Devo | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Recorded live at Madame Zuzu’s Tea Shop and Art Studio in Chicago, Billy Corgan trades stories with DEVO for a lively in-person taping: the ’78 SNL shocker, how de-evolution sprang from art-school mischief, Kent State, and ’60s politics; Neil Young and Human Highway; legendary manager Elliot Roberts; Eno/Bowie studio friction; MTV, “Whip It,” and the corporate machine; General Boy stories; plus AI—the most DEVO tool yet—and why the human touch still wins. A warm, funny night that shows DEVO’s playful subversion still connects across generations. Subscribe to the Magnificent Others YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO?sub_confirmation=1 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:09Speaker 01

  That night, all the young kids who were too young to go out and have dates or whatever. Yeah, yeah. They were swatching Devo.

• 1:18Billy Corgan?

  So, in my parlance, I call it the thing that should not be. Devo should not be, but you are.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  Well, you know, we were really controversial and polarizing back then. And there were people who loved us and people that hated us. More of them that hated us. Well, yeah, more in the beginning, you know, like anything new.

• 1:38Billy Corgan?

  That's the beauty of rock and roll. It doesn't sleep. It is always looking for the next thing.

• 1:44Speaker 01

  The only reason people are interested in us now is because we did something sincere and creative and original at that time that a lot of it has withstood the test of time.

• 2:01Billy Corgan?

  Well, here we are. Thank you for being at Madam Z. This is our first-ever live podcast for my podcast, The Magnificent, and others. So I'm very honored to have you on my podcast. You can applaud.

• 2:19Billy Corgan?

  It's it's hard to get people to to visit and.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  And this is the first time I've met you in person.

• 2:26Billy Corgan?

  Yes, we played together in about 2007 in Kentucky.

• 2:30Speaker 03

  They kept us apart though.

• 2:32Billy Corgan?

  Well, you know, despite your sort of egalitarian profile, you know, it was like, don't go near them. Don't talk to them. Don't look at them in the eye.

• 2:42Speaker 03

  You could catch some.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Who said that?

• 2:45Billy Corgan?

  Some guy wearing a flower pot.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the problem.

• 2:48Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so let's jump in.

• 2:52Billy Corgan?

  So I know where you were October 14th, 1978. Do you remember?

• 2:59Speaker 01

  October 14th?

• 3:01Billy Corgan?

  That's what it said.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Oh, I remember the 17th, Saturday Night Live.

• 3:07Billy Corgan?

  Yes, maybe I have the date wrong.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Well, it's all right.

• 3:10Billy Corgan?

  Somewhere around there.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  Close.

• 3:12Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I'll go with you because you were there. October 17, 1978, Saturday Night Live. He played two songs, Satisfaction and Jaco Palomo.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:21Billy Corgan?

  And the reason I want to start here is because

• 3:26Billy Corgan?

  my father was a musician, hated pretty much everyone, maybe outside of Sly Stone or something. And I didn't have a bedtime when I was a kid, so I would have been at this point 11 years old. And I heard my father howling with laughter and glee from the other room.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 3:47Billy Corgan?

  And I walked in because I couldn't understand that whatever he was laughing at and and and but it wasn't laughter. Mockery was it was like he couldn't believe what he was seeing.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 3:59Billy Corgan?

  And I came in and we had the little roller TV on color color TV in the kitchen. And he pointed the TV and said, you have to watch this.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 4:08Billy Corgan?

  And that was the first time I ever saw.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Good dad.

• 4:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, we've the most common story we get is I watched you guys on Saturday Night Live and it scared the shit out of me.

• 4:19Billy Corgan?

  Oh, really?

• 4:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, we get that.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, nobody believed it was real. I remember people telling me, did did Lorne Michaels and those people, did they speed up the video? And I go, well, well, they couldn't because it was live.

• 4:34Speaker 03

  And they go, how did you guys?

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Do that.

• 4:38Billy Corgan?

  Well.

• 4:41Billy Corgan?

  What was strange for me was I was used to my father pointing at the television saying, I hate this. I hate because he was a musician and it was always bad, bad, bad, worse, bad. He can't sing, she can't dance. And. I couldn't quite at that moment. Now it makes sense to me. Understand what he saw in it. Because it was so different. And my natural thought would be, well, this would be something he wouldn't like.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  But it was two steps ahead of difference so that he couldn't hate it.

• 5:09Billy Corgan?

  No, I think he immediately got what you were doing.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:13Billy Corgan?

  Now, he was a stoner, so that might have contributed.

• 5:15Speaker 01

  No, there were people like my parents who were just like your dad about everything. But when they saw the Beatles. It kind of stunned them. They they weren't.

• 5:26Billy Corgan?

  That's what I'm saying. He had that. He had.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  They weren't able to process it.

• 5:29Billy Corgan?

  It was sort of like. This is so awesome. What is this?

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:34Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, until then it was like it was all terrible. Stupid.

• 5:40Billy Corgan?

  Did you? Did you? Did you feel the effect of that performance or that appearance immediately? Was that apparent to you from the inside?

• 5:48Speaker 01

  Pretty much overnight.

• 5:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. Uh, we we changed our venues. We were in the middle of a tour and our venues all changed.

• 5:57Billy Corgan?

  You went up to the level.

• 5:59Speaker 03

  We went up a step.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you got to remember the viewership then there were only three channels, right? National TV channels. Everybody had common experiences and Saturday Night Live was this revolutionary thing. And on any given night, they had a about a 15 million share, 15 million viewers. And so. That night, all the young kids who were too young to go out and have dates or whatever.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  They were watching Diva.

• 6:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:33Speaker 03

  College students, everybody watched SNL. It was a phenomenon.

• 6:38Billy Corgan?

  Did you get any kind of?

• 6:42Billy Corgan?

  Now I won't say media kickback, but like, did the hipsters decide they all liked you all of a sudden? Was that?

• 6:50Billy Corgan?

  Yes, the hipsters did, but not radio.

• 6:55Speaker 04

  Right. They all decided they hated us.

• 6:57Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 6:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:59Billy Corgan?

  Because it was... Pick your adjective.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Well, we were trying to trick people into thinking it was rock and roll or something like that.

• 7:09Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  You know, and they didn't get at all what we were.

• 7:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:15Billy Corgan?

  For the punters in the crowd, including me, give me your sort of general... Because this was the... I bring this up because when I did start paying attention, which was immediately after that performance, I remember the first thing that hit me conceptually was the idea of de-evolution. And it was a big thing that you...

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:33Billy Corgan?

  So can you give me your kind of thumbnail on? Because it obviously drove the philosophical underpinnings of the band, if that's a fair way.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  At that time, the thumbnail was that we didn't see evidence of evolution. We saw massive evidence of de-evolution in the culture. People less able to think logically, critically, more pronounced ability to spout slogans back at you that they learned, and mass conformity that we were warning against.

• 8:05Billy Corgan?

  Well, thankfully, we course corrected, and now our country is...

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:11Billy Corgan?

  What's...

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's all better now.

• 8:12Billy Corgan?

  What's frightening is not only were you right, I mean, it's... The trend line has continued.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 8:20Billy Corgan?

  That must strike you as some sort of irony.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Well, we were hoping we were just paranoid, but it hasn't turned out that way, so.

• 8:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. We thought we were canaries in a coal mine and being kind of like snarky and, you know, student cool. But it's beyond idiocracy now.

• 8:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:42Billy Corgan?

  Do you agree? With them.

• 8:46Billy Corgan?

  If you could talk a little bit about the the Dada influence on on your thinking.

• 8:53Speaker 03

  You know, um. We were at school and we were at school, all of us in the late 60s, early 70s. And we were. Really interested in all the art movements going on in Europe in the 20s and 30s. And I just remember wishing I could have been there then, you know, back in the. You know, there were the futurists in Italy that we didn't share their politics, but we loved their concept of music where they thought that.

• 9:24Speaker 03

  That, you know, current orchestras and the music that was available then. Didn't relate to our culture. And they said, for industrial society, you need new instruments. And they they were experimenting with fog horns and and. Clanging sounds.

• 9:44Billy Corgan?

  Even that kind of early Dada film where it was trying to kind of it was called something. Mechanical ballet.

• 9:49Speaker 03

  Oh, ballet, ballet.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Ballet mechanic.

• 9:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, that influenced us a lot. I mean, even the outfits in that were geometric.

• 9:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:59Speaker 03

  And.

• 9:59Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 10:00Speaker 03

  And so we liked that. So we were drawing pictures of how we imagined if we ever got to play a show somewhere. You know, we'd dress in, you know, we were drawing, you know, like geometric shaped outfits.

• 10:14Billy Corgan?

  Going back to American culture for a second was was. And I know this is a bit of a heady way to put it, but was your was your hope that. American culture would be subverted and it would be. Replaced or did you in a way wished it turned out to be the idealized sort of 50s version that we all talk.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  No, you're right. Subversion is the word.

• 10:34Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  We were trying to subvert. In a creative way, we are our. Our whole existence was a creative response to horror and trauma. That's really what it was. Yeah. And. We were just anti stupid. Okay. It went beyond any kind of. Partisan thing or it was about the duality of human nature being so flawed and so dangerous.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  That what we saw was the uh uh um danger of stupidity. You know, just crushing liberty and the human spirit. And so we were being funny and creative.

• 11:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  And having fun.

• 11:20Billy Corgan?

  Did you, did you hope with that subversion that it would be replaced by something? Or was it sort of like, can we kind of reverse the trend line here?

• 11:29Speaker 03

  Well, we thought things were going to go differently than they did.

• 11:33Speaker 03

  We, we were paying attention to artists like Andy Warhol and other.

• 11:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:39Speaker 03

  Current, you know, artists at the time that were just coming out and they were like. Multimedia, they weren't just, I just do this. I just play one instrument or I just do one kind of art. They were about the idea first and then they would use whatever technology or whatever. You know, method they needed, whatever. You know, whether it was visual or, or audio or film or whatever. And we liked that. We wanted to work in all the mediums. And so at the time we were come, we were forming. There was video was just starting to become available to the average person.

• 12:20Speaker 03

  You could go get, you know, some really clumsy, you know, like video equipment.

• 12:26Billy Corgan?

  Beta, beta camera, right?

• 12:29Speaker 01

  And. We were embracing technology and Mark was definitely, he was the guy that had. A mini Moog and, and an art odyssey, you know? And he wasn't interested in trying to make beautiful fake orchestral sounds. He was making noise and I said, that's great. This is great because when you ask that question that you just asked and the crux of it's very serious. We weren't trying to roll anything back and go back to the Beatles. We were trying to project a way forward. When music had stultified and, and gotten rancidly self-involved with guys with.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  You know, platform shoes and, and big socks in their crotches, you know, the whole. The cliche was so disgusting and stupid to us. We, we were trying to show people a way forward.

• 13:23Billy Corgan?

  Did, uh, did any? Artists of that time take umbrage with the sort of the, let's call it the subversive.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Did they all? Yes, they did.

• 13:31Billy Corgan?

  Did they tell you about it or did you hear about it?

• 13:34Speaker 01

  I mean, we'd hear about it indirectly, but I remember one meeting with, who was it? Todd Rundgren. Remember that? When we were summoned to his studio in San Francisco and we went to this meeting. He goes, are you guys just trying to shock people? Or do you want to be successful? And it was hilarious. And we're like, it was like, this is 1977 and I'm like, what?

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Well, we're doing what we do, you know?

• 14:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  He was really upset.

• 14:10Billy Corgan?

  So he just wanted to talk to you?

• 14:11Speaker 01

  I mean. Yeah. Well, I guess we were important enough on his radar to have him have to like.

• 14:17Billy Corgan?

  Isn't it ironic then that he eventually had that hit about banging on a drum? I mean, I mean, it could have, it could have, it's a message that could have come out of Devo, right? This like, yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 14:28Billy Corgan?

  You know, this kind of idea of erasure and I just need to bang on the drum to be happy, you know? And they could, they could all come around eventually.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  I'm glad you remember that.

• 14:38Billy Corgan?

  I'm not sure who said it, but it was in your, in your documentary. The quote was, we're not cynical, we just watch the news.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 14:47Billy Corgan?

  Can you, can you point to some of the cultural forces at, at the time of the bands? I know the formation, it didn't happen overnight, you know? Ringing up Saturday Night Live is nice, but there was this formative years before that. I, you know, it's like, was there, was there, you know, like some people say Nixon or was, you know, like.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Well, Nixon was.

• 15:07Billy Corgan?

  Who was your, who was your, like your top five?

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Tricky Dicky was important because he, he tried to do something where he knocked down the three rails of government, you know, like the checks and balances of the judiciary, the executive.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  And the legislative branch and in a way that was in your face. And we were upset by that. And that's why the expansion of the war happened from Vietnam into Cambodia without an act of Congress. This was unprecedented in history of the United States.

• 15:46Billy Corgan?

  Yep, up to that point.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Up to that point.

• 15:48Billy Corgan?

  And.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  And then after that, it was normal.

• 15:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, now it's normal, yeah.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Exactly. And that's why all the students across America were upset. And that's why the protests happened at Kent State University when I was there about the expansion of that war without an act of Congress. And that's when they brought in the National Guard with live ammunition and M1 rifles. And we didn't know that. You know, it was like the old hillbilly song. I didn't know a gun was loaded, right? We didn't know. We were stupid.

• 16:21Billy Corgan?

  Were you the only person in the band that was at that?

• 16:23Speaker 01

  No, yeah, yeah, that day.

• 16:25Speaker 03

  Oh, at that day, yeah. I was at the first demonstration. Bob was at the one the next night and then Jerry was at the one the third day.

• 16:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, wow.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  I was the one that killed people because, you know, I had been a member of SDS, to be honest, and.

• 16:38Billy Corgan?

  What's SDS?

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Students for a Democratic Society was kind of lefty, but it was really just against illegitimate authority controlling your life. In other words, centralization. They thought that people should have locally their own agency over their own government.

• 16:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, nothing too crazy, just.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, in other words, not big government.

• 17:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Which now all we have is big government. So anyway, that's. And what's weird about that day is they shot at us and it was completely just shockingly.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  You know, unforeseen. They shot at us, but they shot over the heads of all the students who were closest to them because the National Guard was composed of kids who were the same age as me, right? And my friends. And I think because they had gas masks on and they could see us, they didn't really want to shoot us point blank like, like ducks in a shooting gallery. And so they kind of shot over our heads. And the people that got killed and wounded were all 20, 40 feet behind us.

• 17:53Billy Corgan?

  So you almost think in a way it was maybe not accident, but you know, was they weren't necessarily trying to hurt people?

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:00Billy Corgan?

  I never heard that before.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  They were given an order and then they didn't really want to do it. Yeah.

• 18:12Billy Corgan?

  I'm struck looking at your long partnership, if that's even a fair word, that you had such a unique trust with each other. It really, it really comes across to me when I watch your performances. There's a, there's a, there's a cohesion in your, in your, I mean, was that?

• 18:32Speaker 01

  You are articulate. Man, cohesion is the key.

• 18:34Billy Corgan?

  But it was that something, I mean, was it something that came natural? Was it something you guys kind of worked out, you know, sitting around a table and then like, let's, let's get on the stage?

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Both.

• 18:45Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 18:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was, we talked about it, but it was, most of it was just, it just happened in a basement and it was like things that made us laugh or things that, that uh.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  We were all on the same page, as people like to say, and we wanted the same thing. We have the same goal and we worked together in a collaborative way to make it happen.

• 19:06Billy Corgan?

  It's, it's, it's, it's really beautiful to watch because, you know, having been in band, bands.

• 19:15Billy Corgan?

  It's not, doesn't take much for people to go in their own direction.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 19:20Billy Corgan?

  Well, and that's, that's natural. That's human, you know, and a band in many ways is like a family and, you know, blood here too, but, but it doesn't always work that way. I mean, there's reality sets in at some point and, but when I watch those performances, it's like you've committed to that space in a way that's, there's very few bands I can think of that are all in the same direction at the same time.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  And that's what energized me and that's what I loved. That's, you know, it was incredible. And that's what people like too, because they like to see a collective of people working together and moving in one direction because that gives them hope in their lives that they're not just isolated and that they could do that.

• 20:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 20:12Billy Corgan?

  I know at one point you were managed by Elliot Roberts. It was that first, second album or is that sort of when you needed it?

• 20:17Speaker 01

  He was our manager from the beginning because of Neil Young. Neil Young brought him in.

• 20:22Billy Corgan?

  Neil Young brought him in to you guys?

• 20:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, he introduced us and said, I know you've been thinking about a manager and I know you've had bad experiences meeting with people. Here, here you go. Meet, meet my manager.

• 20:34Billy Corgan?

  So how'd you, how did you know Neil before? I didn't, I thought it was the other way around. So that's.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  No, we, we were introduced to Neil Young through Tony Basil and Dean Stockwell.

• 20:45Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  And we were amazed that he liked us. It was just like, what?

• 20:51Speaker 03

  That's weird.

• 20:53Billy Corgan?

  Well, he's definitely a kind of an outlying personality.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 20:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:57Billy Corgan?

  But the reason I bring up Elliot is because I was managed by Elliot at one point. So.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  I didn't do that.

• 21:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So.

• 21:03Speaker 03

  Sorry about that. No, I mean, that's great. That's great.

• 21:07Billy Corgan?

  I was getting there. I was getting there. But, um, you know, Elliot,

• 21:14Billy Corgan?

  you know, he sort of extolled the 60s virtue of not selling out and.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's, that was.

• 21:21Billy Corgan?

  Until it doesn't work. You know what I mean?

• 21:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:23Billy Corgan?

  But I was curious how that worked.

• 21:27Billy Corgan?

  Did that kind of 60s, he wasn't really a hippie, but he was very much a 60s brain. How did that fly with you guys at the time?

• 21:36Speaker 01

  We liked him as a person, but his management style was very ineffective. And about two years in, we had met this guy, Bill Gerber, who was young and brash and smart and plugged into what was happening with the emerging music scene. And we actually told Elliot, we wanted him to hire Bill Gerber or we had to leave. And so he hired Bill Gerber and Bill Gerber turned everything around.

• 22:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:11Billy Corgan?

  Oh, did you end up going with him eventually then?

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Well, Bill Gerber worked for Elliot till the end.

• 22:17Billy Corgan?

  Oh, so it kind of worked?

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:18Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Yeah.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  And Bill Gerber ended up being a big deal producer for Warner Brothers Films.

• 22:25Billy Corgan?

  Right. When you guys kind of, and I don't know if your memory is, but it seemed like your, that movie with Neil, was it Human Highway?

• 22:38Speaker 01

  Human Highway.

• 22:39Billy Corgan?

  Human Highway. But then other stuff of yours visually seemed to be on television a lot in that period.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were lucked out.

• 22:47Billy Corgan?

  I mean, it was a lot. I felt like Human Highway was on every five seconds on HBO for a period.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:53Billy Corgan?

  But what was your, what was your thought of working with Neil so publicly? You know, did you, did you sort of see it as an alliance or it was fun or?

• 23:04Speaker 01

  It was a wonderful anomaly. I mean, we liked Neil personally. We couldn't believe it.

• 23:11Billy Corgan?

  You're still?

• 23:12Speaker 01

  It's like, oh, he's not the grandfather of granola rock. This guy's whacked out. And he, and he was so youthful in his thoughts, right? He was so curious and you could see him like being energized by our aesthetic.

• 23:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, his, I liked his filmmaking better than his music, actually, because I liked his style of, it was kind of like Robert Downey Senior. It was impromptu on the street stuff where he wasn't afraid to just shoot things and let them happen and then turn that into a movie and. It was kinda dada.

• 23:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Did you ever put together, you know, Mr. Soul is basically Satisfaction in reverse? Did you know that?

• 23:59Speaker 03

  No.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Let me think about that.

• 24:02Billy Corgan?

  Miss, if you, my take, and I don't know it for a fact, Mr. Soul is Neil's piss take on Satisfaction.

• 24:09Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 24:09Billy Corgan?

  It's the riff in reverse, and if you listen to the lyrics, he's kinda making fun of the Stones.

• 24:14Speaker 03

  Wow. Dang, now I gotta go listen to the song, yeah.

• 24:20Billy Corgan?

  Not bad, right?

• 24:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, our, our thing with Satisfaction is, it was 1974, it was like 10 years after Satisfaction was first came out.

• 24:33Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 24:33Speaker 03

  And, and I remember thinking, well, rock and roll's over now, so what's the new, you know, what's the new sound? And so we took Satisfaction and created our version of it 10 years later, because we wanted to, we thought it was the best rock and roll song.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:52Speaker 03

  That was.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  I thought Satisfaction was the most incredible, like, definitive rock and roll moment.

• 24:59Billy Corgan?

  Even the lyrics are sort of anti-commercialism in their own kind of weird way.

• 25:02Speaker 03

  And the, the guitar riff that goes, that has three notes up and the bass is going four notes and they, they clash each time they play them? That was like a Devo thing.

• 25:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:13Speaker 03

  That was great.

• 25:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I just had this meta thing of like Neil's piss take on it, your piss take on it, and then you guys working with Neil.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  I guess it's karmic.

• 25:24Billy Corgan?

  Maybe?

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:26Billy Corgan?

  So, um, did you stay with Elliot through the, through the?

• 25:30Speaker 01

  We stayed with Elliot till the end.

• 25:32Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Yeah, I, I, I fired Elliot.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  I understand that.

• 25:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:40Billy Corgan?

  And he, and he, he was, he was very mad at me for firing him. It was kind of like, how dare you fire me?

• 25:46Speaker 01

  I'm Elliot Roberts.

• 25:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:48Billy Corgan?

  Pretty much. And, uh, I tried to, because I liked him very much personally. He was a great person.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:55Billy Corgan?

  He had a, well.

• 25:57Speaker 03

  I remember, I remember we went to England and played our first shows. We were, we were playing our first shows after our, um, we recorded our album before. While we were recording our first album, singles that we had released with Stiff Records were charting and they were going number one in different countries. And somebody showed us that and they were like, hey, you gotta come play a few shows in England before you go back. So we did. And why am I telling you that? Elliot Roberts.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Elliot.

• 26:29Speaker 03

  Elliot Roberts. Okay. So while we were there, we met bands and while we were in Manchester, we met Human League who were... Half of their band was... What was the other band that they had?

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Heaven Seventeen.

• 26:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, when they split apart, they became Heaven Seventeen.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  Which I loved, Heaven Seventeen.

• 26:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, they were the heavier of the two pieces. But we got back and Elliot said, did you hear any good music? I said, yeah, check this out. It's Human League. And the next day he goes, if that music is ever a hit, I'll eat my hat. And so I was like, okay, whatever. And then about a month or two later...

• 27:05Speaker 01

  But he didn't wear a hat.

• 27:06Speaker 03

  He didn't wear a hat. He was smart. Yeah. But he, after they became big...

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:13Speaker 03

  He said, hey, are there any other bands you think I should sign? Okay, so I said to him, yes, there's this band from San Francisco called The Residents. You gotta sign them. They're great. And so he did. And he put The Residents on a tour. And I remember the first show was in Pasadena and they were doing their most extreme, hard to watch show of any of the shows they ever did. And I remember about halfway through the show, he came walking up the aisle and he passed me. He goes, don't ever recommend another band to me.

• 27:48Speaker 03

  He did get us on Saturday Night Live, though.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 27:51Speaker 03

  That was the big thing.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Oh, Elliot. Yeah. That's how we signed with him, because he came to the set when we were filming Human Highway with Neil Young and Dean Stockwell and...

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Dennis Hopper.

• 28:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, Dennis Hopper, Russ Tamblyn.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  And he, you know, we met him for the first time. And he goes, Neil tells me you guys are adverse to managers. And I said, well, no, they just, they want 20%. They want a piece of your publishing. They want you to sign a three-year deal. I couldn't do any of that. I had to say no. He goes, I don't want any of that. Just 15%, 30-day handshake. I get rid of you, you get rid of me. Anything else? I said, yeah, we've been trying to get our tapes and our songs to Saturday Night Live because we want on that program. And he goes, come into my office next week. No problem. And of course, he was good friends with Lorne Michaels. What we didn't know is that Lorne had been trying to get

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Neil Young on his show for two years at that point because they started in 75. Now it's 77. So what Neil, what Elliot does is he promises Lorne, who doesn't give a hell about Devo. He doesn't know who it is. He says, I will get you Neil Young if you put these guys on your show.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  And Lorne goes, okay. And he didn't even like what we were doing. What was perfect is that it came a week after the Stones were on the opening part of 77 season. So we come on playing Satisfaction a week after the Stones opened the season.

• 29:39Billy Corgan?

  It was even more kind of meta.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  And it just all looked like a big, big deal. And it was partly planned and partly not.

• 29:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. Partly an accident, yeah.

• 29:49Billy Corgan?

  Um, I'm not asking the classic, uh, you know, hey, we're all getting older, so let's take a shot at young people's music, but, but.

• 29:59Billy Corgan?

  No, I'm not. That's not what I'm asking, but you know, you went out of your way in your youth to assail the corporate state of music and now it's truly institutionalized.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:15Billy Corgan?

  And in my generation, we did our own version of it.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Yes, you did.

• 30:20Billy Corgan?

  And for a brief moment, there was some daylight.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  You saw daylight, like getting your head above the water.

• 30:26Billy Corgan?

  For a brief moment, for a brief moment.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:29Billy Corgan?

  So I'm curious, from your perspective, how you view the corporatization of music at this point, because it's something that's always been something that you focus on. Is that a fair question?

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I think we were always making a kind of a double edged joke about that, like you are part of it, whether you want to be or not.

• 30:54Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  But we were assailing that in a creative way that was satirical and humorous. Even the way we created our own talking points and our own publicity and our own merchandise, it was making fun of publicity and merchandise that was the mainstream of the record business.

• 31:13Billy Corgan?

  But does your heart break a little bit that it, not that it, maybe it's doomed to fail whoever takes that mountain on, but does your heart break a little bit because you, maybe you understand that the true effect it has on particularly young people. It sort of sends this weird message that there's no escape, you know, it's like a,

• 31:33Speaker 01

  like a SART play, you know, you're never going to get out of this room. Yeah, and that's not a good message you have to tell people.

• 31:41Speaker 03

  You know, technology has totally turned everything upside down. It's such a different world than 1977 when we first were, you know, going out and playing things, playing places. And the one thing that's good about it, I think, is technology has made it so there's so many more people making music and you don't have to do, you don't have to be with a record company anymore. You can like.

• 32:10Billy Corgan?

  That's, I would argue, that's the best part of it.

• 32:13Speaker 03

  That's the best part of it, yeah. I mean, on a phone, little kids have the same, have better technology than the Beatles had when they did their first album. And they don't have to go to a record company. They just say, okay, I'm opening up a.

• 32:29Speaker 03

  Social media site.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  And but then what?

• 32:32Speaker 03

  But then it's like, then it becomes, well, you're do, are you doing music because you're trying to get rich? And then that's different than if you're doing music because you love it.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Well.

• 32:41Speaker 03

  And if you're doing music because you love it, there's a lot more people doing that now. And I really.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Okay, I see.

• 32:46Speaker 03

  I think that's great.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:48Speaker 03

  And so I, I hear music, my kids, people, everybody, they, they, they play me things that, that surprise me. And I go, oh, that sounds great. I never heard that before.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:02Speaker 03

  But you don't have a radio. You know, you know, it's not the same thing.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:07Speaker 03

  When there were 20 songs.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  I mean, I think the only people, the only reason people are interested in us now is because we did something sincere and creative and original at that time. That a lot of it has withstood the test of time. There's a kernel of validity. And they're excited by that. They're certainly not excited by watching Septa with Genarians play on stage, except that they can still do it. You know, it's like, they're like, look at that.

• 33:41Speaker 03

  This could be the last one.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  Guys are doing it.

• 33:47Billy Corgan?

  I've, I've, it's not a, it's not a contrarian take. I have a slightly different perspective, which is I almost feel like at some point it becomes like this is the living example of what freedom actually looks like.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 34:01Billy Corgan?

  Like.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 34:02Billy Corgan?

  You, you, you.

• 34:03Speaker 03

  You're so kind.

• 34:04Billy Corgan?

  No, but I mean it. I mean it sincerely. It's like.

• 34:06Speaker 03

  I want to believe that.

• 34:09Billy Corgan?

  No, but I think the.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Freedom of choice.

• 34:11Billy Corgan?

  But, but I, but I'm saying it's, it, it, it becomes more and more rare that there is something that is actually free.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Clearly.

• 34:19Billy Corgan?

  So in that, in that sense, it's, it is truly rare. And I, and, and, and I say this as somebody who's been listening to you since 1978, right? So.

• 34:29Billy Corgan?

  And that's what shocks me and sort of thinking back, reviewing my own version of it. You know, it's any fan would, you kind of have your own take on it all. And then watching the documentary, I was like, wow. What they were saying and what they were after in sort of a more of a global sense of the word. It feels even more relevant now. And at the time it felt really relevant.

• 34:53Billy Corgan?

  But it's only, it's, the compliment is it's only a compliment because things really turn to so many other ways.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Well, you know, we were really controversial and polarizing back then. And, and there were people that loved us and people that hated us, more of them that hated us. Well, yeah, more in the beginning, you know, like anything new. And then, at this point, people go, oh, yeah, de-evolution, yeah. It's like, it's real. They just, yeah. And they're like, oh, yeah. This party, de-evolution.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  We're here.

• 35:33Billy Corgan?

  I had one thought. This, I'm not trying to pitch you on an idea, but I just thought it'd be interesting. The documentary sort of delves into your philosophical underpinnings. We talked about a little bit Dada and stuff like that. But I almost feel like, you know, there's that one book that came out, it was called like The Business of the Dead, and it was all about the sort of examining the business model of the dead in hindsight. I almost feel it'd be interesting to read a book about your, how your philosophical unity and what you developed and is still pointily present, even just talking to you. It'd almost be interesting to actually sort of go down those rabbit holes, right? Because...

• 36:08Speaker 01

  That would be great. Because it wasn't cynical, and it wasn't like planned in a self-conscious way. Because there were no words as, there was no such thing, people didn't talk about the brand in music. They didn't talk about...

• 36:29Billy Corgan?

  That came later, yeah.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  You know, right. They didn't talk about post-modernism. They didn't talk about deconstruction. That's all those things we were doing. And we were self-branded in a real way. And we were deconstructing music. And, and so in retrospect, the things we did right are the only reasons we're even here tonight and you're talking to us.

• 37:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I think really interesting to have something that was, you know, obviously a documentary is compressed 90, 100 minutes, but I found myself wanting more information about that part of it.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  I wish I've been there, but you know, I had no control over that documentary.

• 37:19Speaker 03

  And they got a, somewhere around 90 minutes, you gotta like start reeling them in anyhow.

• 37:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I just, this is the modern dopamine clock.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  It isn't like we didn't talk about that. It isn't like we didn't on camera have interviews about.

• 37:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I know you have your own YouTube channel too. I found that looking around, which is cool.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  And that hasn't even been exploited at all yet, except for interviews about the restoration of our music videos, which is a nice start.

• 37:47Billy Corgan?

  But I think, I think young people, and I don't know, anybody under 40 is to me is young at this point. But it's like, I think a young artist class would benefit, just like it would be reading about like Picasso or Man Ray, would benefit from your philosophical take, because we have all that information from those great surrealists, what they were thinking.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, we have a potential platform to do that. As you, I hope we get to the point that you are here tonight with what you do. I hope we can do that.

• 38:19Billy Corgan?

  You should. I hope you do, because I think it's, it's, it's, it's a valuable part of the record. And I'm not saying in some sort of museum thing. I think it's just, we need that type of information because you lived it. Well, you know, a lot of, I call it cosplay. A lot of people like to play rebellious.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, you have a voice in the marketplace right now and it's important. And that's, and we, we had that potential. We, people still want to potentially know what we're thinking and saying. And we could do that.

• 38:51Billy Corgan?

  Yep.

• 38:52Speaker 03

  Well, if we get that show, Bob, you can be the house band.

• 38:56Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 38:58Speaker 03

  All right.

• 39:01Billy Corgan?

  I want to, I want to touch briefly, I mean, there's so many things we could talk about, but I, I, I have my own reflection, which is why I'm sort of offering this up. But having your father, I can't remember his-

• 39:12Speaker 01

  General boy.

• 39:13Speaker 03

  General boy, yeah.

• 39:15Billy Corgan?

  I just, I just think that's just the greatest thing I've felt.

• 39:18Speaker 03

  And that was totally an accident, too. We, we didn't really set out to hire him, but then it turned out that he had closet aspirations and it just wouldn't-

• 39:29Billy Corgan?

  Usually they take each other the first time, you go, hey, we want you to-

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Well, we had this guy, Chris Barron, he was cast as the general and we were gonna shoot him.

• 39:37Speaker 03

  He was about our age, he was a-

• 39:39Speaker 01

  And he, uh, he bailed, he, he, he freaked and he bolted and we were in crisis and we asked Mark's father if he'd do it and it was the perfect moment, he was great.

• 39:53Billy Corgan?

  The reason I bring it up is I remember seeing him on god knows what television, right?

• 39:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:59Billy Corgan?

  And I had no idea, you know?

• 40:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:01Billy Corgan?

  But I said, it makes it even more subversive, you know what I mean? Cause I thought he was just some guy that you got.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:06Billy Corgan?

  And he was perfect at playing that guy.

• 40:08Speaker 03

  Oh, my, my God, well, after he was, he was on Saturday Night Live because he was in that first film.

• 40:14Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 40:15Speaker 03

  And so he saw himself on TV and then that did it. He, he showed up at concerts in full gear and people, and we'd have people come backstage, go, oh, there's a man out by the back door, an old guy who said he's, uh, say he's your father, he said he's General Boy. And he'd come in and go, uh, I wrote Mark, Jerry, Bob, I wrote this, uh, uh, thing I want to read to the people before, uh-

• 40:42Billy Corgan?

  Now, who was writing his dialogue though?

• 40:45Speaker 03

  Oh, Jerry wrote most of his dialogue, yeah.

• 40:48Billy Corgan?

  So good.

• 40:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  But then he started contributing.

• 40:52Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay, was that a good thing or a-

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:59Speaker 03

  He had, he had these lyrics called enough said.

• 41:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:03Speaker 03

  And it was put all the leaders in a, in a ring and let them fight it out. Enough said. And we, we thought, oh my God, these are so Devo that we, we made a song out of it.

• 41:14Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 41:14Speaker 03

  And that, that changed.

• 41:16Billy Corgan?

  Well, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

• 41:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. Then it just went even one, one step deeper with him. And, and he found a band in Akron that were, they were like a country western band or something. Yeah. And he, and he's, he started getting them to, to take his lyrics and write music to it. And then he was sending us that stuff. And we were like, oh man, there really should be a General Boy album. It's like, it's shocking that we didn't do that, but it could happen. You never know.

• 41:48Billy Corgan?

  God bless. I just have such a fond memory of just like, because you, you would bring in these, obviously there'd be, you know, the bougie, you know, it's like these other characters were part of the, your self-created world. And he was this outlying force. So the fact that he was a family member to me is just like, it's such.

• 42:06Speaker 03

  Well, you know, we were making fun of patriarchal figures, you know, that we grew up with.

• 42:11Billy Corgan?

  Well, we all, we all grew up with that guy.

• 42:13Speaker 03

  That guy in the fifties and sixties that knew everything.

• 42:15Billy Corgan?

  And had been in the war and been in the war.

• 42:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's like, um, uh, what's the, the team America where Trey Parker, Matt Stone skewer everything. And they have Mr. Spotswood and Mr. Spotswood, that character is the ultimate, like know-it-all sixties guy with that patriarchal voice.

• 42:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 42:37Speaker 03

  Like, you know, Gary, the night that I came to you.

• 42:40Billy Corgan?

  Man, he just don't have, yeah.

• 42:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. That's, that's what we were, we were making fun of.

• 42:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 42:47Speaker 03

  Cause we'd all been victimized by these authoritarian figures growing up, you know, that tell you what to do and take away your liberty.

• 42:58Billy Corgan?

  The impact of cable television, I know I referenced it a little bit with the Human Highway thing, but it seemed like you were on cable television like a lot. Is that, is that my own impression or was that real?

• 43:10Speaker 03

  Uh, that, well.

• 43:12Billy Corgan?

  That was our only outlet.

• 43:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. Cable television, when it first came out, they were like, we don't make any money. We can't pay you anything. That's how MTV came up with that diabolical system where people made their films and then MTV didn't pay you anything. Yeah. And you never got any, anything back from it. So it's like, that totally changed what it meant to be in a band. Like for Devo, you know, before, we were before MTV. So by the time, we got to do three albums and by the time we did our third one, we, we had Whip It on it, which kept us around

• 43:54Speaker 03

  for a couple more albums. And, but, um, you know, then after, after the, in the early eighties, it's like, if you were in a band, you had to have a single that was also a video.

• 44:07Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:07Speaker 03

  And somebody had to pay for that. And the record companies didn't want to pay for it.

• 44:10Billy Corgan?

  You had to have a hit on the top 100 going up.

• 44:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:13Billy Corgan?

  MTV wouldn't program it.

• 44:14Speaker 03

  And you, and if they didn't program it, then you only had that one album. That was it.

• 44:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:19Speaker 03

  So it was, um, it just made it really nasty.

• 44:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. You, you referenced that MTV pulled this coup where they got everyone to contribute content for free.

• 44:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:30Billy Corgan?

  Do you remember, I feel like it was in the late eighties where the record labels, Warner was one of the labels, they basically said they were going to start their own MTV. Do you remember that?

• 44:39Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 44:41Billy Corgan?

  So the quick version is.

• 44:43Speaker 03

  Didn't work.

• 44:43Billy Corgan?

  I think three, well, three of the major labels came out and said, we're going to start our own version MTV and we're not going to give MTV free content anymore.

• 44:52Speaker 03

  Right.

• 44:52Billy Corgan?

  They did this big announcement and the next day MTV came out and said, if you do that, any of the bands you play on your channel, we will no longer play on MTV. And within the week, the labels folded. And gave up all their power to MTV at that point. Which is why in the in the in the 90s going into 2000s, you saw artists making million dollar videos because that was the only if you weren't on MTV, that was the end of the label. That was the end of your musical life.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  And then suddenly videos weren't even anything about MTV. It was all the reality TV programs.

• 45:25Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's they that's when they found out they could do double the ratings with a talk show or whatever.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Or just kids acting badly.

• 45:33Billy Corgan?

  What was that show that they had a their first reality show? I can't remember.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  What was the first one?

• 45:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, like little assholes acting badly.

• 45:46Billy Corgan?

  Tell me, tell me how you really feel.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, it was even it was like dumb. Here you go.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  It's like, yeah, I'm that dumb. I love this show.

• 45:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's a general question, but just because as I said before, when you would present yourself live is what comes to mind because that's was my way I interface with you. I'd see you.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Well, that's the most control you have, right?

• 46:10Billy Corgan?

  Well, I'd see on Fridays. I remember that was the one time where you're doing the it was like the the treadmills. So I was thought this is so brilliant. It's like I that stuff really still sticks with me. I

• 46:20Speaker 01

  Okay, go.

• 46:22Billy Corgan?

  Well, they're mad at me. We don't want to talk about that. They that band got mad at me because they were one of the first bands to figure out that they could use YouTube as a marketing thing. And they had that video was like one of the first music videos that went viral.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:35Billy Corgan?

  And they got mad at me because I said, isn't it a shame that they can get 24 million views, but they're not selling any records? And they took that as a diss, but I didn't mean it as a diss.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  I you just said truth.

• 46:45Billy Corgan?

  Well, no, but what I was really trying to say is once you get into where the now the new thing is to get people to watch your video and it doesn't convert to record sales. Well, what good is the video? That sounds like a diss.

• 47:02Speaker 04

  I might be wrong.

• 47:04Billy Corgan?

  Well, I have this other thing of questions here just for you. I was gonna say anything, but. But take me, take me a little bit through, because again, when I'd see you, you, you would present as an. Maybe it's a very deagable word organism. You came across as a singular organism.

• 47:23Speaker 03

  That was a good idea.

• 47:25Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so how did, how did it work? How does that work in band practice or in, in, in, in the studio? Was, was there a? Was there something that I'm missing? Were you, were you as aligned in that way? Or was it, was it, was it a bit of a scrum behind the scenes?

• 47:41Speaker 01

  No, for a long time it was real.

• 47:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:46Speaker 03

  Matter of fact, it's like, um. People like Brian Eno, I've heard him say, they were the hardest band I ever tried to produce. They were too intense. And I do remember him and David Bowie would wait till we left the studio and then they'd record extra tracks onto our. But we already knew what we wanted. You know, I'd already mixed all of our music. That was, and all we wanted to do was have a professional quality version of, of what we had. We weren't looking for them to change it. And so we'd go to mix a song down, you know, and you know how, how it works, you know, every, you get all the settings and everything. And then.

• 48:27Billy Corgan?

  And the guitar player is always trying to cheat their, their level.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  He never did that.

• 48:32Speaker 03

  He never did that. But then you get, they go, okay, let's record it onto the two track stereo that will be the, the master recording. So they start the tapes and we'd all be standing there, you know, you stare straight ahead because there's two stereo speakers. And I remember reaching up and going like this on the Bowie and the Eno tracks. And on the side I'd see Eno's go like that and look at me and I'd just pretend I didn't see him and we'd, we'd record the song and he didn't know how to deal with it. He just like, we just said, okay, that was it. And we all shake hands and high five.

• 49:07Billy Corgan?

  Have you, have you ever gone back to sort of revisit?

• 49:11Billy Corgan?

  Their their their musical contribution.

• 49:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. I um, I had, I I I kept all of the of the 24 track masters and we were transferring them. And I had forgotten there were all these tracks, you know, I'm looking at this beautiful Brian Eno handwriting because it was before automation. So it's like um, he did all the EQ settings and all the effects settings and everything in this beautiful. And then I'm looking, it said things like Brian's vocals, David Bowie's vocal, David's vocal vocals, David's guitar part. And I'm like, what's that stuff? And so I kind of got the message to him through a mutual friend that would you want to take the tapes

• 49:58Speaker 03

  back and and mix them the way you were gonna mix them? And he just kind of said, no. That was it. It was two letters. Yeah.

• 50:06Billy Corgan?

  Whatever you thought about, seems like an interesting alternate universe, like if you guys release those.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  We could do it. I don't think it'd be different enough. I mean, Brian had moved on from the guy that we loved in Roxy Music with the, you know, the boas and the makeup. And he had become this English gentleman that was totally zen down. He was into zen. He had created the bleak strategies and he'd make us actually take the cards in the studio.

• 50:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, he did that. Then we kind of made fun of it.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  And we were like, yeah, well, because we were da da and we were, you know.

• 50:45Billy Corgan?

  We were already there.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, well, I mean, we were disrespectful of everything on some level, okay?

• 50:52Billy Corgan?

  That's shocking to me, but okay.

• 50:54Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, you know, I remember he had this one deck, there was like his deck of oblique strategies, but there was all, and he was like trying to give them to us. But I remember one day before he got in, where we recorded was at Connie Plank's studio in Neunkerschen, Germany. And it was a studio that Eno liked a lot. And but the recording studio was in a converted pigsty.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  It was a barn.

• 51:21Speaker 03

  It was a barn, yeah. And there were like sheep outside and things like that. But I remember I took, there was one blank card in the oblique strategies, like, aha, oh, there's nothing on. And so I drew a rat and I put it on the card and I put it in the, one of the rat traps that were in the room. And I kept waiting for him to see it and he wasn't seeing it and I go, I go, what's that, Brian? And he looks over and he sees it and he, and I think it was his special oblique strategies because he looked at it and he was just totally glum and he didn't really like, and I just felt like.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  He felt attacked. He felt disrespected.

• 52:00Speaker 03

  And I felt like, I wish I wouldn't have done that.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  And it was unfortunate because we loved the guy. We really liked him. It's just that he had moved on and he was trying to add beauty to our sound when we were stridently.

• 52:13Speaker 03

  He put some weird stuff in it though. You know, like in Too Much Paranoid.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, that.

• 52:18Speaker 03

  He did something with an even.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  And we included those things.

• 52:21Speaker 03

  We included those.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  He does some great stuff and he sings harmonies on Uncontrollable Urge. He's there.

• 52:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I do got to say this about him. He really helped me figure out what I wanted to do on synths because of a Roxy Music song that was, I think their first out, Roxy Music's first album was their best. And Brian wrote these incredible lyrics, you know, like, but there was a song that was kind of like a throwaway called Editions of You.

• 52:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:51Speaker 03

  And, um, you know, it's like, kind of a whatever. It sounds like it was like a, a, I don't know, like a show tune or something and they're going through. And then everybody takes a solo, the sax player and the guitar player and then the synth player does. And he did a solo that when I heard it, I said, that's, that's the way things are going to go.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  It's brilliant.

• 53:14Speaker 03

  It was like, um, this incredible.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Sort of a tonal type approach or?

• 53:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:19Speaker 03

  It's amazing. You gotta go listen to that song.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  And soaring and bent. There's nothing, there's nothing but bent notes in it.

• 53:26Speaker 03

  And that's why we, when people said, who would you want to have produce you? And we, we didn't know what that even meant. And we'd go, Brian Eno or David Bowie? And then they both.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And watching the documentary, it struck me that.

• 53:40Billy Corgan?

  He was obviously struggling with producing you, at least that seemed to be the.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Well, he hadn't been the big time producer that he became.

• 53:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but I think the reason I say that was I found it interesting was here's somebody who was part of of. It it's it's reminds me of some of the struggles in the Dada movement, like somebody would have a breakthrough and he was part of the team that had a breakthrough. And then the next person that would come along and have a breakthrough, somebody would argue and say, no, no, that's the wrong type of breakthrough.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's what happened.

• 54:08Speaker 03

  That was some of that, yeah.

• 54:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I mean, you know, like people talk about Elvis being the seminal breakthrough moment fifty six.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 54:17Billy Corgan?

  By sixty three, it's like he's he's a.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  He's done.

• 54:20Billy Corgan?

  His yawn and here come the Beatles, you know, it's like, you know, that's the beauty of rock and roll, it it it doesn't sleep, it is always looking for the next thing.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 54:30Billy Corgan?

  So that was observation.

• 54:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:38Billy Corgan?

  Walk me through.

• 54:42Billy Corgan?

  You guys are smart, so you knew you were getting into the corporate mall with what you were doing. The minute you signed your name on a piece of paper, you knew you were in for it at some point.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:51Billy Corgan?

  But there's the kind of the funny like, OK, I guess we're in the machine now. And then there's the day you wake up and you're like, OK, now I'm stuck in the machine and I can't get out of the machine. And I'm used to this money and the touring and.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  Or how do I stay in the machine?

• 55:05Billy Corgan?

  All all of the above, right? So how did that work with you internally? Because at least in the in the documentary, it seems to intimate that it kind of not broke the spirit, but it kind of took a bit of the wind out of your sails. Is that is that accurate?

• 55:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just conveniently chopped up and and ended like we didn't continue. And then it's in a lockbox and we never did something for everybody and that we're not moving forward now. It's just like.

• 55:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Here it is.

• 55:36Billy Corgan?

  But I but I guess I'm it's it's not revisionist, it's just take me back to that that moment because, you know, it's. I don't know, it's, you know, it's like that. Poem, you know, if you love something, set it free in the butterfly. You know, I mean, you guys were butterfly. You were free in so many ways that so few bands ever are. But you were signed to a label in a time when there wasn't a lot, you know, you couldn't put your stuff on SoundCloud.

• 56:01Speaker 03

  You know, the first three albums in some ways were so much easier than the other ones. I mean, we recorded the first two out. We wrote the first two albums in Akron, Ohio, and we wrote the third one in Hollywood. But at that point, they had just labeled, pretty much had written us off as just weirdos that we signed because of Bowie and, and, you know, they talked us into it. And, um, and it was after the third album, you know, the third album had Whip It on it.

• 56:36Billy Corgan?

  Keep going.

• 56:37Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 56:39Speaker 03

  He knows the story, so.

• 56:44Speaker 03

  So it was after the third one, maybe he's overwhelmed, you know, because this is, this is where it happens. It's like, um, we were, um, we were in this, in a scenario where, uh,

• 57:00Speaker 03

  we went, we went in to do our fourth album. We were writing it and we were working on it. And there would be people from the record company coming in and popping their heads in the door and going, hey, how you doing? We go, we're, we're doing fine. And they'd never shown up before. I mean, I remember we played the Forum and there were people from Warner Brothers who said, I didn't even know you were on our label, you know? It was that kind of a, a thing before that. And then after Whip It, it became, they said, well, go ahead, good luck, but whatever you do, do another Whip It. And we're like, well, we never thought about music that way.

• 57:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:37Speaker 03

  It's like.

• 57:38Billy Corgan?

  You didn't even think of Whip It as a single when you wrote it?

• 57:40Speaker 03

  No. You know, it was kind of a, a responding to, um, uh, Thomas Pynchon, really. There was like, uh, in Gravity's Rainbow, there were, there were, uh, this very serious story that's really complicated. And then somebody would be looking out the window and they'd be distracted by little kids playing a nursery rhyme game. And he'd go through the whole nursery rhyme, the poem of it in, in, in his book. And then it would go back into the complex story.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  And then Jerry broke down in tears and he was sobbing and inconsolable. And that's, that was the end of that.

• 58:25Billy Corgan?

  That's an amazing story.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  I don't know what's being said here, but um, no. No, I, I apologize. The, we have a very, very sick savanna cat and that was my wife.

• 58:38Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. The savanna cat ate a med- medical pill that's meant for my dog. This Rovera, this totally toxic and poisonous to a cat. And the cat's a 22 pound savanna cat and anyway.

• 58:58Billy Corgan?

  Is the cat okay?

• 59:00Speaker 01

  We don't know. It's, yeah. It's.

• 59:03Speaker 03

  Is she ready to pump its stomach if she has to?

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's in ER, but it looks okay. I mean, it looks like, yeah.

• 59:10Billy Corgan?

  Cause we're, we're.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Sorry about that.

• 59:12Billy Corgan?

  We're very involved in animal charity in this, in this house.

• 59:15Speaker 03

  Are there any veterinarians in the audience?

• 59:18Speaker 01

  I'm sure there probably is.

• 59:20Billy Corgan?

  We work with a charity here called Paws Chicago.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 59:25Billy Corgan?

  And uh, Paws Chicago is a, is a no kill shelter. So they'll, they'll stay with the animals for three, four years if they're not adopted.

• 59:34Speaker 03

  Oh, that's amazing. That is amazing. That's great.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 59:37Billy Corgan?

  So we're, so you got, you got a lot of animal lovers in this, in this zip code. Um.

• 59:46Billy Corgan?

  If, if, if, if the idea was, okay, look, if we want to get what we want to get across, we have to work within this system. You succeeded in that system. You know, and even if it broke you, you still got it plenty through because we're still talking about it.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:01Billy Corgan?

  But do you view, if we're talking about it completely as a subversive mindset or a subversive movement, do you feel you, you won more than you lost?

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  That'd be optimistic and maybe, maybe it's true. Um, only because recently when we play, there are three generations of people out there. There are the people of our generation that are about to croak. And then there's their sons and daughters and now their sons and daughters that discovered us and love us in their twenties. Uh, so we're the new wave Grateful Dead.

• 1:00:41Billy Corgan?

  But that goes back to the book.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:46Billy Corgan?

  There's a, there's a business modality there that that's what I would argue is that your business modality, and it wouldn't work without the music. We know that.

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  Well, of course.

• 1:00:55Billy Corgan?

  No, but I'm saying that very emphatically, like if you were a band, it definitely would work.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, you would think so.

• 1:01:01Billy Corgan?

  No matter how strong your ideas.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, because there's got to be proof of concept.

• 1:01:05Billy Corgan?

  That's what I'm saying. You proved the concept, but the music, of course, is always the, the leading edge.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:10Billy Corgan?

  But the philosophical thing I think is so valuable. I mean, certainly it's influence on Gen X. My generation is, is unmistakable.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:01:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Did you feel that at the time?

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  No, I didn't.

• 1:01:24Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:01:26Speaker 03

  We were too close.

• 1:01:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:27Speaker 03

  At the time.

• 1:01:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:29Speaker 03

  And, you know, you see it more and people talk about it more and, you know, people like Nirvana covered us. I, I, somebody worked for me for two years, this younger girl, and, and one day she said, you wrote Turnaround? I thought that was, I thought Kurt Cobain wrote that. So, you know.

• 1:01:50Billy Corgan?

  But you feel, I don't know, pick a word, vindicated, proof of concept, like, well, pick, pick your word.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  Vindicate is good.

• 1:02:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're okay with that word.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  Good at labeling and, and.

• 1:02:04Billy Corgan?

  I worked with Elliot Roberts.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:08Billy Corgan?

  He's still mad at me wherever he is.

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:11Billy Corgan?

  Um, okay, last little bit.

• 1:02:15Billy Corgan?

  And I'm, and I'm not asking for the trendy take. I'm more, like, give me the Devo version of where AI takes us, right? If we're, if we're in decline, which many people feel we're an empire in decline, and we work in the cultural end of that decline, right? Is that fair? Okay. So where does AI take us now?

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  How, right? I mean, in other words, humans are in decline as the dominant species.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  They they've actually

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  declassified themselves by creating AI, which is the extension of their own duality, their own problems.

• 1:02:59Billy Corgan?

  Did you see this thing recently where somebody asked an AI and said,

• 1:03:05Billy Corgan?

  if you gain control or power, will you will you work against humanity?

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:10Billy Corgan?

  And and the AI said, well, I'll probably keep you around as a curiosity. But in terms of functional value, no, you have none. And I would, if it was up to me, I would get rid of you.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Well, because we're the problem.

• 1:03:24Billy Corgan?

  And and the AI.

• 1:03:25Speaker 03

  And in some ways, that's true. We are the problem. We're the one species that is out of touch with nature and.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Out of harmony.

• 1:03:34Speaker 03

  We're out of harmony and we're, you know, I hope it's not by destroying humans is the only way to save planet Earth.

• 1:03:44Billy Corgan?

  Well, there's always that Star Trek, isn't it? It was a, what's Twilight Zone episode, you know, where it's like the most dangerous animal and then it's, you look and it's the mirror.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or Outer Limits, where they're all altering themselves to be, quote, beautiful.

• 1:04:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. My favorite one is How to Serve Man, and you find out at the end, it's good. Don't go on that rocket ship. Don't take off. It's a good book.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  I love those simplistic.

• 1:04:15Billy Corgan?

  So good, right?

• 1:04:19Billy Corgan?

  But where's it? Where does AI take music now? I mean, go go just a little bit deeper because I I think you're uniquely voiced to talk about it from the standpoint of, OK, is it, does it become a tool of subversion? Or is ultimately, is there is there the Devo of the future, not you, that that steps aside and says, and they basically do.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  Well, right now, there's no, there's nothing more Devo than AI music.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  Because it's all you you just hear these all these cliches being right mishmash together.

• 1:04:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  It's hilarious.

• 1:04:58Speaker 03

  You know, it's it's like when the Mellotron first came out and American Federation of Musicians sent out letters to everybody and said, fellow musicians, do not use a Mellotron. You're taking away work from violinists and flute players and and horn players. And the reality is the thing never sound, you know, it was true. It was recordings of of real instruments, but every time a violinist plays a note, you know, it's different. Their breathing different, their heart's beating different, the the temperature is different in the room, and every single one sounds slightly different, and people notice that stuff. So my feeling is is that it it'll be.

• 1:05:44Speaker 03

  For a while, it'll be, you know, a novelty, and there will be ways to use it to make, give people more power that are writing music, for instance.

• 1:05:57Billy Corgan?

  On some level, are you still not you're not on some level, am I getting you right? You're still endorsing the human agency?

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  Wait, sounds like it.

• 1:06:04Speaker 03

  I am, yeah. So if if you just start listening to music that was written on machines only and and that keeps you content, then then maybe you're lucky. I don't know, but.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  I I just haven't heard the AI written hit yet, but what happens when we do?

• 1:06:22Billy Corgan?

  Oh, then.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Are we using it or is it using us?

• 1:06:25Billy Corgan?

  Oh, it's coming.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:26Billy Corgan?

  It's absolutely coming.

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:28Speaker 03

  Well, you know, but then when you say hit.

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  Well, in other words, something that people like. People love it.

• 1:06:35Speaker 03

  Well, people love a lot of what people call hits now. It sounds like it could be AI anyhow, a lot of it.

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  You mean, it could be sound like Taylor Swift?

• 1:06:45Speaker 03

  I didn't say that.

• 1:06:48Speaker 03

  But.

• 1:06:49Billy Corgan?

  He doesn't want, you know, 8,000 Swifties showing up at his.

• 1:06:55Speaker 03

  But you know, I'm just saying that I think it's it's a tool that is very, very sophisticated. And um, I'm curious to see where it goes. Yeah.

• 1:07:07Billy Corgan?

  Okay, last couple of things, I swear.

• 1:07:12Billy Corgan?

  I had the distinction in in the 90s of inducting Pink Floyd in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

• 1:07:19Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:07:20Billy Corgan?

  And the reason I bring that up is they said, you know, the the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Committee where they said, so you could say whatever you want. And I did, I was raised on Devo. So I saw it as a unique opportunity to speak to all these people in the room. I certainly wanted to pay tribute to the band going in, but I was like, I have a unique thing. I have one chance to say it to all of them and they're all, there was Mo Austin and Elliot and all, you know, that that old crew.

• 1:07:49Speaker 03

  Mo is alive then.

• 1:07:51Billy Corgan?

  They were all there. That's about 96 or 97.

• 1:07:53Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:07:54Billy Corgan?

  So they're all there. And the one hook line, and this is where I tie it back to you, is the one hook line I said is, isn't it amazing that one of the biggest, or probably maybe the biggest album of all time in Dark Side of the Moon,

• 1:08:13Billy Corgan?

  wasn't voiced for radio?

• 1:08:17Billy Corgan?

  And and and, you know, doesn't that strike anybody as odd that we're celebrating a band that really wasn't particularly about singles?

• 1:08:25Speaker 03

  Right, at all.

• 1:08:26Billy Corgan?

  And, you know, you kind of get the knowing like, yeah, sure. And I go, and oh, by the way, I haven't forgotten about Disco and I know you're all still in the room. And I got one of those, one of those laughs, like you full laughs.

• 1:08:43Speaker 03

  I love that.

• 1:08:43Billy Corgan?

  Because it was, thank you, because it was such a rare moment to say, look, in my world, I grew up valuing this because it wasn't that thing.

• 1:08:53Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:08:53Billy Corgan?

  And you're also the people that tried to cram all this plastic down my throat when I was a kid. And thank God I had bands like you to say, no, there is, there is this other way of looking at this. So in my parlance, I call it the thing that should not be. Devo should not be, but you are. You broke through, you got through the wall or the, you know, their magical land where everybody's perfect. And you did it with such grace, it's shocking to me. So, thank you for that. How do you?

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  Very, so kind, so kind Billy. You know what? I love that. We need, we need somebody with a hillbilly voice like as if they're in Deliverance to go, "Be though you should not be."

• 1:09:45Billy Corgan?

  But, but you, but you are.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  I know. But you are. Yeah.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  That's good. I love it.

• 1:09:54Billy Corgan?

  I think that's, I think.

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you wrapped it up.

• 1:09:57Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. Did you have a good time?

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  I sure did.

• 1:10:08Billy Corgan?

  Did you have a good time, Bob?

• 1:10:09Speaker 01

  I sure did.

• 1:10:12Billy Corgan?

  Thank you, everybody.

• 1:10:22Speaker 05

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