Jack Osbourne | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

In this deeply personal conversation with Billy Corgan, Jack Osbourne reflects on growing up in the spotlight, getting sober at 17, and carving out his own path beyond the shadow of rock royalty. He revisits the reality TV phenomenon that reshaped pop culture and the pressures of teenage fame, shares intimate stories about his parents’ relationship, the gentleness and laughter behind the chaos, and what it was like watching Ozzy wrestle with fame and self-worth. The conversation turns emotional as he revisits Ozzy’s final Birmingham show: the Herculean effort to make it happen, the healing reunion with Black Sabbath, and the peace Ozzy found at the end. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  I didn't really anticipate all the attention because you don't think about it, right? Mainly because we didn't know what we were doing.

• 1:08Billy Corgan?

  It couldn't have been good.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  No, it wasn't.

• 1:11Billy Corgan?

  What's your sort of general memory of it? Do you think of it fondly now?

• 1:14Speaker 02

  What pops to mind for me the most is the gentleness and the laughter.

• 1:18Billy Corgan?

  To see such great artists move in one direction. You see the power of rock music in full display.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  I'm already crying because of the joy.

• 1:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30Speaker 02

  He did it.

• 1:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  He did it.

• 1:35Billy Corgan?

  Jack, good to see you. Good to see you too. Thanks for being here. Lots to talk about. Okay, so whenever I'm going to interview someone, I try to do a deep dive, learn things that I didn't know. And this one caught my eye, so I wanted to start here because it kind of made me laugh. The Osbournes reloaded, right? Yes. Reloaded.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  A little, yeah, uh, yeah, a blip.

• 1:58Billy Corgan?

  I was like, first of all, how did I miss the Osbournes Reloaded? For quick context and correct me if I'm wrong, it only, there was only one episode that aired.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:08Billy Corgan?

  Total disaster as far as TV world. Like, I don't know. I want your opinion on it, of course, but.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  Totally. Yeah. So it was a, we, we shot an entire series for Fox. It was a variety show.

• 2:19Billy Corgan?

  Two thousand nine?

• 2:23Speaker 02

  Eight, nine ish. Yeah, I think so.

• 2:24Billy Corgan?

  Two thousand nine.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it was very short-lived because, uh, ad sales, like, hey, they were like, this is horrible. You can't do that. It was like too shocking and they pulled it and I was like, wait, what? The, the, the same network that has like Family Guy?

• 2:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  That's making like Hitler jokes and, you know, we, and it was because we did a, on the first episode, we did this like blind date thing where we had a guy blindfolded and something, I forget what the context was, but he ended up having to make out with like an 80-year-old woman and he didn't know, blindfolded. And they found it just too, you know, too hot for TV.

• 3:07Billy Corgan?

  So it was produced by the same company as American Idol?

• 3:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:11Billy Corgan?

  American Idol was your lead in, so it was obviously set up for success. The debut was only 35 minutes, not 60.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:19Billy Corgan?

  Sketches, stunts, hidden camera stuff, music, celeb cameos.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:24Billy Corgan?

  Many of the TV affiliates refused to air.

• 3:29Billy Corgan?

  One critic called it the worst variety show ever.

• 3:33Billy Corgan?

  Episode one, uh, it had your father, uh, Ozzy dancing in a leotard.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Quite possibly, yeah.

• 3:42Billy Corgan?

  Uh, another, another critic called it must flee TV.

• 3:49Billy Corgan?

  You also had a thing where a couple was pressured to marry on the spot, which they did.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  Yep. I remember that.

• 3:55Billy Corgan?

  And then there was some skit about Ozzy and Kelly working a fast food job.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:59Billy Corgan?

  Which, that sounds fun.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. It was like this diner down by the airport. Yeah. It was fun. Yeah. It was like this, we, and my, my dad like flung a piece of bread at my mom and it poked her in the eye and like burst her, like, I guess, whatever the sack is in your eye and she, it was like a whole thing. Okay. So, yeah. I want to bring it back.

• 4:21Billy Corgan?

  I think all the episodes now are online, somebody said, but I hadn't gone looking for them.

• 4:26Speaker 02

  It's all right. You're not missing anything.

• 4:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it sounded like an interesting car crash.

• 4:29Speaker 02

  It totally was an interesting car crash. Yeah, it was fun to do, but yeah, I'm glad it never went.

• 4:36Billy Corgan?

  I guess it's easiest to start with the Osbournes, the successful version of the show. Because, you know, it sort of brought you and the family into the the public consciousness way. And in many ways, people got to know your mom and all that.

• 4:50Billy Corgan?

  I know originally it was pitched as a three week thing. It was supposed to be short term.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:54Billy Corgan?

  And we don't have to go deep into it because the episodes are all there if people want to watch. But what's your sort of general memory of it? Do you think of it fondly now or?

• 5:03Speaker 02

  In hindsight, I think of it fondly. In the moment, I can remember being really. I mean, I was I was 15 when we started filming. And so I don't care who you are, 15 is not a very.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  Fun age.

• 5:18Billy Corgan?

  Especially early online, people are probably saying stuff about you.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And this was in like the, you know, blogging days and all that, like before social media. And I just didn't, I wasn't, I didn't really anticipate the all the attention because you just, you don't think about it, right? Mainly because we didn't know what we were doing. We were at home, people were filming us and you're like, oh, well, is this, you don't know what's going to make air and what's not.

• 5:44Billy Corgan?

  Well, plus the editing makes things seem worse or better.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah. And so when the show blew up, literally overnight. I really resented it for, I was like, this is terrible. Why did we do this? And I was like smoking weed and drinking and I, and I didn't want to get caught and there's cameras everywhere. And so I had a lot of, a lot of struggles with it.

• 6:07Billy Corgan?

  When I interviewed your mom, she, she did say that she regretted doing the show and I, and she said because of what it did to my family.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:15Billy Corgan?

  But.

• 6:17Billy Corgan?

  Now that you're a bit older, I mean, you can see it certainly had a lot to do with your father's continued success.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 6:22Billy Corgan?

  Sort of introduced him to a whole new crowd. And I think in many ways led him to be a more of a cross-cultural icon.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 6:29Billy Corgan?

  Beyond music.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:31Billy Corgan?

  So in your, in your estimation, looking back, generally positive?

• 6:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, hindsight, very positive.

• 6:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Cause it's kind of, we were a part of something which changed the way people, you know, made entertainment.

• 6:48Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  And.

• 6:50Billy Corgan?

  I mean, it's, it's kind of funny because now it's very fondly remembered and considered a groundbreaking show.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:55Billy Corgan?

  But at the time, there was a lot of debate about, is this too much and what was fake?

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 6:59Billy Corgan?

  What was real and.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:01Billy Corgan?

  All that type of stuff.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so I think for me, when I, I'm like, oh, you know, it's kind of, uh,

• 7:08Speaker 02

  I don't know, flattering to a degree because I was a part of something which kind of helped. You know, it was a contributing show and helping change TV.

• 7:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  And so that, that's, you know, I, I, I don't, I don't kind of poo poo that.

• 7:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:23Billy Corgan?

  What, what attracted me to kind of set up talking about it was that, you know, you've kind of gone, gone in your own life in television. You know, you've done a lot of producing and hosting and when did you, that kind of become your own thing?

• 7:34Speaker 02

  I learnt really early on when, when doing the Osbournes, I'm like, oh, when you're on camera, you're kind of a, you're just a talking box of tide. Like, you don't have any control. You don't have any like say, they're kind of like, this is what we're doing. You know, we're paying you, do it.

• 7:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  And I was like, I want to have control. So it was born more out of, I think, me just wanting to have a bit more say in what I was participating in.

• 8:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  And, and so that, when, when the Osbournes ended, I started working a lot in the UK. And I did this like travel adventure show over there and, and really learned about what it takes to produce a show kind of soup to nuts. And, um, and I just, I enjoyed it, you know, I enjoyed the creative outlet.

• 8:21Billy Corgan?

  Was it originally a thing where it's like, well, you've got this momentum for the TV show. You could, you could pursue this as a way to make some money. Or what was your original sort of entree into television past the, this, the original series?

• 8:32Speaker 02

  I think it was, I was just getting calls and different opportunities presented to me after the show ended. And, and I was like, well, because my plan was before the Osbournes. I was gonna, I wanted to join the army. So like, I was gonna finish out high school, cuz I was in, I was in ninth or 10th grade when nine 11 happened. And I was all like, damn, I'm going to the army. And that was kind of my plan. I was, I was working at Epic Records as a talent scout. But I just was like, yeah, you know what? Friends are going to college. I think I'll just go to the army for a few years and, you know, do that.

• 9:08Billy Corgan?

  Were you attracted to the discipline of it all or?

• 9:10Speaker 02

  I think it was, yeah, the, I think the discipline, I think the, the potential adventure, I think, I don't know, I've just, I've always been a bit of a, I don't know, it's just always appealed to me for some reason. I don't know why. Like, I like doing hard things.

• 9:25Billy Corgan?

  What did your family say when you said you wanted to go to the army?

• 9:28Speaker 02

  Uh, my dad was like, that's stupid. You can't, you know, hated it, hated it. And then, and then I actually, after doing, you know, in my early twenties, I then actually really attempted to, to join the military and I, I wanted to go into the air force at that point. And they wouldn't accept me cuz I had tattoos. And I'm like, and I was in there with this recruiter, I'm like,

• 9:47Billy Corgan?

  Now they're, now they're begging.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're like, please, anyone. But it was like full on like two thousand, I think it was like two thousand nine, ten-ish. And they were like, it was like full on war. And I'm like, wait, so you're saying you don't want me cuz I have tattoos, but like, I was like, that makes no sense. Like, we have standards. I'm like, okay. Good luck with that.

• 10:06Billy Corgan?

  This would have been the British, British army?

• 10:07Speaker 02

  No, it was American.

• 10:08Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay. Really?

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:10Billy Corgan?

  Wow. Cuz now I know they're, they've relaxed every one of those codes, I think.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll say anyone.

• 10:18Billy Corgan?

  Just curiosity question, ever thought about going into music?

• 10:24Billy Corgan?

  I actually, I actually tried to find a clip of you singing and I couldn't. I found a clip of you bad rapping.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:29Billy Corgan?

  Against your sister.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:31Billy Corgan?

  But I, I couldn't find any of you singing.

• 10:33Speaker 02

  I, I never wanted to sing. I, I, I, when I was a kid, I played guitar a little bit and then drums.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  I always saw it as a huge uphill. Even if it was just as a hobby, I just was like, you know, I could.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  Write the greatest song ever and I would never get full credit for it just because of

• 10:56Billy Corgan?

  Cause you're dying.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  This is my dad, you know, oh, it's just, it's Ozzy's son, you know, and I was like, you know, and also I was like, how the hell am I ever gonna? Like, those are some big shoes. Like, I'm not even gonna attempt to put those on.

• 11:09Billy Corgan?

  But have you sung?

• 11:10Speaker 02

  No. I think maybe in the shower.

• 11:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. The reason I ask is because your father has such a distinctive voice and obviously genetics play a huge role and I had this instance once where I was in a car with my brother and he forgot I was in the car and he started singing and it was like I heard my own voice come out of my brother's body. And I'd never heard my brother sing because he didn't want to sing.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:32Billy Corgan?

  And I had that moment of like, oh, he can sing like that too. So I was thinking in the same way. It's like whether you had any of that chop because your father's such a great singer.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  My sister's got the singing abilities. They both, they both can sing very well. And I just, I, it's, I'm terrified of it. I think it's

• 11:51Billy Corgan?

  It is lonely up there.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  It's very lonely and, and I always, and I've always looked at it like, I think stand-up comedy and singing are two of the scariest jobs you could ever do.

• 12:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah. So going back to you in, in, in television, portals and hell. I was, I was, I, I knew that you'd had success in television, but actually looking at it on paper, I was like, wow, you've done a lot more than I thought you had. So congratulations, because as you know, getting out of your famous parent's shadow is something that's not easy to do. And I think it's cool that you've taken those opportunities and actually made your own

• 12:24Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 12:24Billy Corgan?

  thing with it. So just, just to share with me like portals and hell.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  The paranormal stuff?

• 12:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, I grew up loving the X-Files. And so, and it was like a

• 12:34Billy Corgan?

  I actually went to the X-Files set once.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  Really?

• 12:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Oh, that's cool.

• 12:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, we talked our way into it.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 12:41Billy Corgan?

  I think it was about 96.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 12:43Billy Corgan?

  They, they were shooting in Canada because it was cheaper to shoot in Canada.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:46Billy Corgan?

  And we talked our way onto the set.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  That's amazing.

• 12:49Billy Corgan?

  So we spent like a whole afternoon watching them shoot.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  Onset in Canada, like Vancouver somewhere.

• 12:53Billy Corgan?

  That's so cool.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  And somewhere he gave me his watch, so I had his watch. Um, and then we got to know them and they came, they came to a show after that a little bit. So it was cool because we, we actually got to be part of the X-Files thing, why it was happening.

• 13:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah, no, that's.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Because you remember back in the day, that show was like.

• 13:08Billy Corgan?

  Massive, yeah.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  And, and I grew up.

• 13:10Billy Corgan?

  I'm surprised they haven't brought that show back.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  They, they did actually, they did like a 10-episode run and it was okay. You know, but.

• 13:17Billy Corgan?

  Seems like a, a no-brainer for this world.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so. Uh, they could, they could do so many cool, cool stories.

• 13:23Billy Corgan?

  Sorry, I interrupted you.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  No, no, no, it's fine. So I, um, I got super into paranormal as a kid. It was just a hobby. My dad and I used to like geek out and we'd always, he'd take me to like Barnes and Nobles and you're always buying me like UFO books. And it was just like a thing, like him and I bonded over at a, at a young age. And, uh, let's see, it was in 2011. I got a call and, and they were like, hey, we're doing this paranormal show. Do you wanna, and I was like, hell yeah, like I love that stuff. And, um, I just jumped on board of this production and it was this, uh, it was a show called Haunted Highway. And we filmed it all ourselves, kind of like Blair Witch. Um, and it was like a paranormal investigation show. We did everything from like cryptids to UFOs to ghosts and whatever. And, um, it just kind of worked.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  And the interesting thing about the paranormal world, uh, as far as like TV shows go, the viewers are really critical of the on-camera talent. Like they call bullshit real easy. And for some reason, they just liked the way that I went, my approach, like investigating it. Cause I never went in with full tin, full hat on being like, no, it's Beelzebub. It's like, I was always kind of a ske- a bit of a skeptic. Um, and I think it just, people liked it because it was a bit more of a rational approach to doing these ghost shows. And, um, and it just worked. And for years I just, you know, did series after series and portals to hell. And then I did, um. Um, uh, what was it? Um, what was the other one?

• 14:51Billy Corgan?

  See, you've done so much.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  I know, I can't even remember. It was Night of Terror and I did a show with these, I did like a footage show where we reviewed footage with these three other guys and yeah.

• 15:02Billy Corgan?

  Have you had paranormal experiences?

• 15:04Speaker 02

  Have very strange.

• 15:05Billy Corgan?

  What's like the most intense one you can think of?

• 15:07Speaker 02

  Man, I had, um, I was actually just telling my daughter about this. We were filming at this place in, in LA, actually. It's called Heritage Square. And it's this museum where they took the oldest standing houses in LA. And they, they moved them to this park. And so there's like six.

• 15:26Billy Corgan?

  I've been there. Yeah. We shot a video there, so I know that. Yeah.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  We were in this house and one of the, I was just doing like a little on the fly interview. And we were in this staircase and there was a door behind a producer. And they're asking me questions and it sounded like someone was trying to open the door. And we were like, hey, we're filming in here. Like, you know, hold, hold it. All of a sudden the door just flies open. Like, and we're all just like, what the, like, that was wild. And I've had stuff like objects moving, um, you know, crazy stuff with like EVPs and, you know, using different, you know, devices like a rem pod or mill meter. And, but yeah, anytime you see stuff move that shouldn't be moving and then you can't really explain why it moved.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  That's, and you know, we always check windows and like, could have been a gust of wind or whatever. And we sat for like 15 minutes trying to recreate the door opening like, wait, did someone open a door on the other side? Create a vacuum? Nothing.

• 16:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah. I had once where I've, I've, I had, I lived in an old house from the 1800s and

• 16:32Billy Corgan?

  you know, when you feel like there's somebody in the room, we've all had that experience. Anyway, I had this intense feeling like there was somebody standing in the closet. And the closet was like, literally you could just put one person in there.

• 16:44Billy Corgan?

  And I, I was so sure that somebody was in the closet that I went up and opened it really slow. I'm just expecting somebody to barge out. And this is like, you know, you grew up in celeb land. It could be a stalker for all you know is in there, right? So I opened the door really slowly and it was a sealed room. The window was sealed. There's no, and, and when I opened it, the, um, the light, the string for the light was swinging like this. And there was no wind and I opened the door really slowly. And it was, it was like.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:12Billy Corgan?

  Now, if somebody could say, well, that was nothing, but for me,

• 17:15Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 17:15Billy Corgan?

  the presence and the feeling and why did I have to look in there and opening it slow and seeing this thing just on its own?

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. And there's something to it, you know, I'm not, and I was never one to be like, oh, it's always a, you know, the ghost is the, you know, conscious spirit of a once living human. Like, I kind of came away from it being like, I don't know what this is, but something is happening. Not everyone is crazy.

• 17:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  And I mean, you do come across some crazies for sure.

• 17:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  But Pete, these experiences that people are having and myself included, it's not nothing.

• 17:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Did you ever read a holographic universe? You know that book?

• 17:49Speaker 02

  Uh, I have not read holographic universe. I just read simulation theory.

• 17:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. It's, it's this idea that, that, you know, there's the different planes of existence and quantum world.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:59Billy Corgan?

  And so that might be a, at least a scientific way to get some teeth to why maybe some of what we're experiencing that we call ghosts or paranormal activity might just be sort of the,

• 18:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:09Billy Corgan?

  the loosening of the bonds between the bands of reality.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  And I kind of like came up with like, you know, I kind of chalked it up to a few things, you know, one, one thing that I, I often talk about was exposure to mold, causing people to hallucinate.

• 18:25Billy Corgan?

  Well, if you've ever seen that stuff about the, um, the Salem witch trials where they think they were all high out of their minds on, on cooked bread or something.

• 18:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And so you have incidents like that, or what if there's some un, undiscovered, undetected energy spectrum that when you encounter, it can elicit hallucinations, you know, people that live on the power lines, they get headaches and the power company will tell you, oh, that's, that's not real, that can't happen, but it does.

• 18:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I met a gentleman recently who, and he's been public about it, where he, he was one of the people who have, uh, I think he sued the government because he's one of the people that said that they were attacked by energy weapons in Cuba.

• 19:01Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 19:01Billy Corgan?

  Actually had dinner with him not long ago.

• 19:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Did you see the stuff in Venezuela about the energy weapons?

• 19:06Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:07Billy Corgan?

  That's wild.

• 19:08Speaker 02

  I was, I was talking to a friend of mine, um,

• 19:11Billy Corgan?

  We're referring to the Maduro, when they took Maduro.

• 19:13Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah. Um, a friend of mine, he, um, Can't say too much because he's a, he's a pretty, he's one of the sneaky poopy guys, but he's been in fighting, uh, he's been in a war that's been going on for a while now.

• 19:26Billy Corgan?

  God bless. I get you. I've met those people.

• 19:29Speaker 02

  Yep. And, um, he, a couple of months, it's about a year ago, I was texting him and I'm like, oh, you know, how's it going over there? Like, what's up? And, and he's like, oh, I just got back from testing this new weapon. And I was like, oh yeah? He goes, it's the most terrifying thing I have ever seen in my entire life. This guy's a career soldier. Um, and I was like, what is it? He's like, I can't tell you. I was like, is it lasers? And he goes, he's like, he would like laugh at lasers. He's like, no, we've been using lasers here since, you know, day one. Um, but it's terrifying.

• 19:59Billy Corgan?

  And so when you saw that, you thought?

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I hit him up and I was like, would that, is that what you were talking about? And he just gave me like the side eye emoji.

• 20:07Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. It's a pretty, pretty wild.

• 20:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I think in that, uh, not to make light of it, because obviously it's anything involving violence is, is scary to me, but I think they said 20 elite US troops, I think, took on 200 guys.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:26Billy Corgan?

  So whatever's going on is, uh,

• 20:28Speaker 02

  And there was like barely any, any, any casualties on our, it was like just a superficial damage on our side.

• 20:34Billy Corgan?

  The one, I saw an interview where the guy said he felt like his head was exploding and then people were instantly vomiting and blood and blood was coming out of their noses. I don't know how we got down this rabbit hole, Jack.

• 20:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, hey.

• 20:47Billy Corgan?

  Let's get those tinfoil hats out.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Yes. Um,

• 20:51Billy Corgan?

  Ozzy and Jack's World Adventure.

• 20:53Speaker 02

  Well, Detour.

• 20:54Billy Corgan?

  Detour, sorry. World Adventure, that's my title. Uh, 2016 to 2018.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. Best job ever.

• 21:00Billy Corgan?

  Tell me why.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  It was like just the, we had the best time. Um, so it was the show, basically that the premise was me and my dad initially. It was gonna be called, uh, uh, it was gonna be called Historically Incorrect. With Ozzy and Jack and we were gonna go, because we were both history buffs. Go check out these different historical sites. I went to Stonehand, we went to Japan, went to Cuba.

• 21:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  Um, and then it kind of turned more into this like buddy road trip types, type show and, um. And it was just great. We just went and did cool stuff, met cool people and. Most of it was done with us driving around in an RV all across the country. Um, it was just awesome. It's just like the best time.

• 21:43Billy Corgan?

  And that's something he enjoyed.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  Oh, he loved it. He loved it. Even when he was so sick, he was like, come on, let's, let's do the show. Let's do the show. And I'd be like. Dad, you really wanna go in an RV and like traipse around the country and just stay in hotels? He's like, yeah, it was, it was so much fun. Yeah, it was, uh, it was just great. It was just fun to spend time with him and just have wild experiences. Yeah.

• 22:05Billy Corgan?

  I know your pop loved his World War II history.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 22:09Billy Corgan?

  I was thinking recently, cause I, um, sometimes I buy old photos and I'd bought a, um. A photo book of a World War II soldier.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 22:18Billy Corgan?

  Um, it's just like, like, like, it's all family pictures. And the reason I bought it was there was one picture in there where the kids are little. And, you know, there may be like five and seven, you know, classic picture of two little girls, but they're wearing. Uh, his and maybe a buddy's like Nazi death head hats.

• 22:37Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 22:38Billy Corgan?

  And it's such a weird contrasting picture, because the whole album is just this family, kids growing up.

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:44Billy Corgan?

  Kid in the crib, all the classic pictures. And there's just this one picture where it's the kids are wearing the hat.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:50Billy Corgan?

  And I know your dad loved that, tended that historical, that three dimensional aspect, because obviously he grew up in, in, in, in, in that. That environment. I talked to your mom about that too, growing up in, in post-World War II Britain.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it was, and people, I think, especially Americans, don't realize that after World War II. Every country that the Allies bombed, they, those countries got built up before. England or, or France. So for so long, England was just riddled with these bomb sites.

• 23:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  And that's, that was his playground.

• 23:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 23:26Billy Corgan?

  Your first memories of your parents, because I think about this with my kids, because people will say to me, and I'm sure you've heard it, people say to me, "Do your kids know what you do?" So what are your first memories of what your parents did? Or who they were in the world? You know, when you sort of realize, oh, these just aren't my parents. They have this whole other thing going on.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  It's funny, it's kind of, I think probably around school age, so like five, six-ish, did it really start to sink in? And we grew up on the road. Every break from school, summer holiday, you know, we were in the, you know, in the tour bus, had our own bunks, whatever. And it was normal for us.

• 24:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  But it wasn't until, you know, my best, best friend, still to this day, his dad's a Tyler. And he's a Tyler. And it's like, so I'd be at his house and, you know, his dad's going to the, the job site. And, and that was so being exposed to like other families, then I would be like, oh, okay, my, my dad's job's a little different. Or when something would happen, it would be in the press and all the kids at school would say stuff to us. That's when it really hit. It wasn't until I was probably

• 24:36Speaker 02

  10, 11, 12-ish, that, that I started to really absorb it on, for the creative side, like understand the music and listen to it and kind of start respecting it in that capacity. But yeah, from a young age, it was, it was always, it was always apparent. And, but I, and the funny thing is though, even from a young age, I was like, oh, I always knew my mom was in charge.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  I always knew that, yeah, she called the shots.

• 25:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:07Billy Corgan?

  Of course, your, your grandfather, Don Arden.

• 25:09Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 25:10Billy Corgan?

  Legend in the music business. And at some point, he came and lived with you guys, right?

• 25:14Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, later on, yeah, when we were, yeah, in my, in my late teens. Yeah, he, he, he was around a lot more. And then he had Alzheimer's and so he had to go into a home. But, uh, yeah, I actually, I actually in my whole childhood was told he was dead until I was about 13 or 14.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  And then.

• 25:33Billy Corgan?

  And then they made peace.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:37Billy Corgan?

  Because you've had such an insider's view growing up in the business, what's your impression of the music business in terms of what it does to artists?

• 25:45Speaker 02

  Man.

• 25:45Billy Corgan?

  Because you know, your grandfather managed very famous acts. And I talked to your mom about that when she was here. And then, of course, your father is institutional. When you were born, I mean, eighty-five, right? So Sabbath had already been together and broken up. And he'd had incredible success with Blizzard of Oz. So he was a well-established music artist at that point. But growing up in the music business, I think you have an interesting perspective, I would think, in terms of the contrast between what artists go through personally, but then also what the music business kind of does to their heads.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  Sure. Yeah, I think something that doesn't get talked about a lot is like, it's hard work. It is not like, I don't.

• 26:27Billy Corgan?

  I like to say it's not for the faint of heart.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it really isn't. And I think, when you ask that question, what I reflect on is a lot of the,

• 26:37Speaker 02

  my friends who were like baby bands on Ozfest and then blew up shortly thereafter. So like Incubus or System of a Down or Geisen Disturbed. And just seeing kind of from them being like, oh, you're going on at eleven thirty tomorrow in the morning when the gates open, to then some years later being like.

• 27:00Billy Corgan?

  Headliners.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  Headliners. And so getting that perspective to see the growth and the journey, you know, it's, some people handle it, some people don't. And I think a lot of that just comes down to self-understanding of like, what is it you're actually doing? You know? And yeah, it is a very strange thing because it's, you know, I say this a lot. Every actor wants to be a rock star because when,

• 27:28Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  When you're performing your art, you're on a set like this and there's maybe ten, twelve, you know, it's a big movie, a lot more people watching you. But then not. Giving you the feedback.

• 27:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:40Speaker 02

  And there's something about, I think, when you step on a stage, just from my perspective, I've never done it professionally. But what I've always observed is like, there's power in that. When you're standing there, I'm sure, and you can speak to that, when you're standing there in front of thousands of people and they are all there to see you and to experience your

• 27:59Billy Corgan?

  Or you like your adrenaline.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:01Billy Corgan?

  I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's the ultimate adrenaline.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah. And, and I think that can, it can, it can corrupt.

• 28:10Billy Corgan?

  Well, you can see why it becomes addictive in its own way because, you know, you get so jacked up on that dopamine that it's like, where else are you gonna find that?

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Do you get scared?

• 28:20Billy Corgan?

  No, no. I'm more in the mindset now of like, not wanting to disappoint people. There was a whole period of my life where I was, I was okay with disappointing people because in my mind, I was gonna do whatever I was gonna do. And in fact, even with some of my battles with your mom behind the scenes when she managed me, were about this idea of like, why didn't I want to please the audience? To her, it was antithetical. Why, why would you not want to please your audience? So I tried to explain to her like, that the Gen X generation just had a slightly different mentality.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:47Billy Corgan?

  It was more of a sort of, we're gonna do what we do, and if you like it, you like it, if you don't, you don't. That was part of the rebellion.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:53Billy Corgan?

  But of course, she grew up in more that show business environment that your grandfather was part of, which was like, no, if you have an opportunity to be up there, you have to grab people and.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, you gotta give them what they want.

• 29:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, and your father was really great at that. He really had an ability to really emotionally connect. We grew up in a totally different mindset.

• 29:09Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 29:09Billy Corgan?

  It was like, that's why you like shoegazing bands, you know, you stare at your shoes, right?

• 29:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:15Billy Corgan?

  I'm curious, you know, like I said, you born in eighty-five, so your father still did a lot of incredible music afterwards, but most of the music that people focused on had been done before you were born. So when you became aware of that music, I'm not so much interested in your personal impression, but if you want to talk about that, it's fine. It's more about like, when you've kind of came in touch with his, his legacy and what he'd created and people's opinions of him, like, did it change your perspective or your father? Did, did, did he grow in stature in your mind or was it, no, that's my dad and that's what he does? Like, how'd you balance those things?

• 29:49Speaker 02

  It's funny, like, I, I kind of had a way to almost compartmentalize it, right? Like, I had, you know, Ozzy as my dad, who would be the guy that I could go downstairs with and be like, what are you watching? You wanna go get some food? Whatever.

• 30:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  And then I could see him as the artist as well, like very separately.

• 30:08Speaker 02

  And the thing that I I kind of I really enjoyed was like if I was listening to a song or if I, you know, something like I could remember hearing Planet Caravan for the first time. And like coming downstairs and being like, talk to me about Planet Caravan. Like what? Like what?

• 30:25Billy Corgan?

  It is. It is in the Sabbath canon, an outlying track.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 30:29Billy Corgan?

  Stoner.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  Just full mushroom track.

• 30:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I totally like, you know, Bill's playing. I don't know. He's playing like bongos.

• 30:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, and he was just like, we're just around. And something that's really hit me lately is his age when he was doing some of this stuff.

• 30:46Billy Corgan?

  Crazy, right?

• 30:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, a friend of mine recently, he asked me like one of his, we were, we were all hanging out and one of his songs came on and and my friend asked me, so how old was your dad when he wrote that? And I was like, I don't know, 23, 24. And I was like, wait a second.

• 31:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Who does that at 23 or 24 years old?

• 31:03Billy Corgan?

  Like an incredibly talented person.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and that kind of, and being able to kind of have those conversations with him about, you know, his, his work and like the stuff that he created, but he had such humility about it because you know, I, I said this, you know, I've said this since he's passed, like, I don't even think he realized.

• 31:26Billy Corgan?

  No.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  You know, he was just so like, that's just what I do.

• 31:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I think that's in a way what made him so attractive to people, including me, which he, he maintained his sense of humility, which is very rare.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:38Billy Corgan?

  Honestly, it's very rare. And it was, it was genuine. He really was that person.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  I mean, he would have his rock style moments.

• 31:44Billy Corgan?

  Oh, no, no. But I, but I think there's a difference between, between like, hey, I got a job to do and this is what I do and I'm good at my job and, and, and, and there's a competitive aspect. But at least in your father's case, and you can tell me because you were there, there was a sense he was on some level still bewildered by why people loved him so much.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  Hundred percent, hundred percent, because he didn't, for him, it was just, well, it's just what I do. It's just, I know, it's just what I feel like I need to do. And I think he really wrestled with the people's energetic response to that, like, but it, you know, it's this, you know, people, he had diehard fans that just grabbed on to every bit of his output. And yeah, he really.

• 32:34Billy Corgan?

  You know, when, after your father passed, because I'd done the last show with you guys, a few people want to talk to me and they put me that night, the day your father passed, they put me on BBC Radio.

• 32:48Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 32:49Billy Corgan?

  And I'm trying to make you laugh, but so I'm on and, and the guy, you know, they had Henry Rollins on before me and they were talking, he was talking about your dad and then they put me on. And the guy asked me as the last question, how do you, how do you rank Ozzy's musical legacy or something like that? And I said, I know this might sound a little out there, but I actually kind of rank him with Sinatra because if you look at a man whose, whose voice has carried him through a 50 year story and their rare ability to connect so directly with an audience through the power of their voice,

• 33:31Billy Corgan?

  almost in a way that confuses, like Sinatra knew he was a great singer, but I don't, I think even Sinatra would be surprised the fact that people so still to this day are so emotionally connected. And your father had that gift too. And I really struggled to find another male singer that has that same legacy. And when I, and when I compared your father to Sinatra, the guy on the BBC Radio started laughing.

• 33:56Billy Corgan?

  And did it very British and said, well, I, I, I've never, uh, I've never thought about it like that. And then he hung up.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  But, but it's funny because I think what you're, you know, what you're touching on is something that I, I have spent a lot of time thinking about. And I said it earlier, but like the energetic exchange, right? Like when you go, when you, when you consume music, when you go and watch a band, when you, it's, you're, you're receiving like a type of energy.

• 34:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  And, and I, and I think it, I think that there are, there are select people that just get this gift where that energy just resonates and it's, and it will go generationally.

• 34:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:33Speaker 02

  You know, Sinatra being one of them.

• 34:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Um, you talked a little bit before about you partying. Um, I knew a little bit about that. And of course I remember the headlines or whatever, but talk about it from the inside because, uh, obviously a lot of people struggle with addiction, but you're in a unique situation. You're on a hit TV show. Uh, your father is a notorious wild man and the stories are legion about his party. Um, but yet you find yourself in that situation. And just walk us back through that a bit because.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think a lot of it is just, I said, I've said this before in the past, but it's like, you give a teenager a lot of financial resources, a lot of notoriety, uh, and a, and not a lot of boundaries. It, it's kind of a recipe for, for, you know, addiction ultimately. Uh, I just felt like I, you know, there was a part of it, which almost like my dad's wild man antics almost gave me permission to, because it was like, oh, he did it.

• 35:36Billy Corgan?

  I can imagine people also encouraged you.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  Big time. Yeah. Yeah. There was a lot of that.

• 35:42Billy Corgan?

  What was your parents' internal reaction when they realized you were kind of spinning a bit out of control?

• 35:47Speaker 02

  You know, it was, it was huge worry, huge. I mean, they, because they knew I was like up and they knew I was getting out there and doing crazy. I don't think they realized it was like, uh, I, I joke and say, you know, I went pro at a young age. Like, I don't think they realized how pro I went.

• 36:05Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  And it was, it was, it was, it was heartbreaking, you know? And I think they both felt a huge sense of failure because they felt responsible and, you know, an old hat. And it's like, You know, I, I, whether I didn't touch a drop of alcohol till the age of 21, or, you know, drank when I, you know, started drinking at 14, like, I feel like I would have ended up the same way. I have such an addictive personality. You know, if I can get a, if I get a dopamine hit from something, oh, I'll get addicted to it.

• 36:35Billy Corgan?

  Do you believe there's a sort of a genetic root to those things, too?

• 36:37Speaker 02

  I think so. Yeah, I think there's a genetic. I also think there's that bit of nature nurture. I think there's, you know, ultimately, it's my belief that, or, you know, addiction boils down to a trauma response. You know, how it's a coping mechanism.

• 36:51Billy Corgan?

  I agree with that 100%. Yeah.

• 36:55Billy Corgan?

  Were you, I mean, it's hard when you're having a, you know, you're a little bit out of control in life, but did you have some reflection and like, you know, this is certainly affected my father's life in this particular way? Was that, was that part of your thinking or, or was that part of your recovery?

• 37:10Speaker 02

  Hmm. It wasn't, in the, in the moment, it wasn't because you always, oh, I'm never gonna be like that. I'm never gonna be like that. And then you kind of look back and you're like, oh, wait a second. Yeah, I'm kind of acting like that. Um, I was never, I was never to his level. Um, but, uh, he, it was, it definitely, um,

• 37:33Speaker 02

  it, it was, I needed to get sober when I got sober. I got sober at 17 years old and, um,

• 37:39Billy Corgan?

  And you stayed sober, that's my understanding. Yeah, that's amazing. That's a hard, that's a hard thing to do. Yeah.

• 37:45Speaker 02

  I was, I was lucky because I, I got, I got sober with a really amazing group of, of young guys and I had a great community and a lot of support. Um, and I, and I, I kind of did the work. And that's the thing. It's recovery. At the end of the day, there's, listen, there's many ways you can, you can achieve, you know, sobriety and, you know, you can, everyone's got their own path on it. But for me, I just, I needed that, like, all right, here's the roadmap. If you stick to it, it's gonna get better. Um, and it just has worked for me.

• 38:19Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. I do good with, I do good with like, structure and order. Well, because I never had it.

• 38:25Billy Corgan?

  The army or the air force.

• 38:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:30Billy Corgan?

  You know, I've had the opportunity to get to know your parents behind the scenes, but I feel like you should tell people a little bit about who they really are because, you know, there's the TV character version and there's the tabloid version. But I think the thing I would point to, and because I, you know, knew you guys back in the day, there's a real sweetness in your family. It really is. I like to say about the Osmonds, it really is a family business. Can you talk a little bit about that?

• 38:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. You know, we didn't grow up with a big family because of my mom's fractured relationship with her parents and brother and her extended family. And then my dad kind of having a hard time figuring out his place in his family when, you know, he shot up to success and fame, you know, it was, I think he just felt uncomfortable kind of going back to, you know, Birmingham a lot and being with his family just because, you know, it's working class, you know, Midlands culture is, you know, you're going to take care of the family kind of attitude. And there was a, for a time that that occurred and he just wasn't, he was never comfortable with that. And so it was just, it was just

• 39:41Speaker 02

  the five of us for the most part, you know, I had my, my half brother and half sister, but they were, they were in boarding school and then they went off to college and they're, they're over 10 years older than me. So, you know, we would see each other on holidays and things, but just the five of us. And my mom would always say, it's like, this is all we got. It's just the five. And so she really keeping us together, fostering that kind of life that allowed us to always be together, whether it was being on the road or, you know, going to, you know, coming out to LA while dad was doing an album or New York or whatever. She was really adamant about us always being together as much as possible.

• 40:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. But can you talk a little bit about their, their real personalities?

• 40:21Speaker 02

  Sure, sure.

• 40:22Billy Corgan?

  And it's, it's not, it's not the gossip side of the question. It's just like, I think, I think.

• 40:29Billy Corgan?

  I mean, one, one beautiful thing, you know, I had a, you know, as you might remember, I had a very public falling out with your mother and we made friends years ago and have, actually have a very nice connection now. And I think the thing that strikes me when I sit with your mom now and I talk to your mom now is like, we've kind of survived all the BS of it all, including our own BS.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:50Billy Corgan?

  And there's a sweetness there because you're like, there aren't a lot of us in the world who actually live this life. We live this incredible life, this, whatever this craziness is. You grew up in it, so you didn't really get a choice. And I think about that with my kids all the time. They don't really have a choice. But for people that chose to be in it, you know, there's a sort of understanding, like, we've been through something very intense. And I think now that I'm older, I tend to look at like, what your mom's been through, what your dad went through. I look at it with a totally different lens.

• 41:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:20Billy Corgan?

  More so from the, from the family out. Cause I know what it does to a family. I know the stresses that it puts on. So people, of course, look at all the glamorous part of it all. But we also live in like, the hard days, the off days, the weird days, the, you know, including-

• 41:36Speaker 02

  The oh days.

• 41:37Billy Corgan?

  Well, and even, even what it does to your body, to all those years on the road.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:41Billy Corgan?

  You know, you know, because you do a lot of traveling with your work. It's just, it's just not easy. It's just, it's, and, and nobody wants to hear you complain.

• 41:47Speaker 02

  No.

• 41:48Billy Corgan?

  You know, it's hard being a rock star. But, but you understand what I'm saying. There's, there is a cost to all that. And, um, but please talk a little bit about your parents. Because I, I, I think there's, there's, there's something there that's, that story has yet to really been told. And particularly their, their incredibly intense romance.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  There's a, there was always a gentleness, you know, that people never really saw. You know, when we were doing the show, we, we, recently, we watched back the episodes and we did kind of like a watch party series. We, we released online of us, all of us watching the original series. And we were all amazed about how much we used to laugh. Like, there was a lot of laughter in the household, a lot of fun and funny, just like us, just doing stupid- And and I think that's what what pops to mind for me the most is kind of the gentleness and the laughter when when there's no chaos, when there's no, oh, dad, you know, he didn't want to go and do the gig and there's a riot, whatever, or, you know, my mom's, you know,

• 42:45Speaker 02

  falling out with Billy Corgan, or like when when there was no chaos, it it it was always very, um, just funny, just funny stuff and and and gentleness and love, so much love. I mean, it was always, you know, we would all even, you know, we I can I have memories of all of us just being in bed on a Saturday, like watching MTV as a kid, just hanging out, like, you know, and it's it's that's the stuff which, um, I think is it has never really been seen from my parents.

• 43:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, and that's kind of what I was after is that I I I saw that and witnessed it up close.

• 43:27Billy Corgan?

  Your dad's first retirement tour was nineteen ninety-two.

• 43:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I remember that, yeah. The no more tours tour.

• 43:33Billy Corgan?

  I was gonna say, that's that's the perfect age where you're old enough now to kind of know what's going on.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:38Billy Corgan?

  Uh, what was the what was the behind the scenes impetus? It seems very early in the story, but.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, it well, it's because he had a he had a false diagnosis of multiple sclerosis.

• 43:48Billy Corgan?

  Ah, that's right.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, he, um, they misdiagnosed his Parkinson's as multiple sclerosis. And I can remember the final show, we had Jim Rose as a as the opening act.

• 44:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  Uh, it was insane. I can remember being a kid like watching and like, what in the, I mean, that's the kind of shit that I, you know, I don't know if you should show a seven year old.

• 44:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, right.

• 44:12Speaker 02

  But, yeah, and then we we moved back to England. We were living in California at the time, you know, when when we moved back to England, and that's where my parents got, uh, Welder's House, which is the house they still have. And, um, I just remember my dad, it was the first time I just remember him being home a lot. And it was like.

• 44:31Billy Corgan?

  It couldn't have been good.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  No, it wasn't. He started, uh, he started like riding bikes a lot. He was like, he became obsessed with like road biking and and then he got into like motorcycles and he was just bored out of his ass. And he was like, and after maybe two years, he's like, I just I remember him. Saying I gotta this, I gotta get out there.

• 44:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, what point did they figure out it was an incorrect diagnosis?

• 44:57Speaker 02

  I think because he wasn't presenting any symptoms. And, and so then he, um, I think he was like, all right, that's, that's, he went back in the studio, recorded osmosis. And it was just kind of on and popping.

• 45:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  Until he retired again.

• 45:15Billy Corgan?

  And then again.

• 45:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, cuz nineteen ninety-five, I think it is, he, he does the, uh, uh, Retirement Sucks Tour.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 45:25Billy Corgan?

  But talk about being like, you know, seven, 10 years old on the road and, and that, that world.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  They kept me pretty shit, like, until I was about twelve or thirteen, they, they would keep me really sheltered when we were on the road. It was, you know, hotel, bus, venue, dressing room, when dad was-

• 45:43Billy Corgan?

  So you weren't running around with the bands yet?

• 45:45Speaker 02

  Not yet. No, that didn't come till I was about twelve. It was, it was Ozfest, really, is when it started.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  So I was, I was very protected, you know, you would, you would see stuff, just, you know, being stood on the side of the stage, you know, they mean, women flashing, and you know, you'd see a mosh pit and just craziness and, and I, and I have memories of us pulling out of venues and like, as you know, and you would sometimes when you exit, you kind of have to go through like the parking lot and there'd be people like banging on the side of the bus and, you know, all that stuff.

• 46:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 46:17Speaker 02

  So a lot of memories of that. And, but they, it was just fun. It was, I just remember having so much fun and it being so exciting, like, you know, last day of school, cuz in England they have things called half term, which like every six weeks you get like a week break.

• 46:31Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  But you have like a shorter summer and a, you know, it's just different over there.

• 46:35Billy Corgan?

  Oh yeah, that's right, yeah.

• 46:36Speaker 02

  And so I would just count down the days cuz it was like, oh, going on the road, it's gonna be fun.

• 46:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 46:43Billy Corgan?

  You mentioned before, and I actually had a question here, so it kind of connects up about the idea that trauma sort of defines.

• 46:53Billy Corgan?

  Can you talk a bit about, it's hard to put in the right context where it doesn't sound weird, but your father was traumatized by certain things in his life. The most obvious being that Sabbath fired him. And, you know, there's this clip, I think there's some clip that I saw after your father passed, when I was sort of, you know, it's like sentimental, you almost want more of the person because they're gone, but there was a clip where you're, he and your mother were talking and she wanted to do something with Sabbath and he was like, but they fired me. And it was like 25 years later, you know what I mean? But he was obviously still really hurt by that.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:29Billy Corgan?

  And I did talk to your mom about that too, about this idea of like, that it hurt him so deeply that his mates and his brothers would fire him.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:39Billy Corgan?

  And of course Randy Rhoads death, you know, it seems maybe that's did something to him that he never fully recovered from.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  Absolutely. No, no, I never fully recovered from that one at all.

• 47:47Billy Corgan?

  But is, are there, I'm not asking to reveal anything unknown, but what, what, you know, because when you, when you look at someone who struggles with addiction and, and at times at least being around him personally and at times being a fan for so many years, there were times where he just felt, he seemed to be very overwhelmed by what he was into. And the image I always got was your kind of mom going, you gotta get out there.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:11Billy Corgan?

  These people love you and you gotta work and him almost being like.

• 48:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I think it came down to self-worth. He, he's not someone that had a, you know, when he was,

• 48:24Speaker 02

  when left to his own devices, that kind of darkness of like, I am less than, I suck, I'm not worthy, would really take over.

• 48:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Ross Helfen, who you know very well, photographer, Ross said to me after the final show in Birmingham, he said, every gig that he'd ever shot, your dad, going all the way back to like the seventies, he said, after every gig, your dad would be like, I was terrible, I'm so embarrassed, you know, I can't believe these people are cheering for me. And he said, the last gig was the only time that he didn't say that.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  Oh, he was so happy. It was the craziest thing.

• 49:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 49:00Speaker 02

  Cause I, I ran into the dressing room and I was like, you did it. He was like smiling, sorry, I just got.

• 49:17Billy Corgan?

  Well, he did. He did it.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:19Billy Corgan?

  He did it.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  I'm only crying because, ooh, the the joy.

• 49:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. He was so happy. And when they did the switch,

• 49:34Speaker 02

  after he did his solo and then he came out with Sabbath.

• 49:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 49:38Speaker 02

  I'd watched the first bit out in the, out in, uh, out in the audience and I, and I watched Sabbath from the side of the stage and I went into his quick change room and he was like, I'm doing it.

• 49:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  He was just happy. You know, and he was doing what he was meant to do.

• 50:02Speaker 02

  But that was it, you know, and I think that's why I get so emotional at it is because of what Ross just, you know, what you're saying Ross was saying is that he always felt like he did a job. He was always like, oh.

• 50:11Billy Corgan?

  That's crazy to me.

• 50:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Cause I'm, you know, this is a bit of a nerd thing, but you know, there's that weird thing in Sabbath lore where Tony starts to, it's his band, probably was always his band in Tony's mind.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 50:26Billy Corgan?

  And of course we love Tony, but there's that weird thing where now Tony's in the center of the band and your dad's pushed to the left.

• 50:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:35Billy Corgan?

  Which is the weirdest thing in the world. And he's singing in front of Tony's stacks, which are mind numbing. So your dad's almost straining his voice. There's clips of like late seventies, like seventy eight.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 50:47Billy Corgan?

  Where I'm like, I'm thinking, how the hell is your dad singing over this wall of guitar?

• 50:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:52Billy Corgan?

  Probably no monitors or no monitors to speak of.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 50:55Billy Corgan?

  And yet he still sings in pitch and you know, is, I'm just incredible talent. Like, I mean, just a rock singer. I'm like, how do you do that? How did he do that?

• 51:04Speaker 02

  I, I think it was almost that thing of he.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  It was always hungry, right? He was always like, I gotta, I gotta do, I gotta do a good job. I gotta keep the guys in the band hap. I gotta, you know, he, he felt like he had to.

• 51:21Speaker 02

  He had to be good and he had to do whatever he could to be good. And I think that's a part of the, the craziness. Cause he knew he had to, when he got on stage, he had to just. Bring, bring a presence.

• 51:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Um, see if this resonates with you at all, cause I, I know a few people like this. They're so naturally talented that it, they don't totally understand the talent. Does that, does it make sense?

• 51:43Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. He, he had no idea what he had.

• 51:48Billy Corgan?

  I, I think it's weird maybe for them, and I can only say it observationally, cause it's not me.

• 51:54Billy Corgan?

  Cause I've watched musicians do this. They're so good at what they do. It's not, they don't have to sort of figure it out.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:00Billy Corgan?

  It just kind of happens and everyone's like, that's great. And they're kind of like, shouldn't there be more or something, something?

• 52:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:07Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 52:08Speaker 02

  Exactly. That, that was, that was, that's fully him. He, he never, and I think, but.

• 52:15Speaker 02

  In, in. You know, since he's passed and kind of like what you were saying, you know, been watching a bunch of stuff and just. A part of it is, is it was so authentic. He wasn't trying to be a rock star. He wasn't trying to.

• 52:29Billy Corgan?

  No, he was the real deal.

• 52:30Speaker 02

  He was and, and, and, and he just was like, okay, like this is, this is what I feel like I need to do.

• 52:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  But it was, it was like everything that he put his. Heart into like his artwork. I don't know if you've ever seen any of it.

• 52:44Billy Corgan?

  I've only, I've only heard, yeah.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  Phenomenal. Phenomenal. And we'd always be like, dad, come on, like let's do it. You could do an art show like, and he's, no, no. I don't, who's, who wants to see my do, he would just call him his doodles. Who wants to see my doodles? And he's got. Over 3,000 pieces of art.

• 53:02Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like.

• 53:05Billy Corgan?

  You're gonna do something at some point, I would assume.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're gonna, we're figuring it out, which, you know, we kind of also wanna, I don't know, because he never wanted to do anything with it.

• 53:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  And so we're like, but do we, you know, you know, we'll.

• 53:18Billy Corgan?

  Where I would, where I, where I would encourage you as someone as a fan is that

• 53:27Billy Corgan?

  if you really think about it, the songs, the performances, they're really just a vehicle to get to know the person. And then, once a person leaves the planet, we have the one blessing in that is we have the ability to look now and say, okay, what's the body of work? And I think in your dad's case, and you even see it with the extension of the Birmingham exhibit about, about his life.

• 53:52Billy Corgan?

  And the incredible interest now and people wanting to come to Birmingham and sort of, I guess you call it Sabbath tourism or something, but it's rooted around your father, but this idea that they want to know more about him, that is ultimately about him.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:05Billy Corgan?

  And I think that's sort of the beauty in it. So I, I would at least say it from the standpoint of

• 54:12Billy Corgan?

  if there's more, people are gonna want more because they're fascinated.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 54:15Billy Corgan?

  That's not a bad thing.

• 54:16Speaker 02

  No, yeah, and we, you know, we'd like, do we do a coffee table book? Do we do an actual show like? But that's some, that's some, that's some, some wild pieces.

• 54:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I, I thought to ask you this question, I'm not sure how to frame it, but it goes something like this.

• 54:33Billy Corgan?

  You know, you, you, you get, you get brought here right in the middle of the story. You know, a lot's happened before you and a lot happened after you showed up. And I remember seeing after your father passed, there's this beautiful clip of where he's on stage with you and he's talking to you about, this is where I do my job. You know, it's such a beautiful moment because I've had those moments with my kids too, and it really, it really touched me. And of course, knowing you, it touched me even more, but. I guess what I want to say is it's not as simple as yes, there's the glory and yes, there's the fame and yes, there's the beautiful houses. But there's also the cost and

• 55:11Billy Corgan?

  I'm not saying rock and roll shorten your dad's life or anything like that, but I'm saying is, are you okay? As the son, are you okay with the cost of of of of his gig? And what he put himself through, or if you had it to do over again, would you want it to go a different way?

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Uh, I it was.

• 55:31Speaker 02

  Of I mean, of course, I would still want my father here, but it was it was perfect. It's what he wanted.

• 55:37Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 55:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, and there were so many times we were like, cancel the show. They right up until a few weeks before.

• 55:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, you're talking about the last.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, the last show. Yeah. And um. And I I. It's what he wanted. It's how he.

• 55:58Speaker 02

  You know? Then there may have been a subconscious plan here. We don't know.

• 56:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah, you have to wonder.

• 56:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:05Billy Corgan?

  There is a belief in some spiritual circles that on some deeper, obviously not conscious level, that a person knows they're close to passing.

• 56:13Speaker 02

  Oh, he knew. He knew.

• 56:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:17Billy Corgan?

  That's that's that's a lot to think.

• 56:20Speaker 02

  Uh, a couple, a couple of weeks before he passed.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  Cause I uh. Whenever I was staying with him, I would help, you know, get him into bed at night. It's kind of a funny story. He uh. I took him upstairs and get him ready for bed and he was looking in the mirror. He was brushing his hair and he goes.

• 56:45Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 56:47Speaker 02

  He goes, uh, oh, I'm a. I think I'm gonna cut my hair off. I'm gonna grow a beard. I was like, what? He goes, yeah, I'm not a rock star anymore.

• 57:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:07Speaker 02

  And I think that was him.

• 57:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:12Speaker 02

  Knowing he was hanging it up.

• 57:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:18Speaker 02

  I promptly told him, shut the up. You're always a rock star.

• 57:30Billy Corgan?

  I'm such a Sabbath fan that I just have to ask this because.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  Me too. Don't worry. Giants have it's fan.

• 57:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. What a, what a band.

• 57:40Billy Corgan?

  Obviously I mentioned that he was forever hurt by their firing of him, but

• 57:45Billy Corgan?

  the peacemaking that went on over time.

• 57:49Billy Corgan?

  I just thought it was so beautiful.

• 57:53Billy Corgan?

  Ralph, who you know is Tony's manager, I'm sure.

• 57:59Billy Corgan?

  The, the day before the, the show show, when we were all kind of in, we'd done sound check or whatever. And I was standing there talking to Ralph and, and Ralph said, you know, if you go up to the top of this stadium, the Aston Villa, he said, you can see about a mile away where they all grew up. And so then the next day there was the show and then obviously the, the final act was the band on stage. They were all together.

• 58:24Billy Corgan?

  And I remember thinking like, wow, to take this journey, full circle, to end in peace. The four of them together, this, this incredible journey, the music that they made in their hometown. I don't know. I'm just talking, but it's not really a question. It was just, it really struck me.

• 58:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:43Billy Corgan?

  That, that

• 58:46Billy Corgan?

  he made his peace with them and they made their peace with him at the end. Did you, did you feel that?

• 58:50Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. A hundred percent. He was, he was, he was so nervous about, you know, making sure that they were happy and everyone was good. Like he, he was very nervous, but he was also really happy about it. Yeah, he was. He was just like, he felt good. You know, and there was a, and there was a, even the night before the show, like, um, you know, there's an interesting, there was always an interesting dynamic between, you know, my dad and Tony and, and not in like a, you know, I'm not revealing anything that people don't know.

• 59:26Billy Corgan?

  Is it like Big Brother really more?

• 59:28Speaker 02

  It was, it was. And during sound check the day before, you know, my dad got really, you know, he, he was sound checking, so he wasn't going to do a, he wasn't going to, going out there with his A game on. He was just making sure everything worked and ran through the set.

• 59:45Speaker 02

  And, you know, and Tony said like, hey, you're singing flat.

• 59:49Speaker 02

  And my dad was-

• 59:49Billy Corgan?

  That was, that would happen. That was, I was watching.

• 59:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, my, my dad was, he was, he got really pissed off. He was upset and,

• 59:57Speaker 02

  and, you know, and I kind of, and my mom was like, oh, you know, dad's. And I was like, no, I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing because out of the forty whatever thousand people at that stadium, the only person in that stadium that could ever say to my dad, hey, do better, was Tony. And I think everyone needs someone like that. And although Tony and my dad's relationship over the years had its times of being contentious and, you know, but there was, it was family. They were brothers, Geezer, Bill, like they are.

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  Closest family that, you know, anyone could ever ask, you know, they've, they've done life together.

• 1:00:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  And, and I actually, I, as I look back on it, I'm like, no, I, I, I think that that was okay to say because they knew it was the last time.

• 1:00:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Speaker 02

  And, and it was like, hey, get out there and everyone needs to like,

• 1:00:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  give it.

• 1:00:50Billy Corgan?

  It's funny because I did a song once with Tony for a solo record of his and you know, I was in a studio with him for six days. So we got to talking a lot about Sabbath and of course your dad. And it was funny because, um, what struck me, uh, and again, you can only get these insights if you're with the actual person in private and you're talking calmly about these things like we are here, you know?

• 1:01:14Billy Corgan?

  What really struck me was

• 1:01:17Billy Corgan?

  I'm not saying he underestimated your dad, but I think he was as surprised by your dad's success as anybody.

• 1:01:23Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 1:01:24Billy Corgan?

  That he, he, he had this guy right there and, and he thought, oh, this is not working. And obviously they parted ways. And then when your dad went on at greater heights and greater heights and greater heights, there was almost this like, how did my little brother kind of climb that ladder?

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:41Billy Corgan?

  And so when I, when I got to know Tony in the nineties and then the two thousands, that, that sort of surprise, it turned to sort of almost admiration.

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:50Billy Corgan?

  Like, wow, he really did it.

• 1:01:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:52Billy Corgan?

  Like.

• 1:01:52Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:01:53Billy Corgan?

  And there was a, there's a beauty in that. There's almost like a sort of a Greek, not tragedy, but there's a story there where the older brother doesn't recognize the younger guy. The younger guy's almost got to go off on his own and kind of prove it, prove, prove himself to the family or prove himself to the older brother. And that's the kind of the personal side that maybe fans miss. They see the, they see all the pictures and the, and the big riffs, but they don't understand that's really the personal relationships that so defined the band. And I want to bring up one thing because it still makes me laugh. And, um, you know, they get to the end, I think Geezer brings out the cake. And in the most Sabbath thing ever, they don't know what to do.

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:02:31Billy Corgan?

  There's no, there's no picture. There's no.

• 1:02:33Speaker 02

  There's no bow.

• 1:02:34Billy Corgan?

  What am I supposed to do with the cake?

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was funny. I, I spoke to.

• 1:02:39Billy Corgan?

  Nobody thought how to end this thing.

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  They, they did not rehearse a bow. They, no one asked, no one said, okay. And when the final song's done, here's what we get. Cause everyone was just so like, is this gonna happen? And yeah.

• 1:02:54Billy Corgan?

  But it's so Sabbath, right?

• 1:02:55Speaker 02

  So Sabbath. And my dad was just like, that you can, there's, there's footage and you can see him mouthing, say, get me off the fucking stage.

• 1:03:03Billy Corgan?

  There's this, there's some clip of your dad. He turns.

• 1:03:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  But it's, yeah, it was, it was funny. Like, and even Geezer, he even said, he's like, oh, I just, I didn't think, I just, you know, I just thought it'd be nice to give him a cake.

• 1:03:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:17Speaker 02

  But very Sabbath, very Sabbath of them.

• 1:03:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:20Speaker 02

  One nice little thing to share with you is, um.

• 1:03:23Billy Corgan?

  When they were sound checking, I didn't know why your dad left the stage. I know he only came out saying one song and then he took off, but you know, while they were still fiddling around before they started, he looked down and he saw me and somebody else that he knew. And he kind of looked down like this and he gave us one of the, anyway, I looked around, there was, there was two people and me and the other guy watching the band rehearse. So that's forever in my heart.

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  I think the sound check for me was my favorite part. No one was there.

• 1:03:52Billy Corgan?

  I thought.

• 1:03:53Speaker 02

  It was maybe what 30 people out there?

• 1:03:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it was basically friends and family, right? So I feel blessed and that your dad gave me that as a, as a way to say goodbye.

• 1:04:02Speaker 02

  You know, he wanted to come do this, your podcast.

• 1:04:05Billy Corgan?

  Oh, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I was talking about it with your mom.

• 1:04:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. He said he was, he was really, he was like, ah, you know, because he would, he would watch your podcast.

• 1:04:13Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my God, I didn't know that.

• 1:04:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. After mum, after mum did it, he watched it and then he kind of, he went down the rabbit hole, was watching a bunch of your podcasts.

• 1:04:20Billy Corgan?

  Oh, God bless.

• 1:04:21Speaker 02

  He was like, I really want to go do Bill's podcast.

• 1:04:23Billy Corgan?

  I mean, it would have been a dream because, I mean, I could talk to him for 80 hours. I have so much to ask. So back to you. Thank you for indulging me in all that stuff.

• 1:04:36Billy Corgan?

  Talk a bit about finding your own life and your own groove and because, you know, this town is littered with people in your circumstance, famous parent, little too much bread. You know, maybe attention that they didn't earn themselves, but at some point it's theirs because they're in the TV show or they're standing next to somebody on a red carpet. I'm so impressed that you've, because I've known you literally since you're 12 years old or something.

• 1:05:00Speaker 02

  I still, I still have those books you gave me, by the way, for my 13th birthday. Yeah, I still have them. Thank you.

• 1:05:06Billy Corgan?

  Those good times. I'm so impressed that you've sort of made your own way.

• 1:05:14Speaker 02

  Thank you. Yeah, I just, I don't know. I, growing up here, you see, as you said.

• 1:05:19Billy Corgan?

  You see a lot.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  You see a lot. You know, there's a lot of kids that.

• 1:05:22Billy Corgan?

  There's a lot we can't talk about.

• 1:05:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And there's a lot of kids that just, you know, they.

• 1:05:27Billy Corgan?

  It's a shame. A lot of kids with opportunity, talent.

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And I don't know, for me, I just, I, I. I see it all as like a, an adventure and I just, I wanna have a great adventure.

• 1:05:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:39Speaker 02

  And for me, sitting around and just dick it off in LA or in London on my, just on my parents dime. That's not a fun adventure.

• 1:05:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:48Speaker 02

  Like, I wanna go and like, I, you know, I love to work hard. I love to, you know, get done and um. I, I just get a lot, a lot out of it and I'm always trying to like, you know, all right, what's next? Let's do this, let's do that and.

• 1:06:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:03Speaker 02

  Um, just because I, I don't know, I get that from my mom. I just can't sit still.

• 1:06:07Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:06:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, and I, you know, and I never did it consciously of like, oh, I'm gonna kind of carve my own path. I just, I did it. Out of joy. It was like.

• 1:06:19Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:21Billy Corgan?

  What's the, is there an aspiration, a wish? You're still a young man. Like, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's another step up the ladder look like?

• 1:06:28Speaker 02

  Man, so we are, we're working on my dad's movie right now and I'm one of the producers on it.

• 1:06:32Billy Corgan?

  A biopic?

• 1:06:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're doing it, yeah, doing it at Sony Studios. Um, and I'm just, I'm really kinda in the trenches with that and it's funny, it's. Out of all the team assembled on it with these amazing producers and, you know, and directors and act whatever. I'm like the least qualified, but everyone just comes to me. I'm like the middle man for everyone because if they need questions from my mom or if my mom needs questions for them. So it's kind of, I've, I've found myself in this position where it's like, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm the middle man with it all. And I'm really enjoying the experience and just learning about it and, you know, movies are, uh, they're different. It's a, it's a, it's a different.

• 1:07:12Billy Corgan?

  Animal.

• 1:07:12Speaker 02

  Different animal and it's very, um, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's very like artiste.

• 1:07:19Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:19Speaker 02

  And, uh.

• 1:07:20Billy Corgan?

  Has it been, it's been announced, I assume, or?

• 1:07:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it was announced that we were doing it with Sony Pictures. We haven't done, you know, the, announced the, the cast yet or, you know, or, cause we haven't.

• 1:07:31Billy Corgan?

  Is there any talk yet about like the period or is it a whole life or?

• 1:07:35Speaker 02

  It, um, well, initially it was gonna go from kind of my dad as a young man to the kind of mid nineties. But we're gonna, we're shrinking it down. We're doing a rewrite right now and, um.

• 1:07:47Billy Corgan?

  Cause that's a lot of life to get into, into a two hour movie.

• 1:07:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, like in, if, if I, in my perfect vision of it, it would be kind of.

• 1:07:58Billy Corgan?

  You know, tail end of Sabbath, him going solo. Um, and you know, and to kind of.

• 1:08:04Speaker 02

  Because that's just.

• 1:08:05Billy Corgan?

  Got to have the love story.

• 1:08:06Speaker 02

  You got to have the love story and that's and that's the kind of the main focus. You know, of of of the film and, you know, all the craziness that happened in the early eighties and, you know, Randy's tragic death.

• 1:08:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  But yeah, it's kind of more, it's an origin, it's an origin story.

• 1:08:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Wow, I hadn't thought about him doing, not him doing a movie, but a do movie about his life.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:29Billy Corgan?

  Um.

• 1:08:39Billy Corgan?

  It's been explored, but I I still want to hear it from you. Uh, obviously Sabbath went in way too late to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. And those things have been off disgusting culture, but your your dad getting in as a solo artist, it seemed to really like, it seemed to really strike him like.

• 1:08:57Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Oh, yeah, that was a, yeah, he he was really chuffed about that.

• 1:09:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, he he really, um, because like I said, self-worth, right? He he never.

• 1:09:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that's why I was trying to, it seems to me that I didn't ever thought about it that way, but I certainly made note of the fact that it seemed to to mean more to him.

• 1:09:17Speaker 02

  Majorly and and and I think he was like, oh, cool, like they.

• 1:09:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:22Speaker 02

  I'm I'm worthy of it.

• 1:09:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:24Speaker 02

  And yeah, he really massively appreciated and really, I mean, he killed him that he couldn't perform.

• 1:09:29Billy Corgan?

  Oh, that must have just been.

• 1:09:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, but there is, there is a during sound check, he did sing Mama, I'm Coming Home.

• 1:09:37Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:38Billy Corgan?

  Oh, that's cool.

• 1:09:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:40Billy Corgan?

  Um.

• 1:09:45Billy Corgan?

  Much has been made of of the ATV accident where he gets hurt and and I mean, on a scale of one to 10, was it as serious as as as it?

• 1:09:53Speaker 02

  It was actually probably more serious than than it really was publicized. Um, because he'd flatlined like two, two times, I think.

• 1:10:02Billy Corgan?

  Were you there at the time?

• 1:10:03Speaker 02

  I was not, no, I was in LA.

• 1:10:06Billy Corgan?

  That's got to be a horrible call to get.

• 1:10:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, but they they, I was working and they kept it quiet, they they were downplaying it to me. It wasn't until two weeks later that I went to England.

• 1:10:16Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  And did I realize like, oh, wait, like. Dude's been in a coma on a ventilator like what? Um, yeah, they, they kind of, they kept it, kept it quiet because they, they knew I had to finish this, this

• 1:10:28Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I see.

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  project I was working on and they didn't want me to

• 1:10:31Billy Corgan?

  Oh, right.

• 1:10:31Speaker 02

  bail on it.

• 1:10:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Speaker 02

  Um, but it was, yeah, it was really serious and you know, truth be told, that's kind of where his decline started. You know, it was when he took the fall seven years ago. It essentially broke everything that they repaired from the motorcycle accident.

• 1:10:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  Um, and caused, you know, the, all the rods and pins he had in him were causing that like erosion of his cervical spine. Yeah. And so when he fell, it just, everything just.

• 1:11:04Billy Corgan?

  Cause there was that whole period where like a tour would be announced and then it would be postponed and then it would be, oh, we have to postpone it again. There was a lot of that.

• 1:11:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:12Billy Corgan?

  Um, we don't have to get into all the particulars on that, but I mean, it seems to me psychologically, that must've been really hard on him.

• 1:11:20Speaker 02

  It was. And, and the reason why they didn't just outright cancel it is because it was like, hey, that's the carrot. Like, it give you like, get, get in a physio, like, you know, but they just, the first surgery he had after the fall, like, him and then COVID hit and it was just, everything just shut down and I, he just didn't go back to the doctor to be like, hey, this isn't working. Like everything's still, and I'm still in pain and it just,

• 1:11:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  it, it just dragged it out.

• 1:11:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then it was just, and then Parkinson's started getting worse. And, and I think a lot of that came from uh, him not being able to physically train as much as he used to, because he was like a workout freak.

• 1:12:02Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know that.

• 1:12:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so he, um, and I think once that stopped, he couldn't do it because of the spine injury.

• 1:12:10Billy Corgan?

  So it truly was a Herculean effort to get him on stage for this kind of one

• 1:12:16Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:12:16Billy Corgan?

  last performance.

• 1:12:17Speaker 02

  Big time, big time. It was like, yeah. Yeah. It was, it was move heaven and earth to make it happen.

• 1:12:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:24Speaker 02

  And every time, like I said, there was so many times where he was like, I can't do it, can't do it. And we'd, he'd sit down with everyone to be like, all right, we're going to pull the show. And then he'd sit there and he'd be like, no, I can't pull the show. I gotta do it.

• 1:12:37Speaker 02

  He'd be like, you just called everyone here to cancel it. And you sure? And he's like, no, no, I'm going to do it.

• 1:12:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, there was this moment where we were all in rehearsal at Aston Villa and they said, okay, everybody's going to get together to take pictures, you know? And so everybody's in there and it's like, you know, you and you know, everybody, it's the who's who, it's Metallica, Ross is yelling at everybody, you know, it's, we're all in there. Zack and the whole crew. And then I don't know who it was, somebody from your dad's world comes and says, look, he's going to come in, he's in a wheelchair. Don't any of you take out a phone. Don't do this to us.

• 1:13:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:16Billy Corgan?

  Like, let's not play this game.

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:20Billy Corgan?

  And so he comes in and, you know, if you haven't seen him, he's, he's in a wheelchair, you know? So there's that kind of still that goes over the room like, is he going to be okay? You know? And, uh, and thankfully, God bless everyone, no one, no one's taking a picture. So it's like, that was a private moment for everybody there. And then he gets in the throne and we're all, you know, and then Ross starts yelling at people as Ross Palfin, our friend does.

• 1:13:48Speaker 02

  He's good at yelling at people.

• 1:13:49Billy Corgan?

  And I, and I turned to Tony Iommi and I said, you know, we've been being yelled at by Ross for like decades. This is crazy, right? And so there's this, but there's this vibe because a lot of energy's on your dad. And then your dad starts having a go at Ross. And then it was like, everybody goes, oh, Oz is fine.

• 1:14:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:07Billy Corgan?

  Cause as soon as they started hearing, running his mouth and dropping F bombs, they're like, okay, we're good.

• 1:14:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:11Billy Corgan?

  Gig's gonna go.

• 1:14:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:12Billy Corgan?

  So that's an interesting memory, right?

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, he was, and that was, that was the thing, like, he was still very, very sharp, very with it, you know?

• 1:14:19Billy Corgan?

  Once he started going, you're like, oh, there he is.

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:22Billy Corgan?

  And that, you know, the funny thing with the, with the wheelchair was, were you at the after party when he decided to go? See, it's funny you mention that because, um, I had some friends who needed a ride back. It was one of those types of situations and somebody said, you should stay for the after party. And I thought, there's no way he's coming out here. So I split because I just thought, he's going to be in the back with you guys and having a family moment. He's not going to come out here with all these people. And of course I find out later he came out and.

• 1:14:53Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, because we were sat there in the dressing room and he's like, oh, I want to go to the after party. And we're like, what? Yeah, I was like, Dad, the only way if we got to put you in the chat and he's like, okay, let's go. I'm like, okay. And he just, I think after the show, he was just kind of like, cool, like, um, like, hey, this is how I got to get around.

• 1:15:12Billy Corgan?

  I missed it. I'm still kicking myself.

• 1:15:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Like, if this is how I got to get around, I'll get around.

• 1:15:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So I know it's this short window between this last show and his passing, but at least give us one snapshot. He's happy, he's, he's content, he's, he's done it, he's, he's good.

• 1:15:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was, um, yeah, he was, he was really taken aback by all the outpouring of love after the show.

• 1:15:39Billy Corgan?

  It was insane.

• 1:15:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. All the videos and it was the first time that he'd, because during, during COVID, he got on social media. Cause he was, he was kind of, you know, he was, he was couch bound.

• 1:15:50Billy Corgan?

  Just that thought alone.

• 1:15:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. So he had Instagram, he had TikTok, he had YouTube and, you know, he had his phone, his iPad and, and so he started seeing all this stuff on, online and all this stuff posting and all these articles and everything. And he was like, wow, like he'd never experienced that kind of instant feedback before. Usually, you know, you'd wait a couple of days for a review in a magazine or a newspaper and, and all this kind of, you know, the stuff fans were posting at bands and he just was like beaming and he was like, oh. And then he, uh, I, I remember I came in one morning, uh, and, you know, there's like the Sunday newspapers had all done like the reviews of it and, and I was showing them to him.

• 1:16:33Speaker 02

  He goes, well, a lot of good this does me. I've retired. Like me and the joke of like, yeah, well, big, you know, big deal. Um, but he was great. Yeah. He was, um, he really was, uh, he was in good spirits. Yeah. None of, and none of us were like, this is imminent. Like, he was, he was trucking along.

• 1:16:53Billy Corgan?

  Cause I had a lot of people ask me, did you see anything that would tell you that he was close to the end of his life? And I said, no, he seemed, no, actually all right. I mean, he was in a wheelchair, but his spirit was.

• 1:17:03Speaker 02

  And even the day of, like my mom talked about it on a podcast. So it's like, I'm not, not, I'm not, I'm, you know, revealing any family secrets. But he, he woke up, went downstairs, made some breakfast, had a cup of coffee and yeah, that was it.

• 1:17:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so it's, it, it wasn't.

• 1:17:22Speaker 02

  And and I'm grateful for that. It wasn't this like horrible, like slow, slow, cause Parkinson's when it it it's a it's a it's a slow.

• 1:17:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:32Speaker 02

  A slow departure and it's horrible.

• 1:17:33Billy Corgan?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:34Speaker 02

  And and so there is a level of gratitude for the fact that there was zero suffering.

• 1:17:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:40Speaker 02

  It's just like. Had his good morning, you know, you're watching videos on YouTube and.

• 1:17:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah. So last thing, um. And I think it's worth illustrating, uh. And you talk about with the movie, well, now you're in the you're in this other business now, which is the the business of the estate and and.

• 1:18:03Billy Corgan?

  What responsibility do you feel now? Because you you know, you you you've got to carry on the family.

• 1:18:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Including for your own children.

• 1:18:10Speaker 02

  Sure. Yeah, it's it's it's very strange. It's a very strange thing to kind of go, okay, well, what does this look like moving forward? Like who? What? How is this all gonna work?

• 1:18:21Billy Corgan?

  It's, I mean, I got this sense. I think when your mom sat down in that chair and talked to me, I she was aware that the health issue was probably greater than. People like me in the public knew.

• 1:18:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:33Billy Corgan?

  So she was hinting that they were both kind of headed for retirement.

• 1:18:36Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:37Billy Corgan?

  But I also got the sense that she's kind of at a point in her life where she doesn't want to be so intensely involved in the business side.

• 1:18:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, you know, we're we're figuring out, okay, well, what does this look like? And, you know, what responsibilities are people gonna have? And, you know, and and things like that. And just. Just trying to, yeah, figure it out. But it's such a weird thing to do while you're still kind of.

• 1:18:58Billy Corgan?

  Mourning.

• 1:18:58Speaker 02

  Mourning and processing and like, okay, well, what does? You know, what's the next year look like? Five years, 10 years, like what what's, you know, is is, you know, and ultimately it comes out of my mom, you know, she's the boss. She gets to call the shots and I'm just trying to be as supportive and loving and. Hey, you know, whatever you need, I'm here to help and, you know, can I take this off your hands and that? And, um, and so, yeah, you know, we're, we're just trying to figure it all out. You know, I think, you know, everyone has this, you know, oh, you see, you know, what the Beatles did with like selling off everything for billions and this and that. And I just, I don't, my dad didn't want to do that, you know? There was, there was plenty of offers that came in about, you know, selling your publishing and master and all that. And he was like, no, I don't want to do that.

• 1:19:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I would say it to you privately, and I would say it to you right here. I think it's too soon to make that call because I think your dad's true value as an artist and as an icon is, is still undervalued. And I think the show and the reaction to the show is, is a clear indication that there's a lot more there. And so it seems to make sense to me from a strictly business point of view, that you would want to sort of take your time on all that.

• 1:20:09Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. Yeah, there's no, we're not rushing anything.

• 1:20:11Billy Corgan?

  Because there's the responsibility and there's the business side of it, you know? Those people that want you to sell, of course, they'll make their argument. They're going to take it to new heights and do all this. But I think the family, especially your family, is uniquely positioned to understand the true value of your father's legacy. And that's a, that's something that takes time to unwind. I think for the artists that were involved in the final show, I think we all knew that this was important. And in a weird kind of way, that belief and faith is what translated out to the public. You know what I mean?

• 1:20:42Speaker 02

  What was your favorite moment of doing the show?

• 1:20:44Billy Corgan?

  Well, two things, you know, for me personally, to, to stand on a stage and, and honor your father and the band, knowing how much the band has given me as, as, as somebody who grew up in a basement, you know, somewhere and, and needed music like Sabbath to make me believe in something, anything, is very powerful. It, it's a rare moment in music that you feel this sense of a full circle. And, and, and, and to be part of honoring your father's legacy was really valuable to me. A lot of people ask me after the math, like, oh, did you see him? And you talked to him?

• 1:21:27Billy Corgan?

  Everybody was in his space and I said, I just wanted to give him his space. Just being there, that was, that was enough for me, you know? I didn't need two minutes with your dad to tell a joke or something. I didn't need that. I, I, I got what I needed just by being there. As far as the show itself, I thought Youngblood's performance was jaw dropping.

• 1:21:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:46Billy Corgan?

  I mean, I was watching it from the side up on top there and I thought, people are going to remember this thing right here.

• 1:21:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:53Billy Corgan?

  But the real thing I take away from the show, besides the most obvious thing, which is honoring the band and your dad, was, was the sense of everybody, for once, it, it, it sounds like a complaint, but it isn't. It's almost more of like a hippie thing. Everybody working together in a common cause. It was such a beautiful day.

• 1:22:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, it really was.

• 1:22:14Billy Corgan?

  Perfect. When you see, when you see a band that's the size of Metallica, doing a 40 minute set and G and R doing a 35 minute set and Tool doing a 20 minute set.

• 1:22:23Speaker 02

  And letting it be filmed.

• 1:22:25Billy Corgan?

  Well, that too.

• 1:22:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:26Billy Corgan?

  That too. I'll stay out of that one. But the point is, is to see such great artists move in one direction. You see the power of rock music in full display.

• 1:22:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:38Billy Corgan?

  And, um, and if that's your, your dad's final public act, well, he kinda, he kinda went out doing what he believed in.

• 1:22:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:46Billy Corgan?

  Which is, it's about the people and it's about us sort of bringing that to the people.

• 1:22:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:51Billy Corgan?

  And that power beats pop music every time.

• 1:22:54Speaker 02

  Oh, 1,000%.

• 1:22:56Billy Corgan?

  And I wish, by and large, rock music as a business would get its head out of its own rear sometimes because you see the power in that community is so much more than who's up and who's down and who's on the bill.

• 1:23:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:10Billy Corgan?

  And unfortunately, because pop music is so based on integrity, sometimes those things get in the way when, when the pop artists who are sociopathic will just do whatever to get attention.

• 1:23:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:20Billy Corgan?

  And, um, but we always have examples, like your father said, you can crack through, you can reach people where they live. And, and again, he did it with humility, not with ego, which is kind of interesting, right?

• 1:23:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And, and the authenticity, you know, that's, you can always tell when someone's faking it.

• 1:23:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:39Speaker 02

  You know, and then that's, uh, no, no one was faking it that day, which was great.

• 1:23:45Billy Corgan?

  Beautiful day.

• 1:23:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was great.

• 1:23:46Billy Corgan?

  Glad you were there.

• 1:23:47Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:23:48Billy Corgan?

  Thank you.

• 1:23:48Speaker 02

  Thanks.