Daryl Hall, Part 2 | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan continues his deep dive with Daryl Hall in Part 2, where Daryl opens up about his hitmaking philosophy (“don’t think about it”), the unexpected re-release of She’s Gone, and sharing the stage with icons like David Bowie and Stevie Wonder. He reflects on the creation of Rich Girl, the pressures from Tommy Mottola and Atlantic Records, and the turning point that led Hall & Oates into their legendary 80s run. The conversation gets candid about fame and the industry politics that left Hall feeling “trapped” even at the height of success. He also shares how Live From Daryl’s House became his purest form of self-expression and explains why restoring old homes feels like “living inside art.” Subscribe to the Magnificent Others YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO?sub_confirmation=1 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:09Speaker 01

  When I'm on stage, I'm the focal point and that's what, that's what I do.

• 1:14Billy Corgan?

  Because you've been such a successful hitmaker, do you have a particular philosophy about making hits? Because again, your ability to move through genres.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  My philosophy is, is don't think about it.

• 1:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  I was, I worked with, we, we opened for everybody from David Bowie to, to Billy Paul and Steve Wonder. I mean, go on and on and on.

• 1:41Billy Corgan?

  So only in the record business, does your old label release a song that you had before to capitalize on your success with the other label that you're now signed to?

• 1:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52Billy Corgan?

  And of course, we're talking about She's Gone.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:55Billy Corgan?

  Which they reissue becomes, I think, number seven?

• 1:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00Billy Corgan?

  You must have been like, okay, like, sure.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  I wasn't complaining.

• 2:04Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 2:04Speaker 01

  I just thought, well, okay, you screwed it up the first time, so try and do it right the second time.

• 2:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, and of course, it's, it's a classic now, which is funny how those things work, you know?

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15Billy Corgan?

  How long, how much after that kind of was reissued did Taveris do their cover? Which was also a hit, number one R&B?

• 2:22Speaker 01

  I'm not, I'm. My brain, I'm, I'm, I'm forgetting what came out first. Tavoris, Tavoris did it. But I'm, I don't know if they did it before, before.

• 2:34Billy Corgan?

  Oh, before the reissue.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  I think Tavoris did it. And then we, then ours was.

• 2:40Billy Corgan?

  Cause their version's great.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was good.

• 2:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Really cool. Um.

• 2:48Billy Corgan?

  I'm curious because, okay, now you're having your first true success. You've got two hit singles. I mean, for people like us, it's like, wow, I mean, it's.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  Two hit singles.

• 2:58Billy Corgan?

  It's actually, it's actually happening. I'm, I'm that guy, right?

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:01Billy Corgan?

  Um, what was your personal life like then?

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Uh, it was, um. Well. I was still, I was, I was living in the village in New York. And, uh, with Sarah Allen. And, and, um.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  I was on the road a lot.

• 3:21Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  You know.

• 3:22Billy Corgan?

  Were you doing those package tours where it's like you guys?

• 3:24Speaker 01

  I was playing with everybody, man. We, I was, I worked with, we, we opened for everybody from David Bowie to, uh, uh, to Billy Paul and, and, and Stevie Wonder. I mean, go on and on and on.

• 3:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Cheech and Chong.

• 3:38Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  No, we didn't open, no, they opened for us.

• 3:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Uh, how'd you get on with Bowie? He must have, I, he might, I don't know. I, I knew David did. He must have loved what you were doing.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was, this was too early to, he, he was, this was the second show he played in the United States.

• 3:53Billy Corgan?

  Is this Ziggy Stardust time?

• 3:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, this was, this is the first Ziggy thing.

• 3:56Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  And it was in Memphis, Tennessee. And I, it blew my mind, to tell you the truth. And, but.

• 4:01Billy Corgan?

  Oh, he's so good.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  But, I mean, you know, he was, they were treating him like he was, I don't know what. The, you know, they would carry him around and it was, oh, it was, it was.

• 4:14Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's when he was with Tony DeFries.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, all that.

• 4:16Billy Corgan?

  Tony DeFries was charging him 50%, putting him in limos and bankrupting him so everyone would be.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  That whole Tony DeFries situation, oh man, it was, he had these guys in karate suits walking around. I mean, it was, it was stupid. But, uh, you know, I, I love David, man. I mean, I.

• 4:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:34Billy Corgan?

  I'm curious because I don't think there's any information that I saw. Because you've been such a successful hit maker. Do you have a particular philosophy about making hits? Because again, your ability to move through genres, you know.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  If I have a philosophy, it's that I don't know what it is.

• 4:52Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  I, I, I am always surprised if something is successful commercially or, or not.

• 5:01Billy Corgan?

  So you wouldn't fall in a trap of thinking, okay, this one's going to be a hit.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  Uh-uh. I mean, I, I, sometimes I think it's going to happen and it doesn't happen at all.

• 5:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  You know?

• 5:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, sometimes I say to my fans, you know, if I knew how to recreate it, I would, you know?

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. They always say, what's your formula? Are you kidding?

• 5:20Billy Corgan?

  That's why I ask the more of a philosophy, you know?

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, my philosophy is, is don't think about it.

• 5:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I, I do think it's remarkable that, uh, obviously there's cultural influences in your music as you go through the eras, but you seem overall immune to trend. Does that, is that a fair comment, you think?

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I, I think I'm out of the, you know, should be generous kind of thing. Uh, you know, it's, uh, I, I, I try and even, I don't do it at all now. I don't even pay any attention to trend, but even, even in days when it was more important because of the way, way radio worked and all that.

• 6:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  I, I, I still only just picked and chose little things to try and be relevant and, and congruent with the, the other people that were on the radio.

• 6:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  You know, although my stuff wound up not really sounding like everybody.

• 6:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Were, were you receiving any particular, uh, business pressure to go in a particular direction at that time?

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, uh, I always used to get like Tommy Mottola pressure, you know, that kind of stuff. You know, you know.

• 6:35Billy Corgan?

  Can you define that?

• 6:36Speaker 01

  You know?

• 6:37Billy Corgan?

  It would be very good if you would, uh.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Stop playing those guitar songs. Stay with the piano, you know?

• 6:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I had a manager once tell me, you write songs that girls like. What is all this heavy, loud guitar music? He said, you should just stick with the pretty girl songs.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, this all.

• 6:54Billy Corgan?

  That was 1990, which is before.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  I wrote, I wrote, you made my dreams. He said, what's that, Charles Dickens? What is that supposed to mean?

• 7:03Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my God. Okay, so we're at the watershed moment of the second Atlantic album. Rich Girl goes number one. Great. Still one of the great songs of all time. Is there a fresh story there about that song?

• 7:20Speaker 01

  I don't know if it's a fresh story. There is the story.

• 7:22Billy Corgan?

  All right, tell me the story.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  I mean, I've told this story, but it was Sarah Allen's college boyfriend, who she still hung out, not hung out with, but you know, knew. And he came to our house, our apartment. And he was tripping or something. I don't know. You know, he was acting pretty crazy. And he happened to be an heir to a fast food place in Chicago. It's Chicago.

• 7:53Billy Corgan?

  Is it sausage king stuff?

• 7:54Speaker 01

  It was one of those kind of things. Yeah. And he left. I went, man, he's a rich boy, but he's gone too far. And that's then I sat down and he's a rich boy and he's going too far. That's about as far as I got. And then I said, no, that don't sound right. So I changed it to Rich Girl and then finished the song.

• 8:15Billy Corgan?

  I'm curious at this stage, because I know how the music business works all too well. There had to be someone in your ear telling you at this time to go solo. There had to be.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  My real friends.

• 8:29Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  As opposed to the business.

• 8:31Billy Corgan?

  Was there any internal dilemma for you of following that?

• 8:35Speaker 01

  There was a lot of people. And this went on for quite a while where people were saying, why are you? Just why don't you just?

• 8:43Billy Corgan?

  Are you innately a loyal person?

• 8:46Speaker 01

  I am, actually. I mean, I do consider myself very loyal.

• 8:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  And to a fault sometimes. And

• 9:00Speaker 01

  I did this, I, you know, I bucked it and went with Robert and did this and did those two records.

• 9:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Robert. And that was when I was actually making a statement going like, okay, I'm going, I'm, I'm doing a solo, excuse me, a solo thing. But I got so much pushback from my manager, Ms. Hola, and, and, and the record company.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  It just made it impossible. They sabotaged it. That's really what happened. I mean, as simple as that.

• 9:31Billy Corgan?

  Is it because they're like, this is working, don't mess it up?

• 9:34Speaker 01

  The old cash cow, they liked it. They, they thought, they thought Hall of Oates was more viably, uh, was more commercial to their interests.

• 9:44Billy Corgan?

  Do you wish now that you had?

• 9:47Billy Corgan?

  He did that call?

• 9:48Speaker 01

  I

• 9:51Speaker 01

  I wish that I would have done more with Robert, yes. Yeah. And he does too. I mean, Robert and I are close friends. And

• 9:59Billy Corgan?

  Another total gentleman.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, a great guy, really great guy. And, and I just saw him a couple of weeks ago. And I, I wish that we had done more together. Yes, I do. I mean, he, he really, he was into it. He was, he was pushing for it. He said, let's, let's go, let's, you know, he, he wanted to call it League of Gentlemen, you know, he's and you be the singer and then we'll write songs and da, da, da. And then I, I just, it's got too much pressure. I mean, I, I was living in a bubble. I will be first to say that I was almost semi hypnotized by it all because I was, I was kept in a situation where I didn't really have any advisors.

• 10:42Billy Corgan?

  They did that back then very well.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  In the business. I mean, everybody was on the side against me and they were all in collusion with each other. Whether it be lawyers or accountants or a record company or the, the whole thing, management. And, and, and they all, they were all saying the same thing. Stick with Oates, stick with Oates, stick with Oates. And then I, I did and did the Voices album and that was around the time when I was, could have made that choice of either going and doing some

• 11:12Billy Corgan?

  Seventy seven?

• 11:13Speaker 01

  No, this was more like seventy nine.

• 11:15Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  And, and whether I was going to do this thing with Robert or I was gonna Make an album for RCA.

• 11:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  And I did it and then, uh, I don't know what you would call it.

• 11:26Billy Corgan?

  Fortunately. They kind of buried it or?

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Well, it, it, it became, I mean, that was Kiss on my List and all that stuff.

• 11:33Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  So then it was successful.

• 11:36Billy Corgan?

  Hmm. Um.

• 11:41Billy Corgan?

  I do remember because I was a fan, I do remember when you seemed to, at least publicly felt like you guys made this pivot to what became more of an eighties sound. I was surprised that when you went there, you went there a lot earlier than a lot of people.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:58Billy Corgan?

  In many ways, I think you're probably more influential in that space than I would have given you credit for because in my mind, that stuff was more like mid eighties, but like it really starts about 1980, which was, um,

• 12:10Billy Corgan?

  Kiss on my List and, um, was that something that you had decided in turn? Like what, where'd that come from?

• 12:17Speaker 01

  It wasn't, it wasn't a decision. It was the fact that we were, that we were producing ourselves pretty much, uh, with, with the engineer. And I was, I, you know, I had been spending most of my time in England and, uh, I think that that's why it, I, I,

• 12:35Billy Corgan?

  You picked up on the,

• 12:36Speaker 01

  I picked up on it because it was, it was, it was happening faster over there. And so there's, there was that influence.

• 12:42Billy Corgan?

  What was attractive about that? Cause there's a, you know, eighties music is kind of cool. It's alien in a way, but it's got a coldness too, but that's what makes it pretty.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it was just a different sound.

• 12:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So there's nothing like you had this kind of moment. It's just like, you just kind of drifted there.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:59Billy Corgan?

  Okay. That's interesting. Um.

• 13:05Billy Corgan?

  This is, you guys go on this hellacious run. So you lost that loving feeling goes to number five. Kiss on my list, number one. You make my dreams come true. Number five. Private eyes, number one. I can't go for that. Uh, that was number one. Man eater, number one. Um, I obviously not all in a row, uh, and out of touch, number one. That's like, that's, that's like crazy land.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  It was.

• 13:31Billy Corgan?

  Success.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  It was, it was, it was, whatever it was that we were doing, people were suddenly really liked.

• 13:38Billy Corgan?

  What do you think it was about that, looking back? That that?

• 13:42Speaker 01

  It's very hard for me to tell you. It was, it doesn't sound like other people. It sounds very much like me. And

• 13:50Billy Corgan?

  It's to my ears, it still sounds super fresh, which is weird because

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Well, that's, that's what everybody says.

• 13:56Billy Corgan?

  It's like the kind of thing if it came out today, it would still work, which is weird.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  That's part of its lasting success.

• 14:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  These songs, they, I mean, I play them on stage all the time.

• 14:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Without John and it's, nobody seems to, you know, it sounds the same.

• 14:12Billy Corgan?

  Well, we'll just leave that way for a moment.

• 14:16Billy Corgan?

  Okay, now.

• 14:19Billy Corgan?

  You, I asked you before what your life was like when you started. Okay, now, now you're in a totally different stratosphere of success. I mean, the whole world knows who you are, especially back then. You're on MTV every five seconds. I mean, you're probably being recognized.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  That whole MTV thing, I mean, that took it to another place because it coincided exactly with the initial success of

• 14:39Billy Corgan?

  Right place, right time.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  I mean, Totally right place, right time. And, and we were dominating that, that, that, that whole network. I mean, I was a guest DJ all the time, VJ all the time. And, you know, they just give us five hours to do whatever you want. That kind of stuff.

• 14:56Billy Corgan?

  Um.

• 14:59Billy Corgan?

  Now, for those paying attention to our conversation, I mean, you are the dominant vocal force in this moment of high achievement. And it's, you know, it's, I'm not saying it's unprecedented, but you're, you're in that sort of weird Beatle stratosphere where you have this run of hits that's like, I mean, it's only a few groups have ever had anything remotely like that.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Well, the eighties, just me and Billy Joel.

• 15:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  We were the two.

• 15:24Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so give me a little bit what your life is like that, like then? Let's start there.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  It was, it was the old cliche. It was like, it was like a whirlwind and we were a hurricane. We were in the

• 15:34Billy Corgan?

  Did you enjoy it or?

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Not really. No, if you want the truth, I, I didn't find it that pleasant because that wasn't my motivation to get to do it the first place.

• 15:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  You know, I'm a musician. I don't, you know, I, I'm not looking for attention.

• 15:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  If you want, you know, and It was, it was, it was, uh, I, I couldn't go anywhere. It was, it was, you know, I couldn't go out of the house. I had people bothering me all the time. I couldn't go shopping, couldn't go to the supermarket, you know, all that kind of stuff. And, and I, I didn't like, I didn't like it.

• 16:08Billy Corgan?

  Were you still living in the city then?

• 16:09Speaker 01

  No, I was, I was living up here, not here.

• 16:12Billy Corgan?

  You got, you got the hell out.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, well, I, I still had an apartment in New York, but I was, I was living in Connecticut.

• 16:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  And, uh, but it was, it was just really hard. And, and then combine that with the, whatever happens on the road. That was big eighties time, you know, with all the excess and everything. I thank God I was in a drug, I was in the drug guy. But, uh, it was, uh, it was some wild.

• 16:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:42Billy Corgan?

  What's your relationship like with your musical partner at this time? Because, you know, at least from an observational point of view, and again, I was listening to you guys back in the seventies. So I was aware of the partnership. But at this point, I mean, you are like the face of the thing. Who cares what it's called? I mean, it's very much you that's singing the songs on TV. Um, what was your relationship like with them?

• 17:02Speaker 01

  We had a pretty good one, I have to say. I mean, you know, it was, we were together in the midst of all this. So that drew us.

• 17:11Billy Corgan?

  That sort of bonds you?

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, drew us together.

• 17:14Billy Corgan?

  So it didn't bring anything out that you look back now that sort of shows the seeds of kind of where you guys ended up? Does it make sense?

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Only in the small ways.

• 17:21Billy Corgan?

  Okay. I'm curious too, because there was, there was that interesting time, like, uh, you know, Bowie has Let's Dance, he's, he's playing stadiums. Tina Turner has this massive comeback. She's playing stadiums. And I'm not saying you guys didn't have a lot of success. You were obviously huge. But I mean, there had to be some point where you thought, I could have that for me.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  This is the big question mark and, and, and, uh, This came up in another podcast where the guy said, yeah, I was, I was a student at a Marist, not Marist college, but a Catholic college in Western Pennsylvania. And you guys played in the assembly room and it was, it was like 1982.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  He said, even we were thinking, why are they here? Why are they playing here? And ask anybody and they're going to say, ask, ask anybody in the, in the, in the, the live world, the, any agent that was around back in those days. And they're going, why the did he do what he did to you? You know, why were you staying in holiday ends and playing high schools? When you, when you should have been playing stadiums.

• 18:37Billy Corgan?

  Okay. But back to my point, cause to me, this is sort of the crux of what I'm after is, I mean, if it was me sitting in front of a TV watching my contemporaries, who I'm.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  I used to say, why is, why is so and so doing this? And why am I here? And I would get double talk. I would just get done.

• 18:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Why are they making all this money? And I'm, and, and, and.

• 19:03Billy Corgan?

  But didn't the math kick in at some point where you thought, not only can I get out of this, but I.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  The math kicked in, everything kicked in, but I was trapped.

• 19:11Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  I was literally trapped in, in a world where every single, I'd said this before, where every single person in my, in my business world was on the other side.

• 19:22Billy Corgan?

  Right. I, I know that feeling, so I'm, that's why I'm nodding my head because it's, it's, it's, it's hard to explain if you haven't experienced it. It's sort of a haunting, it's like, it's the famous movie Gaslight, right? It's like, you're being gaslit and.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  You're being gaslit.

• 19:36Billy Corgan?

  It's, you know. People say stuff to you like, don't get too full of yourself, you know?

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:41Billy Corgan?

  That, all that stuff.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Where there was always somehow the, the wolf would be at the door. There will always be some reason why the money was, the money's tight, you know, that kind of.

• 19:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, or you're only good as your last hit.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, any of that.

• 19:53Billy Corgan?

  Um, I'm, I'm, I'm abusing the quote and again, it's the internet. So if it's not your quote, please tell me. But I, I saw a quote where you said something along the lines of every artistic form has its golden age. And, and unfortunately mine ended in 1990. Is that something you said, you think?

• 20:09Speaker 01

  I said that?

• 20:10Billy Corgan?

  I saw it attributed to you, but it doesn't mean-

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Every artist has a golden age that ended in nineteen-

• 20:15Billy Corgan?

  No, no, no. Every, every, every, every artist, I'm sorry, every artistic form has its golden age. And unfortunately, my, what I was good at, or what I was sort of recognized for, that ended in nineteen ninety.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  No, I didn't say that.

• 20:28Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  But, but what I did say is, uh, uh, close to that, and somehow that got turned. Uh, I, I said that every, every era has an artistic situation has its gold age.

• 20:38Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  And that age ended in nineteen ninety.

• 20:40Billy Corgan?

  Then maybe I'm-

• 20:41Speaker 01

  Had nothing to do with me.

• 20:42Billy Corgan?

  Okay, maybe, okay, God bless you. I, I didn't mean it that way. What I took it as is that, um, you know, tide shift, and oftentimes, great success is followed by sort of a period of confusion, because it's almost impossible to sustain that level of intensity.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you have to, uh, you, one has to, uh, adapt and, and, and evolve. I mean, I, I, I think that when I look back on it, my period as a quote pop star, whatever you want to call that, uh, and I think that that kind of wound down around nineteen ninety.

• 21:14Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  But, but then something else kicked in.

• 21:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  And, uh, so I think that did coincide with the end of, of a certain golden age of, of, of pop music.

• 21:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  And now I think that I might add then that now, because I think that pop music is bigger than it ever was now. But it's a different kind, but it's a different kind of pop music.

• 21:33Billy Corgan?

  True.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  It's a whole different-

• 21:35Billy Corgan?

  I, I, you would have, in your, in your youthful prime, I mean, you would have still been able to be a dominant force, because your ability to move-

• 21:43Speaker 01

  I, I probably would have be able to swim in those waters.

• 21:47Billy Corgan?

  I, I, I take that bet on you. Um, I'm not, uh, my show is not about gossip, so please understand why I'm asking this. Um, there's not a lot of information about your relationship with Sarah Allen, so I'm more interested in the musical part of the partnership.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, my, I can tell you both, really, even though this is gossip. I mean, Sandy and I, I can't call her name, Sarah, Sandy, uh, we were together for, uh- A long time, almost 28 years, something like that. And she was, and her sister, I always have to add her to it, were very influential. I mean, a lot of the best songs in that period of time were written by the three of...

• 22:31Billy Corgan?

  Private Eyes, I Can't Go For That, Maneater.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  Right, well, I Can't Go For That is, there's a lot of misattribute, what's the word, misattribute?

• 22:38Billy Corgan?

  Misattribute.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, there you go, that.

• 22:41Billy Corgan?

  We'll agree on that, we'll agree that we don't know how to say it.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, however you say that. Two, in writers' credits, there are, you can't go by writers' credits.

• 22:49Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  But, and I'll say that for no can do, I wrote that song, nobody else.

• 22:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  But, but you mentioned, yeah, Kiss and Private Eyes.

• 22:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  That was Alan Sisters and me. And, and I, The Kiss On My List was a song I wrote with Jana Allen. She was only 20 years old, and, and she came up with it, with a chorus. And then I fleshed out the verse, and, and that was a real collaboration. And with Private Eyes, she brought Private Eyes to the table. She had written this kind of template for the song with a guy named Warren Pash. And, and they gave it to me, and I altered it and changed it. And then Sarah and I wrote the words. So, I mean, these were collaborations between them.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  And Sandy really had a lot to do with this stuff.

• 23:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. But I guess what I'm interested in is your life in 50-plus years in music, it's defined by these partnerships, and in this case, it's a personal relationship. And again, I'm not sort of after the gossip part of it, it's like...

• 24:05Billy Corgan?

  Do you feel good that your life is defined by partnerships? And or do you feel, do you still have some part of you that thought I should have sort of stood in my own light at some point? Does that make sense? I don't, I'm not trying to assign anything to you. I'm just curious.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  When I'm on stage, I'm the focal point. And that's what, that's what I do. I mean, you know, I'm, I'm not, I'm, when I'm on stage, I don't have any partners. It's just me. You know, you know, and when I, when I'm creating, sometimes I have partners within, and within a project, and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I write songs on my own.

• 24:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  It's, it's just, it's flexible.

• 24:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I, I recently interviewed Sam Moore. Unfortunately, he just passed away. I think it might have even been his last interview. And I was asking him about his partnership with Dave. And I said, looking back, how do you feel about Dave? And he goes, I don't think much of Dave.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Well, that's, I hate to say it, but that seems to be a common thing, especially with do-oes.

• 25:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  It's, it's.

• 25:07Billy Corgan?

  Is it there, ultimately, they're, by nature, there becomes a power imbalance at some point?

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:12Billy Corgan?

  It wasn't any different in my band.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  I think it's inevitable. I mean, well, even, even in a band, usually a band has two people doing things. That's so.

• 25:20Billy Corgan?

  The great bands, everybody does something, which is why it gets, where it's wild.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  True, true. But you know what I mean? It's like, look at the Beatles. I mean, you know, it was Lennon and McCartney. And then, then, then there was the other.

• 25:30Billy Corgan?

  But isn't it crazy with the Beatles that like, you got the guitar player can also write hits? That's just where.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Well, that's what made, I mean.

• 25:36Billy Corgan?

  That's where your mind just blows. It's like, how do you have, how do you have three guys that can write songs?

• 25:40Speaker 01

  That's the best kind of band. But, but I think more commonly, it's, it's usually two guys that, that, that expand upon themselves and form a band.

• 25:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  What were we talking about? I can't remember. Anyway, that.

• 25:54Billy Corgan?

  Well, no, we were talking about, I asked you and, and I was sort of asking, you know, your, your, your life is defined in many ways by your partnerships. You know, obviously there's the one that everybody knows because it's the, it's the, it's the name of, it was the name of the door for 50 years. But even in your personal life with this 20 year relationship. There was a musical component to that partnership, too.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  I think a lot of people's lives are defined by their partnerships outside of music. I think that's part of life.

• 26:22Billy Corgan?

  Not everybody lives it in the glare of the public light.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  That's the difference. That's the difference.

• 26:27Billy Corgan?

  Which is why I'm asking you these invasive questions.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  But I, my partnerships are varied. So it's not, I guess I'm not creatively monogamous.

• 26:41Billy Corgan?

  I like that. I like to talk a little bit about Daryl's House because it's such a great show.

• 26:47Billy Corgan?

  I love the spirit of Daryl's House. I mean, it's one of those shows as a musician, the first time I watched it, I was like, this is great. This is just musicians celebrating music, having a good time. I know it kind of came, you know, it kind of came in a somewhat spontaneous way, right? It wasn't, there wasn't some game plan. It just kind of happened.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  No, I just, I had one of those moments where I just went like, wait a minute. Instead of traveling the world, why don't I do something where the world comes to me? And in my house, you know, everything opposite land. And instead of having an audience, no audience. And it's just have a, have a good time, really.

• 27:28Billy Corgan?

  I was watching this morning, your episode with Booker T. And knowing you love that music from Stax and Sigma. But I mean, there's got to be that little kid in you that's still like, oh my God, I'm hanging out with Booker T.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I get flashes. Well, that happens a lot with some of my idols that have been on the show. I mean, maybe the most extreme two would be that my, one of my early ones with Smokey. When he came there and I was, I was like, wait a minute, Smokey came up here to do this.

• 28:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  And, and then more recently was when I did it with the OJs. And that was like, again, baby food. That's Philly.

• 28:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  And, and, and, you know, we went to a place. And that's, that's when I really float, start floating, you know? And Booker T, I remember singing, ain't no love, ain't no love. And I was like, yeah, he wrote that song, man. That was always what I'm like teenager and I love.

• 28:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:29Billy Corgan?

  What do you want people to to understand about Daryl's house? Meaning, what is the what is the message you want them to walk away with? Because there's a consistency there, but but I'd like to hear it in your own words.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  I think the people, I mean, I don't know if it's necessary, but I I want them to know that how spontaneous it really is and how good my band is. They're outrageous, man. They can do things that blows by a mind. He, I mean, I, we did that. We did the show with Robert, and the song, we did the song Red for one of his, one of his.

• 29:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's King Crimson, right?

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, King Crimson Red. And we didn't even rehearse it. I mean, we we rehearsed it separately.

• 29:21Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  This is what we do. We rehearse things separately, and then we come in the room and we just play it. Everybody works on their own parts.

• 29:29Billy Corgan?

  And and King Crimson is a little bit.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  And Robert flipped out. He went, I have never played this song with anybody that it didn't take them at least three days of hard work to learn how to play. And we did it in 10 minutes.

• 29:45Billy Corgan?

  Since we're in this beautiful house built in the 1700s, it's like late 1700s. What is it about your love of of old homes and restoring these things? Like, what what have you found in privately that you didn't find in the world?

• 30:02Speaker 01

  Well, I, like many traveling people who have done most of my life, I really have a real desire, a domestic desire to to balance it out. That's one thing. Number two, I grew up with this stuff. I grew up in Chester County, Pennsylvania, outside of Philly. And and I grew up with old houses, you know? I grew up with with with colonial and, you know,

• 30:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  all that kind of thing. I was born in one.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  So is that. And also, you know, some people collect art. I like to live within art. And that's what this is. To me, this is a giant painting. So there you go.

• 30:46Billy Corgan?

  Thank you.

• 30:50Billy Corgan?

  I used AI for this thing, but I was sort of surprised. I said, tell me your touring history, starting in 2000. You know, and it's, you know, it's 43 shows, 65 shows, 35 shows. I mean, there's this consistent going on and playing. Um, and then 2022, seven shows, and that's it. You know, between you and the Mr. Oates.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Well, that was, that was, uh, yeah, I'm trying to remember what we, we, we knew this was kind of after the pandemic. It's just,

• 31:29Speaker 01

  I think a lot of people's mind changed and a lot of people's ideas coalesced and thoughts and, you know.

• 31:36Billy Corgan?

  Can you quantify that though?

• 31:37Speaker 01

  Uh, I think that anything, any, any of all those kind of underlying resentments or

• 31:44Billy Corgan?

  Oh, wow.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  desires to go off on their own or, uh, uh, do, do what you haven't done in the past. I think the pandemic, that, that silence, that, you know, that, that

• 31:58Billy Corgan?

  It was a deafening silence.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  You know, staying in one place and, and, and breaking all patterns. I think that that definitely was the catalyst for us to go in different directions.

• 32:14Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So was there a, was it just an, an understanding? Or you're just, okay, that's it?

• 32:19Speaker 01

  It was more, it was, believe it or not, and, and people can't believe this, but he, it was his idea.

• 32:25Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  He, he, uh, he wanted to go off and live in Nashville and do whatever the hell he does.

• 32:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So here's the setup on, on our, on our finish. I asked, I asked AI again, so it's AI, but I said, where, where does this group fit on the all time list of success? And it came back with a very interesting answer. It said, in the rock and roll era, 1956 to present day, uh, this Hall and Oates is the 40th biggest artist of all time.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  I don't know how you quantify that.

• 33:05Billy Corgan?

  Well, it tried to, but I'm saying it's it's it's still it's when you when you consider the competition, you've done quite well.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, that's that's flattering. I don't think it means anything.

• 33:16Billy Corgan?

  It does something to me. It does to me because it's it's it's it's because you know, how can I put it? Success can be an illusory thing to the public, depending on who's on television and who gets pushed and what songs get played and what payola and.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:32Billy Corgan?

  You know, I mean.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  All those factors.

• 33:32Billy Corgan?

  The public eventually figures out who the real deal people are and the Spotify numbers eventually sort of reflect that because that public will come back again, again, again to those those important artists.

• 33:45Billy Corgan?

  Also, I said, I asked where you rank on the duo list, all time biggest duo, based on the quantification there in terms of, you know, to measure box office, meaning a sales and chart success. So it's very interesting to see it that way, you know, against what it's the Everly Brothers and six number one hit songs. I mean, it's nothing to sneeze at, as we say back in Chicago.

• 34:15Billy Corgan?

  So knowing it's ended a bit sour with Mr. Oats, are you cool with that? Not I'm not saying that stuff, but I'm saying, are you cool with the choices you've made? Are you like, yeah, okay, I would I would basically, would you do it all over again?

• 34:34Speaker 01

  No.

• 34:34Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  I would have done it differently. There's many things I would have done differently and they would have produced different result, but I don't doubt that they would have been okay with me, whatever that was. But I I I listened to the wrong people for way too long. I was I allowed myself because I'm not a weak person, but I allowed myself to to get wrapped up in.

• 34:57Billy Corgan?

  Well, if I can give you some confirmation on that. Up until you started Daryl's House, I saw you in this kind of amber, preserved in amber kind of way. Big artist, I saw you as the front man, that was, that was easy in my mind. But I didn't really know you. You know what I mean? It wasn't until Daryl's House was like, oh, this guy's, there's a soulful person in there.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:18Billy Corgan?

  There's a person who loves music.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  That is.

• 35:20Billy Corgan?

  There's a generous spirit.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  That's another one of my motivations to, to have done the show. I, I felt like people didn't know who I was.

• 35:28Billy Corgan?

  I'd been listening to you for, like I said, I started listening to you with Sarah Smile.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:32Billy Corgan?

  And for the first time in 2007-ish or something, I'm like, oh, there's this guy. Which is why I'm here, you know? If it was just about music, I don't think I would have come because it's just a cold pop star.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I hear you. I hear you, man.

• 35:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Uh, that, that really, I, I should have said that when you asked me about my, why did I do Daryl's House? That was one of my main motivations is I felt, I felt like people didn't know what my motivations were, who I was, what kind of person I was.

• 36:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Uh, I think they had a completely different idea of what kind of person I was.

• 36:05Billy Corgan?

  You know how the kids say you get your flowers? Do you feel like, feel like you've finally gotten your flowers here in this?

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got plenty of flowers. I got a little fucking forest, forest of flowers.

• 36:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, okay. Well, God bless. Um, again, not interested in the gossip, but I think it helps understand because legal issues can be complicated. So, uh, and I'm pretty conversant. I did some pretty deep research because when the, when the story came out about your lawsuit against, uh, John Oates, you know, it's, it's the public, you know? He says, he says type of thing. I knew right away that, that you wouldn't have been doing what you're doing if there wasn't some sort of legal foundation. That, that was my first read, but I've actually taken time to, to understand the suit as presented. But can you, and, and I call it the punter way, can you tell people what the sort of foundational?

• 36:55Speaker 01

  I can't really talk about it too much because I'm still in the middle of, but it wasn't a lawsuit, it was a restraining order.

• 37:01Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  And what that was, was to stop him from basically selling the company.

• 37:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. You had a shared company or you have a shared company?

• 37:09Speaker 01

  He tried to sell the company without telling me.

• 37:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So

• 37:13Speaker 01

  That's all I could say about it.

• 37:14Billy Corgan?

  Great. So but from an emotion, not great, but you understand, but from emotional point of view, I mean, a 50 year plus partnership, that must have been an interesting kind of cold water.

• 37:25Speaker 01

  There was a lot of things. It was again, after the pandemic, I felt like I was dealing with a different person.

• 37:30Billy Corgan?

  Do you see that in hindsight as this kind of long simmering?

• 37:35Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 37:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know the motivation. I never, I don't know if I ever will.

• 37:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  It took, it hurt me. It took me by surprise. I, can I just say, I gave him a hell of a lot. You know?

• 37:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  He

• 37:51Billy Corgan?

  Well, that seems to be the general perception from the fan community.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Well, I'm, I'm saying that because I have a support to say that. But I mean, I don't know, I don't know why he did what he did.

• 38:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  Nobody else does.

• 38:01Billy Corgan?

  Can you, I know you're in a legal situation, but can you at least view it empathetically? That might be too Pisces in a question, but.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  View him?

• 38:09Billy Corgan?

  Well, but sometimes the analogy that comes to mind, excuse the bad song analogy, but sometimes people put their cards on the table, right? And once their cards on the table, you're like, okay, now I finally understand this explains some of what's been happening over here.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  I, I think that I just explained it as well as I can, but there's things that I don't understand myself.

• 38:30Billy Corgan?

  Right. I, I guess what I'm saying is, at least in my own situation, sometimes when people reveal themselves, it's almost refreshing. It's like, okay, now at least we're dealing with your version versus my version as opposed to this other thing that I thought I was in.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  At first, there was the initial shock and surprise, and then I knew what I was dealing with.

• 38:48Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  And then, then it was adversarial.

• 38:50Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 38:55Billy Corgan?

  If given the opportunity, which is what I'm after, is, is there something you want people to understand about that musical relationship? Because you know how the public is, you were both on the poster, you're both on the album. I know in my own life, when I've tried to delineate what I've actually done in my group, you almost get this weird pushback, like, don't spoil our fantasy. You're like, somehow you're the, you're the wizard behind the curtain that's killing the vibe.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I think there were certain fans that wanted to believe and but I think what I'm finding out subsequently because I go out there and play in front of people and do what I do, that there wasn't that much of that belief.

• 39:38Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  I think there was a lot of, okay, I get it. Uh, I think, but I do think that there was misunderstanding that I threw him out of the band, which is the opposite, which is the opposite.

• 39:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, well, that's just the modern life. They need a bad guy to make the story work.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, they tried to, at first, people tried to make me a bad guy, but I, I think even now, they're, they're realizing, at least the people that come to my shows, realizing.

• 40:03Billy Corgan?

  Well, uh, I'm not asking you to comment on the lawsuit, but at least my understanding of the lawsuit was he tries to, he tried, he basically goes against the partnership agreement, tries to sell his share of it to Primary Wave, doesn't tell you, uh, you had to give permission for any sale, so you don't even get the notification, and then he puts you in a corner and basically forces you to deal with a third party.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  You hit it on the head.

• 40:24Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So at least for people watching, if they haven't.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  I'm glad you're saying that. That's good.

• 40:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Because then people can hear that.

• 40:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, okay. Um, so I'm looking for a happy ending, but maybe there's not a happy ending.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Oh, the happy ending is I'm out there working and I have an album called D.

• 40:42Billy Corgan?

  Well.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  We didn't even talk about that.

• 40:45Billy Corgan?

  Well, let's talk about it. I'm happy to talk about it.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:48Billy Corgan?

  We did talk about it at the beginning, to be fair.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, no, I mean, really talk about it.

• 40:52Billy Corgan?

  Okay, let's talk about it.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, the, now that I'm saying that, what am I going to say about it? It was, it was a real, it's an album of joy and, and it, it was cathartic, it was fun to make, it was, I think, really, really musically successful, and it showed what great. A great partnership, Dave and I, what a real, really good partnership can be.

• 41:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I was struck, listening to it yesterday, I was struck by how joyous it is, full of life. I particularly like, I'm 58 years old, and you're just a little bit older than me. And so I found it inspiring because like, you have not given up the ghost, you know?

• 41:33Speaker 01

  No, I'm hanging out with the ghosts.

• 41:35Billy Corgan?

  You know, America's a little slow compared to the European version of letting people like us age gracefully and still make music.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it's an unusual thing. I mean, you get bogged down by your own baggage, I think, in a lot of cases. You get to be my age and my, you know, my experience. And I think when you, it's like finding new love or something, you know? It's like, it's never too late. And, and you can be inspired by all kinds of things.

• 42:04Billy Corgan?

  Last thing, because I've heard some stuff behind the scenes, and there was some talk with Paul McCartney, with, you know, how they always were like Lennon and McCartney. And, and at one point even, I think I heard where Paul wanted to switch, you know, his songs would say McCartney, Lennon. And is it, is it important for you to, for people to understand what your contribution was? Are you okay if they want to think whatever they want to think?

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Well, I, they can think what they want to think.

• 42:31Billy Corgan?

  Because, because again, like I said, as a fan of yours for, gosh, 40, almost 40 years, right? You know, the pleasure of doing an interview like this with you, it's like, I'm put in a position where I have to sort of make decisions, right? And, and sort of check my fan version of reality. And, you know, going back to the first time I heard Sarah smile on a little record player.

• 42:56Billy Corgan?

  And I think what's interesting is that, you know, you've made this incredibly well-received music and certainly benefited from it in terms of public interest. But, you know, like I said, when I was talking about Elton John, you know,

• 43:10Billy Corgan?

  there's been very few moments where you've had that breakout moment where it's really been about you. And I think there's something unfair about that. And so I appreciate you being so open to talk about these things. Because I think that's part of, it's not a restoration project, you know, you don't deserve restoration. You are, you, you, you've already done it, my point is. But for someone like me as a fan, it does help to know that there's a sort of a truer story to the thing, at least from your perspective. Because it makes me appreciate you even more, what you, what you've contributed to my life as a musician.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Well, I think that, you know, my answer to that would be that I became really me when I started doing the series, the Live from Daryl South series. That's what I broke out and became. Me.

• 43:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, here we are. God bless you. Thank you.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, bro.