Diane Warren | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan sits down with legendary songwriter Diane Warren for an unfiltered conversation about her relentless work ethic, creative process, and groundbreaking career. Warren opens up about her daily routine, the organized chaos of her longtime writing space ("The Cave"), and her strong preference for working alone. They explore how the music industry has shifted from talent-driven opportunities to data-driven metrics like TikTok trends, why true artistry isn’t about following trends, how resilience, defying doubt, and proving people wrong are ongoing themes in her music and much more. Watch The Magnificent Others on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:30Billy Corgan?

  Who's singing when you're writing?

• 0:31Speaker 02

  Well, sadly, it's me.

• 0:33Billy Corgan?

  I'm always oriented to, I gotta sing my own song.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're lucky, you're a great singer.

• 0:37Billy Corgan?

  I mean, you are a song assassin. I love it.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 0:40Billy Corgan?

  Is it 1,500 songs at this point? You're up in Irving, Berlin, territory of first songs written.

• 0:45Speaker 02

  I've written a lot of songs.

• 0:46Billy Corgan?

  That's what the internet says, 1,500.

• 0:48Speaker 02

  Wow, you know, the data that matters is, does it make you, the hair on your arm stand up? Does it make you feel something?

• 0:56Billy Corgan?

  So, I'm intrigued about the cave. Do you have a name for the cave?

• 1:00Speaker 02

  I mean, I didn't name it the cave. So, it's a place I've been writing.

• 1:03Billy Corgan?

  But what do you call it?

• 1:04Speaker 02

  I guess call it my disgusting writing room. I don't know, I mean, you know, Robert Hilburn one time wrote an article in what used to be called The Calendar. It was a magazine, it was a really long time ago. And he called it the cave. And so, but I never called it that. I mean, I don't call it anything, really. Just call it my room, you know? I've had it for almost 40 years.

• 1:23Billy Corgan?

  I've seen the pictures.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's kind of, I mean, I like it in there. I was there today, I start every day there, you know?

• 1:28Billy Corgan?

  What time do you start every day?

• 1:29Speaker 02

  About nine, a little after nine.

• 1:31Billy Corgan?

  And is it, okay, what's your normal workday? Because I've read some...

• 1:34Speaker 02

  I just, you know, my normal workday is I show up like around nine o'clock and just start writing and, you know? Then I also have a building where my studio is a couple of blocks away. So, I usually start out at, you know, my old place.

• 1:47Billy Corgan?

  And then go record whatever you're writing?

• 1:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, not necessarily recording, but I go have lunch and then I might have a meeting or I might, you know, like today, I was just recording something before I got here. So, you know, it's all kind of, but I like to start out the day just by myself. Like, I have my company, it used to be at that, at that place.

• 2:03Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 2:03Speaker 02

  And then the COVID shutdown happened and everybody stayed home. And I was like, but I went there every day. I go, I really like it. I like being here, I like being here by myself. And I just bought the other place and I was making that to be where the company would move to. So, it worked out.

• 2:18Billy Corgan?

  Just a bunch of keyboards, drum machines, like what is your kind of work path?

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, a drum machine, like, you know, keyboards. And I have a couple of rooms in my old place. And I have a piano, a grand piano in one room. So I kind of just kind of float around both, all those rooms. And then I go to the other one and I write in the studio sometimes.

• 2:37Billy Corgan?

  See, you touch my heart when you talk like this because you and I have a very similar experience of just thousands and thousands of hours by ourselves.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's not weird that it's weird. It's weird, like, people go, "God, you write songs by yourself?" I go, "Yeah, why is, it's weird that it's weird."

• 2:53Billy Corgan?

  It's my happiest place.

• 2:55Speaker 02

  Me too, me too. Like, it's like life to me.

• 2:56Billy Corgan?

  It's where all the dreams come true or something, right?

• 2:58Speaker 02

  Yes, I love it.

• 2:59Billy Corgan?

  So I really, when you're talking, I can feel it.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, you get it.

• 3:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  But it's so weird, now there's so many people, like, there'll be like 10 people in a room, like a writing camp, I'm like, "That, you know, I mean, you know, can I talk like that?" They'll be bleeping me a lot.

• 3:15Billy Corgan?

  That's fine.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  But, yeah.

• 3:17Billy Corgan?

  So, just to paint the picture for our great audience, like, describe, I know there's stuff all over the floor, there's cassettes and...

• 3:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's, I don't know.

• 3:26Billy Corgan?

  Is there DAT tapes, are we going like...

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Oh, there's DATs, there's cassettes, there's everything, I mean, it's like, there's probably like dinosaur eggs in there, I don't know, I've been there so long, who knows what's there. I'm either, I'm probably immune to every disease, because like, I've been there for 40 years without cleaning it.

• 3:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's all like mold and...

• 3:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. So... The mold won't even go in there.

• 3:45Billy Corgan?

  Do you, when you go in to write, are you focused on one idea that captures your attention, are you in a free associative state and then go back and review?

• 3:53Speaker 02

  I mean, I like just to be, work on one song at one time, because I have to give it my full attention, because I have to really make that song as good as I can make it.

• 4:00Billy Corgan?

  I hate this question, but I, I'm such a fan of your writing, I'm gonna ask the question I don't like being asked.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 4:06Billy Corgan?

  Which is, melody, you know, what's the first thing generally?

• 4:10Speaker 02

  I like to have a concept of something I want to write.

• 4:12Billy Corgan?

  So I'm gonna steal this, because this is really about me getting a free classroom.

• 4:16Speaker 02

  No, but, not that I can teach anything, but I like to, like, something that's gonna compel me to write it. But it might be just playing some chords, like that happens too.

• 4:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but if it's, if it's, if it's an idea, is it a scenario, like a...

• 4:28Speaker 02

  No, it might be just a title, I don't know, I just kind of...

• 4:30Billy Corgan?

  Okay, anything.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:31Billy Corgan?

  As long as you feel...

• 4:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, feel compelled to do it, or I might just be playing chords, you know, and then not knowing what, you know, but I don't ever write a lyric first and write music to it. I've never done that.

• 4:40Billy Corgan?

  Never, huh? I've done that a few times and it's always worked. I don't know why I don't do it more. I don't think it's my, excuse me, I don't think it's my natural state. I think my natural state is melody first. And then kinda the melody takes, almost tells me the story.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 4:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Are you, are you superstitious?

• 4:56Speaker 02

  I kinda, kinda am, you know, but it's not, that's not why I don't wanna clean my room.

• 5:01Billy Corgan?

  Please tell me why you don't wanna clean your room.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  No, I'm just too lazy. I don't know. I kinda like, I'm used to it. I like it.

• 5:05Billy Corgan?

  Well, you know, as we say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 5:10Billy Corgan?

  Explain, I think I know, but I wanna hear it from you. Explain the advantage of writing in a place that you feel comfortable in or safe in or...

• 5:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like anything. I mean, it makes it easier if you feel safe. It's like, you know, I don't know how to answer that. I just, I like to be comfortable and then I could just not think about where I am. Cause you know, when, when we write, we kinda, it transports us.

• 5:36Billy Corgan?

  So it's a more, it's a lack of distraction in a way, like?

• 5:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:40Billy Corgan?

  I know.

• 5:40Speaker 02

  Even though it's really just, even though I got a lot of distraction in my room, like it's all messy and disgusting, but in my mind, it doesn't, I don't notice anything. I don't, you know, I could, I drive down Sunset a million times and I'll go, oh, you know, I'll see something, not realize it's been there for 30 years and I've been driving by it, but I just don't notice.

• 5:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Are you an astrology believer?

• 6:02Speaker 02

  Not as much, but I do like a good horoscope. I believe in it when it's a good horoscope.

• 6:06Billy Corgan?

  So I looked up your birthday.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:08Billy Corgan?

  September 7th.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 6:10Billy Corgan?

  And it said this, I thought this was funny. Visionaries and ready to act on impulse as long as their instincts are nurtured as they grow up. I'll say it again. Visionaries, so your, your date, birthday is September 7th. Visionaries and ready to act on impulse as long as their instincts are nurtured as they grow up.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  I'm not sure if the last part of it makes sense, cause I don't know how nurtured I was growing up.

• 6:32Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's kinda what I was getting at. You know, there's these apocryphal stories that you read and of course I want your version, but this idea that your father was more supportive of your interest in music than your mother and...

• 6:44Speaker 02

  My dad, my dad was really supportive. My mom was like, how are you gonna, how are you gonna make a living doing that? You know, and I grew up really literally a mile away from where we're sitting right now.

• 6:51Billy Corgan?

  It's pretty cool.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  So weird.

• 6:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  But yeah, you know. I mean, the chances of, look, same with you. Like, what are the chances that we would, that you'd be successful?

• 7:03Billy Corgan?

  There's zero.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  You know, I don't know, I didn't have anybody in my family that was in music. You know, my dad sold insurance.

• 7:10Billy Corgan?

  See, my father was a musician, but he didn't want me to play music. So it worked the opposite. Everybody assumed he would be supportive, and he was totally not supportive.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  Because it was probably hard for him, and he didn't want you to have that life.

• 7:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, and other reasons, but it's not important. So, describe for me, here we are in Van Nuys. Describe for me Van Nuys, sort of mid-sixties. Because, you know, in Chicago, we have such a Beach Boy version of California.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 7:36Billy Corgan?

  But give me your version, in your teen.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  I'm just hanging out with my friends, getting stoned all the time. You talking about like when I was a little kid, or when I was about...

• 7:47Billy Corgan?

  I guess I'm looking for when you really started in, you know, let's call it 10, 12, 14, when music becomes sort of central to your identity.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  Well, I was obsessed with music before I even, you know...

• 7:57Billy Corgan?

  At what age?

• 7:58Speaker 02

  Seeing The Beatles.

• 8:00Billy Corgan?

  So you saw The Beatles?

• 8:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, Ed Sullivan. But I saw them in person, too, because I have older sisters.

• 8:04Billy Corgan?

  Was it Santa Monica Civic or something?

• 8:06Speaker 02

  I saw them at the Hollywood Bowl and Dodger Stadium.

• 8:08Billy Corgan?

  Ah, you saw the Hollywood Bowl?

• 8:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember a lot of screaming. But I remember making my mom buy me "Meet the Beatles" after seeing them on that. So I think that fuse lit everybody, you know.

• 8:20Billy Corgan?

  It lit a lot of people, yeah.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  And, you know, I was obsessed with music, and I got to hear everything growing up in my house. You know, my parents listened to show tunes, I had older sisters.

• 8:31Billy Corgan?

  The show tunes I can hear in your writing.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  Which is weird, because I don't really hear that, but it's an interesting thing.

• 8:35Billy Corgan?

  I can hear it, but the other thing is, it's also in McCartney's writing, too. You know, he had a lot of show tunes. I guess, I would say it's, maybe it's not...

• 8:43Speaker 02

  A melody thing, it's a melody thing.

• 8:45Billy Corgan?

  But also, the melody tells a story?

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Right, I see that, I see that. But anyways, when I was 11, my dad got me a little guitar from Tijuana. I started making up songs. And he was taking me to a guitar teacher, and the guitar teacher wanted me to learn scales. I think it was... It was somewhere on Balboa and Devonshire, so it was around here too, it's so weird. And he told my dad not to bring me back, because I had no future in music. Because I didn't want to learn the scales, I wanted to make up my own songs. So that's when I started getting the bug, you know, to write.

• 9:16Billy Corgan?

  Do you remember like a first song?

• 9:18Speaker 02

  Not exactly, I remember some of the old songs, but not the exact first one.

• 9:22Billy Corgan?

  Right, and who would you have been listening to?

• 9:25Speaker 02

  To the, to the radio.

• 9:26Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so whatever was on in-

• 9:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, because radio when I grew up, it was like, KRLA, KFWB, KHJ, they played everything. So it wasn't like so fragmented like it is now.

• 9:36Billy Corgan?

  Well, the pop radio at the time was pretty sophisticated.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you could hear everything, you could hear the Beatles, you could hear Motown.

• 9:42Billy Corgan?

  Petula Clark.

• 9:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, Downtown, great song.

• 9:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I just heard it the other day, it's such a cool song.

• 9:47Speaker 02

  It's a great key change of course.

• 9:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, right.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  But, so I got to hear, it was like getting this masterclass of songwriting. Because to me, that was the golden age. I love the Brill Building, that era.

• 9:57Billy Corgan?

  So, was your father's support in hindsight, just an act of loyalty? Because it meant something to you, or do you think he saw something in you?

• 10:04Speaker 02

  I think he saw something in me.

• 10:06Billy Corgan?

  Can you try to define that a bit?

• 10:07Speaker 02

  I don't, it's hard to define, I think my dad was, you know, like after he retired, he worked, would work with actors at this place called the Mego Theater down, it was on, what was it, Satoy around White Oak. And I think my dad was like a frustrated performer almost, or something, you know, like he, anyways, but he, yeah, he totally, you know, supported me. He would take me to publishers and stuff, and I was like an arrogant little asshole.

• 10:33Billy Corgan?

  But how old is he taking?

• 10:34Speaker 02

  About fifteen or sixteen.

• 10:35Billy Corgan?

  That's a pretty-

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:37Billy Corgan?

  Tell me a story like going to see a publisher, because this is-

• 10:40Speaker 02

  Let me see, one time, this is funny, so I was like, probably about seventeen, sixteen or seventeen. My dad took me to see a publisher, you know, and the guy, he liked my songs, but he didn't, you know, he said, "Well, you know, why don't you go in the studio, do some demos." And my dad goes, "If you, if you like them so [bleep] much, why aren't you spending your money?" I'll never forget that, you know, but, you know, and then I made my dad get me a subscription to Billboard, where I studied everything, you know, who wrote everything, who produced-

• 11:09Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so when you started doing that?

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:11Billy Corgan?

  Because I started doing that too, around a similar age, it was like- Who's really running this thing, right? Like, did you start to see songwriters? You know, like, you see Carole King's name and you start, you know, did you?

• 11:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would see different names, you know.

• 11:23Billy Corgan?

  But who sticks out in your mind that?

• 11:26Speaker 02

  Well, seeing Goffin King was one of the first things I ever saw in a single that when I said I want to be in that parentheses.

• 11:32Billy Corgan?

  Even sounds good, right?

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, Goffin King. I mean, like, I knew Carole King more as a songwriter from Tapestry.

• 11:38Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  But, because that building era to me is like the greatest, you know, songs ever.

• 11:45Billy Corgan?

  Amazing.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  You know.

• 11:46Billy Corgan?

  It's a kind of a fantasy, right? Like, to go back in the time machine and just be in that building?

• 11:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, those little cubicles. That's why I like to be in little, like, that's why I like my room. You know, I kind of feel like I created my own version of it.

• 11:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. But are there any other writers, whether, I mean, you might not have been conscious of them at the time, but are there writers looking back or even then that really stick out in your mind?

• 12:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you know, I loved all the Holland, Dozier Holland songs, all the Motown songs, all the, like, you know, I would, yeah, you know, people like that. And then I would just, you know, really get into, you know, like, I hated school. I failed everything, you know, basically.

• 12:22Billy Corgan?

  But when I was just, you're obviously bright, so was disinterested in it?

• 12:26Speaker 02

  And I didn't give a shit.

• 12:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  You know, but when you find what you, probably like you, when you find music or you find something you love.

• 12:32Billy Corgan?

  I was it, I was off, like.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like, okay, like, I want to know everything. I want to know, and I just, yeah, I would just study everything.

• 12:40Billy Corgan?

  This is a bit of an esoteric question, but in your mind, is there a sort of a California dream? I mean, you grew up.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  I grew up here, so I could see it from the outside, I guess it is. Like, you think it's like, probably like Beach Boys and I'm around the beach. And I, no, I mean, we were in the valley, me and my friends, you know, we had our little, you know, group of weirdos, you know? I mean, you know?

• 13:01Speaker 02

  So it was, you know, it wasn't like, we thought the California dream because we were, not that we were living the California dream, we just were like valley kids.

• 13:09Billy Corgan?

  Sure. Yeah, I think it's hard because... Back in Chicago, through the prism of television, this looked like this magical.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  Right, it's almost like how Hollywood looks outside.

• 13:19Billy Corgan?

  Oh, absolutely.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  When you're in Hollywood.

• 13:20Billy Corgan?

  It looks so.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  Like glamorous.

• 13:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  And cool or whatever.

• 13:24Billy Corgan?

  But that's what I love about you saying your dad took you to publishers. Like, he was like, "Let's get in, in there."

• 13:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:30Billy Corgan?

  Because that's where you would go, that's where he would take you.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  And then there was this thing called the songwriter showcase that my dad would take me to.

• 13:35Billy Corgan?

  Tell me, let's explain that.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  It was Len Chandler and John Brahaney where they, they had a showcase that they'd showcase for publishers and stuff. And my dad would take me there. He first took me when I was like 15 and I was like, they didn't really like the songs I first brought them. And I'd argue and say, "You don't know what you're talking about." I was such an arrogant little brat, you know? And then my dad would, you know, go, "You need to listen to them." And they'd go, "Mr. Warren, you go in the other room." And then, you know, they'd talk to me and then I'd come back the next week with five more songs. I kept coming back. And then finally, you know, I, you know, I got to be on their showcase. I was like 16 years old or something, you know? But, you know, I don't know, I'm, I'm always someone that, that keeps coming back. So.

• 14:16Billy Corgan?

  It's the title of your documentary.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  Relentless, yeah.

• 14:19Billy Corgan?

  Relentless.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  Yes, I am relentless.

• 14:21Billy Corgan?

  At what age did you think, "Okay, I can do this"? This is like my thing.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  Oh, I thought I could do this when I had no reason to. Like, I'd be like, I, I thought I was great when I wasn't. But I think you have to have that, you know? You have to have a little bit of that kind of self deception, you know?

• 14:37Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so what makes you great?

• 14:39Speaker 02

  I don't, I mean, what makes anybody great is, I don't know, hard work and talent.

• 14:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  And you can't have one without the other.

• 14:46Billy Corgan?

  Absolutely.

• 14:47Speaker 02

  Talent without work doesn't mean [BLEEP]. Work without, hard work without talent doesn't mean [BLEEP]. But if you.

• 14:52Billy Corgan?

  So you had the drive innately?

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 14:56Billy Corgan?

  So once you found that thing, you were like?

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is it. And I'm, and I'm still as driven and hungry as I am ever, like now.

• 15:04Billy Corgan?

  That, to me, is impressive.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  You know, yeah, I don't, I never, like, I don't, my rearview mirror, it doesn't work, so I just, I don't look at it.

• 15:10Billy Corgan?

  Because you're, you know, your, your chops haven't been in dispute for a long, long time.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  And I can always get better, so I always want to get better, what I do.

• 15:16Billy Corgan?

  That's what impresses me as a fellow writer, is like, you just won't give it up.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 15:22Billy Corgan?

  Like, there's no resting on the laurels.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  No.

• 15:25Billy Corgan?

  It's impressive.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  No, I don't even know where the laurels are.

• 15:27Billy Corgan?

  I think it's your most admirable quality, because talent is a weird thing, whether you want to argue is given to us, or, you know what I mean?

• 15:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:34Billy Corgan?

  We were sort of hit with a wand somewhere on, coming down.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  Somewhere, yeah.

• 15:38Billy Corgan?

  But the rest of it is really up to us.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  Up to us, yeah. And up to, you have a gift, but it's what you do with it.

• 15:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Did you, because of that environment, that late 60s, early 70s environment, did you see that being a woman in the music business on the production, writing side was gonna work against you?

• 16:00Speaker 02

  No, I mean, first of all, I never got the memo, because I'm a woman, I couldn't do something, you know?

• 16:04Billy Corgan?

  No, I don't mean it that way, I'm just talking about the culture around you.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  Oh, no, I never, to be, well, I never wanted to be a producer anyways.

• 16:12Billy Corgan?

  But did you feel there was any prohibition?

• 16:14Speaker 02

  No, because it was, I didn't feel there was a prohibition, because it was never anything I desired. You know what I mean? I just wanted to write, and I never felt, like, I never felt, because I was a girl, that it was gonna be harder. I think, I think if I was a-

• 16:27Billy Corgan?

  I didn't mean like, maybe I'm not phrasing it, I mean along the sense of like, if, if, if a, if a young man walks in an office in 1972 versus a young woman walking in an office in 1972.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:39Billy Corgan?

  By and large, the history of this business is the man would have a better opportunity to be heard, listened to, supported.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  Oh, I see that.

• 16:46Billy Corgan?

  Than the female writer on the business side, you know what I mean? Meaning like, because the business of making music is its own business.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:53Billy Corgan?

  You know, you own your publishing and all that type of stuff, right?

• 16:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:57Billy Corgan?

  I just was wondering if there was any, you felt any of that coming in?

• 17:00Speaker 02

  I didn't really feel any of that.

• 17:01Billy Corgan?

  That's amazing, yeah.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  No, I didn't.

• 17:02Billy Corgan?

  Maybe that's just your-

• 17:03Speaker 02

  I think it's also different if you're an artist, if you were being a female artist, that what might be, you know, a different kind of thing, I'm thinking.

• 17:12Billy Corgan?

  I don't know, yeah.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  You know, but I never, I just-

• 17:14Billy Corgan?

  That's why I asked the question, because I assume things, but I, sometimes I think it just might be in my own head, this like, I'm imagining-

• 17:20Speaker 02

  Probably, I mean, it's a legitimate question.

• 17:25Billy Corgan?

  So, when you start to enter into like, let's call it the professional side of the equation.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:29Billy Corgan?

  What's the first time you're like, okay, I'm here, I'm in this weird Willy Wonka world of now I'm a writer, now I'm... What's like, for you, what's the first like stake in the ground that you see?

• 17:39Speaker 02

  Like that, that I, well, I always thought I could do this, you know, and make a living at it, like again.

• 17:43Billy Corgan?

  You made that clear.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Okay, but the first time I, like, it was like, wow, I, I have a hit record was "Rhythm of the Night."

• 17:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's like 85, 85.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  Eighty-five, like forty years ago this year, so weird. I was like five when I wrote it. I was such a prodigy. Yeah, so that was...

• 18:00Billy Corgan?

  Great song.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Thank you, yeah, it's...

• 18:02Billy Corgan?

  My father used to cover it, you know.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  No, how cool is that? Wow, what did your dad play?

• 18:08Billy Corgan?

  Guitar.

• 18:08Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 18:09Billy Corgan?

  It was more of a, he could play lead, no problem, but he was a great rhythm player.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  Wow, that's so cool.

• 18:14Billy Corgan?

  So he liked anything that had a good...

• 18:16Speaker 02

  Rhythm?

• 18:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  I think I'd just gotten my drum machine, a Lin drum, is that what it would have been at the time?

• 18:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  And I was like playing around with, that's how, that's how that song started.

• 18:26Billy Corgan?

  So describe the music world, let's, because I'm always interested in what it felt like. So it's one thing to say, you know, I wrote the song, it was a big song, 1985, but it's another thing like, what did it feel like to you, that environment? Because the music business back then was smaller than it is today, less corporate than it is today, maybe a little bit more Wild West, free for all.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  Well, I was signed to, you know, this German publisher, his name was Jack White, not White Stripes, Jack White. So, it was like my first publishing deal.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  You know, so I was kind of, I don't know if I'm answering the question, but...

• 19:03Billy Corgan?

  It's just, I'm just trying to get a sense from you, like a snapshot of what...

• 19:06Speaker 02

  Of those days, of those days? Like, it seemed a lot more fun, like, you know, like, you know, that era.

• 19:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying, yeah.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Before it got really corporate, yeah.

• 19:17Billy Corgan?

  That's kind of what I'm out there.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  And then later on, I became, a couple of my friends were in promotion, record promotion. So, I would go out with them and, you know, to, remember La Dome back in the day?

• 19:27Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  You know, and all those places that were like just. And I wasn't really a partier. I was, you know, I wanted to get to work the next day. And I'd be staying at my friend's house, you know, and getting ready to get up to work. And, you know, her roommate would be coming. They were all coked out of their minds. You know, coming back in the morning and, I don't know. Those were crazy days.

• 19:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. That's kind of what I'm after. It's just like, it's important sometimes because especially, I think, for young people, especially people looking into getting into the business, whether it's as an artist or a writer. They're presented such a corporate, wound up, weird business.

• 20:02Speaker 02

  Must be weird to get in now where it's like, all like about, all about TikTok.

• 20:06Billy Corgan?

  That's what I'm trying to say.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  Like, would the best, greatest artists in the world be signed now? Would Prince be signed? You know, if his TikTok numbers aren't high?

• 20:14Billy Corgan?

  Right, would he have to do silly stuff to?

• 20:16Speaker 02

  Probably, which is so, it's so sad.

• 20:18Billy Corgan?

  That's kind of what I'm after. It's like, like, you, you saw it.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  I see, so I, I grew up, I came up when it wasn't like that. And I'll be in the studios, I work with a lot of young artists. And I'll be like, oh, so why aren't they promoting that song? Oh, and it's a great song, it's a great record. Oh, the TikTok numbers aren't high. Oh, the data, like, you know, the data that matters is, does it make your, the hair on your arm stand up? Does it make you feel something?

• 20:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  And it's, it's so, it's so tech, um, data, you know, it's just, it's, it's the antithesis of.

• 20:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's, it's not a harp. It's more of like, it's, I think it's important to illustrate that the business that you and I came up in had a different sense of opportunity, which is like, if you were willing to go for it and you got it done and you had the gift to do it, it, doors would open. Now, imagine you get.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Well, doors can open, but if your TikTok numbers aren't high.

• 21:06Billy Corgan?

  But that's what I, that's what's so crazy.

• 21:08Speaker 02

  Like, like, within the Springsteen days, where they'd wait to, I think it was his second album that broke, you know? It wouldn't have even been a second single.

• 21:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I mean.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  They would have dropped him.

• 21:17Billy Corgan?

  I'm sure you've heard those stories where, uh, major labels in this town will sign artists solely on their numbers. They don't even care if they can sing.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  I, I work with some of these, I've worked with some of them. You know, yes, and it's like, oh, my God, you just, it was like, like, like some kind of viral TikTok thing. That was lightning in a bottle. You, this isn't real, a real artist. It's like, they're not gonna last.

• 21:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  You know, and I, yeah, I, I deal with that sometimes.

• 21:46Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Um, I'm curious of.

• 21:50Billy Corgan?

  Was there a point where you made the decision, I don't want to be the person behind the microphone, I want to be the person?

• 21:55Speaker 02

  Oh, I always knew I didn't want to be the person behind the microphone. I always knew I just wanted to write.

• 22:00Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 22:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:01Billy Corgan?

  So somehow I got the sense that at some point there was a moment where you...

• 22:04Speaker 02

  No.

• 22:05Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Again, maybe I made that up.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  No, I've never been a frustrated artist. I never, I, no. But I did start a record that I might finish just for the [bleep] of it. Like, not that I care about it, but, like, I, no, I like being, I'm very happy behind the scenes with better singers singing my songs.

• 22:21Billy Corgan?

  Is there a frustration, though, that comes in when you know you've got a song, and you can hear it in your mind, and you trust it, and then the person singing it doesn't have the right understanding of it? It's not the right voice, this, the...

• 22:33Speaker 02

  It's happened. It's happened.

• 22:35Billy Corgan?

  But is that frustra...

• 22:36Speaker 02

  And then once it's a hit, I'm like, well, it's the right voice.

• 22:39Billy Corgan?

  But what I'm saying is, in my mind, I go back to, you know, I'm always oriented to, I gotta sing my own song.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. You're lucky, you're a great singer.

• 22:47Billy Corgan?

  Well, God bless you.

• 22:48Speaker 02

  You know, I'm like, you know, Blanche Dubois, "Streetcar Named Desire", I always depend on the kindness of strangers.

• 22:55Billy Corgan?

  Don't make me laugh.

• 22:58Billy Corgan?

  Do you, do you write with singers in mind when you, when you're...

• 23:00Speaker 02

  You know, no, I try to write the best song I can write. And then, I, then I, then, like, a lot of my songs go different ways, but like, I just try to write a great song, but then, as I'm writing it, I'm thinking, oh, that could be right for so-and-so, or that, or someone like, I never thought of, like, Steven Tyler, like, "I Don't Want to Miss a Thing", like, I never in a million years thought Steven Tyler would be, A, would ever do my song.

• 23:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  You know, and B, would, you know, that that would have been a song for him. But now I can't imagine anybody else.

• 23:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's just, it's the idea of, um, when you're writing, you know, in my mind, you would always be the star of the movie, right? Is that fair?

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Depends on what movie.

• 23:43Billy Corgan?

  Right, but I'm saying is I'm not trying to project because again, it's all respect with your gift. It's just trying to understand because you've written so many great songs and you had such great success, I feel like there's gotta be some consistent voice in there, even if it's eternal. Does that make sense?

• 24:00Speaker 02

  You mean like a voice I'm hearing? Because I wrote so many different genres of songs. Like, you know, I go from, like I just did something with Angelique Kidjo, then I'll go from that to, you know, 88, then I'll go to...

• 24:13Billy Corgan?

  We're getting to the list of people that have recorded your songs.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  So it's not one, in other words, so it's not one voice. It's kind of whatever voice is right for that song.

• 24:23Billy Corgan?

  So I must be projecting. I just imagine...

• 24:25Speaker 02

  No, it's interesting. I mean, there are good questions.

• 24:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I'm just curious, like, who's singing when you're writing?

• 24:32Speaker 02

  Well, sadly, it's me.

• 24:34Billy Corgan?

  But that's, but...

• 24:36Speaker 02

  Because I'm the one in the room.

• 24:37Billy Corgan?

  But we've all had that experience of we're totally into a song and we record it and we feel it.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:46Billy Corgan?

  And then we listen back and go, "Oh, my God, like, who's singing the song?" The voice in the head, for me, is always stronger than this voice.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  But you can really see, I don't like to listen to myself sing. So sometimes I'm writing, I pretend I'm somebody else.

• 24:58Billy Corgan?

  That's kind of what I'm after. That's what I'm saying.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  I don't know, but it just...

• 25:01Billy Corgan?

  Is it characters you can play, you know?

• 25:04Speaker 02

  Well, no, it's like, it might be an artist. It might be when I'm writing, I'm like imagining someone doing it. But then I come back to earth and I have to hear me.

• 25:11Billy Corgan?

  Are you the type of writer that you go in thinking, "I want to write a great song," or "I want to write a great single," or is it...

• 25:20Speaker 02

  I just try to, I want to write a great song. Hopefully, it's a great single, too.

• 25:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because your success at writing singles is...

• 25:28Speaker 02

  But you never know what's gonna, like, some things, you never know.

• 25:31Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so is there a song...

• 25:33Speaker 02

  I just try to write great songs. I want them to sound like they could be hits. I want them to all connect. I want them to write songs that can...

• 25:38Billy Corgan?

  But is there a song that we would know that you thought, "I really love this song. I don't think it'll ever be a single," and it became a big success?

• 25:45Speaker 02

  I have to think. Anytime that any of them are successful, I'm always shocked, to be honest, because everything can work against it.

• 25:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  You know, so when one comes through, it's like, "Oh, my God, what didn't [bleep] up there?" You know?

• 25:58Billy Corgan?

  So when you start having hits, 85, right, does the phone start ringing?

• 26:04Speaker 02

  People started liking songs that they didn't like a week... I remember that.

• 26:09Billy Corgan?

  I love this town.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  You know, yeah, right? And then the ones that go-

• 26:12Billy Corgan?

  Suddenly you're a genius. Suddenly now you're a genius.

• 26:14Speaker 02

  And all the ones that didn't want to sign you go, "Oh, my God, I always believed in you," and stuff. But it's OK, you know? You just smile and go, "Yeah, you do."

• 26:22Billy Corgan?

  Can you write to order?

• 26:25Speaker 02

  I can, if I have to, you know?

• 26:28Billy Corgan?

  Just walk me through-

• 26:29Speaker 02

  I mean, right now I have a TV show that I helped develop that's a big Disney, you know, music show. I co-created it.

• 26:36Billy Corgan?

  Is it out yet, or?

• 26:37Speaker 02

  It's being filmed now. So it's about three young girls.

• 26:40Billy Corgan?

  Can you say you share the name, or?

• 26:41Speaker 02

  Well, it's called "How We Became the Biggest Band in the World." So it's about these three girls. They meet in junior high and they become-

• 26:47Billy Corgan?

  So you're writing to the characters?

• 26:48Speaker 02

  So, yes, I'm writing songs for them. But I'm writing hit songs that are authentic to who they are, you know?

• 26:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:55Speaker 02

  So it is kind of writing to order, you know?

• 26:59Billy Corgan?

  This is a totally self-indulgent question. Do you have a favorite key to write in?

• 27:04Speaker 02

  Hmm. I kind of tend, I like D.

• 27:08Billy Corgan?

  I had a feeling.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, isn't that weird? Maybe it's because my name starts with a D. No, I'm just kidding. I don't know. I think we, you know, on the guitar, C and G. I mean, all those normal keys. But, you know, I like D-flat. I've written some good songs in D-flat.

• 27:22Billy Corgan?

  It has a different, it has a sorrow to it? Do you feel that?

• 27:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, darker.

• 27:26Billy Corgan?

  Right, even if it's major?

• 27:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's dark, it's a little dark.

• 27:29Billy Corgan?

  It feels a bit dark, yeah.

• 27:32Billy Corgan?

  I know you don't just write alone, but-

• 27:34Speaker 02

  Well, I basically do.

• 27:36Billy Corgan?

  I was getting there. But my point is, is there a inner reason? Or that's just, again, your comfort?

• 27:43Speaker 02

  It's just what I, yeah, it's where I'm comfortable. I like taking something from nothing and building on it. Like, we're world builders in a way, right?

• 27:51Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  You know, like, every song is a world. And it has its own laws and its own rules. It only fit that. And I love doing that. I love creating those worlds.

• 28:00Billy Corgan?

  So, not in the, like, we're sitting in front of a bunch of kids, like, they want to write songs.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:07Billy Corgan?

  Like, to a pro like me. Like, what's your most sage writing advice? Do you have, like...

• 28:12Speaker 02

  I mean, my advice for anything, if you want to succeed, is show up.

• 28:16Billy Corgan?

  Right. Well, you've showed up.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, you gotta show up. You gotta show up and work.

• 28:21Billy Corgan?

  I always say, I always say my personal breakthrough, and I want to ask yours. My personal breakthrough was when I allowed myself to write a bad song.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Well, yeah. I mean, you know, I think I've allowed that to happen. I try not to now, but I try not to write a bad song, but, you know...

• 28:37Billy Corgan?

  But was there a moment where you felt this breaking open of the doors? Does that make sense?

• 28:43Speaker 02

  In terms of...

• 28:44Billy Corgan?

  You know, like, there are those periods when we're learning, like, oh, Lennon McCartney wrote this kind of cool intro, and you kind of learn it and go, oh, okay, now I understand why they did it that way.

• 28:55Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 28:55Billy Corgan?

  There's the mechanical part of learning the chop.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:58Billy Corgan?

  And then there comes a point where it's like, you're writing your song.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:03Billy Corgan?

  Was there a sort of personal breakthrough where you felt that?

• 29:06Speaker 02

  I mean, like, learning someone else's song?

• 29:07Billy Corgan?

  No, I meant like more and along the lines of like...

• 29:10Speaker 02

  A breakthrough of going to another level of writing?

• 29:13Billy Corgan?

  Yes, where you're like, okay, now I'm writing my songs. Like, this is what I envisioned. I'm writing it. It exists, and now it is in the world.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Well, I'll give an example. I mean, I don't know if I'm answering your question, but when I wrote that song, when I wrote "Because You Loved Me",

• 29:29Billy Corgan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 29:29Speaker 02

  I was like, this is a whole different level of my writing. And when I wrote it, I go, this song's better than me, and I have to catch up to that song.

• 29:37Billy Corgan?

  That's kind of what I mean. So what about...

• 29:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, I go, this is, well, how did I write that? And I have to catch up to that because that's just one to other.

• 29:44Billy Corgan?

  For people who don't know writing, can you break that down a little?

• 29:47Speaker 02

  I don't even know how to break it down. I just, it was the level...

• 29:50Billy Corgan?

  Was it identifying an emotional part of you that you had?

• 29:53Speaker 02

  No, it was just the craft of it or something. It just was, it was just, I don't know. It just, I felt like it was, like, I don't analyze stuff. I just kind of do.

• 30:03Billy Corgan?

  I'm a nerd, so I apologize.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  No, it's okay. It's okay. I just don't really sit in it, and like, I just knew, I just knew that, that, you know, when you get that feeling, you know, it's like, it's a breakthrough.

• 30:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I feel... I feel the best writers don't analyze.

• 30:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know how, because I have no, I have no clue how I do what I do. So I just show up.

• 30:22Billy Corgan?

  I spend all my time trying to figure out how I do what I do.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  That's all right.

• 30:26Billy Corgan?

  This is, this is a fun list. It's long, but it, I think it's important because for those who don't know why we're here. These are some of, some of the people that have, have recorded songs of yours. Bette Midler, Stevie B, Celine Dion, Cheap Trick, En Vogue, Whitney Houston, Belinda Carlisle, Taylor Dane, Britney Spears, Marsha Hines, Alice Cooper, Christina Aguilera, Beyonce, TLC, Elia, right?

• 30:52Speaker 02

  Elia.

• 30:53Billy Corgan?

  Elia, sorry. Heart, Agnetha Faltersong, is that, is that from ABBA?

• 30:57Speaker 02

  One of the ABBA girls.

• 30:58Billy Corgan?

  I know, so what a voice.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  But you're going in the, in the old days, a lot of those, but.

• 31:02Billy Corgan?

  I'm just going what's on the paper. Elton John, Cher, Tina Turner, Bryan Adams, Selena, Jessica Simpson, Air Supply, Olivia Newton-John, Barbra Streisand, Aretha Franklin, Roberta Flack, Roy Orbison, Trisha Yearwood, Patti LaBelle, Michael Bolton, NSYNC, Renee Frogger, Gloria Estefan, Reba McEntire, Enrique Iglesias, Paloma Faith, Russell Watson, Rod Stewart, Aerosmith, The Cult, Kiss, Ricky Martin, Monica Faithfull, Meatloaf, Sugar Babes, Mariah Carey, Toni Braxton. I mean, it's just.

• 31:33Speaker 02

  There's a lot of people on there.

• 31:35Billy Corgan?

  Lady Gaga, I mean, Starship, Weezer, Joe Cocker, Milli Vanilli, I mean, it's just.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  Lady Gaga.

• 31:43Billy Corgan?

  And this is, this is like, this is just like part of the iceberg.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's.

• 31:48Billy Corgan?

  So I, I, you know, I, obviously I want to flatter you, but.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  You don't have to flatter me.

• 31:53Billy Corgan?

  I like flattering you.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  No. Okay, then if you flatter me, I have to flatter you.

• 31:59Billy Corgan?

  It's just, it's just such a rare list of accomplishment.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 32:04Billy Corgan?

  Do you feel that?

• 32:05Speaker 02

  It's, I mean, I don't think about it. I, I kind of forgot some of those people on the list. I'm like, Renee Frogger was, but, but.

• 32:13Billy Corgan?

  Well, is it 1500 songs at this point?

• 32:15Speaker 02

  Although.

• 32:16Billy Corgan?

  You're, you're up in Irving Berlin territory of first songs written.

• 32:20Speaker 02

  Probably, I'm, I'm, I've written a lot of songs.

• 32:22Billy Corgan?

  That's what the internet says, 1500.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  Wow, and I like, I'm Irving Berlinsy hero, so.

• 32:28Billy Corgan?

  You know, he could only play the black keys.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  I know, and he, he had that thing on his piano, isn't that weird?

• 32:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think he played in, what, was it in D flat or something?

• 32:36Billy Corgan?

  Well, he would have either been playing in, in, in, in, in, E flat, or D sharp, however you want to say it. I didn't, I'm not trained.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, me.

• 32:45Billy Corgan?

  Or F sharp. So he's basically playing F sharp, E or C sharp.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Right, wow, and he just never bothered to learn how to play in different keys.

• 32:53Billy Corgan?

  How do you write like that, right?

• 32:54Speaker 02

  I don't know, it's like, right now you just press a button, fuck it.

• 33:00Billy Corgan?

  Nine number one songs?

• 33:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:03Billy Corgan?

  You?

• 33:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I'm tied, me and Lionel Richie, with the most number ones, solo written.

• 33:08Billy Corgan?

  Look out Lionel, but a, what a right, what a great writer too, wow.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, fuck yeah.

• 33:13Billy Corgan?

  Like.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Great, great writer, great guy too, real nice guy.

• 33:16Billy Corgan?

  It's, it's, it's my parlance, but I, you know, when people can write like you, I call you assassins, you guys are assassins.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  I like that, someone else called me an assassin.

• 33:23Billy Corgan?

  You're an assassin.

• 33:24Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 33:25Billy Corgan?

  I mean, you are a song assassin, I love it.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 33:28Billy Corgan?

  I love it.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  Someone, like, not that long ago called me a trained assassin, I like that.

• 33:33Billy Corgan?

  Recently, in an interview with a, a, a fellow musician, I, I was using the analogy of like, you know, the gunfighters in the movies?

• 33:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:39Billy Corgan?

  Like, and, you know, like, I'd be afraid to face you on the street, you know?

• 33:44Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 33:44Billy Corgan?

  Cause you're an assassin.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  I know, but you, you, you probably are too, and you'd probably.

• 33:48Billy Corgan?

  I'm, I'm, I'm my own kind of assassin.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  Yes, you'd get me.

• 33:51Billy Corgan?

  Thirty-three top 10 songs.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:56Speaker 02

  Weird, I know.

• 33:57Billy Corgan?

  Is that enough, or?

• 33:58Speaker 02

  No, nothing's enough.

• 33:59Billy Corgan?

  I love it, I love it.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  It's never enough, no.

• 34:02Billy Corgan?

  I gotta tell you one moment that I, that really connects me to you, we, we've met in the past, which was nice, cause I got to talk to you in the past, but this is, let's call it the, the snobby musician not really understanding how great you were until this moment.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  Oh, oh wow, you a snobby musician?

• 34:20Billy Corgan?

  I'm a totally snobby musician.

• 34:22Speaker 02

  It's okay, so, but you're talking to me, and I'm like the most uncool person in the world.

• 34:28Billy Corgan?

  Listen. You're a lot cooler than you think you are. I mean,

• 34:32Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 34:32Billy Corgan?

  When you can do what you can do, it's pretty cool to me. So I don't care what anybody thinks.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  Well, I think you're cool too. But you really are cool.

• 34:38Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. God bless you. But, okay, so let me tell you this moment.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 34:41Billy Corgan?

  So I don't remember where it was. It was some MTV thing. Could have been the Grammys. I don't remember. And it was when the Aerosmith song.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. 1998. I Don't Want to Miss a Thing.

• 34:51Billy Corgan?

  I Don't Want to Miss a Thing. And like a lot of old school Aerosmith fans, I was kind of condemnatory of ballad Aerosmith.

• 34:58Speaker 02

  Oh, right.

• 34:59Billy Corgan?

  It felt like it was this.

• 35:00Speaker 02

  Aerosmith did a Diane Warren song. They sold out.

• 35:04Billy Corgan?

  Well, I was probably one of those snobby rock fans saying the same thing. And, you know, remember they used to do that skit on SNL where it would be like, I think Adam Sandler, where he would sing like seven different Aerosmith ballads?

• 35:14Speaker 02

  Oh, I didn't see that, though.

• 35:16Billy Corgan?

  It was kind of a funny skit. He would sing Cryin' and then like, it was just like they would just play the same song, you know, musically, and he would sing the lyrics to like seven different Aerosmith ballads. So by the time it got to the song, that it was from the movie, I can't remember.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Armageddon.

• 35:32Billy Corgan?

  Armageddon.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:33Billy Corgan?

  Huge movie, huge moment. And, you know, it's one of those things like when you're at one of those award shows, I was like in the seventh row. And I could see Steven, who I didn't know then, and I don't know him now, but I've met him since. But I saw him on the side of the stage getting ready, you know, typical musician, kind of pacing around.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:51Billy Corgan?

  And he's chewing gum, like, right? And then, you know, you could see somebody coming over going like, you know, you know, we're about to go.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 35:59Billy Corgan?

  He spits out his gum, and he steps up, and that performance was just, I was like, and then for the first time.

• 36:07Speaker 02

  It was probably the Grammys, right?

• 36:08Billy Corgan?

  Yes. But for the first time, that's the last time they invited me to the Grammys, by the way.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  So I didn't go either.

• 36:16Billy Corgan?

  Exactly.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 36:17Billy Corgan?

  Well, we'll get to it.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  I'd rather go to the Oscars.

• 36:19Billy Corgan?

  God bless. Uh, we'll get to that too. But um, for the first time, I found myself going, "Who the [__] wrote this song?"

• 36:30Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 36:31Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 36:32Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 36:33Billy Corgan?

  As a musician, right? Like, as a snobby musician, I'm like...

• 36:36Speaker 02

  I can hate that, but...

• 36:37Billy Corgan?

  Well, I'm not the biggest fan of that type of music. It's just the way I am.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I get it.

• 36:42Billy Corgan?

  It's nothing personal, but I'm watching him kill this vocal.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, oh.

• 36:46Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 36:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:47Billy Corgan?

  And so, the first thing I did was, "Who wrote this song?"

• 36:51Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 36:51Billy Corgan?

  And then I saw your name. Now, I knew your name, you know what I mean? Because you're just, you're in the ether. But then I started going, "Oh, she wrote that song, and she wrote that song, and she wrote that song." And then it was like, okay.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  And I hate them all, she wrote those songs.

• 37:04Billy Corgan?

  But that, but, but since that moment, I've paid attention because I was like, because I was like, "Okay, this person knows what they're doing."

• 37:11Speaker 02

  Sometimes, yeah.

• 37:12Billy Corgan?

  Well, Major League Baseball, you've only got to get three hits out of 10 and you're, you're a star.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 37:19Billy Corgan?

  They're paying you a billion dollars. Okay, 16 Academy Award nominations.

• 37:25Speaker 02

  I'm on 16 right now.

• 37:27Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  And ask me how many I've won.

• 37:31Billy Corgan?

  Well, one of my nicknames is Zero, so I think it's Zero.

• 37:34Speaker 02

  I think that should be my nickname too. Oh, yeah, no, but it's great, it's, it is, I mean, this is cliche, but it's just great to be just nominated, but it really is, especially with Oscars.

• 37:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but come on.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  No, but there's only five songs. They only pick five out of...

• 37:49Billy Corgan?

  But you wrote all of them, that's the problem.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  But, well, I wrote one of five, 16 times.

• 37:54Billy Corgan?

  Maybe that's what it's gonna take, you gotta write all five.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, then, then I would definitely, I would definitely win. No, but this, I'm really excited about this year, this, you know, maybe, maybe it'll happen.

• 38:05Billy Corgan?

  Well...

• 38:06Speaker 02

  It's a really good song.

• 38:07Billy Corgan?

  Hopefully by the time people see this, you have won.

• 38:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, or I'll just...

• 38:11Billy Corgan?

  I'm superstitious, like, I can't pre-congratulate you.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah, don't do that.

• 38:15Billy Corgan?

  Is songwriting therapeutic? Another question I don't like, but...

• 38:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it is, isn't it? Like, don't you feel better when you write and you write something great?

• 38:23Billy Corgan?

  I feel better when I write a good song.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, me too. Even starting one where I just go, "Oh, I [__] love this." Yeah, it's totally therapeutic.

• 38:30Billy Corgan?

  Is it true that, uh... Going to therapy helped you write songs? Is that something?

• 38:36Speaker 02

  It didn't hurt me, you know.

• 38:37Billy Corgan?

  Can you explore that a little bit?

• 38:39Speaker 02

  When I... What happens, I bought David Geffen's house. Like, his little house.

• 38:46Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I was gonna... Because I've been to the other one, so that's why my eyes got really wide.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  The small one, where his boyfriend was living at the time. A while ago, and I tried to negotiate the price down. And he said, "You're crazy, and you need to see my shrink." And she was this woman named Beatrice Foster, and she was kind of this mean Argentinean. But my friends would, you know, people I knew would go, "You know, it's gonna hurt your writing," and all that. And it didn't, you know? It didn't hurt my writing at all.

• 39:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I can't imagine that.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, so...

• 39:14Billy Corgan?

  This is the... This is the... Not the typical, you know, explain it for those in the crowd who don't understand, but it's addressed in your documentary, which, again, I haven't seen yet, but I saw some of the clips. But whether it's Asperger's or on the spectrum or...

• 39:33Speaker 02

  I mean, that shrink, the mean Argentinean one, she's the one who said I have Asperger's. So I never technically was diagnosed. But I think we're probably all on the spectrum that do this.

• 39:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that's kind of why I wanted to ask, because it seems like one of those things where it's like...

• 39:48Speaker 02

  I mean, to sit there and do like, sit and do one line of a song all day long, you have to figure it out. I mean, you gotta be a little bit weird.

• 39:56Billy Corgan?

  Well, I don't know, because I don't feel I'm on the spectrum, and I'm just as...

• 40:03Speaker 02

  Driven and...

• 40:04Billy Corgan?

  Driven and obsessive as you are.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I mean, I think it's... People put names on all these things. I mean, what does that really mean, you know?

• 40:13Billy Corgan?

  Do you have that thing? This is a shop question, but... Like, the song gets in you and it won't, like...

• 40:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:21Billy Corgan?

  Won't leave.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:23Billy Corgan?

  Like, you go to bed...

• 40:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:24Billy Corgan?

  And you wake up, and it's like, "Oh, my God, leave me alone."

• 40:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, that happens. Yeah, it does.

• 40:29Billy Corgan?

  Have you had the thing where you go to bed, and you wake up, and your brain has rearranged the song?

• 40:34Speaker 02

  No, I wish that happened.

• 40:35Billy Corgan?

  That happens to me sometimes.

• 40:36Speaker 02

  That's your lucky...

• 40:37Billy Corgan?

  Which is cool.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  You're lucky.

• 40:38Billy Corgan?

  Because my brain does a better arrangement than I did.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 40:41Billy Corgan?

  So I wake up and I'll...

• 40:42Speaker 02

  You've figured everything out?

• 40:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it solves the problems for me.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  Okay, so I don't have that brain. I wish I did.

• 40:48Billy Corgan?

  It doesn't happen all the time.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  That's amazing.

• 40:50Billy Corgan?

  But have you dreamt songs? Have you had that?

• 40:52Speaker 02

  No, if I've dreamt something, I don't remember it. So I don't, I'm never really, I don't really dream songs to become songs.

• 40:59Billy Corgan?

  I have three or four songs that came out in records that were from dreams.

• 41:02Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 41:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. But they never sound as good on record as they sounded in the dream.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, everything looks better and sounds better in a dream.

• 41:09Billy Corgan?

  In the dream, it's like, oh my god, this is the greatest song ever.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 41:15Billy Corgan?

  I'm not looking for gossip, this is not a gossip show, but I'm curious about...

• 41:18Speaker 02

  I am. You got any?

• 41:20Billy Corgan?

  I'm happy to talk gossip with you. You all talk gossip all day. But this idea of being single, or saying I don't want a relationship, I feel, the way it comes off, the stuff I read, it feels like reductionist or something.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  I don't know, that's just my life. I like to sleep with a cat.

• 41:39Billy Corgan?

  But can the cat write songs?

• 41:41Speaker 02

  No, so she's kind of useless. No, but I could stay awake just to hear her purring. So I really love the Aerosmith song.

• 41:48Billy Corgan?

  Is there any connection, though, with being out of relationship, in the literal sense of the word, that creates an ambiance around love that keeps it in a certain place for you? Because you've written so many love songs.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  Well, I could fall in love in every song, because I could be in that character. And then I'm out of it, and I'm on the next one, and I can write a you song now. And I can write, you know, it's just, yeah, I've never got the memo, I had to be in a relationship with anybody. It's just not me.

• 42:14Billy Corgan?

  When you're writing and you're poking around a melody, are you more, is it more phonetic, or are you looking for lyrics?

• 42:21Speaker 02

  I'm just saying what happens.

• 42:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Yeah, I get that.

• 42:28Billy Corgan?

  What's your favorite story in a song? And what I mean by that is like, you know how they say in Hollywood, there's only 12 stories, you know, boy meets girl, boy loses girl, girl...

• 42:37Speaker 02

  So what was my favorite? I don't know, I don't...

• 42:39Billy Corgan?

  Do you have a favorite kind of mythological?

• 42:41Speaker 02

  No.

• 42:42Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 42:43Speaker 02

  Not really.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  Do you?

• 42:48Billy Corgan?

  It seems to be looking for something that doesn't exist.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 42:52Billy Corgan?

  I think it has a lot to do with growing up without my mother.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm sorry.

• 42:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, well, thank you. But so going back to the California.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  I think mine, I do think there's a theme in some of my songs like.

• 43:02Billy Corgan?

  Okay, good, because we're here to talk.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  Like, you know, proving people wrong, you know, there's always that like, you know, you, I'm gonna get through it, I'm gonna.

• 43:12Billy Corgan?

  You got a scrappy thing to you, for sure.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm pretty scrappy, you know.

• 43:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I just wondered.

• 43:16Speaker 02

  Even in the journey, even like the number, this, my latest song with her.

• 43:21Billy Corgan?

  Song, nomination sixteen.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  Number sixteen.

• 43:23Billy Corgan?

  We're gonna win this thing.

• 43:23Speaker 02

  Sweet sixteen, come on. But it's, basically, that's what the song is about, you know.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  When you're going with your heart, you can go farther than you ever thought possible, prove them all wrong.

• 43:33Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so that is foundational. Yeah, there's a mythological foundation to that, right?

• 43:37Speaker 02

  It's the journey.

• 43:38Billy Corgan?

  Is it being small, too? Is that part of the, sort of the scrappiness?

• 43:41Speaker 02

  No, it's basically, it's just basically that against all odds, just like, you know, growing up a mile away from here and I'm sitting here talking about a career that I know is one in a billion.

• 43:52Billy Corgan?

  It is, it might even be more than one in a billion.

• 43:55Speaker 02

  I mean, you know, you know, so I, I don't lose sight of that, so.

• 44:00Billy Corgan?

  Is there a musical genre you can't write for?

• 44:03Speaker 02

  I probably don't know how to write rap. But I can get, I can write for rappers that sing. But I think I've, you know, yeah, that's probably the, you know.

• 44:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  I don't know. Maybe death metal wouldn't be what I would do.

• 44:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I once got in a kind of a quasi-argument with somebody on Broadway who didn't think I could write for Broadway.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  I bet you could write amazing for Broadway.

• 44:24Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's what I told him.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:26Billy Corgan?

  And, and I said, you know, that's like telling someone who cooks really good Italian food they can't cook good Mexican.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 44:33Billy Corgan?

  It's like, you don't understand the chop of a writer. A writer can write.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  A writer can do anything.

• 44:37Billy Corgan?

  A cook can cook and a writer can write.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 44:39Billy Corgan?

  So that's, but I was just wondering if there's anything that you, you would be intimidated by genre wise.

• 44:45Speaker 02

  No, not, just not knowing that I wouldn't be able to do it or want to do it.

• 44:48Billy Corgan?

  Have you tried your hand at alternative rock?

• 44:51Speaker 02

  You know.

• 44:53Billy Corgan?

  Not a lot of melody there.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  Not a lot, not a lot, but.

• 44:55Billy Corgan?

  Not a lot of melody there.

• 44:59Billy Corgan?

  I know the answer to the question, but tell me if I'm wrong, which is like, there's never enough songs.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's always new ones.

• 45:05Billy Corgan?

  There's always another song.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I'm always on to the next one.

• 45:07Billy Corgan?

  Is there, at the root of it, is there some pathological drive there?

• 45:12Speaker 02

  Probably, if I don't think about it. I just do it.

• 45:15Billy Corgan?

  Well, we're here to think about it.

• 45:16Speaker 02

  No, I just, you know, it's just what I do.

• 45:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  You know?

• 45:20Billy Corgan?

  Is there, is there something that you still hope to achieve in, in song, like?

• 45:26Speaker 02

  Just get better at it, you know? I want to just keep writing great songs and...

• 45:30Billy Corgan?

  You must have been approached to write musicals and stuff like that.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a couple of things I'm kind of doing, you know?

• 45:37Billy Corgan?

  Isn't there something where they're talking about doing like a songbook musical?

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's one that's in development, that's been written and stuff, so it's a bunch of my hits, but with new songs.

• 45:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  You know, but it's not my day job, it's not really my world, but it's, it's cool if it works.

• 45:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  It just takes forever.

• 45:52Billy Corgan?

  It's definitely a different modality too. They're very driven by other forces than we would be in writing a pop song.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  It's not, it's not as, you know, it takes too long. It takes a long time. It's not as, you know...

• 46:08Billy Corgan?

  You could probably speed it up a bit, but it still takes too long.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's still, you know...

• 46:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. It's weird because I've talked to people on Broadway and say, "Don't you want to have songs on Broadway that people would want to buy?"

• 46:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 46:20Billy Corgan?

  Not, not people...

• 46:21Speaker 02

  If I do musicals, I want to do like ones that have, that are hit songs.

• 46:25Billy Corgan?

  That's what I don't understand, why they don't...

• 46:26Speaker 02

  It's weird, right?

• 46:27Billy Corgan?

  It seemed to have worked that out of their business model. Like Oklahoma and all that.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, all those, the ones my parents played.

• 46:33Billy Corgan?

  They were on the charts.

• 46:34Speaker 02

  Those were great, like hit songs, you know, and you can modernize.

• 46:37Billy Corgan?

  Well, not only that, those songs would be covered by Charlie Parker or Miles Davis or...

• 46:42Speaker 02

  Ray Charles.

• 46:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I don't understand what happened to that part of the culture.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  Well, when I do my musicals, there's going to be hits.

• 46:47Billy Corgan?

  There you go. Okay, last question, and I want to explore this a little bit at depth because it's so at the heart of your writing. Is there a perfect love or a perfect, not lover like a person, but is there a, is there an ideal there in your mind?

• 47:02Speaker 02

  No.

• 47:03Billy Corgan?

  If you're...

• 47:03Speaker 02

  Well, it has four legs.

• 47:06Billy Corgan?

  Okay, well, we can go there too.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  No, I'm just kidding.

• 47:09Billy Corgan?

  Well, my point is, is, is, if you're, what's the, what's the oppositional force to the scrappy fighter? Does it make sense?

• 47:17Speaker 02

  What, what am I fighting against?

• 47:19Billy Corgan?

  No, it's like, if, if, um, if, if the, if you're a person who wants to be understood or seen, the foe on that, that end of the equation is somebody who doesn't see you or doesn't appreciate you.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:32Billy Corgan?

  And you have to prove them wrong.

• 47:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's kind of fun.

• 47:34Billy Corgan?

  But the positive side, the positive side of that equation is somebody who understands. But what is it that they understand about you that maybe most people?

• 47:42Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't, I don't know what they'd under, I don't, I don't know if anybody understands anybody, really.

• 47:47Billy Corgan?

  But, so when you're writing a love song and you, and you're writing about somebody else.

• 47:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:52Billy Corgan?

  Is it just a sort of miasmic idea of, of?

• 47:54Speaker 02

  Well, I'm just in that character.

• 47:56Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 47:57Speaker 02

  Like, so.

• 47:58Billy Corgan?

  So if, if it.

• 47:59Speaker 02

  It has to be, I'm, I'm being authentic to what is being said in that song.

• 48:02Billy Corgan?

  But is there an oppositional character usually that you're speaking to?

• 48:06Speaker 02

  There, it depends, depending on the song.

• 48:08Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  You know, it depends on.

• 48:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, just because you wrote, you've written so many great love songs, I almost wondered.

• 48:14Speaker 02

  I have some good, you know, songs that are love songs.

• 48:16Billy Corgan?

  I've heard the angry songs too, but.

• 48:18Speaker 02

  Those are fun.

• 48:19Billy Corgan?

  Um, I was just wondering if there's like sort of an idealized thing. Does it make?

• 48:24Speaker 02

  No, not an idealized thing.

• 48:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So I think I, I have an idealized thing, that's kind of.

• 48:30Speaker 02

  What is that? What is that?

• 48:31Billy Corgan?

  I think it has something to do with my mother and I, you know, it, it has something to do.

• 48:34Speaker 02

  Well, maybe mine does too, the proving people wrong, that, that was the first person I had to prove wrong, was my mom, so.

• 48:40Billy Corgan?

  Right, that's what I'm saying. You're, you're sort of speaking to somebody.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  Right. So, even if it's about something else, there's a, you know, some fundamental thing.

• 48:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because part of my story is my mother was institutionalized when I was four. So, my mother was in my life, but at a distance.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:57Billy Corgan?

  So, I had to create a kind of mental version of my mother that was or wasn't real, that over time had to be amended.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 49:06Billy Corgan?

  So when that became a, you know, there's that old, I'm sure you've heard it, like. Little boys marry their mothers and little girls marry their fathers, that type of thing. But the notion is that if you have an idealized conception of, in this case, the mother, well, then when you go into adult life and you're trying to find a partner, and if that holds true that you're looking for your mother, well, you're looking for somebody that doesn't exist.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 49:33Billy Corgan?

  Because I had to create an idealized version of my mother in my mind.

• 49:36Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 49:37Billy Corgan?

  Because the real person I couldn't navigate.

• 49:39Speaker 02

  Did you ever get to know her?

• 49:40Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah. I was very close to my mother and it's a very strange,

• 49:45Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 49:46Billy Corgan?

  long story that I'd love to tell you if you want to hear it.

• 49:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:48Billy Corgan?

  But, um, but so I feel like I'm oftentimes writing to like a ghost.

• 49:54Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 49:55Billy Corgan?

  And then by extension, and that's why I asked about California and growing up here, because by extension, I think, and I think this is a very similar to a lot of people grew up in the Midwest, in basements and latchkey kids.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:08Billy Corgan?

  We're kind of talking about something that we were sort of promised, but we know it isn't real. But television created a fake.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:16Billy Corgan?

  Because there it was.

• 50:17Speaker 02

  And now it's the internet, now it's, you know, Instagram, isn't it?

• 50:20Billy Corgan?

  Sure. But the 1975 version was Eric Estrada on a motorcycle.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 50:24Billy Corgan?

  You know, or Farrah Fawcett, you know, Charlie's Angels, all this. It was like, it looked.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  Enticing.

• 50:31Billy Corgan?

  Yes, and it created a kind of mental idea of something, even though it's not real, you believe it to be real, so you kind of chase it.

• 50:38Speaker 02

  I wonder how many people came, you know, to Hollywood and, you know.

• 50:41Billy Corgan?

  Endless.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  With that, like thousands, millions.

• 50:44Billy Corgan?

  See, you, growing up here, I think it's probably a different perspective. I always, the analogy I always get is people get off the bus.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:49Billy Corgan?

  Think of how many Sally Mays came from Kansas. They were the high school, uh, prom queen.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  And they came here and there was like a million of them.

• 50:57Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah. Can you imagine that moment where you look around and you realize you're like, you're one of, like, you're working, you're working with the other prom queen that was from the other state.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, or the other city right next door to you that you didn't know.

• 51:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  But, you know, growing up, like I said, right on the street from here, you know, Hollywood was a million miles away, too.

• 51:14Billy Corgan?

  Can you explain that a little bit?

• 51:16Speaker 02

  Well, just when I'd go, you know, going over the hill to have meetings and it just seemed like, it was almost like being from the Midwest, being in the valley. But not the idealized thing, you know, not like, you know.

• 51:26Billy Corgan?

  So are your parents alive or they passed?

• 51:28Speaker 02

  No, no, they're gone. Yours?

• 51:29Billy Corgan?

  Both, yeah, they're gone, yeah?

• 51:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're orphans.

• 51:32Billy Corgan?

  So, when did your mommy and daddy pass away?

• 51:34Speaker 02

  Well, my dad, a long time ago. And he was 70 in 87. My mom, in 2002.

• 51:40Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so dad got to see some success.

• 51:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, oh, he was, he'd call radio stations and, you know, and request songs.

• 51:47Billy Corgan?

  That's so amazing.

• 51:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was kinda cool.

• 51:49Billy Corgan?

  That must have felt...

• 51:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then I, I got a good friend from that because one of my, one of the people he called, I ended up becoming really good friends with.

• 51:56Billy Corgan?

  So, and, and your mother, how would she see your success?

• 51:59Speaker 02

  You know, she saw a lot of it. She would say she's proud of me, but she wouldn't, you know, I'd say, you know, "Mom, I just got a check for like, some ridiculous amount of money." She goes, "How much you gonna keep?"

• 52:09Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's that old, that's that old logic, like, you're not, it's not gonna last and...

• 52:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, and in the depression era, because my parents, my parents were older parents.

• 52:18Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 52:19Speaker 02

  When they had me, so...

• 52:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay, last question. So, did you prove whoever you're trying to prove wrong?

• 52:24Speaker 02

  A lot of them.

• 52:26Billy Corgan?

  But not all of them?

• 52:26Speaker 02

  Not all of them.

• 52:29Speaker 02

  Nice talking to you.

• 52:30Billy Corgan?

  You too. Thank you, Diane.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  You know, thank you.