Daryl Hall, Part 1 | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan joins Daryl Hall at home for Part 1 of an expansive conversation on the craft of collaboration, the roots that shaped him, and the long road to “Sara Smile.” Daryl retraces his path from doo-wop street corners and Philly R&B to early sessions with Gamble & Huff and Thom Bell, the Atlantic years with the legendary Ahmet Ertegun and Arif Mardin, a left-turn album with Todd Rundgren, and the creative pivot that set the stage for Hall & Oates’ breakout at RCA. Along the way, he shares candid thoughts on resisting labels, finding joy in collaboration, and what it means to move seamlessly between genres. Subscribe to the Magnificent Others YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO?sub_confirmation=1 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Let me tell you something. I am a Bombas super fan. I just went through all of my socks. You know, the drawer organization that comes over you in the fall. I got rid of every pair of socks because they were so worn out, so gross. I don't like wearing them, but guess what stayed? My Bamba socks. They're the only ones that made the cut. Also, they have new suede moccasins. They're perfect for fall with cushy soles and sheerling lining and water-resistant suede. And their slippers are everything you'd want for a cozy night in, made with the softest, squishiest materials. Then there's Bombas Compression Sock Collection. You know I love those for my airplane rides. Specialized designs for travel, everyday workout, and recovery. There's a fatigue-fighting pair for every moment. Merino wool blend pairs to keeping toes warm, sweat-wicking, sports socks for fall race training,

• 0:43Speaker 00

  and dressy styles for any fall weddings. Bombas makes buttery and breathable underwear that feel like nothing under your clothes, plus t-shirts that feel so soft and fit just right. And the best part about Bombas, for every item you purchase, they donate an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchase equals one donated. Head over to bombas.com/audio and use code AUDIO for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash AUDIO, code AUDIO at checkout.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  There's an effortlessness about it. Yeah, yeah, it did. That's always been. I never, I never tried too hard. You don't really have that. You've sort of just ignored all of it. I didn't. Philly was very resistant to all that stuff. You know, they didn't even like the Beatles until it up.

• 1:28Billy Corgan?

  Daryl, thank you so much for being on my podcast. It's a great honor. We're here in your beautiful home.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33Billy Corgan?

  Undescribed, undisclosed. Sorry, in wrestling, we say parts unknown.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38Billy Corgan?

  So we're part, we're in part.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, it's, it's easy to find where anybody lives these days, so.

• 1:42Billy Corgan?

  That's true. That's true. I've had my battles with Google, Google asking them to remove my name off of searches.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  Good luck.

• 1:49Billy Corgan?

  I want to start with your latest album, which is the D album.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:53Billy Corgan?

  Work with Dave Stewart of Eurythmics fame. I know Dave a little bit.

• 1:59Billy Corgan?

  I was sort of interested because of your long history of working with different people. Do you do you like working with a partner? Is that something you sort of welcome?

• 2:10Speaker 01

  It's kind of obvious that I

• 2:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  My whole career has been based on working with a partner.

• 2:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, so I'm but I'm asking for your I because I didn't find a lot of information like let's call it from a psychological point of view. Why you like working with a partner?

• 2:22Speaker 01

  The truth is I love collaboration. I that that's my thing. I don't know why. I mean, I'm perfectly capable. I do it all the time of writing songs on my own. That's that's not the issue at all. But I like that interaction thing. I like what happens when you put two two different people, usually two different people. I don't like it when it gets too too many more people than that.

• 2:43Billy Corgan?

  Too many cooks in the kitchen.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, too many cooks. But how that what happens when when that chemistry comes together? And I really enjoy that. I mean, that's what that's what the L F D H, you know, Life in Daryl's House show is based on is that kind of thing. That's what made me one of the reasons that made me do it. And it's and it's it's sort of what I like to do with people. I mean, I like that songwriting team thing.

• 3:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I saw where you referred to Dave as your shadow partner. Is that a?

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Well, he he is. I mean, Dave and I have been working together since nineteen eighty five. Yeah.

• 3:22Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  I mean, we did an album, a complete album together, and then we've been doing one one off things over the years. Ever since then.

• 3:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I'm curious. As somebody, I've never worked with Dave. I know him, like I said, I know him a little bit. But what is it about Dave in the studio? Because he's been such a successful collaborator with so many different great talents.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  He's like me. He likes to work with other people.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  He he's good at it. He and I, I can't speak for other people. We are both very spontaneous people. You know, he he's extremely talented guy. His mind is going a thousand, you know, per minute. And and and I we don't waste any time, you know, we wish it's a

• 4:07Speaker 01

  And sometimes we scrap it and sometimes we start over, you know, whatever. But there's always some kind of action going, moves and moves and moves and and I I really hate that thing that when you're sitting with somebody to write a song and everybody's kind of just sitting there, you know, thinking and thinking and, you know, that's soul destroying, that that is.

• 4:31Billy Corgan?

  Is it partly the world that you grew up in, which really was based on that coming in a room and making magic happen in the neighborhood?

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I learned that. I learned that was from the earliest, from Gamal and Huff and people like that.

• 4:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  And and you know, the Philly guys that that I started with. And that was.

• 4:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  That's what we did.

• 4:49Billy Corgan?

  In listening to your new record, I had this sort of revelation that I'd never had with you before. And I thought it was, it brought to mind something that's fair and unfair about you, about not you, but about how people perceive you, which is that I think you're in very rare company. When I look at your generation, Elton John, David Bowie, Billy Joel, and I guess McCartney by extension, where you seem to move seamlessly between genres and styles, like it's almost like effortless. There's a sort of joy with oscillating between, but very few people are highly skilled at it and had great success with it.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:27Billy Corgan?

  But I feel like in a weird way, you never got credit like some of those other people did for being able to move that way.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Not not earlier I didn't, but I think now I am. I'm getting plenty of credit for it.

• 5:38Billy Corgan?

  Well, you deserve more. That's my.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Well, thank you. But but you know, that all those people you mentioned, they're they're very, they they could move seamlessly and within the different genres, just like me. And first of all, it requires, you got to be able to do it. It's as simple as that.

• 5:55Billy Corgan?

  But it also comes from a love of music.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Well, absolute, a knowledge of music and almost a cyclopedic knowledge of music.

• 6:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  You have to be, you have to be at home with all these different genres. You can't just like fake it.

• 6:10Billy Corgan?

  What were some of those?

• 6:13Billy Corgan?

  Who were some of the people not so much just that inspired, but you gave you that sense that rock and roll could really move in a 360, you know, because I had similar things where people would question me like, why are you not staying in one lane? And I always thought that's

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Well, that was the biggest problem that I had in the early days because people couldn't understand or didn't want me to not be in one lane. That was, that was the golden age of soul critics, you know?

• 6:41Billy Corgan?

  No, they're still there.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  They're still there, but that was the golden age. And, and you know, it's like if you're not

• 6:50Speaker 01

  playing that game, then, then they don't know what you are. They don't have a, they don't know how to label you. The old story. It's the oldest story of music. But I, I just, I don't know. I like music. I listened to lots and listened. I don't listen to so much music now, but I listened to a lot of music and different ones. And I really, I know what I like. And it doesn't matter about genre.

• 7:14Billy Corgan?

  But when you were growing up, was there a station that sort of, you know, because obviously, and I have a story I want to tell in a second, but obviously you have a great love for soul music and R and B, whatever we would call it now. It's changed.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, I grew up with it. I mean, that's baby.

• 7:31Billy Corgan?

  Is that the kind of Philly?

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you lived in Philly and you're a musician, I think you would move toward that. That was baby food.

• 7:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  And also.

• 7:41Billy Corgan?

  Can you name some of the bands?

• 7:43Speaker 01

  The Intruders and, you know, Jack in the Starlights, you know, all those kind of people. I started in the doo-wop world, you know, I was a street corner singer and with various people, whoever happened to be around. And that's how I broke into whatever and how I met people like Abel and Huff and all that kind of thing. It came directly from the street. And, and I was interested in those days, there was, there was a DJ called Jerry Belavitt in Philadelphia that played really old. Like R and B music, street corner music, all that kind of thing. And I was, I was a fool for that kind of stuff, you know?

• 8:26Speaker 01

  And then, and then I moved seamlessly and the sound of Philadelphia is based on that. You know, it's, it's, it's all very vocal oriented and all that kind of thing. And, and, and so I moved right into the, to the world of, you know, with Tommy Bell and, and Gamal Huf and all those kind of people.

• 8:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So, excuse me. My little story is, um, my father was a musician. I talk about it all the time on my podcast, but, um, you know, a gigging musician, he never had any real success, but, um, I remember, uh, there were always forty fives around the house. So somewhere circa nineteen seventy five or so, um, I pick up a record, your record, Sarah Smile. And I have a very distinct memory of listening to that song for the first time and just being like, I didn't know what I was listening to, which is always to me, the great revelation with music, right? It's like, I knew where it was coming from because my daddy liked that type of music. My dad only loved soul music. So I instantly understood where you were coming from. But I thought, wait, this is different. And my dad would sing your song because he had a similar voice to yours, more high and reedy than yours.

• 9:27Billy Corgan?

  But so, uh, hearing my daddy sing that song and having a personal connection to that song, I think it's interesting that we're, um, I, I can remember that moment, you know what I mean? And, and, and you, you really hit on something in that, um. Well, obviously in, in that moment, it's the template for your, your success. It's this, I know they call it blue eyed soul or something, you know?

• 9:48Speaker 01

  A name I hate, but.

• 9:49Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Tell me why you hate that name?

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Because I think it's racist. I mean, I'm a soul sayer, that's all. I mean, I, I, I started as that. I don't, I don't like to put, uh, I don't like to put racial names.

• 10:02Billy Corgan?

  Well, my, to be fair, my father felt the same way. You know what I mean? He had a great love of African American music, but he didn't see himself as the white guy playing in the black band.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 10:12Billy Corgan?

  He was just like, we're all doing this music because we love.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  It just do it because that it felt right.

• 10:16Billy Corgan?

  So when you say that, I, I feel that because that's the way I was raised too.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:20Billy Corgan?

  Um, okay. The temp tones. I didn't know about the temp tones. I did do my, my temp tones deep dive.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  That was, that was, we, we, the reason we had that name is we were, we were all freshmen at Temple University.

• 10:35Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  People used to think we got it from the Temptations, which, you know, that, which, they were my idols, of course, but that isn't where it came from.

• 10:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  But so, so we, that we got it, it was just, it's street corner stuff. We, we, we sang on the corner.

• 10:48Billy Corgan?

  Well, what struck me in listening, it's Girl, I Love You was the, the one single, right?

• 10:51Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:53Billy Corgan?

  I mean, you do a pretty good Eddie Kendricks at, at, whatever you were 18 years

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Well, I, I was, I was still a sieve in those days, you know?

• 11:02Billy Corgan?

  But what I'm saying is, is not any, not just anybody can do Eddie Kendricks. I mean, that's a very particular way of singing and, and even.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Well, it's falsetto singing.

• 11:10Billy Corgan?

  Okay, as you know, even to sing with good pitch up in falsetto, that's a difficult thing to do. Most people couldn't do it. So it's all there, even at whatever you were 18 years old.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:19Billy Corgan?

  Did you feel that? Did you see people reacting to you in that way?

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But I took it for granted, I have to say.

• 11:25Billy Corgan?

  Tell me, tell me how you took it for granted.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  I just could do it, you know? I mean, I was, I was, I always sang, you know? And I listened to the, that music.

• 11:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  I mean, I knew that stuff from my earliest days. So that's how my voice developed.

• 11:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I don't want to say it was easy, but I mean, did it come easy to you?

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  Yes, it did.

• 11:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. There's an effortlessness about it.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I did.

• 11:49Billy Corgan?

  That's always been.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  I never, I never tried too hard.

• 11:52Billy Corgan?

  See, I'm jealous of people like you. It just, you open your mouth.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  When you have a high voice, what am I saying?

• 11:56Billy Corgan?

  Well, what I'm saying is, I, I.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Your voice is like, sort of, sometimes.

• 12:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  On the edge of falsetto.

• 12:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  You know?

• 12:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. That's where I like my voice best.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I like, I think you, you sing very well that way.

• 12:10Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. God bless you. So, you know, there's this night, I know you've told this story a thousand times, but I still think it's important to share here, you know, the, you, you, you uptown theater, you guys win this tal- talent contest.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it was, I, it was, uh, yeah.

• 12:31Billy Corgan?

  The Delphonics were your competition?

• 12:33Speaker 01

  No, it wasn't.

• 12:35Billy Corgan?

  Blame the internet.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  It's funny, stories get convoluted. I knew the Delphonics when we were teenagers. Cause I, my girlfriend went to Overbrook High School, so, and they were Overbook guys. And, uh, and, and so I knew them and, and they had a record out right before, uh, well, how do I put this? I, I was friends with Tommy Bell and he said, I got this group and I just, I just did this song, Tell Me What You Think. And it was, it was called He Don't Really Love You. And it was like, I thought at the time, I thought it was the greatest song I ever heard. And I was like, forget about it. But that's not about the Uptown. The, uh, right around then, we were trying to figure out how to get a record deal.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  And, uh, and, and so we, we, we did the old traditional thing. We did a talent show at the Uptown Theater. It was like being at the Apollo.

• 13:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Uh, the Philadelphia version. And, uh, James Brown Band backed us up.

• 13:29Billy Corgan?

  So it was, it was at the, it was the earlier version, like the Clyde Stubblefield version? It wasn't the Bootsy Band yet, was it?

• 13:35Speaker 01

  No, no, it was, it was Maceo.

• 13:39Billy Corgan?

  I mean, for somebody who loves soul music, you must have been like.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  I was, it's funny, I was oblivious to it. I just took it for granted. I, I, I.

• 13:48Billy Corgan?

  You look back now though.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  I go in the dressing room and see Smokey Robinson and go, hey man, how you doing? You know, that's, that's the way it was. It was, it was, I, I don't know what was the matter with me or how I didn't, how I didn't.

• 13:59Billy Corgan?

  Did you feel like you belonged?

• 14:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:01Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  That's what it was.

• 14:02Billy Corgan?

  Well, you did, so.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  I did belong and I felt like I belonged. So, and they treat, everybody treated me like I was part of the whole world. So, uh, I, uh, won, we won the, the contest and Jimmy Bishop, which was, uh, uh, he was a, a DJ for WDAS in Philadelphia. He, he hooked me up. He was kind of trying to be my manager and he hooked me up with, with Kenny and Leon. And, and we did Girl, I Love You.

• 14:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  And that was it. Yeah.

• 14:33Billy Corgan?

  Is it true you worked for them a little bit as a studio musician and were part of?

• 14:37Speaker 01

  I used to work at the, I used to hang out and work at Cigna Sound.

• 14:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Where all that stuff happened.

• 14:43Billy Corgan?

  Was it just whoever was around?

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was kind of on the B team. I wasn't, but I played with all those guys. I mean, I was, I sat in rooms and played with them.

• 14:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. What was it about Gamble and Huff? You know, I mean, they're legendary now and, you know, they're giving credit, obviously if they didn't do it alone, but they're giving credit as kind of creating what we know is the Philly sound, at least the popular version of it. What was it about them that, that you can tell us that made them so, you know, as producers maybe is what I'm after?

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Well, Kenny was a really good organizer and Leon is a great piano player, musician. I mean, just great. And I, I mean, I learned so much from Leon. I just used to sit there and watch him. But, uh,

• 15:29Speaker 01

  but who can say what made them great? They were a great combination. They knew how to do it.

• 15:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  And, and they, they picked good people. They picked people just off the street, man. I mean, you know, they're early, they're early, people like Barbara Mason and, and, and the Intruders and, and people like that. They were just guys, guys that were, I mean, I worked at a clothing store with, with, with one of the guys who was the Intruders, you know, on Ridge Avenue. I mean, you know, it was, that's the people that they picked to do this, you know?

• 16:03Billy Corgan?

  Well, it's, you know, Saks has a similar story, you know, like Booker T lived like a block away.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  That's what I mean. Motown too, even Motown. I mean, they, they picked people out of high school.

• 16:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  That's, that's how it worked. You know, it was.

• 16:18Billy Corgan?

  Did you have a sense there was a sort of a magical thing happening or was it just that was your world?

• 16:22Speaker 01

  It was my world. I mean, I, I, I knew something was happening for sure. I mean, I loved that.

• 16:29Billy Corgan?

  And how did your parents perceive your musical aspirations?

• 16:33Speaker 01

  My parents were both musicians too. So, so they, they were nothing but encouragement.

• 16:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:39Billy Corgan?

  Awesome.

• 16:45Billy Corgan?

  I'm curious. Because most of your generation suddenly gets, you know, it's the summer of love psychedelic. You seem to resist.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  I had nothing to do with that.

• 16:57Billy Corgan?

  That's what I'm asking. It's very rare, you know what I mean? Because usually somebody has some psychedelic fuzz drip single in the corner. You don't really have that. You sort of just ignored all of it.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  I didn't. Philly was very resistant to all that stuff. You know, they didn't even like the Beatles in Philadelphia.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  It took, it took them a while to figure that out.

• 17:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  You know, it's, it's a very insular place. It still is. Philadelphia is a very insular town and in every way. Culturally, musically, everything.

• 17:28Billy Corgan?

  Is that because it's sort of in the shadow of New York, you think?

• 17:30Speaker 01

  I think that has a lot to do.

• 17:31Billy Corgan?

  I found that in my own life.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:33Billy Corgan?

  Dealing with people from Philadelphia.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:35Billy Corgan?

  They have this kind of New York thing. And Chicago has its own version of a New York thing. Because living in Chicago, all we ever hear about is New York. And we're like, what the fuck?

• 17:43Speaker 01

  It's a similar thing. There's a, there's an automatic chip on the shoulder.

• 17:46Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, but it's funny because, well, New York is, is, is, you know, dismissive of Philadelphia. And Philadelphia has the chip on their shoulder about it, you know? They try to be, they try to be New York and they know they never will be.

• 18:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  It's, that's sort of the premise of Rocky.

• 18:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So you meet John Oates when you're both in college.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:11Billy Corgan?

  So you're a senior, he's a freshman.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  Freshman in Temple, yeah.

• 18:14Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 18:16Billy Corgan?

  Was there an immediate personal kinship, immediate musical kinship? What was it about what drew you?

• 18:20Speaker 01

  It was, it was student stuff. I mean, we, we became roommates because we both were slightly out of town. We needed a place to stay. So we got this, this apartment in Center City. And, and, and I knew that, well, actually I met him at a, a show at the Delphi Ballroom. He had a, he had a band and I had the Temptones and I met him at this thing. And so we, we kind of knew each other sort of.

• 18:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Way. And, and then we, we both needed roommates. We got together and we would sit there. He'd be sitting in the quarter playing the guitar. It's like college stuff. He'd sit there playing the guitar and I'd say, well, let me sing along, you know, and that kind of stuff. And, and that developed into, maybe we'll try writing a couple of songs together. Although we never really wrote a lot together and. But we would, I said, okay, let's perform together. So we, we had the duo thing, the two, the two guys, I played mostly piano, uh, electric piano and he played guitar and, and we got a following going in, in, in Philadelphia. Then we moved to New York.

• 19:27Billy Corgan?

  Was the foundational idea with you two, um, like I'll do my songs, you do yours, we'll kind of work together. Was it, was that the mindset?

• 19:35Speaker 01

  We realized early on that we were, we had very different musical styles and it was hard. It was kind of my ability to put it together to, to make it sound like one thing.

• 19:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  Cause it was very disparate and, and he's always been that way. He likes country music and he likes folk music and he likes bluegrass music. I didn't know anything about that stuff and, and still don't really. I like bluegrass, but that's about it. And, and, uh, it was hard for me to match that all up. And I think truthfully, we never matched it up. We, we, we, we did variations of it.

• 20:12Billy Corgan?

  We'll get there. Cause I, I want to take a slight detour. You, you end up in a band called Gulliver.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  Well, that wasn't really a band. That was an after hours session.

• 20:22Billy Corgan?

  Uh, we got. It was never a band?

• 20:23Speaker 01

  We, no, Signet gave us free, free time. So we, we would play, we were all session musicians and we, and we, uh, uh, decided to put something together. It wasn't even really my idea. I was just there.

• 20:35Billy Corgan?

  Listening to the music, I did, it's not much of a footprint of you.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  No, I, I was not really there.

• 20:41Billy Corgan?

  You had the one single as a vocal, but like most of the records, not even you singing.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. I wasn't really there. I mean, in, in any creative way.

• 20:48Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  And, and then this guy.

• 20:50Billy Corgan?

  You know, reading it cold on a piece of paper, it's like, why did you go that direction? That's what it was.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:57Billy Corgan?

  No, I get that. Cause there were those weird records during this time where somebody would just throw around some money and be like, okay.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  That's what it was.

• 21:02Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 21:04Billy Corgan?

  Um, did you ever any interactions then with Elektra and, and Jack Holtzman?

• 21:09Speaker 01

  And I did. I, I like Jack Holtzman.

• 21:12Billy Corgan?

  He's, he's such an interesting character in the history. You know, you look at who he signed.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:17Billy Corgan?

  You know, uh, whether it's a Tim Buckley or the Doors or.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, he was.

• 21:23Billy Corgan?

  Love and.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  All that stuff, you know, I mean, he was, that was, I was, that was the best part of it is be, is, is I got to go and meet those guys. I meet him, Star, not meet those guys, meet him, um, during that period of time. That was, that was quite cool.

• 21:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I, I sort of miss the age of the impresario, right?

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I went from him to, to Ahmet. So I, I was kind of like, I was still in that bag.

• 21:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So how do you, how do you end up getting, uh? Well, I, I, I start here and maybe I'm projecting on you, but I mean, to be signed to Atlantic Records, knowing your love of, of, blues, soul, R and B. I mean, it must've blown your mind that they were interested in you.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  It was, man. It was, it was a great, that was.

• 22:08Billy Corgan?

  That's nineteen seventy?

• 22:10Speaker 01

  Seventy, no, seventy-two.

• 22:11Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  Uh, I was there, man, when, you know, in the rooms with Aretha and everything. And I mean, a reef.

• 22:19Billy Corgan?

  Did that impress you? Did that get your attention?

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Sorta.

• 22:24Billy Corgan?

  Sorta.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  But, but, but, but yet I didn't feel in awe of any of it, you know? I would meet these people and, and, uh, they were all just, you know, they were people.

• 22:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  And, and, you know, I remember Bob Dylan wandering in with this thing and just sitting there in the corner like this, you know, that kind of crazy. And, uh, it was, they were some interesting times and, uh, and I, and so there was amazing, you know, New York musicians, you know, they were.

• 22:55Billy Corgan?

  So, uh.

• 22:57Billy Corgan?

  You can give me the simple version if you want, but how is, what was Atlantic's interest in you with, oh, it's like, what did, what did, what do they see you as?

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Well, they were, you know, that was that, that was the time, excuse me, that was the time of the singer songwriter, you know, 1972, think about it, you know, and, and I, we auditioned for, for Ahmet and, and, and a brief.

• 23:24Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  And I sat there and played the piano and played those, or whatever songs we had compiled in college.

• 23:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  And, and, and a reef saw something, I don't know, whatever he saw, and he said, let's, let's go. And, and he's amazing. I mean, I loved him.

• 23:42Billy Corgan?

  I have my own brief story if you want to hear it.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Go.

• 23:45Billy Corgan?

  So, um, in the, in the mid nineties, uh, they came to me, said they want you, they wanted us to be on a charity record for, uh, Special Olympics. And they said, you know, give you, it's for Christmas. And so we'll give you some, uh, money, you can work with whoever you want to. And I said, I want to work with a reef, Mardine.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 24:04Billy Corgan?

  And I met a reef, I talked to him on the phone, but I met him for the first time in the session, suit, that old school vibe.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 24:11Billy Corgan?

  And I, this is the only time I've ever done this in my whole life. I said, you tell me what to do. You produce me. I just wanted, I'm just going to be the artist you produce. And he did this beautiful job, did the string arrangement, everything was what a pleasure. And of course I got to hear the, some of the great stories about working Bee Gees and stuff like that.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:29Billy Corgan?

  What a.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  He was a true, true gentleman.

• 24:32Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 24:33Speaker 01

  And very old school, you know?

• 24:34Billy Corgan?

  That's awesome.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, yeah, he, he was amazing. Another one who could work with anybody for you to say, do whatever you want with me. That's not usually what he liked to do. He liked to, he, he, he was so adaptive. He, he, it didn't matter what you threw at him. He knew how to deal with it.

• 24:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  You know, he, he was, uh, he would produce, well, okay.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  In succession, he produced You're So Veined, then a band in La Chinet from me. And then the next, a week later, started Average White Band and then produced, uh, uh, who was the other guy? He just died. Never mind. Anyway, but all these different, he would just go seamlessly. And then Young Gifted and Black, in the middle of it all. He could just do anything. And he was like Quincy, you know? I mean, I equate him with Quincy.

• 25:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I still am amazed I got to work with him. It stands out as one of those beautiful moments in my life.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  You were a lucky guy, man. And I was a lucky guy.

• 25:41Billy Corgan?

  I'm glad we share that because most people wouldn't know who Arif is.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  I know. He didn't get, he didn't get the publicity that like Q got and all that. But, but man, he was, he was something.

• 25:53Billy Corgan?

  So I know you said this was the time of the, of the, of singer songwriter duo was, was, did you have a different aspiration than that? Or were you sort of like, this is what people are into? I'm sort of curious.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  It was kind of what people were into. Yeah. But I was trying, to me, it was all transitional. I was always moving. I wanted to get out of that time and move.

• 26:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because I was struck listening to the, especially the first album that you guys did for Atlantic. It's a bit anodyne, very polished. And I know you like your gut bucket R and B. So I was, it sort of surprised me.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  It was, I, that was, that was sort of a student aspiration album, like trying to be something different than what you really are.

• 26:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  I think that's a typical thing that college kids do, you know, they want to expand from what they're, what they, what, you know, what they really are and what they might want to be.

• 26:44Billy Corgan?

  But at that early stage, you know, obviously your major label, it's Atlantic. I mean, it's the whole impertur of the whole thing. What was your hope for it?

• 26:54Speaker 01

  I didn't really know. I wasn't sure. I think I was too young to, to, I certainly didn't have a master plan, other than to move through it.

• 27:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I'm struck.

• 27:09Billy Corgan?

  Because vocally it would kind of go back and forth, you know, to me is not the strong, your partner, former partner is not the strongest singer as a lead singer, you know. I was surprised there wasn't more focus on you as the singer because you have, you know.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Well, I was being more passive.

• 27:27Billy Corgan?

  Trying to be team player.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, pretty much.

• 27:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  I was, I was still looking for myself. You know, I, I, I knew. I knew what I was. I knew I felt comfortable, as we talked about before, in being that person, that Philly guy in that world. But I was trying to figure out how to go outside of that and. I don't know what, realize something else, you know.

• 27:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And when you get into that bigger world, you really do feel that.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:00Billy Corgan?

  Like you go to London or something, it's like, wow, this is a whole other trip over here.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I was, I was like scrambling around mentally and creatively.

• 28:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So, uh, first album does not great. Is that, is that fair to say?

• 28:13Speaker 01

  Yes. I'm kind of glad because no, not that people know about it.

• 28:17Billy Corgan?

  No, but I mean, you know, I mean, it's nice sometimes to tell a story, knowing that the, that the end result of the toil is success, you know, so you can look at that sort of in a rosy way and say, well, it didn't work, but maybe there was a reason and maybe it's a good thing because we went this other direction.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:33Billy Corgan?

  And again, second album, uh, you know, it seems like there's still some search for something, or Reef's producing.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that, I would call that a success. People still talk about that album.

• 28:44Billy Corgan?

  Well, you had your first kind of breakout moment with.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, but beside the, the hit, you know, which wasn't a hit even then, but, but, uh, people still talk about that album as, as like, as, you know.

• 28:58Billy Corgan?

  What, what, how do they quantify it, you think?

• 29:01Speaker 01

  They, they say that they, it would be, I don't know, people get emotional about it.

• 29:05Billy Corgan?

  Head of, head of its time or.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  They just say it was, it, it, it signified a time in their life. You know, the kind of things.

• 29:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, certain records crystallize a moment.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:18Billy Corgan?

  Or a summer, you know, a way of.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  But it had, it influenced a lot of people. I mean, I, I was told, you know, to various musicians over the years.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  That it uh that it influenced them and then really inspired them, you know, all that kind of stuff. But I mean, I think that it was a good album. And and I uh I I think there was glimmers of what I was trying to do in in the in that album. I think the song "Banana Lunch" in that was is a particularly cool song.

• 29:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Uh um but again, I look at it as transitional.

• 30:00Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Was there uh because you had some traction finally with "She's Gone", obviously you're the you're the lead on that. Was there some feeling there that the the energy should kind of shift more towards you as a focus? Or was it this idea again of the?

• 30:15Speaker 01

  I think it was I think it was starting to become evident that there had to be a somebody driving the bus.

• 30:22Billy Corgan?

  How did that work internally?

• 30:25Speaker 01

  Not not really sure.

• 30:29Billy Corgan?

  I think I've got my own versions of these things.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  I I think I think what's happened in the in more recent times is a result of it.

• 30:35Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So yeah, this there's a seed there where it's like, uh, I thought we were one thing and now we're another. And and in my position, and again, you tell me what's different for you, my position, I was like, well, I'm not responsible for the way the people are reacting to what we're doing here.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 30:51Billy Corgan?

  Don't we want to lean towards where the energy is?

• 30:53Speaker 01

  I said, you if you if you can keep up, keep up. Otherwise.

• 31:00Billy Corgan?

  You're ringing bells in my head over here.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:05Billy Corgan?

  So third album, what was the vibe in Atlantic on the third album? Because because you know, the end of the story is you had guys end up getting trapped. But what was the vibe going into the third album?

• 31:12Speaker 01

  That that album was weird, I gotta say. I mean, I I, you know, objectively, it was, I mean, I I did it with Todd.

• 31:18Billy Corgan?

  Run.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, Todd Rundgren. And and when I say I did it, I pretty much did that album. That was that was the beginning when I said, okay, I'm driving the bus. But I didn't even where the bus was going. And and and and it became a very strange album.

• 31:32Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  And and

• 31:33Billy Corgan?

  Was there was there something you were trying to do?

• 31:35Speaker 01

  I I think it was I had just really settled into New York City, and I was being influenced by by the the cacophony and the the chaos.

• 31:44Billy Corgan?

  There's a bit more glam.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. And when all that stuff was going on, you know, it was that's the the period of time. And uh um and Todd, of course, Todd being pretty out there at the time. And and we uh we concocted that album and Atlantic didn't understand it, you know, I mean, the simple as that.

• 32:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  So that was, that was when I think. They, I don't know, I, I think it was really business things. I think it was my manager, Matola, that really moved me away from Atlantic. I think otherwise I might have stayed there anyway.

• 32:19Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So it wasn't so much them getting dropped. It was like, kind of like, we need to part ways.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:25Billy Corgan?

  When, when they did drop you, uh, two questions. One, uh, how did you take that? Uh, did you see it was a good thing because now you can go find somebody who's interested? Or, and then secondarily, did you think, okay, this, this partnership's not working the way that?

• 32:40Speaker 01

  I thought the part, well. You want the truth? I, I knew, I knew the partnership wasn't working around that.

• 32:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Yes. I, I knew that, I, I knew that, that we were not heading in the same direction creatively or whatever. And, and, uh, uh, but we had, we had a deal with RCA even before we left.

• 33:02Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  So there wasn't really being dropped. It was just like, okay, we'll leave here, we go there. It was, there was, there was no period where we were like, uh, we weren't homeless, you know?

• 33:11Billy Corgan?

  Did you have a moment where you thought, okay, I need to go by on my own here or kind of put together my own thing or?

• 33:16Speaker 01

  I think I was.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Uh, I, I, I think that maybe I, I, I felt like I need, I agree that maybe it was a time to try a fresh place.

• 33:28Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:29Billy Corgan?

  Right. So I, I'm just, cause I'm, I'm still confused. So did you have a feeling that you should go solo there? Or did you, do you think, okay, well, we got the deal. It ain't broke. Don't fix it. Keep going and just keep moving forward. Kind of like you said, my focus was just on always movement.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  I can't remember when I finally decided.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Uh, it was around that time, actually. I'm really thinking about it. I met Robert Fripp. And, uh, and we were, and it was around 1974. Yeah, it was, it was, it was then. And, and, uh, and Robert and I became friends and that was the first time that I, I started feeling a, a, a spark of, of kindred spirit creativity that I wanted to move and move away.

• 34:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  And work with somebody different, completely different. And, and so eventually I wound up working with Robert. And that got, and those plans got scotched for various other reasons, you know?

• 34:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So, okay, you're on RCA now. Um, obviously it was a different record business then, but did you feel any particular pressure? Because now you're in a new situation and I have to kind of prove something.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  I,

• 34:50Speaker 01

  I never was a person who felt particular pressure. I just felt like I'm doing it and, and let, let the chips, let the chips fall.

• 34:58Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  You know, and I got, I won't say I got lucky or whatever it was, but I wrote Sarah Smile and, and, and that.

• 35:05Billy Corgan?

  We're jumping ahead on my story.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  No, but that was the first, that was the first song on RCA.

• 35:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. But you know, there were two singles before that.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  They were.

• 35:15Billy Corgan?

  So again, cause I'm, I'm so.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  You, you remember things I forgot.

• 35:19Billy Corgan?

  Well, trust me, I, I mean, I've, you know, I spent three hours this morning doing a deep dive on your, on your life.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  I don't even remember which one the first singles were.

• 35:27Billy Corgan?

  Okay. I got it right here.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Tell me.

• 35:29Billy Corgan?

  Uh, is it spell, uh, is Karma, Carmelia?

• 35:33Speaker 01

  Camellia.

• 35:33Billy Corgan?

  Camellia, sorry.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  That was.

• 35:35Billy Corgan?

  That was, that was the first thing.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  That was an old song.

• 35:37Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Second single, Alone Too Long.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  An old song. They ran with John Oates twice and then they decided to go with Darryl.

• 35:46Billy Corgan?

  Okay, which is what I'm saying. I mean, we know how the story ends like this, which is why it's funny, right?

• 35:54Billy Corgan?

  And again, not casting shade, it's just the music business is horish about selling records. It hasn't changed. It's just digital numbers now, but a point is you're standing there in your prime. You've already had a charting single, the only charting single the duo has ever had. You're in a new situation and they start the new situation with two songs by the other guy.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:16Billy Corgan?

  Very interesting.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  Very interesting.

• 36:18Billy Corgan?

  Were there political forces at play?

• 36:20Speaker 01

  I haven't a clue. I never, truthfully, I never thought about it.

• 36:24Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  But now I'm realizing, I don't, you know, it's, I can't put myself back in that place. But you know what happened is that an R and B station in, I won't say Akron, but it was, it was someplace.

• 36:41Billy Corgan?

  Somewhere over there.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  I'll say Akron, it wasn't Akron, started playing Sarah Smile.

• 36:46Billy Corgan?

  Oh, so it was one of those things like an organic.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  And it became an R and B hit.

• 36:49Billy Corgan?

  So they didn't even release it as a single.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  RCA, RCA didn't even, they weren't even paying any attention to it. And the local promotion guy that worked the R and B stations said, you know, people are playing this song in the Midwest. They're just going and it's kind of breaking out of Ohio and RCA went, oh, okay. Well, we will try this.

• 37:07Billy Corgan?

  I mean, it's a stone cold classic.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  And then they put it on pop radio and it worked, but it started on R and B radio.

• 37:14Billy Corgan?

  Number four nationally.

• 37:17Billy Corgan?

  And then, uh, well, we'll save that for part two of our interview.

• 37:25Billy Corgan?

  But what's funny about that is, you know, that's, you know, so while you're having that moment in your life, I'm in a cold basement in Chicago, listening to you. You know what I mean? So it's kind of a funny thing.

• 37:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I think that's part one. So you gotta stay tuned for part two.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  All right.

• 37:40Billy Corgan?

  Where we get to all the really good stuff.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Oh, haha, I wonder what that's gonna be.