Carnie Wilson | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

In this episode, Billy Corgan sits down with Carnie Wilson for a frank, wide-ranging conversation that moves from childhood memories of blasting the family stereo with the Carpenters and Elton John to what it was really like growing up amid the Beach Boys’ orbit—falling asleep under control-room consoles while her dad and uncles spun out other-worldly harmonies. Carnie explains how that whirlwind of studio sessions, surfboard logos and late-night vocal stacks shaped her own ear, why she still relies on co-writers, and how Glen Ballard helped transform teenage harmony sessions into multi-platinum hits like “Hold On.” She opens up about ADD, body-image pressures, industry politics, family chaos—including her near-tragic rescue of sister Wendy—and the complex creative bond she shares with her father Brian Wilson. https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Lowe's is rolling out the Black Friday deals early. Get up to 35% off select major appliances. Plus, get next-day delivery on hundreds of in-stock appliances. And shop holiday decor as low as $10. Black Friday deals are on now at Lowe's. In-store and online. Valid through 11/3 while supplies last. Order by 4 p.m. Available Monday through Saturday. Subject to availability. Fees, exclusions, and restrictions apply. See Lowe's.com/ApplianceDelivery.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Everyone talks about how challenging it is to raise kids. But what about protecting them? Outlet covers, kitchen cabinet locks, baby gates. Where do you even start? Well, protecting your home and auto is a great place to start. Progressive offers customized coverage options, so you can be sure to have the right coverage for you and your loved ones. They're basically the outlet covers, kitchen cabinet locks, and baby gates of insurance. Don't wait. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states.

• 1:00Speaker 02

  When it comes to life insurance, annuities, and long-term care solutions, how do you know you've found the right partner? When everything works in harmony. Like innovative products, long-term value, and financial strength. Check out Securian.com to find the partner that hits all the right notes.

• 1:23Speaker 02

  Insurance issued by Minnesota Life Insurance Company and Securian Life Insurance Company. For rating agency information and how our ratings compare, visit Securian.com/ratings.

• 1:31Billy Corgan?

  See, right? That's one of my guilty pleasure songs.

• 1:36Speaker 04

  Oh, God, I love it. This is getting really deep, but this is where songwriting...

• 1:40Billy Corgan?

  It's what we're here to do. Because, no, because there is a connect tissue. Do you understand where I'm going?

• 1:43Speaker 04

  Yeah. He's like, "You need to call your band, Pretzels with Mustard." And we're like, "Okay, you're A, you're clearly wasted and have the munchies..."

• 1:52Billy Corgan?

  Were you stoned too, though?

• 1:53Speaker 04

  Who knows? I just remember it was the most creative, magical thing I've ever felt.

• 2:02Billy Corgan?

  I'm curious, because you grew up in a musical world, like, when do you first remember hearing music? Do you have like that first memory?

• 2:11Speaker 04

  Yeah. I don't know if I have like a first memory, but I have memories of being in our living room. My parents had a really great stereo system that we could blast super loud. And we used to test it, like, how loud can we really go? There were these huge black speakers, and they were on the ground, actually. And it was just, we would just totally play with fire, just like blast as loud as we could till the windows would shake. And, I mean, how destructive can that be when that's The Carpenters, right? Because that's what we would blast. It would be The Carpenters.

• 2:53Speaker 04

  So, you know, "Tuck into myself and feel it all," you know. Really loud.

• 2:58Billy Corgan?

  But anything loud has a kind of a...

• 3:00Speaker 04

  Yeah. I don't know what it is about volume of music. I really love listening to my music very loudly. When I'm in my car, it's kind of dangerous, the way I listen to it. But I don't know if it's because my hearing is right now, I don't know. But it's kind of always been that way.

• 3:18Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 3:18Speaker 04

  Yeah. So I remember the first memories would be like just in the living room, Mom and Dad's stereo, and then it was Captain Fantastic. It was...

• 3:29Billy Corgan?

  That would have been out '73, right?

• 3:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I was born in '68. So like five or years old.

• 3:35Billy Corgan?

  I'm just a little older than you, see.

• 3:37Speaker 04

  But how much though?

• 3:38Billy Corgan?

  I'm 67.

• 3:39Speaker 04

  You look great. God. Jesus. No, I'm 56, so...

• 3:45Billy Corgan?

  Thank you.

• 3:46Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, so I just remember loving, just loving it from young, young age.

• 3:53Billy Corgan?

  Because I grew up in a musical household, too.

• 3:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:56Billy Corgan?

  So I feel like kids who grew up with musician parents, you know, we grew up in that atmosphere. There's always

• 4:03Speaker 04

  The atmosphere.

• 4:03Billy Corgan?

  weird people hanging around

• 4:05Speaker 04

  Right.

• 4:06Billy Corgan?

  and music and...

• 4:08Speaker 04

  It is an atmosphere.

• 4:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, so I was curious for your own personal connection because, you know, as you know, when you grow up with a famous parent, people kind of put their own version of that on you.

• 4:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:21Billy Corgan?

  But your musical life indicates to me that you had your own experience with music and your own trajectory.

• 4:27Speaker 04

  Absolutely. You're right about that. People love to talk about that lineage and it is a powerful thing and something I'm so proud of. But yeah, it's like I really did have my own, my own experience with it. And, um, and I went in phases, you know, discovering different music at different ages, but, um...

• 4:45Billy Corgan?

  So tell me some of the people that you were listening to. Like when you first were like, okay, this is my music. I'm, I want to listen to this record.

• 4:52Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, that, that was, I mean, I am total 70s horror for music. Love anything in the 70s. I'm completely like blown away by.

• 5:03Billy Corgan?

  Give me some guilty pleasures.

• 5:04Speaker 04

  Okay, like Pablo Cruz, you know, like...

• 5:07Billy Corgan?

  Do you know he's a music supervisor now? Did you know?

• 5:09Speaker 04

  Is he?

• 5:11Billy Corgan?

  He's from one, somebody told me he's the number one music supervisor guy in town here in LA. His, like if you need a scene with like some kind of music, you go to Pablo Cruz. He's your guy.

• 5:22Speaker 04

  Oh my God. Well, like Ambrosia...

• 5:25Billy Corgan?

  Remember Jay Ferguson?

• 5:27Speaker 04

  Of course. Yes.

• 5:28Billy Corgan?

  Thunder Island, was it?

• 5:29Speaker 04

  Yes. Love that song.

• 5:32Billy Corgan?

  See it, right? That's one of my guilty pleasure songs.

• 5:37Speaker 04

  Oh God, I love it. I love, I love a groove. Like that's the thing that got me was like, that's why I love like Michael Jackson's music because it just, he just, he had these like rhythm, like these groove things. And I think all his songwriting like started with that, with some kind of groove in his mind.

• 5:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, you always think like he's always very rhythmic in his writing.

• 5:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, rhythmic, yeah. But so I was drawn to that. I was, but definitely, you know, Fleetwood Mac. I think my first love was Elton John. That, that definitely was, I was five or six. That's when I, he's the one. He is the one that started it all. Not really the Beach Boys or anything. I mean, I remember growing up with all their music and I loved it, but it was, it wasn't until later until I gained a lot of respect. 13 and 14.

• 6:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but again, I'm...

• 6:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:23Billy Corgan?

  All due respect to your family, but it's, I'm curious for your musical journey. Because again, when I listened to the music that you ended up doing in your own life and your songwriting too.

• 6:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:35Billy Corgan?

  You know, there's not, it's not, you're like, you don't sound like the daughter of the Beach Boys.

• 6:38Speaker 04

  Right.

• 6:39Billy Corgan?

  You have your own musical identity.

• 6:41Speaker 04

  Definitely. Thank you for saying that. I mean, it was a collaboration, you know. I mean, I still have never written a song by myself and I...

• 6:48Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 6:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, never have.

• 6:50Billy Corgan?

  Okay, gotta stop you there. Why?

• 6:52Speaker 04

  Incredible.

• 6:53Billy Corgan?

  Your father is one of the greatest songwriters ever.

• 6:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:57Billy Corgan?

  I mean, he's up there with the Tin Pan Alley writers, right? I mean, he's one of the great Melodists, if that's even a word.

• 7:02Speaker 04

  I agree, right.

• 7:03Billy Corgan?

  So, I love the idea of genetic lines, you know what I mean?

• 7:07Speaker 04

  Me too.

• 7:07Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so I would think there would be some gift in there involved with writing.

• 7:13Speaker 04

  There has to be.

• 7:13Billy Corgan?

  The fact that you've never tested it on your own is surprising to me.

• 7:16Speaker 04

  I think I'm just terrified to tap into it.

• 7:17Billy Corgan?

  Why?

• 7:18Speaker 04

  I don't know. Maybe, wouldn't that be funny if I wrote my first song at 56? Like my full, full complete...

• 7:23Billy Corgan?

  I'm gonna come over and we're gonna...

• 7:25Speaker 04

  That'd be great.

• 7:25Billy Corgan?

  I'm gonna stand there.

• 7:27Speaker 04

  You're so sweet.

• 7:28Billy Corgan?

  I would.

• 7:29Speaker 04

  Wouldn't that be great?

• 7:29Billy Corgan?

  I'd really be, I'd be really curious.

• 7:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, I like to noodle around at the piano and everything and I, I'm just, I think I just have such like severe ADD that I can't focus. I can't focus.

• 7:43Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but are you a fan of Courtney Love at all?

• 7:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:47Billy Corgan?

  Whole?

• 7:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:48Billy Corgan?

  Were you a fan of that?

• 7:49Speaker 04

  I mean, not like diehard.

• 7:51Billy Corgan?

  But I'm saying, the reason I bring it up is, is not to put you on the spot, is, is when Courtney had come out of rehab in like 96, 97, I was having a lot of issues, personal issues, she asked me to help her on an album, which became this album called Celebrity Skin. And Courtney's very ADD.

• 8:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:08Billy Corgan?

  So I've written with ADD writer.

• 8:10Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 8:11Billy Corgan?

  And writers. The thing with ADD writers is it's, it's, it's a little bit like things flying by in a stream. You gotta kinda, you gotta try to know which ones to grab.

• 8:19Speaker 04

  I know, I know. And that's why I love collaborating.

• 8:23Billy Corgan?

  Cause you got somebody to kinda...

• 8:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:25Speaker 04

  And then like, I start something, they finish it, or I have like, it's so fragmented. That's the way my music is in.

• 8:33Billy Corgan?

  But why do you think it's fragmented? Is it just the way your brain works?

• 8:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:37Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 8:38Speaker 04

  I really think it's the way my brain works. Because I, I love like writing bridges. I love like going off into the other land of the bridge.

• 8:46Billy Corgan?

  So you like reacting off of something that's there?

• 8:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:49Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I get that.

• 8:49Speaker 04

  Yes, yes. So like when China said...

• 8:52Billy Corgan?

  Do you not like the pressure though of being on the spot?

• 8:55Speaker 04

  No, it doesn't bug me.

• 8:56Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 8:56Speaker 04

  I mean, I don't have any shame or any, there's no, there's no shame.

• 9:00Billy Corgan?

  You've been in Playboy.

• 9:02Speaker 04

  I've spread my legs for Playboy, so is there anything you could be more like, you know? But I don't have a shame with that, but I think it's more frustration.

• 9:11Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 9:12Speaker 04

  And wanting to get to that next place and then, I mean, because shame is not the same as insecurity. I don't think.

• 9:19Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 9:20Speaker 04

  Shame is more like embarrassed, kind of, you know? Or like feeling smaller or like not good enough, whatever. Embarrassed is more like, I think to me, vulnerable and being exposed. So, I don't know. I think I'm just hard on myself. I think ultimately, I'm just hard on me. And it's hard to like, think of all the music that has.

• 9:45Billy Corgan?

  Is that something you feel you were born with? Or you, that became something you adapt, used as an adoptive strategy to get through life?

• 9:53Speaker 04

  I think because I grew up in a house where everything was so like chaotic and hectic, that I was a protector of my sister, of, she's like, we had like crazy things happen when she was young. Like she almost drowned when she was like three. And she was, she fell into this well. We had this big well in the center of our upper backyard. And she was, all I could see was her hand, she was drowning.

• 10:16Billy Corgan?

  Oh my god.

• 10:16Speaker 04

  And I ran, you know, to get mom and dad. They were, they were still married and everything. And they came running down the hall and dad pulled her out. And so I've always had this protective feeling over Wendy. And so I think that that started my, I have to be strong and great and be the one to have like the answers and the protector. And, you know, and then inside, I think there was panic.

• 10:39Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 10:40Speaker 04

  So, I mean, this, this is getting really deep, but this is where songwriting.

• 10:44Billy Corgan?

  It's what we're here to do. Because, no, because there is a connective tissue. You understand where I'm going.

• 10:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, I know.

• 10:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because you do have to open up into an unfamiliar space.

• 10:53Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, it's a vessel, you know, and it's in there. And I think the feelings are familiar, but the. But I don't know how to say it, like getting it on, getting in a melody or in a lyric. Lyrics I'm not great with. I get like ideas, like I want to write a song about a train. You know, that was my thing last month. I'm like, I know I've got to write a song about a train. Like we get on the train, it's moving and we get off at different stops and, you know, and it was, you know, what inspired me was John Mayer's song called Stop This Train, which is my favorite John Mayer song. I love John Mayer. I'm slightly obsessed.

• 11:32Speaker 04

  Him in particular, because he's hot as hell, but his music and his voice and his songwriting, I love it. And Stop This Train blew my mind. And so I'm like, I want to write a song about a train as well.

• 11:45Billy Corgan?

  Well, your father famously worked with other lyricists too.

• 11:48Speaker 04

  He did, yes.

• 11:49Billy Corgan?

  So for playing the game of the genetic line, maybe you inherited the gift of melody, but not necessarily the gift of lyrics, right?

• 11:56Speaker 04

  I absolutely think you're right. I mean, it's always about vocals and melody and harmonies and arrangements and that.

• 12:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:04Speaker 04

  It's never been lyrics. But that's why I think co-writing with my sister in China was good. Because we all kind of contributed something that was, that was right. But it's been so long since we've written together.

• 12:17Billy Corgan?

  Why do you think that is?

• 12:21Speaker 04

  Ego.

• 12:22Billy Corgan?

  The destroyer of all bands.

• 12:24Speaker 04

  Of all bands.

• 12:26Billy Corgan?

  It's not money, really. It's ultimately about ego. So I wanted to ask you this too, because you were born in 68.

• 12:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:33Billy Corgan?

  So Sunflower, the Beach Boys album, came out in 70. Surf's Up was 71 and Holland was 73. And then you guys moved to Holland or something? Do I have that story right?

• 12:43Speaker 04

  You do. We moved to Holland while they were recording it.

• 12:46Billy Corgan?

  So is that your first memory of that camp and working? And I mean, obviously it's your family.

• 12:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:51Billy Corgan?

  That's worth pointing out. Because, you know, most bands, everybody goes different directions when the tour's over.

• 12:56Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 12:57Billy Corgan?

  But in your guys' case, like, it's the family.

• 12:59Speaker 04

  It's the family and Dad went through his like ups and downs of like using drugs, not using drugs, having help from outside sources and programs and things that he got involved with. And then it was like, is he going to be involved with this album or is he not?

• 13:14Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 13:15Speaker 04

  And Holland, we were, I was young. I mean...

• 13:19Billy Corgan?

  You would have been five?

• 13:20Speaker 04

  Five. And so I was in kindergarten and we moved. And I remember going to school in Holland and feeding the horses apples and... And then, of course, another.

• 13:29Billy Corgan?

  Was this a temporary thing, like, we're gonna make this album over here? It wasn't like we're all moving to Holland, right?

• 13:34Speaker 04

  Well, we moved to Holland while he was recording.

• 13:37Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but it wasn't like you guys were...

• 13:38Speaker 04

  No, no.

• 13:39Billy Corgan?

  Because I saw some quote from one of your relatives saying something like, I think because they didn't... Something to do with they weren't happy with America and how America was treating them.

• 13:47Speaker 04

  No, it wasn't that at all.

• 13:48Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 13:48Speaker 04

  It was, they were recording and we moved there and they did vocals there and recorded, you know, the album. I don't really know all the details, but I know that we were, we were temporarily...

• 13:59Billy Corgan?

  Again, I'm more...

• 14:00Speaker 04

  Six months.

• 14:00Billy Corgan?

  I'm more interested in your memory, that's why.

• 14:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, it was, it was, it was actually a really hard time because my dad was drinking a lot at that, at that time. And he actually got in a car, a car accident, wrapped his Lincoln around a tree and walked away from the accident. He was fine, but there was a lot of crazy... And my mom was, was young, you know, she was twenty, twenty-five, you know? And so, I mean, my daughter's gonna be twenty, so I'm just thinking like, wow, five years after she turns twenty, this is what she was dealing with, um, it was a lot. But Holland was a very intense album and, and kind of scary. It's kind of a scary album. There was some weird on there, like that Jack the Ripper thing with Jack O'Reilly and weird, you know, like,

• 14:47Speaker 04

  the Pied Piper, I remember. I couldn't believe how scary that was.

• 14:50Billy Corgan?

  I kinda liked Dark Beach Boys, but I didn't live it, you know?

• 14:53Speaker 04

  Oh, I love it. Oh, I, but I, as a kid, it was like really different. And, you know?

• 15:00Billy Corgan?

  I'm curious, um, you know, your mom had done music and that's how your parents met, but like, was that something that she set aside? She wasn't that serious about, like, what's your impression of that? Because I'm curious.

• 15:13Speaker 04

  Well, she was very young, fourteen when she met him, or fourteen and a half. And he was just like, just getting into the first record and stardom, like, right in the beginning.

• 15:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:23Speaker 04

  So this would have been, I don't know.

• 15:26Billy Corgan?

  Sixty-three.

• 15:26Speaker 04

  Sixty, sixty, yeah. And so, um, she went to a concert and she was in the front row and she had some hot chocolate. And my dad said, can I have a sip? He was on stage and he took a sip and then he, he like spilled it all over her. And then he, like...

• 15:43Billy Corgan?

  Interesting way to meet.

• 15:44Speaker 04

  Right, that started it. And then he proposed to her while he was in Germany over the phone. He asked her to marry him. He was in Germany touring.

• 15:51Billy Corgan?

  Very rock star.

• 15:52Speaker 04

  Very rock star. And mom was 16. And my grandparents, my grandfather was this man who looked exactly like Einstein, like a clone of Einstein. German and big, thick accent, an incredible man. Escaped like World War II on foot, just like went to, you know, Chicago. Met my grandma and my, my parents adored my dad. Sorry, my grandparents adored my dad. Like beyond, and he loved them. She was this short, little Jewish woman and she was a great cook, god damn it. And he loved her matzo ball soup. So he would go and they had a little piano.

• 16:37Speaker 04

  And they just fell in love with him and they trusted him. So they trusted him. And you know, back then it was, people were getting married and hooking up so young.

• 16:44Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 16:45Speaker 04

  But it was like they knew that he was, he was the one.

• 16:47Billy Corgan?

  Just to not skip past the question. Was music something your mom? I don't think she abandoned it, but it seemed like she had a moment and then it just didn't happen like.

• 16:57Speaker 04

  I don't think it started until, until him.

• 17:00Billy Corgan?

  Oh, because I, my impression was she was doing something before she met your father.

• 17:04Speaker 04

  No, I don't, I don't think so.

• 17:05Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay. Maybe I got the story reversed.

• 17:07Speaker 04

  You know, I don't know the answer to that and I don't know why. Maybe it's all the pot I smoked, I forgot. But like, but like I just remember she and Auntie Dee Dee and Ginger, they had the honeys and dad, you know, produced them and they were great.

• 17:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because I've, I've read something, but again, it's the internet. Who knows? It was something about she was doing something on local television and that's how they met or something.

• 17:30Speaker 04

  I don't know.

• 17:31Billy Corgan?

  It's not important. It's more just the idea. Was there a musical ambition from your mother's side of the equation too?

• 17:37Speaker 04

  I think there was. I think she was very interested in music.

• 17:39Billy Corgan?

  Did she ever really return back to music at any point?

• 17:41Speaker 04

  The honeys reunited in like the eighties and they made, or late seventies. And they made a record and it was, it was really good, actually. I remember them recording Temptation Eyes. My mom sang it great. But my favorite music was my mom and my Auntie Dee Dee. They, they did an album called Spring. They were a group called Spring. And it's, have you heard it before?

• 18:04Billy Corgan?

  No.

• 18:04Speaker 04

  Oh, my god. I mean, there's a song called "This Whole World", and "Tennessee Waltz", and "Awake", and all these songs. My mom's, but mom's version of, what's the superstar?

• 18:19Billy Corgan?

  Oh, by The Carpenters?

• 18:20Speaker 04

  Jesus Christ. My mother's version. And my dad's like, I say, "Who's your favorite singer in the world?" "Your mother." He loves my mom's voice. I said, "Who's a better singer, Barbra Streisand or my mom?" "Your mother." It's so him to do that.

• 18:36Billy Corgan?

  So your mom born in Chicago? So, we share that.

• 18:39Speaker 04

  Oh, nice.

• 18:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:40Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, and they came, they were very, very poor. One pair of shoes. My grandfather was a vacuum salesman. And, um, yeah, and then all of a sudden, here comes dad. Just changed everything.

• 18:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:54Speaker 04

  You know?

• 18:55Billy Corgan?

  Well, it's easy now, we look back and we see, you know, like your father and the Beatles at these young ages, creating this music which we're all still listening to. And they have no idea what's coming.

• 19:05Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 19:06Billy Corgan?

  None. It's easy for us to sit back and say, "Oh, so-and-so should have done this and made a left here at the street."

• 19:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:11Billy Corgan?

  They had no idea what was coming. None.

• 19:14Speaker 04

  I think they were in, just in their creative space. And it was so authentic and pure. And just inside of them. And so cool that they weren't influenced by other [BLEEP], like we are today. You know what I mean? It was the absolute most purest, wasn't it?

• 19:32Billy Corgan?

  Well, back then, you were rewarded for creating your own world.

• 19:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:35Billy Corgan?

  Like you truly, now it's, we live in this homogeny, where everyone's trying to sound like each other, which is so weird to me.

• 19:39Speaker 04

  It's so weird to me. It's so odd. Like, I can't, how many girls can sound like Billie Eilish? I don't know.

• 19:45Billy Corgan?

  Well, apparently, a thousand more.

• 19:47Speaker 04

  Yeah. I actually love Billie. I actually love her.

• 19:51Billy Corgan?

  Well, here's my issue with pop music. If you take the top artists, they're really good. I mean, there's no mistake. It's the 999 behind them that you're like, "Oh, my God, like, what are you doing? Like, how is that happiness? I don't get that."

• 20:06Speaker 04

  I just think... That fame is more important than the artistry.

• 20:10Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's the new, that's the new economy we live in.

• 20:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, it's frightening, but.

• 20:15Billy Corgan?

  I mean, you think about it, just sorry to opine, but, you know, I mean, your father basically created the album template that inspired The Beatles, right? And inspired countless nerds like me to try to create our own worlds, right? That's such a beautiful aspirational thing, that I can create this world with my gift of music. And it's all been reduced into this thing of like, one song, three minutes. God forbid it's anything too different than anybody else is doing. It's very strange, right?

• 20:44Speaker 04

  It is strange, but then, that's why when girls, young girls, and they say, "Do you have any advice, you know, for me? Because I want to be a singer or a songwriter." And I always say the same thing. I just say, "Do what's inside of your soul and your heart." And it's, it's about expression and not necessarily the reaction. It's about expression.

• 21:07Billy Corgan?

  It's very hard for them to understand because they live in a click economy.

• 21:09Speaker 04

  I know.

• 21:10Billy Corgan?

  So if somebody's not clicking, it must be bad.

• 21:12Speaker 04

  And also, like, how do you make a living?

• 21:15Billy Corgan?

  Well, you don't.

• 21:16Speaker 04

  You don't. And like, I was 18 years old when we started Wilson Phillips. I mean, I, I knew that I was going to go into the entertainment industry the minute, I thought I was going to be an actress. That, that's where I started. It was on the stage at school, and that's where I found my comfort, my home. I loved it. Music always, always a thread, musicals. I remember Dad coming to see me in a musical called Carnival. He saw me really belted and sing for the first time. He loved it, but I, I don't know. I, I think it's just changed so much.

• 21:42Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 21:44Speaker 04

  The industry.

• 21:45Billy Corgan?

  You brought Wilson Phillips, so that's not probably a good place to go there. Was the, was the idea of you guys recording an organic thing? And then you went and got a deal? Or did somebody kind of think, you know what I'm saying? Like, how did that happen? Because I'm so cynical from being in this town too many years. I don't live here, but I mean, I've been here enough.

• 22:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:04Billy Corgan?

  You know, when we were kids and you guys were suddenly on MTV, it just seemed like somebody put the whole thing together because it just felt like that. But that's not, I'm not saying that's what happened.

• 22:12Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, I'm sure there's. Many different perceptions of it.

• 22:16Billy Corgan?

  No, but you tell me. I'm saying you were there, you know.

• 22:18Speaker 04

  I mean, it was extremely organic and it was actually a mission of mine. Wilson Phillips wasn't the mission, but my mission was singing harmony with people.

• 22:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:30Speaker 04

  In the eighth grade, I became obsessed with getting anybody that would have an ear.

• 22:36Billy Corgan?

  That's the family business, though. Isn't that fantastic?

• 22:38Speaker 04

  So great.

• 22:39Billy Corgan?

  Because I'm not a good harmony person. Musically, yes, but I don't hear it that way.

• 22:45Speaker 04

  I love singing harmony with anyone, like a bum. I would sing with a bum. I just want to sing. I can't get over harmony.

• 22:54Billy Corgan?

  But that's the family business. But it's so beautiful.

• 22:56Speaker 04

  It is so beautiful. And I remember getting like during lunch periods and any time I had the and I sang Kodachrome with my principal. She's like so.

• 23:07Billy Corgan?

  Kodachrome?

• 23:08Speaker 04

  Kodachrome.

• 23:09Billy Corgan?

  Paul Simon?

• 23:10Speaker 04

  Paul Simon.

• 23:12Billy Corgan?

  Not a bad song, though.

• 23:12Speaker 04

  I know, I know. So like I went to this school called Oakwood and I met my best friend. Like Jackson Brown was teaching a songwriting class in the third grade, summer of third grade, and that's where I met my best friend.

• 23:26Billy Corgan?

  Who's your best friend?

• 23:27Speaker 04

  Tiffany.

• 23:27Billy Corgan?

  Tiffany?

• 23:28Speaker 04

  Tiffany Miller. She used to work.

• 23:30Billy Corgan?

  Are you still friends?

• 23:31Speaker 04

  Oh, God, yes. The best of friends forever. But we met like Jackson Brown. That was the kind of school we went to. It was Oakwood School. All the kids' parents were in the industry. And Jackson Brown was teaching a songwriting class, but you know, I, they were very, they were understanding of kids and their different talents. Everybody went to college in my grade, except for me. I was the only one. And I went straight into Wilson Phillips. It was, that was the summer. But I could not, I could not not do it. And so, believe it or not, Mama Cass's daughter, Owen, and Owen asked China to sing, to get

• 24:13Speaker 04

  kids of 60s rock stars' kids, did I say that right?

• 24:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 24:19Speaker 04

  Together for a charity record, like one song, record one song and give all the money to charity.

• 24:24Billy Corgan?

  So it started as a sort of a.

• 24:26Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 24:26Billy Corgan?

  Eagleitarian.

• 24:28Speaker 04

  It did. And it was like.

• 24:31Speaker 04

  It was Donovan's kids, Jerry Garcia's kids, Zappa's, the Zappas, the Wilsons, Phillips, and nobody wanted to do it.

• 24:43Billy Corgan?

  What do you mean, no one wanted to do it?

• 24:44Speaker 04

  Everybody passed it. Nope, not into it. And there was a Rolling Stone article, and it was, Annie Leibowitz did the cover, and we were in it. It was a horrible picture, but it was like the first like, thing I had in it magazine, and it was Wendy and I, and other kids were featured. And I think that's what sparked the idea for Owen, but nobody wanted to do it, except Owen, China, Wendy and I. So it was the Wilson, there was the Wilson girls, and then the Phillips family, and Cass Elliot.

• 25:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:15Speaker 04

  Mom and Papa's Beach Boys kids that came together.

• 25:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:18Speaker 04

  And we, of course, and I was like, this is when I was big stoner. So it was always about waking up and just getting ripped to the, just always smoking pot.

• 25:27Billy Corgan?

  Did your parents know you were smoking pot?

• 25:27Speaker 04

  Oh yeah, and Mom, and I actually, I actually forced her to take a bong hit, and she was trying to put her whole mouth like over the bong.

• 25:34Billy Corgan?

  And she'd never been stoned, or?

• 25:34Speaker 04

  She, no, I think she got stoned, but at one point, she just, she just like let us do it, because I never got in trouble, but I, she knew that I was, that I was, we were potheads.

• 25:45Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 25:45Speaker 04

  And I know that sounds crazy, but...

• 25:47Billy Corgan?

  No, I know a lot of parents like that.

• 25:49Speaker 04

  She trusted us, so we, all we wanted to do was just get stoned and listen to music. And the CD had just come out, so I couldn't get over how crispy and clean and lovely it sounded. So like the first CD I bought was Genesis, Abicab, and, which I love.

• 26:03Billy Corgan?

  I had that album too.

• 26:04Speaker 04

  You, oh my God.

• 26:05Billy Corgan?

  So we're basically the same age, we've had the same, we've been damaged by the same music.

• 26:10Speaker 04

  Oh, I love it. There's nothing like the drums on Abicab. So, Abicab...

• 26:14Billy Corgan?

  My dad saw that too, actually.

• 26:16Speaker 04

  Oh, lucky. Oh my God, he's the most underrated artist ever, in my opinion. But, so it was Abicab.

• 26:22Billy Corgan?

  You're just talking about Phil Collins.

• 26:23Speaker 04

  Oh, Collins. Oh, God. And then Wild Heart, Stevie Nicks album, and a few more, but...

• 26:32Speaker 04

  Got everybody, oh, heart. And we started singing Dog and Butterfly. And it was like, okay, let's hear what it sounds like when Wendy, China and I harmonize. And it was like, oh, it was like a tidal wave, you know? It was just, it just like, the sound enveloped us and just, it was the most warm sound ever. And Owen sounded good, too. But her voice stuck out.

• 26:58Billy Corgan?

  Too much, yeah.

• 26:59Speaker 04

  It didn't work with our blend.

• 27:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:01Speaker 04

  And it was very sad. We, we, we, so then we were singing, singing, and it was like, oh, come over again and let's just sing again. Let's just get on the floor and just harmonize. So just started with the love of that. And then my mom came down from upstairs and she said, what are you doing? And we said, we're singing harmony. And she goes, I hear you through the ceiling, through the floor.

• 27:25Billy Corgan?

  Yes, that's the harmonics that cut through, yeah.

• 27:27Speaker 04

  She was like, you sound so good together, do you know that? We said, yeah, we can't. We, we love it, like, but we don't know what to do, you know? And she, and then China goes, I think we should call my mom and ask her, because she knows a lot of producers. So we called Michelle.

• 27:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:45Speaker 04

  And she's like, I know Richard Perry is a great friend of mine. And he's produced The Pointer Sisters and Barbra Streisand and Carly Simon. And I would be a Carly Simon, like fanatic. And Barbra Streisand, my favorite singer of all time, you know, and Karen Carpenter. But Barbra Streisand was another love. Eldon and Barbo, whoo. But, so we were like, okay, we're gonna call Richard Perry. And he goes, well, why don't you rehearse something and then come over to my house? Another fellow stoner, you know, so. But he was a big stoner. So we sang, um, all we could do was prepare five words from a Stevie Nicks song called Wild Heart.

• 28:24Billy Corgan?

  That was your audition?

• 28:25Speaker 04

  It was just Dare My Wild Heart. And we went in.

• 28:28Billy Corgan?

  You still remember your part?

• 28:30Speaker 04

  Uh, well, yeah, I don't know.

• 28:32Billy Corgan?

  Sorry.

• 28:32Speaker 04

  I'm always the low harmony. I'm always the low.

• 28:35Billy Corgan?

  We've got a nice chest voice.

• 28:38Speaker 04

  Thank you, but like, China never knew how to sing harmony, so we had to teach her. And she still really doesn't know how. She does, but that's why she's better on melody. She just can't. Wendy naturally goes to the high. I naturally go low. And it's always that stacked of like, and I don't know technically the term, but it's like, China's middle, I'm low, and Wendy's above. So that's where we're comfortable in. So like, it was, you know, we just went in and Owen was with us. So it was the four of us.

• 29:05Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 29:05Speaker 04

  And we went to his house and we sang "Dar my Wild Heart" and he went, "That's it?" First of all, he was rolling a joint, smoking his joint. He's like, "Okay."

• 29:13Billy Corgan?

  So you're with this famous producer.

• 29:14Speaker 04

  Famous producer.

• 29:15Billy Corgan?

  And you're only singing a line, basically five words.

• 29:18Speaker 04

  And we sing one line of a chorus. And he's getting high.

• 29:22Billy Corgan?

  And you're how old at this point? You're 18?

• 29:23Speaker 04

  We're 18.

• 29:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 29:24Speaker 04

  Fresh out of high school. And he went, "That's it?" And we said, "Yeah, what do you think? Do you like our sound?" You know? And he goes, and he was, he must have been high as a kite. He was like, "I s-" and I know this is dramatic, but he's like, "I see the Beatles. I see." He's like, "You need to call your band Pretzels with Mustard." And we're like, "Okay, you're A, you're clearly wasted and have the munchies."

• 29:51Billy Corgan?

  Were you stoned too, though?

• 29:52Speaker 04

  Who knows? Probably, probably. I don't remember smoking with him.

• 29:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:56Speaker 04

  But it was like part of the thing, like, just like, you know, the producer's getting high.

• 30:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I guess.

• 30:02Speaker 04

  It was just so part of it all. But we were like, "Yeah, that's all we have." And he's like, "Oh, I know what to do. I'm getting you together with another producer who was a writer and, or no, who's a producer who's worked with the Pointer Sisters. You guys have to get in the studio and get comfortable around a microphone." So we went in. It was good advice, yeah. And we recorded, our first song we ever recorded in the studio was "Mama Said." Mama said there'll be days like this.

• 30:27Billy Corgan?

  Oh, that one. I was confusing with the Lenny Kravitz Mama Said.

• 30:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know. Mama Said.

• 30:32Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I know that song, yeah.

• 30:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:33Billy Corgan?

  Mama said there'll be days like this.

• 30:35Speaker 04

  Mama said, mama said. So I had the high part, which was the most... It was... I can't even get... It was so high. I don't know why he had me singing that, but I had the high part. And so, it was cute.

• 30:47Billy Corgan?

  Do you think he was... Because you know, your father famously would sing very high. Do you think he was trying to test you up there to see if you had that same falsetto?

• 30:55Speaker 04

  Maybe, but he just... He didn't know us, he didn't know our...

• 30:59Billy Corgan?

  Who was the person?

• 31:01Speaker 04

  It was Richard Perry.

• 31:02Billy Corgan?

  Oh, but... So Richard Perry takes you in the studio?

• 31:04Speaker 04

  Richard Perry produced us for that song. But Jim Trakt was the one who got us comfortable.

• 31:10Billy Corgan?

  I was just trying to understand.

• 31:10Speaker 04

  Like the associate. He was the executive producer, you know? Richard was the executive producer, so... But he was a strange producer. He actually said, can you... This is so politically incorrect today. He was like, can you sing it a little more like retarded? But he didn't say it right, though. He meant like retard, like slow it down or something. So I heard it as retarded.

• 31:32Billy Corgan?

  That's why I heard it.

• 31:34Speaker 04

  It was really weird, but yeah. So anyway, so then he said, you know, the only way you guys are gonna get any respect in this business is to write your own music. You have to write your music.

• 31:44Billy Corgan?

  Beautiful advice.

• 31:45Speaker 04

  Thank God. So he goes, I know the guy, and it's Glenn Ballard. So, everything changed the moment we met Glenn. It was the greatest thing that ever happened to us, ever. Ever, ever, ever. Just, the only thing I can think of is just magical, golden sparks of love. That was really weird. But, yeah. Yeah, that's it. It was just beyond. Living in a casino, in that little garage. And I have the best memories ever.

• 32:18Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so give us a snapshot.

• 32:20Speaker 04

  Just go in and like, he was telling us that he came from music publishing. He worked his way up. He worked for Elton John, MCA. He wrote a song called "Man in the Mirror" from Michael Jackson and...

• 32:33Billy Corgan?

  So he had you there, right?

• 32:34Speaker 04

  And we were like, "What?" And with Sayyida Garrett and then we started...

• 32:41Billy Corgan?

  Was it called Wilson Phillips? Was that your guys? Okay.

• 32:43Speaker 04

  We had, so we had no name. We knew that we had to write songs and get some kind of demo together.

• 32:50Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 32:51Speaker 04

  So that we could shop a record deal. And the guy that was kind of our, I don't know, the guy that took us to the record companies. He was an A&R guy. His name was Artie Mogul and he discovered Kenny Rogers, Crystal Gale and, and...

• 33:07Billy Corgan?

  They must have spelled money on you guys.

• 33:10Speaker 04

  They knew. I think the sound was the driving force. So nobody really gave a what we sang. They just knew that...

• 33:19Billy Corgan?

  That sounds so perfect for this town, but it's true.

• 33:21Speaker 04

  But it's true.

• 33:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 33:22Speaker 04

  And we were like, "Well, that's fine, but we have to write, write music. We have to express what's in us and we know we've got something in there." It was Young Love. We were 18, 19. I mean, I was like, with breaking up, getting together. China had a terrible relationship, Wendy too. It was all over the place and we wanted to write about it. And Glenn was the person that made us feel really comfortable. He loved our sound. That was a given. But it was more about like, how, what do you want to say, girls? And we would be like, "Well, we're just, we're breaking up. We're getting back together," you know? Whatever it is. And Glenn always had this angle. He was able to sort of tap into the more youthful, but bring his... He is a very kind, loving soul.

• 34:07Speaker 04

  And so his almost fatherly figure with us, we felt safe to write with him.

• 34:13Billy Corgan?

  That's amazing.

• 34:14Speaker 04

  It was amazing. And it was an amazing collaboration. So when we wrote "You're in Love," we were great collaborators together. We all could just, it was, because four people writing together can be hard. But it was like, he would start some kind of melody on the piano and then China would go, "Oh, how about, you know, this?" And then I would go, "Well, wait, let's, let's, let's move to the left and try this," you know? It was just really, and then Wendy would have a great lyrical idea, lyric idea and...

• 34:44Speaker 04

  It was really wonderful, that whole process. It was so long ago that, I mean, I'm 56, so that was 38 years ago. So like, I don't, I just remember it was the most creative, magical thing I've ever felt. And it was very purposeful. It was like, there was this goal and when we, when we had, so he would, we would make these, we would start with a track and then Glenn would record the music and then he would say, "Take these tapes home and see if you can come up with some melodies and lyrics." And we did a lot of writing like that.

• 35:19Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 35:20Speaker 04

  So we would have writing sessions separately and with him. But with "Release Me," that was the song that we wrote by ourselves, the first song. The only song we wrote by ourselves, that song. But "Hold On" was clearly just by the grace of God. And it was annoying what happened. He had an idea for music and he said, "I only have time to make one tape, so I'm gonna let you guys take this." China took it home. And we were like, "Okay, well, we'll get together and write." But it happened so fast, and thank God it did. Because it was something that she was going through with sobriety. And it was like this one day at a time, one day at a time.

• 36:02Speaker 04

  And if I could just hold on for one day and get through to the next day, then, then everything will be okay. And that's where "Hold On" came about. And I kind of came in and wrote a little bit at the end and, you know, sort of added some stuff arrangement-wise, too. But it was really her expression. And it was, and when she presented it to us, it was on a yellow pad of paper. And I was annoyed because I thought, "Well, I didn't get a chance to contribute to this." When he was like, "We didn't get a chance," but it was so good. And it was nearly finished, wasn't quite all finished, but it was nearly finished. And we said, "Oh, God, that driving, you know, someday somebody's gonna be..." What a great, like, driving chorus.

• 36:45Speaker 04

  And, and then like, when the harmonies would come in, it was just, we knew it was something really big.

• 36:51Billy Corgan?

  Well, what, 10, 10?

• 36:53Speaker 04

  10 million records?

• 36:54Billy Corgan?

  10 million records. Wait, let me look at my little stats here.

• 36:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:58Billy Corgan?

  125 weeks on the charts, Grammy nominations for Album and Song of the Year.

• 37:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, Best New Artist.

• 37:07Billy Corgan?

  So that's pretty heady stuff, like 18 years old. I mean, yes, you grew up around it, but now it's your time.

• 37:15Speaker 04

  So we were 22 when we finally, we spent four years in the studio writing songs.

• 37:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I didn't know that part, yeah.

• 37:21Speaker 04

  So it was 18, so I was 22 when the first album came out. And we spent a long time, you know, writing and trying to figure out, you know, just getting a stack of songs together. And then, so Artie brought us to Charles Koppelman and SBK Records. And he was, I remember Valentine's Day, we had met with every record company there was.

• 37:44Billy Corgan?

  What was the general vibe?

• 37:46Speaker 04

  The general vibe was, we, we loved this sound.

• 37:49Billy Corgan?

  What?

• 37:52Speaker 04

  But there were people that were very, very negative. You're just riding on the coattails of your parents, you know, is this, is this real? And, um.

• 38:00Billy Corgan?

  What does that even mean?

• 38:01Speaker 04

  Yeah. I don't know, it was like, but, but then again on Valentine's.

• 38:06Billy Corgan?

  My, my brain would go to, if you were trying to sound like the Beach Boys or Mamas and the Papas, that, but you weren't.

• 38:12Speaker 04

  We weren't, but it was because I think we were harmony-based that it was like.

• 38:17Billy Corgan?

  That's what happens when non-musicians make decisions about music.

• 38:21Speaker 04

  Right.

• 38:23Billy Corgan?

  Cause there's only so many different ways to do music.

• 38:25Speaker 04

  I know. And it was frustrating, but there was just a few people that got it.

• 38:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:34Speaker 04

  And one of them was a guy from MCA, I forgot his name. He ran MCA for a while. And I woke up on Valentine's Day and I had roses delivered by like 10, seven record companies. And I remember the card from MCA, it said, roses are red, violets are blue, MCA is the home for you.

• 38:51Billy Corgan?

  Somebody took a long time to work on that.

• 38:53Speaker 04

  To work on that. So it was like, oh, so we literally got to pick the record company that wanted to sign us. It was an unbelievable position to be in. But we were confident, we were not around, we were serious.

• 39:10Billy Corgan?

  And how were your parents, cause you know, I know I'm, I have kids and my instinct would be, I would want to swoop in and make sure my kids aren't about to get gypped by the business, because I've been gypped by the business.

• 39:24Speaker 04

  Right.

• 39:24Billy Corgan?

  Did your dad or mom get protective?

• 39:27Speaker 04

  Yes. Yeah, dad said one thing, watch out for the sharks.

• 39:32Speaker 04

  That was it.

• 39:33Billy Corgan?

  Is that your imitation of your father?

• 39:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, it is. And it's really good, actually. He's very funny. He's so funny. That's all he said, was "Watch out for the sharks." And there was very, very limited time with him because he was with Dr. Landy at that time, so...

• 39:47Billy Corgan?

  That whole thing.

• 39:48Speaker 04

  That was awful. And we wrote some songs about that, and it was incredibly painful. And that was, that was the, that was the source of a lot of pain and, and good material, you know, to write about. But we chose Charles Cobbleman because he, he believed in us and he, he was a, he said to me, you know, "I'm a music man." You know, I, and that's what you guys are. This is real. It's, you have a lot to say. So, we love that he wasn't looking at us like this money-making thing, which, which we made them a lot of money, millions and millions, but...

• 40:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because, let me hit pause, because, you know, the beauty of the MTV era...

• 40:29Speaker 04

  Right.

• 40:30Billy Corgan?

  Which were, I mean, it exists, but it's not like it was, but was, you know, there I am in my, you know, my goth apartment, you know, whenever this is.

• 40:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:40Billy Corgan?

  And, you know, there was no escaping you guys. But, the cool thing was, is I have very clear memories of hearing those songs, watching the videos.

• 40:48Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 40:49Billy Corgan?

  Kind of coming up with my own kind of conclusions, fair or not. But the, you know, the cynical part of me assumed it was some sort of construction. So, it's cool to hear that it was organically driven. And I didn't realize until I did the research to interview with you, is, is that Glenn was involved. I know Glenn a little bit. And, and it makes sense to me, you know, that he was so instrumental in that.

• 41:12Speaker 04

  He had this magical way of letting each, all three of us express ourselves. And strong personalities. Wendy, Wendy has a strong personality, but it's more of a, she's a strong woman. She's a survivor. But she's not vocal. She's not very vocal. And I'm horrifically vocal and controlling.

• 41:33Billy Corgan?

  Hadn't, hadn't noticed, but...

• 41:35Speaker 04

  Very controlling. And it was...

• 41:38Billy Corgan?

  Am I doing okay so far?

• 41:40Speaker 04

  You're so funny. You're amazing. You're easy to talk to.

• 41:45Billy Corgan?

  Well.

• 41:46Speaker 04

  You're easy for me to open up to.

• 41:47Billy Corgan?

  I think the sneaky advantage I have is that I'm a musician, you see.

• 41:51Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 41:52Billy Corgan?

  I know the way we collectively, we think.

• 41:55Speaker 04

  We think.

• 41:56Billy Corgan?

  And most people who interview us don't understand the way we actually think.

• 41:59Speaker 04

  I know.

• 42:00Billy Corgan?

  They have a Hollywood movie version of the way that we think, but they don't really. So when you're talking about Glenn, the demoing, all the hours that you would put in.

• 42:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:09Billy Corgan?

  The feeling that like I can do something on my own, that's super important.

• 42:14Speaker 04

  Super important and that's the creation, you know, it's the creation of it. And there are so many man, just man-made, you know, it's kind of like me. It's kind of like deciding right now, like, do I get quartzite countertops or quartz? One is a natural stone and one is a man-made. And my heart wants quartzite.

• 42:37Speaker 04

  You know, so it's like, I don't know.

• 42:38Billy Corgan?

  I didn't follow you on that.

• 42:39Speaker 04

  Well, it's kind of like this fabrication thing, you know.

• 42:42Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I get you.

• 42:42Speaker 04

  Is it real or is it fake? Is it?

• 42:44Billy Corgan?

  See, that's one thing that impresses me going back and listening to your music. Of course, I heard it all at the time, but what really strikes me now at my youthful age of 57 is is that you guys weren't trying to sound like your parents' bands.

• 42:58Speaker 04

  No.

• 42:59Billy Corgan?

  It didn't strike me then at the time because I just, I was like, well, what is this, right? You know?

• 43:04Speaker 04

  We never.

• 43:04Billy Corgan?

  Because of course, all the marketing was about you're the children of, right?

• 43:07Speaker 04

  Of course. Well, that's how, like, really? Oh, that's kind of cool. I wonder what they sound like.

• 43:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it is what it is, but I'm saying is, you know, I'm in some apartment in Chicago. All I know is you guys are on TV every five seconds.

• 43:17Speaker 04

  Every five seconds and the videos were annoying. And it was, and we were.

• 43:21Billy Corgan?

  Was the one on the beach? Was it something on a beach?

• 43:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, hold on.

• 43:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 43:24Speaker 04

  Well, okay, so, okay, so the creative process and the recording and the music was hands down the best part of it. And touring was minimal and we did that and it was fun, but. It was that our favorite thing to do was be in the studio. And that's what we loved. Everything else was a pain in the ass. And so they used us to to get SBK on the map. And we were traveling like five cities a day. And we were just exhausted.

• 43:52Billy Corgan?

  Meeting radio programmers and.

• 43:53Speaker 04

  Yes. And you know how it used to be. You had to go to the stations.

• 43:57Billy Corgan?

  You had to go to the stations. No zooming back then.

• 43:59Speaker 04

  No zooming. You go to the stations and and kiss ass to the program director. And, you know, I was particularly good at that. So we would like be, you know, chummy, whatever, going to dinners.

• 44:10Billy Corgan?

  What people don't see is the the 15 pictures you take with the staffers.

• 44:14Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 44:15Billy Corgan?

  And then the weird guy asking the the pet sounds question.

• 44:18Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 44:18Billy Corgan?

  When you're in the middle of your day and you just want to go get some lunch. And he wants to talk about Van Dyke Parks or something.

• 44:23Speaker 04

  Right. And then all that put together would get us the ad to get to on the radio station to get airplay. Then to get requests and then to move up the charts.

• 44:33Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 44:33Speaker 04

  The more ads we got, you know. So it was so insane. And but it was also thrilling. And here we are just growing up and, you know, experiencing this. And then it was like and then we're in the the, you know, in the in the van going from, you know, city to city. And then them saying, you're selling 150,000 records a week. And it was, we couldn't believe it.

• 44:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:00Speaker 04

  But we, when we were in the studio making the first record, I looked at everyone and I said, we're going to sell 10 million records. And they were like, you're crazy. And I said, no, yeah, we are. Yeah, we are. Yeah, we are.

• 45:12Billy Corgan?

  OK, so did you know the second one was only only going to sell two?

• 45:15Speaker 04

  Ah, I think it sold three.

• 45:17Billy Corgan?

  OK.

• 45:17Speaker 04

  But anyway, we were told we were a failure after the second record came out.

• 45:21Billy Corgan?

  I've been there. I know that feeling.

• 45:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:23Billy Corgan?

  You only went platinum.

• 45:24Speaker 04

  That's right. Only platinum. And I'll never forget the conversation.

• 45:28Billy Corgan?

  I had the exact same thing happen to me.

• 45:29Speaker 04

  It's the worst.

• 45:30Billy Corgan?

  This record only went platinum.

• 45:32Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 45:33Billy Corgan?

  Now they would.

• 45:34Speaker 04

  Kill.

• 45:34Billy Corgan?

  Kill their children for a platinum record.

• 45:36Speaker 04

  Kill for a platinum record. I mean, a million records? Who sells a million records? I mean, maybe Ariana Grande.

• 45:43Billy Corgan?

  Only you know who.

• 45:43Speaker 04

  Billie Eddel, right, you know. I don't want to be like negative about the business.

• 45:49Billy Corgan?

  Please be negative about the business.

• 45:50Speaker 04

  I mean, I don't want to be negative about the business. Because I don't, I tend to not give things that I don't give a about any time.

• 45:59Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 46:00Speaker 04

  You know, like, I could go crazy about politics. I could go crazy about that. And yes, it does make a difference and my children aren't on this planet.

• 46:09Speaker 04

  But I'm very good at sweeping things under the carpet, too. I'm an alcoholic, you know, recovering alcoholic. I'm so used to numbing the shit out.

• 46:17Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so, take me into that because, obviously, there would have been a lot of energy going into the second record.

• 46:23Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 46:24Billy Corgan?

  Was it the musical atmosphere of the time, obviously Nirvana had all kicked in there, you got grunge, you guys were about as far away from grunge as you could be.

• 46:31Speaker 04

  Although, that, don't let me forget, okay, I'm derailing. This is important, later on, something happened with a guy who co-wrote Impulsive. And we wrote with him, and this has to do with you, so, okay.

• 46:44Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 46:44Speaker 04

  So you're saying.

• 46:45Billy Corgan?

  We'll hold that.

• 46:45Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 46:46Billy Corgan?

  So, what do you think were the circumstances that led it to only selling three million records? Which, again, it sounds crazy because that's still a very successful record.

• 46:58Speaker 04

  We had new managers come in, they were Janet Jackson's management, HK management. And they were on this kick that sex was gonna sell.

• 47:08Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 47:09Speaker 04

  And that we were too ordinary, two girls next door. And we needed to change our image.

• 47:13Billy Corgan?

  Oh, jeez.

• 47:14Speaker 04

  And that image was everything. So, on the first, for the first record, it was like, we were cool, we had cool coats on and jeans and white t-shirts and Hold On was a lovely video and Impulsive was fun and, you know, it was really cool. And then all of a sudden, it was like, for the second record, everything became very serious. The fighting started between the group. The pressure to make another album that was gonna be as successful as the first one.

• 47:38Billy Corgan?

  Musically, it feels a little bit more...

• 47:40Speaker 04

  No.

• 47:41Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 47:41Speaker 04

  That was personal. We were, we were grieving our parents, I shouldn't say it like that.

• 47:51Speaker 04

  All of our, we didn't get a chance to feel all the emotions growing up with songwriting and being able to get it on paper until the second record. And it was like, our life was on pause from 18 to 22. And then at 23, we had to make the other record. And what were we gonna write about? Well, we were all in therapy. We were all, you know, growing up and facing inner demons.

• 48:18Billy Corgan?

  Yep.

• 48:19Speaker 04

  And that was the basis of the second record.

• 48:21Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 48:22Speaker 04

  And...

• 48:22Billy Corgan?

  Because I was, I don't remember the second record.

• 48:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, Shadows and Light.

• 48:26Billy Corgan?

  No, but I'm saying, I'm saying at the time, I don't remember, I was in my own thing, so, you know what I'm saying? I don't, I have very distinct memories of the first one. The second one, I don't remember.

• 48:35Speaker 04

  Right.

• 48:35Billy Corgan?

  I found myself struggling, so when I went and listened to it, knowing I was gonna talk to you, I was surprised by the difference in the tone.

• 48:42Speaker 04

  So different.

• 48:43Billy Corgan?

  I actually, musically, it's very rich.

• 48:46Speaker 04

  It is.

• 48:47Billy Corgan?

  It's a good record, so it's not like, it's not like I listened to it and think, oh, man.

• 48:50Speaker 04

  Right.

• 48:51Billy Corgan?

  Like, you know, it's a WTF moment where you're like, oh, my God, what did they do? I was actually like, oh, there's something here.

• 48:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was different.

• 49:00Speaker 04

  It was like, we, I mean, I think it wasn't as organic as the first one. I don't know if that's the right word.

• 49:08Billy Corgan?

  But to be fair to you, everybody says the same thing about a second record, because

• 49:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:13Billy Corgan?

  if you're lucky enough to have success on the first record.

• 49:15Speaker 04

  Right, right.

• 49:15Billy Corgan?

  You just don't have the same time. And everything becomes a bit self observational.

• 49:20Speaker 04

  It does, and you try to capture.

• 49:22Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:22Speaker 04

  Capturing that...

• 49:24Billy Corgan?

  My favorite is now everybody has an opinion about what you should do when they didn't give a

• 49:28Speaker 04

  I know, I know!

• 49:29Billy Corgan?

  Now everybody's your, you know...

• 49:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, you should, yeah, it's so annoying.

• 49:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 49:34Speaker 04

  Worry about yourself.

• 49:37Speaker 04

  I love Shadows and Light, I love our second record, but it was the, it was the fighting with, with, with all of us, and it was always like...

• 49:45Billy Corgan?

  Okay, why, what's the fighting?

• 49:46Speaker 04

  Because I think that China had some difficulty being in a group. I think she wanted to express herself individually. And, and she just said, "I'm leaving."

• 49:59Billy Corgan?

  But that was at the end of the process, or no?

• 50:01Speaker 04

  That was at the end when Shadows and Light was considered the failure and we did like a mini tour and everything just changed. It all became kind of dark.

• 50:12Billy Corgan?

  Very fast, too.

• 50:13Speaker 04

  Fast, you know.

• 50:15Billy Corgan?

  It's a strange thing because first record's 90.

• 50:17Speaker 04

  Right.

• 50:18Billy Corgan?

  And, I mean, but you know, the mamas and papas didn't last that long either.

• 50:23Speaker 04

  I know. It was very short. It was like three years or six years.

• 50:26Billy Corgan?

  Three years, 24 charting singles in three years. They didn't tour, all they did was record. But it was the same thing, right?

• 50:33Speaker 04

  Yes, short.

• 50:34Billy Corgan?

  So in a weird way, like, again, who knows? It's just speculation.

• 50:37Speaker 04

  I actually didn't put that together, like, almost repeating history.

• 50:42Billy Corgan?

  Little odd, don't you think?

• 50:43Speaker 04

  It is. It's definitely coincidental.

• 50:45Billy Corgan?

  The father and the mother are in this huge band that lasts for three years and then implodes or explodes, and she's in this huge group. Three years, it's like, it's kind of odd.

• 50:56Speaker 04

  I know, but I think the struggle was inside of her.

• 51:00Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 51:01Speaker 04

  And it was just difficult.

• 51:03Billy Corgan?

  Not to jump too far in the timeline, I know she's very into her faith and I was watching some videos of her kind of proselytizing, walking around her neighborhood, talking about Jesus and stuff, which is fine, I'm a Christian, so it's all good, but what I'm saying is, do you think that was an early form of her own spiritual struggle too? Does it make sense?

• 51:22Speaker 04

  I think the struggle is in many areas for her, and for me, and for Wendy. And I think that the three of us have been friends since birth.

• 51:30Billy Corgan?

  Did the pressure sort of bring out the issues?

• 51:33Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 51:33Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so that's what I was trying to get at.

• 51:34Speaker 04

  The pressure, we couldn't, we couldn't come together with the pressure. Musically, we could come together, but spiritually, individually, inside of us, it was the egos. It became competitive.

• 51:52Billy Corgan?

  Oh, that's strange, right?

• 51:53Speaker 04

  It became competitive. It was like...

• 51:54Billy Corgan?

  Is that strange to you now, looking back?

• 51:56Speaker 04

  No, because it was so, I was so worried that Wendy and I were, you know, this is something that I don't think I've ever said publicly. When we first got together with Richard Perry, the cassette tape that we made, there was, it said, "The China Phillips Group."

• 52:20Speaker 04

  And that really me on.

• 52:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And that's one of those things you store in the back of your brain, right?

• 52:25Speaker 04

  And I thought to myself, well, wait a minute here. There would be no group if I had not gotten us together.

• 52:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:32Speaker 04

  And had that love of harmony and said, get in here and sing. And there wouldn't be a group if Owen hadn't said, let's record together.

• 52:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:39Speaker 04

  You know, I mean, there were five years where we didn't see China. She was doing, we had different lives. And she actually, when we opened the door, she didn't recognize Wendy. She introduced herself, hi, I'm China. And Wendy was like, it's me, Wendy, you know? Wendy had blonde hair and blue contacts in, and China didn't recognize her. But like, so, um, yeah, I was, I felt like we got off on the wrong foot. And I've always been the person, I love an ensemble. I love collective thinking, collective love, collective energy. And it's like, that's the best way to get the most out of it. You want to be a solo artist? Great, go. But when it's the three of us, it's the three of us.

• 53:22Speaker 04

  And clearly, that's, the proof is in the pudding.

• 53:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 53:26Speaker 04

  You know, that's what made the group, is the three. So when there was kind of like this, I want to stick out, I want to go solo.

• 53:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 53:34Speaker 04

  It upset me. And I had to accept it. And I remember crying on the phone to Glenn, saying, how could somebody walk away from something so successful? No matter how many records Shadows and Light sold. How could somebody walk away? I don't understand.

• 53:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. It is odd in hindsight that it's a story that really doesn't have a middle or an ending. It's just the beginning and then it just kind of, I mean, I know you guys have done other stuff.

• 54:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 54:00Billy Corgan?

  But that's different.

• 54:01Speaker 04

  Hasn't ended.

• 54:02Billy Corgan?

  Right, but you know what I'm saying is,

• 54:04Speaker 04

  Right.

• 54:06Billy Corgan?

  It'd be like if my band only put out two records.

• 54:08Speaker 04

  Right.

• 54:09Billy Corgan?

  And it was, you know, it's the kind of like, the what if?

• 54:11Speaker 04

  The what if.

• 54:12Billy Corgan?

  Because you're only in your sort of youthful prime for so many years.

• 54:15Speaker 04

  Right.

• 54:16Billy Corgan?

  And we know from music history, that's when a lot of the best music tends to get made. Because the passion is there, the, even the insanity, you know? Like, the whole, there's a fervor that happens with youth, you know? It's, it's,

• 54:29Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 54:29Billy Corgan?

  Sex, drugs, and rock and roll, right? It all kind of feeds into something.

• 54:32Speaker 04

  Energy.

• 54:32Billy Corgan?

  So, that's, the shame of it is, is there's really no middle or end to that story for that time. That's what I was trying to say, artfully.

• 54:39Speaker 04

  Yes, yes, no, I agree. I just couldn't get over, I couldn't get past the shock.

• 54:45Billy Corgan?

  So, not to add to the weirdness of it all, but the other memory I have from those times is people really being horrific with you about your appearance.

• 54:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 54:56Billy Corgan?

  You know, bullying, like, I call it bullying, just straight up bullying.

• 54:59Speaker 04

  Straight up bullying.

• 55:01Billy Corgan?

  That must have been really funky, because...

• 55:03Speaker 04

  Oh, it was so hard.

• 55:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I don't, I don't know. It's hard to be empathic in this scenario, we're just talking.

• 55:11Speaker 04

  It is, it is. But it's like, as you can tell, I'm so open about talking about this.

• 55:17Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's part of, you know, if it wasn't part of your story, in the sense that you made it part of your story, I probably wouldn't even bring it up.

• 55:24Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 55:24Billy Corgan?

  But since you did, I'm struck by, you know, you were in this moment in time, you have all this success, and as somebody who was publicly bullied too, I remember having these really conflicting feelings where it's like, I would step outside my door to go play some massive concert, and then I would get that feeling in the pit of my stomach, like, "Yeah, but you're gonna pay..." Do you, you know what I'm talking about?

• 55:46Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 55:47Billy Corgan?

  Like, the good thing is a bad thing.

• 55:49Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 55:49Billy Corgan?

  And it's, at some point, it becomes melded together, where you can't have the good thing without the bad thing. Did you feel that?

• 55:56Speaker 04

  So, I had to accept that people were gonna be dicks.

• 56:02Billy Corgan?

  Can you say that more?

• 56:05Speaker 04

  So, it's...

• 56:06Billy Corgan?

  No, I love it, it's great.

• 56:06Speaker 04

  Everything started off kind of fucked up. We had this executive guy, Arma Anden, who wound up becoming a good friend of mine, actually.

• 56:16Billy Corgan?

  Was he just the messenger or something?

• 56:17Speaker 04

  He was VP of SBK Records, and he came from Columbia Records, and he worked with Charles, and he was also our co-manager. It was so incestuous and so wrong. We had a lawyer, our lawyer was our co-manager, the record company was, it was all total conflict of interest. We got, we didn't know it, we were desperate, we just wanted to have somebody believe in us, and we knew that Charles and the company was, but we didn't know how fucked we were getting, until later. But I remember when they came to one of our recording sessions, very early on, maybe we had recorded half the album, and Arma came in and he said to me...

• 56:59Speaker 04

  What are we gonna do about this weight problem of yours? Verbatim. And I remember running into the bathroom and just sobbing.

• 57:06Billy Corgan?

  Oh my god.

• 57:07Speaker 04

  And feeling so... Like, this isn't right. Like, we're making a record and this is... This is art. And you're talking-

• 57:15Billy Corgan?

  Well, it's also sacred space.

• 57:16Speaker 04

  It's sacred space. And he came in there like an- And I really, I mean, he wound up really apologizing for it, because I said, "Unacceptable." Like, "How, you hurt me so badly when you did that." And he said, "I just can't believe I said that. I am so sorry." And this, and it took years, and I just said, "You know, I really, "You're so funny and so great, and then you [bleep] weren't an [bleep] for saying that to me." "Why did you do that?" You know? It's like you lost control and you just, like, you really chose the wrong words. And, "Were you really afraid "that my fat was gonna make us not successful?"

• 57:53Billy Corgan?

  Well, see, if you'd been skinny, you would've sold 11 million.

• 57:57Speaker 04

  These mother [bleep]. So, um-

• 57:59Billy Corgan?

  But that's how they think.

• 58:00Speaker 04

  That's how they think. And it was always this, like, hide carny in the videos. "My light, I had to stay in this light."

• 58:09Billy Corgan?

  Oh my god, that's so humiliating.

• 58:11Speaker 04

  For my chin. It was, it wasn't good. But, the man who made the videos was such, and is such a dear friend. And he always just said to me, "Give me the eyes," and "You have that spark." And he had to follow direction from the record company. He had to. But, we always had this understanding that I was beautiful too. But it was... I sort of embraced my role. I kind of, I kind of liked it. It was kind of like a power thing. I have to admit.

• 58:42Billy Corgan?

  Can you explain that a little bit?

• 58:44Speaker 04

  I was different. I was different. And you weren't gonna [bleep] with me. Because I had that, and that's part of my, the armor I've had.

• 58:52Billy Corgan?

  So, what strikes me, and I was thinking about this this morning. If, if Wilson Phillips came out today, you get what I'm saying?

• 59:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:01Billy Corgan?

  You would've been embraced in such a different way.

• 59:03Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 59:04Billy Corgan?

  Now, you've had something to do with that, with body positivity stuff, but who you are and what makes you who you are, people would be so different. It must, it must strike you as slightly ironic.

• 59:15Speaker 04

  It's ironic, but I never tapped into that negativity. I don't like negativity. I, I feel like everybody that made fun of me was just unhappy and it was an easy thing to do.

• 59:29Billy Corgan?

  But that generation too was so.

• 59:31Speaker 04

  So, yeah.

• 59:32Billy Corgan?

  Mean.

• 59:32Speaker 04

  So mean. And, but there still are very mean people.

• 59:35Billy Corgan?

  Oh, no, that hasn't ended, but you know, we're, we're Gen X and so.

• 59:39Speaker 04

  Right.

• 59:40Billy Corgan?

  Every generation has its version of, of X, right?

• 59:43Speaker 04

  And we're not, we're not accepting it anymore.

• 59:44Billy Corgan?

  For some reason, our generation was very comfortable with bullying.

• 59:48Speaker 04

  And it, and it, and it's sad because I, I love to lift people up. So my, my whole insides, I could not understand why somebody would just make fun of me. Like focus on the music. What, who cares if I'm heavier than the other two, you know? But when, when the new management came around and we had to, and they wanted to do like sex cells and they wanted to get us in corsets for our first video, You Won't See Me Cry? It was the worst experience ever. I, I was.

• 1:00:24Billy Corgan?

  Take me through it a little bit, we don't have to go too deep in.

• 1:00:25Speaker 04

  I, I just had to wear these corsets that were sucking me in and making, trying to make me look as skinny as possible. I spent like, I don't know, something like $50,000 on corsets. It was insane. And I was, I had pinched, it was bleeding. I had, you know, sores on my waist from cinching and trying to look skinny and it was just awful. And.

• 1:00:48Billy Corgan?

  Sounds like some kind of weird nightmare.

• 1:00:51Speaker 04

  I pulled Jeff aside, we were doing this, you know, shooting the video and it was like, we were in this lingerie and, you know, I, it's like our body parts were coming out of our, our leotards. It was just, and I pulled Jeff aside, you know, the, the producer of the video and I said, we're not shooting a [BLEEP] Playboy video here. Like what happened to the, what happened to? The girls next door, like, you really think this is the way we should be doing this?

• 1:01:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I mean, in a movie, this is where I would turn to the camera instead of say, like, you realize how strange this is? You have three young women.

• 1:01:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:21Billy Corgan?

  In their physical prime.

• 1:01:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:23Billy Corgan?

  They've just sold 10 million albums. And within this space of about 1,000 something days, you're trying to completely change who they are, what they are, and why the public is attracted to them.

• 1:01:35Speaker 04

  I know. And it rubbed me the wrong way.

• 1:01:37Billy Corgan?

  I bet.

• 1:01:38Speaker 04

  But I loved the music. So I was like, at some point.

• 1:01:43Billy Corgan?

  Did you sort of rationalize it?

• 1:01:44Speaker 04

  I did, I did. I also was like, oh, okay, we're still, you know, the puppets. We still have a record deal. We have, we're contractually obligated to make the video and perform and do what they say.

• 1:01:58Billy Corgan?

  You didn't know, I was across town telling everybody to fuck off and say, no.

• 1:02:02Speaker 04

  I love it.

• 1:02:03Billy Corgan?

  I said no to everybody.

• 1:02:04Speaker 04

  Did you?

• 1:02:04Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:05Speaker 04

  Oh, my God. I wish I had the balls to do that. I just, today I would.

• 1:02:09Billy Corgan?

  I look back, I can't believe how crazy I am because I said no to these people. I just looked at them in the eye and said, no.

• 1:02:14Speaker 04

  Oh, my God, that's awesome.

• 1:02:16Billy Corgan?

  And they would threaten me and threaten us, drop us. And I'd say, go ahead. And they just didn't because there was too much money to be made.

• 1:02:23Speaker 04

  It's so sick.

• 1:02:24Billy Corgan?

  It's a sick, sick business.

• 1:02:26Speaker 04

  It's so sick.

• 1:02:27Billy Corgan?

  Do you ever see Day of the Locust?

• 1:02:29Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:02:30Billy Corgan?

  It's a famous book from the 30s, but it was made into a movie in the early 70s. Nathaniel West was the author. But it's about early Hollywood.

• 1:02:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:02:38Billy Corgan?

  And the dark side of exploiting people.

• 1:02:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:02:41Billy Corgan?

  And the characters, there's like a fake Shirley Temple with the stage mom.

• 1:02:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:02:46Billy Corgan?

  And, you know, the wannabe hottie who just is willing to stand in the back just to stay. She's in the movies.

• 1:02:51Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:02:51Billy Corgan?

  But he wrote this book in like 1939 or something.

• 1:02:53Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 1:02:54Billy Corgan?

  But it really gets at the dark underbelly of this town. So what I'm trying to illustrate, and again, turning to the cameras. Here's a perfect example of you're from famous families. You have a very successful record and somebody in an office decides, nope, not good enough.

• 1:03:11Speaker 04

  Right, and that's the thing.

• 1:03:13Billy Corgan?

  Not that this is the price of admission to get in the business.

• 1:03:16Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:03:16Billy Corgan?

  This is the price of admission to stay in the business.

• 1:03:18Speaker 04

  To stay, and it was, we were told, I mean, our record company president said, you're a failure. And when, those were his words, you failed.

• 1:03:27Billy Corgan?

  This is Koppelmann?

• 1:03:28Speaker 04

  Koppelmann. I remember him sitting outside of my house, sitting outside on my lawn chair, and he said, you're a failure. And then he said, well, China, you're gonna do a record, you and Wendy alone then.

• 1:03:40Billy Corgan?

  Is this the Christmas record?

• 1:03:42Speaker 04

  So, this was before the Christmas record. We tried to do some stuff, recorded some demos, and it was good, but then, then the Christmas record, he said, let's just do a Christmas record then.

• 1:03:53Billy Corgan?

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:03:54Speaker 04

  So, I know, but then Wendy and I made a Christmas record that we are very proud of. I love our album.

• 1:04:01Billy Corgan?

  You had the Christmas spirit, so I haven't listened to it, I admit, but...

• 1:04:04Speaker 04

  Oh, it's so good. The harmonies are so good. I remember recording it and we wrote, Hey Santa, that's still playing. It's so much fun. We'll be in concert now, it'll be like July, and they're like, hey, Santa!

• 1:04:18Billy Corgan?

  Gosh, that's so intense, I can't even, it's hard for me to form my thought on it, because I just, I just feel the ick of the whole thing.

• 1:04:24Speaker 04

  Well, it's just...

• 1:04:25Billy Corgan?

  So, how do you, okay, so how do you pick yourself up off the ground?

• 1:04:28Speaker 04

  Well, get a talk show and move to Connecticut, right.

• 1:04:31Billy Corgan?

  Okay, wait, this is my, you got my cue here.

• 1:04:35Speaker 04

  What?

• 1:04:35Billy Corgan?

  Just bear with me.

• 1:04:37Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:04:38Billy Corgan?

  This is your, I think it's incomplete, but this is your life in television.

• 1:04:43Speaker 04

  Oh, right.

• 1:04:44Billy Corgan?

  So, acting, 60's show, 70's show, Speaking of the Teenage Witch, American Dad, Bridesmaids, Glee, talk shows, Carney, The Newlywed Game, Carney Wilson on stage.

• 1:04:59Speaker 04

  Emmy nominated, Emmy nominated for best...

• 1:05:01Billy Corgan?

  God bless. Karaoke battle, celebrity wife swap, Wilson Phillips Still Holding On, a reality show about the band's reunion. I mean, I don't need to read them all.

• 1:05:13Speaker 04

  That's a quarter of it. It's been years.

• 1:05:15Billy Corgan?

  Right, so I'm...

• 1:05:16Speaker 04

  So many things.

• 1:05:19Billy Corgan?

  Was it, was it the Survivor in you that was like, I'm just gonna keep working?

• 1:05:25Speaker 04

  I went on Howard Stern and a woman said... Anybody that can stand up to Howard Stern needs a talk show. And about 22 new talk shows came out that year. I was just one of many.

• 1:05:36Billy Corgan?

  Did they try to turn you into like the gossipy Ricky Lake kind of thing?

• 1:05:40Speaker 04

  They kept saying to me, "We love you because you have an opinion. So, so don't be, ever be afraid to show, you know, to give your opinion." Well, when the wife beaters came on the show and I said, "You're a cocksucker." They were very upset. So, you know, I mean, I, you know, I couldn't hold back.

• 1:05:57Billy Corgan?

  Too much opinion, yeah.

• 1:05:58Speaker 04

  Too much. And then also I had the other nightmare where they said to me, "You're gaining weight. We see it."

• 1:06:03Billy Corgan?

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:06:04Speaker 04

  Second time that happened. So it happened in the music business and it happened in the TV business. And I just, you know, and, um, I mean, you know, and his name was Jim Peratori. He died actually. So, he was riding a bike and had a heart attack in France, I think he died. But he gave me a job, which was very nice. It was telepictures and it was syndicated all over. You know, I was on after Regis and Kathie Lee. So, um, that was fun. I did it for 155 episodes and I loved it. And, uh, it was The Survivor, but it was also like fun. It was adventure.

• 1:06:38Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but I'm, I'm, I'm, the reason I read that list and it obviously includes the present day, but...

• 1:06:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:06:46Billy Corgan?

  Is it, is it like my music career's over or I need to find other stuff to do? I'm trying to understand that moment of pivot.

• 1:06:55Speaker 04

  It's many interests. It's just the, this, yeah, music is on hold and we're not touring.

• 1:07:01Billy Corgan?

  But was that painful to you?

• 1:07:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was because I, every year I would ask China and Wendy, "Are we gonna get back together?" And the answer was no. So, I had to make a living. I, I, I was excited. I mean, I was excited for different opportunities and one thing would lead...

• 1:07:14Billy Corgan?

  Well, why didn't she, okay, couple of questions.

• 1:07:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:07:17Billy Corgan?

  And understand the context of the question. It's not, it's not a, there's no accusation. It's like, uh, okay, okay, so let's just go simply. Why didn't you go solo?

• 1:07:29Speaker 04

  Why did she?

• 1:07:29Billy Corgan?

  No, why didn't you go solo or just do, or just decide to do Wilson Sisters?

• 1:07:35Speaker 04

  Well, we-

• 1:07:36Billy Corgan?

  But I mean, all in, meaning not-

• 1:07:38Speaker 04

  Well, we were still under contract with the record company. We had to deliver more records.

• 1:07:41Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:07:42Speaker 04

  So, we started that-

• 1:07:43Billy Corgan?

  But my sense of it is it's the energy went out of it. Is that fair?

• 1:07:46Speaker 04

  The energy went out of it, but before I got into the television, which was really, that's- It was kind of like, I tend to be OCD with things. I get fixated on-

• 1:08:00Billy Corgan?

  All in?

• 1:08:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:08:01Billy Corgan?

  So you were all in on TV?

• 1:08:02Speaker 04

  I was all in on TV, but I had no goal. I had nothing really in mind. I just kind of went with the flow.

• 1:08:08Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:08:09Speaker 04

  So, one thing would lead to another.

• 1:08:11Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:08:11Speaker 04

  But also, right before I really got into television, I reunited with our dad.

• 1:08:21Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:08:21Speaker 04

  So, that came through music.

• 1:08:23Billy Corgan?

  Was this because of Estrangement and Landy and all that stuff?

• 1:08:25Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:08:25Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:08:25Speaker 04

  So, he was done with Landy. We got him away from Landy. And he recorded a song with Rob Wasserman, the bass player who passed away. And he had done collaborations with different artists. And so, it was two artists and him, Rob. And so, he asked me if I would record a song with my dad. And so, we did a song called "Bells of Madness: Fantasy is Reality." And it was the first time I was in the studio with him as an adult. And he cried the whole time. He walked back and forth and cried the whole time. And I remember singing, and he loved it. And it was great. And that was the beginning of the healing of our relationship. And it was through music. And this doesn't surprise me. And then we sang on a song called "Do It Again", that Dom Was was producing.

• 1:09:09Billy Corgan?

  Is this like a remake of the "Do It Again"?

• 1:09:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was like a remake. But the Wilsons got signed. Wendy and I got signed to Polydor, whatever it was called. Polygram or whatever.

• 1:09:21Billy Corgan?

  Polygram, yeah.

• 1:09:22Speaker 04

  Polygram. And we knew that we wanted to- So, this is where you come in.

• 1:09:27Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:09:29Speaker 04

  This is so fucking cool!

• 1:09:31Billy Corgan?

  All right. Try not to be nervous.

• 1:09:33Speaker 04

  So cool. You're so cute. Okay, wait. So, the co-writer of "Impulsive", Cliff Magnus-

• 1:09:42Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:09:43Speaker 04

  Loves you. Loves Smashing Pumpkins.

• 1:09:48Speaker 04

  And he, so, he was like, Wendy and I said, we have to collaborate with different writers. And we made that Christmas record, and now we were gonna go for the pop record.

• 1:09:58Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:09:59Speaker 04

  And they were very excited and very behind it. We met with a lot of writers, wrote a lot of songs. And we started compiling these songs, and we get with Cliff. And he says, "I think you guys need to really bust out of this like good girl image you've got to bring." Now, he's a guitar, he's a guitar man.

• 1:10:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:19Speaker 04

  So, he was playing today, and 1979.

• 1:10:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:26Speaker 04

  And he played it for us, and he was like, "Just listen to the way he sings and how the guitars are heavy, but they're not too loud, but they're crunchy and delicious. But listen to how, listen to the way, the effects on his vocals and the way he sings, and the melodies, just [bleep] listen to this." And we, we would play it, and then go right into the writing session.

• 1:10:53Billy Corgan?

  That's so funny.

• 1:10:54Speaker 04

  So, we, so-

• 1:10:55Billy Corgan?

  See, I'm not getting shy.

• 1:10:56Speaker 04

  No, you're so cute, but, so the result of that, there were two songs. One song was called "I Hate Your Face."

• 1:11:05Billy Corgan?

  Perfect.

• 1:11:06Speaker 04

  No, "I Hate Your Face," we were like, "We don't care what anybody thinks, we're gonna [bleep] go for this." And Cliff was such, he's a great guitar player, and he loves guitar. We were like, "We are gonna go for it." This record came out, and it was a collaboration with our father.

• 1:11:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:11:23Speaker 04

  And so, we did some songs with Dave Stewart from The Eurythmics, and wrote a song with him, two songs with him, and our dad was a part of it. So, it was like this, it was called "The Wilsons," and it was really Wendy and I, but it was also our father. But, but we did four songs with Cliff, I think it was four, maybe five. And, um- And "I Hate Your Face" was really [bleep] cool. And I am so proud of this record. And it never saw the light of day.

• 1:11:50Billy Corgan?

  It never came out?

• 1:11:52Speaker 04

  It came out, but it just, it just...

• 1:11:54Billy Corgan?

  One of those, yeah.

• 1:11:55Speaker 04

  One of those. We went onstage and did this song. I was determined to like, show people that we could like, rock out a little bit. And so, I was literally like, you know, we would be like, "You're in love." And then I'd be like, "I hate your face."

• 1:12:09Billy Corgan?

  That's a cool idea. See, when you say the title, I didn't expect that, but it's cool.

• 1:12:12Speaker 04

  So it's about past lives. Like, "I hate your face because I love your face."

• 1:12:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:16Speaker 04

  And I've been here before with you. But anyway, we were very influenced by you with these songs, with three or four of these songs on the record. But it never saw the light, and it's some of my favorite stuff we've ever done.

• 1:12:29Billy Corgan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:12:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:12:32Billy Corgan?

  It was interesting times, right? That you could have music like that be popular.

• 1:12:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:12:36Billy Corgan?

  It's very rare.

• 1:12:37Speaker 04

  I know.

• 1:12:38Billy Corgan?

  When we had, actually, going back to your world. When we had success in the 90s, and people were sort of shocked by it. Because, you know, we were all these weirdos that had climbed above us sewers, you know?

• 1:12:51Billy Corgan?

  I said, "Well, it's just the 60s all over again."

• 1:12:53Speaker 04

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:12:54Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean? Music gets so stale.

• 1:12:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:12:56Billy Corgan?

  That kids are just like, "Show me something." And then, all of a sudden, you've got all these artists that are just like, "Get out of the way. We're so sick of your, you know, whatever."

• 1:13:05Speaker 04

  Whatever.

• 1:13:06Billy Corgan?

  Your snoozy, prepackaged pop. You know, we need something that feels more like what we're experiencing.

• 1:13:13Speaker 04

  I think you're in like, a category of your own, to be honest. There's...

• 1:13:19Billy Corgan?

  Well, I was very inspired by the 60s bands. That was always my thing. I looked at that, like, I would look at your, you know, your family's world, and the Beatles' world, and Zeppelin, and I'd say,

• 1:13:28Speaker 04

  Loves Zeppelin.

• 1:13:29Billy Corgan?

  "Why can't we, why can't we just be that? Why can't we just do our own, our own thing? Just, why can't we just make our own world? Like, why do we have to be like anybody else?"

• 1:13:37Speaker 04

  No, I know. But your voice also has a sound. It has a certain sound to it.

• 1:13:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:42Speaker 04

  It's your own unique sound. It's you.

• 1:13:43Billy Corgan?

  That's a, that's a whole, that's a different podcast, you see.

• 1:13:46Speaker 04

  That's okay, I'm allowed to say that. You can take a compliment.

• 1:13:48Billy Corgan?

  You can say whatever you like, thank you.

• 1:13:52Billy Corgan?

  I'm curious, because we haven't talked about, you know, obviously, we talked a bit about your dad, but like, how were your, you know, your, your uncles and stuff with your success? And how were, were they supportive?

• 1:14:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, they really were. But not Dennis, because Dennis died before. Dennis died when I was 15. So, um, he was always like this mysterious sexy man. And he was my uncle, but like, I get butterflies around him. He was very handsome. And, um...

• 1:14:20Billy Corgan?

  Obviously, a sensitive guy, too, you know?

• 1:14:22Speaker 04

  He's very sensitive.

• 1:14:22Billy Corgan?

  That one, that one record, is it Pacific?

• 1:14:25Speaker 04

  Pacific Blue, Ocean Blue.

• 1:14:26Billy Corgan?

  What a beautiful...

• 1:14:27Speaker 04

  Beautiful album, god damn it.

• 1:14:29Billy Corgan?

  There's so much talent in your family, it's kind of frightening.

• 1:14:32Speaker 04

  Well, thank you, but, yes, and they all three had big, big talent. Carl was an amazing writer, amazing singer. I have God Only Knows on my...

• 1:14:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that vocal...

• 1:14:44Speaker 04

  Oh, god, it's just...

• 1:14:45Billy Corgan?

  That's one of the greatest vocals of all time.

• 1:14:47Speaker 04

  I agree with you.

• 1:14:47Billy Corgan?

  You listen to that vocal, and it's just like, where does that come from?

• 1:14:51Speaker 04

  Stunning. He, he really had such a great sound.

• 1:14:55Billy Corgan?

  Some people have a purity in their voice?

• 1:14:56Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:14:57Billy Corgan?

  I don't mean a moral purity.

• 1:14:59Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:14:59Billy Corgan?

  There's a certain...

• 1:15:00Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:15:01Billy Corgan?

  Straight, but it's so effective.

• 1:15:04Speaker 04

  That was him.

• 1:15:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:07Speaker 04

  And, um, yeah, he, he was, he was, he was protective. Carl was more protective. Dad just wasn't, we just weren't spending time with him, so... He, oh, but then, when he said to us, "I followed you on the charts every week." So, he was, you know, watching us through his, behind his, his door. But Carl was like, "You guys just have to keep going, and Wendy, you need to do country record." He was convinced that Wendy needed to do country. Because she had like a twang in her voice.

• 1:15:38Billy Corgan?

  But if you look at where country is now, he wasn't that far off.

• 1:15:41Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:15:42Billy Corgan?

  Country's never been bigger. Back then, it wasn't like it is now.

• 1:15:46Speaker 04

  Well, um, we asked Carl to sing on, well, we asked Dad to sing on Hey Santa, and he said no. So, that was probably just because he was, you know, someone told him, "No, you can't do it." But Carl came and sang "Backgrounds," and I remember him singing on it, and he sounded great. But, um, I miss him very much. I, I think about him all the time, and I have pictures around my house, and I feel his spirit a lot. And my dad really misses his brothers. Like a lot.

• 1:16:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's intense because if you look at rock history, like the Davies Brothers, there's an intensity when they're in the same group.

• 1:16:23Speaker 04

  I know.

• 1:16:24Billy Corgan?

  I think it's hard for, I didn't have that, so you know, I tried to beg my brother to be into music, he wasn't.

• 1:16:30Speaker 04

  He wasn't into it?

• 1:16:30Billy Corgan?

  I'll tell you a quick funny story, so my, you know, like you were saying, my voice has this quality, right?

• 1:16:36Speaker 04

  Sound.

• 1:16:37Billy Corgan?

  And we got it, my father actually sang higher than me, but didn't have the cut in the voice, that came from my mother, but my mother didn't sing. So my brother had no interest in music, didn't want to play, he's more of a take stuff apart type of guy, and now he's an artist. And I was driving in the car with him one day, and he was listening to a song, and he forgot I was in the car, and he started singing along, and it was that voice, and I'd never in a million years thought.

• 1:17:06Speaker 04

  Interesting.

• 1:17:07Billy Corgan?

  Because he's got the same genetics, duh. So it was the only time, and I begged my brother, I was like, please sing on a record with me, and he was like, no.

• 1:17:15Speaker 04

  Aw.

• 1:17:16Billy Corgan?

  And he's got the same weird, whatever that voice is, but I heard it outside my body for the first time in my life, I was like.

• 1:17:23Speaker 04

  What a trip.

• 1:17:24Billy Corgan?

  And it was, you know, as you know, like, because of siblings, it's the same, but kind of different.

• 1:17:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, the tones.

• 1:17:30Billy Corgan?

  Tone?

• 1:17:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:17:31Billy Corgan?

  So I was like.

• 1:17:32Speaker 04

  Totally.

• 1:17:32Billy Corgan?

  I mean, I begged him, please just sing on a record, I'll make it easy for you, sing one note.

• 1:17:37Speaker 04

  But that's like my daughter Lucy, Lola's totally into music, and Lucy is too, but she won't do it, she's not a performer, they don't, they don't want to perform, they're too embarrassed or something.

• 1:17:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah, he doesn't have that, he doesn't have that narcissistic need for constant attention.

• 1:17:54Speaker 04

  There's definitely that, I just really believe that is, of course.

• 1:17:58Billy Corgan?

  Just look at me, please, more.

• 1:18:03Billy Corgan?

  So, I cannot find your 2003 soul album, which was called For the First Time?

• 1:18:09Speaker 04

  It never came out.

• 1:18:10Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:18:10Speaker 04

  That's why.

• 1:18:11Billy Corgan?

  Okay. I'm like, you know, I'm Googling away, and I'm like, where's this record?

• 1:18:16Speaker 04

  Had a baby, and then.

• 1:18:18Billy Corgan?

  So it's just sitting there unreleased?

• 1:18:20Speaker 04

  There is no, there was never a full recorded album, I did, I recorded a couple Diane Warren songs, and then we just stopped the project.

• 1:18:26Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay, so that's what, yeah, that's the problem with the internet, is like, you can't quite get to the bottom of certain news, but.

• 1:18:32Speaker 04

  I recorded a lullaby album.

• 1:18:34Billy Corgan?

  That I heard, yeah.

• 1:18:35Speaker 04

  That is a beautiful record, and I sang You Are So Beautiful with my dad, and that's one of the prettiest recordings we've ever done.

• 1:18:40Billy Corgan?

  So. I'm not trying to belabor the point about body stuff, but you know,

• 1:18:48Billy Corgan?

  being in the public eye and having this relationship and then even kind of being very public about your struggles with it. And I read somewhere about, because you did say about being alcoholic, sobriety and can you kind of just, and I guess what I'm asking is a very general question, but you tackle it how you want. Husband, family, sobriety, self-acceptance, self-love, can you kind of walk me through that?

• 1:19:11Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:19:11Billy Corgan?

  Because, sorry, here's the real context.

• 1:19:16Billy Corgan?

  Anybody who struggles with life, which is pretty much every person.

• 1:19:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:19:19Billy Corgan?

  Right? But once you're in the public side of the equation, it adds this other dynamic that makes that even more complicated. So I'm kind of curious how you navigated that.

• 1:19:29Speaker 04

  First of all, no matter what I've been through, no matter what phase or what was happening, I've always let the public in because I feel like scared to hide things.

• 1:19:40Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's interesting.

• 1:19:41Speaker 04

  I don't know why. I think it's, I think it's ultimately that I have to connect with people. It's really important for me to feel like-

• 1:19:50Billy Corgan?

  Even though you know there's sort of a vulnerability in that?

• 1:19:53Speaker 04

  Yes, I think vulnerability is the most courageous thing we can ever feel or do. Or, I mean, to me, vulnerability is courage. Because you are open, exposed, and like, that takes courage to just be like, I feel weak, or I feel sad, or I feel, you know. And I've always had kind of a low chronic depression and I've never, I've never hidden that. And-

• 1:20:19Billy Corgan?

  But you think that's genetic, or is that environmental?

• 1:20:22Speaker 04

  Both.

• 1:20:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:20:23Speaker 04

  I think it's both.

• 1:20:24Billy Corgan?

  Where's the, what's the environmental trigger in your mind?

• 1:20:27Speaker 04

  Probably just like, what do people think of me?

• 1:20:32Speaker 04

  And, and then ultimately going, well, really, do I give a [bleep] what someone thinks of me? Like, you think I'm-

• 1:20:38Billy Corgan?

  But that's a yes and no question, answer, right? That's always that weird thing.

• 1:20:41Speaker 04

  It is. But-

• 1:20:45Speaker 04

  I was always a pothead and then I stopped smoking and I met my husband when I was at my heaviest weight and I was becoming, I was gonna die for sure. I mean, I was really, really. I got Bell's palsy. I had my first acting role in a, you know, a television series called The Sixties and I played Mama Earth, a real character that was like in The Haight-Ashbury, you know?

• 1:21:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:07Speaker 04

  And it was really fun. Then I got Bell's palsy when the premiere came out and I walked on the red carpet like, like, one eye open, you know, and I remember that. But I was at, I believe that I got Bell's palsy and it really stopped me in my tracks and said, like, literally, freeze. Like, half my face froze and I was like, God going, freeze, Carney. Take this snapshot here. You're going, you're gonna die. So you have to do something.

• 1:21:32Billy Corgan?

  From, from?

• 1:21:33Speaker 04

  From being overweight.

• 1:21:34Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:21:34Speaker 04

  And I had sleep apnea and I couldn't breathe at night and my blood pressure was up and I was...

• 1:21:39Billy Corgan?

  Was it, was it, you know, whatever. It's not that important, but is, was it overeating? Or I'm saying, where were you?

• 1:21:47Speaker 04

  Oh, always overeating.

• 1:21:48Billy Corgan?

  What was your response?

• 1:21:48Speaker 04

  Always overeating.

• 1:21:49Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:21:49Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. Just, just completely broken up with the boyfriend. Like, you know, I was working at a needlepoint store. I was, I didn't know what I was gonna do about money. I was very depressed. I had gotten Bell's palsy. I had one acting role, you know, and I, and then Beach Boy Al Jardine asked if we would go do some shows with him, with his sons and Matthew and Adam. And we had this great sound together and then we started performing and I met Rob on the road when I was with Al. It was at a thing called Vet

• 1:22:28Speaker 04

  Rock in Pennsylvania at a naval base and I see this guy walk across the tent, food tent, you know, and he's like really cute. And then his friend that brought him was interviewing Rob after he was writing a book and he said, "This is my friend Rob." And Rob goes, "Hi, it's nice to meet you and I used to watch your talk show and I really enjoyed watching you." And I said, "Thank you," you know. But I remember that day, I was, I was very, I was 310 pounds. But I was like, "I'm going on stage and I don't care how I look, I'm just gonna go and have a really good time." And I put little butterfly clips in my hair and I put extra perfume on, don't ask me why. And I met Rob that day. And then I have pictures of him, someone took pictures of him in the front row, watching

• 1:23:12Speaker 04

  me on stage and there were these amazing pictures, mouth is open, he was like, you know, couldn't believe it. And I, and he just dug the vibe. And then I got home and it was before we had any kind, it was just message boards, you know, the, it just, the internet just started happening. And I got, "Rob Bonfilio, Wilson Phillips message board. Rob Bonfilio says hi to you." And I was like, "Who is this guy?" He's like, "I met you backstage and you were so sweet and I love your butterfly clips and you smelled really good." And I wrote him back, I'm like, "Are you single?" And that was it.

• 1:23:45Billy Corgan?

  You just got right to the point.

• 1:23:46Speaker 04

  I went right to the point, I'm like, "Are you single?" He said, "Yeah." And he wasn't actually, he lied to me, which was [BLEEP] up, because he was like in a major, he was gonna move to [BLEEP] Madrid, because he had a love, you know. And then she called his house when I was there, he was in the shower, they were, they were gonna get engaged. And we had just gotten engaged and I said, "Guess what? Don't ever call back again because he's mine. Bye." Her name was Virginia, I called her Virginia. I was mad at her. But anyway.

• 1:24:14Billy Corgan?

  This was not on my dance card.

• 1:24:16Speaker 04

  I know, I know, I really like went crazy. But anyway, Rob, Rob, like, we connected right away and he was, he was in a band called Wanderlust and he's great guitar player, great songwriter. Just connected right off the bat, like soulmate, hands down, like two magnets, absolutely.

• 1:24:33Billy Corgan?

  And you've been together how long?

• 1:24:34Speaker 04

  Never wanted to be apart, 25 years. And we fight all the time and we get on each other's nerves, but, you know, we, we are there for each other and that's, and we trust each other and we have two wonderful children.

• 1:24:46Billy Corgan?

  So, healing, as you know, is not a, you figure out one thing and then you're healed. I always say it's a three-dimensional process. You fix one thing and then you have to repair this other relationship.

• 1:24:56Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 1:24:56Billy Corgan?

  It's always, yeah. So kinda where are you at in that arc now?

• 1:25:02Speaker 04

  I would say that, you know, when I did, when we did get together, it was five years had passed and I had like, lost a couple of jobs, you know, I did some talk show hosting and, and I was very just behind with taxes and money was not good. And I started drinking. And after I lost a bunch of weight, I had the gastric bypass surgery. I said to Rob, I'm gonna get this surgery. It was right when I met him. And he goes, well, is it safe? And I said, yeah, it is. And he goes, we'll do it. I'll be there for you. And I became another person and I wasn't, I wasn't used to being skinny. I got down to like a size four and I went from like a size 28 to a four.

• 1:25:43Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 1:25:44Speaker 04

  And I was, I didn't recognize myself at all.

• 1:25:47Billy Corgan?

  How'd you feel when you were there? Did you feel better, worse?

• 1:25:50Speaker 04

  I physically felt so much better and I could do so many things and it was great and wonderful. But it was absolutely terrifying. And I remember just like crying on his chest and I go, I don't know who I am. I don't know who I am. I don't, when I look in the mirror, I don't understand who I'm seeing. It was really trippy. And I just, I had a little therapy with a therapist. He said, you gotta, you have to literally grieve the old body. And I tried.

• 1:26:16Billy Corgan?

  That's interesting.

• 1:26:17Speaker 04

  Yeah. He said, you have to say goodbye to the old body.

• 1:26:20Billy Corgan?

  Is, is, is this a, I mean, I'm asking you a psychological question, but is it, is it an attachment to something?

• 1:26:26Speaker 04

  Yes, it's an attachment to my, my identity. It was my identity.

• 1:26:30Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:26:31Speaker 04

  So like, I couldn't.

• 1:26:33Billy Corgan?

  Cause there, there are some schools of thought, and I've only read these things, this is not an opinion, that sometimes people who put on a lot of weight, they almost want this physical distance.

• 1:26:43Speaker 04

  Barrier, yeah.

• 1:26:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:45Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:26:45Billy Corgan?

  That's, I don't, I can't say I understand it, but you know.

• 1:26:49Speaker 04

  I always looked at it like strength. I know that sounds weird, but like,

• 1:26:54Speaker 04

  like, I'm not gonna get raped because a guy's not gonna find a fat girl attractive. Or I'm not gonna, no one's gonna hurt me or come close to me. I didn't want attention from guys. I was scared to get attention from guys.

• 1:27:07Billy Corgan?

  So, kids, marriage, life.

• 1:27:11Speaker 04

  So, didn't know if I wanted to have children. I was just really drinking a lot. And I said to Rob, I want a baby. I want, I mean, I'm thirty-seven, thirty-six. He goes, you're not in any shape to have kids. And that really hurt me. And I felt...

• 1:27:27Billy Corgan?

  But was because it was true?

• 1:27:28Speaker 04

  Because it was true.

• 1:27:29Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:27:29Speaker 04

  And I spent a year asking everybody if they thought I was an alcoholic. So, they were like, well, we don't see you drink that much. Well, because I was hanging out in my closet.

• 1:27:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:38Speaker 04

  Yeah. So, anyway, I got sober, uh, 12-step, and I'm still in it. And it's the greatest thing that ever happened to me.

• 1:27:46Speaker 04

  And Rob was there, he's been there through everything. And then I got pregnant two weeks after I got sober. And, you know, Lola was our first gift. And, um, you know, just moved, we've moved a few times. We've moved like four times since Lola was born. And it's hard because we're just like, in and out of like, making money, not making money, enough money and not enough money. So, um, I lost my home. And then we were renting, and now we just bought another house. But, like, it was just twenty years of no drinking. I've really grown up. Sobriety has taught me how to settle into my own skin and just, just being a woman and knowing what I want, what I don't want.

• 1:28:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:31Speaker 04

  And what brings me peace. And I live for my children, you know? We've been sharing music together since they were born. So, that's a whole other thing that's been happening. Um, being able to sing with my kids is, I thought it was great singing with Wendy in China. Oh, my God. We have the best sound.

• 1:28:50Billy Corgan?

  Do you harmonize?

• 1:28:51Speaker 04

  Yes. I was like a, like a trainer, like a Navy SEAL.

• 1:28:57Billy Corgan?

  Drill sergeant.

• 1:28:57Speaker 04

  Like a drill sergeant. You're flat, don't do it again. But let me tell you.

• 1:29:02Billy Corgan?

  So, I think this is a good way to finish. So, I've known different people. Because you know, when your father was living outside of Chicago.

• 1:29:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:29:12Billy Corgan?

  I knew Joe Thomas a little bit. Who helped kind of get your father going again musically. And then some other people from Chicago I knew. And so, you know, as you do in this business, you know, when you meet different people, you're like, you know. It was, I was less interested in, in, in, you know, let's call it the constant chatter about your father's mental health, which is obviously, I'm not making light of it. I'm saying is, that's been the number one topic of conversation with your father. I'm ultimately more interested in your father's musical ability.

• 1:29:43Speaker 04

  Me too.

• 1:29:45Billy Corgan?

  And, you know, I've seen him play live in those years with, was it The Wanderments? And that whole thing where they were doing pet sounds.

• 1:29:54Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:29:54Billy Corgan?

  I saw one, even one beautiful night where there was like a UCLA or something.

• 1:29:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, I remember that.

• 1:30:00Billy Corgan?

  I was there and Al Jardine came on, played. It was just beautiful to hear that music live.

• 1:30:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:05Billy Corgan?

  And of course, your father varying degrees of participation, but whatever. He wrote it.

• 1:30:08Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 1:30:09Billy Corgan?

  Who cares if he's in the front row? He's there and it's a beautiful night. But I think the cool thing that I remember hearing, and I got to tell you one little story, the one time I met your father.

• 1:30:22Billy Corgan?

  So, I said to somebody, like, you know, kind of like, let's call it the, how with it is your, was your dad in this scenario? And they said, well, we, you know, we would rehearse up all this material with all those complex harmonies. And, you know, you'd see him, he'd be kind of staring off into space and thinking, oh, he's just not really here. And then somebody would hit a bum note and he would go like.

• 1:30:50Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:30:51Billy Corgan?

  And he'd go, no, it goes like.

• 1:30:55Billy Corgan?

  And they're like.

• 1:30:56Speaker 04

  What the?

• 1:30:57Billy Corgan?

  Holy sh.

• 1:30:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:30:59Billy Corgan?

  They said, his understanding of polyphony is frightening. And until you're in it with him and you see it in action, you're like, holy cow.

• 1:31:08Speaker 04

  It is so remarkable. And as his daughter, I trip out a lot. And I'm so like.

• 1:31:20Speaker 04

  Proud of him for being the survivor he is. And the contribution to music, ugh, I don't want to cry, but like his contribution is so beautiful. And the layers of all his music is so beautiful. And the thing that I, what I want people to understand is that he is so grateful. He is so grateful to the people that love his music and the lives that he's touched. And he's aware of all of it. And he's also more aware of, of everything and people don't realize that.

• 1:31:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:52Speaker 04

  He's run by fear.

• 1:31:53Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 1:31:54Speaker 04

  Hands down, a hundred percent.

• 1:31:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:55Speaker 04

  And a hundred percent of the time, too. He is run by fear and it's so funny because so am I. So I see a lot of similarities with us and that's why we relate to each other so well.

• 1:32:08Billy Corgan?

  This is why you need to write your own songs.

• 1:32:10Speaker 04

  I know.

• 1:32:11Billy Corgan?

  I'm telling you, I'm coming over.

• 1:32:12Speaker 04

  I need to, I need to tap into this.

• 1:32:14Billy Corgan?

  And I'm just gonna be quiet and listen.

• 1:32:15Speaker 04

  I just listen. Well, the good news is, you know, I see him around three times a month and we love to talk about music. So I'll, I'll just like play him a random song, you know, I'm like, baby, come back. And he's listening.

• 1:32:31Billy Corgan?

  Player.

• 1:32:32Speaker 04

  He's player, player. He's like, I like that one, you know, and then we'll listen to Chicago or we'll listen to, you know. But I was singing your song, which is my favorite Elton John song and he really likes that song. But the good news is, you know, I, I can say that today, it's like, it doesn't matter what has happened in the past. I am so into where are your feet right now? Where are you right now? And if I keep thinking about that past stuff, because he's haunted by his past. So, but it's so strange because.

• 1:33:09Billy Corgan?

  But can you, can you define that at least a little bit? I'm not looking for gossip, I'm just.

• 1:33:12Speaker 04

  I've never known anybody that can live in the past and be in the future, be in the present like my dad. It is the weirdest thing I've ever seen. He is a remarkable person. He's got so much that he wishes he could take back. And I know that he has regrets. But I think that his childlike quality and his love for just food and.

• 1:33:43Speaker 04

  I know he loves his children and his grandchildren, but he has a problem expressing love. It's hard for him. It scares him.

• 1:33:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:53Speaker 04

  It scares him to show that love. I don't know if he's scared to be vulnerable like that.

• 1:33:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:58Speaker 04

  But I have been able to connect and tap into love with him over these years, and it's been the most healing, best thing ever.

• 1:34:10Speaker 04

  But the amount of acceptance that I've had to have around like what I'm going to be able to receive from him.

• 1:34:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:18Speaker 04

  Is my biggest life's lesson.

• 1:34:21Billy Corgan?

  I get that. Yeah, it strikes me, you know, every every person has a mythology, you know? And to me, this is my version. I didn't live it, but it's like he's the he's the Promethean myth. He tapped in so early to such huge elemental forces. I mean, he didn't just tap into the zeitgeist of like surf and where music was going in the 60s. He literally tapped into the American songbook.

• 1:34:49Speaker 04

  I know.

• 1:34:50Billy Corgan?

  The wider American story. And even he went for these crazy things. You know, the West. I can never think of that song where it's like kind of a Western.

• 1:34:57Speaker 04

  Rio Grande.

• 1:34:58Billy Corgan?

  No, it's the it's after Pet Sounds. It's it's got like Barrel House Piano and something he wrote with Van Dyke.

• 1:35:05Speaker 04

  Oh, Orange Crater.

• 1:35:07Billy Corgan?

  Heroes or.

• 1:35:09Speaker 04

  Oh, Heroes and Villains.

• 1:35:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:10Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:35:11Billy Corgan?

  You know, it's like he's like trying to he's trying to do John Wayne movies.

• 1:35:14Speaker 04

  So cool.

• 1:35:14Billy Corgan?

  It's like so like, what is happening?

• 1:35:16Speaker 04

  So cool.

• 1:35:16Billy Corgan?

  So, again, this is my projection, but when you tap into those elemental forces and you in your own way have tapped into them, when they invert and they invert at some point on everybody, Frank Sinatra on down, Elvis.

• 1:35:31Speaker 04

  I love Frank.

• 1:35:31Billy Corgan?

  But it but they those same forces run you over.

• 1:35:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:35:35Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:35:36Speaker 04

  Well, people don't know how to deal with it.

• 1:35:37Billy Corgan?

  Well, by the way, there's no manual. There's no there's no website.

• 1:35:41Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:35:41Billy Corgan?

  Here's what you do when your career goes the wrong way.

• 1:35:43Speaker 04

  Right. I think my dad is afraid of his own. He doesn't know where it came from. Because I asked him one time. "How did you write 'God Only Knows', "or 'How did you write these melodies', "or 'How did you write this song'?" He said, "I didn't write it. God did." So, he's extremely spiritual. And I don't know what God it is, "but it's his own God." And, you know, I feel like there is a weird, like, and I don't know how to say it right. With artists, there's just something that we we can try to touch, but we can't touch. Because it's so individual.

• 1:36:26Speaker 04

  You know, it's like, it came from inside someone. And, you know what I mean?

• 1:36:30Billy Corgan?

  But I subscribe-

• 1:36:31Speaker 04

  What am I trying to say?

• 1:36:32Billy Corgan?

  Well, I subscribe to the idea that artists are like prisms. I'm a spiritual person, so I believe that it does come from another place. And we just become the light refracted.

• 1:36:45Speaker 04

  That's it.

• 1:36:46Billy Corgan?

  And if it truly came from within us, then why can't we do it again and again and again? You know what I'm saying?

• 1:36:53Speaker 04

  We can. It's our own-

• 1:36:56Billy Corgan?

  Right, but what I'm saying is there's a celestial component to certain mythological narratives. Because, you know, in your father's case, why was there this concentrated energy between 1962 and 1973? And all this music? You know what I mean? And the elemental forces that sort of seemed to push him towards certain chasms that are, you know, obviously he had a hard time with. But again, I wasn't there. You know, I've only read the books, you know?

• 1:37:30Speaker 04

  Right. I mean, my mom is someone that was there. You know, she-

• 1:37:35Billy Corgan?

  You know what? I'm glad you brought that up, because I had written a note about your mother, because, you know, there's that story behind "Every great man is a great woman", which doesn't really work in the modern vernacular. But the idea is that there must have been something about your mother in that dynamic that was very powerful.

• 1:37:52Speaker 04

  He still loves her so much and she loves him so much. And at the new, the Beach Boys new movie on Disney, the premiere, he was in his wheelchair because he's had two really shit back surgeries. And my mom said, "Please take me to him. I want to say hi." And so, I mean, it was so cute. She walked up to him and she couldn't say anything else. She just said, "I love you, Brian." "Mary, I love you. I love you." They just said, "I love you." So cool, you know, and that was really great for me to see.

• 1:38:23Billy Corgan?

  See, when you listen to a love song, he was singing about her, you see?

• 1:38:28Speaker 04

  No question.

• 1:38:28Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so we owe her that too.

• 1:38:31Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, we do. Oh, we owe her, oh, she, he would be, he would not be here if it wasn't for her.

• 1:38:36Billy Corgan?

  I feel that, sitting with you, right? That level of like.

• 1:38:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:38:40Billy Corgan?

  That's humbling.

• 1:38:41Speaker 04

  This gratitude.

• 1:38:42Billy Corgan?

  See, when you write "God Only Knows," I mean, who's he singing about?

• 1:38:46Speaker 04

  Who's he singing about? And my mother, yes. And you know, there's this thing with like the new wife, the old wife, you know, and this, you know, and it's like.

• 1:38:56Billy Corgan?

  I've heard all the stories, trust me, especially in Chicago.

• 1:38:58Speaker 04

  Right, but Melinda did help him get back out there and in his life. And I'm always being debt to her for that. But it's like, my mother was the one that kept him alive.

• 1:39:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:10Speaker 04

  You know, so it's interesting. He will always be grateful to her. And she will be grateful, and she'll always love him. I mean, it's her first love.

• 1:39:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:21Speaker 04

  And that, that's a comforting thing, you know, because they're divorced and it's.

• 1:39:23Billy Corgan?

  Who wants to think that their parents didn't love each other?

• 1:39:25Speaker 04

  Right, and you know, I mean, I'm very fortunate that that's the case. But yeah, he's, he's a complex man and, but we all are in our own way. But I'm, I'm just grateful that I get to, yeah, to, to be with him again.

• 1:39:40Billy Corgan?

  So my last little story. So I went to see your father play in Chicago one night and, God, it would have been like 20 something years ago.

• 1:39:47Speaker 04

  Did he start coughing in the middle of a song?

• 1:39:50Billy Corgan?

  No, I don't remember that. I just remember I went to the show and then, maybe because of Joe Thomas or something, I, somebody said, you know, "If you come backstage, I can probably introduce you" or something. And I just got the feeling like, maybe it's not a good thing, you know? And they're like, no, no, come on, come in, come in, let me introduce you. So the guy brings me in and your dad was sitting on a couch, he looked up and he said, you know, oh, this is Billy. He looks at me and goes, what do you do?

• 1:40:17Speaker 04

  God in heaven.

• 1:40:18Billy Corgan?

  And I didn't know what to say. Because I thought, well, if I tell him I'm a musician.

• 1:40:23Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:40:24Billy Corgan?

  He's just gonna think, yeah, so is everybody a musician. I wanted him to kind of know who I was, but I didn't make a big display of it. So I think, I don't know what I said, I said something very simple and he was nice and we took a picture together and he later signed it for me and all that, so it was all good. But what is weird is the reason it's a bad memory is because I came out of the room and there was a Time magazine reporter who for some reason was around. And he identified himself and he said, can I quote that exchange? And I said, no, because that's a private moment between me and Brian.

• 1:41:00Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 1:41:01Billy Corgan?

  And, and, and I said, plus, you know, it was awkward because I didn't know how to answer the question, but, but, and I told the guy, look, whatever I said, I said, I wasn't trying to be egoistic, it's somebody I really respect and I was trying to find the right words.

• 1:41:19Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:41:20Billy Corgan?

  And he put it in the magazine and made me look really bad. Like, like I was offended that your dad didn't know who I was and how.

• 1:41:29Speaker 04

  Oh, just horrible. Oh, they're the worst, reporters are the worst. Just, mother, hers is right. Wait, really fast, I know we're wrapping it up. One of the funniest stories.

• 1:41:42Billy Corgan?

  You're controlling my interview.

• 1:41:43Speaker 04

  I'm sorry, wait, I have to taste it right now. No, I'm not, I'm getting ready. This is gonna make you laugh, because it reminded me of this. Only my dad would do this. Don Henley released his book Walden Woods, whatever. And my dad had a book, I forgot what it was called. Wouldn't It Be Nice, or whatever. One of the books that he didn't, that he didn't write. He was releasing it, and there was, there was like a release party or autograph signing. Autograph signing. And Don said, "I really want to meet Brian." So he went up, brought a picture, oh no, brought a book, and said, "Brian, would you sign this for me?" This is Don Henley. And so he said, "Sure, Don." So he, he wrote to Don, "The Eagles are a great group. Love Brian Wilson." And so Don said, "Thank you, Brian," and walked away, you know.

• 1:42:27Speaker 04

  And he goes, "Don, come back here. Come back here. Let me have that, let me have that, that book." Crossed out the word "great" and wrote "good." And then he said to him, and Don said, "Why did you do that, Brian?" He said, "Because the Beatles are great. The Eagles are good."

• 1:42:51Speaker 04

  Poor Don! And I, and the funny part is that, I know I'm gonna get killed for saying this. I love the Eagles more than the Beatles. That's just me, but...

• 1:43:01Billy Corgan?

  You're safe here in Southern California.

• 1:43:02Speaker 04

  I'm safe in Southern.

• 1:43:03Billy Corgan?

  But outside the...

• 1:43:04Speaker 04

  I'll be literally killed.

• 1:43:05Billy Corgan?

  You're gonna have a hard time.

• 1:43:07Speaker 04

  But how funny is he that he did that? Crossed out "great."

• 1:43:11Billy Corgan?

  Well, he did, he did.

• 1:43:13Speaker 04

  He's so...

• 1:43:14Billy Corgan?

  Compose in a sandbox and...

• 1:43:15Speaker 04

  I know, I know.

• 1:43:16Billy Corgan?

  We know all the stories, but I'm saying...

• 1:43:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, my mother opened the door and they said, "We have your two tons of sand." And she went, "What?" She said, "Three days, Brian, that's it." So she let them bring all the sand in. She said there were so many bugs, she said, "Get it out of my house."

• 1:43:30Billy Corgan?

  So it was only three days?

• 1:43:31Speaker 04

  So it was only three days.

• 1:43:32Billy Corgan?

  See, that's a story that never ends, though.

• 1:43:34Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 1:43:35Billy Corgan?

  Thank you.

• 1:43:37Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 1:43:38Billy Corgan?

  Fun?

• 1:43:38Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, I love it. Oh, I could talk to you for like five hours.

• 1:43:41Billy Corgan?

  Thank you.