Steve Vai | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan sits down with Steve Vai for a wild ride through arenas, rehearsal rooms, and beehives. They swap stories about outlandish ’80s stage antics, the “gunslinger” spirit of guitar duels, and how obsession, not discipline, fuels mastery. Vai breaks down his early passion for composing, his years with Frank Zappa, the hire wire act of replacing Yngwie Malmsteen and following Eddie Van Halen, plus how to survive the smoky Zen of David Lee Roth during the ‘shred’ years. Subscribe to the Magnificent Others YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO?sub_confirmation=1 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:09Speaker 01

  We wore the most outlandish clothes. The stage was like the size of a football field. You know, you just run as fast as...

• 1:16Billy Corgan?

  I remember you guys, there seemed to be a lot of running.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  Running, running, running. It was fantastic.

• 1:21Billy Corgan?

  You've always struck me as somebody who didn't quite find yourself in the given modalities.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27Billy Corgan?

  Does that make sense?

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Well, I never felt good enough to be in, you know, like those guys.

• 1:32Billy Corgan?

  You're in an elite class of people to have a bunch of guys sit there and wait for you to just play more guitar.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  For some reason, I was into the weird, you know, kind of abilities to play these hard melodies, reluctant to mention it.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  I never really say it, but I guess it's time I could.

• 1:55Billy Corgan?

  Thank you very much for being here.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  Thank you for the invite.

• 1:58Billy Corgan?

  So, tell me if you don't like the analogy, but, and it comes from seeing you, it was the tour, the Generation Axe, I saw that in Dallas. I didn't know if you knew I was there that night.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:10Billy Corgan?

  I went backstage and I talked to, I think I saw Nuno, but I didn't really see anybody, I didn't want to bother anybody. But, it comes from watching this thing that you guys would do on stage, and I'll get to that in a second, but I love the analogy, and it's offused, it's the idea of like guitarists as gunslingers.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:27Billy Corgan?

  This idea of like, you know, the Sergio Leone.

• 2:29Speaker 01

  (mimicking guitar)

• 2:31Billy Corgan?

  So, and I'm not saying you're someone who prides himself as being like the fastest gun in the West, I've never gotten that feeling from you. In fact, I've read where you've sort of dissuaded people from focusing too much on that. Is that fair?

• 2:45Speaker 01

  Well, I would say so. I like having facility. It's a challenge to keep up.

• 2:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  You know?

• 2:54Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so, let me start, how do you keep it up at your age? Because I'm 57, and I've been playing 40 years, and at some point the joints start to go like, "Take it easy, buddy."

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're kind of like, I don't know why, but when I was younger, I chose the route of being fascinated by chops.

• 3:12Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  You know, so, it was an interesting discovery, and it was just something as simple as, "Look, if you sit down and just practice, you get better." And, when I started getting better, it gives you a feeling of enthusiasm, self-respect, which I needed at the time.

• 3:34Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  So, that, it becomes sort of like, an addiction.

• 3:38Billy Corgan?

  Very much.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  So, for me, now, practicing endlessly is not for everybody.

• 3:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  It's only for those that are, that have a pull to do it.

• 3:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  You know, like, you can't, you can try to force it.

• 3:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  But, it's, if it doesn't feel natural to you, to want to...

• 4:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, so, in a normal day, what would have been a practice amount of time?

• 4:04Speaker 01

  Well, my schedule back then, I was happy if I got nine hours a day.

• 4:10Billy Corgan?

  I thought I was doing well at four.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  That is good. Four hours a day is great.

• 4:14Billy Corgan?

  Nine is like, wow.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  I was very neurotic, very, uh...

• 4:19Billy Corgan?

  That's a good word.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, myopic, you know, because once I discovered this, and you know...

• 4:25Billy Corgan?

  This is what age, just so we can...

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Twelve, thirteen, fourteen.

• 4:27Billy Corgan?

  Twelve, that's a very early age to go that deep in on...

• 4:30Speaker 01

  Well, I started going deeper at like thirteen.

• 4:32Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but still, most kids at thirteen are thinking about a lot of other stuff, you know?

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, uh, just, it, it just had such a pull, such an attract, such an interest, such a joy, such a...

• 4:46Billy Corgan?

  Was it the exploration or was it the discipline?

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Well, the funny thing was, it didn't feel like discipline.

• 4:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  You know, discipline, I'm not, people say you must have been very disciplined, you know? And sometimes I would try to, I would go to sleep early on a Friday so I could wake up and practice all the way till Monday when I had to go to school. So I get like twenty, thirty hours. And people say, "You must have been very disciplined." And I'm not a very disciplined person that way.

• 5:15Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  You know, it, it, passion, it was a passion, and you, you understand this. And because passion is a, a much more powerful engine of creation than discipline. You know, discipline implies you have to fight something. You have to push yourself to do something that you don't really want to do, you know? But you, you gotta do it. But passion says, "You're gonna do this because you want to do it."

• 5:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  It'll, it'll, it'll be challenges along the way, but the, there's never the thought of giving up or failing.

• 5:52Billy Corgan?

  It's in your heart, yeah.

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's in your heart. It's like a little secret that you create with yourself.

• 5:57Billy Corgan?

  So, playing along with my gunslinger image.

• 6:01Billy Corgan?

  Who would be a gunslinger that you would not want to face out on the Dusky?

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Oh geez, it happens all the time.

• 6:08Billy Corgan?

  Well, I've seen it and I'm getting there, but I'm saying just throw out a name that somebody that you like would think like, oh, that guy is, that guy on the draw is hard to beat.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Oh, well, there's, there's guys.

• 6:18Billy Corgan?

  It's all in good fun, obviously.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. Well, you know, when you're in this situation and if you have the confidence and you, you decide that, well, I can only do the best I can do. And you're, you're free, you're clear. But there's, there's guys that if I was standing next to, I'd be like, you know, if Alan Holdsworth was, you know, I'd be like, okay, wait a minute, folks.

• 6:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  I don't know if I could, you know.

• 6:43Billy Corgan?

  The reason I, I, I thought of this analogy in speaking with you was when I saw you guys in Dallas. And I don't remember the song you guys were playing, but you were out there with Ingvie and you guys were kind of doing a trading back and forth thing. Do you remember the song that you guys would do it on?

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Black Star, I think it was.

• 7:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I think it's, yeah, right. That makes sense, right? It's kind of a halftime, like.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:04Billy Corgan?

  Right. And you and Ingvie were having a lot of fun going back and forth.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:10Billy Corgan?

  And he played this one run. And he did some, I, I can't even describe it other than he started here and he ended up here and it was.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  It's kind of hard to describe those things he does.

• 7:21Billy Corgan?

  Right. I mean, it was so, it was so, it was probably the greatest 10 seconds of guitar playing I've ever seen in my life.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  No, right.

• 7:27Billy Corgan?

  And, and, and then, you know, he does this thing and like a gunslinger, he puts this thing and you're supposed to go.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:32Billy Corgan?

  And you literally went like, I'm taking this.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  I did that a few times with him.

• 7:37Billy Corgan?

  And I didn't know if it was a shtick or whatever, but so. I actually went back and found the clip. It's on YouTube somehow of that show in that moment.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:46Billy Corgan?

  And, and I was like, okay, is this moment as good as I thought it was? And it was, it was some sort of crazy moment where it's like somehow in that, all those years and all that discipline and then obviously standing across from you, and you guys having a little bit of fun jousting.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:04Billy Corgan?

  And that sort of beautiful moment of like, wow.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:08Billy Corgan?

  Two gunslingers and he got you good because you literally just go, okay, I'm done.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah, because, you know, Ingve is a special, special case.

• 8:16Billy Corgan?

  He very much is.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  I, I loved the idea of being able to shred, as they say. And I honed that skill, but Ingve, when he hit the scene, it was a different kind of a shredding.

• 8:29Billy Corgan?

  He all drove us back to our, to our practice.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, he, he let us know what.

• 8:34Billy Corgan?

  I was like, what is Phrygian, you know, I was like, suddenly I care about the Phrygian scale because of Ingve.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  That's Ingve, the Phrygian scale, but he, he had a different kind of approach from, from the germination of his interest, and that was violin playing.

• 8:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, Paganini.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  So Paganini and stuff, so his inner ear was hearing that kind of thing, which is not very, in a sense, it's not as guitaristic as somebody listening to Jimmy Page or that kind of thing. And when we get up on the stage together and we're trading like that, it's really, it's a great moment, you know, because Ingve, you know, standing with another musician and actually trading licks like we do and I do with all the G3, Generation X, all this kind of thing, you know, it requires listening very intently and then responding in a way that, you know, is appropriate.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  And with guys like Ingve, you can't compete, you know, like if I'm with Joe Satriani or any of these guys, you can't compete with the best of them. They force you, if you're smart, to compete with the best of you.

• 9:47Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  You know, like I have, yeah, I have to be more Steve Vai, that weird quirky guy, than I have been before.

• 9:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  When, you know, somebody does something that's the top of their game. So it's a wonderful opportunity. So when Ingve does his... You know, that monstrous kind of riff.

• 10:08Billy Corgan?

  What is that?

• 10:09Speaker 01

  It's his thing, you know.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  I think, you know, it's part of the show. You know, because it's fun. Because I can't, I don't do that.

• 10:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  But standing next to Engve will compel me, or Joe, or anybody. It compels you to reach into your taste.

• 10:30Billy Corgan?

  Is, I know there's various versions of it. G3 and the, I can never think of the name, Generation Axe. Is that, was that your brainchild, or whose brainchild was that?

• 10:41Speaker 01

  G3 was Joe Satriani, and Generation Axe was something that I pulled together.

• 10:47Billy Corgan?

  What I like about it as a fan of guitar playing and guitar players is that it shows that there's an esteemed club that you can reach. And yet, there's a special camaraderie that goes on with players of that level. I don't consider myself in that league. I can play, but that's a different level. And it's so cool to see this sort of like, lack of a mutual admiration society.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:11Billy Corgan?

  Because guitar playing at that level is kind of a lonely thing. And in the world that you and I grew up in, it was more of a...

• 11:17Speaker 01

  It was niche.

• 11:18Billy Corgan?

  Or was also, I'm better than you.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  There's a lot of that.

• 11:21Billy Corgan?

  There was a lot of, like, I had to beat, again, the gunslinger thing. I have to beat you, because if I can't beat you, I don't win whatever game I'm after over here.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:28Billy Corgan?

  I think the game's changed in the last 10, 15 years where there's sort of more suppleness in the market for like, hey, there's a lot to learn and a lot to enjoy, and it doesn't have to be defined by ego or who's the best.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  Well, it's a crazy kind of a perspective, because, as you know, it's all subjective. And the best may exist in things like sports. You know, but for instance, in the shredder world...

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Back then, even more so now in the underground, there's evolution, you know, of the way these people are playing.

• 12:06Billy Corgan?

  When I saw you guys play, it was, I can never say his name right, Abasi.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Tosin, Tosin Abasi.

• 12:11Billy Corgan?

  I mean, totally from a different world than we grew up in.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:16Billy Corgan?

  And bringing in a whole new language, a whole new... Even the guitar, the instrument.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  Everything. Tosin's contribution to the formula was fantastic.

• 12:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  But the enduring feature of anybody that plays an instrument is gonna be tied at the hip with the effectiveness of their melody.

• 12:38Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  There has to be, you know, there has to be melody.

• 12:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Shredding is fun, it's fine.

• 12:44Billy Corgan?

  Well, eight-year-old kids are playing "Eruption" now, so you're... That is the distinguishing factor.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:50Billy Corgan?

  Drops really are not, they're not less meaningful, but they're not meaningful in the way that they were at one point because it was a, it was an elite club who could play at that level.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:59Billy Corgan?

  Now, so many people can play at that level.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  And beyond, and I can tell you how to become a virtuoso very easily.

• 13:06Billy Corgan?

  Okay, tell me, I'm still after it.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, you have to practice non-stop and practice perfectly, and you have to practice fast, and you have to get, have bulletproof intonation, and this is an intellectual exercise.

• 13:22Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  And when I was younger, that's what I did. I set the clock. And I set the metronome. There wasn't a lot of melody involved, you know? But luckily for me, I was a huge fan of like 70s, top 40. I love melody, melody.

• 13:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  So, the ability to shred is fine and good, but without melody, there's no shelf life in a performer's career. I'll even say that.

• 13:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 13:54Billy Corgan?

  It just, I wanted to ask you, I didn't think to ask it, but it made sense to me in the context. Who's the greatest guitar player that you stood there and watched and thought, "My god, that's just like, that's the mountain for me personally"?

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, Alan Holdsworth.

• 14:08Billy Corgan?

  Right. Can you break that down a bit? Because, sorry. Growing up in the generation that I did, okay, I'm in the guitar magazines, I'm reading about you. You know what I mean, I'm hearing all these things. And everybody would talk about Holdsworth like he was this kind of spinning deity.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:25Billy Corgan?

  But as a kid, you go grab that record and you put it on, and I think, I don't really...

• 14:30Speaker 01

  No, as a kid, it was Jimmy Pa... Oops, sorry.

• 14:32Billy Corgan?

  But I'm saying for me, Holdsworth still remains a bit of a cipher. Like, I certainly understand the influence.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:40Billy Corgan?

  And the technical mastery involved, and like even the fluidity in his playing, if that's a fair thing to say. But I'm saying, I don't, I never found that emotional connection to his work.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a, it's more of a intellectualized sophistication, sophisticated listening.

• 14:58Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  And it, for me, it tickles a particular part of my brain because it encompasses all of these elements. Like Alan, the thing that I love most about him, and when I was a kid, it was Jimmy Page.

• 15:10Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Jimmy Page, Jimmy Page, by the way, if anybody wants to know, Jimmy Page.

• 15:15Billy Corgan?

  Was it the mystique in the whole thing, or like?

• 15:17Speaker 01

  The way he, the choices of riffs, the way he played them, the mystique.

• 15:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  The fact that he produced that stuff.

• 15:25Billy Corgan?

  His no-choices were supreme.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Oh my God, it was...

• 15:29Billy Corgan?

  He played such cool stuff.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Such cool stuff, and with such an attitude, and such a mystique, and such a class act. I don't know if you follow his Instagram.

• 15:38Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I do, yeah.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  It's fantastic.

• 15:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  It's like there's his book. You know, he's telling us everything.

• 15:44Billy Corgan?

  Well, you really see that literacy is not the right, where you see there's an intellectual drive in Jimmy that goes beyond...

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:51Billy Corgan?

  Like, let's call it the rock mystique of Jimmy.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:54Billy Corgan?

  The real Jimmy, coming out of studio system, being a studio player, learning what he learned, and figuring out what he figured out in many ways before other people did.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:04Billy Corgan?

  Including the people he kind of copiously copped from.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:08Billy Corgan?

  But he put it in this stew that was very singular.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, he, he had it all going.

• 16:13Billy Corgan?

  His mind is incredible.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. But someone like Alan Holdsworth is more like a, or Jeff Beck even, totally different worlds.

• 16:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  They're crafts, craftsmen. Alan Holdsworth, the reason why I'm so attracted to him, because his musical mind is unique in that... So for instance, when I moved out to California in 1980, I was doing transcriptions to make a couple of bucks. And he called me, and he was writing a book on his wild chords.

• 16:42Billy Corgan?

  Okay, because he played those crazy.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Crazy things. But Alan didn't really know traditional music.

• 16:49Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  He had his own vocabulary. He had his own way of constructing chords, his own understanding of how they go on the neck.

• 16:59Billy Corgan?

  Okay, that helps me understand him a little bit, because I could never understand why someone of your caliber would sort of point at him. And even Eddie Van Halen would talk about Hold's.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So this is just his musical mind.

• 17:11Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  So he didn't even understand how to translate that into conventional notation to write this book. So that's what I was helping him with. But in the process, I got to recognize a person who was almost like if you left people on a desert island, you know what I mean? And just gave them a couple of tools, and the real brilliant ones build things. That's what Alan did. So his way of approaching notes, now, to a lot of people, it sounds like crazy notes going around the place. But if you're into connecting the musical dots of music theory and melody.

• 17:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  I'll use the word jazz. It's not quite relatable. But jazz is like formulaic in that this is the chord, and these are the notes you can use. And by the way, the next chord comes in the next bar, and it's totally different. And now you can use this.

• 18:10Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  So in cippid jazz playing is people who know the chords and the arpeggios.

• 18:17Billy Corgan?

  And they just.

• 18:18Speaker 01

  And then what you hear is ripping arpeggios, but there's no soul in it.

• 18:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  The mind, it's more mental than actually coming from the soulful place.

• 18:31Billy Corgan?

  Math.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  And that's fine. You know, that's a process.

• 18:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  But someone like Alan, or a great jazz player, who doesn't even know anything about.

• 18:39Billy Corgan?

  Give me a jazz player you love.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Oh, Wes, Wes Montgomery.

• 18:42Billy Corgan?

  My dad saw him once in the 60s.

• 18:46Billy Corgan?

  My dad was a guitar player in.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 18:49Billy Corgan?

  He said, thank you. See, he said what blew his mind, he said it was just a club gig, and he said it was just him on a stool.

• 18:59Billy Corgan?

  And he said he just couldn't believe what was coming out of this one man.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:04Billy Corgan?

  And even thirty years later, he would talk about seeing West Montgomery like with a certain awe.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:11Billy Corgan?

  Like, I know how to play guitar, but I couldn't do that.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  No, yeah, that happened to me when I watched Joe Pass play.

• 19:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Or Alan.

• 19:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Have you ever heard that beautiful, it's Joe Pass and the pianist Oscar Peterson?

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:27Billy Corgan?

  They do Porgy and Bess.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:29Billy Corgan?

  And Oscar's playing harpsichord for some reason.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 19:32Billy Corgan?

  Very unique.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  And interestingly enough, Joe Pass didn't know much about music at all.

• 19:38Billy Corgan?

  That's so funny.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's all here.

• 19:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  That's why he's so inspired.

• 19:42Billy Corgan?

  We played once with George Lynch from Dawkins, and we were sound checking at what used to be Universal. And I said something, and I know basic music theory, but I said something and he said, I don't know the notes. And I thought, how can you play like that? And he said, I literally just figured out where I wanted to go, and that's the way I play.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 20:05Billy Corgan?

  You know, like, he never, like, he just learned, like, if I play here, that feels right.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:11Billy Corgan?

  And so all his playing was completely instinctive.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:14Billy Corgan?

  And obviously had the gift to express it. So when you do meet people like that, and I've met a few, it's sort of, it's humbling. It's like, there's sort of music untamed in a way.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. I've met many people like that.

• 20:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  They're not, they don't really retain theory information, but they just own it.

• 20:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, maybe it's a different brain, right?

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, yeah.

• 20:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So you talked about playing as a kid, and I'm sure it's been off explored because you've been interviewed so many times, but... When you, when you're, I guess what I'm after is, and I'll give the idea in reverse, it's not fair, but you've always struck me as somebody who, it maybe took time, because I realize it's not one moment, but you kind of had to figure out your own way, that the ways presented to you weren't like, it's not that they weren't satisfying, they weren't you. And then over time, you created almost like hybridity.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  I think you nailed it.

• 21:17Billy Corgan?

  Okay, great. So, so at thirteen, fourteen, obviously you're like, I love Led Zeppelin or something.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:23Billy Corgan?

  But where it's, where in there did you start to see, like, I like that, but I've got this other thing, because, you know, in eighteen, you're, you know, you're talking to Frank Zappa, like, take me at least a little bit how you sort of recognize that there's this other voice in me that I have to figure out. Because standard rock and roll presentation of the guitar circa 1973 was, well, you can be like Jimi Hendrix, or you can be like Jimmy Page, or you can be like Jeff Beck. But you've always struck me as somebody who didn't quite find yourself in the given modalities.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:59Billy Corgan?

  Does that make sense?

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Well, I never felt good enough to be in, you know, like those guys.

• 22:05Billy Corgan?

  But, but obviously it wasn't a chops issue, so...

• 22:08Speaker 01

  No, I think for me, I was more interested in composing before I started playing the guitar. I was probably about five, six years old when I, I hit a piano for the first time.

• 22:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  And I realized the notes go higher and lower, and had like, a little epiphany.

• 22:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  And it was, if you understand how to write or navigate this language, you will have control over vast ideas. And, and this was, that was, it lit me up. And the biggest inspiration came... When my parents brought home West Side Story.

• 22:44Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  There was historical orchestration with Bernstein and Stephen Sondheim. Great melody, great story. Gangs in it and tension and love interests and resolve and, you know, all this great stuff. And I was four, you know. So that was, what I really knew I wanted to do was compose. So I had this high information and I started studying.

• 23:09Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  At a very early age.

• 23:11Billy Corgan?

  Seeing your guitar life through the prism of a composer first makes so much more sense and that it may, almost for me, it gives a missing piece to your story that I never quite understood.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:22Billy Corgan?

  Whenever I would look at you as a public figure and I've been a fan and we'll get to that in a second, but there'd always be this piece missing, but I didn't see it as a character defect or something. I just didn't understand.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:33Billy Corgan?

  Because you're, of all the famed guitar players in the world that could go and literally sell out a show with you just playing the guitar, nobody singing, you know what I mean? You're in an elite class of people to have a bunch of guys sit there and wait for you to just play more guitar. You as composer sort of helps me understand that because you didn't fall in these conventional lanes as presented circa 1984, like he's this or he's that or he's this or that.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  I had enough of an interest, well, I had a huge, once I heard Led Zeppelin when I was 12 and then that Queen, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, the whole, and then Fusion, Al Demiola, so, and then once I heard Frank.

• 24:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 24:17Speaker 01

  He was doing what I loved the most because he was mixing all these things.

• 24:21Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  He was taking the compositional interest and mixing it with all sorts of.

• 24:28Billy Corgan?

  Were you, this is just a sort of weird fetish question, but were you also attracted to his kind of anti-guitar guitar stance? You know what I mean by that? Does that translate or you want me to?

• 24:39Speaker 01

  Well, give, tell me.

• 24:40Billy Corgan?

  Well, he, my father loved Zappa.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 24:44Billy Corgan?

  He was one of those people would go try to see Frank every time he was in town and for all I know, he saw you play with Frank, but, but. And I never really understood because Zappa seemed outside his normal orbit. My father loved R and B, my father loved Jimi Hendrix, and kind of what you'd expect, you know? Didn't really like hard rock per se.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:05Billy Corgan?

  And then Zappa sort of sits on the side of this whole thing, you know?

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:09Billy Corgan?

  As a sort of a...

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:10Billy Corgan?

  Like, he's a star, but he doesn't act like a star in the conventional way. He was dismissive of star systems.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:17Billy Corgan?

  So I'm saying...

• 25:18Speaker 01

  I get what you mean.

• 25:18Billy Corgan?

  And even calling an album "Shut Up and Play Your Guitar", it's very Frank Zappa-like.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:24Billy Corgan?

  Like, "I'm gonna play endless copious amounts of guitar, but I'm also gonna sort of make fun of the whole thing at the same time."

• 25:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:30Billy Corgan?

  I'm saying, was that also attractive to you in a particular way?

• 25:33Speaker 01

  Well, at that age, you know, when I discovered Frank, he had such a powerful personality. He was so fiercely confident, and also an explosion of freedom. I mean, Frank, he was remarkable. So, I was... I started working for him when I was 18.

• 25:53Billy Corgan?

  18.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  And then joined the band when I was 20.

• 25:56Billy Corgan?

  Let me stop you there one quick, because this was one of my questions. How do you write Frank Zappa at 18? Is like an address you can send something to?

• 26:04Speaker 01

  It's a... I was 16, and I'm in my little teenage bedroom, practicing, practicing. All those friends come over, they're trying to pull me out.

• 26:13Billy Corgan?

  Let's go to the sock hop and...

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, and one of my friends came in and he had stole a Rolodex, because that's how you're used to get phone numbers. From a studio in New York City.

• 26:26Billy Corgan?

  And it had Frank's...

• 26:27Speaker 01

  It had not just Frank... I mean, I'm sitting there practicing, going, "Look, Mick Jagger", I'm like, "Oh, cool, you know, I got this, Pat Benatar", I'm like, "Great", and then he gets to the Z's, and he says, "Oh, and I have Frank Zappa's home phone number", and I went, "You have what?" You know? And I tried calling.

• 26:43Billy Corgan?

  At sixteen.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  It's at sixteen.

• 26:45Billy Corgan?

  Okay, did anyone answer?

• 26:47Speaker 01

  Yes, his wife answered.

• 26:48Billy Corgan?

  Gail.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Gail. And oddly enough, when I, knowing Gail, the way I know her now, the fact that she took the phone call and actually said, and I'm like, you know, I'm just a fan. I got your phone number.

• 27:01Billy Corgan?

  With the sixteen year old.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Can I talk to Frank? Yeah.

• 27:03Billy Corgan?

  And I talked to Frank.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. And she said, well, Frank's on tour, call back in six months. So I did. Well, Frank's on tour again, call back in another six months. And I did that three times until I was eighteen and I was at my friend's apartment at Berkeley, I was going to Berkeley, and Frank answered the phone.

• 27:21Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  And he was so nice. I caught him at a good time. And he gave me his address, because I told him, I knew the secret. I knew he was looking for Edgar Verace scores.

• 27:32Billy Corgan?

  That was this big.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:34Billy Corgan?

  He was big on Verace, yeah.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Big on Verace, and the Boston Public Library had those scores. So I Xerox him, I say, hey, Frank, I'd love to send you these scores. And I said, I have a transcription of the Black Page. And I said, and I have a tape of my band. And oddly enough, he said, well, just send it directly to the house. And he gave me his home address and I mailed it and that's how it started.

• 27:58Billy Corgan?

  Wow. So you walked through Frank Zappa's door, eighteen years old. And so the job is you're going to transcribe his world or?

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, he wanted me to audition for the band. And then when I told him I was eighteen, he said, forget it. But I had sent him this transcription.

• 28:15Billy Corgan?

  Was he worried about a maturity issue?

• 28:17Speaker 01

  I think so. Eighteen, can you imagine? Like, in that band?

• 28:20Billy Corgan?

  I can.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, you, I can. You can, yeah. But Frank's touring regime, I'll tell it to you one of these days. It's, it was rough, you know?

• 28:31Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  So, I had transcribed this very complex piece of music. It's like the most infamous Yeah. Zappa composition of all time, right? Yes, the Black And that's kind of how, uh, Bozio got the gig too, or something, right? He learned how to play it. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so Frank asked me to transcribe some of his guitar solos. So I said, "Sure," and I did it. And he was so impressed that he hired me to transcribe guitar solos. What would be the point of a solo being transcribed? Would he want people to learn it, or? Well, a couple Or he saw it as a compositional? Well, he thought it was fascinating, and he thought it would be great to release a book with all, with these transcriptions, which he did. Which is kind of ahead of its time, if you really think about it.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, because the transcriptions are unreadable. I mean, they're so intensely complex, you know? And, um, so, he also, back in those days, in order to copyright a song, Mm-hmm. You had to send the lead sheet to Washington. I remember that. So they have it, or a cassette. Library of Congress, right? Yes, Library of Congress. I remember. We did that, like, eighty-eight. Yes. So, back then Frank had to do it too. So, one of my jobs was to go through his entire catalog and make sure there was at least lead sheets for everything. Oh. So I, I was doing that, and then there was things that he wanted me to transcribe, like, the entire Roxy record.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Head to toe, every instrument. So I, I did that. And that's good for him to have to then say, "Okay," to a band, you know, "Here, learn this," you know? Uh, and then he had me do, probably one of the most challenging, was, uh, to create a full score of Gregory Peckery. Uh, it's a very obtuse piece of music, that's like forty-five minutes long, that has the, the kitchen sink in it. And, so that was the kind of transcription work I did. Okay. So when he first saw you kind of play guitar, what did he say? Uh, okay, so the first time he heard in the cassette I sent.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  But I'm saying, okay, but is there a point where you jam in front of him, or you guys play, or you audition, I mean? Frank wasn't, he wasn't very generous with compliments. I'd heard that. Yeah, so, but the first, one of the first things I recorded for him was one of the guitar solos I transcribed. Okay. It was like a six-minute, and I doubled his guitar, every note, every scratch, every everything, in one pass. Yeah. Because I didn't realize at the time what punching in was. I thought I had to do it all. That's pretty impressive. Just in one pass. And I got to the house, and Frank wasn't in a very good mood because he just got back from the dentist.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  And I'm this kid, I'm twenty, you know, twenty years old, and I'm doing this impossible thing, and to me, it's like, you're gonna get this right. Yeah. You're gonna do this. So I'm playing through it, and out of my peripheral, I see Frank, he was throwing his head back, which I come to find out later, that's when Frank's really interested, and he's laughing. When something's so wild to him, he just goes, you know? Yeah. So I thought he was laughing because I was blowing it or something. Oh, I see. And when it was done, I thought, okay, well, I'm out of here. You know, and Frank picks up the phone and says, he calls Gail, and he goes, "Gail, come down here, you have to see this." So that was...

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Have you repeated? Oh, yeah, I did it a couple of times. I doubled it, actually, on the record, I think it's doubled. That's great. Yeah. And, um, so, but there was one other time, it was very interesting, you know, Frank expected you to play the right notes. And he gave me some parts that were pretty challenging on guitar and there was this one song called Montana. And he had never really had anybody play these obtuse melodies, you know, all this crazy, it's not written for guitar.

• 32:42Billy Corgan?

  Would he actually play them himselfs or he would write them?

• 32:44Speaker 01

  No, Frank was more of a visceral soloist. He would give all these...

• 32:48Billy Corgan?

  So this is strictly, he's composed this thing and now it's like, here.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that was the majority of the stuff, the crazy stuff.

• 32:56Billy Corgan?

  I never thought about it that way, but it makes sense to me.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, and Billy, he would write it on piano.

• 33:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, so he's not...

• 33:02Speaker 01

  It didn't make any sense on guitar, you know, so I was doing Montana and it was the first, it was the first show. And Frank didn't know how I was gonna be able to deliver all this very complex music on stage and get it right. But, you know, in the back of my mind, I was so bulletproof, confident, cocky, you know, it's like scared to death around Frank, but what do you want me to do? Bring it on, I got it. And we're doing this show and if, if you made mistakes, he called you out on stage. He'd stop, he'd stop the show and call you out.

• 33:43Billy Corgan?

  Okay, what would he say? Or he'd say something on the microphone?

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Oh, it's too fast for you, huh? Or he'd say, you know, something, you know, not, not all the time.

• 33:53Billy Corgan?

  I get it.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  You know, but if it was a train wreck or something embarrassing, you know? And so I'm all ready, you know, and we do this, I'm like, the part's coming up and I'm like, ah, and I nailed it and Frank stops the band and I'm like, uh-oh. Uh-oh. And he looks at me, takes the mic and he said, "Not bad, sport."

• 34:21Speaker 01

  And then we continued. So that, you asked if the compliment, that's probably the closest I get.

• 34:29Billy Corgan?

  When he saw your acumen and saw that you, maybe I'm guessing something, but did he see your future?

• 34:39Billy Corgan?

  I mean, does it make sense? He's like, okay, he sees this potential in you. Did he point you in a particular direction and say, this is where I see you going?

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Or? No, and I asked him once. I said, is there any advice you would like to give me? And Frank was very practical. And he said, keep your publishing.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  And that was the best advice he ever gave.

• 35:01Billy Corgan?

  It is great advice.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it came from Frank. So to this day, I own every song, you know? But as far as that, no, because Frank was a free thinker and he would never make suggestions like that. There was only one time he ever commented on my future, and I'm reluctant to mention it.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  I never really say it, but I guess it's time I could. We were just in the studio, just him and I, just playing, playing, playing, you know? We were playing Sleep Dirt. It's just two guitars and it's arpeggio. And I was just brand new, you know? And Frank would look for special things in a musician, you know? Something that they could do that's kind of quirky, kind of interesting.

• 35:47Billy Corgan?

  Seems like that's kind of how he put his bands together.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Yes. He would find something. The great thing about Frank was he had this intuitive ability to recognize your potential even better than you did. And then he would pull it out of you and use it as a color in his palette.

• 36:04Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  That's why all of his records sound so different and everything. And for me, for some reason, I was into the weird, you know, kind of abilities to play these hard melodies. So that I was a good color in the palette.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  But the transcribing stuff, it really is on Mars, what I was doing. And I think he recognized that. And we were jamming. And I remember just stopping because I was stunned. Because he started playing rhythm and I was starting to solo. And...

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Just some months before that, I was in my bedroom in Long Island, you know, listening to his records and everything. So I had a moment of like, just what's going on? It was like almost existential crisis or something. I'm like, that's Frank playing rhythm. So I kinda like tripped. And he looks up, he goes, you okay? And I said, Frank, I don't know what I'm doing here. How did I get here? You know? And, and he said, well, how many Tommy Mars are there? And I said, oh, geez, man, there's only one Tommy Mars. And he said, how many Vinnie Colaiutas do you think there are? And I'm like, well, there's only one Vinnie Colaiuta, you know? And he goes, well, how many Steve I's do you think there are?

• 37:23Speaker 01

  And I didn't understand that, because I didn't see myself as anything special whatsoever, you know? And I thought about it. And then he said, I think you're a genius in ways that have yet to be discovered.

• 37:35Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I just thought he was being nice, you know? I just thought it was a nice thing to say. And I didn't understand what he said. I thought, well, maybe I'll do something great someday. I'm still trying to find it, you know? I think he saw my potential to do something obscure, you know?

• 37:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  You know, but everybody is a genius when they find what they love and they throw themselves into it without any excuses.

• 38:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. But it's still an interesting, I don't know if that's, he has an interesting legacy with like a form of mentorship.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:12Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean? In, in the same way, if you read books about like Tommy Dorsey or...

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:17Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean? Like, people came out of the Dorsey Band, including Sinatra. You know, there's this weird, maybe because we don't live in an ensemble society anymore, and maybe Frank... Does it make sense? It's like-

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's kinda like our whole way of communicating and sharing music and listening to it and creating is just in flux.

• 38:38Billy Corgan?

  Are you Duke Ellington fan?

• 38:41Speaker 01

  I've listened to him a lot in college.

• 38:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, so, you know, there's a lot of debate about Ellington's prowess as a composer. And one of the debates that works against Ellington as a composer is that people say what he did, and it's not unlike what a lot of famous bandleaders do, including contemporary bands, is they find people with specialized skillsets.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:05Billy Corgan?

  And then in adapting those specialized skillsets almost compositionally, people confuse the ability of the player to voice something simple in a distinctive way with, let's call it, success as a compositional-

• 39:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I get you. I totally get-

• 39:20Billy Corgan?

  So Cootie Williams is maybe, I'm pretty sure that's one of Ellington's guys, who I think invented the wah-wah, you know, the wah-wah.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 39:28Billy Corgan?

  That's kinda what he was known for, and I'm some fan, I'm sure, will tell me I'm wrong, but-

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:33Billy Corgan?

  No, but I'm saying just for the mental image of it is, is that, you know, he became like a star that people would go to the gig to see Cootie do the thing.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:44Billy Corgan?

  So Ellington being a composer and a bandleader, and this is, you know, 1927 or 1943, whatever, he figures out, well, there's business here, I gotta write Cootie, I gotta set Cootie up.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:57Billy Corgan?

  Because when he plays that solo, the place starts hopping.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:00Billy Corgan?

  So it's an interesting thing, because in many ways, it's part of that tradition where these bandleaders were dependent, you know, charismatic, and like the Dorsey's case, like, you know, kinda savant-level players, but they needed other people.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:19Billy Corgan?

  It couldn't be a one-man band. So there's this tensile point between, like, let's call it the king of the castle-

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:26Billy Corgan?

  And the ones he's gotta bring in to kinda make it all kinda work.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:30Billy Corgan?

  And then, of course, "by the way, I have to rely on you. Yes, I wrote all this crazy stuff, but I still gotta rely on you to play it."

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:37Billy Corgan?

  And, oh, by the way, you gotta play it in a way that I like.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:39Billy Corgan?

  Because I'm the guy who wrote it.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:41Billy Corgan?

  It's a very interesting thing that's kinda lost in our culture.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  Well, it takes an individual that has a strong enough vision and knowing what they want to even be able to direct those things.

• 40:51Billy Corgan?

  How do you, as a composer yourself, how do you look at Frank's composing legacy in hindsight?

• 40:58Speaker 01

  Well Frank wasn't a conventional type of composer. He composed for conventional orchestras and whatnot. But he has his orchestral expression. He has his blues and R and B expression. His high information rock band stuff. And an undiscovered world that is ahead of its time is his Synclavier work. I mean it is.

• 41:31Billy Corgan?

  Is that any of that stuff?

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Have you ever heard any?

• 41:33Billy Corgan?

  Is it released? Yeah. I have no idea.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  If you get a chance to listen to Civilization Phase 3. Or Jazz from Hell. Jazz from Hell. Won a Grammy. Feeding the monkeys of Mo-Mazon. Frank Zappa versus the mothers of prevention. It's unique music.

• 41:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So this is like another chapter that's sort of...

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Another whole brain muscle. That's why he was so extraordinary. But one of his frustrations was that he would write music that people couldn't play the way he wanted.

• 42:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  So when he discovered the Synclavier.

• 42:14Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  It's like you put a button.

• 42:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  And it's there.

• 42:18Billy Corgan?

  This is a bit of a diversion, but people have asked me if I have... Is it synesthesia? Is that the right way to pronounce it? You have synesthesia?

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Not that I know of.

• 42:27Billy Corgan?

  It's somewhere in the internet. It says you have synesthesia.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  The ability to hear colors and see flavors or stuff like that.

• 42:36Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. No.

• 42:38Billy Corgan?

  That's funny.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Not that I...

• 42:39Billy Corgan?

  I love that the internet just sort of makes up stuff about people.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  I will say that I've never mentioned anything like that. The closest I've come is in meditations.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  At times, I've gone deep enough to enter colors. I know this sounds abstract, but then I would assume that some of the principles of synesthesia kinda...

• 43:05Billy Corgan?

  The reason I ask, because obviously it was wrong information, but people who have synesthesia will pull me aside and say, "You must have synesthesia." And I don't think I do. And they're like, "But I know you do, because when I listen to your music, the color palette in your music tonally works for somebody with this condition." Which is a great, kinda weird compliment to get, but I can't see it the way they do.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't either.

• 43:33Billy Corgan?

  I know that when I work, I describe music oftentimes in color.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:38Billy Corgan?

  Like, I'll say, "This guitar sound is purple."

• 43:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think...

• 43:42Billy Corgan?

  Maybe your closet's synesthesia.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would assume that then all producers in the world have it.

• 43:48Billy Corgan?

  Sure, yeah.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Need to be more blue here.

• 43:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, well, there's all that. Okay, I want to talk about something that does connect us together. So, like a lot of nerds in circa 80s, this flexi-disc that comes out. It was a Guitar World, or Guitar... It was Guitar Player, probably?

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Guitar Player at the time.

• 44:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, and the song was "Flexible"?

• 44:11Speaker 01

  The Attitude Song.

• 44:11Billy Corgan?

  The Attitude Song, sorry.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  From the record.

• 44:13Billy Corgan?

  From the record, right. I later got the record, but I...

• 44:16Speaker 01

  You got that record?

• 44:17Billy Corgan?

  I did. But here's the thing about that, and, you know, like myself, you've been interviewed plenty, and you kinda get your list of, "These are the people that I've been influenced by." You name-check people, because it becomes convenient. It's like, "These are my seven guys," but sometimes you leave out the other three that you know maybe people wouldn't know, or whatever. And I would never have thought of you as an influence, but in doing the research on you, I remember getting this flexi-disc. So I would have been about 17 years old. And I swear to God, I listened to it last night, and I was like, "Wow, I ripped a lot of stuff off of you." It's a cool connection that we have, because...

• 44:58Speaker 01

  Because I've ripped a lot of stuff from you.

• 44:59Billy Corgan?

  Oh, well, God bless you. I didn't know that. Okay, now I'm gonna fall on my chair. But...

• 45:06Billy Corgan?

  There's a bigger point here behind, besides my fanboying. But what was so amazing to me about that song at the time, and again, the Attitude Song, '84?

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:20Billy Corgan?

  So, in one, three, four minute go, you play like about eight styles of guitar or something, you know what I mean? And there's a lot of joy in it and a lot of kind of sass in it. And I think I took a lot from that. I think like, kind of like how I was saying, like, you know, when you were listening to Paige, there was still some part of you that had to find Frank Zappa, you know what I mean? You went left. I think you helped me go left in a way. You kind of gave me permission to be less rigid in my thinking about the guitar. Because up to that point, I just wanted to be a shredder like everybody else on the block, you know? So, one day it was Randy Rhoads, the next it was Yngwie.

• 46:03Billy Corgan?

  You know, I mean, heck, I had Tony McAlpine records. You know, I was listening to all that.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  I didn't know that.

• 46:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I was listening, I was total shredder brain.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  I didn't know that.

• 46:11Billy Corgan?

  But ultimately, I got bored with it.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:14Billy Corgan?

  And I almost went through like a weird guilt phase. Like, I could play like that, but it was, my heart wasn't in it.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:22Billy Corgan?

  You know, I reached a point of like, "Yeah, cool, but..."

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:26Billy Corgan?

  Something, something.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, it gets fatiguing. You gotta move to...

• 46:30Billy Corgan?

  But I have to tell you, and I say this with all humility, I remember getting that, I remember listening to it, and it was just like a plastic thing they would put in a record. But I was so blown away that you could play with virtuosity, but with a wink.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:49Billy Corgan?

  It gave me a weird permission to put that into my playing.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  Ah, great, great.

• 46:54Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. So, it's a cool thing, and I would have never thought of it if we hadn't sort of found this moment.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  Oh, that's so interesting.

• 47:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  It's interesting that, because I, you know, Dave Grohl...

• 47:05Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  They made that crazy movie.

• 47:09Billy Corgan?

  Oh, was it the...

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Studio 666.

• 47:12Billy Corgan?

  Horror movie, yeah.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, they filmed it three houses down the street.

• 47:16Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  Dave lives in my neighborhood.

• 47:17Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  And he asked me to go and be in the film.

• 47:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  There's a part where he's supposed to shred.

• 47:24Billy Corgan?

  Oh, and you're the shredder?

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, you know, they filmed me from here. It was really great fun, but... I was sitting with him and Taylor and they were telling me about their "Flexible Influence." It was weird, because when I made that record, I was going through personal transition, you know, psychological. I was coming out of this very, very dark place and had discovered metaphysics and new age.

• 47:51Billy Corgan?

  Was it just personal stuff?

• 47:52Speaker 01

  Personal, just...

• 47:54Billy Corgan?

  Head stuff?

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Head stuff.

• 47:55Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Anything to do with music, though? Or just... okay, it's life.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  My music career was handed to me on a silver platter. I have no prob... it was just been great, great, great. But other things, challenges, you know? And I had gone through this very dark period and Flex... and then I had discovered some light, so to speak. And that started to flow into what I was doing. So "Flexible" was a total home experiment of just doing things that me and my friends could laugh at. You know, I'd go, "Hey, listen to this, listen to this, darn, darn, darn," you know?

• 48:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  And then on a whim, I decided to release it and, you know, it's never thinking anybody would, you know, really have an interest in that fact.

• 48:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. We just reissued it recently, right? Am I crazy?

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, we did like a 36th anniversary. But I would never expect anybody would, because it's such a weird, quirky, obtuse record. But it does have some joy. It's got a lot of joy in it. And David mentioned that he was into it. And he even mentioned the "Attitude" song as being an...

• 49:02Billy Corgan?

  It's a certain permission.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:05Billy Corgan?

  Right? Because if you're down in here, you know, trying to play Phrygian scales, you know, you spend so much time trying to catch up to somebody who's already there.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:16Billy Corgan?

  And even if you do, three years, 30 years, okay, all you've done is just matched their accomplishment.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:23Billy Corgan?

  And I think that was part of my frustration, but I wouldn't have known how to voice it at age 17.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:29Billy Corgan?

  Because I was the kid, when I first started playing the guitar, you know, I was a bit new wavey, you know, this is 80s. But, so the metal kids in school, and I knew them, they all, "Oh, you're playing the guitar." And then after about six months late... after six months of playing, somebody invited me to a jam session or something.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:49Billy Corgan?

  And I remember them all looking at me like...

• 49:53Billy Corgan?

  You've been, are you been taking lessons? And I said, "No." I said, "Where'd you learn how to play like that?" And I said, "I've just been practicing." They couldn't imagine that in six months I had gone from I could barely play, you know, "Stranglehold" by Nugent.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:08Billy Corgan?

  Till I was able to play pretty well.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:11Billy Corgan?

  It was shocking to them.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Because you found an interest.

• 50:14Billy Corgan?

  Well, I was all in. I was four hours a day and not nine, but I was there and I loved it. And my father being a guitar player, I had a very kind of inner high standard that drove me. But at some point, I just sort of reached the thing of like, "This really isn't me."

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 50:29Billy Corgan?

  It's not.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we all go through things like that. I know I did multiple times in various genres. But the cool thing is, the variety is there for you to pick up for a little while, get something out of.

• 50:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Pull into here, maybe you pull into the Kiss garage for a little while, and then you're in the Alan Holsworth garage. But ultimately, your voice is going to come through. And the evidence of that is all of your work.

• 50:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  Because it's authentic.

• 50:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  To the bone. I mean, it doesn't matter if you could, you know, the shredding period for you, I think, was very important for something.

• 51:07Billy Corgan?

  Oh, it created a freedom.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:09Billy Corgan?

  I always say, and because you said it before, but you have to have faculty to express what you feel.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:15Billy Corgan?

  And that's what I always say. I learned how to play whatever I could feel whenever I felt it.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:20Billy Corgan?

  And I don't really feel, other than soloing, I feel no limitation in my playing. I literally can think it and out it comes.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Isn't that nice?

• 51:27Billy Corgan?

  And then as a singer, that's the, you know, you have to have this third-wheel thing over here. So, now we go down this other road. Steve Vai is rock star.

• 51:39Billy Corgan?

  The full embrace, right? So, we got Alcatraz, you're following, "Inve" there. Graham Bonnet, great, great voice. I mean, what a...

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:48Billy Corgan?

  Jimmy Chamberlain of The Pumpkins, favorite singer of all time, Graham Bonnet.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  Really?

• 51:52Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my God, he loves Graham Bonnet.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Graham, he delivered.

• 51:55Billy Corgan?

  I just talked to somebody the other day who plays with Graham and said his voice is still...

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Is it really, that's good to hear?

• 52:01Billy Corgan?

  They said it blows their mind. They get up and sing old, he sings "Rainbow" and stuff. It's like, there it is, there's that guy.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  It's like Glenn Hughes. I just did a session with him the other day and I'm like, "What?" Adrian Baluk, who I've been with for a while.

• 52:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that's like another planet.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  It's different when it comes to this.

• 52:19Billy Corgan?

  So, we don't have to belabor, I did have the Alcatraz Ingve records, because again, I was in my shredding period.

• 52:27Billy Corgan?

  But, okay, so Ingve had a real rep coming in.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:31Billy Corgan?

  You know, with the metal guys and the guitar world, and obviously, he sent everybody back to like, try to relearn whatever the hell he was doing. And I remember seeing Ingve play with, actually with Talis, Billy Sheehan's band, opening. And Aragon Ballroom, you know, Rising Sun Tour.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:50Billy Corgan?

  Jeff Scott Soto was the singer, and I am a Viking. And even at the end of the show, I was leaving, and I was going down the stairs, I'm sure you've played the Aragon Ballroom. But this is an old ballroom where it's on the second floor, so I'm going down the stairs, and I hear like somebody plugging a guitar like, and I think, uh-oh. And I stood on the stairs and waited, and they started playing Highway Star. Billy on bass and Ingve, I think it was Ingve's band, but Billy came out to play bass.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Ah, great.

• 53:17Billy Corgan?

  And you know, with Billy playing,

• 53:21Billy Corgan?

  and, but you know, Ingve back then, it was like, you know, I don't want to assume he was drunk, but he seemed drunk, and you know, he's laughing and he's playing and the guitar and,

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:32Billy Corgan?

  So, he had that weird street rep, so how were the metal fans with you coming in?

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Well,

• 53:39Billy Corgan?

  Because back then, they could be a little,

• 53:41Speaker 01

  Oh, I was slammed. I mean, are you kidding? When I replaced Ingve,

• 53:50Speaker 01

  he had left the band and they still had three gigs left.

• 53:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  So, I had one day to learn the entire set. And I was surprised they hired me, because back then, I went to, it was the only time I ever actually auditioned for something.

• 54:05Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  You show up, and none of them wanted me, except one guy, because after I came in, Chris Impelletary came in.

• 54:13Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  And Chris, he was playing like, sort of like Ingve. But the other, one of the guys in the band just convinced him, we do not want another Ingbe type. And there was something about what I was doing that they liked, so I joined that band. But the first gig, I remember walking towards the stage and everybody was chanting Ingbe. They did not know that he wasn't in the band.

• 54:36Billy Corgan?

  Talk about a setup.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'm like, oh, this is gonna be great. You know, it was, I didn't care if I was humiliated because it was an interesting experience.

• 54:46Billy Corgan?

  Were you trying to play that type of scaling, or were you just kinda doing your own thing?

• 54:49Speaker 01

  No, I couldn't. Who could, you know? And I would do my own kinda thing, which to an Ingbe fan may not be, you know, it's not what they're expecting. But it was so funny when I walked out, I mean, you know, the faces. I think it was, in a sense, successful because nobody cheered, but nobody left. Nobody left.

• 55:14Billy Corgan?

  God.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:16Billy Corgan?

  Sounds like those dreams. Have you ever had the dreams where you're on stage and it all goes wrong? Have you ever had that dream?

• 55:21Speaker 01

  I still have them. There's two reoccurring dreams that I have. One of them is that I'm on stage with Frank and he's counting off something like, you know, Alien Orifice or Redunzel. And I'm like, I haven't played it in 40 years.

• 55:35Billy Corgan?

  Go.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  Go. And that's a reoccurring dream. But, yeah, go on, though.

• 55:43Billy Corgan?

  And then, David Lee Roth, fresh out of Van Halen, that band.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was fun.

• 55:50Billy Corgan?

  Boy, there's that, is there, there's no pro shot concert of that tour.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, isn't that a shame?

• 55:58Billy Corgan?

  There's that one, there's like a bootleg.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, Montreal or something.

• 56:02Billy Corgan?

  You guys are having such fun. It's, the band is fantastic.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a great time.

• 56:09Billy Corgan?

  Roth is in absolute prime. Form.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:13Billy Corgan?

  High on whatever he was high on at the time, MTV.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was a great time because, well, we were young.

• 56:20Billy Corgan?

  How old were you at that time?

• 56:22Speaker 01

  Twenty-five, twenty-six.

• 56:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay, good time to be in a rock band.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:25Billy Corgan?

  Arena rock.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and back then you could, we wore the most outlandish clothes. The stage was like the size of a football field, you know, and you'd just run as fast as you could.

• 56:36Billy Corgan?

  I remember you guys just, there seemed to be a lot of running.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Running, running, running, it was fantastic. It was good for that then.

• 56:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  And, and we played our asses off, you know, it's like, okay, it's not just about the funny clothes you're wearing and running around.

• 56:50Billy Corgan?

  The playing was ridiculous.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Play your ass off, so Billy and I, we honed ourselves, you know, so it was a real special time.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  And it was great while it lasted, and I was able to kind of live in that world because as a teenager, even though I had all this interest in compositional music, I had, the rock music was just so embedded in me. And I knew it was like professional wrestling, in a sense. Where you go out there and you're acting in a sense.

• 57:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  You know, just, you know, a little bit, it's fun.

• 57:25Billy Corgan?

  That's, that's what I kind of was after, was like, did you want to be that guy, or you were just having fun being that guy?

• 57:30Speaker 01

  I was just having fun, you know, it was, I knew that it was fleeting.

• 57:33Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  I knew that it was trendy.

• 57:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  You know, and I knew that I was in a position where I could play my butt off, run around, wear great clothes, and then it'll be over.

• 57:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  And I'll just go back to doing the weird music that I love.

• 57:51Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so, yeah.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:52Billy Corgan?

  So it was kind of a vacation.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  It was like a vacation, but then the Whitesnake gig rolled in.

• 57:56Billy Corgan?

  But don't jump ahead.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 57:58Billy Corgan?

  Slow down, just, sorry. No, because, because, you know, because of your interesting history, it also intersects with other things that people are fascinated by.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:09Billy Corgan?

  So, here's Roth, fresh out of Ann Halen, so there's that.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:13Billy Corgan?

  And he's obviously got something to prove, and he was out to prove it, as he would as an alpha. Then, of course, there's the shadow cast by Eddie.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:23Billy Corgan?

  You know, if Yngwie cast one shadow, Eddie cast the shadow.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:28Billy Corgan?

  So you're, so you went from one fire into a bigger fire.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I kept stepping in something.

• 58:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And... That stuff is what it is. I think now people can see, you know, like I said at the beginning, it's less about who won. Yeah. It's more about who's in the game and who's contributed. Yeah. I think one harp I have about, and one of the reasons I wanted to do the show was, I'm interested in reorienting what classifies as success in American culture. The old version, in my opinion, which is kind of like pre-digital ages, how many did you sell, you know? Yeah. Did you win, or did you lose? And if you, and if you lost, who beat you? Mm-hmm. Right? Like, who's the champ? Mm-hmm. Just use the wrestling thing. I think we're entering a new era where it's not, it's not about who's the champ.

• 59:18Billy Corgan?

  It's like, who's in and who contributes over a sustained arc? Yeah. And even if at times, maybe, the story doesn't get told, there's a lot to learn from the journey of different people, because most of the people who reach a level of acclaim, their story is very unique, and it's, it's a lot more rare than the credit would have you believe. Mm-hmm. Having been in the music industry as long as you have, and I have, you know, one of the things they try to do is, well, we can just get another one of you. Mm-hmm. And go back to Frank saying, you know, there's kind of really only one of you. As an 18-year-old man, that's almost hard to believe. What do you mean, there's one? I mean, there's eight, seven million people on this planet. Yeah, exactly. At some point, you wake up and you look in the mirror and you go, actually, there really is only one. Yes. And that's not a bad thing. No, it's true for everybody. Yeah.

• 1:00:03Billy Corgan?

  Exactly. But I'm saying the business has been oriented, oriented around the idea of convincing people like you and I that we're not that unique. Mm-hmm. And creating a business model that sort of exploits what we do contribute, and then the minute we don't sort of fit in their business model, they toss us out the door. Yeah. I'm not the biggest fan of social media, but it's reoriented, oriented the landscape in a way that's allowed people to understand that people's value carries on a lot farther than what the old models would have you believe. Mm-hmm. So, what's interesting about that period of your life is...

• 1:00:35Billy Corgan?

  You know, you look at this transition from, you know, because basically what people would call Van Hagar went on to be a bigger band in many ways than Van Halen ever was. And you're in that, you're in that very interesting position. You've worked with one crazy alpha in Frank Zappa. Here's another crazy alpha in David Lee Roth, who's not just out to win the world, he's out to prove that he's got the better band, you know what I mean?

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:00Billy Corgan?

  And he's also relying on you to sort of make the case.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:04Billy Corgan?

  So I'm not so much, and if you want to talk about your version of it from, from what it put on you, but I'm interested in how you perceived it from afar, because you don't strike me as somebody who was out to like, "I'm gonna prove Eddie Van Halen wrong." Or, you know, it was, it never felt that way.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  How do you do that?

• 1:01:17Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's a, that's a, that's a different question, but my point is, is a, a person with less confidence, or a person who think they could make their bones on Eddie's loss.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:29Billy Corgan?

  They would, they would have treated that gig a lot differently. You brought a lot of joy and fun to it, and then ultimately led to you having some relationship with Eddie, like he didn't see you as a, as a hostile combatant.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I wasn't.

• 1:01:42Billy Corgan?

  But that's my point.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:44Billy Corgan?

  And I think that's more of a tribute to you, because most people step in that role would think like, "Okay, now I gotta, I gotta win something."

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you know, in the background someplace, there was the extraordinary thought that I need to somehow keep up with Edward, which is an illusion, because you can't.

• 1:02:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  But what I could keep up with was my own expansion. I loved Edward. When he hit the scene, you know what happened.

• 1:02:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  We all just, everybody's input jack closed up.

• 1:02:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  You know? And then what's so interesting is when...

• 1:02:24Billy Corgan?

  I just got that joke.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  When the word was out that David Lee Roth was putting a band together and he was looking for a guitarist, I mean, it was probably the most coveted rock guitar position being...

• 1:02:42Billy Corgan?

  Well, it's like being knighted or something.

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I was in my little apartment in Fairfax Street in Hollywood, and as soon as I heard that news, I turned to my roommate and I said, "That's my gig." But it didn't come from a place of, "That's my gig." It was just this intuitive, this like a little voice that said, "Too late. No matter what you do, even if you don't want it, it's your gig." It's just one of those things. And the next day, the phone rings and it's Dave.

• 1:03:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:03:14Billy Corgan?

  Full diamond Dave, I'm sure.

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  Full diamond. "Yeah, we're doing a movie, doing this. I want you to come on down." You know, Billy turned him on, turned me on to him. So I just knew that I could make it work, because I had a rock and roll fire that I loved in me. And I knew that I wasn't going to try to sound like Edward or do anything like him, because people are very hip to that kind of thing.

• 1:03:46Billy Corgan?

  See, what strikes me now, looking back, because it's, what, 30 years, right?

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, almost 40 years.

• 1:03:51Billy Corgan?

  Okay, right. I think at the time, people quantified it, try to follow my lead on this, because I'm not saying anything negative, is they quantified it as a failure.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:04:02Billy Corgan?

  Because Dave didn't do what he set out to do, which was beat Van Halen.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Well, on that level, if you're comparing that kind of stuff, yeah.

• 1:04:11Billy Corgan?

  Yes, but what's interesting is, because of what you're saying, that's why people revere it now. Because it isn't sub Van Halen. It's the band that he put together to do that. And now it's seen as complimentary to the period, meaning like, it's another high point. Like, look at that tour, look at that band, look at the music. And again, Roth being in his prime was an impressive sight.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. We didn't have the songs.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  Van Halen had the songs for that kind of success. We had a really great-

• 1:04:50Billy Corgan?

  Mickey Rose is pretty good.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're good songs.

• 1:04:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but I know what you mean.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying.

• 1:04:55Billy Corgan?

  Eddie's melodic bass is-

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  He's got his whole ear for writing and Sammy-

• 1:05:01Billy Corgan?

  That's the secret sauce.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  That's the secret. You can't replace that, you know? And we had great music. I love the music. But when I say "we didn't have the songs," I'm talking about those specific things that cross over at radio.

• 1:05:16Billy Corgan?

  That's the- we have a saying in The Pumpkins, "Live by the riff, die by the riff."

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  That's good. I like that.

• 1:05:24Billy Corgan?

  Glad you enjoy that. So riff-based music is very exciting, but it doesn't always translate to "let it be." Let it be, you know what I mean?

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:32Billy Corgan?

  Because it's a different monster chasing a different thing.

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:36Billy Corgan?

  And that's why prime Van Halen is always such a cipher to so many people. Because how do you be riff-exciting and melodically reach everybody?

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:50Billy Corgan?

  Think of a song like "Dance the Night Away"

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:52Billy Corgan?

  Or "Unchained," you know?

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:54Billy Corgan?

  It's like such a cool, like, one of the all-time ultimate cool guitar riffs, the drop tuning, the whole thing, but it's a hit song.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  It's a hit song. And a lot of that stuff, you know, "Jump,"

• 1:06:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  But the stuff with Sammy even, you know?

• 1:06:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, even more melodic.

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  Even more melodic. So, but what we had with Dave Roth, we were like the roving youth gang, you know? Billy and I and Greg-

• 1:06:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, he's great.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  Was really a powerful, crazy, different kind of a unit of intensity.

• 1:06:27Billy Corgan?

  Almost like prog glam or something.

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, prog glam. Good Monica.

• 1:06:33Billy Corgan?

  Right, it's almost hard to describe unless you really get into it, yeah.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it was a good time for it, and we were right on time. And we did great tours and made a couple of really great records and-

• 1:06:45Billy Corgan?

  So, just indulge me one more question. So, from your perspective, first of all, were you conscious of Roth's ambition in that moment? Okay, great, thank you, thank you. So when it stopped working, because at some point it becomes obvious it's not quite working, you know what I mean? Maybe not to the way of, in a megalomaniac way.

• 1:07:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:08Billy Corgan?

  I mean, he was, he was out to win it all. Movies, MTV. So when I say Icarus and the Sun, I mean, he failed going for the top, top, top. And I don't think there's anything wrong with trying.

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:20Billy Corgan?

  I'm saying you're, you have a front row seat of this guy who's like, in it to win it, he's all in.

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:25Billy Corgan?

  He's jacked, he's doing karate, you know, the whole thing. At some point, people around, whether it's atmospherically or the fans, they just don't, aren't buying it. And you were there in that moment. It's a very interesting moment because

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:38Billy Corgan?

  to many fans of Dave, and I'm one, it's kind of where it starts to go leftward because it's like a, like something out of Shakespeare. It starts to topple under its own weight. Maybe the ambition was too big, or you said, hey, we didn't have the songs, like.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  Well, that's really what it was, for anybody. We had good songs and they, they sold us a lot of records and the mystique of the band sold us a lot of records. But ultimately, the reason we're sitting here today is because you had the songs. You just did. The, the evidence is clear. There's something in you that, the little shredder moment here was helpful at, this was helpful at, but you never, you just will never be able to deny or stop the inner melody, it's gonna come out. And my expression of melody, it's not conventionally

• 1:08:31Billy Corgan?

  Sure, I get that.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  except, it's not that kind of thing. You, you give me an orchestra and, you know, I'm, I'm all melody, and even my, my music is very, I'm known for a shredder, but there's melody.

• 1:08:41Billy Corgan?

  No, I, I mean, to me, your, your most beautiful playing is this sort of liquid, beautiful

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, it's, it's

• 1:08:48Billy Corgan?

  very expressive.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Thank you. And, uh, but to have those songs that catapult a band and raise them up. Edward just had that sauce. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:09:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  You couldn't, just like, we can go back and listen to every Van Halen song. And Dave and Edward were a perfect kind of a

• 1:09:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  Communication there. So, I think, to answer your question, that as Dave started to sunset from selling millions of records, uh, we did pretty good with, when I was with him for the two records. The, like I say, if, I believe if we had the songs that were as accessible and inspired in a top forty way.

• 1:09:38Billy Corgan?

  Especially in the time of hair metal.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Then it might have been a bit of a different story.

• 1:09:43Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  But he needs that other partner that's gonna help him do that. And I, I'm, I'm just not that guy.

• 1:09:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  You know, I'm, I'm a different, I'm, I contributed certain things. But, uh, not in that realm. And then when I, I had left the band after those two records.

• 1:10:04Billy Corgan?

  Okay, uh, not looking for gossip, but like, what's, what's the point of decision? Like, this has gone as far as it can go, or I need to go do something else, or I've had my fun, or?

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  Well, I loved making the money. I loved the awards. I loved all this. It was very nice.

• 1:10:19Billy Corgan?

  It's nice, yeah.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  It's nice, but it's not it.

• 1:10:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  You know, I, it's a hard thing to say, but many that are in the position know that you can be successful and still be miserable.

• 1:10:33Billy Corgan?

  Been there.

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, so what is it that, that really satisfies you? And sometimes you don't even have an opportunity to ask yourself that question till you've exhausted those things that you thought

• 1:10:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  were gonna bring that to you.

• 1:10:47Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but you go one more round with Whitesnake and Coverdale.

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  I know, I did, didn't I?

• 1:10:53Billy Corgan?

  You're like, just to be sure.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  Just to be sure. But it was after I recorded Passion and Warfare.

• 1:10:58Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  See, that was, that was the thing. For me, uh, I loved that stuff I was doing with Dave. I loved the rock energy and touring like that, but There was a annoying voice in the back of my head.

• 1:11:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that's obvious.

• 1:11:11Speaker 01

  Saying, "You have to do this." So, I had to, I had to leave. And that's really the gossip.

• 1:11:17Billy Corgan?

  Was your, was your, was your wife part of that? It's like, it's like somebody would sit around the kitchen table and go, "I know I gotta go over there." Like, who in your life was the support to go, "Yes, keep going"? Cause, cause-

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  My inner being.

• 1:11:30Billy Corgan?

  Okay, good. Cause, cause my point is, is I'm a person who blabs in my world all the time. You know what I mean? So, the minute I would start talking about giving up the, the arena and the-

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:41Billy Corgan?

  The money, invariably, somebody's gonna go, "Are you sure you wanna do that?" You know what I'm saying?

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:45Billy Corgan?

  It takes a courageous person in your world to go, "No." Happiness is the preeminent energy that we're after here. Not, not more gold records or-

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I loved it, but I knew it was fleeting and it was too- I didn't wanna compete with trying to have to release that, that whole career of-

• 1:12:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  Pop music and, and are these numbers as good here? And, you know, well, you're short here. And you almost were going, you know, and Radio won't take it because of this. But if you change this, and I've been through all of that, it has its place. But at some point, there's something in you that just says, "You have to do this." You're just, matter of fact, not that you have to do it. Here you go. You're doing it. And I just found myself writing and recording Passion and Morphin.

• 1:12:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  And that record-

• 1:12:36Billy Corgan?

  That's the thing that really-

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was, that was, that to me was success because it felt fulfilling and satisfying.

• 1:12:44Billy Corgan?

  Did you see, it's not fair to call it a cottage industry, but did you see this world of guitar coming?

• 1:12:52Speaker 01

  Well, I knew that anybody, any artist at all that has-

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  Creative impulses that are authentic, they're gonna do something that's worthwhile and relevant. It's like, I hear these kids say from around the world all the time, "I can't make it as an instrumental guitar player in Poland because of this, this, and this." And you were able to release instrumental guitar records because Joe Satriani had a record out that...

• 1:13:25Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:13:26Speaker 01

  Or Jeff Beck. And my response to that is always, they didn't wait for anybody.

• 1:13:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  You know, they, these people that have, that in them, they're just gonna do it and then let everything else...

• 1:13:40Billy Corgan?

  What I mean by cottage industry is, and again, mid 80s, I'm with you. I'm like, I'm reading the guitar magazine. I know what you're doing. I see what you're doing. You know what I mean? And including all the other people of that, of that time.

• 1:13:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:55Billy Corgan?

  I mean, I'm getting the magazine every month and this amp and this guitar and then Floyd Rosen, whatever.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:02Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  It was fun.

• 1:14:03Billy Corgan?

  But I'm saying if you'd asked me a ground zero, 1990, early 90s, when grunge starts to kick in.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:11Billy Corgan?

  And what was it, Gary Hoey?

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Gary Hoey?

• 1:14:14Billy Corgan?

  Hoey. Remember he had that big instrument, it was one instrument song he had, it was MTV, remember?

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember.

• 1:14:19Billy Corgan?

  So, but I'm saying outside of that, if you'd said, would you place a bet on, on a bunch of guitar players being able to go out and tour and only play the guitar?

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  I see ya.

• 1:14:31Billy Corgan?

  And sell records and be able to teach instructional classes online? Or, or like Uli John Roth will do, he'll come to town and he'll have like a bit of a symposium and create a business model strictly around guitar playing. I would've said, there's no way in heck, like, who, there aren't enough guitar players in the world who wanna sit there and, and it's actually happened. Like, now there's 10,000 guitar pedals where there used to be...

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:14:57Billy Corgan?

  200.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:59Billy Corgan?

  There's so many guitar, more guitar manufacturers. You know, like, it's, it's exploded in a way that, did you, I'm saying, did you see that coming? Cause I didn't.

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  Not the way it did.

• 1:15:11Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  Because the industry didn't cater to that. But I did know that if something was worth its salt, it could creep into the mainstream.

• 1:15:25Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  And there were instrumental songs, not mine.

• 1:15:28Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  But Satriani, Eric Johnson.

• 1:15:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:32Speaker 01

  That did creep in. And that's nice, but to me, it's not, it's nothing I want to chase.

• 1:15:39Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  It compromises your freedom.

• 1:15:42Billy Corgan?

  But, but the point is, and again, cottage industry, and again, it's not a fair term. It's, it's, maybe the foundational basis that I'm not laying is, it's about the integrity of the pursuit. Like, let's call it guitar for guitar's sake. I never would have thought that would be a business there.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 1:16:00Billy Corgan?

  In essence, you would be forced to be the guy in Whitesnake, and that would be your gig, because there would be no better gig for you to have.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:07Billy Corgan?

  You actually made a gig that was comparable, and you would argue, I think, that was better for you.

• 1:16:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:14Billy Corgan?

  Because it allowed you to have this free range of expression.

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:17Billy Corgan?

  And that's what's so beautiful about it, because sort of through talent and guile, you build something that I, and I was there, I didn't see it, you know what I mean? I thought it was too nerd land or something, you know?

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was very fortunate, because Passion and Warfare was kind of like a pet project, was a guilty pleasure. And I, when I was making it, I thought it was the end of my career.

• 1:16:41Billy Corgan?

  Is that a goodbye?

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  Well, I thought, nobody's gonna listen to this. It's, it's not Dave Roth. And I wasn't in Whitesnake at the time.

• 1:16:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  So, um, then when the Whitesnake offer came, I was put back into that pop rock.

• 1:16:59Billy Corgan?

  One more time.

• 1:16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, one more time. And I knew, again, I knew it was

• 1:17:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  short-lived and fleeting, but could be a lot of fun. And all of those things, like platinum records and a lot of money and all that.

• 1:17:12Billy Corgan?

  A good time for Whitesnake, too.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Yes, it, that stuff happens, and I never take that for granted. But it can't buy the satisfaction I feel when I listen to Passion and Warfare. It just can't.

• 1:17:24Billy Corgan?

  That's really beautiful.

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know what that's like.

• 1:17:28Billy Corgan?

  I do, I do, but, but it's, again.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  But your music has. You know.

• 1:17:34Billy Corgan?

  Well, thank you, but I would say this to people who aren't musicians. Pop music, by and large, has a built-in form of compromise.

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:46Billy Corgan?

  Back to Eddie for a second. What's so beguiling about Eddie was he really didn't compromise.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:51Billy Corgan?

  And it worked.

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 1:17:52Billy Corgan?

  But that's like one in a billion, literally, probably even one in four billion.

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:59Billy Corgan?

  To play that weird.

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:01Billy Corgan?

  And have those weird arrangements, like, you know, the bridge in Unchained. But da boom.

• 1:18:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, right.

• 1:18:06Billy Corgan?

  What the hell is that? Like, who writes that in a conventional bridge that's gonna go on the radio? Nobody.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:13Billy Corgan?

  So he got away with a form of murder.

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:15Billy Corgan?

  Because for the rest of us mortals, it's like, if you play that weird, you're not going on the radio.

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:20Billy Corgan?

  So you knew when you jumped in that pool, okay, this is not a commercial venture.

• 1:18:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. One of the things I noticed also about the Van Halen camp was there was a chemistry. So Alex Van Halen is...

• 1:18:37Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah. Unbelievable.

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  Unbelievable. People don't know how much control he had. He also has an inspired ear for cutting songs to...

• 1:18:49Billy Corgan?

  Good genetics, right?

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But Eddie has a great ear for the riffs. But Alex and Dave played a very big part on shaping that.

• 1:19:00Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's the frustration about being in a great band, is you ultimately have to admit that your other bandmates had something to do with the success.

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  Right? It's true.

• 1:19:08Billy Corgan?

  It's so frustrating.

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 1:19:09Billy Corgan?

  Okay. We're almost done. Thank you so much for indulging me.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  I'm here as long as you need.

• 1:19:14Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Beekeeping.

• 1:19:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:16Billy Corgan?

  Take me into beekeeping.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  Oh, it's great.

• 1:19:18Billy Corgan?

  So we have bees, but our bees have died, and then we get more bees.

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:23Billy Corgan?

  Do the bee people understand? It's like, it's hard to keep bees, right?

• 1:19:27Speaker 01

  No, it's actually pretty easy.

• 1:19:29Billy Corgan?

  Okay, tell me the secret, because we've lost a lot of bees.

• 1:19:31Speaker 01

  Did you keep them? Did you have hives?

• 1:19:33Billy Corgan?

  We live on a property where we have a lot of woodland. And my wife's made an arrangement where a gentleman who does bees... It's happened to use our property.

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  Oh, okay, so I know what happened. So, back when I started with bees about 25 years ago, or 30 years ago, was, it was a simple, we bought this house in Encino, two acres. Place was vacant for 10 years.

• 1:19:57Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:19:58Speaker 01

  So, I'm trying to research, how am I gonna, you've gotta plant stuff, my wife wanted a garden, I wanted some fruit trees, and I realized, I discovered that honeybees are incredible pollinators.

• 1:20:08Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  And I thought, well, that would be an eclectic hobby. That would be me, you know?

• 1:20:13Billy Corgan?

  So, are there photos of you in the beekeeping suit?

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, no, I, for, but, years, I still have bees, I got them right now. It was a great hobby.

• 1:20:22Billy Corgan?

  Is it, do you, do you name your honey? Is it the vi-honey?

• 1:20:24Speaker 01

  Fire garden honey.

• 1:20:25Billy Corgan?

  See.

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  I named it after one of my records. But it's a simple hobby, but it can be complex if you get into it. And I know way too much about bees.

• 1:20:34Billy Corgan?

  Give me the 60-second zen of beekeeping.

• 1:20:37Speaker 01

  You're with the bees, they have a fascinating social infrastructure, they're calming, you're with nature, they make honey, they, they really are extraordinary. And they are great, they're vital for the environment.

• 1:20:55Billy Corgan?

  Very much so.

• 1:20:56Speaker 01

  Certain aspects of the environment.

• 1:20:57Billy Corgan?

  Well, you know, there's this theory that cell phones and, is what's called...

• 1:21:00Speaker 01

  It's all bull.

• 1:21:01Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I didn't know.

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  I think. Because what happened when your, your, your guy was, when you were losing your hives and whatever, it was called colony collapse disorder.

• 1:21:09Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:21:10Speaker 01

  And basically, in a nutshell, there was a lot of theories of what that might be, cellphone, cell towers, pesticides, this kind of thing, none of it made sense to me. Because the bees, and many other animals, get their directional facility from the poles, the gravitational pole, the pole, the sun.

• 1:21:27Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  You know, the position of the sun. And it didn't, the bees weren't dying, they just, they, well, they were dying, but they weren't returning to the hive.

• 1:21:36Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:21:36Speaker 01

  They'd go out and they wouldn't come home.

• 1:21:38Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  And this happened 100 years ago, and it happened all around.

• 1:21:42Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so do they know what causes this collapse?

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  Well... I thought it has to be something to do with the sun, the poles, and then finally, a researcher out of UCLA had a theory that it would, because at that time, there was huge sun.

• 1:22:02Billy Corgan?

  Oh, sun, solar.

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  Solar storms and, you know.

• 1:22:05Billy Corgan?

  Solar flares.

• 1:22:06Speaker 01

  Solar flares, yeah, sorry. And there was other, at that time also, animals, dolphins.

• 1:22:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, and beeching, whales beeching.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, they were all going crazy.

• 1:22:17Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  So that's what I might assume it was, because it happened all around the world at the same time, and then it's dissipated. Now the bees are okay.

• 1:22:27Billy Corgan?

  Did you know honey's the only food stuff in the world that does not spoil?

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  Yep. It can last 2,000 years, unless, oddly enough, two things will destroy it. Water.

• 1:22:40Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't get water in there. You can get botulism. And you don't want to take your spoon and dip it in the honey and put it in your mouth, then put it back, because the enzymes dissolve the honey. I know too much about honey.

• 1:22:55Billy Corgan?

  That's what I was gonna say. This is a whole separate... Okay. Couple rapid-fire questions. The seven-string guitar.

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:04Billy Corgan?

  You're to blame for nu metal. Yes or no?

• 1:23:08Speaker 01

  Well, the guys that wrote it and played it are more to blame.

• 1:23:11Billy Corgan?

  Isn't it cool, though? Isn't it cool that they took something that you made for one use and took it a completely different direction and have done such cool stuff?

• 1:23:20Speaker 01

  It was glorious to watch. And you know what, Bill? I knew they were gonna do it. Because I was doing it with Whitesnake, because I had the seven-string. But my heavy sensibilities are different than the young guys that came along. And I remember, we released it, and it did okay. And then it started to fail, you know, it started to slow down. And Ibanez was gonna discontinue it, and I told him, "Don't. Give it a little more time."

• 1:23:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  Because I knew that there was gonna be fans, young kids that were starting to play that, would see the potential in it.

• 1:23:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  And in my mind's ear, I was hearing these...

• 1:24:01Speaker 01

  I was hearing what was gonna be happening in a sense. And I remember I was driving down the street one day, years later, and I hear this music on the radio. I'm like, what the fuck is... And I pull my car over. I'm like, that's a seven string. And it's not me.

• 1:24:15Billy Corgan?

  Was it Korn, perhaps?

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  It was Korn.

• 1:24:16Billy Corgan?

  Playing an A.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:18Billy Corgan?

  Wasn't enough to stay in the B. You gotta drop that.

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  You gotta lower the jockstrap, you know? They were fantastic.

• 1:24:25Billy Corgan?

  So good.

• 1:24:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, cuz I worked with Jonathan, the lead singer, Korn, on something, a single of theirs that came out. And he was like, at some point, we were trying to find a melody cuz, you know, it's riff music, right?

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:40Billy Corgan?

  And he was like, "I've done 14 songs, 14 albums in the key of A." Right? See, that's a guitar player joke for you.

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:24:51Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Another simple finish-it-up question. You've stood on two different peaks, which is very interesting. The big arena rock peak and your own, I don't know what you wanna call it. You know, but you've also been there with Frank, too, right? It's like prog peak, my own music peak, you know, self-identity.

• 1:25:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:11Billy Corgan?

  I think you've said that your peak is a lot more fun.

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  Well...

• 1:25:16Billy Corgan?

  If you had to choose, I guess, is the unfair question.

• 1:25:20Speaker 01

  Well, they both really... All of the peaks that I've had the great honor of peaking have all had something in them that was very rewarding, very fulfilling. I mean, I got to be a rock star in the 80s. I mean, that...

• 1:25:37Billy Corgan?

  Good time.

• 1:25:37Speaker 01

  It was so great.

• 1:25:39Billy Corgan?

  Thank God you were married.

• 1:25:41Speaker 01

  Yes. And I was very, oddly enough, you know, I was very straight. But I also really enjoy...

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  The ability to go out and play for other guitar players. You know, the guitar is a universal instrument. And the fans of the guitar are rabid. You know, they are so passionate about the guitar. And they're all over the world. And I'm fortunate enough to where I've got a foot in on that little pocket. So wherever I go around the world, they come.

• 1:26:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:26:17Billy Corgan?

  I think in a weird way, it's brought the guitar back somehow.

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  Well, I think it...

• 1:26:22Billy Corgan?

  It almost had to kind of go back to a different root and rebuild back up.

• 1:26:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:27Billy Corgan?

  Because at some point, it's not an instrument of limitation.

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:34Billy Corgan?

  You know that. But it can be. Because at some point, you're going to hit some wall with it. The way it's tuned.

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:41Billy Corgan?

  The way the frets are work, whatever. There's just a point where you kind of look at it and go, I don't know what else to play. I've played...

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:46Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:26:47Speaker 01

  Well, then you do things like Build the Hydra or something.

• 1:26:49Billy Corgan?

  Right? Can you explain that what that is? I know what that is.

• 1:26:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Hydra is a guitar that I had built, that Ibanez built. It's wild looking.

• 1:26:57Billy Corgan?

  It's this...

• 1:26:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's got three necks. It's got a bass neck that has two fretless strings. Seven-string tuned down. And 12-string with half of its fretless. And it's got like 13 harp strings.

• 1:27:13Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:27:13Speaker 01

  It's got synthesizers, pyos.

• 1:27:19Billy Corgan?

  I haven't seen you play this thing live, but I have to come see.

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  Have you seen the video?

• 1:27:22Billy Corgan?

  I have not seen the video.

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  You'll get a kick out of it.

• 1:27:24Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I will find it. Okay, last question.

• 1:27:26Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:27:27Billy Corgan?

  Ready? Can you be too good at guitar?

• 1:27:30Speaker 01

  Can you be too... Well, that's like saying...

• 1:27:32Billy Corgan?

  It's a trick question.

• 1:27:33Speaker 01

  Can you be too thin or too rich if you're a rock star? Can you be too good? Well, that's a... It's up to the player. It's up to what they do with it.

• 1:27:41Billy Corgan?

  This is my show. It's yes or no. Can you be too good at guitar?

• 1:27:46Speaker 01

  In my opinion, no.

• 1:27:47Billy Corgan?

  Okay, perfect.

• 1:27:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:48Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. Bless you. Thank you.