Dale Bozzio | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

In this lively and revealing conversation, Billy Corgan sits down with Dale Bozzio, lead singer of the hightly influential 1980s band Missing Person, to explore the remarkable journey that shaped her creative life. Dale candidly traces her start as a fearless spirit raised in Boston, recalling how Frank Zappa discovered her, encouraged her bold vocal style, and effectively jumpstarted her career. She reflects on her near-fatal accident, time spent as a Playboy Bunny, her relationships with boundary-pushing figures like Prince, navigating a male-dominated industry and her fierce determination to stay true to her own artistic voice rather than conform to what others expected. Watch The Magnificent Others on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

  I'm not the original anybody, because first of all, I came before Lady Gaga, so I don't know how I could be the original lady anybody, you know, number one, okay? So, let's get real here.

• 0:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  I am who I am today because of Frank Zappa. That is the truth.

• 0:48Billy Corgan?

  Did you like being a Playboy bunny?

• 0:50Speaker 01

  I did. And I was a Billiards bunny. I shot pool.

• 0:54Billy Corgan?

  And how's your pool?

• 0:55Speaker 01

  Superior.

• 0:58Speaker 01

  I passed out in 76 and woke up in 77. You gotta remember, I fell 40 feet over a window.

• 1:04Billy Corgan?

  You were in a coma for a year?

• 1:06Speaker 01

  Half a year. Life support.

• 1:11Billy Corgan?

  I'm here with one of my favorite singers of all time. Miss Dale Bozzio.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 1:17Billy Corgan?

  I bought this book not long ago. I love this book. You put a lot of your heart in this book, no?

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Are you asking me that?

• 1:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Or telling me that?

• 1:26Billy Corgan?

  I'm asking because I feel like your heart's really in... Well, let's put it this way.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 1:32Billy Corgan?

  You're a fellow Pisces like me.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 1:35Billy Corgan?

  You're March 2nd.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:36Billy Corgan?

  I'm March 17th.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:38Billy Corgan?

  So, I understand your pain. That's where we're gonna start this interview.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, now we're on...

• 1:43Billy Corgan?

  No, but I...

• 1:43Speaker 01

  Now we're...

• 1:44Billy Corgan?

  But as a fan of yours... But as a fan of yours, I always feel you always led with your heart in your music. Is that accurate?

• 1:51Speaker 01

  Yes, or my pain.

• 1:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but is that how you are in life? Because that's how I feel, but I don't know that.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:57Billy Corgan?

  So, this book...

• 1:58Speaker 01

  I think you know more than you say you do now that we know that we're not birthdays.

• 2:02Billy Corgan?

  We're doing Pisces.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  And where we're coming from is a little bit of a level. I love that shirt.

• 2:07Billy Corgan?

  Oh, thank you.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, you look very... You look fantastic. You look fantastic.

• 2:11Billy Corgan?

  Well, I knew I had to dress up for you.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Well, thank you very much.

• 2:14Billy Corgan?

  Because you always had true style.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  It wasn't, I tell ya, the thing about that style and those Plexiglas.

• 2:23Billy Corgan?

  We're not, the Plexiglas bloops are on like page four of these notes.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Okay, whatever, I'm with you.

• 2:29Billy Corgan?

  We're starting with music.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  What about it?

• 2:33Billy Corgan?

  Well, your most recent album, Hollywood Lie, right?

• 2:36Speaker 01

  Is, yes.

• 2:37Billy Corgan?

  So, I was curious on that because I felt like you were kind of going for, I don't wanna say a retro sound, cuz it's not fair to call your sound retro, cuz you invented that sound. But did you purposely wanna make kind of a 80s-ish sounding missing persons record? Does it make sense?

• 2:54Speaker 01

  Hmm, that's a big question.

• 2:56Billy Corgan?

  Well, they're all big questions.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  I mean, the music is one thing, the attitude's another, the process is one and all, and why you do it is another reason.

• 3:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  So for me.

• 3:09Billy Corgan?

  Pick one of those.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  So for me, the music, the reason that came out that way, was, I don't take the intention of sounding any which way for any reason. I'm a non-singer. I come from.

• 3:24Billy Corgan?

  I'm gonna argue with you about that, by the way.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  Well, okay, well, I developed into something from nothing.

• 3:33Billy Corgan?

  Right, but that's why you're a great singer.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  Well, so I just sort of self-taught in a facet. And so with the music of how that Hollywood Lie ended up, was that I said, I want to focus on being simple and synchronize my impression of my vocal, of how that will be taken, what impression that is gonna set on you when you hear me say these words.

• 4:03Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so you felt that musical backdrop was.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Or sing to you. I wanted, now, after all I've done, I mean, that's why. I mean, only because, not because I'm a new band and I'm looking for a hit number one, bang, top, you know, gotta have a riff and kick and, you know, what's the glitch? No, that's not the story. I have to succumb to people like you that would say.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Oh, what? What does this mean? What does this mean?

• 4:34Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's what I'm asking you.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Right, so that's, I guess I did the right thing then.

• 4:38Billy Corgan?

  Ah, you made me ask the question.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:40Billy Corgan?

  Which is what you wanted.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you very much.

• 4:43Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  I appreciate that.

• 4:45Billy Corgan?

  I'm curious, we're going back here to the beginning. So you were born in Boston in 1955?

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, yes.

• 4:54Billy Corgan?

  Catholic family?

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:56Billy Corgan?

  How did I know that? I just can feel it.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Because I'm polite.

• 5:02Billy Corgan?

  Italian?

• 5:04Speaker 01

  Roman.

• 5:05Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  My-

• 5:06Billy Corgan?

  Roman Catholic?

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:08Billy Corgan?

  Me too.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  My great-grand uncle of the seventh generation died acting pope in the Vatican in Rome. My father is Roman.

• 5:20Billy Corgan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  And when I went to Rome on tour with Frank Zappa, he got paperwork for me to be allowed to go into the Vatican to see all the frozen, cryogenically frozen popes. Because one of them was my name, Consolvi. My maid, my father's name, it's a Roman name.

• 5:40Billy Corgan?

  Did you go in?

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that I got, because it was on my passport, Consolvi.

• 5:45Billy Corgan?

  So you saw the frozen popes?

• 5:46Speaker 01

  I saw all the frozen popes.

• 5:48Billy Corgan?

  Was it wild?

• 5:48Speaker 01

  Terry Bozzio came with me, and Terry says, can they, can, can, can we take a Polaroid? I'm like, Terry, we were serious, right? We went in with scarves on. Terry said, get the scarf up over his nose, his pumps like this.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  And all these popes are above your head, like eye level, up in these clear caskets, dressed to the nines, in their papa, and they're all these-

• 6:17Billy Corgan?

  Did you see your, your ancestor?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I stood right next to him. And, and, and so, so we leave, we see, and we do all this stuff, you know, paperwork, all assigned to get in, get out, and all this stuff. Yeah. And, and Consolvi, the pope, is all over the Vatican, he's in the walls, the whole nine yards, right? So we go back to Frank's, the hotel in Frank's, Zappa says to Terry, "Well, does she look like the pope?" Terry goes, "She looks exactly like him. She looks exactly like him. They stood, standing next to each other, I couldn't believe it." I couldn't, so, Terry, and then, and, uh, that, that's what, what was like the biggest joke, because prior to going on that tour- I had fallen out of a window. But I had made Joe's Garage.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  I was never in Frank's band.

• 7:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  I was, I only made records with Frank.

• 7:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  So because I made Joe's Garage with Frank, then he was thinking of doing all this other stuff. So he took me on the tour with him.

• 7:13Billy Corgan?

  Ah, this is seventy.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  It's like seventy-nine, seventy-eight, seventy-eight. And.

• 7:19Billy Corgan?

  My father, by the way, my father was a musician. He was obsessed with that record. So I heard, I heard that record a lot.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Oh, no, really?

• 7:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, my dad was a stoner, drug dealer type who would listen to Zappa.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Was his middle name Dale?

• 7:32Billy Corgan?

  Yes. Did you know that?

• 7:34Speaker 01

  I did. I noted that. I noted that.

• 7:36Billy Corgan?

  William Dale Corgan.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's a very, very.

• 7:40Billy Corgan?

  There you go.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  Very staunch, very, uh.

• 7:42Billy Corgan?

  Do you know what, what is, is Dale Gaelic or is it?

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Dale only really means a small valley. That's it. That's what it means. But, um, it's, I personally was named after Dale Evans, the woman.

• 7:57Billy Corgan?

  Of course.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  That was the singer cowboy, very famous back then in the fifties.

• 8:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  So that's what.

• 8:03Billy Corgan?

  It was kind of the paragon of virtue.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  And that was sort of what.

• 8:07Billy Corgan?

  So, young Catholic girl, growing up in Boston.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:11Billy Corgan?

  Family religious or, or just kind of in naming?

• 8:15Speaker 01

  No, my family, my father. Was it that he, he believed in God and thought God was watching us?

• 8:22Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Upstairs? He thought God lived on the third floor of our house. But he met me at the breakfast table with a forty-five and a glass of whiskey. So I don't know what we're happy he was with that. And, uh, you know, it seemed all right to me. I mean, it seemed like the normal thing to do.

• 8:43Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  You know, I, he cooked me a five course breakfast. Lunch was waiting, dinner was like, you could smell it down the block.

• 8:50Billy Corgan?

  What did your daddy do?

• 8:52Speaker 01

  My father was a builder.

• 8:54Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  A builder and a carpenter for a lot of, of really different. No.

• 8:59Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  No, I'm, yeah.

• 9:01Billy Corgan?

  Was that hard in Boston?

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Never paid a day in tax.

• 9:04Billy Corgan?

  Ah, okay. Now I, I feel your flow now.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And my father had a semi full of Chesterfield cigarettes and Lucky Strikes in the driveway. And the other semi.

• 9:16Billy Corgan?

  And some friends.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the other semi was full of whiskey.

• 9:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah. So.

• 9:23Billy Corgan?

  No training as a singer, yeah, right? I mean, did you sing when you were young, though?

• 9:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I used to fake it and sing the Pied Piper in the window. I'm the Pied Piper, follow me.

• 9:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:37Billy Corgan?

  So, you sang along to the radio type thing?

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:40Billy Corgan?

  But you never saw yourself as a singer?

• 9:42Speaker 01

  No, I wanted to be a movie star.

• 9:45Billy Corgan?

  Okay, and who were your, who'd you admire as a movie star?

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Veronica Lake, Jean Harlow.

• 9:52Billy Corgan?

  Have you met the guy here who's the Jean Harlow expert?

• 9:55Speaker 01

  No.

• 9:56Billy Corgan?

  I could introduce you to him, a friend of mine is one of his friends. He has the greatest Jean Harlow collection, I think he has her car. He has all this crazy stuff of Jean Harlow's.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Oh, Lord.

• 10:06Billy Corgan?

  He even has, when she would do her makeup and like they would, you know, like a woman will do.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  They kiss her lips, yeah.

• 10:12Billy Corgan?

  But he has the original tissues.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 10:16Billy Corgan?

  So if you want me to introduce you to this gentleman.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:19Billy Corgan?

  He's like the leading Jean Harlow expert in the world and wrote a book on her.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  Oh, that's insane.

• 10:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  Oh, my Lord.

• 10:25Billy Corgan?

  So Jean Harlow.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Oh, Veronica Lake.

• 10:28Billy Corgan?

  You know. The peek-a-boo, right?

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just, I admired all those, those movies.

• 10:34Billy Corgan?

  Did you want to be like a film noir type of actress, or?

• 10:37Speaker 01

  I watched movies with my father till it went off on the shoot when I was growing up because we didn't have the availability that you have now of what this movies.

• 10:50Billy Corgan?

  So what was it about?

• 10:51Speaker 01

  What I saw were the black and whites with these women that all had blonde hair that appeared to me with these skinny little dresses on, had like fancy cars and fur coats and were always smiling and drinking and I thought, okay.

• 11:04Billy Corgan?

  It looks fun.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  That's what I want to be.

• 11:07Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so, did you like girl groups? I mean, what was the kind of music you did like?

• 11:12Speaker 01

  To be honest with you, I'm really not a musically. Based person of life. I'm more.

• 11:20Billy Corgan?

  You're not a music listener?

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Movies, no.

• 11:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  I watch many movies. I could digest ten to twelve movies if I had to. I have so many movie channels. I watch more movies than I could. I have to catch up.

• 11:35Billy Corgan?

  My wife laughs because I only watch like thirties movies. That's me.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Well, I, listen, I watched the forty movies. Forty's movies.

• 11:41Billy Corgan?

  You're more forty's, yeah?

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm more forty's movies. Because when I was growing up in the fifty fives, I was watching the movies that were made prior to.

• 11:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  You gotta remember the movies I'm watching.

• 11:51Billy Corgan?

  What are some of your favorite forty's movies?

• 11:52Speaker 01

  I can't even remember off the top of my head right now, you know. You gotta remember, I fell forty feet out of a window.

• 11:59Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but I.

• 12:02Billy Corgan?

  What year did you fall out the window?

• 12:04Speaker 01

  I was twenty one. It was nineteen September. Listen, I wrote the book for three reasons. Let's, let me just clear this up with you. Yeah, this book.

• 12:13Billy Corgan?

  We're plugging now.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  That you keep asking me these like, in like, in leading questions.

• 12:18Billy Corgan?

  We're just getting started.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  To my life. But the reason I wrote that book is for, for, for one of the reasons, on September tenth nineteen seventy six, I fell out of a window.

• 12:28Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  From downtown L.A., Los Angeles, of Holiday Inn.

• 12:32Billy Corgan?

  Now, is the story that somebody was trying to come in and hurt you or rape you or?

• 12:36Speaker 01

  They, there was a, they were trying, they were gonna kill me, basically. That's what the guy told me. No, it was a security guard and he told me that he was gonna kill me and I forget that word and I ran for help, right?

• 12:47Billy Corgan?

  And, and, and.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  So I ran for help, opened the window.

• 12:50Billy Corgan?

  And you are a little thing.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Well, it's just a little girl. I had, you know, I had actually gold cowboy boots on. You know, I was just regularly watching Johnny Carson. My cousin had just had an asthma attack. Anyway, make a long story short. I fell out the window. This was just weeks after I finished making Joe's Garage. One, two, three and four.

• 13:11Billy Corgan?

  Mm hmm.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Now my life ends. I slip into a coma. I wake up in Frank Zappa's living room. Coma again, shipped me to Boston, life support. I wake up, I'm a year older.

• 13:24Billy Corgan?

  You were in a coma for a year?

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Half a year, life support.

• 13:28Billy Corgan?

  Were you in and out, or you were out?

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Oh, no, out.

• 13:31Billy Corgan?

  So for six months, you're out?

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Oh, no, eight, close to, yeah.

• 13:35Billy Corgan?

  Do you remember anything from being out, or were you just out?

• 13:38Speaker 01

  No, I was out for a long time.

• 13:40Billy Corgan?

  But I'm saying, were you dreaming during this period, or you're just out?

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Out.

• 13:43Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Blank.

• 13:45Billy Corgan?

  So it's a miracle you're here.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Life supports, medicine, well, yeah. I broke my kneecap, broke my floating ribs, and split my head open. Fifty-two stitches. And really, a miracle to be alive.

• 14:00Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  Pretty much. And so, I wanted that stated to the world, more so, and then recorded in my own words to say what happened.

• 14:11Billy Corgan?

  Is that where the Windows song?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's where all the songs really come from.

• 14:15Billy Corgan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  That's when I wake up and I write "Destination Unknown."

• 14:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Oh, boy, oh, really? Is that what happens?

• 14:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  You clearly black out, and that's it. And there's nothing, nothing. And when I woke up, it all came back, and it came back really fast.

• 14:35Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Smashingly. And for six months, I was blind because of the concussion and the whole coma, blah, blah. And so then Frank Zappa rang my mother's home phone, under the clear blue sky, and said, "We're going on a tour to Europe, wanna come with me tomorrow?" I'm like, this is my home phones. And I said, "Yes, Frank, okay, I'll go." I basically think it was seventy-seven now, because that's when I woke up. I passed out in seventy-six and woke up in seventy-seven. And so Frank called, and I-

• 15:03Billy Corgan?

  You weren't married at this point, yet, right?

• 15:05Speaker 01

  No, no, I only knew Terry at the beginning. At the beginning, we had a relationship. And Terry always said it should have been a one-night stand, and, you know. Weren't they all?

• 15:15Billy Corgan?

  Sounds like a drummer.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, you know. Really doesn't surprise me. You know, no, I love Terry Bozzio, you know, love Terry Bozzio. I told him then, he would be one of the greatest drummers in the world. Had to convince him. After night, after night, after night. There's some things that just a woman knows. I told them.

• 15:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  But I had an incredible time with Terry, you know. So what happened then, Terry, I met Terry and Frank in the airport in New York. And the next day, my mother thought I lost my mind. I'm on morphine, I'm like, you know, your headaches. I'm like, I go, yeah, well, no more CAT scans for me, babe. See you later, I gotta go. And I just said, I'm not gonna die. Everything's all right. And I left. And that was it. And Frank just said, come on, let's go, go to Europe. And we get to every, every single lunch, dinner. The waitress, man, would come, say, OK, this is Dale. Now, she just fell 40 feet out of a window and she wants shrimp and cookies.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Let's get that. And the whole band would sit there and go, he's not doing this. He's not literally, and he did every.

• 16:29Billy Corgan?

  Did you want shrimp and cookies?

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did. I did.

• 16:32Billy Corgan?

  Why shrimp and cookies?

• 16:32Speaker 01

  That was the only thing I could think of. He put me on the spot so many times. He said, what do you want to eat? What's your favorite things to eat? I go, I don't know, Frank, shrimp and cookies. And I got to live it down. I swear to God, I swear, by the time we get to the end of the tour, it was like three months later.

• 16:50Billy Corgan?

  How skinny were you at this point?

• 16:51Speaker 01

  And the waitress came and the whole band, she wants big shrimp and cookies.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  It was hysterical.

• 17:00Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  I guess she had to be there.

• 17:02Billy Corgan?

  No, it sounds, well.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  It was insane.

• 17:04Billy Corgan?

  It sounds Zappa-esque.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had the most impressionable times with Frank. Frank threads the whole book.

• 17:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  That's why I'm telling you this story. Frank saved my life. Frank made me an icon. I am who I am today because of Frank Zappa. That is the truth.

• 17:27Billy Corgan?

  What do you think?

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Nothing more than that.

• 17:29Billy Corgan?

  Outside of the musicality in you, which I want to talk about, what did Frank see in you?

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Well, that's something else.

• 17:35Billy Corgan?

  OK, but I want to get to that. But what did Frank see in you as a person, you think?

• 17:38Speaker 01

  You could hear the timbre in my voice when I speak. You, you, you hear that edge? That's a Frank heard.

• 17:47Billy Corgan?

  No, but I wanna, I wanna say what he saw in you as a person.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  That's what he said.

• 17:50Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but I wanna-

• 17:51Speaker 01

  He said, "I hear it."

• 17:52Billy Corgan?

  Well, of course he would hear it.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  "I hear, I hear you. I hear you."

• 17:57Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  And you, he'd say, "You are hysterical." And that's it. And he-

• 18:06Billy Corgan?

  So you feel like he understood you?

• 18:08Speaker 01

  The day I met him, I climbed in, I climbed up three flights of the Orpheum Theater in Boston, the fire escape, and I climbed in the window and I opened the door and Frank was standing there. And he looked at me and he went, "How did you get in here?" I said, "Frank, I climbed up the fire escape and I climbed in the bathroom window." He went-

• 18:29Billy Corgan?

  Like a Beatles song?

• 18:30Speaker 01

  He said, "You didn't do that." I said, "There's the bathroom." I did. He, he knew it was the bathroom because it was a backstage bathroom. It was one bathroom, one window, and you couldn't get in and out of there except through the fire escape. He started laughing hysterically. He laughed hysterically.

• 18:47Billy Corgan?

  Why did you climb in through the windows?

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Because I had to see the concert.

• 18:50Billy Corgan?

  Were you a Zappa fan?

• 18:51Speaker 01

  I was a Zappa fan at the time only because my, my friends-

• 18:55Billy Corgan?

  Were you one of those stoner Zappa fans?

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Yes, I was a hippie originally. So, I was completely into Frank's oddity. And, and, and it wasn't, and it was either that or Taborus. Because I loved dancing disco.

• 19:10Billy Corgan?

  The soul band, yeah.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I'm a-

• 19:12Billy Corgan?

  What was their big hit?

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Disco Queen.

• 19:14Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  Heaven Must Be Missing An Angel. Yeah, so-

• 19:17Billy Corgan?

  Taborus.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm the biggest fan ever, you know? So, but then, you know, I switched to the other side and get a little kinda like-

• 19:26Billy Corgan?

  Prague.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  You know, interesting. And I listened a little, I listened a little more to Frank-

• 19:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  And go, "He's really playing himself."

• 19:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  You know, and like go, "Hmm, okay." So, anyway, so, anyway, as it went on, my relationship with Frank grew because by the time, that was 16 when I met him through the dressing room window.

• 19:50Billy Corgan?

  16 years old?

• 19:51Speaker 01

  Yes. Now, he asked me out to the dinner, I go out to the dinner, he asked me into the hotel room. I say, "Frank, I can't go in the hotel room. I don't even have a driver's license. I'm driving this car. I, I can't go to your party." I'm 16. He said, "You're right. You can't go to the party." And he kissed me on the forehead. And he walked away and said, "Goodbye. I'll see you again." I just looked at him, lit up a joint and drove away crying, thinking, "That's not possible." I was sixteen that day. And he was doing some big tour at the time, twelve-piece orchestra. I end up being twenty-one. I'm in California.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  And I'm in the Playboy magazine. I'm Playboy Bunny of the Year for Boston.

• 20:41Billy Corgan?

  I'll stop you there. How do you become Playboy Bunny of the Year?

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Hefner has to pick you.

• 20:48Billy Corgan?

  So you were just picked out of a lineup?

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Out of, he gets all these photographs, because he's the editor. And he picks who thinks.

• 20:57Billy Corgan?

  Did you like being a Playboy bunny?

• 20:59Speaker 01

  I did.

• 21:00Billy Corgan?

  It was kind of, there was a bit of prestige to it back then.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  Absolutely, in Boston.

• 21:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And you wore the costume with the tail?

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Yes, I did.

• 21:08Billy Corgan?

  Do you have pictures of you like this?

• 21:09Speaker 01

  I do, I do. And I was a billiards bunny. I shot pool.

• 21:14Billy Corgan?

  And how's your pool?

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Superior.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, absolutely.

• 21:20Billy Corgan?

  You used to like take the marks?

• 21:22Speaker 01

  I won every game. That was it. I think I made more money then than I do now.

• 21:28Billy Corgan?

  Pool shark.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 21:29Billy Corgan?

  I never knew you were a pool shark.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  My brother taught me how to play pool down the basin.

• 21:33Billy Corgan?

  Down in the basin.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  He was nine years older than me and he was a pool shark. And I wasn't gonna tell anybody that, but I was playing pool with my brother.

• 21:41Billy Corgan?

  That's the gimmick. I don't think they're gonna beat the little girl up in pool.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  I knew everything about the sticks and the da, da, da, da, da, da.

• 21:46Billy Corgan?

  Do you still play?

• 21:47Speaker 01

  I haven't played lately, but I can, you know. It's interesting though, right? When your childhood mechanisms, I was still just still a kid. I was hired to be a Playboy bunny the day I turned eighteen.

• 22:00Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  So I was a bunny from eighteen to twenty-one. By the time I got to twenty-one, Hefner called me to come to California.

• 22:07Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  When I came to California, Hefner wouldn't come downstairs from his balcony. And I kind of flipped out, because I'm from Boston and I have an edge and an attitude. And I said, "I have a previous engagement. I gotta go."

• 22:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  And I walked out of the mansion. And that was my day that I was gonna be Valentine at the front door. Move in, be a centerfold, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I walked out. I had like this anxiety attack, turned around and walked out. Grabbed my Playboy magazine from the secretary and left.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  I said, okay, keep going. Was no turning back. I turned on, I was driving a Firebird. It was, uh, it was the nineteen, it was the nineteen seventy-two.

• 22:53Billy Corgan?

  Had you driven out in a car?

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Five-speed. Recaro seats, yes.

• 22:57Billy Corgan?

  But you, oh, so you driven out then?

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Me, drove it with two Playboy bunnies in the backseat. Navy blue rag top-down, black interior, five-speed.

• 23:07Billy Corgan?

  Always styling.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  I blew from Boston to Hefner's house. Now, he wouldn't talk to me.

• 23:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  And I was a little off. I peeled out of that fucking mansion at about a fucking one ninety, you know? I was so mad, I couldn't even shift the car, I was going so fucking fast. I pulled out of the air and I went, oh, that's really great. Where are you gonna go now? You know, I have this other side of me, you know what I mean? I got, I really do. I have this like Dale over here shoulder going, I'm like that commercial on TV. You do it or don't.

• 23:40Billy Corgan?

  If it was Dale Autry, actually.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, yeah, like, there's a couple of things.

• 23:44Billy Corgan?

  On the horse, like, you know?

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 23:46Billy Corgan?

  You're going the wrong way.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  I gotta kind of get that attitude, you know? Like, I just, if things don't go my way, not that I don't mean it, but I X it. Because I, it could be dangerous. I see things differently than people do. And in, in an extreme emergency, you want me. You want me. I'll see if you.

• 24:09Billy Corgan?

  Well, you've survived death.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Well, I will go. I, I'm like the fireman that runs into the fire.

• 24:14Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  Like the foolish men, firemen laugh about that.

• 24:16Billy Corgan?

  Is this where you end up going to find Frank Zappa? Is this?

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. This is what happened. That's what happened.

• 24:23Billy Corgan?

  That same day?

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was fifteen minutes later. I'm on S I R Studio Instrumental Lofts in Hollywood.

• 24:29Billy Corgan?

  But why'd you go there?

• 24:30Speaker 01

  Because I had a guitar player that was just up and coming and he told me he was gonna be there if anything went wrong. And he lived on North Orange Drive in, in California. And I was sleeping on his couch.

• 24:42Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  The day before, I was supposed to move into the mansion.

• 24:46Billy Corgan?

  Got it.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Okay, so now, I get to this lot. I'm on E, I'm in black leather head to toe. I'm this little blonde girl, you know? I came here from Boston, I get like my black leather jacket in the back. I didn't know it was gonna be ninety-five degrees.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  I walk on the lot. I hear this music playing and I know it's Frank. Because I know Frank's music.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  I look over the door. The door has a sign on it, big letters. If you value your life, do not open this door.

• 25:18Billy Corgan?

  So you open the door.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  I open the door. I open the door, there's Frank, he's looking at me. He says, he says.

• 25:26Billy Corgan?

  Did he recognize you?

• 25:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. He says, what are you doing here? I went, Frank, you recognize me? He goes, yeah, you just opened the door. I, yeah, from Boston. What are you doing here? I go, well, now, that was 16 when he met.

• 25:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, so this is five years later.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm like, Frank, can you remember me? He goes, yeah, what are you doing? What are you, what are you doing? I'm just standing here in black leather head to toe, holding a Playboy magazine. The last time I saw him, I had green hair. With a miniskirt and a marabou top on, right? With these, like, the spike shoes. And he goes, okay. I go, well, I just left you happiness house. I don't have a job. I have no money. The gas is on E. I'm not parked in a good space and I'm really hungry, Frank. And he.

• 26:21Billy Corgan?

  Is the band also sitting there? Is this?

• 26:23Speaker 01

  The band's right there.

• 26:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  It's, it's Eddie Jobson, okay?

• 26:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  He said, Eddie Jobson over there is Patrick O'Hara and Terry Bozzio.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  There, right, there, right? And I'm, and I'm standing there, like, I'm sweating because it's like such an incredible story. You know, like, I go, I'm right there, like, I'm right there. And I go, I go, Frank? I look at the whole thing, I go, really sorry to interrupt, Frank. I kind of like start walking backwards. He goes, no, no, no, wait, no, wait. You need a job? I go, yeah, I do, Frank. I need a job. I said, I've got to go call my mother. I got to get Western Union. You know, I got to go back to Boston. You know, I drove here. He said, you drove here? I, yeah, I drove here. He said, okay, well, okay, there's an apple over there.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  And I'm going to put you on the payroll tomorrow. You're going to be Mary. You're gonna be Mary from Joe's Garage. And I needed Mary, and you're my Mary. And I went, but Frank, I came to Hollywood to be

• 27:34Billy Corgan?

  Be an actress.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  A movie star.

• 27:37Billy Corgan?

  Sorry, movie star, not actress.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  I don't know how to sing.

• 27:40Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  He started laughing hysterically. He fell down on the floor laughing on his knees, like literally holding his head, okay? It was the most incredible scene you've ever seen in your fucking life. Frank's out there just literally laughing his fucking ass off, like literally. And those three over there didn't know what the fuck was going on.

• 28:02Billy Corgan?

  Of course.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  They thought I was his girlfriend, right? So Frank goes, okay, you're on the payroll.

• 28:09Billy Corgan?

  Here's an apple.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  Mary! And he's telling them, Mary's here. It's Mary. You know, he's like so happy, you know?

• 28:17Billy Corgan?

  And you never sang professionally a day in your life?

• 28:19Speaker 01

  I'm like, Frank, Frank, you don't understand, Frank. Frank, I don't even know how to sing. You, you, I'll do housekeeping. And he just kept laughing. He just kept laughing. And I'm, I'm like, okay. He said, it's $500 a week. You can't refuse. It's insurance and dental.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  And I'm looking at him like, that's not a movie contract there, you know? I love you babe, but I don't know about that, right? So I'm like, okay, Frank. All right, Frank, see you later. You know, what? You know what I mean? I just walked in out of Glib's guy goes, no, no, wait. Terry Bozzio is gonna take you to the studio tomorrow morning. You sleep at Terry's tonight. I go, I sleep at Terry's tonight? Okay, all right. Talk to you later. Gotta go.

• 29:13Billy Corgan?

  So you even found your future husband.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. And right then and there, Terry and I became an item.

• 29:22Billy Corgan?

  Did you know right away about Terry?

• 29:24Speaker 01

  I know, I was going along with the program.

• 29:27Billy Corgan?

  No, I get that, but I'm saying sometimes, sometimes women have a way of knowing something about a man before the man figures it out.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  I know, no, no, I, I, I knew that I, that I really appreciated him and I knew that he was so talented. He was, I, I could, I could, he just, and that, and he was a precious human being. I wasn't really planning.

• 29:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  I wasn't planning to get married. I wasn't planning on any of those things. I wasn't planning on being in a rock band. Really?

• 30:04Billy Corgan?

  That's what's so beautiful about the story.

• 30:07Billy Corgan?

  You met Terry in 1976?

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:10Billy Corgan?

  And you were married in 79?

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:13Billy Corgan?

  Parents approve?

• 30:16Speaker 01

  They loved him.

• 30:17Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  But my, my parents were separated. When I was very small. I had a very estranged family.

• 30:27Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  My mother was very odd and

• 30:33Speaker 01

  my father, they, they were separated and my father dedicated his life to me and took care of me and she went on with her life to do whatever it was that she thought that she had to do.

• 30:46Billy Corgan?

  So you didn't really grow up with your mother?

• 30:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 30:49Billy Corgan?

  From what age on?

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Nine.

• 30:50Billy Corgan?

  Mine was four.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Really?

• 30:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Where did your mother go?

• 30:54Billy Corgan?

  In San Asylum.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  Oh, okay, so you, you understand the heavy, heavy tone

• 31:02Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  that it lays on your heart and your life.

• 31:06Billy Corgan?

  Very much so.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  So, okay, so well then, okay, well you can relate to this. Not that I'm trying to top your story.

• 31:14Billy Corgan?

  No, no.

• 31:15Speaker 01

  But my mother.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  I used to think that my grandmother was my mother. And my mother, my grandmother died at sixty-two. But my mother was always so wild and crazy. And she would make amends for my mother the whole time. And I didn't know till I found my mother's death certificate that my mother was born in a prison. Because my grandmother was fifteen when she delivered my mother. And they took her from Canada to Lawrence, Massachusetts, and they put her in a prison. So she would deliver the baby. And then they took the baby away from her and put my mother in a nunnery. And my mother grew up with nuns, so she escaped. She escaped when she was sixteen and went haywire.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Ran into my father on the corner in the middle of a snowstorm in Boston. He was twenty or so, fourteen, eighteen years older than her. He picked her up off the curb and saved her a little ass.

• 32:15Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  And took her home and took care of her.

• 32:18Billy Corgan?

  Are your parents still with us?

• 32:20Speaker 01

  No, my father was born in nineteen-ten. He'd be a hundred and fourteen today.

• 32:25Billy Corgan?

  It's possible.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and my mother passed away at eighty-five. She just kind of just coughed and stated some incredible poems while she was gonna die. And she was more like a butterfly than a mother. She was always, she, I remember her just dancing and singing and, and, and thinking that she was the movie star.

• 32:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  And she was really beautiful and blonde and blue, ice-blue eyes. I write a song about her on my new record. It's called Ice-Blue Eyes. And how cold she is.

• 33:00Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  And how, how, how fame isn't so much just fame. But fame is a word that makes you burn inside for something you long for, that you think you want, that you don't have.

• 33:14Billy Corgan?

  That's true.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  And you'll never really know till you get it. And then you find out it isn't anything.

• 33:19Billy Corgan?

  I went through the same thing.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Right?

• 33:20Billy Corgan?

  I, I, yeah.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  And that's how I saw her.

• 33:23Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  Not me, that's how I saw her.

• 33:26Billy Corgan?

  Did she, when you were successful, did she?

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, she came back.

• 33:30Billy Corgan?

  But I'm saying, was she jealous? Was she supportive? Was she?

• 33:32Speaker 01

  She, she, she couldn't tell. I, I, I, you know, I.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  She's such a mystery to me. I wanna be honest with you.

• 33:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Because I hear what you just told me.

• 33:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  And I have sympathy for that, but I know where your mind goes. You know, I know you're trying to keep it all straight.

• 33:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  And you're gonna have one eye open and keep watching behind the... over your shoulder and behind your back. I know that attitude. I know that feeling and I know that despair. Almost when there's nobody there but yourself.

• 34:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  You know, and that's it. And you always end up with yourself. But I feel that from you and I feel like that's why you... To me, you reap kindness and like caring and, you know, you wanna fix things.

• 34:21Billy Corgan?

  I do wanna fix things. So, you're in love and you're married? What age were you married at?

• 34:30Speaker 01

  Uh, well...

• 34:35Speaker 01

  I'm thinking 27.

• 34:37Billy Corgan?

  Okay, somewhere in there, yeah.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:39Billy Corgan?

  So, did you feel like... Because of your family circumstance, did you feel like you'd found sort of the right situation for you? Or is it very much as we can get into life, you're on this journey and that's...

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Uh-uh.

• 34:54Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Never got that love?

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Don't know.

• 35:01Billy Corgan?

  Huh.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  I... No. I say it a lot because I know the most important thing, or two important things, a saying to someone to care for them is to say I love you and that I'm proud of you.

• 35:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  And so I do that because I'm incorrigible. Because I know how hard it is to find courage. Have to go so deep down into the dirty rinds of your past to be incorrigible.

• 35:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  And so I tried to give people a little piece of something that maybe they don't have to even look any further for. And they can kind of go, oh, she loves me? She doesn't even know me. But I said it. And when you say it, you kind of can't take it back.

• 35:49Billy Corgan?

  I'm not trying to be gossipy, but I'm just trying to understand the dynamic because

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:53Billy Corgan?

  here in this relationship with this savant drummer.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  I

• 35:57Billy Corgan?

  And I know Terry a little bit. He's definitely his own person, you know what I mean?

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Terry's a genius. Terry's a genius. As they come, Terry's an incredibly calculated genius. And he is one of the top 10 greatest drummers in the world.

• 36:11Billy Corgan?

  Wouldn't argue with that.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  He learned how to play the drum on hitting a dime. And he does not click his drumsticks. He is beyond

• 36:22Billy Corgan?

  Oh, no, he's

• 36:24Speaker 01

  A battery.

• 36:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely.

• 36:26Billy Corgan?

  Absolutely.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  I know a lot of geniuses and I kind of reflect most of my relationships have been with genius type people. And I understand their

• 36:37Billy Corgan?

  But I want to talk about your I want to talk about your genius. I know, I know there's the sort of thing about where Frank encourages you in the band and stuff. But what was the sort of the organic part of this? Like, you're married to this great musician. At what point does it start to become a thing like, we should have a band? Was something you joked about or?

• 36:54Speaker 01

  It was no joke.

• 36:57Billy Corgan?

  No, because my wife is on me to start a band.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  Okay, well, that's great.

• 37:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's fine. And I'm happy to do a band. But I'm saying

• 37:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 37:04Billy Corgan?

  Couples have a way of talking about things that sometimes they happen, sometimes they don't.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it wasn't like that at all. Actually, it wasn't like that. It was more between Warren and I, Cucurulo.

• 37:16Billy Corgan?

  Okay. And Warren was in, Warren was in the Zappa world.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Warren was hired by Frank.

• 37:21Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Now, so Warren is just working with Frank. And so Terry goes on tour with UK.

• 37:29Billy Corgan?

  Right. Was that Phil? Who was he?

• 37:32Speaker 01

  That's John Wetton and Eddie Jobson.

• 37:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, okay, right.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  The three of them. They go to Europe and they do this tour.

• 37:39Billy Corgan?

  Did you like that music? It was so super.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, super hi-fi. Yeah, I loved it. You know, I do love, like that music. I prefer music with no vocals, personally.

• 37:48Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 37:49Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. In a strange sense of the way. It really disturbs me when I have to hear music to movies. I get distracted and I'm listening. I'm not, I'm listening to the beat.

• 38:03Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  I, yeah.

• 38:05Billy Corgan?

  I get you.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Can't, can't get it, can't lose it, can't. I've got a song 24/7 in my head. It's out, you know, I'm on a major tape loop. Tape, funny, funny.

• 38:16Billy Corgan?

  I like to hear that tape loop.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Well, the funny thing is, I'll tell you this really quick. But I meet Prince in this disco, Tramps, okay? I see him over there and I just walk in the front door with my friends, just casual, you know, go and hang out. See, I'm like, oh my God, it's Prince over there. So I walked directly over to him, poke him on the nose. He sees back like this, two big bodyguards go, what?

• 38:42Billy Corgan?

  He had the biggest bodyguards I've ever seen.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Right, well, 10 times.

• 38:45Billy Corgan?

  There was the one guy that was this wide.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, bigger than him, for sure. And I'm like, oh. I say, I'm sorry. This woman, they ask you to dance. You're the best dancer in the place. He turned around and the body guy goes. And we walked out and they started playing Red Corvette. Stop what was playing, turned on Red Corvette. He starts dancing with me. Stop dancing.

• 39:11Billy Corgan?

  That's the first time you met him?

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. We sit down and he goes, hey, do you have a car? I go, they have a car up front. He goes, really? What kind of a car is it? And I go, it's a Corvette. What color? I go, it's red.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  He goes, "Will you take me for a ride?" I go, "Right now?" "I just got here." He goes, "Yeah, let's go." I had to go, "I'm leaving." Yeah, I go, "Okay, let's go." And then we go outside. And I pull up, he pulls up the limousine, I pull up the red Corvette. He gets, he comes, he comes and jumps in the red Corvette. He goes, "Can you drive me really fast?" I'm looking at this guy going, "Holy dude."

• 39:50Billy Corgan?

  By the way, he's smaller than you.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're the same exact size.

• 39:54Billy Corgan?

  He was smaller than you, though.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  Um...

• 39:57Billy Corgan?

  Would take off the high heels.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I have to say, he kept his shoes on for all activities. I will not deny it, I will not deny it. And he says, "You gotta come over, I gotta play you something. I gotta play you some music." I go, "Really?"

• 40:17Billy Corgan?

  What town is this in?

• 40:18Speaker 01

  We were in Beverly Hills, right here in California. I go, "Okay." He goes, "But drive me really fast." "You're talking to the wrong person, you're talking to the wrong person." It's five, the five-speed Corvette, right? So, I'm at Wilshire and Santa Monica. I'm at 120 by the time I get to Westwood, okay? He's fucking screaming, "Stop, stop!" I scared the shit out of him. I couldn't believe it. So I pull over, you know, when you're driving, you think you're in control, you know what I mean? So I pull over, I slow down, I go slow. He goes, "Okay, go slow now. Okay, don't see any more stop signs, just go the regular speed." I go, "Okay, okay, it's okay, it's okay. Which way to your house?" Get to his house, we go upstairs, we go in these... He's having a full-fledged fucking party.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  It's 100 fucking people in there. I'm going, "What is going on here? You're at the fucking club and there's a party going on over here?" He goes, "Yeah, yeah, I couldn't stand it anymore." I'm like, "Okay, all right, whatever." And so, it was just ironic that we met.

• 41:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  He goes, "Please come upstairs." So I go upstairs, go into this room, see this big huge white house, white everything, white carpet, white everything.

• 41:26Billy Corgan?

  I heard he had like, white everything.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  White tent in the bedroom, white fucking everything, white piano. I'm like, "Okay, what are we doing here?" And I'm thinking, "Oh, fuck, do I have enough blow to deal with this fucking time over here? I had no, I didn't plan on coming over Prince's house. I was supposed to go back in, but I thought I left my friends flat and tried to screw them. So, I go..."

• 41:51Speaker 01

  I got in the ladies room. I go in the bathroom and I'm like snorting all the coke I have left and I'm going, oh my God, what am I doing here? I walk back out and he goes, listen, sit down right there.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  I go, okay. It was one single little bed, all in white. I sat on the edge of the bed. I have no idea what he was gonna do. He said, eight hours, I need you for eight hours.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  You, you, me and you? Okay, you got me. I wasn't gonna say no to Prince. I don't think so. He said, okay, okay, stay right there. He went over. He had this fucking music system, like tapes like this, like what from the studio, I've seen them. He turns this crank and it starts and it's windows. My song, it's my song. And I go.

• 42:52Billy Corgan?

  He's got your song on the tape thing.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  He's a big fucking bastard of tapes. I was like, I started laughing. I go, oh, that's Dale. He goes, yeah, you got eight hours? I go, yeah, I got eight hours. He made me listen to my music for eight hours. Eight hours, okay? He danced around the piano, he went downstairs and brought me back up lasagna, he came back with, with wine. I was like, this, this isn't really happening. I was halfway passing out, right?

• 43:33Speaker 01

  Literally, the sun came up and kept coming up and I was like, okay, listen, I gotta go home now, okay? I gotta go home, I gotta go home.

• 43:45Billy Corgan?

  My dad used to say, you know, he would always add, so you got dailed out.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:51Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Hysterical.

• 43:52Billy Corgan?

  You got dailed out.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  Blew my mind. Anyway, I pushed him down on the bed and had a sexual encounter with him. And took him over the edge, where I think somewhere he never went before. And he got on the floor and begged me to marry him and go to Las Vegas right then and there. And I said, no, I'm not gonna do that to you. I'm my own identity, and so are you. And I'll help you everywhere you go, and I'll be your friend for the rest of your life. And he said right then and there.

• 44:20Billy Corgan?

  Very Pisces thing to do, to do.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course, of course. I would never. I didn't wanna hurt his feelings. I was trying to ease his pain, is what I was doing. And I believe I did. I took him out of that being afraid. He was afraid.

• 44:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  He was so afraid. I believe he was a voyeur, really. Of all his love affairs, had the most beautiful women. Apollonia, I know personally.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Beautiful. You can't buy her beauty.

• 44:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  And her kindness and her care and her sensation. It just, he was somewhere else.

• 45:02Billy Corgan?

  Stop right there, because we have to go back to you.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Here I am.

• 45:05Billy Corgan?

  And Terry Bozzio.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Terry, listen, I love Terry because I just love, it's, it's, it's, it's, I'm enamored, I think.

• 45:17Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but the band, well, how do we get to the band?

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Frank said one day, we were in the kitchen, having peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

• 45:26Billy Corgan?

  At the Zappa?

• 45:27Speaker 01

  At Frank's house. We went there every night of the week, five nights of the week.

• 45:33Billy Corgan?

  Let me ask you this, was being part of Zappa's world, it was like a family, right?

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 45:37Billy Corgan?

  So you're part of the family?

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 45:39Billy Corgan?

  And you're just in his world?

• 45:41Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I didn't hear, listen to other music. That's why Shane asks me, my son, don't you know this, don't you know that? Did you ever see blah blah blah, did you ever go? And I go, no, like, I've never met these people, or got to meet them, or see them, or hear the music. We were Frank-Zappa. Because Terry was working for Frank at the time, Warren was working for Frank at the time. I wasn't working for Frank, I was there. Frank, I made Frank laugh, hysterically, as I've said. And that's why he kept me on the payroll.

• 46:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Because... It was, I'm not replaceable. And I gave him the news of everything that was happening all over the world.

• 46:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, so you were like his.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was the one that came in and told him who died today.

• 46:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  What happened in England today. I knew everything that was going on. I'm a sponge when it comes to news and everything that's going on, like firsthand news, CNN. And he was a big fan of CNN. That's what he had on in the studio.

• 46:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  At the time, you know, we didn't have the channel last week.

• 46:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's not like now.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  You know, right. So he really respected that of me because I was up on what was the happening of the time.

• 46:49Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  Not music.

• 46:51Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but how do we get to the band?

• 46:53Speaker 01

  Frank said this afternoon while we were eating the peanut butter and jelly. Listen, I got it. You three put a band together. I'll pay for it. You call it The Cute Persons.

• 47:08Billy Corgan?

  You call it the what?

• 47:09Speaker 01

  The Cute Persons.

• 47:10Billy Corgan?

  The Cute Persons.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  But I think, what was the day, the moment of shock, I could feel it for myself. Because I wasn't a musician.

• 47:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  I was so on for the ride.

• 47:23Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  And here I am getting my moment. It's Frank putting me in a rock band. Are you kidding me? They'll listen to me now, won't they? Sure they will.

• 47:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, they'll pay attention to me now, finally.

• 47:36Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Because I'm telling you, you gotta write a song called Destination Unknown. Because I fell out a window and I know a few things. And they finally decided to listen to me. And we went, me and Frank said, okay, take my studio. I'm going to New York. Take this address right now. It's the address of Ken Scott.

• 47:58Billy Corgan?

  Who produced.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  He lives down the street.

• 48:00Billy Corgan?

  Worked with Pink Floyd and The Beatles and Bowie, right? That Ken Scott.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  He just finished doing Les Dance with Bowie.

• 48:08Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  That week. He said, here, go to this address right now.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  Finish your sandwich. He says, "You was..." I go, "Frank, right now?" He says, "Yeah." He says, "If you have to, climb over the fence. He'll be at the pool getting a tan." Like, you know, Frank was always sarcastically, like incredibly funny beyond anybody else. So, make a long story short, I go, "Terry, Warren." He said, "Look, I'm leaving. Day after tomorrow. Take my studio, go get him." I said, "Let's go." Terry said, "Now?" I said, "Yeah, let's go, right now." We drove right over there, went outside, got in the B210 Datsun, and drove right down the street to Ken's house, pulled up.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  I said, "Just wait right here." I get to the go with the fence, I see him, he's sitting at the pool. There's a fence, fence is like two feet tall. I get take the boombox and I climb, I have Warren hand me the boombox and I climb over the fence. Walk up and he's sitting down there with the goggles on and he couldn't see me. And I go, "Excuse me, Ken Scott."

• 49:23Speaker 01

  He's like, "What? What are you doing in here? My yacht."

• 49:26Billy Corgan?

  Does he know you at all?

• 49:27Speaker 01

  No. Oh, girl, dressed like a Zulu with a, with a friggin boombox. I go, "I gotta play you this, I gotta play you this." He goes, "Play me what?" I go, "Listen, Frank Zappa just sent me over here, don't get mad. But Frank Zappa sent me over here, told me to climb over the fence 'cause you be getting a pool cook, a tan at the pool. So, you gotta hear this record, it's a hot new record. And the day after tomorrow, you can come over to Frank's brand new studio. He's got a Kurt Swile and everything, everything for free. Please come over and make this record demo with us, please, I'm just begging you." He looked at me, he looked at me, he took his towel down, he was like, "And then this (bleep) me."

• 50:13Speaker 01

  He stood up, he goes, he put his towel on, he had his skivvies on, you know, he put his towel, he goes, "Let's get out of sun." I walk over, he goes, "He'd play." He just, like, it was like...

• 50:27Billy Corgan?

  What was the song?

• 50:29Speaker 01

  It was, uh, "I Like Boys."

• 50:33Speaker 01

  Words. Uh, "Hello, I Love You." And "Walking in L.A."

• 50:39Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  He just got through the first song and stopped. He said, "Who is that?" I says, "It's Terry Bozzio." Brand new, number one, next new drummer of the world. Warren Cucurulo. Frank's giving us everything for free. "Can you do it?" He says, "Yep, I'll do it."

• 51:03Billy Corgan?

  Well.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  He said, "But do me a favor? Go out the front door."

• 51:11Speaker 01

  He took me to the front door. See it's studio. Shut the door. Then drove back to Frank. Got to the guy going, "He's doing it! He's doing it! It's it! We're in, we're in, we're in!" And Terry's going, "No, really?" Warren's, "I knew you'd do it! I knew it!" He was squeezing my shoulders. Warren was always my cheerleader, you know? We got in bad trouble together, Warren and I. Warren and I ruined the band! Warren and Terry quit.

• 51:42Billy Corgan?

  Okay, well, we're not to that, we're not to that point yet.

• 51:47Billy Corgan?

  Beautiful first record.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  Historic.

• 51:51Billy Corgan?

  Really great?

• 51:52Speaker 01

  Yep, historic.

• 51:53Billy Corgan?

  Really great.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  I can't, I can't say anything about it, but that's made the world change for me. And Frank said, "Yep." As soon as he came home from New York and he heard the songs we made, he said, "Okay, finish the record with Ken. You'll have a record deal now. Go to work.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  Have a nice day."

• 52:17Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  He wasn't kidding. I've worked my ass off since then.

• 52:22Billy Corgan?

  That's amazing.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  It's a never-ending story.

• 52:25Billy Corgan?

  So how do you go from, "I'm not a singer. I want to be a movie star?"

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Sadly.

• 52:31Billy Corgan?

  No, but...

• 52:32Speaker 01

  No, sadly, no, really. No, really, I still watch movies now and think...

• 52:37Billy Corgan?

  But you turned out to be a very important singer in my estimation.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  I appreciate that. That's really nice. But when you tell that to somebody who wants blue eyes and their eyes are brown...

• 52:51Billy Corgan?

  You still feel that.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  You can't take a feeling away out of your person.

• 52:58Billy Corgan?

  No, I get that.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  You know, we can subdue them, like our family and our mothers. We can subdue them. We're not leaving that.

• 53:06Billy Corgan?

  When you look back on that period, because obviously it was a great period for you musically, how do you feel about it? Okay, I'm saying it in lieu of what you're saying. I'm not asking you to reminisce.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  I didn't know that then.

• 53:17Billy Corgan?

  How do you feel about it now?

• 53:18Speaker 01

  I didn't, yeah, I didn't know I was making a song that would last for 40 years.

• 53:23Billy Corgan?

  Songs?

• 53:24Speaker 01

  Songs, yeah, I had no idea. I had no idea. I was just going along with the program. Thinking the next stage was making a movie.

• 53:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but did you think you were a strong songwriter?

• 53:40Speaker 01

  No, I think I'm a poet. I think I'm a poet. I do. I always thought that, that. I always thought that. I have been writing like these, these intellectual poems, not, you know.

• 53:56Billy Corgan?

  I get it. I know your lyrics enough to know what you're talking about.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I think. That's what I like about myself. It gives, gives me.

• 54:04Billy Corgan?

  But how do you feel about yourself as a singer?

• 54:15Speaker 01

  I don't, I feel, um, I don't know what to say there. Why would you ask me that?

• 54:25Billy Corgan?

  Because I think you're a great singer.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  Well, that's very nice of you. That's very nice of you. I can sing what I've been taught to sing.

• 54:34Billy Corgan?

  But you were writing those melodies.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  Yes, they're very nice melodies.

• 54:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:43Billy Corgan?

  Because I think that what I appreciate about you and, and I, you don't know this, I'm telling you now.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:49Billy Corgan?

  We just met.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:51Billy Corgan?

  But like a year ago, I found myself listening to you again, a lot. Because I was in the middle of making a new Pumpkins record.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  The melodies, maybe?

• 54:59Billy Corgan?

  Yes. Something about the melodies and something about the way you sang sort of drew me back in. I mean, I knew the songs, but I found myself kind of going back for something that I could only get from you. Sorry, let me finish.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  That's very nice. That's very nice of you. I can relate to what you just said.

• 55:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  I'm there.

• 55:19Billy Corgan?

  Right. Well, you're you. What I'm saying is someone who... So, you know, my relationship to you as an artist is in pieces, right? There's me watching you on television in whatever year it was. You know what I mean?

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Year?

• 55:35Billy Corgan?

  Eighty-two or eighty-three, right?

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:38Billy Corgan?

  And you were so ahead of your time in terms of how you presented yourself.

• 55:43Billy Corgan?

  You know, there's that. Yeah. I remember in eighty-two, I'm fourteen, fifteen years old.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  Of course, of course. It was the shock factor.

• 55:51Billy Corgan?

  No, no, no. There was something about you...

• 55:52Speaker 01

  That's what we did.

• 55:54Billy Corgan?

  Yes, but I think it's more valuable than that.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  Well, you're kind.

• 55:58Billy Corgan?

  I can be, yeah.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  You're kind. Yeah, I know that about you. You're very soft-spoken. You just smooth everything out so politely. You would never let me...

• 56:09Billy Corgan?

  But here's my point, because I, again, I found myself paying a lot of attention to you again, starting about a year ago.

• 56:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 56:16Billy Corgan?

  And even when they asked me who I wanted to be a guest on the show, you were like at the top of the list.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  Well, thank you. I'm flattered.

• 56:22Billy Corgan?

  I hope so.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  I am.

• 56:23Billy Corgan?

  Because I think you're great.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Extremely flattered.

• 56:26Billy Corgan?

  So...

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Not because I'm great. I'm flattered because you like me.

• 56:31Billy Corgan?

  We'll work on that, but here's my point.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  You do like me, don't you?

• 56:35Billy Corgan?

  I think you're fantastic.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Okay, good.

• 56:39Billy Corgan?

  I think you're fantastic. Everything I hoped you would be. But we're still in this. Let's get through this part. So, one thing that really struck me, and I remember seeing it, because again, I'm fourteen, fifteen years old. Now, I think I told you, my father was a musician, so when you grow up in a musical world, you look at music differently than people who aren't in a musical world. My father was super critical of musicians. Like, when I was a kid and we'd watch TV, my father would be like, "He sucks. He's great. He's terrible." Right? So, like I said, my father liked Zappa. So, Tim Zappa was good. Everybody else was bad, or whatever. So, I have these memories of watching you. And when we first met today, you know, you're five feet-ish, right?

• 57:24Speaker 01

  One and three-quarter inch.

• 57:25Billy Corgan?

  God bless. We'll say five-two for the sake of posterity.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  I do. On my license, I lie.

• 57:30Billy Corgan?

  Very good. Always punk rock. But my point of saying this is,

• 57:37Billy Corgan?

  I had, I had this memory of you from back then, but now watching the clips, it's like, it's like having a memory over here and then seeing it with modern eyes here. And these pieces came together. And, and the thing I'm after here is, and I think where you're so important in a way that people don't understand your importance was, not only did you present a really radical

• 58:03Billy Corgan?

  image of femininity and freedom at a time where that really wasn't necessarily the case. Now, half the world looks like you.

• 58:12Billy Corgan?

  I mean, you know that. I mean, you must have noticed.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  I recognize a little bit here and there.

• 58:15Billy Corgan?

  God bless. Including some big pop stars, you know, who cribbed from you, like, I'll take that and I'll take that.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Well, everybody has a stylist, babe.

• 58:23Billy Corgan?

  It's all good, but there's only one OG. And so you're, you're an OG in this one particular way. But the other thing is, and this is what I'm saying about this memory I have as, as a young person in a musical family watching you, and not totally understanding what I was seeing, and now being fifty-seven, and now I, now I understand what I was seeing then, and now I can articulate it, and I'm lucky enough to articulate it to you. And that was when you guys played, and I saw you many times on television. When I was a kid, I never went to shows. Everything was through the television. And you guys were on TV a lot for this one particular period of time.

• 58:56Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yes.

• 58:59Billy Corgan?

  When you would stand there with your band, you weren't the star, and they were your band. You weren't the cute chickie with the boy band. You were in the band. And maybe that came from being in Frank's world. You were an equal. You, Warren and Terry.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I.

• 59:20Billy Corgan?

  Does that make sense to you?

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Absolutely. A piece of the pie.

• 59:23Billy Corgan?

  But that's so valuable. You know what I'm saying? Because even nine, ten years later, when we had a woman in our band, people would ask her, what's it like to be a woman in a band? There was this kind of idea of like, why would a woman wanna be in a rock band? And yet, here you are in nineteen eighty-two, not only you in a rock band, right? One of the greatest drummers in the world, you guys totally kick ass. I would refer anybody to, to see your performance from the US Festival. You guys are so good live, it's shocking.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  That was live.

• 1:00:00Billy Corgan?

  I, that's what I'm saying. You guys are so good live, it's shocking how good you are. You know what I'm saying? Your voice, which on record can kinda sound strange because you're, you have such a unique vocal style. You listen to you live, like you're, you're, you're that singer. It's not like a studio thing. Like you are that singer. Like you completely hold your own in this very muscular, physical band. So I'm forever impressed by that part of your talent.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  I have an installed courage from a man's point of view in a man's world. I was raised by an incredible man, my father, that impressed me to be this way. It has all to do with my choices of what I wanna do and when I'm gonna do it. If I'm gonna do it, I'm only gonna do it, yeah, that's right.

• 1:01:02Billy Corgan?

  So when you look back at you on stage at that time.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  I was all me, doing all me at the moment with what I had to do with the pieces I could put together.

• 1:01:13Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Taking apart posters on the wall, having no money to go to the shopping center, having to go to the plastic store and buying a sheet of plastic for a dollar fifty and some tubing about fifty-six cents to take home and tie up the poster around me for all of my five-dollar budget.

• 1:01:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  Okay, I was working with my crafts.

• 1:01:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  I was not looking to impress anybody.

• 1:01:41Billy Corgan?

  But that's what's so beautiful about it.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  But that's what happened. And that's what happens in life when you're doing your thing. When you're just doing you, you become so impressive.

• 1:01:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  If you do it genuinely. And Frank said to me one day, listen.

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  Over another some sandwich in the kitchen. That was like smashed together and he said, "One day, those fellas," he pointed to them, "they were stone cold away, Terry and Warren, "will become extremely jealous of you. "You will rise above and you're going to absorb "what the man teaches you and you will have to replace them. "Don't you ever forget that this is all about you. "It's always going to be all about you." He said, "And remember, "don't sing anything you can't sing in front of me."

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  We just went in the studio that day. I went, "What? "Okay Frank." He said, "Remember, "Frank is dead and buried. "I go to his grave and I say, Frank, "I've replaced them. "I've replaced those replacements "and I'm replacing the replacements "and I'm still singing." It broke me to tears because when someone tells you something that you believe, you never forget it.

• 1:03:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. What part of that did you believe?

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  Every word.

• 1:03:29Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  And I did that. I've did, I've done that. I've gone on and had to leave Terry Bozzio, divorce him, replace him, replace the greatest musicians that I've ever played with in my life, step over them and keep stepping. Why? Because I'm Dale and I do what I do. And that's what I do. If it makes something or somehow an impression on you, well, lucky you.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  I'm just living my life.

• 1:04:04Billy Corgan?

  A ruthless Pisces.

• 1:04:07Speaker 01

  It can't, it can't, it seems that way, but then you know, we melt like an ice cube.

• 1:04:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, that's what I mean.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  Well, I think, I think that's the outside, like fake Pisces. You know, we're all so big, bold and tough and.

• 1:04:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Bye bye, you know, bye bye bye. I love Britney Spears. But when we're such cream puffs.

• 1:04:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  Of the whole thing, but it's astounding the courage.

• 1:04:37Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  That you can find.

• 1:04:39Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's what I think, that's what I think of you, obviously.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  But don't you find, is it, is it, what is that? Like, cause sometimes you can't stop to smell the flowers.

• 1:04:51Billy Corgan?

  I think, I'll give you an honest answer to an honest question. I think that certain people, Pisces do seem to have this more so than most. You have an intuitive sense of a destination, no pun intended, that nobody else can understand. They think you're completely insane, you're going the wrong way. That can't possibly work, don't do it, don't step over that body.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:15Billy Corgan?

  And, and you're guided by something that is a story that you can't even explain. And here we are. Does that sound accurate?

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. It gives me more time to be a little more eccentric, I suppose.

• 1:05:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:31Billy Corgan?

  I told you before we started filming that I love your song Surrender Your Heart to Me. I just think this is such a beautiful song.

• 1:05:39Billy Corgan?

  Maybe it's, I mean, I know your catalog pretty well, it might be your almost sort of, it feels very personal. Does that sound accurate?

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  Terry wrote that song about Dale.

• 1:05:50Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I thought it was the other way around.

• 1:05:53Billy Corgan?

  So what part of you wouldn't surrender your heart to Terry?

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  Ever, never.

• 1:05:58Billy Corgan?

  Never, never surrendered?

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  I never surrender.

• 1:06:00Billy Corgan?

  Why do you think that was?

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  I told you, love is a big question here.

• 1:06:04Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Love is a big question. This is all about.

• 1:06:08Billy Corgan?

  Did you ever surrender your heart to anybody other than your children?

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:06:12Billy Corgan?

  Because?

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  Can't do it.

• 1:06:14Billy Corgan?

  Because?

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  Don't know how.

• 1:06:15Billy Corgan?

  Okay, that's fair.

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  Can't go that deep. I'm too rejected and denied and too behind the eight ball. I'm the ugly duckling at school. I'm the one no one talks to. I'm the one that everybody...

• 1:06:36Billy Corgan?

  Do you still carry that?

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Uh huh. I'm the one that everybody said, "Oh, jeez."

• 1:06:40Billy Corgan?

  So when I tell you how great you are, do you take that in?

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  I take that scary. I take it like, whoa, it's a shock to me. Because I renown you so. And it's like, really? How is that possible?

• 1:06:57Billy Corgan?

  Because you're amazing.

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  Well, that seems like impossible.

• 1:07:01Billy Corgan?

  My favorite artists, there's only one. There's only one you, ever.

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  That's scary. Yeah, that's what I mean.

• 1:07:12Billy Corgan?

  But that's the force of your personality. And your talent.

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  I mean, thank you. I love you. You know, I love you. Do you want to make my movie?

• 1:07:20Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  And write the music?

• 1:07:21Billy Corgan?

  Let's do it.

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  You could write the music.

• 1:07:23Billy Corgan?

  Your movie would be amazing. What a movie that would be.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  But the thing is, you see, there's so many things about that little girl Dale that I think that that's what I made that book for. Is because having my sons of the ripe age of this atomic world of society that is such a whole nother rainbow for me at this level of my lifestyle. You know, when you get to a different time of age, you sense things differently, of course. As you said, when you look back on being 14, 15, of course, you're going to divulge it rather differently now of all the experiences that you've had.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  But me personally speaking, I would like everyone to have the information here so they have it from the horse's mouth.

• 1:08:19Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  Because people assume things and they think things that they don't really know the truth.

• 1:08:26Billy Corgan?

  Well, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you, besides the sort of selfish desire to meet you, was that I...

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  Well, I'm honored.

• 1:08:36Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. Was I feel like your story's not really been told. And even if you go looking for your story, it's not really accurate. And I'm not talking about this happened, this happened, this happened. But how important you are.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Well, you're very kind, see?

• 1:08:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but I'm not being kind now.

• 1:08:52Speaker 01

  Okay, well, yeah, you are. I mean, you're still the same person.

• 1:08:56Billy Corgan?

  If you were a total sociopathic.

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  The same person I met an hour ago.

• 1:09:00Billy Corgan?

  Okay, God bless, but if you were a total sociopathic, you know.

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  I love you.

• 1:09:04Billy Corgan?

  Selfish artist like most artists are, I would still think you were great, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  Well, that's.

• 1:09:09Billy Corgan?

  But part of the reason I think you're great is because of who you are. So like when I see you in nineteen eighty-two, standing on some cold TV set somewhere, wearing what you wore. And you had this way, you still have this way of singing, like with your head kind of cocked up like this.

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  I do, yeah, okay.

• 1:09:28Billy Corgan?

  But, but, but it's to me, it, it, you know, body language is interesting, right? And your body language on stage was always one of courage. It wasn't defiance. It wasn't you. It wasn't look at me, I'm so great. It was I'm up here, I got my band. And I got my song to sing.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  I was very proud of them. I was very proud of those musicians.

• 1:09:52Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but flip the script. You being on stage with those musicians says something about their faith in you.

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  But that's how I could do it.

• 1:10:00Billy Corgan?

  I get that.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  Because I gave them my faith first.

• 1:10:04Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  First, I gave them the praise and the prowess of who they were.

• 1:10:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  And then I gave them Frank.

• 1:10:13Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  I gave them more than love. I gave them a life. When you care about the people that are closest to you, you give them your soul.

• 1:10:27Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  Not a car. Okay?

• 1:10:31Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  So what I could do for them, I did of my passion.

• 1:10:35Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  And I knew by being with them, they would make me better.

• 1:10:41Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  They will teach me.

• 1:10:43Billy Corgan?

  So who's done that for you, though, besides your father?

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  My father, Frank Zappa, Terry Bozzio, and Prince.

• 1:10:51Billy Corgan?

  Okay. I was listening to the, I don't know, it's not fair to call it the Prince record, but the Paisley Park era.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:59Billy Corgan?

  How do you feel about that now, looking at that music?

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  I would have liked to brought Prince in.

• 1:11:09Billy Corgan?

  So he wasn't?

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  He wouldn't. Yeah, he wouldn't. He said, "I'm not coming there. I'm not singing anything. Take my engineer coke, all my guitars, all my stuff. It was all set up." He said, "Go over there."

• 1:11:22Billy Corgan?

  Why do you think he didn't help?

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  He wouldn't. I don't know. He wouldn't. He just said, "No." Stone cold. He didn't want to be influenced. Me. He didn't want to influence me. And I think he, excuse me, I think he wanted to see if I really could do it. I think he was like...

• 1:11:42Billy Corgan?

  But do you think that's maybe in a way why it didn't work? And I don't mean it's terrible. I mean it just doesn't click.

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  Him and I, no, he fired me.

• 1:11:51Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  He quit the record. He stopped the presses. He stopped everything. He wouldn't. I had, I was number two on Billboard, or four, in European...

• 1:12:02Billy Corgan?

  You had like a dance hit or something?

• 1:12:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, dance hit. And I was supposed to go to Europe.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  I was supposed to leave the next day. And instead, my father had a heart attack and he was in Boston.

• 1:12:11Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  So I took a red eye and I left. And I went to Boston. I called him from the hospital. And he said, "What are you fucking doing?" I go, "Well, my father had a heart attack. I had to come and see him." And I'm in Boston. He goes, "No, no, you're leaving tomorrow for this European..." So he flipped out. He started screaming at me and I'm on like a payphone. And he's, I said, "I can't go. I'd love to be here with my father. He's gonna die." And I had to sign the paper for him because I was only his next of kin, blah, blah, blah, blah. He said, "You're fired. It's over. How much money do you want?" I said, "Name me a number." I said, "Fifty thousand." He said, "Tomorrow." Then he hung up.

• 1:12:54Billy Corgan?

  Do you own that record?

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  Not really.

• 1:12:58Billy Corgan?

  Who owns that record?

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  Paisley Park.

• 1:13:01Billy Corgan?

  Because you know, they got that weird title on Spotify, like the original Lady Gaga or some weird bull title.

• 1:13:08Speaker 01

  Everybody, you know, does that. That's so rude.

• 1:13:11Billy Corgan?

  No, it's very rude.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  I, I, I mean, you know, I'm not the original anybody, because first of all, I came before Lady Gaga, so I don't know how I could be the original lady anybody, you know, number one, okay? So, let's get real here.

• 1:13:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:26Speaker 01

  You know, no, no defiance of anything for anybody. I, I respect everyone that has the courage to do anything in the music business at any given time of day, because it's a real hustle. It's, it's not for the, to the faint of heart. This is a real rock and roll gig of life. You commit yourself to this. You may become famous, you may not become famous, but that's the choice.

• 1:13:50Billy Corgan?

  You definitely will go crazy.

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  You have to take the choice to commit or not.

• 1:13:55Billy Corgan?

  Okay, two things to finish. One is from Spring Session M, that's the name of their record, right? Eighty-two?

• 1:14:03Speaker 01

  Uh huh, yes.

• 1:14:04Billy Corgan?

  There feels like to me, and I'm saying this as a, someone who admires you, there seems to be this dissipation of energy, you know what I mean? Like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a life.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  Means, means.

• 1:14:19Billy Corgan?

  There's a ton of life force in the first record. Second record, a little less life force. Third record, a little less.

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  Breakdown of the rock band.

• 1:14:28Billy Corgan?

  Okay, understood. By the time we get to the Prince era record, little less life force. But sitting here, there's no shortage of life force. Was it that you're, you're in this?

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  You're only limited to what your availabilities are at the given moment in time.

• 1:14:48Billy Corgan?

  But I'm saying, I'm asking about your part in it. Are you looking around going, I'm in the wrong place? Or this is, this is how it goes and I'm on this boat and I can't get off? Like, explain to me that, because that's, let me finish my little spiel.

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  I don't know, I don't know where you're coming from with the, with the, with the, you know, the musicianship and the, because, you know, times change.

• 1:15:09Billy Corgan?

  The first record has this tremendous life force to it. And, and the music and these great songs, you know, are testament to that force. Whether it was your relationship to the boys or whatever, you know, Frank's support. But over time, it seems to get a little bit lost. It's not that it's terrible or not. I mean, there's beautiful music being made. But my sense is something's happening. There's a decline or something being pulled back. Did you feel you were being pulled in different directions? Did you feel like you lost control of something? I'm trying to understand what I hear. Because I'm enough of a fan of you to know that if you're all in,

• 1:15:52Billy Corgan?

  that vitality is within the grooves of the music. Am I accurate in my assessment?

• 1:15:57Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yes. You know, I think, and I think a lot of things with rock bands, maybe not the Rolling Stones, but other bands go through changes. Emotions, you grow, you look at things differently. You hear things differently, almost.

• 1:16:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  And when you're a musician.

• 1:16:18Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:16:19Speaker 01

  When you're a musician, the music is changing behind you while you're sleeping.

• 1:16:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  There's new musicians, there's new songs on the radio.

• 1:16:30Billy Corgan?

  And there's people ripping you off and all.

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  Right behind you, they're coming up before you're sleeping. You gotta be thinking double time. Then you gotta go talk to the musicians that are telling you, no, no, no, this doesn't go this way. Then you've got a producer that says, squash, squish, box.

• 1:16:49Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but I'm asking.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  That's how they got that way.

• 1:16:51Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but I'm asking because in my sense, you're all heart.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:16:56Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so did you get your heart broken along the way?

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  Uh, got my, got everything broken. Yeah, everything started going down the drain. No one would listen to me anymore. And I couldn't get my word edgewise. When I came with the songs that I wanted to sing, they said, no, we're not singing those songs. And no, we're getting electric drums and we're not doing it that way. And we're getting this.

• 1:17:25Billy Corgan?

  So let me tell you one other thing that you don't know.

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:17:27Billy Corgan?

  This is between us, but. So when I started focusing on you a year ago, I almost picked up the phone because I wanted to write songs with you because I think you're such a great songwriter.

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  Thank you. Well, we'll write them now.

• 1:17:40Billy Corgan?

  Let's do that now, but my point is, is. It's so cool sitting, talking to you because the thing that I identify so strongly in your music is still in front of me. It hasn't gone anywhere. But I also understand that access to that part of you has everything to do with your heart.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:17:57Billy Corgan?

  So at least I got that part right.

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  You're a tuning fork.

• 1:18:00Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. All right, now I gotta tell you my great Terry Bozzio story for ten.

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  Okay, okay.

• 1:18:05Billy Corgan?

  Do you know this story at all? Have you ever heard this story?

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 1:18:07Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 1:18:09Billy Corgan?

  So, when Jimmy Chamberlain, the drummer from The Pumpkins, was fired by the band in 1996, well, we needed a new drummer, and we had a ninety-date arena tour booked, tickets sold. We had to push the dates back, but we have to pick a drummer. Like, it's like, we gotta pick a drummer now. So our manager at the time was Cliff Bernstein, who managed Metallica. And he calls and he says, "What do you think about Terry Bozzio?" And I'm like, "Holy Terry Bozzio." Like, first of all, why would Terry Bozzio want to be in my band? Let's start there.

• 1:18:42Billy Corgan?

  But I started thinking, "Well, because Jimmy Chamberlain, the Pumpkins drummer, he's still a Pumpkin drummer now, great drummer, and also a friend of Terry's at this point." So, they know each other, and they're both recognized as some of the greatest drummers of all time, so it all kind of is a cool story. But I'm in a situation where I need a great drummer, and the manager calls, "Hey, what do you think about Terry Bozzio?" I said, "Okay."

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  Ninety-six.

• 1:19:04Billy Corgan?

  Ninety-six. So Terry comes, we had a rehearsal space at the time, we called Pumpkinland. So Terry comes in, and he's late, which is fine. I think he got off a flight or something, but he's late, and, you know, hey, it's fine. So, everybody else would come in, we auditioned ten drummers in that period. They would come in, they'd set up their kit, you know what I mean? And, you know, you wait ten minutes, fifteen minutes, and then you play. Terry shows up, say hello, he's got a tech with him, an hour goes by, and we're like sitting there like this, and I'm like, "What the [__] is going on?" So somebody who works for me comes in, I go, "Is he ready?" And they go, "Well, he's still setting up his drums."

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  Oh, right, right.

• 1:19:48Billy Corgan?

  So I go out there.

• 1:19:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:19:50Billy Corgan?

  To just to chat and say hi, and he's literally, and I know you know this, so this is like, this is a drum.

• 1:19:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:59Billy Corgan?

  And I'm watching, I mean, he's going like this.

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:20:07Billy Corgan?

  And there's 14 drums.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:20:11Billy Corgan?

  Now...

• 1:20:11Speaker 01

  Has to be in perfect tune.

• 1:20:12Billy Corgan?

  I don't know, Terry, you know...

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  Every drum is tuned to a note.

• 1:20:16Billy Corgan?

  I understand. So, I'm not gonna tell him, "Hey..."

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  "Hurry up."

• 1:20:20Billy Corgan?

  "Buddy, hurry it up," you know what I mean?

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:20:22Billy Corgan?

  Clock's running. So we wait another hour.

• 1:20:27Billy Corgan?

  Okay, he's finally ready.

• 1:20:31Billy Corgan?

  Two hours we waited. Okay, he's finally ready.

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:34Billy Corgan?

  Now, we had asked each drummer to learn three of our songs. And the first song on our second record is a song called "Chairbrock," it's complicated.

• 1:20:44Billy Corgan?

  And, you know, so Terry's over there and, you know, so I say to him, "Can we play Chairbrock?" And he goes, "Um, I didn't really have time to learn the songs, so if you guys could just play..." By the way, this is a really complicated song.

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:00Billy Corgan?

  "If you guys could just play, I'll kinda..."

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  Play along.

• 1:21:02Billy Corgan?

  Play along.

• 1:21:04Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:21:05Billy Corgan?

  So my bandmates look at me like...

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  That's a lot, that's hard to, that, that, that, that, yeah, that, that's like, what?

• 1:21:11Billy Corgan?

  By the way, I was the one who said, "Let's try out Terry Bozzio," right? So now I'm getting the stink eye from my bandmates.

• 1:21:16Speaker 01

  I know, right.

• 1:21:17Billy Corgan?

  Because they don't give a...

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  That's a lot to handle.

• 1:21:18Billy Corgan?

  Because my bandmates don't give a [bleep]. Who Terry Bozzio isn't the fact that he played with Frank Zappa or in Missing Persons.

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:24Billy Corgan?

  They don't give two [bleeps].

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:21:26Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So, I gotta do a little Terry imitation now.

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  It's a little Terry, it's a little Terry.

• 1:21:33Billy Corgan?

  So, oh, it gets better.

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  Okay, okay.

• 1:21:36Billy Corgan?

  And eventually it involves you.

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  Okay, oh no!

• 1:21:39Billy Corgan?

  Oh yeah. So, so, we start the song, and we're playing, and nothing's happening. He's just like, listening.

• 1:21:49Billy Corgan?

  And, you know, he does that kinda...

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:53Billy Corgan?

  And all of a sudden he goes...

• 1:21:59Billy Corgan?

  And we're still playing.

• 1:22:03Billy Corgan?

  Like the fastest drumming you ever heard in your life.

• 1:22:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:06Billy Corgan?

  Like, what the fuck is happening?

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  What's he doing? Yeah.

• 1:22:09Billy Corgan?

  And he goes, and all of a sudden he goes, he picks up on the groove, and he starts that, that groove that he's got.

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:16Billy Corgan?

  And it is the greatest fucking rock groove I've ever heard in my life. The groove is so ridiculous. He sounds like a mixed record playing live in a room. And the band sounds un-fucking-believable. So I go from, oh my god, it's a disaster. How long does this take?

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 1:22:41Billy Corgan?

  To my god, oh my god, this fucking guy is, this is insane.

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, he does that.

• 1:22:46Billy Corgan?

  I've never heard my band sound like this.

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, he does that.

• 1:22:50Billy Corgan?

  So we do that for three songs. But it's kind of awkward. It's Terry. He hasn't learned. So we get through it and it's kind of that thing like, this is pretty tempting, but how do I tell him to stop the 80s Zappa fills? You know, am I gonna tell Terry Bozzio, don't play that fill? Am I gonna get into that?

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:07Billy Corgan?

  So now we go into the room to chat. We had a like little kind of eating area.

• 1:23:16Billy Corgan?

  I recently recorded your guys' song, Destination Unknown.

• 1:23:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:21Billy Corgan?

  Have you ever heard our version of it?

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:23:24Speaker 01

  Awesome, yeah.

• 1:23:24Billy Corgan?

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:23:25Billy Corgan?

  So I say to Terry, do you mind if I play it for you? And he goes, okay.

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:23:32Billy Corgan?

  So, and I'm a big fan of if you're gonna cover a song, you don't do the cover like the original, what's the point? You're never gonna be better than the original. And I love your song, which is why I'm doing a cover. Right, because I did it my way.

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:46Billy Corgan?

  So I'm sitting on the couch and I press play and here's Terry and I'm here. And Terry sits there like for four minutes and doesn't move a muscle.

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  He listens to it.

• 1:23:57Billy Corgan?

  And I'm, and I'm.

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  He's listening to it.

• 1:23:58Billy Corgan?

  Okay, hold on.

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:23:59Billy Corgan?

  So I'm looking at him kinda like, does he like it? Does he not like it? Because I don't want to offend him. And so the song finishes, and he doesn't say anything.

• 1:24:11Billy Corgan?

  And so I go over to the, like, turn off the cassette, and I kinda look at him, he just sits there like this.

• 1:24:18Billy Corgan?

  So to this day, I don't know if he liked it, didn't like it. He never said anything.

• 1:24:22Speaker 01

  Anything?

• 1:24:24Speaker 01

  Nothing?

• 1:24:25Billy Corgan?

  Nothing. Not a word.

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  Whoa, that's...

• 1:24:31Billy Corgan?

  But, but...

• 1:24:34Billy Corgan?

  To this day...

• 1:24:34Speaker 01

  That's worse than saying something.

• 1:24:36Billy Corgan?

  But to this day, I'll be somewhere, and somebody will say, "Oh, I saw Terry, he said to say hi to you."

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  Aww.

• 1:24:43Billy Corgan?

  Always sweet, through back channels and...

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:46Billy Corgan?

  So, whatever happened in that moment...

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  Wow, that's wild. That's wild.

• 1:24:53Billy Corgan?

  So, so you're making a new record, yes?

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  Well, I just finished that one. It seemed to go by pretty quick, though. I was like, "Oh, my God, it's time to make another record." I was thinking of making a Christmas record.

• 1:25:05Billy Corgan?

  That would be cool.

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  I wanted to make a rock and roll Christmas record and sing goddamn Jingle Bells with the rock stars.

• 1:25:13Billy Corgan?

  I like that.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  That's what I wanted to do.

• 1:25:16Billy Corgan?

  All right.

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  Really, I want to make like a happy record, happy music for everybody.

• 1:25:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:25:21Speaker 01

  You know? The thing I just wanted to tie up about the Hollywood lie was I suffered a real traumatic experience. I was going in to make that record completely different, but these other songs that I have now stored up. But the night I went to play this concert, I'll make, I'll wrap it up with you, you know, tape or not, but I wanted to tell you this, since you told me about what you said to me about your mother. I, something happened to me that hurts deep like that.

• 1:25:56Speaker 01

  The husband I was married to in the middle, Len, he was a big bodybuilder. His picture's in there. Big guy, six, seven. And he was from New York. Went to school in Boston, BU. Became a bodybuilder photographer. And he was the first drummer that ever played with Aerosmith in New York City, in Westchester, New York. But he didn't, couldn't play the drums. So it didn't happen. And he ended up being an entrepreneur. Ends up, we stayed friends for our whole lives. I married him. I married for a few years and we still stay friends. We separated. His birthday's February 27th. Pisces. And we were dear friends forever. I met him when I was 18 years old at the Playboy Club. He took my picture as a Playboy bunny.

• 1:26:41Speaker 01

  And I married him into like, you know, the 37s. Anyway, we stayed together all this time. End up coming back. He marries another girl. They break up, okay? Then this COVID thing happens and he calls me and he says, "Yeah, a place for me to live. My son happens to be managing, managing the apartment building." I go, "As a matter of fact, I'll help you. Come on, you know, it's convenient." And I was knowing he was getting older. His muscles were going down and everything was just, it was, it was, he was feeling the, the, the lack of the power of being a bodybuilder. So I felt pretty bad for him. Moved him into the building. Anyway, make a long story short. Bought him over candies.

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  He played Howard Hughes with me there for two years. Didn't let me in. Finally, one night, I go to a concert and I'm supposed to go in the studio and record the next day. Play the concert. I come home, it's four in the morning. His lights are out. I wake up the next day, his girlfriend's calling me. "Go in his apartment. I think he committed suicide. Wake him up." I get the keys, I go over, find him dead, naked on the floor. He committed suicide, okay? And he told me the night I was leaving for the concert, he was gonna eat a steak, blah, blah, blah, take all these pills and kill himself. And I'm saying, "No, no, no, you can't do that right now. Wait till tomorrow. I'll be back after the concert." Right? So I, that's what happened. And I, I had to go in the studio that day and I went, "Uh-oh. Oh, God. Oh, God.

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  I'm not going in and sing happy songs today." I get to the studio and go, Change of plans here. This record is called Hollywood Lie. And we're gonna talk about the great Gatsby. Who didn't even exist. But he's a figment in our minds. And don't we do that with everyone? We put a figment in our minds. You can be who you are, but you're gonna be who I think you are. Because I like that better. I might think of you in a ballerina outfit later. I don't know. But I'm gonna think of you. And that's gonna be how I feel to cultivate how I love you in my deepest feelings.

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  If you wanna call it love. I don't know what it means. That's why I keep saying to you. A passion for him was so strong. And I saw what he did. He said what he said he'd do. And he did it. His shiny shoes were right there. His tuxedo was ready to get put on. But he passed out before he could get the clothes. And it was almost funny. It was almost, really? This is life.

• 1:29:24Billy Corgan?

  And that changed the trajectory of the... So you're still sitting on all those other songs that you were gonna do?

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  And so I went in the studio and started writing these songs about your life is fading away. You know? You know, you're living alone and you have all the world in your hand as a pot of gold. But you kiss it away for what you think you might get. But doesn't really happen. And then you wake up and it never was that way anyway. And you forgot to tell yourself that. So, that's where I went with that record. And it was an expression that I had to make. Just had to do it. I was so lucky enough that I was let to do that. Because it was a great release for me. And I think all the songs that I've ever written about all the things that happened to me

• 1:30:13Speaker 01

  are because of something that made such an impression upon me. That I want to share my news. I want to share with you. I'm a kind, giving, sharing, understanding, wanna cure the world. Wish I could. Wish I could make this all go away. And everybody understand how just go easy and everything will be alright. If you just give me a hand. Makes it go away, just like that. See?

• 1:30:47Billy Corgan?

  Can't follow that up.

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  I love you. I love you with all my heart.

• 1:30:52Billy Corgan?

  Namaste.

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  I love you. I love you. We make a record anyway.

• 1:30:57Billy Corgan?

  Let's do it.

• 1:30:59Speaker 01

  Right? A happy, a happy record.

• 1:31:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, you're gonna have to work on that with me.

• 1:31:03Speaker 01

  A happy record for the good.

• 1:31:05Billy Corgan?

  I'm really good in minor keys, you know.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  That's okay, but so am I. I'm great in 11.

• 1:31:11Speaker 01

  I can sing anything in 11.

• 1:31:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, you did.

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  I really.

• 1:31:14Billy Corgan?

  You guys did do some weird progress.

• 1:31:16Speaker 01

  I do do that. I do do that. I talk sometimes in 11. Like, you go, "Okay, stop. Breathe."

• 1:31:21Billy Corgan?

  Okay, we're done.

• 1:31:22Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:31:22Billy Corgan?

  They'll come in and talk to us now.

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  You're a genius.

• 1:31:25Billy Corgan?

  Oh, God bless you.

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  You know you are. And I'm honored to be, have had, this time with you here today. Whether we see each other again.

• 1:31:33Billy Corgan?

  Oh, we will.