Zakk Wylde | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan sits down with legendary guitarist Zakk Wylde to discuss their shared love of classic rock influences like Sabbath, Hendrix, and Elton John, and the challenges of forging an original sound in the shadow of greats like Eddie Van Halen and Randy Rhoads. Zakk opens up about his time with Ozzy Osbourne, the evolution of his playing style, his influences, and the brotherhood of musicians. The conversation also touches on the impact of Pantera, Zakk’s tribute performances for Dimebag Darrell and Vinnie Paul, and the spirit of perseverance that drives his career. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDeCB0oUBgw r Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  Zuck, just, just play with your heart. Change your pants, something smells in here.

• 0:38Billy Corgan?

  My high school band was named Hexen.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  Oh, nice.

• 0:41Billy Corgan?

  So when you were in Stonehenge and Xyris, I was in Hexen.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  Nice, we could've toured together back then. Oh my God. And that's why we're meeting today.

• 0:51Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  Because we're gonna put those bands back together.

• 0:53Billy Corgan?

  There you go.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  And do the tour that never was.

• 1:00Billy Corgan?

  Well, thank you for being here. This is my, my big talk show.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me, Paul, Bill.

• 1:04Billy Corgan?

  I'm so excited to talk guitar with you. I'm a total nerd.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  I had to come down to the ultimate podcast over here.

• 1:11Billy Corgan?

  I'm gonna, for full disclaimer, you did bring this Ultimate Warrior today, which is pretty cool.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Just so you could have the, so we'd have the ultimate podcast today.

• 1:18Billy Corgan?

  You know, legal disclaimer, if I get sued over this, I'm sending them to you. I'm sending them to BLS LLC, right?

• 1:26Speaker 01

  No, well, it'll be the ultimate.

• 1:28Billy Corgan?

  What's your LLC called? It's gotta be good.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  The ultimate lawsuit.

• 1:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, the ultimate lawsuit. You gotta have a good LLC name somewhere.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, we'll figure something out.

• 1:39Billy Corgan?

  So doing a little research on you, you're actually older than me, but not by much. Only a couple of months.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  As my dad would always say to me, "You're gaining." Whenever I turned another year, he goes, "You're gaining on me, son."

• 1:52Billy Corgan?

  We're born the same year, 67.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  67.

• 1:55Billy Corgan?

  And so, explain something to me, because I've been a fan of you ever since you showed up with Ozzy, and I was like, "Who's this guy, right?" But I always felt like I understood your playing, and I think we grew up in the same stew of influences. Even though I took it one way.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 2:09Billy Corgan?

  I totally get the way you play guitar, and I love the way you play guitar.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  I appreciate it, man. Right back at you, brother.

• 2:13Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. But what's so cool is I feel like I really get it. I don't know if that makes sense. You know, I'm not saying like I just like the way you play. Like, I feel like I understand why you choose certain notes, why you play certain things.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Well, no, even when, you know, uh...

• 2:27Speaker 01

  We were talking about like when you did the, you know, the interview, remember what you did with Eddie Van Halen?

• 2:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And you were talking about like how you loved, you know, when we were talking about Fair Warning and stuff like that.

• 2:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Cause it was the darkest record.

• 2:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  And like that, which it was, you know what I mean? But, uh, I mean, they're all great, but I mean, you know, Fair Warning had its own identity as well.

• 2:46Billy Corgan?

  It's like this cool left turn, yeah.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Totally. But, uh, no, yeah, cause we all grew up on, like you said, Eddie and Randy, Matthias Jabs and all the, all the, you know, that was the, the new breed coming in.

• 3:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  George Lynch, you know, I mean, all those guys.

• 3:03Billy Corgan?

  Who were some of those 70's guys that like you and I would know?

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Well, obviously, I mean, uh, for me, it was, it's whoever your favorite, you know, if you're a Black Sabbath fan, then it's Tony Iommi's your guy. So for me, it was Tony Iommi, obviously, and then being Jimmy Page, you know.

• 3:18Billy Corgan?

  Right. But you guys, do you like guys like Ronnie Montrose and Pat Travers?

• 3:24Speaker 01

  I found out, obviously, you find out about a lot of the guys later on. My, my guitar teacher at the time, when I first started, was this guy named Leroy Wright. And Leroy was, he was like 10 years older than me, but he was a huge Hendrix guy. And he was the one that turned me on to Frank Marino and Robin Trower.

• 3:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  And, you know, and everything like that, which I would have, you know, at the time, I didn't know, you know, you know of Jimi Hendrix or whatever. But then hearing Frank Marino and then Robin Trower and everything like that. But then, uh, but you know, obviously, the more you're learning guitar, you're learning from your favorite guys, which would be Sabbath was my favorite band. So, you know, trying to learn every Black Sabbath song. But, uh, but then, you know, the more you're learning, then you're finding about this guy's great, this guy's awesome. You know, Ronnie Montrose or any of the guys, Alvin Lee, you know, I mean, Albert Lee, and you know, then your whole, you know,

• 4:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, your world expands.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Horizon opens up, you know, like even with, uh, St. Rose with Randy.

• 4:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  You know, I remember. You know, then finding out that Mick Ronson was his guy, you know, Randy was like Mick Ronson's my guy. And then I remember seeing, you know, us being younger, we're going, oh, you got a Randy Rhodes haircut. And it's like, no, that's, that's a Mick Ronson haircut. You know, I'm just saying, so it all goes, you know, so for a kid when I'm, I'm coming in, it's like, oh, Zach Wilder, it's just like, yeah, Randy's his guy. So it's like, yeah, Randy's guy is Mick Ronson, you know, so.

• 4:46Billy Corgan?

  I know you're a rocker, but your phone's on.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, is it gonna?

• 4:49Billy Corgan?

  It's dinging. It's dinging.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  Oh, is it, oh, is it making noise?

• 4:52Billy Corgan?

  This is, this is an official podcast. You can't have any dinging.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Okay, we gotta keep it pro.

• 4:57Billy Corgan?

  Gotta keep it pro, yeah.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  But, uh, no, but I just always thought it was like, it's so awesome how you just see the correlation between everything and you, and you do research on the history, we were talking about either wrestlers or bands and this and that, your, your favorite bands. And you go, oh, you really like them? Well, you gotta hear so and so, because they got a lot of stuff from them, you know, and it's like, and then you listen and you're like, oh, wow, I never knew about that. You know what I mean? So, which is always awesome.

• 5:25Billy Corgan?

  I thought what I really loved about your playing, and I guess I would have heard you sort of 88, 89.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, Miracle Man and all that stuff.

• 5:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. It was like, wow, this guy has a kind of a 70s foundation, but he's playing different. Does it make sense to you, the way I'm putting it?

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Well, without a doubt, as far as like Frank Marino being like my, one of my favorite guys. And obviously Randy and.

• 5:47Billy Corgan?

  But usually when guys would play with those influences, they would just kind of sound like those guys. Somehow you sounded like you. You know what I'm saying? I could, I could feel where you were coming from, but it felt like, wow, this guy's got a totally different take on it.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Well, you, but you know what was so funny coming, when I first started playing with Oz, right? You know, I'm 19, 20 years old. And it's just like, well, how am I gonna be Zach Wa, you know, like, how am I supposed to be me? Like, what, what's gonna be my sound or whatever? And then I'm just thinking to myself, I go, I will, if you don't want to sound like Ingve,

• 6:21Speaker 01

  you know, because Ingve was, forget about it.

• 6:23Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  I mean, as far as I'm concerned.

• 6:24Billy Corgan?

  Did you see Ingve like that, though, when you first came to America? Did you see any of those tours?

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Put it this way, I remember when I first heard Steeler, it was, it was lights out, because I was like so into.

• 6:32Billy Corgan?

  Me too. I had that album, I was like, oh, my God, what am I doing?

• 6:34Speaker 01

  It was to another level. I mean, I'm just saying, like, you know, yeah, how, like, Jimi Hendrix, obviously it was the, you know, the massive meteor. And then you had.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  You know, then, obviously, King Edward was the second coming, you know what I mean? I'm just saying, as far as like game changing meteor that just hit the planet. And then, I think the last one was, was Yngwie. I mean, as much as, you know, we love, you know, St. Rhodes, you know, you had Eddie and Randy and everything like that, you know, so it was like, but like, forget about when Yngwie, because when, when Ed came out, that just changed everything where everyone was tapping, the harmonics, and not only that, that ushered in the whole, the new, new breed and a new era.

• 7:23Billy Corgan?

  The new gunslinger.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, with Randy, with the, with the pointy guitars, the stripes on the guitars, the polka dots on the guitars, the paint jobs on the guitars, none of the, none of the, you know, between Beck, Clapton, Page, the big three, and then Tony Iommi, and then Richie Blackmore, and all the, all the guys that they got it from, none of the guys had like painted guitars or anything like that. You either played a strat or a Les Paul, you know, you had a cool looking guitar or whatever. But they were the, Eddie and the guys were the ones, the 80, the late 70s, 80s guys were the ones that brought in the different shaped guitars, and not everyone was playing a Les Paul or a strat. So it was like, what is a Jackson? I mean, you know, I remember, you know, people were like, what is, I have never even heard of that, or, you know.

• 8:07Billy Corgan?

  Or a Charvel.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  And Eddie, yeah, would just, Eddie would just have like parts of guitars together, like nobody even knew what he was playing.

• 8:13Billy Corgan?

  Or even thought of doing that.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it wasn't a Fender, it was like, is that a, it looks like a strat body, but what, you know, and then Eddie just tweaking all his guitars, that was the new breed that was coming in. But, no, I mean, for me, I was just like, well, if you don't want to sound like Yngwie, just get rid of harmonic minor and diminished, and it was like, all right, if you don't want to sound like Eddie, then get rid of the tapping and the harmonics and get rid of the whammy bar. And then it was just like, just crossing off all the lists, like if you don't want to be compared to certain, certain people, get rid of that.

• 8:47Billy Corgan?

  I know that about you, but that's pretty cool, that makes a certain sense.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  And then I was just like, well, what's left?

• 8:50Billy Corgan?

  A lot of blues.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, everything, everything was kind of, there's not much room left on the grocery list, and I was just like, well, I guess just pentatonic scales. If I, instead of three notes of scale, like Al Demyola and Ingvay and everything, and what was massively popular at that time. So, it was just like, alright, well then I'll just do pentatonic scales, but I'll pick them. You know, as opposed to just doing hammer ons and pull offs.

• 9:16Billy Corgan?

  Sure, yeah.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  So it was like, alright, so, so every time when I was gonna write a solo, whether it's Miracle Man, or Crazy Train, yeah, I mean, Crazy Babies.

• 9:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  And then, everything that was on that record. Demon Alcohol, everything on No Rest. No Rest for the Wicked, and then No More Tears was next, but I mean, No More.

• 9:34Billy Corgan?

  I see what you're talking about.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  No Rest for the Wicked, that first album. It was just like, I'll just base everything off of pentatonics. Like, you only have, like those cooking shows when they go, you only have X amount of cooking, you know, I give you a basket.

• 9:47Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know that about you, but it makes total sense.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz I was just like, well, what am I gonna do? If you do harmonic minor or this and that, it doesn't matter how fast you play it.

• 9:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  It's gonna go, oh wow, he sounds like a fast Ingvay.

• 9:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  You know, or, or if you do taps even faster than Eddie Van Halen, it's just like.

• 10:02Billy Corgan?

  But did you go sing Ingvay like around 84 at any of those times?

• 10:04Speaker 01

  I never saw Ingvay back then.

• 10:06Billy Corgan?

  Oh my god.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  At that time.

• 10:07Billy Corgan?

  I went when I was like seventeen.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Where'd you see him at?

• 10:11Billy Corgan?

  Ergon Ballroom.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Oh wow.

• 10:12Billy Corgan?

  Talis was opening with Billy Sheen on bass. And it was the Rising Force tour with Jeff Scott Soto singing.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Oh, forget it.

• 10:21Billy Corgan?

  In 84, 85.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:22Billy Corgan?

  And, so, you know, I'm a young shredder, and it just blows my mind, you know what I mean? You know, you have Ingvay. Drunk out of his, drunk off his ass and he's laughing and he's, you know, he's like.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  No, effortlessly.

• 10:34Billy Corgan?

  Effortless.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  I mean, because with Ingvay, what we said, it's just like, it's not just speed, and it's just not, it's not jive. I mean, it's, it's, he's speaking. No, I mean, it's musical.

• 10:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, he's very musical.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  I mean, everything, he's playing, and his feel, his vibrato.

• 10:51Billy Corgan?

  He's, he's ridiculous. His timing, his phrasing. It's like, it makes me laugh, because he's just so, it's like.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 10:57Billy Corgan?

  I saw, I saw you play on that guitar tour, you guys would do.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Oh, the Generation Axe thing, yeah, the fellas, yeah.

• 11:03Billy Corgan?

  I was at one of those shows, Dallas or something. And there's that, there was that bit where Steve I and Ingvay were, they were.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Oh, they were doing Black Star together, yeah.

• 11:12Billy Corgan?

  Back and forth, and Ingvay, I found it online, there's a clip of it. Ingvay did some run, like, low to high. It was so insane that Steve I literally went.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  What Steve would do like every day.

• 11:26Billy Corgan?

  Okay, well, it worked for me because I was like, no, but I had to go find the lick because I, I thought maybe it was in my mind that it was that good and it was that good.

• 11:36Billy Corgan?

  It was like, it was like a swimmer nailing a dive or something.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, Inve is that insanely good, but you know, I mean, but talking about like even with the Generation Axe thing.

• 11:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  You know, because the older you get, you don't realize, you know, I remember seeing like, I remember with the Les Paul tribute. I remember Eddie Van Halen was playing on there, David Gilmour was on there and all this stuff and it was just, I mean, then you, you start to realize like all, like what's David Gilmour gonna do after Eddie gets done shredding up there with the, sitting in with the band. It's like all David Gilmour has to do is be David Gilmour.

• 12:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that's it.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  No, because Dave's gonna go up, well, in fact, I'm not gonna try and sit up there and try and play as fast as Eddie. That's not my thing.

• 12:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  No, because I mean, I'm just saying like we all love pizza. Just be whatever slice of pizza you are. Whether you're a margarita or if you're just a plain slice, or you're a mushroom slice, or you're garlic slice, or you're a pepperoni, or a meat lover slice. I'm just saying, you just go with your strengths. So I'm just saying like, when I'm up there with, with the Generation Axe thing, you know, you have Inve, you have Stevie, you have Nuno, you have Tosin. When we walk in this, you know, I could be at Sound, I just walk in the building. Two seconds in, whenever the guys pick up a guitar, like Nuno, I could tell it's him immediately. You know, like as soon as I hear his vibrato.

• 12:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  I hear Steve's vibrato and then do one lick and just the tone of their guitars, you know it's Steve. Inve picks up the guitar and he just, he doesn't have to do harmonic minor ante. He can play a pentatonic lick, a blues lick like he's playing from Purple Haze or something. And you know it's immediately Inve and then Tosin just whips out just like three notes. And you just go, I mean, at the end of the day, that's what it's all about.

• 13:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  That you have your own voice. You know what I mean? Like Bob Dylan, it doesn't matter whether, you know. Bob can sing as good as Michael Bolton. It doesn't, he has his own sound. You know, just like with Smashing Pumpkins and your vocals.

• 13:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  You know, I'm just saying when, when the alternative thing was huge, between you, Kurt, Lane, Chris Cornell, like soon as I hear like two notes of it, you know who, who's singing.

• 13:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it makes me proud when my kids, you know, I'm like little kids and my song comes on the car and they go, that's daddy.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying.

• 13:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, they know, they know my voice, yeah, that's cool.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  No, Les Paul said that about Pat Martino one day, you know, and Pat's this legendary jazz player and then, but when Pat was young, when he was, he was playing in some club and Les saw him playing. And he was just like, wow, that's, that's amazing, you know, just technically what Pat could do and everything. And he just goes, but can your mom tell it's you on the radio?

• 14:19Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Like Les said that then, all those years ago, and but it really is, it really is the truth. It doesn't matter whether you have the, if you're the most technically amazing player or it doesn't matter, you know, vocally or guitar playing wise or drumming wise.

• 14:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  I mean, because when you hear Keith Moon and I hear John Bonham, it's two distinctly amazing guys, you know, that have their own voice.

• 14:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  So, or Neil Peart. It, those three guys are completely different slices of pizza. Mind you, all amazing slices of pizza, but I mean, it just depends on what mood you're in.

• 15:02Billy Corgan?

  Are you a New York pizza guy?

• 15:04Speaker 01

  I know, I do love pizza, who doesn't, you know, anyway.

• 15:07Billy Corgan?

  Well, I'm a vegan now, so I can't eat Chicago pizza anymore.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Oh, well, well, it depends on whether, we just stick a bunch of broccoli in there for you or some salad, you know what I mean? Whatever, so you'll be fine, we'll just take the meat out of it, you know?

• 15:19Billy Corgan?

  All right. I gotta take you back to, I saw this, I saw these names and I gotta ask. Stonehenge and was it Xeris or Zyrus?

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Oh, Stone, well, Stonehenge was before Zyrus.

• 15:31Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  But we literally, the name of the band was Stonehenge.

• 15:35Billy Corgan?

  My high school band was named Hexen.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Oh, nice.

• 15:38Billy Corgan?

  So when you were in Stonehenge and Zyrus, I was in Hexen.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Nice, we could've toured together back then. Oh my God. And that's why we're meeting today.

• 15:48Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Cause we're gonna put those bands back together.

• 15:50Billy Corgan?

  There you go.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  And do the tour that never was. But I remember Stonehenge, we ended up, we had our manager at the time, our buddy, uh, Mike Colwitz, I still talk to Mike all the time. We talk on a chat all the time. But, uh, Mikey was our manager and I remember him with my mom. They made up a contract, you know, for like, it was the best.

• 16:13Billy Corgan?

  Like an appearance contract?

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Yes, like we're gonna be playing at Ketchum's Kitchen, you know, in the kitchen, you know, I mean, at our buddy's house. And it's just, I remember the, the contract was for like, uh, you know, to, to provide money, the forty dollars was gonna provide money for the, for the P A and to pay the band.

• 16:32Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  But, uh, I remember, and that's all that was on the contract, that, you know, Kevin was gonna pay, you know, cover the forty dollars.

• 16:39Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  And I remember Mike, he had the contract and a hatchet in the briefcase. So this was pre, this was pre Peter Grant reading, you know, reading Peter Grant's autobiography yet. But it was just, uh, yeah, so Mike already knew then, you know what I mean? So we had the contract, maybe a ham sandwich and then this hatchet in, in the case. So just in case settlement didn't happen, you know, we could settle this thing. But, uh, but it was just in Jackson, New Jersey, this is how you handled disputes back then.

• 17:15Billy Corgan?

  No one messes with Stonehenge.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Brookwood Bar and Grill where you could meet Hafeyard. High, high school graduating class would be there. But I mean, but yeah, but Mike, I remember brought the contract in one day and we were gonna play at Kevin's and he goes, well, Kevin, you got the, the forty bucks to pay the band. And he was like. Well, Mike, I was just thinking, maybe, you know, toss a hat around. I only got 20 bucks. I'll just toss a hat around at the end of the night and pay you guys at the end. And he goes, you ain't got the 40 bucks? And he was like, I only got 20 now.

• 17:47Billy Corgan?

  Is he going for the hat?

• 17:48Speaker 01

  He just closes the briefcase. He goes, let's go. We're not doing the gig. And we all were walking out the Mike's car. Yeah, and we're going, then we're gonna play the show, you know? And he's just like, you'll never make any money with that attitude. And next thing you know, Kevin comes running out of the house. He's like, I got the extra 20 bucks.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  And it was just like, why'd you have to do that, man?

• 18:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  No, but like, but that still goes on to this day.

• 18:15Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  So, no, nothing-

• 18:17Billy Corgan?

  Wrestling too, by the way.

• 18:18Speaker 01

  Yes, I agree. So, nothing has changed since, like, 1983, when we were doing these shows.

• 18:25Billy Corgan?

  So, Stonehenge, was it originals or covers or both?

• 18:28Speaker 01

  We did all covers in that one. All covers. I mean, we were doing Bark at the Moon at that time. We may have been opening up with Bark at the Moon.

• 18:34Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  At Kevin's Kitchen. And then I remember we did, we played the Bobby Bush Demolition Fest. And I remember that was when-

• 18:41Billy Corgan?

  This is some New Jersey shit you're showing out here.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  It was awesome. Her parents were, sold the house. It was a, it was a bi-level house, right? Almost like the Brady Bunch kind of thing. And alls I remember is like that movie Weird Science, where half the high school showed up on the front lawn. Well, it was because her parents went to the Poconos and she was gonna have this big blowout. And Stonehenge is gonna play.

• 19:08Billy Corgan?

  Stonehenge.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  And we had the light show. And I remember Mr. Antion, Frank, his buddy, his dad was an electrician. We made our light show out of, out of cans.

• 19:18Billy Corgan?

  Bringing back a lot of memories for me right here.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Totally. But we made the, it had the can, you know, we had the, the light trees. You know, you get it at Home Depot. We just built the things by, in electrical trades. And it was just coffee cans where you could screw the light bulb in. We spray painted the light, you know, whether it's a red one, a blue one, a yellow one, whatever. And we had it on the trees. And I remember Mr. Antion looked at it. He's like, boys, you're not using this thing, are you? And we were like, why, what's the matter with it, Mr. Antion? We've been doing tons of shows with this, with our little lighting rig. But you, you know, you turn the thing on, so it looks all pro. I remember it was just, he was like- Are you kidding me? You're not using this thing. We were like, what's the matter? He's like, anyone touch, all these wires are live.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Anyone touches the wires.

• 20:05Billy Corgan?

  Oh my god.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  So I'm just thinking, between the amount of booze floating around at these high school parties that we're playing at, live wires and everything like that. I'm just, the animal house factor that going on with these Stonehenge shows. But I remember when we did Bobby Bush's house. Her parents were gone, torrential downpour that night.

• 20:25Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  And I remember everyone just parked up on the lawn, parked up out front of the house. People from other, from Freehold, Lakewood, all outside communities coming into Jackson to go to this party. People I've never even seen before. And I remember we opened up with Bark at the Moon. And I remember, all's I remember is just, uh, I mean, the, the house was packed. And I remember going up the stairway, people were just lined up on the stairs, getting hammered, smoking cigarettes, putting them out.

• 20:52Billy Corgan?

  Oh my god.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  In the carpet of the house. And I'm just saying, now that you're a homeowner, there's a whole different outlook and view. Well, put it this way.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  This house, between the sliding closet doors, demolishing, I could make a comedy movie out of this whole thing. But it was just like something out of Weird Science at the end when the guys rolling in with the motorcycles. Demolishing the house completely. No, no cops even showed up at this thing. But it was,

• 21:24Speaker 01

  when we were loading out, the, Bill, me and you would have been looking at the floor going,

• 21:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  We gotta get out of here now, man. I mean, holes in the walls. And I remember somebody wrote on the wall, Stonehenge was here.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  It's like,

• 21:42Billy Corgan?

  You killed, you killed.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  Yes, oh yeah. We killed, we killed Bobby's chances of ever having another party at that house.

• 21:50Billy Corgan?

  Here's my, my same story back. High school party. They'd cover the entire first floor of the house in plastic trash bags in anticipation of the beer party to come.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Well, at least they were being cautious rockers.

• 22:04Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 22:06Billy Corgan?

  I'm, I'm standing, because there's so many people in the room, I'm standing pressed against my son bass stack. Cause I need, I want more volume, so I'm playing through a bass amp.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 22:17Billy Corgan?

  We're playing, uh, uh, Stranglehold by Nugent.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 22:23Billy Corgan?

  I'm, I'm literally in the opening part of the song, you know, the whole bit, cops walk in.

• 22:29Billy Corgan?

  Cop walks me and does one of these. I stop. He goes, you guys gotta quit. I go, but look at all these people. He goes, you wanna go to jail?

• 22:37Speaker 01

  There you go. Well, jail isn't good for-

• 22:40Billy Corgan?

  I love Nugent, but not that bad.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  Good for, jail was-

• 22:43Billy Corgan?

  So we didn't even make it through, I, we didn't even get to the vocal.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  Wow. It didn't even get that far.

• 22:49Billy Corgan?

  That was, that was it. Okay.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  And then everyone proceeded to demolish the house.

• 22:57Billy Corgan?

  I got out. I did, I never, I was so disappointed I got out. I never saw the rest of the party. Um, uh, you and me have a great love and respect for Sabbath. But like, beyond Sabbath, can you just pick like, one band that I might be surprised by that you were really influenced by?

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, it depends. I mean, you know, it's just like-

• 23:17Billy Corgan?

  I know you have a lot of influences.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Elton John, obviously, was the first thing that I, I was every, the power of music. I remember seeing Elton John on, uh, the Sonny and Cher show.

• 23:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  And he was playing, uh, Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. And I mean, at that time, I didn't even know it was a Beatles song. I'm just going, I just thought him and, so it's like crazy whenever I YouTube up, you know, like Elton John's Sonny and Cher show. It's just like, you get, you know, the power of music or movies, you know, that you saw when you were kids.

• 23:46Billy Corgan?

  So that would've been like, you're about 74, right?

• 23:48Speaker 01

  75, yeah, 75.

• 23:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, so you're 7, 8 years old, you're watching this legend, but you don't know he's a legend.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  No.

• 23:53Billy Corgan?

  And if he's doing a Beatles song, you don't know it's a Beatles song, but you know it's like-

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, my mom and dad had Sonny and Cher on.

• 23:57Billy Corgan?

  Whatever this is, is-

• 23:59Speaker 01

  But yeah, so, but was, was kinda funny how you're, all of us, you know, your introduction to certain songs, you know, when people go, why does Hollywood regurgitate, you know, they make, remake movies, where I go- Because for the next generation, they've never seen The Exorcist.

• 24:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  So if they're gonna remake any classic movies, it's because they've never seen it.

• 24:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  You know, cuz I mean like, so I've never even heard, you know, so that was like my first introduction. And I remember my buddy Scott, his older brothers, I was like, oh, I heard this, you know, this amazing song by this guy Elton John, it's so awesome. They were like, Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. I go, Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, Elton John's song, that's a Beatles song, you know? And then they just beat me profusely out in the garage of the house. And then after that, we went and saw James Bond, Moonraker. And I was like, man, we just saw James Bond, that was amazing. And then I was like, Roger Moore's amazing.

• 24:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, he got it again.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  James, Roger Moore, he's not James Bond, Sean Connery's James. So I got beat up again profusely. But like you said, so that was my introduction to those songs.

• 25:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  I mean, or movies or whatever, you know, so it's just like, you know, it just transcends, but it's just like, uh, but yeah, but I remember it was so funny seeing, I was with Oz and, uh, and mom with Mrs. O. Me and Barb got, uh, my wife got, we got remarried for like the 428th time in Vegas, right? And we all went and saw Elton John when he was doing his residency thing. So we were all there and mom got us, cuz she's friends with Elton John, so she's, I never met him before. So I had my book when I was like eight years old. And I have like, I still have the Elton John wall poster and everything like that. But I had, I brought this book I've had since I've been eight years old, you know what I mean? So I got it for Christmas or whatever.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  And we went back and it was, it's amazing cuz I'm, I'm sitting here getting a picture. I got a picture, Oz is on one side and Elton John's on the other. It's like just bizarre land.

• 26:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Like my two biggest musical influences. Yeah, pretty, pretty mind blowing.

• 26:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, I know you're a song guy, meaning when I listen to your music, I know you love song. You know, not every, not every shredder loves song, you know, a lot, some shredders just wait, wait to get it.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, but, but it is kinda funny cuz when a lot of my buddies are, anybody that I know that's shredders, everyone either loves, everyone loves great music. I'm just saying, you know, whether it's yacht rock or we're listening to new wave essentials or whatever. It's just like. Yeah, as much as, no, it is crazy. I mean, I'm just saying, but look at Father Steve with Steve Vai.

• 26:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  One of Steve's, basically his favorite artists is Tom, uh, Tom Waits. And you would never get that.

• 26:47Billy Corgan?

  Never guessed that.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  From, if you, if you were talking about Steve, you would figure Steve, like, one of his favorite artists would be John McLaughlin or Alan Holdsworth or some insane guitar player, right? And so it's just like, Steve's like, oh, no way. He's like, if I was a desert island guy, Tom Waits all day long. Like, that's what's, that, and so trying to put Tom Waits with Steve's insane guitar playing.

• 27:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 27:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's beautiful that, I think you're right. Because what you're reminding me is that most great musicians love great music.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:21Billy Corgan?

  It's probably got, there's some connection there between their love of music and just because they had sort of find their own personality in it. Like you were saying, like, it's not that you didn't love Yngwie, you're like, I don't want to sound like Yngwie, you know what I mean?

• 27:33Speaker 01

  No, totally. I mean, like Yngwie, and even being around Yngwie, he loves, he loves Keith Richards, he loves the Stones, he loves everything, you know what I mean? So it's not that Yngwie's just, and I mean, obviously his love for classical music and Bach and everything like that, he was just like, I mean, he loves that style of music.

• 27:52Billy Corgan?

  Were you like me? Were you trying to look up who the hell is Paganini? Were you in that face?

• 27:55Speaker 01

  No, well, obviously.

• 27:56Billy Corgan?

  Remember you'd read like in the magazine and be like, Paganini, who the fuck's Paganini?

• 27:59Speaker 01

  No, without it, but that's what I'm saying. That's how you discover all these amazing guys. I mean, like, put it this way, like, we was talking about the last meteor to hit the, hit the earth, I mean, as far as guitar impact.

• 28:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  It was just like Derek Shorinian, who, you know, Derek played with Dream Theater and Derek's this, I mean, you could Google up Derek playing Spanish Fly on the piano, right? I mean, Derek's a whole nother level. But it's just like, even Derek was saying when he was at Berklee, because him and JD both went to Berklee, JD who plays in Black Label, so. But when Yngwie hit, they were opening up wards in Berklee. You know, classical wards because of Yngwie's impact.

• 28:39Billy Corgan?

  Oh, interesting.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like guitar studies were all these Bach studies and Vivaldi, Paganini, and it.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Just because of his explosion on the scene and what he, because he made it, everyone wanted to learn it.

• 28:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  You know?

• 28:56Billy Corgan?

  So, I want to jump into your recent stuff. I know you put out a song recently, "Gallows."

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, we were getting ready to do, oh, it's just so weird right now because...

• 29:06Billy Corgan?

  Is that because of the Pantera thing?

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Well, no, I mean, what we're doing, obviously, the Pantera celebration, which is a blast, and we're all having a great time honoring Diamond Vinnie every night. And, you know, Phil and Rex, this amazing thing that they created that just touched so many people. So, I mean, we're all having a blast out on that because with the crew, it's just like one gigantic family. So, we're having a great time out on that, but like in between that, and then we just did the Berserkers Fest and everything like that. So, any, any times in between and the Zach Sabbath thing and all this other stuff, it's just like, between cleaning the dog run, doing dishes, laundry, then it's just like, yeah, whatever time, and yeah, bringing Sabbath page to school or whatever.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Whatever time we, we, empty time we have in there, it just will go into Black Vatican and track some new ideas. So, but it's a weird thing because, I mean, the old model of making, you know, you, you make a record and we put it out.

• 30:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  And you promote it.

• 30:07Billy Corgan?

  It's gone, yeah.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just like you almost kind of just, you could just put singles out.

• 30:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Because it's just like, when you release a record, it just, they could just, as soon as it goes out, it's all there anyways. You know what I mean?

• 30:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  So, it's, it's just a weird, like that, you know, nobody uses rotary phones anymore, you know what I mean? Because everyone has cell phones. It's just like, and there's no payphones anywhere.

• 30:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Because back in the day, you'd have to pull over at a truck stop.

• 30:35Billy Corgan?

  I remember.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  To call home, you know what I mean? So, and it's just like, we'd be walking around going, we'd go to a 7-Eleven, I'd go, "Bill, do you notice something, right?" He goes, "Yeah, there's no payphones."

• 30:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  I go, "Yeah, they're gone."

• 30:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, they're gone. I do want to talk about Black Label, but I start, want to start with Pantera, because obviously you've been doing this touring.

• 30:55Billy Corgan?

  It's hard. I was around that band a lot in the 90s. You probably don't know that, but.

• 31:02Billy Corgan?

  So I got to know Dime a bit and got to see him play live 20 times. And I hope you take this as a compliment because I mean it as a very respectful compliment. I heard, you know, because we were in the biz, you start hearing rumblings that you guys were going to do something.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:19Billy Corgan?

  You know, six, nine months before it happened. And, you know, of course, the first question you'll ask, well, who's going to play guitar? And the minute I heard it was your name, I was like, oh, that's definitely going to work.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Ah, dear, I appreciate it, man.

• 31:32Billy Corgan?

  So I'm glad you take that as a compliment because, because you're one of the only guys on the planet I think could both honor Dime and play the music.

• 31:41Billy Corgan?

  Does it make sense the way?

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I mean, my whole thing is like whenever anybody asked me, like when it was all, this is when Vinnie was still alive. It was just like.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  You know, there was always, well, hey, Zach, man, if the fellas ever do it or whatever, did a reunion, you know, to celebrate Dime and everything like that, would you be, I go.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Of course I would. It's just like, you know, I remember Rob Halford, you know, we were doing, opening for Judas Priest over in Europe on some of the shows. And, or no, down in, when we were down in South America, when we first started doing it. And Rob was like, Zach, this is a real beautiful thing that you guys are doing. And I was like, thanks, Rob. And he just goes. I said, it wasn't a matter of if I'll do it, it's when I'll do it. Because I just equate it to.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Like with Jimi Hendrix and Eric Clapton, like with their relationship. If Mitch and Noel would have said, Eric, we want to go celebrate Jimmy.

• 32:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Would you sing and play Jimmy's stuff?

• 32:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  How, of course Eric Clapton's going to say yes.

• 32:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I get that.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  You know, he was there, you know, if you laid, you know, I laid Dime to rest.

• 32:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  As a pallbearer. So like, what do you think I'm going to do? He's my buddy.

• 32:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. But you know, we live in this complicated world where people. Do silly things, say silly stuff. So the other reason I thought it was gonna work is you have so much respect from people as a musician. It registered in my mind that like if anybody was gonna stand there and sort of navigate it, it was you. I literally can't think of anybody else that could be in that spot.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  I think about it, I appreciate it. No, but I mean, I just always look at it like if Dime and Vinnie were at the soundboard. And we go, we got you guys an early Christmas present, you know what I mean? And they were like, alright, man, cuz you know, the guys were always about having a good time. Everyone partying and just barbecuing and whatever. And they go, check this out, we got a little something for you.

• 33:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  And like all of a sudden, the guys are just sitting out at the front of the house or whatever. And then all of a sudden, the curtain drops and it's just, you know, new level. And the kabuki comes down and it's me, Charlie, Philip Rex. And like, you know, Zack and Charlie wanted to get you, you know, an early birthday present or whatever. And they'd be going, I can't believe these jackasses are playing. You know, because, I mean, they'd be like, I'm just saying, me, if it was Dime doing it, you know, Dime and Vinnie doing it up there with me and Charlie playing either, you know, Ozzy Anthrax songs or Black Label, whatever, it'd just be like, me and Charlie would be like crying, laughing, you know?

• 34:25Speaker 01

  And just like watching Dime doing the solo. No more tears or whatever, you know, it would sound like Dime playing it, you know, regardless. Cuz he's not gonna escape that. Dime could play Eruption and it's gonna sound, you could listen to it and go, yeah, it sounds like Dime playing Eruption.

• 34:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Even if it's note for note, it's just gonna sound like that cuz of his touch and his feel. So just like when Randy Rhoads is playing Paranoid. It sounds like Randy Rhoads playing Paranoid, you know what I mean?

• 34:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  So, but no, I just always picture them every night, you know what I mean? Just like, I just picture them either, you know, cuz especially when Reed is over there on the side of the stage and I'm like that, it's just like, yeah, they would, they'd be, especially those two guys, you know? Because they just love life so much.

• 35:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, one of my favorite memories of Dime is they were playing the Aragon Ballroom. And I'm sure you played there many times, right? You must have.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 35:18Billy Corgan?

  So you know, there's this like, it's the old school thing where there's like the balcony, you know, like the old, the opera singer spot.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 35:24Billy Corgan?

  So I was up there. And, you know, like typical them, they had me drinking whatever.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:30Billy Corgan?

  Or the hell they drank before shows. And I'm not a drinker.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  With a spare liver and pancreas on ice.

• 35:35Billy Corgan?

  So I'm up there, I'm feeling a little, little wobbly. And I don't know what the hell they were playing. And Dime spots me. And like he would, he locks eyes with me. And for a minute, he's just looking at me and he's playing the craziest.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Just shredding.

• 35:54Billy Corgan?

  Doesn't look at the guitar at all. And he's looking at me like, that thing he would do like, fuck yeah. And I'm like, like for a minute, he's just playing, I'm like, why are you playing for me, mother? But that's the way he was, right?

• 36:06Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 36:07Billy Corgan?

  It's like, I know you're watching me.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Totally, man. I use the best, without a doubt.

• 36:13Billy Corgan?

  So, it's beautiful what you're doing. I'm, I'm, I'm glad to see it. Because, you know, you'd heard about it through the years. And even the, the weirdness with the fans and Phil, I'm glad that's all kind of seems to be done.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I just think, I mean, like, anyone that comes and sees it, it's just, I mean, it's, it is what it is. It's a beautiful tribute to the guys. And it really is pretty amazing. Like, every night, you know, Phil just always asks, he's like, well, how many people, you know, saw Pantera back in the day? And then you'll have the, obviously, the Pantera faithful that were like, you know, Zach, I seen, I seen Dime and Vinnie and the fellas when, and, you know, Phil and Rex, when there was like eight people in the, in the club or whatever, you know? And then, until when the guys exploded and whatever. So it was just, you have the Pantera faithful, and he's like, alright, how many, how many people, this is their first time ever hearing these songs live?

• 37:07Speaker 01

  I'd have to say it's either 75%, I mean, like, of the younger kids.

• 37:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, well, that's, but that's, it's about the music.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, my Uncle Zach took me, you know, my Uncle Zach always told me about the legend of Pantera, and, you know, how great they were, and it was just like this force to be reckoned with. And it's just like, so you have, you know, so now I'm bringing my nephews, who are old enough to see it now, you know, because they were five years old.

• 37:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  When Pantera wanted to end it.

• 37:33Billy Corgan?

  Great songs, too, great.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's what I always say, what separates, well, what separated Sabbath from everything, it's not because it's heavy.

• 37:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  It's because it's great songs. I mean, you know, so it's just like, with our Pantera. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, I always, you know, I always say Pantera is in their genre of extreme metal. They are the gold standard of where everything, just like how Sabbath and Zeppelin, the Stones, the Beatles are the gold standard.

• 38:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  For what, you know, so if it's southern rock band, just the Allman Brothers and Skinnerd.

• 38:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  Are the gold standard of that style of music. So, I mean, with extreme, they're all measured by what Pantera said.

• 38:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I think I told this story somewhere else, but I'll tell it to you because you probably don't know it, but I was backstage with them and it was when Metallica was kind of having trouble somewhere in the 90s, you know, like fans didn't like the record. It was, I don't remember.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  Navigating through the crazy.

• 38:35Billy Corgan?

  Whatever. It was just those weird years where they were kind of figuring out what became Metallica 2.0 or whatever. And, you know, the guys in Pantera being fans were kind of bitching about Metallica. You know what I mean? They were just being how they were, you know, they're just drunk rednecks, whatever. You know what I mean? Whatever, it's just the way they were. And I knew them well enough to.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Fellas having a good time.

• 38:58Billy Corgan?

  Sure. So, they're going on about Metallica and I just, you know, again, I knew them enough to, I'd heard enough and I said, "Shut up." And they all looked at me like, "What'd you just say to us?" And I said, "You're the best metal band in the world right now. You're the best metal band in the world. They'll be fine. Worry about Pantera." And they were all like, they wanted to argue with me and they were like, "You just gave us a compliment." So, that's my fun days.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  But that happens with everybody, whether it be Zeppelin is so huge.

• 39:36Billy Corgan?

  Sure. It comes from a place of love because if you love the band, you're like.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, you wouldn't be concerned with them.

• 39:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Totally, man.

• 39:44Billy Corgan?

  One quick funny thing. First time I ever heard of Pantera, we were playing Seven Street Entry, if you ever played there. That's, it's the side club in Minneapolis. There's the first.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Where are the Prince?

• 39:55Billy Corgan?

  Yes, but it's the side club. It holds like 300 people.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 39:59Billy Corgan?

  So, we were an indie band in the 80s, you know, we'd go play there.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 40:02Billy Corgan?

  And we were in there one night and this guy goes.

• 40:07Billy Corgan?

  Motherfuckers were here last night. You gotta hear, this is the sound guy, I don't even know the guy. He goes, "This band that was here last night, Pantera." Why, what's Pantera? And he holds up the flyer, and it's when they were doing, they were like,

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Oh, they had the big hair, yeah.

• 40:21Billy Corgan?

  Like, the big hair Pantera?

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Totally, yeah.

• 40:23Billy Corgan?

  And he was like, "I never heard a band like this in my life."

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, the intensity.

• 40:28Billy Corgan?

  You know, you just hear this name, and it just lays there for years, like Pantera, and then suddenly they burst on the scene whenever.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Like The Warrior. You hear the dun dun dun dun dun dun, and him running out to the ring.

• 40:40Billy Corgan?

  There you go.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Shaking the ropes.

• 40:42Billy Corgan?

  See, you're smart, it all goes back to wrestling.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  So that, it was that type of impact.

• 40:46Billy Corgan?

  I want to ask you a little bit, because I ran into Vinny a lot in the, in, in those years after Diamond passed away. And I know you saw him too, so I feel it's worth talking about Vinny, because that, it was really hard to see how broken-hearted he was. It's not that he wasn't trying to move on with his life, you know, Vinny was Vinny.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:09Billy Corgan?

  He was always gonna be a party wherever Vinny was.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you never, you never move on from that, you just, you know.

• 41:15Billy Corgan?

  So how, how did you, as a friend or a compatriot?

• 41:18Speaker 01

  You have to carry on, but you know, you're never.

• 41:20Billy Corgan?

  But how did you, how'd you perceive that at the time?

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Like, you know, with Vin, obviously, you know, as, as friends, you all support each other, so, but it was just, um,

• 41:33Speaker 01

  no, I remember when Vin, you know,

• 41:37Speaker 01

  but yeah, it's, it's a weird thing, you know, that, but that's when you see who your real friends are and everything, you know, because I mean, between Bride Dog and all the guys in his community, and then, you know, when, when he started the thing with the Hell Yeah guys, all, all the fellas in that camp, and, and the crew and everything like that. So, would always be, you know, around Vin and everything like that, so I mean, but as far as, I always tell everybody, if you ever want to honor Diamond Vinny. It's, it was their love of life. You know, because Vinnie, when we were doing the Hell Yeah Tour, we were doing the Megadeth Tour. So it was, it was Megadeth.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  When Father Dave was, you know, when Disturbed was on hiatus and he was doing his solo thing at the time, Device. And then it was Hell Yeah, and then Black Label. We were all rolling together. I remember Vinnie got tickets for me and Phil, who rolls with Black Label. He got us tickets because we're big New York Giant guys. And Vinnie being a huge Dallas Cowboy guy. So he got tickets, he's like, alright, next season, we're all going to see the Cowboys and the Giants. So Vinnie got tickets for that. Obviously, the massive blowout at Vinnie's house.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  Then we all go to the game. But it was just, but yeah, Vinnie, and then when we, even when we were doing that tour, it was just the way Pantera rolled. It just carried on with that. I mean, it's like every day, massive spread after the gig, you know, when there was loadout going on. Tent, it would be Van Halen cranking, Led Zeppelin cranking, Sabbath cranking. I mean, everything. It would just, and just a massive spread of food. You know, with ribs and everything like that and stuff. And then we'd have to get you your vegan pie, you know what I mean? We'd have to.

• 43:25Billy Corgan?

  Thank you, appreciate that.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 43:27Billy Corgan?

  I can almost hear Vinnie and Dime making fun of me.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  But they would have said, we made sure we got you vegan. You know they would have got you the vegan dishes.

• 43:35Billy Corgan?

  Absolutely. I want to jump in the Ozzy years because, you know, you were how old when you tried out for Ozzy?

• 43:42Speaker 01

  I was what, 19 or right before, yeah, 20 years old.

• 43:46Billy Corgan?

  It strikes me because not only, obviously you got the gig, but you immediately jump into his world and you start contributing. You take him in this different music.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  It was a weird thing because I mean, you know, I remember when I was at the audition. It was kind of funny because all the other guys.

• 44:04Billy Corgan?

  Did you fly out from, like, did they fly you out?

• 44:06Speaker 01

  They flew me out, yeah, from New Jersey out to LA, right?

• 44:08Billy Corgan?

  So they fly you coach your first class?

• 44:12Speaker 01

  I was in luggage, you know.

• 44:13Billy Corgan?

  Exactly.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Because they didn't know whether it's going to pan out or not.

• 44:16Billy Corgan?

  Sharon, Sharon does watch her pennies.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  No, mom doesn't skimp though, you know, she'll take, she takes care of everybody. But, but the whole thing is I came out and I remember, but you know, some of the guys that were auditioning, it was so weird because everybody was talking about. You know, I hear the gig pays well, you know, it's a good opportunity, or whatever, career opportunity, and alls I was thinking is, you know, here I am, I've been wearing a Yankee jersey, you know, I'm a fan of the Yankees, like, to me, that jersey is sacred ground, you know, to put Yankee pinstripes on, and, you know, my hero's Thurman Munson, I'm a catcher, and now, I'm standing in the same spot where Thurman Munson stood.

• 45:03Billy Corgan?

  I get it.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  So, for me, that's how sacred it is.

• 45:10Billy Corgan?

  I get it.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  To me, so.

• 45:12Billy Corgan?

  As a Sabbath guy, I get it.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and like, for everybody else.

• 45:15Billy Corgan?

  And Ozzy with Ran, I mean, come on.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  But a lot of other people, they were just like, yeah, whatever, you know, take it or leave it, I think it's a good paying gig.

• 45:21Billy Corgan?

  Well, to make you laugh, real quick, we just tried out, we needed a guitar player, so we said, we'll take anybody, we got 10,000 people submitted to be our new guitar player. And, you know, you go through the list, and you pick people who've got a little bit of a resume, and you could just see people coming through the door, it's just a gig, and you're like, this is my life, motherfucker, you know what I mean?

• 45:45Speaker 01

  You know, somebody, yeah, if they grew up loving the Oakland Raiders, and now they're an Oakland Raider, you know, so it's just like...

• 45:52Billy Corgan?

  You could just tell some people it was just another gig, it was weird to me, it's like, where's your heart in this? Like, if you don't like my music, you probably shouldn't be here, you know what I mean, it's like...

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Without a doubt.

• 46:01Billy Corgan?

  Like, what is that? So, I get it, like, you as a fan, particularly of Sabbath, you must have been like, oh my gosh.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was just hoping to get an autograph, and a picture with Ozzy, I can't even believe this is happening, you know what I mean, so, yeah, it was just, uh...

• 46:14Billy Corgan?

  So, did you audition with the band, like, who was the band?

• 46:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I played with Randy Castillo was there, and Phil Schusann, and Phil and Randy.

• 46:20Billy Corgan?

  I hung out with Randy a couple times, what a lovely guy.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  Amazing, Randy was awesome, and Phil's a great guy, too, I mean, I hung out with, they made me feel real comfortable, and, uh... They were like, yeah, Zach, why don't we do Suicide Solution? We'll do Crazy Train, Bark at the Moon, or whatever, you know, I don't know. And I was like, yeah, let's do it.

• 46:37Billy Corgan?

  Any singing, or just the band playing instrumental?

• 46:39Speaker 01

  No, just playing, you know. Oz wasn't there yet, and then they had me come back the next day, and that's when I met Ozzy. And you know, Oz was like, "Zach, just, just play with your heart. And change your pants, something smells in here." It was after I crapped my pants, and then, you know, and then Oz goes, "And then Zach, go make me a ham sandwich, but go light on the mustard. The Coleman's is a very powerful mustard, it'll overpower the sandwich." So, ever since then, I've been making ham sandwiches for the boss, I always say, and going light on the Coleman's.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  But I mean, no, but he just, Oz was super cool, and, and everything was great, and then, you know, we, uh... But it was so funny, because Ozzy had said to me, he goes, "Have I met you before?" And I was like, unless Oz saw me, you know, when, when, on the Bark at the Moon tour, when Motley Crue opened up for him, when we saw him at, it was either at the Garden or the Spectrum, and it was just like, and Oz saw us going nuts under the mezzanine level, or whatever, maybe that's the only place you could've seen me, but he was just like, "No, I, I, I've seen you somewhere before." And Oz goes, "I know where I've seen you," he goes, because Oz never went through any of the tapes.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  He'd just be like, "Billy, Zach, sort out the guitar," you know, "and when you get down to the, the, the final guys, I'll come down and say hi." So, uh, but I guess, you know, my sister took a Polaroid of me on my mom and dad's porch, right? And Ozzy said he looked at it, and he goes, "Oh, look at this little kid, he must really love Randy Rhoads." Which we do, still do. Always will, but uh, yeah, but he was just like, that's, I guess that's, Ozzy goes, now I remember where I saw you. Cause that was, that was the only picture of, you know, of all the cassettes or that I actually took a look at, cause it was sitting on the kitchen counter in the house.

• 48:41Billy Corgan?

  Sure, he's probably walking by.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  And he goes, oh, look at this kid, must really love Randy Rhoads. He goes, I didn't think anything of it, and then that's it.

• 48:47Billy Corgan?

  There you are.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  So that's where I, I remember seeing you.

• 48:50Billy Corgan?

  So you step into this crazy world, Ozzy, Ozzyland, um, you know, um.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  Well, put it this way, when I first joined the band, right, it was just like, I remember going, obviously when we were in England and we started writing, and uh, I, nobody would want to hang with Oz, because I was the only one that wanted to hang with him and drink. So, and that's why mom eventually started calling us the gruesome twosome, right? So, you know, like I, I remember Bobby Thompson, God bless his soul. Bobby had known Ozzy since like, cause he was working with Nazareth back in the seventies and everything, and he knew Ozzy from Sabbath, and you know how everybody knows everybody in different crews? Yeah, and everybody knows everybody, and then they, you know, they were working with, you know, if they were working with Alice in Chains, now they're out with, you know, Smashing Pumpkins,

• 49:42Speaker 01

  then they're out with Black Label, then they're out with, you know, Ozzy, and everybody's, all the crew guys are in, knows everybody, so they're in different camps. So, he started working with Oz when Oz started with Randy and playing the clubs and doing everything like that. So then he was, now he's talking with me, and I'm drinking with the boss, and he goes, Zacky, Zacky, you don't wanna, you don't wanna go drinking with Oz. And I go, but I like drinking with Oz. And he goes, Zacky, you don't wanna get into the web, stay out of the web. You know, they kind of, cause he said, cause basically what Oz would do is just go, you know, mom would always go like, who were you out drinking?

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Well, I was out drinking with Billy last night, and Zacky, and Bobby, you know, so then we'd, he'd throw everybody under the bus.

• 50:35Billy Corgan?

  It's your fault.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  So Bobby's saying, stay out of the web. But I never got out of the web, I would always stay with Oz and we'd go drinking all the time, but uh. Yeah, but it was, it was pretty hilarious though, man. But, but mom called up Barbara Ann, my girlfriend at the time, my wife now, right? And he goes, Barbara Ann, can I, can I speak with her? And Barb's like, why, of course, Mrs. Osborne. And he goes, does, does Zacky have a drinking problem? And she goes, oh, no. Zack drinks milk and stuff. And he goes, oh, he does now.

• 51:08Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my God.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Oh, but anyways, yeah, so. Whereas my other friends, all my buddies went to college. I'm with Ozzy Osbourne University, where I graduated in.

• 51:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  In cocktails and the art of drinking, you know what I mean?

• 51:25Billy Corgan?

  Were you, um, cause I, you know, I've been around Ozzy a few times and worked with Tony a bit. It's like, it's hard not to ask them the 8,000 questions that you. I might, I know you've known for so long now, it wouldn't matter. But when you're first starting with somebody, did you resist the temptation or did you want to jump in?

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I jumped right in.

• 51:45Billy Corgan?

  I love it.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  There was no.

• 51:47Billy Corgan?

  I love it.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  No resistance whatsoever.

• 51:49Billy Corgan?

  Were you doing like, you know, on Sabbath, bloody Sabbath, were you doing that stuff?

• 51:52Speaker 01

  Oh, no, as far as, yeah, Ozzy and Ozzy would tell me all the stories. So like, here I am, like mega super fan of Sabbath, cause Sabbath is my favorite band. And then him starting with Randy and then I love Jake and then, I mean, there just is all his solo stuff. And now I'm in the band, like me playing with the Yankees. And I get a chance to talk with Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle and Lou Gehrig and, and Yogi Berra and hear all these insane stories and Billy Martin, you know what I mean? It's just like.

• 52:20Billy Corgan?

  Did you ever get to, in the old Yankee Stadium, did you ever get to go in that locker room?

• 52:23Speaker 01

  No, I've never toured, you know, and obviously.

• 52:25Billy Corgan?

  The old one, before they tore it down?

• 52:26Speaker 01

  But they still had Thurman's, Thurman's locker.

• 52:29Billy Corgan?

  Quick story for you. So I'm buddies with David Wells, the great.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, Dave's great.

• 52:33Billy Corgan?

  Right, I'm sure you've hung with Dave. So, uh, Dave and I were hanging out in New York somewhere when he was pitching for the Yankees. And he left me tickets to a playoff game. So I end up sitting next to Mrs. Shambless, Chris Shambless, the.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 52:46Billy Corgan?

  Former Yankee, and very nice. And so I watched the game. And then Dave said, after the game, go, go here. You know, go stand there. Family area. So I'm standing there and here comes Joe Torre, wants to talk to me. Recognized me, shook my hand. I'm like, oh my God. Cause I saw Joe Torre play when he was with the Mets in like

• 53:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 53:04Billy Corgan?

  Seventy-five or something, right? So I go, oh my God, it's Joe Torre. So I'm standing there and, and, and Mr. Torre said to me something like, you waiting for somebody? And I said, well, I think somebody's supposed to come get me. He goes, oh yeah, just stay here. Somebody will come get you. So he leaves. And somebody comes, Billy, follow me. Dave, da, da, da. So they take me down into the bowels. I don't know. I have no idea where I'm going. Turn left, turn right, turn left, turn right. Open a door. Now I'm in the Yankees clubhouse.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 53:33Billy Corgan?

  I'm like.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, from the original Yankee stadium.

• 53:35Billy Corgan?

  I know enough about sports teams. It's like, be careful if you want to go into clubhouse.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 53:40Billy Corgan?

  You gotta, it's, it's their

• 53:42Speaker 01

  Sacred ground.

• 53:43Billy Corgan?

  It's their space, right?

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:44Billy Corgan?

  So now I'm talking to David Cone, you know, who was the great center fielder during those years?

• 53:51Speaker 01

  Oh, Bernie Williams.

• 53:52Billy Corgan?

  Bernie, talking to Bernie. Everyone's being super nice, you know what I mean?

• 53:56Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 53:56Billy Corgan?

  Harold Jacks, Harold, he used to play for Astros. He was a commentator at the time. I know you know I'm talking about.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Harold Reynolds?

• 54:04Billy Corgan?

  Harold Reynolds. He's, he's, at that point, he's a reporter for ESPN. He turns around and goes, what the hell are you doing here? I'm like, I don't know. Somebody brought me in here.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:12Billy Corgan?

  So, because David, I think, won the game.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Yankees just signed me. I'm starting tonight.

• 54:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I am. I'm a lefty.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 54:21Billy Corgan?

  I got a good, I got a good curveball. Anyway, finish the story. So Dave's got to go do post media because he won the game or something. So I'm like, I don't know what to do. And I'm like, you know, like you're a little kid. Like, I don't know where to go. So somebody goes.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  Just being respectful, just chilling out.

• 54:36Billy Corgan?

  Absolutely. I know, I know. And Dave's like, no, just stay there. You know how he is.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:40Billy Corgan?

  Who cares? Just stay there.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 54:42Billy Corgan?

  Right. So, so somebody comes over and says,

• 54:47Billy Corgan?

  Go, go in there and have some food. They said like a little, they had a little catering area. It's like smaller than this area we're in right now. So, I go in there, there's nobody in there. And it's obviously the players' food. But, and the guy who brought me was like a staffer or something, goes, "Go ahead and have some food, it's all good." So, you know, I get some mustacholi and, so when I wasn't vegan, you know?

• 55:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:07Billy Corgan?

  And I, I make my little plate, and I'm, I'm standing there eating, and I feel a tap on my shoulder, and I turn around, it's George Steinbrenner.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 55:17Billy Corgan?

  And I go, and I'm expecting him to rip me apart. "Who the hell are you? What are you doing here?" He goes, he goes, "You like the Yankees?"

• 55:26Billy Corgan?

  And I, I mean, I know who he is, right?

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 55:28Billy Corgan?

  And I go, I go, "Honestly, I'm a Cubs guy." And he goes, "But do you like the Yankees?" And I go, "Love the Yankees." He goes, "Is the food good?" I'm like, "Yeah, it's great." He goes, "Have a great time. Lovely to see you here."

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 55:43Billy Corgan?

  So I'm good with the boss.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 55:45Billy Corgan?

  So, that's mine.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  But that's great, I mean.

• 55:47Billy Corgan?

  Hey, but when you're standing there where Ruth stood and...

• 55:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. It's amazing.

• 55:51Billy Corgan?

  Lou Gehrig, are you kidding me?

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Without a doubt.

• 55:53Billy Corgan?

  As a baseball fan, I get chills just telling you, it's like...

• 55:55Speaker 01

  No, totally.

• 55:56Billy Corgan?

  It's cool.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  That's why, it is pretty great, that's why I'm saying, it is pretty crazy. You know, I mean, I love new stadiums, but like, I just hope they never tear Fenway down or Wrigley.

• 56:07Billy Corgan?

  We just played Fenway with Green Day and Wrigley?

• 56:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:10Billy Corgan?

  Dude, I mean, come on.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  I mean, amazing. But what I'm saying is like the same thing, they tore Yankee Stadium down, and I'm saying like if they build a new Fenway Park, you know, and it's, and it's bigger and it's better and more modern, you know?

• 56:25Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Stuff and everything like that, it's just like, yeah, but it's, I mean, something has to be said. You know, because in Vegas too, they just knock everything down. No, but nothing has any historic value.

• 56:37Billy Corgan?

  Nothing sacred in Vegas for sure.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you would think of the stands, like if we owned it, I would keep it exactly the way it was.

• 56:43Billy Corgan?

  Frank was here.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  When Frank and the fellas were there, when the Rat Pack was there. And literally leave the hotel the way it was and the suites, the way they were. The Sammy suite, the Frank suite, the Dean and everything like that. And literally the TVs, everything, maybe change the carpeting so the carpeting's fresh or whatever. But the exact same carpeting, so it's literally a time warp. And then build on to the hotel with the modern stuff. So you know, people could go, oh man, did you stay in the, in the original or the back?

• 57:16Billy Corgan?

  The Frank, yeah, yeah.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And it would be, you know, we charge a ton for the, for the evening that you spend in the Frank suite. And you have dinner and the whole nine yards. But like make a, make a big thing out of it, but it's just like, something has to be said about the old ballparks. Like Fenway and you have Wrigley.

• 57:31Billy Corgan?

  So you're doing, you're doing what I called if I ruled the world.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:34Billy Corgan?

  So this is if Zach ruled the world.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:36Billy Corgan?

  I like, I want to live in the, the world you're ruling because it sounds good to me.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like CBGB's, I never got a chance to play that. Did you ever play it?

• 57:45Billy Corgan?

  Twice.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  But that's why I'm shocked that like.

• 57:50Billy Corgan?

  By the way, it sounded amazing in there.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Didn't purchase it.

• 57:55Billy Corgan?

  Crazy, right?

• 57:56Speaker 01

  And just leave it.

• 57:57Billy Corgan?

  Make it a museum or something.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Or keep it still, so it's still running. I'm just saying, so let's say if, if, if Johnny Lydon actually bought it and owns it.

• 58:07Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  You know, and it's just like, who owns it?

• 58:09Billy Corgan?

  Or some billionaire owns it and says Johnny Lydon owns it, right?

• 58:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he's, he's the ambassador of the club.

• 58:14Billy Corgan?

  Sure, see, if Zach ruled the world, I like it. We should do a whole, next time you come back, we'll do if Zach ruled the world.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, like what about history here, man? You know what I'm saying? And I'm actually talking about history on the Hendrix Experience thing, right? Because we're doing that right now, which is always a blast. Um, the owner brought out Jimmy's White Strat.

• 58:32Billy Corgan?

  Oh, wow.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  The one that he played the national anthem on at Woodstock.

• 58:36Billy Corgan?

  The Woodstock.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  The Woodstock Strat.

• 58:38Billy Corgan?

  Did you get to play it?

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just noodled around it for a little bit, but I mean, I'm just saying the magic.

• 58:43Billy Corgan?

  I'm super jealous right now.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, well, it's the same thing with any of Randy's guitars or Eddie's guitars. You know, like what is the guitar Ed played on Eruption? I mean, that's the historic value on that alone.

• 58:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  The recording of that, you know what I mean? Or Jimmy Page's Double Necks and you know.

• 58:59Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  I mean, like how you said, like all these, all these guitars that go for auction, whether it was a. What was it Kirk Obanes, the acoustic, you know, that he used on?

• 59:08Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's a funny story. I don't know if you know that story.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Oh, what the, how it was bought at an auction?

• 59:13Billy Corgan?

  No, no, how, how the guy who sold it got it.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  How, what happened on that?

• 59:17Billy Corgan?

  He was married to Frances.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 59:20Billy Corgan?

  And in the divorce or something, he claimed, at least this was the story that I saw, don't know if it's true, but he claimed that she gave it to him.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  Like, she should be owning that guitar.

• 59:34Billy Corgan?

  I've known, you know, I've known Frances since she was in the crib, so it was a hard story to see, you know?

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:40Billy Corgan?

  That's a funky one.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  Ah, just buy it back.

• 59:42Billy Corgan?

  Back to you. There you go. If we ruled the world, maybe we'll rule the world together.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  Do the right thing, give it back to the friends.

• 59:48Billy Corgan?

  Vegan alternative side. You deal with the ribs and the, and the Yankees. In doing the research, I mean, I kind of knew these things, but you know, you're kind of reminded that Bob Daisley played on the, the, the first record you did with Ozzy, right?

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:04Billy Corgan?

  But then, but then in Ozzy world, of course, then Geezer ends up coming back for the tour.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:00:10Billy Corgan?

  So now you're playing in half a Sabbath.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  It was.

• 1:00:13Billy Corgan?

  You must have totally geeked out.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 1:00:16Billy Corgan?

  Geezer's unbelievable. And Bob Daisley's amazing, too.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  Well, and Bob's amazing as well, without a doubt.

• 1:00:22Billy Corgan?

  Geezer plays such, such cool stuff.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  Actually, both, Bob, Bob is ridiculous, too. I mean, his bass lines are, you know, because Bob's a huge Jamerson, Paul McCartney guy and everything like that. And same thing with Geezer, who wrote All Stars with Jamerson.

• 1:00:36Billy Corgan?

  Geezer plays this weird way where it's like he makes the songs heavier. Because if you really listen to Sabbath guitar, he's playing some amazing riff, but it's really Geezer that gives it this kind of the weird.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  No, it's just, it's, it's amazing, their bass playing is just ridiculous. I mean, aside of either whether, whether they're gonna double the riff or then they're gonna, they're gonna play some counterpoint to a riff, but I mean.

• 1:00:56Billy Corgan?

  I just, I just saw that and I, I just, I had to ask you.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  It is pretty amazing, you know, because Geezer was another one like Ozzy where I could pick his brain about Sabbath things. And it was just like.

• 1:01:08Billy Corgan?

  Geezer used to write a lot of the lyrics.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  Well, here, here's a good one. When we were doing the Osmosis record with, uh. Geezer was back together on that one when we did, you know, with Perry Mason and See on the Other Side and anything like that. So we were recording a bunch of it with Dean Casper Nova. It was Dean, Geezer, me and Oz, right? With Michael Beinhorn was working on that record with us. So, but Mikey, we recorded the drums in Paris and then we came back to New York and we were recording and I mean, so I had a blast making that record as far as like going out to all the, we were right off, right in the center of like Paris. So we'd be going out to whiskey bars every night, just hanging out after we got done tracking. Then the same thing in New York City. So it was just a blast the whole time.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  But I remember, I remember there was this place in New York City called The Magical Child, occult bookstore, right? It's not there anymore, but it was like this legendary occult bookstore where everything was in it. You had, you had Christianity, you had everything in there, Catholicism, Satanism, Crowley, you had Wicca, you had, everything is one stop shop and occult bookstore, right? On every religion. So I remember going in there and it was just epic. At first I bought, so I got some books. I got the Satanic Bible and some, some books on Crowley. You know, just like I was gonna do a book report on like, who's Babe Ruth?

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  What's the big deal with this Babe Ruth guy, right? Like, what's the big deal with Crowley? And why is everyone so enamored with? So I get a couple Crowley books, obviously the Satanic Bible, all this Anton LaVey stuff. And then, so they had a, they had a mural of Anton, I mean, Alice Crowley. And I go, how much for the painting? I mean, the poster? And I had to ask him. Like, Bill, if you would, I would have been, how much for the painting? The guy goes, $6.66. I go, awesome. I go, here's seven bucks. Keep the change. Yeah, right. So anyways, I get all this stuff. So we're tracking in the studio. I got the picture of Crowley up on the wall. There's this mural of him. I got a picture of Jimmy Page up on

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  the wall, a picture of Jimi Hendrix, a poster of Jimi Hendrix up on the wall, because I was at some record stores. So I got all this stuff up on the wall. And I remember Oz, Oz comes in the one day and he goes, I'm tracking guitars and he goes, he's just looking at the picture, he's telling me, he sees the picture of Jimmy Page and he goes, oh man, he goes Zach, I remember me and Bonzo and he's telling me these amazing Bonzo stories.

• 1:03:40Billy Corgan?

  The Sabbath and Zeppelin camp, tight.

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. Yeah, well, from Birmingham and everything like that, so, but he said, you know, it was mostly John Bonham that he was buddies with. So, you know, the rest of the guy, and Robert, he kinda knew Robert, but you know, but it was more John, where they'd go out drinking and getting hammered. So, he was telling me some hilarious stories with the two of them. And then he goes, talking about Jimi Hendrix, he goes, I remember me and Geezer went and saw him, we were like, this can't be real. You know, when he was playing behind his head with his teeth, they were going, this has gotta be the tape, or is it, this is, you know, cause they said it was, it just didn't even look real. And then he goes, he goes, Zach, Zach, who's, who's the bald headed on the wall?

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  And I go, you would have been there, I go, Oz, you don't know who that is? And he just goes, who is this? I go, oh, come on, Oz, you don't know who that is? Who is it? I go, you've been singing about him since like 1979, 1980.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  Oh, come on, who is it? I go, you don't know who that is? He goes, who, where the fuck is it? I go, Oz, that's Aleister Crowley, Crowley, Aleister Crowley. And he goes, and he walks up to the poster and he stares, he goes, oh, is that what he looks like?

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  And then, then he goes, Geezer's sitting there, and Geezer goes, who's the, who's the Anton LaVey? Where have I heard that name? And Geezer goes, cause the Satanic Bible was sitting at the thing. And he goes, Geezer, cause Geezer knows all about it, you know, he's well read on it, you know, like if you ask him about baseball players, just like what number was, you know, Mickey Mantle? Rookie season, he was six, then he turns it to seven, you know, cause they wanted in succession or what, he could tell you the history on the players or whatever. What number was Thurman Munson? He was number 15, you know, whatever. So, it was just like. Geezer's the, you know, the college professor of the occult stuff in with the Sabbath guy.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  So Geezer could tell you who they are and he just goes, he goes, Geezer, who's that Anton LaVey? Who do I know that name for? He goes, you remember when we had the record release party in California, in San Francisco?

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  They had on California Street where the Church of Satan was.

• 1:06:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  He goes, they had a record release party like a parade. Exactly. Well, it's a condo now, right? So it's just like, he goes, but we had, they had a record, you know, Warner Brothers had a record release party for the first album.

• 1:06:27Billy Corgan?

  For the first album?

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  Yes, for the very first Sabbath album. And Oz goes, oh, he was the guy with the shaved heads. And he goes, yeah, yeah, that was, that's Anton LaVey. And Oz goes, oh, oh, I remember now. No wonder why the album didn't do as well as it could have.

• 1:06:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  Now, I'm just saying, it's awesome. I mean, Oz has zero clue who any of these people are. Nor zero interest. Like he has, he has kind of like a brief knowledge of some of who these people are. But it's just like, but he has him like World War II.

• 1:07:11Billy Corgan?

  He loves his World War II history.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  If he was on Jeopardy for World War II, I'll take, you know, 500 for that question or this one. Yeah, without a doubt.

• 1:07:20Billy Corgan?

  I, I love Michael Beinhorn as a person. As a producer, I didn't see eye to eye with him and a lot of people didn't see eye to eye with him. And I'm not asking for dirt.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  No, but it's weird because I know I've heard, I've heard those stories, but I, me and Mike, he got along great, but I mean.

• 1:07:37Billy Corgan?

  But didn't, just sorry to frame it slightly, but.

• 1:07:41Billy Corgan?

  It seems like, you know, you just reading stuff, except, you know, I'm asking you because you were there. But it seems like that's where things start to get a little weird. You know, that was it. Career insecurity for Ozzy and because I read something about even Steve I was writing songs with him.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  No, I think it was, um.

• 1:08:00Billy Corgan?

  I'm just saying, I'm trying to understand the atmosphere that led to you leaving.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  Um, no, when I was there.

• 1:08:06Billy Corgan?

  And I'm not looking for dirt, I'm just trying to understand.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  No, I'm saying is like when, when we did, obviously when we came back to do Osmosis in 95. You know, because obviously No More Tears was 91, 92, whatever. And then we did Live, Live and Loud, the live album. And then we had like See on the Other Side and there were some other songs.

• 1:08:28Billy Corgan?

  Massive hits.

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  Ready to go, but they didn't put it on, you know, they were going to be bonus tracks. But then it came over to, uh, when we did Osmosis. That's when Oz was, you know, jamming with Steve, wrote My Little Man and some other ones on there. I remember I had to call Steve up, go, I called Stevie up, I'm like, Steve, what's the tuning on this sitar? And, you know, I had to get the tune, he was like, Zacky, it's this, that and the other, you know? I was like, all right, Stevie, thanks buddy. So, uh.

• 1:08:55Billy Corgan?

  So it was nothing like they were trying to replace you or?

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  No, Oz was just writing with other people because I was out, you know, you're out doing Smashing Pumpkins, you know? It's just like, while Billy's out doing this, I'll work with other people.

• 1:09:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I'm just trying to understand some of this, it just doesn't seem to be good information. I mean, I see the things where it was like, and it sounds like Ozzy kind of half joking, like he was turning my band into Black Label Society or, you know?

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 1:09:16Billy Corgan?

  It doesn't sound credible to me, but I'm asking you.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  Put it this way, I mean, like everyone always asks, my relationship with Ozzy and mom, you know, I lovingly always refer to her as mom because she's been like my mother since I've been 19, 20 years old, you know, so, uh. But no, and Oz has been like, like, you know, I always said I had the two coolest guys growing up between my father, who was a World War II vet, D-Day, Omar Beach and Ozzy. So I could always ask them for, Oz is like an older brother, you know what I mean? Like, he's like 20 years older than me, so, and the way my kids are, our oldest son to our youngest son. So, but it's just like, so I could always ask those two for advice on anything and they would always just go, come here, come here. I go, yeah?

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  Then they would just poke me in the eye and I go, why did you do that? And they go. Just because.

• 1:10:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:09Speaker 01

  You know, so, but anyways, that would be the advice. So I really didn't learn anything, but you know, so but that's what it would be. But, but the whole thing is, uh, no, my relationship with Oz and, and Sharon is, it's always been to this day. Like when we text him or talk with him or get together, it's just like if they said, Oz was like, Zach, do me a favor. Can you come over and clean the house and clean the dog run? Me and Sharon had to go do a business meeting and we're having company come over tonight. It's like Oz, no problem. I would just go do it.

• 1:10:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  You know, like you would for your parents.

• 1:10:41Billy Corgan?

  It's more like family.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, without a doubt. So Oz, if he needs me to play on something, I play on it.

• 1:10:45Billy Corgan?

  But what was the professional circumstance at all? Because, because that, wait, so you, you were writing hits with them, right?

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, when we did No More Tears and obviously No Rest. But like, I think when I started doing, uh, you know, with, with Black Label, as it just started going along. Oz was just like, well, Zach's got his own, Zach's his own guy now. So he was just like.

• 1:11:07Billy Corgan?

  Did he almost kind of want you to graduate into your own life?

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just like Zach's out of the nest now. He's just like, I don't want to be the lead singer in Black Label side. And, and I don't take offense to that because if, if Randy would have went on to keep doing Quiet Riot, he would have been like, I don't want to be the lead singer in Quiet Riot now. Even though Randy's coming back and playing a new riff called I Don't Know.

• 1:11:28Billy Corgan?

  Is it because he wants complete focus on what he's doing?

• 1:11:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, or, or just like, it, it is what it is. And if Jake went on and he was doing Badlands and continued doing Badlands and then coming back, he would have said, I, it's like I'm the lead singer in Badlands now, you know? Even though Jake's coming in with the, with this riff called Bark at the Moon. And it's like, Oz, the minute you sing on it, it's new Ozzy.

• 1:11:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And it's just like, like, I mean, especially with, with me, I mean, the, in the Black Label soup, you're always tasting, being that I'm a, I'm a graduate of Lord Iommi University, as you are, and Jerry Cantrell and all of us. I mean, Kim Thale and Chris, like, we all are disciples of Lord Iommi and his writing.

• 1:12:11Billy Corgan?

  Totally.

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  So the whole thing is, it's just, uh. It's gonna be in there, in the soup somewhere, so, but it's just like, when I'm jamming something, you know, whether, it's just like, soon as Ozzy would sing on, if Ozzy sang on Stillborn, which he did in the chorus, but if Ozzy sang the whole song, that's a new Ozzy song. If Ozzy sang on The Gallows.

• 1:12:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  The brand new one.

• 1:12:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:34Speaker 01

  That's a new Ozzy song.

• 1:12:35Billy Corgan?

  That kind of a cool Sabbath-y.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  Of course, there's Sabbath floating around in there all the time, and there always will be, because that's what, that's the flavor that I like.

• 1:12:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm just saying, but it's just like, uh, but yeah, so, but I think, I completely understand what Ozzy's saying in that regard. He's just like, I don't wanna be the lead singer in Quiet Riot or Badlands.

• 1:12:57Billy Corgan?

  Do they sit you down and say, "We love you, do your thing and we're here for you," or is it like, you get a call?

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  No, he did. He sat me down, just like we're sitting right now, and he said, "Zach, sit down for a second." Come here. I said, "Yeah." He poked me in the eye, he goes, "I'll go make me a ham sandwich," and I go, "Go light on," and I was like, "Does I go light on the mustard?" Coleman's though, always Coleman's.

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  No, but so, so, yeah, but he would be saying the same thing to you. It's just like, everything sounds like Smashing Pumpkins now.

• 1:13:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  You know, when you're like, "Zach," you would go, "Listen to this riff." I go, "What do you think?" And I go, "There's a lot of Sabbath floating around in that meal," you know what I mean?

• 1:13:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  And you'd go, "I know," and Ozzy's just telling me it sounds like Smashing Pumpkins.

• 1:13:40Billy Corgan?

  I get you.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  I go, "Well," you know what I mean?

• 1:13:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  And it's the same thing, if Father Cantrell, Jerry was playing a riff, he would go, "It sounds, I don't wanna be the lead singer on Alice in Chains." And I completely get it, man.

• 1:13:50Billy Corgan?

  You know, when you, when you left, it was ninety-five, six, somewhere in there?

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, ninety-six.

• 1:13:56Billy Corgan?

  So, it's a little bit blurry in my mind, because that's when we were touring like crazy. You know how it is, it's like, stuff happens and you hear about it, but it's like, it doesn't process the same as if you were sitting at home and watching an MTV News or something, right?

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  No, I mean, at that point, when, that's when Joe Holmes, I'm friends with Joe Holmes. Joe's an amazing player, and, uh... That's when they got Joe to come in because I was playing with G and R at the time as well. In between all the.

• 1:14:22Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  Osmosis and then coming back, I remember, uh, cause Slash, they were talking about, I think Gilby had left the band. And, uh, so Axel was like, well, who are we gonna get on guitar? And.

• 1:14:36Billy Corgan?

  I didn't even know that part.

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  I guess Slash just threw around, he's like, well, you know, my name came in the mix or whatever. And Axel goes, you know, I'll just, I'll reach out to Zach. I never spoke to Axel before. So, uh, but I.

• 1:14:48Billy Corgan?

  I wonder that going for.

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  Well, I knew, I knew Slash when I first joined Ozzy, you know, that's when Guns was blowing up. And then, uh, and I knew Steven and, uh, and then I had, obviously I knew Matt from when he was with the Colt. You know, from when Firewoman and all that stuff. So, cause he was good buddies with Randy Castillo. So, you know, and once again, we all, everybody kinda knows each other. And they're all, we're all friends. So, but Slash, you know, so it's like, well, why don't we ask Zach if he wants to do it or whatever. And so they, Axel called me up. He was like, Zach, you wanna get together and jam? I was like, alright, well, yeah, we'll, we'll see what happens, right?

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  So I remember they had a rehearsal joint all set up and I remember, uh, it was me, Matt, Dizzy was throwing down on the keys. And then you had, uh, you had Slash and Duff and, uh, you know, I mean, Matt and, and myself and Axel. And so we were down there jamming and noodling ideas and then we recorded a couple of riffs. I think like Rose Pedal Garden and it ended up on the first Black Label album. But it was just like, we had some riffs laying around, but it's just like, nothing was kinda materializing with it. And then it was just like, I remember, uh, Oz was like, Zach, are you gonna do this thing with the fellas? Or are we doing this thing?

• 1:16:09Billy Corgan?

  I see, I see, yeah.

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  And then I was like, Oz, let me call up and see if I can get an answer from the guys. Cause I don't know either. Cause I'm just sitting, you know, like I, I can't tell you yes or no. Because I don't know what's going on with the guys. So it was just like, uh, you know, it was nothing, it was just kinda going on and I, nothing was happening. So I remember Oz was just, you know, getting ready to release the Osmosis album and getting ready to tour. And, and Oz was just like, Zach, sit down.

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  Yes, come here, a little closer. And so, he poked me in the eyes again. He goes, "Zach, you make me a ham sandwich. I'm gonna get Joe Holmes to come play for a little while and then we'll see where it happens from there." Sure. But yeah, that's how it kinda, that's what happened. Yeah. And then, so, nothing, and then I was kinda like, "Well, Bill, what am I gonna do?" There's, then the Guns N' Roses thing wasn't happening, I'm not playing with the boss anymore. Sure. I'm like, "Well, I better figure something out." Yeah. And, you know, I just released Book of Shadows, which I loved doing, because when we were doing Osmosis, there was this place called Brew's, 34th and Lexington. It was just, like, probably been there from 1908.

• 1:17:15Speaker 01

  So I would go, after we got done tracking everything, I'd go into Brew's and just lit, they had an amazing jukebox in there. I'd be, I'd just be drinking till like 6:00 in the morning every night, at the bar, just me and you solving the problems of the world, hanging out, and the jukebox, they had the Stones in there, Bob Seger, Neil Young,

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  just like, all this Eagles, all this amazing, you know, just all acoustic, mellow, amazing stuff. So I'd be listening to that all night long. Yeah. And I remember just going back into my room, my acoustic, and just writing. And then, so I had all that stuff, and then I, that's when I did the Book of Shadows thing after Osmosis. Right. There's a short tour behind that, and then like, after we got done with that, I was like, "What am I gonna do? I'm not ready to be James Taylor, like a singer-songwriter." Right. Yeah, I, I still wanna play heavy stuff. So, that's pretty much out of, you know, being in the middle of the Atlantic with one oar. I'm like, "Bill, do you see any land?" You're like, "No, but we better start rowing."

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  Did you, you know, you know this- "We're gonna die out here." No, there are no options. You better, there was, there were, I never thought to myself- Like with Ozzy with with Sabbath. Well, I guess the dream is over. It was just like, no. I'm not gonna go back to having some crummy job that I can't stand. So it was just like. We are gonna find land. And that's it, or we're gonna die out here.

• 1:18:40Billy Corgan?

  You know how this town can be, though? Did you kind of feel that cold wind that blows sometimes when people think, you know? You know, when you're with Ozzy, that's a big gig.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Well, that's that's the the secure the the security blanket of having your mom and dad's house. And now you're you don't have that security.

• 1:18:57Billy Corgan?

  Did you see people change the way they were acting around you? Do you feel that?

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  No, I I mean, if anything, it's, you know, you have, it's like, wow, this is. This is kind of exciting because we have our own apartment now. You know what I mean? And now, and me and, yeah, me and you were gonna start our own little coffee shop. And we're gonna start our own business. From being, you know, me and you working at McDonald's. And now we're gonna start our own little burger stand.

• 1:19:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I think what's so cool is.

• 1:19:23Billy Corgan?

  Because like I said, it's it's fuzzy in my mind, but I remember hearing that you'd left. And and then at some point that you were starting Black Label. And I think what's so cool is. You did it the hard way. You you took it to the fans. You built that thing up.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  Well, I remember, I remember taking the merch, printing the merch ourself. And then taking all the merch orders and I remember writing a thank you letter. And then putting it in the manila envelopes. And me and you bringing them down to the post office and mailing out these Black Label Smash and Pumpkin T-shirts. With thank you letters on them. But but so it it went from, like you said, playing with Ozzy to arenas and stadiums and festivals or whatever. To now me and you were playing in clubs. With like five people in there that don't even.

• 1:20:09Billy Corgan?

  And you're married and you got kids, so it's part of the dynamic.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, so what I'm just saying is. And you know, and I always tell all kids, I go. You know, whether somebody's like, you have advice for my son or daughter, you know, because I go. Yeah, just play what you love. And there are no options. There are no other eggs in your basket. Because if you know you have eggs in your basket, then you're not gonna. If you're out in the middle of the Atlantic. And we just got a boat and we got oars. I'm like, Bill, we're either gonna die out here. Do you see any land anywhere? You're like, Zach, I don't see anything.

• 1:20:43Billy Corgan?

  There's no, there's no arenas in the middle of the ocean.

• 1:20:45Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying, we better start rowing.

• 1:20:50Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 1:20:52Billy Corgan?

  In your mind's eye, because you've, you know, from my perspective, everything you've touched has been successful. I think it's a testament to your talent.

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  Oh, I, you know, I mean, I'm just saying, I think if anything, you know, just like, well, you know, you got it, it's just, everything in life is based, and when I look at my father, him being an orphan, and then went straight to World War II, then, I remember his first wife, Marilyn, died. I remember my grandmother and my aunt in Asbury Park. That was from my dad's first wife, who died of cancer. So he remarried my mother and had me and my sister.

• 1:21:34Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:21:34Speaker 01

  But they were our grandmother and aunt, and that was my dad's first wife, like, his, her mother.

• 1:21:39Billy Corgan?

  I see, I see.

• 1:21:40Speaker 01

  So, he went over there every weekend, changed the light bulbs, cleaned the, cleaned the apartment. He never lost touch with them.

• 1:21:48Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  And then, well, no, then after my mother dying, and my dad, just, everything is based, for me, on strength, toughness, and perseverance. You've just gotta have that.

• 1:22:08Billy Corgan?

  I get it, I get it.

• 1:22:09Speaker 01

  You have to.

• 1:22:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that's what I'm trying to convey to you, you know, brother to brother, you know. I really respect that you took a situation that would, in many ways, throw people off. You went right back at it. You worked.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you have to.

• 1:22:24Billy Corgan?

  And you built this thing with your own hands. And I just think it's so awesome. Because most people, they just don't have that inner strength to do that.

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Well, I, but I, like I said, I mean, like, I love doing everything that I'm truly by, I thank the good Lord every day for everything I have. And being on this ultimate podcast as well. So, I mean, but, no, and the same thing with...

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  Even with the Ultimate Warrior, I mean, the reason why I always dug him so much even when it just because of his, his, the app, I mean, and all his quotes that he has all the time as well. You just have no belief in what others say about you or anything, just, it's just, everything is just brute force.

• 1:23:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. You know?

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, without a doubt. So it's just like, you're gonna have the compassion of Jesus Christ and the brute force of the Ultimate Warrior, Dick Butkus and Genghis Khan, as far as the determination and the work ethic. It just, you just, there is no, you think we're gonna, it's no, you just do it.

• 1:23:21Billy Corgan?

  Have you ever heard the story where Warrior asked Vince McMahon for a quarter million dollars or he wasn't gonna go through the curtain?

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  What was it, the Summer Slam or what was it? Yeah.

• 1:23:31Billy Corgan?

  I heard that story from Sergeant Slaughter. Amazing story.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  Well, Sergeant Slaughter's really not a big fan of the Warrior. He's the ultimate puke to him. So, you know.

• 1:23:41Billy Corgan?

  Did you ever meet Sergeant Slaughter?

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  I've never met him.

• 1:23:45Billy Corgan?

  He's great. Great. Amazing.

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  No, I'm sure all the guys are great, but I mean, we know all the politics that goes on with all that stuff. I mean, that's, that's a whole nother world of insanity.

• 1:23:54Billy Corgan?

  Well, I think you know, I live it every day in the National Wrestling Alliance.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  And yeah, you own a wrestling.

• 1:23:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  And by the way, Bubba Dudley always says amazing things about you.

• 1:24:03Billy Corgan?

  I love, I love Bubba.

• 1:24:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, without a doubt.

• 1:24:05Billy Corgan?

  Bubba tells a story, the first time he saw me in ECW locker room, because Justin Credible had brought me in there.

• 1:24:11Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:24:12Billy Corgan?

  You know, where we were talking about locker rooms. Now I'm in the ECW locker room. And Bubba squares, squares me up, squares me up from across the locker room and he's thinking, who the hell is this person in my locker room? And he's about ready to come over and kill me. And somebody says, you know, that's the.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  It's gonna be your future boss right now.

• 1:24:29Billy Corgan?

  Who's that? Who's that? I can't do the Bubba, but.

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 1:24:33Billy Corgan?

  Last thing, thank you for indulging me.

• 1:24:36Billy Corgan?

  First of all, because I've seen you play live and even I was watching some clips in anticipation for an interview. I don't know how you play so aggressively and so clean. It blows my mind. I've never seen anyone with your level of attack. And you, but you play flawlessly. I don't get it.

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  I don't know if it's so flawlessly, but you can always get better.

• 1:24:59Billy Corgan?

  I'll put it this way. I wish I could play like you.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  All right, well.

• 1:25:03Billy Corgan?

  I really mean that.

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  I'm sure JD, who's on our band, I've known JD since we were seventeen, would go, "Bill, let's rethink that one." He goes, "Stick with Smashing Pumpkins. Let's just do that."

• 1:25:13Billy Corgan?

  I'm gonna go to the videotape. I'm gonna slow it down and see if you missed one.

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  JD would go with Smashing Pumpkins.

• 1:25:19Billy Corgan?

  Like I play a lot of hammer-ons, you know. I don't know where that came from. Maybe just laziness. But you know, you're very, like you said, you pick every note. And to me, I mean, I watch you play for an hour and it's like, what does he mess up? I don't see it.

• 1:25:33Speaker 01

  No, there's definitely clankers in there.

• 1:25:35Billy Corgan?

  Maybe there's a lot of delay or something. One thing I thought, just poking around, because I want to know what your future plans are. I mean, obviously you have your band, but have you ever thought doing like the kind of the All-Star records? Not the best, but it's like you get to get your friends together.

• 1:25:54Speaker 01

  Tons of guests and stuff. I heard you're traveling Wilburys.

• 1:25:56Billy Corgan?

  Well, you did the record that Andrew Watt did with Ozzy, you know. You were on that. Tony's on that.

• 1:26:02Speaker 01

  Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck was on that thing.

• 1:26:04Billy Corgan?

  Pretty good record, you know. There's a lot of cool stuff on there. But I was just wondering from your perspective, because I thought it'd be interesting to hear you. I'm not saying like Carlos Santana, but you know, you did that record. But I think it'd be interesting if there was a record built around your guitar playing, but that showed different modalities of your guitar playing. Because I saw an interview recently, and it was before I knew I was gonna interview you, where you were talking about Joe Pass and people you really...

• 1:26:29Speaker 01

  Pat Martino, yeah.

• 1:26:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, so I was like, it would surprise me.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, with Neil Geraldo.

• 1:26:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I was like... You know, it's like, most metal guys don't name check Joe Pass, you know what I mean?

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:39Billy Corgan?

  So that told me as a fellow guitar player, like, oh, this guy's really studying the game, you know? Because a lot of metal guys, they're really one lane guys, and you know them, they're your friends.

• 1:26:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, but...

• 1:26:48Billy Corgan?

  Nothing wrong with it.

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  No, no, I agree. I mean, it's different, it's whatever you're into. You know, it's so funny, like, we were talking about, like, you know, whether you like different musics. We just happen to like, I love yacht rock, I love Christopher Cross, I'll listen to everything like that.

• 1:27:02Billy Corgan?

  Christopher Cross is your secret?

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  He's amazing, you know what I mean? Yeah, totally. Actually, Steve, look, Luke's out with him right now. I mean, Christopher Cross and Toto, right? So, no, but it's just, I love that, like, all the new wave essentials, whether it's Howard Jones and Gary Newman and all that stuff.

• 1:27:17Billy Corgan?

  Did you ever see Howard Jones when he had a mime?

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  No, I never saw that.

• 1:27:20Billy Corgan?

  Check that clip out. He's on American Bandstand, I think.

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:27:25Billy Corgan?

  It's when he's blowing up.

• 1:27:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:27:27Billy Corgan?

  And there's that song, "What is love..."

• 1:27:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally, which is a huge hit.

• 1:27:30Billy Corgan?

  So, Dick Clark's interviewing him, and he goes, "So who's the other fella?" And he's like, "Well, you know, it gets a little boring with me just playing keyboards and singing, so I brought this mime." And he literally has a mime when he's singing the fucking song, dude.

• 1:27:46Speaker 01

  That is so great.

• 1:27:47Billy Corgan?

  You want to, you want to put some, some zip in your coffee. I mean, that's, that is some other shit.

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  I'll have to check that out.

• 1:27:53Billy Corgan?

  See? I got my new wave knowledge.

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, without a doubt, but I mean, it's just like, I love, I love all of it. So, I mean, it's just like, I remember reading this one quote with Johnny Winter, and they said, "Well, Johnny, have you ever listened to it?" He goes, "No," he goes, "The only, like, I tell younger kids, you know, like, Zach, you got any advice for my son or my daughter?" I'm like, "Whatever music it is that moves you," because I, I go, "If that, if it moves you, then that's..."

• 1:28:21Billy Corgan?

  That's good music.

• 1:28:21Speaker 01

  And you can feel it, then that's what you should be doing.

• 1:28:24Billy Corgan?

  I just, I just would like to hear you, it's, I love your playing, I listen to you play all day. But it would be interesting to hear you put into different contexts.

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I think what you're saying, like, different, different types of things, but I mean, it's just like, but it is, it is true. I mean, like, talking about...

• 1:28:42Billy Corgan?

  Like you with Jerry Cantrell would be amazing.

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  I dig it, yeah.

• 1:28:45Billy Corgan?

  Jerry, great writer.

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, Jerry's amazing.

• 1:28:47Billy Corgan?

  You know how to write. Like you two together, that'd be cool. You with Chino Moreno of Deftones. You know what I mean?

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  I dig it.

• 1:28:53Billy Corgan?

  Chino's got such a cool voice to be interesting to hear.

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, with all different, you know, like you said, traveling wheelberries are doing, or yourself, get yourself in this thing. You know, maybe we'll have to, we'll have to put this thing together.

• 1:29:02Billy Corgan?

  There you go. If we ruled the world.

• 1:29:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:29:04Billy Corgan?

  That's a great place to, thank you, Zach.

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  All right, man. Appreciate it, Val the Bill. Thank you very much, buddy.