Robby Krieger | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan sits down with legendary Doors guitarist Robby Krieger for an engaging conversation about music, legacy, and the evolving mythology of one of rock's most iconic and shadowy bands. Diving into Krieger's latest musical venture, Robby Krieger and the Soul Savages, and stories from his memoir, Set the Night on Fire. Robby shares songwriting secrets behind classic like "Light My Fire," and navigating creative and personal challenges following Jim Morrison's untimely death. Plus musings over the impact of Oliver Stone’s controversial Doors biopic, and the mystery behind Robbie’s famously stolen guitar. https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:00Speaker 02

  And the movie really is what revamped the interest in the doors.

• 1:06Billy Corgan?

  But you remember even...

• 1:07Speaker 02

  I hate to admit it.

• 1:08Billy Corgan?

  Drugs versus spirituality.

• 1:10Speaker 02

  In the 60s, drugs were spirituality.

• 1:16Billy Corgan?

  I'm surprised, did anyone call you to join their band?

• 1:19Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:20Billy Corgan?

  I mean, you wrote a lot of big hit songs. You'd think somebody would've called you.

• 1:23Speaker 02

  I think people were kind of scared, maybe, you know?

• 1:27Billy Corgan?

  Scared of you?

• 1:31Billy Corgan?

  L.A. can make you crazy. Has L.A. made you crazy, Robbie?

• 1:35Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:36Billy Corgan?

  You still don't, right?

• 1:37Speaker 02

  I grew up here.

• 1:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, right. Okay, let's start here.

• 1:43Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:44Billy Corgan?

  New album?

• 1:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:47Billy Corgan?

  Robbie Krieger and the Soul Savages?

• 1:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49Billy Corgan?

  Now, it's all instrumental?

• 1:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52Billy Corgan?

  Are you, is it like a Booker T in the MGS? Are you trying to bring back kind of the instrumental?

• 1:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's my, my hope is to, to have an instrumental hit like Booker T.

• 2:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  In fact, my, my drummer.

• 2:10Billy Corgan?

  What was it? Soul, Soul Hugger or Green Onions?

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Hip Hugger.

• 2:16Billy Corgan?

  Hip Huggers, thank you.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  Green Onions.

• 2:18Billy Corgan?

  Did you like that music? Did you like Stacks?

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, and that's not what I'm trying to do, but I'm just saying in general to have a.

• 2:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, no, I'm not saying it sounds like that.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, to bring back the.

• 2:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  The instrumental hit record type of deal, you know, so it's fun.

• 2:38Billy Corgan?

  And then, of course, I read this book when it came out, so it's great to talk to you about some of the stuff in the book. Set the Night on Fire?

• 2:47Billy Corgan?

  I really enjoyed this book a lot. We'll talk about that.

• 2:49Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:49Billy Corgan?

  So let's start with the Soul Savages thing.

• 2:53Billy Corgan?

  I saw a funny thing where you said Robbie Krieger and the Soul Savages is a stupid name.

• 3:00Billy Corgan?

  But then I also saw where you said The Doors was a stupid name too.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  Exactly, and so.

• 3:05Billy Corgan?

  So what should the Soul Savages be called?

• 3:07Speaker 02

  And so was The Butts Band.

• 3:09Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  You ever hear about The Butts?

• 3:10Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I, I, I think I read about it in this wonderful book of yours.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. What would I rather have called?

• 3:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:17Speaker 02

  I, that was the one we picked.

• 3:19Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 3:20Speaker 02

  You know, Marco is great at names, so he, he made up about a hundred names.

• 3:25Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 3:26Speaker 02

  And we whittled it down from.

• 3:27Billy Corgan?

  Was it a democratic vote?

• 3:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:30Billy Corgan?

  But it shouldn't be because it's called Robbie Krieger first, you see.

• 3:32Speaker 02

  I know, and I didn't want that.

• 3:34Billy Corgan?

  You should have pulled rank.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  I, well, I really didn't want it to be Robbie Krieger. Yeah, I wanted to be more like a real.

• 3:40Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Group type thing, but, you know, they said, oh, well, you'd get more airplay or something.

• 3:50Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  Love the doors and all that, but then they're gonna think it's gonna sound like the doors.

• 3:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I thought your guitar playing sounded great, great tones.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 4:02Billy Corgan?

  Are you playing an SG?

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Yep, still playing the SG.

• 4:07Billy Corgan?

  I remember, I've seen a bunch of the videos that you posted, did you, your original got lost, right? Or somebody stole it?

• 4:13Speaker 02

  Right, yes, stolen.

• 4:16Billy Corgan?

  Surprised it hasn't surfaced. I'm sure you've seen some of those things where people are finding Paul McCartney's guitar and I can't believe somebody hasn't found your SG.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  I know, I think it must be just sitting somewhere in an attic.

• 4:30Billy Corgan?

  You probably don't know this story, but somebody stole my guitar from a gig in Detroit in 1992 and it was gone for 27 years and I got it back.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Really?

• 4:38Billy Corgan?

  Somebody showed up with it.

• 4:40Speaker 02

  How'd you get it back?

• 4:42Billy Corgan?

  This gentleman contacted me and said, "I think I have your guitar," and I'd heard this before. So I was very skeptical and he sent, obviously, new digital photos of my guitar and there were certain markings that only I would recognize and I knew right away it was my guitar and I thought, "This just can't be."

• 4:57Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 4:58Billy Corgan?

  And the story I was told was, somebody bought it at a garage sale and it was hung on somebody's wall and eventually they came into the basement and they saw it and they said, "That's Billy Corgan's missing guitar." And I don't really believe the story, but all I know is I got my guitar back.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  What kind was it?

• 5:14Billy Corgan?

  A 70s Strat, had a very distinctive sound. You know, when you have a guitar, like that guitar was your guitar, right? And you know that that thing had a certain cut, it this way and it sounded good in this key.

• 5:25Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 5:26Billy Corgan?

  So when you lose that and you go looking for the other guitar and it never quite gets the same thing, it's such a painful process.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Luckily, my guitar wasn't that great. I mean, it was just, it sounded like any other.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  It wasn't even an S G, it was a.

• 5:45Billy Corgan?

  Les Paul Junior Special?

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Junior, I think.

• 5:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  It had the black pickups, you know? And, um, you know, I did the first two albums with that guitar.

• 5:59Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  So it sounded pretty good.

• 6:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  But when somebody stole it, I was kind of happy because, oh, boy, I can get something else now.

• 6:09Billy Corgan?

  Well, I hope they find it. I would buy that guitar if it was.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, we thought we found it a couple of months ago. But it turned out it was not it.

• 6:21Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  But now I've got a guy, my friend Jerry, and he's using those tuning forks or whatever they call.

• 6:31Billy Corgan?

  Dowsing rods?

• 6:32Speaker 02

  Dowsing rods. And he claims that it's here in L.A. somewhere.

• 6:37Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  So we're still looking.

• 6:41Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so if The Doors was a stupid name, what would have been a better name?

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Better name than The Doors? Ah, that's a good question.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 6:53Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 6:54Speaker 02

  I mean.

• 6:55Billy Corgan?

  So was the name Jim's idea or was it somebody else?

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was Jim's idea.

• 7:00Billy Corgan?

  Do you guys have a vote on that one?

• 7:03Speaker 02

  No, in fact, they had named it before I was even in the band.

• 7:08Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  So I had no.

• 7:10Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know that part.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yep, I was the last one in to be inducted into the band.

• 7:18Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  So.

• 7:19Billy Corgan?

  So, fun fact, I was with Linda Ramon, who was Johnny Ramon's widow of the Ramones. And she said, you're the only person the Ramones ever invited on stage, ever.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Really?

• 7:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 7:32Billy Corgan?

  You're the only person who played with the Ramones that wasn't in the Ramones ever. She showed me the clip of you guys playing a Doors song.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember.

• 7:39Billy Corgan?

  Take it as it comes, I think.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. Wow. And that was so weird, because nobody ever plays that song.

• 7:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  As, you know, when you go up, hey, let's do a Doors song.

• 7:53Billy Corgan?

  Roadhouse blues.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's always, I light my fire, Roadhouse blues, love me two times, but that's, that was crazy.

• 8:01Billy Corgan?

  I thought it was pretty cool.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:02Billy Corgan?

  Got your punk bona fides there. So this is a strange way to jump into this, but I'm fascinated because, obviously, you know, Doors mythology is, you have the movie, you have the book, you know, and what I loved about your book, holding up again, is, and you say it very early in the book, I'm just gonna tell the story as I experienced it. Like, I'm really not into the whole mythological part of this whole thing. I'm just gonna talk about the person that I knew and my experience with these other guys.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:32Billy Corgan?

  I love that, and I really, if you're a Doors fan, and I'm a huge Doors fan, it's a real, it feel, you feel like you're in the room without all the extra junk on top of it. Does it make sense to you?

• 8:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I hope so, yeah.

• 8:44Billy Corgan?

  Because, you know, my band's 36 years and going, not continuously, but, and for you, it's been how many years?

• 8:52Speaker 02

  Fifty.

• 8:53Billy Corgan?

  We remember what it was like to be in the living room practicing, you know what I mean? Not the magazine cover part, you know, arguing over hamburger and fries and stuff. It's a different experience when you're in the band as opposed to what people think the band was. And your band particularly probably has more mythology around it than just about any other band ever. And you talk about that. And so does John Densmore in his book. He talks about sort of the Rays puffing up the mythology of the band.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, they, both of their books were kind of, they kind of each put each other down for various reasons.

• 9:31Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's, that's the other part about being a band, is you love and maybe don't love each other, you know?

• 9:36Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 9:38Billy Corgan?

  But this is an interesting way to get into it, because obviously, it's been a long time. So I looked up the date, the gym passed, it was July 3, 1971. So if you could, if you want, I found myself thinking, what did it feel like on July 4, 1971? Did you guys have a meeting? Did you, like, how did you even kind of begin to grapple with what was going on?

• 10:03Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  Well, when we heard that he was, he was gone, we, we didn't believe it, for one thing, because, you know, there was always rumors about, you know, Paul is dead and blah, blah, blah. So, we sent our manager, Bill Sidens, over to France, to Paris, to, you know, to check it out. And unfortunately, he never saw the body. So, you know, we were still thinking, gee, maybe he's,

• 10:48Speaker 02

  maybe he really is just trying to fool everybody.

• 10:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  But after a while, it sunk in and...

• 10:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  And...

• 10:57Billy Corgan?

  The reason I ask is not to be morbid, it's because you guys made the decision to carry on, and you did two more albums.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 11:06Billy Corgan?

  So, I'm more interested in that, which is like, hey, what do we do? We're a great band. You know, we've had all this success, and you guys were a great band. I mean, the way you three played together was legendary, and still...

• 11:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, we were, I mean, you know, so what happened is, when Jim had, had gone to Paris, we, we had continued to, to practice and play almost, you know, every day.

• 11:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  And we, we had come up with a whole bunch of new songs that, you know, were gonna be on the next album.

• 11:44Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  And if Jim liked them.

• 11:49Billy Corgan?

  Right, right.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  And so, you know, Elektra Records, Jack Holsman, he was, he was really cool about the whole thing. And he, he, he says, why don't you guys, you know, put out another record? You know, everybody's gonna want, miss Jim and everything, but, you know...

• 12:16Speaker 02

  In our contract, we had two more albums to go.

• 12:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  So he says, yeah, let's do it, you know, let's keep it going, you know. And.

• 12:28Billy Corgan?

  Did you feel, do you have any reservations, or you felt like, let's just keep going?

• 12:33Speaker 02

  We did have reservations, you know, I mean, you know, it's like, the Stones are going on without Mick Jagger or something like that. And maybe it was a stupid idea, I don't know.

• 12:50Billy Corgan?

  I don't know.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  But I really love some of those songs that are on those albums, so.

• 12:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I think, you know, what struck me in thinking about it this morning, because I knew I was going to interview you, is these days, you see bands carry on with different lead singers, and the public has kind of gotten used to it. Like, if it had happened, if it happened to you today, if you were in that exact situation today, I think, I think people would have said, yeah, you should carry on. Now, obviously, there are some people don't, but even a famous band like Linkin Park, their, their lead singer passed away, Chester, who was a great lead singer. And Linkin Park just came back with, with a new singer, a female. Yeah, it's quite good. What I'm saying is, the, the world seems to have, for lack of a better way to put it,

• 13:40Billy Corgan?

  matured with the idea that if people still want to hear the music, it's better to hear the music and not get caught up in necessarily the personality part of it all.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think you're right.

• 13:50Billy Corgan?

  And, you know, Journey is a stadium band with a singer that they found on YouTube.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 13:57Billy Corgan?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 13:58Speaker 02

  That worked out pretty well.

• 13:58Billy Corgan?

  And I know you guys did tour, like with Ian Asbury, who's somebody I'm very fond of, but like, I think the environment for you would be much more receptive now, where back then, I think it was probably more harsh, like, bands over, right?

• 14:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you know, even then, when Ray and I decided to keep touring, it was pretty well received, you know? It was pretty damn cool. I just wish John had, had come along, but he didn't want to.

• 14:32Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  And.

• 14:34Billy Corgan?

  You're talking about later, when you guys were touring, yeah.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  This was like.

• 14:37Billy Corgan?

  But back to this time, okay, so. First show, three shows in, you know, you guys are totally tweaked as a four-piece. And one of my things about you as a fan is you're one of those rare bands where the four elements together are really, it's the sort of a magical thing that happens when you guys play. And I've listened to countless live recordings. I don't think I've ever heard you guys do a bad gig. And I'm sure I missed a few, but, and I'm not trying to be a fanboy, I'm saying is you guys were really a great live band. So now you've got one missing element. How was that internally? How did it feel? And then how was the crowd with you?

• 15:18Speaker 02

  The crowd was great, you know, they were very cool. Nobody saying, hey, where's Jim?

• 15:24Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 15:25Speaker 02

  No, none of that. And, you know, so Ray and I were left to be the singers.

• 15:34Billy Corgan?

  Right. Who's the better singer? You or Ray? I'm put you on the spot.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  I think Ray was better, probably. But, and then we had this other guy, Bobby Ray, who was rhythm guitar player and singer. And he sang a few of the songs. He was pretty good. But what happened was after the two albums, we decided, hey, maybe we should find a singer.

• 16:07Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  So we talked about Paul McCartney, of course, and Bob Dylan and...

• 16:13Billy Corgan?

  I saw Iggy Pop somewhere.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Iggy Pop, yeah. But then we, for some reason, we decided to go to Europe. Let's go to Europe and find somebody over there. You know, that'll be different.

• 16:26Billy Corgan?

  Sounds very 70s. Like, let's go to Europe and find a singer.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  So we did. We went over there, pretty much moved our whole families over there to London. And we were, you know, trying this guy, that guy. We didn't really get very far. And before Ray kind of...

• 16:58Speaker 02

  Blew the whole thing off.

• 16:59Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 16:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, because Dorothy was pregnant and she was not doing too well. She was, you know, mentally sometimes when you're pregnant, you go crazy.

• 17:13Billy Corgan?

  My wife is currently pregnant, so I am.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  Well, so at that point, it was, okay, the Doors are over.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  And we, you know, John and I were kind of pissed because, you know, we thought we still had some good stuff in us, you know.

• 17:39Billy Corgan?

  How old are you at this point, like?

• 17:40Speaker 02

  Twenty-five-ish.

• 17:41Billy Corgan?

  A little young to have to decide it's over.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And, you know, I think we could have been like a jazz trio, you know? Because, I mean, you know, I mean, you know, the whole idea to going over there was to find another singer, but we never really got close to finding a singer, really, so.

• 18:15Billy Corgan?

  Were you hoping to find somebody that had their own thing and then that would become additive? Like, you weren't trying to necessarily recreate as much as sort of innovate?

• 18:24Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 18:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And when you say that about a jazz trio, what's interesting is the musical language of the Doors was so unique, I can actually kind of hear it. You know what I mean? Where most bands, I would think, well, where does that go? But with you guys, I could see where something would come of it.

• 18:42Speaker 02

  And, I mean, yeah, and some of those songs, like I say, on the two albums were pretty damn good.

• 18:51Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 18:53Billy Corgan?

  So you find yourself, okay, twenty-five-ish, band's done.

• 18:59Billy Corgan?

  What do you say to your wife? You know what I mean? Like, where are we going? Or did you take a year off? I mean, what did you?

• 19:07Speaker 02

  Well, we stayed in London. And John and I decided to form another band.

• 19:17Billy Corgan?

  OK.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  So we came across this guy, Jess Roden. He was one of the guys lined up to maybe be in The Doors. And he was pretty cool. He had some really nice, good songs. And he was really into reggae, which John and I were getting into. And he happened to know this guy, Phil Chen, who was probably the best bass player in London at the time. He was a session guy. He had come from Jamaica and, you know, with a reggae group.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  I forgot the name of it. But they were, you know, a pretty big time reggae band. And they kind of broke up. And then he decided to stay in London and be a session guy. So Jess Roden was buddies with him. So we decided to try him out. And it was great. He was the perfect bass player for our new band. And so we made an album.

• 20:39Billy Corgan?

  What was that called? So what was the band?

• 20:41Speaker 02

  The Butts Band.

• 20:42Billy Corgan?

  That was The Butts Band, OK. I thought, sorry, I thought that came later.

• 20:45Speaker 02

  Talk about a bad name.

• 20:47Billy Corgan?

  Well, not to look backwards, but it might have stifled your commercial upside there.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  I mean, in England, that didn't mean what it means here, really.

• 21:00Billy Corgan?

  Right, but if this is a bad name and The Doors is a bad name, I think The Butts wins the bad name.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  Anyway, we decided to make an album. And we got Bruce Botnick to come over to England. And which he was happy to do. And we started the album at Dynamic. No, what's the name of that studio over there where everybody goes?

• 21:32Billy Corgan?

  Well, there was Island back in the day. There was EMI.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:37Billy Corgan?

  Olympic?

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Olympic.

• 21:39Billy Corgan?

  See, I'd get there eventually.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Olympic Studios. So we did half of it there. And then we decided to go to Jamaica. Because Phil was from Jamaica and he really hadn't seen his family for a long time. And he was so happy to go back there. And Chris Blackwell became friends with us. And he had this great house up there called Strawberry Fields.

• 22:11Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  Strawberry, yeah, I think it was Strawberry Fields. And so he let us stay there. And we recorded the rest of the album at Dynamic Studios. And which was really cool because, you know, all these reggae guys were recording there. Jimmy Cliff. Who didn't have much interest in us.

• 22:42Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  But he was okay. He was a nice guy.

• 22:45Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 22:48Speaker 02

  But Phil had a great time.

• 22:50Billy Corgan?

  So were you thinking, I still have a future in commercial music? Or I just want to be a musician and make a living? I mean, where was your? I mean, you're coming off a pretty big high of success. That's pretty rare. I mean, most people don't. As you know, most people might have one album, two albums. I mean, you guys had five, six albums that all had hits, all had classics.

• 23:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, I mean, you know, as far as I was concerned, and probably John too, we were gonna stick with it.

• 23:25Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  And make, have another band and, and, you know, prove that it wasn't just luck.

• 23:34Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  To have a Jim Morse.

• 23:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 23:37Speaker 02

  And, so what happened was, we, after we finished the album in Jamaica, they all came, the English guys came to stay in L.A. And we decided, you know, we tried to launch the band from L.A. And it didn't really work out very well. The first thing that went wrong was, we were on Elektra Records and,

• 24:12Speaker 02

  who was the guy that was the president of Elektra?

• 24:18Billy Corgan?

  Jack Holtzman?

• 24:19Speaker 02

  No, the one after him.

• 24:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  He was a really not likable guy sometimes.

• 24:27Billy Corgan?

  But is it like a famous name?

• 24:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:29Billy Corgan?

  So, a famous shark?

• 24:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:32Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 24:32Speaker 02

  So he, he listens to the album and, you know, we, we, we really had fun doing this album and had Bruce Spotnick, who's a great engineer.

• 24:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, fantastic.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  And, so, this guy listens to it and he goes, "You know, I think you should redo the album with Tom Dowd." And, you know, stupidly, I, I, I, we should have done it. Just to do something with Tom Dowd would have been cool.

• 25:05Billy Corgan?

  Sure, yeah.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  But I just got all pissed off and, and I had this horrible look on my face, I guess, because, because the guy says,

• 25:16Speaker 02

  "Wow, I guess you don't like that idea. You've got all the excitement of a half-dead worm."

• 25:23Speaker 02

  So when I told that to Phil Chen, from then on, he called me the worm.

• 25:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  So that was my nickname from then on.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  So we said, that, let's just put, we'll go somewhere else. So we went and met with Bob Krasnow. You know who he is?

• 25:43Billy Corgan?

  Of course, yeah.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  So he had, what was his band, uh, company called?

• 25:50Billy Corgan?

  Was he with Columbia or?

• 25:52Speaker 02

  Blue Note.

• 25:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  He took over Blue Note. And, uh, yeah, he had, he had a lot of great people on there, on that record.

• 26:01Billy Corgan?

  Was anybody pushing back in America against the band name?

• 26:05Speaker 02

  No.

• 26:07Billy Corgan?

  Really? I found that.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  Didn't seem to bother them.

• 26:09Billy Corgan?

  They hated my band name.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  Really?

• 26:11Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah, they tried to get us to change our band name fifty times.

• 26:16Speaker 02

  It's not that bad.

• 26:17Billy Corgan?

  It worked out.

• 26:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you guys just refused to change, right?

• 26:23Billy Corgan?

  Yes, sir.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  Good for you.

• 26:26Billy Corgan?

  It's not so much that I love the band name. It's that people always remembered the band name. It was one of those weird names. If you said it once, no one ever forgot it. It had a kind of a lucky thing to it where if you've just heard it, people, I would see people six months later and they would know the name of the band. It was just, you know, it's good marketing. It's just like, it's stuck.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 26:46Billy Corgan?

  But back to you. So, uh, so the launch goes not so good.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we had this, you know, we had our manager, Bill Sidens, who had managed the Doors for, for the past, you know, year or so. Originally, he was our roadie.

• 27:05Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  And, uh,

• 27:09Speaker 02

  for one reason or another, he couldn't get much lined up.

• 27:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  To, for, at least not enough. So the, the English guys got. Oh, and they bored and stuff and they decided to go back to England. So, John and I stupidly reformed the Busman, which, and there's still some good stuff on that second album. We had this guy, Michael Stahl, who was the singer. He was actually a really good singer.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  And we had, we found this bass player, Carl Rucker, who is called Slick. And he was a really good bass player.

• 28:02Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  And then, and we had this girl keyboard player, Alex Richman. And so, we did, we did a couple of minor tours with that band and it didn't really go anywhere.

• 28:18Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  So, that was it. John decided to become an actor.

• 28:25Billy Corgan?

  Of course, he won a bunch of Academy Awards.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  And I...

• 28:30Billy Corgan?

  I'm sorry, with all due respect to John, I had that happen in my band. I had a band member quit and become an actor, so I'm a little salty about the whole idea. It's like, you know, because I said to this person, "Have you ever acted before?" And the person said, "No."

• 28:46Speaker 02

  Who was that?

• 28:47Billy Corgan?

  But now I'm gonna be an actor, you know?

• 28:50Speaker 02

  Who was that?

• 28:51Billy Corgan?

  That was the female bass player in the original band.

• 28:55Billy Corgan?

  She just announced somewhere in the end of the 90s that she was gonna be an actor, even though she'd never acted.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  Well, I guess...

• 29:06Billy Corgan?

  Somehow Mickey Rourke's connected to that story, but we'll tell that story for another time.

• 29:13Billy Corgan?

  So he's an actor.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:16Billy Corgan?

  Ray is doing like Karmena Barana or whatever. He was doing like.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  He did acts.

• 29:24Billy Corgan?

  Oh, that's right. That's right. So remember, he did he did that album where it was like about a dung beetle pushing it across the universe or something. It's right. It's so it's so behind the music. It's like this guy quits to be an actor. This guy's doing the musical about the dung beetle.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  And so I just started doing instrumental albums.

• 29:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  And.

• 29:52Billy Corgan?

  Can I can I stop you there? Because I'm because I'm always curious, because everybody likes this part of the story, you know, the shiny, the shiny, you know, when you were on Ed Sullivan and all this type of stuff. I'm just as interested when because I've experienced it myself when, especially in this town in Los Angeles, like, did you see people treating you differently? Were people, your friends no longer your friends? Did you go through that whole weirdness?

• 30:19Speaker 02

  Not really, not really. I mean, people that were my friends were mostly not really because of the doors, you know.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  It was, you know, because I was a golfer, so I had a lot of golfing friends and it didn't really bother me. In fact, I just kind of shut off the doors. I said, OK, that's over.

• 30:49Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  I'm never never going to have that type of thing again.

• 30:54Billy Corgan?

  Sentimental about it? Were you like, hey, that was amazing. And now I just got to go on to something else like because that's a curious thing. You know, not many people experienced your success.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:04Billy Corgan?

  And then. Like, one day you wake up and it's, your band isn't your band anymore. You soldier on, you find yourself in this unique situation, you're in your mid twenties. You know? It's an interesting perspective, and I guess I'm taking it more like a spiritual point, you know? Like, life presents us with really unique challenges.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 31:24Billy Corgan?

  You've always struck me as a pretty down-to-earth person, so you're saying my friends were my friends. That makes sense to me, you know? You weren't necessarily caught up in the LA bull-

• 31:33Speaker 02

  Right, exactly.

• 31:34Billy Corgan?

  So you leaned back into what you knew, which is-

• 31:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, and back then, it really wasn't like today if you're, you know, in a band and it's- and you're known, you know, people go and play in other bands and-

• 31:53Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  Do all the- it wasn't really like that back then.

• 31:57Billy Corgan?

  Didn't- I'm surprised, did anyone call you to join their band?

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Um, no, not really. I think people-

• 32:05Billy Corgan?

  I mean, you wrote a lot of big hit songs, you'd think somebody would've called you.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  I think people were kind of, uh, kind of scared, maybe, you know?

• 32:13Billy Corgan?

  Scared of you?

• 32:14Speaker 02

  It was just a little weird, you know?

• 32:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah?

• 32:17Speaker 02

  And, yeah, that's, that's how I saw it. I did, I did go out and tour with Eric Burden and-

• 32:26Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  Some stuff like that, but, um, you know?

• 32:33Billy Corgan?

  I mean, you're, you know, we all look back on our twenties and we realize we're in a sort of a particular type of prime.

• 32:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I, and then, you know, I had a kid, we had a family and stuff.

• 32:47Billy Corgan?

  I know you've been with your wife since nineteen seventy-two?

• 32:50Speaker 02

  Fifty years.

• 32:51Billy Corgan?

  That's amazing.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:53Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's part of it, though, right? You lean back on your relationship, your family, your-

• 32:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, um, so-

• 33:05Speaker 02

  I would say, um, what were we talking about?

• 33:10Billy Corgan?

  Well, no, it's just, it's just the idea of, you know, America likes its shiny stuff. But I'm just as interested in the stuff that affects us as musicians, right? Like, we both had the experience of a lot of success, and then that success casts a particular shadow. And what you do with that shadow is, like, in your case, you've always just played music.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:33Billy Corgan?

  You could have quit, you could have started, you know, an aquarium, you know?

• 33:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, my, my idea was to always get better.

• 33:41Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  As a guitar player.

• 33:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  And, um, you know, sometimes it took a wrong turn here and there, I would say. But I think, uh, if you get this album, you, you'll see where I'm at now.

• 34:00Billy Corgan?

  This album, yeah. Well, what's amazing is-

• 34:03Speaker 02

  I think I've improved as a musician.

• 34:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, your playing is as strong as ever, and it's definitely you playing.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think people-

• 34:13Billy Corgan?

  Only you play like you, which is-

• 34:15Speaker 02

  Wouldn't recognize my, my-

• 34:18Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's what I'm saying, as a fellow guitar player, that's the greatest compliment. It's like, when I listen to this, it's you playing, I can tell it's you.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  That's cool.

• 34:26Billy Corgan?

  Your voice is in the chords and the notes, and even the way you hit the pick, you know?

• 34:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, you're the same way.

• 34:32Billy Corgan?

  Well, thank you, I appreciate that.

• 34:33Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 34:34Billy Corgan?

  Okay, let's jump into the deep end of the pool, which is this incredible Doris mythology, right? So, 1978, you release "American Prayer," which was Jim's recordings, mostly of poetry, and then you, musical backing and-

• 34:51Speaker 02

  Right. And, you know, he, he had, uh, recorded this poetry, about an hour's worth, uh-

• 35:00Billy Corgan?

  On a birthday, right?

• 35:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's his last birthday.

• 35:03Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  And-

• 35:05Billy Corgan?

  God bless, right?

• 35:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. And he, he, he had planned on, on having music, um, with it, but he wanted, uh, what do you call, kind of, uh-

• 35:22Billy Corgan?

  Free jazz?

• 35:23Speaker 02

  No, not jazz at all, but more like classical.

• 35:29Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  Have you ever heard of Fred Miro?

• 35:32Billy Corgan?

  Uh-uh, no.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  Well, he was, I think he's still around. He was the guy that Jim wanted to.

• 35:40Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  To, and I don't even know if he ever got around to doing any of it. But that never happened. And luckily Jim had put the poetry down on tape. And about 10 years later, John Haney, who was the engineer who did that, I ran into him and I said, hey, whatever happened with that poetry thing?

• 36:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  And so he played it for me.

• 36:20Billy Corgan?

  So you didn't even know it existed? Oh, okay.

• 36:22Speaker 02

  I knew it existed, but I didn't know what the hell was going on with it. You know, I don't know why we never asked about it before. But anyway, so he plays it for me and I just said, wow, we could put music to this and it would be cool.

• 36:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  And really it came out, it's really one of my favorite Doors albums.

• 36:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  Really. And we still, we actually play some of the songs from it today.

• 36:57Billy Corgan?

  Oh, wow.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, you probably don't know this, but when you guys put out the box set around 2000 or so, remember you did that?

• 37:06Speaker 02

  Which one?

• 37:06Billy Corgan?

  It was like a four CD box set.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 37:10Billy Corgan?

  I can't remember what it was called, The Doors Unlocked or something. Anyway, I knew Ray a little bit, so I sent Ray a message because I love the box set. And what I loved about it was... It wasn't just, here's the best songs and a couple unreleased tracks. It was like a live cut, Jim doing poetry live, you guys jamming, rehearsal tape.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 37:36Billy Corgan?

  It was a really interesting, and what I wrote Ray in the note was I was like, I love that, as a Doors fan, I thought I knew the band, but when I listen to this, now I understand how you guys see the band. Does it make sense to you, the way I'm saying it to you?

• 37:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 37:56Billy Corgan?

  It's like, this is the band you were actually in, not my version of the band as a fan. This is how the Doors saw the Doors.

• 38:02Speaker 02

  Oh, wait a minute, what year did that?

• 38:05Billy Corgan?

  About 2000, I feel, somewhere around there.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  Oh, I gotta check that out.

• 38:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it was a box set. So it was really beautifully done. And I don't know who curated, and I'm sure you guys had a lot to do with it, but it felt very personal, and I was struck by it, because I was the guy who'd buy every box set that would come out, whether it was Motown or whatever. I just love unreleased tracks, and I'm just one of those guys, collector type, right? So after I sent Ray the note, he wanted to talk to me, and so we sat on the phone for like an hour and just talked about his version of the Doors from inside. You know, he kind of gave me that insight of like, the way you guys saw the band. And it was such a gift to hear him explain it, because like I said, when you're in the band, it's different. Fans decide what version of the band they want to believe in, but

• 38:54Billy Corgan?

  when you're in the band, you have your own version of the band. And I hear that especially with you guys, because you have such a strong musical identity.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  Too bad he didn't record that conversation, right?

• 39:06Billy Corgan?

  It would be nice. It would be nice. He was quite nice to me as a fellow Chicagoan, you know?

• 39:11Speaker 02

  Oh, right.

• 39:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Okay, so.

• 39:15Billy Corgan?

  I guess the, you know, the whole thing, American Prayer came out in 1978 and I think the Danny Sugarman book came out, what, 81, somewhere around there? No One Here Gets Out Alive, the infamous book. So somewhere in there, because I bought that book when it came out and I read it, so imagine I'm 14 years old and I'm reading, you know?

• 39:35Speaker 02

  You're 14 at the time?

• 39:36Billy Corgan?

  At the time, yeah. And I read it cover to cover multiple times and that's because of that book, that's why I started reading Kerouac and Jean-Paul Sartre and Aldous Huxley and William Burroughs and...

• 39:49Speaker 02

  Cool.

• 39:50Billy Corgan?

  So that part of your history, Jim's interest in those writers, and then of course, you know, the musical influences, The Doors, it set me off on this kind of very particular path, which had a lot of influence on me, so thank you for that.

• 40:03Speaker 02

  So how old were you?

• 40:05Billy Corgan?

  I'm like 14, 15 years old. I mean, not many kids at 14 years old are reading Kierkegaard and, you know what I mean?

• 40:13Speaker 02

  Jim was.

• 40:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, well, God bless, right? So that's always been my personal affinity for Jim. I certainly loved Jim as a singer and a frontman. I didn't ever say you guys live that way, but on video, but my real connection with him is he introduced me to something very personal.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 40:28Billy Corgan?

  Okay, that's cool, right? So somewhere in there, 78, 81, somewhere in there, now here comes, let's call it Doors 2.0, The Myth, The Lizard King, you know what I mean? And you talk in your book, great book by the way, you talk in your book, very, as you are here, very plain spoken about, you know, I know this thing's going on, it wasn't quite The Doors that I was in, but okay, you know, it's not a bad thing, people are interested in us. Did that, that resurgence of interest in your work, was that surprising or did you feel it coming like?

• 41:09Speaker 02

  No, I mean, I, you know, after we broke up, you know, in Europe, I thought, that's it, nobody will ever care about The Doors anymore, nobody gives a...

• 41:23Speaker 02

  And I was, you know, and because of the book, Danny's book, that's, that was, I think, an impetus to the movie.

• 41:36Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  And the movie really is what revamped the

• 41:41Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  interest in The Doors.

• 41:43Billy Corgan?

  But you remember even

• 41:43Speaker 02

  I hate to admit it, but

• 41:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but that's no, but I guess, I would say there's no shame in that game because here I am at 14 and I'm caring about The Doors in a way that goes beyond light my fire and break on through, right? I'm suddenly

• 41:57Speaker 02

  Did you see the movie?

• 41:58Billy Corgan?

  I did, I did. I even got to know Val Kilmer a little bit, somewhere around that era.

• 42:05Billy Corgan?

  I knew that, let's, I don't know how to put it in a way that's not any more Chicago than, I knew that part of the movie was just movie making bullshit. But

• 42:17Billy Corgan?

  if at the end of the day, it turns a whole generation on to want to listen to how good you guys, great you guys are, were, I don't see that as

• 42:25Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly.

• 42:26Billy Corgan?

  Because you guys are great band. You're one of the only bands I could say where I can listen every record and every record really has something for me as a fan. And I'm not talking about a couple of songs, like I like every record. I do, honestly.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  Well, thanks.

• 42:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Huge influence on my work, so in, in many ways, obviously not just the literature, just the, the sense that a band can create a mystique that's very personal.

• 42:54Billy Corgan?

  If I would point to anything that you guys had a huge influence on me, it's like, you can build your own world. And The Doors did that. Because The Doors sound like The Doors, it's like, and, and if you try to cover Doors songs, and I've covered Doors songs, you can't quite get the same vibe. It's like the spooky mystery, little bit Kurt Vile and, you know, mixed with Chicago blues and

• 43:15Speaker 02

  There's so many Doors cover bands, you know?

• 43:18Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  And, yeah, you're, you're right, none of them really

• 43:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because it's the way, your musical language is so particular. And, you know, if we were to, if we were to design The Doors on paper, you'd say, there's no way this band's going to sell any records.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  You did some Doors songs?

• 43:38Billy Corgan?

  You're jumping to my end, but we'll get there. So, okay, here's Robbie Krieger in 1982 or whatever. The Doors mythology starts to take off, you know what I mean? You know, obviously, things start to change. Now, I think it was John who talks in his book. Maybe I could be wrong because I've read all your books. But this idea that Ray starts to really lean into Jim the Shaman. And there was that great, I don't know if you ever saw it. There was a Great Onion headline once where it said, "Ray Mangzarek Goes For Five Minutes Without Calling Jim A Shaman." You ever see that? It's hysterical. And they had fake quotes from Ray saying, "You know, I just forgot to call him a Shaman for a couple of minutes." But I remember listening to Ray doing interviews in the 80s.

• 44:23Billy Corgan?

  And he was like, "Jim's a Shaman and a Mystic." Yeah, I didn't even know what a Shaman was. But I'm sorry, and you talk about it in your book. But what was your perspective on all that? Were you kind of cool with it? Did you think it was a bit cheesy? Or, you know?

• 44:39Speaker 02

  You know, I thought it was a bit cheesy. But I couldn't blame Ray because really, it was his whole life, you know? He's the one that discovered Jim. He's the one that, you know, started the Doors, really. And he wanted to keep it going. You know, when Jim died, it was the end of that world for him. And he, so he was really just trying to keep it all going.

• 45:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  And I can't blame him because, you know, he, like you say, the Doors were so different. And he wanted people to know, you know? Especially young people.

• 45:32Billy Corgan?

  What I loved about your book is you talk about like Jim hanging out in your kitchen, talking to your parents. It's so beautiful to me because, again, that's the Jim you knew. You know, not the Lizard King in the leather pants, but like this, this young guy, obviously very intelligent. But the personal aspect of you talking about like your father's influence and helping the band and something really beautiful about that.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:59Billy Corgan?

  Could you just talk about that a little bit? Because obviously, I had the benefit of reading the book.

• 46:05Speaker 02

  Well, you know, Jim didn't really have his parents in his life.

• 46:16Speaker 02

  I think it was because he didn't want to embarrass them, you know?

• 46:20Billy Corgan?

  Because his dad was like an admiral.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, dad was a real.

• 46:24Billy Corgan?

  Military guy.

• 46:25Speaker 02

  Straight, straight up guy. And his mom was kind of weird too. But, um, so I think he kind of, you know, I was lucky. I had the, the, the, uh, nice upbringing, you know, family type thing. Without having to please my, my parents that much.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  You know, when I became interested in, in music, they were, they were just happy that I was interested in anything, you know, something. So, you know, most, a lot of parents would have said, oh, that's no good. You're going to get into drugs and.

• 47:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  And they were right.

• 47:21Billy Corgan?

  But, sorry, just to steer you back, because I'm so, I think this is the sweetest part of the story. It's like, you know, you guys, early twenties, literally hanging out in the Krieger kitchen.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:32Billy Corgan?

  There's no doors, there's no mystique, you know? Or if there is a doors, it's, it's just another band amongst a thousand bands out here at the time.

• 47:39Speaker 02

  Right, right. But, uh, you know, Jim was, he was, you know, I think being brought up in the South.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  I think he was, he was very polite and very, you know?

• 47:58Speaker 02

  Just, that's how he was brought up.

• 48:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  And my parents really liked him a lot. And, and he, and he liked hanging around my house because it was, it was something he didn't have.

• 48:13Billy Corgan?

  When's the first time in your mind that you saw that Jim had this other ability or, you know what I'm saying, it's like, he wasn't just another guy who could sing or something, you know what I mean? Like, the first time you found yourself going, oh, this guy's really got an interesting gear here.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  Well, that was, even, it was before I met him. You know, you know, John had gotten into the group by this time. And he, he would tell me about him.

• 48:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 48:45Speaker 02

  How the, how that he came up with the name and all this stuff.

• 48:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  And the first six or eight songs that they, they came up with

• 48:57Speaker 02

  were great lyrics, you know, stuff that I, I'd never heard.

• 49:02Billy Corgan?

  So you heard about this guy before you kind of?

• 49:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  And the fact that he had a, a record deal with Columbia Records.

• 49:10Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  You know.

• 49:11Billy Corgan?

  Is that where some of those early demos are from, that?

• 49:14Speaker 02

  Um.

• 49:15Billy Corgan?

  Like, they did some kind of demo or?

• 49:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, the Doors demo, that was before that. And that's, that's how they got the deal at Columbia.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  I think.

• 49:26Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was before Columbia. See, they, at that time, Ray was buddies with this guy,

• 49:37Speaker 02

  Dick, Dick Bach.

• 49:39Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 49:40Speaker 02

  You ever heard that name?

• 49:42Billy Corgan?

  Doesn't ring a bell.

• 49:43Speaker 02

  He had a label called World Pacific.

• 49:46Billy Corgan?

  Okay, that was, The Byrds were originally, or Chris Hillman.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  Really?

• 49:51Billy Corgan?

  Chris Hillman before The Byrds was signed to World Pacific.

• 49:54Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 49:55Billy Corgan?

  Which is how The Door, I'm sorry, not The Byrds, different band. The Byrds ended up doing all their early demos there with World Pacific.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 50:02Billy Corgan?

  That's kind of the, so he was kind of this weird, did Rabieshanker, right? World Pacific?

• 50:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, World Pacific did all, all the Indian stuff.

• 50:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  And that's, so that's why Ray loved that kind of stuff. So he became friends with Dick Bach and so they got to record at World Pacific.

• 50:25Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  That was the Doors demo before I was in the band. And it was.

• 50:34Speaker 02

  It was pretty cool. They had, uh, they had this girl bass player.

• 50:40Speaker 02

  Not Carol Kay. Who claims that she did it.

• 50:44Billy Corgan?

  Right. Well, I knew somebody who was a session bassist back in the sixties and he would argue, he would get, tell me that he was still mad at Carol because Carol was taking credit for songs that he played on.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Really?

• 50:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Like, who's that?

• 50:59Billy Corgan?

  His name was Mark Tool and he played with the Electric Prunes. But he ended up, after the Prunes blew up.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  The Prunes? My buddy played with them.

• 51:09Billy Corgan?

  Cause-

• 51:10Speaker 02

  Billy Wolf.

• 51:11Billy Corgan?

  Dave Haszer, I think his name. He was a, Dave Haszinger or something. He had produced the, some of the Stone stuff.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 51:18Billy Corgan?

  Well, he did one of those deals with the Prunes. He signed them out of a garage when they were seventeen. They weren't even old enough to sign the contract. They had to get their parents to sign off on it. But when he signed them, he signed them to his production company. So, at some point, he replaced all the Electric Prunes with a completely different band. Because they wouldn't do what he wanted to do. So by eighteen or nineteen, he's out of a band that's already had hit songs and his band trundles on with other people. It was some crazy situation.

• 51:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:47Billy Corgan?

  But he went on to do, be a session guy. He was like, kind of, part of that, like, the later version of the Wrecking Crew guys.

• 51:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 51:54Billy Corgan?

  And he would do Sinatra sessions and all this stuff. And he would get mad. He'd say, Carol's taking credit for songs I played on that were hits.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  Well, for some reason, she told people that she played bass on Light My Fire.

• 52:07Speaker 02

  Which I know she didn't because-

• 52:08Billy Corgan?

  You were there.

• 52:11Speaker 02

  It was-

• 52:11Billy Corgan?

  And you wrote it.

• 52:12Speaker 02

  It was a guy called Larry Nectal.

• 52:15Billy Corgan?

  Who was part of the Wrecking Crew.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 52:16Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 52:18Speaker 02

  Maybe she thought she did because, you know, she-

• 52:21Billy Corgan?

  Not a bad thing to take credit for.

• 52:24Speaker 02

  She played on a lot of, a lot of stuff in those days.

• 52:28Billy Corgan?

  So this band kind of comes together. And I'm struck because, you know, I'm, I'm an obsessive type of person. So, there's some very early clips of you guys on television, probably when the album first comes out.

• 52:41Billy Corgan?

  Doris kind, uh, Jim's kind of wearing stripy pants. He doesn't quite look like Lizard King Jim yet. And then there's clips from you guys like six months later. Where it's like you guys almost look like a completely different band. So I'm kind of curious about that period of time because. If I if I see those early clips of you guys, kind of look like a nerdy. And from the valley. Trying to be a bit psychedelic. And six months later, you look like the doors that everybody knows, you know?

• 53:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, things move fast.

• 53:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, well, that's what you were in this incredible environment, the Sunset Strip, and everybody's doing house shows and.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:17Billy Corgan?

  Because you guys, there was some club you were kind of a resident band at for a while, right?

• 53:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, London Fog.

• 53:22Billy Corgan?

  Right, London Fog. How you were playing how many nights a week type thing?

• 53:26Speaker 02

  Every night, pretty much.

• 53:28Billy Corgan?

  Really? And how many sets?

• 53:30Speaker 02

  Um, at least two, maybe more.

• 53:33Billy Corgan?

  And that's where some of the jams were born because you just fill in time and.

• 53:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And then we from there, we moved to the Whiskey.

• 53:41Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 53:41Speaker 02

  And did the same thing there, pretty much.

• 53:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  And then we. Uh, we would go to New York and played at this club called Andine's.

• 53:54Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 53:55Speaker 02

  And, uh. There we would play four sets a night.

• 53:59Billy Corgan?

  Was Andine collect connected to the Velvet Underground world? Am I crazy about that?

• 54:03Speaker 02

  Um. Uh, not so much, not so much. They they they kind of specialized in having bands from LA and.

• 54:11Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 54:11Speaker 02

  California come out.

• 54:13Billy Corgan?

  You remind me of a funny memory. One night I was driving down the Sunset Strip. And. We were driving past the Whiskey. And and I've played there a few times and I said to the person I was driving with, stop. And they said, why? And I said, I have to go in there. I just had this strong feeling. So I jumped out of the car and the person went to park the car. The doorman recognized me, said, come on in. And it was a Doors tribute band. Right? And I walk in and as I literally as I walk in, the band's starting to play the end.

• 54:50Billy Corgan?

  It was the strangest thing. It was like God pushed me out of the car and said, so I got to have this weird, obviously it wasn't you guys, but they did.

• 54:57Speaker 02

  When was this?

• 54:59Billy Corgan?

  Twenty years ago. It's just a weird, like, get out of the car, go in the club, and the band, and you know, the guys dressed like Jim and doing the voice, and I got as close as I would ever get to seeing you guys play like that. It's a funny, funny story. Um, we don't have to belabor the whole, because, you know, like, like, the Doors mythology, the 60s Sunset Strip mythology has been way over, overblown, too. But I'm curious, from a musician point of view, what were some of the bands that you liked at the time that were playing around town?

• 55:31Speaker 02

  Um, well, I liked Love, Arthur Lee and Love.

• 55:38Billy Corgan?

  Super talented guy.

• 55:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. And...

• 55:42Billy Corgan?

  They were, they were on Elektra, too, right?

• 55:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, they were on Elektra before us.

• 55:47Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  And they were, they helped us get on Elektra.

• 55:50Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 55:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:51Billy Corgan?

  That's cool.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  Um, Buffalo Springfield.

• 55:55Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 55:55Speaker 02

  We played a lot of gigs with them.

• 55:58Billy Corgan?

  Did you ever think they would turn out to what they turned out to later? You know, I mean, they, they went on to have this other crazy success. Did you see it then, or no? Were they just another good band?

• 56:08Speaker 02

  I thought, I thought, I thought they would be big. Yeah. And, um, we did a lot of stuff with the Airplane. Um, you know, when we'd go to San Francisco, we'd play with them a lot. And the Dead, and all those guys.

• 56:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:27Speaker 02

  Um, and who was the guy who was kind of blind?

• 56:36Billy Corgan?

  San Francisco guy?

• 56:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:38Billy Corgan?

  Was he a blues guy?

• 56:39Speaker 02

  Uh, no, it was kind of, it was rock.

• 56:43Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 56:44Speaker 02

  Um, shit. Steppenwolf.

• 56:47Billy Corgan?

  Oh, he was blind?

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:49Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know that.

• 56:50Speaker 02

  Not totally, but he...

• 56:51Billy Corgan?

  Couldn't see?

• 56:53Speaker 02

  Kind of like Edgar Winter.

• 56:54Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 56:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:55Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know that.

• 56:58Billy Corgan?

  Grace Slick talks in her book about sleeping with Jim at some point.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  Really?

• 57:03Billy Corgan?

  I don't know if you know that. She goes, she goes in a lot of detail, let's just put it that way.

• 57:06Speaker 02

  Wow, I never read that. Gotta check that out.

• 57:15Billy Corgan?

  There's some story I heard and you can confirm it or not, but like when you guys did Break On Through, there's like 140 takes, or is that, is there, is that one of those mythological concepts?

• 57:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know how many takes, but it was nowhere near one for, you know, that was the first album.

• 57:36Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 57:37Speaker 02

  And one of the first songs we did. So I'd say we'd be lucky to do three takes.

• 57:44Billy Corgan?

  Okay. And this is live vocals? Or would you do an overdub vocals?

• 57:49Speaker 02

  Probably overdub vocals.

• 57:51Billy Corgan?

  But Jim would sing live when you guys would cut?

• 57:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, he'd sing with us and then if it was good enough, he'd keep it.

• 57:58Billy Corgan?

  But on later work, there's a lot of stuff where he would sing live, like LA Woman Times, or there was overdubs too.

• 58:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, a lot on LA Woman. A lot of it on the third album. Five to One was live vocal.

• 58:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, great vocal. We tried to cover that, by the way, too.

• 58:22Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah?

• 58:23Billy Corgan?

  We never could quite nail it.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  You have to sound like you're drunk.

• 58:25Billy Corgan?

  I can't drink, I'm allergic to alcohol, so maybe that's the problem.

• 58:29Speaker 02

  Really?

• 58:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah, I just can't drink and I have children, so I always, my joke is always, I wish I could drink, because I have children. I have young children, that's the other part. As I said before, you guys are one of those unique bands where I can't imagine the band without one of you. There's only a few bands where it's like, The Beatles come to mind, Led Zeppelin comes to mind, where it's like, without one of you, I wouldn't be into the band. It's the communication between the four of you. Like Jimmy Chamberlain, the drummer for The Pumpkins, we were talking one time about John's drumming, and...

• 59:10Billy Corgan?

  I think we were trying to get a certain feeling and I said, can you get a little bit more of that Doris feeling? And he said, well, if you listen to John's hi-hat, he's always swinging the hi-hat even when he's playing in 4-4. There's almost always a little bit of a shuffle in the hi-hat. You know, so even when John's playing a straight beat, this is from Pumpkin's Brain, but there's a little bit of swing in there.

• 59:33Billy Corgan?

  You know, you mostly played finger picking, right? Am I crazy?

• 59:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 59:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I always finger.

• 59:40Billy Corgan?

  And I know you guys would use bassists on the records, but I love listening to you guys live because there's something about the rhythmic interplay between Ray's left and right hands.

• 59:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, there was a number of the songs on first and second album were just Ray playing piano, bass.

• 59:59Billy Corgan?

  Right. Would a lot of those songs be written and kind of come out of jams? Or would you guys work as a four-piece or you guys worked as a three-piece a lot and then Jim would come in and we'd say, we got this?

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  Oh, all different kinds of ways, you know? But usually, I mean, the first, those first songs on the Doris demo, those were, those songs were just, came into Jim's mind. He could hear them, like, you know? Yeah, it was like.

• 1:00:35Billy Corgan?

  Would he sing melodies and you guys would try to?

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:38Billy Corgan?

  Interesting.

• 1:00:39Speaker 02

  And, I mean, well, I wasn't in the band yet.

• 1:00:41Billy Corgan?

  Oh, right, right, okay.

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  So that's, so we ended up redoing most of those songs.

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  Because, you know, I hate to say it, but I'm, when I was added, it really helped the songs.

• 1:01:02Billy Corgan?

  Well, he loved your blues-ish kind of, is that myth or is that reality?

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, I mean, you know, Ray was the blues to the hill. You know, he grew up in Chicago and all that. I was, I was more. You know, I love blues, but you know, I liked Indian music.

• 1:01:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:24Speaker 02

  Lots of all kinds of music.

• 1:01:26Billy Corgan?

  Guitar player talk, but when I, sorry, it's, I should have been in my articulate, but the way you play blues is only your way of playing the blues. But I, I registered as blues, but it's like you're, it's like if I listen to Albert King, he plays a particular way. When you play blues, you play a very particular way. So it didn't come out of my mouth right, but it's like, that's what I mean. He loved the way you played the blues.

• 1:01:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:47Billy Corgan?

  Better way to put it.

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:01:49Billy Corgan?

  Especially slide and kind of the atmospheric type of stuff.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, slide especially.

• 1:02:00Billy Corgan?

  What would be like a sneaky guitar influence of yours that we wouldn't necessarily hear? Does that make sense? Like somebody that, if you said, I really like this guy's playing, but you wouldn't necessarily hear it in my playing. Every guitar player's got that sneaky influence, right?

• 1:02:18Speaker 02

  I guess so. I mean, you know, I liked Bloomfield a lot.

• 1:02:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay. My dad saw Bloomfield play once, said blew his mind. He saw him at Aragon Ballroom and, you know, somewhere in the sixties. Said Bloomfield came out with a little amp, put it on the chair and he said he couldn't believe what this guy was getting out of the amp.

• 1:02:40Speaker 02

  The Aragon Ballroom?

• 1:02:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I think back then it was called the Electric Playground or one of those sixties names, you know?

• 1:02:46Speaker 02

  Where's that?

• 1:02:48Billy Corgan?

  Aragon Ballroom?

• 1:02:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:49Billy Corgan?

  It's north of Chicago. It was an old dance ballroom that turned into a rock venue. I'm not sure you guys ever played there. I remember whenever I saw you guys listed in Chicago type stuff, it was always like Universal Amphitheater. If you remember that venue, it was a total hole, but.

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  I'm trying to remember who I saw at the Aragon Ballroom.

• 1:03:10Billy Corgan?

  Here's a good one I have on my list.

• 1:03:11Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:03:12Billy Corgan?

  Drugs versus spirituality. I don't know what that means other than it sounds good.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  Well, I think, you know, when we, in the 60s, drugs were spirituality.

• 1:03:30Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:03:30Speaker 02

  You know, that's what we used them for.

• 1:03:33Billy Corgan?

  Right. So was it more of an LSD band, a weed band? You know what I mean? Like, we were more of an LSD band.

• 1:03:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, by the time I got in the band, it was, it was on the tail end of LSD.

• 1:03:52Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  And so when I was doing acid, it was before the Doors. And that's, that's kind of how I met John, was we had this, this friend, we both went to the high school, West LA, and we used to kind of, we used to get LSD like every weekend.

• 1:04:24Billy Corgan?

  Is this when it was legal?

• 1:04:27Billy Corgan?

  Ever was legal up until a certain point?

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  I guess so. Yeah, I think it was. And then we would get morning glory seeds.

• 1:04:37Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:04:38Speaker 02

  That was legal.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  And peyote.

• 1:04:46Speaker 02

  But...

• 1:04:46Billy Corgan?

  So this is all pre-Doors?

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, pretty much. And then, you know, I was still doing it once in a while.

• 1:04:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:53Speaker 02

  And I did do it with Jim a number of times for shows.

• 1:05:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I've had that experience as well. It's interesting. It's like, what key am I in?

• 1:05:09Speaker 02

  I remember this one show we did in Tucson, I think, or Phoenix. And it was in this weird place. It was like, the ceiling came down like that. It was a horrible sound.

• 1:05:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:27Speaker 02

  And they had this, this guy that played the second act was an Elvis impersonator.

• 1:05:38Billy Corgan?

  And you guys are on LSD?

• 1:05:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:39Billy Corgan?

  Oh my God.

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  It was weird.

• 1:05:41Billy Corgan?

  Isn't it amazing when you take LSD, like, that's when the Elvis impersonator shows up? It's like the timing is...

• 1:05:48Speaker 02

  And then, um, and, and, and right, right around the first show we did, first show we did was Ray's dad's company party. He, he worked for Hughes Aircraft.

• 1:06:06Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:06:07Speaker 02

  And Ray got, got, did too much acid or something. He, he was wasted. He couldn't, didn't know what he was doing. And, uh.

• 1:06:19Billy Corgan?

  This is the first gig?

• 1:06:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And, and so that, that's when Ray quit acid, pretty much.

• 1:06:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  And, you know, Jim would still do it and I would still do it. But, uh, you know, it was kind of going on out, going out. I, I wish it would have stuck around longer so it would have avoided liquor.

• 1:06:46Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:06:47Speaker 02

  Cause you know, Jim was, was, was a drunk in, in high school.

• 1:06:51Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know that.

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and college. And he quit by using acid.

• 1:06:59Billy Corgan?

  Uh.

• 1:07:00Speaker 02

  And, you know.

• 1:07:01Billy Corgan?

  And then he came back.

• 1:07:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, unfortunately, you know, acid was, acid showed him that, that liquor was bad, I think. Uh, showed me that.

• 1:07:15Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  And, but didn't, didn't last too long for him.

• 1:07:20Billy Corgan?

  Mark Tool and the gentleman I told you about that I was friends with from the Electric Prunes, he said at one point they did one of those like week long tours with you, you know, up and down the coast or something. And so, you know, like any fanboy, I was like, what was Jim like live? You know, you were there, cause of course I can only see him on YouTube or something, right? And he said it was the strangest thing to him and he was a little bit younger than you guys. And he said. Jim was, he found Jim kinda strange backstage and a bit off putting and not very friendly. But he said, so he said, like you can in a band, if you feel like the guy in the other band isn't interested in you or nice to you, you know, you have a hard time watching their band. It's like, it's just,

• 1:08:05Billy Corgan?

  it's a band problem, you know what I mean? Even if you like their music, it's not like, well, that's the guy that just wouldn't say hello to me backstage, you know? And he said, he would go out and watch you guys every night. And he said, somehow Jim on stage would transform almost into a completely different person. And it was shocking to him. Because he had trouble putting the guy backstage together with the guy that he was watching on stage. And he said even one night, he took acid. And somehow there was this, you guys were playing like a stage and there was an understage. So him and two girls took acid and like laid on the stage and watched you guys from like, like this perspective. And he said it was pretty mind blowing because he said Jim would blossom into this other performer on stage. But he couldn't put it together with the guy backstage.

• 1:08:50Billy Corgan?

  I mean, obviously you knew the guy, you know, the guy who ate hamburgers, Jim, you know what I mean? But did you, did you, and I'm not talking about the mythology, I'm talking about you as somebody in the band with your bandmate. Did you see that or did you just?

• 1:09:04Speaker 02

  Not really, no. I mean, to me, he was the same guy on stage as he was on.

• 1:09:11Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 1:09:16Billy Corgan?

  When Jim would get super provocative with crowds, there's some stuff, some of that stuff available. I'm not saying it's a, it's a good cross section, but in my band, when I would get super provocative on stage, they would get really mad at me. In my band, we call it the art breakdown. And they would get mad when I would do the art breakdown. I would say something about the government or God or MTV or whatever. And my band would get super uncomfortable and get yelled at me after the show. When Jim would kinda go off in these verbal flights of fancy, not poetry, like, he was obviously being provocative.

• 1:09:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, but that, you know, that didn't happen that often. You know, I think the, the only time really was in Miami. When he, he was just, I don't know what he was.

• 1:10:07Billy Corgan?

  That's the famous night with the goat and the sheep or, oh, see, right on cue.

• 1:10:13Speaker 02

  Must have been a combination of drugs or whatever that night. And he just started ranting and raving to this crowd. I, I'd never heard him do that before.

• 1:10:29Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:10:30Billy Corgan?

  It was kind of, that was a one-off kind of experience?

• 1:10:33Speaker 02

  It was.

• 1:10:34Billy Corgan?

  Are you guys looking at each other like, what the hell is happening?

• 1:10:38Speaker 02

  I mean, you know, we, we knew he was capable of stuff like that. So it didn't surprise us. But, you know, when, when he started saying he was gonna take off the pants, then that's, luckily, that didn't really happen.

• 1:10:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. But that caused you guys a ton of problems, right?

• 1:11:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:03Billy Corgan?

  I honestly, I.

• 1:11:04Speaker 02

  It did.

• 1:11:05Billy Corgan?

  I don't want to talk about it because I, I find when stories are, when there's so much talk about it, it's like, what can we say that hasn't already been said? So I'm not trying to dive into that, but it is interesting.

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  But in a way, it was, it was a good thing because, you know, because of, of what happened there, we were put on the no hire list, you know?

• 1:11:31Billy Corgan?

  Right. And so. So I'm saying like, no promoters would hire you.

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  Right, exactly. So because of that, we ended up recording a lot.

• 1:11:41Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 1:11:42Speaker 02

  And, you know.

• 1:11:43Billy Corgan?

  Is that, is that LA Woman Times or the one before?

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  The one, two before that, actually.

• 1:11:50Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay, wow.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, in fact, all three of those last three albums.

• 1:11:54Billy Corgan?

  Soft Parade, Morrison Hotel and LA Woman.

• 1:11:56Speaker 02

  Right, those were all done pretty quick because we had nothing else we could do.

• 1:12:04Billy Corgan?

  Towards the end, musically, it certainly gets less kind of spooky and a little bit more bluesy.

• 1:12:12Billy Corgan?

  The general word on the street, I maybe I've just read too much about The Doors, but it's like that Jim was really pushing more blues. Is that true? Or do you guys all go there together?

• 1:12:23Speaker 02

  That was true. He, for some reason, he just really was going blues on us, you know? And we all loved the blues, so it was not a problem.

• 1:12:35Billy Corgan?

  And you had great blues songs. I mean,

• 1:12:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean.

• 1:12:39Billy Corgan?

  And even some of the covers were like, they're legendary parts of your catalog. So it's not like it was a flight of fancy.

• 1:12:46Speaker 02

  Right. I mean, we love blues and, but we didn't want to be a blues band especially.

• 1:12:54Billy Corgan?

  What do you think you guys would have gotten into musically if it hadn't sort of trended towards the blues there at the end?

• 1:13:00Speaker 02

  Well, I definitely think it would have gone a lot into the blues because that's where Jim wanted to go. But, you know, if you listen to those last two albums without Jim,

• 1:13:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  You can tell kind of.

• 1:13:15Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I have to go back and listen from that perspective.

• 1:13:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:18Billy Corgan?

  That's interesting.

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:20Billy Corgan?

  When a band makes a commitment to a certain path and you guys, whatever you committed to at the end, let's call it, you got more bluesy, right? If that's fair. I'm making my own thing. I want you to correct me if I'm wrong. I think it's fascinating when great bands commit to a certain lane, they're able to create songs that somehow rise above the idiom. So LA Woman is bluesy, but somehow it's only The Doors could do that. Does it make sense what I'm after?

• 1:13:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I know what you're saying.

• 1:13:49Billy Corgan?

  There's a signature moment that's.

• 1:13:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, every blues song we ever did was not just a blues.

• 1:13:57Billy Corgan?

  That's what I'm after.

• 1:13:58Speaker 02

  It was.

• 1:13:59Billy Corgan?

  That's such a testament to your guys' ability though. Because, you know, we all work in idiomatic, you know, we're doing the raga here, we're doing the blues thing here, you know, at some point you've got to rise above and write a song that's worthy of your rep, right? Otherwise, you just sound like everybody else.

• 1:14:16Speaker 02

  Sure. Yep. And LA Woman album, there was probably more blues on that than any other album.

• 1:14:27Billy Corgan?

  Okay, we're bringing it to the gentle ending here. And we'll get to my Doors cover. So.

• 1:14:36Billy Corgan?

  Eighties, here comes the mythology of the Doors, right? You know, there's a lot of energy around you guys. Was your guys' relationship good at that point? Or did you have to kind of reevaluate your relationships in light of this renewed interest in the band?

• 1:14:52Speaker 02

  Between Ray and John and I?

• 1:14:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say a little bit.

• 1:15:01Billy Corgan?

  Like, you guys got hot again and then there was the Apocalypse Now, which was that incredible use of the end in the scene with the bombs going. I mean, it's like, talk about a movie immortality.

• 1:15:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love that.

• 1:15:15Billy Corgan?

  It's beautiful, I mean.

• 1:15:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember when that came out. I went to see it at the Cinerama Dome. Sat in the first row and the first thing you hear is my guitar with the helicopters going by.

• 1:15:33Billy Corgan?

  Here's how crazy that is. I can remember the first time I saw that. I was in somebody's basement and they had, I don't know, VHS or something. And they said, "You want to watch this movie?" And I thought, "I don't really want to watch this movie." And they put it on anyway. And that scene comes on and it's like, it's a moment frozen in my mind because it was such the perfect use of music with film. It's like Seal, like, it's the ultimate music video, you know? It's almost like you guys wrote the song for the film, but it's not. That's pretty cool.

• 1:16:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:06Billy Corgan?

  That's jealousy that I'm expressing. So, okay, just real quick, we don't have to get too deep on it. But what was the relationship like in the eighties? You know, you're 20 years or so past, you know, whatever it was. I don't do math. But now you have to kind of reevaluate your relationship in light of this new information. Suddenly, a bunch of kids like me in basements want to listen to your band.

• 1:16:32Speaker 02

  Well.

• 1:16:33Billy Corgan?

  Okay, here's an easy one. Who ran the business at that point? Were you collective of business? Or was there one band member that was sort of more business person?

• 1:16:41Speaker 02

  Ah, that's a good question. That's a good question.

• 1:16:45Billy Corgan?

  Because somebody's got to approve the T-shirts and the, you know, the new wave.

• 1:16:49Speaker 02

  Well, we still had Bill Sidens.

• 1:16:52Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:16:52Speaker 02

  Who was doing that kind of stuff. And I would say John was totally out of the doors. No interest in.

• 1:17:04Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 1:17:05Speaker 02

  Anything. Until his book came out. He did some, you know, a lot of signings.

• 1:17:14Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:17:15Speaker 02

  And he had his book being used for the movie.

• 1:17:19Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:17:20Speaker 02

  And in fact, he is in the movie.

• 1:17:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:17:24Speaker 02

  If you remember, he's in the first scene of the movie. He plays the, he plays John Haney, who was the engineer when Jim was doing his poetry.

• 1:17:36Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:17:37Speaker 02

  Remember that scene?

• 1:17:38Billy Corgan?

  I do remember the scene. I don't remember John.

• 1:17:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, John was at the microphone. So, you know, other than that, John really had no interest in playing or doing any.

• 1:17:51Billy Corgan?

  Did you guys talk about getting back together?

• 1:17:54Speaker 02

  No. Not really, not until 1990, I guess it was. There was a, there was a show where.

• 1:18:06Billy Corgan?

  VH1 storytellers was the.

• 1:18:08Speaker 02

  1999?

• 1:18:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:10Speaker 02

  All right, so that, that was the first time that we all got back together and played.

• 1:18:15Billy Corgan?

  Okay. You don't remember, but you guys called me once in the studio to ask me to be involved in that.

• 1:18:20Speaker 02

  Oh, and you didn't do it?

• 1:18:23Billy Corgan?

  Well, I hope you don't get mad at me all over again.

• 1:18:27Billy Corgan?

  They called me and said, you know, would you like to do this thing where the Doors are going to play the old songs? And you'll be one of the singers. And I was very honored that you guys called. And I said, I would love to do it, but I want to write a new song with them.

• 1:18:42Billy Corgan?

  And you and John called me on the phone in the studio. I was that Village Recorder here in Los Angeles. And we had about a 20-minute conversation where I tried to convince you guys to do a new song with me. And you guys said no. So I didn't end up doing it. And I kind of regret it because I would have loved to play with you guys. But I got it in my head, as you know, pigheaded artist. I got it in my mind, I want to write a new song with you guys. I think what it was is ultimately was an insecurity because I thought I can't, I can't do Jim better than Jim. And I didn't want to try to do that.

• 1:19:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can see that.

• 1:19:13Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean? So I thought if I could write something with you guys, we could sort of make some new music together. Because if you really think about it, it's how much respect I have for you guys as musicians. Because I just know you guys like, I guess what I wanted to say and to say it to you now is, I know if I threw you guys in the deep end of the pool, you guys would deliver. Because I know how good you guys are. Because I was such a fan, I knew all of it. So. But you guys were on that trajectory. It's like, there was a lot of interest. It's the movie and somebody, record label and the whole thing. So it wasn't my business to get involved in. But that's, that was my role on that.

• 1:19:47Speaker 02

  That was after the movie.

• 1:19:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Anyway, that, that was a pretty good album, really.

• 1:19:56Billy Corgan?

  You were happy with it?

• 1:19:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:01Billy Corgan?

  I need to go back and listen to it.

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, some of it wasn't that great. But, well, some of them were better than others.

• 1:20:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:12Speaker 02

  Like the guy that did the end. What was his name? Marco.

• 1:20:23Billy Corgan?

  We just need Marco here the whole time for, for reference.

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  Anyway, that was pretty good.

• 1:20:28Billy Corgan?

  As long as you felt good about the whole thing. And then you guys went to this whole period where you started touring again, right?

• 1:20:33Speaker 02

  Ray and I did. Days of the News, remember that?

• 1:20:38Billy Corgan?

  I remember the name of the band, yeah.

• 1:20:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was pretty, he was good. He, we did it in three, four. Did a four.

• 1:20:47Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 1:20:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:47Billy Corgan?

  I need to go and check that.

• 1:20:48Speaker 02

  See, that, that, that was.

• 1:20:50Billy Corgan?

  I didn't really listen to it when it came out because I still was hurt that I didn't get to work with you guys. But again, I blame that on me, not on you. I know we talked briefly about you being married to your wife since 1972. But as you know, like, having a partner with you through this whole journey must be an incredible thing for both of you, right? I mean, am I projecting? But it seems pretty self-evident that she was there with you through this incredible.

• 1:21:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Sometimes I think she doesn't really appreciate it, but.

• 1:21:24Billy Corgan?

  Which part doesn't you think she appreciates?

• 1:21:30Speaker 02

  The parts up in the parts after we got married.

• 1:21:39Billy Corgan?

  Well, God bless her.

• 1:21:40Speaker 02

  I'm kidding.

• 1:21:41Billy Corgan?

  God bless her. Okay. Let's here's here's a place to end. So in 1988 is when my my band really started and I was just starting to learn how to really write songs. I wrote songs, okay, but there was and I remember it at a practice saying, I wish we could get the Doors vibe, that spooky vibe. Because I didn't know how to write like that, like, like when Ray would write those weird, maybe you wrote them, but those weird kind of passing chords, you know, this kind of Kurt Weill, Bertel Brecht. You know, I don't know who was writing those chords. It was probably you for all I know.

• 1:22:17Speaker 02

  Which songs?

• 1:22:18Billy Corgan?

  Crystal Ship was the song.

• 1:22:23Billy Corgan?

  You know, it starts like C sharp minor. Before you slip into beautiful chords, like, you know, almost like Bach modal. I always assumed it was Ray.

• 1:22:32Speaker 02

  That was right.

• 1:22:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because I assume because it has a Bach ish kind of thing. So I thought a nice place to end is. So so literally my earliest gigs with the band and maybe even from the first gig on, we were doing Crystal Ship.

• 1:22:46Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:22:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Because it because it captured something that I wanted for my band that I didn't know how to do. So bringing you guys into it was a way of me saying, I want to understand what this is because it's so beautiful to me when I listen. So evocative. So I wanted to stop here because it's it's really a tribute to you.

• 1:23:07Speaker 02

  So you tried to write a song like Crystal Ship?

• 1:23:10Billy Corgan?

  I think I've tried to write 20 songs like.

• 1:23:14Speaker 02

  Which one came closest?

• 1:23:16Billy Corgan?

  Ah, that's a good question. I'd have to think about that, but we certainly, we did a lot of stuff that was sort of modal because of the end. This idea of kind of jamming in open D-ish. But we, in our case, we, you know, we blow them through marshals at full volume. That was part of what we, we learned how to do.

• 1:23:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:37Billy Corgan?

  So there's a lot of doors in the pumpkin's DNA. But I wanted to stop here because it, it struck me because obviously I knew we were going to talk about Jim and this whole journey you're on.

• 1:23:49Billy Corgan?

  And I think it's such a beautiful thing because you think about, like even when you said, when, when, when you heard that Jim was gone, you weren't even sure he was really gone. And of course, we've heard the, the 8,000 rumors and, you know, the National Enquirer version.

• 1:24:04Billy Corgan?

  And, you know, in our generation, we lost, of course, many people, Kurt Cobain being among them. You know, that what they horribly call the 27 Club, you know, where it's like, for some reason, 27 seems to be the age, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin. But, you know, there's something about certain artists, they burn so bright, you know, that when they're gone, you still feel, spend a lot of time sort of trying to figure out what they were really saying or what they meant. And I'm sure you've had those moments where you kind of realized that there were things there that you didn't see at the time and you were standing right there.

• 1:24:35Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 1:24:36Billy Corgan?

  So I thought it would be interesting because I, you know, literally from the first gigs of my band, I was singing these lyrics. So I think it's a nice way to bring our conversation. Before you slip into unconsciousness, I'd like to have another kiss. Another flashing chance at bliss. Another kiss, another kiss. The days are bright and filled with pain, enclose me in your gentle rain. The time he ran was too insane, we'll meet again, we'll meet again. So I think the beautiful thing is in, in loss, whether it's family or generational, in your case, your bandmate.

• 1:25:11Billy Corgan?

  That, once we get sort of far enough from the pain, we can really, really appreciate like what they left us. And so in that case, I, I do appreciate him.

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's cool. Well, thanks.

• 1:25:23Billy Corgan?

  Thank you, thank you, Robbie, appreciate you.

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