Rick Springfield | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan welcomes Grammy‑winner Rick Springfield for an unfiltered tour through five decades of reinvention: the bubble‑gum‑pink days in the Aussie psych outfit Zoot to Rick’s audacious spin on “Eleanor Rigby,” the labyrinth of visa nightmares and fine‑print contracts that nearly derailed him, his detour into acting that stretched from The Six Million Dollar Man cameos to his star‑making turn as Dr. Noah Drake on General Hospital. Springfield also recounts the marathon climb of “Jessie’s Girl,” the Working Class Dog era, and the brutal mental‑health reset that saved his career and his life. If you or a loved one are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please call or text the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline at 988. You can also text HOME to 741741 to connect with a Crisis Counselor. These services are free, confidential, and available 24/7 Subscribe to the Magnificent Others YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO?sub_confirmation=1 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:09Speaker 01

  We've gotten in a lot of fights just because, well, we were cute and we wore pink. So that's all you needed.

• 1:15Billy Corgan?

  You're aware, like, this moment doesn't last.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  No, I was very aware. And I could do it.

• 1:20Billy Corgan?

  It's not like you just get off a train and like, hey, I'll get back on this train in a year from now. You know that train's gonna be long on the track. And, and, and by the way, and I don't know where you were, there's also the predatory part of the music business where they don't care what you're going through. You know? Go talk to this radio guy, go do this interview, because they need you to keep.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  Yep. They need you to keep, uh, producing.

• 1:43Billy Corgan?

  I want to talk about Zoot. How do I know, not know about Zoot? I went on my Zoot deep dive, and I was shocked. Cause I'm, I'm, I love kinda psychedelic rock and, and I'm listening, I'm like, how have I never heard of Zoot? It was really good.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wish, it was, uh, it was a teen band that I joined after they'd had like some pop hits, you know? And then Led Zethlum was on the horizon. And because I'm a guitar player, I said, you know, dude, we gotta change this thing.

• 2:16Billy Corgan?

  Do you still have the White SG?

• 2:17Speaker 01

  I do. I, I, I do. It's, I had-

• 2:20Billy Corgan?

  That guitar sounds good.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  It's amazing. I use that on, I still use it.

• 2:24Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. I bought, that was my first good guitar, cause usually- Um, you know, when you're young and you you wanna trade up, uh, get a better guitar, you gotta sell the one you have, right?

• 2:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  But that one was the first American guitar I had, cuz I grew up in Australia and England. But when I was looking for guitars, I was in Australia, and you couldn't get Gibson or Fender. It was just a out of.

• 2:47Billy Corgan?

  What was what was the common brand in Australia then?

• 2:50Speaker 01

  Uh, we had the German ones, Hoffner, we had, um.

• 2:53Billy Corgan?

  Framus?

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Framus. My first guitar was a Framus.

• 2:55Billy Corgan?

  See.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:56Billy Corgan?

  Um.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  Hot Framus Hollywood.

• 2:58Billy Corgan?

  So, yeah, so I, you know, I'm doing my research on you, and I see this band Zoot. And it was like, think, think, think pink, think Zoot.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was a teen thing.

• 3:08Billy Corgan?

  And you and you guys all wore pink, right?

• 3:10Speaker 01

  It was horrible, dude.

• 3:11Billy Corgan?

  And now, at some point, you burned the pink outfits on television, is that true?

• 3:15Speaker 01

  You have dived deep. Uh, yeah, it was.

• 3:19Billy Corgan?

  I couldn't find footage of the burning of the pink outfits.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  I know. Yeah, it was, uh, uh, we got into so many fights backstage, cuz there was no security back in the sixties, you know?

• 3:28Billy Corgan?

  So people would just wander back and say dumb.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  The guys would wander back and just start swinging, you know, and we'd, um, yeah, I said, we gotta get rid of the pink. So what we'll do is we'll, you'd take a photo of us naked looking over our shoulders, but we'll burn it. So, you know, I'd have original pink suits, but we'll, you know, high contrast it, so you can't really see. Of course, they printed it, you know, in full color, and my mom went, oh, my God, Richard. But it was the, it was a good transition, you know?

• 3:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Shocker.

• 3:57Billy Corgan?

  Cool story. So, uh, I was texting today with Sean Lennon, dropping a name, but I was texting with him, and I said I was gonna interview you, and, uh, and I was talking about Zoot. And I, and he, and he said, he was in this really cool band that I've never heard of. And I said, oh, by the way, they covered Eleanor Rigby. And like five minutes later, he's like, this is great.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  That is so wild.

• 4:20Billy Corgan?

  You guys are a really good band. I'm shocked because I'm a bit of a, you know, I like 60s snob. I like a lot of that music. So the fact that I never heard the band was shocking to me.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, we, we, uh, we had, uh, got some interest over here from EMI, but we had a manager that was scared to lose us. So he said, you're not out of your contract. You can't sign. So, um, it was a, they call it like the, a super group in reverse because I came over here and had a career. The bass player formed Little River Band. The singer went on to become a big TV star in Australia. So we kind of went our different directions and did other things when we, you know, been given a lot of, because of, especially to the pink thing. But I can't, I arranged this version of Eleanor Rigby thinking, how would Hendrix play Eleanor Rigby, you know?

• 5:09Billy Corgan?

  And, uh, cause when it goes to the other part, it goes to this kind of weird, almost dissonant kind of riff.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude, uh, which I'd never heard Black Sabbath at that point. And my, a couple of my band members have heard it. And I said, that's very Black Sabbath. And I said, I'd never heard Black Sabbath at that point. But it is the devil's interval, you know?

• 5:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  And, uh, yeah, so I made, I arranged this thing just for us to play live because I wanted something to, to, to really punch a bit. And it was, they've started playing the, the live version and it became a hit on the radio. And it was.

• 5:41Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Stuff that would never happen now.

• 5:43Billy Corgan?

  So, you know, it's hard sometimes, and I have, unfortunately, I haven't read your book yet. I really want to read your book. I've been reading research. I've made a lot of money off of being dark, so the dark's not a problem over here. But the, the reason I'm asking is because I, I'm a little unclear on the order. Did somebody start seeing that you had a solo career opportunity on your own? Or did that come after the band broke up? Or how, how, what was that progression?

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, Zoot was, uh, we broke up in 70 and I had this, uh, I was going to join another band. I always saw myself as a guitar player in a band. I love playing guitar and I didn't really think I had much of a voice. So I, and I'd started writing in, in Zoot, uh, and record, they're recording my songs. So I was very interested in writing. But there was this one woman who was a radio, uh, was a TV, um, sorry, a magazine writer. And she was very hot on me being a solo artist. So she kept pushing me and pushing me. And I finally, uh, I've got a song here. I'll record it. And it became a hit. And then I started thinking about.

• 6:47Billy Corgan?

  What was the name of the song?

• 6:48Speaker 01

  It's called Speak to the Sky.

• 6:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, Speak to the Sky.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  It's a country kind of, you know.

• 6:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but it was that kind of time, Mongo Jerry.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. It was absolutely.

• 6:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's got a little of that.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. We were doing heavy stuff in the zoot by that point and my mom, God bless her, said, why don't you, why don't you write a nice song?

• 7:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  So I wrote that. And my dad had gotten very sick at that point. And it was kind of a song to him, you know, about praying that things are okay back, you know, when we all believed and all that, I guess.

• 7:17Billy Corgan?

  Hopefully, we still believe.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:19Billy Corgan?

  Um, so you end up doing a record in London?

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. I got a deal with, actually, I was trying to get to America and it was so friggin hard. I, I couldn't get in. They wouldn't let me in, right? I'm just writing myself. And then I said, well, maybe I'll go to Canada and sneak over the border. And they wouldn't take me. So I said, maybe I'll go to Mexico and sneak over the border that way. And I couldn't get in. And finally, there was this guy whose records I used to buy when I was a kid, an Australian artist called Robbie G, had hooked up with Steve Bender, who was the director of the Elvis Presley Comeback Special.

• 7:55Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  And Steve saw a photo of me and heard some songs and said, let's bring this guy over. So it was, again, manifestation. I wanted to, I used to see America in the clouds, you know, and I want to go to America. I want to be in America. And so Steve brought me over and got a record deal. It was, you know, the seventies, sign anybody. Got a record deal, went straight to London to Trident Studios and cut a record, my first solo record.

• 8:19Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  With Del Newman, who'd done all the strings for Cat Stevens and

• 8:26Speaker 01

  it was, and Robin Jeffrey Cable, actually, who had been Elton's guy, Mad Men Across the Water, all the first Elton stuff, had been Robin Jeffrey Cable Engineering. He had a terrible car accident and woken up and didn't know who he was. And they said, you've got the number one album, Mad Men Across the Water. And he said, who's Elton John? And he, so he was recuperating, brain damage and everything, came over, came to Trident and recorded my album with me and was just brilliant. I mean, amazing sounds.

• 8:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, this, the tones on the record are really good for a first record.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:00Billy Corgan?

  Especially back then.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:01Billy Corgan?

  But you had a lot to do with that, right? I mean, I'm.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  The sonically, absolutely, yeah.

• 9:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Um. But uh uh but I became very good friends with him and he came over here and and uh I lost touch with him but but he was a very troubled guy because of that. Cause he'd had so much, you know, and then this it had all gone away.

• 9:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I saw some crazy story where there were twin brothers and one lost his memory. And you know, it's like a similar story where he didn't know who he was.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:28Billy Corgan?

  And the guy was like, I'm your twin brother. And I was like, I don't know who you are.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, he uh uh stuff started to come back, but not, you know, he always uh had something there.

• 9:38Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Lovely died on.

• 9:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So how do you end up in America from that? Doing a record for was Columbia?

• 9:45Speaker 01

  Steve was based here. Steve Binder was based here and um of course being, you know, their their company was based here. So I went to London to record, then came back and and just had a two-year battle trying to stay in the country. That's where I met Elvis, actually was on a plane going back to Australia to renew my visa for the fortieth time because uh they wouldn't give me a green card, you know, and we kept, used to take all these magazine articles to the to the um.

• 10:13Billy Corgan?

  Consulate.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they go, no. So so I'm on the plane going back to Australia to renew a visa. And Elvis was there, sitting in the plane. It's the plane's off to Hawaii.

• 10:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  And he does, he before the plane landed, you know, now when you get on a celebrity's like got a hoodie on or glasses and sitting like this. He came back and signed autographs and took photos with everybody. I was in the back of the bus, of course, at that point. And I said, you know, I said, uh, if Steve uh manages me, cause he had a great relationship with Steve over the um over the special.

• 10:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  And Steve had been very encouraging and and said, you can do this, you know, uh Colonel wanted him to be a to be a Christmas special with a you know, an ugly sweater and just horrible sitting. And Steve and and uh the Colonel was very uh angry with Steve for trying to, he felt like he was trying to get Elvis away.

• 11:06Billy Corgan?

  Well, anybody anybody pointing Elvis in the wrong direction as far as.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  So I had a little conversation with him, which was great and hadn't been a fan at that point. Um, I wish I'd taken a photo, you know, because I've seen people from that flight because I already had his blue suit on. I recognized.

• 11:20Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  The look. They took photos with him, but I I had a girlfriend in Australia at the time. So I just said, you just sign this autograph for my girlfriend for. He didn't, of course, customs stole it on the way through. Australian customs, bastards.

• 11:36Billy Corgan?

  I once had a run with Australian Customs because I had forgotten that I had some broccoli in my bag.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Broccoli is, you can't have broccoli in Australia.

• 11:45Billy Corgan?

  The woman said, I can't do an Australian accent to save my life, but she said, you understand this is a very serious offense. You could be fined up to 300 American dollars. I said, it's broccoli.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Sorry, mate.

• 11:57Billy Corgan?

  Exactly.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't bring that in.

• 12:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, exactly. It sounded very much like that.

• 12:05Billy Corgan?

  So you do the second album, your second album, which is Comic Book Heroes.

• 12:12Billy Corgan?

  Cool album. I was listening to some of it today. It didn't quite do what they wanted it to do. Is that accurate?

• 12:19Speaker 01

  It was the only good review I think I've ever gotten in Rolling Stone.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  They said.

• 12:26Billy Corgan?

  Friend of Elvis.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  Yes, it said, it sounds like Teenage David Bowie, they said, was the review of the album, which I, you know, whatever, but I mean, everyone's got, you know, the opinion.

• 12:38Billy Corgan?

  It did have a little bit of a kind of a glam.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I was very into Bowie. I was very into T-Rex and all Slade and all English bands, you know. I miss kind of the, what was America? Was it like, was it getting to the Poco stuff?

• 12:53Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I missed that completely.

• 12:56Billy Corgan?

  Southern, that's a, I don't know what they, I always called it cocaine rock, you know? It just sounded like a lot of people doing a lot of cocaine.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:03Billy Corgan?

  And they had, and they had lost their ears and everything was kind of dull and.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Super, super mellow.

• 13:09Billy Corgan?

  And this is an insider joke, but you know, it was very, what's, what's the word? It's not Neve, it's the API, a lot of API going on, see? I knew you'd get that joke because you're a studio nerd like me.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  That's a very in joke.

• 13:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, right. So, um, yeah, so, because you know, and you know, we're all aware of how people perceive us, you know? You know, I, of course, when you burst out of the world with your success, you know, that's you, that's where you begin in most Americans, but you know, this, this whole kind of rich musical thing. And I knew some of that, but I was listening to it, obviously knowing I was going to talk to you. And it's like, it's very interesting because it's like. If that was your story, you know what I mean? Like, people would be like, oh, check out this guy who.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:55Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean? You'd be, you'd be like something that the indie writers.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  The cult thing.

• 13:59Billy Corgan?

  The cult thing, yeah.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:01Billy Corgan?

  So, is, is that, is, I'm trying to find the right question.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Well.

• 14:06Billy Corgan?

  What, what was your, what was your aspiration at that time?

• 14:09Speaker 01

  I, I, I thought, uh, the whole comic book thing was really hip and, and avant garde and it was viewed as very teen. You know, with the drawings and everything and, but the thing is, I'd been Steven and Robbie. Because I was, I'd come over here and the teen magazines had glommed onto me, right? And I'd never seen a teen magazine. In Australia, there was one magazine called Go Set. And that was it. You know, there was no, like, nothing that catered to the teen. And I came over here, I said, wow, I'm doing a lot of interviews with all these people. And, you know, talking about my music and why I'm over here and. And these stories started to come out, like, is Rick Springfield too tall to love?

• 14:55Billy Corgan?

  Well, the answer's, the answer's yes.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Yes. Certainly from a 14-year-old that they were aiming at, you know, that, I mean, I was.

• 15:03Billy Corgan?

  So you're saying you walked into a business model that you weren't aiming, aiming at.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  And had no concept of it.

• 15:09Billy Corgan?

  What, what, what was the business model you were aiming at?

• 15:12Speaker 01

  I was a singer-songwriter. I thought.

• 15:14Billy Corgan?

  But did you want to be like an Elton John type or did you want to be a rocker type or?

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:18Billy Corgan?

  Or you were just trying to figure out who you were?

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was a guitar, I'm a guitar player.

• 15:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  And I always fronted with the guitar and that was, it was, um. I was still kind of caught up in the, in, I mean. The kind of the softer rock, like, like T-Rex and that kind of thing was what I was aiming at. Um. I kinda left the Zeppelin stuff behind with the Zut and I was focusing on kinda more poppy.

• 15:45Billy Corgan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Stuff. I thought that was my, you know, just what I, I mean, you write what you feel, you know, you know, I, I only ever once wrote a a disco song because I thought I should, you know, and it was horrible. So, but you're right. Just what you feel and that was what I was feeling at the time and the weird thing is it didn't do very well, but that ended up getting me the record deal with RCA. That, that started, you know, my career was a, was a working class dog album. The guy, Ed DeJoy. I went to meet him after I did turned down by pretty much every company in America. And he said, I really like comic book heroes. I went, what? Say what? Where'd that come from?

• 16:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  And so he, he signed me based on that.

• 16:30Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So at the end of the day.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  It was a positive thing.

• 16:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, even though it didn't sort of sequentially line up the way you want it.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:37Billy Corgan?

  So you're in America now. And I know it's not this simple, but you know, suddenly there's, then it's, you're acting. Can you, can you explain to me how you, cause I, I totally get up to the point of like, I'm trying to make it and I'm trying to figure out who I am and the way the music business treats people like us and that whole thing.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:56Billy Corgan?

  But that's suddenly like you're on Six Million Dollar Man.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:00Billy Corgan?

  Was that cause you just needed money or somebody picked you out of a lineup or?

• 17:05Speaker 01

  No, it was, um, my brother had been an actor in Australia.

• 17:08Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  And there was one TV show and he was so good, he'd been on about four times.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  And as a younger brother, you're kinda going,

• 17:17Speaker 01

  I could do that. So I, I, I was between record deals and I was, I'd been poor, you know, pretty much continually since I'd been over here. And I left Steve and Robbie because they would, they kept pushing in this teen direction. And I had a girlfriend at the time who was saying, you know, that's not who you are. You gotta drop them. So I I left them and Robbie sued me for two hundred and fifty, a quarter of a million dollars. Two hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

• 17:48Billy Corgan?

  What was the basis of the, of the suit?

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Uh, that they put money into it and I'd kinda just walked away. Steve was awesome. Steve just.

• 17:55Billy Corgan?

  Was that, was that? Spiritually true or financially true?

• 17:59Speaker 01

  It was that they'd put some money in for sure. Um, but they'd also taken any advance I'd had. I never saw any money. It was just. Um, you know, they pay the rent, stuff like that.

• 18:11Billy Corgan?

  The old school thing where they give you a salary and.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  Exactly. So I I didn't know how much I got to signing with Columbia. I didn't know how much I got for signing with capital. Um, I was signed all the contracts totally without a lawyer in Australia. Clueless.

• 18:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but that's kind of how the I'm not defending, but that's kind of how the business was back then. You're lucky to be here. We got those speeches in the nineties. You're lucky to be here. You know.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  I was.

• 18:37Billy Corgan?

  We can we can easily replace you and.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I was very lucky to be here because it'd been a tough journey trying to get here.

• 18:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Everyone had been going to England from Australia because it's a Commonwealth country and you can get in. It was very difficult to get into America.

• 18:52Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  But, uh. Yeah, so I'm pulling money out of my piggy bank. To go buy a Swanson's Happy Meal and Robbie's gonna sue me for a quarter of a million dollars.

• 19:03Billy Corgan?

  That you don't have.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Oh, and so it was shut things down for quite a while.

• 19:10Billy Corgan?

  Oh, because you were contractually kind of locked up.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, he wouldn't let me. I couldn't tour. I couldn't.

• 19:14Billy Corgan?

  So that explains why you're like, I need another gig.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:17Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  And I met his wife, his ex-wife on the uh walking just down Hollywood Boulevard and she said. Why don't you come to acting class? So I started going to acting class and I loved it. Um, got lucky with a couple of shows and I started to make money. Not, you know, enough to kind of for rent and food and.

• 19:37Billy Corgan?

  I did skip over one small thing that I have to go back to. This is jog your memory. Do you believe you believe in magic?

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Oh, jeez.

• 19:46Billy Corgan?

  Cause I believe I believe that I do. Yes, I can see. I believe that it's magic. If your miss- if your missing is magic, your love will shine through.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 19:55Billy Corgan?

  If there's a, if there's one thing. But I like this song. I wouldn't be doing this to you. I didn't think this is a really cool song. If there's one thing that the world needs, it's a magic singing song. And I'll teach it to the whole world and make them sing along. Love is magic. It's so easy. It's, if it's not, and it's not hard to do, because everybody wants somebody to give a little magic to.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Oh, Jesus hurts.

• 20:17Billy Corgan?

  But that's a good, that's a good song. Now, you did this cartoon.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was another, I, I had a lot of kind of weird sidesteps in my career, uh, at the beginning. And because I'd been on all these teen magazines.

• 20:29Billy Corgan?

  So that was part of them trying to.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, ABC went to all the teen magazines, magazines, who was, uh, nineteen seventy-three, he said, who's gonna be the next David Cassidy? They all said me. Which, thank God it didn't happen. It would have been a very short career. I was actually up for it to replace David Cassidy and the Partridge Family at one point. Which is very strange. And thankfully, that didn't happen either. So they said, and we got together, it was great. We got together with, uh, Disney artists from Fantasia. And they started talking about Yellow Submarine and let's do something really different. And you'll write a song for the every episode. And after it got through the ABC, um, mill, it was just another Xerox piece of shit that was already on. You know, with the same, same funny voices and the same storyline.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  And I was kind of locked into it. And I enjoyed writing the songs, but it was.

• 21:20Billy Corgan?

  Songs are good.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  They're, I wanted them to be real. They were, it was a kid's show, really, you know, so I wrote.

• 21:25Billy Corgan?

  What was the name of the show again? I, I should write it down.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Mission Magic.

• 21:27Billy Corgan?

  Mission Magic, yeah. And there is an album, if you go like on streaming this.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  It's a DVD too.

• 21:32Billy Corgan?

  Is there?

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:33Billy Corgan?

  Are you, are you starring in this series?

• 21:35Speaker 01

  I, and they drew me and I did, uh, it's my old accent. So I'm talking like this, you know, it's a, um, uh, Miss Tickle was, uh, my, uh, the woman who would get me, I was in this magic land, right? And Miss Tickle would look through this mirror with all those stu- students and they'd come through and I'd help them with the bad guy, whatever, you know, it was, well, uh, absolute garbage, but it was, uh, I mean, actually Quentin Tarantino came up to me in a party, said, I loved Mission Magic.

• 22:04Billy Corgan?

  See? You never know who you're touching.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  Probably, that's probably why I was so what, six years old.

• 22:11Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 22:13Billy Corgan?

  Six Million Dollar Man, Hardy Boys Nancy Drew, Wonder Woman.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  Twice.

• 22:19Billy Corgan?

  The early version of Battlestar Galactica was called something different. Rockford Files. It's kind of not a bad resume.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  No, there were some good shows. There was a lot of crap. But the scripts now are so wonderful for TV. And then they were just, you just knew they were gonna be bad, you know, there was the same stories. Very predictable, but I was just pretty excited to work.

• 22:44Billy Corgan?

  Like, you know, you're in this cool band. You go to England, you make a pretty cool record. You come to America, you make another cool record. And then you do the Mission Magic thing, which I kinda got. The songs are good. And then suddenly it's like, he's a TV actor. It was like, it's a little bit like, huh?

• 23:01Speaker 01

  Huh?

• 23:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, so it makes sense. So how did you eventually extricate yourself out of the contractual?

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Um, he finally settled, Robbie finally settled. Luckily, it was just before Working Class Dog, which had, you know, Jesse's girl.

• 23:18Billy Corgan?

  So you were stuck in that thing for that long? Was that four years?

• 23:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was longer than that, actually. And he, he said, I don't think there's, his, his, he had a hundred percent of my writing.

• 23:31Billy Corgan?

  Right. So you don't own any of that stuff then?

• 23:35Speaker 01

  No, I do now.

• 23:36Billy Corgan?

  Oh, you got it all back?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  He came to me and said, it was about to end, but the album was gonna come out. And all those songs would have been a hundred percent hit. So he came to me and said, I don't, I don't hear any hits on this record, so. How about I give you fifty percent of it all back? And we go on for another year and a half or two years or something. I said, yeah. So I ended up with, you know, half of what I should have had a whole lot, but he could have had all of it.

• 24:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  But I ended up with it all after, later on anyway, but you know.

• 24:08Billy Corgan?

  Did you have to fight to get it back?

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little bit, but, but a lot of it was, had run out, you know.

• 24:13Billy Corgan?

  On one of those, yeah.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  And, you know, you grew, but it was, it was just very serendipitous, you know, because.

• 24:22Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's, nineteen eighty-one is an interesting year for you.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Yes, it was.

• 24:26Billy Corgan?

  Uh, you're on General Hospital.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Interesting sidestep again.

• 24:31Billy Corgan?

  Which by the way, I was also watching, which is I there was a girl in my school that that I had the hots for. And

• 24:39Speaker 01

  She was a fan of the show.

• 24:40Billy Corgan?

  She was a fan of the show. So it was a way to get in good graces with her. I started watching the show. So I'd have something to talk to her about.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Did you get hooked or not?

• 24:51Billy Corgan?

  No, no, no. She she eventually uh she she did work at a chocolate shop. So the one advantage was I got a lot of free chocolate. But no, I never got anything more than the chocolate.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:01Billy Corgan?

  So general hospital.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  That age, you probably won wood.

• 25:03Billy Corgan?

  So your album uh Ricking Class Dog, right? Comes out. Your song goes number one. We all know the song. It's been stuck in my head all morning because of the minute you listen to it. It's like it doesn't leave. Uh I saw that they referenced to it said, one of the slowest climbs to a number one song ever. Uh was the fifth biggest song in all of nineteen eighty one, and you won the Grammy for Best Male Rock Performance. It's quite a year.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was. It was uh it was a big surprise. I started a um.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Uh I signed on to the show because RCA, I'd finished the record. And RCA didn't know what to do with it because ballads and disco were still on the radio.

• 25:46Billy Corgan?

  So just because I love to pull these things apart a little bit because it's like like everybody watching knows the song, right? And it's that it's like the Hollywood movie thing. Nobody believes. But we all know how the movie ends. It's a hot happy ending in this regard. So nobody hears that that's going to be a hit song. Like, nobody but nobody.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  No, Keith Keith Olson was the first one to point it. Well, actually. Yeah, uh um Joe Guthrie, who owns Sound City. I was doing the album with the producer myself with Bill Dresser. And um and and Joe, who owns Sound City, went to Keith Olson, who'd. You know, he'd done Foreigner, he'd done Fleetwood Mac, he'd done that.

• 26:26Billy Corgan?

  Big, big producer.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Producer and. He said, would you do two songs with Springfield for this album? And Keith had, on my first album, had been an engineer and his job was to cut out all the clicks for the drop-ins on my first album.

• 26:45Billy Corgan?

  Because in the old days when you would punch in, you'd get a little bit of a click on the track, right?

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he, he cut out all the clicks on that album for, from all the punches. Uh, so we, you know, kind of, kind of knew each other from then, but he said, yeah, I'll do it. Um, let me hear the demo. So I had, I've always done real extensive demos, you know, back with the TAC thirty-three forty, you know, and I had cushions for drums and an old bass that I plugged straight in. And the original Pig Nose, the, the matter of fact, you know, the one they handmade. And then, uh, for Voice Overheim, and I did all my, you know, bounce around and do backgrounds and all that shit. So I took my demos over to Keith and he's listening and I played Jesse's God, you saw it with another song. He goes, that's, that's the one.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  And it had a big, long solo in it because it was still coming out of the seventies, you know, where there were solos.

• 27:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  So I'm playing a solo on it and he's going.

• 27:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  Cut that sucker.

• 27:44Billy Corgan?

  But it's amazing that he heard that.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, he did. And it was, you listen to the demo and it's pretty much the song.

• 27:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  It's all, all the parts are there and everything, but that, and then he brought in Sammy, Sammy Hager's song of I've Done Everything For You. And I'm, oh dude, there's more songs. Cause I was very, I was very confident of this record. I felt like I'd hit.

• 28:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Something three-minute song.

• 28:07Billy Corgan?

  You were right.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, um, but you know, it worked out and, uh, this, I've done everything worked out. It was, it was a hit too, but.

• 28:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Um, but yeah, Keith was the first one to, and, and he said, you don't need General Hospital. I said, I'm gonna take this show because, um, I've had three failed albums. You know, I don't know what's gonna happen. He said, you don't, it's a good album. You don't need to do General Hospital. I said, there won't be any cross, you know, they're all ladies, watch the show. They won't know that there's even a record out. And, uh.

• 28:42Billy Corgan?

  But I was watching.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  No, but then it blew up. So I had no, I thought it was a soap opera. I thought only blue-haired ladies.

• 28:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  And it became the number one show in America.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  And uh, and Gloria Monty, who hired me for the show, came up six weeks later and said, I hear you're also a singer. And I go, I am not singing on this show. I've already, you know, oh, thank you.

• 29:05Billy Corgan?

  Your tea, sir.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  I've already gotten enough crap, you know, cause uh, uh, they used to have AOR stations here and they played Jessie's Girl, cause it was, you know, it was the first kind of, one of the first guitar based songs coming out of disco. And, and ballads, you know, there was Pat Benatar and there was, uh, they were playing ACDC on, uh, on K-Rock, but there wasn't a lot of guitar, you know, there was the Cars, but there wasn't a lot of guitar based stuff and they didn't know what to do with it and they kept holding it and holding it and holding it, which is why I took General Hospital, cause I thought, ah, man, it's gonna be another failed, you know, project. Um, but uh, uh, yeah, so it uh, it worked out.

• 29:43Billy Corgan?

  Crazy. Yeah, because, you know, I remember when that song first came on the radio and I liked it a lot. And I don't normally like music like that. And I was, even when I was a teen, I was a bit of a rock star. I was listening to Sabbath and Queen and

• 30:01Speaker 01

  That's very, that's very pop, although it's guitar based.

• 30:03Billy Corgan?

  But, but, but I remember thinking like, oh, this is cool because it's like what I like about guitar rock. And I know that it's pop, but it doesn't feel like lame and a sellout.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:14Billy Corgan?

  It had the right combination of factors.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does. And that's why I think it's lasted.

• 30:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's, it holds up very well as a song and also as a production.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  Liked it, which is, um,

• 30:29Speaker 01

  I think if I'd done it, it probably would have had heavier guitar. But I think the, where the guitar sits is great.

• 30:36Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's that time, you know, a lot of those records.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  It's very 80s, sure.

• 30:39Billy Corgan?

  Cleaner guitar.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:42Billy Corgan?

  Um, so, okay, so now you're an overnight sensation. Right?

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 30:49Billy Corgan?

  You got a number one song, you're on this massive TV show. Like, where does that all go? And by the way, not to be maudlin about it and all due respect, your father also passed away in 1981. And that's, that's a pretty intense year.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was uh, yin yang for sure.

• 31:05Billy Corgan?

  So where are you at in all this, you know?

• 31:07Speaker 01

  Um, I'm incredibly excited because the song's getting some attention.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  And then my brother calls up and says, uh, you better come home, you know, dad's on his way out. And um, it's still hard for me to talk about.

• 31:26Billy Corgan?

  Well.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  No, it's okay.

• 31:28Billy Corgan?

  To, to, to, to at least be in the, in the, in the room with you. Uh, when my band was massive in ninety six, my mother was dying of cancer and I was in this weird situation where I was touring. And coming home to see my mom as she's withering away. So I, I, I understand the emotion of it all because I, I lived it.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, uh, it's very odd that they, things happen like that, you know?

• 31:54Billy Corgan?

  Life is very interesting, right? It's, it's always a mystery to me how these things kind of, you know, cause that's what I said. In terms of your life, nineteen eighty one is, is, is one for the ages.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I'd done a, um, I'd gone to a party, um, before, uh, before that, just before that started. And had my tarot cards read, which, uh. And the woman said, that is the most amazing reading I've ever done.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  And I always had a lot of confidence in myself.

• 32:25Billy Corgan?

  Did you think she was trying to pick you up?

• 32:26Speaker 01

  No, no, I was had a lot, I've always had a lot of faith in myself, you know, that I, I knew, I wouldn't have stuck it out for ten years in America. When everybody else in Australia would come over and then go home. I knew, I knew if something was gonna happen. And.

• 32:39Billy Corgan?

  Was it just a feeling?

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was a validation. Yeah, okay. Maybe it's gonna start now. I mean, you know, but, uh. Yeah, I've always had, uh, a guy came to me when I was seventeen years old, trying to sell me insurance at home. And introduced me to a book called, uh, um, Think and Grow Rich. Which is by Napoleon Hill, which isn't about necessarily about getting rich. It's about.

• 33:04Billy Corgan?

  Is it a positive part of intention and power, positive power thing?

• 33:08Speaker 01

  Right, but it's also.

• 33:09Billy Corgan?

  Power of positive thinking.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's not just Norman, this appeal, it's, it's very spiritual. He talks very spiritually, um. Um, and, uh, it's, it's a very deep book. It's, the Think and Grow Rich is a bullshit title because it's a really deep book, but it's also a very old speak. It's written in the twenties and I lived by that book. I had, I had. CDs later on, but I had read the book thirty, forty times. And it was just, it told me about visualization, it taught me about visualization, where the only, the only difference between us and the animal. Is that we can visualize a different future for ourselves.

• 33:47Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  And that's what this is about. It's the whole basis of all the Tony Robbins stuff and the secret and all that is all based on

• 33:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, same idea.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Seeing where you want to be and believing it with all of your heart and soul.

• 34:01Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so to follow the thread, if you've manifested this moment, okay, how did you deal with the moment?

• 34:10Speaker 01

  I was

• 34:11Billy Corgan?

  Was it what you hoped it would be?

• 34:12Speaker 01

  I was

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Fuck, took long enough. Seriously, I mean, it was exciting, but it was, oh my God, it was exactly like I thought it would be. You know, the people trying to be your friend and, you know, the girl attention and the excitement and the hearing playing a riff and I used to went and saw the kinks when I was young and

• 34:37Speaker 01

  and everyone lit up and I'm like, God, I'd love to

• 34:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  I'd love to have that riff.

• 34:41Billy Corgan?

  And you've done it. Yeah, there it is. Yeah.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  So that kind of stuff.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  And then, you know, my dad, I went to, my brother called me up that morning and said, Dad's gone.

• 34:54Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  And I had to go to General Hospital. And I said Dad would want me to go. He wouldn't want me to shirk that. So I went.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  And it was brutal. I'd do a scene and I'd go, I didn't tell anybody. I didn't want anyone to know, but and then go off to the corner and I'd cry for a while, you know, and then come back and do the scene and I finally went to the glory and said, my dad died. I gotta go. And she let me off for a couple of days. So I flew home

• 35:34Speaker 01

  that night, you know, and Took care of it and then came back and went back on the show. And it was, it was, I remember flying to Florida um to do some radio thing and a radio guy there still, Scott Shannon still remembers it. He said, it was amazing that you did it. But I was lying on the floor of the plane with my stomach in knots like this. Um, you know, I tried, I pushed it down to try and get on with things. But um.

• 36:04Billy Corgan?

  Is it because, obviously it's your father, but did you have a particularly close relationship?

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, very close.

• 36:10Billy Corgan?

  Was he your hero or?

• 36:12Speaker 01

  He, he was, he didn't understand my music, but mom said he was, would play working class dog on the rec. I sent him an advance copy and he said, this is gonna do it. This one's gonna do it. Cause he, he died twice. He died when he was fifty one from blood loss of an ulcer. And they brought him back, uh, but he'd been out for like fifteen minutes. So he, he came back almost like as a five year old kid, you know? And this is a dad that was in charge, Lieutenant Colonel in the army. Amazing human being. And so, um, so he'd sit, you know, he was kind of childlike toward the last like ten years. And he.

• 36:52Billy Corgan?

  Is it because when he was, when he was dead?

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:55Billy Corgan?

  But he lived. Is it something that would do with his brain or?

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, but we had brain damage. Cause he didn't, he was out, he was dead for like ten minutes. So he got, he had brain damage from lack of oxygen.

• 37:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Um, we didn't know if he'd come back, but he, he didn't, you know, he came back a little, but he was always very young in his, you know, where he lost all his stress lines and, you know, so maybe there was a positive thing to it, but he, I can imagine him sitting in the chair. Yeah, this is gonna be the one.

• 37:24Billy Corgan?

  But it's, I, I'm just trying to understand. And again, I'm saying it from a.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I may, I may be glossing over because of.

• 37:32Billy Corgan?

  No, what I'm saying, what I'm saying is, is, is uh.

• 37:37Billy Corgan?

  Why does, why do you think it still hits you so hard now?

• 37:40Speaker 01

  Because I shoved it down.

• 37:41Billy Corgan?

  Okay, because you didn't deal with it then?

• 37:43Speaker 01

  I didn't deal with it.

• 37:43Billy Corgan?

  Is it because you were so busy and it was like, there's all the shining lights that you always wanted?

• 37:47Speaker 01

  Everything I'd wanted and uh, I felt like God, God was fucking with me, almost. But also felt like I was being taken care of too, I mean uh, um.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was um, it was a very mixed bag in my head and uh, um, yeah, it still really affects me.

• 38:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I get it. God bless. Yeah, because I think what's hard for almost anybody to understand is when you're standing in that moment, in, in, in this case, you're in the zeitgeist, you're on television, your record's being played. And you had put in your ten plus years, you're aware like, this moment doesn't last.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was very aware.

• 38:32Billy Corgan?

  It's not like you just get off a train and like, hey, I'll, I'll get back on this train in a year from now. You know that train's gonna be long on the track. And, and, and by the way, and I don't know where if you were, there's also the predatory part of the music business, but they don't care what you're going through. You know, go talk to this radio guy, go do this interview, because they need you to keep.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Yep, they need you to keep uh, producing, you know?

• 38:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Um, but I did, you know, I, I um, I didn't have any fears about doing a second album, I know sophomore jinx kind of thing, I just launched.

• 39:03Billy Corgan?

  I can't imagine you would at that point, because you, you, you've been through it.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, it was uh, it upsets me that I am still so upset over it. I had wrote a song called My Father's Chair that I still do. And it still affects me, you know, doing it, playing it live.

• 39:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  Sometimes I can just get through it, but other times it still affects me and it's um, you know, part of a a softness in me that I don't love.

• 39:32Billy Corgan?

  Well, there's nothing wrong with that. Um.

• 39:36Billy Corgan?

  You've talked, and again, I've got to read the book, but I know you've talked about mental health issues and stuff. So is, is, explain this to me. Do you feel you've had mental health issues your whole life? Or it was circumstantial, circumstantial?

• 39:53Speaker 01

  No, it's been with me my whole life. I tried to hang myself when I was 16 in my garden shed. And I was failing at everything. All I wanted to do was play guitar, discover guitar when I was 13. And so I was, wasn't, I wasn't that popular with the girls. I was passionate about girls, but it wasn't that popular. I had, I wasn't in the clique at school. I was always on the outside. So mainly, a lot of the problem was that we moved, my dad was in the army. So we moved every two years. I knew that when I'd make friends, I'd be saying bye to them in two years, you know?

• 40:35Speaker 01

  And I had no roots, which is why I've lived in the same house for 40 years now. And we moved to England when I was a kid and I discovered guitars and girls over there. And then three years later, we're back in Australia and it was whipped around from school to school. And so it always left me on the outside.

• 40:53Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  I was never in the clique, you know?

• 40:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  And I also have ADHD, so I lose my track. Help me, help me.

• 41:07Billy Corgan?

  So, under the stress of the moment, did you feel you were handling the? Because again, you're mourning over your father. You're having this intense, you know, singular life experience. I've never had a number one song. You know, I mean, that's a unique experience, you know? I haven't, I mean, I haven't had a number one album.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's not bad.

• 41:32Billy Corgan?

  But what I'm trying to say is, how do you feel you handled that? That sort of period, you know, that eighty-one on period? Because you've had plenty of time to think about it.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I handled it fairly well. I was never. I never turned into a prick, you know, I mean, I was. My dad was great in the army. He was the only, when he retired, is the only officer where enlisted men came to his send off. You know, he was firm, but he was a good, a good human.

• 42:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  And I've always treated my band and crew like that. And on the road, they would always leave other, other tourists to come with me because they knew it was gonna be a fair. They'd be respected and treated well and we'd have fun, you know? So I, I tried to maintain, I not tried, I did maintain that. I took advantage of, you know, the offers, of course, like we all did.

• 42:28Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  You know, when, especially when you're a kid that was never sure how girls felt about you and suddenly they're turning up.

• 42:35Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so you'd resisted being the teen heartthrob, but like, my memory of that time is like, you were definitely like, you know, sex symbol would be the way.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it was a heartthrob thing, I get that.

• 42:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. How did you feel in all that? Did that feel strange to you or?

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's never something I've been like, yeah, I get it, you know, I mean, who does that anyway?

• 42:55Billy Corgan?

  I don't know, but.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  But I, um. I did take advantage of it, obviously, like I said, but it was never something that I was comfortable. I'm never comfortable when people would talk about it. Whether they liked the way I looked, you know, it was a.

• 43:10Billy Corgan?

  Because it was, it was very much in those times about your looks.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:13Billy Corgan?

  You know?

• 43:14Speaker 01

  And it was annoying, really, a lot of the time. I mean, Louis said to me. You, you would have been bigger if you weren't so good looking or something like that, you know. But I, I get what he's saying.

• 43:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I get it.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  The Peter Frampton thing, you know, where he was so cute that a lot of people kind of, when the second album came out, they went, well.

• 43:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, uh, uh, that's it. My perspective is probably way off, but.

• 43:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I don't know, but it it's, I mean, we live in such a different time now.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 43:44Billy Corgan?

  The media then was different, but if you were able to break through with that media in those times, and you were typecast, for lack of a better way to put it, like, the cool thing for me as a fan was, is I liked your music, so I didn't care what anybody thought about your looks.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Musicians are like that, though. I mean, honestly.

• 44:01Billy Corgan?

  I'm sure you meet them. Like, you were, we were talking before we started the interview about Dave Grohl, like,

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:05Billy Corgan?

  Real musicians like your music because you're really good. So it's like, you know, you being cute doesn't mean anything to us.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. And, and, and, you know, we're not afraid to say, oh, I like this band. I like this song.

• 44:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Because we understand it on a, you know, another level and how difficult it is to do something like.

• 44:22Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  Um.

• 44:24Billy Corgan?

  And, and, and, and to be overly clear about it, I mean, you were writing and producing your records, like, you weren't some creation.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  Right. And I think a lot of people thought I was because I came out, they, to them, I came out of the soap opera. And AOR stations, you know, back in the day.

• 44:40Billy Corgan?

  Remember John Travolta, who had a recording career at one point? There was a lot of that, the guy from Dukes of Ha- Dukes of Hazzard.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:47Billy Corgan?

  Remember he had a John Schneider?

• 44:48Speaker 01

  John Schneider, yeah.

• 44:49Billy Corgan?

  Who else were you saying?

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Bruce Willis had a record. Um, Don Johnson.

• 44:54Billy Corgan?

  That's true.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, so, and, and, and they actually, my, I forged a type of, uh, person they look for in soaps, from then on, a, a guy who could sing as well, which is where Ricky Martin, they got Ricky Martin.

• 45:11Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  And a, a couple of other.

• 45:13Billy Corgan?

  Because it became like a marketing.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  Became a model, you know?

• 45:15Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Uh, but it was purely by accident.

• 45:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  But, um,

• 45:21Speaker 01

  yeah, I was talking about the suicide thing. That, that was kind of very messed up because, uh, I was serious, you know, and I, and it's always on my shoulder. I, uh, it's weird, um, just some dark part of me that I just can't, I have to deal with, you know, it's just something, uh.

• 45:38Billy Corgan?

  Do you feel you've navigated it at this point in your life?

• 45:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, I, I could, I slip back sometimes.

• 45:45Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  Um, but it's, I feel like it's always there, but.

• 45:50Billy Corgan?

  Is there, is there a thought attached to the thing that plagues you?

• 45:54Speaker 01

  Um.

• 45:54Billy Corgan?

  Like, you know, some people say, I'm not good enough.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's worthless.

• 45:57Billy Corgan?

  Unworthiness.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's worthlessness.

• 45:59Billy Corgan?

  So a lack of self-worth.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:01Billy Corgan?

  Where do you think that comes from?

• 46:02Speaker 01

  Um.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  I probably um just

• 46:12Speaker 01

  growing up where I grew up.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  And I was always, like I said, I was always the outsider. I grew up in an army group, you know, where my parents' friends were going, what's wrong with Richard? Why are you letting him play guitar? Everyone else was going into service jobs, you know? Always felt like the black sheep.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Um, but the main, the main thing that, that triggered the, the suicide attempt was just I was failing. I was failing in school. I discovered the guitar. All I wanted to do was stay home and play guitar. Uh, I was kicked out of 11th grade because I was, wasn't attending school. I wasn't popular. I wasn't successful with girls. Um, and every arena that I was, everyone was being successful in. I wasn't good at, that good at sports.

• 47:06Billy Corgan?

  You know, I, I've spent enough time in Australia. It's a tough culture.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Yes, it is a very tough.

• 47:12Billy Corgan?

  It can be very, um.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Tall poppy syndrome. You get big enough, boom, they'll cut you.

• 47:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And, you know, obviously there's a lot of kind of comparative culture between UK and Australia for obvious reasons. But for some reason, Australian culture feels even a little bit more harsh.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  It is.

• 47:31Billy Corgan?

  And then that's, that's me as an outsider, and I love Australia.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  So do I.

• 47:35Billy Corgan?

  I love playing there. The people are great to me. But when you're there, there's a certain tone that's sometimes, as it was an American where we kind of fake nice.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:43Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean?

• 47:43Speaker 01

  How lo- how long it's been, mate? It's two, when's the tour? I'll be gone, I'm after it, right?

• 47:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, it was, it was difficult. It was a bully state for me. Um, I was always getting, we were always getting picked on. Every time we'd go to a dance, it'd be, we'd, we'd have to fight our way out, you know? Uh, there's, there's, um, it's the only place I've ever been where in the bathrooms, all the pubs, there's, if your mate gets into a fight, this is what you do. You know, there's just, it's, it's the nature. I mean, I was over there. I've never toured as a solo artist over there, which is very.

• 48:16Billy Corgan?

  Wait, wait, wait, stop. Hit the brakes, what?

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, uh, cause we do a world tour and we'd end up in Japan. And by the time we're done, I, I'll go, I just wanna go home. I couldn't, you know, and so I never toured. I did one thing, a countdown spectacular where, you know, you get on, you go on and you do three songs. And that was like ten, fifteen years ago. And almost, I got a couple of flights sent.

• 48:41Billy Corgan?

  Were your records successful there?

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:43Billy Corgan?

  So there was a demand for you to go there?

• 48:45Speaker 01

  What's that?

• 48:46Billy Corgan?

  There was a demand for you to go.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, they, they were, um, yeah, they, we actually had a tour booked. And I got the Meryl Streep movie, the Ricky and the Flash. So I canceled it and I. There was a lot of people upset over that, too. I'm kind of viewed, I, I. I don't know if, um, I think I viewed as an ex Pat there, ex Patriot, you know?

• 49:09Billy Corgan?

  The guy who left.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have an accent, you know, which I picked up because of acting. I didn't wanna have to worry about the accent, because I, I would hear. English or Australian people that weren't very good at the act, American accent. And I thought it would mess with me while in front of. Get, you know.

• 49:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Relate to the part. So I just learned the accent and then living amongst the people, it became a natural thing. First time I went back to Australia, I was in a club and. I'm going, ah, how you going, mate? I, yeah, I'm, I'm good. I'm just over here for a couple of weeks. He goes. You with your own people now, mate. You don't need to talk like that.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  So it was, I think.

• 49:47Billy Corgan?

  Welcome home. Welcome home.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, welcome home, fucker.

• 49:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, right? So, uh.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  And I do love Australia. I, I have friends there. Um, and I, and I, I love the country. I miss the country very much.

• 50:03Billy Corgan?

  You got married?

• 50:05Speaker 01

  In Australia.

• 50:06Billy Corgan?

  Okay, there. See, that was the, you gave me the segue I was looking for. Uh, another, another interesting year. You got married and that same year you did Hard to Hold. Which kind of starts your movie, your movie thing. I know you're not a big fan of the movie. I believe you call it a piece of

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Yes, that is probably when I read the original script, I threw it across the room that this is garbage.

• 50:30Billy Corgan?

  Before we jump into how much you hate the movie, um, was the cell job, hey, you've built yourself up. Now we can transition you over to this movie career.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  No, I wanted to do movies. I saw myself as an, I see myself as an actor musician. It's the same, uh, comes from the same place. It's just a different skill set.

• 50:47Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  And, and I

• 50:49Billy Corgan?

  So nobody was pushing you towards it.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no. I wanted very much to do it. I, I left General Hospital to pursue a movie career and to have more time to tour.

• 50:58Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  So yeah, absolutely. It was, uh, no, it wasn't pushed. It was just, it was a bad choice of movie. Um, I thought, you know, and, uh, uh, I thought, but I was at the point where I said, I can, I can make this work.

• 51:12Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  You know, the point where you get to where you think, okay.

• 51:15Billy Corgan?

  From the New York Times.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 51:18Billy Corgan?

  Dripping sweat with the backstage lights glinting off his jeweled belt and his single earring. James Roberts escapes to his dressing room collapsing beside the space invaders machine. He's drained. He's exhausted. He's a very famous rock star and he has just whipped another adoring audience into a lather. Hard to Hold is a movie for anyone who thinks this sounds like real behind the scenes, rock and roll ambience. And for anyone who thinks Rick Springfield is a real rock star.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 51:47Billy Corgan?

  I thought, wow, that's interesting.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:51Billy Corgan?

  So. You know, because again, it's trying to understand the nuance of you're standing in these spots at particular times. Of course, with hindsight being 2020, we can say, oh, you should have done that. You should have done that. But if it was me and somebody came along and said, I am willing to back you in a real Hollywood movie.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I was, uh, it, it looked like kind of the right thing, you know, um, I did.

• 52:16Billy Corgan?

  Peter Frampton in, in, uh, the Sergeant Pepper movie. That didn't exactly.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Well, they're not actors, you know, I mean, I, I, I, I consider myself an actor. I'm, I'm better now than I was then, but I was better, I was a fairly seasoned actor at that point.

• 52:31Billy Corgan?

  Had you had, had you had any, any acting training?

• 52:34Speaker 01

  What's that?

• 52:34Billy Corgan?

  Did you ever have acting training?

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I, I was in a, a class for like four years.

• 52:39Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  Before I even went out to try.

• 52:40Billy Corgan?

  I just didn't know if you were like a savant who was just good at a bunch of stuff.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Well, but honestly, the class was, a lot of the classes are bull, they really are, a lot of it's really just about, you know, being, being there and, and, and they give, the classes give you all this mental bull.

• 52:57Billy Corgan?

  What's method acting and all that stuff?

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Oh, no, method's great. I mean, method is really, you, you take time and, and sit with it and imagine all this stuff is happening. And when, you know, you ever been driving along the road and you just get an angry thought and you start thinking about it and suddenly you're pushing the accelerator? That's, that's method acting. That's, nothing's really happening other than up here.

• 53:17Billy Corgan?

  I see, yeah.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  So you, you create all this stuff inside you. That's, that's what method acting is, but there are other schools where they, they, they try and put it on paper and you gotta have a goal and, and you're trying to think this while you're trying to talk to somebody and it's just bull.

• 53:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  So it's almost like you have to unlearn a lot of the stuff you learn initially.

• 53:38Billy Corgan?

  I have to jump past this.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  I'm not watching Merle Street.

• 53:41Billy Corgan?

  Loving review.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  Was an acting class.

• 53:43Billy Corgan?

  I bet. So,

• 53:47Billy Corgan?

  explain this part to me, cause I only saw a note somewhere about it. Takes a mental health break, nineteen eighty-five, is that, is that accurate?

• 53:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:54Billy Corgan?

  So, cause in, again, big record, follow-up did, in your estimation, good? The follow-up record to the,

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:04Billy Corgan?

  The big record, right?

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I.

• 54:06Billy Corgan?

  Music career is great.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:08Billy Corgan?

  TV show, now you're doing movies, so why do you, why do you say, I need to stop?

• 54:13Speaker 01

  Because I, I'd moved to Malibu and I had this big, beautiful Spanish house.

• 54:18Billy Corgan?

  And you're married and you got.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  And I got married to the woman I really wanted to marry. I just had a kid and.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  It was what I thought I had wanted. And there was, and there was one afternoon, I was walking around the pool. And I felt just as low as I've ever felt. And I realized at that point that this wasn't going to heal me. Because I'd always thought all along, yeah, hit records, fame, money. I'll, I'll, I'll be more than I am, I'll be better. But after the initial, you know, rise, it was still me and still me and my. And that's, that's.

• 55:05Billy Corgan?

  What was it because? I'm trying to find the right words is it's, it's, it's, it wasn't what you wanted. It didn't fix the problems.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  No, it was what I wanted, very much what I wanted. But I thought that it would fix the problem with me.

• 55:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  It might, what was happening inside.

• 55:22Billy Corgan?

  So it was magical thinking.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:23Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I.

• 55:24Billy Corgan?

  If this thing happens, all this other stuff will get solved.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  You know, which we, I mean. You know, why we get divorced and marry somebody else is because we think it's all going to change.

• 55:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  It doesn't change.

• 55:35Billy Corgan?

  I learned that lesson too.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 55:37Billy Corgan?

  Um, so when you stop, are you just, are you just in Malibu looking at the ocean thinking? What do I do now or?

• 55:46Speaker 01

  I found a therapist, Jungian therapist who'd learned from Carl Jung. He'd got, he'd been a doctor. And he'd seen all these patients dying and doctors covering stuff up. And he said, this is not the way I want to live. He's a very successful doctor. He lived in Beverly Hills, Mercedes, kids in great schools. Suddenly cut it all off and went to Zurich with his wife. And learned under Carl Jung. And he was amazing.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  I started to see him, I saw him for about five years.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  And it didn't heal me, but it doesn't heal you. But you you start to name the demons that are chasing you.

• 56:28Billy Corgan?

  So what what were the points of existential crisis?

• 56:33Speaker 01

  Initially, it's self-worth. I just felt just so worthless. I felt like I didn't. This wasn't. What I had was bull. What I gained was was meaningless. It wasn't.

• 56:46Billy Corgan?

  It wasn't because of the work that you had done and you you felt embarrassed or something. It was you hadn't gotten out of it what you thought you were.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I I felt like I wasn't I wasn't worthy of it. It was luck. It was just, you know, and now I'm almost like look like a he said one I went in one day. He said, you look like a homeless person. And I did. I had like a scraggly beard and I looked like my hair had washed and I just I didn't. You know, I was just I went down way down. And I had to because I was so depressed. I remember watching myself on

• 57:28Speaker 01

  on an MTV interview where I, you know, just played a big arena thing and I'm she's interviewing me and I'm sitting there like this. Yeah.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  The fuck is that all about? You know, to see it like that, it was. So I pulled the plug, you know, and I just.

• 57:47Billy Corgan?

  Were you getting pressure? I mean, you tell, you know, I know how the business works. You tell your manager or whatever, hey, I'm gonna. Were they like, do they think you'd need to take time or they were like?

• 57:55Speaker 01

  No, they they were nervous about it, you know, they they start saying, give us one more year, you know?

• 58:02Billy Corgan?

  One more year of driving yourself insane. Now you can take a break.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I said, no, I can't. I gotta do this now because there's nowhere for me to go, you know? And it may seem kind of melodramatic, but it was really.

• 58:15Billy Corgan?

  Have sorry to interrupt you, but having experienced, I I totally get it. I I just I don't know you, but I totally get it.

• 58:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:24Billy Corgan?

  I totally get it.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  And and people would, you know.

• 58:27Billy Corgan?

  You probably wouldn't be here if you hadn't stopped.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  Exactly. I I I know that for sure.

• 58:32Billy Corgan?

  See, that's the that's the salient point.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:34Billy Corgan?

  Live to fight another day, you know, something we say in this culture.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  Retreat, gather, and go.

• 58:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  And I, you know, people would would go with, they'd go, why are you depressed? Why you look at, you know?

• 58:47Billy Corgan?

  You got the world on a string and everything should be so great.

• 58:51Speaker 01

  They didn't understand that it's it's still me getting up in the morning and looking at myself and going.

• 58:58Billy Corgan?

  See, that's why that's such a powerful message. And I've done some interviews about mental health stuff, similar dynamics, is for people to hear that success doesn't solve those problems.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  Success is a lie. It's something we must, you know, as human beings, we must achieve. You know, we must, there's all that thing, leave your mark, you know, leave a legacy.

• 59:29Billy Corgan?

  Well, it's even at the root of procreation, right?

• 59:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:32Billy Corgan?

  I want to leave.

• 59:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 59:35Billy Corgan?

  I wanted to leave the let the family go on past me.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  Right, right. And then you have daughters.

• 59:39Billy Corgan?

  Or some form of huber.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  And your name doesn't exist anymore.

• 59:44Billy Corgan?

  Well said. Um, so obviously jumping around, but just trying to make the points. No albums between eighty eight and ninety seven.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. I I I wrote an album, actually, out of my therapy sessions called Rock of Life. It was basically about my first son. And how it shook me, you know, and changed me. And and that's that's actually one of my favorite albums because it had had one hit off it, but it didn't really do much.

• 1:00:22Billy Corgan?

  But when did that come out in the?

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  Eighty eight, I think it was.

• 1:00:25Billy Corgan?

  So that was your that was the last album you did before you're like, you know?

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  No, I I took I did therapy eighty five to like eighty eight. And then started writing because of the therapy.

• 1:00:35Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  And then did that album and then took more time off. But then I got an acting gig that was a TV series called High Tide.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  That was with a guy I'm still friends with, a Canadian who actually is is on the eighteenth season in a show called Murdoch Mysteries. And we played brothers, surf brothers, that were also cops.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  And we went to New Zealand to shoot the first season.

• 1:01:02Billy Corgan?

  Is this a, is this a Down Under bass series?

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:05Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  No, no, it's a worldwide series, but only if you're an insomniac or a night watchman.

• 1:01:11Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  They played, it was like big in Brazil, it was big in Germany and and it was like three o'clock in the morning in, in, in America. But it was work and it was fun. The scripts were pretty good. It was Tim Munier, who actually is now in charge of American Horror Stories.

• 1:01:28Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  So it was, uh, the initial scripts were good and we were excited about it and it was, we thought it'd be, might be a big hit. And then we did a second season in San Diego and then a third season here in, uh,

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  uh, you know, Oxnard and what's that up there?

• 1:01:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  Um, and then a folder and that kind of took all my time.

• 1:01:51Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  And you didn't know where I was.

• 1:01:53Billy Corgan?

  But so, did you make a conscious decision to stop doing music or you just got busy and you went?

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  I got busy. I got busy doing.

• 1:01:59Billy Corgan?

  Cause you know what? If you look at it on paper, it seems like, okay, he takes a mental health break. Yeah, right. I mean, it's unusual, you know?

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  I felt like I was kind of being, being active, you know, I was in a career that I enjoyed.

• 1:02:12Billy Corgan?

  But when people would ask you, why aren't you doing music or when's the next record? What would you say?

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  I just said, I'm, I'm working right now.

• 1:02:20Billy Corgan?

  So you didn't feel you'd abandoned music?

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  No, I didn't. I was writing all the time.

• 1:02:24Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  And, um, I never stopped writing. I mean, I do, you know, I, I binge write. I, I will write for three months and then won't write for six months, that kind of thing. I'm not the nine to five guy or write every day kind of guy. But, um, I, I, you know, I was getting paid well when it's a successful show in certain areas. I felt like I was, you know, still pursuing a path, not, not the main path, but I was still on a path.

• 1:02:52Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  Um, but I knew I'd get back to music eventually and that's, you know, really what happened.

• 1:03:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's just, it's, it's, how can I put it?

• 1:03:05Billy Corgan?

  Your arc is very unusual, you know what I mean? Because you came in as a guitar player. You get dragged into pop land, you know? Then you go through this whole thing where you've got to kind of figure it out. You get in a contractual squabble. You end up being an actor and successful, right? And then it all kind of, it all converges at the same time.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:28Billy Corgan?

  And, and within seven years of it all converging, you know, your dream of music is kind of set aside. And again, I understand your explanation. I'm not arguing. It's just, it seems odd in considering the arc. It's very unusual.

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  It is an unusual path for sure.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  And I, I can't really explain it other than I've always just

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  looked at what's in front of me and decided, yeah, I'll do that or no, I won't do that. I, I'm not the, although I, you know, talk about manifestation, that it's end result that I manifest. It's not, it's not the steps to those end result.

• 1:04:08Billy Corgan?

  So, um,

• 1:04:13Billy Corgan?

  I'm curious. You know how this culture works. It's like, if my, my, my joke, my joke is I walk through the airport and, and people go, hey, are you the rat in the cage guy?

• 1:04:27Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:29Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  The identifier.

• 1:04:30Billy Corgan?

  And I've done plenty, and so have you, but you, there's that guy in the airport that's like, hey,

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Jesse girl.

• 1:04:37Billy Corgan?

  How's Jesse doing?

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  No, it's, yeah.

• 1:04:39Billy Corgan?

  You've heard it all.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:40Billy Corgan?

  So how have you, how have you, uh, navigated? I mean, it seems fairly balanced from the outside. I mean, you've stayed working, released a ton of music. You just have a new song out that I just listened to.

• 1:04:55Billy Corgan?

  So how have you balanced all that? I mean, has it been tough for you to navigate, let's call it the public version of your reality versus your actual reality?

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  Not really, because I have a very, um,

• 1:05:08Speaker 01

  I think I have a fairly accurate view of the public's idea of me, you know?

• 1:05:12Billy Corgan?

  Does that not bother you? You know what I mean? But is like, is that, is there anything you feel like you need to correct or amend or?

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  I'm I'm not big on the legacy thing, you know, all that kind of thing. I just uh I've I've been through a had a lot of, you know, when I first Jesse's girl first came out, I got a lot of crap from, you know, critics hated me. And so I'm used to all that kind of thing, and it doesn't bother me. And and and so someone's odd opinion, I understand. It's they got their life right here, and they just want to need a box to put these people in so that they don't need to think about it too hard, you know? And then pick the obvious identifier. Um, the thing that they first first heard, you know, that identified you with them. And that's they're comfortable with that.

• 1:06:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  So I I don't uh, you know, this like have a new record out and you go on a talk show and they play Jesse's girl. I'm going play the new record.

• 1:06:14Billy Corgan?

  By the way, I I I love the new record, Lose Myself.

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  Lose Myself, yeah.

• 1:06:19Billy Corgan?

  Great. I was like,

• 1:06:22Billy Corgan?

  I I mean, it sounds like

• 1:06:25Billy Corgan?

  like a twenty five year old guy having a great song.

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks.

• 1:06:30Billy Corgan?

  Very youthful, you know, but not purposely. So it's like it's just in you.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:35Billy Corgan?

  It comes out in your music. So I was very impressed by that. Although I do have to laugh because I'm thinking, okay, so the the most famous song of yours is about you being obsessed about this girl. So back to the lyrics. Uh, you're the perfect drug at the imperfect time. Before you crashed in my life, I was doing fine. I fall into you and everything fades away. You burn, you burn through the world I knew. Now I want to stay. And I want to lose myself, and I'm gonna lose myself. I should be past this shit. But it still turns me on.

• 1:07:08Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:07:10Billy Corgan?

  So you're still here.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I, you know.

• 1:07:14Billy Corgan?

  I think it's great.

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  Just being truthful, you know, it's like. I mean, I'm seventy five and you think, well, you should maybe you should be have more of a view, you know, a better view. But I'm, you know, there's still a stuff still.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  I still have to, you know, pick up a guitar and strut around.

• 1:07:32Billy Corgan?

  But it's, but I'm saying it's in your music. I hear it.

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:36Billy Corgan?

  You know, I guess what I, I guess what I'm after, if, if it's like a meta arc, you know? Cause every interview is almost just like trying to create its own little movie. Like here's the beginning, here's Milan. So, you know, America has a way of categorizing people and saying, oh, he does that, she does that. And I think you've repeatedly kind of broken this image, but it doesn't seem something you're trying to do. It's just a, it's a, it's a result of just who you are.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:05Billy Corgan?

  Most people would be calculated about it.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  I know, it's never been calculated.

• 1:08:09Billy Corgan?

  That's what I'm saying. That's what's sort of refreshing about you and our mutual friend. You know, he told me that about you and that's why he wanted me to talk to you because he's, he thought I would find that refreshing and I do because, you know, success in America, as you know, it's, it's a very singular thing and we've both been blessed enough to have success in America. It really is, you know, it's the, it's the, it's the top of the hill as far as if you want to have success. So, um, and there's been a lot written and a lot, uh, sort of broken down about how should, uh, you know, some snobby critic at the New York Times view people like us? If we don't sort of fit into their perfect little model of value?

• 1:08:55Billy Corgan?

  And I think what's interesting about streaming services and stuff like that is they're, they're changing the idea of value.

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  How do you mean?

• 1:09:02Billy Corgan?

  Well, people, if they like music, they just find it.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:06Billy Corgan?

  So my first reaction when I heard your, your song Lose Yourself was I added it to my master playlist. I was like, I love this song. Boom. It doesn't matter.

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  Who or?

• 1:09:16Billy Corgan?

  If I, if I, if I found that song from you from eighty-two or twenty twenty-four, I'm just adding it to this playlist. Cause I was like, this is a great song. I want to hear it again.

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I do that too. Yeah.

• 1:09:25Billy Corgan?

  Right. So that's what I'm saying. We're living in this world of shifting value. No, people outside us will no longer be able to define what our value is. So I think that's kind of cool. And I think you're a great testament of that.

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. I get, I get what you're saying.

• 1:09:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. It's like, it's like, uh, guitar player to guitar player, because I'm a guitar player first too. It's like, Once you're a guitar player, you never stop being a guitar player, right? And music has taken us all over the world and done all this crazy stuff.

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  I sometimes look at the piece of wood with six wires.

• 1:09:57Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's why I want to know if you stop the white SG, right?

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:00Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, right.

• 1:10:01Billy Corgan?

  So that's kind of what I'm trying to say is I think it's cool that you've just done it. You've just done it your way and the world's kind of swung back to you in its own time.

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't, I mean, I think everybody who's successful are certainly from, you know, like, I'm not sure about now with all the game shows and all that shit happening, but we come up through, you know, the clubs and the ranks and.

• 1:10:28Billy Corgan?

  Yes, musicians first, right?

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  And we learn and we, you know, take the knocks and, I mean, I would play in places in Australia where I had to turn the guitar around like a club and beat people off the stage because they were fired. And that, you know, some of these people that come up now, they have no idea of, and I don't know if they're, I mean, it doesn't matter because they're, you know, there's some great songs out there, but you find out, you find your roots and who you are musically, I think, coming up that way. Coming up the slow way through the clubs and all that kind of thing. Maybe it's an old view, but that's how you form, who you are and what you want to write about and what you find important.

• 1:11:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So last thing, how do you, how do you, our mutual friend, he was talking about seeing you live and he was talking about where you did the song about your father's, my father's chair.

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  My father's chair, yeah.

• 1:11:25Billy Corgan?

  And he said it was a very emotional moment.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  He's very hooked into his dad too.

• 1:11:30Billy Corgan?

  Sure, but he was expressing how emotional it was for him to hear you do this song live and he knows what that song means to you. And he said he was getting annoyed because there's people going, you know, hey, take, you know, come over.

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  When you're gonna play Jesse's girl?

• 1:11:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that, whatever, you don't understand this, the simplicity of what I'm after.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, it's, you know, I've been through a bit of that, but, I mean, I, I think of, you know, being in a club in Florida in 1976 with my then band and playing a song and there were, there's two people sitting there and there was one over there. Finished the song and nobody clapped. And I went, guess you guys didn't like that song, eh? So, I mean, compared to that.

• 1:12:14Billy Corgan?

  Here's another.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  I'm okay with someone, you know, I, I, I get pissed off at times, you know, and I've actually kinda said, okay, this song's for you motherfuckers who were talking through my dad's song and, you know, but uh.

• 1:12:28Billy Corgan?

  So you, you reminded me of being in a club in nineteen eighty-eight. And the people were all the way over there at the bar, about eight people. And they were paying no attention, they were paying no attention to us and they were just talking because they were trying to pick each other up or drink their beers. And I remember thinking, I never wanna be in a place where they can talk over the band again. And so at the next rehearsal, I said, for now on, we will never stop playing. And so we were in the habit where we would play and then we would just feed back between songs.

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  Just go from songs to songs.

• 1:13:00Billy Corgan?

  So they couldn't talk.

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  That's great. So I, I play loud, turn it up to eleven.

• 1:13:06Billy Corgan?

  Absolutely.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:08Billy Corgan?

  All right, last nerd question.

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:10Billy Corgan?

  Okay, what amps were you playing back in, in, in those days? In the, in the, it was Zoot.

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  In Zoot, I had a thing called an M and R, which was a, an Australian made amp. We had, you know, like I said, the American stuff was very expensive. So, you know, the local guys would build stuff. I had an M and R.

• 1:13:28Billy Corgan?

  Never heard of an M and R.

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  No, no. Fair, fair, you know.

• 1:13:31Billy Corgan?

  Good sound, though.

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  With good reason, but uh, but I had my, you know, my Gibson was my, my SGA was my first good guitar. Um, and actually, in the, um, I used mainly, um, uh, Marshalls, you know? Um, we had a horrible moment where we used PV, solid states that didn't break up and they were just painful as hell, but uh.

• 1:13:55Billy Corgan?

  Synthetic fuzz.

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  What's that?

• 1:13:57Billy Corgan?

  It's synthetic fuzz.

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:59Billy Corgan?

  That's, you know, it's just like fuzz.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:01Billy Corgan?

  It's a, it's, it's, it's a drawn wave.

• 1:14:05Billy Corgan?

  The sound of Lynyrd Skynyrd, though.

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  What's that?

• 1:14:07Billy Corgan?

  That's the sound of Lynyrd Skynyrd. All three, all three guys played PVs.

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 1:14:12Billy Corgan?

  Next time you hear Sweet Home Alabama, that's PV.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:14:15Billy Corgan?

  That's the sound.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  Well, kudos to them for making it sound good. I couldn't get it to sound good. Um, and then, uh, uh, yeah, I just used Marshalls and had for a while had a, an old, um, harmonizer between two N.

• 1:14:32Billy Corgan?

  Oh, you did.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  And dial it down, you know, to get a thicker sound. That's what I used on Working Class.

• 1:14:36Billy Corgan?

  Okay, last question. Existential union question. If you had it to do over again, would you do it the same?

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I'd probably want to do it differently. Why would I even do it the same?

• 1:14:48Billy Corgan?

  I don't know. I'm mad, that's why I'm asking.

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I'd.

• 1:14:50Billy Corgan?

  What would you change?

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  Um, I thought.

• 1:14:53Billy Corgan?

  Because you had a pretty cool life.

• 1:14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:54Billy Corgan?

  But it hasn't been easy at every step along the way.

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  Um, I've made a lot of good choices. I've made some bad choices, uh, um, personally, you know, in my life. Um, uh, I, I would, uh, I would probably, um, I'd probably tour the world more.

• 1:15:14Billy Corgan?

  Australia.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would.

• 1:15:17Billy Corgan?

  They're waiting.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  But yeah, I, I mean, no, I mean, I, I'm, I'm not satisfied because I think satisfied, if you're satisfied, then you retire and you die.

• 1:15:25Billy Corgan?

  That's done, yeah.

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  I still have drive. I still have, uh, you know, things I want to achieve, mountains I want to climb, all that kind of thing, with songs I want to write that are better. And, uh, you know, and I'd better just do more of what I love to do, basically. Um, and, but, uh, yeah, there's, there'd be some things I'd change, but if I could nitpick, I'd, sure, I'd be freaking perfect.

• 1:15:49Billy Corgan?

  Nothing major?

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  Nah, well, I made a couple of major things.

• 1:15:53Billy Corgan?

  Would you still do the, uh, is it hard to hold?

• 1:15:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I'd probably, you know what? I was, I was up for, um, the right stuff and I, and I turned that down going, I turned down going to, to check, to, you know, read for that because I got hard to hold. So I'd probably go, you know what? I'm going to read for the right stuff in Cardo.

• 1:16:13Billy Corgan?

  All right. Thank you. Thank you, Rick.