Pod Insights The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan Nancy Wilson of Heart | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan About this episode In this candid conversation with Billy Corgan, legendary Heart co-founder Nancy Wilson reflects on a nomadic childhood shaped by military life, seeing The Beatles on Ed Sullivan, and falling in love with the guitar. She revisits the Vancouver club grind, the rare alchemy of sibling harmony, and earning credibility in a male-dominated rock world. Nancy also looks back on the 80s era of big hair, outside songwriters, and creative compromise, before turning personal around Ann—her once-in-a-generation gift, what it demands, and the isolation that comes when identity is inseparable from the stage. It’s a sharp, unsentimental look at what it takes to build something that survives trends, egos, and time.
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Transcript 16,591 words · 4 speakers
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0:59 Speaker 02 Nobody knows where they're going at the beginning of their life like that. I feel like way too lucky.
1:06 Billy Corgan? You were really accepted by a rock audience wholeheartedly.
1:12 Speaker 02 When the sisters sing together, there's this thing that happens.
1:16 Billy Corgan? There's something magical about when siblings can put their voices together. It's a God-given kind of spookiness.
1:22 Speaker 02 It is kind of spooky.
1:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah, it's like beauty, charisma, sass, fire.
1:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:29 Billy Corgan? A voice, not just a voice, a voice that means something to people.
1:34 Speaker 02 It sounds great on the radio and you just want to roll down your window, you know, and chew gum or something.
1:44 Billy Corgan? Nancy, thank you for being here.
1:46 Speaker 02 I'm happy to be here.
1:49 Billy Corgan? It's such a big story, so I'm going to start in a very obvious spot. I'll try to avoid all the obvious, but it it seems such a watershed moment when the Beatles start appearing at Ed Sullivan, how many musicians they inspired to to say, I I want to do that.
2:05 Speaker 02 Completely, that.
2:07 Billy Corgan? And you and your sister kind of had that moment.
2:09 Speaker 02 That was their, the same lightning bolt that hit the planet, you know, hit us as well as musicians.
2:16 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
2:17 Speaker 02 And we, we were like, we became the zombies for guitars, you know?
2:22 Billy Corgan? Were you already playing or did it was?
2:24 Speaker 02 Well, musical family.
2:26 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
2:26 Speaker 02 So kind of the Von Trapps in a lot of ways. We were all singing together in the car.
2:32 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
2:33 Speaker 02 And ukuleles and pianos and harmony.
2:37 Billy Corgan? So you're already in a musical mindset and then you see that and you think, okay, that sort of organizes where I want to go.
2:42 Speaker 02 Completely organized, you know, yeah, focused in our attentions on the rest of our lives, what we wanted to do. We're so lucky that way.
2:54 Billy Corgan? What was it about the guitar for you that, you know, because you know guitar players are a particular breed?
2:59 Speaker 02 Yeah, they're weird.
3:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah, because thank you. It's a kind of a nerdish thing that goes on.
3:04 Speaker 02 Pick on you?
3:04 Billy Corgan? What's that?
3:05 Speaker 02 Do you have a guitar pick on you?
3:06 Billy Corgan? Uh, I think I do, actually.
3:08 Speaker 02 I'll trade you.
3:09 Billy Corgan? Okay.
3:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, a steely for a pury.
3:11 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
3:12 Speaker 02 It's kind of like trading marbles.
3:14 Billy Corgan? What was it about the guitar that that spoke to you?
3:16 Speaker 02 Well, it's, um, I have a musical facility, I guess, as a, I'm just a musical person born into it.
3:27 Speaker 02 With parents, you know, that taught us harmony singing and piano lessons and flute and clarinet and. And so when the Beatles showed up, it was like, must have guitar and.
3:42 Speaker 02 I just took to it, you know, I just, I just, it absorbed me. It it still does.
3:49 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
3:51 Speaker 02 But when I was nine, it was like, I must, this is my purpose is to be, to learn how to play every Beatles song.
4:00 Billy Corgan? Wow.
4:02 Speaker 02 And every hit song that was on the top forty radio station. You know, the terrestrial radio station. And, um, you know, I learned how to read music a couple of times, but it never, I need, never needed it really. I just use your ears. When you have good ears, you have good ears.
4:21 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
4:21 Speaker 02 So you can imitate what you hear and approximate what you want to hear.
4:26 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
4:27 Speaker 02 But the guitar was, I got the worst guitar of all time. Was the first one, thirty dollar rental from the Bandstand Music Store down the street. And, uh, it was a Lyle.
4:42 Billy Corgan? I was gonna say, you remember the brand?
4:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
4:44 Billy Corgan? A Lyle, okay.
4:45 Speaker 02 It was like a three quarter size plywood guitar. With like a dowel neck.
4:50 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah.
4:52 Speaker 02 And the strings were about that far off the, the fretboard.
4:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
4:57 Speaker 02 So it was like, the, it was life without F, you know, you cannot, you can't play F.
5:03 Billy Corgan? There's a guitar player joke. I know exactly what you mean.
5:06 Speaker 02 No bar chords allowed.
5:07 Billy Corgan? I didn't play any Fs for like the first ten years of my life. It was like, this is too hard. Right, yeah.
5:12 Speaker 02 It's a true, truly is. But, um, but Anne got a good guitar from our grandma. Cause we were all interested in being like, not like the Beatles. We wanted to be the actual Beatles. You know, have a band.
5:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
5:27 Speaker 02 Be like the guys.
5:28 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
5:28 Speaker 02 Not, be the guys.
5:30 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah.
5:31 Speaker 02 Not like the guys or girlfriends of the guys would be them.
5:34 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
5:35 Speaker 02 And her guitar was playable, so I would sneak off with her guitar.
5:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
5:41 Speaker 02 And she'd get really pissed off at me.
5:44 Speaker 02 You took my guitar, give it back. Um, yeah, so, yeah.
5:49 Billy Corgan? It's, it's, it's striking that you were so young and, and both you kind of arrived at this.
5:53 Speaker 02 She had this facility for, her vocal facility, like God given or from the great spirit.
6:02 Billy Corgan? It is kind of frightening how.
6:03 Speaker 02 From the great, from, it came from above, you know.
6:06 Billy Corgan? But it is kind of frightening as somebody who sings and you sing, that it's, it sounds so easy for her.
6:12 Speaker 02 I know.
6:13 Billy Corgan? She hits like crazy notes and it's just like.
6:15 Speaker 02 She's just like pyrotechnically.
6:17 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
6:18 Speaker 02 Uh effortless.
6:19 Billy Corgan? Even if you listen to your first record, which we'll get to in a second, but it's it's she's already there. It's not like you don't hear somebody in development.
6:28 Speaker 02 No, no, it's just already, but you hear, well, I'm an expert on the topic.
6:34 Billy Corgan? Yes, please.
6:34 Speaker 02 But during during the course of our little, our little run here for fifty years, one time. You can hear the Elton John influence and her accent of singing on like.
6:47 Billy Corgan? Oh, interesting.
6:48 Speaker 02 She'd go like, you know, she'd have like that little country slang kind of vocal accent.
6:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah, right.
6:56 Speaker 02 And um.
6:57 Billy Corgan? I get that.
6:58 Speaker 02 And then of course, Robert Plant was massive influence, you know, on it, but not very slick, not. You know, the the females of the time, they were more R and B or psychedelia, very slick.
7:14 Billy Corgan? For like all great artists, it it it sounds like her no matter when it what it what it is, yeah?
7:21 Speaker 02 And she, she would have, my parents would be having a party downstairs. And it's like, come on down, girls, come on down and entertain the, you know, entertain the party.
7:32 Billy Corgan? Oh, okay.
7:33 Speaker 02 So they go, eh, do your Ethel Merman imitation, you know, and she'd sing Hawaiian wedding song like.
7:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
7:41 Speaker 02 Like.
7:41 Billy Corgan? With the big.
7:42 Speaker 02 Like, there's no business like showbiz. That was the Ethel Merman sound.
7:47 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
7:48 Speaker 02 That as a little kid, she was like able to belt, you know, and just entertain.
7:53 Billy Corgan? Well, Judy Garland had the same thing, you know, I think Judy Garland started on stage when she was four.
7:58 Speaker 02 Yeah.
7:59 Billy Corgan? And I think by the time she was six, she was appearing on, you know.
8:02 Speaker 02 Yeah.
8:02 Billy Corgan? Big, old school, two thousand seat theater.
8:05 Speaker 02 Born in a trunk.
8:07 Billy Corgan? But she she had that big voice, right?
8:09 Speaker 02 She just had that projecting, you know, but the um, but all of the kind of emotional uh.
8:17 Speaker 02 Muscle behind it too, you know.
8:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
8:20 Speaker 02 Cause Anne was kind of the ugly duckling. You know, the little fat chick with the braces. And so I think a lot of her pain was part of the muscle.
8:31 Billy Corgan? Ah, I see.
8:32 Speaker 02 That she put behind.
8:33 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
8:33 Speaker 02 Her vocalizing to prove the point. You know, that she was kind of lovable.
8:40 Billy Corgan? Hmm.
8:41 Speaker 02 And she proved it. She totally proved it.
8:45 Billy Corgan? Okay, so correct me if I'm wrong, because you know, you have to do your research. But the band Viewpoint?
8:51 Speaker 02 Yes.
8:52 Billy Corgan? You were in Viewpoint at some point.
8:54 Speaker 02 We were called The Viewpoints.
8:56 Billy Corgan? Okay, The Viewpoints.
8:57 Speaker 02 Yeah, the, because we were a little collective of four.
9:01 Billy Corgan? All fe- all fe- all female, right?
9:04 Speaker 02 All four girls. I was in junior high and they were in high school. And we were doing Bob Dylan protest music, right? So like four little white chicks from suburbia called The Viewpoints, you know.
9:18 Billy Corgan? Oh, yeah, okay.
9:19 Speaker 02 It's a very.
9:20 Billy Corgan? What a name now. Now I get it.
9:22 Speaker 02 Such rebels, you know, with our skirts and our jackets that matched the Beatles' uniforms, actually.
9:28 Billy Corgan? Mm hmm.
9:29 Speaker 02 Because our mom would sew us those, those uniforms to match the Beatles outfits. So, yeah, we were a little folk quartet called The Viewpoints. Um, singing about Vietnam and stuff like that from middle, middle class.
9:45 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
9:45 Speaker 02 Lower middle class suburbia.
9:47 Billy Corgan? So this would be like late sixties?
9:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, right after the Beatles.
9:51 Billy Corgan? Wow.
9:52 Speaker 02 Yeah.
9:52 Billy Corgan? Um.
9:54 Speaker 02 Right before the big summer of love and.
9:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I saw some indication where you also would play solo too, solo acoustic. Is that, is that?
10:02 Speaker 02 Yeah, um, I knew I was always going to be in Anne's band. Because of bands like The Viewpoints and the little Rapunzel we had a band was for a while. And then we were, uh, but she's being four years older than me. She got into bands that had drums and amps and stuff first. And they, she was able to play at places that served alcohol first.
10:26 Billy Corgan? I see.
10:27 Speaker 02 So I had to hang back for a couple of years and I decided, even though I knew I was going to join her band. Obviously, I went to university first to kind of declare my independence as an individual from being her little shadow for all those years. And so I'm real happy I did that because I read all about, you know, Dostoevsky and I got into Goethe and Nietzsche and all that stuff, all that college girl stuff. Wouldn't you love Todd Rundgren, stuff like that?
11:02 Billy Corgan? Okay.
11:04 Speaker 02 Every college girl must love Todd Rundgren.
11:06 Billy Corgan? Yes, a wizard and a true star is Todd Rundgren.
11:11 Speaker 02 Right.
11:13 Billy Corgan? I think that's interesting, though. So you had a sense of destiny with your sister. What was your relationship like then? I mean, because, you know, the focus always is on the relationship within the context of the band.
11:27 Speaker 02 Right.
11:27 Billy Corgan? Because that's where the most people go.
11:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
11:30 Billy Corgan? But what was your, like, if there wasn't a band, if there wasn't music, what was your relationship like then?
11:37 Speaker 02 That's an interesting question I've never been asked, you know, but because my own self-definition has been Anne's sidekick ever since I was born, basically. We have a third sister who's eight years older than me, and so I'm the youngest. But she, Anne, always was kind of like the initiator. She instigated, like, before we even had rock bands or the Beatles came along, she was like, well, let's make a play in the garage and, you know, like, charge for Kool-Aid and have the neighbors come over and have a little comedy show. And we did,
12:18 Speaker 02 our dad had a reel-to-reel Sony two-track, and we'd make little comedy records. And I still have those things for the documentary that's coming up. But, you know, it's really fun, clever stuff that young people are capable of.
12:35 Billy Corgan? Sure.
12:35 Speaker 02 When given the right tools.
12:37 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
12:37 Speaker 02 We had guitars and we had humor. We had a solid family life.
12:43 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
12:43 Speaker 02 With musical people, you know, that we, family that we came out of. And I think, I mean, even when I got real angsty and the hormone poisoning started to kick in, you know, when you're like 16 and 17, you know, and you get...
13:01 Speaker 02 You know, it was like, oh, God, my family's too happy. Like, I'm not cool enough because my family is tightened together. You know, because we're military.
13:12 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
13:13 Speaker 02 And so we stick together like a troop, you know, and pull the wagons in a circle of a little love circle in our family. Because we had to move and move and move and move and be the newcomers everywhere. And have our little musical tribe. And so I'd be like, really embarrassed that my parents were not divorced. You know, stuff like, I don't have anything to really.
13:38 Billy Corgan? Not enough trauma.
13:38 Speaker 02 Yeah, not enough trauma to like whine about, you know. So, uh, so we had a really solid family.
13:47 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
13:48 Speaker 02 For, for like being little productions and the joy of our parents like helping us out, making costumes and all that stuff.
13:57 Billy Corgan? I, I was gonna ask you, because you have these experiences of living in Taiwan and Panama or?
14:02 Speaker 02 Yeah, Panama.
14:02 Billy Corgan? It's not, not, not everyone's experience to kind of live internationally very young.
14:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, well, I was born into, I, I came after Panama. But they'd lived in the Carolinas and, um, and Taiwan when I was really a kid, like two.
14:20 Billy Corgan? Do you have any memory of those times?
14:22 Speaker 02 A lot of home movies that jog your memory, I think.
14:26 Billy Corgan? Sure, yeah.
14:27 Speaker 02 I think I do remember a few things, yeah, pretty well, actually. A lot of Sense memory and the water buffalo and, you know, the, uh, there was a compound, a walled in, uh, safe compound where the military families were living, where there was, there was shooting outside the walls and stuff like that.
14:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
14:49 Speaker 02 And, um, you know, there, there was a hired staff inside of our compound to help us cook and the nanny and, um, but, uh, you know, it was, there was typhoid and there was all kinds of, you know, uh, all kinds of tropical, um.
15:11 Speaker 02 Sudden downpours and, and just a really rich sense of memory of being a little kid in all that humidity and turmoil and stuff.
15:25 Billy Corgan? Color and smell.
15:26 Speaker 02 Yeah.
15:28 Billy Corgan? I know. So your father was a Marine?
15:30 Speaker 02 Yeah, he retired as a, as a major.
15:34 Billy Corgan? And your grandfather Brigadier General?
15:37 Speaker 02 And then his dad retired as a four-star Brigadier General.
15:41 Billy Corgan? That's crazy.
15:42 Speaker 02 John Bushrod Wilson, senior.
15:45 Billy Corgan? Isn't there a military base named after your grandfather?
15:48 Speaker 02 I don't know.
15:49 Billy Corgan? I read that somewhere.
15:50 Speaker 02 Really?
15:50 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
15:51 Speaker 02 Well, if, if AI says it, then I'm gonna believe that.
15:54 Billy Corgan? I don't know. I mean.
15:56 Speaker 02 Some things.
15:57 Billy Corgan? I read stuff all the time that's not correct, but I thought, I thought that's an interesting detail. They said it, it was, it was, it was connected to 29 Bunch Palms out, out there.
16:07 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, there is. There is. You're right. We got a little flag memento that they gave us.
16:16 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
16:16 Speaker 02 Out there. That's why.
16:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
16:19 Speaker 02 And yeah, when my dad actually passed on, the, the, um, the color guard came out to the house and did the salute and all of that in the proper way. But, um, yeah, my granddad, my uncle, my dad, a lot of military, a lot of Marines.
16:39 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
16:39 Speaker 02 Um, in the family and, and from my mom's side, the World War One military, a lot of,
16:46 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
16:48 Speaker 02 a lot of fighters, you know, a lot of warriors in my family.
16:52 Billy Corgan? So was there any, as you're moving into music in this intense countercultural time, kind of like what we have now?
16:59 Speaker 02 Yeah, no kidding.
17:00 Billy Corgan? You're coming from a traditional military background and, and yet you're, you're also in step with your generation. You're singing protest songs. Was there any, was there any consternation on your, in your parents' part that you're gonna misrepresent something or was that, was that at play at all?
17:17 Speaker 02 Well, you know, it was really amazing what, how my parents evolved through the late 60s where Vietnam got more like a dirty war. My dad had just retired and become an English teacher because he had a sense of, of higher learning and poetry that he wanted to pursue. After all the. The horror that he'd seen in World War II. And so he became kind of a peaceful, he was enjoying his peacetime that he fought for, right?
17:51 Billy Corgan? I see.
17:52 Speaker 02 And Anne then fell in love with the magic man who was a drafty Vader.
17:59 Billy Corgan? This is, this is Michael.
18:01 Speaker 02 Michael Fisher.
18:01 Billy Corgan? Thank you, yes.
18:03 Speaker 02 The brother of the guitar player that, you know, that I unwisely walked into a relationship with. And but anyway.
18:12 Billy Corgan? Never dated guitar player.
18:14 Speaker 02 Never dated or a drummer or a bass player.
18:17 Billy Corgan? You definitely don't want to date a drummer.
18:19 Speaker 02 Don't date a drummer, no. Yeah, but do not lie down with drummers.
18:23 Billy Corgan? Yes.
18:24 Speaker 02 As they say. So my dad was enlightened enough at the time and disagreed enough about the Vietnam War, how that was being handled and not, they called it a military action instead of a war.
18:40 Billy Corgan? Was that something he talked openly about?
18:41 Speaker 02 Yeah, oh yeah. And he would, he stopped recruiting for the Marines because of Vietnam.
18:48 Billy Corgan? Wow.
18:49 Speaker 02 And he then became an English teacher instead. And so when Anne moved up to Vancouver from Seattle, where we lived, you know, hitchhiking with a backpack and a guitar, basically. In the day when you could trust an unknown driver, maybe. He was okay with it. He said, you know, you tell that young man that I, I wouldn't fight that dirty war either.
19:23 Billy Corgan? Oh, I see.
19:24 Speaker 02 You know, so he agreed with, you know, being a, basically, he was a conscientious objector about the way that war was being handled. War.
19:36 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
19:36 Speaker 02 Yeah.
19:37 Billy Corgan? So. It it it it's a little unclear. There was a band Hocus Pocus or it was White Hart.
19:43 Speaker 02 Yeah, so.
19:43 Billy Corgan? So she's kind of.
19:44 Speaker 02 After the viewpoints in Rapunzel.
19:47 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
19:47 Speaker 02 Then Anne launched into garages that had drums and amps and stuff before I could go play those clubs with her.
19:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
19:57 Speaker 02 So she had A Boy and His Dog, she had Daybreak, she had the one you just said.
20:06 Billy Corgan? It was Hocus Pocus.
20:08 Speaker 02 Hocus Pocus.
20:08 Billy Corgan? White Hart.
20:09 Speaker 02 And White Hart, which then became Hart.
20:12 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
20:13 Speaker 02 About the same minute that I joined Hart.
20:16 Billy Corgan? Okay, I gotta stop here. This is to me, one of the funniest stories of your life. So they weren't sure about you joining, so they made you learn the Yes song, the clap?
20:26 Speaker 02 Yeah.
20:26 Billy Corgan? You gotta be a Yes fan to know what that is, but like when I read that, I thought this is so crazy.
20:30 Speaker 02 You know, you know that song.
20:31 Billy Corgan? Of course, yeah. This is kind of Steve How's kind of show offy.
20:35 Speaker 02 It's a real show offy ragtime acoustic finger style.
20:40 Billy Corgan? Play the clap with Asia in 1981.
20:43 Speaker 02 You did?
20:43 Billy Corgan? Yes, yeah.
20:44 Speaker 02 Wow.
20:45 Billy Corgan? Of course, the crowd went crazy, you know, because he's playing the clap.
20:49 Speaker 02 Well, you know, I could still play most of the clap, but um.
20:53 Billy Corgan? I see, it's just why I reach for a guitar and.
20:55 Speaker 02 Yeah, like here.
20:56 Billy Corgan? Here you go.
20:56 Speaker 02 Well, I need a little practice, a little warm up first, but.
20:59 Billy Corgan? But that's the I I could never play. Sorry, but I could never, I could never play that. That's a pretty impressive thing to sort of show up and play.
21:08 Speaker 02 Thanks. Well, you know, I already was really proficient.
21:13 Speaker 02 Because like guys like Paul Simon.
21:17 Speaker 02 You know, all that great finger style.
21:19 Billy Corgan? Yeah, you learned all those.
21:20 Speaker 02 I learned all that stuff right off the bat because that was.
21:23 Billy Corgan? Country, country blues too, or just more of the folky?
21:26 Speaker 02 All of the above, like all country music, you know, pretty much everything except jazz, I guess.
21:32 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
21:33 Speaker 02 Because jazz is more like a reading music type of playing.
21:37 Billy Corgan? But did you see them kind of? Okay, jump over this wall. Let's see if you can jump to.
21:42 Speaker 02 Yeah.
21:42 Billy Corgan? Was it, was it, was it, was it because you were the sister? Is it because you were female? Or all of the above? Or, or are they just like you're an outsider? What was the?
21:50 Speaker 02 I think it was because I was the little sister.
21:52 Billy Corgan? Hmm.
21:53 Speaker 02 And the nepotistic aspect of, you know, just because she's your sister doesn't mean she's good enough to go play cabarets in Vancouver with us, the number one cabaret band in Vancouver. It called, they just changed their name to Heart.
22:10 Billy Corgan? They were good musicians. I will.
22:12 Speaker 02 They were really good.
22:13 Billy Corgan? I mean, they, they, they come off, there's a serious vibe to their, to their thing.
22:17 Speaker 02 We were, they were seriously good club band. Really good.
22:21 Billy Corgan? But back then you had to be. My, my father was a club musician too. You probably don't know that.
22:24 Speaker 02 Really? Yeah.
22:25 Billy Corgan? So I grew up in that world where it's like you had to be able to play.
22:28 Speaker 02 And you played a lot, long sets. You played like almost an hour, a break, almost another hour. Another break, almost another hour, a break, and then the last short set.
22:41 Billy Corgan? Yeah, my dad used to say five.
22:42 Speaker 02 And then kick every, all the drunk people out.
22:44 Billy Corgan? Five forty-five minute sets is what he would do.
22:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, five forty-five minute sets. That's what I.
22:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah. So imagine, but, but.
22:49 Speaker 02 That was my initiation.
22:50 Billy Corgan? The upside is when these bands, like your band, broke into the world, they, they know how to play. They know how to speak to an audience.
22:56 Speaker 02 Right. It's the experience of, it's the live experience that I think a lot of people are missing out now. I mean, one of the reasons in our social media, you know, infused world right now is people don't have that experience. That record companies used to help, you know, develop their artists and
23:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
23:19 Speaker 02 make their, uh, I'll, I'll pay, I'll pay for rent if you go on the road and learn your craft, you know? We'll subsidize you.
23:28 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
23:28 Speaker 02 To go learn the, the live craft of playing live music and sounding as cool as your recording sounded.
23:35 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
23:36 Speaker 02 That kind of stuff.
23:37 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
23:37 Speaker 02 That's why I have a management company now, helping. Young artists do that, but.
23:42 Billy Corgan? Oh, okay, that's interesting.
23:43 Speaker 02 It's another conversation.
23:43 Billy Corgan? Do you want to talk about that at all?
23:45 Speaker 02 Well, I will. I mean, happily.
23:47 Billy Corgan? I don't mind derailing it for a second.
23:49 Speaker 02 Do you? Okay, let me be derailed.
23:51 Billy Corgan? Yeah, please.
23:52 Speaker 02 Let me derail myself. I have a little company called Roadcase Productions or Roadcase Management, and we've got a graphic artist named Sketchy Goat.
24:08 Speaker 02 From, she's from Texas, but she does a lot of the Seattle musicians like Jerry Cantrell. And she does Weird Al, and she does Nancy Wilson, and she does, yeah, she's done a heart T-shirt for us. And you, obviously, worked with Sketchy Goat.
24:25 Billy Corgan? Did I?
24:25 Speaker 02 You did.
24:26 Billy Corgan? I don't remember that.
24:27 Speaker 02 She made you some, I think it was really cool posters and stuff, but she works with you.
24:31 Billy Corgan? Okay.
24:32 Speaker 02 But anyway, now she has management.
24:35 Billy Corgan? Oh, okay.
24:36 Speaker 02 Yeah, so that's part of that. And then, but for the music side, right now, I have Deloitte LZ, who's got an album, Ride of Passage, this amazing, it's digital twang. It's very country, very Americana with digital interference, sort of cool stuff. And another developing girl, who's an amazing singer songwriter too, Madison XOXO.
25:06 Billy Corgan? Okay.
25:06 Speaker 02 And I'm getting her, trying to help get her out on the road and get her album out soon. But Deloitte LZ just got signed with Concord Records.
25:17 Billy Corgan? Oh, wow.
25:17 Speaker 02 And he's touring now, too.
25:19 Billy Corgan? Wow. So you're taking more of a development position, helping and seeding?
25:24 Speaker 02 Yeah, helping develop young, talented singer songwriters.
25:28 Billy Corgan? Wow, okay.
25:28 Speaker 02 And a graphic artist.
25:29 Billy Corgan? I didn't know that. That's cool.
25:30 Speaker 02 Yeah, so I got to derail myself and do, you know, shameless promotion.
25:35 Billy Corgan? But it kind of, it dovetails in it, because this is the point in your life where it's like, here comes the management, the record label, you know, this, this that moment.
25:44 Speaker 02 Giving something back to like, the great spirit of art, you know what I mean? Like. That's been my, um.
25:50 Billy Corgan? Well, we, we both know that, you know, record companies don't do A and R anymore. There's no.
25:55 Speaker 02 Right. That's kind of.
25:56 Billy Corgan? No talent development. I mean, you, you ended it, but I'm talking about the actual reality. They, they don't even have a department. There's nobody. They just.
26:02 Speaker 02 There's no artist relation department. Yeah. A and R.
26:05 Billy Corgan? It's strictly, you have to figure out how to get yourself over on social media. If you get enough numbers, they might sign you.
26:11 Speaker 02 Yeah. And we're, you know, radio's not helping. I mean, programming.
26:16 Billy Corgan? Well, TikTok, TikTok probably right now is probably the, the greatest driver for young people to find music.
26:21 Speaker 02 Exactly. Exactly.
26:22 Billy Corgan? But Jimmy Chamberlain from the Pumpkins was telling me recently that they did a study and found that there's actually not a ton of conversion from people liking stuff on TikTok to actually going and listening to it on a streaming platform.
26:34 Speaker 02 Right? Yeah.
26:35 Billy Corgan? So, so they'll.
26:36 Speaker 02 When I go through my Instagram, I, I'll buy albums.
26:39 Billy Corgan? Me too.
26:39 Speaker 02 That I hear about.
26:40 Billy Corgan? But isn't it interesting that if TikTok is the greatest sort of marketing tool for young artists to reach people?
26:45 Speaker 02 Yeah.
26:46 Billy Corgan? There isn't necessarily a conversion to get those people to go listen to those people on streaming services. They'll listen to them on TikTok.
26:52 Speaker 02 Yeah. So they'll just watch what they like on TikTok some more.
26:55 Billy Corgan? It become, yeah, yeah.
26:57 Speaker 02 Instead of like, go, I want to see them live or I want to go.
27:00 Billy Corgan? I don't remember this artist's name, but I, I heard this thing the other day where an artist will put up a 30 second clip of a song. He'll only record 30 seconds of a song. And if people like it and he gets enough traction, he'll go and record the song.
27:15 Speaker 02 Wow.
27:16 Billy Corgan? Yeah, that blew my mind.
27:16 Speaker 02 Attention span theater.
27:18 Billy Corgan? I don't know. That, but, but that blew my mind because it's unfathomable to me, at least in the world we grew up in, that you would, you would ask the audience to tell you who to be. Of course, the artist would say, well, I'm being, I'm being who I want. No, you're, you're asking the audience to tell you which version of yourself to be.
27:33 Speaker 02 That's right. That's what that is.
27:34 Billy Corgan? That's kind of weird because.
27:35 Speaker 02 It's like, here's a, um, here's a color swatch. What color do you want?
27:41 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
27:41 Speaker 02 This room to me to paint your room, you know?
27:44 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
27:44 Speaker 02 Yeah. That's wild. That's really wild. I've never heard that.
27:47 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Mike Flicker, Mushroom Records, kind of take me through that.
27:51 Speaker 02 Yeah.
27:52 Billy Corgan? Okay. So wait, I saw this and tell me if this is true. So were they in the paint business or something?
27:58 Speaker 02 Right.
27:58 Billy Corgan? Somebody was in the paint business and they had a little label and a studio.
28:00 Speaker 02 They had a little studio down by the river.
28:05 Billy Corgan? Exactly. Down by the river.
28:06 Speaker 02 Sounds like a song.
28:07 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
28:07 Speaker 02 Um, oh, it is one. Um. But down by the river in Vancouver, that a paint company family had as kind of like a vanity side project thing like, oh, we could make a, I don't know, we could, you know, record some local artists and make singles and stamp out some, you know, vinyls and see what happens.
28:32 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
28:32 Speaker 02 And so they were making, Mike Flicker at the time with Howard Lees, were little production team there making Switched On Bach records and stuff like that. So electronic, musical, instrumental stuff like that. Switched on Beatles, you know, which was a big rage at the minute.
28:54 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I have all those records. I know exactly.
28:56 Speaker 02 You have them on vinyl?
28:57 Billy Corgan? I love, I love all that stuff.
28:58 Speaker 02 All the vinyl stuff?
29:00 Billy Corgan? I did, no, I just, I don't, I, there's that moment where because of, because of the success of Wendy Carlos, there's all those weird like.
29:07 Speaker 02 You have Edgar Varcey.
29:09 Billy Corgan? I don't know who that is.
29:10 Speaker 02 The electronic strange.
29:12 Billy Corgan? Are you talking about, is it Veraci or?
29:15 Speaker 02 Yes.
29:15 Billy Corgan? Okay, I don't know how to say the name, but yeah. Wasn't Zappa obsessed with him?
29:20 Speaker 02 Yes, I think so. Yeah.
29:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah, he would, he would write like two symphonies and have two orchestras play them at the same time and. Yeah.
29:29 Speaker 02 Yeah, and all the experimental electronic stuff.
29:32 Billy Corgan? Yeah, but I love the conversion of classical to electronic.
29:35 Speaker 02 Me too.
29:36 Billy Corgan? And even like synthesizer Beatle records where like they take like Eleanor Rigby and do like.
29:41 Speaker 02 That's what, that's exactly, that's what Mike Flicker and Howard Lees were up to.
29:45 Billy Corgan? Okay, so they were doing all that.
29:46 Speaker 02 That's what they were doing.
29:47 Billy Corgan? Yeah. And here come, here come you lasses.
29:49 Speaker 02 And here comes, you know, Heart, now called Heart, into the club scene there at, you know, at the, what was it called? The Aquarius Room or something? At the, I forget the name, the big, the big showplace cabaret that had the small room downstairs and the other room over there and the big showroom upstairs where all of the Revue type bands and all the, you know, all the African American Revue with Horn Part bands would come out.
30:20 Billy Corgan? Okay.
30:20 Speaker 02 Big, big, you know, touring bands.
30:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
30:24 Speaker 02 And Heart got gigs at, Oil Can Harry's is where, what it was called and.
30:32 Speaker 02 And so one of my first gigs was playing at Oil Can Harry's with Heart. And I'd only been in coffee shops, like one little acoustic chick, you know, with like doing, you know, I don't know, Jethro Tull and, you know, this stuff.
30:48 Billy Corgan? What Jethro Tull song were you playing?
30:50 Speaker 02 I did Locomotive Brad.
30:51 Billy Corgan? Okay.
30:52 Speaker 02 I love that song.
30:53 Billy Corgan? It's a good song.
30:54 Speaker 02 It's a really good song. I didn't do Aquiline though. It's a little graphic for me, but anyway. So it was the Trial by Fire and Mike Fish, Mike Flicker happened to come and see Heart play at Oil Can Harry's.
31:11 Billy Corgan? And that was it?
31:12 Speaker 02 And heard Anne's voice. And that was it.
31:14 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
31:15 Speaker 02 And I was joining soon thereafter, after I did my stint in university, you know, just for my own, you know, edification. And so when I joined, he was like, I think just the Anne, the Anne version of this band is better than the two chick version of this band. And so let's like, let's have some opinions about how they sound together. And so my addition into the band was really scrutin, heavily scrutinized. And I had to kind of, um,
31:51 Billy Corgan? That's so crazy to me.
31:51 Speaker 02 Put the gloves on a little bit.
31:53 Billy Corgan? That's so crazy to me.
31:54 Speaker 02 I'm good enough for this.
31:55 Billy Corgan? And you would have been how old at the time, like 19 or something?
31:57 Speaker 02 19.
31:58 Billy Corgan? Yeah. That's crazy to me.
31:59 Speaker 02 But I was good, you know, and I could pull a, Anne used to call it like, do the cow show, like, like at a, like at a county fair.
32:11 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
32:11 Speaker 02 Like the cow that could dance, you know, like, so I'd play Angie by Paul Simon, you know, like some really complicated.
32:19 Billy Corgan? Oh, I see. You know. Prove your.
32:21 Speaker 02 Prove my guitar prowess.
32:24 Billy Corgan? But is it?
32:24 Speaker 02 And harmony singing and stuff.
32:26 Billy Corgan? But I mean, to me, that's just so crazy that you would want a sibling out of a group, especially when you talk about singing.
32:32 Speaker 02 Oh, I know. Well, I had to just prove it real hard.
32:35 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
32:35 Speaker 02 And.
32:35 Billy Corgan? But what, did Anne stick up for you or what was her position? Is she kind of in the?
32:40 Speaker 02 Well, she, she really stuck up for me.
32:44 Speaker 02 You know, which once in a while she will do and not as often as I would like. But uh, she said, no, I'm not going to do this without my sister. Which was amazing. It was amazing. And so I was in. You know, come hell or high water and it all came.
33:03 Billy Corgan? I went back and listened to the, to the early records because I think it helps sometimes because you, as a fan, you think you know what the records sound like? Or because of the hits, but I actually went back and listened. But then when you go back and you listen, I go, I didn't remember some of this folky stuff you guys were doing. There was, there was like, it was like more prog elements in there.
33:22 Speaker 02 There were some prog moments and there was almost like a, a um, you know, carpenter's song on there.
33:29 Billy Corgan? I'm so glad you said that because I didn't know if you would, because.
33:32 Speaker 02 What was it called? Love Me Like Music.
33:35 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Cause there is a kind of a carpenter's-esque quality to your sister's voice. And I actually heard it listening to that record, the first, especially the first one. And I thought, wow, they're weird. They're like, there's like part carpenter, part Led Zeppelin. It's kind of a weird.
33:48 Speaker 02 And a little bit of Elton John. Like when she goes, wow. You know, she got the Elton John accent for a second. A little Karen Carpenter over there. A lot of Robert Plant everywhere else.
34:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
34:02 Speaker 02 But um, but she really, but still sounds like herself because that's what great singers.
34:07 Billy Corgan? It's crazy.
34:08 Speaker 02 You can always uh, you know, identify a voice.
34:14 Billy Corgan? Soon as she opens her mouth, it's like.
34:15 Speaker 02 Like a Chris Cornell. And your voice too. I mean, it's very identifiable as you. Only you have your sound and which is really cool.
34:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah. It's a weird, it's a weird, speaking personally, I, it's a weird thing because I wanted to sing like other people. You know what I mean? I just didn't have the ability.
34:34 Speaker 02 I always, I've never been a born singer. So I'm really put here for guitar playing mainly, I guess. But I love singing and I love harmonizing. And so. You know, lead singing is a challenge, but I I enjoy the the effort, you know, that it takes to do it.
34:51 Billy Corgan? But just take us into the kind of like, I did you guys sit around and talk about this is what we want to sound like, or did it just kind of happen through work is is was there was there an intellectual overlay on that was it was the just the musical output? It's a weird to me as a as a music fan, and again, I'm a fan, so. But it's a weird stew of influences, and I even found this weird clip of you guys. It must have been right around the first album, but you're playing. I don't want to say it's cable access, but it kind of feels like a local TV show.
35:19 Speaker 02 That was in Spokane, Washington.
35:20 Billy Corgan? OK, right, and and at some point, you even say that we're from around here. And
35:24 Speaker 02 Yeah.
35:24 Billy Corgan? You opened with some kind of weird prog intro with synthesizers and Anne's playing the flute. I remember she kind of remember like she's playing like Jethro Tull flute solos. And I was like, wow, this is really out there.
35:36 Speaker 02 Exactly, exactly as you described it. It is every like influential element that were put together in the rich protein stew called Heart.
35:46 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
35:47 Speaker 02 Starting out.
35:47 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
35:48 Speaker 02 And that we had a reel to reel
35:53 Speaker 02 tape recorder that we we would push play at the beginning of our all of our cabaret shows. And that show that you saw from Spokane, you the university there. And it was like a public access.
36:05 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
36:06 Speaker 02 Thing with. And it was called Main Stage, and it was a it was an edited together little
36:15 Speaker 02 introduction, the sound of a of a rocket launch, a countdown.
36:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
36:21 Speaker 02 To a rocket launch. And then the band starts.
36:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
36:24 Speaker 02 So with then the flute part comes in and and it's this big, long, you know, like in the seventies.
36:31 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
36:31 Speaker 02 In the middle to late seventies, there was such a an epic thing going on with Zeppelin and songs that and Rush and songs that would go on to all these departures.
36:42 Billy Corgan? Chicago, we had Sticks was doing stuff like that, too.
36:45 Speaker 02 Do that, of course, you know, it would be the epic, you know.
36:49 Billy Corgan? Boston, you know, these kind of.
36:50 Speaker 02 Boston would go off on departures. The Baroque departures and the long solo over here and then back to the other part. And so songs could go for well, Mr. All Wind was one of those songs that Heart did, which is still my favorite song, maybe, but.
37:05 Billy Corgan? I have to go listen to that.
37:06 Speaker 02 It's like seven minutes, you know. But it's a big journey that you go through and.
37:13 Speaker 02 But it was the times where you would, you know, you're just, you're really just kind of tributing everybody that you love.
37:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
37:25 Speaker 02 When you're trying to write new stuff.
37:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
37:28 Speaker 02 And I think you just nailed it. You just said, it sounds a little bit like Jethro Tull. It sounds a little bit like that one over here, the accent over here, the Zeppelin-ish thing there. But it was not, it was not, it was not constructed that way on per thought, like the thought.
37:48 Billy Corgan? That's what I was asking, yeah.
37:50 Speaker 02 The thought construct on it was pretty much off the cuff and on the spot.
37:55 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
37:56 Speaker 02 As it happened.
37:56 Billy Corgan? Um, so I know you said you kind of had a fight for your spot, but like what in the early stage? Cause I think this has a lot to do with what follows. Like what was the balance of power in the, in the group? Like who's making the decisions? Was it a democracy? Like, how did that work?
38:12 Speaker 02 That's a really, that's a tough question because it's always been, um, there's always been a balancing act between, we wanted to feel like a family, a democracy with everyone's vote. And it just sort of never worked very well that way, to be quite honest with you.
38:36 Billy Corgan? I'm laughing because I've lived this movie.
38:38 Speaker 02 You've, you've seen that movie too. I've seen that movie too. But we still kept, always still, still now, even now, do try to keep
38:51 Billy Corgan? Ah, okay.
38:51 Speaker 02 The democratic vibe in the band, though Anne and I equally are partners, half and half partners
39:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
39:01 Speaker 02 Of the corporation called Heart.
39:03 Billy Corgan? Sure.
39:04 Speaker 02 You know.
39:04 Billy Corgan? But I always think it's interesting to look at these things because we have the we have the luxury of hindsight of seeing all the success, right? But in the beginning, you know, you know, you're you're just basically a club band.
39:16 Speaker 02 Yeah.
39:17 Billy Corgan? You know.
39:17 Speaker 02 A touring.
39:18 Billy Corgan? It looks so it looks so obvious in hindsight, right? But but but at the time, you know, there's insecurity, there's I've got to get my guitar solo in.
39:26 Speaker 02 And there's egos.
39:27 Billy Corgan? Oh, please.
39:28 Speaker 02 Like, turn me up louder, you know?
39:31 Billy Corgan? The the, you know, remember when you'd mix on an analog board, everyone would just keep.
39:35 Speaker 02 Just pushing themselves up.
39:37 Billy Corgan? Fader stuff to make sure they were they were gonna get hurt.
39:39 Speaker 02 We totally, I've seen that movie.
39:42 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
39:42 Speaker 02 A few times over.
39:43 Billy Corgan? So we don't have to get too into because it's a it's a it's a somewhat explored history in your life, but.
39:48 Speaker 02 Yeah.
39:49 Billy Corgan? You're on this label Mushroom.
39:50 Speaker 02 Yes.
39:51 Billy Corgan? From the Paint people.
39:52 Speaker 02 Yes.
39:52 Billy Corgan? And then the record comes out and it it, you know, like it happened in seventy five, but in those days, records didn't sort of like light on fire necessarily right away. It took time.
40:04 Speaker 02 Yeah, we we we region by region, it was sort of spread out. And we got in a in a rent a car with an agent guy and went to radio stations, me and Anne, and schmoozed the program director with our cute tops on, you know? And kind of fluffed up and.
40:25 Billy Corgan? Did you sorry, because because I was gonna get there, but I I'm gonna ask because two things. One is, you know, are you having to sort of deal with because in my mind, and and this is my memory from the time because I was listening then, it the you always came across as a credible band that that you're being attractive and female wasn't necessarily a negative, but but the band was a band because it was a good music band.
40:53 Speaker 02 Yes.
40:53 Billy Corgan? So on one hand, you're over here like you're dealing with this kind of, you know, I mean, it's still sexist, but I mean, it was probably ten times worse back then. But so you're dealing with like, how do we present ourselves as credible? But we have to get attention. On the other hand, is the band, the guys in the band, are they are they almost trying to prove something because they're fronted by two women? Is is does that make sense, that question?
41:16 Speaker 02 That's a great question. It's very relevant and it's very a tricky.
41:22 Speaker 02 Eggshell walk to do emotionally when your friends and in my case, I was with one of the, I was with the guitar player unwisely in the band then. And so, and the other guys in the band, you know, we knew their wives and their girlfriends, but we would see them with the groupies and not tell the wives or the girlfriends about the groupies. And so there was a brother sisterhood where, you know, um, what's, you know, what's happens in the band stays in the band. And we honored, we respected their privacy on those issues and didn't tell the wives about the girls.
42:02 Billy Corgan? But then the wife is mad at you.
42:04 Speaker 02 The wife gets mad for not, you know, and so there's all kinds of drama that you can only imagine
42:09 Billy Corgan? Yes.
42:10 Speaker 02 half of that was always going on. Not to mention the fact that the attention just naturally would fall on me and Anne together as a focal focus point. So the, the album cover where it wasn't democratic with the whole band on the front cover where the guys were on the back cover of Baby Lestrange and just me and Anne, the big black and white of close up of me and Anne on the front cover really pissed them off.
42:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
42:41 Speaker 02 And it was the back of our heads with our hair and their pictures were inserted on top of the back of our, in our hair. So it's like, so we were just the out of focus guys in the background in your hair. And so that we always had to deal with.
42:58 Billy Corgan? I'm, I'm going to ask you something to opine on because, because it's something I think that's, it's, it's something that most people, if they don't play in bands, especially successful bands, wouldn't understand, but I'm curious for your take on it. I found that. In a weird kind of way, the public chooses your journey. Once you figure out who you are and what you are.
43:18 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:18 Billy Corgan? The public kind of chooses your journey. Like in hindsight, because you, let's call it Heart 1.0. Very credible band.
43:26 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:27 Billy Corgan? Really good band. I mean, great drummer, great guitar parts. I mean, very credible band. Truly, like, I say that without reservation. That's a great band.
43:37 Speaker 02 Right.
43:37 Billy Corgan? Alice Cooper's original band, great band.
43:41 Speaker 02 Right.
43:41 Billy Corgan? Like, all those guys, great band. But at the end of the day, in hindsight, we can see that in the case of the sisters, it was ultimately gonna be about you two.
43:51 Speaker 02 Right.
43:51 Billy Corgan? Right? It's not a slight against the band. It's just the public chooses the story that they want. And it became about you. That's what I remember. It was about you two.
44:01 Speaker 02 That's right.
44:02 Billy Corgan? It doesn't mean I didn't like the band. I just saw it was about you in my mind. Maybe it was the album covers, who knows? But it was the same thing with Alice Cooper, right? You know, at some point, it's like, it was about the band. They were a great band. But at some point, it becomes about Alice Cooper. And 50 years later, literally, we're still talking about you and your sister.
44:21 Speaker 02 That's true.
44:22 Billy Corgan? And the public knows your names. And it's no disrespect that they don't necessarily know their names. I might know their names because I'm a nerd, but what I'm saying is, but the reason I'm asking this, and this is where I'm asking for your.
44:34 Speaker 02 Another great question.
44:36 Billy Corgan? Thank you. But the reason I'm asking for insight, because it's a particular spot that people like us occasionally find ourselves in where the band is, or your fellow members, they're mad at you for what the public is interested in. And you're in this weird position where you're like, I kind of get it.
44:53 Speaker 02 Yeah.
44:53 Billy Corgan? But at the same point, I'm not the one choosing this narrative. The public is choosing this narrative.
44:58 Speaker 02 Well, yeah, you know, it's an interesting.
45:03 Speaker 02 Well, again, it's a walking on eggshells type of a democratic internal struggle that you can have with people you love, that you play good music with, that you feel tight with. Well, they're like, they really are a family. It is really a family, and it's your camaraderie, and it's your little, you know, platoon that survive together. And but what the public perception wants to focus on is something as simple as you at the center of it, or me and my sister at the center of heart. You have to kind of relinquish the idea of
45:48 Speaker 02 complete democracy in many ways, because you are the songwriter. You wrote the lyrics, right? Yeah. You wrote those songs. That was your soul coming through that speaker that put your own melancholy into the world. Yeah. And that's what me and Anne were the songwriters. And we brought the guys in their jams, cool jams, and made them songwriters with us. But they never wrote the words either, you know what I mean? Or the melodies. Or the melodies and words, or the actual expressiveness that carries the message into the world, where it touches people.
46:31 Speaker 02 And the guy and his girl proposes to the lady, his form, his soup. He proposes at the prom when he's hearing Dog and Butterfly, for instance. And so that moment is caught in the music. Yeah. Into the...
46:55 Speaker 02 You know, the great collective consciousness of where music actually sits in people's souls.
47:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
47:01 Speaker 02 And that's me and my sister. So every band member, first we had the, made the mistake of being their girlfriends. And then there was a lot of different lineups after that, you know, after the first lineup.
47:17 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
47:18 Speaker 02 But this lineup today, for instance, is, is the best lineup ever. A lot of these Nashville cats and some Seattle guys are in it and they get it. And, you know, they're, they're more like studio guys. They're like having the blast of their ever, the, the, the most fun on big stages now.
47:38 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
47:39 Speaker 02 So there's this beautiful freshness and democracy that's totally different from any other lineup that ever happened. But still the focus remains on, at the center when people say, you know, oh, when you sing together, you know, when the sisters sing together, there's this thing that happens. And we can't avoid that or try to pretend.
48:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
48:01 Speaker 02 It's just a democracy, you know.
48:03 Billy Corgan? Yeah. If you think about it, cause you and your sister singing together, the Beach Boys.
48:09 Speaker 02 Yeah.
48:10 Billy Corgan? Everly Brothers, Bee Gees.
48:12 Speaker 02 Blood Harmony.
48:14 Billy Corgan? That's what I was after. Yeah. There's something magical about when siblings can put their voices together. It's, it's a God given kind of spookiness.
48:21 Speaker 02 It is kind of spooky.
48:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
48:23 Speaker 02 Yeah. Cause people go, when I, I talk on the phone, people say, God, you sound exactly like your sister. When you speak and I go, I just wish I sounded like her when I sang too. Because, you know, she had that, she has that one gift, but I guess my gift is the counterpart, you know, is the accompaniment.
48:43 Billy Corgan? Yeah, but that's, that's the magic, right?
48:45 Speaker 02 Yeah, that makes magic happen.
48:47 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
48:48 Speaker 02 For sure.
48:48 Billy Corgan? I found myself in going back, listening to all the records, trying to pick your harmony out because, you know, you tend to focus on the lead singer harmony, but I was trying to pick out what you were doing.
48:56 Speaker 02 Oh, that's so good.
48:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
48:58 Speaker 02 Yeah. I love that weird harmonies.
49:00 Billy Corgan? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Almost Gaelic. A lot of Gaelic harmonies.
49:04 Speaker 02 A lot of Gaelic.
49:05 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
49:05 Speaker 02 A lot of more of that stuff, for sure.
49:07 Billy Corgan? So you're catching traction, you're opening for Led Zeppelin. I mean, stuff is happening, but you get in this, this squabble with Mushroom Records because you, you guys want to get the hell out of there. They're just this little label.
49:21 Speaker 02 Well, our, our album called Magazine that we were planning to do.
49:26 Billy Corgan? They just threw the tapes out, basically, right?
49:28 Speaker 02 They, they got some lives, they, they just decided to release it before it was ready, against our will.
49:36 Billy Corgan? And people wonder why record companies get a bad reputation.
49:39 Speaker 02 So they put a live version of, "I got the music in me," you know.
49:43 Billy Corgan? What a weird one that is.
49:44 Speaker 02 K-P-D song and, and Mother Earth Blues, I guess it was, and I played blues harpsolo and it was, we didn't want to release those songs. Those were club songs.
49:55 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah.
49:56 Speaker 02 We wanted to be doing a concept album and it was gonna be a gatefold and it was gonna be like a fashion magazine with stories and pictures and glam and, you know, stories we would write and we had a bunch of the songs written already, but it wasn't finished. But they just wanted to push that out there and get the, you know. They were just being crass, you know, suits. And so we took them to court, there was a, Mike Fish Flicker was the, the key man clause where we got out of it, but the compromise was that we had to release it, finish the album.
50:35 Billy Corgan? Officially, yeah.
50:36 Speaker 02 Officially release it with the existing cover and the artwork that existed with,
50:45 Speaker 02 but finish recording, leave the tracklist, but finish recording.
50:50 Billy Corgan? So crazy.
50:51 Speaker 02 Anything new for, in, in two weeks only and then release it. So the first copy had the stamp on it that was like, the first batch of them before there was a disclaimer, anyway, it's a really boring one.
51:08 Billy Corgan? But I think it's kind of similar to what I'm saying, it's like, even that situation, you're in a cool situation, they give you a little record deal, you do, you take off and then they're trying to drag you by the ankles and say, no, you gotta stay in this small situation, even Sam Phillips knew he had to sell Elvis's contract to RCA, I mean. You guys were ready to take off and even that weird record, which really wasn't a true record, that thing sold too.
51:33 Speaker 02 Yeah, it happened to Bruce Springsteen, you know.
51:35 Billy Corgan? Yeah, but you, you ended up, was it Epic you went to, right?
51:38 Speaker 02 Then we went over to Epic. A subsidiary.
51:40 Billy Corgan? Okay, now, but now, now, okay, major label, here you go. Was the, was the. Was, okay, because I know how those people think. You walk in those, okay, but when you walk in those meetings, are they, are they suddenly, they're gonna make it all about you and your sister, like, what, what's the stress of that moment?
51:56 Speaker 02 Well, the stress of that moment is kind of like, um, we've been a touring company so much. We've been touring nonstop for 200 shows in that first.
52:08 Billy Corgan? And opening for everybody, right?
52:10 Speaker 02 Opening for everybody.
52:10 Billy Corgan? Supertramp.
52:12 Speaker 02 Right.
52:12 Billy Corgan? Bachman Turner Overdrive.
52:14 Speaker 02 Yeah.
52:14 Billy Corgan? Hot Stewart. I'm sure there was a bunch that aren't even listed.
52:18 Speaker 02 A whole bunch of boogie bands from the South and all of them.
52:21 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
52:21 Speaker 02 And, uh, every, every festival known to man, you know, with everybody in there and, um, you know, and we were, so there was a pressurized situation to get another album finished and written and finished and recorded pretty quickly after we just needed a break from touring for like a two-year, two album, I think it was, a contract where you, you've got to churn them out, you know, crank them out on a timeline. And so our writing, our songwriting got a little more stressy. And so it was harder to be, get the, the, the flow, the energy without feeling like,
53:06 Speaker 02 okay, Mr. Man in the suit, I'm gonna write you a hit song, you know, to, on your timeline as you require them. And so we felt really, a lot of, we just felt, you know, stuck about it.
53:21 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
53:21 Speaker 02 And so we were in a hurry and we weren't being as, we were being kind of bitchy with our songwriting and we were biting the hand that feeds basically a little bit there. Oh, how punk of us to, you know, and so we had a couple of turkeys along the way. It didn't really work out until the MTV 80s and the, you know, the stable of LA's songwriter.
53:45 Billy Corgan? I can only speak for Chicago because they played all that stuff. So let's call it Heart 1.0. I mean, that stuff was on Chicago radio constantly. So I grew up hearing all that stuff.
53:55 Speaker 02 And there were some good songs.
53:56 Billy Corgan? Very good songs, but I'm saying it's like, it's, I, I say it occasionally on, on, on this podcast that it's hard for people to understand in the modern age that rock back then was very regional. So a band might be huge in Cleveland and Chicago and Akron, Ohio, but that would be it.
54:14 Speaker 02 Yeah.
54:14 Billy Corgan? They wouldn't, they couldn't get arrested in LA. And there, there were bands that were huge in LA that couldn't get arrested in Chicago.
54:20 Speaker 02 Right.
54:20 Billy Corgan? And that's why there's so much touring went on because you had to kind of build your relationships and build your audience.
54:25 Speaker 02 You'd work with the radio guys to play the album, to play your song before you got to town, before you would play the song.
54:31 Billy Corgan? So you were huge in Chicago, that's all I know. Chicago guys were.
54:35 Speaker 02 Chicago was.
54:36 Billy Corgan? Big, big market.
54:37 Speaker 02 We always had a great relationship with Chicago and Detroit.
54:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
54:41 Speaker 02 Midwest.
54:42 Billy Corgan? I, I meant my memory, and I was, you know, I was, this would have been like I'm whatever, 10 years old, but my memory is that, that for whatever reason, it kind of shocks me because again, there's a lot of acoustic stuff on the records.
54:55 Speaker 02 Right.
54:55 Billy Corgan? You were really accepted by a rock audience wholeheartedly. And I think it's the way you were positioned on those stations. There were two stations in Chicago, W L U P and W M E T. But they played, even though they played like Zeppelin and Sabbath, they would play The Cars and Heart.
55:12 Speaker 02 Right, right.
55:13 Billy Corgan? So.
55:14 Speaker 02 Exactly.
55:14 Billy Corgan? They told their audience.
55:15 Speaker 02 We were crossover.
55:17 Billy Corgan? Yes, you, you belonged in this, in this tradition of rock.
55:20 Speaker 02 That told, that told the audience.
55:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
55:22 Speaker 02 Where to place us in, in their category.
55:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah, so, so.
55:26 Speaker 02 Which compartment we belonged in.
55:27 Billy Corgan? But in the Chicago market, you were presented as a credible rock band.
55:31 Speaker 02 Yeah.
55:32 Billy Corgan? It was less about being good looking or whatever. I don't know how it worked everywhere else, but in Chicago, it always was presented as, this is a great band.
55:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
55:40 Billy Corgan? You know?
55:41 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's, it's a rock, it's a real rock show. I mean, there still, even to this day, there's not a lot of girls in rock bands, like heavy rock bands. Heart's a heavy rock band.
55:53 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
55:55 Speaker 02 We do a lot of romantic ballads and moments and, you know, Led Zeppelin rain song or going to California or whatever. Because that's really satisfying stuff to play, but we also, we, we put the hammer down as well.
56:10 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
56:11 Speaker 02 And it makes us different, I think, from a whole bunch of other bands.
56:16 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
56:16 Speaker 02 Especially having women in it. So.
56:20 Billy Corgan? I guess.
56:21 Speaker 02 So I think that helped us.
56:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
56:22 Speaker 02 Stay in that category.
56:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
56:24 Speaker 02 Because we're actual rock.
56:26 Billy Corgan? It's not so much to make a social point as much as it is that you were in a, in a place where there really wasn't a business for women fronting rock bands. I mean, yes, there were women that fronted rock bands, but you kind of built a different type of business that didn't exist before you.
56:39 Speaker 02 I, I think that's right. I think that's what radio was really, especially in the Midwest starting out, was even the most helpful for us.
56:48 Billy Corgan? Yes.
56:49 Speaker 02 With, because of those radio stations that put, helped put us in that demographic, you know.
56:54 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
56:54 Speaker 02 Along with other.
56:56 Billy Corgan? I mean, I have very strong memories.
56:57 Speaker 02 Serious rock bands.
56:58 Billy Corgan? Yeah, but I mean, I have such strong memories of, of having, having you marketed.
57:03 Speaker 02 Yeah.
57:03 Billy Corgan? Amongst these greats, you know.
57:05 Speaker 02 Yeah.
57:05 Billy Corgan? It was very interesting.
57:06 Speaker 02 Really cool though. I mean.
57:08 Billy Corgan? Yeah, absolutely.
57:10 Speaker 02 I have so much gratitude around that. Gratitude that, you know, we were, we can't, we didn't just intentionally break some glass ceiling for women, but we were just there being competent to begin with.
57:25 Billy Corgan? That's, that's kind of my point. It's, you didn't market it as, hey, we're two hot chicks fronting a band. It's like, no, we're, we're a credible band. This is what we do. We have our own musical style.
57:35 Speaker 02 Yeah.
57:35 Billy Corgan? And I think that's part of why it resonated with the Chicago rock crowd or the Midwest rock crowd, because it wasn't about anything other than we play great music.
57:44 Speaker 02 Right. We were just coming through the door of being good musicians first. And the image making stuff with, that started up with MTV was after that. So.
57:56 Billy Corgan? Well, we'll get there. That's a whole nother.
57:57 Speaker 02 There's a whole, yeah, there's a story to tell.
58:00 Billy Corgan? We'll get to that story.
58:02 Billy Corgan? This is my little note, but I'm gonna just tell you what I wrote, cuz I think it makes me laugh. We're actually born one day apart. I'm March 17th, you're March 16th.
58:10 Speaker 02 Oh, you're St. Patrick's Day.
58:11 Billy Corgan? Yes.
58:12 Speaker 02 Oh, my goodness.
58:13 Billy Corgan? But it makes me laugh because I'm also in a band with a Gemini. So it's like, when I think of you in a band with a Gemini sister and you as a Pisces, it just makes me laugh.
58:22 Speaker 02 Oh, well.
58:23 Billy Corgan? Cuz you're talking about two twin signs, right?
58:25 Speaker 02 Anne is, is June 19th, the day after Paul McCartney's birthday.
58:31 Billy Corgan? There you go.
58:32 Speaker 02 And she's a double Gemini, so she's at least four people, you know, the twins.
58:38 Billy Corgan? Which one do you get along with?
58:41 Speaker 02 Couple of them.
58:41 Billy Corgan? A couple.
58:42 Speaker 02 Yeah, a couple.
58:43 Billy Corgan? I always say with Geminis, it's like.
58:44 Speaker 02 The main two twins.
58:45 Billy Corgan? I always say with Geminis, there's the person out front that sort of does about 95% of the work, and then occasionally the other one shows up, and you're like, who are you?
58:53 Speaker 02 Exactly.
58:54 Billy Corgan? There's this other person in there, you're like, I don't really know you, but hi, you're here, yeah.
58:58 Speaker 02 Like, where were you? You know, like, yeah, exactly.
59:05 Billy Corgan? You can take this however you want, but I did see where you, you were talking about the, you know, the beautiful cocaine heydays of the 70s, and you talked and your sister talked about, I think she was talking more about alcohol, but you were talking about cocaine, and it's not really a question, it's just to illustrate that.
59:23 Speaker 02 You mean the 80s?
59:25 Billy Corgan? Well, but were you parting in the 70s, or is it?
59:28 Speaker 02 Well, the mind expanded part was the 70s, after the late 60s.
59:32 Billy Corgan? Yes.
59:33 Speaker 02 That was the mind-opening times and the human potential.
59:36 Billy Corgan? Are we, are we talking pot, mushrooms?
59:38 Speaker 02 Pot, mushrooms, and psychedelia, you know, LSD.
59:42 Billy Corgan? Okay, right.
59:43 Speaker 02 And so, I saw God a few times in the late 60s, for sure, with the right music on and the right setting, and the right dosage, you know, and all the things that you never would ever, ever, folks, ever do again today, but, cuz it's, there's no, you know, there's no control over anything anymore, but then, when cocaine started taking over with MTV in the 80s.
1:00:12 Billy Corgan? Okay, so that's an 80s.
1:00:13 Speaker 02 That's an 80s thing.
1:00:14 Billy Corgan? Okay, so we're at the 80s.
1:00:15 Speaker 02 So then it's the ego 80s.
1:00:17 Billy Corgan? Sure.
1:00:19 Billy Corgan? What year in your mind, you know, does, does the, let's call it the original blueprint of the band stop working as effectively? And then you're kind of put in this position. I know you switch record labels, but you're put in this position now where it's outside writers and.
1:00:34 Speaker 02 Yeah. Well, the first, like 1975, back in the year of our Lord, 1975, until about five years later, when it was turning into 1980.
1:00:47 Billy Corgan? So somewhere there, you start to feel.
1:00:49 Speaker 02 The five-year lifespan of Heart was pretty much over.
1:00:52 Billy Corgan? Okay.
1:00:53 Speaker 02 Like they say, every rock band has a five-year lifespan.
1:00:56 Billy Corgan? I go, I go seven, but it's, it's.
1:00:58 Speaker 02 Five to seven.
1:00:59 Billy Corgan? Yeah. I think seven's the magic number there for me.
1:01:02 Speaker 02 But you remember with five, it was like U2, it was like everybody. It was cool for about five or seven years and then not. And then you have to kind of prove it all over again.
1:01:11 Billy Corgan? You've got to be cool again.
1:01:12 Speaker 02 Got to get cool somehow again. Am I cool yet? You know?
1:01:16 Billy Corgan? But what's, what's the year they sit you down and say, by the way, you've got to come at this.
1:01:21 Speaker 02 That's about 1970, I mean, 84, 84. Because we'd done the private audition album in the early eighties, which was a turkey. Had some good songs, but it was a turkey. So then we had no, we ran out of our contract and management and everything and record label and everything kind of dropped off. So to get back in the game around 80, mid eighties, we resigned, we took on outside songwriters, we put on the, you know, the corsets and did the videos.
1:02:00 Billy Corgan? Big hair.
1:02:01 Speaker 02 The big hair and, you know, and got some really great songs out of that.
1:02:07 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:02:08 Speaker 02 For sure. I mean, that we still love to do.
1:02:10 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:02:11 Speaker 02 But the artifice part of it, just living behind the imaging making part of it, was really not our natural state of being.
1:02:19 Billy Corgan? It strikes me as odd.
1:02:20 Speaker 02 We were just like little. Little barefoot flower children from Seattle, basically. And tomboys, you know.
1:02:28 Billy Corgan? So, because it strikes me as odd, because again, I was listening. Let's call it Heart 1.0. So, so when this other Heart shows up, it's like, well, it's not that it's bad, it's just not the Heart that I know.
1:02:40 Speaker 02 When you're in Africa, you put on the African clothes, you know, this kind of felt like when in Rome, you put on the toga, you know, like the whole culture had moved.
1:02:49 Billy Corgan? But did you, did you internally, it's kind of a, please, I don't want to cut you off.
1:02:55 Speaker 02 One word I was trying to come up with, it was, it was, um, it was when you try, when you go, it was a costume party.
1:03:03 Billy Corgan? Okay. But internally, and because you're siblings, I think it seems to be more intense in my mind, but you tell me. No, what I'm saying is,
1:03:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:03:14 Billy Corgan? You're sitting there, this is my fantasy scenario, and you take it from here. You're sitting there like, okay, they want us to do this, they're putting pressure on us, and we can take this lane, or we can keep doing what we're doing. What is the, because to me, knowing how important music is to you and your sister and your family, and that you had won by being an integral artist. It's a weird thing to sort of flip the switch down the road, you know, some eight to 10 years later and be like, okay, now we're going to become more of a commercial entity.
1:03:48 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:03:48 Billy Corgan? And sort of subsume ourselves in this greater force. And the thing that really jumped out at me as a fellow songwriter is five hits on the big record, the Heart, I think it's just self-titled Heart.
1:03:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:04:01 Billy Corgan? So five songs, five singles on the record, you guys, you and your sister didn't write one, one of those songs.
1:04:07 Speaker 02 That's right.
1:04:07 Billy Corgan? Did that, did that do something to you, or you were cool with it?
1:04:12 Speaker 02 It did something to us. As songwriters, we had like artistic integrity. Our precious artistic integrity was really poked at by that, you know.
1:04:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:04:26 Speaker 02 Because, and, you know, because we'd been such a hardworking touring company, such a touring act. You know, we, we'd been, we just didn't have, we felt like we'd been.
1:04:41 Speaker 02 Kind of shoved into a conveyor belt, kind of commercially, a conveyor belt of hit making machinery where we didn't have time to really search our own souls and be, you know, get our next better songs written yet.
1:04:58 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:04:58 Speaker 02 Because we were so busy churning out the hits that other people had written and, you know, and the money was bigger than ever. And it was bigger than the first big success we ever had.
1:05:10 Billy Corgan? I mean, when it hit, you guys were massive.
1:05:13 Speaker 02 It was massive in the eighties. And, um, sorry, fiddling with the sound man's life.
1:05:20 Billy Corgan? He'll come out here with the stick.
1:05:22 Speaker 02 Ah, don't touch your, don't touch your top. Um, but it was, it was kind of like a real devil's bargain. I mean, in, in the classical sense.
1:05:32 Billy Corgan? Did you feel that at the time?
1:05:34 Speaker 02 Totally. Yeah, we, I mean, I think Anne in particular, I guess, I guess the perfect, one of the more perfect examples is the song, All I Want to Do is Make Love to You, a Mutt Lang song that was our biggest ever massive smash global hit around the world. And it's a, it's a great song. It sounds really cool. It's a really great track and I love the track. The, you know, the hook is there. Like the reduction just kicks. It sounds great on the radio. And you just want to roll down your window, you know, and chew gum or something, you know, when you hear that
1:06:17 Speaker 02 on a summer day, you know, and, but Anne had to sing the lyrics. Right? And her own artistic integrity was pushed to its limit where she had to tell this story song that felt more like a country western story song.
1:06:32 Billy Corgan? Sure.
1:06:33 Speaker 02 About this rainy night.
1:06:35 Billy Corgan? I see.
1:06:36 Speaker 02 Where some, some, we changed the gender on the song.
1:06:39 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:06:40 Speaker 02 And they banned us in Ireland consequently. Which was kind of, we were kind of proud of that, actually.
1:06:46 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:06:47 Speaker 02 But, so it just wasn't a fit, you know?
1:06:50 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:06:51 Speaker 02 The, the commercialism, the corporateness of it all.
1:06:55 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:06:55 Speaker 02 Was just not our bag.
1:06:57 Billy Corgan? I don't, I don't mean this as a joke or a pun, but the, the phrase comes to mind is that like, did it break your heart? I mean, it.
1:07:04 Speaker 02 It did, though. It, it was kind of heartbreaking. It was kind of, uh,
1:07:12 Speaker 02 soul bending.
1:07:13 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:07:14 Speaker 02 Cause you just, you know, like inside, you're just kind of like, I'm smiling. And I'm really happy for the great success. But, um, living behind the image, the look and the stilettos and the hair and the hairspray and the, and trying to make it be, look like an MTV video on live stages then.
1:07:36 Billy Corgan? I see.
1:07:37 Speaker 02 Was even harder.
1:07:38 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:07:39 Speaker 02 And the acoustic guitar was so outman during that time. It was like, no, nobody wants to hear that folkie now.
1:07:46 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:07:47 Speaker 02 So I wasn't really kind of encouraged or, or kind of even in some ways allowed to put anything acoustic on a lot of those songs unless it was just like, oh, just a little spice that you leave way up in the top, way over there in the upper register that you don't even hear. And so, um, so when I had the, the kind of fluke first number one single, These Dreams that I sang myself, I didn't have a guitar in my hands to sing it with.
1:08:21 Billy Corgan? I see.
1:08:22 Speaker 02 So I was like, what am I supposed to do with my hands?
1:08:25 Billy Corgan? It is weird when you're used to playing guitar on stage and suddenly you gotta stand there.
1:08:28 Speaker 02 I had no idea what to do. And so like, I was trying to be like Joni Mitchell, you know? Like she has the coolest expression, you know, when she was up and not playing guitar, you know? And my mom came to one of our shows, she goes, "So when you sang These Dreams, you looked like you're doing a hula."
1:08:50 Speaker 02 I'm like, oh shit.
1:08:52 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:08:53 Speaker 02 I, I, I should at least hold the guitar. So then I just learned it on the mandolin. And then we've done different ways of me being able to play it while I sing it.
1:09:02 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:09:02 Speaker 02 Anyway, but the, the eighties was not a perfect fit. But there were the, the songs, some of those great songs, like Alone in particular, and These Dreams.
1:09:12 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:09:12 Speaker 02 But Alone sounds to me like it could have been one of those French café, World War One in black and white, you know, kind of a crooner, like a woman singing about her soldier, you know, in the war.
1:09:28 Billy Corgan? Did you, did you, compromise may not be the right word, but let's just say call, it's, it's, it's a form of compromise. You're in this situation, but um, did you see it at the time as, as just survival? Was it, was it like, look, this is kind of what we got to do to stay in the game?
1:09:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. I think we, honestly, we felt like we have to put, we have to wear these clothes and we need to make these videos and we have to take the suggestion of the record company and try out these songs. And we would go, we listened to stacks of demo songs by all these hit songwriters. And some were the ones that obviously were a fit, were a great fit. But um, but when we uh, when we went into rehearsals and tried to learn all these songs, like song after song after song, it was like, it felt like um, we were giving up
1:10:29 Speaker 02 our territory as artists because it was someone else's um, style.
1:10:36 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:10:36 Speaker 02 That they were like, what color do you want to paint this room? You know, the 32nd, like listening to demos is like the 32nd. Well, what char, what character would you like me to become?
1:10:48 Billy Corgan? I see.
1:10:49 Speaker 02 And especially for Anne, singing the words, like, you know, when she, she, she started having this big reaction towards a lot of these songs feeling like a victim. Like, these are songs written like, why do you lie? You know, um.
1:11:10 Speaker 02 Even What About Love has got a lot more of a punchy kind of I'm angry at you thing.
1:11:16 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:11:17 Speaker 02 But like, um, he left me, now what do I do? You know, the victim songs were just not her way of expressing rock music.
1:11:29 Billy Corgan? It hurts to hear you tell it. I don't know. I mean,
1:11:31 Speaker 02 You know what I mean?
1:11:32 Billy Corgan? Not my, not my, not my story, but it just hurts.
1:11:34 Speaker 02 She's not a whiny singer. So she, she, she's just,
1:11:39 Billy Corgan? You know,
1:11:39 Speaker 02 Could not get behind the girly, girly stuff.
1:11:43 Billy Corgan? Yeah, because to, to, to the Gen X generation, you know, uh, that grew up hearing those earlier songs, it was so, the empowering is a weird word because it's very coded in this world. But it, but, but it was like, this is our music and this is who we are and this is what we do. And your sister has a very unique stage charisma, you know?
1:12:06 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:12:07 Billy Corgan? You know, kind of like a, like almost like a darker Stevie Nicks or something, you know what I mean? Like more, more like,
1:12:12 Speaker 02 She's quite the storyteller.
1:12:14 Billy Corgan? Yes. And, and, and you know,
1:12:15 Speaker 02 But she means it and phoning it in is never what she's,
1:12:18 Billy Corgan? Okay. So that's what I'm saying. So suddenly you put a person who's used to singing their own lyrics, Songs they believe in, stories from their own life, you know, some of your biggest
1:12:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:12:28 Billy Corgan? 1.0 hits are, you know, they're based on things that actually happened.
1:12:31 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:12:31 Billy Corgan? And suddenly you're in this weird spot where you're like, what happened to the band? What happened to the story?
1:12:37 Speaker 02 Right.
1:12:37 Billy Corgan? I don't want to, I don't want to connect this, but, but you tell me if there's any connection because much was made in this era about your sister's parents. It was a huge
1:12:45 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:12:46 Billy Corgan? Talking point. I can't imagine it was very comfortable for her.
1:12:49 Speaker 02 No, that was painful stuff. Definitely. Um, and in the ego, sort of cocaine ego driven, image driven eighties, it was way less mind expanded from where we came from. Um, and you know, corporate, the corporateness was kicking in on all, all levels, on every level. And so they would put her, stretch the frame in the video.
1:13:16 Billy Corgan? Oh, yeah.
1:13:16 Speaker 02 It was really obvious. They were trying to make her look skinnier. And a lot of the, um, live reviews of our live shows would really, really, uh, trash on Anne, you know, just trash talk about her weight. And so we just never even looked at reviews anymore. We, it was just really, um, Rough time for her emotionally to just be this amazing singer. Like, I would go around and try to stick up for her and go, "So is Aretha Franklin too fat?" You know, it doesn't matter if it's Aretha Franklin, you know?
1:13:54 Billy Corgan? Well, now it seems even sillier because you see with body positivity movement, there's some of the biggest artists in the world are, are people have a little bit of size in them and it doesn't diminish them in the eyes of the audience. In many ways, the audience says you're a real person who's not trying to be somebody you're not.
1:14:09 Speaker 02 Like Adele, you know, when Adele first made a big splash. You know, she wouldn't lost weight and looked great, but I mean, people loved her for her talent and it was a great lesson in the culture for that reason. When Adele made a huge hit out of her talent because the sound of her voice was so relatable and so emotional and real. And so, you know.
1:14:36 Billy Corgan? But was there any connection there between the circumstance you found yourself in with having success but feeling somewhat disassociated with it? And her own, and her own issues was like, did that connect or they just ran on two separate tracks?
1:14:50 Speaker 02 Well, there's where you have to learn your compartmentalizing skills, you know, in your life. Because these things are running over, all this painful kind of is over here.
1:15:03 Billy Corgan? I see.
1:15:04 Speaker 02 And then, but still, there's this compartment where it's really fun to be in a rock band and really fun to be on a big rock stage and but my feet hurt because I don't like wearing these shoes, you know? And then there's this other compartment where, you know, you've got your family and you've got a beach house because of all the success that all this other, these other compartments have provided you with. So it's, you know, I think it's just kind of dangerous to compartmentalize your life too much.
1:15:33 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:15:34 Speaker 02 But it's also a skill that, it's a survival mechanism at the same time.
1:15:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah, this is, this is more of a, of a, of a personality artistic question than a, than a life question. I hope that makes sense. But, you know, you were in a marriage with somebody who's a very famous writer-director. You met when he was doing Fast Times at Ridgemont High somewhere around there, as Cameron Crowe we're talking about.
1:16:00 Speaker 02 Yep.
1:16:01 Billy Corgan? So it strikes me that you have these two very strong personalities in your life. You know what I mean?
1:16:08 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:16:09 Billy Corgan? That seems to come out.
1:16:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, well, I'm a collaborator. I love collaborating, you know.
1:16:17 Speaker 02 And with Anne, I love collaborating with Anne. And my, and our friend Sue from when I was 12, we met. Wrote a bunch of heart songs with me and Anne, Sue Ennis. And then with Cameron, you know, I'd been with guys in the band, which was really a bad idea. And so here was this really cool, kind of nerdy, smart writer type guy, you know, who had, could really, had a real grasp of words and, and wrote for Rolling Stone magazine.
1:16:52 Billy Corgan? But also a sense, sorry, but he has, he has a great
1:16:55 Speaker 02 intellectually.
1:16:56 Billy Corgan? Sense of cultural zeitgeist stuff, which is, which is rare.
1:16:59 Speaker 02 The, the cultural zeitgeist about music.
1:17:02 Billy Corgan? A culture too.
1:17:03 Speaker 02 And the whole culture.
1:17:04 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:17:05 Speaker 02 And how the culture feels and how to feel.
1:17:08 Billy Corgan? That's a rare, that's a rare talent, you know?
1:17:10 Speaker 02 It's a huge talent to see where the cultures, what the culture's feeling or about to feel.
1:17:16 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:17:16 Speaker 02 And hear, want to hear.
1:17:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:17:19 Speaker 02 You know, what they hear, what they want to hear.
1:17:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:17:21 Speaker 02 And so that's a rare gift.
1:17:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:17:24 Speaker 02 Too. So I'm, I love collaborating with
1:17:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:17:28 Speaker 02 really gifted, talented.
1:17:30 Billy Corgan? Because the, the, the, the obvious question, I think, is, you know, most people want to make things about themselves.
1:17:39 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:17:39 Billy Corgan? You know what I mean? But in your life, you haven't necessarily made it about you. You've been always worked in a more like a collective frame.
1:17:46 Speaker 02 That is true with me.
1:17:50 Speaker 02 I'm, but I, I like being a leader and I like being decisive.
1:17:56 Speaker 02 Like executive decisions to make. I do that, you know? I'm okay to jump at that and just, okay, everybody shut up. Here's what it's going to be, you know? Because too many cooks in the kitchen, I can't do that either.
1:18:13 Billy Corgan? So let's put, let's put a little smiley face on this, the eighties talk. So.
1:18:20 Billy Corgan? Like many in the Gen X generation, when you showed up on Alice in Chains' song, "The Rooster," it was kind of a really interesting thing. Not only was it a beautiful song, and it's a classic, and it's such a beautiful song that Jerry wrote about his father's experiences. I love Jerry. Jerry's one of the great writers of all time.
1:18:39 Speaker 02 My brother.
1:18:40 Billy Corgan? I'm always at the altar of Jerry.
1:18:43 Speaker 02 Me too, I am too.
1:18:44 Billy Corgan? I'm not one to hand out a lot of praise in that regard, but Jerry too is unbelievable.
1:18:48 Speaker 02 He's a great writer, great player.
1:18:49 Billy Corgan? Please.
1:18:50 Speaker 02 And singer.
1:18:51 Billy Corgan? Yes. But the other, I think, and I'm sure it wasn't intentional, it was kind of like, for someone like me, it was kind of like, "Oh yeah, they're cool." It was like a moment to remember.
1:19:06 Speaker 02 Well, that's, you know, in the 90s then.
1:19:10 Billy Corgan? It's 93, 94.
1:19:11 Speaker 02 We've arrived at the 90s now.
1:19:13 Billy Corgan? Yes, yes.
1:19:14 Speaker 02 And I'll have to thank God we're out of the 80s now, and that's what it felt like coming back to Seattle then.
1:19:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:19:21 Speaker 02 And I got to meet you around that time at some club.
1:19:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:19:26 Speaker 02 We were upstairs, crammed into some smoky club, and I was like, "Hey, it's you." And you're like, "Hey, it's you, what?"
1:19:34 Billy Corgan? I talked to you about the Heartless 7-Inch, but that's what I remember.
1:19:37 Speaker 02 That's what it was. Oh, that's what it was. I remember that really well. And I was like, "Oh my God, I love his music." And, you know, I was mutually impressed with you. But we came home, and guys like Jerry, we came back out of the LA 80s, kind of, to back to Seattle to take a break and start a band called The Love Mongers that was just a side project.
1:20:05 Billy Corgan? Just for fun, yeah.
1:20:05 Speaker 02 No managers, no record companies, just go play and sing in clubs, whatever covers we wanted to do, or whatever we wanted to do. But when Andrew Woods died from mother love bone, right around the same time, my friend Kelly Curtis, who's still my best friend, was managing.
1:20:28 Billy Corgan? And is still Pearl Jam's manager.
1:20:30 Speaker 02 Still Pearl, yeah, was still, I think, still doing Pearl Jam.
1:20:37 Speaker 02 Said, you gotta come and meet the community at this house where we're gonna have like a wake for Andrew Woods.
1:20:47 Billy Corgan? Oh, okay.
1:20:48 Speaker 02 Bring the dogs. And so we loaded up the dogs, me and Cameron, and we went to, I think it was Andrew, Andrew Woods' house in Seattle. Big, big, huge old, kind of a band house. And his, his wife or girl was grieving there and all the dogs were running around and everybody was getting crying and laughing and loving the dogs together. And that's where I met Jerry and Mike Vines and, you know,
1:21:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:21:20 Speaker 02 Lane and
1:21:21 Billy Corgan? Great people.
1:21:22 Speaker 02 All those guys, the Screaming Trees guys.
1:21:24 Billy Corgan? Great, great guys.
1:21:25 Speaker 02 Great band, great guys. You know, the whole scene really came out for that.
1:21:31 Billy Corgan? Did it?
1:21:32 Speaker 02 Night. That was a big party.
1:21:33 Billy Corgan? Is it too obvious to say you were kind of like, oh, this, this is what I remember?
1:21:40 Billy Corgan? You know, not, not
1:21:41 Speaker 02 From being in
1:21:41 Billy Corgan? No, no, but the, it's, it's like, this is the music I remember, like, people together.
1:21:47 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, yeah.
1:21:48 Billy Corgan? That's what I'm saying. It's like, it's like, it's like, oh, this is back.
1:21:51 Speaker 02 This is, well, I'm back where it feels like a music community. Yeah.
1:21:56 Billy Corgan? So there's, so the unintended consequence, I think, of you guys being on the
1:21:59 Speaker 02 It was the perfect blessing inside of a huger curse, you know,
1:22:04 Billy Corgan? Well, sure.
1:22:04 Speaker 02 Was the blessing of coming together at a wake
1:22:08 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:22:09 Speaker 02 For a really great local guy.
1:22:14 Speaker 02 And I'd seen, I'd seen Mother La bone at the, I think it was the off-ramp or something.
1:22:19 Billy Corgan? And, and he would have probably been a fairly, fairly
1:22:22 Speaker 02 Andrew Woods was great.
1:22:22 Billy Corgan? This is very successful.
1:22:24 Speaker 02 Yeah. And he, he chugged on a big pitcher of beer and spit it out in the crowd. And I spit beer all over me because I was up in the crowd. And I was like, yeah, you know, I've been anointed, you know? And then he died. And so we all met there and, and Jerry was kind of the first
1:22:46 Speaker 02 Sweet soul would kind of make me feel like, oh God, they don't hate us after the eighties, after the empty.
1:22:52 Billy Corgan? No, you were, you were, you were beloved by that generation. That's, that's.
1:22:56 Speaker 02 Which I, we didn't understand that. We just thought we, they think we're sellouts because of all of the, you know, the corporateness that they were all.
1:23:05 Billy Corgan? That's what I mean about a reminder. It was kind of like.
1:23:07 Speaker 02 Here's a community.
1:23:08 Billy Corgan? Now, to hear your voice is, in that context, especially being in the generation, it was like.
1:23:14 Speaker 02 That was the moment where it kind of, you know, we kind of melded into the, the nineties.
1:23:20 Billy Corgan? But I, I think, it, it might sound trite to say, but it sort of reminded me that you were one of us, or we were one of you.
1:23:26 Speaker 02 That's what it felt like. Exactly.
1:23:27 Billy Corgan? You kind of come home back to the music.
1:23:30 Speaker 02 Yeah. And, you know, real guitars and real drums and real garages that sound good.
1:23:36 Billy Corgan? But it's in the name. It's heart, right? You know?
1:23:38 Speaker 02 I know. Still always trying to live up to the name.
1:23:42 Billy Corgan? Well, that's, that's a, that's a tough, that's a tough.
1:23:44 Speaker 02 It's hard to live up to sometimes.
1:23:48 Billy Corgan? So I think that's a nice bow on that story, right? Because we know after that, it kind of, it, it balances itself out.
1:23:55 Speaker 02 When Jerry Cantrell came up to me in one, in the corner with a guitar and sit at Anne's house at a party and said, how do you play the beginning of Mr. Hall Wind? I'm like, okay, this is good. This is a good thing. I'm, I've got a family. I've got a family now. You know?
1:24:16 Billy Corgan? That's beautiful.
1:24:16 Speaker 02 Back with my family.
1:24:21 Billy Corgan? I, I saw you interviewed by Dan Rather and, and he, he.
1:24:25 Speaker 02 Right.
1:24:25 Billy Corgan? He asked you some interesting questions, but um, there's that moment and it's mid nineties where you, you, you meet with your sister and you say, look, I gotta kind of put this thing on pause. I gotta have to try to have a family and.
1:24:40 Speaker 02 Right.
1:24:40 Billy Corgan? That's gotta be a tough. Tough moment.
1:24:44 Speaker 02 Yeah, that was really a tough moment. She didn't understand what I was, what I want, why I wanted to step away and try to start my family. She didn't get it and she, she never did, I don't think. She never got it.
1:25:02 Billy Corgan? What, what, if it's too personal, just you can skip past it, but what, what, what didn't she get? Like which part of that didn't she get?
1:25:10 Speaker 02 Um, well, I think nurture, like I'm a nurturing person just by nature. I'm nurturing nature person.
1:25:22 Speaker 02 And she's more of, she defines herself more by the actual job.
1:25:27 Billy Corgan? I see.
1:25:27 Speaker 02 And the, the, the work of it.
1:25:30 Billy Corgan? Yeah, that's how I am. So that makes sense to me.
1:25:32 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:25:32 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:25:33 Speaker 02 Well, you're Pisces though.
1:25:35 Billy Corgan? But I'm a weird.
1:25:36 Speaker 02 But you're a weird Pisces.
1:25:37 Billy Corgan? I'm a weird Pisces, yeah.
1:25:38 Speaker 02 No, I get that though.
1:25:40 Billy Corgan? But I get the idea of being defined by your work.
1:25:42 Speaker 02 Just defined by the work, but I think in Anne's case, just personally, she, um, she's really feels alone and lonely and not, not okay without it. So she, she leads, she, she, uh, she's not okay without it. So she has to have the stage to be okay.
1:26:08 Billy Corgan? I see.
1:26:08 Speaker 02 To get the love back from an audience is how she's, um, gonna be okay. And, you know, I've done a lot of therapy over the last few years. And it's really helped me figure out stuff like that. But, um, I think in Anne's case, you know, she relies her own definition of who she is. She has to have an audience and she has to be on a stage. And that's the only way she feels like she really gets love in her life. As much as I love her and I always will, um, love to be on stages with her and be, or any room with her.
1:26:48 Billy Corgan? Let me take, let me take a guess and see if this resonates with you.
1:26:54 Billy Corgan? Again, if it's too personal, you can skip past it.
1:26:58 Billy Corgan? I think for people who are the best at what they do, I think it's very confusing for them. When either through life or health limitations or circumstance, they don't have access to the thing that sort of, you know, connects with the thing that they do.
1:27:16 Speaker 02 Right.
1:27:16 Billy Corgan? On one hand, it's a gift because, like I said, your sister's the type of person, she just opens her mouth and it works.
1:27:23 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:27:23 Billy Corgan? It's crazy, right? I watched a bunch of old live clips of you and there it is. I mean, it's, it's not like, it's not studery, studio trickery. It's like, it is there.
1:27:32 Speaker 02 It's just all there.
1:27:33 Billy Corgan? And you've heard it more than anybody else in the whole world.
1:27:36 Speaker 02 True.
1:27:37 Billy Corgan? But, but there's that, there's that thing where I think for people who are extremely gifted, they don't totally understand the nature of the gift. And the closest thing they can get to understanding the nature of the gift is when it's in action.
1:27:50 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:27:51 Billy Corgan? Because, because when it's not in action, and again, I'm asking your opinion, I'm just giving mine.
1:27:57 Speaker 02 Right.
1:27:57 Billy Corgan? When it's not in action, it's sort of confusing because that, that is the thing that defines everything. It's the Promethean fire. Without the Promethean fire, it's kind of like, well, who am I?
1:28:09 Speaker 02 You couldn't say it better than that. I mean, I couldn't say it better than that. You're spot, you're exactly on the crux of it all with her, her need to be fulfilled in her life by doing the work.
1:28:24 Billy Corgan? Yes.
1:28:25 Speaker 02 And when I needed to take for myself, needed to step away from that, she took it as punishment. Or something and never got over.
1:28:35 Billy Corgan? Jealousy or what, what's the punishment? Is it?
1:28:38 Speaker 02 I think punishing her by not being there to continue to support, you know, the beautiful habit of we have in heart that supports her well-being.
1:28:52 Speaker 02 Her sense of purpose and being at all, you know.
1:28:55 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:28:56 Speaker 02 Her life, her life that, her fulfillment. But I think punishment, I mean, I, I was just trying to just like, this is a sabbatical. I'll be right back. Nothing is changing. I'm just going over here.
1:29:13 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:29:14 Speaker 02 There's a pause, then we're back, you know? And, but sort of a jealousy too, because she doesn't.
1:29:22 Speaker 02 Has the nat- this, she didn't wanna naturally do that for her own. She wasn't as interested in having kids as I was. She didn't have a husband either at the time. So, um, I think she wanted to have everything I wanted, but not without losing the job at the same time, you know? So, just kind of an impossible scenario for her to grasp or for us to um, balance with each other on over. And, but you know, then we, we've sort of pushed through some really rough stuff and got back.
1:29:58 Speaker 02 Where the safety of the two of us, like regardless of, it's, it's like being in the eye of a hurricane when we're together. Because there's all the trips, the power trips that swirl around. There's cows flying by, you know? There's tractors, um, management, all that, all that stuff that can go so wrong for so long. Will and has been going wrong for a long time and, but then we get up on a stage together and there's this bubble. And there's this safe zone and there's magic there.
1:30:37 Speaker 02 And it's just bigger than, it's, you know, it's like the songs themselves are larger than life.
1:30:44 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:30:45 Speaker 02 It's what the songs inform us all, you know, like the songs we love, so your songs, you know, that people hold in their souls that, that help them through their lives that it's the, it's the healing power of music, right?
1:31:02 Speaker 02 Um, you know, I'm preaching to the choir here, I know, but uh, it's, it's what good music can do.
1:31:08 Billy Corgan? Yeah. But what strikes me when you're talking is, is it's that you're sisters.
1:31:14 Speaker 02 Right. It's blood harmony.
1:31:16 Billy Corgan? At the end of the day, it's the, it's, it's the bond.
1:31:19 Speaker 02 It's the bond of family. Yeah. You're right.
1:31:21 Billy Corgan? That's the beauty in that story.
1:31:23 Speaker 02 The day. Yeah. Hopefully the day's not ending anytime soon.
1:31:27 Billy Corgan? I just wanna say, thank you for sharing all that. It's really beautiful.
1:31:30 Speaker 02 Oh, no problem.
1:31:31 Billy Corgan? The one thing I wanna say about this, sort of the Promethean gift. It's more an oft told story when somebody has the Promethean gift and they throw it away.
1:31:42 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:31:42 Billy Corgan? The other side of that story is the person who wants to continue to use that Promethean gift. Their life is defined by the use of that gift. And again, through circumstance or health or life, we just, whatever life happens. They're not able to apply it in the same way. That's a less told story. But in many ways, it's, it, there is an honorable aspect to it because it's like, I've been given something and I want to use it.
1:32:08 Speaker 02 That's right. And, and being kept from using it, you know, can be just like being wounded.
1:32:16 Billy Corgan? That's kind of what I'm trying to say.
1:32:18 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:32:19 Billy Corgan? Because I've, because I've been lucky enough to play with really incredibly people that are talented in a way that I find sort of shocking. And that's why I even use the word with your, like your sister. There's a shocking talent there. It's like, how does that work?
1:32:34 Speaker 02 Very well said.
1:32:36 Billy Corgan? Because it's more than just winning a genetic lottery.
1:32:38 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:32:39 Billy Corgan? You got the right set of pipes.
1:32:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:32:41 Billy Corgan? You know, like it's all there, like whatever, if you want to make a star in a test tube, then there it is. It's like beauty, charisma, sass, fire.
1:32:51 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:32:52 Billy Corgan? A voice, not just a voice, a voice that means something to people. And you were part of that, that beautiful organization of that.
1:33:00 Speaker 02 Though I know, I get to accompany that fire, you know, I'm part of the fire.
1:33:05 Billy Corgan? Absolutely.
1:33:05 Speaker 02 I make part, I make.
1:33:07 Billy Corgan? Well, I think.
1:33:07 Speaker 02 I fuel the fire.
1:33:08 Billy Corgan? This is a bit therapy, but I mean, I think what she was saying, what she was saying in her own, now we're talking Pisces talk. I think what she was saying to you in her moment was, I, I need you.
1:33:19 Speaker 02 Right.
1:33:20 Billy Corgan? Which is really, if you think about it, it's ultimately an endorsement.
1:33:23 Speaker 02 Well, it was an endorsement, but it's like, you know, don't leave me.
1:33:27 Billy Corgan? Sure.
1:33:27 Speaker 02 Like she felt abandoned.
1:33:29 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:33:29 Speaker 02 Cause I needed to do something with my life that wasn't the two of us doing it together.
1:33:34 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:33:35 Speaker 02 And I get that, I completely.
1:33:36 Billy Corgan? You must be a really good supporter because she probably didn't know how much she needed you until she was gonna lose you.
1:33:43 Speaker 02 Well, well, I, I never wanted to make her feel left.
1:33:47 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:33:48 Speaker 02 Either.
1:33:48 Billy Corgan? Well, you, you proved that over time.
1:33:51 Speaker 02 She did.
1:33:52 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:33:52 Speaker 02 And you know, and we've, um, we've still got, um, probably a victory lap to do or two.
1:34:00 Billy Corgan? I hope so.
1:34:01 Speaker 02 Maybe more than that, but, um. You know, as, as long as we both can do this together, it's, like I said, it's just this, it's a space unto itself. It's the family place. It's the blood harmony. It's the, um, cause like, your own DNA is also their DNA, you know? So it's a cellular level.
1:34:26 Billy Corgan? But that's why, that's why I brought up Everly's and Bee Gees. There's something there, kinks. There's something there that's so deep that I think the public doesn't understand how intense it must be.
1:34:39 Speaker 02 It's kind of intense.
1:34:40 Billy Corgan? That's what I'm saying. There's a, there's a level of intensity that I don't feel I understand, but I've talked to enough of the people or the families along the way, mostly privately, to get a sense of what does, what did that really feel like?
1:34:52 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:34:53 Billy Corgan? I mean, look at the Everly Brothers, probably the greatest harmony singers ever, who the Beatles idolized. I mean, the ability for them to harmonize Phil and Don.
1:35:02 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:35:02 Billy Corgan? And there was such an intense attraction and repulsion between the two guys over fifty something years.
1:35:09 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:35:10 Billy Corgan? And, and I saw them play once. And of course, you know, you hear the legend of the stories and, and I was watching them and they were so good.
1:35:18 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:35:18 Billy Corgan? At one point, cause you'll appreciate this, cause you sing harmony, they were so good, I thought, I'm just gonna, every time they hit a bum note, I'm just gonna make a note of it because they're not hitting any bum notes. And over a ninety minute show, they hit four bum notes in all those harmonies.
1:35:33 Speaker 02 A tiny bit sharp, tiny bit flat over here.
1:35:35 Billy Corgan? Four out of ninety minutes. And this is when they're like in their fifties, you know what I mean?
1:35:39 Speaker 02 And no pre-record.
1:35:40 Billy Corgan? No, this is just two, two guys. At one point, they did a thing, we would like to sing, you know, we grew up with our parents singing on radio shows. We liked to sing some songs about Old Kentucky and stuff like that. And they did a little portion of the show where they did like ten minutes and they had that weird mic where they would, you know, it was like a, a mic with a U, so they were both could look at each other when they sang. So they did about seven or eight minutes of just acoustic, just the two of them. I mean, it was insane. But when you think of the, the all-chemical dynamic of being from the same, from the same parent, from the same genetic, uh, you know, helix.
1:36:13 Speaker 02 Singing, singing harmony with your sister.
1:36:17 Billy Corgan? And to, and, and to choose a life together.
1:36:19 Speaker 02 Yeah. And like when I, like when you know someone that well, from a D, on a DNA level like that. And you sing harmony together, and I'm singing, for instance, on a song like Dog and Butterfly, I could just look at, watch her sing it and know what to do, what not to do, and exactly on the spot, do it the same. Just on the spot. Because of the way they're breathing, just, you know, how they're singing that particular time. And it's just, it's a pretty cool thing that I feel lucky. Another thing I'm super grateful to have in my life is, you know, that blood harmony.
1:37:04 Speaker 02 And having seen the Beatles and on Ed Sullivan Show, like every other rock person ever did, and just follow that course all the way, all the way through, and have that same course that I'm on today. From that, from when I was nine. That's like insane. Like that doesn't, nobody knows where they're going at the beginning of their life like that. I feel like way too lucky. Like, my parents should have been divorced, you know, we should have been poor, you know, should have never picked up a guitar.
1:37:40 Billy Corgan? You don't want the trauma.
1:37:40 Speaker 02 I should have had all the pain.
1:37:41 Billy Corgan? You don't want the trauma.
1:37:43 Speaker 02 I mean, I had plenty of trauma, believe me.
1:37:45 Billy Corgan? Well, you don't want that trauma, maybe that's.
1:37:46 Speaker 02 But that particular other trauma I never got, never was forced to have, or I was lucky enough to not have.
1:37:54 Billy Corgan? Thank you so much. Lovely talking to you.
1:37:56 Speaker 02 You too.
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