Sharon Osbourne | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan sits down with the iconic Sharon Osbourne—manager extraordinaire, TV personality, and the formidable force behind Ozzy Osbourne’s enduring career. Sharon opens up about her incredible life in show business, starting with childhood memories of her father, notorious music impresario Don Arden, and all the mischief and magic that came with growing up around rock legends like Gene Vincent, Little Richard, and the Small Faces. Billy and Sharon also dive deep into the early days of Black Sabbath: from Ozzy’s first London gigs and sweaty club shows to the challenges and triumphs that reshaped heavy metal forever. From the business battles that tested Sharon’s mettle, to the behind-the-scenes stories of how she helped Ozzy break away from an impossible contract to forge one of the most successful solo careers in rock, they cover near-disasters and triumphant comebacks, all fueled by Sharon’s fearless determination and her unwavering belief in the power of music. Watch The Magnificent Others on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  I'm not happy at the way the industry's run.

• 0:34Billy Corgan?

  Okay. I love this part.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Never said this to anyone. He got offered to go and read for...

• 0:45Billy Corgan?

  And you said no?

• 0:46Speaker 01

  I said no.

• 0:46Billy Corgan?

  What's your sort of first impression? Did you have an impression of him, the band? Just put me in the room a little bit.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  Well, it was packed. It was sweaty. When it started out, I'm like, what the hell is this? I can remember my best friend, who is an agent, said to me, "You can't let this go out. This is disgraceful. You cannot. You've got to stop it." And I'm like, oops, too late.

• 1:10Billy Corgan?

  Too late.

• 1:13Billy Corgan?

  So, I've read a lot of biographies about musicians that were born in a post-war Britain. This kind of, you know, there were still bomb sites and kids playing and homes that had been, you know, ripped out of the ground and stuff like that. Do you have memories like that? Is that... I guess I'm asking a fair question about what you remember about post-war Britain.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. In fact, the house where I grew up, we moved from there. So, from 1 to 12, I lived in a house that right behind was still bomb sites. Even when I left at 12, there were still bomb sites.

• 1:53Billy Corgan?

  And what did people tell you? Here in America, it was always the Great Depression. That's what you always heard about. You heard about World War II, but World War II didn't happen here.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:04Billy Corgan?

  It was about grandpa went overseas and then we didn't want to talk about what he saw, that type of stuff. But of course, Europe lived in the sight of the war. So what did that feel like and what did people tell you about the war?

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Everything was related to the war. There were even, I can remember as a child, there were gas masks hanging as you came into our house where you'd hang your coat, there were gas masks hanging.

• 2:29Billy Corgan?

  Still?

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there were air raid shelters at the bottom of our garden.

• 2:35Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:37Billy Corgan?

  Did that leave an impression on you in any way? I'm just curious.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, because we all, I mean, we all played on the bomb sites. It was right at the back of our house. There was a whole street that had gone.

• 2:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  And all the kids in the area, you know, it was the time where you did play in the streets.

• 2:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  And we would always be there and too with my husband, he, he too played on bomb sites.

• 3:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  And it was just very much a part of our, of our lives. It was, it was, um, oh, you killed Jesus, you started World War II.

• 3:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  Cause being a Jew, it was like, you very much got.

• 3:21Billy Corgan?

  Ah, I never thought about it that way.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:24Billy Corgan?

  When I was a kid, I heard the, you know, if you, we didn't have as many Jewish classmates in where I grew up. But you know, the one kid that was, that said, you killed Jesus.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 3:33Billy Corgan?

  We know we even knew what it meant.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  No, but you used to see it.

• 3:36Billy Corgan?

  Heard it, yeah.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  And I used to hear it and go, this guy, Jesus.

• 3:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 3:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah, because I was thinking about it and knowing I was gonna talk to you. Because obviously with Sabbath and Ozzy's music, you do feel that.

• 3:55Billy Corgan?

  Growing up in the horror of war. I mean, War Pigs is one of the great anti-war songs of all time. You know, it's in the lyric. And even, you know, the American and UK fascination with comic books and this idea of self-empowerment, superheroes, and fighting the Nazis and all this type of stuff, Captain America. But I thought, you know, it didn't strike me that it was part of your story that I know about, but I thought it must have affected you, and it certainly affected your family.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  Very much. And there was this guy called Mosley, and he was a sir, and he was a Nazi. And after the war, he was still hanging around in England.

• 4:40Billy Corgan?

  Oh, wow. Was he a British subject?

• 4:43Speaker 01

  British, yeah. Very, very well-spoken. Used to hang out with the royal family. One of his bestest friends in the world was the king that abdicated.

• 4:54Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  And they ended up living near each other in France. So they were always buddy-buddies. And he was a huge Nazi and used to give rallies everywhere in England. And my dad used to go and... There would be fights all the time because the Jewish people would go.

• 5:17Billy Corgan?

  This is pre-war?

• 5:19Speaker 01

  After.

• 5:19Billy Corgan?

  After, too?

• 5:20Speaker 01

  After, yeah.

• 5:21Billy Corgan?

  Wow, I don't know how anybody could defend that "after," but...

• 5:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Beat time.

• 5:26Billy Corgan?

  This always reminds me of that famous Monty Python skit where Hitler is Hilter. It's John Cleese, and he's like, he's running for local council. You know, there's that funny... Anyway, sorry.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  They're the best. I mean, the funniest.

• 5:44Billy Corgan?

  I want to talk about your dad, but there's not a ton of information about your mother. And, you know, again, we're in this world of information. There's so much information readily available, but if you want to dig deeper, it just goes into nothing.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:57Billy Corgan?

  And so I found some pictures of your mother in sort of ballerina costumes and her being a ballerina, and even some insinuation that you, too, wanted to be a ballerina.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  I did, yeah.

• 6:06Billy Corgan?

  But tell me, like... Was your, was your mother like a vaudevillian, as what we would say here?

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely, and her mother was a choreographer.

• 6:15Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  And my mom was a dancer, so she would be in my, um, grandmothers would get troops of girls and put them out on different.

• 6:24Billy Corgan?

  Circuits?

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Circuits.

• 6:25Billy Corgan?

  Ah, yeah.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  And, um, so my mom was a dancer, her mother was a choreographer dancer. And, um, my mom married a musical conductor.

• 6:38Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  And he was very well known, apparently. And the marriage didn't last, she had a son and a daughter.

• 6:46Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  With her first husband. Divorced, and in those times, nobody would get divorced. You were like, oh.

• 6:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  You know, she must be a bad woman. And she met my father, who at this time was a singer.

• 7:01Billy Corgan?

  Right. I have heard recordings of your father, I went out of my way. I never knew he sang, I mean, I certainly know his, uh, legacy in music, but, um, not a bad voice.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, he had a good voice, and he, um, what did you hear, Sunrise Sunset?

• 7:16Billy Corgan?

  Heard that, I tried to find him, there was some insinuation that he kinda did like an Elvis imitation record, but I couldn't find that.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 7:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  No, he was very much, um.

• 7:26Billy Corgan?

  Like a crooner?

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:28Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so, they married, after six weeks, they got married.

• 7:32Billy Corgan?

  Right, so it was kind of a love at first sight type of thing? So, I'd rather ask you than sort of poke around with what I read, but tell me about your father's pre-war life, cause there's some sense that he too was a bit of a vaudevillian comic.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  He was.

• 7:49Billy Corgan?

  Acting, can you, can you illustrate that a little bit?

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Okay, before, he wanted to be a cantor, and he was brought up very religious, very religious Jew. And, um.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  He trained, did all the training and then just decided, no, I wanna be an entertainer.

• 8:10Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  And so he used to do impressions and sing.

• 8:17Billy Corgan?

  Right. The things I saw is that he did impressions of like Al Jolson.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Yes, he did.

• 8:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  He did, yeah.

• 8:25Billy Corgan?

  Did you think, it's hard because obviously his legacy in music as a manager is what people talk about. But did you think he had talent himself as a performer?

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, he did. And I can remember, like, as a baby, baby, after the war,

• 8:45Speaker 01

  my father would put packages together and he would go and entertain the troops, the American troops, all over the world. And so my brother and I would go and we'd watch him. I mean, we were always together traveling. And yeah, I grew up in a lot of American bases all over Europe.

• 9:08Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know that about you.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:10Billy Corgan?

  So, I don't wanna make assumptions, but he changed his name, Harry.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  He was Herschel Levy, Harry Levy.

• 9:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  And he couldn't get any work. And so he changed it to Arden.

• 9:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. That's such a painful thing, you know, when I think back.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:29Billy Corgan?

  That people had to change their name.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  You have to deny what you are.

• 9:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:35Billy Corgan?

  So, you're born basically into show business. Did you feel that? Does that, or, cuz I, you know, I think, you know, my father was a musician. I just remember being a kid, like, there were always people around. You know, people in the house, people in the basement getting stoned. It was just part of my life. It was normal to me. But looking back, I realize why to other kids in the neighborhood, it was very exotic. Did you, did you feel that way too?

• 9:59Speaker 01

  The same thing, Billy. It was like, we didn't have birthday parties for us and things like that in the house. Cuz it was a house where work was going on all the time.

• 10:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  So it was an intrusion. And we fitted in and we knew how to behave, but there weren't kids coming in and out of our house, never. And the same thing, musicians coming in and out and other agents and this and that.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  You know.

• 10:29Billy Corgan?

  So what was your sense of it then? And I guess what I'm saying is like, what was your sense of the music business then? Because if you had gone on to be, say, an actor, it would be relevant in a way, but you end up becoming into that same world.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, we didn't mix with anybody unless they were in the industry.

• 10:50Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  That's the way it was.

• 10:52Billy Corgan?

  Was it because, because it was the people you choose to associate with? Or there was, and I know back, and I was talking about the seventies, people treated anybody in the music business as less than. There was a feeling that, you know, my father was doing something untoward by being a musician.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, get a proper job.

• 11:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that was always, my father complained his whole life that my, my step-grandmother had once told him, "When are you gonna get a real job?"

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 11:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  And other people, yes, would think, "Oh, they're, they're odd, you know, a bit extreme, don't wanna mix with them." But we always kept within what my mother and father were doing.

• 11:33Billy Corgan?

  Where do you think your father's love of the business came from?

• 11:38Speaker 01

  He loved music. He just loved music. And that was his whole life, and he could read and write music.

• 11:48Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  And it's very rare for when he did become a manager, for the manager to read and write music.

• 11:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  And the musicians that were coming up then, not many of them could.

• 12:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  And my father could talk in technical terms to other musicians.

• 12:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because the stories are legion about your father's kind of way of doing business. But then, in the same breath, there was like Kenny Jones or something talking about, he was so charismatic.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Very charismatic. He, because being an entertainer, he carried that with him all the time, and he was very dramatic. And when he would walk in a room, you'd notice this

• 12:30Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  because of the presence that he exuded, and he, he was very, very charismatic.

• 12:36Billy Corgan?

  Was, was Gene Vincent like his first kind of really big act that he managed? Would you point to somebody before that?

• 12:41Speaker 01

  No, it was Gene. It was Gene.

• 12:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because, um...

• 12:47Billy Corgan?

  I remember seeing David Bowie perform, actually on his last tour. I don't, I think David knew then he was sick.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:55Billy Corgan?

  And did this kind of last tour, but he didn't tell anybody until later. But I remember he, and he was very chatty in a way that he was usually wasn't on a stage. And he told a story very deliberately about how seeing Gene Vincent perform around the time your father would have been managing him, basically in his mind created the Ziggy Stardust character. And that the way Ziggy stood on stage was a complete emulation because Gene Vincent had this weird motorcycle accident.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:22Billy Corgan?

  He tells this whole story on stage.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  I never have heard that story.

• 13:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, isn't that cool?

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:28Billy Corgan?

  Because that goes right back to your father's.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  He had a bolt between the knee,

• 13:35Speaker 01

  either side of his leg, and it went under his.

• 13:37Billy Corgan?

  Like a booted brace or something?

• 13:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was two metal rods. I mean, it was really bad. And he, he'd been, he was really the first rock star that came up. He was, he was unbelievable.

• 13:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, so.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  The first guy I ever saw wear black leather.

• 13:59Billy Corgan?

  Shades of Things to Come, right? So you're, I think, 8'10", around this time. So what's your impression of that world at this point? I mean, you're old enough to know, okay, this is dad's business. These are people, like, what's your impression? Because I always like to ask people like how they felt in the time. Because obviously we know Gene Vincent is a legend. Rock and roll has a lot of debt to Gene Vincent and Elvis and these great pioneers. But at the time, you're just a little girl and there's Gene Vincent like at the office or.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:30Billy Corgan?

  You know, what was your thought about somebody like that? Did you, did you see him as, as having a different type of charisma? Or did it strike you, I guess, is what I'm trying to say?

• 14:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, because he had a very strong accent. He had a very strong American accent.

• 14:43Billy Corgan?

  Was it like a Brooklyn or I don't, I don't know his?

• 14:46Speaker 01

  No, it was like, he, he would like slide his words. And with the boos too, he had a very slurry accent. Slow, he would speak very slowly.

• 15:00Billy Corgan?

  So in growing up in this musical family, who were some of the musi, who were some of the musicians or artists that you liked? Even if they weren't managed by your father, like.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Oh, it was all the people that my dad, I mean, I got to see.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Amazing, incredible artists as a child. And knowing they were special, but then as time gone by, how special.

• 15:26Billy Corgan?

  Ah, I see.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Real.

• 15:28Billy Corgan?

  Can you name some names? I'm just curious.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  Jerry Lee Lewis. James Brown in the early days, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, who was... I always kept in touch with him.

• 15:40Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Always kept.

• 15:42Billy Corgan?

  Did he always know that you guys knew each other all those years?

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, met Ozzy and the whole thing, yeah.

• 15:47Billy Corgan?

  That's so cool.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Everly Brothers, adored them.

• 15:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Brenda Lee, my dad managed Brenda Lee for a while. Stayed in touch with her.

• 15:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I just read Graham Nash's book and he talked about standing on the stairs outside of some English hotel where he got to meet the Everly Brothers. And how that changed the course of his life, just for them to listen to him and give him that two minutes of like.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:13Billy Corgan?

  You know, it's such an interesting thing because.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  It's, sorry for interrupting.

• 16:17Billy Corgan?

  No, no, I want, I'm here to hear from you, not from me.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Sam Cooke.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  He was the one that stood out for me.

• 16:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  I adored watching him perform.

• 16:29Billy Corgan?

  So was your dad promoting and managing?

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:31Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so that makes sense. So that's why you're seeing these great artists that are coming over.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  He would put these packages together and they were just, I look now at some of the old programs that I have and I'm like, oh my God, all these artists.

• 16:45Billy Corgan?

  See, daddy really had a sense of like, he felt what was going on and he saw it. Did he like rock and roll?

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Loved it.

• 16:52Billy Corgan?

  Oh, interesting.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:54Billy Corgan?

  Because not a lot of guys who grew up liking what he liked.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:57Billy Corgan?

  In that generation, made that transition, you know. Frank Sinatra famously was criticizing the Beatles and.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. He, he embraced it.

• 17:10Billy Corgan?

  I came very late to appreciate how good the Small Faces were. Did you, did you?

• 17:16Speaker 01

  I went to school with Stevie Marriott.

• 17:19Billy Corgan?

  Okay, because I want to ask you about Steve, so. So, but I mean, at the time, did you, I know they, they were sort of a, in a way, like a teen sensation, but they had musical credibility.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  They did, they did.

• 17:29Billy Corgan?

  And my big harp, and I'm, I'm kind of embarrassed to admit it now. I think they might be one of the most influential bands ever. But somehow in America, because when they caught on, it was kind of later. Thirty Days in the Hole, like grittier rock. But when you go back and listen to the whole thing, especially with Steve and Small Faces, and you realize like, how many people ripped him off, including Led Zeppelin, and it's unbelievable.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  His voice was incredible, just incredible. I was sent to a stage school. And so the school-

• 18:03Billy Corgan?

  Like a performing arts type of thing?

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:05Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  So you learned all the performing arts and of course-

• 18:09Billy Corgan?

  Is this, you trying to be a dancer at this point, or?

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Um, anything, because it was like my father said, unless you can entertain, you'll never earn a living. So, um, Stevie was at the school. And he was in a production of Oliver in London.

• 18:27Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  And he played the Artful Dodger.

• 18:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, right.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  And, I mean, that voice of his was just incredible. And he was tiny, tiny little-

• 18:39Billy Corgan?

  I think he's tinier than you, right?

• 18:40Speaker 01

  And he was like real bousy, bousy, ballsy, like would argue with anyone.

• 18:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah. See, I think it's interesting, because like I said, now we can sit here and talk, and we can say, this person's a legend, and this person's in the Rock and Hall of Fame. But at the time, the business was a fraction of the size it is now.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  It was still a business. It was still the music business instead of the music industry.

• 19:09Billy Corgan?

  Ah, I see. That's an interesting point. So, I saw something, and, and before I say it, I know that Brian Epstein did it, but there's something about your dad, chart fixing, and there was some controversy about him with Small Faces and chart fixing.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and pay for play on the radio.

• 19:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but they would go, and they'd go in the store and buy like a bunch of singles to try to-

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, to get it up in the charts, yeah. We would all go out on a Saturday and, you know, pocket full of cash, and go to every record shop and buy two, three-

• 19:39Billy Corgan?

  That was kind of standard procedure back then.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 19:42Billy Corgan?

  When the Small Faces kind of started to take off, did that sort of change your father's fortune and that now other artists wanted to work with him?

• 19:51Speaker 01

  The, we-

• 19:52Billy Corgan?

  Sorry, were they the first kind of young contemporary band that he had association with?

• 19:56Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah. That were English too.

• 19:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  And, um, but we were always had money or completely broke.

• 20:08Billy Corgan?

  So it was Burma bust, yeah.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  That's the way it was. So I was always used to adapting. You just adapt, you know, oh, we've got no phone in the house because it's been cut off. We didn't pay the bill, no lights, we didn't pay the bill, or water.

• 20:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Just, okay.

• 20:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I saw a story, I think it was in Peter Frampton's book, where he was talking about, he'd had the band The Herd.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:36Billy Corgan?

  And I think your father had managed him. I don't remember the exact story, but it was something along the lines of like, somebody came up and was asking Peter about working with your father. And Peter said something in kind about your father. And a few days later, a couple guys showed up.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:53Billy Corgan?

  Peter stepped outside a club and said, "We're going to talk to Don." Like, you get in the car, took him to the car, he walks in and there's your dad behind the desk and says, "Take my name out of your mouth." I'm not trying to say it as some sort of sign of his character. It's more of like, I know that that business back then was very rough and tumble.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  There were no laws. There were no laws. It was, you know, they were pioneers. So lawyers, this, the other, forget it.

• 21:27Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  Sign here, sign now.

• 21:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, or get out.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Oh, there's two more waiting to come in.

• 21:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because my daddy, when he had some opportunities in Chicago in the late 60s, he told me later that the reason he didn't sign because of this implication that you were signing in with the mob people. I'm not saying that's your father's experience, but there was that feeling that there were other forces at play and you had to be careful where you stepped. And I think at least it's important pointing it out. Because like you said, now it would be about lawyers and magistrates and who says what with the laws in California. Back then it was mild west.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Nothing, nothing at all.

• 22:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  And, you know, everybody knew it was quick money, very quick, like gambling.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  And so, everybody wanted a piece. And the mob was very much involved in America.

• 22:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  In those days.

• 22:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  They just were. And my dad had some connections and some with these guys called the Crays.

• 22:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  That ended up in England going. Cause they had clubs and they would want stars to come and perform in their clubs. And so, my father knew them and.

• 22:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's like when you see those old interviews where they're kind of, they're poking around with Frank Sinatra about whether he has any mob ties. Well, the real answer is you couldn't play a club in those days without some organized crime connection because that's how they laundered their money and that's.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  And Vegas.

• 22:55Billy Corgan?

  Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying. There's a, I'm saying is there's another side to that story.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 23:00Billy Corgan?

  There's no, there was no way to play in that sandbox without having to rub elbows with somebody up to something.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Right. And it would get very much, you know, when artists would come, especially to New York on the East Coast, wherever they were, they were involved.

• 23:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  They owned the buildings, the theaters.

• 23:21Billy Corgan?

  And the guy putting the chair on the stage. And if you didn't pay something, something.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 23:27Billy Corgan?

  So, this is my understanding of the acts that your dad did manage. But maybe this is the wrong list, but Jerry Lee Lewis, some of the names you had, Little Richard, Gene Vincent, Air Supply, The Move, Black Sabbath, ELO. Anybody else that I'm missing on that list? It's a pretty good, pretty decent list of, of success.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:45Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  The Nashville Teens, The Animals.

• 23:48Billy Corgan?

  Oh, that's right.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:49Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know about The Animals.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh. Yeah, now there's a guy with a great voice.

• 23:55Billy Corgan?

  Well, there's the famous story of the day they recorded House of the Rising Sun. It was on like a houseboat. They went in on this houseboat and recorded it in like a couple hours and then drove up the road to a gig. Didn't think anything of it. It's magical times in those ways.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:10Billy Corgan?

  Now we make albums forever and Pro Tools.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  And we need to fly here and we need this guy in to do another mix.

• 24:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 24:17Speaker 01

  It's the purity has kind of gone.

• 24:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that's why I love talking to you about it because you were actually there and you saw it happen. Not a lot of people really saw the way that business ran at that time. It makes, in many ways for me as a fan, it makes those times even more magical because you realize it really was trying to find lightning in a bottle.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:38Billy Corgan?

  And talent really was the great delineating force. So when you look at a small faces, you know, when you listen to that voice, that's not him doing 18 takes. That's him stepping up to a microphone in many ways live.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Oh, we've got four hours tonight, so can we finish?

• 24:56Billy Corgan?

  Unbelievable. It gives me chills to think about because it's, if you love rock and roll, we love rock and roll. It's humbling, you know, and of course, your husband, one of the great singers of all time. It's like it was there from the beginning. He found it or he had it.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:13Billy Corgan?

  It's not like somebody said, well, you know, Oz, can you?

• 25:15Speaker 01

  If you, if you move this way and if you dress this way and if we get this choreographer in, you know, you'll be, kids will love it. It just came from within. It was for all of those artists.

• 25:28Billy Corgan?

  I always laugh because there's that, there's that concert film of Sabbath playing Paris like 1970.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:33Billy Corgan?

  And Ozzy's wearing like a members only jacket. It's so like, they're playing all these doom songs and Ozzy's in his members only jacket.

• 25:42Billy Corgan?

  So it's two questions, but take them any way you want. It's, it's what did you want to be or become? And, and did your father want you in his business? So how does that work as a teenager? Like, how are you, if you're, if, I don't know, pick your age, 12 to 13, you're looking forward.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  I wanted to be a dancer, but I, I knew I didn't have the dedication that it takes to do ballet. Cause it's, it's like being a gymnast.

• 26:10Billy Corgan?

  It's like six hours a day type of thing, right?

• 26:13Speaker 01

  And I, I didn't have that. I wanted to have fun.

• 26:19Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 26:20Speaker 01

  And you can't do that if you're...

• 26:23Billy Corgan?

  So what's fun for you at age thirteen, fourteen?

• 26:26Speaker 01

  Just, I went to all the gigs I could. All the TV shows where there was music on. There was this show in England called Top of the Pops.

• 26:35Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  And so everything that was in the top twenty, they would play. And certain artists would come in and perform live.

• 26:42Billy Corgan?

  She used to go to see the live Top of the Pops shows?

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then my greatest joy was I got to host it once. And it was my greatest joy.

• 26:51Billy Corgan?

  How old were you when this happened?

• 26:53Speaker 01

  And I couldn't tell anybody there because they would think,

• 26:56Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I see.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  You know, I've been watching it since I was this big.

• 26:59Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 27:00Speaker 01

  But, um...

• 27:01Billy Corgan?

  How old were you when this happened?

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Oh, God, this happened, I must have done that in, uh,

• 27:10Speaker 01

  twenty oh one. So twenty-three years ago.

• 27:14Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:15Billy Corgan?

  I was thinking it was back then. Oh, oh, oh. Oh, I see. I see why you're...

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Loved it. Yeah.

• 27:21Billy Corgan?

  So, when's the first time you saw Ozzy in real life?

• 27:28Speaker 01

  I saw Ozzy at eighteen. And they played a club in London called The Marquis.

• 27:36Billy Corgan?

  So that would have been, what, nineteen seventy-eight?

• 27:40Speaker 01

  No, seventy-six.

• 27:41Billy Corgan?

  Seventy-six, okay.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  And, no, why am I saying that? No.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Seventy-seventy-one.

• 27:50Billy Corgan?

  Oh, that early, okay.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  That early.

• 27:52Billy Corgan?

  Okay, right. That's what I was trying to understand.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there was all the talk in the office. Because I worked for my father then. I left school at fifteen. You could leave school at fifteen in England then.

• 28:04Billy Corgan?

  What do you do in the office at this point?

• 28:05Speaker 01

  I am the receptionist. I am learning the business and I was a receptionist.

• 28:10Billy Corgan?

  How are you as a receptionist?

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Terrible. And, uh, terrible because I used to answer the phone. And I would answer the phone with different accents on. Because I'd get bored. And I'd done all the accents at drama school. So I would be American, I'd be all of this. So I just used to play. But, um...

• 28:35Speaker 01

  There was all this talk in the office that there was this band called Black Sabbath that had a stupid manager from Birmingham. And their album had just come out and there was all of this talk about this album. Nobody's heard music like this before. And it was, you know, a small business, so everybody was talking. And they were coming to play in London at the Marquee Club. And every manager in London was there, trying to steal the band.

• 29:07Billy Corgan?

  So you were at this gig where this is this kind of moment?

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, okay.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:12Billy Corgan?

  So what's your, I mean, obviously you had a lot of time to live with your husband since then. But like, what's your sort of first impression? Did you have an impression of him, the band? Just take, put me in the room a little bit.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Well, it was packed, it was sweaty, it was a small club. And it, when it started out, I'm like, what the hell is this? Because I'd been used to American artists always.

• 29:38Billy Corgan?

  Ah, I see.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  Or the faces, you know, and they were like jolly and happy and I'm like, what the hell is this? What's going on? And the walls were all dripping with sweat and, you know, I, I, I was like, what is this? I couldn't quite make it out.

• 29:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  But you knew it was special, the vibe in the room and watching everybody's face.

• 30:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, there are those moments in our life musically where you see or hear something and you know something's happening, but you haven't figured it out yet. So it's that odd feeling of like,

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:12Billy Corgan?

  I'm behind something, but why am I behind?

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:16Billy Corgan?

  I shouldn't like this, but I do, but I don't, but, yeah.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  It was very odd. And so the next day, they were due to come to see my father. So my father sent his chauffeur, who was...

• 30:35Speaker 01

  A very interesting person. And he was also his bodyguard.

• 30:40Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  And he was involved with the craze.

• 30:44Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  And he had a checkered past, you could say, this gentleman.

• 30:51Billy Corgan?

  It sounds better with your English accent.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  So he went to their hotel, picked them up, and brought them to my father's office, the first time they'd ever been in a Rolls Royce. And my father was, he knew how to put it on, you know, impressed.

• 31:07Billy Corgan?

  I got you.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  So they came to our offices, which were in Mayfair in London. And I, they come in, they sit in reception.

• 31:18Billy Corgan?

  And there you are.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  There am I. And they're all sat on the floor. And they wouldn't sit in seats, they had to sit on the floor. And I'm like, what the is going on here? And I'm just taking my calls, you know, trying not to have eye contact with anyone. And then I showed them into my father's office. And then this gentleman, his name was Wilf, who was my father's bodyguard and chauffeur, was to drive them back to the station where they were going home to Birmingham. And he didn't. He took them to a pub.

• 31:57Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  And one of the guys who worked for my father, in fact, he used to be Gene Vincent's tour manager for my father when Ritchie Blackmore was in the Back Up Band.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Um, the Blue Caps, they were called.

• 32:13Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Um, he joined the meeting. He, he, he used to tour manager for my father, but he was working every day in the office, this guy. And so he met Wilf.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  They sat down with Sabbath. Sabbath told them they were terrified of my father. And Wilf and this guy Patrick said, yes, and he'll steal all your money. You don't want to go with him. He will beat you up. He'll do whatever, whatever, whatever. And they were terrified of him anyway because they'd heard stories. And that Friday, Patrick and Wilf left. And they took Black Sabbath. Well, they didn't take them because we never had them, but.

• 33:03Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I get you. I get you.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:06Billy Corgan?

  Ah, so to the romantic side of the equation, you're looking at your future husband. You don't know he's your future husband. Do you have any, any stars in your eyes? Did you feel any?

• 33:17Speaker 01

  I, at that point, I was honestly, I was so like, oh, God, I can't look at them. I'm embarrassed. I'm like insecure.

• 33:25Billy Corgan?

  They were kind of motley back then.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, they were. And I was like, oh, I'm embarrassed to look at them. I was used to people coming in smartly dressed, smelling great.

• 33:35Billy Corgan?

  Carnaby Street vibe.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 33:36Billy Corgan?

  Very sophisticated London.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  And not, not them.

• 33:41Billy Corgan?

  Tony Iommi, because I got to work with him once on something. He was telling me about when they would come down from Birmingham to London, they would feel like aliens.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:51Billy Corgan?

  And the press would treat them poorly and they couldn't wait to go home because London to them was this alien place.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  Really strange for them. And when they first went to America, it was even worse. Can you imagine them in New York? They were scared to leave the hotel.

• 34:10Billy Corgan?

  Well, so, so at that point, there's no like.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Nothing, nothing.

• 34:15Billy Corgan?

  Do you remember talking to Ozzy back then or?

• 34:17Speaker 01

  No.

• 34:18Billy Corgan?

  I'm just curious.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  No.

• 34:19Billy Corgan?

  It's the romantic side of me.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  It's, we had nothing but Wilf and Patrick who left, who took Sabbath. And of course, you know, huge, huge record sales, huge tours. I. Spoke to Patrick. I had a friendship with him. He'd worked for my dad forever. He was always very nice to me. Not with Wolf, I didn't have a friendship. He was frightened me. But with Patrick, I did. And so I used to go to a few gigs. My dad didn't know.

• 34:54Billy Corgan?

  OK.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  And then I got to meet Ozzy. I'd take girlfriends and we'd go and see his show when they were in London.

• 35:01Billy Corgan?

  So then you got to know him a little bit socially.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  Yes, so then, over time, I got to know them. And Tony.

• 35:06Billy Corgan?

  OK.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  And then Tony would come into town, into LA. When I moved to LA, he would call, we'd go hang, and that sort of thing.

• 35:15Billy Corgan?

  Just very, nothing special, just other warm, nice.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:19Billy Corgan?

  How you doing? So, take me a little bit through, how did they eventually end up with your dad?

• 35:27Speaker 01

  In early seventy-nine, Tony was in LA. And he said, "Everything we thought your dad would do, they did to us. They stole, they took everything." The guys would say, "Come, we have four houses." They, listen to this, they did, they would do, you know, a three-month tour of America. They would get one thousand pounds in a cheque each for the tour.

• 35:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  But they would think that was a huge amount of money. They were happy with it.

• 36:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  And then they'd say, "Do you think we have enough to ever buy a house?" And Patrick would say, "Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, go buy a house. We'll take care of everything for you." And they would buy houses. They weren't big estates, they were houses. You know, regular houses. And they bought them. But they weren't in their names, they were in Patrick's name. Even the cars that they drove.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  His, Patrick's name was on the pink slip. So when, when it all went up in the air, they came.

• 36:40Billy Corgan?

  So, I know the story's oft told, but just simply walk me through, you know, at some point you're, you fall in love and now you're managing, you know, he gets booted out of the band.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  That year, it was that year that Tony called and said, would you, would you talk to your dad? Would he take us back, yada, yada? And of course, my father's revenge was, of course I will.

• 37:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  And, um, they came back.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  They would, you know, they'd always complain about each other. It's a band, you know what it's like in a band.

• 37:17Billy Corgan?

  Every band complains about everybody all the time.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  All the.

• 37:21Billy Corgan?

  Hate to blow the mystery, but.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  That's the way it is.

• 37:24Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  And they were always all about Ozzy and this and the other and Ozzy this.

• 37:29Billy Corgan?

  Can I stop you there? Because I'm such a fan and, and you were there and the sense was they, somehow they turned on him, but I, I've never really understood why they turned on him the way they did. It was, was, you know, generally it seems to be couched in, he was getting too crazy or something. But was it, you know, the most striking thing to me is, because I've seen this footage where it's like suddenly, and I know they did it different times, but like Ozzy singing on the side in front of the speakers and Tony's in the middle.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  Tony had him moved to the side so Tony could be in the middle.

• 38:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  And I think the long and short of it, really, um, we all know Ozzy was never a good drinker. He was always the first to be on the floor. I mean, the worst drinker in the world and drug taker. The others could maintain some semblance of, we're okay.

• 38:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  But Ozzy was always, you know, on the floor. And I honestly think because Ozzy didn't play an instrument.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  That his value in their eyes was this big. You just sing, you just sing, all you do is sing. So I honestly think, and it's something I've tried to sort out. But my thing is, is that they were envious because Ozzy got attention. Which every lead singer does, it comes with the gig. And they weren't getting the notoriety that he was. And they thought, you don't do anything, you're drunk all the time. And why do you get all this notoriety?

• 39:08Billy Corgan?

  Sure, sure.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  And I think that had an awful lot to do with it.

• 39:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  And they were kids.

• 39:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that's.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Kids.

• 39:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, obviously those bridges have been repaired and, you know, mended long ago. But it's funny too, because even as a fan, and I was listening to Sabbath starting in like seventy-four. I was very young when I first heard Sabbath, about eight years old. And to me, it just, it still connects with me, I don't know why, I just love them. But, but the one thing that really does strike me, and because I was a fan during the contemporary times of those seventies and eighties records, I don't think any of us knew as fans that Ozzy had a charisma that went beyond just being a great singer.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:52Billy Corgan?

  He's beloved in a way that very few people in music are. And you love the man, but you've also had a front row seat to like, the way he connects with people is very unique.

• 40:06Billy Corgan?

  Did you have a sense of it then?

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Yes, when I started to hang out with the band more and more. Because really, Tony and I were, had a friendship. Like he would come in, you know, like I say, he would give me a call, I'd take him to some clubs, whatever, whatever.

• 40:23Billy Corgan?

  Tony is a very sensible person, he's kind of gentlemanly and.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Very gentlemanly and, I mean, he's just a nice person to hang with.

• 40:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  He's very social, Tony is very social and, you know, we had a friendship.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  And I just, Ozzy has this thing, he's just.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  You can't dislike him. He had the best smile in the world. The best smile. He would smile at you and, you know, you'd just like, you'd wanna hug him.

• 41:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  And he always remained, he still is, a fan of music and other musicians. He's a huge fan. And I think that people got the sense of him that he's very genuine when he says, "I love you."

• 41:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  He does.

• 41:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, you know, like, and you saw it. He would always say in concerts, "We love you."

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:27Billy Corgan?

  And I can't think of anybody who ever said it the way he did. People will say, "We love you, thank you," but he would say it through the whole night.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:33Billy Corgan?

  And now, all these years later, I realize he really meant it.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, he does. And he, over and over and over, and there were times when people would say things, "Oh, Aussie's crowd is this, that, the other." "Have you seen the Aussie crowd?" "Jesus, you know, nothing like Sting's crowd or the Stones' crowd."

• 41:53Billy Corgan?

  What a thing to say.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  But, but...

• 41:55Billy Corgan?

  I understand.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  And Ozzy would go insane. He would go insane when he would hear those things.

• 42:02Billy Corgan?

  Because to him, it's insulting the people he loves.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  It's insulting. It's like, "How dare you? These are my people. How dare you say these things?"

• 42:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's beautiful.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  You know, and it's like ticket pricing and, you know, "Oh, you know, if you wanna go see the Stones, it's this much money." And he's always very much like that working mentality. You don't do that. Why make your fans pay more to see you?

• 42:29Billy Corgan?

  God bless him. So, take me through, you've known him for years, and then one day you're in love and managing.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Well, it was when... The band had decided definitely Ozzy had to go.

• 42:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  And Tony said to me, who do you think I could get for a singer? And I said, I know this guy, Ronnie Deo.

• 42:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  So I introduced them. They got on really well.

• 42:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  Because Ronnie was a very social guy, too.

• 43:00Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Very easy to talk to.

• 43:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  And they all hit it off, which was great. And they got rid of Ozzy, which was not great for Ozzy. Because he didn't have any confidence in himself.

• 43:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  So he thought he was like over, over. Embarrassed to go back home to see his wife and kids. Embarrassed to tell them.

• 43:28Billy Corgan?

  So, but.

• 43:29Speaker 01

  And then

• 43:32Speaker 01

  my father and I, and we just said, we could keep both. Why not?

• 43:36Billy Corgan?

  Ah, I see.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  That's what we do.

• 43:38Billy Corgan?

  So did you kind of take over sort of day to day management or?

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:41Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So where does this lead to? Your father accusing you of stealing him and all that?

• 43:48Speaker 01

  Because I realized that Ozzy's record. I realized with Jeff Lynne. Jeff Lynne, I used to work with all the time and Roy Wood.

• 44:01Billy Corgan?

  But for context, Ozzy was signed to Jet.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Ozzy was signed to Jet Records.

• 44:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  And then Jet Records was distributed by, in those days, CBS. It's now Sony.

• 44:14Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  So we wanted out because I knew for Ozzy that.

• 44:20Billy Corgan?

  You wanted out or your father wanted out or?

• 44:22Speaker 01

  I wanted Ozzy out because I knew he would never get any money. Never. My dad used to wait after the tour, first tour. Where's the money? Give us the money. Because then you used to get paid in cash still in those days.

• 44:36Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  And I'd have bags of money and he'd say, where's the money? And I'm like, we've got to pay crew. We've got to pay this, that, trucks, buses.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  And I just knew that we would just be workhorses.

• 44:52Billy Corgan?

  So Ozzy was still under a contract to Jet even though he'd been kicked out of Sabbath?

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Individually.

• 44:56Billy Corgan?

  Did he have a key man type of thing?

• 44:58Speaker 01

  It was all, whenever my dad signed anybody, it wasn't just the band. It was the band and individuals.

• 45:07Billy Corgan?

  So nobody could?

• 45:07Speaker 01

  No.

• 45:08Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so do you go to your father and say, he needs to get off of this? And is that where the split starts to happen?

• 45:15Speaker 01

  My father at that time was going through a lot personally. And he had decided to leave my mother and he'd got some young woman that he was living with here. And his head wasn't in it. All he wanted was the money.

• 45:32Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  I mean, he always wanted the money. My father's attitude was, I'll make you a star and I'll take the money.

• 45:41Billy Corgan?

  That's the, okay. So what happened first? You taking a bigger role in Ozzy's musical life or falling in love? Like, how does that? What's the sequence there?

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Taking care of Ozzy. He was married, two little babies. And it was one of those cases of having such belief in him that this is gonna work.

• 46:09Billy Corgan?

  Did you just feel it?

• 46:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then when, of course, when we met Randy, it was, you know, we were like the Three Musketeers.

• 46:17Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  And I managed Randy. And he was under contract to me, not my father.

• 46:25Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know that part of the story.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  No.

• 46:28Billy Corgan?

  Very good.

• 46:29Speaker 01

  And I learned from my father.

• 46:35Billy Corgan?

  Well, you are his daughter.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  And. It was just a very magical time when you believe in something so much. And your whole being is in it. And I had a lot to prove, Ozzy had a lot to prove, Randy had a lot to prove.

• 46:53Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  So it was like, that's all we did was work, work, work.

• 46:57Billy Corgan?

  Would you say at that point, your faith was greater in Ozzy than Ozzy's faith in himself?

• 47:01Speaker 01

  Yes, because he didn't believe in himself. He kept saying, I know I can't do it without Sabbath. You know, nobody will want me, nobody will remember me, they won't care about me. And I'm like, nah, you can do it.

• 47:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I have this beautiful memory of playing basketball in my front yard. You know, we had a little hoop. And they said, coming up. The new song from Ozzy, Osbourne, the former lead singer of Black Sabbath. You know, but then they went to commercial.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:31Billy Corgan?

  So I'm just out there shooting baskets. And so it would have been Crazy Train, I think, would have been the first song. And I, and I, it was that, one of those moments in your life where you stop and you go. What is, what is this? Because I'd heard all the Sabbath records. And I certainly recognized his voice, but it was like, it felt like this lightning bolt, like something is happening.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:51Billy Corgan?

  And I couldn't wait to hear it again. I felt like I was at the middle of something so new. I could really feel it. And I was, you know, 14 years old, playing basketball. But I remember stopping and just looking at the boombox because whatever you all had created in that moment, it was shocking. It had that, like, great music has a way of feeling like you're fast forwarding in the timeline all of a sudden.

• 48:15Billy Corgan?

  So back to your father's on the business side. So did you guys have an amicable, okay, I'm going to manage him? Or he, he didn't refuse or like, just give me, walk me through the business side of it all.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  He wasn't actively working, my father. He was there, sure. But he wasn't actually physically doing anything. I was doing it.

• 48:33Billy Corgan?

  But Oz is under contract to your.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  To my father.

• 48:35Billy Corgan?

  To your daddy. So how does that work?

• 48:37Speaker 01

  Well, I was doing all the work. We were.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  He paid him his advance for his first album, which was fifty thousand dollars for Blizzard. But we back-to-back made two albums.

• 48:55Billy Corgan?

  Right, while you were waiting for the first one.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:57Billy Corgan?

  I wanted to ask you, was that waiting because you guys knew you had a hot record and you're trying to set it up?

• 49:03Speaker 01

  I just said, we're gonna spend so long touring the world that we need to have a record come right away. So we did them back-to-back. And my father hadn't paid Ozzy or Randy for the second album.

• 49:20Billy Corgan?

  OK.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  And I was like, you can't do this. They won't, and I would lie and I'd say, they're refusing to go on stage until you pay them their record advance. So I was like, playing mind games with him. And because I wasn't on his side, that was really this thing that broke.

• 49:40Billy Corgan?

  He saw you siding more with?

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:42Billy Corgan?

  OK.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  And then it would be him against us. And we were this force and it was just like breaking worldwide.

• 49:50Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  And he wasn't a part of it and they kept saying, Randy's terrible, he's got to go.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  Because?

• 49:58Billy Corgan?

  That's crazy.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  They didn't have control of Randy.

• 50:01Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  So they wanted Randy out.

• 50:03Billy Corgan?

  Ah, OK.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  And we're like, no, he ain't going nowhere, he's staying. And my father, we would hardly speak and then one year went to a year and a half and it was hostile and...

• 50:16Billy Corgan?

  But Ozzy's still under contract, your daddy?

• 50:18Speaker 01

  Still under contract. And then we said, we're getting married and we want out. Totally, totally out. What do we have to do to get away from you?

• 50:30Billy Corgan?

  So now it's just a business thing, right?

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:32Billy Corgan?

  OK.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  So he said he wanted a million and a half and an album. And in those days, you know, it was a load of money.

• 50:40Billy Corgan?

  That's a lot of money.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  So he wanted?

• 50:41Billy Corgan?

  That's still a lot of money.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  He wanted a million and a half and another album.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  So we said, okay. So I had to go to the record company and say,

• 50:55Speaker 01

  Ozzy's gonna be leaving Jet. You wanna sign him directly, which they did.

• 51:00Billy Corgan?

  So you got the future advance to?

• 51:02Speaker 01

  You've got it.

• 51:02Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  And so they gave me the money to pay my father. And then we gave him, we're thinking, God, what can we give him quick to get rid of it?

• 51:12Billy Corgan?

  Like a live record?

• 51:13Speaker 01

  A live Sabbath record. So it was like, sorry to the fans, but we had to do this.

• 51:20Billy Corgan?

  I like that record still. It's kinda fun.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  So that's got rid of him, but I did get rid of my father. My father was...

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Wherever we went, there was somebody, you know, he'd send his little Italian guys that would turn up at gigs and say,

• 51:43Speaker 01

  "The publishing, your father still wants Ozzy's publishing. He's not giving up on that." And the guy would sit there and he'd have his foot on the coffee table and he'd have a gun in his boot. And he'd pull his trousers up to try and scare me. And I'd be like, "I don't give a [bleep] what you've got in your boot. I don't give a [bleep]."

• 52:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Wow.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  He's not signing.

• 52:05Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And...

• 52:08Billy Corgan?

  So...

• 52:09Speaker 01

  It was hell. It was hell with my father.

• 52:12Billy Corgan?

  The little girl in you's gotta... breaks your heart, no?

• 52:16Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. It was like my father had died. I was pining my father. Pining for my father.

• 52:23Billy Corgan?

  Cause up to then, you guys had had a good...

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, listen, with ELO, I stood behind him with everything. And I was, you know, Jeff Lynne was a friend of mine.

• 52:34Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  He lived at my house, him and his first wife lived at my house with me in L.A. We were, it was like a family.

• 52:43Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  And then when Jeff...

• 52:48Speaker 01

  Said to me, "Your father owes me four million." And I'm like, "Four million? No, he doesn't."

• 52:57Speaker 01

  And that was Jeff was the thing that actually turned the light on in my head, that what people were saying was true.

• 53:06Billy Corgan?

  So walk me through a little bit of what it's like to manage the man that you love.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  It's very difficult. It's very difficult, Billy. He... And even he says, somebody asked him that question. "What was it like being married to your manager?" And he, his answer is, "I never knew who was talking to me, my wife or my manager."

• 53:33Billy Corgan?

  A bit of both, maybe.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:35Billy Corgan?

  Well, in many ways, what you would think was best for him as a wife and for your family is probably the best thing for him, too.

• 53:44Billy Corgan?

  In reflecting on your managing Ozzy, I think not only have you done an incredible job, and I can give you some specifics of why I think why that is, but I also think that you were very ahead of your time in figuring out that what Ozzy brought to the table and Ozzy's ability to connect with people, you broke him past the boundaries of music, which nowadays is kind of standard operating procedure. But you figured that out way earlier than most people. I don't think anybody in the music business circa 1986 figured that Ozzy had tons of money in him in 50 different directions. Did you have a prescient sense that that's where the business was going to go?

• 54:28Billy Corgan?

  Or that's just how you wanted, how you saw good business? Does it make sense? Did you have a vision of it, or that's just what you felt?

• 54:35Speaker 01

  I just felt that Ozzy... Do you want to know the biggest mistake I ever made with Ozzy?

• 54:41Billy Corgan?

  You're going to admit to a mistake?

• 54:43Speaker 01

  Yep. I have several, Billy. We could be here all night.

• 54:47Billy Corgan?

  I gotta get ready for this one.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  He got offered to go and read for Pirates of the Caribbean. And I've never said this to anyone.

• 55:01Billy Corgan?

  And you said no?

• 55:02Speaker 01

  I said no.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  That wouldn't he have been perfect?

• 55:07Billy Corgan?

  He would have been perfect.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  I know.

• 55:09Billy Corgan?

  Maybe it's not too late, but God bless, but that's funny. God, it's interesting to think of him in that thing.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Because when Johnny wanted Keith to be a pirate, do you remember?

• 55:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, of course, yeah. I love that.

• 55:27Billy Corgan?

  The glib version of the question is, how do you balance somebody who has addiction issues with making those important professional choices? But I know in your world, it's so much more personal than that. You know what I'm saying? So, and you're a person who's, to the best of my knowledge, I mean, you're basically always been sober.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:48Billy Corgan?

  I don't think I've ever seen you drunk or high or, you know, I mean, this is the person that I do.

• 55:53Speaker 01

  Drugs were never my thing.

• 55:56Billy Corgan?

  So stepping outside the rock and roll conversation that we're having, anybody who's struggled with a partner who's struggling, that's a tough thing. And then when you amplify it into the public sphere, that makes it even more complicated. So what was your, did you have a plan? Did you think, I just have to manage this? Like, what was your, as you're going along, how are you figuring this out?

• 56:21Speaker 01

  After I had my kids, because we had them very early and there was only a year in between each one. They called the Irish twins, but your whole life changes. You know that. Your whole life changes.

• 56:36Billy Corgan?

  It's all about your kids.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Everything. And Ozzy left two children with his first wife. And I saw what the children would, you know, the disruption, what it does to kids. And I thought, I don't, I can't have this happen again. And another three kids. How can you do that?

• 57:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  And so every time...

• 57:04Speaker 01

  It would get bad and I'd go, oh Jesus, I should just, you know, go.

• 57:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  But you think, no, I've made a commitment. He, I love him. And I cannot have my kids come from a broken home.

• 57:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Cannot, I just can't do it. I've seen the damage. I know the damage.

• 57:23Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  I've lived it. I don't want it for my kids. And I just adored him so much that whatever he would throw at me, I'd

• 57:36Speaker 01

  I'd throw back at him. You know, we had a very, very volatile relationship.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Because Ozzy came from that generation.

• 57:47Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  You know, you can hit a woman, it's fine, you know. And I'd seen so much violence growing up with my dad.

• 57:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  Not that he was violent to me, but with other people.

• 57:57Billy Corgan?

  But you saw it, yeah.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it was just like, well, that's what people do, don't they?

• 58:01Billy Corgan?

  It's the same in my world.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:03Billy Corgan?

  You, you tell somebody, oh, I'm getting my ass kicked. And they say, well, you think it's any different next door? It's just the world we grew up in.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:10Billy Corgan?

  So now, of course, people have different conceptions of it. So for you, was it a, because I, I meant to ask you this question. It's like, because you've always had a hard-charging, aggressive managerial style and, you know, you, you certainly believed in what you believed in. You know, you were never shy about saying what you felt and you certainly defended your husband in a million different ways. In, in almost every case, you were right. He turned out to be the legend that you believed him to be. It's easy to say that now, but you know, whether it was stupidity about biting the head off a bat, all that stuff that we would

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:46Billy Corgan?

  see in Cream magazine. You know, now people think it's funny, but at the time, the music business was way more conservative and

• 58:53Speaker 01

  Oh, Conservative Billy, they would take his albums out of Every Tower Records. They would, you know, ban him on certain radio stations. And it was like, he's not a killer yet. I mean, like

• 59:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  It was just, I mean, serious. I, I can remember CBS calling me and saying, if Ozzy ever comes to our premises, or after he bit the dove off in the meet and greet that we had, um, he's

• 59:28Speaker 01

  We will stop releasing his records and we will not let him be sold to another label. We will just destroy him.

• 59:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, and back then they had that power. That was a real, that's a real threat.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:42Billy Corgan?

  It's not like now where he can run to social media and

• 59:45Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 59:46Billy Corgan?

  Get the fans to rally behind. Back then, if they wanted to digitally

• 59:49Speaker 01

  Sit on you.

• 59:50Billy Corgan?

  Analog assassination, if they wanted to, they could. And they could get all those stations to stop playing your records.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:57Billy Corgan?

  Remember that, I don't know if you know that story where there was all the payola going on in the late 70s and Pink Floyd got sick of it. So they basically said, "We won't be part of the payola process." And CBS tried to work the record without the payola. And every radio station in America basically said, "Okay, we won't play Pink Floyd anymore."

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:00:18Billy Corgan?

  And that's when Pink Floyd learned that the power that they thought they had, they didn't have.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  They didn't have. And it was, it was all like, you know, "Oh, you need a new car." "Oh, you want to go to the big game or the World Series?" Whatever it was. All of those radio people would be there, you know? That's how, the perks of the job.

• 1:00:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  They weren't gonna stop that.

• 1:00:37Billy Corgan?

  So the question that I was after was,

• 1:00:41Billy Corgan?

  and this is why I kind of connected it to the world that you and Ozzy grew up in, this kind of post-war world. It's like, because sometimes people ask me, like, "What is success? Is success winning or is success survival?"

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Survival.

• 1:00:57Billy Corgan?

  That's what I thought you'd say, but I wanted to hear it from you.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  It's absolutely survival.

• 1:01:01Billy Corgan?

  Just keep.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  And, and the whole thing I always used to say to Ozzy was, "We just want to stay here. You never want to go here because there's only one way, and that's down. We just want to stay here, consistent, consistent."

• 1:01:18Billy Corgan?

  I think, as an outside observer, and obviously we know each other a bit, but I think Oz Fest is probably your greatest coup. Did you have a logic behind that at the time?

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:29Billy Corgan?

  So tell me your logic. I want to see if it matches what I think.

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  Okay, well, everybody was playing Lollapalooza, everybody. And, you know, they had all those alternative stages, they had the Singing Monks, they had Tom Jones, yada, yada. And I'm like, yeah. And I'm like, "Well, what about Ozzy?" And the agent for Lollapalooza said, "Ozzy's not relevant."

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  And that me off. Because I thought, how disrespectful.

• 1:02:02Billy Corgan?

  How about, how about half the bands playing, "Oh, a debt to Ozzy."

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  It's like, how disrespectful to say that about any artist.

• 1:02:10Billy Corgan?

  But especially someone that was very influential to the alternative.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  It was like.

• 1:02:15Billy Corgan?

  Music world. I mean, I mean, everybody but Peter Hook from New Order, Kurt Cobain, me, we were all in debt to Sabbath on some level. Sabbath is one of the weirdest bands in the world in that they really get love from the alternative community in a way that almost no metal band ever has.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  No, I never will. It's, it's like.

• 1:02:40Billy Corgan?

  Probably.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  It's, it's, I can remember Ozzy was at a studio and Kurt was in the studio and he in another room, the studios, and he came in and he'd written "Ozzy" on his knuckles.

• 1:02:55Billy Corgan?

  Okay, that's all you need to know, right?

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  And it was like, Ozzy was like, "Oh my God, that guy in that sweater, you know, the one."

• 1:03:04Billy Corgan?

  That little kid?

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:08Billy Corgan?

  I want to talk about your life in, in, in television because ultimately this interview is about you and you've had a very interesting life. But I don't know how to frame the question, so maybe you can frame it better than I can, but there's been a lot of fighting, there's been a lot of skirmishes. Does that come from a sense of, again, the need to survive? I need to defend what I'm after? Does it come from a sense of justice or, you know? Like, the one thing I do know is you don't like bullshit.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  No, I don't, I don't like to pretend. And the thing is,

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  for me going into TV.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  I looked at it as a manager. I'm not an artist, I'm a manager.

• 1:03:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  I don't have an artistic bone in my body, but I just look at it as if.

• 1:04:01Billy Corgan?

  Sure, but did you ever have aspirations of, it sounds glib to put it, like making it about you because?

• 1:04:07Speaker 01

  No, never, and it came as a complete surprise when I was asked to do things when we finished The Osbournes.

• 1:04:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  And I'm like, okay, what's the deal? If the deal is good, I'll take it.

• 1:04:19Billy Corgan?

  Did someone approach you to do the show or was it an idea that you had?

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  The Osbournes? No, it was, um, the kids and Ozzy, I wasn't in it, did, um, Cribs.

• 1:04:30Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  And it was the most requested Cribs. So they came to us and said, well, we want to do something, what can we do?

• 1:04:38Billy Corgan?

  Ah, so then you bring in people and people start riffing. Did you, were you hesitant to let people inside your world as much as you ended up? I mean, it became very personal.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, no, I was like, no. It was.

• 1:04:53Billy Corgan?

  Did you see how it would help the business?

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  It, no, I, it, because initially it was only meant to be three weeks and it ended up three years.

• 1:05:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  And that's how we got to own The Osbournes because the guys came, the film crew came, and a year later, they were still filming and it hadn't been released.

• 1:05:14Billy Corgan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  And then they said, we've got to do a deal here. I'm like, okay.

• 1:05:19Billy Corgan?

  Wow. Yeah, I mean, now, looking back, I mean, it's such a groundbreaking series. You know what I mean? Do you see it that way?

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Um, funnily enough, we'd looked back on it as a family together. We were looking at it all as a family, the four of us. And it actually disturbed me.

• 1:05:42Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it did.

• 1:05:43Billy Corgan?

  Tell me, tell me what?

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  Um, for my kids.

• 1:05:47Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 1:05:48Speaker 01

  You know, Amy didn't want to do it.

• 1:05:50Billy Corgan?

  I remember talking to her at that time.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:53Billy Corgan?

  I, I asked her point blank, why do you do it? She goes, I don't want anything to do with this mess.

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  And I, I looked at my kids and what they were subjected to because I allowed them to.

• 1:06:04Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  And their behavior and I was shocked.

• 1:06:07Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:10Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  But you're in it so deep. And when it came out and it was like, everybody thought it was amazing. I'm like, do they? Okay.

• 1:06:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  I can remember my best friend, who is an agent, said to me, "You can't let this go out. This is disgraceful. You cannot, you've got to stop it." And I'm like, oops, too late.

• 1:06:35Billy Corgan?

  Too late. It did, am I right or wrong? And this might be an improper assumption. It did seem to revive Ozzy's musical life in a way. Was it because he, am I wrong about that?

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  No, you're right. Because there were people that had kind of heard of Ozzy's name, but had never seen him.

• 1:06:56Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  And so they saw him and they either fell in love with him or hated him, but more fell in love with him. And then they would go out and buy his old records. So it helped everything because fans that we never thought he would ever reach.

• 1:07:12Billy Corgan?

  But it's interesting. It's interesting that it was more of an organic process inside your world. Because looking from the outside, it's like, it seems like a genius coup, you know? They call it like first mover advantage, that you'd figured something out.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:07:24Billy Corgan?

  But Oz Fest, you know, that, I think.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  That, it's because they were so disrespectful about Ozzy. I was like, I'm gonna show you, you bastards. How dare you say that about an artist? And I went insane. Came up with the idea, well, we'll do our own festival. We'll do a heavy metal festival. It's never been done, let's do it.

• 1:07:49Billy Corgan?

  It definitely worked.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  And it worked. And it was like 20-odd years of fantastic summers, fantastic bands.

• 1:07:59Billy Corgan?

  Look at the relationships that were made because of that festival.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Exactly. Amazing. And what it did was, it then opened the doors for other promoters in other countries to do the same thing. So for the genre of music, it was passing the torch. And I look at the bands that are now doing their own festivals and I'm like, it's great.

• 1:08:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:22Speaker 01

  It's fantastic.

• 1:08:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:27Billy Corgan?

  At what point do you make peace with your father again?

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  Okay, there were years that it was just horrific for me. I mean, we'd be asked to leave restaurants, certain restaurants that my father... Oh, yeah. I mean, like, everybody in the beginning thought that Ozzy and I would fail. Everybody. The whole industry thought that we would fail.

• 1:08:52Billy Corgan?

  Well, they don't know you very well.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  And we had a really, really hard time. I remember one time I came back from a meeting and the nanny was in the hotel room. This was before we had a house here. And my father had been on the phone and spoken to the nanny and said, "Tell my daughter to get out of town and get those kids and leave this town."

• 1:09:18Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so how do you make peace with that?

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  My father was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. And he'd lost all his money. He ended up, and he had air supply. That was the only thing he was managing, and then that dwindled. And we've always, always, our entire family has always been huge spenders. My father would be, "You've got it. You spend it. I'll make more." And he kind of passed that on to me, unfortunately. But he had nothing. And he had Alzheimer's. And my mother had died. And there he was.

• 1:10:02Billy Corgan?

  Did you pick up the phone, or he picked up the phone?

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  No, Ozzy. I wouldn't pick up the phone.

• 1:10:08Billy Corgan?

  So Ozzy picked up the phone?

• 1:10:09Speaker 01

  Ozzy said, "You have to go to your father."

• 1:10:13Billy Corgan?

  So how do you feel when he tells you that?

• 1:10:15Speaker 01

  I'd like...

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  I just paid a tax bill of my father's because not only did I work for my father, but all his companies, everything, everything was in my name, everything.

• 1:10:30Billy Corgan?

  Did you know that at the time?

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I trusted him. I didn't know. I, you know, we're flying to Singapore. We're getting, you know, fifty mil from this bank in Singapore. Sign for it, Sharon, sign for it, you know. Oh, OK, I'll sign for it.

• 1:10:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  Bull, bull, you know.

• 1:10:48Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  And, um.

• 1:10:51Billy Corgan?

  Did you go see him or call him?

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  I called him and it was early Alzheimer's, so, you know. And then he had a bad heart. And then I said, OK, I'm coming to England. I'm going to get you fixed up and I'm going to bring you back to America. And that's what I did. I brought him back. I put him in an apartment with nurses. And then after a while, he needed to go into a home because it was full on Alzheimer's. And it sucked big time.

• 1:11:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  It's wicked, wicked thing to ever have.

• 1:11:27Billy Corgan?

  I, I went through it with somebody in my life and watched it up close. And it was very hard, it's very hard.

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  It's, it's heartbreaking. And I used to have a sound system in his room for him so we could listen to all his favorite music.

• 1:11:42Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  And he would sing along, but you ask him how he's doing, nothing. And that's the healing of music.

• 1:11:52Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  He would sing along, not mess up one lyric.

• 1:11:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:01Billy Corgan?

  Was it hard for you to make peace? Or did you say, I'm just going to do what I need to do and then kind of sort it out later? Does that make sense?

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then when my father died, I went and sat with him for a while.

• 1:12:16Speaker 01

  Said everything I wanted to say.

• 1:12:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:20Billy Corgan?

  I hear you. My father passed away a couple of years ago and I'm still in that space. I haven't quite worked it out yet, but I get it.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Did you have a good relationship with your dad?

• 1:12:29Billy Corgan?

  It was back and forth. It was back and forth. He had such terrible drug issues that, you know, like a lot of people with those issues. It's like one day it was the greatest and awesome and awesome best daddy in the world because he loved music and we'd talk about Jimi Hendrix and the time he did this. And then the next day he'd be like, you know, "Give me 15 grand." And I'd be like, "Why?" "Because I need it."

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  Sounds like my dad, but my dad didn't do drugs or drink.

• 1:13:01Billy Corgan?

  The drugs is the complicated thing because you're always in that space of like...

• 1:13:07Billy Corgan?

  I did say one thing once to him where I said, because I was always very judgmental of him doing drugs. And I said to him, "I think I understand now daddy." And he said, "What do you understand?" And I said, "I think if you hadn't done drugs, you would have killed yourself." And he said, "That's true." So at least I found some peace there. It was like, even though I don't like it and I don't like what it did to our world, I also can appreciate that that was your way of staying here. And I do think that was true.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  Because I truly believe that the drink and the drug makes addicts feel the way they always want to feel. And they're trying to fill that big hole that they all have inside of them.

• 1:13:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, well, I mean, think of all the people, your husband included, that you've watched throw away opportunities and moments in life because they're just not able to hold it together. It's a tough thing for everybody involved. So because of The Osbournes, they start calling you for television. Were you surprised by that?

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Totally. I'm like, "Oh, okay." And then I get a call from a company that wanted to do a chat show and then...

• 1:14:18Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:14:18Speaker 01

  And this thing is with me, I was on a...

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  Because I'd been in the industry my entire life. I get it, I get it. And it's like, people who make TV think that they're saving lives. It's TV, it's a TV show, that's all we're making. It's not that important in the big picture of life. But people who work in TV are like, oh, you know, this, that and the other and um. I, a lot of the time, I would be off because I wasn't getting paid what my male

• 1:15:01Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  counterpart was getting paid.

• 1:15:04Billy Corgan?

  I have a feeling that didn't sit well with you.

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  No, and me off big time and um. A lot of things that they were doing, I didn't agree with. And but I played the game and then in the end I was getting greedy. And then it's like, what am I doing?

• 1:15:23Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  You know? Again, we're not saving lives here. It's just TV. And it's um. And everything I've always said to artists is, if you don't want it, someone else will do, replaceable, replaceable.

• 1:15:39Billy Corgan?

  For sure.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  And there's always talent coming up. That's one thing you can never stop, wars can't stop it. There's always that wonderful creative spirit in people that will always go on. And I'm, I was just like, I don't need this, I don't. What am I doing? What am I doing? I'm prostituting myself out for a paycheck.

• 1:16:07Billy Corgan?

  Was the attraction that it was good for business?

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  No, it was um. Okay, I've done it. You get on my nerves, I don't really like it, so I'd leave. Or then I would have an argument with, America's got talent here. I fell out with horribly NBC. The people who I fell out with have since been let go under bad circumstances and um. I'm very happy about that. And um. It was awful, the situation with NBC was horrible. They had offered my son a reality show, which was a

• 1:16:49Speaker 01

  SAS forces with celebrities. Who's gonna win, this sort of thing.

• 1:16:56Billy Corgan?

  Okay, sure.

• 1:16:56Speaker 01

  And my son had always loved extreme sports and things like that. Shooting and all of that. And he was really up for it. And he got diagnosed with MS.

• 1:17:09Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:17:10Speaker 01

  And we had to tell them. And then they went, oh, no, you're a liability. We can't have you. And they just chopped him off at the knee. And I said, well, why doesn't he host it?

• 1:17:24Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  He knows all the language, everything that you're doing. Let him host it. No, he's a liability. And then I just said, fuck you, I'm leaving the show. And I left under such bad circumstances. I couldn't believe the way they were behaving. And I don't care. Because I'm not looking for my next gig.

• 1:17:50Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  So I can turn around and say to them, go fuck yourselves. Take your little TV, shove it up your ass and leave. And they're not used to people talking to them like that.

• 1:18:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  They get like, she's insane, she's this way. I am insane, but it's like...

• 1:18:08Billy Corgan?

  I don't want to rehash the stuff that happened with the talk show, The Talk. But I certainly didn't like the way you were treated. That seemed strange to me.

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  It was very, very strange. And I was sticking up for my friend who I've known for years.

• 1:18:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  And I know for a fact, Piers Morgan is not a racist.

• 1:18:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  Absolutely not a racist. He's... And I didn't like what they kept saying he was. And I was standing up for him and saying, no way. And why does... Even if he was a racist, which he's not, and a friend of mine, why does that make me a racist? Because I'm his friend.

• 1:18:50Billy Corgan?

  Well, we've lived through this very strange time, which hopefully is ending of this kind of

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  I hope so.

• 1:18:55Billy Corgan?

  guilt by association and innuendo and clickbait. And I really hope that we can kind of come out some other side because it's very damaging to the West, where we really are the place of freedom. And we're setting a very terrible example.

• 1:19:10Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:19:11Billy Corgan?

  If we're trying to take away, like, let's call it the ability to even just disagree. You know, I always love that saying, "Let's agree to disagree." It works perfect in a band. You're having the band argument and you say, "You know what, let's just agree to disagree."

• 1:19:23Speaker 01

  Exactly. And the thing is, because, you know, everybody wants to know, "Who are you voting for?" Well, actually, it's none of your business. Right or wrong. And they either like you or don't like you, depending on who you're voting for. And it's like, it's none of your business.

• 1:19:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, well, hopefully, we're coming out of it.

• 1:19:41Speaker 01

  I hope.

• 1:19:42Billy Corgan?

  I think, please, Jesus.

• 1:19:47Billy Corgan?

  It's sort of a general question, and you can take it any way you want. You've had health struggles, and thank God you got through that. And I saw something where you, they said, "You've been open about your depression, but I don't know what that means." Is that something I just read, or is that true?

• 1:20:06Speaker 01

  No, it's true. I've had it for years, and...

• 1:20:10Billy Corgan?

  Do you think it's chemical? Or is it sort of unresolved stuff?

• 1:20:16Speaker 01

  I think back now and things that I've learned and read, and I honestly think it was, I was born with it. I've always had that, you know, put-on-a-jolly-face, showbiz face. And then, you know, when everybody's gone, you're like this. And I've always, always had it. And then, something else. I didn't realize that I had ADHD until last year.

• 1:20:45Billy Corgan?

  That's pretty late in the game to figure that one out.

• 1:20:50Speaker 01

  I just thought that I had one of those heads that didn't stop, didn't stop. And it's like, you know, I've got the TV going in my head, the radio, and an album. It's like all going on at one time. I've got all of these different things going on, and it's... That was really enlightening because I just thought, why doesn't anybody else have this? And I can't explain it.

• 1:21:18Billy Corgan?

  Would it voice itself in insomnia or nervousness?

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  Oh, never sleep.

• 1:21:21Billy Corgan?

  Anxiety and...

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  Never sleep. Always been just a couple of hours.

• 1:21:27Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I'm up all night. You know, and the head starts, the voices, all the [BLEEP].

• 1:21:34Billy Corgan?

  So, because I think most people look at lives aren't like ours and they say, you know, it's hard for them to relate because in the American estimation, and you've been in America for so long, if you have success, that's the cure-all. And of course, we know that it doesn't work like that. In many ways, I'm not saying it makes it worse. It makes it more difficult because you're navigating public, private,

• 1:21:58Billy Corgan?

  different struggles, so...

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  I'm too, in this business, you don't want to show people your insecurities.

• 1:22:06Billy Corgan?

  Oh, no, that's the worst.

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  The worst.

• 1:22:11Billy Corgan?

  And maybe that goes back to my question about the public squabbling. And I'm not trying to get anything specific because it's not important to me, but is that maybe part of what made you feel like you had to be feisty? Do you know what I mean? It's like, you know, sometimes it's easier to fend the front gate than when somebody gets to the door, you know?

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  I think a lot of it had to do with my time that I was born and also what I did for a profession. There wasn't many women doing it.

• 1:22:43Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  If you were a woman, you were what they called the secretary. And you go and you, you know, you do your letters and you do my appointments and that's what women do. And you look nice and you take care of...

• 1:22:53Billy Corgan?

  When you started managing Ozzy in 1970, whatever, I mean, how many women managers were there in the world?

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  I think one, Billy Joel's wife.

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  But it's um.

• 1:23:06Billy Corgan?

  It is, it is very much a boys' club.

• 1:23:10Speaker 01

  Unbelievable, and you know, the record industry in those days was coke. Go to a strip club, get some hookers. Oh, we go to a game and then we go to the strip.

• 1:23:21Billy Corgan?

  Or golf, or.

• 1:23:22Speaker 01

  Everything, so you were never accepted. And it was either, um, she's here because of her father.

• 1:23:31Billy Corgan?

  Or her husband.

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  Or her husband, and it was like, no, fuck you. And it was.

• 1:23:39Billy Corgan?

  No one says fuck you better than you. It just has a ring to it.

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  But it just, it was just something that I had to survive. And I, this is all I know.

• 1:23:48Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  I didn't know anything else. This is how I live.

• 1:23:51Billy Corgan?

  So have you survived?

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've done extremely well, learned a lot, horrible mistakes, but nobody's perfect.

• 1:24:03Speaker 01

  Nobody's perfect.

• 1:24:04Billy Corgan?

  So what hills are left to climb for you? I mean, you've, you have done it all.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  Um, to be a good grandmother.

• 1:24:13Billy Corgan?

  I like that.

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, a good grandmother, be wise for my grandkids, teach them wise things. And take care of my hubby.

• 1:24:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:27Billy Corgan?

  I saw the, the speech he gave at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

• 1:24:34Billy Corgan?

  I guess what I'm after is, it seemed that him getting in on his own was really important. Not because he didn't deserve it, of course he deserves it, he should have been in long ago. But it seemed to strike a particular nerve in him. Is that accurate?

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  Yes, because he still thinks, a part of him still thinks that he's less than.

• 1:25:00Billy Corgan?

  It's amazing.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was.

• 1:25:04Billy Corgan?

  Well, maybe that's part of his charm, you know, because he really is that guy, you know? I mean, I've met him many times and he really is that guy.

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, he is.

• 1:25:13Billy Corgan?

  He doesn't have a bad bone in his body. It's, it is kind of remarkable.

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  He doesn't, and he has no jealousy, he's um.

• 1:25:22Speaker 01

  He's happy for everyone that does good and, you know, he is a very delicate soul. And it sounds crazy saying that about Ozzy, but he's a very delicate soul. But all people, I honestly feel that, again, it comes with being a creative force. Really, all artists are delicate.

• 1:25:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Last thing I want to ask you, because your lives are so intertwined. You know, when did he retire? Like, you remember there was the retirement tour? That was a long ago, right?

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  Oh, that was in 92.

• 1:25:59Billy Corgan?

  OK, that's what I'm saying.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  That was because, at that time, he was having problem with one of his legs. And we took him to a doctor, and he was wrongly diagnosed with MS. They said he had MS, but he didn't. He had Parkinson's. But we, the guy just gave us the wrong diagnosis. So I thought he had MS. So I said, OK, we're retiring. We're going back to England. We're taking care of daddy. So when I got to England and I went to some professors, they said he doesn't have MS, which of course he didn't. But they didn't pick up it was Parkinson's because they're very similar.

• 1:26:41Billy Corgan?

  So I guess what I'm after is, it seems like, and you know, it doesn't matter the year, it's just the idea. It seemed at some point, he clicked into a phase, and I think he even saw quotes along the way. This is not recent, but in my mind, that he needed music to keep going. And I'm not saying to live, but it seemed like music kept his spirit up or his...

• 1:27:06Speaker 01

  He says, his own words are, "It's the only thing I've ever been good at." And he doesn't want to give it up.

• 1:27:13Billy Corgan?

  Well, good for him.

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. He gets such joy from it. He loves it, just loves it, loves... You know, some people can just kind of cut that side of their life off and then go and retire.

• 1:27:27Billy Corgan?

  And I've seen it, yeah.

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, me too. He can't, he can't do it. He loves it so much. And that's what's so...

• 1:27:36Speaker 01

  Tough because, you know, he wants to be with the guys touring and.

• 1:27:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Okay, so last question. Could you have imagined, like, I mean, them on the floor in 1971 at your dad's office? Or you, when you guys fell in love, like, that you guys went on this crazy journey? I mean, it's a really unique, in a way, very American, maybe I'm being biased. America has a way of creating this strange opportunity where people step forward. And, and you and your husband have stepped forward so many times. Even just preparing for the questions, it's like, and then Sharon did this, and then Ozzy did this. And then there's, I mean, we could talk for 18 hours about this tour, or that thing, or this feud. Or, I mean, you've had a very full life. Do you feel that?

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I'm tired.

• 1:28:27Billy Corgan?

  You?

• 1:28:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm tired.

• 1:28:29Billy Corgan?

  Does it want to be a grandma now?

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  I, listen, I got five of them, five grandkids, and hopefully more. Because Kelly's looking forward to having more babies, but I, I'm tired.

• 1:28:44Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 1:28:45Speaker 01

  I, it's okay.

• 1:28:49Speaker 01

  How about this? I'm not happy at the way the industry's run.

• 1:28:55Billy Corgan?

  Okay. I love, I love this part.

• 1:28:57Speaker 01

  And I can't keep screaming. I can't keep screaming and trying to make things change. Or it's still, you know, the, the one thing that gets me is, and I try and explain this to all young musicians. If you see a house that you want, you go to the bank, you ask for a mortgage, they will give you the mortgage. You pay off that mortgage, and then the house is yours.

• 1:29:25Billy Corgan?

  Not in the music business.

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  Not in the music industry. You pay for your marketing, for everything, and they own that album. And I cannot, and it's, too, the same with, with everything, film, everything. It's like, what are we doing here? And then, you know, now it's, they, they, they're insisting on the publishing and merchandising, and it's.

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  It's got to a point where there's so much money in it that they forget that it's human beings that they're dealing with. We're not cars, we're not cans of soup. It's human beings. And it just gets me like this.

• 1:30:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I'll tell you a little story and it's a good way for us to end. I was in a meeting, a big, big meeting. And they were showing me all this data about my band. And they were doing that very kind of subtle way. Like if you could only point this direction, you know, it would be in your best interest to point this direction. And then I asked a question about something to do with radio or something. And they said, well, this station is still mad at you about something you said in 92. This station is mad that you didn't play their

• 1:30:41Speaker 01

  Summer Festival.

• 1:30:42Billy Corgan?

  Their fish fry in 97. And they just kept going on. And I'm not, I'm not a person who's quick to lose his temper. I'm actually, when I get mad, I get really mad. I don't even think you've ever seen me really mad.

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  I haven't, never.

• 1:30:56Billy Corgan?

  I have a horrible temper when I do lose my temper. And out of nowhere, it was like, you know, something snapped and I slammed my fist on the table. And everybody kind of did one of these, like, what the? And I said, quoting Popeye, "I am what I am. The thing that makes me great is the thing that makes me terrible. The thing that you think makes me marketable is the thing that makes somebody want to puke in a bucket and never hear my voice again." I can't separate who I am. I am the way I am. And even in our squabbles in the years, it's like, you are you and I am me.

• 1:31:35Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:31:36Billy Corgan?

  And that's it. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's kind of the way it's supposed to be. They're trying to saw the edges off of the true weirdos and the true one-of-a-kinders, you know? They would love to turn into a cookie dough business.

• 1:31:50Speaker 01

  Of course, but look at it now with all the Korean bands that come out and all this K-pop.

• 1:31:58Billy Corgan?

  Have you ever heard how they do that music?

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  Oh, please, I just

• 1:32:01Billy Corgan?

  Let me just tell you one quick thing. Because I had a friend, he went over there for a while, lived over there a while, ended up hanging out with those people. So they have these rooms. And literally in one room, they'll just write choruses.

• 1:32:14Billy Corgan?

  They don't try to write a song, they just write choruses. And in another room, they have the kids are really good at writing bridges. And in another room, they have kids are really good at writing verses. That's how they do it. So they literally just write verses all day. Because that's what they're good at, these kids. And then, when it's all said and done, they have a pile of a bunch of stuff, they'll go, "I'll take that chorus, that bridge, and that verse." And that's how they make those songs. It's just a factory.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  Oh, it's a complete factory. And, you know, they'll chop these kids up to make them look kind of like more Western. And then, you know, they'll use them, as soon as they get old, out, a younger one comes in, and it's just soul destroying. Totally soul destroying.

• 1:33:01Billy Corgan?

  Well, we're not gonna be able to fix it.

• 1:33:04Speaker 01

  No, we can't.

• 1:33:06Billy Corgan?

  You know, last thing I would say is like, you saw in your youth, and obviously your daddy saw this amazing moment of rock and roll being born. In the greatest music engine of all time, which was the UK in that period. And then, your husband, you know, and of course, many other pioneers, invented a genre of music that nobody knew existed. Everybody held their nose and said, "To hell with it." And here we all still are, talking about Black Sabbath 60 years later and all this stuff. So, there is some justice, but I think at the end of the day, they still win. I don't know why, I'm just cynical about it. Do you feel that way?

• 1:33:42Speaker 01

  I am, I am. Listen, one of the guys that runs the biggest record company in the world turns around and goes, "We have to [bleep] the artist before they [bleep] us." And that's your philosophy of running-

• 1:33:56Billy Corgan?

  Did they say that out loud, or you just heard that behind the scenes?

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  Out loud.

• 1:34:00Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:34:01Speaker 01

  And it's like, what? No.

• 1:34:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  Why can't it be win-win?

• 1:34:09Billy Corgan?

  Well, I think that gets to the reason why they're in the business. We're in the business because we love it. We love the concert, the lights going down. They're not in the business for the moment the lights go down.

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  No. No, they're not.

• 1:34:23Billy Corgan?

  There's always that guy, I remember, it was like, I called it, "I'm the guy." "I'm the guy who signed Nirvana. I'm the guy who found Guns N' Roses. I'm the guy." Usually a guy. So, but we're us. God bless. Thank you for coming.

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  It's so good to see you.

• 1:34:38Billy Corgan?

  You too.