corgan?

  And your voice fits right into that type of music.

• 1:01:21Speaker 02

  More like grunge.

• 1:01:23Billy Corgan?

  But that's my point.

• 1:01:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I love it.

• 1:01:24Billy Corgan?

  So you're over here running this track, but of course you know how the world works. It's like,

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:28Billy Corgan?

  Well, you're the guy from Red.

• 1:01:29Speaker 02

  They don't like it and it didn't work. You know, it worked for a bit with me and Freddie with Arcade, Fred Corey. We had a great tour. We did stuff with, you know, Bon Jovi or whatever and then,

• 1:01:42Speaker 02

  but the record did well and that was great songs. And then we did the second one and it just got, it started getting dark and that's when it went boom, you know.

• 1:01:51Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so, so over here, you're doing what you're doing, right? You're, you're trying to do, and I've been there, you're going down that road, you know?

• 1:01:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:59Billy Corgan?

  And then you're watching all these artists blow up. Some of them are legends, some are long forgotten.

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:02:05Billy Corgan?

  Rightly so, in my personal opinion, as being there.

• 1:02:10Billy Corgan?

  So we share some of that, but yeah, but I'm saying, well, how do you do that period now? Because like I said, uh, people commonly do the thing and it's kind of a lazy take, you know? Grunge killed hair metal.

• 1:02:19Speaker 02

  I don't believe that. I mean, they call it.

• 1:02:22Billy Corgan?

  Well, it did because, because so many of the great bands of the hair metal world are still out there playing big gigs.

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Well, and, and, and deservingly so, some of them. I mean, the copycats of them, what are you kidding me? Some of those bands are being played more now because of this hair metal tag than they ever were in the eighties.

• 1:02:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  Kiss the ground, guys. Get, get, get paid.

• 1:02:47Billy Corgan?

  Well, there's that, is that Sirius has the hair metal channel, right?

• 1:02:50Speaker 02

  Right, right. And, and, and so, you know, I, I didn't struggle with that term. I went, you know, that's kind of funny. And then I started thinking about hair metal, you know, and then, but, but. But what after Arcade, when I was going, oh, I'm pissed off. And I vicious delight happened, you know. Uh, it was no different than what was happening.

• 1:03:11Billy Corgan?

  How did you started to ask again, but I, how did you view the nineties bands? Cause some artists are bitter about it. Some artists are like, whatever.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  No, and you know what? Their, their turn is happening now, just like the eighties.

• 1:03:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:25Speaker 02

  Turn was, I'd say the last five years. Uh, had, had its moment and now it's there. I think the same thing is happening now to the nineties.

• 1:03:36Billy Corgan?

  Very much.

• 1:03:37Speaker 02

  Look at Korn, look at Limp Bizkit, look at Evanescence, look at so and so. They're doing huge shows. Will Hunt drums. I forgot to say that. But, uh, so, and look how big they are now. People still want the good.

• 1:03:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So you were, you were cool with that musical scene at the time?

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. A hundred percent. I look at, I enjoy, that's why it, it came off on me, you know, it dwindled. You know, it, it was put in my head to where I wrote these crazy vicious delight songs, you know? Uh, like a dog and, and.

• 1:04:15Billy Corgan?

  Is that, that stuff's not on Spotify though, or is it on streaming service?

• 1:04:18Speaker 02

  No, I don't do Spotify. I don't, I don't.

• 1:04:21Billy Corgan?

  I was trying to find that stuff. I mean, I found it, but it was like, I had to dig around a bit.

• 1:04:25Speaker 02

  And actually Bo Hill remixed vicious delight. And he was like, what the? Cause I go, Bo, I put him in a really good studio.

• 1:04:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:35Speaker 02

  And I go, I go, do your thing with this, do mix it with this. It's hardcore and he didn't know what to do with it. But he did try to buff it up and whatever and, and it didn't work.

• 1:04:47Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  No, no, no. And, and that's what I knew. Wow.

• 1:04:50Billy Corgan?

  So, so in these years where rats sort of floating.

• 1:04:53Speaker 02

  Floundered.

• 1:04:54Billy Corgan?

  Floundered or float apart or whatever. Did you maintain any personal relationships with anybody or was that thing you're kind of divorced and?

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  Um, well, well, with Warren, like I say, um, it was just a while before. That was inevitable that him and I would, you know, it happened before years and years apart, you know, not playing or whatever.

• 1:05:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:22Speaker 02

  And cause he does this trip, I get it. But the other guys, uh, I, I talked to Bobby quite often.

• 1:05:31Speaker 02

  And the other guy.

• 1:05:32Billy Corgan?

  I'm talking about, I'm sorry, but I'm talking about then because you guys did reform.

• 1:05:37Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:05:37Billy Corgan?

  Did another album.

• 1:05:38Speaker 02

  I did. That's what I'm saying. I talk, you know, I actually would run into Warren occasionally on the downtime period. Nothing was happening. There was wars and this legal and you know.

• 1:05:48Billy Corgan?

  Who, who did, was, was part of the contention, who owns the name or was that stuff?

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And it, you know, it's been back and forth, back and forth and, and, and the outcome will, you know, inevitably happened, you know, with what partners are left. And I don't dwell on it because it's like I say, look, we created this, this music. We created this entity.

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  When Robin was out of the picture, I knew it was done. I went, okay, we can go out there and play and, you know, call it rat. And some people get it and not, but it didn't work, you know?

• 1:06:29Billy Corgan?

  Why do you think it didn't work?

• 1:06:32Speaker 02

  Well, when you throw in different components with no disrespect to some of the musicians, you know, I mean,

• 1:06:41Speaker 02

  one guy had a rat out there, you know, with all these different people. They replaced me with somebody and went out and you know.

• 1:06:49Billy Corgan?

  There's those weird like mid nineties where it's without you, which is hard for me to.

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  And then I had to come in, step in in 97 and put, you know, regrouped everybody, put together a collage. And we're, we're going to get things in order. And tried it. It wasn't gonna work. And I, I, I say it because you know, Robin was such a big part of, of directing this monster. You know? He really was and uh. Besides being a heart and soul guy, he was, he was really dedicated until he, he got lost, you know? And once it was done, once he was out, it was over. I mean, like I say, it was mutiny on the bounty, man.

• 1:07:31Billy Corgan?

  In your mind? When, when, when does he go from just your typical partying LA musician to he's like kind of real?

• 1:07:38Speaker 02

  Detonator.

• 1:07:39Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:07:39Speaker 02

  The last album.

• 1:07:40Billy Corgan?

  So that's ninety?

• 1:07:42Speaker 02

  Ninety, ninety-one.

• 1:07:43Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:07:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, it was terrible. We should have never went on the road. The record was a, a mess and you know, you do what you can because you're ordered to and that's the way it is.

• 1:07:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  And that's part of the business. I changed for myself. Cause I release my own records, I do my own thing, I have my own distribution. But back then it was like, whoa, man. And then the business really started changing, you know what I mean?

• 1:08:10Billy Corgan?

  That is true.

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  Here you got all these channels, here you got that and, and uh. But then again, I found another direction of, of the business that I like. And that's like music for movies, TV commercial and you know, that kind of stuff. And you know, I love some, uh, uh, still what, what's happening, you know, in the music business. That's something that I could give a about. You know, I love, and, and the touring part, you know, it is a blessing that Warren I got back together because we forgot. How important, uh. How important we were to, to each other. You know what I mean?

• 1:08:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I get that.

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  You go, hey, man, you, you, we're, we're buddies.

• 1:08:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:52Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:08:54Billy Corgan?

  It is interesting when you've had those experiences with somebody like. It bonds you in a way like people, obviously we didn't go to war, but it's, it's the, I call it the foxhole.

• 1:09:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:05Billy Corgan?

  You can never not have that with each other.

• 1:09:08Speaker 02

  That's right. Yeah. And, and look, you only live twice.

• 1:09:14Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:09:15Billy Corgan?

  Sounds like a rap, sounds like a rap song title.

• 1:09:17Speaker 02

  It might be and and but you know, when I say that I mean, you know, a lot of the with me, I see things very differently with the business and my life. I separate the two.

• 1:09:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:31Speaker 02

  I really do. Sometimes I don't know that dude that goes out there. Once I, you know, I don't even, put it this way, I don't do sound checks. I I want to walk right on stage and to unpredictability. I want to, I don't want to see the stage. I don't want nothing. I just want to go out there

• 1:09:49Speaker 02

  and do what I used to do.

• 1:09:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:50Speaker 02

  With that surprise, you know, that element. I don't like, you know, I like, I don't know what it is.

• 1:09:57Billy Corgan?

  I get it. I get it.

• 1:09:58Speaker 02

  You know, and then I have a great time and and it's, man, I see people smiling and singing. You know, it's a trip, man. You you got to, you you understand it.

• 1:10:08Billy Corgan?

  I, I, I, everything you say, I feel in here.

• 1:10:12Speaker 02

  Business is so weird, you know, and then you get into the business, business part that it up. Because.

• 1:10:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  You know, it is a beautiful thing. People like you for what you do. And you're like, well, why? Well, your song and this and that's like, yeah, man, I meet people at airports and weirdest places. And I go, how do you even recognize me? You know, I got a dog tail up here looking like, and people go, oh, hey, I still go, wow, that's cool, man, you know?

• 1:10:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:42Speaker 02

  Embrace.

• 1:10:43Billy Corgan?

  I got a cool Warren story for you.

• 1:10:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:10:45Billy Corgan?

  So, uh, ninety six, we released this big album and and one of the band members ends up leaving. So I end up coming out to LA in ninety seven, making this depressing record called A Door.

• 1:10:57Speaker 02

  My mother. Solo record?

• 1:10:59Billy Corgan?

  No, my my bass player later said it should have been a solo record. This is a different story.

• 1:11:03Speaker 02

  She gave me her book, That Girl?

• 1:11:05Billy Corgan?

  Oh, no, you're thinking of a different bass player. I've had a few.

• 1:11:10Billy Corgan?

  Well, you've had a few bass players too.

• 1:11:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 1:11:13Billy Corgan?

  Anyway, the reason I'm telling you this is, um, so I was out here at Sunset Sound making this very depressing record. My mother, my mother had died. My mother had died and, and I was like going through a lot, you know? It's life stuff.

• 1:11:25Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:26Billy Corgan?

  And a buddy said, um, uh, do you want to meet Warren DiMartini from Rat?

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:11:32Billy Corgan?

  I was like, yeah.

• 1:11:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, why not?

• 1:11:34Billy Corgan?

  So, so I made friends with Warren and he used to come visit me in the studio while I'm making this super depressing record.

• 1:11:39Speaker 02

  No way.

• 1:11:41Billy Corgan?

  And so he.

• 1:11:42Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:11:42Billy Corgan?

  So I always have this love for Warren because he was around during the making of this record and he would show up like an angel. He would just kind of come in and just talk to me and we'd just hang out and talk guitar.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 1:11:52Billy Corgan?

  And I was such a fan of you and him and, and it was like, it was like he was this angel who would just show up on the right day at the right time and just kind of, kind of helped me through this really difficult period of my life.

• 1:12:03Speaker 02

  What a trip, man. I'm gonna tell him that. I talked, I'm gonna talk.

• 1:12:06Billy Corgan?

  Yes, please send him my love because it's one of those things where it's like, you know, there's the public story of the record, but the private story of the record is Warren is intertwined into that record.

• 1:12:15Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:12:15Billy Corgan?

  And I, to this day, I still regret that I didn't ask him to play on it.

• 1:12:18Speaker 02

  Oh, no way.

• 1:12:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And it wasn't because I didn't want him to play on it. It just was one of those things. It just didn't kind of work out. I, or I, maybe I felt weird just asking him. Like I didn't want him to feel, we weren't friends first and all I wanted was something out of him and.

• 1:12:31Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:12:31Billy Corgan?

  But to this day, I almost, I wish he'd played on it.

• 1:12:34Speaker 02

  Oh, that would have been crazy. Well, that's interesting.

• 1:12:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, I got, I gotta tell you, I, I love so many musicians that are out there because I know most of the real guys that are still out there 40 something years later, like a Rudy Sarzo, or somebody who really respects what they have done and what they do and what they can do and smile about it because it only happens once. You know what I mean?

• 1:13:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:05Speaker 02

  And, and it's fleeting. And, uh, and then we deal with, you know, who likes, who doesn't like, uh, and then me, I could give you who likes, because that was our motto back then.

• 1:13:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:17Speaker 02

  And that's why.

• 1:13:19Billy Corgan?

  We're here.

• 1:13:20Speaker 02

  We're here is because. I want to play whether you like it or not. I'm still gonna sing. What, I have to stop singing because I'm gonna be 70?

• 1:13:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:29Speaker 02

  I forgot how old I am.

• 1:13:32Speaker 02

  So it's like, what am I supposed to stop? Or what, I can't wear cool clothes?

• 1:13:39Billy Corgan?

  Okay, two more things.

• 1:13:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:40Billy Corgan?

  And thank you for indulging me.

• 1:13:44Billy Corgan?

  We all live in this world of like halls of fame and top 50 lists. Best song and da, da, da, da.

• 1:13:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:53Billy Corgan?

  How do you rate your band in the generation? I think it's always fair to start with the generation because because it's one thing to take a band out of their generation and say, how do they match? But, but, but you would have responded differently in a different generation than the, you responded to the one you were in.

• 1:14:07Speaker 02

  A hundred percent, which is 80s.

• 1:14:09Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:14:09Speaker 02

  That generation.

• 1:14:10Billy Corgan?

  So how do you, how, which, how do, where do you guys sit in that totem pole for you?

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  The, the group Rat? I would say they sit firmly in the psyche of that generation.

• 1:14:30Speaker 02

  You know, I don't know. That's a weird one. I think that we're, you know, that was a good band, you know? I don't know how, how to, how to put that. That's like, you know? Uh, how do I see Rat? Well, we did it. You know, I don't know. We did what we were supposed to do.

• 1:14:48Billy Corgan?

  But you know, every generation has commercial, like some artists are more commercial and they're sellouts, but they have a lot of success.

• 1:14:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:56Billy Corgan?

  And you as a musician from the inside, you know what they're doing and why they're doing it.

• 1:14:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, we would never trade that for that. No.

• 1:15:01Billy Corgan?

  Right. Okay.

• 1:15:02Speaker 02

  And never did. That's why, that's why Rat never went like

• 1:15:10Speaker 02

  like

• 1:15:11Billy Corgan?

  That's kind of what I'm asking.

• 1:15:12Speaker 02

  It was destined to have, like, somebody said, uh, uh, something about Zeppelin, like, they were only supposed to be here for those years. For those, they weren't even together eight years, something like that, right?

• 1:15:24Billy Corgan?

  Well, they started, I think, 68 and, and Bonham unfortunately passed away when he was 1980.

• 1:15:30Speaker 02

  So

• 1:15:31Billy Corgan?

  12 years, yeah, or 13, yeah.

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  So the way I see it is that always comes into my mind with us, like. You know, we're only supposed to make, we're only supposed to do it for that long.

• 1:15:46Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:15:46Speaker 02

  You know, that was supposed to be our moment and it was. And, and, and it still goes on because it was, you hit a nerve.

• 1:15:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  And it's a blessing. Hey.

• 1:15:59Speaker 02

  Round and round forever. I mean.

• 1:16:01Billy Corgan?

  Maybe, maybe, maybe a different way to ask you the question. From your generation, rock bands, who, who, who, who do you rate in, in, in the, in sort of the top three to five? Who, who are the people that you go? I still respect the game.

• 1:16:15Speaker 02

  Definitely. Well, who's in the game?

• 1:16:17Billy Corgan?

  No, no, no, I'm talking about, I'm talking about your generation, your, your, your age range. The groups that came out.

• 1:16:25Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 1:16:26Billy Corgan?

  What are the ones that you still go, okay, they did it right or I respect, you know?

• 1:16:30Speaker 02

  They did it right and some bands had to pull out, but I mean, there were a lot of, you know, like kicks.

• 1:16:39Speaker 02

  You know, Motley, you know.

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  Uh, let's see. My job, you got Wasp, you still got guys trying, you, you not trying, you still have. Uh, a lot of us out there trying to do it. Like I say, in one manner or form, for whatever reason, their reason is to do it. Uh, but enjoying it should be the priority because, you know. It just trips me out. It really does. It's like 40 years later, it's almost a surreal thing. Like, as you know that, you're going, our music's been around for 30 years.

• 1:17:19Billy Corgan?

  All four members of Motley Crue are still alive. Start there.

• 1:17:22Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah. And, you know, another thing is, is I trip on is. They better knock on some kind of wood because most successful bands lose somebody, you know?

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  But you know, there's a lot of great bands, but they're not the bands.

• 1:17:40Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:17:41Speaker 02

  Anymore. So, put it this way, soon enough, I'll, we'll be delivering something, you know, but the Sunset Strip experience is, is something that we're working on that's gonna be cool. Cause soon enough, dude, you're gonna have, if it's not happening now, the only thing out there that's gonna represent the eighties is tribute bands.

• 1:18:01Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:18:02Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 1:18:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:03Speaker 02

  It's already happening.

• 1:18:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  You know, you got tribute bands for days. And why? Because it could be cheaper than the real guys or.

• 1:18:14Billy Corgan?

  Uh, great songs, I think.

• 1:18:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:16Billy Corgan?

  I think it's all too much great songs. Okay, last bit, because, because I, I didn't know this, that you'd been through this intense health.

• 1:18:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:22Billy Corgan?

  Health thing. Can you talk about that?

• 1:18:24Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, yeah, you know, you use and abuse, you know, and as I did, as we did. And yeah, I had a bout with cancer, liver cancer. Uh, just kind of freaked, kind of up, cause you know, when somebody goes, hey, you might want to get your things in order.

• 1:18:46Speaker 02

  Okay. Look, I've been run over, I've been, I've had broken bones, rods, wires, this, that. I'm, I am the bionic man. No knees, kneecap, you know, fake knees. But, but when that happened, I've just, uh, that was it. Anyway, long story short, if it wasn't for Christie, keeping me in order and us creating a beautiful support system for me and business. We take care of business, you know, uh, so it's, besides having her support, we have business and that keeps me direct drive, you know.

• 1:19:28Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:19:29Speaker 02

  In place. I don't think about, you know, but yeah, I went in and had surgeries and, and this and that, and thank God. That it's from, you know.

• 1:19:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, if they give you a, uh, cause my mother had liver cancer. That's why it particularly struck me. When my mother had liver cancer in ninety five, somewhere around there, they said her chance of survival was five percent or under. I know it's gotten better.

• 1:19:55Speaker 02

  How long did she live after?

• 1:19:56Billy Corgan?

  Six months.

• 1:19:58Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:19:58Billy Corgan?

  After diagnosis.

• 1:19:59Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. Yeah. And, and that's like my mom. She had, uh, liver cancer too, and they couldn't operate because it was so close to a main. Otherwise she would have survived. I was lucky. It wasn't near anything weird. And they just went in and just took out,

• 1:20:17Speaker 02

  burned, freeze, whatever the they do. But anyway, uh, yeah. And so I'm very lucky and, and don't take that, uh, anything for granted. What I do now is just try to enjoy what.

• 1:20:31Billy Corgan?

  You, you seem in a great place.

• 1:20:32Speaker 02

  What I'm here. Yeah, yeah. And I love, you know, it's, it's a trip because I, I really do like playing. That's, you know, I, you get into it because you like it. You write because.

• 1:20:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:43Speaker 02

  I don't know where it comes from. I just, you know, you just write, you write great songs, you know? So it's like, I, I can relate to people who, who I go, wow, man, that guy's a good writer, you know? I'd love to write with them or write with them. Because life's short, man. And you know what we did? Whether we did it or not, made it or not, or should have been bigger, or should be doing stadium tours. It doesn't mean to me, you know, if it's supposed to be, uh, it'll be.

• 1:21:13Billy Corgan?

  Well, I'm sure I'm, we, we all, we all somewhere in our brain think we should have been in a bigger band, but I think one of the reasons that your music endures so strongly is that it always had a root of musical integrity.

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:25Billy Corgan?

  That even though you had a commercial focus, there's still like an edge to your, I hate that word.

• 1:21:30Speaker 02

  Oh, real. We were real, you know, we were, you know, we didn't bullshit, you know, and say, we're gonna like, put on these little, you're gonna do this and, you know, it was.

• 1:21:40Billy Corgan?

  If, if I have any agenda talking to you today, that's that, that I would want to come through the camera lens is that for people who think they know your music, they need to go back and listen one more time and really understand why your band is so highly regarded with musicians. Because it's a cool band and wrote great songs.

• 1:21:59Speaker 02

  Thank you. And we tried, you know, I can literally say all of us wrote, you know, uh. But then when it got to be like, we've got to write, we've got to write because there's publishing, we got to write.

• 1:22:14Billy Corgan?

  Gosh. Why does that sound so?

• 1:22:15Speaker 02

  Somebody's going, here's a million bucks.

• 1:22:17Billy Corgan?

  Why does that sound so familiar?

• 1:22:18Speaker 02

  Right. And then, then it turns different. And then, you know, the, all those guys who do all the writing, you know, all of a sudden we're bad men. Well, write songs, dude. You know, I don't know what the, but, but.

• 1:22:32Billy Corgan?

  Well, I always think of George Harrison, right? Can you imagine?

• 1:22:34Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:22:34Billy Corgan?

  He's, he's writing and it's like, he's trying to outright John and Paul. But look at the songs he wrote.

• 1:22:39Speaker 02

  I saw something on him recently and that was exactly his subject. And he was just smiling, talking about like, well, at least I got a song or two in there.

• 1:22:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:48Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:22:49Billy Corgan?

  Oh, to imagine competing against those guys in their.

• 1:22:51Speaker 02

  Oh, God, God, you know?

• 1:22:53Billy Corgan?

  But he did it.

• 1:22:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:55Billy Corgan?

  And what I would always say, sorry, but I would always say to my bandmates, because I wrote most of the songs for the band, would be like, just write a better song to me.

• 1:23:04Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:23:04Billy Corgan?

  Put me, put me in a position to turn down a better song.

• 1:23:07Speaker 02

  Right. And the thing is, you know, as, as you know, when you write a song, you don't know if it's gonna be a hit.

• 1:23:14Billy Corgan?

  Nobody, nobody can tell.

• 1:23:15Speaker 02

  It's gonna be a hit. Well, let me tell you now, hey, AI, write me a hit song that sounds like. So you know where the business is going, that, you know?

• 1:23:26Billy Corgan?

  Okay, let's, let's, let's stop here because I, because, because we have to, but.

• 1:23:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:23:31Billy Corgan?

  But one question for you, because I am a fan.

• 1:23:34Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 1:23:35Billy Corgan?

  Tell me, tell me the, tell me the great rap song that I probably missed.

• 1:23:40Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:23:41Billy Corgan?

  Like, like you were sure it was a can't miss song.

• 1:23:46Billy Corgan?

  I was listening to your music today, coming here to, to see you.

• 1:23:48Speaker 02

  A song called Reach For The Sky.

• 1:23:52Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:23:54Speaker 02

  That we recorded.

• 1:23:55Billy Corgan?

  Is that early song?

• 1:23:56Speaker 02

  Cellar. That I found and actually re-released on the 40th anniversary out of the cellar box set. That's what I was gonna bring you.

• 1:24:05Billy Corgan?

  Oh, was it sort of a forgotten?

• 1:24:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I found it.

• 1:24:08Billy Corgan?

  Okay, "Reach for the Sky."

• 1:24:09Speaker 02

  It's called "Reach for the Sky."

• 1:24:10Billy Corgan?

  And you kick yourself because you didn't put it on the record?

• 1:24:13Speaker 02

  It should have been on "Out of the Cellar," but I get it. It's a cowboy song, just like "Wanted Man."

• 1:24:17Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:24:17Speaker 02

  So Bo's probably going,

• 1:24:19Billy Corgan?

  Oh, one of those.

• 1:24:20Speaker 02

  "Hey, you got two cowboy songs here. We'll take 'Wanted Man.'" That's the only thing I can think of why I did, because it's a great song. I found it 40 years later. It's in that, and I'm gonna get it to you, and it's a bitchin' single. And we made a cartoon video of the song too, so you can look it up.

• 1:24:35Billy Corgan?

  Oh, great.

• 1:24:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and, and that's just, you know, that's what I like to do. But that, because we played that song live in our set, you know, early on with like, "You Got It," "You Think You're Tough," "Reach for the Sky," um, you know, "Back for More," before there was even an EP, you know? Uh, but why the song didn't make it, I don't know. But I got it out, and that's what I've been trying to do for the last 10 years. But yes, sir.

• 1:25:00Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. God bless you.

• 1:25:01Speaker 02

  Love you, man.