Chazz Palminteri | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan sits down with legendary actor and storyteller Chazz Palminteri to retrace the unbelievable true story behind A Bronx Tale — a mafia murder witnessed at age nine, a Hollywood firing from Swifty Lazar, and the moment poverty and desperation pushed him to take control of his own destiny. Chazz reveals how turning down $1 million to protect his story led to a handshake deal with Robert De Niro that changed his life. Together they dive into the emotional core of the film — fathers and sons, loyalty vs. survival and share deeply human stories about parenting, superstition, faith, teaching their kids strength without the scars — and why “wasted talent” still haunts them. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 1:00Speaker 03

  I produced it and the place went crazy. I did it and people were screaming and clapping and the crowds just kept getting bigger.

• 1:11Billy Corgan?

  When you first were standing there going, "Oh, my God, what's happening?" What was your first thought of like, what was it that they were connecting so deeply with?

• 1:18Speaker 03

  You can make them laugh, you can make them cry, or you could scare them. That's it. Can't do anything else to them. And in Bronx Tale, I make you laugh, I make you cry, and I scare you.

• 1:30Billy Corgan?

  In the case of Swifty Lazar?

• 1:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:32Billy Corgan?

  He gets you fired, you make a decision, and it changes your life.

• 1:35Speaker 03

  Exactly. My son used to say, "Nobody cares." Nobody cares. Don't worry about it, nobody cares.

• 1:45Billy Corgan?

  Thank you for being on my show.

• 1:48Speaker 03

  Billy, it's good to be here.

• 1:49Billy Corgan?

  So maybe I gotta be on your show, but today you're on my show.

• 1:51Speaker 03

  Yes, one day I'd love to have you on my show.

• 1:54Billy Corgan?

  I hope I got the year right. 1988, you're working as a bouncer in Hollywood. Is that a true story?

• 2:00Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah. I ran out of money. When I first got there in 86, I hit it. I hit what I hit it, whatever you want to call that. I got guest star roles. I got on Hill Street Blues and Manelock in Dallas. And I was like, wow, you know, I started really cranking, you know? I mean, I was an actor in LA. I mean, in New York, I was on Broadway understudy. That was my first big break where I got an agent. But then I went out to LA and I started, you know, working as a guest star on some of these shows. And then after about a year and a half, I ran out of that money that I did. I used to bounce in New York at the Limelight in Manhattan.

• 2:45Speaker 03

  So then I said, well, I might as well, I better start doing that again. And I got a job as the doorman, doorman bouncer.

• 2:52Billy Corgan?

  More of a doorman, okay.

• 2:53Speaker 03

  But a doorman bouncer.

• 2:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:56Speaker 03

  At this club in Beverly Hills.

• 2:58Billy Corgan?

  You certainly have the presence for that. You know what I mean?

• 3:02Speaker 03

  You know, I'm tall and big and I could, you know, I use the box and work out a lot and, you know, I'm okay. I could handle myself.

• 3:09Billy Corgan?

  You know who you always reminded me of, and I mean this as a compliment, is George Raft.

• 3:14Speaker 03

  Oh, I love George Raft.

• 3:16Billy Corgan?

  Your presence has a George, just George Raft. It's like I buy that you, like, if you were the bouncer, you know what I mean? I buy it without you having to open your mouth, you know?

• 3:25Speaker 03

  Well, that's the idea. You don't want to be able to have to open your mouth. You just want to be able to talk to somebody. I guess after years, I mean, I grew up in a very tough neighborhood in the Bronx. A lot of tough guys, but, and I always say, if you put me on the scale of those tough guys there, I'm way on the bottom. There were guys in my neighborhood that were just. My God, you know, they were just stone cold.

• 3:52Billy Corgan?

  But if you grew up around tough guys, I grew up around tough guys too.

• 3:55Speaker 03

  I grew up around mafia guys.

• 3:57Billy Corgan?

  Me too.

• 3:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:58Billy Corgan?

  Or the grandkids.

• 4:00Speaker 03

  The grand, yeah.

• 4:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, like I went to school with, you know, Tony Ocardo, Tony Ocardo Jr.

• 4:05Speaker 03

  Right, yeah.

• 4:05Billy Corgan?

  I grew up like around those kids, the Chicago version.

• 4:08Speaker 03

  I'm older than you, so I went to the fathers.

• 4:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 4:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, so, so, so I grew up around a lot of those wise guys in their family. So it's like, I know the vibe, you know?

• 4:16Speaker 03

  You know the vibe, yeah, you know, so I grew up and anyway, I had this job and the whole, the way.

• 4:22Billy Corgan?

  What was the name of the place? Sorry.

• 4:23Speaker 03

  Yes, uh, it was called 2020.

• 4:28Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 4:29Speaker 03

  And that was because it was in the Beverly, uh, the Beverly Center and it was like 20, the address was 2020. And I worked there and it was a French guy, great guy too, Ferno, and he was a really nice guy. And I worked there for like two or three months. And after about the third month, you know, everything was great. And the one night, this is how the whole thing started, Billy. One night I'm standing over there and all of a sudden, there's three rules of a doorman that you don't break. You never say, do you know who I am? Ever. If you say those words.

• 5:07Billy Corgan?

  It's over.

• 5:08Speaker 03

  It's over. You're not getting it. Can I curse?

• 5:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, of course.

• 5:12Speaker 03

  Okay, you're not getting it. And the second thing is you never touch the rope, the rope that goes across.

• 5:17Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I didn't know.

• 5:18Speaker 03

  Never. You put.

• 5:19Billy Corgan?

  I knew not to say, do you know who I am?

• 5:21Speaker 03

  You put your hands on that rope.

• 5:23Billy Corgan?

  Oh, cause you're doing the, okay, right.

• 5:25Speaker 03

  You're not getting in. And the third thing is if you break the space and you get in the guy's face, you're not getting in.

• 5:31Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 5:31Speaker 03

  So this guy walks over, says, do you know who I am?

• 5:37Billy Corgan?

  And grabs the rope.

• 5:38Speaker 03

  Grabs the rope and gets in my face.

• 5:40Billy Corgan?

  At the same.

• 5:40Speaker 03

  So this guy broke.

• 5:42Billy Corgan?

  How, how tall was this gentleman?

• 5:45Speaker 03

  Oh, he was like five.

• 5:46Billy Corgan?

  Short, right.

• 5:46Speaker 03

  Five, short.

• 5:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 5:48Speaker 03

  And he had these big horn rimmed glasses.

• 5:50Billy Corgan?

  That was his trademark.

• 5:51Speaker 03

  And he walked in and he says that words to me, I said, yes, you're the guy who's not getting in tonight. And he said, you will be fired in 15 minutes. And he, and I said, you get online, you know, and 15 minutes later, the boss called me in and I got fired.

• 6:09Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 6:10Speaker 03

  It was.

• 6:10Billy Corgan?

  And this is Swifty Lazar.

• 6:12Speaker 03

  Swifty Lazar. That's a true story. It was Swifty Lazar.

• 6:15Billy Corgan?

  At the time, wasn't he, at the time, he was considered the most powerful man in Hollywood.

• 6:18Speaker 03

  Powerful man in the world. At William Morris.

• 6:23Billy Corgan?

  And you wanted to be an actor, right?

• 6:24Speaker 03

  I wanted to be an actor.

• 6:25Billy Corgan?

  Good, good.

• 6:26Speaker 03

  The most powerful man in the world. I just told him to go fuck himself. And, um.

• 6:31Billy Corgan?

  I love that.

• 6:32Speaker 03

  I got fired, just like you said. And the owner, I, I still, I always say props to the owner, cause he's a great guy. He said, look, I love you, man. You, you've been so great, but he has too many parties here. I gotta let you go. I said, ah, don't worry about it. I went home, sat on the edge of my bed. I said, what am I gonna do? I was running out of money. I had a couple hundred dollars left in the bank. And that's what I said. If they won't give me a great part, I'll write one myself. I went to Thrifty Drug Store. I got these five yellow tabs of paper, legal paper. And I said, I'll write about this killing that I saw when I was a kid. I always wanted to write about the, the dynamics between the working man, the mafia, and my father. And I started writing and that's how Bron Stil was born.

• 7:16Billy Corgan?

  Had he ever tried to write anything before?

• 7:17Speaker 03

  Yes, I did. I did write. I wrote short stories. I wrote lyrics to the band that I was in.

• 7:22Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 7:23Speaker 03

  You know.

• 7:23Billy Corgan?

  Like ever, ever a screenplay?

• 7:25Speaker 03

  No.

• 7:26Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 7:26Speaker 03

  Never screenplay.

• 7:27Billy Corgan?

  Good, good first.

• 7:28Speaker 03

  Short stories were my first screenplay.

• 7:31Speaker 03

  But I was an actor for years, so I knew what a screenplay was.

• 7:34Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 7:35Speaker 03

  I knew, I knew the form.

• 7:37Billy Corgan?

  But still, that's a big thing to jump.

• 7:38Speaker 03

  Yes, but I just was like, you know, when you, it's called poverty, desperation. You just do it.

• 7:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:44Speaker 03

  You just do it. You know, it's like, I'm doing it. I started writing. And the more I started writing, the more I started learning, reading about how to structure, not structure about how, you know, fade in, fade out. But I was always natural. I was a natural storyteller.

• 8:00Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 8:00Speaker 03

  I was really good at telling stories. You know, and I did it. And then I said, I'm gonna play all the characters, all eighteen characters myself. I said, I'm not gonna have people read it. I'm gonna play the parts. I said, this way.

• 8:15Billy Corgan?

  Sorry, how long a process was that in terms of writing?

• 8:19Speaker 03

  Almost a year.

• 8:19Billy Corgan?

  Making that decision? Okay.

• 8:20Speaker 03

  A year.

• 8:21Billy Corgan?

  And you're still doing bit parts and acting and?

• 8:24Speaker 03

  I got a part on a TV series called Peter Gunn.

• 8:29Speaker 03

  And I, it was a movie of the week and I got like $10,000 for that. And that was able to sustain me for the year.

• 8:36Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 8:36Speaker 03

  Cause my rent was like $300 a month.

• 8:38Billy Corgan?

  And where were you living in LA at that point?

• 8:40Speaker 03

  North Hollywood.

• 8:41Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 8:42Speaker 03

  And, you know, and I lived in, you know, dump, you know, one of those motels, you know, like we all. And I had a dumpy car and it was, you know, it was pretty, but it's like an actor, you know, I'm not, you know, what are you gonna do? That's what you're an actor, that's the way you live. And finally, I finished writing it. And then I borrowed some, I borrowed money from my friend who owned the Limelight.

• 9:07Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 9:08Speaker 03

  Peter Gation. He let me, I think, twenty, thirty thousand dollars. And then I put it up at this little theater.

• 9:15Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 9:15Speaker 03

  And Billy, I produced it. And the place went crazy. I did it. And people were screaming and clapping and the crowds just kept getting bigger.

• 9:29Billy Corgan?

  This is in New York, yeah?

• 9:30Speaker 03

  In LA.

• 9:30Billy Corgan?

  Oh, in LA, okay.

• 9:31Speaker 03

  In LA.

• 9:32Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 9:32Speaker 03

  And then, then the LA Times came and all these people were heard about it and came to see it. And it was like, the rage of Hollywood. It was like incredible. And everybody wanted to make it a movie. But they didn't want me.

• 9:49Billy Corgan?

  How soon, how soon from when you debuted the, the one man version of A Bronx Tale to Hollywood agents start?

• 9:56Speaker 03

  Two weeks.

• 9:57Billy Corgan?

  Two weeks?

• 9:58Speaker 03

  Two weeks.

• 10:00Billy Corgan?

  You must have, you must have pinched yourself, yeah.

• 10:03Speaker 03

  Word gets out in Hollywood, there's something that could be a movie.

• 10:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:07Speaker 03

  People said, you gotta see this kid, he's did this. Two weeks, it's people started, agents started coming, uh, you know.

• 10:15Billy Corgan?

  And what, when they told you, cause this is such a big part of the story.

• 10:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:19Billy Corgan?

  When they told you, hey, we want the story, but we don't want you. Like, what was their rationale?

• 10:26Speaker 03

  The first, I got a phone call at my home, at my house. And I, I, you know, really didn't have cell phones back in 1980, so, you know, eighty seven, eighty six. So I, I picked up the phone and the guy said, this is a gentleman from, from, I forgot his name, from Universal Pictures. He said, we had a representative see the show last night, we love it, we want to give you $250,000. Now, I'm living in some hole, my car's a 1972 Honda, you know, with a, with a dent in it, it kept leaking water. And I said, 250,000? I said, for my, for my play? He goes, yeah, we want to develop it into a story.

• 11:11Speaker 03

  I, I said, but I want to play Sonny, and he went, no, I'm sorry, no, we just want, we want the rights to the play. To what you did.

• 11:21Speaker 03

  And that, that was the hardest call, to be honest with you. And I'll, I'll explain why, because I said, let me think about it. And he said, okay, but you have to let us know by tomorrow. I said, fine. And I hung up the phone and I said.

• 11:32Billy Corgan?

  I love the pressure.

• 11:34Speaker 03

  250,000?

• 11:36Billy Corgan?

  By the way, that's 1988 money, not 250,000 now.

• 11:39Speaker 03

  That's, that's 1988 money.

• 11:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:42Speaker 03

  So I said, holy, you know, I got no money, I said, but I want to be in it. And I called my parents, because they were helping me out for years and they didn't have any money. And I told them about it and they said, don't worry, son, just do what you want.

• 11:55Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 11:56Speaker 03

  They said, you, you do what you want, don't we trust you? So I called them back. The next day and I said, look, I'm sorry. I said, unless I play Sonny and I write the screenplay, I'm not doing it. They said, well, then forget it. I said, okay. And everybody in Hollywood was saying, this crazy bastard turned down 250,000. About two weeks later, they called back again.

• 12:22Speaker 03

  500,000.

• 12:25Speaker 03

  And I said, I told you. See, it was easy. After the first one, it was easy.

• 12:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:30Speaker 03

  Because people go, it must have been. I go, no, the first one was the hardest. Because that came out of nowhere.

• 12:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:35Speaker 03

  Then it became just money to me. I didn't have any money. So what did it matter?

• 12:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:40Speaker 03

  And I turned down the 500,000. Then, then William Morris came, ICM came and all these big.

• 12:47Billy Corgan?

  William Morris, who Swifty Lazar worked.

• 12:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then all these people came. And then finally I went, I signed with William Morris.

• 12:54Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 12:55Speaker 03

  And they brought me to another, another studio who wanted to see me. And I sat down at the table and the guy, I'll never forget it. They were all sitting around a table. And the guy had a piece of paper right here and he slid it over to me during the meeting. And he said, if you sign that paper, Chaz, you'll have a check for $1 million tomorrow.

• 13:17Speaker 03

  And I said, a million dollars?

• 13:20Speaker 03

  I said, I said, but, but I have to play Sonny. And the guy, I'll never forget his, he just put his head down like this. He said, listen, you're a great actor. I know you've been on Broadway. You're terrific, but we can't make a big movie with you playing the lead. No one knows you. No one.

• 13:44Speaker 03

  So I just said, is there a bathroom you have here? He said, yeah, right over there. I said, excuse, I'll, I'll be right back. I went into the men's room. There was executive bathroom there. I, I, so I look in the mirror. I put water on my hand. Well, put water on my face and I went, I'm looking in the mirror and I put my hand in my pocket. And I brought my father's card. The saddest thing in life is waste of talent. And I, I took out the card and I said, I looked at it and I said,

• 14:13Speaker 03

  Okay, I'll never forget it. Put the card back in, I walked outside. I said, I'm sorry, I can't do it. And he said, and they all looked at each other and I said, okay, well, it was great seeing you guys. And I stood up. Now, once you stand up at a meeting, it's over.

• 14:29Billy Corgan?

  It's over.

• 14:29Speaker 03

  It's over. And my agents who were on my left and right looked at me like, this guy's crazy. They stood up with me and I said, thank you. And when I walked out, it was a very famous director who wanted to do it. He was there and he said, and the president of the studio said, you know, Chaz, if you walk out this door, this check won't be here when you get back. That's what he said to me. I said, well, I said, why don't you make it with me? I go, I go, because I said, I said, make it with me right now. I said, it'd be a lot easier. And he said, he goes, he goes, this movie will never get made. That's what he said.

• 15:14Speaker 03

  And I said, you're right. It won't get made with you. And he says, why is that? I said, because it's too good. And sooner or later, somebody will make it. And I walked out. And two weeks later, Billy.

• 15:29Billy Corgan?

  Robert De Niro.

• 15:30Speaker 03

  I did the show. I got off stage and the guy came over and said, go down to the dressing room. Robert De Niro is down there. You just saw the show.

• 15:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:39Speaker 03

  I walk in and Bob is sitting there in the chair. And I said, hi, you know, I didn't know him. And he said, oh, my God, that's an incredible show was the, you know, he just raved about the show.

• 15:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:53Speaker 03

  He said, you made a movie. And he said, he goes, look, I want to make this a movie. And you know what I said? I said, well, listen. He goes, I know, I know. But I'll tell you how I feel. You should play Sonny. You should write the screenplay. He goes, I'll play your father and I'll direct it. And if you shake my hands, that's the way it'll be. I shook his hands and that's how it will be.

• 16:15Billy Corgan?

  That's the neighborhood right there, right?

• 16:17Speaker 03

  That's it. I'm sorry I talked so long, but I wanted to tell the continuation of the story.

• 16:25Billy Corgan?

  What was your first impression when you were, when you saw people reacting so viscerally to it? And obviously Hollywood comes calling. What was your first impression of why people were responding so emotionally and viscerally to it?

• 16:39Speaker 03

  Because, you know, I just.

• 16:42Speaker 03

  I mean, I mean, I'm telling even till today, Bill, and it's thirty five years later. I still did the show last week in Chicago. People cry. You know, Alfred Hitchcock used to say, there's only three things you could do to an audience. And if you do two out of three, usually you have a hit. He said, he said, you can make them laugh, you can make them cry, or you could scare them. That's it. Can't do anything else to them. And in Bronx Tale, I make you laugh, I make you cry, and I scare you. So there was, it's, there was, you're just, look, I've been in enough. Obviously, you've been an entertainer all your life.

• 17:22Speaker 03

  You know, when they jump right up and give you a standing ovation, that's a real standing ovation.

• 17:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:29Speaker 03

  It's not a.

• 17:30Billy Corgan?

  You learned, you learned to hear the crowd.

• 17:32Speaker 03

  You learn.

• 17:32Billy Corgan?

  What's, what's real applause and what's just nice.

• 17:36Speaker 03

  Polite.

• 17:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:37Speaker 03

  And what's, what's, what's a kind of polite standing ovation? You know, thirty people stand, then people go, oh, I gotta stand up. I know. No, or when you, when they just go.

• 17:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:49Speaker 03

  And every show, I did a thousand sixty performances.

• 17:55Billy Corgan?

  Internet says sixty one, but.

• 17:56Speaker 03

  Sixty one, I'm sorry.

• 17:57Billy Corgan?

  We won't argue, we won't argue with the.

• 17:58Speaker 03

  I forgot, I forgot Chicago. And it's just boom. And it's, you know, when you write lightning in a bottle?

• 18:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, some of your great songs, you know, nineteen seventy five, you just write, you know, you write lightning in a bottle.

• 18:14Billy Corgan?

  That's true. And you, and you sit there and wonder.

• 18:17Speaker 03

  You wonder how this happened.

• 18:19Billy Corgan?

  I get the lightning in the bottle, yeah.

• 18:21Speaker 03

  It's just lightning, how could I do this again?

• 18:23Billy Corgan?

  But, sorry to persist on the question, but what do you think, again, your first impression, because.

• 18:28Speaker 03

  What do I think, why?

• 18:29Billy Corgan?

  Like, what, when you first were standing there going, oh, my God, what's happening? What, what was your first thought of like, what, what was it that they were connecting so deeply with?

• 18:38Speaker 03

  My first thought was, yes, I did it. To be honest with you, I said, I got them.

• 18:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:44Speaker 03

  I did it.

• 18:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:46Speaker 03

  And then I, and then I realized that later, when we're, I, cause I wrote, I wrote about these archetypes, about the father, the mother, wasted talent. Everybody has that dream inside of them about not touch, wasting their life, about doing something, about reaching the highest of potential. And it, and it connects people in a very visceral way.

• 19:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:13Speaker 03

  It's like, I have these kids that weren't born when I did it. Parents bring their son, fathers bring their sons, big time. They bring their daughters, but fathers and sons, watch this movie and forget it. It's a thing about fathers and sons, they go, my God, you know, my dad made me see that movie when I was 14 or 15 or 10 or nine. And it just goes on and on. It's, it's bigger than, it's bigger than it ever was, Billy.

• 19:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:47Speaker 03

  It's, it's unbelievable.

• 19:54Billy Corgan?

  So I want to dive into some of the themes because.

• 19:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:58Billy Corgan?

  Not that you know my life story, but I'm, I connect a lot of these themes for, for a variety of reasons. Mainly because of the world I grew up in. I talked a little bit about.

• 20:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:07Billy Corgan?

  Growing up with a lot of these wise guys around. My dad used to run drugs and, and guns for the mob. So I was around a lot of wise guys. Yeah. So I, I, I, I lived in this world at different times.

• 20:18Speaker 03

  Right.

• 20:19Billy Corgan?

  You know, and you lived at the edge of that world as well.

• 20:22Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 20:23Billy Corgan?

  You know, so let's start here. In hindsight, looking back in the world that you grew up in, do you, do you, do you see it now still as an honorable world? Like, was it still a world in your mind, a world based on honor? Cause I saw an interview where we were talking about Sonny and the, and the, and the Lorenzo is the father.

• 20:43Speaker 03

  My father was Lorenzo, yes.

• 20:45Billy Corgan?

  But, and your dad was Lorenzo, yeah.

• 20:47Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 20:47Billy Corgan?

  Like, okay, so, uh, and I know Sonny's not real Sonny, it's a character name, but there was a guy.

• 20:53Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 20:53Billy Corgan?

  The, the wise guy, but.

• 20:58Billy Corgan?

  I loved what you said because you were, somebody was trying to pin you down on, on the characters and you said, well, in a way, it's not black or white, it's both characters are gray.

• 21:08Speaker 03

  Yes, yes. I mean, Sonny, I always say this to people. Sonny was a bad guy. I mean, he was a tough guy. And he was a bad, he'd kill you. He, he was the head, he was a boss. He had people killed, no question. And he could be vicious, but he was very funny. And he, and for some reason, for some ungodly reason that I don't know, and it was my theory years later, that I thought it was his way of, his penance in life was, if I do anything right, I'm going to help this kid. So he, he was just like, leave the kid, he's a good kid. For some reason, he saw something in me.

• 21:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 21:53Speaker 03

  You know, that I was a good guy. So he never said, he told me the same things that my father told me. But because of who he was, my father didn't want me to hang around with him.

• 22:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:05Speaker 03

  Because he was afraid I'd be influenced. And he was right.

• 22:08Billy Corgan?

  But you know, like even, I remember, because I used to live in, we're filming this in New York. I lived in New York in the early 2000s. And I remember there was articles coming out about the Russian mob.

• 22:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:18Billy Corgan?

  Kind of taking over New York.

• 22:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:21Billy Corgan?

  And one of the things they were talking about was that the Russian mob didn't operate the same way the old families operated.

• 22:27Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 22:27Billy Corgan?

  With honor.

• 22:28Speaker 03

  With honor, yes.

• 22:29Billy Corgan?

  And, and it's in, of course, it's in some of the mob movies where you, you never go after the family of the.

• 22:34Speaker 03

  Never.

• 22:34Billy Corgan?

  It's always just between the guys.

• 22:36Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:36Billy Corgan?

  I mean, you leave the families out.

• 22:38Speaker 03

  Leave the family out.

• 22:38Billy Corgan?

  Where the Russian mob had come in and they didn't have those old school.

• 22:42Speaker 03

  No, it was all bets are off.

• 22:43Billy Corgan?

  So, so again, back to the question.

• 22:45Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:46Billy Corgan?

  Do, do, do, do you see a code of honor there? Do you still see it as honorable, knowing all that you know in hindsight?

• 22:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. Okay. That's, it's, see, that's what makes these stories so interesting.

• 22:59Speaker 03

  The old time wise guys did a thing of honor where they wouldn't shoot, they wouldn't kill a man in front of his family.

• 23:08Billy Corgan?

  Which is, stop for a second, it's so barbaric, right? But yet, like, on a level we still resonate, oh, it's kind of nice.

• 23:14Speaker 03

  It's kind of nice, right? See, that's what, I mean, but it's still, it's still barbaric, you know?

• 23:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying, we, we somehow, we.

• 23:23Speaker 03

  You know, you, if a man cheated, if a man flirted or went to seduce another man's wife in the mob, death, death, that's it, death, you know?

• 23:35Billy Corgan?

  Even if he was a made guy?

• 23:37Speaker 03

  Oh, if a made guy went, went another made guy's wife, death. That's it.

• 23:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, no questions asked.

• 23:46Speaker 03

  No questions asked, you don't hurt his children, no questions asked. I've seen, the old time guys, as the new years came, they started to break that thing.

• 23:57Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 23:57Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, so let's, let's be real here, you know, a lot of them go like to hear when I say that.

• 24:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 24:03Speaker 03

  But the guys from the, you know, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, even seventies stood by the honor. Around the mid eighties, some of those guys, they didn't follow the creed so much. Not all of them, but some.

• 24:20Billy Corgan?

  Do you miss the world that you grew up in?

• 24:25Billy Corgan?

  Because obviously, we're living in a much different world now.

• 24:27Speaker 03

  Do I miss it?

• 24:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 24:28Speaker 03

  I, I, I, I love that I grew up in it, I had a great childhood, I really did. I had an amazing childhood. Did I see this man kill a man right in front of me at nine years old? Yes. But did I see things?

• 24:47Billy Corgan?

  And, and know things?

• 24:49Speaker 03

  And know things that a, that a young boy should not know?

• 24:52Billy Corgan?

  Because even.

• 24:53Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 24:54Billy Corgan?

  And correct me if I'm wrong, I mean, after you saw this man be murdered when you were nine years old,

• 24:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 24:59Billy Corgan?

  that's at the foundation of the Bronx Tale is, is you knew enough to not rat the guy out?

• 25:05Speaker 03

  Absolutely. I was almost 10. I was close to being 10, but I was.

• 25:09Billy Corgan?

  But still, I was nine. Go, go out on the street right now and look at a nine or 10 year old boy.

• 25:13Speaker 03

  No, no, no.

• 25:14Billy Corgan?

  And imagine thinking that boy has enough of a sense of the world that he, he has to stick by a code of ethics that he didn't invent.

• 25:20Speaker 03

  My son.

• 25:23Speaker 03

  Who was, when he was 10, almost 10, I looked at him when we were celebrating his birthday. And I turned to my wife, Jana, and I said, I said, do you know, I, I, look at, look at Dante. I said, I was that age when I saw this. And he was so far removed from that world.

• 25:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:42Speaker 03

  You know, he was born into a very good world. He was born into a life, a good life.

• 25:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:48Speaker 03

  And he was so far removed from that. So I said to her, I said, I gotta teach him as much street as I possibly can.

• 25:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:56Speaker 03

  You know, but, but it was, that wasn't just me. We all knew that at that age. All my friends knew that.

• 26:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:02Speaker 03

  All of us.

• 26:04Billy Corgan?

  But if you think about it, I mean, and I'm a different generation, but again, I grew up in the same world tangentially.

• 26:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:13Billy Corgan?

  It was a far more barbaric world in many ways.

• 26:17Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 26:18Billy Corgan?

  And, and in many ways it was more clanish, you know?

• 26:21Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 26:21Billy Corgan?

  The Italians, the Germans, you know, in Chicago, we had the Swedes and, you know, but it was,

• 26:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:26Billy Corgan?

  it was, it was.

• 26:27Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 26:27Billy Corgan?

  It was rooted down in this kind of tribal factionalism.

• 26:30Speaker 03

  By bar, barbaric, by bar is a great word. I mean, everything that we learned back then was sex was different. You know, it wasn't, you know, a play date and you meet a girl. It was, it was like, the, the wise guys ran a whorehouse, you know, a bordello. And as we grow old, they said, hey, man, go, you know, do this for us and.

• 26:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, we'll hook you up, yeah.

• 26:58Speaker 03

  We'll hook you up, one of the girl, then you go in there and a young kid, you know?

• 27:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:02Speaker 03

  But, you know, and I, I, look, it's, it's who I am and I'm, it made me the writer that I am. And people always said, the best writers experience life.

• 27:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:16Speaker 03

  So one day, and my son, who was very, very bright. My daughter too, both of them went to great schools. And he said to me once, he goes, Dad, you know, maybe the way you grew up is because of the way you feel sometimes. Because sometimes I don't, I don't get, I don't feel things like other people feel like.

• 27:36Billy Corgan?

  Can you, can you elaborate that a little bit?

• 27:39Speaker 03

  Like if something happens, I'll just go, hey, you know, fuck it, you know, it's the way it goes, you know, fuck it. You know, and he'll go, yeah, but Dad, this happened.

• 27:47Billy Corgan?

  But that's kind of what I'm after is.

• 27:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:49Billy Corgan?

  Because we grew up in these more barbaric subcultures.

• 27:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:54Billy Corgan?

  We tend to look at life in a different way, but we don't realize on some level it's the result of trauma.

• 28:00Speaker 03

  Without a doubt, without a doubt.

• 28:03Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 28:04Speaker 03

  Without a shadow of a doubt, and it took my son to bring that up to me. And I went, I never thought of that. And I've been in therapy for years.

• 28:14Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 28:15Speaker 03

  You know, but no one's.

• 28:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because I have this theory, and I'm using this term loosely, but you know, those who grew up, of us who grew up, you know, as products or byproducts of the immigrant classes.

• 28:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:30Billy Corgan?

  That, that sort of defined America in the, in the 20th century. Because if you grew up in a city like Chicago or New York, you know, you know, would be the Italians over here, the Irish over there, you know? And I'm Irish and Italian, you know what I mean? So I'd, but I'd hear about it from both ways, you know, both sides of the family. And, and I remember one time there was this situation where I was at school and the teacher said, okay, you need to go to your grandparents and ask them where their family comes from, country of origin type stuff, you know, immigrant stuff.

• 29:04Speaker 03

  Right.

• 29:05Billy Corgan?

  And, you know, I went to my, my paternal grandmother and she said, oh, well, you know, we're, we're Irish and, and we came over, you know, because of the potato famines in the 1800s and we settled in Kentucky. And, you know, they gave me the basic origin story of that side of the family. I went to my maternal grandmother, who was Sicilian, I think you're Sicilian.

• 29:26Speaker 03

  I was Sicilian, yes.

• 29:28Billy Corgan?

  And, you know, looked the part, swarthy olive skin, wiry hair. I mean, she's central casting grandma from Italy.

• 29:37Speaker 03

  Right.

• 29:38Billy Corgan?

  Wasn't born in Italy, but still spoke with an Italian accent.

• 29:41Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 29:42Billy Corgan?

  The, the whole thing, right? Chicago version. And I said, you know. You know, where's our family?

• 29:50Speaker 03

  Right.

• 29:50Billy Corgan?

  Your family from? I don't want to talk about it. So what do you mean you don't want to talk about it? I said, I know you're Italian, but give me something for the, because I gotta fill this paper out. I was about 10 years old.

• 30:01Speaker 03

  Right.

• 30:02Billy Corgan?

  And she said, I'm American now.

• 30:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:06Billy Corgan?

  I'm American now. So here she is talk, talking with an accent, cooking Italian food, talking about the old country and the traditions. But in her mind, there was this shame of, and then when I got to my grandfather, uh, who at that point was deceased, her former husband, she didn't want to tell me where his family was from.

• 30:28Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 30:29Billy Corgan?

  Like, I couldn't even get it out of her. I was like, they had to come from somewhere.

• 30:34Speaker 03

  Right.

• 30:34Billy Corgan?

  It was obviously European. Wouldn't tell me.

• 30:37Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 30:38Billy Corgan?

  Because it was this thing.

• 30:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, when they came, when we came here, when my grandparents came here, they wanted to be American. I mean, that's why I don't speak Italian.

• 30:48Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 30:49Speaker 03

  Cause my parents would only speak Italian when they didn't want us to know anything.

• 30:55Billy Corgan?

  I love it.

• 30:55Speaker 03

  And they said, and my grandfather said, no, we don't speak Italian anymore. We, we're American now.

• 31:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 31:02Speaker 03

  That's the way it was.

• 31:03Billy Corgan?

  So because it's such a part of your life and the characters you've played and then obviously this incredible work that you made.

• 31:14Billy Corgan?

  How do you view that now as, as, as we've talked about a little bit, that, that world's really starting to fall away?

• 31:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:22Billy Corgan?

  And I don't mean just times change. We grew up in cultures that were very racially identified with

• 31:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:29Billy Corgan?

  country of origin. We were joking before we started taping about how Columbus Day is back.

• 31:35Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 31:35Billy Corgan?

  You know, Columbus was out, now he's back.

• 31:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:39Billy Corgan?

  You know, it's, um, I guess what I'm after is, uh, there's been so much talk about culture and in the social fabric of America.

• 31:49Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 31:49Billy Corgan?

  But the world we both grew up in, obviously, again, different generations, but these were, these were, it was a given. Like, if you were Italian, you were Italian and you thought like this and you cared like this, and this was the code of honor, and somebody knew a wise guy and they'd make jokes. And if you were Italian, it was this and, you know, whatever, that even the Don Rickles and the kind of humor that we would see on television.

• 32:11Speaker 03

  Oh, God, yeah.

• 32:12Billy Corgan?

  Like, that's all kind of gone away. And I'm not waxing romantic about it. I'm saying is, do you look back sentimentally on it?

• 32:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, I do. And I hope that it doesn't totally go away.

• 32:23Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 32:23Speaker 03

  I really do. I hope. I, I, I really believe that each

• 32:31Speaker 03

  each ethnic um, uh, whatever, each people, the Italians, that we should keep some of our culture to learn where we come from. I don't like the feeling of globalism, everybody the same, everybody milking in with each other. And that, does that make me sound racist? Of course I'm not racist. But I enjoy my roots of being Italian. And I enjoy meeting people who are Irish and tell me about their culture. I enjoy different cultures. I like that.

• 33:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I think it's, I don't know, it's not, it's not a, an identity thing as much as I think everybody should celebrate their ancestors.

• 33:13Speaker 03

  Their ancestors, yes. I do. I believe that.

• 33:16Billy Corgan?

  Because without them and their journey, we wouldn't be like, you know, we've had great lives.

• 33:21Speaker 03

  Great lives. I've had a great, and we

• 33:24Billy Corgan?

  Like, wouldn't it make them happy to know that

• 33:26Speaker 03

  Right.

• 33:27Billy Corgan?

  the dirt that they came from, somehow we end up in nice houses and

• 33:30Speaker 03

  Yes. I mean,

• 33:33Billy Corgan?

  Your, your father was a bus driver.

• 33:35Speaker 03

  My father was a bus driver.

• 33:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, right? I mean, that's, that's right there in the American middle, right? You know?

• 33:40Speaker 03

  Oh, well, with the middle. I mean, my father didn't make, we didn't have much money growing up there and you know, there's a line I say, I had a cash and empty soda bottles to buy a half a pound of chopped meat. My father did that.

• 33:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 33:54Speaker 03

  You know, uh, we, but they always make sure, but I never felt that we were poor. Because everybody was like us back then. We were all the same.

• 34:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:03Speaker 03

  But I never felt like we were poor, but my mother and father struggled their whole lives. Not their whole lives, the last 25 years when I became famous and I

• 34:14Speaker 03

  and my sisters became very successful. We all helped them. The last 25 years of their life were beautiful. Beautiful, you know?

• 34:25Billy Corgan?

  Let's go back to the movie now. Now you're now you're actually making a real movie with a real budget and a great star and De Niro. And

• 34:36Billy Corgan?

  I don't, I don't, I don't want to be as trite as talk about that experience, but like

• 34:40Speaker 03

  No, it was great.

• 34:41Billy Corgan?

  But I'm more interested in the, in the, you go from literally the guy who Swifty Lazar is getting fired.

• 34:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:47Billy Corgan?

  So now you're on a

• 34:49Speaker 03

  It was pretty amazing.

• 34:50Billy Corgan?

  Right? I mean,

• 34:51Speaker 03

  It was pretty amazing. I remember.

• 34:52Billy Corgan?

  And you, by the way, no, no, no disrespect, you weren't a young buck at that point. You were

• 34:56Speaker 03

  No, I was almost 40.

• 34:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So you've been riding that dream for a while.

• 35:01Speaker 03

  I was riding that dream, but I wouldn't give up. I wouldn't give up. I just wouldn't give up, you know? I remember there I was.

• 35:13Speaker 03

  It was like the most amazing, I remember the first time it really hit me was when De Niro said, when we had, we went to Europe, I went with him to Europe. And we, we got on a private plane and he said,

• 35:28Speaker 03

  I want to go there and what you want to come with me because we became friends. And I said, yeah. He says, come on, come with me, you know? I'm going to Paris. And I said, great. All right. I'll go with you. And we got on a private jet and it was just him and him and me, you know? And I remember as we were flying, you know, he went to sleep on his bed. There was a, and then there was a bed there and I and I went to, I laid in bed and in the middle of the night, I remember I leaned over and I looked and, and he was sleeping and I was like, what the?

• 36:05Speaker 03

  Not too long ago, I was like trying to get water for my car. And I was really, even though I mean, I was known as I was somewhat in the business as a really good actor, but I wasn't famous at all. And now my life is changing, you know?

• 36:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I mean, you could have been a character actor.

• 36:25Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 36:26Billy Corgan?

  Forever.

• 36:26Speaker 03

  Forever. And I got up, I remember in the middle of the night because I was hungry and I, and there was a butler there and he was just sitting there reading. He, he couldn't sleep because he only read in case we needed something.

• 36:39Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 36:41Speaker 03

  And I, I didn't know, it was the first time I was on a private jet. And I just said, you have any like, you have any potato chips of finger food? You know, I was, I was hungry. And he said, oh, Mr. Pum Tari, you want breakfast? And I went, breakfast? And he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, he said, well, I'll make you, make the table. He made the table and clothed, he put a rose on it. I'm like, what the? And I, I get up, I said, you got a table, Billy? He goes, I make you some eggs and French toast? And I went, yeah. Okay. And I had eggs and French toast and anything, want anything else? And I said, no, no, I'm good. He said, okay. I finished, he, I got up, he said, no, no, I'll, I'll take care of it.

• 37:26Speaker 03

  And I went back to bed and I was like, wow.

• 37:30Billy Corgan?

  You get used to it real fast though.

• 37:32Speaker 03

  You get used to it. See, my son always says that he goes, dad, he doesn't know, you know how it is?

• 37:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:37Speaker 03

  I'm sure for you too. You know, you're used to certain way you be treated.

• 37:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:42Speaker 03

  You don't, you're always nice to people, but you're used to not waiting for, you know, you're used to certain things. And my, my son always goes, dad, do you pay people to do everything for you? And I go, yes. He goes, can't you do it yourself? I go, no. I guess I could, but I don't want to do it myself. See what I mean? He knows.

• 38:00Billy Corgan?

  My son, uh, uh, my, I have a son, he's almost 10 and uh, he's my eldest and I was driving one day and he said,

• 38:09Billy Corgan?

  Dad, can I ask you a question? He always says, can I ask you a question first, always? And I said, sure. And he goes, um, so if you know buying me a toy makes me happy and you can afford to buy me a toy every day, why don't you buy me a toy every day?

• 38:24Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 38:25Billy Corgan?

  I thought, what a beautiful question.

• 38:26Speaker 03

  Beautiful question.

• 38:27Billy Corgan?

  And I said, well, that's true. I could buy your toy every day and not even sweat the money.

• 38:33Speaker 03

  Right.

• 38:34Billy Corgan?

  And I said, but the thing is, I want you to understand that daddy didn't grow up like that.

• 38:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 38:39Billy Corgan?

  And I don't want you to lose perspective.

• 38:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 38:41Billy Corgan?

  On what this all costs. Cause when I go away on tour and when daddy's in the studio all day or whatever, that's the cost of that. And if you don't understand that, you won't really understand what this is all about.

• 38:53Speaker 03

  Right. That's right.

• 38:55Billy Corgan?

  And, and you know, I'm sure you've seen it. We've all been around the children of famous people who are like.

• 39:01Speaker 03

  Whoa, yeah, yeah. And my, thank God, not going with.

• 39:04Billy Corgan?

  Your children seem all right.

• 39:06Speaker 03

  My kids are like, look, automatically they're going to be spoiled though. No matter what you think, your child is 10, mine is 30. They get spoiled just from being around us.

• 39:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:20Speaker 03

  They do. But you just don't want it over the top.

• 39:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:24Speaker 03

  My son would say, Dad, why can't, when he was like 10, 11, why can't I have that?

• 39:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:28Speaker 03

  I would say, it's too expensive.

• 39:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:31Speaker 03

  And he would say, oh, but he was a real slicker. He was like, I guess we can't afford it.

• 39:38Speaker 03

  And I said, no, I can't afford it.

• 39:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:41Speaker 03

  But I'm not buying it because it's too expensive.

• 39:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So your parents did see the film when it came out?

• 39:48Speaker 03

  Yes, my parents saw all my success. You know, and it was, actually, you know, I wrote the play, then I wrote the movie, then I wrote the musical.

• 39:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:56Speaker 03

  You know, and all three were very successful and it's been.

• 40:00Billy Corgan?

  How did the, how did the old neighborhood take it when it came out?

• 40:05Speaker 03

  Which one?

• 40:06Billy Corgan?

  The movie, yeah.

• 40:07Speaker 03

  The movie? Oh, they loved it. They, they all loved it. I mean, their people just loved it. As long as I changed the names.

• 40:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 40:15Speaker 03

  The only name I didn't change was Eddie Mush, because that was Eddie Mush.

• 40:19Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 40:19Speaker 03

  That was the real Eddie Mush in the movie.

• 40:21Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 40:22Speaker 03

  So I didn't change his name because.

• 40:24Billy Corgan?

  What a great name.

• 40:25Speaker 03

  That was his name.

• 40:26Billy Corgan?

  I mean, wow.

• 40:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:28Billy Corgan?

  Um.

• 40:35Billy Corgan?

  So, correct me if I'm wrong.

• 40:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:37Billy Corgan?

  The wise guy that Sonny is based on.

• 40:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:41Billy Corgan?

  Was Big John, is that true, or did I read that wrong?

• 40:46Speaker 03

  John what?

• 40:46Billy Corgan?

  I.

• 40:47Speaker 03

  No, that's not him. That's wrong.

• 40:48Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 40:49Speaker 03

  That was.

• 40:49Billy Corgan?

  Have you ever said who?

• 40:50Speaker 03

  Never.

• 40:51Billy Corgan?

  You never said who Sonny's based on?

• 40:53Speaker 03

  No, no.

• 40:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I read it somewhere, so that's why I asked.

• 40:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I saw that article. No, that's, I know the John, I forgot the guy's name.

• 40:59Billy Corgan?

  Like Big John something, something.

• 41:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, no, it's not based on him.

• 41:03Billy Corgan?

  Without revealing any names, did the, did the, did the family of that guy, or did that guy ever kind of come back around and say, I see what you did there, and I liked it, I didn't like it, or? Was any offense taken, or was?

• 41:15Speaker 03

  No, no offense was taken. As long as I didn't use the name.

• 41:18Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 41:19Speaker 03

  I was told that from the very beginning. Because in the, I shouldn't say that. Wait a minute, in the very beginning, I had some real names in it. And then I got a phone call.

• 41:31Billy Corgan?

  From somebody?

• 41:31Speaker 03

  From somebody, and he said, I know you're doing this play, it was, it was right away, too, like after about, as soon as it hit, after about two, three weeks.

• 41:41Speaker 03

  I got a phone call saying, you know, certain people, they heard about this, yada, yada, I hope, I was like, I hope you're not using any real names. And I was like, I took it as, don't use the names. So I said, no, I said, I got some in, but I'm, I'm gonna take them out, and I took them out.

• 41:59Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 42:00Speaker 03

  And we're not, it was nice about it.

• 42:02Billy Corgan?

  But nobody ever sort of came back and said, like, gave their own take on it?

• 42:06Speaker 03

  No.

• 42:07Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 42:07Speaker 03

  No, I remember when they saw it, when I first did it, and they saw it in New York, and a lot of them sat in the very first rows, you know, they just sat there like this. And, and it's a very funny show, and they laughed, they smiled, but they weren't laughing, laughing. And then they wanted to come backstage, and I was like, oh. And they came backstage, and they said, no, they love it.

• 42:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, cuz when, uh, when I started telling, my, my father's passed away, but towards the end of my father's life, I started telling some of the stories that I'd never told. I told one on Joe Rogan.

• 42:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:40Billy Corgan?

  About, um, finding a shotgun under his bed. The quick version of the story was, my father was a musician, and I was told I could look at his guitars, but I couldn't touch them. I noticed a new case under the bed, I go under the bed, I flip the case open, and it's a double barrel shotgun.

• 42:56Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 42:57Billy Corgan?

  And I told this story on Joe Rogan. And about a month later, my father must have seen the episode and he texted me and said, I saw what you said on Joe Rogan. And I thought, oh, he's gonna, he's gonna be hot that I gave away this, one of these stories. And, and I'm waiting, you know, you're waiting for the text to come back. And he goes, you got something about that story wrong. And I'm saying, okay, I'm waiting, waiting for the text. He goes, the shotgun wasn't loaded. So he didn't refute that I found a shotgun. He's just said it wasn't loaded.

• 43:27Speaker 03

  Nah, I don't buy it. I don't believe him.

• 43:30Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's what I'm saying. Because I, what I didn't tell, or maybe I did, it was like, in the other parts of the bedroom, there was another five or six guns up on the shelf. And there was always, there was always drugs everywhere. There was always people knocking on the house in the middle of night coming for God knows what.

• 43:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, let's see. Well, cause my father was a law abiding guy. There was, but they were Sicilian. So they were, uh, uh, my grandmother and my mother, they were, I, a, a, a quick story.

• 43:55Billy Corgan?

  Sure, please.

• 43:57Speaker 03

  Very quick. And, and that is, my grandmother once asked me, she said, I need some ice cubes. Get me some ice cubes. And I, I, I was, cause they lived below us. The apartment below us. And I went over and I, I opened up the refrigerator and at that time, they had the ice cubes where you had to pull the thing.

• 44:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And it would never work. It was always stuck.

• 44:17Speaker 03

  So I went to pull it. She goes, no, don't touch that one. And I said, what's the matter, grandma? She goes, no, no, not that one. Get that one there. And I, I looked at the ice. I said, what the, why can't I use this one? And I looked and I saw pieces of paper coming out from the ice. I said, and then I just used the one. I didn't say nothing. So when I went upstairs to see my mother, I said, mom, I said, I was getting some ice out of grandma's thing. And I saw, I went to get the ice with the pieces of, she goes, you didn't touch that, did you? I, I said, no, no, grandma told me not to touch. I go, what is that? She goes, my father, her father, my grandfather, when he didn't like somebody.

• 44:59Billy Corgan?

  He'd freeze them.

• 44:59Speaker 03

  He would write their name and he would put it in the ice cube and he would freeze them. In other words, a vendetta. So their, their, their life was frozen. They could never go anywhere ahead. They could never get another promotion, success. Nothing could ever happen to them. And there was all these papers and all that. And I was like, oh.

• 45:22Billy Corgan?

  That's some old country.

• 45:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:26Billy Corgan?

  Just a quick thing back on, let's, it's not versus, but Sonny on one side and Lorenzo on the other.

• 45:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:36Billy Corgan?

  You know, because you've done this play 1,061 times of our, of our taping today.

• 45:44Billy Corgan?

  Have you, have you, have you changed in your perspective of the character? Cause when you wrote them, you were a younger man.

• 45:51Speaker 03

  Yes. That's a question I get asked a lot.

• 45:53Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay. Interesting. Yeah.

• 45:54Speaker 03

  Yes, I get that question.

• 45:55Billy Corgan?

  I try not to ask questions that people ask.

• 45:57Speaker 03

  No, that's the first one that you asked that. Yes. And the big perspective was when I first did it, I wasn't married and I had no children. So when I first did it, I, I related more from the boy to the father.

• 46:12Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 46:13Speaker 03

  When I would do the show and I was talking as the young nine year old, it was, it was always like me as this little boy talking to my father. But then when I became a father and my son was born, I started to relate more to the father, to the son, to the boy. And, and the play just became better because I was, because both character, characters were really rich. Cause I was a father and I was a young boy.

• 46:39Billy Corgan?

  It has your perspective on the Sonny character, obviously based on real things, not totally, but has that changed?

• 46:48Speaker 03

  No, no, not really. No, I, I, sometimes it gets mixed where

• 46:55Speaker 03

  when I do, when I do Sonny, I go, it's almost like I'm talking as Chaz and Sonny, you know, as an adult. And then I, I adopted, I adopted Sonny's philosophy myself, you know?

• 47:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 47:10Speaker 03

  Cause he, he had a very street philosophy that was, that was really good. He was the one who told me about Machiavelli, you know, and that's when I started reading Machiavelli. And as I got old, I started really reading it and I started studying Machiavelli and reading it.

• 47:27Billy Corgan?

  Because we've all known that guy, you would say to yourself, I'm not saying you tell me, but. This is my impression. We've all known that guy say, man, if that guy had only put himself in business.

• 47:38Speaker 03

  Oh, definitely.

• 47:40Billy Corgan?

  Like, this was a genius.

• 47:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:42Billy Corgan?

  But he's a genius, crime.

• 47:44Speaker 03

  It's crime.

• 47:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 47:45Speaker 03

  But if he, but if he could really adapt himself, he'd be a great CEO. He was a great, because he was fun, he was smart, but he had the things that Mafia of Don's crave for.

• 48:01Speaker 03

  Smart, cunning, but, and big balls. So he had everything.

• 48:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I told my daddy once, I said, you know, you made a, there's a reason you made a poor criminal. And he said, why is that? And I said, you just didn't have the nerve.

• 48:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. Guys like that, they, instead of going into the mafia, they take those guys and they put them in like, you know, Navy SEALs or like CIA. You know, smart and big balls. Those guys are hard to find.

• 48:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 48:36Billy Corgan?

  Coming off the success of the movie, and it was box office success, and it was certainly a critical success. And now it's a cult, a cult classic, what is it? I guess you'd call it a classic. I mean.

• 48:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, true.

• 48:50Billy Corgan?

  Did you, were you more drawn at that moment in your life to, to pursuing being a screenwriter and a, and a basically a creator type? Or, or did you want to sort of balance it against your acting?

• 49:00Speaker 03

  Both, I wanted to balance it, yes.

• 49:02Billy Corgan?

  But was the idea to sort of personalize projects since you'd already done that? Cause I know you made a movie with Cher.

• 49:08Speaker 03

  With Cher, yes. I wrote that and I wrote other plays and I wrote, I did a lot of rewriting for movies.

• 49:14Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 49:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. I was always good, I was good at like, I'm just good at looking at a script and knowing what's wrong with it.

• 49:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. But in terms of your own, because Faithful has an interesting setup, you know, another kind of mob related type of thing.

• 49:29Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 49:29Billy Corgan?

  But it wasn't a success at the box office.

• 49:31Speaker 03

  It wasn't, no.

• 49:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 49:33Speaker 03

  No, but it's, it's a success as a play.

• 49:35Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 49:36Speaker 03

  It's done all over the world. Yeah.

• 49:38Billy Corgan?

  Was it a play before the movie?

• 49:40Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 49:40Billy Corgan?

  I couldn't find any information on that.

• 49:42Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 49:42Billy Corgan?

  I looked and looked and looked.

• 49:43Speaker 03

  It was a play in L A.

• 49:45Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 49:45Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 49:46Billy Corgan?

  So same setup. You got the play going.

• 49:47Speaker 03

  Same setup, exactly the same.

• 49:49Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay. So it's still working as a play. Interesting.

• 49:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, I different spots.

• 49:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, no, I get that. But I'm but I'm saying is I was just trying to understand because I'm always interested in why people make certain decisions.

• 49:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:00Billy Corgan?

  And sometimes, you know, like in the case of Swifty Lazar.

• 50:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:04Billy Corgan?

  He gets you fired. You make a decision and it changes your life. You know, but on, you know, because did you ever get another movie made as a screenwriter as to like your own, like your own project?

• 50:14Speaker 03

  My own, no.

• 50:16Billy Corgan?

  What did they tell? You must have gone forward with other ideas and did they?

• 50:20Speaker 03

  I did. I sell other movies?

• 50:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 50:22Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 50:22Billy Corgan?

  Oh, you sold stuff and then they just didn't get made?

• 50:24Speaker 03

  It didn't get made.

• 50:25Billy Corgan?

  Oh, did they give you good? What were the reasons why? Or just typical Hollywood stuff?

• 50:29Speaker 03

  It's just I sold stuff. I made a lot of money, but it doesn't get made.

• 50:34Billy Corgan?

  Huh.

• 50:35Speaker 03

  It's really hard to get a movie made.

• 50:37Billy Corgan?

  Absolutely.

• 50:38Speaker 03

  It is so. People don't realize to get a movie made is like, oh, my God.

• 50:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 50:45Speaker 03

  You could sell those actors. There's writers in Hollywood that have been there for 25 years, never got a movie made.

• 50:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah, I knew a producer once and I said, I got this idea for a movie. And so she said, Oh, come on in, have a meeting with him. Just pitch me like that's all I do all days. People pitch me.

• 51:00Speaker 03

  Pitch, yeah.

• 51:01Billy Corgan?

  And within 10 minutes of me rattling away, I could just see her doing the math in her brain. I thought I got no shot. I could see it dying right as I was talking.

• 51:09Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 51:10Billy Corgan?

  Because I was.

• 51:11Speaker 03

  Well, I've done that, yeah.

• 51:12Billy Corgan?

  No, but the beautiful thing is, is I because I was in her office, I saw the movie through her eyes, not mine.

• 51:17Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 51:17Billy Corgan?

  In my eyes, it was beautiful and it was amazing and cool and and she's sitting there thinking, I can't get this thing made.

• 51:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:26Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean?

• 51:27Speaker 03

  And the more artsy it is.

• 51:29Billy Corgan?

  Oh, forget about it. Forget about it.

• 51:31Speaker 03

  Get out. I remember once I pitched a thing with my friend, a great writer, friend of mine, Tony Spurdock, who's a wonderful writer.

• 51:39Billy Corgan?

  There's a name.

• 51:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, a great guy.

• 51:42Billy Corgan?

  I was I I got.

• 51:43Speaker 03

  And he's the only he's the only person I could ever write with. I wrote, I mostly write alone. But I I would write with him, but we got a couple some movies made. And I remember we pitched another movie to a very big agent. And I mean, five minutes into it.

• 52:02Speaker 03

  Tony just looks at him and says, you hate it, right? And he went, yeah. We said, okay. And we just got up and we walked out. I'll never forget that. He went, yeah, yeah, I hate it. And we went, okay.

• 52:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:14Speaker 03

  I guess that's it. And we got up and we left.

• 52:16Billy Corgan?

  When you, when you, because, you know, we know how Holly works. You, you become the guy. You know what I mean?

• 52:22Speaker 03

  Sure, yeah.

• 52:24Billy Corgan?

  When, when our mutual friend Chuck LaBella, who books the show.

• 52:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:29Billy Corgan?

  Mentions you, uh, he, he said your name and your name didn't register in my brain.

• 52:34Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 52:34Billy Corgan?

  Just on just name. And, and, and then he sent a picture of you and I was like, oh, I know him.

• 52:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 52:39Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean?

• 52:40Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 52:40Billy Corgan?

  You know, it's like, uh, Andrew Dice Clay always says, the face.

• 52:44Speaker 03

  It's the face.

• 52:44Billy Corgan?

  The face.

• 52:45Speaker 03

  The face, right.

• 52:47Billy Corgan?

  Did you, did, were you okay with being typecast? Some people get fussy about that.

• 52:52Speaker 03

  I wasn't fussy about it, but you look, I, I get typecast as the, as the mafia guy or the cop or the tough guy, but I've played other roles.

• 53:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 53:01Speaker 03

  That I, uh, usual suspects, I played, uh, the agent. You know, it was a great movie.

• 53:07Billy Corgan?

  What's the furthest, what's the role that you've played that was the furthest away from the, these kind of typecast roles that you thought, okay, this is interesting?

• 53:14Speaker 03

  Oh, wow. That's a real good question. The furthest away.

• 53:21Speaker 03

  I, I, I.

• 53:22Billy Corgan?

  Nothing comes to mind?

• 53:23Speaker 03

  Nothing. I played a Jewish guy in a movie called, uh, One Let, Once With Feeling, I think. I played a Jewish guy, but, and he was kind of a, you know, quiet kind of guy.

• 53:36Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 53:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:37Billy Corgan?

  That's very different than your personality.

• 53:39Speaker 03

  Yeah. Guide to recognizing his saints was different.

• 53:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 53:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:45Billy Corgan?

  I saw something you said where you said, I, I tell my kids all the time, or I, this is, if I want, I think it was, if I want my kids to know anything, I'm probably paraphrasing, but it was, time is precious.

• 53:56Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 53:57Billy Corgan?

  Can you, can you, can you dive into that a bit?

• 54:00Speaker 03

  Well, I, I always, look, you don't know your old until you're old.

• 54:07Speaker 03

  You know.

• 54:09Billy Corgan?

  Can I quote you on?

• 54:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I always used to say that. You know, you don't know your old to your old.

• 54:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, you wake up one day and you're like, wow.

• 54:18Speaker 03

  And you also you look at you look in the mirror and you go, fuck, I look like my father.

• 54:23Billy Corgan?

  That too.

• 54:24Speaker 03

  You know, and these certain things that you just feel and I go, you know, it's a cliche, Billy, I wish I knew then what I know now. Everybody says that, you know?

• 54:34Billy Corgan?

  Youth is wasted on the young.

• 54:35Speaker 03

  Youth is wasted on the young, you know, Bernard Shaw said that. So I tell my son, listen to me, listen, listen carefully. Don't waste this time. And you know what? And I, he does exactly what I would have done, what I did. Yeah, yeah, dad, dad, please.

• 54:51Billy Corgan?

  I got it.

• 54:51Speaker 03

  I got it, I got it. I go, no.

• 54:54Billy Corgan?

  And both your kids have gone in the arts, yes?

• 54:55Speaker 03

  Yes, and both really, thank God, they're very, very talented.

• 55:00Billy Corgan?

  In your mind, was that a natural inclination that they just both had?

• 55:03Speaker 03

  They just wanted to do it, you know? My son, you know, was in a rock band and he loved to act. He was in school plays. And I said, look, if you get into like great schools, then you, you know, you could do it. And my son got into Berklee in Boston, a school of music. You know, singer songwriter and he studied acting at a great school. My daughter got into the University of Michigan, another great school. They only took like a 12 girls and they took her, you know, so they're very talented. But see, people think that you could just put your kids and make them stars.

• 55:40Billy Corgan?

  Oh, no.

• 55:40Speaker 03

  No, no.

• 55:42Billy Corgan?

  The name's only gonna get them.

• 55:43Speaker 03

  The name will get you maybe.

• 55:44Billy Corgan?

  A block.

• 55:45Speaker 03

  I can get you in the door, maybe.

• 55:47Billy Corgan?

  And you're on your own.

• 55:47Speaker 03

  Maybe I can say, could you see my son? And you know what? Sometimes that's a negative.

• 55:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:53Speaker 03

  Because they're like this, oh, Jesus. So now you gotta be twice as good as everybody else.

• 55:59Billy Corgan?

  Absolutely. It's a tough, it's a tough thing.

• 56:02Speaker 03

  It's a tough thing. It's a tough, but you know what? I have faith in them, they're very talented. And I try to explain to them, it's just 100 no's and one yes. That's what it is.

• 56:16Billy Corgan?

  I know it's been a while and I'm sure you've been asked a thousand times, but I'm just curious more from an emotional point of view.

• 56:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:23Billy Corgan?

  If you had your druthers, would you have made a sequel to A Bronx Tale? If you had gotten it your way with the right budget and the right people, would you have done it? Because I'm sure people waved it in front of your eyes.

• 56:33Speaker 03

  Constantly, constantly. I just never had a great story after that.

• 56:37Billy Corgan?

  Did you feel that you just didn't have a good take on it?

• 56:39Speaker 03

  I didn't have a good take on it, Bill. I said, okay, so I left the neighborhood. And then I went out and I got into a rock band. What I do believe is I have a, I've written a movie and maybe one day I'll make it. It's about a movie, how I made Bronx Tale.

• 56:58Billy Corgan?

  That's cool. I like that.

• 56:59Speaker 03

  That I think maybe people would be interested in.

• 57:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:03Speaker 03

  But I left, I left the neighborhood and I went to college. Oh, who gives a, you know, what the, my first 18 years was like a really unique life.

• 57:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:13Speaker 03

  After that, what, I became famous in a movie.

• 57:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:18Speaker 03

  You know?

• 57:20Billy Corgan?

  Sorry, I'm just trying to read my poor hand.

• 57:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, it's all right.

• 57:26Speaker 03

  My son used to say, nobody cares. Just, nobody cares. Don't worry about it. Nobody cares.

• 57:39Billy Corgan?

  Is it true you're a Roman Catholic?

• 57:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 57:41Billy Corgan?

  So I was raised Roman Catholic too.

• 57:42Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 57:43Billy Corgan?

  Can you talk a little bit about, because I saw somewhere where you said, I'm very spiritual, but I never know what that means.

• 57:49Speaker 03

  I am. I am spiritual. I am. I pray. I pray every day. Look, am I perfect? No. You know, do I up? Yeah. You know, but I'm, you know, you gotta believe that you're a good man. I'm a good man. You know, sometimes you do things that are stupid and I've done stupid things in my life, but. I'm a good man. I try to be a good husband. Am I perfect all the time? Absolutely not. But I'm a good father. I care nothing more than my wife and my children are safe and provided for.

• 58:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 58:29Speaker 03

  Beyond, no question, more than me. I'm a very, am I selfish in real life? Absolutely. That's just from being a star all these years. But the reality is, when it gets down to it, nothing's more important than my wife and my children. Nothing.

• 58:46Billy Corgan?

  Amen.

• 58:46Speaker 03

  Nothing.

• 58:48Billy Corgan?

  Last thing, and you take it however you want, because I've seen where you, you've talked about witnessing this murder when you're a child.

• 58:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:00Billy Corgan?

  But it's usually from the perspective of like, it happened, this is what I did. But now that you're older and it's way in the rearview mirror, do you look at that moment differently? Have you evolved on?

• 59:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's almost like a dream now, like it never happened, you know? I talk about it so much that once in a while, I'll think about it. The thing that I think about the most,

• 59:30Speaker 03

  the most out of all the things, and nobody ever asked me that question, is when I was sitting on a stoop. It used to be when I was sitting, when I was young and I would put my hands like this, I would think about it. For some reason, when I put my hands like that.

• 59:45Billy Corgan?

  Maybe that's the way you were sitting when it happened.

• 59:46Speaker 03

  That's the way I was sitting. And when, when the person got shot and he fell, he fell on his left side, so he was looking right at me. And I remember just

• 1:00:02Speaker 03

  looking at him. I looked at Sonny.

• 1:00:08Speaker 03

  And Sonny looked at me, but then kinda Sonny just turned away and I remember just then looking at him. And he was, I could swear he was looking at me. He might have been dead, but his eyes were on me. Maybe it's my imagination. But I remember that, his look at me. And I, I, I think that's the one thing that I think about whenever I go back to that moment. And then my father got me by the arm and dragged me up the steps. You gotta come and see the one person show.

• 1:00:36Billy Corgan?

  I want.

• 1:00:37Speaker 03

  I hope one day you can.

• 1:00:38Billy Corgan?

  I'm, I'm sad I just missed it when I was in Chicago.

• 1:00:41Speaker 03

  We'll, we'll, we'll stay in touch.

• 1:00:42Billy Corgan?

  I would love that, yeah. Because it strikes me that, um, it's such a,

• 1:00:50Billy Corgan?

  strange isn't the right word. It's such a horrible, dramatic, crazy thing, set within the context of the neighborhood.

• 1:00:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:00Billy Corgan?

  And like I said before, before you even could even imagine what you'd sort of found yourself in the middle of. You know, the loss of a life, this guy who on some level, I don't idolizes isn't the right word, but he was the neighborhood guy, right?

• 1:01:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:16Billy Corgan?

  You literally saw him take a person's life.

• 1:01:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:19Billy Corgan?

  And now you're in the middle of this thing and we're, here we are talking about how many years later.

• 1:01:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:24Billy Corgan?

  But what strikes me is that, you know, when we're put in a circumstance where the code of this, of our, of our surroundings determines the way we have to process what happens.

• 1:01:36Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:01:36Billy Corgan?

  We don't get a say. You know what I'm saying? Cause the natural reaction would be you would get up and run away because you were scared.

• 1:01:44Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:01:45Billy Corgan?

  Which is what a normal nine or 10 year old boy should do.

• 1:01:48Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:01:49Billy Corgan?

  When my son sometimes has a fear reaction as a nine or 10 year old boy, sometimes that old programming kicks in. I think, ah, you know, he shouldn't be such a baby about it.

• 1:02:00Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:02:01Billy Corgan?

  And, and I find myself sitting him down and telling him, no, it's, it's good that you cried. It's good that you were scared. The lessons, the lessons we were taught weren't necessarily the best lessons.

• 1:02:11Speaker 03

  Right. I agree with that, but I do, and you might disagree with me on this one because my wife was a little nervous in the beginning. I, my father, my grandfather, my father and his grandfather, we told, we, we came from a family of boxers, you know, so I, I knew how to box really well and I taught my son as a

• 1:02:31Billy Corgan?

  Who was your boxing, who, who did you look up to as a boxer?

• 1:02:34Speaker 03

  Oh, Sugar Ray Robinson.

• 1:02:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, to me, he was like the most, my father loved him and I thought he was the most perfect fighter and, and I boxed and I taught my son when he was three, four years old, I used to go jab, jab, right here. And now my son is, he says, I'm not that good. My son is really good with his hands. And then he be, he still boxes, we still train together. And then he became jujitsu and he does that. So I believe a young boy should learn how to fight.

• 1:03:03Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:03:04Speaker 03

  I really do. I believe any father, and this is only my opinion, should teach a young boy how to fight, not to get in fights.

• 1:03:11Billy Corgan?

  To stay out of fights.

• 1:03:11Speaker 03

  To stay out of fights.

• 1:03:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:13Speaker 03

  I think that's important because it gives them confidence and they're going to be bullied. They're just going to be bullied. That's just the way it is. They're going to be bullied. So whether it's karate, judo, boxing, something, they should learn how to fight.

• 1:03:26Billy Corgan?

  It's, it's funny you bring up boxing because for whatever reason, I've gone down the boxing rabbit hole recently on YouTube and I'm watching these old fights.

• 1:03:33Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:03:34Billy Corgan?

  And I wandered into what I guess was towards the end of Sugar Ray's boxing career.

• 1:03:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:41Billy Corgan?

  Where he retires.

• 1:03:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:43Billy Corgan?

  And then he comes back for one fight, but then he finds out he owes the government like $500,000. So he ends up fighting Rocky Marciano.

• 1:03:50Speaker 03

  But yeah, be, before Sugar Ray Robinson, uh, came back to fight, he was 128 and one. It was a joke.

• 1:04:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:01Speaker 03

  He was the greatest, he could have been, no, he still is the greatest fighter, you know, but.

• 1:04:05Billy Corgan?

  Can you tell me, because, because I'm interested in this, what, what do you, why to you is he the greatest fighter?

• 1:04:10Speaker 03

  Because he was the, he, he, he could do everything. He could, he had great combinations. He was fast. He had an incredible chin. He just, he had everything. He could box, he could punch.

• 1:04:24Billy Corgan?

  Oh, you know what I'm confusing with Joe Louis? That's my mistake.

• 1:04:27Speaker 03

  No, Joe Louis was a great fighter. Joe Louis fought Marciano.

• 1:04:31Billy Corgan?

  That's my mistake.

• 1:04:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, and Joe Louis was another great fighter.

• 1:04:34Billy Corgan?

  Yes, I haven't gone down the Sugar Ray.

• 1:04:35Speaker 03

  But to me, if you look at old Sugar Ray Robinson.

• 1:04:38Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I'm gonna take you up on that.

• 1:04:39Speaker 03

  You will, you will.

• 1:04:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I got confused in the names, but the tragedy with that was he, Joe Louis ended up owing all this money to the government.

• 1:04:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:48Billy Corgan?

  So he ended up fighting Marciano. Marciano, before the fight, said he didn't want to fight him.

• 1:04:51Speaker 03

  Marciano felt terrible. Felt terrible that he knocked him out.

• 1:04:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:56Speaker 03

  It felt terrible. And it's a shame too, because the government, he, all he did was he was in the army, he did war bonds, he raised a hu- millions of dollars for the government. Then they, you know, do that to him. It was not nice. I don't think that was.

• 1:05:08Billy Corgan?

  And I'm gonna take you up on Sugar Ray Robinson. You need to go down that.

• 1:05:11Speaker 03

  Greatest fighter that ever lived, no question. Check him out.

• 1:05:14Billy Corgan?

  All right.

• 1:05:15Speaker 03

  Still.

• 1:05:16Billy Corgan?

  God bless. Thank you.

• 1:05:17Speaker 03

  God bless, man. Thank you.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

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• 1:05:34Speaker 02

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