Michelin Star Chef: Curtis Duffy | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

In this powerful and deeply personal episode, Billy Corgan sits down with world-renowned chef Curtis Duffy to explore the extraordinary journey behind his Michelin-starred career. From a childhood marked by tragedy to becoming one of America’s most celebrated culinary artists, Duffy opens up about how loss shaped his drive, creativity, and obsession with excellence. They dive into the discipline of the kitchen, the meaning of artistry, the pressure of perfection, and what it truly takes to be great at something. Duffy shares why there are no off days in his kitchen, and how each season feels like writing a new record. Subscribe to the Magnificent Others YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO?sub_confirmation=1 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

  You know, I was shameful of my story. I didn't tell hardly anybody through my 30 years of that. I didn't tell anybody. I mean, it was very secretive. I was ashamed of it.

• 0:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I mean, you, am I wrong in thinking you must have replayed that day in your head like a thousand times?

• 0:47Speaker 01

  Almost every day of my life.

• 0:48Billy Corgan?

  Because you're an artist in my eyes. How does it not affect your artistry?

• 0:53Speaker 01

  I always struggle with the idea of, had it not happened, would I be where I am today? And I can't say that I would be. I don't know if I would be. I think everything that happens in life is usually for a reason, and it does go on to shape who you are today.

• 1:12Billy Corgan?

  Okay, welcome. Thank you very much for being here. This special edition, we're in my tea house in Highland Park, Illinois, to talk all things Curtis.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Excited to be here, thank you.

• 1:23Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. Um, this is kind of a weird preamble, but I think it's sort of necessary because, um, normally when I look at somebody's life, and one of the reasons I started this show is I love talking about people who are great at what they do. And I just want to sort of explore that, you know? And in the case of food, I mean, I'm totally a punter. I don't understand the world at all. My wife is a foodie, and you know my wife. But, uh, but for me, it's all kind of goes above my head. You know, the classic, somebody comes to the table, you know, the mushrooms are sourced from here, and I'm just like, I don't know.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're lost.

• 1:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Um, but you know, you have this, you know, this kind of unspeakable tragedy in the early part of your life, that on the surface level doesn't have any direct correlation to your, to your, your work, your life's work. But of course, it must have some connectivity. And we have similar childhoods.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:23Billy Corgan?

  And in my life, I mean, my, my childhood became such a part of my... Work and it was part of what attracted people to me because I was so being so open about things that most people didn't talk about. And of course, you've written this book, Fireproof, which is out. And, you know, of course, you talk about it in there. But I found myself struggling in preparing to talk to you. It's like, how do you put these two pieces together?

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:49Billy Corgan?

  So the reason I sort of started there is not that I don't want to talk about those things, but I'm, I'm, I'm very interested in your creative life. And yet, over here in the corner, but you have been transparent about it, is this terrible tragedy?

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 3:04Billy Corgan?

  So, um, so at least maybe by saying that it gives some context for why I'm asking what I'm asking. So I'm curious, you're a Midwestern person, Ohio.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 3:15Billy Corgan?

  And you seem to bounce between Colorado and Ohio. Um, what was your, I guess, what was your cultural life like when you were young? Do you, I mean, what, what world do you remember growing up in?

• 3:29Speaker 01

  Do you know, I guess for me, like, my happiest moments were in Colorado.

• 3:34Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  I spent my first 13 years in Colorado Springs. And for me, like, those were the happiest moments of my life. We had, we were surrounded by family all the time. I think my father was in a really good place there mentally. My mother as well. I mean, there was certain moments.

• 3:53Billy Corgan?

  Sure. But was it, was it the, was it the, I don't know, you know, for us in Chicago, like, you know, Colorado sounds like, you know, it's mountains and nature.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:02Billy Corgan?

  But you probably know, you grew up in like a normal suburb. But I'm saying, was it, was it the outdoor life? Was it Colorado back then wasn't as populous? You grew up, you know, you're born in mid 75, right?

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Seventy five. I was born in seventy five.

• 4:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So, so the world you grew up in was like, you know, the Reagan eighties.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 4:17Billy Corgan?

  You know, America by and large was considered a safe place.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Yes. The neighborhoods were safe, at least my neighborhood. I mean, we had friends, we were out till 10, 11 o'clock at night playing hide and seek and.

• 4:29Billy Corgan?

  So what you're thinking of that, is it, is it just that kind of romantic notion of what America was like back then?

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's kind of what you wish you had for your children today. Because we, we fear just letting them out the front door in this day. And back then, I mean, we ran the neighborhood, we walked to and from school. My parents were always working, so.

• 4:49Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 4:51Billy Corgan?

  What around you was attractive? Was it music? Was it art? Was it somebody, you know, that made great food? Like, what first registered in your mind as culture?

• 5:02Speaker 01

  I think friends more than anything, just being, uh, being able to stay over at somebody's house and play video games. Well, we didn't have video games at my house, but, you know, on the weekends I can play video games with somewhere else. And we could run the neighborhood. We could ride bicycles and do things like that. That was my upbringing. And for me, that was, that was life. That's what it was. It was, uh, skiing in the wintertime because the mountains, of course, were right there. And then summertime was riding bicycles and just having a blast.

• 5:35Billy Corgan?

  And I know you love music. So what's your musical reflection of that time?

• 5:40Speaker 01

  My dad playing his stereo, um, big reel to reel system.

• 5:44Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Pioneer, Sansui speakers and woodcase.

• 5:48Billy Corgan?

  You love music then because you only went there if you love music, right?

• 5:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, and.

• 5:52Billy Corgan?

  And what would you have been listening to in the house?

• 5:54Speaker 01

  CCR, Quiet Riot, ACDC.

• 5:56Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So like a classic?

• 5:58Speaker 01

  Classic, yeah. Some Alabama, actually.

• 6:00Billy Corgan?

  Okay, great band.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Oak Ridge Boys, if we're going a little country, some Johnny Cash, yeah.

• 6:06Billy Corgan?

  Sure. So, and

• 6:11Billy Corgan?

  to sort of just talk about the elephant in the room, the unspeakable tragedy is you're eight, nineteen. And we don't have to go too deep into it, but it, it sort of bears reflection. It's like, to me, it's like in thinking about it, and I don't know what it's like to go through that, but it's like a shadow on the wall. It's always there.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:27Billy Corgan?

  And, and of course, by you being public about it, it becomes part of your life story.

• 6:33Billy Corgan?

  Your father kills your stepmother, but she was the woman that raised you.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 6:38Billy Corgan?

  So in your mind, it's your mother.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  That is my mother.

• 6:40Billy Corgan?

  Really not those, there's no distinction there.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 6:42Billy Corgan?

  But technically not your birth mother.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:45Billy Corgan?

  And, um, so.

• 6:50Billy Corgan?

  Was your life before that, like I hear you sort of like, let's call it classic middle-class life. Was your life before that, would you classify this as happy, but there were sort of things that were going on? Or was it a situation that worsened over time?

• 7:05Speaker 01

  I think once we moved to Ohio, that would have put me around the age of 13, sixth grade. When we moved to Ohio, that's, I think, when I started noticing it more.

• 7:16Billy Corgan?

  Was it there and then you started noticing it? Or did something change?

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Well, it changed in a way, the lifestyle changed drastically. Like I said, like Colorado, we seemed to, it was a five-bedroom house, decent yard. I didn't feel like we struggled for many of anything, actually. And maybe that's just my naivety, being so young as a child. But when I got to the age of 13 and we moved to Ohio is when I felt like this is, we're not in Kansas anymore.

• 7:46Billy Corgan?

  Was there an economic decision behind moving?

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, my father, my grandfather owned, owned a tire retread shop called, I think it was a Big O Tires, and they retreaded tires. And my father ran the business. Well, my grandfather retired and shut the business down. So left my father with, now searching for a job. So decided to move back, or maybe move to Ohio where my uncle was, his brother. And so there was a closer family knit there.

• 8:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  So that's the reason why we moved back.

• 8:19Billy Corgan?

  So now you're 13, you're conscious of this, the shift in the family fortunes, maybe?

• 8:25Speaker 01

  Immediately, immediately. It was like overnight, like one moment to the next.

• 8:31Billy Corgan?

  Did you start working in kitchens around 14? Is that accurate?

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, about 14 years old.

• 8:35Billy Corgan?

  And this is country club, right?

• 8:36Speaker 01

  This, well, at this time, 14 years old, I was still in the small little town and I could only wash dishes. You know, I could only walk there. So I spent, you know, my evenings washing dishes in a small diner for $15 a day.

• 8:50Billy Corgan?

  Were you immediately attracted to the atmosphere of a kitchen?

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Not immediately. When, when the owner, who happened to be the chef owner of the diner...

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Uh, he allowed me to start cooking. He allowed me to start peeling potatoes and, and things like that.

• 9:07Billy Corgan?

  That's, that's cool, right?

• 9:08Speaker 01

  And, and yeah, as a young, as a young guy, you're like, anything to do from get away from doing dishes? I'll do whatever you want me to do. And so that stuff became very fun for me. And, and I started making small challenges with myself, like peeling the cooked potato, uh, trying to hold the skin in its entirety without disrupting it and

• 9:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  All these silly games.

• 9:30Billy Corgan?

  Had you had an interest in food before that?

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Never. I mean,

• 9:32Billy Corgan?

  That's funny, yeah.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  And, and it is because later, later down the road, when, when I tell my family that I want to be a chef, when I realized that this is what I want to do, they all kind of looked at me like, are you crazy? Because I would sit at the dinner table like this for hours and hours and hours like,

• 9:48Speaker 01

  and wouldn't eat the meal. And there was two, two ways of either finish what you have on the plate.

• 9:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Or go to bed hungry.

• 9:55Billy Corgan?

  Was it, you didn't like what was being, okay.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. I didn't like, I didn't like food. That was just, wasn't interested in it.

• 10:01Billy Corgan?

  You see, it was a, was it a consequence maybe of that you were born with a sophisticated palate?

• 10:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 10:06Billy Corgan?

  Is that?

• 10:07Speaker 01

  I'd like to think that I would probably err on the side. It was my mom.

• 10:10Billy Corgan?

  When I look back, I feel like I was a music snob at very young. Whatever gift I had for music voiced itself very early on as snobbery about music.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  Oh, maybe. I mean, I never looked at it that way. I've always looked at it as like, maybe my mom wasn't the best cook.

• 10:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  And rightfully so, she just

• 10:26Billy Corgan?

  But you must have a, I mean, maybe I'm guessing, but I mean, to do what you do, you must have a pretty sophisticated palate.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so.

• 10:32Billy Corgan?

  Like a sensitivity.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:34Billy Corgan?

  Um, so, uh,

• 10:39Billy Corgan?

  you're working in kitchens, but at that point, do you have any sense that there's a, there's a professional life? You're just like a normal kid. You're, you're making some money and

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, making money. At that point, I knew like I wanted to, I wanted more than what we had. I wanted more, like this was not my lifestyle. This was not where I wanted to be in, in 10 years. And at fourteen, I'm like, so I'm taking that fifteen dollars a day and just saving it, saving it, saving it, saving it. Because at some point, I wanna, you know, buy a motorcycle to deliver the newspapers quicker, because I also had a paper route.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  You know, eventually buy a car, because that's gonna get me further away.

• 11:20Billy Corgan?

  Especially in a cold weather state.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:22Billy Corgan?

  No car, no, no game, no game.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  So that's, that's where I was at. And, you know, I never really thought that this was what I was gonna do.

• 11:30Billy Corgan?

  Was there any foreshadowing in the family dynamics, say, between, you know, this kind of, because this tragedy happened when you were nineteen? Because you must have at times reflected back and said, were there signs? Did I see things? Or, or when, when, when your, when your father did kill your mother?

• 11:48Billy Corgan?

  Was it, did it seem to come out of nowhere?

• 11:51Speaker 01

  It, it didn't come out of nowhere. The irony of it, like in hindsight with most, most things, that stereo system, if we back up to that stereo system, that was like his love. The, I mean, it was a beautiful system. And

• 12:07Speaker 01

  we had to clean it on Saturday, but to clean it, we weren't allowed to touch it. So clean it, but don't touch it. In a, in a weird way of joking about it, like,

• 12:17Speaker 01

  don't screw it up.

• 12:17Billy Corgan?

  Okay, right.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Don't screw it up. Don't push the buttons. Everything's set to where they're supposed to be at.

• 12:21Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  He gave me that system. And the irony of it is,

• 12:29Speaker 01

  it was right towards the very end of his life. He started giving things away and he helped me move it into my first, my first apartment. And it was just like,

• 12:40Speaker 01

  for me, like, I was like, very excited. Like, I gotta jam this amazing system out for the first time.

• 12:44Billy Corgan?

  It's certainly my, not my area expertise, but there, there is some sense that when people are thinking about taking their own life, they start giving stuff away.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is one of the signs. And not knowing that then,

• 12:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  I certainly looked back at it. He gave me a lot of stuff towards the end, and that was his pride and joy.

• 13:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  To just give it away.

• 13:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  He's like, I don't need it anymore. What do you?

• 13:07Billy Corgan?

  So, uh, and you can go, I, I, like I said, I'm not trying to jump around the story, because like I said, it's, it's to me, and looking at your life, it, it cast this sort of shadow and, and, and that's not to put the shadow on you. It's just like, how does it not?

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:21Billy Corgan?

  You know, um.

• 13:24Billy Corgan?

  The circumstance that you get called, there's a hostage situation, the cops pick you up, you don't really totally know what's going on.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:32Billy Corgan?

  They take you to a house down the road and this whole scene plays out.

• 13:41Billy Corgan?

  I mean, am I wrong in thinking you must have replayed that day in your head like a thousand times?

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Almost every day of my life.

• 13:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Is it, do you look back and think I could have done this? I should have done that? It's such an extreme circumstance. I think that's why I even struggle for what the right question is, you know?

• 13:59Speaker 01

  The, you know, the struggle is, um, could I have done something? And, and, and the, the answer is no, I couldn't have. And, but it took a long time to come to those terms because I do know like he was asking to speak with me. But in those situations, he also had to give something up to get what he needed or what he wanted, what he was requesting to have a conversation with me or to even, uh, get a pack of cigarettes from them. There was like, you gotta give something else up. And he had nothing else to give up other than to give my mother, uh, to them. So there was no negotiating at all. It was just really a standoff.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  So yeah, I, I outplay that in my brain a lot, almost probably every day, I would, I would think.

• 14:46Billy Corgan?

  And then, uh, after this happens, I mean,

• 14:51Billy Corgan?

  sometimes I think about when people go through an extreme circumstance, I always try to think like, what happens the next day when you wake up? And that, you know, it's not a dream, right? It's like, this is a reality and now I have to sort through, you have siblings, you have relatives, you have, now this is your story too.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:08Billy Corgan?

  I mean, here we are, you know?

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Thirty years later.

• 15:11Billy Corgan?

  And we're talking about it because it's, it's part of your life.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. It, it is a weird wake up the next day moment because, um, in an instant it's gone. Everything that you knew before your first eighteen, nineteen years of my life, just gone, like.

• 15:25Billy Corgan?

  Does it make you question the happy times?

• 15:29Speaker 01

  I think it makes me um try to embrace the happy times more and and be thankful for those moments because the darker times always outshadow the the happier times. I have to dig deep to find those happy moments.

• 15:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  And the the harder ones come up so easily.

• 15:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And and did you were you able to eventually make peace with it all or or?

• 15:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I think part of writing this book was was the main reason why I wanted to write the book with Jeremy because I knew it was gonna I knew I needed to deal with it, although I've dealt with a lot of I spent thirty years of of trying to figure out all the emotions that I had towards my father, being okay with what he did. And, you know, and then trying to justify and smooth everything out so I can live a normal life.

• 16:18Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  And not be.

• 16:19Billy Corgan?

  And then being a parent yourself.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. And how not to bring those things into my my life, my children.

• 16:26Billy Corgan?

  It how old are your kids?

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Uh nineteen and sixteen.

• 16:31Billy Corgan?

  I knew they were.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:32Billy Corgan?

  How do you at some point sit them down and say, by the way, this is part of our family?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:38Billy Corgan?

  Story.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  I had to wait until they were old enough to I felt they could understand it. And also happened to release a documentary of my life called For Grace. And I didn't want my children to either somehow find it on Netflix, or one of their classmates see it and go, hey, your dad and.

• 16:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  So I had to.

• 17:00Billy Corgan?

  They had to hear it from you.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  I had to hear I wanted them to hear it from me. It was very important. So we sat down and I I tried to make the environment as comfortable as possible. We just pillows on the bed and just made it just just a loving environment and just kind of walked down the path of what it was.

• 17:16Billy Corgan?

  What was their reaction?

• 17:19Speaker 01

  You know, I think, you know, they they were crying and we were all crying and and we were trying to, you know, I was trying to make it as happy as possible. I was trying not to cry because I didn't want them to feel I was trying to tell them that I was okay with what with what had happened.

• 17:34Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  And that they needed to be okay with it, but it was important for them to understand, you know, where their grandfather and their grandmother are and, you know.

• 17:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  They're not present in their life.

• 17:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So and thank you for being open to talk about that, you know?

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yeah.

• 17:54Billy Corgan?

  Was it was it hard in writing the book to go into detail? You know, it's one thing to sort of talk about in a context like this, but like to actually sort of spell it out because it is a story like any other.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, with Jeremy, you know, because we're such great friends, it made it the process.

• 18:12Billy Corgan?

  The ghost writer, is he?

• 18:14Speaker 01

  He's the actual writer. I should be labeled as the ghost writer because I didn't actually write it. It was hours and hours of conversation like this.

• 18:21Billy Corgan?

  But it's in your voice.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  It's in my voice. Yeah. And, you know, having such a good friend be able to tell your story made me be able to tell my story with ease, with comfort, with the ability to to be really like an open book and with no judgment, zero judgment from his side. And I was always worried about, you know, I was shameful of my story. I didn't tell hardly anybody through my 30 years of that. I didn't tell anybody. I mean, it was very secretive. I was ashamed of it.

• 18:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  And I had to, until Grace came out, I just kind of buried it.

• 18:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And what's weird about something like that, weird is not the right word, but unfortunate is

• 19:06Billy Corgan?

  I can't remember what the exact circumstance was, but it was one of the first times that I met you in life. And somebody said, they basically sort of, oh, you should know this thing about him. So before I even knew you as a person.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 19:18Billy Corgan?

  It becomes this like thing, you know, but curiosity is not the right word, but it's like, it's like, oh, and by the way.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:26Billy Corgan?

  You know, and, and I think as humans, you know, if you, if you have any heart, you, you feel empathy, but then you don't really know what to do with that.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Absolutely right.

• 19:34Billy Corgan?

  And that's why I said in preparing to talk to you in this context, it's like, how do we? How do I, how do we, how do we sort of put it in context? Because really what I'm interested in is your, is your great gift with food, you know? But it, I can't, because you're an artist in my eyes. How does it not affect your artistry?

• 19:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I honestly, you know, I struggled with that for a long time and.

• 20:00Billy Corgan?

  Can you, can you slow that down a little bit and explain how that works?

• 20:03Speaker 01

  So I had a great conversation with the New York Times,

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Kim Severson, and she interviewed me a few weeks ago. And she gave me the, to the answer that I was looking for for 30 years as to. You know, this tragedy in my life, I always struggle with the idea of had it not happened, would I be where I am today? And I can't say that I would be. I don't know if I would be. I think everything that happens in life is usually for a reason, and it does go on to shape who you are today.

• 20:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  And if my parents were still alive, I don't know if I'd be living in Chicago. I don't know if I'd have the drive that I have. I don't know if, you know, if I'd be so successful. And she said, you know, that was their last gift to you. And I never thought of it that way. And it was something that I was looking for. I was looking for the reason.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  So I think all that energy, I kind of just took what happened and shifted it and full bore focused into my art.

• 21:15Billy Corgan?

  So it's like a singular, a singular focus? Is that inaccurate?

• 21:22Speaker 01

  I wanted.

• 21:22Billy Corgan?

  Was it the way of, it's like, I got all this stuff I've got to sort through. If I can just focus on one thing.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, because I, I didn't want to be alone and I didn't want to go home at night. And I was working and I was already, I already knew I wanted to be a chef.

• 21:40Billy Corgan?

  What better place than a busy kitchen, right?

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So when everybody went home, I didn't want to go home because going home meant I had to face reality.

• 21:50Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  And that's hard. So why not just stay and do what I love to do? So let's start creating things. That's, that's where my creative process started was with no one around.

• 22:01Billy Corgan?

  So walk me through this point of, okay, it's the next day. I got to go on with my life here. And, you know, you're still a very young person. And then how do we end up at Charlie Trotters, you know, four or five years later? And, you know, in this community of Chicago, Charlie Trotters, like.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  He's the god. Yeah.

• 22:20Billy Corgan?

  Legend, beyond legend.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Food god. Yeah.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  That was me making the decision to continue with college and continuing what I started. I've always been a man of my word and I was going to do what I set out to do. And I was going to finish what I want. Once I started, I was going to finish it.

• 22:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  So I had another year or so left of college and.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  My focus just became all food, all, everything, everything about food.

• 22:48Billy Corgan?

  Like an obsessive?

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Obsessive. And then, you know, of course, this is right around the time when the internet was out, starting to come out. And then every single day I would obsessively look up Charlie Trotter to see like new menu ideas, new menu changes. And my friend at the time.

• 23:03Billy Corgan?

  Are you here, that you're here in?

• 23:04Speaker 01

  No, I'm still in Ohio at this point.

• 23:06Billy Corgan?

  Oh, and you're still in Ohio?

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Still in Ohio.

• 23:07Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Finishing college. At this point, yeah, I had already spent two weeks at his restaurant. And I knew exact, I knew this is where I wanted to be.

• 23:17Billy Corgan?

  What was it about what, what

• 23:20Billy Corgan?

  he was doing that, that registered in your mind as like a form of the future? Does that make sense the way I'm asking?

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, it was for me, it was like the discipline level that was in that kitchen. The, the talent of each cook, the, the precision, the quality of ingredients, just.

• 23:39Billy Corgan?

  If you don't mind a compliment, because I've been in your kitchen a few times. I'm always impressed. And maybe it's, it's the rock star problem, but as someone who's been in, in the music business, I tend to look at people's worlds, not so much with who they are, but who's around them.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:58Billy Corgan?

  And I'm always impressed that you surround yourself with incredible talent.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:02Billy Corgan?

  So I always see that as a compliment to you. Because if you were insecure, you'd be the king and everybody else would kind of be down.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:10Billy Corgan?

  And I'm sure you've seen those kitchens.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yeah, I've been in those kitchens before.

• 24:14Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:15Billy Corgan?

  Again, I don't know about that world. Like I, I'm, it's only an observation.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:19Billy Corgan?

  But I'm always impressed by the level of talent that you, every time I've been to your kitchen, it's like you, you've got like an A-team in there with you.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's important.

• 24:27Billy Corgan?

  And you can feel that, again, not my world, but I can feel that pride of ownership in your kitchen.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 24:33Billy Corgan?

  So whatever you're bringing, they feel that.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:36Billy Corgan?

  And they trust you to take them there because everybody's on their own journey.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  Right, absolutely. Yeah, you're right.

• 24:41Billy Corgan?

  So anyways, but, but I'm saying it's cool because I've seen it on the other side. If that was your inspiration, I've witnessed it.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  That's great. That's amazing to hear. Thank you.

• 24:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know if there's a question there, but

• 24:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, no, I don't think there was, but

• 24:56Billy Corgan?

  But so anyway, so. But how do we, how do you end up working with Charlie Trotter, that, that whole? So again, in this town, it's like, that's, that's up until kind of, let's call it your generation brought in this other way of looking at restaurating.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:12Billy Corgan?

  The restaurateurs and, you know, you know, the Melman's are obviously the, you know,

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Huge, yeah.

• 25:18Billy Corgan?

  Huge here and, and have a ton of influence in this community and we do love our food, as you know, here in Chicago.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 25:25Billy Corgan?

  People always say, why, why do you think Chicago is such a food town? I guess we got nothing to do for seven months. We're stuck inside. All we got to do is eat and watch football.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  That's it. That's it.

• 25:34Billy Corgan?

  So, um, how do you kind of work your way into that world?

• 25:38Speaker 01

  So when I was in Ohio, still in college, my, my good friend, who also was a chef at the time, Regan Coivisto, Regan said, you know, you're obsessed with this guy. Why don't you go work for him? And I'm like, I don't, I don't even know how to get to the guy.

• 25:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  They, they, you know, I've

• 25:57Billy Corgan?

  And there's gotta be, there's gotta be like, I don't know, there's gotta be programs and things by which people would go to

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:03Billy Corgan?

  Apprentice or whatever.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:04Billy Corgan?

  And you're in Ohio.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  And I'm in Ohio. So he's like, you have a phone number? I said, yeah, I've got it off their website. He calls him and I was just like, oh my God, what the hell just happened? He called him and he got the right person on the phone. And said, here's what you have to do. You have to come and spend a week at the restaurant, work for free, where they call it a stage. And, you know, that gives us an opportunity to see who you are, um, how you fit in with the team and see if this is where you want to work. So it's kind of a double way of interviewing, my interview, their interview as well. And I went there, I ended up spending two weeks there. I was in total love with it, came back to Columbus, finished school. And the moment I graduated, I moved to Chicago.

• 26:49Billy Corgan?

  That's a cool story.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  It's like, I had to be here. So I spent the next three and a half years there. Little over three years there.

• 26:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  But.

• 26:56Billy Corgan?

  Did you have a sense then that, okay, this is what I want to do? I mean, you must have, right? You're obsessed now.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:03Billy Corgan?

  You're.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wanted every, I wanted to know everything about that restaurant. I spent a year and a half in the front of the house. I spent.

• 27:10Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 27:11Speaker 01

  The other time in the kitchen. I wanted to know everything. I spent time answering the phones, taking reservations. I wanted to know everything. This restaurant is one of the best restaurants in the country, if not the world. I want to, that's what I want. I want to know everything about it. So I inserted myself in all these positions. I s- that's was so important. It was so, so important.

• 27:33Billy Corgan?

  So this isn't my naivete. What, what do you guys call? You know, like, uh, people ask me, come into Chicago, where should I go eat?

• 27:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:43Billy Corgan?

  And I always recommend that they come see you. And, but I never know what to call it. And, you know, so if, if it's one punter talking to another punter, it's like, they do the 20 course.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:56Billy Corgan?

  Dig a menu.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:58Billy Corgan?

  Um, but what do you guys call it?

• 27:59Speaker 01

  I mean, we are a tasting menu. I mean, I always say tasting.

• 28:04Billy Corgan?

  In the early days of alternative music, no one knew what to call it.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:07Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  We call it, I mean, there's some people call it a dig station menu.

• 28:10Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  A restaurant. It's a tasting menu restaurant format, whatever you want to call it. We just say, you know, we're, we are a tasting menu format restaurant. We don't do à la carte.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Basically, you, you sit down and you, you, we give you the experience and you don't have any other alternatives.

• 28:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Was there, was there a lot of historical antecedent for that? Cause it seemed around the time you rose and some of your original partners kind of rose in the international, not just as Chicago restaurant scene, but in the international scene. And I started hearing about it.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:42Billy Corgan?

  From all the fancy people here that like to spend money. But point is, is, is it, it suddenly it seemed like kind of appear out of nowhere.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  Charlie, Charlie introduced it. So Charlie opened his restaurant in 87. And I say he introduced it. He entered, I think he introduced it to the Midwest. There was a couple of restaurants in the West Coast that were doing it. And of course in the East as well in New York. But Charlie introduced it. He opened with an à la carte menu. And then he started shifting it to go on, okay, you pick one, two and three courses. And then it became a tasty menu only, but then it evolved into like three or four different menus. So you had. What they called the grand menu at the time, then they had the vegetable menu.

• 29:22Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  And they had the kitchen table menu and then you could riff off of all those and kind of just do your own thing.

• 29:28Billy Corgan?

  But your crew seemed to bring in this other thing and I'm struggling for the right words because I'm not a foodie per se, but it, it was, it was a more radical.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:39Billy Corgan?

  Way out, you know, you know, the classic thing somebody would say, and I'm not saying any coming out of your, one of your restaurants. It would be like, I had the bubblegum sushi.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, the more like avant garde style, like molecular.

• 29:51Billy Corgan?

  It became a talking thing in the community.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, the molecular movement around two thousand, two thousand three.

• 29:59Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so that's, that's kind of like. In that timeframe.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was, um, I had just left Charlie's at the later end of two thousand three and I moved to a restaurant called, uh, Trio in Evanston. That's where I met.

• 30:14Billy Corgan?

  I ate there, I ate there back in the day.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. So Grant Aketz was the chef there and he was recently from the French Laundry.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  And he was very much into the molecular movement that was coming out of Spain at the time. And the Ferran Adria brothers were the leading force in that whole movement of molecular gastronomy.

• 30:33Billy Corgan?

  What was your first reaction to that kind of movement? Like, what was your first kind of intuitive take on it?

• 30:37Speaker 01

  It was super interesting. I mean, it's something we had never seen before and, and it opened up so many possibilities of creativeness.

• 30:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  And, and very thought provoking dishes.

• 30:51Billy Corgan?

  This is totally like again, a naivete question, but like,

• 30:56Billy Corgan?

  when, when you're sourcing like this mushroom from this place, like, how do you like, how do you find that information? Like, is, is it, is it like, is there like talk among chefs like, oh, there's this new place that we're getting mushrooms, right?

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:11Billy Corgan?

  What's the back channel version of how you figure that out? Are are people from food distribution companies coming to you and saying, check this out because they know you're gonna gonna lead the market?

• 31:23Speaker 01

  Right. So it's a little bit of both, actually. It's it's chef talk. It's purveyors or farmers coming to the restaurant.

• 31:30Billy Corgan?

  But so when you said chef talk, I was like, because you know what rock people talk? It's just a bunch of shit talk with some information.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's like me talking to my buddy.

• 31:40Billy Corgan?

  I saw a bunch of chefs talking. So I just saw the vision.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Majority of it is. And then there's like, oh, yeah, by the way, this guy sells me amazing quail. So it starts that way. But it also, for me, like, it's always been very important about the relationships, relationships with the people and the connection I have with the farmers.

• 31:58Billy Corgan?

  Is it a trust thing that you build up over time? Like, you know, they're not gonna give you something that's inferior.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:05Billy Corgan?

  Because if you're online and you're building these intense menus with, I mean, in a tasting menu, I mean, how many moving parts do you have in that menu?

• 32:13Speaker 01

  You have 15 courses. Each one of those courses have anywhere from five to 10 different ingredients.

• 32:19Billy Corgan?

  So that makes sense to me. So if you if you're relying on this person for your mushrooms, they can't mess with you because you can't be caught out.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 32:28Billy Corgan?

  And you have people with your restaurant. How how people book out like six, nine months?

• 32:33Speaker 01

  Three months out, yeah, three months out. But yeah, you're right. It's it is the connection. So the farmer, it is having that relationship, that deep relationship. I mean, I have, I was with Farmer Lee. I've been buying from him since 94. And these are great relationships because he's always going to give me the best product. But then, when he has the neighbor has rhubarb in height of the season, he's saying, we have rhubarb. This lady down the street has the most amazing rhubarb.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  How many pounds do you want? You know, so it's it's spider webs out over time through all these different people. And you just start connecting the dots. And and not every year that we buy from the same farmers and foragers. You know, we we spread, we spread it out. We have, I mean, we have 200 plus contacts of.

• 33:20Billy Corgan?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  People we get food from. Yeah.

• 33:23Billy Corgan?

  It's intense.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  But it's it starts with the relationship. So so important.

• 33:28Billy Corgan?

  I know it's not this simple, but. When I've been in your kitchen, usually at the end of a great meal, and you've got all that activity and all those people, how do you even begin to build those teams? Is it same thing? It's just, is it word of mouth? People you trust, he came or she came from this school? Like, how do you begin to build those teams at peak?

• 33:50Speaker 01

  Sometimes it can come through that avenue, but most of the time it is people arriving at the back door or sending their resume, although we don't really look at the resumes that much. It starts with that moment of having them stashed at the restaurant, spend a week or a few days with us.

• 34:05Billy Corgan?

  You're sensitive to that because that was you.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's so important because it is a great way to interview somebody. Because if you think of like, you know, I can try to relate this to you touring. Like, the first night, the first week is great, and you're like full of energy. But by week two, week three, you're like slowly going downhill. And then by the end, like, you're kind of just over it. We've kind of feel that way with someone who's coming to the kitchen. The first day, great. Second day, great. Third day, the hours are starting to hit them. The fourth day, the hours are really starting to hit them. By day five, it's Saturday night, it's 2:30 in the morning, they got another hour worth of work. How do they, how passionate are they about it now?

• 34:53Billy Corgan?

  You know, you're really making the right point for me because sometimes people will focus on a musician's proficiency on their instrument, which obviously is a huge part of the job.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 35:08Billy Corgan?

  But just as much as that conversation on the plane, having a meal and catering, it's that dynamic of the relationship that like, I know you're going to give me your best.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:18Billy Corgan?

  And if you have an off day, I don't suddenly have to start thinking, oh, where are we going? I just know you're just having an off day, or you're having a bad day. There might be something going on at home. You really have to trust that in the aggregate, that person's consistently going to try to show up.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 35:32Billy Corgan?

  And give you their best. So that makes a lot of sense to me.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, so part of that is also making sure that they can gel with the team, you know? Can they communicate with others? Are they not just like this single person that can't work with others?

• 35:45Billy Corgan?

  When you jumped in your, with both feet into this world and, you know, working with Grant, obviously, and then doing your own thing.

• 35:57Billy Corgan?

  Did you have a sense that your particular crowd was ushering in this kind of radical take? Was it, was there any rebellion in it? Or was it was just like, this is where the market's going and this is what's exciting? Was there a sense of a greater thing happening?

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Well, I always lead back to the community.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  What I think, we just spoke about Chicago, you know, seven months out of the year. We're forced to be kind of indoors. We have such a great food community in the city that they allow the chefs to kind of do what they want to do. So if you have a voice, and I call it my culinary voice, like I have something to say through my food.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  They allow me to do it, just as they allow you to do your music through your voice and your interpretation of what you think is great.

• 36:51Billy Corgan?

  I don't know if it's a working class thing or a Midwest thing, but I think the reason so many people end up being successful in New York or LA that come out of Chicago. I think it has a lot to do with that sort of working class ethos, which is like, if you're going to commit, I'll kind of follow you.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:08Billy Corgan?

  I don't know what that is.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:09Billy Corgan?

  Something that I almost have to think more about.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:12Billy Corgan?

  And so that makes sense to me when you say that.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, they do trust you and they do allow you to kind of do and be creative. And I don't, because I often say like, I don't know if Grant would be successful with a Linea. I don't know if I would be successful with Ever and Grace if I put it in New York or put it in LA. I don't know if the cities would react the same, the clientele would act the same.

• 37:33Billy Corgan?

  Honestly.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Certainly here.

• 37:35Billy Corgan?

  We're sitting, we're sitting in my, my cafe and I get asked all the time, oh, you should put one of these in New York. And I'm like, I don't think it would work in New York. It's too insider-y.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 37:46Billy Corgan?

  We basically build our own culture. And if you like it, great. And if you don't, okay, well then go down the street.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:53Billy Corgan?

  It's, it's, I don't know what that is. I mean, us as Midwesterners would almost have to sort of think it through a little bit more.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  We'd have to get somebody else's opinion from outside.

• 38:01Billy Corgan?

  Psychologist, we'll put a, we'll have somebody else analyze both of us. Well, you both had trauma in your life. That's why you went to the arts. Yeah. So, um.

• 38:13Billy Corgan?

  As you're building up these, you know, these incredible intense menus, is it still for you kind of a 24/7 obsessive thing? Because that's what it feels like to me whenever, you know, I come see you. Do what you do because there's so much detail.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  You know, I'm lucky enough.

• 38:33Billy Corgan?

  It's gotta be a full-time job, right?

• 38:35Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it is, but it's not, right? I, I have, I'm sorry, I always go back to music because that's my second love in, in life. I think of it as like writing, being able to write a record four times a year.

• 38:46Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  And each season is a new record for me.

• 38:49Billy Corgan?

  So it's a buildup?

• 38:50Speaker 01

  So it is a buildup. It is a kind of, for me, it's like a place and time where I'm at in my life, where I'm at, where we are seasonally in the menu. So if we're thinking of, you know, we're coming into the fall season now, things certainly get a lot darker and heavier because it gets cloudy and there's less sunshine in the city and.

• 39:12Billy Corgan?

  Yes, I'm nodding my head.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  We go into these. Yeah, we go into this suppression mode of like, ah, winter time's coming upon us and we know what's all, we just know we have to.

• 39:20Billy Corgan?

  Here comes the stew.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, here we have to get deeper and darker flavors. So we start shifting that way, but, and that reflects everything on the menu.

• 39:29Billy Corgan?

  Okay. But is it, sorry to interrupt you, but is it, is it, is the, explain to me why it's a, why is it not six times a year or, you know, is there, is there, is it, is it a host effect? It's economic, I can only do so much, I have to kind of.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  We do it four times a year specifically to stay within the season.

• 39:49Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Realistically, I think of seasonality 52 weeks out of the year because things go so fast.

• 39:57Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  If we, if we have to play in the, the boundaries of what the seasonal is, we stay in that three-month window and.

• 40:05Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  Here's our three-month window, the next three months.

• 40:08Billy Corgan?

  And if you prepare a menu for Paul and you still leave yourself room to tweak it as you, as you go?

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, every day, every day.

• 40:19Billy Corgan?

  So is it, is it your own sense of it? Is it customer feedback? How do you, how do you know, like, I got it, but not quite and I need to?

• 40:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm glad you asked that because I, I don't rely on any feedback from the guests. And I say this with the most gingerly approach, I don't really care. I don't take it or leave it. There's a million restaurants out there and I, and I only say that because and it doesn't come from an ego standpoint either. It comes from a place of my confidence level and the, and the food that I cook and knowing the behind story of what goes into making each dish, the time that it takes makes each dish before it makes it way to the menu.

• 41:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, okay.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Sometimes we'll go down the whole path of creating a whole dish that will never see the menu at all, just because it's not good enough. At least we don't think it is.

• 41:11Billy Corgan?

  What would you say we?

• 41:12Speaker 01

  My chef de cuisine, sous chef, like the key people that I kind of depend on to help curate the menu and help

• 41:19Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  taste and, you know, it, it's not just all about my perspective. It's got to be their input as well because they're cooking it every night.

• 41:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  I'm not there every single night.

• 41:29Billy Corgan?

  I saw this, I think it was a clip I was watching of you, but you said you owe it to yourself to be great at something.

• 41:36Billy Corgan?

  Where did, how did you arrive at that? Like, is it, you know, like,

• 41:41Billy Corgan?

  I think it's important. We ask successful people, like, how did you get, how did you arrive at that as a thing? Like, it sounds easy, right? Like, be great at something, but, but

• 41:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:50Billy Corgan?

  but you're, you're a living testament, like.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Well, I, I think it's

• 41:55Billy Corgan?

  Let me say one other thing, sorry. What's interesting to me about what you do is, is it is a higher wire act and there's no, like, there's no off day.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  There is no off day.

• 42:05Billy Corgan?

  Okay, right?

• 42:06Speaker 01

  We

• 42:06Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean by that?

• 42:06Speaker 01

  I do know.

• 42:07Billy Corgan?

  Like, I can have a bad gig and I'll be probably all right.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:10Billy Corgan?

  But in your world, there, there is no

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Five nights a week.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  We're gone, you know, 60 guests a night. That's 60 people that are going to judge and have an opinion.

• 42:22Billy Corgan?

  And

• 42:23Speaker 01

  And they all do.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  I kind of lost my train of thought, but with that.

• 42:30Billy Corgan?

  No, it's just, it's, it's, it's the grind of the gig.

• 42:35Billy Corgan?

  Like you were saying about when people come in, like they gotta really want that grind.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, they do.

• 42:40Billy Corgan?

  Long hours. Like, what's a normal day for you on a workday?

• 42:45Speaker 01

  I mean, my day is a little different than what their day would be. Their day would be noon to noon, noon to midnight, 1 a.m. My day starts earlier because I'm just that guy. I get up early. But I don't, I'm not at the restaurant till 1:00 in the morning. That's, I'm there till I feel the last.

• 43:05Billy Corgan?

  But even, but even like for your, I mean, a 12, 13 hour grind.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  That's a day. Yeah, that's a, that's consistently, that's, if, if anything less than that, I feel like it's, I didn't do any work.

• 43:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  And sometimes it's just catching up on emails. It's not necessarily like in the kitchen grinding.

• 43:23Billy Corgan?

  What would you, for someone like me that doesn't really understand food culture? Like, what would you want people to understand about what is like when you have that kitchen? Like, like you said, you got 60 guests, like the kitchen's flying, you got, things gotta be timed. Everything's like, I mean, it's like clock in there.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Clockwork, yeah.

• 43:44Billy Corgan?

  What would you want people to understand about that? Wait, I guess maybe the better question would be,

• 43:51Billy Corgan?

  what is so important to you about that level of commitment to food that you want them to understand? Not just like, oh, it tastes good. That's the obvious.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I think because I've made it my life, I've made it who I am. And I think maybe that comes back to what I lost my train of thought on a few minutes ago, which was you have to, you owe to yourself to be great at something.

• 44:11Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  And, you know, nobody woke me up every morning and said, get up, go do this, you gotta be great at something. Like, it just became this feeling, this energy within my brain of just like, nobody's gonna ever push you to go and do something. If you're not practicing guitar every day, you're, you're losing.

• 44:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Muscle memory, you're losing dexterity, you're losing everything. If you're not picking it up, if you're not practicing that.

• 44:43Billy Corgan?

  But what do you want?

• 44:44Speaker 01

  But no one's pushing you to do that.

• 44:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but what do you want people to understand? Like, for me, it's a curiosity because I'm not a gourmand, you know what I mean? I'm, I, I mean, I'm just as happy to eat a good sandwich from.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 44:56Billy Corgan?

  My cafe.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I am too.

• 44:58Billy Corgan?

  Right, and I know that about you. So I'm saying, what do you want people?

• 45:03Billy Corgan?

  Sometimes I think it's a, and maybe this is a middle class, midwestern question, you know? It's like, when I was a kid, we used to go to the Art Institute and you'd have somebody stand there and try to tell you why a painting was important.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:14Billy Corgan?

  And your ten years old and go, I don't like the painting.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, it doesn't resonate with me.

• 45:18Billy Corgan?

  Right. What is it that you want people to understand about that level of sophistication, that level of dedication to food? What, what is it about that you're so attracted to that you, you, you've made it your life's work to convert that to people?

• 45:31Speaker 01

  Right. Well, I love the beauty of simplicity. I love the beauty of a sandwich. But I also know, like, we can take that sandwich and elevate it in a hundred different ways tomorrow, today.

• 45:43Billy Corgan?

  So it's like, it's, is it looking for the most sublime experience?

• 45:47Speaker 01

  It's, yeah.

• 45:47Billy Corgan?

  Is it a form of joy? Is it artistry, all of the above?

• 45:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, allowing the creativity, the artistry of what you chose to do, um, to kind of shine through. And I guess it's also giving.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Showing somebody that you can do it, I guess. Maybe that's what it is. I don't know.

• 46:04Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  I never thought about it that way.

• 46:06Billy Corgan?

  Sorry. I appeared to ask you the tough question.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  That's good. I like that.

• 46:09Billy Corgan?

  No, because it's, it's, because I find sometimes I'm, I, you know, I'm laboring away in the studio over stuff that I just know people don't care about.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:18Billy Corgan?

  But it's important to me.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  But I think it's the subtle things that make your stuff so great that no one else catches and you catch it and that's.

• 46:27Billy Corgan?

  But what, what does that do?

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Okay, here's a better ways. What does that do for you?

• 46:31Billy Corgan?

  Is it a sense of pride, ownership?

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 46:34Billy Corgan?

  Is it like signing a painting at the end, like, this is my frickin' painting, like, this is what I do?

• 46:39Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, that's.

• 46:40Billy Corgan?

  If you don't get it, that's cool, but this is my painting.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  That's who I am. At the end of the day.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  When I say we all have to be great at something like that's a representation of who you are. Your music is a representation of who you are. My, my food and cuisine is a representation of who I am every single day. And I want to be proud of it. I want to be, I want somebody else to be proud of it as well. And I want them to be excited about it.

• 47:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I'm, I hate, I hate when people do this to me, so I'm apologizing in advance.

• 47:13Billy Corgan?

  The setup on the question is always, some people say, right? So.

• 47:20Billy Corgan?

  Because in explaining at times, like I said, sometimes people will ask me, I've come to Chicago. I want to have a great, and I'll send them to you. And, but I try to try to explain it, you know, like, you know, they get 25 courses, you know, whatever. And, and for people who don't get it, they kind of go, ah.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  I know.

• 47:39Billy Corgan?

  So how, not that you need to refute that kind of misunderstanding or criticism, but what would you want them to understand that they, maybe they wouldn't? What, what, what, what, what are they missing if they don't, if it doesn't resonate with them the first time? What are they missing?

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Think they're missing, uh, you know, the restaurant is built on an experience. And, you know, the tasting menu format has been around for so, so many years that it's, it's ironic that we still have to tell people, educate people on what it is. And when you say, oh, you're going to get 15, 20 courses, but they're only going to be this big and you're going to, everybody immediately thinks that they're going to leave hungry. And there's.

• 48:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, somebody I was talking to the other day, we were talking about this style of menu. And they were making a joke about how they went to a hot dog stand afterwards.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the, that's the running joke. Oh, I'm going to get a piece of pizza on the way home. And I get it, there's a lot of restaurants out there that serve you 10 of these small little bites. And then you're like, okay. The perception of value is way out, out the door. And you leave angry and you leave stopping somewhere else to get something to eat. But it is an experience at the end of the day. That's what we want you to, to enjoy. Not only, it doesn't necessarily have to be something you're celebrating and it doesn't have to be a birthday or anniversary. You know, a lot of people just want to have. Those moments of having somebody take care of them.

• 49:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  Not having to make any decisions and that's what the tasting menu does for somebody where you walk into the restaurant.

• 49:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  You don't have any choices to make that night other than do you want to drink or you don't want to drink?

• 49:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  And sparkling or still, you want coffee at the end of your meal or you want tea? Those are really the only, the other thing else is you're kind of in our hands and that's what, that's the beauty of it.

• 49:25Billy Corgan?

  So I'm not sure when this all started and I'm sure there's always been a culture of the chef as rock star. But certainly in the last 20 to 30 years, it's turned into a gig.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is.

• 49:41Billy Corgan?

  You watched it as somebody from outside the system who came into the system and now you've been sort of anointed into that. What's your sort of take on the general idea of the chef as rock star thing?

• 49:51Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't, I don't, I don't, we're definitely not, we don't live the rock star lifestyle. We certainly don't make the money that the rock stars make.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  You know, there, I, with the Food Network, when it blew everything up, I think it educated a lot of people. That was not in the food business and they started glamorizing the chef because they could make all this great stuff.

• 50:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  You know, um, so yeah, I was on both sides of it. I've been on both sides where it's, it was never a thing. Well, Julia Child was this.

• 50:24Billy Corgan?

  That was it for us as kids.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, somebody I watched.

• 50:26Billy Corgan?

  Remember Sarah at Live used to do the sketch where Dan Aykroyd made.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Exactly. So, you know, we had a handful of them, but there wasn't, not like it is today.

• 50:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 50:36Speaker 01

  Now it's like every channel, every, everywhere you look.

• 50:39Billy Corgan?

  Do you, do you roll your eyes at some of it? I'm not asking you to be critical of anybody, but you sort of go, oh gosh, this is a bit much.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of it is. Um, I, I'm not the biggest fan of like the, the game show. The ones that kind of turn it into a real, a reality series of, because it's not, it's not what we do every day. You know, I know there's a level of commitment to the TV and they have to be entertained. And so I, I get that side of it too. So I'm less critical about that. But for me, like I've always taken my craft incredibly serious and.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  You know, you you see the guys that are winning these competitions and then all of a sudden like they're put on this level of of somebody who spent thirty years in the business grinding to get where I am to somebody who's just an overnight success and

• 51:30Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  So they miss everything in between. So I'm not I know my fundamentals and my

• 51:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  foundation are so much more honed and

• 51:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I think that's maybe part of where it gets a little lost in translation to people when you try to say you should try this because most people have never tried like that level of tasting.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:52Billy Corgan?

  And I think that's part of it is the trendiness of some of that stuff. I think it's confused in their minds.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you're right.

• 51:58Billy Corgan?

  It's like it's hard to separate. This is the serious version.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it's like the TV personality is not really the chef.

• 52:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  I'm not a TV personality chef. I'm a chef chef.

• 52:10Billy Corgan?

  Have people tried to kind of bring you? I know you've done some television stuff, but I mean, given your place in the culture now, if people try to kind of franchise you?

• 52:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:20Billy Corgan?

  Or made you offers to kind of become that type of person?

• 52:22Speaker 01

  We've been down that road. And I've done a couple of ones that I felt were the more tasteful ones.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  I'm just not going to go out and do whatever somebody offers me. I want to make sure it lines with the brand.

• 52:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  And aligns with everything that I've worked towards to get where I am.

• 52:39Billy Corgan?

  Is there is there is that just strictly a I gotta keep my quality control and this is my brand and?

• 52:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that money is attractive, but it's this is where my bread's buttered.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, because at the end of the day, it's Yeah, it is about the brand because I think at the once you start diminishing the brand and it and you start

• 52:58Billy Corgan?

  Can you define your brand at this point?

• 53:00Speaker 01

  I mean, it's I think it's ultra luxury, high end. We also refined. Yeah.

• 53:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  And it's, you know, something, you know, I put myself out there. If I'm gonna connect with other people, I want it on this. I feel what I feel is the same level of luxuriousness that somebody would pay for a piece of jewelry or you know.

• 53:20Billy Corgan?

  So for the punters in the room like myself, walk me through the Michelin star process because the one thing I do know and and I know you a bit personally and I've met other people on the way. This is the big stress in the business. Is that is that fair to say?

• 53:35Speaker 01

  It is. Yeah. Yeah, it is.

• 53:37Billy Corgan?

  I remember talking to somebody about how they'd lost a star or something.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:41Billy Corgan?

  And they felt it was unfair.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  It is because.

• 53:44Billy Corgan?

  And how it hurt business. And so just for just somebody watching at home that is interested in what we're talking about, but doesn't have that sort of knowledge. Explain the Michelin star sort of process from somebody who actually lives it.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  So the process, they shop your restaurant.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  The entire year, depending, I guess, from what I understand, depending on the level of where you at, where you're at, your restaurant is currently at. And if you're on the verge of achieving more, they'll shop your restaurant more. And, you know.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  When I started out in the restaurant world, Michelin was not in the US. You know, they've been in the US less than 20 years. And as a young cook, you look to Europe, to the three Michelin stars, like that was the pinnacle chef, was somebody who obtained three Michelin stars because there was.

• 54:35Billy Corgan?

  Wasn't there some legend in like the south of France or something like this? I feel like I'm probably.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  There are, there are a few legends.

• 54:41Billy Corgan?

  There was somebody that was like.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  Paul Boulud.

• 54:43Billy Corgan?

  Three stars in some small town or is that, I'm just probably making that up.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're, I mean, they are everywhere. They're, they could be just one in a random town that has like 40 people in it.

• 54:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I've heard those stories too.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it becomes that destination place, right? It becomes like, that's the whole idea where the Michelin came from. It's like, go to this place.

• 55:02Billy Corgan?

  But you, as a restaurateur, do you have to apply to get them to look at you for a Michelin star? Or they just?

• 55:07Speaker 01

  Open the doors.

• 55:09Billy Corgan?

  Do they, is it, do you know that people are coming in or is it sort of a mystery process?

• 55:13Speaker 01

  It is a mystery. That's their greatest thing that they say is like, we shop anonymously. It could be. Could be in a two top, it could be a single diner, it could be buried in a six top. A Michelin inspector, it could be the whole table is a Michelin inspectors. You just don't know and.

• 55:30Billy Corgan?

  Does that cause anybody any kind of like detective feel in the back, you know?

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's why the restaurants do some of the, what our restaurant do, does the homework on every guest and name that are in the reservations that night because we're trying to search out any weirdness. We call them spiders. We try to search out anybody that has a fake name. You can't find anything on social from them. And it's something that we just pay closer attention to. They could be absolutely nobody and they usually are. But it's, they've done a good job of hiding their identity and. That's curious to us because.

• 56:04Billy Corgan?

  Interesting.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  You know, that's what they're notorious for is like hiding their identity, all the food critics, they always incognito.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  So yeah, gaining those stars is something you have to work towards and you have to work towards them every single year. So they're not there for you to keep.

• 56:20Billy Corgan?

  That's the thing, sorry, but that's the thing that's sort of fascinating to me is like, once you get, say, one Michelin star, you don't get to keep that.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  No.

• 56:28Billy Corgan?

  That's like, is it a year to year process?

• 56:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, every year they, they come back and.

• 56:32Billy Corgan?

  Is there a date where it's like the stars are announced?

• 56:35Speaker 01

  But yeah, yeah.

• 56:36Billy Corgan?

  Oh my God, that's gotta be a stressful.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  It is stressful because you're like, you know, it's usually in November for us in Chicago. And leading up to Chicago, you know, they're shopping. Before, when they were just printing the book before, now it's all digital. Before, there was kind of like, you got a sense of like. All right, well. They gotta. Get it in print, they gotta print the books, they gotta ship all the books, so they're probably done shopping us now. We had that window of opportunity, like. We gotta be on our game.

• 57:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I get you.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  Cause. Now we can kind of relax a little bit. You know, you're not shopping, we just received the awards, but.

• 57:11Billy Corgan?

  So fascinating.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  It is, it's, it is like you have to be on every night, every table, we don't know.

• 57:16Billy Corgan?

  That's what I mean about the, you can't have a night off.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  It's hard to, yeah.

• 57:20Billy Corgan?

  That level of expectation.

• 57:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the consistency that they're looking for. They want to know like.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  They had a phenomenal meal tonight. If they come back in three weeks or even tomorrow night, is it going to be the same experience or we, were we just like. Hitting everything tonight, you know?

• 57:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because it's like a gig, right?

• 57:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:40Billy Corgan?

  With all those moving pieces, there's just nights where it just doesn't.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Sometimes it doesn't work.

• 57:43Billy Corgan?

  It's just one of those things.

• 57:46Billy Corgan?

  I'm asking this semi jokingly, but. What's your feel on, on Gourmands? And. I would define Gourmands as people who are like. Super foodies.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:55Billy Corgan?

  Like my wife's a foodie snob. And you guys talk that language, whatever that is, you know?

• 58:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:01Billy Corgan?

  But like the Gourmand is sort of a different thing.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  It is.

• 58:04Billy Corgan?

  I, I have one friend who's a Gourmand and they will literally get on a plane, fly to another country. Get on a train to go to some. Village in God knows where. To eat at a Michelin star restaurant. That is mind boggling.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  It is, it is. When, when we got our third star. It changed the entire dynamic of our dining room. It was. All of a sudden it was. Everybody else but Chicagoans.

• 58:32Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 58:32Speaker 01

  And they, most of them did not speak English. And they were coming in for one or two nights, hitting one or two restaurants and disappearing again.

• 58:41Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  And it was like that for years. And just the Gourmands, it's those people that just travel. They want to see the newest three star restaurant. They want to see.

• 58:53Billy Corgan?

  Are they a more demanding customer? Or in any ways they're your greatest audience? How do you?

• 59:01Speaker 01

  I think they're a little bit of both. I think the, the ones that are demanding are also some of our greatest clientele, because it keeps us, pushes us.

• 59:10Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  It continues to make sure we're on top of things.

• 59:13Billy Corgan?

  In my world, we call them super fans.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:15Billy Corgan?

  They're the ones that know the B side and.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 59:18Billy Corgan?

  I played this song once in.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:21Billy Corgan?

  Two thousand nine.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, the same ones.

• 59:25Billy Corgan?

  Okay, this has just popped in my head. You've got to have people that find you on the street and they want to tell you how to book your menu. There's got to be that guy or girl.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  How to?

• 59:35Billy Corgan?

  Am I imagining that?

• 59:37Speaker 01

  How to book the menu?

• 59:38Billy Corgan?

  Or like, hey, you know, A to your restaurant?

• 59:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:42Billy Corgan?

  And you really should.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:44Billy Corgan?

  There's got to be that.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  There's always somebody, there's always some, even, even on a nightly basis, there's somebody that has like zero filters. And, and then it just comes out and you're just going, okay. It's the weirdest thing, I know you've experienced it too. It's the weirdest feeling. Like, I'm sorry, but I spent thirty some years cooking food and you're telling me like.

• 1:00:08Billy Corgan?

  I had an experience the other day where somebody, I can't remember what it was. It was like they started, oh, I was outside a train station somewhere in, in Europe. And I met a fan on the street and they, they said, oh, I'm coming to your show tonight. And they said, can we take a picture? I took a picture. So as we're taking a picture, a guy goes, hey, are you going to play these songs tonight?

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:00:36Billy Corgan?

  And I go, you know, as long as we're standing here, do you want to write out the setlist?

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. You want to just write it for me?

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  So bizarre. It is so bizarre. Yeah.

• 1:00:47Billy Corgan?

  Okay, last little bit.

• 1:00:50Billy Corgan?

  And by your own admission, you know, what you're doing is is is this upper, upper tier of of food and and service. And and I think it's worth saying, as somebody who's eaten at your restaurants many times, it's not just the food, the services exemplary. Your staff is fantastic and everyone's always so great. It's a it's a wonderful experience, not just to dine, but to also be treated so well and and looked after.

• 1:01:17Billy Corgan?

  I know you have, you know, during the pandemic, you opened your hamburger spot. But like, what's your thought on this? Does the does the super high level food community have any duty to serve the masses? Does it make sense?

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  I I think I think the interest, I can only speak for myself. I think the interest starts with, I love being able to cook at that level. And I know it's certainly hits a certain clientele and and it limits our restaurant, right? But we're fortunate enough to be serving 60 people a night and doing what we do.

• 1:01:56Speaker 01

  But I also have this other interest that, yeah, I want something less demanding. So that gives me the opportunity to open places like Rev Burger or After that is.

• 1:02:08Billy Corgan?

  Sorry, because because for people would know, talk a little bit about the the burger joint you opened during the pandemic. Because I think that's a great story.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, we we were in a place where most businesses where we had just opened ever. I mean, we were, well, pandemic hit and we were in mid construction still. So we had to figure out a way that how are we going to get these doors open? Nobody knew what was going on. Kept chugging along as if, you know, this was going to go away quickly. Of course, it didn't.

• 1:02:38Billy Corgan?

  Two weeks to flatten the curve.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So then we were fortunate enough to open the doors and we got, I think, three. Three months underneath our belt and then the city came back and shut us back down. The entire city down.

• 1:02:53Billy Corgan?

  We had the same experience here.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  So now we're, we're sitting with, you know, 50 people and employees that now we're

• 1:03:00Billy Corgan?

  By the way.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Obviously responsible for.

• 1:03:03Billy Corgan?

  Tell me if I'm wrong. You got, you got this A team around you. If you let them back out in the market, they're going to go find another job.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  They're gone.

• 1:03:10Billy Corgan?

  They're not going to go sit at home.

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  You're right. You're right. So how do we, how do we pay these guys? Because yeah, we had a great amount of people we didn't want to lose. Like we're just starting.

• 1:03:21Billy Corgan?

  I, I'm recalling one conversation we had once, but it, what really struck me about it was how much you cared to make sure that your employees stayed working.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:30Billy Corgan?

  That was part of your inspiration. Wasn't just like, what am I going to do? You were like, I owe it to these people to kind of

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 1:03:35Billy Corgan?

  Keep us together.

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's a heavy burden to sit on your shoulders when you, you know, because a lot of them has, they have family and children and

• 1:03:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  They have to provide for themselves and we just now open and we're only three months old and now we're closed. What do we do? So we pivoted really quickly with this burger plate concept called Rev Burger. And we started serving them out of the restaurant because at the time that's all we had. So night after night.

• 1:04:00Billy Corgan?

  Then it took off.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Then it took off. It was, it was phenomenal. I mean, we were selling, selling out of burgers every single night. It was

• 1:04:06Billy Corgan?

  And the idea was the greatest burger you've ever had, right? So I'm a vegan, so I'm

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:09Billy Corgan?

  I'm jealous of all this.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it was, for me, it was like, I didn't want, everybody kind of expected a fancy, oh, chef burger and like, no.

• 1:04:17Billy Corgan?

  But there's no way you're making a bad burger.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  I'm not doing that. Like, I just want like, a great, simple burger. That's it.

• 1:04:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  And I don't even eat burgers that much.

• 1:04:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  It's like rarity that I will have a burger. But I felt like if you Google very quickly, like the highest food quantity people eat hamburgers and pizza.

• 1:04:37Billy Corgan?

  Wow, this is just

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  It's like a no brainer. Like, let's do it. So, so we did the burger place and then we finally got to a place where we moved that across the street into a, in a building where we kind of

• 1:04:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  Did a standalone and

• 1:04:50Billy Corgan?

  I think it's just such a cool thing.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:51Billy Corgan?

  Okay, last question.

• 1:04:54Billy Corgan?

  If if the early 2000s ushered in, at least in American food culture, this idea of the tasting menu and and, you know, the rise of the chef rock star, what is the future of food at that level? You have, you must have another vision in there. Or or or is this top speed? And yes, you can change the food, but like, this is it. Doesn't make, is there, is there, is there a different thing that can be had?

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, there is, and

• 1:05:23Billy Corgan?

  Are we 3D food? I mean, like, what is the, like, what is, what is the, what is the chef chat shit talk in the back? You know?

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's elevating the casual dining, elevating the fast food portion of it. Because I think what we see trending is always when we hit the lows of lows countrywide, worldwide, is that

• 1:05:48Speaker 01

  the ones that survive are the upper echelon, because there's always money to be spent there. And then the fast food chains, they're always going to win because it's

• 1:05:57Billy Corgan?

  The middle is vulnerable.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  The middle is vulnerable. The middle is always the most vulnerable, because you don't really need to go out and have a nice meal.

• 1:06:04Billy Corgan?

  Well, and there's always going to be another Italian joiner.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  Exactly. So those are the ones that suffer. So everybody is pushing for this fast casual concept.

• 1:06:13Billy Corgan?

  I certainly would, as a vegan, I certainly would love to see a higher end vegan fast food, if that's any, I mean, we do a version of that here at my cafe, but where it's not a chain, you know?

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:25Billy Corgan?

  Or something that's franchisable.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  Exactly right. And that's something I think is a heavy focus in worldwide. Well, maybe not worldwide, but at least in in the US.

• 1:06:35Billy Corgan?

  It certainly seems doable that if you wanted to make a high qual, like, like with your hamburgers, if you were able to work it out where the quality level was consistent. I certainly for middle America with how much, how many people we have that are eating poorly. If you could up the grade of what they're eating

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:53Billy Corgan?

  and and, you know, the digestive part of it all, where everybody would benefit and have a better experience.

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:00Billy Corgan?

  Because for many people, and because we grew up in that world, working class families, I mean, they just don't have the time sometimes, you know?

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  The time or the or the finances to do that. I mean, that's why I think a lot of them lean towards the fast food, because you can feed your whole family for 20 bucks. But if you try to go to the grocery store? You're gonna get three things.

• 1:07:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  At least now it's a if you try to get anything healthy for a family for $20, you're not you're not even

• 1:07:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  A loaf of bread and.

• 1:07:29Billy Corgan?

  But there's no.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  Not much more.

• 1:07:31Billy Corgan?

  I'm I'm sorry, I'm just sticking on it for a second. There's no, I don't know, is there like? It's like when you go to like Disney World and they do like futuristic food like is there any futuristic food that we should know about? Not like not like Dippin' Dots, you know what I mean? Like it's gotta be.

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think there's always.

• 1:07:49Billy Corgan?

  Like I saw this, I saw this clip where you were um.

• 1:07:55Billy Corgan?

  You were shaving tuna.

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:57Billy Corgan?

  And then freezing it and putting it in like curly Qs.

• 1:08:02Billy Corgan?

  Is there some new technology that we should know about?

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  No, we you know, we we explored that in the early 2000s with the molecular side of it, right? That and I think people got tired of that so quickly. Like, give me just real food. Like, I don't want your smoke and mirrors and and you're giving me something that's orange and you're calling it orange, but it tastes like a

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  Granny Smith.

• 1:08:25Billy Corgan?

  I've had a few. I've had a few of those. Yeah.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  You know, they're trying to trick your brain to eating beets.

• 1:08:30Billy Corgan?

  It's fun, but it's it's a my opinion is some who eats those types of places sometimes, it's fun, but it's like a one time.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're doing it one time and you're done. That's it.

• 1:08:41Billy Corgan?

  Like an amusement park ride. It's like.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:43Billy Corgan?

  Well, that was fun.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't need to go on the velociraptor six times in a row.

• 1:08:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  It's not happening.

• 1:08:50Billy Corgan?

  Okay, well, I need to do I do I need to do my research. There's gotta be something.

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  I don't know if there is anything. I'm not sure.

• 1:08:55Billy Corgan?

  Well, you would know. That's kind of why I'm asking you.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's a lot of the chefs are.

• 1:08:59Billy Corgan?

  Do people do people show up at your door and sort of pitch you on new technology?

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  They they pitch their ingredients on stuff that they're doing with technology.

• 1:09:09Billy Corgan?

  Does a guy show up with like a machine and like this is the.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  No, I haven't had any of that in a long time. It's been a long time. There are new stuff that's out there that.

• 1:09:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  You know, before like what do you call those machines that spin super quick?

• 1:09:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  In a doctor's office.

• 1:09:28Billy Corgan?

  Like they spin blood or whatever.

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So, so five years ago, that wasn't available to a cook.

• 1:09:34Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  Or to a restaurant, but now they call it a Spenzol.

• 1:09:38Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  And I guess it's been longer than five years, but it's a machine that you can take a puree. Um, let's just call it strawberry puree. And you put it in there and then it just spins at RPM rate and it extracts. So you can get a beautifully clear strawberry juice, water, whatever you want to call it. And then the pulp is, is also incredibly intense.

• 1:09:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  But it's all red and.

• 1:10:01Billy Corgan?

  That sounds kind of cool.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  It's fun. I mean, there's a lot of applications that you can go down the different paths with it from the cocktail world to the food world and achieve a lot of different things like, you know, distillation is another one that people are messing with a lot now.

• 1:10:15Billy Corgan?

  What's distillation?

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, you could literally take water and dirt and put it under vacuum. And as you heat it up, it starts to vaporize and then it goes through it same way they make alcohol, they distill it. And it drips down this clear water that tastes like dirt. I mean, that's a bad example, but any food you want in there, you could do all the hot peppers, right? You could do the habaneros and all this stuff and it'll get the flavor without the spice and the. Oh, I guess. So you can really get incredible flavor through things like that, that are like really, really, really concentrated. That then the chef can add or to a drink or just little bits. Things like that. Those are, I mean, those are always fun to.

• 1:10:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  Introduce into the menu.

• 1:10:59Billy Corgan?

  All right. Well, I think we end on it tastes like dirt at this.

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:03Billy Corgan?

  We talked to all this high flute and stuff.

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  Thank you, Chris. Thank you.

• 1:11:06Billy Corgan?

  I hope you enjoyed it.

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  Pleasure. Thank you.