Patrik Mata | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

There are artists who make the art—and then there are artists who are the art. On this episode of The Magnificent Others, Billy Corgan sits down with Kommunity FK frontman and goth pioneer Patrik Mata. In this rare, unguarded conversation, Patrik talks about his early fascination with Dadaism, surrealism, and David Bowie, arriving in Los Angeles in 1975 with fifty dollars and no plan, enduring hostile crowds, and turning down record deals on principle. Along the way, Billy and Patrik explore individuality, anti-art, creative innocence, and the real cost of originality. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

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• 1:00Speaker 02

  I knew I could sing. I just knew it. And I just had this burning yearning in my heart that this is, I have to do this.

• 1:07Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:08Speaker 02

  I don't care about anything else.

• 1:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, like a bolt to lightning.

• 1:10Speaker 02

  I tried to get other guys to play with me. No one would play with me.

• 1:13Billy Corgan?

  This kind of goth, death rock, whatever people want to call this genre, which you were part of initiating into the world.

• 1:21Speaker 02

  People would go, "I'm not going on after these guys. I don't want these guys on our bill. They can't play. They're horrible. I mean, they look weird. What's up with these guys?" You know?

• 1:29Billy Corgan?

  There are those artists who, they are the art. And everybody tries to figure out how to do what they do.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  That's me.

• 1:40Billy Corgan?

  Patrick Mata, thank you for being here. I'm so happy to talk to you today.

• 1:44Speaker 02

  It's my pleasure.

• 1:46Billy Corgan?

  So, there isn't a ton of information out there about your life. Maybe that was purposeful.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  Some of it. Some of it. And I get yelled at about it.

• 1:55Billy Corgan?

  Well, from the point of view of interviewing someone, you know, you kind of start with the cursory kind of like, you know, the life story. And one thing I saw attributed to, and I always like to ask as opposed to assume, was this your connection to kind of Dadaism and?

• 2:11Speaker 02

  There's a big influence on me.

• 2:12Billy Corgan?

  Okay, great. So let me start here and then we'll jump in. Because I'm very curious for your thoughts on this because when I saw this and then I thought of your work and your life, like it's, it put all these pieces together that maybe I didn't understand before.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:26Billy Corgan?

  So I want to ask you how you came to it because I came to it from my own direction, but I didn't know you'd come.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:32Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so, um, so let's start here because I Tristan Zara.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Oh, he was, there you go. He was my David Bowie.

• 2:41Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 2:41Speaker 02

  Before Bowie.

• 2:42Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so let me say a couple of things here and then, and then I want to, of course, I want to hear from you. So, uh, did you read, it came out fairly recently, the book about Kiki Manrey? Did you read that book?

• 2:52Speaker 02

  No, no, I know who she is, of course.

• 2:53Billy Corgan?

  So it's an exploration of Manrey's relationship with Kiki, more so from the vantage point of Kiki as opposed to Manrey, which is very interesting.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  Did these people speak to her?

• 3:03Billy Corgan?

  Well, no, she's long passed away.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  I know that, but I mean, then.

• 3:06Billy Corgan?

  It's kind of a, it's a, it's a, let's call it a, a deep dive reassessment of her place in the Dada story. Normally she gets kind of cast as a.

• 3:17Speaker 02

  She was friends with Manrey too, right?

• 3:18Billy Corgan?

  Well, no, she was Manrey's lover.

• 3:20Speaker 02

  That's what I mean, yeah.

• 3:21Billy Corgan?

  And really wanted to marry Manrey. Their relationship was a lot deeper than I thought and I, I, I've collected Manrey photos and so I, I have a pretty good knowledge of Manrey. But I always thought her as a kind of a character in this play of this time in Paris, this idea that she was the model muse for so many artists.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 3:40Billy Corgan?

  But the book is a beautiful reassessment. I wish I could remember the author's name. It's called Kiki Manrey and she used to, she used to sign autographs as Kiki Manrey. She thought of herself as his wife. And she had a lot more influence over his artistic work than people thought. Anyway, but they talk about Tristan Zara in the book. And in the beginning, Zara was this radical who kind of reset the table with how the artists in Paris, all these expats and stuff living in Paris should see Dadaism and they'd have Dada symposiums and he would lead poetry nights and stuff like this. But they do talk in the book over time, kind of, Dadaism fell out as a sort of cause celebre and Zara also kind of fell out. But even to the end, he was all in on Dada. So I want to say a couple

• 4:23Billy Corgan?

  of things about Zara because I saw a lot of reflections in your work, but I wanted to ask you. So these are just some basic definitions. Anti-art nihilism, rejecting traditional beauty and logic. Zara saw art as a tool for destruction and negation of established values, aiming to shock audiences. Spontaneity and chance. He promoted chance operations like cutting words from newspapers for poetry and automatic writing to bypass conscious control and reveal authentic expression. And of course, the Great Dada Manifesto, 1918. He outlined Dada's goals, attacking bourgeois morality, logic, and the perceived complacency of art.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  That's me.

• 4:58Billy Corgan?

  So tell me, to me, it frames your story so beautifully, I think. So I'm much more interested in that part of your story than like, where'd you go to school? You know, I mean, if you want to talk about that stuff, please. But I think this part is to me essential to your-

• 5:12Speaker 02

  It's all relevant. Everything is reinforced of that, of everything.

• 5:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. But can you illuminate that some-

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. I was studying to be a journalist. I wanted to be like Hunter S. Thompson. And I was more into writing and interviewing people myself. And I discovered Dada by going into the art book area in the library. And I said, huh. And I loved the visuals and everything. And it was pre pistols. You could see where they took everything from that, from Jamie Reed and all that. And I saw a photograph of Tristan Zara and I loved his hairstyle. And I go, well, this is kind of Bowie Berlin-ish, the wedge thing. So I went and had my haircut exactly like that. No one looked like that. And then because of Bowie, I started putting makeup on. And but the whole thing about the the Dadaist was that it was punk rock.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  It was pre-punk. It was a sure little nihilistic, but when they existed, there was war. It was kind of like reflective of what happened at the punk rock scene. So it's all relevant to me. Zara's manifestos, I have all these books on on Dadaism that I collected over time. I stole the one from the library, actually.

• 6:24Billy Corgan?

  That's very Dada of you.

• 6:26Speaker 02

  And the idea of him putting, doing the cut ups, like pre-Burroughs, putting them in a hat and then taking them out one by one around them and just reciting them, pissed a lot of people off when he would at the poetry readings back in that day. And the poetry readings back in the day were like punk gigs. You know, they became violent because people didn't understand, like the Rites of Spring, the Stavinsky where they rioted.

• 6:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, walked out.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it was kind of like all of that. And that really interested me because you must be touching someone somehow to make them react like that. So that was part of what really attracted me was his, the power that he had. And how people didn't like him because of certain ways that he acted. You know, so that really, that really turned me on. I really dug that.

• 7:15Billy Corgan?

  Did it, did it affect the way you listened to music?

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Actually, it did. I'm a big believer in the outsider art and outsider artists. I think they have more to say than most people. Madness is a thing that I enjoy, Antonin Arto. He was a big thing for me. I have a lot of his collected works. I just the bravery of these people. They didn't get, you know, it's like, this is how I feel. This is what I'm doing.

• 7:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  You know, and I'm going to look this way, it's the way I want to look. And the way the Dadaists would put on performances, they'd make the costumes out of construction paper. And you've seen the photos and it's just incredible. No one looked like that. So to me, that was anti-fashion.

• 7:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  You know?

• 7:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So.

• 7:57Billy Corgan?

  And of course, it extends into the surrealistics, surrealists.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was into nihilism before I got into surrealists.

• 8:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but there's that natural extension. Then you see like, let's call it the wave after like Cocteau, Dali, William Burroughs, Brian Geisinger, and Genesis.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  And then the leader, I can't remember his name, Ardegin, the guy who was the head of the surrealist party that kicked Dali out.

• 8:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Can't remember his name.

• 8:24Billy Corgan?

  Is it Antonio or To?

• 8:25Speaker 02

  No, no, he was a different guy. He was completely mad. I think he was in the madhouse at that time.

• 8:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So, looking back now, because you've had time to reflect on that influence, what, what person or what era most evoked for you who you wanted to be as an artist?

• 8:47Speaker 02

  It was, again, Tristan Zara and David Bowie, basically.

• 8:51Billy Corgan?

  So almost kind of like bookends of like the same philosophy.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  Yes. And at the time, because I grew up with Bowie, digging him, you know, I got everything I could find.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  And, and then like with the Beatles, the Beatles were a big influence on me as a child. Third grade, I saw them on Ed Sullivan when they appeared. And my mom, she managed a record store. And so she was like, as a friend of mine had said, like a pipeline of all that information from Britain. And of course, everyone was looking at Britain at that time because they were so innovative, all that, just like what happened in 90s later, you know.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  But what really inspired me was the fact that they, they were so all individualistic. And that's what I love about all of that, being an individual.

• 9:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  That's important to me.

• 9:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it must, it must make you laugh because, you know, I kind of stumbled in the Goth around 84, 85. And where people get almost like.

• 9:51Billy Corgan?

  They get kind of stuck in a lane like this is goth.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 9:55Billy Corgan?

  This is rock.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:56Billy Corgan?

  This is alternative.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  I hate all of that.

• 9:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, me too. I'm always like, who cares?

• 10:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:00Billy Corgan?

  I thought this was supposed to be the fun club.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's not what it's about.

• 10:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  You missed the point.

• 10:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah. Okay, I'm glad, I'm glad because I get that from you, but I'm glad to hear it from you. So when did you come to LA? What year?

• 10:14Speaker 02

  Uh, seventy five.

• 10:15Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  Uh, what happened was this kind of funny story. I was, like I said, I was studying journalism and I discovered Burroughs, Andy Warhol and the Factory era, all of that in art and in a library, this college library. And I frequented books and took them and I said, well, you, no one's going to read this. This is, I want this. So I did take the books, you know, I take them home. I still have some of them.

• 10:41Billy Corgan?

  I love it.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Because I'm going to get something out of this, you know? So I told my mom that I wanted, I'm just not happy. I gotta, I gotta run. I gotta roam. You know, I got a heart to roam and she was the only one who was, who was supportive of me. Because she, like I said, she managed a record store. She was a singer. When she was nineteen, she opened for Billie Holiday in this little jazz band that she had at the Monterey Jazz Festival. And I didn't know that for years and I was stoked when she told me.

• 11:08Billy Corgan?

  Have you heard recordings of your mom's?

• 11:10Speaker 02

  No, no. I did some research. I couldn't find anything. But she did say she made a record, but I don't know what happened to it. Anyway, I said, I'm out of here. So she's, my dad didn't know and he was a working class guy. And he worked really hard and keep us together and everything, but I had to leave. So she gave me like fifty bucks. And I left. I took a bus to LA. And I didn't know anyone, didn't know anyone. I had, all I had was what I was wearing. I didn't think about that. I thought, I was so naive.

• 11:40Billy Corgan?

  Tell me about the day you arrived. Like, what is that day like?

• 11:42Speaker 02

  Well, I go, well, I go, um, okay, here I am. Now what? I don't know anybody. And I kind of freaked out a little bit.

• 11:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  But I was so excited. I was so excited. And so I kind of maintained myself. I actually walked in, there was a market on Sunset across from the Whiskey called the Sunbee. And I went in. There I had, I didn't want to spend my fifty bucks and don't get me wrong. I'm not a thief. Okay. But I went into the market and I started eating food and putting the trash down my pants and in my jacket. And, and I just walked out and I said, okay, I ate. I'm good, you know? And I kind of hung around, walked around and I met some girls and like at the record store, there was Licorice Pizza on the corner, cost some whiskey. And everyone used to hang out there. Pat Semer is hanging out there. And so I waited and then I go, I heard about the rainbow.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  I heard about it because I used to collect these magazines, Rock Scene, Cream, Rolling Stone, when they were newspapers. I had boxes of the newspapers, the original ones. And so I said, okay, the rainbow, I'll go there. I mean, I'll meet some people, you know? First thing I see, and I kid you not, I see this guy directing traffic and he's on the street divider that between that side and this side of the Sunset Strip and it's Robert Plant. He's standing there directing traffic. I probably stepped out of his head. Who knows? I don't know him to be much of a stoner, but I know what he did, you know? All the boys did that. And I was like, oh my God, you know? So I went into the rainbow and I met a couple of girls.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  And I remember one, she invited me to her place. So I ended up staying there and it was her and she had a bunch of other friends. So it was all these like rich girls and they're all hanging out at this like mansion. It was right around from the hamburger hamlet. And I remember the hamburger hamlet was like Iggy land because Iggy would stand in front of hamburger hamlet and beg. Cause he was not doing well at that time, beg for drugs, beg for food. And that's how he got arrested later because they found him drugged out of his mind, standing in front of the hamburger hamlet like this on the window. Like somebody feed me or something, you know, it's a crazy story. But that's what happened. Wow. First time I was there and I met all these really cool people, really strange people.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  And everyone was, this was like post glitter glam seventy five. Yeah. And Bowie was, and I was so into Bowie, I was so stupid not to know that he was, he was recording Heterokey. He was doing station to station like at seventy six, seventy, late seventy five, seventy six. I would have gone there. Believe me, I would have gone there.

• 14:14Billy Corgan?

  So your ambitions at that point, you just want to be a musician?

• 14:18Speaker 02

  I wanted to be a singer. Yeah, I wanted to be a singer and sing. I knew I had the chops. I just, no one ever taught me anything.

• 14:24Billy Corgan?

  Had you figured out that you had a good voice or like where were you at in your musical?

• 14:29Speaker 02

  Well, again, it was, I learned early Dylan stuff. I think everyone learns Dylan because you're learning how to play acoustic and the Ezy chords. But I really loved Dylan's surrealist era, sixty five to sixty six. I think the best records he ever made was during those year, that year.

• 14:44Billy Corgan?

  You know, the legend is that he was, you know, he was on tons of amphetamines during that.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, amphetamines, heroin, opium, acid. Yeah, I heard about that. Very inspiring, very inspiring.

• 14:53Billy Corgan?

  Well.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, look what he did, so.

• 14:55Billy Corgan?

  Well, there's the, you know, the through line that we're already talking about is like, it's that, it's that fine line between, let's say, organized chaos and madness.

• 15:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:03Billy Corgan?

  And music, music likes to ride the rail on that.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:06Billy Corgan?

  Depending on your artist in the year.

• 15:08Speaker 02

  And I, and then I discovered Sid Barrett and I thought, okay, I thought this, this guy's amazing, you know? And there weren't a lot out at that time. I think it was Mad Cat Laughs, I think. And I absorbed that record. I still listen to that. But I knew I could sing. I just knew it. And I just had this burning yearning in my heart that this is, I have to do this.

• 15:28Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  I don't care about anything else.

• 15:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:31Speaker 02

  And that's when I just, again, I was so naive, I just split. I said, I'm out. I didn't even think to pack a bag.

• 15:37Billy Corgan?

  So what, because again, information on your musical life at different points is kind of scarce. So I would love to have heard something or seen something, but all I know is there's this period between you showing up in seventy five before you start your band, the one you're known for.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:54Billy Corgan?

  Like, tell me about that period.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 15:56Billy Corgan?

  Before Community FK.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  There was a band, okay, this is a crazy story. So there was a newspaper called The Recycler and you, every musician looked in the classifieds, people looking for musicians, you know?

• 16:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  And so I found this couple and they wanted a singer. So I went, it was in the valley. So I came out to the valley and they had this warehouse thing where the door opens like that and they were in there. It was a drummer and a keyboardist. And so I kind of tried working with them. They were into some weird stuff that's too commercial for me. I just didn't really like, but I had no other choice. So I thought, I'll just see what happens.

• 16:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  And then one day they were, they said, well, let's audition another drummer because this guy wanted to move to bass and let's get a guitarist. So one day these people show up and they happened to be people I knew from where I came from. I don't know if it was fate or if they knew that I was there. I had, to this day, I had no idea. But I knew them. I go, what are you doing here? They're like, what are you doing here? You know, kind of thing?

• 16:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  And so I, I, I knew their talents. I said, I'm out of here. And the three of us just walked out.

• 17:05Billy Corgan?

  You just split, huh?

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. And we went and formed our own band. So the band, the guitar player called it Orange. It had something to do with the British Parliament. I don't know. Orange something. And so we called it Orange. And I thought, well, that's cool. I like that color. And we ended up writing songs together. I wrote all the lyrics and did all the vocals. And we did a demo, but I don't have a copy of it.

• 17:24Billy Corgan?

  Were you playing guitar at that point?

• 17:25Speaker 02

  Just a singer, just a front person. And in one year, we ended up opening for Van Halen. We started, we were second bill of Van Halen everywhere they played. Starwood, Whiskey. We did a lot of that. And then Patti Smith's management, Warto Concern, moved to, from New York to LA. And they picked me up. They, they came to saw the band and they said.

• 17:46Billy Corgan?

  Could you, could you quantify the type of music you were making at this point?

• 17:49Speaker 02

  It was raw power, Stooges, like proto.

• 17:54Billy Corgan?

  And you have no recordings of that?

• 17:55Speaker 02

  Uh, no, I know who does, but I don't, I don't know how to get ahold of them.

• 17:58Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'd love to hear that stuff though. But yeah, we were really good. And I, I was singing my heart off, my balls off and performing and, and having a great time. And I go, this, this is all I've always wanted to do, you know?

• 18:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  I'm Valhalla. This is it, you know?

• 18:15Billy Corgan?

  Did you feel from a aesthetic point of view, it was what you were after? Or is that you're still kind of figuring it out?

• 18:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was still figuring it out because here's the thing about, as you know, being in a band.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  You kind of, you want to kind of have a bonding commonness between you, which is like a dream. You know, it exists sometimes, you know. These guys, I was too intellectual for them. I wrote really good lyrics. They didn't understand, but they dug it and the melodies were good. And I was a good performer. And so we just stuck with it, you know, and I just, I just said, I could do better than this. I can, I want to, because I was really, like, we'd be backstage at the Starwood and I'd have my little blaster with me and I'd have Low on, I'd have the Low album on.

• 19:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:01Speaker 02

  Punk was just coming out, but, and I was really into the Pistols. I mean, when I, I was eating at a restaurant, The Source, and there was a group called Backstage.

• 19:09Billy Corgan?

  Source Family Restaurant.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  Yes, that's it. Cult, you know, and.

• 19:14Billy Corgan?

  Did you ever, sorry, because I had interactions with the Source Family people.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Oh, did you? I always wanted to meet them.

• 19:19Billy Corgan?

  And I jammed with the Yoho at 13 a few times.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  Oh, no way.

• 19:22Billy Corgan?

  Did you ever meet Father Yod in that whole scene?

• 19:24Speaker 02

  I saw him, I never got, I was too intimidated to talk to him.

• 19:27Billy Corgan?

  Big guy, right?

• 19:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, menacing.

• 19:28Billy Corgan?

  Big beard.

• 19:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I go, wow, you know, look at that guy.

• 19:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, at their peak, I think they had 150 people living in a house.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Yes, I heard, yeah. Wow, I would have been one of them, you know.

• 19:37Billy Corgan?

  I think, I think Don Bowles, our mutual compatriot, was around the Source Family back in those days.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  I don't doubt it.

• 19:45Billy Corgan?

  Sounds about right.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's amazing, I love Don. But anyway, so these girls, they had a band called Backstage Pass, you ever heard of them? They're an early, like, like runaways, post runaways.

• 19:56Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 19:57Speaker 02

  None of the members, but that ilk.

• 19:59Billy Corgan?

  Sure, I get it, yeah.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they were sitting, we were sitting on the patio and she was reading the very first Anarchy in UK fanzine with Sue Catwoman on the cover with a striped dress and her style, which was impeccable.

• 20:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I know the.

• 20:12Speaker 02

  But it was like this big of a newspaper and I was like, whoa, you know, and I, can I see that? So, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I looked at it and I went, oh my God, you know, who are these guys? And it was the Pistols. So I went and tried to find everything I could and Lisa Robinson was writing about him for Rock Scene and all that stuff. You could see glimpses of him, it was teasing enough for me, like seeing a picture of Tristan Zara. That was rock and roll to me, you know. And I thought, oh God, these guys are amazing. So, one day, when I was picked up by War Talk Concern, they were going to manage me. This guy named Rory Johnson comes in and he's looking for a record deal, American deal for the Pistols. And I'm like, oh my God, he's one of them, you know, this British guy.

• 20:52Billy Corgan?

  Oh, wow.

• 20:53Speaker 02

  And he had the fanzine and he had a factory sample, not for sale stamped seven inch of Anarchy in the UK, not released yet. And he goes, here, it's like a press kit. He just gave it to me. I took that home and never took it off my turntable.

• 21:09Billy Corgan?

  Talk about the power of intention.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I've had these brushes for my whole life with situations like that. And I thought, oh my God. And so I went home, took my hair, cut it off, just like that, just cut it off.

• 21:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  And, and I just said, I, I'm, I'm in, I'm in. I need to do something else now.

• 21:28Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 21:29Speaker 02

  And so I, I um.

• 21:31Billy Corgan?

  It's like a bolt of lightning.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. And it really happened. And then, I mean, it was amazing. I'll never forget it.

• 21:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  And then I said, okay, this is, this is my next phase. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do something else. I'm gonna try and start a, a band.

• 21:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  My own band this time. And so I would meet, I, I had a girlfriend at the time and I tried to get other guys to play with me. No one would play with me. So she played bass. So she played bass and her name was Cece. And so we had to find a drummer. So we went to the Cathay de Grand every night, looking at punk bands, trying to find somebody. And we saw this drummer, a kid, and he, he walked off stage in the middle of the set. I think Margot Ex-Gogos was playing bass. They had an argument on stage, right during the set. And I'm like, wow, because back in those days, it was punk rock. And who cares? You know, being professional, you know?

• 22:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:18Speaker 02

  So he, he threw his drumsticks at Margot. He walks off his kit, walks out of the club. I followed him. I said, oh, I'm gonna talk to this guy.

• 22:26Billy Corgan?

  That's my drummer.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's him. So I went outside and I just talked to him. I go, man, let's jam. Let's do, let's do something. He goes, okay, give me two weeks. I'm going, I'm going to Tahoe or something like that. So I waited two weeks, didn't show up. And I'm like, oh God. So anyway, that's the beginning of Community FK.

• 22:42Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 22:45Billy Corgan?

  Okay, when you started, because I want to sort of try to put some of these pieces together. When you started, did you think like, okay, I know exactly what I want to do? Or was it like, I want to start something new and then I'll figure it out as I go? Did you have a specific vision?

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did, but it was instinctive too. I just, like I always do, and I had a discussion with my friend in the car on the way here. I do something for the moment and it's hard to shake for me where, okay, I'm gonna do this. And it's gonna sound like that, you know? It never works for me like that.

• 23:17Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  For me, I'm inspired for the moment and then whatever happens at that moment, there it is.

• 23:23Billy Corgan?

  And you're all in on the moment?

• 23:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then you document it and then you move on. And then the next thing doesn't sound at all like that.

• 23:29Billy Corgan?

  I see, I see.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  And the other thing too, was that I didn't have access to studio or anything like that. Back in those days, there was no digital, you know? So you had to remember everything. So to write my songs, I couldn't listen to anybody else's music. I had to focus, if I had a melody or an idea, I'd focus on that all day until I could get to a guitar or get to something and lay the idea down.

• 23:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  And then get a cassette player, you know?

• 23:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because it's still from the point where you first start with Community FK, to your first record, it's still a few years. I'm not crazy about that, right?

• 24:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, we recorded in 82, the first album.

• 24:05Billy Corgan?

  So it's about, there's about three plus years of gestation of the music that you're playing live before you make a record. Am I crazy about that?

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:14Billy Corgan?

  So what was, what did the band sound like? If you could just kind of give it a...

• 24:17Speaker 02

  Well, if you listen to the first album, that was our setlist. That was our very first setlist.

• 24:22Billy Corgan?

  But I'm saying, what did it sound like in the beginning, though?

• 24:24Speaker 02

  Oh, it was...

• 24:25Billy Corgan?

  I'm just because...

• 24:26Speaker 02

  It was noise. Don Bowles did our first gig, Don Bowles did our sound.

• 24:32Speaker 02

  And he was dressed in drag and he had these hot pants, daisy dukes on and fishnets and a wig.

• 24:38Billy Corgan?

  Knowing Don, it just makes me laugh.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's Don though, you know? And he loved it. And...

• 24:44Billy Corgan?

  See, he would be the person who would get it right away.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  And he really, he played the PA like an instrument. And I heard the, I heard the live, he recorded his live. And I know he has it, I know he's got that tape. And I heard it and I thought, wow, we're not that bad. And I was also getting into public image, Keith Levine's guitar style.

• 25:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  So...

• 25:05Billy Corgan?

  So that the angular...

• 25:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and more of the high strings, you know? And he had that metal guitar, it was made of metal and it had that rate and resonance. And so...

• 25:15Speaker 02

  I tried to write a song like Public Image, that single. I tried to write a song like that and I couldn't. So it came out as a song called To Blame. And so it kind of has that guitar style on it, but that was me just interpreting it. I could never copy some person. I could never sound like someone I really liked, you know? I had to have my own voice. So I just said, well, this is how I hear it.

• 25:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, what's striking to me about listening, I was listening this morning to your first album and and it strikes me, it's like, you know, The Beatles has a way of casting a shadow over everything. In a weird kind of way, for better and for worse. I love The Beatles.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:53Billy Corgan?

  I'm sure you do too, but but but but there's no Beatles on that record. If you get the joke, right? You know what I mean? It sounds like you've wandered into this new zip code that's totally your zip code. And I think that's what's shocking. You know what I mean?

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:08Billy Corgan?

  It's I it's for me, it's a parlor game I like to play where I like to like sort of like, how far does this rabbit hole go down? Like with Few with Dada.

• 26:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do that.

• 26:16Billy Corgan?

  If you start with Bowie, you can go all the way back to Zara.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, and Burrows.

• 26:20Billy Corgan?

  But I'm sure you can you can find even before Zara, there's this other guy or another woman. You know, there's always this other person. You're like, who, where's this come?

• 26:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's how I learned a lot of things.

• 26:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So I think it's interesting, your first record, it's like, it feels like, I mean, I hear the influence, but somehow fast passed through your blender filter, wherever you were in your life, it doesn't sound like you're copying anybody and that's where the originality comes in. We all, of course, learn from other people. That's be ridiculous. So we just sort of made up our own music. You know, there's.

• 26:52Speaker 02

  I'm not Harry Parch, you know?

• 26:53Billy Corgan?

  Sure. That's what I'm. So what I'm saying is shocking, I think, in rock and roll, where there are those moments where you're like, wow, this is something totally new. And you obviously aren't even sure if it's new.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm just expressing myself.

• 27:04Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:06Billy Corgan?

  So in that, in that, in that, in the buildup years, getting to that first record, I know I'm kind of jumping around, but in that, so you're playing, like you said, that was our setlist. Okay, so give me a, give me a typical reaction and a typical place you would have played before you put out your first record. You know, there's no record review. There's not, you can't hand somebody something, this is our album. You know what I mean?

• 27:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:28Billy Corgan?

  You're just on stage somewhere, you're opening, you're playing a gig.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:31Billy Corgan?

  It's Wednesday night at wherever, Gazari's, you know what I mean?

• 27:34Speaker 02

  Never played there, thank God.

• 27:35Billy Corgan?

  No, it's a joke.

• 27:35Speaker 02

  I know, I know, I get it. But I'm just saying, I never played there, just to make that clear, you know?

• 27:39Billy Corgan?

  No, I, that's why, that's why it's a joke, you see?

• 27:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:42Billy Corgan?

  What I'm saying is. Give me the atmosphere because I think sometimes it's always easy to look in the rearview mirror and say, well, that kind of worked out. But, but when you're in it, it doesn't feel like it's working out. People are walking out, people are throwing things at you, including other bands. So tell me about that.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Okay. To me, I likened it to, again, you know, Rites of Spring, Sivinsky, The Dadaists, you know, where the hostile reactions, nihilistic interpretation reviews, things like that about what you're doing. People would, okay, what really, really hit the fan was when someone was brave enough to interview us for the LA Times calendar section. They gave us a full page and let us, just like here they are, read about them. They're great. This is, I thought were great. Before that, people would go, I'm not going on after these guys. I don't want these guys on our bill. They can't play. They're horrible. I mean,

• 28:42Speaker 02

  they look weird. What's up with these guys, you know? And I had named the band Community. That's original name. And we couldn't even put that on the marquee in those days. So took the UC out and, you know, there it is. So people started pronouncing it FK. And so that, that happened. Then bookers would say, I'm not going to pay you. You get 15% of zero. And they put a line through the zero. But I don't like, I don't, I don't get it. I don't get it. And

• 29:10Billy Corgan?

  15% of zero?

• 29:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And they just didn't get it. They would, so they refused to pay us. And, and I thought, hmm, this is kind of dadaistic. This is interesting. And I kind of

• 29:22Billy Corgan?

  You saw it as a version of success?

• 29:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I liked, I kind of liked it. It was like when the bully acknowledges you, you know, and they start getting ready to throw a punch, then they stop and they go, hmm, I don't know, something about this guy. He might hurt me, or, or I don't know what he's gonna do, you know? So we just, we just

• 29:41Speaker 02

  Fought back. I mean, uh, one time we were opening for Killing Joke, our very first break gig was I got, I was during those days, uh, I was trying to get a job as a paste-up artist. Uh, now everybody does, you know, Photoshop.

• 29:54Billy Corgan?

  Is that, is, so that's when you would like?

• 29:55Speaker 02

  You'd cut out paste the glue. Yeah. And then you'd do it for a newspaper or something.

• 30:00Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 30:00Speaker 02

  So I was beaten a path and it was August is hot and I came home very disillusioned. I thought, oh, how am I going to get a job doing this? Uh, I even went to Larry Flynt's place in Century City to try to get a job for him and I didn't get the job. So, so I come home and then there's a, a phone call and it's the booker for the Roxy and she goes, her name was Michonne. God bless her. And she goes, um, uh, I got this band Killing Joke playing, uh, the whiskey two nights. Uh, do you, do you want the gig? I went, I was a huge fan. First album I had it. I go, oh my God. First Joy Division album too that came out. I mean, it was such a great, it was like 1972 and all those great albums came out.

• 30:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:44Speaker 02

  Uh, well, this was 1980, you know, 81 and this, all these great records are coming out, The Passage. You ever heard of The Passage?

• 30:50Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. I had that pin drop album. It was unbelievable. Anyway, so I said, well, take opening night, you know, of course. So we got opening night. We had to play two sets. They clear the room in the middle and then you had to play a second set and close the night.

• 31:04Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Well, yeah. So when we got that gig, everyone thought that we didn't deserve it and everyone thought that we paid our way to get the gig. But we, what I didn't know, underlying all of that, we had an audience. I had no idea. Cause we used to get nothing but hostile reactions and sometimes you had to fight somebody just to get your stuff in the car. You know, they're trying to, here's my chance, you know, there he is, you know? And, and, um, you know, and so.

• 31:32Billy Corgan?

  Sorry to laugh. I've had a few of those myself.

• 31:33Speaker 02

  I bet you have. I'm sure, you know, and that it's, it's, it's a sign of, it's a, it's a good, it's a good thing, I think. Anyway, so. That being said, um, we got a lot of bad, like, letters to the editor in that calendar section.

• 31:47Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  Because, like, I remember this one guy, he wrote, "They don't deserve this. They're not musicians." I, I have to show it to you sometime. Um, "We're better than they are," you know, I mean, just, no one could figure it out.

• 31:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  And then we had, again, this underlying audience. One guy got it. Um, his name was Howard Parr. And he, now he does a lot of soundtracks for films and things like that. But he had a club called the On Club. And he was a mod, like, British mod. He was here from England. So he gave, um, you know, Touchables, some of their first gigs, uh, ska bands, things like that. But he dug what we were doing. He kinda like, thought we were kinda Joy Division-ish. Cause we were bass-heavy and drum-heavy, and that's what I wanted. And so, uh, I thought my guitar was just, like, spiced. It wasn't really important. So, he gave us every Wednesday for one month to do whatever we wanted to do. And those days, there were no DJs. So we just brought our record collection to the club, played our favorite tracks.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  Two people show up first night, just two people. And it, we didn't know how to take that. I thought, oh, man, I don't know. So, we played two songs in the band, played two songs, one song for each person, and then we just played records the rest of the night.

• 32:56Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 32:57Speaker 02

  A week later, ten people show up. I go, huh. And then we see people showing, cause I, I wore makeup. I had a long, I had a long Rosicrucian priest coat that I bought at Fiorucci. I, I, there's a lot of things going on between it. I got a job at Fiorucci, and I was working there, and, cause I could look any way I wanted, and I was wearing whiteface and all this stuff. And had a Rosicrucian priest jacket that I adored, cloth buttons that went all the way down. And, uh, so I looked like that. And then kids started showing up, wearing black trench coats and eyeliner. And I said, huh, these are the boys. This is awesome. Things started gelling. And then we started getting a big audience. Then bands wanted to open for us all of a sudden, and then we were headlining, and so things started to gel.

• 33:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  And hostility started to disappear.

• 33:44Billy Corgan?

  Interesting.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:45Billy Corgan?

  Um, looking back now on your first record, um, remind me of the title, cause it's, I have it written here.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  The Vision and the Voice.

• 33:51Billy Corgan?

  Thank you.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  I got that from a Crowley book.

• 33:54Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 33:58Billy Corgan?

  It's a beautiful record and

• 33:59Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 34:00Billy Corgan?

  And I'm sure most of the focus is probably more on the second one because that's where it all really kind of comes together in a way that is probably more easy, easier to discern for the modern ear as far as like what followed. Does it make sense?

• 34:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I understand. Yeah.

• 34:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:14Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 34:15Billy Corgan?

  But

• 34:15Speaker 02

  That's a development, though.

• 34:17Billy Corgan?

  Yes, but and, and, and that's normally where, where I would go. In fact, recently I found a, a vintage press of that, the second album.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  Close one sat on.

• 34:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. But listening to the first album this morning, I was really struck by like,

• 34:34Billy Corgan?

  there was actually, it's hard to explain. There's always that moment of innocence where the thing you're trying just kind of comes together and you're not quite sure of the result. And I was really

• 34:43Speaker 02

  We didn't care.

• 34:44Billy Corgan?

  But I, I was really struck by the, by the, by the, by the freshness or the, or the, how starkly sort of modern it, the first album remains. Does it make, am I, I'm, I'm struggling for words, but because it's hard to define something that's groundbreaking. Maybe that's

• 35:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:01Billy Corgan?

  A compliment I'm trying to pay here.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  Well, I appreciate that.

• 35:03Billy Corgan?

  It's so different. And that's what I mean, the joke about no Beatles. It's like, like songs just kind of start and stop and, and, and it, there's a lack of,

• 35:15Billy Corgan?

  for something that normally gets the pretense, the label of pretension, you know, this kind of goth, death rock, whatever people want to call this genre, uh, which you were part of, you know, initiating into the world. It, it, it, it, it lacks the pretense in a way. You know what I'm saying? I think people later kind of add pretense to something.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Cause they don't, they're trying to understand it.

• 35:36Billy Corgan?

  Yes. But it, it has almost no pretense. And I think that's what's even more shocking.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I understand. No one's ever said that to me.

• 35:45Billy Corgan?

  I hope that comes across as a compliment. I need it.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  It does. And I'm flattered.

• 35:48Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. But tell me your version of it, because you're the author and you're also living it at the same time. So maybe walk me through that for you because

• 35:57Speaker 02

  I'll try.

• 35:58Billy Corgan?

  We, we can only have those watershed moments in our life once.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I know that. And, and being an elder now, um, I get, I get sometimes a little verklempt, you know, when I think about it, but uh.

• 36:11Billy Corgan?

  What, what, what makes you emotional or?

• 36:13Speaker 02

  Uh, what, how beautiful it was and what a time it was, you know, you'll never be repeated. You can't repeat things like that.

• 36:19Billy Corgan?

  That's kind of what I was trying to say in so many, too many words.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  And if you weren't there, you missed it kind of thing.

• 36:23Billy Corgan?

  I'm sad I missed it.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  Oh, I wish you were there.

• 36:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:26Speaker 02

  But uh, it was uh, leave me for the moment, um, uh, and I was cool with that. I thought this is, I don't know what this is, but I love this. I just, I love my life right now and yeah, sure, it's a struggle, but that's not a problem. I'll, I'll get through it, you know, I'll make, I'll make the next day and uh, as long as I can and go to that rehearsal room and, and just see what happens and, and we got a, we got, uh, we had access to a Prophet V and they had just put those out. Um, Sequential Circuits put that out and, and a lot of like Brittany Worrell was using it for Funkadelic and Parliament and we didn't use it like that. We saw it as, well, this is still the manual way and this is see what happens and, and that's what happened. We just let it, we'd program it and preset it and then just let

• 37:11Speaker 02

  it go and then we'd play over it and we just looked like.

• 37:14Billy Corgan?

  Like a drone instrument?

• 37:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, a drone and some people, like we're trying to define our sound. Uh, Terry Atkinson's for the LA Times, he was the music editor and critic. Um, he saw the Killing Joke Show and we were playing songs from the first album and he said, uh, they're gloom and doom, uh, they're drone, drone music. I don't know what this is, but it's awesome. I really dig it and I get it, you know?

• 37:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  So that was a great thing for us and we put that right away in our, our press kit. We thought this is it. And someone else described this as brittle psychedelia, um, intense noise, uh, suppressed sexuality, all kinds of really cool, cool terms. I thought, oh, okay.

• 37:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:55Speaker 02

  So people are starting to pay attention, but I, I thought what we were doing was, was um, unique, but then again, I didn't know what it was. I just knew that I loved it and um, I loved doing it, you know, I thought, well, let's, there's so much to explore.

• 38:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  And there's only three of us.

• 38:12Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  So we didn't want a keyboard player, you know, we thought, well, just let it do its thing.

• 38:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:17Speaker 02

  So that's, that's what that is. I didn't know if that answers your question, but uh.

• 38:20Billy Corgan?

  No, no, I'm, cause it's just, um.

• 38:23Speaker 02

  There's so much going on, uh, in my mind when I think about that because there was so much going on.

• 38:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah. I think it's that.

• 38:31Billy Corgan?

  It's like, um, I, at least in my own life, I find myself ruminating on things that didn't seem important at the time. And it lends a certain sort of sentimental thing of like, you see yourself through the rearview mirror in a form of innocence. You knew what you were doing, but you didn't really understand the depth of what you were doing.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Not at all.

• 38:51Billy Corgan?

  It's like you almost got to be older and maybe take some drugs and go, wow, I was actually on to something.

• 38:56Speaker 02

  But we took drugs, but.

• 38:57Billy Corgan?

  No, I don't mean it like that.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  I know what you mean. I know what you mean, but still.

• 39:00Billy Corgan?

  I guess what I'm saying is it's like, sometimes, uh, it's like one of those old movies where, uh, you know, a stranger stumbles into a new town. And, you know, he's just looking for some gas or something and this thing happens, you know what I mean?

• 39:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:14Billy Corgan?

  And I think those musical moments in our lives are, they're significant because

• 39:20Billy Corgan?

  it's like, uh, I don't know if you have this sensation, but sometimes I think like, gosh, I wish I'd written more songs, taken more pictures, wrote more stuff down.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I reflect like that sometimes. Yeah.

• 39:29Billy Corgan?

  But it's all happening so fast and you're in it and one day you're just, you're eating at Denny's and then you're playing a gig and it's just all going on. You're in your youth and it's just kind of rolling through.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, whatever happens next, you know?

• 39:39Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  Can't wait to see that, you know?

• 39:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So once the, once the record came out and you saw that something was shifting and you were certainly on a musical journey, one that you authored, you're like, you, you feel possessive of the journey that you're having. What was your, what was your plan? Just keep going or do you, do you suddenly think, oh, this is working and now I want to do blank?

• 39:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I, I, I didn't think like that. I, I didn't, we didn't even tour. We just played San Francisco, San Diego, LA. That was it. That was our, our network.

• 40:07Billy Corgan?

  Or did no labels come sniffing around, nothing?

• 40:10Speaker 02

  Not at the time. No, not until, um, Independent Project Records came and they said, we want to, we want to put an album out with you guys.

• 40:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 40:17Speaker 02

  We thought it was crazy, you know? But, but, but we did it and he paid for the studio time. And it's funny, we recorded it at Mystic Sound, which is where Led Zeppelin recorded parts of Led Zeppelin too. I, and we didn't, at that time, it wasn't cool.

• 40:29Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Led Zeppelin, you know? And now I'm a huge, I love Led Zeppelin, you know?

• 40:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 40:34Speaker 02

  But, um, especially when you, like you say, you go down the rabbit hole with Jimmy Page and there's more than meets the man.

• 40:39Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  And that really inspires me and even now, even now I know more, but still, we couldn't tour, but I thought. It doesn't matter because all that matters is the here and now. And that's how I, and that's, and that's something that's maybe a problem for me. Uh, I, I don't, like some guy tells me, I always plan a year ahead. You should try to do that. Like here's what you should, you want to do this year. I go, but I, I can't do that. I, I don't know what I'm going to do in a year.

• 41:05Billy Corgan?

  Well, in, in, in, in talking to our mutual friend, Josh.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, lovely guy.

• 41:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, he's, he's close in our world and Josh Richmond, for those interested.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:16Billy Corgan?

  You know, I, I was trying to, in order to, to talk to you today, I was trying to get to know you as a person a little bit, even though we hadn't met, because I, I certainly want to respectfully kind of approach your, your work. Cause that's what we're here to talk about.

• 41:28Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 41:30Billy Corgan?

  And, uh, and he was saying something, I don't remember what he was saying. And I, and I said, oh, that makes kind of what you're saying about how you're just kind of in the moment. And I said, oh, that makes total sense to me why, and again, I don't know you, right? So I'm like, I'm, I'm telling somebody who knows you, my impression of you, right? And I said, it makes sense to me because he's an OG. And what I mean by that is there are those artists who they are the art. And everybody tries to figure out how to do what they do in a form of imitation. But the artists themselves can't imitate themselves because they are the art. Does that make sense?

• 42:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, it does. Yeah. And I totally agree. I agree.

• 42:09Billy Corgan?

  I've always, I've always been in awe of people like you, and I'm also in awe of you. But, but the reason is because I'm not that type of personality.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Come on.

• 42:18Billy Corgan?

  No, I'm, I'm serious. I'm more of a studier.

• 42:21Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 42:21Billy Corgan?

  Uh, like a, like a, like an architect, you know what I mean? I study a lot of things and I got to put things carefully together to get what I'm after.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 42:29Billy Corgan?

  And everybody around me, everybody around me is like, Jesus, how long is this going to take? And why is this so complicated? And it's like, there's a blueprint in my mind is always better than what I'm able to achieve. But I'm always chasing this kind of blueprint into my mind.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 42:42Billy Corgan?

  But I've always been in awe, and I knew people in Chicago back in the day, uh, like yourself, um, who just seemed to kind of embody the work, like they, they're a work of art. And then their, their music seems to be the soundtrack for the, the work of art that they are.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're expressing it.

• 42:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So I see you in that, in that. I don't know if that that sort of uh it's I don't even know the word for it. It's just like some people just they are the thing. Does that resonate with you?

• 43:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, it does.

• 43:12Billy Corgan?

  Because even everything you're talking about, like whether it's Bowie or Zeppelin, I can hear moments where I think, okay, I can hear the influence, but somehow it still comes out sounding like you.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, because I don't imitate anybody. I like I said, I when I was younger, I tried to emulate Bowie and all that kind of stuff. That just wasn't me. And then eventually it me comes out.

• 43:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 43:34Speaker 02

  Like the vocals.

• 43:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  Uh, I was really into the girl groups of the sixties and I'm on my mom.

• 43:40Billy Corgan?

  Who's tell me, because I'm obsessed with girl groups from the sixties.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  I love the Shangri La's.

• 43:44Billy Corgan?

  The Shangri La's.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  They're like punks, you know?

• 43:47Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 43:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:48Billy Corgan?

  And her voice. Imagine she was singing those songs when she was six, sixteen?

• 43:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean.

• 43:53Billy Corgan?

  What an incredible voice.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:55Billy Corgan?

  She just passed away not too long ago.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  I heard, yeah.

• 43:57Billy Corgan?

  God bless her.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  That bummed me out.

• 43:58Billy Corgan?

  What a voice.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  I played her records that day on her honor and uh but the double tracking also blew my mind. Like when I heard Lennon double tracking in the Beatles records, I thought, oh, man, that's so amazing. Sounds like a third instrument, you know?

• 44:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:11Speaker 02

  And so they did that. Everyone double tracked at one point during those days. The Brillo recording people and all that. But um, I don't know. Uh, I, I, I know that there's not another person like me and it's not an ego trip. It's just um, I, I don't know. I can't really explain.

• 44:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  You know, because like, again, I'm, I'm living this in this body and there's things going on in here. If I had more chances to express what's up in here, I would probably have fifty records out at this point.

• 44:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  Like Psychic TV, I really uh love the fact that they get, they put a record out every day for a while. They put an album out every day. Did you know that?

• 44:52Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know that.

• 44:53Speaker 02

  Twenty-three records.

• 44:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Um, a, a good friend of mine was, was close to Genesis.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I interviewed him once.

• 45:00Billy Corgan?

  Oh, how was that?

• 45:01Speaker 02

  I was amazed. He dosed me. I got dosed on acid.

• 45:04Billy Corgan?

  Started to laugh.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  No, no, it was a, it was a trip. No pun intended.

• 45:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  Uh, but, uh, he was, he was, that's when he was exiled over here and, uh, cause something happened to him in England. And he had a school bus. So he was trying to do the further.

• 45:17Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Uh, Mary Paxton is kind of there. And he was with Paula and, uh, two of the children. And so if a flip side asked me to interview him, I said, yeah, no problem. Then he played the Stardust Ballroom. I went in there. Uh, he wanted to hold my hand. So we held hands and we walked around and we talked. Uh, it was like, we're talking now, but we're holding hands and walking around. And then someone just goes, here, here's, here's some water. And I'm like, oh, okay. Like this. I had to take the water and then about two hours later, there's this feeling in the back of my neck. And I'm going, oh God, I think I know what's going on.

• 45:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  And it started coming on to acid psychedelics.

• 45:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Uh, but I watched the show and we talked about, uh, Burroughs and we talked about Gysen and, um, uh, I could see all of that in what he does, but he was doing the house stuff. He misinterpreted acid house as acid house, you know? And, uh, by which it wasn't, it was something else.

• 46:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  And, but the what, how he interpreted it, I thought, well, that's like me. I interpret something and I don't know if it's misinterpreting it.

• 46:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  But either way, you come out with something original.

• 46:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  Trying to interpret something.

• 46:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  You don't imitate it. You let it inspire you and then you throw it up, you know? And then it comes out as such.

• 46:33Billy Corgan?

  To give you a different take on that. So I, I saw, uh, Psychic TV Genesis band, probably somewhere around eighty seven.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was around those times and they were really peaking.

• 46:42Billy Corgan?

  So I saw him at the Caverie Metro in Chicago and, um, you know, they come shuffling out like they're, like they just woke up from a nap, right?

• 46:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:54Billy Corgan?

  Like no, like no, like waving, no showbiz.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  They're just like.

• 46:57Billy Corgan?

  Just come out like.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 46:59Billy Corgan?

  There were about eleven people on stage.

• 47:01Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 47:02Billy Corgan?

  And I thought, what am I watching? I was bored by it and at the same time I was interested in it, right?

• 47:09Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. It was probably a bad night.

• 47:11Billy Corgan?

  No, I, I think, uh, and, and it was interesting because there's a, the addendum to the story was, I was telling you about, I had a friend who was friends with Genesis. So. At some point, I told her that I'd seen Genesis play live and she started saying, "Oh, I think Genesis would really like you." And this is, I think, when he was, towards the end of his life, he was getting sick. So it wasn't like a thing, you pick up the phone and call him.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 47:36Billy Corgan?

  So we started passing messages through the mutual friend. So Genesis would send a message to me.

• 47:42Speaker 02

  How fun.

• 47:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And then since then, since he's passed, I've spent some time trying to understand his life and his work. But I always go back to that gig, right? Because here's this moment of innocence. I'm just 20 years old, whatever. I'm standing in a club and here's just another band, you know? And I've seen them all and I'm sure you saw them all. You know, like they all came through town and you go to the gig and there'd be 100 people.

• 48:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:06Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 48:06Speaker 02

  It was a good gig too that way, a small audience.

• 48:09Billy Corgan?

  Yes, there was this beautiful moment with alternative music where it wasn't what it became. And I'm not saying it was bad, it paid the bills. But there was this beautiful moment where there really weren't that many punks. There weren't that many goths. You know, there were like six goths in Chicago and I happened to be the 14th of them. You know what I mean? It was one of those. And the originals didn't like me because I was three years younger than them and I showed up in 84 instead of 81.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I did do that.

• 48:34Billy Corgan?

  Right, so I always go back to this gig and I'm saying all this because I think it relates to you as well. There's that moment when you're in the audience and you're watching and you're actually watching something quite brilliant. As a musician, I'm focused on, the guitar is out of tune. Why has he got three stand-up drummers? He can't really sing.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:57Billy Corgan?

  But the revolution of it is, it's the Velvet Underground, it's Iggy Pop, it's Bowie. It's, no, no. This is the soundtrack of something that's happening. But the real revolution is the fact that we're not playing this showbiz game. We're not, we're living a different type of rule.

• 49:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:18Billy Corgan?

  The revolution is, anybody could be up here. That's the great revolution of alternative music.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  That's what I loved about punk, early punk.

• 49:26Billy Corgan?

  Right. So.

• 49:30Billy Corgan?

  It's been beautiful to talk to you about the innocence of it because, you know, I stumbled upon it in around eighty-four, you know, with what was going on out here. And I could talk about that in a second. But from your vantage point, you've started something. And of course, now there's labels and names for it. Back then, it probably didn't have much of a name other than Doom and Gloom.

• 49:52Speaker 02

  Doom and Gloom.

• 49:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay. But looking around the atmosphere, you know, you got, whether it's Christian Death over here, Alien Sex Fiend, or whatever, there's these artists, Specimen.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  I supported them.

• 50:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I played with them.

• 50:08Billy Corgan?

  But what I'm after is, is when you see this start to congeal into something that looks a little bit more organized, or a little bit more, like, there's an audience, you know what I mean? It's not, it's not, it's not a cult of one, it's a cult of a few. But it's like, something is happening. It's not even popular. And you.

• 50:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I saw that happen, yeah.

• 50:29Billy Corgan?

  Right. But you're there, you're like, well, something's happening. Some people are getting signed. Specimen had Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, which was an MTV song. Like, something is happening. What's your impression when it starts to happen?

• 50:41Speaker 02

  It becomes slightly diluted, misinterpreted, like anything else. Look what happened to Punk. And Josh is telling me the other day, you know, how, would you even believe fifty years later, it would be huge? Like, this whole alternative thing would be as huge as it is, you know, as a commodity now and all that. In my day, it wasn't. We were the anti-art. And that's what I was trying to do.

• 51:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  You know, I said, you, you, you're cool. Come on, you know? And that's what we did.

• 51:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 51:13Speaker 02

  And then those people that we said, come on, they came. And the other ones, they off and they went and did whatever they're gonna do. And they got signed, whatever, you know? But the thing about it is, I didn't chase that. I didn't chase, I'm gonna record you. I never thought like that. It happened usually accidentally. I didn't ask Independent Project, here I am, come and sign me. They just said, we want to do a record review.

• 51:38Billy Corgan?

  But were there people in your, in your orbit that were saying, I think you can do more with this? Or?

• 51:43Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 51:44Billy Corgan?

  Let me.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  Get a keyboard player.

• 51:47Billy Corgan?

  Okay, tell me, tell me.

• 51:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, people like, you got a synthesizer up there, why isn't anyone playing it? You know, I said, it's playing itself. It's playing itself.

• 51:55Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 51:55Speaker 02

  They're like, you know, I don't get it. I was like, exactly. You don't get it, you know? We're gonna keep doing this, this way, my way, that's the way it goes.

• 52:03Billy Corgan?

  I mean, you're, this is LA, right? This eighties, there must have been somebody like, if you guys got,

• 52:10Billy Corgan?

  I mean, was there some record guy in your ear? Was there some?

• 52:13Speaker 02

  Oh, I've met them.

• 52:13Billy Corgan?

  Heirists.

• 52:14Speaker 02

  Oh, well, big this, Christmas Records, okay?

• 52:16Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  Uh, during the Closest to Sad Eye era, um, it was before we actually recorded that record. Some guy from Christmas was courting us at the shows and all this stuff. And he's like, ah, come on. So we went up to his office. And this guy was a total douche. And I, I just like, I thought, I'm not gonna sign to this guy. I don't care what, what's going on here. And I didn't hear anything that I wanted to hear. He was just like, ah, we're gonna, you know?

• 52:43Billy Corgan?

  So there was some percolate interest?

• 52:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, there was some of that. Some people were trying to be brave.

• 52:48Billy Corgan?

  Did you see it as?

• 52:49Speaker 02

  Put a foot in, you know?

• 52:50Billy Corgan?

  Sure. Did you see it as a lack, or in hindsight, do you see it as a lack of ambition? Or your just brain was not organized that way? I'm just gonna do art and whatever's gonna come of it's gonna come of it.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  Well, it was either like, like, um, if someone like you comes up and says, you know, I really want, let's do something, you know? I go, well, I would with you, but when someone like that comes up to me, I'm going, no, I'm not gonna do anything with you. I see you, you know?

• 53:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, we had a funny thing once where we were, we were, we were playing a gig. Some guy had flown in from LA to possibly sign us. This would have been eighty-nine, ninety, something like that. And, uh, so I told the band, like, you know, don't say anything stupid.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  Of course, yeah, yeah. Like, you don't do the interviews, I do, you know?

• 53:29Billy Corgan?

  Well, it was one of those things, like, just don't say anything stupid.

• 53:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:32Billy Corgan?

  And this guy was notorious because he, uh, he, I think he, in order to sign Green Day, he dyed his hair green. And he was one of those guys. It was like something on a spinal tap.

• 53:40Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 53:41Billy Corgan?

  Anyway, so the guy comes backstage and it's like, you know, it's like this big. We're all kind of sitting, uh, getting ready to play. And the guy goes to us, uh, we're just talking and somebody said something about doing drugs or something. And he goes, Do you guys do drugs? You know, it was one of those moments where it's like, I didn't want anyone to say anything.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:59Billy Corgan?

  Because, because, you know, it might blow our chance at a record deal. And Jimmy Chamberlain, the drummer of the Pumpkins, goes, does a one-legged duck swim in a circle.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  No way. Are you serious?

• 54:09Billy Corgan?

  And then the guy got freaked out and went away because we quote unquote, did drugs.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 54:13Billy Corgan?

  And we were like, everybody.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Where have you been, bro?

• 54:16Billy Corgan?

  This is the eighties, bro.

• 54:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:19Billy Corgan?

  What are you talking about?

• 54:20Speaker 02

  Well, then again, we would attract all kinds of outsiders to our early shows. We'd play a place called Al's Bar, which is downtown. And there was an art scene there because of the people going to Otis Institute and things like that. And design schools are down there. And so we would play warehouse parties sometimes, but Al's Bar was great because it was so small, such small real estate, but packed with people. I mean, there was more room for people because it's a bar, you know, but it was like a beatnik bar. And it was perfect setting for us back in the early days. And so one time this guy shows up and he's gapped to the gills and he's, he's like, I have something for you. I got something for you. And we're like, who is this guy? I don't know. Let him in. We go to him backstage. He brings this newspaper, like it's, it's like a bushel. And he lays it on the floor. He goes, I made this for you.

• 55:06Speaker 02

  It's all this cocaine. And it was just, I don't know how he, he made it. I, I said, I don't know about that. I don't know if I'm going to take what you made, dude, you know? Maybe a bathtub or something. But we attracted all kinds of strange, really interesting people. I found out he was a painter and he'd been up for two weeks. I thought, I'd like to know this guy, you know? But, but yeah, we had similar things like that happen. And then, um, uh, some guys, record guys, offering us drugs, you know? And we said, nah, I don't know. It's just so show busy.

• 55:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:37Speaker 02

  It's not me.

• 55:39Billy Corgan?

  So Close One Eye is the, is the apocryphal moment where it all congeals. You know, it's, it's still early days of what's now called Goth or Death Rock or whatever.

• 55:50Speaker 02

  It was Goth. That was, that's when Goth happened. Eighty-three, eighty-four.

• 55:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay, right. And you know, there's other things going. You got The Cure over here. You got Susan the Banshees over here. Then of course, some of the other bands that we talked about.

• 56:06Billy Corgan?

  It's a beautiful record for people having to hear the record, so.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  I appreciate that.

• 56:10Billy Corgan?

  I recommend listening to it, but and at the at the moment, we're having the interview. Some of that stuff's not even online.

• 56:16Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 56:17Billy Corgan?

  So hopefully that's.

• 56:18Speaker 02

  I know.

• 56:18Billy Corgan?

  That's gonna get rectified soon, because it should be.

• 56:21Speaker 02

  We're gonna reissue it.

• 56:22Billy Corgan?

  Okay, fantastic. So hopefully by the time this airs, it's it's it's out, but.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  I hope so.

• 56:25Billy Corgan?

  Um, you can find it if you dig around enough. So Close One Sad Eye, right? I got the title right?

• 56:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 56:31Billy Corgan?

  Okay, perfect. So it's Community FK. And and then here comes MTV, like. So everything you've said, it's like you make this video, but you're probably you're not thinking you're gonna end up on MTV.

• 56:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, not at all.

• 56:44Billy Corgan?

  And there you are in MTV. And by the way, being an alternative artist, which we now call alternative. There wasn't even a word back then, but being an outsider artist to be on MTV in 1985 was like shocking.

• 56:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:56Billy Corgan?

  Must have been shocking to you.

• 56:57Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, because I had no idea that was gonna happen. I had no idea. I wasn't against it, mind you.

• 57:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  You know, I'm not getting paid, but it doesn't matter.

• 57:04Billy Corgan?

  What better way to to?

• 57:06Speaker 02

  I thought it was a beautiful video.

• 57:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:08Speaker 02

  You know?

• 57:08Billy Corgan?

  It holds up quite nicely and it's cool.

• 57:10Speaker 02

  I'm glad you feel that.

• 57:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  I'm just saying, though, when we filmed it, Josh was there, of course, he was there. He's been through the whole thread, pardon me, he's been through the whole thread. But when we did that, uh, the I had nothing to do with the storyboard, but I thought, oh, this is interesting. Maybe this person is trying to say something that I've been trying to say.

• 57:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:32Speaker 02

  You know, and so the message was that something was like a funeral, that something had died inside of me.

• 57:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:38Speaker 02

  And the way I see the world and the way.

• 57:40Billy Corgan?

  This is for the song Something Inside Me Has Died.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  Something Inside Me Has Died, yeah, and I just, you know, it's just there's sadness. And so I named the album Close One Sad Eye, because you have to have one eye open at all times. So that's what that means. But and then it's a sad world, it's even sadder now. But I thought she got it. I thought she wrote a storyboard and I thought, well, this is really interesting. It's like a fallen angel or a Nephilim or something like that coming down to tell everybody, you know, you're losing hope, man.

• 58:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 58:10Speaker 02

  You're losing it, you know, kind of thing. I thought, okay.

• 58:12Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  It was gothy. It was got a kind of vibe.

• 58:15Billy Corgan?

  It's a beautiful, I, I, it's, it's amazing.

• 58:18Speaker 02

  That's when goth started to come across, again, eighty one, eighty, eighty one, eighty two, death rock. Okay, that's what we were called and I didn't, I never called myself that. But, um, so then things get a little more shinier, a little more prettier looking. And I'm learning to do song structure just by nature, just to start. I, I didn't say I'm gonna do this chord and do that chord. It's just how it came out, you know, and then working with other individuals was something I had never really thought of doing.

• 58:49Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  So I started working with two other people in the band. The drummer was still my drummer from the first album. He'd been through baptism fire with me and he stayed, stayed with me and I was so proud of that. And, um, so I, the first line up, the girl leaves, the bass player, she leaves. And then I thought, well, I'm gonna break up the band. I, I can't do this anymore then. Then the bass player comes up and goes, no, no, no, you gotta be like the damned. They have a family tree that's like this long. You just, Lenny's played with them. I mean, you know, just keep going, man, you know? So I gave him a chance and we just started doing the next level. And that's where the material came from.

• 59:26Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 59:26Speaker 02

  Was working like that. It's, I had changed.

• 59:29Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 59:30Speaker 02

  I was seeing things a little further.

• 59:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 59:32Speaker 02

  Differently, but I hadn't, didn't plan any of that.

• 59:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. When, uh, when the MTV video happens, is there now real interest from record labels? Or is it still kind of?

• 59:43Speaker 02

  No.

• 59:44Billy Corgan?

  That's really interesting.

• 59:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know. I'm still the, I'm still outside.

• 59:48Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 59:48Speaker 02

  I'd like to reach more people, believe me.

• 59:50Billy Corgan?

  Because?

• 59:51Speaker 02

  At this, especially this, this point in, in the world, there's more people. And because of the, it becoming a commodity, um, people are curious and more interested. And I think they see the beauty of what it was. They, like you say, you know, they, they can't live it. They missed it, but they, they wanna, they wanna feel that.

• 1:00:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:09Speaker 02

  And, and, and because of the way I looked and all that stuff, that helped inspire some fashion, anti-fashion. Now Kardashians dressed like this, you know, I mean, who saw that?

• 1:00:19Billy Corgan?

  Well, I mean, when, when Lady Gaga, who's obviously one of the biggest pop artists of the world, is doing goth.

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  I had no idea. Oh, wow.

• 1:00:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:28Speaker 02

  Huh, well then.

• 1:00:29Billy Corgan?

  She's been working lately, not exclusively, but she works with this, this fashion. I guess they're like a fashion duo called Fecal Matter.

• 1:00:39Speaker 02

  Well, I've seen them on Instagram.

• 1:00:40Billy Corgan?

  But they've been doing Lady Gaga's stage wear.

• 1:00:43Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 1:00:43Billy Corgan?

  So imagine you got the biggest pop star in the world, working with truly outsider fashion people in Fecal Matter. You have this marriage now of like the true outsider culture, meeting the true insider culture. And everybody has opinions on both. You know, obviously insider art world is always going to dominate just by numbers.

• 1:01:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:04Billy Corgan?

  Then there's always going to be an opposition party, just because people like us go, well, I'm not going to do that. I want to do my own deal. But I think it's a sort of a beautiful marriage, but you know, here we are, you know, with forty years after the release of this moment where, you know, you hit this kind of peak apathosis of there's the video, there's you, there's the song. There's this burgeoning kind of form of music, which we now would generally call goth.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:27Billy Corgan?

  And your version of it, not to overly personalize it, but your version of it, the LA version. I think it's a lot, lot more influential than people realize, which is one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you because I think, I think it's easy, easier for me now as a fan of music to look back and I could see the through thread all the way back to you. And then when I get back to you, there's nobody before you.

• 1:01:49Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah, I know that. And that's not an ego trip again.

• 1:01:52Billy Corgan?

  No.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  It's a fact.

• 1:01:54Billy Corgan?

  That's a fact. So that's what I would, I want people not only to hear your music, but also understand your contribution here because the wellspring of that is pretty vast at this point.

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:02:06Billy Corgan?

  Because, because I think it's easier and, and maybe it's because of America's Anglophile issues. We tend to sort of lean into people with British accents and not always understand what we've created in our own thing.

• 1:02:19Speaker 02

  That's an interesting thing to say.

• 1:02:20Billy Corgan?

  Like in my, in my musical life, we were certainly influenced by UK shoegaze.

• 1:02:25Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 1:02:26Billy Corgan?

  But we did it a very American version of it. Which in many ways turned out to be just as influential in a different way. Because we grew up listening to, I don't know, American rock.

• 1:02:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:38Billy Corgan?

  Where people in the, in the UK, and did you ever listen to My Bloody Valentine?

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I just was, it didn't touch me much. I'm not into the shoegaze.

• 1:02:46Billy Corgan?

  But was in, but it was, but is this just?

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know who they are.

• 1:02:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but as a quick aside, Kevin Shields, the guitar player.

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's amazing guitar player.

• 1:02:53Billy Corgan?

  Right, well.

• 1:02:55Speaker 02

  I like what he did with Bobby Gillespie on Primal Scream.

• 1:02:57Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:02:57Speaker 02

  I loved the remixes.

• 1:02:58Billy Corgan?

  Fantastic. So, so my point of telling you this is, just like we're sitting around listening to records. When I got to know Kevin, I couldn't understand why I was more attracted to My Bloody Valentine than say some of the other great UK.

• 1:03:10Speaker 02

  X-Drive and.

• 1:03:11Billy Corgan?

  Sure. Well, Kevin had grown up in America.

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  I didn't know that.

• 1:03:16Billy Corgan?

  Born in England, spent 16 years or so of his life living in like New Jersey. And then it moved, and it moved back. So he, like we, had been influenced by, you know, Rick Derringer. You know, riffy rock.

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, but for me, may I interject?

• 1:03:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, please, yeah.

• 1:03:32Speaker 02

  My influences were all UK rock. I was totally Anglophile. I was, I was a major Anglophile because of the Beatles.

• 1:03:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:40Speaker 02

  And the British Invasion.

• 1:03:41Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:03:41Speaker 02

  I collected all that stuff. My, like I said, my mom managed a record store.

• 1:03:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:45Speaker 02

  And when the releases came out, she would bring the promos home.

• 1:03:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  Like I heard the first Who album that way.

• 1:03:50Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:03:50Speaker 02

  I, I skipped school to, to skip school and I was a child and the Who were on the Today Show. They were broadcasting from England because it was a big deal then.

• 1:04:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:00Speaker 02

  So they played in the park. They did the Kids All Right and I went, oh my God, this is.

• 1:04:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, amazing.

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, to this day.

• 1:04:05Billy Corgan?

  True, true pop art too.

• 1:04:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's total art because Townsend was an artist.

• 1:04:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  That, without him, they would have been nothing. They would have been another like Trogs or something.

• 1:04:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:15Speaker 02

  But that, that was my inspiration was.

• 1:04:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I get it.

• 1:04:17Speaker 02

  UK rock.

• 1:04:18Billy Corgan?

  But, but again.

• 1:04:21Billy Corgan?

  Similar story, it's like, it's, it's, yes, there's an influence, but somehow the American take on it takes it into a different direction.

• 1:04:28Speaker 02

  Development.

• 1:04:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  Interpretation.

• 1:04:31Billy Corgan?

  But just, I'm just riffing here, but do you think there's a sort of, is it something about the American ethos that sort of takes it in a different direction?

• 1:04:38Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 1:04:39Billy Corgan?

  Can you, can you define maybe how that influenced you?

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  Well, again, I, my, you reminded me of things that I hadn't thought of for a while. Other influences, Harry Partt created his own scale, his own instruments. I mean, I thought, that's incredible, you know? I didn't want to do that. I didn't, I wouldn't know where to start, you know, but, but noise as background is something that interests me.

• 1:05:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  So that's why we just let the synthesizer do its thing.

• 1:05:05Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:05:05Speaker 02

  And, and we would really, at random, just do things and we couldn't repeat it, you know? So we, the next show we do now, to repeat it, you sample it and then you play it.

• 1:05:16Billy Corgan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:05:17Speaker 02

  And there it is. It's like, sounds just like the record, you know, kind of thing. But I don't know. I don't, I don't know what to say about that. Go ahead.

• 1:05:25Billy Corgan?

  No, I just, because.

• 1:05:27Speaker 02

  I, I do say, I understand.

• 1:05:28Billy Corgan?

  Please.

• 1:05:28Speaker 02

  American ethos, yeah, yeah. But again, I think it's all interpretation, how you see it.

• 1:05:33Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:05:33Speaker 02

  As an individual, again, it's individualism. You, you interpret that, how could anyone else?

• 1:05:37Billy Corgan?

  Let me give you, let me give you.

• 1:05:39Speaker 02

  How could there be another Billy Corgan? There couldn't be.

• 1:05:41Billy Corgan?

  Sure, but let me give you one take, because I've had a lot of discussions through the years with my British counterparts. They would sometimes come see us play, or we'd talk to them after a gig or something, and they'd say, why, like, you guys are so aggressive, or you guys are so much bolder, because I'd made cultural differences.

• 1:06:02Speaker 02

  Uh huh, I've heard that.

• 1:06:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Like, they'd almost be shocked at, like, the guitar aggression, or.

• 1:06:07Speaker 02

  I've heard that.

• 1:06:08Billy Corgan?

  Like, like, it, like, they, there was always some magical line for them, like, you wouldn't, like, cross a certain line.

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  Uh huh, I've heard that.

• 1:06:15Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, why are you guys so aggro? You know, I've heard that.

• 1:06:18Billy Corgan?

  Like, I remember when I, when I, the first time I met Daniel Ash from Bauhaus and Love and Rockets.

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  I met him, yeah.

• 1:06:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, beautiful guy.

• 1:06:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:26Billy Corgan?

  And, and I was trying to understand his guitar sound, and he was looking at me like. Like, no one's ever asked me that question. And it's like, I'm like, you know, I grew up in the Midwest. It's like, how do you, how do you make that sound? You know what I mean? I wanted to know what amp he was using, what guitar? And he was like, I always just use this shit amp, you know, this Vox amp that I've had. And I, and I go, even like Bauhaus and Love and Rockets. He goes, yeah, it's the same transistor amp that I used all along. And I go, do you take that amp on tour? He goes, yeah, like, why wouldn't I? I go, I go, like, that amp? You take that amp on tour? Like, you don't leave it at home? He's like, no, it's just a stupid amp. But in my mind, the American ethos would be like, oh, my God, you know, it's this precious thing.

• 1:07:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, let me tell you, I have a story for you.

• 1:07:11Billy Corgan?

  Please, yeah.

• 1:07:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, in eighty-four, I was invited to go to England. We were touring with Sex Gang Children, which were a great band. And so I got to see Sex Gang Children every night when we played with them. They were amazing then. And the road manager goes, you gotta come to England, man, you know? We don't want the band, we want you.

• 1:07:31Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:07:32Speaker 02

  So I, I thought about it and there was some turmoil in the band between members going on. And I was kind of getting unhappy and I was frustrated and they didn't know things that I knew that was going on. And so it really hurt me. And so I thought, you know what, these guys, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to England for a little while. So I went to Northampton, where Bauhaus is from. And this guy discovered Bauhaus. I did not know that. He took their very first video at the White Elephant Pub. And he showed it to me, it's all VHS days. And so he showed it to me, he had all these, these films of Bauhaus in the early days that he shot himself in black and white. I'm like, oh, my God, you know? And so one night, I'm living with, with him, his family at this house in Northampton.

• 1:08:16Speaker 02

  And it's raining and all this stuff. It's beautiful English weather, I love the rain. And there's a knock at the door and it's Kevin Haskins and Danny.

• 1:08:26Speaker 02

  And so they come in, they go, we want to meet your friend.

• 1:08:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  So I go, oh, cool, you know? And so they come in.

• 1:08:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:35Speaker 02

  And we shake hands, we do all those things. And then he goes, um, I saw you, I heard you have this guitar. Can I see your guitar? And, and I thought, oh, God, he doesn't want to meet me, he doesn't want to see my guitar. So I, I bring out my, I had a Fender sixty five twelve original stock with the, the headstock that goes bent like this kind of beautiful guitar.

• 1:08:55Billy Corgan?

  I was gonna ask you that question because I want to know what you play.

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what I played for years and I had it since I was nineteen. And, um, so I show it to him and he's, can I play it? Yeah, yeah. So he picks it up, he plays it. He goes, oh, this is beautiful, great action, I love this guitar. He pulls out a wad of money and goes, I'd love to buy this, will you please sell us your guitar? I said, no, I'm not gonna sell you my guitar. I don't care who you are, you know, I told him this, you know, and he inspected me for it. You know, I go, okay, you know? And I said, what are you doing? Because, well, we're starting a new band called Love and Rockets, that's the name we have right now.

• 1:09:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  And I said, well, okay. So he tried to buy my guitar off me, that guy. And I said, no way, you know?

• 1:09:36Billy Corgan?

  See.

• 1:09:36Speaker 02

  So eventually, though, it was stolen, so.

• 1:09:38Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 1:09:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, some junky girl.

• 1:09:41Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 1:09:41Speaker 02

  Found out where my guitar was and then I come looking for it and it's gone.

• 1:09:44Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 1:09:45Speaker 02

  To this day, I, I don't know where that guitar is.

• 1:09:47Billy Corgan?

  I know if you heard the story, I had a guitar stolen that was gone for twenty seven years and it came, it resurfaced.

• 1:09:52Speaker 02

  I heard about that. What, what did you do? What'd you think?

• 1:09:55Billy Corgan?

  It was like a dream, I couldn't, and the guy got it for me and he didn't want anything.

• 1:10:00Speaker 02

  Well, how did he find it?

• 1:10:02Billy Corgan?

  He, he gave me a story and, and, and I don't, let's just say I choose to believe his story, but I don't know if his story's true.

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:08Billy Corgan?

  I'm in, forever in the guy's debt because he's a beautiful man and he gave me my guitar back.

• 1:10:12Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 1:10:12Billy Corgan?

  It was like finding a sword or something, you know, it was like my original.

• 1:10:15Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. This is made for me by a samurai.

• 1:10:19Billy Corgan?

  It was like, there's my, there's my, like, if you, if you said, pick one guitar to bury you with, that would be the guitar.

• 1:10:25Speaker 02

  That would have been my guitar.

• 1:10:27Billy Corgan?

  That's the one in my mind, that's like my guitar.

• 1:10:30Speaker 02

  Got it.

• 1:10:30Billy Corgan?

  All I love all the other ones, but that's my guitar, right?

• 1:10:32Speaker 02

  I did, yeah.

• 1:10:33Billy Corgan?

  So when you say that it like hurts my heart and I hope that that day will come.

• 1:10:37Speaker 02

  I hope so. I hope you're right, my friend. I hope so, man.

• 1:10:39Billy Corgan?

  God bless. Well, I'll look out there for it.

• 1:10:42Speaker 02

  Please send me some vibes.

• 1:10:42Billy Corgan?

  What was the color? What was the color?

• 1:10:43Speaker 02

  It was sunburst.

• 1:10:45Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:10:45Speaker 02

  Beautiful. It's the same one that Johnny Winter used at Woodstock, the same one Townsend used on Tommy. I've seen the photos of these guys playing exact guitar.

• 1:10:52Billy Corgan?

  Sixty five.

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  Sixty five, yeah.

• 1:10:53Billy Corgan?

  I'm putting that in my brain.

• 1:10:53Speaker 02

  And it was all, I didn't do anything to it. I didn't know to do anything to it, you know? So I just played it the way it was and amazing tone.

• 1:11:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, I love that sound. That's why I was the nerd and you wanted to ask.

• 1:11:03Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 1:11:05Billy Corgan?

  Just a quick, a few other things and then I want to sort of talk about the present.

• 1:11:11Billy Corgan?

  First time I heard Christian Death, I was friends with this kid. He was an early, early kind of death rock kid. Dressed amazingly, always wore suits. At 14 years old, this kid just happened to be listening all this stuff out LA. And I remember being in his bedroom hearing Christian Death and it was like that thing of like.

• 1:11:29Speaker 02

  First album.

• 1:11:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:30Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:31Billy Corgan?

  You know.

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  Classic.

• 1:11:32Billy Corgan?

  And you're just like, what is, what is this, you know?

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  Roz, man. I miss that guy.

• 1:11:38Billy Corgan?

  Talk, talk a little bit about Roz because Roz is one of those guys who gets a little lost in history. I mean, people know, if you know music, you know Roz, but I'm saying, tell people don't know about Christian, early Christian Death and Roz. Please talk about him.

• 1:11:49Speaker 02

  Well, here's the funny thing. We never played the same shows together. We were too proud. And one, and one, one weekend Josh was there. We were all in San Francisco. We played amazing show. We, I remember driving up to this, we were looking for the club that we were playing at. And we drove up and there's this line going all the way around the block. And we're like, hmm, what is going on there? And then we parked and we go, dude, you're playing there. I'm like, what? The place was packed. I'm like, wow. We had to walk through the crowd to get to the stage. And the next day after the show, we're looking for somewhere to eat. On the opposite side of the street, like a black caterpillar, Roz and his friends and his entourage. We're going the opposite direction and we look at each other. Hey, I had no idea he was in town. He had no idea I was in town.

• 1:12:34Speaker 02

  If we had known, we would have played the same show, you know? That would have been amazing.

• 1:12:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:38Speaker 02

  But. Roz, Roz and I, he was really shy and we weren't really friends at first. Again, it's two artists, entry artists, doing our own thing, our own sound, all that stuff. You know, and he didn't plan anything. I didn't plan anything. It just was happening. But we respected each other from afar and I heard that through the grapevine, like you probably had in your time. People go, yeah, Billy's really great. I mean, Patrick's really great. Roz is awesome, you know? And it's cool to be liked by your peers.

• 1:13:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:06Speaker 02

  So we later became friends in the nineties. It took that long for us to become friends. And so we started hanging out and he was so sensitive and so shy and very funny. Very funny guy, very smart, a great artist. He did, because of the Dotists, I really got into collage. And you know, Sophie Talber and Hannah Hawk, you know, there were some of my inspirations. And he, his too. I had no idea. And he had some beautiful pieces and he wanted to give me one. I couldn't take it. So, you know, he said, well, when you wanted, you can have it. But the way that he did his thing was incredible because he would write the music in his head and he would say it to people.

• 1:13:50Speaker 02

  This is what I, I had discovered.

• 1:13:52Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:13:53Speaker 02

  Someone probably tell me that wasn't the way it was because I'm sure there are a lot of instances where it wasn't that way.

• 1:13:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:58Speaker 02

  But there were some ways where he would do that, like Captain Beefheart used to do that.

• 1:14:01Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:14:02Speaker 02

  Trout Mask was told to all the musicians, they, they didn't contribute anything. It was all him, his ideas, Captain Beefheart's ideas for Trout Mask's replica.

• 1:14:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:12Speaker 02

  That's how that record was made. You know, I thought, wow, so this is another inspiration. But finally, later on, something started to happen with him. I could see he wasn't very happy and such things were going on. His career was, was weird. So one Christmas day, I think it was on Christmas, he got kicked out of his house. He was with Eva O at the time, you know, Eva O of the Superheroines. And they were married for a while and so they needed to place the crash. I said, well, you can stay at my flat, you know? So he goes, well, I can't pay you any rent or anything. I said, well, hell, you don't have to. He goes, I'll give you a tattoo. I said, well, how's Williams gonna give me a tattoo? Okay, you know, so he gave me a jailhouse tattoo with Indian ink and a, a needle pen. Just did a tattoo on me. I probably still have it.

• 1:14:58Speaker 02

  But people always want to know about it. They want to talk about it. And so that gives me a chance to tell Ross's story a little bit. And I loved him. I thought he was a great man, a great.

• 1:15:05Billy Corgan?

  I'm so happy to hear that because I saw Roz play once. It was when he was out of Christian Death.

• 1:15:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:11Billy Corgan?

  He come, he'd come to.

• 1:15:12Speaker 02

  Did you like that work, solo stuff?

• 1:15:14Billy Corgan?

  Uh, you know, I, to be honest, I haven't spent as much time listening to it as I, as I should. I can be a little slow sometimes, but.

• 1:15:22Speaker 02

  You're busy.

• 1:15:23Billy Corgan?

  It's not that. It's just, it's almost like a form of stubbornness.

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:15:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:28Speaker 02

  Why?

• 1:15:29Billy Corgan?

  That's, that's a fantastic question.

• 1:15:34Billy Corgan?

  I think sometimes it's a sense of like,

• 1:15:38Billy Corgan?

  I've gotten enough from you. And I'm, I don't want to be, I don't want to get more influenced by it. I went back.

• 1:15:45Speaker 02

  Uh huh. Okay.

• 1:15:46Billy Corgan?

  It's kind of like, it's not so much like that I got what I needed. It's like, it's almost like I don't want to get too close to that sun.

• 1:15:55Speaker 02

  I understand. I'm the same way. I'm the same. I remember I told you before, back in the pre-digital days, I couldn't listen to any records if I had a song idea.

• 1:16:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:03Speaker 02

  I had to like.

• 1:16:04Billy Corgan?

  It's, it's, if you think about it, it's actually a reverse form of respect, right? It's like, it's like, I don't want to fall under your thrall.

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  Understood.

• 1:16:11Billy Corgan?

  Cause I get what makes you who you are and, and maybe the rest of the world doesn't understand, but I understand.

• 1:16:21Billy Corgan?

  Cause I, I love to talk with musicians about who we really know is like the real deal, you know, like the, the, the real gangsters.

• 1:16:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I've met a few.

• 1:16:32Billy Corgan?

  Right. And, uh, and we all sit backstage at some point, we go, well, that one's a fraud and that one's a pretender. But that mother.

• 1:16:40Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 1:16:40Billy Corgan?

  And Roz was one of those.

• 1:16:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's one of those mother.

• 1:16:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:43Speaker 02

  Doubt about it.

• 1:16:44Billy Corgan?

  So just to tell you the story, because it'll make you laugh, I hope.

• 1:16:48Billy Corgan?

  So it's, it's some club and it's like, you know, I go in, I got my ticket, whatever. And it's like, there's like 80 people there. So my heart breaks already because I, I'm aware that Roz is a significant artist, but like it's 80 people in some club in Chicago.

• 1:17:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, he deserved better.

• 1:17:04Billy Corgan?

  Absolutely. So, um, there's Roz's horn honking.

• 1:17:10Speaker 02

  He's saying, hey, man, I'm here.

• 1:17:12Billy Corgan?

  God bless.

• 1:17:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:13Billy Corgan?

  Um, anyway, so he's, he's, he's, you know, he's, he, I mean, to, to those who don't know Roz Williams, please look up Roz Williams music and life, but.

• 1:17:26Billy Corgan?

  It's weird when you see somebody in a club with 80 people and you're like, why isn't this guy playing in an arena? His charisma and his magnetism was like bigger than the room.

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 1:17:37Billy Corgan?

  Like you go like, that guy's a star. Why is he playing in the club?

• 1:17:41Speaker 02

  I totally get it, man.

• 1:17:42Billy Corgan?

  Okay, right. So, so I'm, I'm, I'm watching the shows. Steve's in, his backing band's kind of okay. And, and he goes, I can't do a good imitation. He goes, I want to play a song by David Bowie. From when he was good. This is dodo.

• 1:17:59Speaker 02

  Well, I love that song.

• 1:18:00Billy Corgan?

  And they did dodo. But I'll never forget the introduction. I want to play a song by David Bowie when he was good.

• 1:18:07Speaker 02

  Well, I, I understand though, because I've always thought that Diamond Dogs was like a first death rock record. It was very apocalyptic.

• 1:18:14Billy Corgan?

  That's a very interesting point.

• 1:18:15Speaker 02

  I've always thought that. I thought, well, why doesn't anyone say that about this record?

• 1:18:19Billy Corgan?

  Now, so you're gonna send me back to that record?

• 1:18:20Speaker 02

  It's dark, it's apocalyptic.

• 1:18:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:22Speaker 02

  It's Barosian, you know, uh, it's, it's a perfect record. And he did most of the things himself.

• 1:18:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:28Speaker 02

  Cause he had just split from the spiders.

• 1:18:29Billy Corgan?

  And even the playing the guitar and.

• 1:18:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's doing the guitar. He hired Alan Parker to do the funky stuff for, uh, 1984.

• 1:18:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:35Speaker 02

  Cause that was the, the time, it was the spice.

• 1:18:38Billy Corgan?

  Have you ever met Mike Carson, Bowie's pianist?

• 1:18:39Speaker 02

  No, I, I wrote him once, uh, when I was, uh, working with Martin Atkins. And I wanted him to play on one of my tracks. And he goes, well, $800, I'll do it. They wouldn't, he wouldn't give him the money.

• 1:18:51Billy Corgan?

  So, uh, this is, who knows when this airs, but Mike's 80th birthday from when we're taping is coming up soon.

• 1:18:58Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:18:59Billy Corgan?

  And I think it's somewhere in January and I'm gonna go play, so.

• 1:19:01Speaker 02

  No way.

• 1:19:02Billy Corgan?

  Maybe if you want to come in, I'll introduce you to Mike.

• 1:19:03Speaker 02

  I would love to.

• 1:19:04Billy Corgan?

  Mike's amazing.

• 1:19:05Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:19:06Billy Corgan?

  I met Mike when he was touring with Bowie in the nineties and, and we've been friends and Mike played with The Pumpkins for a while and.

• 1:19:11Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:19:12Billy Corgan?

  Mike is unbelievable.

• 1:19:13Speaker 02

  Wow, I know he was a Scientologist for a while.

• 1:19:15Billy Corgan?

  He was, he got out, but, um, you know, uh, he was playing, do you know Annette Peacock?

• 1:19:20Speaker 02

  Of course, I have her first album.

• 1:19:21Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so Mike played on that record.

• 1:19:23Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:19:24Billy Corgan?

  And that's how Bowie found Mike and said, I want that.

• 1:19:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, she was very experimental.

• 1:19:28Billy Corgan?

  And Bowie also lifted a lot from Annette Peacock.

• 1:19:30Speaker 02

  I believe it.

• 1:19:31Billy Corgan?

  If anybody wants to go down that rabbit hole, right?

• 1:19:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:34Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 1:19:34Speaker 02

  Well, I never thought of that.

• 1:19:35Billy Corgan?

  So he was like, oh, I'll take Mike. So then suddenly, suddenly Mike's playing in the spiders from Mars.

• 1:19:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I remember all of that.

• 1:19:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:43Speaker 02

  I used to read the magazines and stuff and collect all the records.

• 1:19:46Billy Corgan?

  But Mike's, Mike's eighty years, about to turn eighty and

• 1:19:49Speaker 02

  Oh, God bless him.

• 1:19:49Billy Corgan?

  His musicality is completely intact.

• 1:19:52Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:19:52Billy Corgan?

  And

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  He's still

• 1:19:53Billy Corgan?

  And he's, you know, he's a total improvisational penis. I don't know if you know that about him.

• 1:19:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do.

• 1:19:58Billy Corgan?

  He can't, he literally can't play the same thing twice. I mean, he can sight read something, but if you just say, play that song again, he can't, he, he's so, he's lived in that brain so long, he literally can't play the same.

• 1:20:09Speaker 02

  I understand. I totally get that.

• 1:20:11Billy Corgan?

  And, and him and David, he played, he's the musician that played the most with David.

• 1:20:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:15Billy Corgan?

  And their connection was very, very deep. And that musical connection and what it, what it might bring, that chaos.

• 1:20:23Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 1:20:23Billy Corgan?

  Where literally he'd throw, he'd throw at a singer of David's level, here's a little Gershwin, here's a little Liberace, here's a little bit of Beethoven.

• 1:20:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:30Billy Corgan?

  And David could surf that wave with Mike. It's a beautiful story. So I, I would love to introduce you to Mike.

• 1:20:35Speaker 02

  Oh, I'd love to meet him.

• 1:20:36Billy Corgan?

  Um, okay. Let's, let's bring this beautiful story to a close, not because there isn't more, because my point here would be, if I have any self-interest, would be to introduce you to people who don't know your work. So that your future continues to be vibrant because I know you're still making music.

• 1:20:53Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:20:54Billy Corgan?

  So, um, two questions. Where's your brain at now for, uh, performance? How you fit into this new crazy world that we're in, you know, let's call it the digital sphere. You know, how do you, how do you interrelate with that?

• 1:21:08Speaker 02

  Well, uh, sure. I have my own studio at home. Um, I have a box kind of thing. Um, I can't really afford a big studio and all that stuff, but I'm okay with that. I, I like the minimalist of it, the minimalism of it. I, um, I like it and I don't like it. Um, I'm, I'm more of an analog type person. If I had more opportunity to go into a studio and do two inch tape, I would do that tomorrow. I mean, uh, yeah, one of the things I'd love to do is just go in the studio because I have all these ideas and I've got, uh, stuff in the cans. And just throw it out there as a basic and then. At that moment, just do whatever happens. I don't have that opportunity, but everyone else does. And that's why I think music sucks now.

• 1:21:53Speaker 02

  A lot of it sucks to me. I'm not, you know, whatever. Keith, you don't like that? I'm serious. I really feel that way.

• 1:21:59Billy Corgan?

  Once a punk, always a punk.

• 1:22:00Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know. I'm not trying to be a punk. That's just the way I feel.

• 1:22:03Billy Corgan?

  I'm just laughing with you.

• 1:22:04Speaker 02

  Well, listen to, listen to what's going on.

• 1:22:06Billy Corgan?

  I think we all have. I can't speak for everybody, but there seems to be a-

• 1:22:10Speaker 02

  I don't mean that.

• 1:22:11Billy Corgan?

  No, but I'm saying there seems to be a general consensus that something has happened in music in the digital age that's not always good for music. Maybe that's a nice way to put it.

• 1:22:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Well, okay, nicely. There's some people still trying to do what we do, what I do, what you do. God bless them, and I'm for them. But what gets to the top and to your face is sucks. Like, you still have Iggy, and he did his thing. Okay, I get it. Now he's doing, you know, he's repeating it for people that missed it. I get that. God bless him. But there's gotta be another one somewhere. Someone like that in the Midwest, maybe somewhere, doing his thing to 80 people, maybe less, who's got something to say.

• 1:22:49Billy Corgan?

  There's always gonna be that person.

• 1:22:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Well, I champion those people. I haven't seen him yet, and I haven't seen anyone who does what we're doing like that. But my thing is to continue doing this because it's all I know how to do.

• 1:23:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:03Speaker 02

  I'm not a shoe salesman, you know? I'm a hairstylist. I mean, this is what I do. So I'm gonna just keep doing the way, any way I can. Any way I can, any noise it fits. I'm just gonna keep doing it.

• 1:23:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:15Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:23:15Billy Corgan?

  And the other question I had-

• 1:23:17Speaker 02

  No matter what time it is, what era it is.

• 1:23:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, I think that's, if the digital- The one thing I've noticed, and see if you've noticed it too. And I'm trying to give it a visual image, but it- I feel like we're in this new era where music is almost kind of feeding back into itself. Maybe because in the old days, you'd have to go to the record store and get the record, or your cousin would have the record. But now, because of, anybody can access anything, it's almost like you see kids being influenced by stuff from so many different eras. Like, it's not linear like it used to be.

• 1:23:50Speaker 02

  Hmm, I understand, yeah.

• 1:23:52Billy Corgan?

  So I think that if there's any advantage, it's like, um, like-

• 1:23:59Billy Corgan?

  Currently, right now, my audience, or the band's audience, is half of its under thirty-five.

• 1:24:06Billy Corgan?

  So they're finding us somehow.

• 1:24:08Speaker 02

  How do you know that?

• 1:24:08Billy Corgan?

  Because you get the statistics from the streaming services.

• 1:24:11Speaker 02

  I've never thought about statistics.

• 1:24:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, you can literally get the statistics. Now, I don't want to look at them because I don't want to think about that stuff. But somebody writes me an email and says, can you believe this? And it's like, and I tell them, I don't want to hear any bad news. So they only reach out if they got something good to say. And I thought, well, now that's an interesting thing. Because for many years, I saw where the audience was just aging, as you would expect. And all of a sudden, boom, there's just all these young people.

• 1:24:34Speaker 02

  What about in the nineties for you, though? I mean, do you know the stats about that, what your audience was in the nineties?

• 1:24:39Billy Corgan?

  Uh, well, I could.

• 1:24:41Speaker 02

  When you were making your early records.

• 1:24:43Billy Corgan?

  Empirically, I mean, just from looking at it, it was, you know, let's say, at the band's peak in the mid-nineties, you're probably looking at fourteen to twenty-five would have been eighty percent of the audience. And you got some people who were like older or your generation-ish would come around because they just, they like, you know, there are people as they age, they still want to hear new music.

• 1:25:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I do too, you know, don't get me wrong.

• 1:25:07Billy Corgan?

  No, no, I don't mean it like that. I'm saying is, it's just, it was a natural extension, but it was very heavily youth-focused at the time, driven by MTV.

• 1:25:15Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:25:15Billy Corgan?

  And what became alternative radio. One interesting statistic, in nineteen ninety-one, when our first album came out, there were only seven alternative stations in America. And by the peak of the nineties, I think it was over a hundred and sixty, a hundred and eighty alternative stations.

• 1:25:29Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:25:30Billy Corgan?

  Just in that short amount of time, they literally had to build a new infrastructure to take advantage of rock.

• 1:25:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:36Billy Corgan?

  Sorry, alternative rock or whatever going mainstream.

• 1:25:39Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:40Billy Corgan?

  So, um, last thing I want to ask you, and I so appreciate you talking to me.

• 1:25:44Speaker 02

  David's mutual.

• 1:25:47Billy Corgan?

  Thank you.

• 1:25:50Billy Corgan?

  If you could define your, your, your production style, because I feel, you know, because I've listened to, you know, recent records as well. And it's, it strikes me that you have a particular approach to production. Could she, could you quantify that for me?

• 1:26:04Speaker 02

  It's not very good. It could be better.

• 1:26:07Billy Corgan?

  Actually, I would argue, um, I would say technically, yeah, I could, I could, as, as a nerd, I can certainly see where, you know, this could have been a better recorded, but, but, but somehow I think your, your foundational base, the data base, uh, it also lends opportunities that someone that's maybe more organized in that, in that realm would never do, because I would sort of overthink it. So I, do you do stuff fast? Or like, is there a production aesthetic? I know that's a weird way to put it, but I, but I also think that's part of your story.

• 1:26:38Speaker 02

  Well, here's the thing. Um, I was asked recently to co-write a song with a band called Beauty and Chaos. And they're like a studio band. And the last record they made, they had different vocalists contribute, uh, co-compositions for this one album. And so when they sent me this instrumental, I, with my minimal out of the box recording studio, um, I laid down all the vocals, I wrote the lyrics, I did the melodies. Um, and, uh, I did one pass and they said, okay, okay, almost there. Did a second pass and it was perfect. And, um, I did that just on my own and, and didn't think about production value or anything like that. And it came out great. So again, it's that thing where

• 1:27:23Speaker 02

  sometimes, uh, it's a happenstance. Um, oh, it came out great. Oh, this one didn't come out so good. I wonder why, you know? Maybe I didn't pay enough attention to it. Or maybe I wasn't thinking about, uh, I wanted to do this thing that Bowie did on an album on My Voice or something like that. I think like that. I think, well, that's a great technique. Now, I'm not gonna steal it, but I'd sure like to figure out how to do that. Like phasing. I wish I could do phasing. I love that sound.

• 1:27:45Billy Corgan?

  They have, they have, well, you know, you could do programs in the box now. I don't know if you know about that.

• 1:27:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:49Billy Corgan?

  If you're, if you're against the box, but.

• 1:27:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would know. I would know.

• 1:27:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, they, they have, literally have every program now.

• 1:27:54Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:27:54Billy Corgan?

  They have, they have, they have, uh, This is how crazy it's gotten. You can, you can, if you do plugins on, in say Pro Tools, you can get not only the, the, the reverb chambers that the Beatles used, you can move the mics around in the room. So they have Capitol Records, so you can get the Beach Boys.

• 1:28:12Speaker 02

  Oh wow, Abbey Road.

• 1:28:14Billy Corgan?

  But you can get all the reverbs, all the effects that they used. You can get them all.

• 1:28:18Speaker 02

  Wow, that's amazing.

• 1:28:18Billy Corgan?

  And they're, they're, they're digital copies, obviously, but they're digital copies of all the effects that they use.

• 1:28:23Speaker 02

  Oh, I'd like to see that.

• 1:28:24Billy Corgan?

  So you can get Lennon's vocal doubling thing, the ADT.

• 1:28:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:27Billy Corgan?

  They have, there's a program and it sounds just like it. I mean, is it exactly 100%? No, but it's probably 94%. So you have access to all this new technology.

• 1:28:37Speaker 02

  See, the-

• 1:28:37Billy Corgan?

  For what blew, sorry, what blew my mind was using some of the Abbey Road and some of the Capitol Records reverbs. Cause I was like, well, there's the God Only Knows reverb. I've been looking for that reverb my whole life and there it is. Punch a button and there it is.

• 1:28:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

• 1:28:50Billy Corgan?

  So you're like-

• 1:28:50Speaker 02

  Magic.

• 1:28:51Billy Corgan?

  Okay, that's the magical stuff. So for me, that's what I like about the digital realm. But, but I also love that there's a part of you that doesn't get stuck in process.

• 1:29:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't.

• 1:29:02Billy Corgan?

  But I like that because I, that's, see, I'm saying, I wish I was more like that.

• 1:29:06Speaker 02

  Well, you're, like you said, you're an architect. You think a lot.

• 1:29:09Billy Corgan?

  A nerd, I call it.

• 1:29:10Speaker 02

  Well, that's fine. You know, that's fine. Some of my friends are nerds, but, uh, but I, I'm more, uh, I'm more naked. I'm more, um, minimal. I, I, I don't know why that is. It's just the way I am and I just like it simple. I just like it simple. Uh, four tracks, you can just give me four tracks and I'll do all kinds of things to that.

• 1:29:27Billy Corgan?

  I love it.

• 1:29:28Speaker 02

  So, I don't know. But I'm, I'm fine with the new world and fine with the digital and all that stuff. I just miss the analog experience. It's more feeling and it's more, it's the more magical element. It's not so sterile. It's kind of sterile to me.

• 1:29:41Billy Corgan?

  I get it. I get it.

• 1:29:42Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:29:43Billy Corgan?

  Thank you.

• 1:29:44Speaker 02

  Thank you, sir. Appreciate you.