Al Jourgensen | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan sits down with musical trailblazer Al Jourgensen for an unvarnished dive into four decades of boundary‑pushing music. Jourgensen walks through Wax Trax’s cash‑on‑the‑table sessions, the house‑mix side hustles at Chicago Trax, he unpacks leaving Arista via bankruptcy, reclaiming control on Twitch, and bringing Paul Barker back for what he insists will be Ministry’s final record and tour; the pair compare production habits and trade stories about Timothy Leary’s psychedelic “experiments,” psilocybin‑fueled hangs with Gary Numan, and the grind of touring versus the lure of studio life; they trace the influence of the Chicago scene on countless other artists, and debate writing politics that outlast news cycles; to wrestle with whether creativity comes from a universal signal or something like a digital matrix. https://www.youtube.com/@BillyCorganTMO Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  They'd come into the A room from the B room with literally a bag of cash. I'd have a 38 on the desk. They'd have like a couple guys with 45s. We'd count the money. I'd do a house mix and they'd go on their way. That's amazing. It was like that. That's amazing. And he would do Friday experiments on us. Where we'd shoot up this like new psychedelic that some university had come up with. "Okay, sounds good." "Ah!" I don't think I've ever written a song. I get my songs from the universe. Like, I don't know where they come from.

• 1:43Billy Corgan?

  Here we are.

• 1:45Speaker 02

  Here we are.

• 1:46Billy Corgan?

  We're alive.

• 1:46Speaker 02

  Finally.

• 1:47Billy Corgan?

  We're alive.

• 1:47Speaker 02

  We're still alive. Who knew? I mean, seriously, think back to Chicago days. Like, who would have predicted you and me would be sitting here right now?

• 1:57Billy Corgan?

  Still making music.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59Billy Corgan?

  Still being great.

• 2:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00Billy Corgan?

  I think you're still being great. And, um, happy? Are you happy?

• 2:04Speaker 02

  Big time.

• 2:05Billy Corgan?

  You seem really peaceful.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  I love it out here. I really do. I mean, I love going back to Chicago.

• 2:11Billy Corgan?

  Are you a closet hippie? You're living out in the...

• 2:13Speaker 02

  I'm pretty much a hippie, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Just old hippie. Just do my stuff. Don't cause problems. Pay my taxes.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  You know.

• 2:23Billy Corgan?

  You're gonna make headlines.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  Do the, yeah.

• 2:25Billy Corgan?

  Al, Jourgensen said he doesn't want to cause problems.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  Do the occasional anti-Trump album and then, you know, just keep my head low. It's, it's all good.

• 2:34Billy Corgan?

  So recently you've been touring with Gary Newman, Frontline Assembly?

• 2:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37Billy Corgan?

  Seems like those shows are going really well.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  That was so, so much fun. I mean, I, I never knew that Gary and I would get along.

• 2:45Billy Corgan?

  He's just the loveliest guy.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  So what?

• 2:47Billy Corgan?

  Total sweetheart.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  Well, on, on top of that, but then we found a love for psilocybin together.

• 2:58Speaker 02

  So the tour went swimmingly.

• 3:01Billy Corgan?

  It's like, well, here's the question. Do the synth, the synths sound better on psilocybin?

• 3:06Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely.

• 3:08Billy Corgan?

  You hear the phasing?

• 3:09Speaker 02

  Yes, they do. Yes, they do.

• 3:12Billy Corgan?

  I love that.

• 3:15Billy Corgan?

  Hoping for the Masses is the recent album I was listening to. Very, very strong.

• 3:22Billy Corgan?

  I'm a huge fan. I think I've told you that in the past, but I, I just think, you know, somehow you've reinvented yourself 800 times, but you've always been you, which is interesting. I think you're one of the only people that's been able to do that.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm kinda like a Walmart Bowie.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 3:42Billy Corgan?

  I think, I think you're better than that, but I'll, I'll let you define yourself.

• 3:44Speaker 02

  It's like, you know, you reinvent yourself, but obviously don't have the bona fides of Bowie. But like, you just keep, keep doing what floats your boat.

• 3:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  You know, because otherwise it's boring and otherwise you should get some kind of consultant job or something, you know?

• 4:05Billy Corgan?

  What gives you fire at this point? Because, you know, we've both been through these weird changes in the music business and now we're into streaming land.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  Well, the, the fire for me right now is the finish line.

• 4:17Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  Because I'm doing it on my own terms, which is nice that you can, you can get out of like a 40-year occupation and get out on your own terms.

• 4:29Speaker 02

  And to have Paul Barker back in the fold, and to do a final record and tie a final bow on the whole thing, and then do a final tour, and really a final tour, not like a

• 4:42Billy Corgan?

  Not the wrestling version.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, Slayer, Motley Crue, everyone comes back a year later, you know.

• 4:46Billy Corgan?

  No, I, when you say it's the final, I believe.

• 4:49Speaker 02

  I'm done, yeah. And, and it's important that it's done because there's really not many more statements to make. I think we've reached the point of our, of what we've built as a genre. And, and that's about, you know, after that, it's superfluous. I think bringing Barker back in for the last one is gonna make it like, kinda retro, but also really cool that we haven't jammed with each other in 25 years.

• 5:19Billy Corgan?

  But there's something about your music that's always got a futurism built in. So I, even when I listen to stuff, it doesn't, it's hard to explain. You never feel retro to me.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  Well, thank you.

• 5:31Billy Corgan?

  It's a compliment, but I'm saying is somehow you, you were able to sort of land ahead. You know, sometimes when you watch an old science fiction movie and they're, they're guessing the future? Like, you guessed the future right. Like, it's scary how accurate you were in guessing the future. You were calling this in the 80s, and here we are.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 5:49Billy Corgan?

  So you must feel like Nostradamus.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Well, it's funny, this is why, like, as much as I hate playing the old stuff live, because as you know, it's just like, it becomes tedious. I wanna work on the new stuff.

• 6:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  I wanna expose the people to the new stuff, but, uh, the old stuff. But then I listen to like, what's going on, and I see the old stuff is current still, so.

• 6:14Billy Corgan?

  That's kinda my point.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:16Billy Corgan?

  No one's really beat you at your own game, and I think that's interesting.

• 6:19Speaker 02

  Well, and that's why we're leaving on our own footing.

• 6:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Which is great.

• 6:24Billy Corgan?

  2019, Pre-S scripture, right?

• 6:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:27Billy Corgan?

  A book I contributed to.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:29Billy Corgan?

  Thank you, that was a, that was a nice honor. I told the story about the first time I, I'd seen you live, but I saw you in the flesh. I was tripping on LSD in the metro. And I looked up

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Sounds about right.

• 6:42Billy Corgan?

  From, from some sort of LSD revelry, and there you were. And you not only looked like Satan for a hot second, I thought you were Satan. And I thought, and I knew it was you. It wasn't like I was like, oh my God, it's Satan. I was like, oh my God, Al is Satan. Satan is Al.

• 6:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:58Billy Corgan?

  So we're forever bonded in that particular way.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's, but in reality, it's so much the opposite. Everyone who knows me knows I'm like the most chill, old hippie dude, like just, yeah. I, I, I don't, I don't want the like, you know, this kind of like, I'm more like Rivendell and less like Mordor.

• 7:21Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  All right.

• 7:22Billy Corgan?

  That makes sense. It does. Tolkien all day. Twenty fourteen Lost Gospels autobiography. Is there gonna be more book or is that, is that your one book?

• 7:32Speaker 02

  Uh, well, that, that book was basically pretty weird in the sense that, uh, my ex-wife set it up with, uh, this journalist that just came by with like two gallons of vodka and put on a tape recorder and just let me go for a weekend.

• 7:51Billy Corgan?

  So it's you kind of rambling, yeah.

• 7:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just rambled a bunch of shit and then, uh, then they had their lawyers all check it out, make sure they weren't gonna get sued, as you know, blah, blah, blah. And they're like, yeah, yeah, this all checks out. And so they put it out. Me personally, I've never read the book, so.

• 8:09Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I haven't read it either. I, I'm glad you're telling me because I, I didn't know the book existed, so.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  You're gonna have a book soon.

• 8:15Billy Corgan?

  Well, I'm working on it, but.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Well, make sure you do it right. That's it. Don't, don't do it.

• 8:21Billy Corgan?

  Are you gonna do it right? If that's not right, what is right? Are you gonna do it right?

• 8:24Speaker 02

  No, I'm probably, I'm just over it. I'm, I'm literally like, uh, I've accomplished everything I wanted to accomplish. I've done everything I've wanted to do. I've made enough money and this and that. I just wanna make sure that this last project, this last tour, this last album is really good. And then really, I have no problem saying goodbye to this.

• 8:46Billy Corgan?

  It's very interesting.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  None, zero, because I, you know, for instance, like live touring, like I have friends like, you know, Robyn Zander, Billy Gibbons or something from ZZ Top Cheap Trick. They, they keep playing at seventy-five.

• 9:02Billy Corgan?

  I just saw Rick and, and Robyn the other day.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  I, I love those guys, but they still get, it's, it's not for the money. They still get like a rush from playing in front of a crowd. I don't even hear the crowd when I'm on stage. I have no idea if we're liked or not liked. Seriously.

• 9:25Billy Corgan?

  I believe you, that's why I'm laughing.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  All I know is whether we did the show that we were programmed to do, that we've rehearsed hard to do. And if we do that, then I... So, in other words, I don't get like this, I need this rush to come back on stage. I don't even hear it. So, yeah, I don't need that. And then with the studio thing, I really think that we've reached a level of what we've done to where do this last record with some new influences, new old influences with Parker. And then just, I'm happy with that.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Because I really enjoy just doing soundtracks and film scores.

• 10:16Billy Corgan?

  Am I right, because I feel we're similar? Do you consider yourself a studio rat first?

• 10:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 10:23Billy Corgan?

  I think that's where both of us want to be. In fact, that's where we got to know each other best was I was working in one studio and you were working in the next. We'd come say hi every day. I think if it was up to us, that's all we would ever do is just be in the studio.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  But I don't want to confine it to a ministry structure. So, I'd love to be in the studio. And I own a studio in my house, an SSL place. Next time you're out here, please come to our studio.

• 10:52Billy Corgan?

  That sounds cool.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  And then we'll do some stuff, see what happens with it.

• 10:59Billy Corgan?

  So, I kind of want to dive in here, so bear with me. First time I saw you live was Medusa's, and I looked up the date. And I was shocked. Medusa's, June 1986.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Eighty-six, that sounds about right, yeah.

• 11:13Billy Corgan?

  You had short, cropped blond hair, combed back, and you had a crescent earring, I remember this very distinctly. And shockingly, there's videotape of the show online.

• 11:26Speaker 02

  On Medusa's, at Medusa's.

• 11:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's like a VHS from the back of the room.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 11:32Billy Corgan?

  And you guys were set up on some kind of stage. There was maybe 800,000 people there and I was there. And because I, you know, I was just a young musician. I didn't know anybody, you know, I would go to Medusa's occasion, but I didn't know anybody like, I couldn't call anybody. So I bought my ticket and came to see you play. And I'd been listening off the first record and we'll get to that. But the Twitch thing is interesting because that's when you start to make this transition from whatever everybody thought you were gonna be to kind of you're on your way to becoming what you came.

• 12:02Speaker 02

  Whatever I was gonna be forced to be.

• 12:05Billy Corgan?

  Sure, sure.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  Into what I wanted to be.

• 12:07Billy Corgan?

  But I think what's, I think what's interesting about that is, is, is I, I actually witnessed you at this moment of change.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:14Billy Corgan?

  If that's a fair word to use.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, there was definitely a transition going on there.

• 12:19Billy Corgan?

  Right. Did you, I don't want to necessarily go too much into the Arista stuff because it's its own thing. We could talk about it later a little bit, but were you signed by Clive Davis?

• 12:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:30Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Up, up in his second floor office, you had to go up a spiral staircase and sit up there with giant pictures of Janis Joplin and Miles Davis behind him and like, yeah.

• 12:43Billy Corgan?

  I had my own Clive moments.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:45Billy Corgan?

  I, I understand.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  It was pretty intimidating.

• 12:48Billy Corgan?

  Hello.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  When you're like 21, 22 years, like, ah.

• 12:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I think, I don't know how you feel about Clive and we can talk about Clive if you want, but I think it's interesting that he saw your talent, you know, at that age. Like, he wasn't wrong about you. You're a super talented person. He saw that and he does have an eye for talent.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  He does have an eye for talent, but what, what really pisses me off is that, especially during the 90s, or the 80s, I'm sorry. Well, the 90s had happened as well, but like, they, they signed people for their talent and then they just try and crush that talent by putting them into a mold of what, whatever is the flavor of the month. So, a lot of the stuff that we did for, that they signed us for, wound up on Twitch and Rape and Honey.

• 13:43Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know that. Okay, that makes sense.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Right, because, but then, they signed us for that, but they didn't want to release that. Then they assigned producers and makeup artists and cut your hair and this and that.

• 13:57Billy Corgan?

  And they put you through the system, yeah.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  Right. And, and I just decided after that record, that nah, this, this isn't working.

• 14:06Billy Corgan?

  So how did you extricate yourself from the Arista deal?

• 14:08Speaker 02

  I, I had to go bankrupt. It was, it was brutal.

• 14:12Billy Corgan?

  That can't be an easy thing to do, be like, I want out.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, at, at 22 years old and you're already like completely jaded and disillusioned.

• 14:20Billy Corgan?

  Well, not only that, you had enough success on the first record that I can't imagine they wanted to just let you walk.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  Uh, they didn't. So, I had to fight for it, but I knew that that's not the paradigm and, and, and, you know, that I wanted to work within. So, uh, so yeah, we, I, I just like got out of there and then concentrated on Wax Trax.

• 14:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  To where we had complete freedom.

• 14:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And for those who don't know, Wax Trax was a localized Chicago label, but really specialized in, in this coming type of music, but now people call electronica or industrial music, but, but at the time, it was like, there wasn't even a word for it, really.

• 14:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:59Billy Corgan?

  And was signing, you know, that's where I first heard Front 242 and...

• 15:03Speaker 02

  Front 242, Liebock, Young Gods, Ministry, Palehead, Homo DJs, Cogs. This, all that stuff came out during that period of time.

• 15:14Billy Corgan?

  And I was in the clubs hearing that stuff, like literally the day it was coming out. So I was at ground zero of what you were creating with Wax Trax.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  Right. That, that was a fun time in Chicago.

• 15:24Billy Corgan?

  It was amazing.

• 15:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:26Billy Corgan?

  And it would be interesting, because I'd come to Medusa's, you know, whatever, 19 years old.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:30Billy Corgan?

  And somebody would say, oh, I'll just put out this new track.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, we were just putting out...

• 15:35Billy Corgan?

  And it'd be like, is it Ministry? No, it's some other, you know, there's like 8,000 different names. And, uh, and, you know, and you'd buy the record or, usually it was some hot goth girl had the records, because I couldn't afford them. So you'd go over to her house and it'd be like, you look at the records, like Hermes Pan. You know what I mean? You had all these pseudonyms, but it was really interesting chasing the bouncing ball because you not only were you productive with what you were creating under the Ministry name, but you were doing all this other stuff, which was similar, but different enough that you were like, you know, I would chase you down the different rabbit holes that you were going down.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  You know, what was funny is during that time as well, at Chicago Track Studios, we had the A room and then all the Frankie Knuckles House stuff was in the B room. And, and the burgeoning, you know, paths of rap were starting and different things.

• 16:29Billy Corgan?

  Well, even, even House alone, Chicago House.

• 16:31Speaker 02

  House, yeah. So I did so many mixes for those House things.

• 16:37Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  No, because I'm not credited. It was like literally, they'd come into the A room from the B room with literally a bag of cash. I told them, I want unmarked dollar bills. And they'd bring in a bag of cash. I'd have a 38 on the, on the desk and they'd, they'd have like a couple guys with 45s. We'd count the money. I'd do a House mix and they'd go on their way.

• 17:03Billy Corgan?

  That's amazing.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  It was like that.

• 17:05Billy Corgan?

  That's amazing. That's amazing. So illuminate me on this point because it's a little hard to follow trying to do research. When you did the deal with Seymour Stein and Sire, you made sure that Wax Trax was part of that deal.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 17:22Billy Corgan?

  Can you give me the kind of general version of that? Because I think that's fascinating.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, basically Wax Trax was going bankrupt because nobody was buying this stuff, but we were their bell cow. And so, and after my experience with, with Clive and Arista, I didn't want to sign this. So Seymour Stein kept chasing me around the Eastern Seaboard, like literally showing up at every show. And at every show, I'd make a new demand like, okay, well, if I'm gonna sign with this, then I need a fair light.

• 17:57Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but when he shows up, are you playing stuff from the first album or new stuff? Or what are you playing at that point?

• 18:02Speaker 02

  Both.

• 18:03Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Actually mainly new stuff.

• 18:06Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  To be honest, we really hadn't played any of this retro stuff for years up until recently in Pasadena.

• 18:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  So, and that seemed to work out well. We've updated it and all that. But anyway, Seymour would come by and then one day he'd come by and backstage, because he's Seymour Stein, he somehow floats between the raindrops and gets backstage and just says, you know, I really wanna sign you. And I'm just like, wow, okay, I need this. And he'd agree to it. And then, and I'd go, I'll let you know. Then he'd show up at our next show and then I'd have a new request. And then he'd show up. And pretty soon it started to get to be a pretty hefty thing. And then finally it was just like, oh, by the way, you gotta get Wax Trax out of debt so we can continue or like what we're doing in Chicago.

• 18:57Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  And so that was part of the deal.

• 19:00Billy Corgan?

  That's amazing.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  So I took a lot less money, kept Wax Trax going. And then we just kept doing like our crazy stuff. You know, anything from Cabaret Volterra would be in town or Nitro Rev or, you know, you name it. It was all on Wax Trax.

• 19:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Those were, those were our salad days.

• 19:20Billy Corgan?

  It was amazing. I mean, I was, like I said, I was there. It was a really, use the fancy word, a fecund period, you know, which is basically what grows out of shit, right? But, you know, Chicago in the, in the, in the mid to late eighties wasn't the cultural hub of the world. We were basically...

• 19:37Speaker 02

  No, I mean, well, of course, like with punk rock in New York, with the Ramones, Blondie and this and that and Richard Hell. And then all of a sudden it shifted to like... Chicago industrial.

• 19:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Then we had people like, like I said, like Cabaret Voltaire flew in from Sheffield, England to like just work at that studio. We had, we had bands like-

• 19:59Billy Corgan?

  Were you kind of producing these artists that were coming in or shadow producing?

• 20:03Speaker 02

  Or in their sessions or working with them or something, but you know, always, always around.

• 20:08Billy Corgan?

  Were you kind of like, for lack of a better word, kind of doing A and R? You know, we were kind of overseeing?

• 20:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:15Billy Corgan?

  So your fingerprints was on a lot of that stuff?

• 20:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:17Billy Corgan?

  I always thought that, but I wasn't sure.

• 20:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, but you can even take bands like Nine Inch Nails and Filter and things like this. They came to Chicago tracks because they heard the music that was coming out of there. Like I said, bands from Europe would fly over there to, to record there because they heard what was coming out of there. And, and basically I would just block book the room for a year. So whatever was in there was in there and then we'd figure it out.

• 20:48Billy Corgan?

  It was kind of your call?

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:49Billy Corgan?

  Ah, okay. That makes sense. Explains a lot because again, I'm just on the other side of it, like listening. Either, you know, I'd be at the clubs, I'd hear stuff or some girl's apartment, you'd hear stuff, you know?

• 21:03Billy Corgan?

  You, I saw some stuff where you're talking about, you know, post Arista, you're, you're poor and, you know? But at the same time, you know, my sense is you were very fully committed to music. Is, is it, was it like a 24 hour a day? Like were you living it?

• 21:20Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, I became that, uh, for certain, uh, you know, from a four track in an attic to full-time block booked, you know, every year. I mean, you know, that, that obviously affects relationships and all that stuff. But you know, that's why, yeah, I was fully committed.

• 21:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 21:42Billy Corgan?

  So you sign with Sire and you start working on what becomes Land of Rape and Honey, right? Is that correct?

• 21:51Speaker 02

  Well, actually Twitch was the first one, but I made them-

• 21:54Billy Corgan?

  Oh, sorry. My bad. Yeah.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  No, no, but what I had them do, I'm always thinking long term. So Twitch, I knew I didn't have my chops down yet and I really liked Adrian Sherwood's production. So I said, well-

• 22:09Billy Corgan?

  Who done big Depeche Mode stuff?

• 22:10Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 22:11Billy Corgan?

  It was pretty cool at the time.

• 22:13Speaker 02

  And Noybaut and stuff.

• 22:14Billy Corgan?

  Okay, yeah.

• 22:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So I was like, yeah, I want that guy to do it. That was one of my final things. When Seymour would come by, I'd go, no, I want a Fairlight. And next time it's like, no, I want Waxjack to be bailed out. Next time it's like, no, I want Adrian Sherwood as producer. And Sherwood wouldn't come there, so I went to London and lived there for a long time, about a year and a half, and got a lot of stuff done there and learned so much. I mean, my whole thing with Sherwood was like, basically, I remember at one point I had so many songs that I just gave him the songs. It was kind of like a Graham Parsons, Keith Richards, like Wild Horses thing where they traded it for a gram of coke, you know?

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Well, I had five extra songs that we had for Twitch that I was just like, they had this shit that we were doing to keep up at night and work, you know, constantly called Wiz, which was amphetamine sulfate. And so I basically traded five ministry songs-

• 23:21Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my God.

• 23:22Speaker 02

  For-

• 23:23Billy Corgan?

  Some whiz.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  Two ounces of whiz and engineering lessons from Sherwood, like literally showed me how to run the board. So then he could go off. Like, for the last half of that record for Twitch, he was just like, I'm out of here. You know what you're doing. He just take it away. So, yeah, but-

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was fun. I mean, it's like, once I got to know the board, then I also got to engineer other people like Lee Perry and stuff like that. Just weird stuff that would come into the studio at Southern Studios in London and just be engineer and get the engineer's point of view. I know I'm not the producer, but like, to run the board and all that stuff. And, yeah, as opposed to being like the lead singer or whatever, you wear a lot of different hats. It's who you know.

• 24:16Billy Corgan?

  You know, I'm no fan of music intelligentsia, critics. And one of the things that really irritates me, as someone who loves and respects you, is they don't really understand your contribution to music. They understand your contribution maybe from the ministry side, but I think where you get short shrift, people don't understand your influence as a producer. Like, you've had an influence on me and how I produce my records.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  Oh, I just listened to your last record and we produce the same way.

• 24:48Billy Corgan?

  Oh, thank you. That's a big compliment.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  It's, that was really, this new record of yours is, production-wise, sound as hell. I mean, it's clean.

• 25:00Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. But back to you. Your contribution, it sounds like such a fucking boring word, but your influence as a producer, I think, is as great as your contribution as a music artist.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  Nobody knows that.

• 25:16Billy Corgan?

  Well, I do.

• 25:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, okay.

• 25:17Billy Corgan?

  Which is why I'm bringing, no, but I'm saying, it irritates me, and you don't need me to defend or be your proselyte, but my point is, is it irritates me because I think musicians know. Musicians know.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  And that's all I care about.

• 25:30Billy Corgan?

  Okay, good. Well, that's good because, or maybe not, but I'm saying is, you got a mad level of street respect from the music world because we know what you brought to the table.

• 25:40Speaker 02

  Right. And that's perfectly fine with me. Like, for instance, Trent Reznor started out as a roadie for us.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  He went on, next thing I know, he's on the cover of Rolling Stone and stuff and we're still slogging in the trenches. His roadie was Marilyn Manson, which then overtook him, which was, so it's kinda like this tree.

• 26:04Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 26:05Speaker 02

  But.

• 26:06Billy Corgan?

  But you're the OG.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Not one minute was I ever bitter about that. I cheered them on. I'm like, this is great.

• 26:14Billy Corgan?

  This is a spiritual question, but how are you okay with all that? Cause at times, it would annoy me, and it's no disrespect to Trent, but it would annoy me when you would read articles and they would act like Trent invented this. And, and, and you've always given, you know, you've always cited your influence. It's not like you pretended that you invented it. I would say you're the person who put the pieces together.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Right, right, yeah. Basically, I call what I do collage rock.

• 26:41Billy Corgan?

  But you're the first person who did it in a way where someone like me, who didn't know anything about that type of music, went, "I understand what he's doing."

• 26:51Speaker 02

  No, for not one second did I ever feel like bitter or anything about the success of other people. I was actually glad to see them go on their way and, and to carry on what we were trying to do from the beginning of Wax Trax.

• 27:08Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  Which was basically upend music and the music industry.

• 27:13Billy Corgan?

  Well, you did.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  Well, to a certain extent. We're still back to the same old crap now. So it's, you know, we, we were a bump in the road, just like grunge was a bump in the road. Whatever the bump in the road, flavor of the month, we were flavor of the month for a while and, and that's good, but you have to take it into perspective and, and then, especially if you know the people, you know, Trent's just a great guy. So why would I be upset with him, you know, doing that? And Trent never said like, "I invented this stuff." Trent was always very magnanimous and said like, "No, I, I, I learned my chops from these knuckleheads."

• 27:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Alright, so, yeah, I mean, I, there's, and the media loves to build these like feuds and this and that, blah, blah, blah, and nah.

• 28:13Billy Corgan?

  Eighty-eight, Land of Rape and Honey. Now here's Land of Rape and Honey.

• 28:18Billy Corgan?

  You're starting to do it your way.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:20Billy Corgan?

  You're running your world, and now it starts to really work.

• 28:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:23Billy Corgan?

  I mean, that must have felt-

• 28:24Speaker 02

  We figured it out.

• 28:25Billy Corgan?

  But it must have felt pretty good, right?

• 28:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, it was a lot of hard work. Trust me. This was, this was taking something that, you know,

• 28:38Speaker 02

  you were schooled in, and then just throwing it all out, and literally doing, instead of copying another band-

• 28:47Billy Corgan?

  Beatles.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  Or another music or something.

• 28:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  I went for authors, and William Burroughs and Brian Gisong,

• 28:58Speaker 02

  their cut-up method of words to make sense

• 29:05Speaker 02

  universally by just like, just random words making sense.

• 29:09Billy Corgan?

  Was Genesis part of that logic too, or?

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Jen and I have, yeah, yeah, we, a little bit, but he wasn't part of the sessions. Burroughs was.

• 29:19Billy Corgan?

  I just meant it more in terms of like, let's call it, and it's a little bit of a joke, but like, the psychic collective kind of heads in a certain direction.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. No, he was, he was a factor in that, as far as influence. But when I decided, no, I'm sticking with this, but back then, we didn't have the technology and, oh, man, that was like, you know, three weeks for one song, literally, physically editing.

• 29:48Billy Corgan?

  You were way ahead of the technology because you were doing stuff that nobody could do because it didn't work like that.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  With old-school technology.

• 29:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I know, that's what I'm saying. Even in the 90s, when we would try to do certain stuff, it was like impossible.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:00Billy Corgan?

  This is kind of the start of the MTV version of things, right? I'm Not Crazy, right?

• 30:04Speaker 02

  No. Yes.

• 30:06Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 30:06Speaker 02

  No, you're not crazy.

• 30:07Billy Corgan?

  Okay. And here comes like these terms, industrial metal and, you know, or industrial or-

• 30:13Speaker 02

  You remember how many different charts they had back then? It was ridiculous.

• 30:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:19Speaker 02

  Like, in the mid 90s, like, I, I can't even remember the names of all them, but like, you'd be number one on this chart of this specific genre. You know, that's what started emo and this.

• 30:31Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  There must have been 15 different charts, so I just stopped.

• 30:37Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  Stop. Just stop.

• 30:41Billy Corgan?

  So it kind of goes two different ways here in my mind. One is that you were born in Cuba and your family left before the revolution. And I think it's probably a lazy take to say that has something to do with your sort of your views on the world.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  No, it's actually spot on.

• 31:00Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so let, hold that thought for one second. And then the other side is, is it's about this time that you, maybe because of being inspired by people like Geis and Burrows, you start to put yourself through a version of hell. You know what I mean? From my perspective, and I only know you a little bit, but I always saw you in the lineage of that. Like, I am the experiment, you know? I'm willing to put myself through these... Well, you tell me.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  No, I lived the experiment.

• 31:33Billy Corgan?

  That's what I'm saying. Were you inspired by that crowd? Was that part of your thinking, or was that just who you were?

• 31:38Speaker 02

  Well, I think, yeah, that type of thinking got me into the situation where I was the experiment, where I lived with Tim Leary for a long time. And he would try out new strains of MDA or whatever, and I would inject it in front of him, and he would take notes. And all this crazy stuff went on. We started out with three guinea pigs. It was me, Mike Scocia, and Gibby Haynes from the Butthole Surfers at Timothy Leary's house. And he would do Friday experiments on us.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  We'd shoot up this, like, new psychedelic that some university had come up with. "Okay, sounds good." Like, 10 minutes later, you're like seeing spiders converge on you and stuff. It was crazy, but then there were some good trips too and all that, but I liked being the experiment of it, and I also liked... Being away from the band at Tim's, like, I quit the band for about a year and a half. And I think Barker and Chris Connolly tried to resurrect the band with Chris Connolly as singer.

• 32:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I seem to have a faint memory of that.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  But it didn't really go well until I was ready, and then Tim just started. It just gets to the point where like every Friday becomes like, oh my god, no, no, no. I'm over this. And so I'm like, hey, guys, I think I'm gonna come back to the band now.

• 33:21Billy Corgan?

  But take one step back, because I'm fascinated by this, because, you know, unlike probably most people in the world who are a fan of yours, I was actually sort of around this atmosphere around you. The Legend of Owl in Chicago was probably bigger than the real Owl, but the Legend took on a life of its own. You'd hear these crazy stories and... But from the inside, where most people, when they would talk about you, you know, it'd be kind of like, I'd shake in their head, like, can you believe this happened? But I always saw you in this lineage of, like, let's call it the Mystic Visionaries or something. Did you see yourself in that way?

• 34:01Speaker 02

  I did after, post-Tim.

• 34:04Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  Then it's like...

• 34:06Billy Corgan?

  But say like the land of rape and... Because you, and you tell me, because you were there.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  No, we were still trying to find our way. I mean, we did something that was not done before, is like, basically cross-pollinating author techniques with music techniques and this and that, and put it together and this and that, and put politics in there too. But we didn't know what we were doing.

• 34:33Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 34:34Speaker 02

  And even the next one, then we started adding more of a metal element when Mike Scoscia joined the band. And we still didn't know what we were doing, because we're still clawing our way around, trying to figure it out. And then by the time that we got popular after Psalm 69, with Phil Pig, everything started falling apart, and I just, pretty much, that record is mine. Like, ran out of politics, ran out of band members. Just kind of me in a studio and...

• 35:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, a couple of people came in and contributed stuff, but I just remember being stuck there for a long time doing Phil Pig and everybody hating it when it came out.

• 35:23Billy Corgan?

  I loved that record.

• 35:24Speaker 02

  No, but when it came out, that's what got me dropped from Warner Brothers, was that record.

• 35:29Billy Corgan?

  I listened, I don't remember when it came out, but I listened to it for months after it came out. I really liked it. It was like Stuck in My Car was one of those records where I wouldn't take it out of the CD player.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 35:37Billy Corgan?

  And when I first got to know you a little bit, I was like, I love this record. And you were almost like, really?

• 35:41Speaker 02

  I couldn't believe it. It's like, everyone hated it, but now everyone loves it.

• 35:45Billy Corgan?

  It's a great record.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  This is, this is the thing about like, what you were alluding to before with like, I always seem to be either two or three years ahead of, like you said, Nostradamus. Like, you know, so I don't worry on my vocals when I'm singing something political that it's gonna be outdated before it comes out. I pretty much, I'm sure, what I'm saying is, it's also a little bit more universal than just like, I hate Trump, I hate Trump, I hate Trump, or something, you know?

• 36:20Billy Corgan?

  On a loop.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  Okay, great. Yeah, right? So, so I know, I know that's, that's gonna go well, but, you know, the thing with, with recording is like, you're just doing what feels good at the time, especially musically.

• 36:49Speaker 02

  But what I find is that, alright, so my lyrics are okay, a couple of years ahead of time, but then our music, because we just do what feels good, is never in sync with what flavor of the month is.

• 37:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  You know what I'm saying?

• 37:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  So, we're always a couple of years behind and a couple of years ahead, and so Ministry has never had that splash hit kinda thing, you know? But we just mind our own business.

• 37:23Billy Corgan?

  I guess when I'm after, I'm not trying to belabor the point, but, you know...

• 37:29Billy Corgan?

  Celebrity is its own weird thing and you've kicked at it the entire time.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  I hate it.

• 37:37Billy Corgan?

  Okay, that's a fair thing. So, and then on the other hand, and I guess I'm speaking more personally, and again, I only know you a little bit, but it seemed like you kind of set yourself on fire.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, purposely.

• 37:51Billy Corgan?

  Right, okay.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, little child tantrum, like, "I don't wanna do this anymore." "Gasoline, I'm moving to Timothy Leary's. I quit the band."

• 38:05Billy Corgan?

  Right, but the mystical side of that, and maybe it's not the right word you would use, but I find that fascinating because in American life, there aren't a lot of people that do that. And it's like either live to talk about it, or have a work product to demonstrate the path through madness, or the keyhole, or, you know, Lewis Carroll. You know, you've, as an artist and auteur, you've always sort of shown what you've seen through the keyhole, right? Is that fair?

• 38:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm just basically going through life with, okay, this is a dated thing, but like with a Polaroid camera.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  "That's a song, that's a song, that's a song, that's a song." And leave it at that. But trying to make it so, instead of just like, what has caused a reaction of this photo at that time, which dates it? Why is the photo making people so... So there's always a level deeper than just taking pictures and doing a song.

• 39:20Speaker 02

  Why am I taking this picture? Why are people gonna be attracted to this picture or repulsed by this picture?

• 39:28Billy Corgan?

  Which is, in my estimation, is the same thing. That's what people don't understand about art.

• 39:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 39:33Billy Corgan?

  If it engenders love and attraction or repulsion, it's really the same energy. It just goes in different ver- ways, directions.

• 39:42Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 39:43Billy Corgan?

  You know, you've been very effective at attraction and repulsion.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I poke a few bears.

• 39:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but what I'm saying is, it's very skilled. And part of that, and something I admire about you, that I don't have the same faculty. Maybe it's a lack of confidence. But I always feel you've been really okay with what I call perfectly imperfect. And that's like you say, the snapshot. You know what I mean? It's like, it's a moment in time. And because it's the moment in time, it's perfect even if it's chaos. Or it's in, you know, it's not about, is it in tune? And it's, here's that moment.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  Right, but the key question is, why is it that moment?

• 40:23Billy Corgan?

  Yes, okay, so...

• 40:24Speaker 02

  This is where you gotta go. And not only that, I mean, all bands.

• 40:29Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  I have a good friend, Jello Biafo, with the Dead Kennedys. And he was so succinct on capturing the moment of whatever he did.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  But then, as you listen to it 20, 30 years later, outside of a couple of songs, he gets so specific with the snapshot that people of a different generation have no clue to what the references are. So you need to make it more universal and why you wanted to take the snapshot.

• 41:09Billy Corgan?

  Are you conscious of that universality when you're working?

• 41:12Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Matter of fact, I've never written a song in my life. I literally...

• 41:19Speaker 02

  I don't know how, but like uh my antenna, you know, gets transmitted stuff. And then it's my job to translate that.

• 41:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  And to, and, and I'm only a couple of times in my life have I ever like met the transmission that I get, but I've never sat down and wrote a song.

• 41:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  Jammed with people and like, well, I shouldn't say never, there's, there's a couple that are like jammed.

• 41:50Billy Corgan?

  But I get you what you mean. What's funny about that to me is I know you love good song. Like I know you love good country music. Like.

• 41:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:56Billy Corgan?

  You are attracted to song. It's not like you're like, I don't like the song form.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  Right. No, no, absolutely. But like for, for ministry stuff, uh, there's very few songs I've ever written. I pretty much just borrow from the universe and what they tell me to do. And then I do the best that I can to replicate the transmission that I get. I know it sounds crazy, but that.

• 42:19Billy Corgan?

  It makes, honestly, it makes total sense to me.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  That's literally our paradigm.

• 42:22Billy Corgan?

  But that's what I mean by the perfectly imperfect, right? There's something about your commitment to the space that I've always felt as a listener. Like I always feel like I, maybe I'm being indulgent, but I feel like I know exactly what you're trying to say. Like.

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Oh, that's great.

• 42:37Billy Corgan?

  Like, you know what I'm saying? Whatever it is, it's like, okay, I hear you, Al. Like it comes across. There's a clarity there that's really interesting.

• 42:44Speaker 02

  I hope it's not overbearing. That's, that's what I want to avoid.

• 42:47Billy Corgan?

  Well, usually, maybe I'm giving you too much credit, but usually when I feel like you're being overbearing, it's because you want to be overbearing. Does it make sense? It's like, it's like you're drilling this in my head because you want to drill this in my head. That's part of the chaos factor of it all. You know, you know, from whether it's Sufi music, repetition is part of the.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 43:08Billy Corgan?

  You know, the disassociative nature of.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 43:11Billy Corgan?

  Creating some kind of chaos in the brain or um, what do they call it? Um, when you have two thoughts and you can't hold them in your mind, uh, create a dis- cognitive dissonance.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  Cognitive dissonance.

• 43:21Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean?

• 43:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:23Billy Corgan?

  You're good at creating a cognitive dissonance in the listener.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  Well, it's because it's coming from cognitive distance.

• 43:32Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  In the writer.

• 43:33Billy Corgan?

  Right, so that's what the long arc I'm after is like, you light yourself on fire, and then you're skilled enough as an artist and producer to translate the feeling of being lit on fire into a song, and do it in a way that doesn't date, which is really interesting.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Thank you, but that, once again, I owe it more to authors and directors. The grass is always greener. Like, I look at authors and directors of movies as...

• 44:05Billy Corgan?

  So who are on your...

• 44:07Speaker 02

  And then musicians, I know how it's done.

• 44:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  So it's, you know, yeah, I'm happy for you, that sounds great. But like, that...

• 44:17Billy Corgan?

  So who's on your Mount Rushmore of directors?

• 44:22Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 44:23Billy Corgan?

  Kubrick, does he qualify?

• 44:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean Kubrick to me has to be number two, Joe Dorofsky has to be number one. Just the fact that he was able to get financing for the movies he wanted to do.

• 44:38Billy Corgan?

  Do you know that story where he needed financing from George Harrison? Do you know that story?

• 44:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 44:43Billy Corgan?

  I'll tell this story since we're talking. So, he's got, he's up for a movie, George Harrison comes to give him a million dollars for the movie, and there's a scene where George Harrison says, can we remove the part where the person takes a [BLEEP] or something? And Joe Dorofsky says, no [BLEEP] way, and walks, walks away from a beetle. Right? It's amazing.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  I know. Well, he was supposed to do a video for, he was actually supposed to do the Just One Fix video.

• 45:06Billy Corgan?

  Oh, wow.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  Warner Brothers and I were talking and, and we had already blown through our budget.

• 45:15Billy Corgan?

  Of course.

• 45:16Speaker 02

  We're over, but, you know, back in the 90s, in the Wild West days. And so I'm on the phone with Joe Dorofsky, and, and he's in his apartment in Paris, a huge apartment, but needless to say, he's like, I would love to do this video, but we have to do the whole thing in my apartment because I don't leave my apartment.

• 45:41Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  So I translated that back to Warner Brothers and they're going, "We're gonna send a bunch of junkies to go spend a bunch of weeks in Paris while Zodorowsky won't leave his apartment." And all this, they're like...

• 45:57Billy Corgan?

  Makes sense to me, right?

• 45:59Speaker 02

  I mean, smart business decision, but I was crushed because I just thought that he would have done something like, uh...

• 46:07Billy Corgan?

  That would have been cool. As I said in our opening preamble, you know, there I am in the cabaret metro, somewhere in the late 80s, tripping my mind on LSD, and I look up and you look like Satan. Your physical transformation, you know, I'm not akinning anything that you did to a level of consciousness, but you are a performance artist at some quantum level. Was that, because obviously there was also this musical shift into metal, which from the industrial electronic world of people who did like what you were doing, including me, I loved when you went metal, I totally got it. But there were a lot of people who were like, "What happened to Dance Al?", you know?

• 46:49Speaker 02

  I know, and there's a lot of metal people that hated our metal. There's a lot of dance people that hated the fact that we were metal.

• 46:54Billy Corgan?

  But don't you think, you're working on the, let's call it the heavier side. I think that's grown very well over time with that crowd.

• 47:01Speaker 02

  That's what I'm saying, that's aged well.

• 47:03Billy Corgan?

  Well, and you look at all the bands that basically were like, "I'll take that."

• 47:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, right, and that's great.

• 47:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Sorry, there was no question in there. But I guess what I'm after is, lighting yourself on fire, now you look like Satan. You know what I mean? You're playing behind chicken wire. There was that whole period. Were you, did you see it as an artistic provocation that you were happy to indulge in? Or was it some reflection of some other dissatisfaction?

• 47:33Billy Corgan?

  Because that's always been this weird thing on you. I feel like I'm on this side of the street, which is-

• 47:38Speaker 02

  You're talking about my physical appearance.

• 47:41Billy Corgan?

  I'm talking about you've had, you've had sort of three musical kind of identities.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:48Billy Corgan?

  One you didn't want, one where you were kind of figuring it out, and then kind of the one you've sort of been in since. And each one of those had a-

• 47:57Speaker 02

  That's good. I've never heard anyone put that in three Enoch's.

• 48:01Billy Corgan?

  Three Enoch's, there you go. But for people who I think are less sort of listening carefully, I saw it as somebody sort of like, like, not an actor taking on a role, but it was like, okay, now we're in this movie, you know, this is the, you know, we're now in this, we're in this part of the fun house, and this look, this aesthetic, this way of playing gigs, this way of releasing music, this way of producing music, this is kind of where I'm attracted. And as someone who's always been, who chases the feeling, right, that's what you said. But I guess what I'm after is, there's always this thing of like, like, is Iggy Pop really Iggy Pop? You know what I'm saying?

• 48:44Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 48:45Billy Corgan?

  Is he just some nerd who figured out that people would rather hang out with Iggy Pop than Jimmy, whatever his real name is?

• 48:52Speaker 02

  Osterberg.

• 48:53Billy Corgan?

  Thank you.

• 48:53Speaker 02

  But, no, he's, he's Iggy Pop. I mean, he's now settled down a little bit, but I can't think of anything truer than the representation of himself-

• 49:10Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  -with his music.

• 49:14Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so to reverse the question, did you, did you, did you become Satan or were you always Satan? I'm not trying to be funny, but you, you know what I'm saying? That, that, that character that emerged out of all that?

• 49:24Speaker 02

  I think, I think originally, yes, of course, it was, it was also, you know, a reaction towards being controlled by Arista Records and the business that, oh yeah, well, I'm gonna do this, meh, meh, meh, meh, you know. A lot of childish tantrums went into that, but then, then I just stopped caring, and then it's just like, look, whatever's happening with my hair, well, my look's been the same for- Thirty years. It's I I even think like some of these. These are like twenty years old. It's like I don't. I barely change my clothes. So I stopped caring.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  Once I reached a point where I felt comfortable with myself. And so then. It has nothing to do with the music.

• 50:14Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 50:15Speaker 02

  You know.

• 50:15Billy Corgan?

  But was it a was it a was it a process for you of of finding something? Or was it a process of discovery?

• 50:23Speaker 02

  I think it was a process of rebellion.

• 50:26Billy Corgan?

  Okay. But so are you still in rebellion then?

• 50:29Speaker 02

  Uh, no, I just I just gave up. So I'm just a. Natural born rebel.

• 50:36Billy Corgan?

  Post rebellion. Post rebellion.

• 50:38Speaker 02

  Natural born rebel.

• 50:39Billy Corgan?

  Well, most people, uh, you know, I'm speaking a little bit more of my own generation. Because, you know, you pay a different attention to your generation because those are the people that are around. In your case.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  Our generation. How old do you think I am?

• 50:55Billy Corgan?

  Well, you but see, you were so successful young. That's the thing.

• 50:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:59Billy Corgan?

  So we're not that that different. But in my mind, you're a different generation, even if it's that that's not fair.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 51:06Billy Corgan?

  Because I was coming to see you.

• 51:07Speaker 02

  Right. That's that's crazy. All right. I'll I'll take that.

• 51:10Billy Corgan?

  You know, my band didn't. My band didn't start till eighty eight. So when I'm seeing you in eighty six, I'm just some kid. Who likes music.

• 51:17Speaker 02

  Paul DeMore in our band now from Tool.

• 51:21Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 51:21Speaker 02

  On bass. Tool was just in rehearsals and wasn't even a band yet. When they came and saw us at La Palooza.

• 51:30Billy Corgan?

  Which would have been ninety.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  Ninety two.

• 51:34Speaker 02

  And, uh, I accidentally dosed him with LSD.

• 51:39Billy Corgan?

  Accidentally.

• 51:40Speaker 02

  I know it was an accident because I'd always put a couple of drops of liquid LSD in my bushmills on stage.

• 51:46Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 51:48Speaker 02

  And drank that. And then I I only drank half the bottle.

• 51:51Billy Corgan?

  This is every show?

• 51:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And so then I get.

• 51:54Billy Corgan?

  Microdosing or you were trying to get high?

• 51:56Speaker 02

  No, no, I was trying to get high. I I hate playing live. So anything I can do to make it to where it's like this, like, uh, Fellini meets Shodorovsky film for me. Makes it interesting.

• 52:09Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 52:11Speaker 02

  Now nowadays, it's a lot more calm down. But like. So I get off stage and there's these there's Maynard and Paul. But they were kids.

• 52:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  But, but like, there's only, probably you're the same age as them.

• 52:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  There's about eight years separation, but you could just tell they were just like, wide-eyed kids. And I was just like, I felt like that old Pepsi commercial with Shaq coming out of a basketball game going, handing over a Pepsi.

• 52:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:42Speaker 02

  You know, like, here, kid.

• 52:44Billy Corgan?

  Here, here's the Bushmilk with LSD in it.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  And so, him and Maynard drank up this, oh my God, this, Al Jordan gave this to me. And then they realized, like, oh my God, this is full of LSD.

• 52:56Billy Corgan?

  Oh my God.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  And then, next thing I know, they're huge.

• 53:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 53:03Speaker 02

  They're on the cover of Rolling Stone, this and that and that. So, yeah, I've, I've had a lot to do with, like, beside the production part and all this, just, just kind of like, uh, I'm, I'm kind of like the, the, the Tom Bombadil.

• 53:20Billy Corgan?

  I don't know who that is.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  That's a, a Hobbit reference.

• 53:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  For all, all you people out there that, that know this, Tom Bombadil. If you've read the books, he was cut out of the movie about Peter Jackson, but he's making a comeback. And Tom Bombadil is just this chilled old hippie that just kind of knows his shit and doesn't want to start up shit, but like, starts up shit anyways.

• 53:46Billy Corgan?

  Is that now or back then?

• 53:48Speaker 02

  Or both, both. I, I, I really think I'm kind of like a, a Tom Bombadil character. Look him up.

• 53:55Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 53:58Billy Corgan?

  We talked about this a bit, but I, I still want to explore it a little bit more. Because, you know, before your success with what is now commonly called industrial music, you know, there was really no sort of commercial value to it.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  Still isn't.

• 54:13Billy Corgan?

  Well, you could argue there is and there isn't. I mean, Rammstein.

• 54:17Speaker 02

  Rammstein.

• 54:17Billy Corgan?

  Is huge.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 54:20Billy Corgan?

  I saw Rammstein play in a football stadium, sixty thousand.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  But they also do it smart, their management and, and the way T.O. is structured and stuff.

• 54:29Billy Corgan?

  They're great guys, and I'm sure you know them, they're.

• 54:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:31Billy Corgan?

  Great band.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  But they, they also. Do it very smart on their marketing and how they do stuff. Trent did the same thing.

• 54:41Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 54:41Speaker 02

  Very smart on the marketing stuff.

• 54:44Billy Corgan?

  So do you have regrets that when you were sort of in those years, those particular years, where there was the commercial focus on you, that you didn't take more advantage of it?

• 54:51Speaker 02

  No, no, no. Well, that's my fault, but I don't consider it a fault. I consider it me. It's just like, yes, I could have been that person. They wanted me to play the game entirely of like the interviews, the...

• 55:07Billy Corgan?

  Are you capable of playing that?

• 55:10Speaker 02

  I'm really not good at it, man.

• 55:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I kind of got that feeling.

• 55:13Speaker 02

  I try. I really do try, but nah, I'm just not very good at it.

• 55:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I used to say, you know, because we've all had those meetings. We go in the boardroom and there's all the money people and the president.

• 55:26Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 55:26Billy Corgan?

  And they would kind of, you know, they give you the gilded path. If you just go down this little yellow brick road, it's gonna, you're gonna make a lot more money. And there was a moment in my life where they were, they were laying out all the things I was doing wrong.

• 55:41Speaker 02

  Who are they to say that?

• 55:43Billy Corgan?

  Well, thank you. I needed you in that meeting, but... Oh, no, I hear you. See, I think about it. You take an artist. First of all, the artist has to figure something out, and if it was so easy, they wouldn't use us. Start there, right? They would get people who are easy to get along with or pretty or whatever, you know what I mean? Sing higher.

• 56:02Speaker 02

  Or start a new like kind of MGM Studios thing where they can mass produce K-pop bands.

• 56:09Billy Corgan?

  Sure, yeah.

• 56:10Speaker 02

  With youngsters having like complete like child labor law

• 56:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:16Speaker 02

  issues to make them the new...

• 56:19Billy Corgan?

  I once said to, do you ever meet Tony Wilson, the Factory?

• 56:23Speaker 02

  No, no, no, but, oh, God, that would have been on my bucket list.

• 56:27Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so Tony once wanted to interview me for something he was doing for like an industry panel.

• 56:34Billy Corgan?

  He's like, "I'm gonna interview you and then I'm gonna show this to a bunch of people in the industry in Europe. So this is your chance to say whatever you want to say to the music business." It was very interesting. I'm talking to Tony Wilson of, you know, started Factory and, you know, very ahead of his time, like all those contracts with Joy Division, it was all 50/50. We split the masters. I mean, so, such a visionary in that way. And unfortunately, he's not with us anymore. So Tony said, literally, "Go ahead, here's the camera, you can talk to the entire music business in Europe. What do you want them to know as an artist?" And I said, "I don't know why you find a needle in a haystack like me, or like you, and then you spend the rest of the years telling us, 'We don't know what the [bleep] we're doing, and we're not needles in a haystack.'"

• 57:15Speaker 02

  That's what I'm saying.

• 57:16Billy Corgan?

  It's the weirdest thing.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  I could never figure it out.

• 57:20Billy Corgan?

  It must be like a pimpo thing, like, "You need me, and if you don't have me..."

• 57:25Speaker 02

  You know what? I think you're absolutely right. Only I can protect you.

• 57:30Billy Corgan?

  Only I know the magical secret, right?

• 57:33Speaker 02

  Right. But they pick you out, they suss talent out, but then it's like, um, it's not only flavor of the month, it's also the egos of the companies themselves.

• 57:46Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah, they're definitely...

• 57:47Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 57:49Billy Corgan?

  I got, I used to call it, you know, you'd meet, "I'm the guy who signed Nirvana."

• 57:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. I'm the guy who signed Nirvana.

• 57:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, exactly. I'm this guy, that's, I'm that guy.

• 57:58Speaker 02

  Right, but how many guys have you met that have said that?

• 58:01Billy Corgan?

  Like, about 14.

• 58:02Speaker 02

  And so what we need to do is get them in like some kind of WWE thing, and have them battle it out to find out who really signed Nirvana.

• 58:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, there you go. I had a note here, and we talked about Timothy Leary, and, because it's interesting, did you read the book that Ram Dass wrote?

• 58:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:21Billy Corgan?

  How'd you feel about that book?

• 58:24Speaker 02

  Well...

• 58:26Billy Corgan?

  These old hippies, you know, they got an interesting take on things, right?

• 58:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, no, I mean, yeah, it's spot on, but, um...

• 58:36Speaker 02

  Like, my time with Tim was different. He was on his way out the door. And he knew it. He was already diagnosed with prostate cancer. And so, it was kind of like, he went from hippie ideals to the last couple of years to like, pretty much nihilism.

• 58:59Billy Corgan?

  Really? Interesting.

• 59:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, for, you know, I watched the decline of somebody that said like, you know, "I'm not afraid of death, man." It's like, "It's just the next realm," and this and that, blah, blah, blah. And then, as it kept creeping closer, watching him go more into like, kind of like panic mode. Not public panic mode, but like, inner panic mode.

• 59:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I had the same thing happen with my mother.

• 59:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:29Billy Corgan?

  She was diagnosed with cancer. And in the beginning, she was very sanguine. "This is my number, and this is my life." And at the end, it got really dark.

• 59:39Speaker 02

  This, this, that's why I went back to ministry. It started getting dark.

• 59:44Billy Corgan?

  When you go back to ministry, to avoid the darkness, you know you're in trouble. But what I was after was, you know, and because, you know, you were in close contact with one of these 60s icons. And there's two points I want to make there. One is, if, if Leary was, let's call it, the hedonistic side of that, you know, like the merry prankster hipster side. And, and Ram Dass was the, "No, man, just gotta sit here and listen to Baba G, you know, to say the world is a flower, and you spend eight hours trying to figure out what he meant."

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I think both of those are like, just so over the top, like, character, characterizations of them that don't really fit the people.

• 1:00:28Billy Corgan?

  But in a way, I mean, you tell me, but in a way, you know, our generation...

• 1:00:36Billy Corgan?

  Kind of went out of a way to smash a lot of that stuff. I think we got, we got sick of the hippie shit, for lack of a better way to put it.

• 1:00:43Speaker 02

  Well, I, I jumped right back into it, right at the, at, like you said, the height of everyone hating them, I was like, wow, they seem to make sense to me.

• 1:00:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:00:54Speaker 02

  So, like I said, I've always been a few years ahead or a few years behind, I'm not sure.

• 1:00:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  But I just know that I go with my gut and that felt right at the time.

• 1:01:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:04Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:01:05Billy Corgan?

  But I guess what I'm after is, because we were the generation that kind of killed the hippie thing, and they were the two, let's call it two icons of that.

• 1:01:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:15Billy Corgan?

  You know, you know, you're like, it's either Jerry or, you know, like, you know, that, that crowd, like, there's Jerry people and then there's like, I don't know, Carlos Santana people, you know, they kind of go in different directions.

• 1:01:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:01:27Billy Corgan?

  I don't know if there's a point I'm after other than, were you conscious of smashing that stuff up?

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  Um, no, and, and, and I also firmly believe that they smashed themselves.

• 1:01:41Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  All the, the punk rock stuff that said, you know, burn your Zeppelin records and this and that, and, you know, all the, the UK invasion and the New York, you know, hardcore scene, burn all this stuff hippie, I was like, I don't know, I still kind of like it, you know?

• 1:02:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:03Speaker 02

  But then I watched them as that generation, the boomer generation grew, uh, they burned themselves.

• 1:02:12Billy Corgan?

  That's interesting.

• 1:02:12Speaker 02

  With their own excesses and their own like indulgences and fantasies that like, they were really making a difference when they were really working for hedge fund managers at that point, so, uh, I, I just watched the sellout of that movement, just, just as we saw the sellout of the punk movement, the sellout of the grunge movement, the sellout of the.

• 1:02:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:02:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that's a lot to take on, because I, I hear you and I agree with you, but it's like, it's sort of like, it's like, um, and you, you address this in song. You know, I remember in the eighties, it was like CNN, here's the government, here's the message, oh, we're bombing these people over there because something, something, something. And you were one of the first artists to come on and call bullshit on the whole thing. You know, again, kind of Nostradamus, right? You know, you injected a level of politic in your music that hadn't really been seen since the sixties that I can remember. And, and, and, last point on that, you knew at that point that a lot of stuff that they were saying was bull-

• 1:03:25Speaker 02

  Absolutely. But I also had the platform without social media back then.

• 1:03:30Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:03:33Speaker 02

  I try and make my themes a lot more

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  universal now, more like about humanity and moral compass than I do about specific right-wing, left-wing, political things.

• 1:03:50Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  And this is a conscious effort because-

• 1:03:54Billy Corgan?

  That's what I was gonna ask.

• 1:03:55Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't need the bull-

• 1:03:58Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:03:58Speaker 02

  And, and I, I don't have Facebook or whatever, Tic Tac-ies and Instagram-ies and I don't do any of that stuff.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  But I just, and the reason I don't do any of it is I did have Facebook for like a couple months and I, and I was like, wow, this. So, I just stay away from it.

• 1:04:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  Mind my own stuff. But I am very conscious of when I'm writing lyrics, unfortunately. But actually, in a way, it's been good because it's forced me to, to, to write more in a, a universal mode. Instead of being angry at one specific thing, so you expand your,

• 1:04:48Speaker 02

  your, um-

• 1:04:49Billy Corgan?

  Is that, is that so you don't get sort of trapped in the paradigm they're presenting?

• 1:04:54Speaker 02

  That, but it's also, you know, originally it's like, I don't need this bullshit. So I'm not gonna say this bullshit. But then by not saying that bullshit, you still wanna say that bullshit. So it forces you to find another way to say that bullshit. That's a little bit.

• 1:05:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I get it.

• 1:05:17Speaker 02

  You know, not watered down, but just more like, whoa, you gotta think about it.

• 1:05:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, so I just wanna share one thing, cuz it's a cool memory in my mind. As I said before, at one point I was working at Traxx, and I was in the other room.

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  You worked at Wax Trax?

• 1:05:34Billy Corgan?

  Oh, no, Chicago Trax.

• 1:05:36Speaker 02

  Chicago Trax, alright.

• 1:05:37Billy Corgan?

  I don't know if you would remember, but that's when we first got to know each other a little bit. And there was about a two or three week period where we were literally in the studios at the same time. And so, once a day, I'd kinda come over, there was a connecting door.

• 1:05:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:53Billy Corgan?

  And I'd come over and you would play me whatever you were working on, which was cool. And I got to see you work a little bit. And you were pretty much working on your own.

• 1:06:01Billy Corgan?

  And I have this great memory, it's a story I like to tell where you, you, um, you were telling me about this song you were working on and some of the themes involved. And you said, oh, do you wanna hear it? I'd like to play it for you. And, you know, it's one of your songs, so it's like, it starts, it's like, it's concussive volume, SSL, spike through my brain, and then the vocal comes in, it's like,

• 1:06:23Billy Corgan?

  you know what I mean? But you were just telling me all this sensitive stuff that you were trying to get in the song. And so you play it for me, and, you know, I'm a fan, so I get it. You know, it's not like I'm shocked by it, but, you know, you play me the song and then you, so, you know, did the feelings that I was, you know, did it come across? It was such a contrast in moments, because we're having, like we're talking now, very, very gently, you know, you know, I'm having this feeling, and then,

• 1:06:52Billy Corgan?

  gargling with razor blades.

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:54Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  Sometimes you need both to make a salad.

• 1:06:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. This is a total nerd question, but I'm asking you since you're sitting here and I know there's gonna be some nerds out there.

• 1:07:08Billy Corgan?

  You've always had an interesting relationship with low end in your mixes. In that way-

• 1:07:13Speaker 02

  Not always good.

• 1:07:15Billy Corgan?

  Well, but is very ahead of its time because if you look at modern production, it's more how you've always produced, very bright, very present, and the bass kind of is in there, but it's not like, you know, over the top. That's a total nerd question, but I had to ask.

• 1:07:32Speaker 02

  Well, no, but then I've done some stuff where I've felt like the bass overtook it, and there was no mid, there was just like highs and bass. And I think that was working like with Sherwood and with the reggae community, like Lee Perry and stuff like that.

• 1:07:58Speaker 02

  You really had to know your bass, but you also have to know that bass is not gonna work, that EQ is not gonna work in a metal format. So, which do you want?

• 1:08:13Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:08:14Speaker 02

  So, it's literally different types of music, so you have to like learn how to combine them. So I've wrestled with the low end a lot.

• 1:08:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:24Speaker 02

  And had some hits, had some misses.

• 1:08:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, cuz that's how I remember you would play me stuff, I'd come over and visit you, and it was like, it was always shocking, like the level of like forward.

• 1:08:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:35Billy Corgan?

  You know, I don't wanna see assault cuz that sort of makes it sound like it's harsh. It's a very surgical way of presenting music.

• 1:08:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, we spent a lot of time on it.

• 1:08:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:45Speaker 02

  You know, so when you come by our studio, man, I can't wait to-

• 1:08:50Billy Corgan?

  I love it.

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  You gotta come by.

• 1:08:51Billy Corgan?

  Thank you, I appreciate that. Okay, we're in the home stretch.

• 1:08:58Billy Corgan?

  So you've been on this crazy journey, and you're not just an aging hippie, but the wear on your body, mind, spirit, like where you at on all that? Because I guess the question is, was it worth it? You know, was putting yourself through a form of hell, was it worth it?

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, means justifies an ends. And the end is that I'm quite content.

• 1:09:23Speaker 02

  Own a beautiful house here. Love it here. Don't want to leave here. I've stopped looking at properties in Barcelona and Lisbon for moving, right? So, yes, was it worth it? Absolutely. Body tone and all that. You know, that's why I want to get out in the next couple of years. It's kind of like if you're in NFL with concussions.

• 1:09:50Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:09:51Speaker 02

  It's like, you know, maybe if you have too many headaches all the time, I should retire.

• 1:09:59Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:09:59Speaker 02

  And I'm not saying that I'm having too many concussions or anything, but I'm just saying that like, over the next couple of years, I want to wrap everything up with a bow and be able to enjoy a different part of my life.

• 1:10:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:13Speaker 02

  As opposed to just doing the grind. But do I regret the grind? Not at all. It's got me to where I am today and I'm happy with that.

• 1:10:24Billy Corgan?

  I'm not asking if you believe in God, but I'm asking you how God relates or doesn't relate in your music because a lot of your messaging has been against, let's call it material or oppressive culture. And obviously, there's a religious version of that and we grew up in this, whatever that was, you know, the pedo church and all that stuff.

• 1:10:47Speaker 02

  Well, here's the thing. My religion, I don't understand, but I know it's there. My spiritual, 100%. Like I told you, I don't think I've ever written a song. I get my songs from the universe. Like, I don't know where they come from. Middle of the night, blah, blah, blah. Well, better get up, voice memo it and try and figure it out in the morning, whatever. There is a spiritual energy all over this universe. I don't think human beings, most human beings, 99.9% of human beings, aren't able to tap into that universal knowledge. I think that's a religion.

• 1:11:30Speaker 02

  All this other garbage, the, you know, the Christians, Muslims, Jews, all this, this is all garbage. This is made up fantasy stuff for patriarchal control, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. War after war after war.

• 1:11:47Speaker 02

  Just, that's not religion to me.

• 1:11:53Speaker 02

  You know, that's just another government form of oppression. So, my religion, I can't even understand.

• 1:12:00Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:12:01Speaker 02

  But I know it's there.

• 1:12:02Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so to that, because you've obviously done a lot of journey, chemically fueled and otherwise.

• 1:12:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:12:09Billy Corgan?

  Is your conception in all that journey that there is a God? Or is it, you know, like, some people are kind of coming around almost to like a matrix theory, which is, it's more of, like a simulation theory.

• 1:12:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:12:20Billy Corgan?

  As someone who's gone literally the edge of consciousness.

• 1:12:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:12:25Speaker 02

  That is a really astute question, because I'm struggling with that right now.

• 1:12:29Billy Corgan?

  Interesting.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  Whether there is...

• 1:12:31Billy Corgan?

  You'll have to come back and we'll pick that one up.

• 1:12:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, whether there is just a matrix, or whether there is, I'm not saying a being, like, one person in charge...

• 1:12:42Billy Corgan?

  I always call the guy in the white beard, right?

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  Right, right. But just a universal energy that, through mathematics, somehow affects everything and everyone.

• 1:12:52Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:12:53Speaker 02

  Okay? But, then there's the matrix, which is also mathematics and a universal thing. But, that's AI. The other one is real. A real energy, which I don't understand. I mean, no scientist understands it, like...

• 1:13:15Billy Corgan?

  Quantum stuff and...

• 1:13:16Speaker 02

  I've read a few things in popular mechanics lately about how, like, no, we can all tie into the universe, like, literally know everything that's going on on every planet, blah, blah, blah, blah.

• 1:13:32Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:13:33Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:13:34Speaker 02

  Could be matrix, could be something good and spiritual.

• 1:13:38Billy Corgan?

  Like, a year from now, we'll pick that up.

• 1:13:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:40Billy Corgan?

  Because I would love to have that conversation with you, because... Again, very few people have done as much during you have and let's call it the psychedelic realm of consciousness, but also because you've been in culture and culture, for better or worse, gives you a certain sort of illumination to the human condition?

• 1:14:00Speaker 02

  Oh, well, I don't, yeah, but

• 1:14:04Billy Corgan?

  I'm not asking you to agree-

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  But it's a very skewed vision of it.

• 1:14:07Billy Corgan?

  Of course, but it is a-

• 1:14:08Speaker 02

  Because we're pampered.

• 1:14:10Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but it is a heightened form of illumination, right? You put 5,000 people in a room and they're all putting their eyeballs on you. I don't even care if you're playing a spoon, something happens.

• 1:14:20Speaker 02

  Right, well, and at the same time, I'm observing them.

• 1:14:25Billy Corgan?

  That's what I'm saying. We have a gilded position in that we experience reality in a very interesting way, including how people project on people like us,

• 1:14:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:14:34Billy Corgan?

  Including how they process reality. You can make a song and tell them, "No, this song is about my sister." And they'll go, "No, it's not."

• 1:14:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:42Billy Corgan?

  "But I wrote the song, it's about me." "No, it's not." Right? I mean, we've all had those weird experiences.

• 1:14:49Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, absolutely.

• 1:14:50Billy Corgan?

  So that does, there is a surreal-

• 1:14:53Speaker 02

  But the real human condition also, like I said, we're pampered. We're in our bubble.

• 1:15:02Speaker 02

  What are the people in Gaza or Sudan or Ukraine thinking right now of reality? Do you really think they're giving a shit about pop culture?

• 1:15:14Billy Corgan?

  Or who are the pop stars dating and-

• 1:15:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:15:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:19Speaker 02

  So, there's that too, but then, again, once again, the question, "Why?"

• 1:15:26Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:15:27Speaker 02

  Okay, so that's what I try and get to with my lyrics is, "Why is this happening?" Not like, "Okay, this is happening, let's react."

• 1:15:37Speaker 02

  Why is this happening?

• 1:15:39Billy Corgan?

  So let's play this game. I like this game. I call it if I ruled the world.

• 1:15:43Speaker 02

  Oh, uh oh.

• 1:15:44Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so if you ruled the world, what would you change about the political and, I guess, social system of the world, you know? Because I certainly know you've always railed against, like, injustice in every form. It's in all your music. And maybe even on some level, you were railing against the injustice that you felt was done to you.

• 1:16:04Speaker 02

  Let me do a rapid fire thing. First,

• 1:16:08Speaker 02

  term limits on Supreme Court judges, and also probably expand the court at this point. Second, get rid of the Electoral College. Third of all, get rid of the filibuster.

• 1:16:21Speaker 02

  Fourth of all, make psilocybin legal.

• 1:16:24Billy Corgan?

  We're in the neighborhood. We're almost there.

• 1:16:27Speaker 02

  I know, so that's it. If I ruled the world.

• 1:16:33Billy Corgan?

  Okay, slight different variation. If you could, if, because everything you said was working within the political system that exists here in America. But if you could install a new political system, would you install a new political system?

• 1:16:46Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I mean, that's Citizens United. Get rid of that and make elections to where you set aside a certain amount of money in your budget, the governmental budget, for elections, and that's it. Each candidate gets to spend that.

• 1:17:03Billy Corgan?

  Take money out of politics and...

• 1:17:04Speaker 02

  Take money out of politics and let people see what people have to say. But that's not gonna happen, because it's gotten to be the point with AI and bots and political agendas that I just don't see this nirvana happening, where actually, and not only that, people don't want to run for office that are qualified and that could change things.

• 1:17:28Billy Corgan?

  That's a crazy thing, because we know there are people out there who would be very, very adept at

• 1:17:32Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:17:33Billy Corgan?

  running these systems.

• 1:17:34Speaker 02

  I don't need this.

• 1:17:37Speaker 02

  You know.

• 1:17:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, right. Okay, last bit. I think it's a nice way to bring it full circle. So personally, because I knew your feelings about your early music, I was definitely shocked, I don't know if that's a fair word, when you did The Cruel World, where you played the with sympathy.

• 1:17:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was fun.

• 1:17:57Billy Corgan?

  And then I went out of my way to see your reaction. I watched some of the clips and I thought, has he made peace with this part of his life?

• 1:18:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:18:04Billy Corgan?

  Because, okay, great.

• 1:18:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:18:06Billy Corgan?

  Can you at least walk me through that a little bit?

• 1:18:08Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:18:10Billy Corgan?

  Can I say one thing as a fan? Because I always liked that music. I mean, I was listening to it when it came out.

• 1:18:16Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:18:16Billy Corgan?

  So, and I get it because people do this stuff with me sometimes. It's like, if I like it and you don't like it, or you don't want to play it, am I supposed to feel weird because I like it? Do you know what I'm saying?

• 1:18:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know exactly.

• 1:18:31Billy Corgan?

  I always thought there was good stuff in there.

• 1:18:35Speaker 02

  You know, there was. It was, but it was like, for me, it was like mixing with one hand behind my back and one eye closed and one ear closed, just like, okay. Kind of like, these are the parameters you set. Even though you signed me for something different, I'll do the best I can. And I did at that time and it did what it did. But I was very angry over the process and the paradigm of the whole thing. Over the years, blah, blah, blah, blah. Get more and more people coming up going, man, I have first records. All right, so we get to, and I'm paying attention, but I'm still like, nah, nah, nah,

• 1:19:19Speaker 02

  I don't want anything to do with this. I'm on the bus, I'm one of those late night long hauls. Couple tours ago. And the band seemed kind of squirrely. They were like.

• 1:19:39Speaker 02

  And then our keyboard player JB comes up and puts something on because like usually I just go to bed, man. But I was sitting there and they're like, you know, whispering and then they played this song that that they did and I'm like, okay, that's that's pretty good, man. Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. That's me. Like, so they

• 1:20:05Billy Corgan?

  Had done a version of it?

• 1:20:06Speaker 02

  They they completely did a bunch of songs for that on their own, not telling grandpa here. They went behind my back and decided to like, charge him up with like a little bit of, yeah, yeah. And so they confronted it with me and I was just like, and and they're all like, you know, waiting and I was like, it's actually not bad. Like, the way that they had done these songs made me completely reevaluate how

• 1:20:39Billy Corgan?

  Did they tell you why they did it?

• 1:20:41Speaker 02

  They were just fans and they were just sick of hearing me like always just downgrade.

• 1:20:47Billy Corgan?

  So it was their way of saying?

• 1:20:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:48Billy Corgan?

  There's something here and

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:50Billy Corgan?

  That's pretty cool. I didn't know that part of the story.

• 1:20:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, the band.

• 1:20:53Billy Corgan?

  That's amazing.

• 1:20:55Speaker 02

  Especially Paul DeMore and Roy Mayorga were the two cohorts to really get this project going. And then I I said, okay, all right, I can I can honestly see something that's like usable here and let's pursue it. And then I spent the next three months of my life like going back to where I said I'd never go back to again.

• 1:21:22Billy Corgan?

  Was it simply that it was time and you were ready to make peace with it or did it help you make peace with it?

• 1:21:28Speaker 02

  A little bit of both, but I mean, it's time. I mean, like I said, as far as like the bitterness aspect of people and this and that, that's not me. And so what am I gonna hang on to about like this first album? It's like, you know, things like "Every Day is Halloween" is a classic. I mean,

• 1:21:48Billy Corgan?

  That's the first song I ever heard of you. That's the song that made me a fan.

• 1:21:53Speaker 02

  That's fine. So like, why am I like, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh? I think it's because like, you know, when we did the switch, you almost had to overcompensate to like win over the metalheads.

• 1:22:06Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:22:07Speaker 02

  So you had to really disavow it. And plus, the experience of doing that record wasn't great. So you combine that up, but then you let years go by and time heals all wounds. And I was just like, I was ready for it and the band was ready for it, doing stuff behind my back and just laid it out. And I was just like, alright, let's do it. Let's, let's kill this bird once and for all, man. Done.

• 1:22:31Billy Corgan?

  Well, the thing that strikes me, and I think this is a nice way to end it. It's selfish, but you're here.

• 1:22:38Billy Corgan?

  I remember being at Medusa's about 1985. And that was one of those songs, "Every Day is Halloween." When that song came on, the dance floor would go, and I know you were there some of those nights.

• 1:22:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Crazy.

• 1:22:52Billy Corgan?

  It was crazy. So that's what I remember.

• 1:22:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:56Billy Corgan?

  You figured out this quicksilver thing.

• 1:22:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:59Billy Corgan?

  And that sounded, you know, was like, what's that synth sound?

• 1:23:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:23:03Billy Corgan?

  You know, whatever, the whole thing. So God bless on that because I'm glad you made peace with it. I know that sounds like maybe a bit fan indulgent.

• 1:23:10Speaker 02

  I'm actually like, kind of like, kind of cocky strutting my stuff now. Like I said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get you this album and then you listen to it. And I'm really happy with the songs that we chose to redo and this and that. And I think it makes it more appropriate to ministry these days. It certainly sounds like us now, but without taking the original intent of the song away. Like you know the song.

• 1:23:39Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:23:39Speaker 02

  That's coming on, but you also know it's not your grandpa's mix.

• 1:23:44Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:23:46Speaker 02

  It's like this now, so. Thank you. All right, and God, it's always great to hang with you. Thank you, appreciate that. All right.