Gilles Mendel | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Join Billy Corgan for an intimate, funny, and surprisingly revealing conversation with legendary designer Gilles Mendel—founder of J. Mendel and House of Gilles, and yes, Billy’s father-in-law. Gilles traces his journey from postwar Paris and a fifth-generation fashion legacy to haute couture, dressing icons like Sarah Jessica Parker, Michelle Obama, and Taylor Swift—while pulling back the curtain on fashion’s punishing, nonstop grind. He relives his surreal 1980s New York run-ins with Andy Warhol and Keith Haring and tells the hilarious moment he discovered who his daughter was dating (including a panic-fueled Google deep dive). He breaks down why true bespoke couture still matters in the age of fast fashion—and what it really takes to make a custom gown: 2–3 months, countless hours, and borderline obsession. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  You don't have to be experienced in fashion to feel what's, you know, the electricity, the magic of the place when you come to us.

• 0:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 0:39Speaker 01

  Because you see it. You know, beauty is beauty.

• 0:41Billy Corgan?

  The fashion business is very punishing. It's relentless.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  Yes, definitely. No, it's really, really hard.

• 0:47Billy Corgan?

  So around 2012, I show up in your life.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  Yes, I remember that.

• 0:52Billy Corgan?

  So let's talk about that.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  What is my daughter doing? I cannot believe it, you know? I started to look in the internet who you were. And that became even worse.

• 1:04Billy Corgan?

  Gilles Mendel, welcome to The Magnificent Others. So, full disclosure, you are my father-in-law. So we have to get that out of the way first. How do you feel about that? No, just wait, we'll get to that.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:21Billy Corgan?

  Sarah Jessica Parker, Taylor Swift, J-Lo, Celine Dion, Michelle Obama, Melania Trump, Nancy Reagan, Liza Minnelli, Anna Kendrick, Heidi Klum, Claire Danes, Scarlett Johansson, Kerry Washington, Sandra Bullock. These are just some of the beautiful women that you've dressed through the years, being in the fashion business.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's been quite an incredible experience, I have to say. You know, I mean, it's just, I can't believe, in fact. I'm happy you did, you gave that list because I was afraid you were going to ask me, who did I dress? I would have never got to that point.

• 1:55Billy Corgan?

  Did I leave anyone out of the list?

• 1:58Speaker 01

  Anna Kendrick's, Nicole Kidman.

• 2:01Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  Ha. You know, but no, but more or less, I mean, yeah, there's so many through the years.

• 2:07Billy Corgan?

  So, but I felt like we needed to start there because they were family, but also be people that wouldn't necessarily, if they know you're a fashion designer, they wouldn't necessarily know the arc of accomplishment. As you know, in American culture, you're judged by the level of celebrity that you reach and.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, I mean, as I said, it's quite, it's quite an experience. I have to say, I just saw recently, you know, a documentary on Ferragamo, you know, the shoemaker. And he was talking, I mean, the experience was the same, you know, from the love of a product, the love of making something beautiful, from the understanding, he came to America, you know, and he developed, he basically dressed all these big celebrities as well. And it was the same principles, you know, the principle of loving the making, the making the product, you know, the, the respect of the material. I mean, this whole love into the artisany, which is basically where I come from, you know, this, this mastery of artisans that proud of their work. I mean, this is like what the fire was behind my experiences.

• 3:08Billy Corgan?

  So the, my aspiration in interviewing you and the reason I asked you is because most people really don't understand the fashion business. I mean, they have a sort of celebrity tinged chew of what it's like, but obviously because we've been family for many years now, I have an insider view and I realize in talking to people in my life, most people really don't understand the grind of the fashion business and the,

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:34Billy Corgan?

  and it starts with the love, but we'll get there for a second, but I want to get into your background a bit, if you don't mind. So you were born in post-war France, nineteen fifty-five?

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:44Billy Corgan?

  Five one fifty-five, that?

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:47Billy Corgan?

  Lucky, lucky numbers, right?

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:49Billy Corgan?

  Well, what are your memories of, of, of post-war France? Because Paris obviously famously was not bombed.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  No, I mean, you know, I mean, I grew up, you know, in a, in a, in a, in a, I mean, my, I grew up in an area in Paris called Neige, you know, which is a little wood of Boulogne. In fact, I was born in the American Hospital in Paris.

• 4:10Billy Corgan?

  Oh, really?

• 4:11Speaker 01

  The American Hospital, who do know that.

• 4:13Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know that. Here we are.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Here I am, you know, in America. I mean, you know, I grew up surrounded by, obviously, my parents that were had, you know, such tremendous experience with the war and so on. So it was, they, during my whole youth, they tried not to, to, to, to impose in me, you know, their, what they went through. Even my religious, I have not been religiously educated in any way, you know, it was very free. Because they really suffered enormously. My mom went, you know, to a terrible concentration camp. I just read recently that, you know, in Drancy, where she was staying, where she stood during the war, seventy thousand people went in and only two thousand went out, and she was one of them.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  So it's like incredible. And, you know, to date, unfortunately, she passed away, but till the last moment, she really never really wanted to talk about it. I mean, it was such a trauma. I mean, you could imagine, it's, it's, just can't imagine.

• 5:08Billy Corgan?

  I can't, I think that's what, it's almost unimaginable.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Inimaginable.

• 5:11Billy Corgan?

  What people went through.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Incredible. And my dad, the same thing, you know, from, you know, his, his story is incredible. This man was a man of multi-talented, but, you know, he was, he grew up as a furrier because he was, you know, in, in the Jewish family, the first son, the first boy, you know, because he tries to become a doctor, they tried to give him an education. The second, my dad had to go and work with the family. That's how it is. So from the age of six, seven years old, he was already starting to work and help, you know, the mother and, and my grandfather, you know, as a furrier, you know, to do things. And so he, during the war, which is crazy, if you think of it, you know, he, I mean, first of all, should I talk about that for a minute?

• 5:54Billy Corgan?

  It's, it's, it's right here. I want you to talk about it. So you, you're doing it for me, yeah?

• 5:58Speaker 01

  Okay. I mean, it's insane. I mean, this is a man who was barely educated for a long time. He was really purely educated as a master furrier. I mean, he, he learned from my grandfather, you know, the trade and so on. But when he was in his twenties. You would think that how do you, how do you, you know, the war started and you know, what makes you fight and become a part of the Resistance? You would think, well, in his, he wrote a book, my dad, after a while and you know, and in his book, he says that basically the story was that he fell in love with a girl, you know, and that girl happened to be in the Resistance. And the next day, you know, he wanted somebody to date her that she took him one day and he said, okay, come over, we have something, we're gonna go and bomb a bridge.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  And he was suddenly in a car with a grenade between his legs, going, you know, to bomb the bridge where the Germans were coming. And that's how he started the war. Then the Germans, you know, you know, obviously after that, the Gestapo, you know, were searching for him. And he went for one year in the south of France, hidden in a little farm, where he couldn't get out, he had to hide because, you know, they were looking for him. So the only time he could get out, maybe it's at night time a little bit, but anyway. So he started to read and he read everything he could find, right? So, and till that moment, since I know my dad, till his last breath, he would send me first, you know, faxes before the emails, but he would send me faxes and stories and he could never talk to me without poetry. He would write, it was always beautiful.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  He would even say to me, Gilles, maybe today you should do this, you know, in work or you should, you know, I advise you to do that. Then he would come with maybe a poem from Baudelaire or something. He would come out with, it was insane. You know, the man was kind of, kind of, kind of a special guy.

• 7:41Billy Corgan?

  Is it true he was decorated after the war by Mitterrand and?

• 7:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, he got a.

• 7:45Billy Corgan?

  A resistance fighter.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  He got a medal, yes, he was decorated and yeah, but you know.

• 7:52Billy Corgan?

  And talk a little bit about how your parents met because it's this unlikely sort of meeting.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  I mean, the, I mean, how they met, I, I'm not sure. I mean, they met through family, you know, it's in those days, you know, my mother had many brothers and you know, they had, when you had to meet, if you met some, my dad, in order to meet her, had to meet all the brothers, she couldn't go out without the six brothers behind her going. Well, they met in Paris, I mean, that's where they met. And during the war, after the war, they just met right after the war. But nothing, I don't think there was anything particularly.

• 8:25Billy Corgan?

  I thought your daughter had told me a story that involves something a little bit more poetic, like a movie, like a movie scene.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  Oh, really? No, I don't recall that, no.

• 8:35Billy Corgan?

  Well, we blame her for giving me the wrong information.

• 8:40Billy Corgan?

  So

• 8:43Billy Corgan?

  you're the fifth generation of your family

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:45Billy Corgan?

  that entered what we would loosely call the fashion business, but it was really the furrier business.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you know, from, you know, eighteen seventy, you know, in Lenin, I mean, from Nicholas Second, where I'm sure they had, you know, the Jews, where, as you know, during that time in the, in the, in the late nineteenth century,

• 9:06Speaker 01

  you know, they were kind of segregated in some areas of Russia. I mean, it was, you know, I think it was called the Pelsete settlement. You know, it was an area between Belarus and Ukraine. And, you know, there was an area where they could live. And if they had special skill of some sort, you know, you would be able to go to and go to Russia, go to Leningrad and eventually, you know, do things like my grand, my great grandfather was doing, you know, for the czar. He could make fur. He could do, you know, he had this extraordinary talent and artistry. He brought to, to there, you know, the knowledge of making of all the, the making of the fur, the artisany. He had, his technical skill were very high. And I think that's why, because of his skill, he was able, you know, to start.

• 9:52Billy Corgan?

  Can you, can you define what that skill would have been in the, in the, in the late eighteen hundreds? What?

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Oh, well, the skill was really, I mean, you know, I mean, it's to make a fur coat, if you think of it, you know, it's very, very complicated and very artistic effort because, you know, I don't want to be too, too, too literal, but you know, there's a lot of cutting, a lot of symmetrical thing. You have to understand, an animal doesn't have, you know, the same character from the neck to the bottom of his, you know, the skin has a, the hair has a different. So in order to make a garment very uniform, you have to really understand the leather, on the leather side, how to cut the skins to make it right. So there is a huge, huge amount of technical

• 10:35Speaker 01

  knowledge that in those days, you know, was required. And my grand, my great grandfather, you know, you know, got this from your, from, from his trade. I mean, the Jewish people, you know, I think the fur trade was, comes from hundreds and hundreds of years, you know, so it's, I think he was highly skilled. He was extremely skilled. And when he came, when my grandfather, you know, left after the revolution, you know, this Russian area and came to France.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  He brought with him this, you know, this, his knowledge, his technical knowledge. And that's how he started to build something in Paris.

• 11:12Billy Corgan?

  What um.

• 11:15Billy Corgan?

  What economic situation were your parents in when you were young? You know, were they poor or were they sort of middle class or?

• 11:23Speaker 01

  They were, no, they were a little bit, they were middle class, maybe a little bit better than middle class. I mean, you know, my, but you know, my father would come home at night and continue to do his work, watching television, you know, at home on front of the TV. But still trying to make up a little bit so he could the next day have already advanced his work. He had an atelier originally when, when, when I was little, my dad had a beautiful little shop. But you know, with an atelier with one sewer and he was making, I mean, those days there was maybe four or five styles. You know, that he would offer to the clients and they were all bespoke pieces. Basically, every time somebody would come, he would make them for.

• 12:01Billy Corgan?

  A custom one off, yeah.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  And you know, it's um, it's, but from him I learned. And when I was little, you know, I was, I would go to the workshop and I, you know, smelled, you know, the workshop and all this, the noise of the machine. And I would look at this man who was very handsome with, you know, long hands, a little diamond, a diamond ring. And he would be, I would look at him nailing the skins on a board. And you know, it would be like looking at the architecture of Versailles, the gardens of Versailles. You know, all these skins were laid out on the board and he had like all nails and a, and a tool that maybe belonged to his father. Fem or tool to, you know, and he would do nail by nail, you know, stretching the skin, welding the skin, stretching the skin on a board.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  And at the end, it would be immaculate. It was like, I mean, as I said, like a plan of Paris. You know, it was very beautiful. So, I mean, I saw him and I saw him doing that for many years. Till one day.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  He moved to Rue Saint-Honorat in Paris. And in, you know, it was a time, my mother was very, very, very visionary. And she knew that this man was so talented, he needed to be more exposed to, to the world of fashion and so on. And Rue Saint-Honorat was the street, and is still the street in Paris to be in.

• 13:19Billy Corgan?

  So it was your mother that sort of pushed?

• 13:21Speaker 01

  My mother, yes, she was the one who really put, my dad would have stayed where he was, he was very happy.

• 13:26Billy Corgan?

  Was her vision that he could sort of elevate himself in the fashion?

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:30Billy Corgan?

  Folk world and?

• 13:32Speaker 01

  You know, it's, I don't think up to that time, there was, you talking so much, I mean, there is fashion, I think I have been more the one who brought more even this idea of fashion to the world, I mean, to, that embrace more the fashion element. My dad looked at himself like, you know.

• 13:50Billy Corgan?

  Like a craftsman.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  A craftsman who was making unbelievable things, he didn't want, he didn't need to do quite it is, he didn't want to do anything that was beyond, you know, the artistry of his work, and he was very proud of it, and there was something, my mom was the one pushing and saying, we should try to do more, to be more involved, you know, you're so talented, you have so much to offer, why don't you give that, why don't you show that to more people?

• 14:12Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  And I was the instrument of that, basically, you know, when I, you know, when I decided to, to move into my family's world, in the, you know, in the work world, I, I basically, I'm the one who instigated, you know, this connection with designers, because my mother was basically this little bundle of beauty who was always constantly, you know, I would be one day in Paris, and she would arrive in a little Mini Cooper with, you know, a famous designer next to her, like Azin Aya, you know, and I had, she, she had many very famous designers around her that loved her, and it was not about

• 14:53Speaker 01

  the spending of the money, or it was more because she was very charismatic, she loved to dress.

• 14:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  And she really was so inspiring, and she is definitely one of my, my best inspiration.

• 15:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, when we were last in Paris, your daughter and I, we went to the Alaya Museum.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:10Billy Corgan?

  And she was talking about, imagine my grandmother used to come here.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, yeah, and I went, when I was little, she would take me to the atelier of, of Alaya, and, but she wasn't, yeah, she was incredible, she really introduced me to that, and you know, and when I was at that age. Younger, I would go to their atelier and that's how I discovered, in fact, completely fashion. Because I saw those designers in the, you know, and I saw their collections and I saw those assistants sketching for them. And I was looking at those fittings with clothes that felt like surreal to me. You know, so looking at my dad, who was making this most immaculate, beautiful product, but one of a kind every time.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  And seeing those guys, you know, exploring, you know, the infinity of beauty, really raised in my, I mean, definitely inspired me to.

• 16:00Billy Corgan?

  At that point in your life, like, let's say you're teens, you're late teens. Is your idea, you're gonna follow your father into the family trade or you're gonna do something different?

• 16:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I never really thought I would follow my family's, follow my father's, you know, steps and continue developing it. But I somehow, um, you know, I mean, you know, I, I did a business school. I was not too good in business school. I knew I'd cheat pretty well, so I mean.

• 16:27Billy Corgan?

  You were in business school and it just makes me laugh.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you very much. So, believe it or not, during that time, you know, I mean, I was trying to keep going by playing music. You know, I was, yeah, I had a band I was playing. I had a band called Silver Hill.

• 16:42Billy Corgan?

  Silver Hill.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Silver Hill. Ask me why, I have no idea. But anyway, I was trying to escape from school as much as I could, you know. So I traveled a lot while I was at school. I, you know, even traveled to Guatemala. I discovered.

• 16:54Billy Corgan?

  We're getting to Guatemala.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 16:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  But, you know, I did some, some travel, but when I came back to Paris and I tried to be a businessman, you know, my best friend had a, his dad was a very famous guy who was, you know, buying grains and selling grains, you know, all over the world and edging his buys at the Chicago trades, you know, world trade. I mean, anyway, I was doing all that and I said, Jill, what are you doing? I mean, this is not right. And I was always in, I mean, I drew always very well. I was very, that's something that I naturally had in, in me. And my mom was such an inspiration to me and you know, and by discovering those designers and so on, it really pushed me to say, you know what? I'm gonna try to take this little jewel box of my father and instead of saying that I'm coming in,

• 17:38Speaker 01

  I would have, because I knew right away that I could never be the master that he was. I mean, that mastery was impossible, but I could bring something he didn't have. So I said to, I used my mom's connections and I introduced the first few months when I decided to work with him. I said, look, I come in, but let me bring designs, let me bring a designer, a famous designer to do a collection with you. And maybe we'll go from there. So we had a, the first designer was Jean Charles de Castel Bajac, which is, you know, someone very renowned in France. And we did a collection, we did a runway show. And it went very well. My father was very happy. We got suddenly press all over the place. You know, we were in L'Officiel, Vogue, it was incredible.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  And then I said, what do I do? And you know, it's, I couldn't be in the shadow of this huge tree of my father. It was impossible. I could have never developed my, be myself. So for some reason, I decided out of the blue, without any kind of preparation, I said, I'm gonna go to America. I had a sketchbook of ideas that I wanted to design, you know, some, you know, I had some ideas, but I was not really totally prepared. So I'm gonna go to America and maybe I'm opening a store on Madison Avenue. Why not? You know, so I went on a tourist visa to, to, to, to, to New York. And I walked the streets of Madison up and down, you know, it was the, you know, early eighties.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Everybody at that time already, you had, you know, the, the, all the stores with all the first store disappeared at this point. In the early eighties in New York City, you know, you, you already had a lot of anti fur movements. You know, posters about, you know, I want to be naked and wearing fur and all these things. So it was not like too good. But anyway, I was, I so I realized very quickly that a store on Madison was not gonna happen because you had to have three, four hundred thousand dollars in those days, you know, to spend. It was already like kind of a million dollar that I didn't have. Neither my parents were gonna invest in this kid coming to New York after just few months having worked with my dad.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  And you know, I went on and on and on and you know, I realized and I said, okay, I'm gonna go to Bergdorf Goodman, you know, the store. I had, I happened to have, to be connected because some public relation in Paris that I knew said, why don't you go and see Don Mello, when the time was running Bergdorf Goodman. I showed my sketch and she very nicely politely said to me, you know, thank you, but you know, maybe go to the second floor, there is a fur department, it's Fendi. You could talk to the gentleman there and maybe, you know, so I went downstairs and gentleman very nicely say, yes, but thank you, but goodbye. So I was, I literally two, three days before I had to go back to Paris.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  I go to this restaurant, which was in the fur district in New York, which in those days was so colorful, a lot of little Jewish restaurants in corner streets and so on. And there was one called Traders and it was like a saloon, Billy. You know, you go in, you know, the doors would open like this, you go in and the women would passing by, you know, with you know, sandwich, pastrami sandwiches and gefilte fish and whatever. And I'm sitting there with the broker of my father who was buying the skins and I said, Albin, I'm going back with, you know, I can't find anything and in, and the man introduced me. He said, you know, I, I, let me talk, a gentleman passes by in front of the door, in front of us and said, you know, meet Jill and so on. And the man said to me, maybe you should go back up.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  There is a place called Elizabeth Arden on Fifth Avenue. And if you, this gentleman there, his name is Jerry Solovai. And if you go, you'll see on the second floor, they sell fashion. But the mannequins are a little bit like this, you know, they're not too, you know, it's not really doing so well. Maybe, maybe you never know, you go and talk to them. I'll go short. I went up there. I met Jerry Solovai. I saw this incredible second floor parlor room on Fifth Avenue, you know, I was like, I was shaking. And believe it or not, we connected. He took me to meet Jerry Sol, uh, Joe Ronchetti, the president of Elizabeth Arden in those days, a day later.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  And on a shake hand, I swear, on a shake hand, without contract, twenty percent on sales. He said to me, you can have a little room on the second floor in the parlor room. And we have thirteen locations all over America. If you like, you could travel and do your thing. And I became, you know, the Frenchman with his strong cases, meeting the who's who of America.

• 22:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  That's made me start what's going back to the beginning, how I got to.

• 22:23Billy Corgan?

  Let's, because we skipped over this one thing.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 22:25Billy Corgan?

  It's a very interesting story.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 22:27Billy Corgan?

  So talk about you, why did you decide to go to Guatemala somewhere in this? It's a little before this, but it's generally the same ti- time period.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:36Billy Corgan?

  Tell that story.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  Guatemala was a different story, you know, I mean, I wanted, I wanted to discover America. I wanted to go.

• 22:42Billy Corgan?

  Why Guatemala, like?

• 22:43Speaker 01

  Guatemala was purely because I wanted to go, the first trip I went in America, I went all the way to California, I remember. I thought I was gonna go to California, take Route sixty down the coast, get to and go to Mexico. I speak Spanish and I thought, Gil, are you gonna, let's go to Mexico, it's gonna be fun. It's, you know, I was still, you know, I, I travel in buses, you know, youth hostels, whatever. And when I went down to Mexico, I passed by Tijuana and I went back to Mexico. I got really, you know, scared. I thought, oh, this is not really for me, you know, the, the city was very crowded. The, everything was not my thing. And I said, you know, maybe I should continue. It's not too far. I'm gonna go to the next frontier, which is Guatemala.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  And I went literally out of the blue. I, I remember I crossed, I crossed the, the frontier by foot. I mean, to tell you how not prepared I had. I had just a little knapsack with my toothbrush, no camera, nothing, no drugs. You know, I was really completely in a mood of discovering something that I've never experienced in Europe. I don't even understand today how my parents let me do that. It was insane, because it was not a time of telephone, cell phones or anything.

• 23:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  And the moment I stepped in Guatemala in those days, for some reason, I felt totally at ease. The people were beautiful, the dress, they were dressed in those multi-colors pajama outfits, the bags, the banana bags in multi-colors. I loved it. And, you know, I, we went into buses that had another engine in the bus. And, you know, we would go in the jungle and I had these people sitting on. My knees with the chickens and but it was such an extraordinary experience and I was lucky. The reason I stayed there longer than expected was because I discovered on the lake of Atitlan in a volcano, there's a volcanic Atitlan volcanic area and there's a lake.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  And when I went, you know, it's beautiful area and I I met this chief of a tribe there and you know, right on the beach. And we became friends and he and he and he took me to all those little villages and and you know, the fact that I was not coming with cameras, I was not coming with kind of a, you know, I was not like a tourist, I was more, I wanted to blend. I was, I think I was searching for, you know, something and I found it there and it was, I loved it. I felt there was no more judgment. I was not the son of a furrier. I was not, you know. I was just an in person dealing with beautiful, loving, extraordinary people.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  And but my, my, my trip had to get cut short because I was, you know, mos- mosquitoes love me. And they completely, my feet were like completely destroyed by mosquito bites and you know, in the jungle, it gets very the humidity and so on, you cannot really, it goes getting infected, so I had to go back. And on my return, may I tell you a quick story?

• 25:40Billy Corgan?

  I want you to tell the whole arc of the story.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  On my return, I go back and I make a mistake. So I had to fly back to Guatemala City right away. I mean, my feet were impossible. And I, so I had to take a flight back and back to Paris. And on my return, I made a mistake or somehow I had to stop in Boston and I've never been to Boston. In fact, I've never been to Boston since. So to tell you, so I'm telling you a story that I remember from then. So I arrive at the, I arrive at the airport in Boston and it was nighttime. So I said, what do I do? I say, oh, I should go to see Cambridge University since I might fly the next flight to Paris with the following day at night. I had one day to kill. So I said, it was two A M. So I said, how do I go? Because Cambridge University reminded me of my university.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  You know, because I went to a business school, which was also kind of a tough school to get in, very similar campus, whatever. So I. I remember I took a train over the city. I arrived there and I fell asleep in the gar- in on the grass at four or five AM in the five AM, you know, I I didn't know where I was. And anyway, I was sitting Guatemala, literally curly hair up to my, you know, long curly hair. I had a banana bag from Guatemala. So I look and I was very dark. And I'm sleeping on the grass, you know, somewhere there. And there's a gentleman, an old man with a beard and a pipe pushed me, you know, he says, hey, where are you coming? Where are you coming from? And, you know, I look up and I said, well,

• 27:08Speaker 01

  I tell my story. And the man's happened to be an old teacher of Harvard, who, you know, kind of became friendly with me and said to me, well, how long have you been traveling? And I said, I've been traveling for the past three months. You know, have you read a paper recently? I said, no, in fact, you know, I've been a little bit out of everything for the past three months. Anyway, he took me to the library. He showed me the first Gutenberg book printed. It was, it was insane. And, you know, I spent the day with this gentleman. He gave me this whole tour of Harvard and went back to Paris. It was great.

• 27:44Billy Corgan?

  Beautiful story.

• 27:48Speaker 03

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• 28:16Billy Corgan?

  So

• 28:19Billy Corgan?

  you're in New York, you have this deal with Elizabeth Arden.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:24Billy Corgan?

  You're strictly focused on making furs because that's your

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Yes and no, because you know, the whole principle of the whole, my whole principle was at those days, you know, you had furriers, you know, the furriers is like you go to a store in those days and you had like fur coats. That was not my thing. Me, I wanted to show the artistry of making fur with fabric and transforming, really making more fashion out of it.

• 28:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  I was not searching just to do a fur coat. So my store was, you know, there was a lot of cashmere, there was a lot of fabric mix, you know, capes and so on. So when you came to my store at Elizabeth Arden, you felt like you were in a fashion salon, even though Primary list was fur, but you know, there was a lot of other things that matched together. And you know, so, yeah, when I started at Elizabeth Arden, that's how I presented myself and um, yeah.

• 29:15Billy Corgan?

  Uh, what was your impression of New York at that time? This is, this is late eighties or mid eighties?

• 29:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, early eighties, mid eighties. Uh, New York was extraordinary. It was fun. It was incredibly, you know, for me, it was such a extraordinary to experience, you know, the uptown, downtown mix. I was living, you know, I was in one hand, I would be making a coat for Brooke Astor. At the same time, I would be having dinner with Keith Haring downtown. I mean, something totally surreal.

• 29:44Billy Corgan?

  You were friends with Keith Haring and also you hung out in Warhol's circle.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. I mean, without knowing really where I was, I mean, that was beyond my education, you know. I think in those days, I was this little Jewish kid coming from Paris, you know, sheltered by my parents, even though I went to Guatemala. But, you know, when I, I remember, I always remember going to the factory and having lunch with uh, with Handy Warr. Who was, and those days I wanted to be in Interview Magazine and so on. And I remember my whole experience with him, I didn't understand a single word. You know, because he was mumbling, the way he was talking, and I couldn't understand anything. I think I left. I didn't know what happened, but I was watching around. It was fabulous. I saw how he was printing his, his work and it was, you know, but.

• 30:30Billy Corgan?

  I remember you telling me once that Keith Haring offered you a, a something of his and you turned him down.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I turned him down. I didn't know because, you know, there was a lot of people around him, around this crowd, there was a lot of people with taking advantage of his work, always. I always had a friend, you know, there was a lot of drugs, even though I was not into drugs, but you know, a lot of cocaine, a lot of in those days, it was, you know, people where the nightlife and the art world was mixed with the uptown world and it's it was interesting for that reason. At the same time, a lot of parasite around this artist and you know, and I you know, I had my thing. I was doing fashion. I was developing something I loved. And uh, I love to mingle with them, but you know, it's, I never really fully understood in those days the value of taking a piece of Keith Haring's work and so on, you know.

• 31:20Billy Corgan?

  Um, did you? Chart your success now that you're in this, you're immersed in this world. Like, did you feel you were successful right away? Did it take a while to find a clientele? Like, walk me through that a little bit.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a slow success, a slow growth. But Elizabeth Arden was such an extraordinary experience for me. Because imagine the Who's Who of America was going to Elizabeth Arden for their hair done. You know, there was a hair salon in every, you know, the people were, it was a beauty place. You know, you would go on the red door, the red door on Fifth Avenue. And the women were like pampered. So basically, you know, from the Marshall family, I mean, the names, you know, you gave me the list of all the celebrities, but you know, there's a lot of people who were not celebrities, but very well-known people in the world of politics and so on, who were, you know, going to Elizabeth Arden. So I had very quickly instant recognition and success.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Because I would travel to all these stores, you know, from rodeo drive to the best locations, you know, bring my trunk cases with my little cashmere trim coats and all that thing. And I was starting to dress really as a Who's Who of America. So basically, it's a growth went slowly, but enough to allow myself after a few years to open my, finally my store on Madison Avenue. So, you know, even though, and I have to say it's a record because if you think of it, I've been, I was, I think I stayed about 10 years at Elizabeth Arden. And there was really difficult years where fur was really, really hard. When, you know, nobody wanted to be associated with this idea of fur. I was in a cosmetic company who had so much sport to lose on me.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  And they kept me all along because I was successful. I was really doing well for them.

• 33:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  So it shows you that there was a good, there was a very good partnership.

• 33:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I think.

• 33:18Billy Corgan?

  Because, you know, fur is still a hot button topic. It's still being debated in American culture and you no longer are involved in fur.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  No.

• 33:26Billy Corgan?

  So I think people would need to know that because why we're talking so casually about it. It's not callous because I know one of the first discussions you and I ever had that had any depth about fashion was I wanted to understand you working in fur.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:39Billy Corgan?

  And that was sort of the end of it.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:41Billy Corgan?

  But I wanted you to talk a little bit about how you end up transitioning into dressmaking. Because as the story, as I remember it was, PETA kept attacking your storefront. And so you made a couple dresses just to put in the window to keep people from attacking your store.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, yeah, I mean, I was, the story is that when I opened Madison Avenue, my first boutique, finally, you know, even though I have to say, you know, having windows on Fifth Avenue at Elizabeth Thorne was quite something, you know, but when I, when I opened my first boutique, yes, everybody said, you're crazy, they're going to break your windows, you know, it's not going to last more than a week. So, yeah, the first thing I did, I, there was a little coffee shop next to my store called Viande, still there, little tiny place. I took a studio, a 200 square feet little studio above, put two machines and I started to make little dresses. So I said at nighttime, instead of leaving the furs, which are going to break the windows, I'll put a coat and a dress to match, a little matching thing and see what happens.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  And then the next day, the, you know, the, being on, in the 60s on Madison Avenue, you know, around there, there were ladies passing by and seeing my dresses and started to come in. So I said, wow, this is really amazing. I can really do, this is really working. And, you know, it created the attention of a lot of, a lot of people, inclusive Bergdorf Goodman, who, when they saw that, you know, I was moving on Madison Avenue and I was doing this fur trimmed pieces, cashmere coats with match, they came to me as well. And that's how I started even to open my own store at Bergdorf.

• 35:16Billy Corgan?

  Because it eventually intersects into how we know each other.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:20Billy Corgan?

  How did you fall in love with my wife's mother Jenny?

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Oh gee.

• 35:26Billy Corgan?

  But how did you guys meet? Because you know, as the story goes, my, my mother-in-law is a bit of a Taiwanese princess.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:35Billy Corgan?

  Who, you know, born in Taiwan, but end up living in, in, in Los Angeles. How did you and Jenny meet? Cause I, I actually don't know that story.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  You don't? Okay.

• 35:44Billy Corgan?

  Well, do you want to tell that story?

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean this, yeah, there was a, there was a club in New York called O Bar.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  On the uptown, like an uptown club, you know, and a friend of mine, you know, took me there one night and we were dancing and so on. I, I saw this beautiful, beautiful woman that was there, you know, beautiful little Chinese doll. She was gorgeous. And yeah, very simply, you know, we, I connected and for a while we, you know, we, we dated, but you know, there was nothing very serious. And one day I had a problem with my back and I had to have surgery of my lower back and I, you know, I didn't want to see anybody. I went to the hospital. I said the night before, I don't want to see anybody, you know, you don't want to be bothered and so on. And this woman out of the blue came, I remember like a Chinese delivery.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  She delivered to me at eight PM at night before, you know, food from the most delicious place in New York City. And I thought to myself, this is really something, someone amazing. She went through all these efforts even to do that. And I got in, I married her.

• 36:54Billy Corgan?

  So back to fashion.

• 36:58Billy Corgan?

  Obviously I get to see it behind the scenes a bit and I hear about it every day, which is a different thing. But talk a little bit about the date, cause I, I think coming in from the outside, not knowing much about fashion. I mean, I intersected with fashion houses through being famous in the nineties, but it was always kind of a show up and somebody lets you look around a bit kind of thing or gives you a coat, but. I think the most shocking thing for me coming in from the outside and basically marrying into a fashion dynasty

• 37:28Billy Corgan?

  is the day to day grind of the fashion business. So for people who don't know about the fashion business but are curious, talk a little bit about the day to day grind of what it is like, like the seasonal calendar, the

• 37:40Speaker 01

  I mean, fashion is, you know, is

• 37:42Billy Corgan?

  The word I would use is relentless. It seems to me from the outside, and I thought the music business was bad. The fashion business is very punishing. It's sort of relentless.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Yes, definitely. No, it's really, really hard. You know, you have to, you know, you have, you know, you normally have four collections a year to present, you know, spring, resort, fall, you know, I mean, you can't, it's always something bridal, you know, you know, you constantly do collections. You have to, you know, you have to recreate all the time, something, you know, I mean, I always felt that, I think fashion is really hard because if you think of it, if I was designing furniture and I'm successful at it, you repeat that piece of furniture forever because it's a classic. In fashion, it doesn't work that way, you know, once a woman wears, you know, those dresses, you need already to change to a new, new style.

• 38:32Billy Corgan?

  So is that the drive for innovation in it? Cause I, I don't really understand it even to this point. Is, is it's always about what's the new thing? What's the new thing for the, for the crowd that's buying?

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Not in my world, but in the world of, in the most mass market world, yes, it is. You have to constantly move on and bring some newness, you know, constantly so that, you know, it appeals for the store to buy the stores. Why would they buy something if they had it already before? So you constantly have to be, to recreate something, you know, to create attraction.

• 39:02Billy Corgan?

  Can you, can you list again for the, those that wouldn't know it, can you define a little bit about that kind of class of mostly women, obviously, but men too, but the, is it the, I don't know what you, what you call them, the, the wealthy couture class or the, or the fashion groupies? I don't know what you call that group of people. But there's a group of people who drive the biggest fashion houses in the world to innovate in the couture end of the thing.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:30Billy Corgan?

  Because it's about creating buzz and vibe and who's on the ascendancy. Can you talk about that?

• 39:35Speaker 01

  I'm not sure I fully understand. When you do runway, I mean, the most of the companies create runways in order to, you know, to show newness in their collection, to bring some new styles. Today, you know, we, we, we're living in a world, obviously, you know, where everything is, you know, mediatically shown to the world quickly through social media and so on. So they have, you know, the, there is a huge industry behind the showing of the collections to then to find, you know, to, to have the celebrities, you know, promote them. Uh, so that the celebrities promoting them create desire for the people in them, you know, to follow social media to buy.

• 40:14Billy Corgan?

  But I'm also talking about like, you know, the, the, the woman in Dallas who's married to a billionaire, who will buy, you know, a hundred thousand dollar couture piece because she wants to be the only person in the world.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Yes, I, I don't.

• 40:29Billy Corgan?

  I'm surprised.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't see that.

• 40:31Billy Corgan?

  Tell me if I'm wrong, but I'm surprised that that, that element of society also drives the fashion messaging as well. Maybe it's not as public as the celebrity and the Vogue.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  I don't think that's public as a, as a, you know, the celebrities.

• 40:45Billy Corgan?

  But I'm saying behind the scenes.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  But behind the scene, yeah, it's a huge.

• 40:48Billy Corgan?

  Okay, that's what I'm after.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, this is the crowd that I'm following, for example, with House of Sheila, you know, we.

• 40:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Uh, but this crowd is sometimes more low key than you think because, you know, they are, they, they, they, they follow the brands, they see, you know, the extravagance of the brands. But at the end, you know, they want something bespoke, unique. They spend a lot of money, but you know, the, the money they spend is also for, you know, this, they get something extraordinary, exclusive for them, that is, that has a lot of.

• 41:17Billy Corgan?

  But to the average American, and I grew up as an average American, you know, lower middle class.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:22Billy Corgan?

  You know, these figures that you hear thrown around, you know, somebody paid, you know.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, a few hundred thousand dollars for, for a dress.

• 41:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean.

• 41:31Billy Corgan?

  And by the way, wear it one time.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:33Billy Corgan?

  That's shocking to most, most people in the West.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:37Billy Corgan?

  That's not to put it on you because that's the business that exists. It, it exists with or without you.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I mean, you know, the value of what they buy, you know, they're spending, you know, there's a lot of work put behind. It's really one of a kind, you know, there's a whole atelier.

• 41:53Billy Corgan?

  I can attest to that, the amount of hours that goes into a bespoke.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  There is value to it, it's not a hype compared to many other things in fashion that I could call more of a hype.

• 42:01Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  You know, because you know, the markup between something that is made cheaply and sold, you know, highly priced.

• 42:07Billy Corgan?

  If you go into one of these fashion houses and you buy with the logo.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  That is correct.

• 42:11Billy Corgan?

  You're buying basically a hundred dollar parka.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  That is correct.

• 42:14Billy Corgan?

  That somebody's charging fifty times markup.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Because you spend, because all the money that they are spending in advertising and promoting and fashion shows and designers.

• 42:23Billy Corgan?

  Well, also that you're buying, you're buying, you're buying the vibe.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Correct, correct.

• 42:30Billy Corgan?

  So you build J. Mendel up to the point where it's, it's a multi, multi million dollar company. You have at some point a billionaire investor come in. What was the biggest sort of period of time for J. Mendel? When you, when you were running it?

• 42:45Speaker 01

  I mean, up to when, you know, during the time, you know, up to, I remember, you know, when we do a couture show in two thousand and sixteen, where your wife, my daughter, you know, came to Paris with me and we started with, it was a lot of fun. I mean, there was really heights, I loved it, you know, it was a very extraordinary experience for me because, you know, I like to do everything. So for me, at J. Mendel, it was, you know, from the windows, I love doing windows. So, you know, doing the windows on Madison Avenue was really my, my joy. For a while in Paris, we had a store and I would do the windows as well. And, you know, I got the best compliment because I always remember Albaz, Albaz was a designer of Longvin.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  And he always made the most fabulous windows on, for both at Honore in Paris. And one day I'm walking and this man walked and we met, you know, he knew me, I knew him. And he came to me and said, Gil, I love your windows. And you, it's like from a master saying that to me, you know, made me really happy because I really, I enjoyed this experience. I enjoy the window making, I enjoy when you're in the store, you know, meeting the customers, listening to their, you know, it's, there's something about it. So when, when I, I did this for a long time and I really enjoyed it and it was fun. But it became also more and more becoming, you know, something. Less personal as you grow, you know, you make more products.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  You can't control all the product and I like to control what I do. I like to, I like to put, you know. I have this imprint in me of this artisany, of this love of the product, respect of the product, which is really what I learned from my father and my grandfather. And I wanted to go back to that. And I think, you know, there was a point after two thousand and sixteen and then when COVID came in, you know, I mean.

• 44:32Billy Corgan?

  There was also the economic.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was an economic situation that, you know, lowered, you know, became also more difficult.

• 44:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  But I would say more, most of it was, you know, this desire to move on, really to, to, uh, to do something that I really love and go back to the roots of uh, something that I enjoy and, you know, in addition to what is such a family, you know, experience that that, you know, having my daughter joining me and uh, was, you know, such a, it's extraordinary, you know, it's nothing more extraordinary than that.

• 45:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Okay. So speaking of your daughter.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Uh oh.

• 45:12Billy Corgan?

  Some around two thousand and twelve, I show up in your life.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Yes, I remember that.

• 45:17Billy Corgan?

  So let's talk about that a bit.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Well.

• 45:21Billy Corgan?

  At this, I'll put you on the spot a bit.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do. Um, I mean, I'll be very honest, you know.

• 45:27Billy Corgan?

  Please.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  When somebody said machine pumpkin, I say, what? I had no idea, you know, um.

• 45:33Billy Corgan?

  To be fair, when somebody told me Jay Mendel, I didn't know what the hell they were talking about. So we're, we're even on that score.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  I always remember my daughter took me to a little tea house downtown. And she was, she wanted to talk to me and I, you know, I, she said to me, Dad, you know, I think I wanna, you know, I don't think I'm staying in that school, you know, the, the art institute. I met somebody and I think I'm on, he lives in this place and he, she tells me about, you know, this mansion on the lake, kind of freaky, you know, kind of, what the hell is that? You know, this Adler, you know, rich, David Hadler's house and all these details, you know, very dark, you know, it's like, you know, okay, then.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  She started to describe you a little bit more, you know, and you know, I said, okay, I mean, I didn't know who you were. So it was like, I said, how old is he?

• 46:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Oh, he's kind of a bit older. So I said, Chloe, why don't you, why don't you just don't go crazy, you know, come back to New York. We spend all time, you know, but she was so decided. She really wanted to stay in Chicago. So I, I knew that I had very little chances to convince her. And I always remember, you know, I went back home and say, what the hell, what I'm, what is my daughter doing? I cannot believe it, you know, I started to look in the internet, who you were, and that became even worse. You know, I saw some of the women you dated prior to my daughter. And I said, that what the hell is going on here? I cannot just believe it. You know, it was like a, a world, I mean, completely different world, as you can imagine.

• 47:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  So I said, what is Chloe finding so attractive about this man? I mean, you know, he is.

• 47:11Billy Corgan?

  I asked myself the same question.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  You know, I know if you remember, we had a call together.

• 47:15Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I remember.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  Oh, that call was so incredible. You are the perfect person to talk to when you have this kind of issues, because whatever you said to me, I didn't understand. So it was another Andy Warhol moment for me. You spoke to me so well, so adequately. You persuaded me, you could have said any, you know, I, I was saying yes to everything you were saying, because it was like, I had no arguments about nothing. You made me, I mean, I cracked up. But anyway, yes, I freaked out. I, for a while I was kind of worried. And, um, but you turned out to be an incredible person.

• 47:48Billy Corgan?

  Thank you.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  And.

• 47:50Billy Corgan?

  I love you too.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, but it's, and it's extraordinary.

• 47:53Billy Corgan?

  But to back to that conversation, since we're talking about it openly.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Openly.

• 47:57Billy Corgan?

  Well, your, well, your concern at the time um, was that your daughter would not fulfill her dreams.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 48:06Billy Corgan?

  And the thing I remember telling you on that phone call, and we didn't really know each other much at that point, was just, I don't want somebody who's just gonna sit at home. I want somebody who's I can be proud of and, and, and is successful. So.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  Yes. But you know, in those days, you know, I mean, looking back and knowing who you were at that time, or at least from what I could read.

• 48:25Billy Corgan?

  I was, I was a mess, so I.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying, you know, it was hard for me to, I mean, you could say whatever you were saying.

• 48:31Billy Corgan?

  I think the thing we could say, and I would say it, and if somebody was interviewing me, I would say it the same as I'm saying it to you is this. Your, your daughter, my wife, is such an extraordinary person. She's changed both of our lives.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:44Billy Corgan?

  And I think that's really, it's a testament more to her than to me.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Yes, definitely, definitely.

• 48:51Billy Corgan?

  That's where I'm blessed, you know.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm blessed too.

• 48:54Billy Corgan?

  And you're my father-in-law, so. I got, I got, I got, I got you in the deal too, which was awesome.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 49:00Billy Corgan?

  Um, so let's back, back to business here.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Well, she's in business now with me, so back to business.

• 49:07Billy Corgan?

  We gotta go back, we gotta go back a little bit because it talks a little, it gets, because it gets into the fur issue as well.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 49:14Billy Corgan?

  I think, uh, she told me twenty, Maison Atti started, you and Chloe with an investor, friend of yours.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:23Billy Corgan?

  Cadimaison Rouge.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:24Billy Corgan?

  You guys started Maison Atti, which was a faux fur.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Faux fur business.

• 49:28Billy Corgan?

  Brand.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:29Billy Corgan?

  I loved it because I thought, what a cool way to continue the, the great tradition of the Mendels in fur.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:36Billy Corgan?

  But avoid, of course, the, the, and I remember us having a conversation, and maybe it's a good time to bring it up.

• 49:45Billy Corgan?

  It's not to convince people of why fur should still be in the fashion business. Because you've gotten out of fur, right? So that's, it's not an ethical issue for you at this point. But I remember you talking very eloquently about, uh,

• 50:02Billy Corgan?

  I guess I asked you a question, which is, what's the most positive way to look at fur in fashion? If there is still a place for fur in fashion? Is that something you want to speak on? Or are you, are you at a point now where you think it's, that ship has sailed? In essence, is there an ethical place for fur in fashion? I guess that's the most challenging question I would ask you.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really a challenging question because you know. It's been, you know, I mean, you know, you cannot, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a subject that can go, can be endless in, in my response is, I don't know what to say because in one hand, you know, talking about sustainability and all this, you know, obviously there's a lot of hypocrisy about talking about faux fur that is made of chemicals and all that stuff. When you think about fur, which is auto gradable, you know, you know, it's a small industry, it's a tiny industry, you know, it's not really, you know, but animal cruelty is an issue and you know, there's nothing I can fight about that. And I have to say, you know, in some ways, you know, everybody, it's understandable that there could be issues on that.

• 51:07Speaker 01

  But, you know, it's a small thing, it's a small business, it was never, you know, I, I don't know, I, it's, to me, it's, you know, I was a diamond cutter and the diamond became radioactive. And today I am not cutting diamonds anymore. That's that, that's where I stand.

• 51:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  And honestly, I had bigger vision because I felt like, you know, I had such a desire to be in fashion and fashion is not just fur by itself. Fur to me is a beautiful product. I mean, it's extraordinary, you know, and if it's treated with respect, understanding and, you know, there's no reason why it should have been totally, you know, destroyed and had to disappear, you know, there's room for it and.

• 51:46Billy Corgan?

  But you're, you've accepted it as sort of a kind of a.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  I accepted the fact that, you know, we can also live without if that's, you know, that the world, where the world is going.

• 51:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it seems to be that's where the world is going.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  But I'm confused where the world is going, but that's a different subject.

• 52:03Billy Corgan?

  Different subject, maybe that's for a different interview.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:08Billy Corgan?

  So Maison Atiya lasted about five.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:11Billy Corgan?

  Years or so, but part of the challenge was you guys were actually getting traction.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:15Billy Corgan?

  Were doing quite well and then the pandemic.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 52:18Billy Corgan?

  Kind of wiped that business out.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 52:21Billy Corgan?

  So the silver lining in that is that you and Chloe decided to start what is now House of Gil.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:26Billy Corgan?

  So tell people what House of Gil is because I'm part of that, because I'm part of the family and.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  Yes, I mean, House of Gil is a beautiful new story, you know, that I, we started, I mean, it really started with this idea, first of all, what, you know, when you, you know.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  You were getting married with Chloé, you know, we we had to do this beautiful gown, obviously, for for Chloé. And it was a it was a start. I said to Chloé and we discussed it and we said, you know, why don't we take this first step, this first stone, we're gonna we're gonna initiate a couture house. I always dreamed to have a couture house. I always dreamed to have to bring back, you know, the artisanry and art, especially at a in New York City, which is something unique, you know, and finding the right ingredients.

• 53:11Billy Corgan?

  It's kind of funny that they don't really exist like they used to, right?

• 53:14Speaker 01

  No, because it's a trade that many people, you know, they're getting older, the people who really know how to sew and the pattern makers at certain level, you know, come from those houses of, you know, European houses are very scarce in New York, in America. But, you know, I was so Chloé and I, we we felt that it was such a great idea, you know, to go back to the roots of the house.

• 53:34Billy Corgan?

  But it was really inspired by her wedding dress.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Yes, the wedding dress was really the beginning, you know, I thought, you know, what a great way to to show to the world that we we back on track with beautiful gowns and and, you know, this obviously your wedding was beautiful, Chloé looked amazing. And, you know, it it started like that, we, I mean, I I did the I did a dress for the Met Ball and then Chloé and I, we said, OK, maybe let's set up a little place in New York and let's do, let's be more serious and try to to create, you know, a couture place where women could come and and meet the designer, meet his his daughter, who also is fully participant with the design and experience what couture can be in America.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  And I think it's, you know, so far, it's been an extraordinary experience.

• 54:23Billy Corgan?

  It's a nice, it's a nice thing, because when I try to explain what you and Chloé are doing, anybody I sort of say, hey, go to this Instagram page or check out these pictures, everybody has the same reaction, which is just like, wow. It's almost like they didn't know that that level of craftsmanship was was available, you know.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, if you have seen today, we did a show, today we presented a bridal collection in our little studio, but the reaction of everybody. They were the same, same thing all the time, like, how can we, this is happening in this studio? Those flowers, those lace detail.

• 54:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  You know, it's all those hands, those we call petite main.

• 55:02Billy Corgan?

  For people, for people that wouldn't understand, uh, and just give me an average, but on a bespoke gown, where somebody comes in and orders from you and Chloé.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 55:12Billy Corgan?

  A specific gown, mostly bridal.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 55:16Billy Corgan?

  Uh, but, but also some celebrities have come in and asked for custom for Met Ball and things like this. So on a bespoke piece, uh, what would be the normal amount of hours that would go into a bespoke piece? Can you give an estimate?

• 55:30Speaker 01

  Well, it takes.

• 55:31Billy Corgan?

  Cause it's kind of mind boggling.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  It takes, uh, for one dress, it takes about two to three months in minimum to, to, to make it. By stages, because that's a whole experience, you know? What's beautiful with Chloé is that, you know, we basically, we, we give, we give the customer, you know, that ex, that extraordinary experience where she comes in and we, she, we, we take her measurements. And then it's so, it's, it's, it progresses into, you know, we discuss her desires, her views, or, you know, her inspirations and so on.

• 56:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  And we, and, uh, you know, we give her really a journey through this experience, which is fabulous.

• 56:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  Chloe on that is really good in giving that expectations and, and give the, the woman, you know, the, the client, you know, um, that going beyond her expectations in what we, what we create.

• 56:22Billy Corgan?

  When we were all in Paris together recently, we went to see that show about the House of Worth, which was like the original.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:28Billy Corgan?

  Uh, bespoke couture house.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:31Billy Corgan?

  In Paris, run by an English guy.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 56:34Billy Corgan?

  I guess going back to like eighteen fifty's, but mostly they were making garments for the royals.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Yes, correct.

• 56:39Billy Corgan?

  So basically what you offer, and this also goes into your family's tradition fur. You're offering basically the level of, uh,

• 56:48Speaker 01

  Of couture and refinement and artisanry.

• 56:51Billy Corgan?

  But that used to only be available to people in the royal class.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 56:54Billy Corgan?

  Which is crazy.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Correct, correct. And yeah, it's it's a trade that is, you know, I tried to revive the some few, you know, these are things that when you you don't have to be experienced in fa- in fashion to feel what's, you know, the electricity, the the the magic of the of the place when you come to us.

• 57:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Because you see it, you know, beauty is beauty, you know, there is nothing you cannot change that.

• 57:16Billy Corgan?

  Okay, last round.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Uh oh.

• 57:18Billy Corgan?

  I I wrote out these questions because I thought they's sort of interesting because I I want your sort of take. And you can go as long or short on them as you like. Okay, what's the future of fashion?

• 57:31Speaker 01

  Wow, that's a that's a deep question. You know, it's I'm troubled because, you know, it's not an easy answer to give you.

• 57:45Speaker 01

  The world today is changing so quickly that it's really hard to give you an answer because, you know, fast fashion doesn't seem to go too well these days. There's a lot of issue, you know, about it.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  I hope that the future, I that's where I would look at it. I hope that the future, and I think it's going into more, you know, sustainability and more quality oriented, more less volume, less trash, less all these things. So I hope, you know, the future. I don't see a very bright future.

• 58:19Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Okay.

• 58:25Billy Corgan?

  If elegance and class is one side of the equation, what's the opposite side of the equation? Is it like what you said, is it trash fashion? Is it disposable?

• 58:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's yeah, disposable fashion. I mean, you know, fashion that, you know, lasts. Pieces that you buy and that, you know, there's so much waste, you know, because people buy things, you know, I mean, now is everything is so easily accessible, you know, you can buy things by mail everywhere, you could buy, so there is, there is a very wasteful. So I think that hopefully, you know, people will more and more appreciate quality and and try to buy less, but products that are better made.

• 59:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  And yeah, I mean, it's.

• 59:11Billy Corgan?

  We face similar dynamics in business in different ways. How do you compete as a house, the House of Gilles? How do you compete against these massive multinational corporations?

• 59:26Speaker 01

  I think you don't compete. You're so unique that you are what you are in the time where you compete. Meaning, you know, I'm not looking to be the size.

• 59:35Billy Corgan?

  I don't mean dollar to dollar.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  Okay, okay. Well, you can't. You can't compete with those big houses. You have to not even think about competing because you can't. You know, the power they have, you know, in social media and mediatically is so high, so big. The millions they spend on every, you know, it's impossible. But you have your own voice and it's, I mean, I can't, you see, we are really successful at it. So it means there is a place for uniqueness.

• 1:00:04Billy Corgan?

  Why make the same argument in music?

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:07Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:08Billy Corgan?

  And I also make it with my wrestling company. There is a place for quality always.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  Always.

• 1:00:14Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:00:18Billy Corgan?

  When people are coming to you, I mean, obviously they're coming to you, say, for a gown. But what are they really looking for? Are they looking for a personalized experience? Are they looking to be, are they want to have something that they feel special and ownership of? Like, what's the, what's the most common thing that you see that people are really looking for at the, at the, at the foundation?

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  They really, I mean, I think they, they're really looking for a good, first of all, for good advices. They want to feel, you know, they, they're looking for, I mean, when they come to us, obviously, you know, they come to, they meet the designer who has, you know, a past of making very beautiful, but also very feminine and a certain aesthetic. So when they come to us, they're looking for maybe a vision of themselves they haven't thought about. And I think that's what we can bring. We bring, you know, we, we bring something more unexpected to them because they just to look at us. You know, you can go to a store or you can have a stylist propose to use 65 different shapes of clothing and so on. And when you meet with a designer who makes those clothes.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  Close and he has his vision to, you know, based on her, on your inspiration, your ideas. The fun part is really to give them, you know, a different variation, a different vision of what of themselves. Would you want to have this? I mean, I would die if someone to do that for me. I'd love to come someplace. They could say, Gil, you know, enough of your, you know, of your, of this look. Why don't we propose you? And that's what we do. And I think it's a

• 1:01:42Billy Corgan?

  Maybe that's what I need to do. I need to give you my, my version of your look.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  Well, please do. We could do that. You know, we could flip one night.

• 1:01:49Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my God, I'd be so scared. It'd be like trying to cook for a master chef.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no. No, but it's fun to do that. You know, it's really, it's extraordinary because people come to us and they have this expect, they, they get excited. They, they see the transformation.

• 1:02:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  And, you know, now with the iPad, you know, you could, you know, I draw on an iPad and I have this stupid program. Basically, I do old fashioned.

• 1:02:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I've seen it where you can literally show somebody what it will look like.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Basically, you know, I make a picture of you and I start to dress you while you're there. And it's so much fun.

• 1:02:22Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:02:24Billy Corgan?

  One last question and then one little story that I want to tell.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:02:31Billy Corgan?

  Do you have a vision?

• 1:02:34Billy Corgan?

  Because, because my wife is your business partner.

• 1:02:39Billy Corgan?

  We talk a lot about what how Sajil would become. And I don't say it in some self-serving commercial way. I say it in the sense of like, as entrepreneurs, the vision of what you hope a business can become. You know, where you're putting your passion and you're putting in those extra hours and you're dealing with the bull that anybody in business deals with. What for you is the, is the, is the vision for how Sajil? In terms of growth, like past what you're doing and what you're doing is amazing, but as you and I know, that's not a sustainable path.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:15Billy Corgan?

  Past a certain point.

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:16Billy Corgan?

  Cause you're always fighting the headwinds of change.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Billy Corgan?

  Trend.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Yes, I mean, you know, it's a core, it's a base, you know, if you look at all those big houses, those famous houses, you know, they always, they always keep couture somewhere. So couture is the base. It's like basically it's kind of creates some legitimacy of the house. We know Chanel, you know, has, does couture. They also acquire all this little atelier in Paris, where they were, where they were, do the feather work, where they do.

• 1:03:45Billy Corgan?

  Ah, okay.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  So, you know, couture is like what by, what makes, to my point of view, is create the legitimacy of the house.

• 1:03:53Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  And then from there, you know, you develop the ready to wear. So I think that couture for us is really makes us so unique in our own ways, that ultimately we can either find later on more collaborations, more, we can find other ways to expand, because we have this prestigious image about us, whether perfume, whether it's, it's unique.

• 1:04:13Billy Corgan?

  I love that.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  It's unique.

• 1:04:14Billy Corgan?

  I went in on the perfume division.

• 1:04:18Billy Corgan?

  So last story, and I, I would say it to hopefully make you laugh.

• 1:04:23Billy Corgan?

  You were working on something custom for me. And as you guys do, you're tugging and you're, you and Chloe are arguing about the buttons. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, I want to be anywhere else on the planet than having you guys tug on me and argue about the buttons. And I started grousing, as only a husband can, about, do I have to sit here and listen to you guys talk about the buttons? And my wife, your daughter, turned to me and said, we care just as much about the buttons as you care about the way your songs sound in the studio. Why do you sit in a studio all day and fuss over a guitar sound? And for the first time in my now thirteen year relationship with your daughter, I understood.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:07Billy Corgan?

  That it's just as important to you as those guitar tones are to me.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:11Billy Corgan?

  And in reverse, and I say this in fellowship, I don't know why I care so much about the damn guitar sound. Because you could argue after about an hour, any sound after that's pretty good.

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:24Billy Corgan?

  But why do I have to do it for three hours? What is that, that little thing, that little advantage, that little thing that says, no, this is my, this is my signature.

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:33Billy Corgan?

  So I feel like I understand and.

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  It's exactly that.

• 1:05:37Billy Corgan?

  Maybe it brought us a little closer together.

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  No, one hundred percent.

• 1:05:40Billy Corgan?

  Did you have fun?

• 1:05:41Speaker 01

  Yes, of course I did. Good to see you, Beni. Thanks, love you. I love you.