Pod Insights The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan Paul Stanley Pt 2 | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan About this episode In Part 2 of this candid conversation, Paul Stanley reflects on 50 years of KISS. Together they dig into the legacy, the criticism, the creativity, and the brotherhood behind the band. From the idea of a KISS biopic and their unmasked Vegas shows to Paul's Soul Station, songwriting, and his admiration for icons like Robert Plant and Steve Marriott.
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0:30 Billy Corgan? Do you want to see like a Kiss bio book?
0:34 Speaker 02 I'm on the fence about it.
0:38 Speaker 02 I would rather it never happen than happen badly.
0:42 Billy Corgan? I don't want to talk much about your musical partner because he says enough on his own. But when you started getting into other things, you know, like I called it like Gene with the ponytail in the movies.
0:53 Speaker 02 Gene?
0:54 Billy Corgan? How would you feel about that? Did you see him as being like, remember when Keith Richards was very critical of Mick Jagger?
1:01 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:02 Billy Corgan? Like, hey, you're in the Rolling Stones. Like, what the hell are you doing? Did you have a similar kind of reaction?
1:07 Speaker 02 Very much. I felt betrayed.
1:11 Billy Corgan? So let's start here. I love this word kerfuffle. Do you know this word? There's a recent kerfuffle about you guys playing again.
1:18 Speaker 02 Yes.
1:19 Billy Corgan? So I just want you to walk me through that a little bit.
1:23 Billy Corgan? The context being you're going to do a thing in Vegas and you guys are going to play Unmasked, they believe is the word you use.
1:29 Speaker 02 Yes. Every year we did Kiss cruises.
1:33 Billy Corgan? And fans love them. I mean, I know 10 people have been on the Kiss cruises. They love them.
1:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:41 Billy Corgan? Said the most fun.
1:42 Speaker 02 The most fun. And so much fun for me and for us. Honestly, when we first were toying with the idea, I was like, who's going to go on a Kiss cruise?
1:59 Speaker 02 It turned out many and we we did what they wanted. We listened and created something special. That's what we're doing in Vegas. In terms of why, why not? You know?
2:17 Billy Corgan? I don't care about the why. Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude. To me, the why is when people get into that stuff in our business, they're looking at the wrong end of the telescope.
2:27 Speaker 02 Well, also, it's a reflection of a mindset that I'm not a part of. You know, many people live going why instead of why not? That's that's that's the opening of the door. We're celebrating 50 years. There's always a reason to celebrate, but it's 50 years since the Kiss Army and it's also a way to stay connected to our fans. We the people who ask us why we're doing it or the people who wish we wouldn't do it
3:12 Speaker 02 in the same way that there are people who would say, you know, why did you continue on as a band? Well, sure, you know, so it sounds like a great fun time to to keep going and to to continue a tradition. It's basically a Kiss cruise in Vegas in a hotel.
3:40 Billy Corgan? Sure. I'm not a doubting person by nature because I just think cynicism is just it's overplayed in American culture. So the question is not asked without.
3:50 Speaker 02 Cynicism comes from bitterness.
3:54 Billy Corgan? Agreed. So I'm just curious of your mindset.
4:00 Billy Corgan? It was it similar to when you guys continued after the farewell tours? It's just like it's our it's our book to author. And if we want to keep adding chapters, it's all good.
4:08 Speaker 02 Totally.
4:11 Speaker 02 We said
4:14 Speaker 02 that we're we're done touring. We're we're we're done.
4:20 Speaker 02 In those personas.
4:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
4:24 Speaker 02 That we shouldn't pick up instruments together. Says who?
4:28 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
4:29 Speaker 02 We're not we're not. And if we did.
4:35 Speaker 02 We're allowed to, but we're not going against what we said.
4:40 Billy Corgan? Okay.
4:42 Speaker 02 And
4:46 Speaker 02 you know, I'm not. I'm not going to be on stage. I see videos and go from the last tour and go, boy, was that great? But we're not doing that, you know, we're we're we're celebrating where we are today. And our past with the fans who we love and they love us.
5:07 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I mean, in many ways, you're it's it's a blithe way to put it, but your business model is very much its own thing. You guys have always kind of created your own ecosystem.
5:17 Speaker 02 Always.
5:18 Billy Corgan? And and it's worked very well for you. Other people it wouldn't work well for. I don't think it would work well for us. I don't we're just wired differently.
5:27 Speaker 02 Yeah, we've always. We've always done things the way we thought they should be done.
5:33 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
5:34 Speaker 02 Certainly in the beginning, we had less control over making those kinds of decisions. But Bill Arcoin, our first manager, he never managed anybody in his life. But it felt right.
5:47 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
5:48 Speaker 02 And there are other cases of that happening over the years and
5:54 Billy Corgan? This might be an unfair question to ask you because you know, Gene's always sort of. And Gene, when he was here and he sat in that exact same chair, I challenged him and said, you know, in a way, you're always talking about money as kind of a weird cover for how you really feel. I'm not asking you to speak for Gene. But when people have tried to always label Kiss as being about money, I always thought this is sort of missed the point. And I even challenged Gene on that. So what was always your mindset on that?
6:24 Speaker 02 It's never been about the money. However, if there is money to be made, it should go to us. But.
6:35 Billy Corgan? People overlook the fact how much money you guys blew too. I mean, you guys blew it. I mean, no one's ever blown money like you guys. I mean, the production, people really knew what that stuff cost, you know?
6:46 Speaker 02 We, we learned through mistakes and nobody has to take up a collection for us. Our rent is well paid. But, you know, the idea of being like money hungry or anything like, it's not, it's not the case. I've always done this and we've always done this, ultimately, truly because of the joy it gives us.
7:19 Speaker 02 I was so fortunate. I grew up in an era that took us into the next era. But I grew up seeing Jimi Hendrix play for a couple of thousand people. Led Zeppelin, The Who with Buddy Guy opening in 69. Humble Pie, Derek and the Dominos, all these bands. That's, that's what I love and that's what I wanted to be.
7:50 Speaker 02 I never started doing this with the intention, I'm gonna be a millionaire. Back then millionaire was like, you know, the Monopoly man, you know, whoa, you know, that's incredible. But it was never about that. It was about, I wanna be that guy. I wanna be, I wanna be up there.
8:09 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
8:11 Speaker 02 I wanna be Steve Marriott. I wanna be, I wanna preach.
8:14 Billy Corgan? Who wouldn't wanna be Steve Marriott?
8:16 Speaker 02 I wanna be up there preaching rock and roll, you know, with, with everything.
8:20 Billy Corgan? When I interviewed Sharon Osbourne, I didn't know that she'd gone to school with Steve Marriott. So she knew him as a kid, when she was a kid. And we talked about that voice that came out of that body.
8:31 Speaker 02 Boy, I mean, a Les Paul on him looked like a bird land. I mean, it was, you know, but gosh, you know, you had to, you had to experience that a lot.
8:43 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
8:45 Speaker 02 But that's, that's what it was about for me. Um, yes, there's money generated and I want it. But it, that was, that was secondary. But it was important. If there is gonna be money, it belongs here.
9:04 Billy Corgan? Yeah. I guess, I guess what I'm after, and I'm not doing a good job of it, is, is fans tend to do this weird thing. They try to make these kind of arguments. It's like, it's either about integrity or money, you know? And my argument is, but why, why can't it be about both? Isn't, isn't, isn't success where the artist gets rewarded for their effort? And they maintain their integrity. In essence, they're executing their vision. Isn't that the ultimate win?
9:33 Speaker 02 Totally.
9:33 Billy Corgan? Because if you don't generate resources in the music business, you won't have any power. Because the people who actually control the world will, will put you in positions of which you don't have any choice of integrity. Does that, does this translate the way I'm saying?
9:47 Speaker 02 Yes, and money, what money gives you is the ability to stop worrying about money.
9:57 Speaker 02 And it gives you freedom.
9:58 Billy Corgan? What was the Duke Ellington thing? I know how to make a man a millionaire. Give him a dollar and he wants 10. And once he gets 10, he wants 100.
10:04 Speaker 02 It's, you know, money.
10:08 Speaker 02 Money is a, is a, is a great thing.
10:13 Speaker 02 But
10:15 Speaker 02 it, it gives you the opportunity. I, I think integrity is following
10:22 Speaker 02 your compass. Doesn't necessarily mean doing the right thing always. God knows we've done some, you know, some, we've fallen on our asses a few times. But
10:35 Speaker 02 money gives you the ability to survive that and to continue.
10:39 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Walk me through the, I'm not interested in the, in the financial aspect of the pop house deal, but I'm interested in, in, in, you know, Gene, of course, paints this rhapsodic picture of what you guys are going to do. I like to get the more practical vision of what you have. Of course, when you did the last show at Madison Square Gardens, there was the, the characters were flashed up and there was a lot of chatter about that. But what's your aspirational hope for, let's call it Kiss in your absence?
11:09 Speaker 02 Firstly, what was at Madison Square Garden? Was something where there was a, some, some dissension or contention even among us? Because it didn't represent what we were going to do. To create what we are doing takes years. And that was
11:31 Speaker 02 rather than taking it literally, it was just the idea that we will continue on.
11:37 Billy Corgan? Sure.
11:38 Speaker 02 Pardon me, in another form.
11:42 Speaker 02 What do I hope?
11:45 Speaker 02 That there's a
11:50 Speaker 02 That the core of this immersive experience is an accurate representation of the band at its best.
12:01 Speaker 02 Because nobody can be us better than us. So if there is a way, and there is, to create something lifelike and beyond realistic, something that you buy as real and then surround it with something unworldly.
12:25 Speaker 02 That that takes us into another realm, which most bands can never do. You know, we're not, you know, the the idea was never
12:36 Speaker 02 to recreate a concert where you go, doesn't that look like a real amp? You know, that's it's to create something that parallels what Kiss is, which is bigger than life and takes the imagination on a on a journey.
12:54 Billy Corgan? Yeah, it makes sense to me that there would be a posthumous life for the band as is, you know. It's like, I always say, when I was a kid and we would watch the wonderful world of Disney in Color on Sunday night at grandma's house, we didn't know that Disney was dead. We had no idea. We thought he was a living guy.
13:16 Speaker 02 Yeah.
13:16 Billy Corgan? Because he was presented as this character who ran this wonderful world called Disney and Disneyland.
13:22 Speaker 02 Good point. Um, yeah, I think that
13:28 Speaker 02 I was part of creating Kiss, but I can also step away from it and it lives on.
13:37 Billy Corgan? As that makes, but I mean, as a fellow artist, that makes total sense to me. That basically
13:45 Speaker 02 Pardon me to
13:45 Billy Corgan? No, no, no, you it's it's you I want to hear from.
13:48 Speaker 02 No, but but doesn't that make sense? Because whether or not you're Kiss and you can live on visually.
13:56 Speaker 02 As an artist creating music, your music lives on.
14:00 Billy Corgan? Well, that's the real important thing.
14:01 Speaker 02 Sure. So.
14:03 Billy Corgan? I'm sure that's at the heart of your desire is like that people are going to hear these great songs.
14:09 Speaker 02 And it's connected to these wonderful personas.
14:13 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
14:14 Speaker 02 That enhanced the the experience.
14:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah. We see we see it now with Star Wars and Star Trek and you know, like, there's this, there's these other lives that they didn't anticipate when they first created.
14:27 Speaker 02 Totally, totally. You can only create within the capacity and the technology. And as as that broadens.
14:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
14:41 Speaker 02 Other things become possible.
14:43 Billy Corgan? This is just a curiosity question. I'm sure you, you know, the Queen movie went on to be the most successful band by music biopic, I think, in the history.
14:56 Billy Corgan? I'm sure people have proposed it to you. Do you want to see like a Kiss, like a Kiss biopic?
15:02 Speaker 02 I'm on the fence about it.
15:06 Speaker 02 I would rather it never happen than happen badly.
15:11 Speaker 02 No.
15:13 Speaker 02 We don't need Kiss Meets the Phantom two. But, yeah, it would be, I would love to see it.
15:20 Billy Corgan? It'd almost be interesting as like a, like a Netflix mini series or something if they were willing to put up the money and do it right.
15:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
15:27 Billy Corgan? Because, you know, most people are going to gravitate towards the OG period because it's obvious. It has all the typical movie arcs, you know, this and this, right? All this typical stuff that they want in the movie. But I find your, your, your middle period just as fascinating.
15:41 Speaker 02 I, I have to say that the truth is far more interesting than anything that somebody could write. What we've gone through, where Gene and I in particular started, because we started before Kiss.
16:01 Billy Corgan? Wicked Lester.
16:01 Speaker 02 Yeah. And.
16:03 Billy Corgan? I'm still somewhat haunted by the she, the original she version with the flutes.
16:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, you know, that, that came.
16:10 Billy Corgan? Who knew?
16:11 Speaker 02 That came from a time where we were just so lucky to be, we were just thrilled.
16:18 Billy Corgan? Recording at night, right? Wasn't that the thing? You would go in at night?
16:20 Speaker 02 We would go in. We were going in on Electric Lady.
16:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
16:25 Speaker 02 Which was, you know, that's like Olympus, Mount Olympus.
16:29 Billy Corgan? Yeah, Jamie Hunter.
16:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
16:30 Billy Corgan? With Eddie Kramer.
16:31 Speaker 02 Yes, and we would go in, Wicked Lester was with Ron Johnson, this other producer. And we would record on spec time, which meant basically that if there was an artist who was booked time from noon until eight o'clock at night, we would show up at seven. They might go on till 12 or one o'clock in the morning, and we'd sit around for four or five hours and then go in and use that, that empty time.
17:06 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
17:06 Speaker 02 So, and during that time, truly, if there was a song that came out with a banjo, we put a banjo on a song. You know, I never heard the word euphonium. We had a euphonium, you know, on one of the songs. It was, it was, what's hot today, you know, oh, put a sitar on it.
17:29 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
17:32 Billy Corgan? No one sings like you, but I know you have your, your singing idols. I mean, we talked about Steve Marriott. Who, who are some of the other singers that you thought, I wish I could sing like them?
17:41 Speaker 02 Well, you only had to see Robert Plant in 1969 to bear witness to, to something where you.
17:52 Billy Corgan? It's unfair, isn't it?
17:53 Speaker 02 Yeah, it was like you gobsmacked, but you're also, you're just trying to figure out how in the world is he doing that? Just this, and exuding this sexuality and, but his voice was insane. Over the years, obviously, like everybody, the voice. Either deteriorates or changes, but at that that pinnacle, it was.
18:23 Billy Corgan? Oh, those kind of first four years, five versus voices almost without peer.
18:28 Speaker 02 Yeah.
18:29 Billy Corgan? And live, I mean, not just live in live in the studio.
18:31 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
18:32 Billy Corgan? You hear some of the outtakes and it's the same. It's not like he fixed it in the mix.
18:36 Speaker 02 No, what he was doing effortlessly was mind boggling to me because at that point, my voice didn't have a lot of range. And I I couldn't figure out how he was opening that door in the back to to get to that voice.
18:50 Billy Corgan? How did you figure out that upper voice in yours? Because it's it's very unique.
18:54 Speaker 02 It um, it just clicked during the eighties and the eighties suffered for it in some ways. Because all of a sudden, I found this way, you know, of getting into a head head voice, a combination.
19:11 Billy Corgan? You hit some impossible notes on those songs.
19:13 Speaker 02 I mean, ease, you know, I mean, just crazy, crazy notes.
19:20 Speaker 02 And not necessarily needed on those songs. But it was like, hey, I can do.
19:26 Billy Corgan? I could do it some of that.
19:27 Speaker 02 Yeah. So, yeah, I listen to some of that now and I'm incredulous at those notes. But um, yeah, I I listening to.
19:40 Billy Corgan? Like forever. And there's like, I can hear your voice like.
19:44 Speaker 02 And it was effortless.
19:45 Billy Corgan? Really?
19:45 Speaker 02 Oh, totally. I could do that for hours. I mean, we would go in the studio and I would sing something to just. Let's do that again. Let's do that again for hours.
19:59 Speaker 02 Interesting story. It was an interesting time for me. I had known Ron Neveson for years, the producer. And we finally went in to work with him on an album that some people like and some people don't like. But I was thrilled to go in with him because Ron had done Zeppelin. He'd done Heart, he had done The Babies, he had done a lot of work with really good singers, Bad Company. And I'm in there first, I I played him the demos. He said, you made my work easy because we're just gonna basically copy the demos. But when I was singing and I'm thinking, he's going to take me to someplace I've never been.
20:41 Speaker 02 And I said, I sang one of the songs and I said, let's do it again. And he goes, why? And I said, well, because I can do it better. And he goes, who's going to know?
20:54 Speaker 02 And I was like, it was kind of like wah wah. I was like, really? But yeah, I mean, Robert Plant was was very, very important as was Steve Marriott as a performer and as as a conduit, as a preacher, that that was naughty holder.
21:18 Billy Corgan? Right? Never thought about that with you. That makes sense.
21:21 Speaker 02 Yeah, just those those foghorn voices.
21:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
21:27 Speaker 02 And the way I wasn't going to be out there, although we did it with Kiss, so I got a chance to do it, you know, with just a microphone and swinging the mic, but I was going to be, I guess, more Steve Marriott. I played a guitar, so I'm going to be the guy talking. But yeah, I wanted I wanted to preach. I wanted to I wanted to talk to the people in the very back row.
21:52 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Well, there's those great YouTube clips where it's just you talking.
21:56 Speaker 02 Yeah, possessed. Possessed.
22:06 Billy Corgan? How do you rate yourself as a songwriter? Do you are you comfortable as a songwriter? Do you feel strong as a songwriter? I can't I can't think of where you've really talked about it much. Maybe I didn't see it.
22:18 Speaker 02 I was thinking last night, and I've thought this before, that over time, over years, I became a technically better songwriter, but I will never write something as good as Come On and Love Me or Love Gun, songs that didn't know what you can and can't do.
22:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
22:41 Speaker 02 Songs that came from you and weren't labored over.
22:45 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
22:46 Speaker 02 She's a dancer, a romancer, I'm a Capricorn and she's a Cancer. I saw her picture in a music magazine when she, you know, I couldn't do.
22:55 Billy Corgan? But you were living it too. That's a, that's a different mindset too.
22:58 Speaker 02 Well, even before I was living it, I was fantasizing living it. I ultimately wound up living it.
23:04 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
23:05 Speaker 02 I mean, a song like Room Service is me just going, whee, you know, this is unbelievable. You know, the unpopular kid is, is in the candy store, you know, but so before we had that kind of attention, sure, Strutter. I saw those girls, those women on the street. They wanted nothing to do with me. They were with the dolls or whoever, you know, was, was playing at the Mercer Arts Center or going to Max's.
23:38 Speaker 02 So those kind of songs came from, I wanted to be there. I wound up there and you know, those were joyous songs, songs of, you know, celebrating
23:52 Speaker 02 debauchery, but also celebrating debauchery and being.
23:58 Billy Corgan? Well, do you write the line, put your hand in my pocket?
24:01 Speaker 02 Grab onto my rocket. Yeah.
24:03 Billy Corgan? Now, I, I heard that when I was about 10 and I didn't know what it meant, but I knew it wasn't good.
24:07 Speaker 02 Yeah. Well, you know, good guy, Miss Molly sure liked to ball, you know, it's.
24:14 Billy Corgan? Amazing you got away with that.
24:16 Speaker 02 Totally, totally.
24:20 Speaker 02 But hey, I, Peaches and Herb, there's one perfect fit and this one is it. And that's like a love song between, well, what are you singing about, you know?
24:35 Billy Corgan? So were there people that you looked to? To teach you how to songwrite? Because like, most rock people don't go to school to learn how to write songs. They, they listen to somebody or.
24:47 Speaker 02 Yeah.
24:47 Billy Corgan? So who, who were your songwriting kind of gurus?
24:55 Speaker 02 Basically, what I was doing was hearing songs that I liked and trying to write my version.
25:02 Speaker 02 Scott Muni, the disc jockey in New York on N E W, he had a program once a week called the British Power Hour, and he would play like the top 10 in England. I was a huge Anglophile. That was really the music that I loved. God love Jefferson Airplane and all that kind of stuff. I had no time for that. To me, what was going on on the other side of the pond was so interesting. So, for example, I heard a song called Fire Brigade by The Move.
25:37 Billy Corgan? Don't know that one.
25:37 Speaker 02 Oh, it was a big hit over there. And while I couldn't find that song or afford that song, I wrote Firehouse, you know. And it's basically the same, get the fire brigade, you know.
25:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
25:57 Speaker 02 And get the firehouse.
25:58 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
25:59 Speaker 02 So, I had a tendency to pattern songs on songs that I liked. And that's, that's a good thing.
26:08 Billy Corgan? There's a lot of kind of 50s changes in your, in your, in your chordal work, but it doesn't sound 50s the way you do it. You put your own spin on it. But to me, quarterly, there's a lot of kind of.
26:21 Speaker 02 Well, there was also, I loved, I mean, I love great rhythm guitar playing, whether it's Richie Havens or Pete Townsend.
26:31 Billy Corgan? Richie Havens is an incredible rhythm player.
26:32 Speaker 02 It's insane.
26:34 Billy Corgan? You ever tried to play the way he played with the, with the one chord and the thumb?
26:37 Speaker 02 That thumb?
26:38 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
26:38 Speaker 02 That thumb?
26:39 Billy Corgan? You know, he tuned, you know, he tuned the guitar just to one chord.
26:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
26:41 Billy Corgan? So you basically play one finger.
26:42 Speaker 02 Yeah. Yeah. But once, you know, he would also.
26:46 Billy Corgan? Yeah, he'd add a little bit of.
26:47 Speaker 02 Yeah. But Richie Havens, I mean, when Evan, my oldest, was playing guitar, I said, listen to Richie Havens because this.
26:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
26:56 Speaker 02 This is great, but this is where you play guitar.
26:59 Billy Corgan? Some of those Richie Havens albums are really, really well produced.
27:02 Speaker 02 Beautiful.
27:03 Billy Corgan? Really cool, cool sounds.
27:04 Speaker 02 Beautiful. So, as far as what we were talking about.
27:10 Billy Corgan? Songwriters.
27:11 Speaker 02 Songwriters. You know, you get into.
27:16 Speaker 02 Carole King, Jerry Goffin, you get into Barry Manin, Cynthia Weill, Jeff Barry and Ellie Greenwich.
27:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I was, I was listening. I'm sure you've done that where you hear a song, who wrote this song? And whether it was Walking in the Rain by the Rennats and it's Man and Wheel or Wild, I mean, what a song. I mean, it's still goosebumps to this day. It's like.
27:41 Speaker 02 You know, well, Barry Manin, I, I, I knew Barry from, from Electric Lady Forward and Barry is, I mean, R and B on Broadway.
27:53 Billy Corgan? I didn't know that.
27:54 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah. So, um,
27:57 Speaker 02 yeah, tho- those people, tho- they wrote songs, man, because they understood the formula.
28:04 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
28:06 Speaker 02 You know, You've Lost That Loving Feeling, that's Barry Manin and Cynthia.
28:09 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Yeah, there is that, there is that thing that oftentimes gets lost in translation with the rock and roll because the radio playlists up through the early to mid seventies were very regional. So people who grew up in the Northeast got a very different physical education than people growing up.
28:23 Speaker 02 Yes.
28:24 Billy Corgan? Where I grew up in Chicago. And like, if you listen to Tommy James, you can really hear that doo-wop influence, but then that kind of psychedelia, but it's very east coast. And like you said, the west coast, the Jefferson Airplane version, Buffalo Springfield, it's a very different kind of psychedelia.
28:40 Speaker 02 Yes.
28:41 Billy Corgan? Less influenced by doo-wop and more influenced by, I guess, I don't know, people smoking weed or something. I don't know.
28:45 Speaker 02 Yeah.
28:45 Billy Corgan? Very different.
28:46 Speaker 02 More based, I think, probably on acoustic, on the folk.
28:51 Billy Corgan? Yeah, exactly. More folk. Yeah.
28:52 Speaker 02 Yeah. Yeah, very, very much so. That different areas had, um, you know, the.
29:02 Billy Corgan? You know, it just occurred to me because harmonies are kind of a hidden thing in your music. I'm not saying it's hidden, but I'm saying is there's a very unique Kiss vocal harmony style. Was there somebody you guys pattern yourselves after?
29:15 Speaker 02 I've always loved harmonies and one of the, the great things in my family was when I was growing up, all four of us, my parents, my sister and I, we all had really good voices and we would sing.
29:29 Billy Corgan? Oh, so you just grew up with that?
29:30 Speaker 02 Just grew up singing innately in four part, we sang in great harmonies. So, that was always, always something special.
29:41 Speaker 02 There's, I mean, the birds, you know, their, their harmonies were fantastic and.
29:47 Billy Corgan? It's unfair when you hear those voices.
29:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, and I.
29:50 Billy Corgan? Crosby, Gene Clark.
29:51 Speaker 02 Gene Clark, you know, there's an unsung hero.
29:54 Billy Corgan? Oh, unbelievable.
29:55 Speaker 02 You know.
29:55 Billy Corgan? One of my favorites all time.
29:56 Speaker 02 Me too, you know.
29:59 Billy Corgan? Did you ever listen to the stuff he did after he left the?
30:01 Speaker 02 Yeah.
30:01 Billy Corgan? Early country.
30:02 Speaker 02 Some of it got a little, you know, a little, little out there. A little out there, but, uh, you know.
30:08 Billy Corgan? But him with Dillard and Clark.
30:10 Speaker 02 Yeah.
30:10 Billy Corgan? And there's some interesting stuff.
30:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
30:12 Billy Corgan? So, um.
30:15 Billy Corgan? Because your, your history in music is so oft explored, I just want to kind of tangentially touch on it because there's almost no way to express it, but I, I thought it'd be interesting to kind of do it this way. So if we break your, your, your life into these, these four eras that I've somehow made up my own version that you have four eras of music.
30:33 Billy Corgan? I, I thought, okay, with the original band, take me, take me to the moment in your life when you're standing on stage somewhere and you think, like, wow, this is really gonna work. Is there like a specific show or specific?
30:45 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think, I think it was Dayton, Ohio.
30:50 Billy Corgan? I love it.
30:51 Speaker 02 Yeah, and, um, we were, we were playing, we, we, we could do 14 shows in a row, whatever, we.
31:00 Billy Corgan? Were you on one of these package tours where it was like you and Rush and, you know, was one of those?
31:04 Speaker 02 Rush did their first tour opening for us. Everybody, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers were.
31:10 Billy Corgan? But I'm saying.
31:10 Speaker 02 Yeah.
31:11 Billy Corgan? That those were the times where there was all these shifting bills.
31:13 Speaker 02 Yeah, um, but we were.
31:17 Speaker 02 I would always say to our road manager before the show when we were getting ready, how are we doing? And what that meant was.
31:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah.
31:25 Speaker 02 Our ticket sales.
31:26 Billy Corgan? Empty seats.
31:27 Speaker 02 And I remember, how are we doing? Sold out. Oh, cool. And then next night, how are we doing? Sold out. And it's like.
31:37 Speaker 02 And then I'm going, do I sense a pattern here?
31:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
31:40 Speaker 02 And I remember before we went on, I was all made up and ready. And we had a curtain, like a kabuki. And I went out and looked down and I was like, oh my God, this place is packed. And that's when I thought, wow, this is, uh, this is, this is happening. You know, I, I, I always thought of it, um, analogous to, you know, you're, you're on the roller coaster and you're being pulled up and you know, sooner or later, suddenly, you know,
32:15 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
32:15 Speaker 02 you better hold on, cause this is gonna get pretty tricky.
32:21 Billy Corgan? My sense of it at the time, and I was young, was you were as hot a band in that period as any band has ever been in the history of rock and roll. Was that, was that how you felt or saw it?
32:33 Speaker 02 You're in this, you know, you're in the eye of the hurricane. So.
32:36 Billy Corgan? But that was a pretty fierce hurricane.
32:38 Speaker 02 Yeah.
32:41 Speaker 02 I was certainly aware, I, I think more, more so that we were on a crusade. We were, we were taking no prisoners and we were just going, we were going to conquer the world. And that's really, um, um, more that than, than the impact we were having. By destroyer, yeah, then, then I was aware that this is out of control. This is massive. But before that, I, I was more committed to.
33:16 Billy Corgan? I see.
33:17 Speaker 02 To the, the outcome that we wanted.
33:21 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Was it as simple as we want to be the biggest band in the world? Was that something you would say or? I know it sounds silly to say it, but I used to tell my band, we're gonna be the biggest band in the world because I needed to believe in something.
33:36 Speaker 02 I, I think we did the same. I think that's, that's probably a cliche, but I think that it's something that you aspire to.
33:47 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
33:49 Speaker 02 You know, if it's up here and you reach here. That's okay, but you have to aim for there.
33:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
33:57 Speaker 02 So, yeah, um, I remember when we first got together with Bill O'Coin, our manager, who became our manager, and he had, he didn't have a pot to piss in and never managed a band, but it was meant to be. And he said, if you don't want to be the biggest band in the world, I don't want to manage you. And it was like, that's our man, you know?
34:22 Billy Corgan? There's the guy.
34:23 Speaker 02 That's the guy, you know, and uh, yeah, I thi- I think um, naivete is a good thing if it's coupled with determination. If you just think you can will something to happen or imagine it.
34:43 Speaker 02 If you have a, a objective, and if you want to get to that end of the field, you don't see the obstacles.
34:50 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
34:51 Speaker 02 You just keep looking there.
34:52 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I feel like if you knew how hard it was, it would mess you up. You almost have to believe it somehow. It's like a magical spell or something that happens.
35:00 Speaker 02 Totally. I, I, I often thought, you know, if I knew how long it was going to take me to feel I was a good guitar player, I never would have picked up the guitar.
35:11 Billy Corgan? So, uh, there's these kind of, I don't know, funny is not the right word. There's these interesting moments because like I said, in my impression, and, and I, I was at least there and I was watching.
35:25 Billy Corgan? My impression was this, this band is as hot as the Beatles were. You would hear about the Beatles in the seventies, but you guys were like the living embodiment of what that like Beatlemania felt like. At least that's what it felt like where I was growing up. But then you have these weird cultural moments of like Kiss beats the Phantom. And I oftentimes think of that you guys on, uh, was it the, was it Tom Snyder? Where, where Ace just, Ace just goes off.
35:49 Speaker 02 Yeah.
35:50 Billy Corgan? And you could almost, I, I maybe I'm projecting, but I just see you guys' faces like, oh my God, what's happening?
35:55 Speaker 02 It's, it's somewhere between panic and anger, and anger.
36:00 Billy Corgan? I would say more anger.
36:02 Speaker 02 Yeah. Yeah, um, yeah, that.
36:06 Speaker 02 Yes, we reached a point where in Australia, when we went there in 1980, it was pegged as Cisteria.
36:15 Billy Corgan? Well, that was Shandy was a huge hit.
36:16 Speaker 02 Yeah, and you know.
36:18 Billy Corgan? You guys played like crazy crowds.
36:20 Speaker 02 Crazy crowds and we were locked in the hotel and we would have these wild parties every night. Where the promoter would invite every female celebrity, actress, newscaster and leave your boyfriends home. So, yeah, we lived that where you, we had the whole floor of a hotel and then you can only get out of the hotel if you lay on the bottom of a truck. And we did the same thing in Japan when we broke the Beatles record for concerts at Budokan.
36:55 Speaker 02 So, yeah, we, we, we were aware, but I was never delusional in the sense of comparing us to the Beatles. Let other people do that. It's, it's an insane comparison.
37:11 Billy Corgan? I just mean it because.
37:13 Speaker 02 In terms of the adulation and that, that fan veracity.
37:21 Billy Corgan? Sure.
37:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, it, it, it certainly existed and, and from time to time bands have that.
37:28 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I just made it through the prism of very few bands cross into the culture.
37:33 Speaker 02 Hmm.
37:34 Billy Corgan? Where it becomes a cultural phenomenon, not just a musical phenomenon.
37:37 Speaker 02 Well, that's, I, I say, you know, bands make music, phenomenons impact society.
37:43 Billy Corgan? Right.
37:44 Speaker 02 And it's, it's kind of that simple.
37:47 Billy Corgan? So skipping to the, to the next era, we'll call it the makeup off era. What was the, what was the internal logic? Like we've taken this as far as it can go or what was the internal thinking?
37:58 Speaker 02 Survival.
38:04 Speaker 02 We reached a point where I felt that people were listening with their eyes.
38:12 Speaker 02 And
38:12 Billy Corgan? Can I, can I, sorry, I gotta stop you because this blows my mind. Okay. So I, I went to one of these AI chat GPT rock type of things. And I said, list for me the top 10 American rock bands of all time. And you guys weren't in the top 10 and every, at some point, they were listing the records. And you guys have sold over 100 million records. So you weren't in the top 10. And I wrote to the chat GPT thing, why isn't Kiss in the top 10? And chat GPT or whoever was apologized to me and said, well, they're oftentimes discounted for their theatricality.
38:59 Billy Corgan? And I said, what difference does that make?
39:02 Speaker 02 Exactly.
39:02 Billy Corgan? When I'm asking a business question and chat GPT again apologized. And then slotted you guys in where you belonged.
39:10 Speaker 02 Thank you.
39:11 Billy Corgan? But it was such a weird, I mean, we're talking about like just the fact that a machine learning AI system would discount your accomplishment is so, that's such like, that's such a weird thing.
39:21 Speaker 02 Well, somebody had to feed that into the
39:23 Billy Corgan? That's what I, that's what I'm trying to say is
39:25 Speaker 02 Yeah, um, to discount music because of theatricality.
39:33 Speaker 02 Look, when I would jump up in the air or slide across the stage, that's considered some sort of like
39:43 Speaker 02 kitschy showman, you know, that, that's, that's not credible, but there are other people who do it, who are great, you know,
39:52 Billy Corgan? Well, you know,
39:53 Speaker 02 ultimate showman.
39:54 Billy Corgan? You know, they'll use a stick on one person and then the next person somehow that's a, an attribute.
39:59 Speaker 02 Yeah. So, um,
40:02 Speaker 02 Where were we?
40:03 Billy Corgan? Sorry.
40:04 Speaker 02 No, that's. Oh, we were talking about survival.
40:06 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
40:07 Speaker 02 So people were listening with their eyes and didn't like what they were seeing. So even though Creatures is a great album, as far as I'm concerned. And even on that album, I had said to Gene, we should take off the makeup. And we didn't, and the album did not do well. And then we did take it off and understandably, it was much more difficult for him to take off the makeup. And we did it for Lick It Up.
40:37 Billy Corgan? Why was it more difficult for him?
40:40 Speaker 02 Because his face and that persona really is
40:47 Speaker 02 is the visual face of the band.
40:50 Billy Corgan? I see.
40:51 Speaker 02 Um, there's just no denying that, you know?
40:54 Billy Corgan? Yeah, like if, if, if the Stones is the lips and the tongue.
40:58 Speaker 02 You know, jeans, that.
40:59 Billy Corgan? Jeans, makeup and the tongue.
41:00 Speaker 02 Hair, come on, you know?
41:04 Speaker 02 When I saw it, I went, wow, okay.
41:08 Speaker 02 I, I can't top that. So, um.
41:12 Billy Corgan? Yeah, you were there.
41:13 Speaker 02 Yeah. So it was, it was much tougher for him because what I've always done has been basically me. You know, me as a performer.
41:21 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
41:22 Speaker 02 So, um.
41:23 Billy Corgan? Did you guys unmask on MTV? Wasn't that the thing?
41:26 Speaker 02 Yes.
41:26 Billy Corgan? I was watching live, so I remember that much.
41:28 Speaker 02 Which, which is peculiar in itself because
41:33 Speaker 02 there were two guys who had not been in the band all the time.
41:38 Billy Corgan? Right.
41:38 Speaker 02 You know, so, you know, um,
41:44 Speaker 02 to have the guitar player who had played on one album.
41:46 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
41:47 Speaker 02 Suddenly taking off his make, makeup. But, um, yeah, so we took off the makeup and lo and behold, the Lick It Up album did.
41:58 Billy Corgan? That's huge.
41:59 Speaker 02 Yeah, and.
42:01 Billy Corgan? The songs have really aged well, I think, too.
42:03 Speaker 02 It's a good songs. Those are.
42:04 Billy Corgan? Heaven's on Fire, Lick It Up, right?
42:07 Speaker 02 Heaven's on Fire is on Animalize on the next album.
42:10 Billy Corgan? That period, I think, is more fondly remembered than I would have imagined at the time.
42:15 Speaker 02 Interestingly, there are people who were introduced to the band through those albums.
42:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
42:20 Speaker 02 And, and, hey, Max Martin grew up on those albums.
42:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
42:25 Speaker 02 You know?
42:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah, it was, it was, I think, for OG fans, it was, it was a tough time. And because you guys were sort of generally lumped in with the hair metal scene. And as you know, the grunge thing was very much a reaction against hair metal. The ballads being the number one offender.
42:41 Speaker 02 Well, everybody had to have a power, but it's a ballad, but it's a power ballad.
42:46 Billy Corgan? But I think about 800 of those MTV basically launched the grunge revolution. It was a revenge play because we were just like, we can't handle any more ballads.
42:54 Speaker 02 The pendulum swung.
42:55 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
42:56 Speaker 02 Yeah, look, we had our moments.
43:00 Billy Corgan? I guess, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I, I think, because I don't want to skip past that period because I think it's a really strong musical period. Something about taking off the makeup, it's something about the band being reinvigorated with the public.
43:12 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:12 Billy Corgan? A lot of great music came out of that period.
43:14 Speaker 02 We certainly weren't leading the parade. But we were.
43:19 Billy Corgan? But can I, can I make a musical point to you?
43:21 Speaker 02 Sure.
43:22 Billy Corgan? I've, my memory of it at the time was you guys were getting in behind the shifting trend. But when I actually went back and listened to the music in the last five years, because I did this thing where I went through and listened to your whole catalog in a row. I do these weird things where I just want to listen to everything in a row because I end up changing my perceptions about things. Because sometimes your perception of the time is actually inaccurate, which is weird because you were there. And what I realized was you guys had a lot more to do with, more people in the hair metal scene were ripping you off than I thought at the time. So I didn't, even though at the time my perception was you were following, I actually think you had a lot more to do with it.
43:59 Speaker 02 Well, yeah, certainly a lot of those bands had listened to us.
44:03 Billy Corgan? Yeah. So I'm saying is there's more Kiss in those bands than I would have thought at the time because I think I got caught up like everybody else, whatever was the new thing.
44:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, the clothes got ridiculous, you know, we, we looked like we got dressed in the dark in a, in a costume store. You know, what do you think, my feather earrings? Oh, good. Goes with your eye makeup, you know, but. Yeah, it was a way for us to continue and in a way. I wanted the band to continue. I wasn't ready. Nobody can tell me when this band is over.
44:37 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
44:37 Speaker 02 And, you know, I did do interviews with journalists towards the end of the makeup period where they could be so
44:47 Speaker 02 they could be such vitriol, you know, somebody has has joy in making you squirm.
44:55 Billy Corgan? What was the, what was the, what was the source of the vitriol?
45:00 Speaker 02 Probably angered how long we had succeeded. So finally, the death knell. So how does it feel to be on the Titanic? Was like a
45:11 Billy Corgan? Well, you got the last laugh on that one.
45:13 Speaker 02 I was kind of like how, I'm a human being. How, how could you say that? And all I could think was nobody's going to tell me when this ends and watch this.
45:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
45:25 Speaker 02 And you have to have a reason to, to continue and, and mine was that nobody gets to tell me when it's over.
45:36 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I think it's really interesting because again, I I didn't love that period at the time and I like it a lot more now. And what I'm impressed by, because I've been around long enough to know that this isn't a simple thing to, to accomplish. And you could argue I have an accomplishment is, is to find a whole new vein of music in an adjacent, but different style. That does match with the zeitgeist of the times. It really speaks to your musical ability and your songwriting ability because
46:04 Billy Corgan? in many ways, you'd stripped off all the accoutrement that you were accused of using.
46:08 Speaker 02 Yeah.
46:11 Speaker 02 There were certainly some missteps that I listen to now and go, gee. All I can say is that we committed ourselves a hundred percent to everything we did. And believed that we were doing the best we could when we did things and some, some of it is, is pretty awful.
46:32 Billy Corgan? I won't ask.
46:36 Billy Corgan? Just, I don't want to talk much about your, your, your musical partner because, you know, he says enough on his own, but when he started getting into other things, you know, like, I call it like Gene with the ponytail in the movies.
46:48 Speaker 02 Gene?
46:49 Billy Corgan? How'd you, how would you feel about that? Did you see him as being, like, remember, remember when Keith Richards was very critical of Mick Jagger?
46:56 Speaker 02 Yeah.
46:56 Billy Corgan? Like, hey, you're in the Rolling Stones, like, what the hell are you doing? Did you have a similar?
47:00 Speaker 02 Oh, very much, very much. I, I felt betrayed.
47:06 Speaker 02 No, no secret. I felt that he was leaving me to do the heavy work.
47:17 Speaker 02 But continually, continued to get paid.
47:23 Speaker 02 So, you know, trying to have the best of both worlds, go off and do your own thing and have the success in, in any level that there was success. And the monetary compensation, which I'm not sharing in, but you're abandoning ship and you're still my partner.
47:47 Billy Corgan? I see.
47:48 Speaker 02 So, yeah, no, I, I, I, I felt very resentful and, and, and hurt. You know, I, I didn't, I, I wouldn't at that time have said I was hurt. I would say I was angry, but I was hurt. You know, Gene's my, my, my brother, he's been with me since I was seventeen. So that, that was really, that was, that was difficult, really difficult.
48:16 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
48:17 Speaker 02 But again, it was, well, screw it, I'm not gonna let this band fall apart.
48:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
48:23 Speaker 02 You know, if it's, if, if, if it's my band in that sense, then so be it. You know, if I gotta be in the middle in a video, then let's do that. But, yeah, I, I, I felt that he was selling the band short. The, the quality of the writing was not good. Yeah, I, I, I, I thought he was, he wasn't playing fair.
48:48 Billy Corgan? I like that.
48:51 Billy Corgan? This is an oversimplification, but that's the world we live in.
48:56 Billy Corgan? In my mind, there's that moment where you take off the makeup for the last time. And I know it. Like recently, you did a commercial and you were in the makeup. So I'm I'm being somewhat dramatic, but there's that moment you you play the last show in the makeup that era is over.
49:13 Billy Corgan? I guess I'm asking you a bit of an existential question, like, how do you view the character that you played? You know, and I'm not saying something as simple as is it you, because obviously it's an extension of you. You wouldn't have played it so well for so long. But do you see that character with affection? Do you see it with detached? I'm just curious. It's like, it's here's maybe the best way to say.
49:35 Billy Corgan? In later years, Charlie Chaplin spoke very fondly of of the tramp. Character. He'd done other things and he'd been successful in doing other things. But he came to almost speak about the tramp character as if it was its own.
49:48 Speaker 02 I totally, totally. I I I I get that. And the star child grew with me. The star child, you know,
50:02 Speaker 02 on that last night of Madison Square Garden was not the one who started at Madison Square Garden or in the clubs that we played in. He became who he was as I became who I was. I mean, there's there's a parallel path. Yeah, but um, yeah, I I can separate the two. That he's very much me. But he's a he's he's he's a separate, a separate entity. And it it it shows in when people would come to the show over the years. They said, you know, I was different. Well, as I as I progressed or went down this this road
50:47 Speaker 02 offstage,
50:50 Speaker 02 I went down another road onstage.
50:52 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Do you have any musical ambitions left?
50:57 Speaker 02 Oh, um.
51:02 Billy Corgan? Past being custodian of this incredible thing that you two have built.
51:08 Speaker 02 I love Soul Station. I love, I love, I love those people. Somehow, we all came together and it's just a blessing.
51:21 Speaker 02 I have incredible reverence for Philly Soul and for Motown. I grew up with that as much as I grew up with, you know, Led Zeppelin or anything like that. So I love doing that and want to continue doing that.
51:41 Speaker 02 I have no, you know, I have no fantasies that anything I ever do is going to come close to what I did.
51:50 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
51:50 Speaker 02 Or have done, but that's, that's what life is about is, is, is that sometimes we, we have to leave things behind and go forward.
52:03 Billy Corgan? Would there be, this is might be my own version of it, but is there a, is there a desire to make a more personal music? Does that translate the way I'm asking it? Cause your, your, your life for 50 years was defined by satisfying the public at such a high level. And it does have a cost and I'm not saying it's compromise in the way people would associate compromise. But you have to take into some sort of consideration, there's an audience and are they going to listen and they're going to like it? Is there, is there, is there a, like, you know, I'm not saying bossing over or something, but is there something like a music that you would long to make? That really is just for you?
52:40 Speaker 02 Well, I mean, that's why I started doing Soul Station was because I.
52:45 Billy Corgan? What was this? This is the first song in that record. I can't read that.
52:49 Speaker 02 First one that is.
52:50 Billy Corgan? Oh, I love.
52:51 Speaker 02 Could it be I'm Falling in Love?
52:52 Billy Corgan? Okay.
52:53 Speaker 02 Spinners.
52:53 Billy Corgan? But there's, there's a song that you wrote.
52:55 Speaker 02 Oh, the next one, I O I.
52:57 Billy Corgan? I like that.
52:57 Speaker 02 Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I arranged.
53:00 Billy Corgan? That's a cool tune.
53:01 Speaker 02 Yeah. I arranged the horns and the strings.
53:03 Billy Corgan? That's gotta be fun.
53:04 Speaker 02 Oh, it's, it's fantastic. You know, it's a, so that's something I wanted to do and will continue doing.
53:14 Speaker 02 Could I put a band together and strap on a guitar and do that? Yeah. All bets are off, you know, I.
53:23 Billy Corgan? You have to almost detox from all that adrenaline.
53:27 Speaker 02 I had to.
53:29 Speaker 02 Honestly, I, I, um, I put the guitar away for a long time. I needed to, I needed, I, I just needed to, to take a deep breath.
53:41 Billy Corgan? I bet.
53:42 Speaker 02 And, and distance myself a little.
53:46 Billy Corgan? The one thing I think people don't understand is when you're up in front of a lot of people, that's a lot of energy passing through.
53:52 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
53:53 Billy Corgan? Your being.
53:54 Speaker 02 Yeah.
53:55 Billy Corgan? And, and you've played for about just as many people as anybody's ever played for in the history of the planet.
54:01 Speaker 02 Yeah, you play in front of a hundred eighty thousand people.
54:04 Billy Corgan? It does something.
54:06 Speaker 02 Doesn't it? I mean, you just feel, you, you feel this like a locomotive, you, or, or, um, a tornado. The, the, the force from the audiences is.
54:19 Billy Corgan? It's indescribable, right?
54:20 Speaker 02 It really is. It's, and well, you don't see it, but you, you feel this incredible.
54:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
54:28 Speaker 02 Amount of energy that's just.
54:31 Billy Corgan? People will say to me, what's it like playing in front of eighty thousand people? Like, it's like riding a tidal wave. I don't know. It's amazing.
54:38 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's nothing you can, can describe. And any way that you described it would never do it justice.
54:45 Billy Corgan? Yeah, it's, it, the words don't. I saw a quote attributed to you, but I have a feeling it's not true. So you tell me if it's accurate, but it was something along the lines of like, all I ever wanted to be was a star. Is that something? I saw somewhere where it said it was came out of your mouth, and I saw another thing that said you never said that. Oh, it's almost like a, like, like a line, uh, played against Sam, like something you never said, but it.
55:07 Speaker 02 Yeah.
55:07 Billy Corgan? It goes with the character.
55:08 Speaker 02 Yeah, I may have said, you know, just like played again, Sam is kind of like a distorted version of what was actually.
55:16 Billy Corgan? Yes.
55:16 Speaker 02 Said, um, all I ever wanted to be, no, it's, it's so.
55:22 Billy Corgan? It sounds, it sounds a bit Betty Davis, doesn't it?
55:24 Speaker 02 Yeah, and it's so mundane and, and small.
55:29 Billy Corgan? That's why I didn't, that's why I had a feeling you didn't say it, but I wanted to ask because it, it seemed to make this point that I was after. But, um, I'll go to it a different way.
55:41 Billy Corgan? When did you first become conscious of the concept of celebrity or fame? Or was it Beatles or, you know, it was like the first time you saw it, okay, there's a star in the heaven and it looks like that.
55:50 Speaker 02 Hmm.
55:56 Speaker 02 I think the way I could relate to it best was probably an Elvis or something like that, where, you know, there's a commotion and girls are swooning and there's chaos. To see him doing those steps he did on stage. So I think Elvis might be the first.
56:22 Billy Corgan? What year would that have been for you?
56:24 Speaker 02 It had to be probably fifty-seven or so.
56:30 Billy Corgan? He would have been pretty young.
56:31 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah. I loved rock and roll from the time I was a little kid. From Elvis to Eddie Cochran to Lee Andrews and the Hearts, to Dion and the Belmonts, to Vito and the Elegance, to the Impalas, you know, it's always been, you know, it's always been my salvation, my oxygen. It always gave me comfort, you know, tor and dot, listening to Nissun Dharma, listening to, you know, listening to music that just fills you up.
57:11 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
57:12 Speaker 02 It inflated me.
57:17 Billy Corgan? So I guess the last point I'm after is, if you could go back in a time machine, would that little kid believe that you became that?
57:28 Billy Corgan? It's a strange point to make, but you're in the rare position of, you did it.
57:35 Speaker 02 Yes, he could, but he would have no idea of the complexity or...
57:42 Billy Corgan? Or the bull.
57:43 Speaker 02 Yeah, of what it means and what went into it.
57:48 Speaker 02 Me back then could look and go, wow, you really became a star, or you became, you know, whatever you are, but...
57:57 Speaker 02 All the nuance of it that makes it what it is would would be lost just like trying to tell somebody what it feels like when you feel that energy from it. There are certain things in life that someone will never experience and can't really comprehend.
58:15 Billy Corgan? So, simple question one on one, would you do it all over again?
58:19 Speaker 02 In a heartbeat.
58:22 Speaker 02 I've beaten my body up something, you know.
58:26 Billy Corgan? You had hip hip replacements?
58:27 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, rotator, both my rotator cuffs.
58:30 Billy Corgan? Goodness.
58:31 Speaker 02 Had to be repaired. I popped my bicep tendon. I've had both my knees scoped. I had a hip replacement. I'm sure I'll need another on the other side. Yeah. You know, everything comes with a price. Is it worth the price? Hell, yeah.
58:48 Billy Corgan? Thank you.
58:49 Speaker 02 Thank you. This was great.
58:51 Billy Corgan? Thank you. God bless you.
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